The new government’s approach to climate change

Written By: - Date published: 1:34 pm, December 19th, 2017 - 119 comments
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With much arohanui and respect for the current Government can I suggest it has a good hard think about its approach to future mining for oil gas or coal, particularly coal.

Jacinda Ardern is right that climate change is her generation’s nuclear free movement.  We are already seeing how disastrous the effects are. Collapsing ice sheets, unseasonably warm seas, dying coral reefs, forest fires, droughts, out of control storms, the list goes on and the consequences are clear.

The consequences are as were predicted by pretty well all the scientists with expertise in the area with modest variations being the only differences of opinions that count.

And the message is clear.  We need to leave much of the discovered petroleum gas and coal in the ground if we wish to avoid torching the planet.  And coal is the most CO2 producing fuel there is.  It should be top of the list of things that should no longer be extracted.

Which is why the Government should adopt a policy of no new drilling permits.  No ifs and no buts.  And why the consultation around the proposed Zero Carbon Bill is so important.  To make sure that this message is reflected in the proposed law.

Greenpeace has expressed its concern.  From climate campaigner Kate Simcock:

It’s good to see that the new Labour Government is putting climate change action into legislation.

However, the most immediate climate action this Government needs to take is to stop the expansion of the fossil fuel industry by stopping issuing new permits. Any new permits for oil, gas or coal exploration or mining undermines the job of the new Commission.

It makes no sense to outline legislation and a Commission to transform New Zealand into net carbon zero by 2050, and then issue new oil and gas exploration permits which could be spewing forth carbon pollution for decades to come.

The science is clear. We can’t afford to burn most of the fossil fuels we have already discovered. It is incompatible with tackling climate change to look for more.

We agree that a just transition for oil, gas and coal workers is required, but that means winding down those industries rather than expanding them. It is extremely concerning that the Government’s rhetoric about ‘just transitions’ appears to justify opening new mines and issuing new permits for drilling and fracking.”

The Greens are in a tricky place.  From Radio New Zealand:

Climate Change Minister James Shaw will advise against new mining permits though the government’s position is to consider them on a case by case basis.

The Labour-led government is not ruling out new permits for coal mining, offshore oil drilling and fracking during a transition away from fossil fuels.

Prime Minister said there would be no mining on conservation land, but the government would consider other new permits “case by case”. She said coal mining was not the country’s future but there had to be a transition.

Mr Shaw said as Green Party leader he had always said the country should not be opening up any new fossil fuels.

“As Minister for Climate Change I have to say that in the future, if you’re going to get to a zero carbon economy, there will be a point at which it’s simply incongruous to be issuing those [new mining permits].

“I would advise against it, as Climate Change Minister.”

And Russell Norman has clearly stated why the Government’s position needs to be braver.  Again from Radio New Zealand:

Greenpeace executive director Russel Norman says no new mining permits should be issued if the government is serious about climate change.

“If we’re going to avoid catastrophic climate change we can’t afford to burn the existing known fossil fuel reserves – we can’t even afford to burn half of them – at a global level,” he told Morning Report.

“We need a rapid transition away from fossil fuel.”

“A transition means reducing the use of fossil fuels, it doesn’t mean looking for new fossil fuels as the Prime Minister seems to be leaving the door open to.

“If we’re serious about climate change we simply can’t be taking a case-by-case approach to oil gas and coal.

“We need to have a black and white position which is no new permits.”

The Petroleum Exploration and Production Association of New Zealand supports the current position.  If you needed further cause for concern this is probably it.

The only transition necessary should be a decision on whether or not to allow current coal mines, or oil and gas wells to remain open.  In particular the sooner the use of coal as a fuel is consigned to history the better.

There will be a consultation process surrounding the introduction of the new law.  This will be the perfect opportunity for all good progressives to urge the Government to be really brave about the issue that is the nuclear free issue of this generation.

