The Daily Blog – A week of it

96 comments on “The Daily Blog – A week of it ”

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1. TheContrarian 1

   8 March 2013 at 11:55 am

   Commenting and moderation sucks.
   • fenderviper 1.1

     8 March 2013 at 12:12 pm

     Yeah Pete George is everywhere.
     • lprent 1.1.1

       8 March 2013 at 1:20 pm

       I did rather direct him there. Now he has a left-wing site to write comments in, then I might view less whining about how he isn’t allowed to comment here (and boring the hell out of everyone with his displays of how not to take a position that he is willing to argue).

       I’m just glad I don’t have to waste time moderating all of the irritating discussions about the lack of his debating skills he seem to be all that he can engender. Bad enough seeing it on my occasional sweeps through the sewer

       😈
       • fenderviper 1.1.1.1

         8 March 2013 at 1:55 pm

         Yes I’m forever grateful he got his lifetime ban from here, hopefully he can slip up at TDB and get the same treatment. Both him and his bouffant pimp are as irrelevant as J.Banks and need to quietly f*** off for good!
   • r0b 1.2

     8 March 2013 at 12:25 pm

     Commenting and moderation sucks.

     Can you be more specific?
     • TheContrarian 1.2.1

       8 March 2013 at 12:44 pm

       The moderation is too tight
       • Pascal's bookie 1.2.1.1

         8 March 2013 at 1:31 pm

         For what?
       • Jackal 1.2.1.2

         8 March 2013 at 1:59 pm

         Don’t tell us you like heavy moderation TheComedian… Your extensive complaints about it show otherwise.
         • TheContrarian 1.2.1.2.1

           8 March 2013 at 2:02 pm

           Not sure how comments mentioning the moderation is too tight would lead you to believe I was a fan of heavy moderation
           • felixviper 1.2.1.2.1.1

             8 March 2013 at 2:11 pm

             I think he thought you said light, like a lemming. Not toight, like a toiger.
             • TheContrarian …

               8 March 2013 at 2:18 pm

               Anyway – asking if The Daily Blog is comparing itself to the likes of Hunter Thompson (as the linked article suggests) doesn’t make it through Bombers strict moderation.

               I envision no disagreements allowed. Perhaps not but I wouldn’t hold my breath. Bomber doesn’t like it when people disagree with his positions.
               • Jackal …

                 8 March 2013 at 2:35 pm

                 Ah right, tight not light like a lemming. I suspect you would criticize any moderation of your comments in a similar way… However there’s a big difference between disagreeing and simply being antagonistic! What category do you usually fit into TC?
                 • TheContrarian …

                   8 March 2013 at 2:37 pm

                   A little column A, a little from column B.

                   But Bomber is pretty well known for not being able to brook any disagreement.
                   • Jackal …

                     8 March 2013 at 2:48 pm

                     You’ve said the same thing about myself, and 1prent for that matter… So that’s three moderators who you disagree with. Do I sense a pattern of too much antagonism and not enough reasoned debate, and could that be why you get moderated TC?
                   • higherstandard …

                     8 March 2013 at 2:49 pm

                     All three of you are well known control freaks and aeolists.

                     [lprent: Can’t say that I have ever claimed to have “inspiration or spiritual insight” except in some rather specialised coding areas (that I largely don’t mention here). Certainly I am a “control freak” here as it is my role to be so. You only have to go back to reading the moronic comment sequences back in late 2007 and early 2008 to find out why the other authors allowed me to start moderating.

                     I just don’t brook any dickheads trying to divert or to control the debate, abuse authors, or just acting like fools – all of which I *have* to read. People who don’t like it can always find or create a site that fits what they want better. ]
                   • TheContrarian …

                     8 March 2013 at 2:52 pm

                     You’re a fine one to talk about reasoned debate. You couldn’t reason yourself out of a decision on whether to put pants or shoes on first.
                   • Jackal …

                     8 March 2013 at 2:58 pm

                     I can assure you that your comment about moi higherstandard, couldn’t be further from the truth. But I guess you fit well into category A, in that you’re simply trying to antagonize with ad homonyms. No wonder you’re backing up TheConformist then.
               • Pascal's bookie …

                 8 March 2013 at 3:26 pm

                 Anyway – asking if The Daily Blog is comparing itself to the likes of Hunter Thompson (as the linked article suggests) doesn’t make it through Bombers strict moderation.

