Open mike 31/05/2023

60 comments on “Open mike 31/05/2023 ”

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1. tWiggle 1

   31 May 2023 at 7:01 am

   "Moral outsourcing, she says, applies the logic of sentience and choice to AI, allowing technologists to effectively reallocate responsibility for the products they build onto the products themselves – technical advancement becomes predestined growth, and bias becomes intractable."

   https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/may/29/rumman-chowdhury-interview-artificial-intelligence-accountability
   • Patricia Bremner 1.1

     31 May 2023 at 7:58 am

     Thanks tWiggle, that is thought provoking stuff of the horror kind.

     For every discovery of a breakthrough by AI, there will be equal conundrums. imo.

     Bringing humanity to situations is going to become fraught.
2. PsyclingLeft.Always 2

   31 May 2023 at 8:19 am

   mercenary "no reason" Mitchell ! :

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/490953/no-reason-nz-shouldn-t-be-safest-country-in-world-national

   And a wee bit earlier…Nat mercenary and MIA Mitchell on crime.

   (2017…. and acknowledgement to Mac1 ! )

   https://www.facebook.com/100083421516944/videos/666399771648489/
   • Peter 2.1

     31 May 2023 at 10:11 am

     Mark Mitchell is a blithering idiot. Or maybe he is a victim in that the intelligent stuff he said was edited out of the RNZ piece.

     Most crime is the result of social and economic circumstances. Mitchell’s big answer? Boot camp. Jesus wept, drongos rule.
     • PsyclingLeft.Always 2.1.1

       31 May 2023 at 1:18 pm

       Grant Robertson said that kind of approach had been tried before and did not work.

       "It's a policy that's been proven to fail in the past and all it will deliver is fitter, faster criminals," he said.

       "Not only is it me saying that, Sir Peter Gluckman who was the chief science advisor to John Key has said that boot camps don't work. They didn't work in the United Kingdom, they didn't work in New Zealand. National is just reheating failed policies."

       Golriz Ghahraman said it was "probably the most embarrassing failed policy" National could have dug up, and New Zealand deserved better.

       "What we know about young people who get detained for crime is that they have overwhelmingly just experienced a serious trauma – that's domestic or sexual violence … 90 percent have serious learning disability. The stats are really really clear, the research is clear, we know what to do to prevent them from a lifetime of crime and we know that is not bootcamps."

       https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/478945/national-party-youth-boot-camps-policy-criticised-as-ineffective-and-populist

       NZ set up its first boot camps in 1971 but they were abandoned in 1981. The boot camps were regarded as a failure with a 71% rate of re-offending among corrective trainees.

       https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boot_camp_(correctional)

       'Been there, done that, failed' – Luxon's proposed youth military boot camps doomed, lawyer says

       https://www.stuff.co.nz/pou-tiaki/300741616/been-there-done-that-failed–luxons-proposed-youth-military-boot-camps-doomed-lawyer-says

       Chester Borrows, one of few Nats who i did respect (sad he passed away) and Sir Peter Gluckman….

       https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/boot-camps-cliche-says-former-national-minister

       Does that cover it? Nact….ever willing to repeat mistakes. fkwits
3. Ad 3

   31 May 2023 at 10:34 am

   OK it's insider baseball, but I can't wait for the radical wing of the Republicans to try and roll Speaker McCarthy over the Debt Ceiling agreement.

   https://www.politico.com/news/2023/05/30/dan-bishop-mccarthy-debt-limit-00099262

   All the Democrats will do is vote with the slight-moderate Republicans to save McCarthy and just shank the radical wing.

