Does Shane Jones understand preferential voting?

Written By: - Date published: 10:05 pm, September 7th, 2013 - 81 comments
Categories: labour, Shane Jones - Tags:

Shane Jones has called on Grant Robertson supporters to back him after a surprise poll result had him in second place behind David Cunliffe.

Of course the poll wasn’t of Labour members or leadership voters, so is somewhat tangential to what the actual result might be.  Among self-identified Labour supporters he had a slight lead over Robertson (well within the sizeable margin of error), but that might not relate to members.  And that’s before you get to the union vote (which he’s hardly been courting), or his very small caucus support.

But the thing with preferential voting is that voting tactically will get you nowhere – or at least not to the place where you want to go.

You vote for the person you want, and, if they get eliminated, tough bikkies, but your second choice comes into play.  There’s no point ordering them a different way, or you just stand a greater chance of getting someone who you wouldn’t prefer.

Of course the less charitable option is that Shane Jones does know how preferential voting works, and just hopes others don’t and he can confuse them into voting for him, but given he didn’t know how to send a message on twitter to someone, I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt…

Update (h/t Greywarbler): and to Paddy Gower – it may well come down to Jones’ second preferences – but that does not make him a “kingmaker”.  He does not control his second preferences, he has not even endorsed a preference, so he does not make the king…

81 comments on “Does Shane Jones understand preferential voting? ”

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  1. Greywarbler 1
    7 September 2013 at 10:27 pm

    Patrick Gower ws saying that Jones will be the kingmaker. That would not happen I hope.
    http://www.3news.co.nz/OPINION-Why-Shane-Jones-is-Labours-kingmaker/tabid/1382/articleID/312199/Default.aspx

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  2. Greywarbler 2
    7 September 2013 at 10:44 pm

    In a surprise poll result, voters have picked Shane Jones ahead of Grant Robertson in the Labour Party leadership race, while David Cunliffe remains the firm favourite.
    Conducted by Research Now, the 3 News poll sampled 500 voters from around the country, asking them to name their preferred Labour leader from contenders Mr Cunliffe, Mr Robertson and Mr Jones.

    From the info on Research Now which I haven’t heard mentioned before:
    We are proud to offer you the largest, most powerful online research panels available today — the Valued Opinions™ Panel and the industry’s first and best “by invitation only” panel, the e-Rewards® Opinion Panel. In addition, we offer social media sample to increase our ability to meet market demand…
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  3. Pete 3
    7 September 2013 at 11:23 pm

    Yes. I had that impression too – that Gower fundamentally misunderstood how an STV vote works. Unless he means Jones or his surrogates will be encouraging his supporters to rank a candidate second on their ballots. But he seems to think that Jones would decide where those votes would go should he come second or third in the first round.

    • lurgee 3.1
      8 September 2013 at 10:09 am

      It isn’t an STV contest. It’s Alternative Vote, which is STV’s ugly, dim younger brother. STV is a magnificent stallion, AV a useless gelding, to put it in terms Shane Jones might understand. Under FPTP the most popular candidate wins, even if they are not very popular; under AV, the least unpopular candidate wins; and in STV, some speccy nerd at a computer tells you who has won and no-one can work out if it’s the right result because the sums are too complicated.

      • Rich 3.1.1
        9 September 2013 at 3:25 pm

        “When STV is applied to a single member election it becomes Instant Runoff Voting (IRV)”. The British call IRV “the alternative vote (AV)”

        It’s hard to see how you could elect a leader by multi-winner STV – Labour would need to have joint leaders to do that,

    • David H 3.2
      8 September 2013 at 11:30 am

      All Gower is good for, is to make shit up. He is just an insignificant man, in an insignificant world, trying to make up insignificant news, for an insignificant audience. Sounds like something from the Mad Hatters Tea Party. or a Broadway Show. lol

  4. Ron 4
    8 September 2013 at 12:41 am

    It’s also a bit late to try and fix the vote. I voted after the Auckland meeting and most off people I know also voted early in the campaign.
    I don’t really care what the man in the street thinks if they want Jones they are welcome to him. But to Labour voters if they vote Jones, they really don’t deserve to be in government. He would be a sleeping disaster for the Party and for New Zealand

    • karol 4.1
      8 September 2013 at 6:59 am

      Yep., Jones has no real credentials, track record or credibility for leading any political party’s caucus. He public vote seems to be based mostly on likability as presented via the media.