                 I envision no disagreements allowed. Perhaps not but I wouldn’t hold my breath. Bomber doesn’t like it when people disagree with his positions.

                 Yeah, well, to be honest I don’t think the world is much poorer for not seeing that comment then eh?

                 You’ve got abee in your bonnet about Bomber (fair enough) but that doesn’t mean he owes you a platform to snark at him, especially on ablog with 30+authors. It’s not really ‘Bomber’s place’ in that sense, from the looks of it.
                 • TheContrarian …

                   9 March 2013 at 10:29 am

                   “You’ve got abee in your bonnet about Bomber”

                   Because he is a complete knob as well as a liar and git. He probably chews with his mouth open too.
                   • Frank Macskasy …

                     9 March 2013 at 12:12 pm

                     TC:

                     You’re a fine one to talk about reasoned debate. You couldn’t reason yourself out of a decision on whether to put pants or shoes on first.

                     TC:

                     Because he is a complete knob as well as a liar and git. He probably chews with his mouth open too.

                     You were saying about “reasoned debate”?
                 • TheContrarian …

                   9 March 2013 at 10:32 am

                   “but that doesn’t mean he owes you a platform to snark at him”

                   Quite right, I’m not owed anything by anyone. However if you are going to be ‘the most opinionated man in NZ’ (as has been said about Bomber) you should have the courage of your convictions to allow and refute disagreement.
                   • Colonial Weka …

                     9 March 2013 at 10:58 am

                     Why? Allowing and refuting disagreement takes time and energy, hardly the priority of someone who is the most opinionated man in NZ.

                     ‘my blog, my rules’
                   • TheContrarian …

                     9 March 2013 at 11:21 am

                     ‘My blog, my rules’

                     Couldn’t agree more. Nothing wrong with that either but if you are going to be strident in your opinions you should also have the intellectual courage to defend said opinions and allow for reasoned disagreement.

                     Bomber display no courage in his convictions.
                   • Frank Macskasy …

                     9 March 2013 at 12:18 pm

                     As Colonial Weka said, “my blog, my rules”.

                     Some years back I posted a comment on a rightwing, pro-republican messageboard about Iraq’s non-existant WMDs. Despite the website stridently advocating free speech, my post was removed (it was a fairly polite and non-aggresive comment).

                     Fair enough.

                     Their website, their rules.

                     I didn’t waste time whinging about it. No one owes you or me anything, TC.
                   • TheContrarian …

                     9 March 2013 at 12:28 pm

                     No, no one owes us anything, I agree.

                     But no one should pretend Bomber cares about anything else outside his own opinions and will brook no debate on said opinions even if shown to be wrong.
       • the pigman 1.2.1.3

         8 March 2013 at 9:49 pm

         Completely agree with TC. I read a comment I had made on the Ardern interview, and thought something was missing. Then I remembered the entire paragraph directed to Bomber about the need for an editor because of the 15 odd spelling mistakes that made JA sound foolish. As I recall, the entire paragraph was ingratiatingly polite but.. *snip*.
         • felixviper 1.2.1.3.1

           8 March 2013 at 11:08 pm

           Publishing edited comments without clearly marking them up as such is in my humble opinion far worse than not publishing them at all.
           • Colonial Viper 1.2.1.3.1.1

             8 March 2013 at 11:16 pm

             These damn autocratic lefties!
           • Colonial Weka 1.2.1.3.1.2

             8 March 2013 at 11:41 pm

             I think the rule ‘my blog, my rules’ generally applies, but I agree with you on that one felix. It’s extremely rude, plus it will put people off from commenting.