119 comments on “The new government’s approach to climate change ”

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  1. Pat 1
    19 December 2017 at 1:42 pm

    “The only transition necessary should be a decision on whether or not to allow current coal mines, or oil and gas wells to remain open. In particular the sooner the use of coal as a fuel is consigned to history the better.”

    hear,hear…..indeed this is far more urgent and important than nuclear free NZ ever was.

  2. BM 2
    19 December 2017 at 1:45 pm

    As I’ve said before the comment about climate change being “her generation’s nuclear-free movement” was always disingenuous bull shit.

    She only said that because the Labour strategists wanted to take out the greens or knock them down so low they’d agree to whatever scraps they were offered and wouldn’t get in the way of a Peters/Labour coalition.

    This is a 4th term Clark government, apart from disproportionate handouts for Labour party voters it’s business as usual.

  3. Ed 3
    19 December 2017 at 1:50 pm

    Scientist Kevin Anderson: Our Socio-Economic Paradigm Is Incompatible With Climate Change Objectives

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBAcYkc6v6A

  4. Draco T Bastard 4
    19 December 2017 at 2:59 pm

    We need to leave much of the discovered petroleum gas and coal in the ground if we wish to avoid torching the planet. And coal is the most CO2 producing fuel there is. It should be top of the list of things that should no longer be extracted.

    Actually, that’s not the message.

    The message is that CO2 and other GHG emissions be reduced to zero. Coal and oil can be used in ways that do not, or at least minimise, the GHG emissions from burning them.

    Thus the law that we need is that the coal, gas and other fossil resources can be extracted but cannot be sold into industries that produce GHG emissions from their use. That includes downstream sales.

    No burning of them but we still get plastics, drugs and other useful products created from them.

    • alwyn 4.1
      19 December 2017 at 4:45 pm

      “The message is that CO2 and other GHG emissions be reduced to zero”

      That would, at least for the next 30 years or so, probably mean no air travel at all. We may get to a situation where we can have planes that don’t use fossil fuels but I can’t see it happening until at least 2050.
      Would you give up flying as a travel option in the interim? Not just for yourself but for everyone? If not how long would you allow the transition to be when the current type of air travel remains acceptable?

      Electric powered cars will probably become the norm within 5 years but aircraft and ships won’t be able to switch from fossil fuels nearly as readily.

      • Draco T Bastard 4.1.1
        19 December 2017 at 7:06 pm

        Would you give up flying as a travel option in the interim? Not just for yourself but for everyone?

        Yes. It’s actually what we need to do.

        Electric powered cars will probably become the norm within 5 years

        We can’t afford electric cars. Same as we can’t afford petrol cars. It’s not just the CO2 emissions but also the land use, the rubber use, the power use, the transportation. The list goes on and on. Climate change is just a really big reason to give them up.

        Ships can be sail as they were previously. But even if they remained running on fuels they’re far more efficient than pretty much any other form of transport.

        And for both ships and planes there’s probably a limited number, very small, that we can keep going indefinitely.

        If we were serious about reducing CO2 we’d be seriously curtailing trade because we can’t actually maintain it and bring down GHG emissions.

        • srylands 4.1.1.1
          19 December 2017 at 7:19 pm

          I presume you back this view up by not owning a car, and travelling by sailing boat when you leave New Zealand?

        • Grafton Gully 4.1.1.2
          19 December 2017 at 7:28 pm

          Ships can be sailed by modern technology
          https://theconversation.com/spinning-sail-technology-is-poised-to-bring-back-wind-powered-ships-74872
          And engineers are working on using dynamic soaring by robots for aircraft
          http://news.mit.edu/2017/engineers-identify-key-albatross-marathon-flight-1011

          • alwyn 4.1.1.2.1
            19 December 2017 at 8:23 pm

            I had heard about the spinning sail technology but I thought it had been abandoned. I suppose it might make ships mere efficient though if it can be done cheaply enough.