   What could go wrong.
   • Nic the NZer 3.1

     31 May 2023 at 1:26 pm

     The debt ceiling is a cynical Republican party bargaining tool he will just quietly not go ahead with that. Worst that happens is he gets a quiet word from a colleague that any publicity and concessions over the debt ceiling is considered profit by the Republican party.
     • tWiggle 3.1.1

       31 May 2023 at 3:09 pm

       A. Ocasio-Coretz gives a useful backgrounder to the debt ceiling debate, then calls for grassroots action in marginal Republican electorates to help push the deal. It's not moderate Republicans, but those in marginally-held voting districts who are the lever. She a marvel to behold in action.

       https://twitter.com/IndivisibleTeam/status/1661724891689754625
       • Nic the NZer 3.1.1.1

         31 May 2023 at 6:25 pm

         That is a reasonable way to explain the politics of these negotiations. It would look better however if her party took the effort to remove the debt ceiling from US politics when they next have that opportunity. At present the Republicans get two plays at the budget, first the budget itself and then funding that budget.
         • pat 3.1.1.1.1

           31 May 2023 at 6:49 pm

           Republicans?…you mean Congress I believe.
           • Nic the NZer 3.1.1.1.1.1

             31 May 2023 at 6:58 pm

             When the Democrats start renegotiating budgets at debt ceiling time, then its bipartisan.
             • pat …

               31 May 2023 at 7:03 pm

               yet you admonish 'republicans'….while they may be abusing their remit the fact remains that after a history of such abuse the American public continue to provide that ability
               • Nic the NZer …

                 31 May 2023 at 7:21 pm

                 How will the (once) proud Republican party cope with criticism of their cynical behaviour.
                 • pat …

                   31 May 2023 at 7:23 pm

                   Lol..as long as the great American public provide that capacity the criticism will amount to nought
4. Sanctuary 4

   31 May 2023 at 11:01 am

   An amazing, amusing and well written long piece vignette of American capitalism in the 21st century.

   The degenerate entitlement, the grift, the corruption – it's all there on in the car dealerships of America.

   https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2023/05/rich-republicans-party-car-dealers-2024-desantis.html
   • aj 4.1

     31 May 2023 at 12:16 pm

     That story is a reflection of so much else in the USA. Yes, a good read.
   • Ad 4.2

     31 May 2023 at 3:28 pm

     Haven't seen a piece like that since Bill Bryson did Fat Girls in Des Moines.

     Cheers.
5. PsyclingLeft.Always 5

   31 May 2023 at 11:18 am

   Countdown to freeze prices on 300 products but

   Supermarkets still winning – Consumer NZ

   Consumer NZ head of research and advocacy Gemma Rasmussen said because supermarkets put their own brands on the freezing line, they were still winning.

   "In these instances the supermarket is both the supplier and the retailer, so they can retain higher profit, and it also means that increases their market power over other suppliers."

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/business/491031/countdown-to-freeze-prices-on-300-products-but-only-two-vegetables-make-the-list

   countdown….to the end of the NZ supermarket duopoly ? When could this actually happen? The sooner the better !

   The duopoly profiteers..

   Consumer NZ chief executive Jon Duffy​ said supermarkets took more than $1 million in excess profits every day.

   “These profits are twice what they should be. We need more competition to drive down prices and give New Zealanders a fairer price at the checkout.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/128586011/a-slap-in-the-face-consumer-nz-calls-for-end-to-excess-supermarket-profits

   And…I found this…interesting. Brad Olsen of Infometrics. A kind of "go-to" for Economic news and supermarket soundbites.

   Connection with Foodstuffs.

   https://www.infometrics.co.nz/report/grocery-supplier-cost-index

   Neutral? IMO ..no.

   The supermarket duopolists have major skin in the game..so desperately want to retain their duopoly. To any and all extent

   Supermarkets shaping the food price story

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/mediawatch/audio/2018877026/supermarkets-shaping-the-food-price-story
6. Jack 6

   31 May 2023 at 12:45 pm

   Labour has set the bar so incredibly low but even their most competent MP can’t get over it.

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/kiri-allan-gives-wrong-speech-on-freedom-camping-bill/6OMK7SXSSZGXRNDPS6QA3TA6RY/
   • alwyn 6.1

     31 May 2023 at 1:47 pm

     Whatever happened to Eddie? He had great fun when Coleman did the same thing in 2010. I'm sure he would be able to come up with some views on how useless Allan is to not even realise what she was doing.
     lprent may want to reuse the thumbnail he put up then for Kiri.

     https://thestandard.org.nz/informed-debate-from-jonathan-coleman/
     • Jilly Bee 6.1.1

       31 May 2023 at 4:04 pm

       And of course it was until recently one of the main headlines on Granny Herald's website – slightly demoted now but still there. I can't see any mention of it on other news outlets LOL. I see you mentioned that Jonathan Coleman did it too back in the day – of those two MPs I much prefer Kiri Allan – she is definitely not useless in my book, whereas I certainly can't say the same for Jonathan Coleman when he was Minister of Health. Some of us have relatively long memories.
   • bobo 6.2

     5 June 2023 at 12:44 pm

     What about the legislation they are passing.