             There is a suggestion box btw, for anyone that wants to make suggestions about changes. That indicates a degree of openness and willingness to make changes for the better.
2. Jackal 2

   8 March 2013 at 2:01 pm

   The Daily Blog has just posted its first week’s stats as well… I’m jealous!
   • alex 2.1

     8 March 2013 at 3:23 pm

     If I may, how does that compare to the Standard? I’m guessing TS is a fair way ahead still?
     • Jackal 2.1.1

       8 March 2013 at 3:48 pm

       The optimum bit there is “I’m jealous” alex… Meaning The Jackal blogsite, which had considerably less views in its first week. In fact The Daily Blog has surpassed The Jackal’s current views in its first week, which is an achievement worth celebrating.

       I have no idea how many views The Standard had in its first week, and you’re correct that The Daily Blog still has a a fair way to go… But it’s a hell of a good start I must say.
       • alex 2.1.1.1

         8 March 2013 at 4:55 pm

         Yes, I know you blog too. Incidentally, The Daily Blog has outstripped my now defunct blog by a factor of about 55000 times the number of views a week. I more meant it as a general question to springboard off yours, if anyone knows, it would be interesting information.
     • r0b 2.1.2

       8 March 2013 at 5:25 pm

       If I may, how does that compare to the Standard? I’m guessing TS is a fair way ahead still?

       I dunno if we’re using the same tools or date range, but Google analytics for 1 March – 7 March has The Standard at 26,993 visits and 89,914 pageviews.

       So I’d say it’s a stunningly good start for The Daily Blog – as you’d expect with that kind of lineup (and The Standard featuring them probably didn’t hurt).
3. ropata 3

   8 March 2013 at 2:15 pm

   The problem with moderation there (and at tumeke!) is that you never know if/when your comment will be published, so conversation doesn’t flow. It feels like you’re controlled by a totalitarian regime.

   The policy here (and at KB/WO) is better, if someone makes a mess just clean up later 🙂

   [Bunji: oh the irony that this comment should end up delayed in moderation…]
   • lprent 3.1

     8 March 2013 at 3:23 pm

     🙂

     Flow is exactly the reason I built the TS system as multi-layered like it is.

     Cloudflare looks at you to decide if it thinks you might be a problem. If your location or IP are potentially suspicious then it will get you to prove that you’re human through a captcha before it will let you read the site. It will then remember that ‘location’ for weeks.

     Akismet scans each comment’s content, email, url and IP to see if it thinks you’re a possible problem. If it thinks you might be then it asks for a conditional captcha and files whatever you pass through that into auto-moderation for human attention.

     Finally the local wordpress compares you against signatures for auto-moderation or blacklist (ie bans) and files you in moderation or spam.

     If none have issues then you comment goes straight through like over 99% of the human comments – which is what we’re after

     We see a relatively small number of moderation and a larger number of spam for human attention. Still have to scan all of the comments for behaviour, but we’d be lucky to see a few unwanted comments that sneak through in any day. And we have *time* to deal with the exceptions in the manner to which they should become accustomed to.

     It winds up as being a whole lot less work than moderating each comment. That mixture of scanning and database technology with operant conditioning is going to get a lot more common.
     • TheContrarian 3.1.1

       8 March 2013 at 3:28 pm

       Yeah moderation and conversation flows here pretty well. Though moderation can be, at times, extremely inconsistent, it is never used to stifle dissent.

       At Tumeke I found posts that disagreed with Bomber’s personal narrative were often not approved.
       • geoff 3.1.1.1

         8 March 2013 at 10:52 pm

         John armstrong byis a shocker for moderation on his opinion pieces
     • Frank Macskasy 3.1.2

       9 March 2013 at 12:08 pm

       Lprent – ditto.
4. Jane 4

   8 March 2013 at 3:41 pm

   I have been over to TDB a couple of times, I read the interview with Jacinda Arden, the impression I was left with was that it did seem to be mostly about Bombers view, i.e. stating his view then asking her to agree/disagree, I’d rather hear the interviewes view rather than have them comment on Bombers view. Maybe it’s just his style.
   • TheContrarian 4.1