    • LynWiper 4.2
      8 September 2013 at 9:06 am

      I agree Ron and karol. I am extremely disappointed in SJ’s apparent popularity. While I can understand the crass entertainment value, hearing that NZ’rs (most likely kiwi guys) are seriously considering voting him for Labour Leader is very disheartening.

      • the sprout 4.2.1
        8 September 2013 at 9:15 am

        Jone’s apparent popularity is nothing more than the product of extensive free media coverage gifted to him by certain so-called journalists for entirely dubious reasons. The same can be said for much of Key’s popularity, or the popularity of heavily advertised toothpaste or shampoo.
        I wouldn’t get too despondent about it, it’s no reflection of members’ reality.

      • lurgee 4.2.2
        8 September 2013 at 10:12 am

        That’s democracy for you. Ain’t it great.

        The one good thing about a Jones victory would be to drive home the lesson to Standardistas that our views – and for all that we squabble relentlessly I think we’re all pretty much on the leftwing of the party – are NOT representative of mainstream Labour opinion, and you dismiss them at your peril.

        • QoT 4.2.2.1
          8 September 2013 at 11:05 am

          Please provide evidence of Standard authors “dismissing” “mainstream” Labour opinion.

          • weka 4.2.2.1.1
            8 September 2013 at 12:07 pm

            Criticising right wing Labour opinion on the other hand… perhaps lurgee is confused about the geography and the attitude.

        • billbrowne 4.2.2.2
          8 September 2013 at 12:01 pm

          Funny, I was at a meeting last night with 600 other Labour members, oddly the more left wing the policy, the greater the applause.

  5. weka 5
    8 September 2013 at 6:58 am

    “Does Shane Jones understand preferential voting?”

    More pertinent perhaps, is “Do Labour Party members understand preferential voting?”

    (that Gower ‘article’ borders on Broadcasting Standard’s complaint territory).

  6. karol 6
    8 September 2013 at 7:31 am

    Shane Jones probably understand preferential voting? But do some of his cheerleaders understand how much of a backward step any promotion of Jones in the Labour caucus will be? Especially within a party aiming for some sort of gender equality.

    Do people like Matt McCarten really understand how demeaning to women cheerleading of Jones political posturing is?

      • karol 6.1.1
        8 September 2013 at 7:47 am

        Thanks. Jones does seem to have a penis fixation. Schoolyard, locker room stuff. Arrested development?

        • bad12 6.1.1.1
          8 September 2013 at 8:08 am

          Having a far cruder turn of phrase i would attach to Shane Jones a far harsher epithet, so in the interests of a clean contest it is probably better i keep such to myself,

          What tho was Matt McCarten thinking when He wrote that abysmal ‘opinion piece’ for the Herald, cruising close to the line where the best comment that i could ascribe it being semi-Jonolism nearly deserving of a ‘Golden Turd’ award,

          McCarten trying a bit of machiavellian politics without having the intellectual depth to be able to manage the machiavellian and instead painting Himself as the champion of a ‘business as usual’ right leaning Labour Government???,

          The old ‘Commie’ belief, should i have said the ‘old lazy Commie’ belief that things will eventually get bad enough for the proletariat and ‘the revolution’ will occur without the aforementioned ever having to lift a finger???,

          Pretty slack Matt, lift your game…

          • Ant 6.1.1.1.1
            8 September 2013 at 8:22 am

            Matt is anti-Labour, he’d prefer to see the party burn and someone else pick up the vote.

            His opinion pieces have followed that direction since he started writing for the herald.

        • Mary 6.1.1.2
          8 September 2013 at 11:52 am

          Which really just makes him stupid. I’d also add that the last couple of weeks have shown what a complete liability to Labour he is and that after the leadership’s been sorted he should be kicked out of the party. I wasn’t offended by anything he said. I just thought that most things he did say were just so dumb Labour should be embarrassed to have him on its side so they should just boot him out. Easy.

      • just saying 6.1.2
        8 September 2013 at 8:43 am

        This isn’t about vulgarity, it’s about bigotry. I’m offended when Bomber suggests that it is mainly Herne Bay ladies clutching their pearls, while sipping soy lattes who feel outrage at Jones’ free-reign/rain of jeering and insults, and the “Boys are Back in Town” bonhomie of too many men who claim to be left-wing, in repsonse.