     Soon to be unlawful to have a camp toilet which you use, but if you have a 'fixed' toilet and crap on the roadside that is perfectly ok?

     Over anything else the Government refuses to yield to calls to change the defense criteria in Section 32 of the Summary Offenses Act. So at the very least public defecation remains easily legally defendable 🙁 https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1981/0113/latest/whole.html
7. Anker 7

   31 May 2023 at 1:19 pm

   Anyone have a link to Kathleen Stocks speech at the Oxford Union, i.e. her actually speaking?

   I saw an extremist non binary sex denialist glued her hand to the floor as the debate was taking place.
   • Stuart Munro 7.1

     31 May 2023 at 4:54 pm

     I believe the address was successfully disrupted.

     This seems to be an interview from earlier the same day.
   • Nic the NZer 7.2

     31 May 2023 at 6:36 pm

     Fortunately they were glued not riveted by the speech.
   • Visubversa 7.3

     31 May 2023 at 8:41 pm

     Doc Stock's speech here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgcI4DBHUA4
     • Anker 7.3.1

       2 June 2023 at 11:41 am

       Thanks Visubversa, but that is the Cambridge speech. It is possible they didn't record Oxford
8. tWiggle 8

   31 May 2023 at 1:48 pm

   Taxpayers Union road show exposes their role in 3 Waters

   And have further plans along anti-Māori themes in regional resource management…

   Clips posted from 'The Taxpayers' Union "Hands off our homes" roadshow at their first stop in Otautahi. The TPU speaker [in the first clip] is Callum Purvis.'

   Scroll down through the tweets, with conspiracy dogwhistles, galore World Economic Form, UN, with tacit agreement from National MP.

   Talking about global conspiracies, the NZ TPU is part of the global Atlas alliance (guessing it refers to Atlas Shrugged). A sister organisation in Australia is funding and organising anti-Voice propaganda.

   Who's behind anti-Voice messaging?
   • Anker 8.1

     31 May 2023 at 2:03 pm

     Any response to my comment poointing out to you that its possible you have accused Stephen Schwartz from Atomic Analyst to be a paedophile went he may not be?

     As I mentioned in a comment on that thread I did some research on Stephen Schwartz child sex offences and found there were two people of that name who have been charged over child porn, One was a teacher and one was a surgeon.

     It is possible that the Stephen Schwartz from Atomic Analyst (seems he is anti nuclear weapons) is also a paedophile. But given that it is a serious accusation, I think you need to provide evidence that this is the case. Unless you posted the wrong reference to the wrong Stephen Schwartz?
     • Incognito 8.1.1

       31 May 2023 at 2:22 pm

       As I mentioned in a comment on that thread […]

       Which comment and what thread? It always helps to link to what you’re talking about instead of people having to guess and/or do a search.

       Secondly, you’re barking up the wrong tree, as you have the wrong commenter in your crosshairs.

       You’ll never receive the answers this way …
       • tWiggle 8.1.1.1

         31 May 2023 at 3:18 pm

         Hey Incognito ergo summa laude, how does one link to a previous TS post? It would save me a lot of typing.
         • Incognito 8.1.1.1.1

           31 May 2023 at 3:37 pm

           There’s a difference between Posts and comments. I assume you mean comments here.

           Each comment has a time & date stamp, which doubles as the URL to that specific comment. You’ll see the address appear (somewhere on your device’s screen) when you hover over it with your cursor.