     8 March 2013 at 3:47 pm

     Yeah, he tried to lead Jacinda Ardern into slagging off Bennett three times but she wouldn’t take the bait.
     Very professional of Ardern I thought
   • Murray Olsen 4.2

     8 March 2013 at 4:35 pm

     Whenever Bomber interviews someone about anything, he also hands them the answer he wants. He does not try to elicit information, but seeks reinforcement of his world view. I think he’s a shockingly bad interviewer and his writing has too much of “look at how clever I am” in it as well. But then, I am a baby boomer and we’re apparently responsible for all the ills of the world.
     • TheContrarian 4.2.1

       8 March 2013 at 4:39 pm

       Agree Murray, 100%.

       (and I had a chortle at your baby boomer comment)
     • TheContrarian 4.2.2

       8 March 2013 at 4:42 pm

       And I must say him using a Hunter Thompson quote as if somehow he and Bomber/TheDailyBlog were equivalent nearly made me cry.

       Hunter Thompson was a brilliant writer with a searing intellect who garnered respect from all sides of the political divide. From Sean Penn on the left to P.J. O’Rourke on the right….Bombert – not so much.
     • Frank Macskasy 4.2.3

       9 March 2013 at 12:06 pm

       Really, Murray?

       And yet, Bomber is quite candid – for example – at the beginning of each episode of “Citizen A”; “we’re as fair and balanced as Fox News”.

       If any of his interviewees disagree with Bomber’s questions, I’m sure they have the brains to say so. Give them some measure of credit, eh?
     • Frank Macskasy 4.2.4

       9 March 2013 at 12:59 pm

       Reading through Bomber’s interview with Jacinda Ardern, it occurs to me that he is not positing “seek[ing] reinforcement of his world view” at all.

       He is voicing a scenario and asking the person (Jacinda) to comment. And because of questions pose a scenario, any answers have to address said scenario, instead of just of simplistic answers based on rhetoric or generalisations.

       In turn, the interviewee can agree; amend; or refute his scenario as theydeems fit.

       MSM interviewiers use similar techniques.
       • just saying 4.2.4.1

         9 March 2013 at 1:13 pm

         I wonder if the interviewees approve the questions in advance?

         Bomber seldom (if ever) challenges his interviewees in their responses to his questions, such as when the question has been waffled around but not answered. Although I find this frustrating, I think it is a valid interviewing technique, especially in the context of being the marginalised media. It’s very difficult to get politicians to answer to the left, and you can be sure that they won’t come again if they get pinned-down where they don’t want to. What they do come up with in response to questions from the left can be interesting in itself, and one day, if it happens often enough, they and the public might see left-wing framing to be as natural and ordinary as right-wing framing. And then MPs will be answerable to us.
5. Pascal's bookie 5

   8 March 2013 at 3:41 pm

   On delayed commenting, it has it’s advantages. All depends on what you’re aiming for from comments.

   If you want lots of comments, and a free wheeling brawl, you want velocity. But if that’s not what you are after from your comment section, delayed comments stops flamewars dead. There’s no real point in starting a fight if you have to check back in 1/2 an hour to see what’s up..
6. pollywog 6

   9 March 2013 at 10:06 am

   Won’t be going back as a comment in the “rape” section got denied, so why bother?
   • Colonial Weka 6.1

     9 March 2013 at 10:21 am

     I’m guessing from your other comments there getting little attention that you upped the ante and posted something even more supporting of rape culture than before?
   • QoT 6.2

     9 March 2013 at 12:02 pm

     You asked for suggestions of what to do to fight rape culture, you ignored them and started musing about whether rapists were just “born that way”. Gosh, I can’t think why a moderator wouldn’t want more of that smeared all over their page.
     • pollywog 6.2.1

       9 March 2013 at 2:44 pm

       Oh you know, a little thing like initiating frank discussion about causes, effects, solutions…Big picture stuff!