        Here’s a vulgarity of my own:
        How much shit do they expect us to shut-up and eat?

        • Ant 6.1.2.1
          8 September 2013 at 9:19 am

          The vulgarity is just as insulting to the working class it’s intended to mimic.

        • QoT 6.1.2.2
          8 September 2013 at 11:06 am

          Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaall the shit, js. If women and other oppressed groups could just tape over their mouths and vote along Labour party lines like good little sheep, that would be about perfect.

        • Murray Olsen 6.1.2.3
          8 September 2013 at 5:58 pm

          I’m surprised Bomber said that, but maybe I shouldn’t be. He is pretty erratic and I find little worthwhile in anything that he writes, but he does usually pretend to be a bit more cultured.
          Basically, fuck the lot of them. I can strip down a Bonnie and put it together better than any of them. I could drink like a fish and was a lover and a fighter. I can also publish research in quantum physics, and I’m fucking offended that Jones thinks the world revolves around his ure. I don’t claim to be left wing. I am. They can stick their image of worker as caveman where the Sun don’t shine.

    • Maureen 6.2
      8 September 2013 at 8:23 am

      I couldn’t believe that article. He doesn’t get it, eh?

    • Morgan Godfery 6.3
      8 September 2013 at 8:29 am

      Hi Karol

      I respect your opinion, but McCarten – as a Maori and a tino rangatiratanga supporter – appreciates the significance Jones’ bid has for Maori and Maori politics. Jones’ bid has to be seen in the context of the Labour-Maori alliance and as an example of the new approach Maori are taking to power. It’s fair to refuse to support Jones’ (given past form), but it’s disrespectful to Maori aspirations to ignore the wider issues that his bid raises.

      http://mauistreet.blogspot.co.nz/2013/08/power-shane-jones-edition.html
      http://mauistreet.blogspot.co.nz/2013/08/history-shane-jones-edition.html

      • karol 6.3.1
        8 September 2013 at 8:45 am

        Thanks for the links, Morgan.

        I understand that the Labour Caucus falls well short in it’s recent support of Maori. I stopped party voting Labour back in Clark’s time because of what Labour did re- the foreshore and seabed – the final straw for me.

        I understand that some see Jones forwarding the position of Maori in the Labour caucus. However, some of the comments, especially under your first link, seemingly also from Maori people, indicate many are not convinced by Jones.

        And what of Maori women? How does it help Maori to promote men on the back of misogyny? There are also some very good Maori women politicians. Metiria Turei is one of the main reasons I continue to party vote Green – though the Mana Party with Hone and Annette Sykes has a strong appeal, also. From my Pakeha perspective, I just can’t see how Jones is in their league. I also think Louisa Wall has been a more successful MP over the last year or so than Jones.

        And I will be watching Marama Davidson’s political career with interest.

        • Morgan Godfery 6.3.1.1
          8 September 2013 at 8:54 am

          The comments at my blog shouldn’t be taken as representative 🙂

          As far as Maoritanga goes, Jones is in another league. Turei and Wall can’t hold a candle to Jones on that count. I’d prefer a candidate with better left-wing credentials, but Maori political history isn’t rich with choice. We’ve had to work with what we have. The Maori politicians that do meet success – Winston Peters comes to mind – do so on the back of disowning their Maoritanga. Jones doesn’t. That makes his bid unique and, in my opinion, worth supporting.

          • karol 6.3.1.1.1
            8 September 2013 at 9:03 am

            Thanks, Morgan.

            How do you rate Hone Harawira and Annette Sykes, then?

            It’s not just Jones’ (limited) left-wing credentials that bother me, it’s his misogyny and lack of political achievements in recent years.

            • Morgan Godfery 6.3.1.1.1.1
              8 September 2013 at 9:27 am

              By the logic of my post on power and the Maori approach to it, I rate them 0. The Maori Party has tried the approach that Mana is taking. Build a movement and win ministerial warrants. That failed. I was an early supporter of the Mana Movement and I’m still sympathetic to their aims, but they’re taking the path that the Maori Party carved and might meet the same fate.

              For Maori, this is about a Maori Prime Minister. One of the last and most important glass ceilings. Shane Jones is the closest we’ve come. Prime Minister Annette Sykes? That’ll never happen. I find it interesting that the Right has been more accommodating of Maori in positions of power. Timi Kara (James Carroll) was a deputy Prime Minister and Acting Prime Minister.