           Copy & paste that as required. However, with TS comments there’s something peculiar. If you paste them on their own, the revere to the Post URL rather than to the specific comment. You can avoid this by putting a character straight in front or behind the comment URL or by using the Link function of the Text Editor in which you write your comment.

           https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-29-05-2023/#comment-1951915

           .https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-29-05-2023/#comment-1951915

           https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-29-05-2023/#comment-1951915.

           https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-29-05-2023/#comment-1951915

           HTH

           Edit: the TS ‘oddity’ seems to have been fixed, in which case you can ignore that part of my reply. Apologies for the confusion.
           • tWiggle 8.1.1.1.1.1

             31 May 2023 at 5:24 pm

             And thanks too. Perhaps this could go on the TS faq page? Or, embarrassingly, is it already there and I’m too lazy?
       • Anker 8.1.1.2

         31 May 2023 at 3:57 pm

         • Thanks Incognito.
       • Anker 8.1.1.3

         2 June 2023 at 9:13 am

         I will leave it up to you Incognito as to whether you want to follow up or take down a comment that is potentially libelous i.e. it is possible someone on this site has accused someone of being a sex offender, when in my very casual look I could only find evidence that the two people who shared his name were convicted of sex offences. Up to you.
         • Incognito 8.1.1.3.1

           2 June 2023 at 9:54 am

           When you make accusations of this kind and want Mods to take action, then please include a link and a clear explanation of what the issue is.
           • Anker 8.1.1.3.1.1

             2 June 2023 at 11:41 am

             fair enough
           • Anker 8.1.1.3.1.2

             2 June 2023 at 11:54 am

             904

             This is from Joe 90. I googled Stephen Schwartz sex offending and got two different SS from the Atomic Analyst. One was a teacher, the other a surgeon and they had different middle initials. I googled the Atomic Analyst and could not find any references to sex offending (I am certainly not saying that it isn't the case). In the first instance my suggestion would be to ask Joe 90 for evidence, but of course that is up to you

             Your welcome

             29 May 2023 at 5:23 pm

             Gold.

             Stephen Schwartz

             @AtomicAnalyst

             This is not an interview. It's a colonoscopy

             @RonFilipkowski

             ·

             5h

             Mark Levin kicked off his interview of Trump tonight with the kind of tough question that I have been waiting for all year. Now THIS is journalism.

             https://twitter.com/AtomicAnalyst/status/1662969806507655169
             • joe90 …

               2 June 2023 at 1:51 pm

               ask Joe 90 for evidence,

               Evidence of what?

               Gold was a reference to the description of Levin's servile interview of tRump as a colonoscopy.
             • Incognito …

               2 June 2023 at 9:26 pm

               I still have no idea what you see as the problem here.
9. Drowsy M. Kram 9

   31 May 2023 at 1:49 pm

   When downsizing means destroying our universities [31 May 2023]

   Maybe it's time to reconsider the case for a 'University of Aotearoa New Zealand', or perhaps a lesser merger. But would our competitive university business sector wear it?

   Te Pūkenga issues new style guide advising against using words like 'merger' and 'student' [15 March 2023]
   • tWiggle 9.1

     31 May 2023 at 3:49 pm

     '[Otago] university has known for years that it was heading for borrowing, due to its planned capital expenditure on buildings. In late 2018, the university lodged an application to the Tertiary Education Commission to more than double its "borrowing consent" to $405million — from a prior limit of $170million.'

     Apparently OU has not borrowed (lived beyond its means to upgrade or expand) in the previous 30 years. Oops, planning on low interest rates and upswing in enrolment; then covid, loss of the postgrad-to-citizen pipeline and interest rate rises derailed management plans.

     As it runs out of operating budget in Sept this year, Otago appear to be targetting staffing numbers, rather than shutting down works programmes, after the planned 5% increase in student numbers didn't eventuate this year. OU management also hid the extent of the problems in previous years from staff unions and others; 'the university produces long-range financial forecasts, but has not been able to direct the ODT to a financial plan managing its risks.' Bad, bad OU bigwigs.

     ODT in depth debt coverage
10. Tony Veitch 10

    31 May 2023 at 2:15 pm

    Good heavens, Chippy just totally destroyed Luxon in QT in the House today!

    Bring on the election debates!
    • Tony Veitch 10.1

      31 May 2023 at 2:26 pm

      And Grant just did the same to Nicola!