       And what I asked was what do you want me to do about it. Talk is cheap.
7. pollywog 7

   9 March 2013 at 10:47 am

   Not at all. It was more on lack of identifying cause and just complaining about the effect without offering any solutions.

   And righteously calling someone a fucktard when they laugh it off, call bullshit and insult the commentator, namely me:)

   Don’t see the point in bitchmoaning about shit and not being specific about what they want individuals to do about it.

   All those grand notions of “we” the people and governments/corporates need to change wear a bit thin if all they want people to do is sit around and do nothing but read blogs.

   Speak truth to power, sure…but beware it can come off as glib lip service if that’s all you do.
   • pollywog 7.1

     9 March 2013 at 10:52 am

     ^^^Meant as reply to 6.1
   • Colonial Weka 7.2

     9 March 2013 at 11:04 am

     Ok, so you want someone to tell you what to do about rape culture, and when people don’t because they’re for the moment engaged in another aspect of the conversation (an important one IMO), you state that because no-one has told you what to do, you won’t be doing anything. My response to that was ‘fuck you’. It’s not my job to educate you, to your timeframe, on how you personally can respond to rape culture, especially if not getting you way means you are willing to allow rape culture to continue. There are shitloads of posts on the internet that answer your question, go look them up. Or ask again sometime when people aren’t so busy, just ask in a less snippy way.

     Then you post some shit about how rape is natural. You really want people to take you seriously?

     “Don’t see the point in bitchmoaning about shit and not being specific about what they want individuals to do about it.”

     Did you follow any of the links? Go have a read on QoT’s blog for some starting points. It’s not hard to find good commentary on why rape culture exists and what to do about it. btw, the point of QoT’s post wasn’t to lay it all out for you in the way you wanted.
8. pollywog 8

   9 March 2013 at 11:18 am

   Meh…got better things to do.

   Thanks for your time but it comes across as you don’t know what to do about it either.

   And yeah maybe rape is natural. Look at animals in the natural world and maybe it’s unreasonable to expect we’re enlightened or evolved enough to move past it.
   • pollywog 8.1

     9 March 2013 at 11:23 am

     ^^^meant as reply to 7.2
   • Colonial Weka 8.2

     9 March 2013 at 11:24 am

     Not actually interested in understanding what to do about rape culture then. Thought so. You don’t strike me as a tr*ll, so am at a loss to know why you even bothered posting over there.

     “but it comes across as you don’t know what to do about it either.”

     The most useful thing you could do at this stage is to educate yourself. I think you will find that I and others will be happy to talk about strategies to combat rape culture when someone approaches that topic genuinely and is willing to do their side of the work.
     • Colonial Weka 8.2.1

       9 March 2013 at 11:27 am

       http://www.thenation.com/article/172643/ten-things-end-rape-culture#
       • Rogue Trooper 8.2.1.1

         9 March 2013 at 11:50 am

         Apologies. This might help (not)
         http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/conrad-black/tom-flanagan-child-porn_b_2837291.html
9. Spanishbride 9

   9 March 2013 at 11:48 am

   Oh the Irony

   Martyn is now the Unions Bitch. Paid to Blog. Oh the humanity. His opinion is for sale.
   • Frank Macskasy 9.1

     9 March 2013 at 12:19 pm

     @ Spanish Bride: Hi Cam.
     • Spanishbride 9.1.1

       9 March 2013 at 3:20 pm

       The name is Juana and I am married to Cam. I am not Cam. Gettit?
       • Tiger Mountain 9.1.1.1

         13 March 2013 at 2:53 pm

         sympathy all round, etc.
10. pollywog 10

    9 March 2013 at 11:50 am

    Yeah well, short of genetically engineering men to be less violent or sexually predative I don’t think there’s much can be done with education and lobbying.

    I think you’re fighting evolution and wishing enlightenment on others.