              I can’ help but feel when Maori refuse to conform to expectations about their role then the Labour left turns feral. Turia was eaten alive for her principled stand on the F&S. However, those that remained – Parekura comes to mind – were praised as big picture thinkers etc etc. It smacked of reward for those Maori that knew their place – as mihi men and token brown women. There was also the chorus of condemnation when Nanaia Mahuta stood for the deputy leadership under DC. The Labour left and some on the wider left crowed about her having achieved nothing, being a lightweight and worst of all: a token appointment.

              PS: I accept the misogyny point and in no way do I want to diminish or cover the hurt that that causes.

              • bad12 …
                8 September 2013 at 9:54 am

                ”Turia and Her principled stand on the foreshore and seabed” all in the one breath, such principles being quickly sold off for the pleasure of getting the tiro onto the leather of a Beamer seat,

                Perhaps you can tell us how what Auntie Tariana gained from National’s foreshore and seabed Legislation…

              • Mary …
                8 September 2013 at 12:13 pm

                “For Maori, this is about a Maori Prime Minister. One of the last and most important glass ceilings. Shane Jones is the closest we’ve come.”

                I don’t think Jones running in the leadership contest is akin to the closest we’ve come to having a Maori Prime Minister. He was never a serious contender, and simply put his hand up after listening to silly Mike Williams. Jones had pretty much ruled himself out before this – the only wise thing he’s ever done but then he went on to even stuff that up. A few words from the pontificating “I” specialist git Williams combined with Labour’s rules for determining the leader don’t in my opinion represent “the closest we’ve come to a Maori Prime Minister”.

                You’re right that Annette Sykes will never be Prime Minister, but that’s only because she’s in a minor party, not because she’s Annette Sykes. She could very well make it to Prime Minister if she were in a different party. Take Louisa Wall, for example. Her being part of a major party together with having what it takes personally, to me, is already far closer to having a Maori Prime Minister than Shane Gilmore Jones could ever hope to be.

              • Populuxe1 …
                8 September 2013 at 4:03 pm

                Technically not true. Both Winston Peters and Sir Apirana Ngata served as acting Prime Minister in their deputy roles

              • miravox …
                8 September 2013 at 7:37 pm

                ” I accept the misogyny point and in no way do I want to diminish or cover the hurt that that causes.

                Morgan, I understand and accept the importance of a Maori PM who is immersed in Maoritanga. Would you make it clear how important it is to make compromises in order to back this particular man? At what stage should people stop putting up with the insults, and at what stage would you concede you backed the wrong man?

                – clearly not misuse of parliamentary funds (hotel rooms) and legislated process (Bill Liu)- fair enough, there are examples all over the place of that
                – not the bigotry
                – not the sexism and misogyny that’s a green light to harm to Maori women intellectually, emotionally and probably physically
                – not when he’s dismissive of the views on the environment that the people he represents espouse
                – not when he accepts slave-type working conditions as the price of doing business?

                Sure, we have leaders in all sorts of places that do these things. But what sort of leaders do they make, and why should anyone with a conscience just shut up and take it because the goal is more important than the journey?

                I understand the investment in the man and the impatience for the goal. I don’t understand what you’re willing to concede to make it happen.

      • jenny kirk 6.3.2
        8 September 2013 at 9:01 am

        Kia Ora Morgan Godfery – for your information, I really wonder whether Jones does care about his people, or whether he is just using them.
        As you could see on the 3rd Degree TV 3 programme Jones attended a hui at the Whakapara Marae which he’d been invited to, to discuss jobs and economic development. Jones is Labour’s spokesperson for regional development so it seemed appropriate for him to be invited to the hui.
        However, yes – he led the manuhiri onto the paepae for the powhiri and answered on their behalf.
        Then he had morning tea with everyone, and then he DISAPPEARED when the real business of the day – the discussion on alternatives to mining for economic development – took place.
        He just was NOT interested. So much for him caring about his people. I was disgusted that he could USE his people for his own publicity puff purposes, and not take what they wanted to say to him seriously.
        I can only hope that Maori Labour voters can see through the facade when it comes to voting for the Labour leadership.

      • just saying 6.3.3
        8 September 2013 at 9:04 am

        Thank you for the link Morgan,
        As always, good points well made.