            I thought the second one, on the albatross, was quite fascinating. I never realised they flew so low. I’m not sure I would really want to do a long haul flight at less than 20 metres altitude though. For the robot vehicles they are considering they might make sense of course.
            I suppose the nearest thing to this would be the ground effect vehicles that were all the rage for a while. They were sort of a cross between a plane and a hovercraft. The Russians seemed to have done a lot of work on them.
            I thought they had been abandoned though.

            Thank you for the links though. Maybe we will get back to sails and quasi-gliders.

        • srylands 4.1.1.3
          19 December 2017 at 11:22 pm

          As The Standard is a Labour Party blog, I thought that you would be supportive of the Government’s climate change policy. I was very reassured by the Prime Minister’s announcement on mining permits. Similarly, I don’t see any significant ramping up of carbon pricing on the horizon.

          So despite a ramping up of the talk, there are no major changes in climate change policies compared to the last Government. And the government before the last government.

          • Incognito 4.1.1.3.1
            19 December 2017 at 11:42 pm

            As The Standard is a Labour Party blog …

            Oh dear, you should know better! TS supports the labour (with lower case “l”) movement.

          • Draco T Bastard 4.1.1.3.2
            20 December 2017 at 12:35 am

            As The Standard is a Labour Party blog

            Really, you’re going to start off your comment with a lie about The Standard?

            Definitely not the best way to build any credibility…

            Oh, wait, you don’t have any because of your propensity for lying.

            I was very reassured by the Prime Minister’s announcement on mining permits.

            Of course you were.

            So despite a ramping up of the talk, there are no major changes in climate change policies compared to the last Government. And the government before the last government.

            Obvious that you want things to stay the same (despite that it will most likely destroy most life on Earth) and that we all go to hell with you.

          • cleangreen 4.1.1.3.3
            20 December 2017 at 6:20 am

            “Concerned troll alert” time.

          • cleangreen 4.1.1.3.4
            21 December 2017 at 6:39 am

            Srylands

            Oh so do you advocate for yet more tarseal & trucks, and want to close down rail as your mates at treasury who work for “big oil” want?

            srylands = ‘world wrecker incorporated.’

      • SpaceMonkey 4.1.2
        19 December 2017 at 9:35 pm

        So then… that could mean we’re heading for a change in air travel. Gone will be the days of London in 24 hours except for the wealthy and important. For the rest it will be back to ship or airship.

    • timeforacupoftea 4.2
      19 December 2017 at 8:52 pm

      “Draco T Bastard 4
      Wrote
      19 December 2017 at 2:59 pm

      Coal and oil can be used in ways that do not, or at least minimise, the GHG emissions from burning them.”

      Twenty years ago I experimented growing vegetables in a mixture of bark, coal chips, sand and clay, no fertiliser and was pleasantly surprised how well the crops grew.
      The leaf crops were very green.

      Perhaps if anybody reads this who works at Lincoln would like to experiment with heavy soils and coal mixed together they may find they are onto a winner.

      This may save dredging the Chatham Rise for Phosphates etc.

  5. patricia bremner 5
    19 December 2017 at 3:10 pm

    This situation is really beyond politics. It will affect all life. We need to face it honestly.
    However, vested interests are powerful and heavily involved in the carbon world.

    Our government has battles on all fronts caused by neglect and business self interest.
    Denial has been rife, and change too slow. It may be a poisoned chalice they have.

    • cleangreen 5.1
      19 December 2017 at 4:04 pm

      Patricia I agree, we are so deep in shit now that any dilly dallying around now will only hasten our collective demise.

      Time for National people to finallly come in from the ‘cold’ or in this case ‘the furnace’ to get on board as we all suffer if they dont.

      we are well past the political stae now, so it’s in or out we go folks.

      I much ignored fact is that 10yrs ago scientists had traced the path of black carbon soot and particles from vehicle tyres on the arctic ice shelf, and was then found to be also greatly speeding up ice melting.

      As the black dust particles (they rightly found) were actually then attracting and storing the heat from the sun and creating much higher amounts of heat & ice melting.