    Good luck with that. But I’ll do my bit to not trivialize the matter and show respect where it’s due.
    • pollywog 10.1

      9 March 2013 at 11:52 am

      ^^^meant as reply to 8.2 & 8. 2.1
    • Colonial Weka 10.2

      9 March 2013 at 11:57 am

      “Yeah well, short of genetically engineering men to be less violent or sexually predative I don’t think there’s much can be done with education and lobbying.

      I think you’re fighting evolution and wishing enlightenment on others.”

      Your >beliefs< support rape culture (and there is no evidence that rape is natural). Until you understand what rape culture is, and what can be done about it, you are in no position to present those beliefs as anything real.

      "But I’ll do my bit to not trivialize the matter and show respect where it’s due."

      I appreciate your attempt at kindness, but you are still nevertheless supporting rape culture. That's not respectful.
      • pollywog 10.2.1

        9 March 2013 at 12:08 pm

        Wheres the evidence that it isn’t natural given its probably been going on since men/animals first learnt what a penis is actually for?

        And thanks for reinforcing the point that the safest thing to do is nothing but sit and nod quietly in agreement when the matter is raised by a woman or risk being an enabler of rape culture to perpetuate.

        As far as I’m concerned I’m not supporting anything apart from the status quo until someone proves what can be done to effect real change and asks me to do it.
        • pollywog 10.2.1.1

          9 March 2013 at 12:14 pm

          Btw… this conversation highlights what’s wrong with the comments and moderation at the daily bog.

          And why I won’t be going back til it changes, or maybe until Efeso Collins proves Bombers claim to be an out spoken social commentator there.
          • Colonial Viper 10.2.1.1.1

            9 March 2013 at 12:19 pm

            And thanks for reinforcing the point that the safest thing to do is nothing but sit and nod quietly in agreement when the matter is raised by a woman or risk being an enabler of rape culture to perpetuate.

            One of the funniest things I’ve ever seen at a political meeting is men being literally shouted down by women fully intent on being sole claimants to the moral highground. All your points are invalid and irrelevant in advance, in fact if you’re the guy in this scenario you’re pretty much fucked.

            Better off to bail on the discussion, grab your chainsaw and get a bit more firewood ready.
            • Colonial Weka 10.2.1.1.1.1

              9 March 2013 at 12:24 pm

              “All your points are invalid and irrelevant in advance, in fact if you’re the guy in this scenario you’re pretty much fucked.”

              That is such bullshit. Go read the comments section on the blog in question and you will see men who get rape culture and are wiling to do something about it. I see men doing this on all sorts of issues that are important to women, and I can tell you that that is relatively new. I’m grateful for it myself – that there are men who get the issues and can front up in the important discussions.
              • Colonial Weka …

                9 March 2013 at 12:30 pm

                I’d also add that throughout this debate in the past few days pollywog has consistently presented themselves as hard done by, but has consistently refused to enter into the topic at hand in any meaningful way. Anyone who wants to turn up in a conversation about rape culture and have a little moan about themselves, and then post rape apologist shit like ‘rape is natural’ without being willing to examine their own beliefs deserves not to be taken seriously.

                Any time pollywog wants to engage seriously, I’ll start responding in an open and thoughtful manner.
                • just saying …

                  9 March 2013 at 12:50 pm

                  I wouldn’t be bothered with this debate today. I think it’s kind of derisory to go to another website to bitch and continue a debate from another website, in which the commenter in question (Pollywog) is failing in his arguments against a number of active and informed commenters. Especially in an unrelated thread at that other website – this thread is not about rape culture.

                  And the solidarity from another “oppressed” husband just seems sad.

                  But I want to give a bit of cheer to Weka for continuing to calmly and rationally represent my feelings despite all provocation. The response to QoT’s post at TDB, compared to previous occasions when she has posted something similar, shows that chipping away at this over the long haul, really can make a difference. And that difference, gathering momentum over time, could make spaces safer, and reduce the suffering of big numbers of people.

                  Kia ora Weka.
                • pollywog …

                  9 March 2013 at 2:39 pm

                  Oh fuck off.