        But you must appreciate how it might feel for women that yet again, the fight against racist (and other oppressions) requires our mana to be trampled into the ground. And somehow, for the greater good, the onus is always on us to accept it – maybe not so much with good grace these days, but still to “let it go”.

      • bad12 6.3.4
        8 September 2013 at 9:22 am

        ”No way, Shane Jones is a pro mining neo-liberal apologist for slavery at sea, if a right wing pro business Maori is meant to encapsulate Tino Rangatiratanga, then any sort of social justice and equity for the vast majority of Maori struggling to survive will continue to elude us”, unquote,

        Thank you Ana, M.Godfrey, i half inched that off of the link you gave and i think that such a position as what Ana takes is probably as close as you are going to get to a general consensus of how Shane Jones is viewed by the majority of commenters here at the Standard,

        In my opinion, what could the average Maori expect to gain by having Shane Jones in the top 3 of a Labour Government, NOTHING, Shane Jones is FOR one thing and one thing alone, the advancement of Shane Jones full stop,

        Do you buy into the ‘Shane Jones smoko room Bro’ bullshit??? i certainly don’t and i find such creepy dishonesty where Jones tries to ‘market himself’ as something He is not and never has been as a snide denigration of Maori intelligence by Him,

        You would, in your blogs, do Maori a far greater service by urging all Maori to look behind the ‘image’ and spell out the actual bread and butter gains that Maori might make when supporting any particular person or Party,

        Simply supporting Jones because He is a Maori is an open invitation to again have Maori aspirations shat heavily upon which has occurred far too often in modern New Zealand politics in recent times…

    • lurgee 6.4
      8 September 2013 at 10:21 am

      Not sure how this is cheerleading:

      Despite some in the media fawning over Jones, he hasn’t got a bolter’s show of winning. Jones knows he’s third.

      It’s a fairly straighforward description of the candidate and campaign. It’s a good picture acknowledging Jones’s strengths which are not Or are you just not allowed to mention Shane Jones now, for fear of demeaning some (obviously very easily demeaned) women?

      The reality is all three candidates will expect meaty portfolios (put it away, Shane, not that meat) and will have earned it; it will also be politically expedient to maintain the ‘Refreshed, reunited’ message.

  7. Saarbo 7
    8 September 2013 at 8:10 am

    It does seem that Jones is more Cunliffe friendly than Robertson friendly. I just heard RNZ report say that Jones reckons most people who have voted for him have placed Cunliffe as their 2nd preference. And at Hamilton on Thursday he opened his presentation with a mihi to Cunliffe’s wife for the work she is doing on the roadshow. So he does have this going for him (IMHO)

    • karol 7.1
      8 September 2013 at 8:17 am

      Or is it just Jones seeing which way the wind is blowing, and getting onside of the person most likely to give him a shadow portfolio?

      • miravox 7.1.1
        8 September 2013 at 8:27 am

        A bit like Trev calling himself the ultimate utility player in his fluff piece on the Stuff site this morning.

        It screams ‘wiping the slate, pick me’.

      • bad12 7.1.2
        8 September 2013 at 8:35 am

        A grovelling attempt by Shane Jones to keep His front bench position in the Labour Caucus, of all the people currently Labour MP’s Jones is my first candidate for David Cunliffe to demote to the back bench,

        i realize that Cunliffe when He puts together his shadow cabinet is going to have to for the purpose of ‘party unity’ include some of those we here at the Standard despise but i don’t think He should include Jones among them, if He does i can guarantee that Jones will cause Him no end of trouble in the future…

        • lurgee 7.1.2.1
          8 September 2013 at 10:23 am

          Refreshed, reunited. Shane will be on the front bench.

          • Mary 7.1.2.1.1
            8 September 2013 at 12:19 pm

            And just watch the numbers of women leave Labour as a result. Jones’ leadership bid will be very damaging for Labour if they put Jones anywhere near the front bench. The last couple of weeks we’ve had a bit of an insight into what the guy’s really like. It’s been extremely enlightening, and now he needs to go.

      • Saarbo 7.1.3
        8 September 2013 at 8:37 am

        Yes, of course, Im sure you are right there Karol. I wonder if we will see more caucus members doing the same.

      • Rich 7.1.4
        9 September 2013 at 12:57 pm

        I think you have something there. Possibly the way the “kingmaker” thing works is that Jones goes to whoever wins and claims that the 2nd preferences came to them through his grace and favour.

        This may work, but for the fact that neither Robertson nor Cunliffe were borne yesterday.