      So just driving any vehicle be it a truck or car will greatly incease the ice melting also, that is why we are always now advocating much greater use of rail with steel wheels.

      Meantime we have to live with the adverse effects of noise and pollution:-
      1 truck tyre sheds 10 times the amount of 1 car tyre. Each truck tyre sheds 0.21 g/km of tyre compound (butadiene styrene), that is 5.46 g/km for a 26 wheel vehicle. The roughness of the road surface increases tyre wear 2-3 times.
      Road run-off accounts for 40-50% of urban metal contamination to aquatic ecosystems.
      There is a 7% increase in risk of premature death living near a busy road, increasing the risk of cancer, heart attack, stroke, dementia, childhood diabetes, asthma, allergies.

      Why are the Truck lobbyists still trying to push for yet more use of trucks???

      They are now contributing to all our demise.
      We don’t need more roads for trucks we need a return of rail services.

      We need to manage our transport to lower the air pollution that will increase Antarctic ice melt.

      http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/06/140610-connecting-dots-dust-soot-snow-ice-climate-change-dimick/

      Soot and Dirt Is Melting Snow and Ice Around the World

      http://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/

      The evidence for rapid climate change is compelling:

  6. Ad 6
    19 December 2017 at 3:50 pm

    Ain’t no votes going further left on this issue Mickey.

    This government and local governments are already piling it on with:

    – No more open fires or wood burners in Christchurch and Otago
    – Auckland’s regional fuel tax – at a level that will makes people’s heads explode
    – Train and tram projects that will die unless they get three terms, and cause massive disruption
    – Stopping all mining in conservation areas
    – Divestment in all petroleum by NZSuper
    – Fonterra divesting out of coal

    The right signals are already there, as are the political costs to come.

    No need for further fights that gain little and just invite pissed off multinationals to persuade their home countries to trade-retaliate against us.

    • Draco T Bastard 6.1
      19 December 2017 at 4:31 pm

      No need for further fights that gain little and just invite pissed off multinationals to persuade their home countries to trade-retaliate against us.

      Because forced trade is such a Good Idea.

  7. cleangreen 7
    19 December 2017 at 7:43 pm

    Draco,

    Ad is going to surrender but we wont.

    See what Simon Bridges is sending around the electorate now, all lies and more lies so we wonder what does Ad think of this?

    Mickey will be pissed off at this low life crap.

    dear ……………
    We’ve come a long way together over the last nine years. Our families, our communities, and our businesses have worked incredibly hard to turn NZ into the confident and prosperous nation it is today.
    Sadly, we are just over 50 days into this new Government and we’re already seeing an increasing pattern of u-turns, conflicting statements and broken promises.
    National is ambitious for the future of our country. We want to help build on our successes by delivering more jobs, lowering taxes on hardworking kiwis, and solving some of the most complex social issues our country faces.
    But the new Coalition’s inability to organise itself, along with its clear practice of not sticking to its word, is putting that at risk. They’re trying to put a handbrake on the ambitions on New Zealanders. You deserve better. So Let’s Undo This.
    Bill English and National left New Zealand in good shape, with a strong and resilient economy, low unemployment, and the Government’s books in surplus.
    The Coalition has a great opportunity to build on those strengths and take New Zealand forward.
    Our job now as the Opposition is to hold them to account and ensure they stay on a positive track.
    We’ll happily support the Government on issues that will deliver in the best interests of New Zealanders. But we’ll be fighting hard to oppose them if they’re going to try to knock New Zealand off that positive track.
    So today we’re launching our Let’s Undo This campaign. It details all the back-tracks the new Government has undertaken so New Zealanders can be better informed about how this Government is performing. They don’t want to measure their performance, so we’ll do it for them.
    Add your name now, and together we can hold them to account.
    Regards,
    Simon

    • Ed 7.1
      19 December 2017 at 7:45 pm

      Undo attempts to reduce child poverty.
      Nice one Simon.