                  You talk yourselves in circles arguing over statistics and that’s meaningful?

                  I ask if it’s possibly genetic or related to evolution and suddenly im an apologist, enabler and supporter of rapists.

                  Seriously…go fuck yourself!
              • Colonial Viper …

                9 March 2013 at 12:35 pm

                You mean I didn’t see men getting shouted down by women? Men being sidelined as entirely irrelevant for the entirety of a meeting because of a remark they had made earlier on which was interpreted as being patriarchal/out of date?
                • Colonial Weka …

                  9 March 2013 at 12:51 pm

                  CV, you know very well that I am talking about the conversation on TDB and here in the past few days. Your anecdote was a comment on that discussion. I don’t think that pollywog has been shouted down here. And they’re not being sidelined as irrelevant because they’re male, but because they’re posting stupid shit in a stupid way.

                  I’m sure your anecdote has truth in it – not the whole truth, but enough for me to listen to your point.

                  There are reasons why men get shouted down by women in those kinds of situations, irrespective of whether that’s ok or not. To suggest that taking your toys and going home is the most/only appropriate response just makes things worse IMO. And it tries to frame men as victims, where they are not.
                  • Colonial Viper …

                    9 March 2013 at 1:03 pm

                    I agree my point was not really relevant to the thread of TDB comments.

                    To suggest that taking your toys and going home is the most/only appropriate response just makes things worse IMO. And it tries to frame men as victims, where they are not.

                    When women are excluded (via whatever methods or pressures) from participating in a discussion that they are the subject of, are they victims? Surely similar applies to men.
                    • QoT …

                      9 March 2013 at 7:45 pm

                      See, the problem is that you say “(via whatever methods or pressures)” like everything’s equal and context doesn’t matter. As though women’s voices have not historically been suppressed in ways far more damaging and systemic than merely being shouted at.
                    • Colonial Viper …

                      9 March 2013 at 8:00 pm

                      So because of that past historical context, additional leeway needs to be given to one gender compared to another in how discussions and meetings (and blogs) are conducted today?
                    • marty mars …

                      9 March 2013 at 9:10 pm

                      cv do you think the same in regards to racism? – That because of past historical context, additional leeway should not be given in how discussions and meetings (and posts on blogs) are conducted today.
                    • Colonial Viper …

                      9 March 2013 at 9:58 pm

                      Good question. Right, so let’s use negotiations as a concrete example.

                      Should the side which has been historically disadvantaged now consistently have more chairs around the negotiation table than the historically powerful side? Consistently more speaking time than the other side? Consistently more power on setting the agenda? Consistently more power in selecting the meeting venue and timing? Consistently more say over the minutes? A consistently larger budget to get people to and from the meeting?

                      My answer is: it completely depends on the quality and type of outcomes you want between the sides for the future.
                    • marty mars …

                      10 March 2013 at 8:50 am

                      “My answer is: it completely depends on the quality and type of outcomes you want between the sides for the future.”

                      based on what suits/supports/strengthens the oppressor whilst giving lip service to the oppressed.
                    • Colonial Viper …

                      10 March 2013 at 9:35 am

                      Nope. In truly difficult cases it will actually require negotiations to reach agreement about the format of negotiations.
                    • marty mars …

                      10 March 2013 at 9:51 am

                      Nope, the oppressors will (nearly) always try to maintain their oppression by slanting whatever they are doing/saying for their advantage because without it they lose their privilege and that is a big no no. Sure they will couch it to seem like they are being fair or gracious but mostly they are bullshitting because the truth about themselves is so unpalatable that it must be hidden.

                      Actual good faith negotiations are based on humility from the oppressors and that requires a giving up of positions of privilege to allow the oppressed group the voice so long constrained.
                    • Colonial Viper …

                      10 March 2013 at 10:06 am

                      And so the oppressed should be given more speaking time? More influence over the writing of the meeting minutes and setting of agendas? More chairs around the table?