    • Maureen 7.2
      8 September 2013 at 8:32 am

      Saarbo, it’s good to hear something positive about Jones. Those of us who don’t go to the meetings never hear a whole speech from him so wonder why on earth he gains support.

      It seems that the media are playing up Jones’ chances for their own sake while Jones is well aware that he is there to be the class clown.

      • Saarbo 7.2.1
        8 September 2013 at 8:48 am

        Yes Maureen, these guys are politicians, the real challenge for us is filtering the stuff that comes out of their mouths into what is genuine and what is BS.

  8. tracey 8
    8 September 2013 at 8:59 am

    Jones has said almost nothing about what he stands for. However had dinner with my 51 year old brother. Anti labour and voted national last election. Has been talking derisively about key for sometime. Last night he hailed jones as someone ” who at least tells it like it is”. However when pressed said he is probable voting greens. He said the doco last week was the death nell in his mind for neo lib economics. When I told him only cunliffe had actually denounced neo lib he said he was probably voting greens cos they have principles and key is obviously threatened by norman hence all the attacks. His words not mine.

  9. jenny kirk 9
    8 September 2013 at 9:14 am

    Kia Ora Morgan Godfery – for your information, I really wonder whether Jones does care about his people, or whether he is just using them.
    As you could see on the 3rd Degree TV 3 programme Jones attended a hui at the Whakapara Marae which he’d been invited to, to discuss jobs and economic development. Jones is Labour’s spokesperson for regional development so it seemed appropriate for him to be invited to the hui.
    However, yes – he led the manuhiri onto the paepae for the powhiri and answered on their behalf.
    Then he had morning tea with everyone, and then he DISAPPEARED when the real business of the day – the discussion on alternatives to mining for economic development – took place.
    He just was NOT interested. So much for him caring about his people. I was disgusted that he could USE his people for his own publicity puff purposes, and not take what they wanted to say to him seriously.
    I can only hope that Maori Labour voters can see through the facade when it comes to voting for the Labour leadership.

  10. Virginia Linton 10
    8 September 2013 at 9:46 am

    The heartbreaking thing about Shane is that he was raised to be a leader. The hopes of many people who came before rest on his shoulders. What would they make of the crass opportunistic roadshow Shane has become? What would they think of parading his family’s misery on TV3? Of his childish attack on John Key? Of his disrespect for women? The leadership contest has raised Shane’s profile and his gift for one liners has amused many. We all enjoy a sideshow. But the tragedy of Shane Jones is that he was given every opportunity to be so much more.

  11. tracey 11
    8 September 2013 at 9:46 am

    they will only see through it if they know about it. perhaps jones has struggled to win his seat because he is not on the groung DOING enough, just talking?

  12. Virginia Linton 12
    8 September 2013 at 9:56 am

    I would argue that Shane isn’t in the league of the Maori women MPs. He is Dover Samuels the Second, and after many years in Parliament, what is Dover remembered for?

  13. Sanctuary 13
    8 September 2013 at 10:17 am

    People need to lay off on the visceral attacks on Jones. I agree he would be a disastrous leader of Labour, because to me he only represents an image – and crude image at that – of a single dimension of the sort of people the Labour party was founded to represent. But we cannot forget the Labour Party only exists because it is the voice of exploited workers.

    One thing this whole leadership process has revealed to me is Labour is riddled with people who have forgotten what the party was founded to do and what the party’s primary mission is. Labour is the voice of, well, Labour. Its primary mission should be about organising and politicising ordinary New Zealanders in order to give them jobs, hope, social security and bigger share of the economic wealth of this nation. Grant Robertson quoted Kirk saying exactly this – “somewhere to work, somewhere to live, someone to love and something to look forward to”. Forwarding the interests of minorities is a secondary but vital and organic sub-set of that struggle. However, it is not the primary mission goal.

    So to me, looking down your noses at the coarse working men who support Jones as uneducated oiks – some sneering fool on Public Address called them “cloth cap matey mateys” – is simply class riddled snobbery and frankly, if that is what you think you’d be better off in the National Party, which is the true home of middle class snobs who enjoy heaping scorn on their social inferiors. My father was a coarse working man who left school at 14 and earnt everything he ever owned with his own hands. It infuriates me beyond belief when I hear views of people like him dismissed out of hand with the sneers of the liberal so-called left, because he enjoyed nothing more than wiping exactly those smirks off exactly those faces with both his hard work and his fists.