    • Ed 7.2
      19 December 2017 at 7:47 pm

      Undo laws to increase paid parental leave.
      Nice one Simon.

    • Ed 7.3
      19 December 2017 at 7:48 pm

      Undo measures to reduce the road toll.
      Nice one Simon.

    • Chris 7.4
      19 December 2017 at 9:50 pm

      “…its clear practice of not sticking to its word…”

      “It details all the back-tracks the new Government has undertaken so New Zealanders can be better informed about how this Government is performing.”

      So Bridges and the nats agree with the government’s policies. Don’t know whether that’s a good thing or a bad thing.

  8. ropata 8
    19 December 2017 at 7:47 pm

    As stated on the other thread…

    Aside from the fact that Capitalism is deeply immoral and the gospel of infinite growth is to blame for wrecking global ecosystems, capitalism is an artefact of human society, the core problem is humanity itself, i.e. too many people.

    When a species overshoots sustainable levels, bad stuff happens.

    Al Jazeera has published this stunning video clip about the latest “warning to humanity” from 15000 scientists…

    This is a "warning to humanity" from 15,000 of the world's leading scientists. pic.twitter.com/cvCT3PJgP3— Al Jazeera English (@AJEnglish) December 17, 2017

    Here’s a similar YT clip

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBs-zDZkScU

  9. eco maori 9
    19 December 2017 at 8:02 pm

    I new Jacinda was going to be a intelligent assertive Leader to all you national trolls whom say she has not earned her role as OUR PRIME MINISTER.
    I’d say that at least % 40 preferred her for the job. She lifted the Labour Party up to the heights of government there were many obstacles that could have triped her up on this journey and she navigate a clear path to become OUR 40th PRIME MINISTER and the 3rd lady. Now all you naysayers national trolls go get a tissue and dry those tears and face reality and that is known matter what you do or say Jacinda is PRIME MINISTER.
    And the wantobees who think they could be prime minister you have the carimisma of a rock Mr lea and bridges so slap your own faces and see your reality as that’s never going to happen lol things will change for the better all in good time all we have to do is support Jacinda Kia Kaha.

  10. Whispering Kate 10
    19 December 2017 at 8:49 pm

    I was listening to RNZ Morning Report this morning and listening to Dr Norman Russel from Greenpeace and man was he giving the new PM a rark up about her playing around the edges of oil and coal extraction. That she was stating that she would consider each permit for extraction on a one on one basis. He was stating that there should be a complete halting of any more extraction of oil or coal and that the world was going to hell in a handbasket (not his words but to that extent). There supposedly was quite a hefty fine to cancel out of existing permits but Dr Russel was adament that money shouldn’t even come into the equation – that any way that could be achieved these permits should be stopped.

    I am so glad I voted for the Greens. They seem to be the only party that sees the seriousness of climate change and what its going to bring about in the future. We only have to see our crazy climate now world wide to know there is a seriously perilous situation coming and we are all in serious shit if something geniune is not done to cope with it.

    Our PM with her nuclear moment doesn’t resonate with me, everything she is trying to do she is watering down to satisfy somebody – it is very disappointing after her charismatic bringing together of the nation and bringing down the National Government. All we are getting is more of the same and with climate change there needs to be real courage to front it and she isn’t showing that at all.

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018626892/oil-companies-need-to-be-history-russel-norman

    • BM 10.1
      19 December 2017 at 8:54 pm

      It’s all an act.

      Ardern is an actor and not a very good one.

      • Ed 10.1.1
        19 December 2017 at 8:59 pm

        Evidence?

      • Draco T Bastard 10.1.2
        19 December 2017 at 9:19 pm

        Wow, you RWNJs are really pissed that Labour have actually put forward a leader that makes your leaders look like the pathetic dinosaurs that they are.

      • cleangreen 10.1.3
        20 December 2017 at 6:28 am

        Yes Draco; – it’s a beautiful sight seeing these National trolls going nuts now eh?