      I thought there was a law against massacres!
      • Red Blooded One 10.1.1

        31 May 2023 at 2:56 pm

        That was self inflicted wounds from Willis and Luxon. If they're truly that thick no wonder they're scared of reading Bilingual Road Signs.
      • Mac1 10.1.2

        31 May 2023 at 3:24 pm

        And ACT and National questioners insist on asking a question that is part of a larger quote and therefore misleading. Ginny Anderson pointed that out today during QT in the House, naming some half dozen different recent dates on which the same question was the lead off to be answered by the same response quoting the full statement.

        Waste of opposition's time and effort really, unless they are attempting to propagate misinformation by repetition which is one of the ploys of propaganda and misinformation.
      • rod 10.1.3

        31 May 2023 at 4:54 pm

        I wonder if we will see any of it on TVNZ1 news this evening ? I won't holding my breath.
11. Red Blooded One 11

    31 May 2023 at 3:24 pm

    ACT swipes former NAT

    A little Chaos in Pakuranga?
    • Mac1 11.1

      31 May 2023 at 3:28 pm

      No wonder why National are having to expend so much energy and adopt more extreme right wing positions to defend their right flank.

      Are their recent retractions of policy part of this strategy?
12. observer 12

    31 May 2023 at 4:07 pm

    Nicola Willis has obviously planted a mole in Luxon's office.

    "Hey Christopher, go out and get another headline, with the dumbest thing you can say to millions of voters … "

    And he has.

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/05/election-2023-national-to-make-women-pay-fee-for-contraception-prescription-if-elected.html
    • Anne 12.1

      31 May 2023 at 4:14 pm

      Oh dear, that's not going to go down well with half the population. 😮
      • UncookedSelachimorpha 12.1.1

        1 June 2023 at 2:34 am

        Luxon's values right here:
        • Anne 12.1.1.1

          2 June 2023 at 5:36 pm

          
    • Incognito 12.2

      31 May 2023 at 5:01 pm

      Go forth and multiply!
13. tWiggle 13

    31 May 2023 at 5:16 pm

    Big Hairy News discuss Simon Wilson's article on Nats losing political ground to Act

    Simon posits race as as the crux point.
    • Patricia Bremner 13.1

      31 May 2023 at 5:31 pm

      They have not changed!! What is worrying is the pull to the right. Brash once said "My wife is Asian you know" (Soon was Ex-wife!!)

      The dog whistles about race, road signs being bi-lingual, contraceptive charges for women, guns, and now housing accord flip flop is National trying to stop Act nibbling it's right flank!!

      Comments on Interest.co.nz are hardly flattering for the right.
14. Jilly Bee 14

    31 May 2023 at 5:31 pm

    For my sins I duly confess to subscribing to the Herald on line – it manages to give me a reason to laugh out loud or become a screaming wreck all in a very short time, reading the comments from the Nact/Act faithful who obviously flock to their shrine each day. Today's offering from one Richard Prebble is grist for their mill – with the headline 'Hipkins v Luxon – the voters' choice is clear'. I won't post the link (unless I'm advised to by the Mods) as it is paywalled – 'PREMIUM'! Of course Chris Luxon is considered almost the second coming (and I say that, being a one time parishioner of St Paul's in Symonds Street, when Richard's father – Archdeacon Kenneth Prebble was vicar) and his son was the Labour MP for Auckland Central), whereas Chris Hipkins is the anti-christ! His op ed was a sickening read as usual, but the commentors flocked to hear what he had to say and were salivating over his every word and madly belittling any dissenters.
15. Mike the Lefty 15

    31 May 2023 at 8:10 pm

    Have a listen to "The Detail" on RNZ tonight.

    It is about how National are going to use Artificial Intelligence to lie to electors and the scariest thing is that the tech experts seem to think that there is nothing wrong with that.

    I think we will see dirty politics from National the likes we have never seen before.
    • Patricia Bremner 15.1

      31 May 2023 at 9:47 pm

      Agreed.
16. rod 16

    1 June 2023 at 4:39 pm

    Thats a job for Hosk and Hoots.

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