    Whether the middle class liberal faction in the party likes it or not Shane Jones appeals to a large chunk of voters who should be a Labour partys core constituency. Oh – and don’t give me that rubbish that blue collar workers are actually social liberals or just in need of a middle class education to shed their false consciousness and embrace the centrality of the middle class narcissism of small differences. That is just snobbery by a different way. People have different moral values. Get over it and respect that. Turning our backs on the people Shane Jones seems to speak to would be to accept that U.S. style culture war is more important to the Labour Party than representing people who struggle to feed themselves adequately and who are exploited and casually humiliated by capitalism on a daily basis.

    • lurgee 13.1
      8 September 2013 at 10:25 am

      Now that is worth a +1.

    • Maureen 13.2
      8 September 2013 at 11:08 am

      Sanctuary, my father left school at 11 – beat that. He was a wharfie and could be quite bigoted. BUT I think he would have been shocked by Jones’ crudity.

      And Jones doesn’t look as if he has ever worked physically in his life so he’s not exactly the working class hero type, is he? As mentioned above, we all had high hopes for Shane Jones when he entered politics. This is what makes it particularly sad that he has kind of lost his dignity

      Has he personally put forward any policies that will assist those who labour?

      • Sanctuary 13.2.1
        8 September 2013 at 11:23 am

        “…Sanctuary, my father left school at 11 – beat that. He was a wharfie and could be quite bigoted. BUT I think he would have been shocked by Jones’ crudity. ..”

        My parents would have been as shocked as yours, they were very conservative morally. Which is why I said Jones is crude and one dimensional. But as Lincoln said when told U.S. Grant was an alcoholic – “I can’t spare this man, he fights.”

        And so it is with Jones – whatever we may think of him he appeals to a huge chuck of of what should be core voters who switched off Labour. He may be a charlatan to you and me, but in politics perception is reality and at this point in time, Labour can’t spare this man.

    • karol 13.3
      8 September 2013 at 5:58 pm

      One thing this whole leadership process has revealed to me is Labour is riddled with people who have forgotten what the party was founded to do and what the party’s primary mission is.

      Actually, so far, it’s only really Cunliffe who has addressed those origins, whilst also acknowledging that some of the most impoverished and exploited people are women, struggling to provide for their children.

      Speaking with a Noo Zild accent, and using masculinist, misogynistic, coarse language is superficial, and harks back to when Labour and unions were male dominated. (Key does, the I’m am an ordinary Kiwi bloke at the barbie routine, and he’s far from being an ordinary Kiwi).

      That male dominance is still there in Labour – in the last couple of years, no Labour caucus leadership contender has been a woman.

      If I’d realised being a candidate (as with Jones) was about promoting your career prospects, and lining yourself up for a front bench, or even deputy role, I’d have strongly advocated for a couple of women to be nominated.

  14. Virginia Linton 14
    8 September 2013 at 10:35 am

    You are assuming Sanctuary that those of us who once supported Shane and are disappointed are middle class snobs. I grew up working class and put myself through university by working in many a low paid job. We can be disappointed in Shane just as you can have high hopes for him.

    • lurgee 14.1
      8 September 2013 at 10:38 am

      Saying “he would be a disastrous leader of Labour” is hardly expressing high hopes.

    • Sanctuary 14.2
      8 September 2013 at 11:29 am

      I respect that. And I suspect we have similar views on the man.

      But you have to concede that the nature of much of the vitriol directed at Jones and his constituency from within the party has been couched in terms of intellectual middle class snobbery, something that should be very troubling to a party that portrays itself as representing the weakest, the poorest and the most downtrodden in our society.

      • weka 14.2.1
        8 September 2013 at 11:35 am

        I’m middle class. My disdain for Jones is his misogyny, his relative right wing politics, and his dismissal of the Green Party. Am I an intellectual snob?

      • The Fan Club 14.2.2
        8 September 2013 at 2:41 pm

        The man went to fucking Harvard. He’s not the “weakest, the poorest and the most down-trodden”, he’s the fucking 1%.

        • lprent 14.2.2.1
          8 September 2013 at 2:58 pm

          So? Not everyone becomes an elitist arsehole when they become affluent or even if they were born affluent.

          Personally I tend to view elitist arseholisn of the type you display so clearly as simply being a genetic marker for lacking much empathy and being a stupid prick who can’t think.