        “concerned troll alert”

        The climate change is occuring fasternnow than ever. just loook out your car window or home to see this now and go to the beach to see the errossion of all our coastal areas, it will convince every the most hardened concerned national troll.

    • timeforacupoftea 10.2
      19 December 2017 at 9:22 pm

      I’m thinking Whispering Kate that 6% green vote that is of the voting public on voting day verses labour 40% leaves the greens far far behind Jacinda crew, besides she is not into immediate suicide the world won’t die so don’t panic or attempt to be an alarmist she is to cleverly educated and wants to win next term as Prime Minister, doesn’t SHE.

      • David Mac 10.2.1
        19 December 2017 at 9:51 pm

        Yep, anyone that thought our government would be aiming for anything but the middle ground were setting themselves up for heartbreak. It’s what we want.

        I’m expecting the same tune sung in a different key. An entire octave change would be nice, from Spinning Cash B Minor all the way up the scale to People and the Planet.

        • Whispering Kate 10.2.1.1
          20 December 2017 at 10:05 am

          If anyone thinks I am a RWNJ they are very much mistaken. I am a progressive left wing voter and nothing this new Government is doing so far is making me think we are progressing in the right direction. Firstly our beneficeries are still being treated like they are lepers and they cannot live on what they receive from the government – and I am talking about people with long term disabilities. Secondly climate change is a very present danger to all humanity and just fiddling at the fringes is not going to help at all. Future generations (if we last that long) will not be thanking us selfish buggers one bit. The new PM needs to lift her game as the previous government just sat on its ass and did nothing.

          Somebody wrote on this site I think that its only going to happen when the wealthy in their beach side properties see the water lapping up and drowning their Matisse on the wall and then it will be too late.

  11. Tanz 11
    19 December 2017 at 9:31 pm

    If only climate change was real rather than a tax-grabbing hoax.

    • Ed 11.1
      19 December 2017 at 9:36 pm

      If only fools like you never appeared on blogs.

    • ropata 11.2
      19 December 2017 at 9:40 pm

      gravity is a hoax too, and the earth is flat… 😂

    • Macro 11.3
      19 December 2017 at 9:48 pm

      ^^^^^^^
      Tanz – Card carrying member of the Chumpkins.

      If you had a brain cell Tanz – it would be lonely.

    • cleangreen 11.5
      20 December 2017 at 6:36 am

      “Concerned Nat troll alert” dreamer= Tanz.

    • srylands 11.6
      20 December 2017 at 6:49 am

      That is pretty ignorant.

      I devoted 4 years to working full time on Climate change mitigation. The evidence for anthropogenic climate change is overwhelming. But you are entitled to your view I guess.

      What is open for debate is the best New Zealand government response. After, 20 years of trying, that response is all over the place. Sadly, it won’t change under this government.

      • cleangreen 11.6.1
        20 December 2017 at 8:35 am

        Thank you for your response Srylands;

        I personally have been forced not to use ‘Climate change chemicals’ mostly of CO2 emissions and fuels & other VOCs’ alderhydes and halogens that are harmful to our environment and us now since being chemically poisoned 25yrs ago.

        Now I have been left with a resulting life long disabilty that has forced me to adapt and I have spent that twenty five years using all other methods of surival with mostly non use of fosil fuel, as this was by choice.

        My resulting chemical poisoning now dictates that I need to aviod any VOC (volitile organic chemical) exposures.

        Or else my medical professionals who have studies my disabilities now advises will die.

        So your five years is admirable Srylands, but is just the beginning of your journey that I have already travelled by medical requirement now.

        There is no more compelling reason for change than having it forced upon you by a threat to our very life.

        You will soon be forced to comply with this force from climate change shylands. We are sorry to say it this way but that is the reality of our situation now.

    • srylands 11.7
      20 December 2017 at 10:54 am

      That is pretty stupid.

  12. Tanz 12
    19 December 2017 at 9:49 pm

    Climate change is a load of hogwash and is now very much discredited.