                      I don’t necessarily disagree with you but you also need to hold in mind the outcome, in terms of an ongoing relationship – if any, you want. As I said before.
                    • marty mars …

                      10 March 2013 at 10:36 am

                      Short answer – yes, because the oppressed decide based on what they believe is the best way forward.

                      To actually have a relationship going forward requires a giving up of privilege from the oppressors including deciding how the negotiations are conducted and any so-called fairness of numbers, time and so on. I’d probably go further and say that a meaningful relationship cannot occur unless the structure relating to the oppressors is discarded.
                    • Colonial Viper …

                      10 March 2013 at 10:45 am

                      OK the old structure is discarded, but how is the replacement structure to be discussed and agreed upon?

                      By the way – discarding the power structures favouring one class (the oppressors) in favour of those favouring another class (the oppressed) has a very simple name: revolution.
                    • marty mars …

                      10 March 2013 at 11:19 am

                      go back to here cv “One of the funniest things I’ve ever seen at a political meeting is men being literally shouted down by women fully intent on being sole claimants to the moral highground. All your points are invalid and irrelevant in advance, in fact if you’re the guy in this scenario you’re pretty much fucked.” and based on what I’ve just written where do you think that sits?
                    • Colonial Viper …

                      10 March 2013 at 11:34 am

                      In an echo chamber, talking to people who agree with you.
                    • marty mars …

                      10 March 2013 at 11:48 am

                      It’s not an echo chamber just because the oppressors voice is discounted as it has to be to allow the oppressed voices to be heard.
                  • pollywog …

                    9 March 2013 at 2:49 pm

                    Its cos im black innit 🙂
          • Colonial Viper 10.2.1.1.2

            9 March 2013 at 12:20 pm

            And thanks for reinforcing the point that the safest thing to do is nothing but sit and nod quietly in agreement when the matter is raised by a woman

            Husbands all around the world have been practicing this for centuries mate, time you caught up 😈
        • Colonial Weka 10.2.1.2

          9 March 2013 at 12:33 pm

          “Wheres the evidence that it isn’t natural given its probably been going on since men/animals first learnt what a penis is actually for?”

          You’re the one asserting that it’s natural. By all means put your evidence out there, and I’ll gladly demolish it.

          “And thanks for reinforcing the point that the safest thing to do is nothing but sit and nod quietly in agreement when the matter is raised by a woman or risk being an enabler of rape culture to perpetuate.”

          Why do you feel unsafe? Seriously, I’m interested.

          “As far as I’m concerned I’m not supporting anything apart from the status quo until someone proves what can be done to effect real change and asks me to do it.”

          I’ve offered you ways to find the proof. You’ve declined to take them. And yes, supporting the status quo is supporting rape culture. I would have thought that was self evident and precisely the point.
          • pollywog 10.2.1.2.1

            9 March 2013 at 3:02 pm

            I’ve read your links and heard your rhetoric and you haven’t proven shit that any of it will, does or can effect real change.

            Sorry but I don’t have much faith in your ability to  demolish anything.

            Sometimes good men do do something and evil still persists.

            As for feeling unsafe? I rarely do and not in the least here and now.
11. millsy 11

    9 March 2013 at 11:27 pm

    To be honest, there are some really good articles on TDB.

    Shame the layout is crap.

    And it is a total nightmare trying to navigate on a smartphone, and this is the type of stuff that I can read during my smoko and lunch breaks.

    And perhaps you could find a way of emailing the posts out. Would reach a whole new audience (especially given that people (like me) pick their emails up on their smartphones). Surely it just takes a few lines of code…
12. Tiger Mountain 12

    13 March 2013 at 3:02 pm

    Good on Bomber for giving it a go.

    He may be a little lacking in emotional intelligence and the “lighter touch”, I have met Trotskyites with a gentler demeanor.

    BUT he has things than cannot be “bought” sincerity, distaste for the self employed “Chev” contractors self importance, a solid left wing class analysis (go find a few more of those at Starbucks if you can), no love for the state forces and is a hard worker.

    It is also about the collective that builds around TDB where we teach and learn together.

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