          After all (aside from your own stupid prickish example) we only have to look at John Key and indeed many of the National cabinet for examples.

  15. JK 15
    8 September 2013 at 11:04 am

    “So to me, looking down your noses at the coarse working men who support Jones as uneducated oiks – some sneering fool on Public Address called them “cloth cap matey mateys” – is simply class riddled snobbery and frankly….”

    No Sanctuary – it is not us who are looking down our noses, but Jones himself setting himself up to speak for the “working classes” when he hasn’t done this in his entire political life before now. It is the sheer hypocrisy of what he is trying to portray which sticks in my gullet – the Jones “boy” has had a privileged upbringing and an exclusive education (including a spell at Harvard) and there were high hopes of him going into politics from Maoridom which have not been fulfilled. And now he wants to fly in on the coat-tails of Party activists who worked hard against caucus anger to get a more democratic “say” in what and how the Party is represented by that very caucus. He’s a fake.

    • Sanctuary 15.1
      8 September 2013 at 11:16 am

      I am not saying he is he isn’t a fake. But rather if he is a fake then he is one that Labour needs.

      • red rattler 15.1.1
        8 September 2013 at 4:15 pm

        I go along with that, how about voting more economically conservative, morally backward, egoistic self-promoting non-achieving fakes into Parliament, so that the Labour Party can legislate to remove the conditions which cause economic conservatism, moral reprobation, personal egoism, sloth and inauthenticity.
        That’s a brilliant strategy.

    • lurgee 15.2
      8 September 2013 at 11:18 am

      Hypocrisy? Politicians? Say it ain’t so?

      You’re missing the point. it isn’t what Jones IS, but what the voters project onto him. If they see him as a matey larrakin and they respond to that, and reject Roberston as a Thordonclone, then that’s where the Labour party is at.

      You can rail at them for being so stoopid, but that’s rather the point Sanctuary was making, I think; and you won’t convince them they’re wrong, any more than they’ll convince you you are wrong.

      Either way, I’m right, of course.

      • Sanctuary 15.2.1
        8 September 2013 at 11:30 am

        “…Either way, I’m right, of course….”

        hahahahaha

        The sum of all internet forums in six words! 🙂

  16. Tracey 16
    8 September 2013 at 11:10 am

    jones is being most disrespectful because he is deliberately misleading a group that needs labpur. it is jones who has described his competitors as intellectuals, as academics, almost sneeringly. however that is precisely what he is. university and then govt jobs is his background.

    leadership is hard work. even in this contest he is the one mostly mouthing slogans. i worry there is no work ethic or substance behind his slogans.

    calling everyone bro wont change the working conditions of our hard working blue collar workers.

  17. Tracey 17
    8 September 2013 at 11:32 am

    isnt the problem with fakes that they win the vote, win the govt benches, then make life worse or no better for those who believe the lies. it spunds like voting for jones would be like voting for key, you think youxare getting a brighter future but really you get rogered, with your permission?

    i just dont get how being fake cld help those who you say need his help?

  18. Virginia Linton 18
    8 September 2013 at 12:41 pm

    I find myself thinking of my Dad reading these posts. He was a union organiser who left school at 13, but he could spot a phoney in a nanosecond. He would want better than Jonesy; wish he was here to chat with about the contenders on a rainy Northland Sunday.

    • David 18.1
      8 September 2013 at 1:43 pm

      Well Said. Good fair commentary going on here: best I’ve read on the Standard for ages (with no disrespect at all to regular commentators!). There’s a deep duplicity to Jones (as there is to Winston) that needs pointing out. I’d love to see a Maori PM, and see Maori better represented across all the party (though that too is happening): but whoever that Maori PM is, he will have to stack up much better than this guy. This guy plays games with precisely those hopes: which is a good chunk of what really annoys me about him.

  19. Maureen 19
    8 September 2013 at 12:55 pm

    Know what you mean, Virginia.

  20. Treetop 20
    8 September 2013 at 4:50 pm

    Shane Jones understands how to lift the profile of the Labour Party by getting noticed. His next mission is to get people into the polling booth on election day. Hint: organise a Hikoi to Wellington in about a year and push the message are you one of the 830,000 who did not vote?

    Maybe a lot of left voters are transient and get put off by doing a special vote. I think that Jones would be comical and forthright in the voting message.