  13. Anne 13
    19 December 2017 at 9:52 pm

    The Tanzes of this world should be ‘shot at dawn’ for being so thick and ignoble they are a danger to the future of the planet. Even the humble hedgehog has more brains.

    Btw, and I’m being serious now. You Tanz are getting more obnoxious (look it up in a dictionary if you don’t know what it means) by the day. Is obnoxiousness an offence that would qualify for a permanent ban? Although I do admit she affords quite a lot of amusement.

    • ropata 13.1
      19 December 2017 at 9:56 pm

      That’s rude. Education and disinformation is the problem here.

      • Anne 13.1.1
        19 December 2017 at 10:01 pm

        No its not. It’s what what she deserves. She has been making crass statements on this site for a couple of years at least now. It’s time to call her out once and for all because she refuses to learn.

        Edit: “shot at dawn” was in inverted commas.

        • Ed 13.1.1.1
          19 December 2017 at 10:06 pm

          When catastrophic climate change kicks in, I hope there will be justice meted out to those who caused inaction by denying its existence.

        • David Mac 13.1.1.2
          19 December 2017 at 10:18 pm

          I think tanz is lonely, seeking attention and fearful of love. If I felt like that I’d probably play the “Hey all you Commie Bastards” game too.

          • ropata 13.1.1.2.1
            20 December 2017 at 11:08 am

            Possibly but IMHO she is stuck in the Young Earth Creationist mindfuck

            Young-Earth creationists actually embrace a philosophy that says nothing can be known about the world around us.

            Appearances and measurements lie. Trees lie. Carbon lies. Bones lie. The stars in the heavens lie. And nothing at all can be trusted from what we deceive ourselves into imagining we’re learning from observation, study, experiment and measurement.

            Their claim is even more audacious than that. It has to be. They want to say that they’re only disputing the honesty of “science,” but if that were the case, then we could easily test their claim by, say, switching on the light or looking at this page on the Internet. Science seems to work. And thus the epistemological anarchists of young-Earth creationism cannot simply be asserting the unreliability of science, they must also assert the unreliability of seeming. If a universe that seems ancient is not ancient, then both the universe and our seeming must be lying. Nothing we think we see, hear, touch or measure can be trusted. Nothing can be known.[…]

            These folks are demonstrably untrustworthy when it comes to their claims about the universe. It seems unwise, then, to regard them as wholly trustworthy when it comes to their claims about the Bible. It seems far likelier that their approach to the Bible is as reliable, thoughtful and defensible as their approach to the universe is — which is to say not at all.

      • dv 13.1.2
        19 December 2017 at 10:02 pm

        Tanz also thinks Bill English is the greatest PM in the history of the world.

        • Tanz 13.1.2.1
          20 December 2017 at 11:49 am

          He is. The New Zealand electorate somewhat agreed, must have, since he outpolled Jacinda Ardern by a country mile! He will be back. post Winston, to govern alone, with no need for partners, after the rort of 2017! I would stake my house and farm on it, as well as my zippy black car…

          • Dv 13.1.2.1.1
            20 December 2017 at 12:31 pm

            Ha better than Key, interesting.
            Nope his party polled height, but adern higher as preferred PM
            And over 50 % don’t want the Nat.
            Ok what are the House car and car wort?

          • ropata 13.1.2.1.2
            20 December 2017 at 3:10 pm

            Do you vote based on an ethical framework at all? Or are you just voting to entrench your privilege/inflate your property values/drive a gas guzzler?

          • ropata 13.1.2.1.3
            20 December 2017 at 4:12 pm

            PS: 100% wrong about the popularity of Ardern over English… I am amazed at how much BS the typical Nat supporter believes

            RNZ Poll of Polls:
            https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/345867/poll-voters-broadly-say-yes-to-new-government

            The latest averages represent roughly a 2% swap from National to the government since the election.

            That is no big bounce, but Labour was up in all three polls to almost exactly the same reading in each.

            Another measure suggests that voters are comfortable with the arrangement. All three polls ask if voters think the country is heading in the right direction or on the wrong track. Morgan recorded 66.5% positive to 20% negative, UMR 65%-17% and 1 News Colmar Brunton 51%-26%.

            These are substantially higher than before the election.

            And Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern had a clear lead over National leader Bill English in all three polls as preferred prime minister or in positive-v-negative ratings.

            One News Colmar Brunton:
            https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/ardern-says-voters-hopeful-after-1-news-poll-shows-labour-missing-traditional-post-election-boost-in-support

            In the preferred Prime Minister stakes, however, Ms Ardern is on 37 per cent – well ahead of rival Bill English on 28 per cent.

            The poll also asked New Zealanders whether they thought the current government is heading in the right or wrong direction.

            Fifty-one per cent felt it was going in the right direction while 26 per cent said the wrong direction and 23 per cent didn’t know.

            To be honest Tanz, you are firmly in the “Don’t Know” category on most topics.

    • Macro 13.2
      19 December 2017 at 9:57 pm

      But the P***y grabber says it’s a hoax – so it must be true.

      • srylands 13.2.1
        20 December 2017 at 12:45 pm

        What is a party grabber?

        • Andre 13.2.1.1
          20 December 2017 at 12:48 pm

          Don Brash is a good example – he’s grabbed two of them. For all the good it did him. And them.

          • cleangreen 13.2.1.1.1
            21 December 2017 at 6:45 am

            100% Andre,
            Another was Bob Jones, these cretins we dont need anymore so labour/NZF/Greens; – ‘lets do this’

        • Macro 13.2.1.2
          20 December 2017 at 2:26 pm

          Trump is a good example – He grabbed the GOP and is riding it into oblivion.
          But the *** represents “uss” not “art”. And grabbing them is not an art – it is an offence. To date there have been 18 allegations made against him, and he has even boasted of it on tape. -Now he is is trying to deny that tape – just as he tries to deny AGW. But for Tanz and her ilk everything the chump does is AOK with them. If he says that he didn’t do it – well there you go – he didn’t do it. And if he says that the $1B tax break he has given himself for xmas is good for her as well – well then it must be true. And if he says that climate change is a hoax – well then it is a hoax, and all those who say it isn’t don’t know what they are talking about.

    • Ed 13.3
      19 December 2017 at 10:03 pm

      People who knew about the Holocaust and denied it are now considered to be complicit in the deaths of many.
      Knowingly denying climate change, thereby delaying any action to mitigate and limit its impacts, will mean the deaths of millions of humans.
      That is why what morans like Tanz should lose their airtime.
      In World War 2, Goebbels didn’t get a say on the BBC.

    • Incognito 13.4
      19 December 2017 at 10:05 pm

      It is good to be reminded that there are people out there who see things differently and we may tolerate the intolerable. That said, my impression is that they conflate climate change with taxes and if so, they would do a complete U-turn the day they get promised tax cuts in favour of supporting climate change.

      • Anne 13.4.1
        19 December 2017 at 10:11 pm

        Its not a case of ‘seeing things differently’ because that gives their ignorant rantings a degree of credence. There is rarely any credence in what these “flat earthers” have to say and their wilful refusal to listen to reason is a waste of space and time.

        • Incognito 13.4.1.1
          19 December 2017 at 10:30 pm

          I don’t agree that it gives them “credence” and I do think that they have a right (!) to be ignorant as well as the right to communicate this to others. If they choose to remain ignorant (deaf & blind), so be it; we cannot force them … Once you start drawing subjective lines for what can and cannot be said and try to enforce these we are entering dangerous territory of exclusion, separation & division IMHO.

      • Ed 13.4.2
        19 December 2017 at 10:13 pm

        Some people saw Belsen and Treblinka differently.
        We despised them for that view.
        We defeated them at war.
        And tried them.

        • Incognito 13.4.2.1
          19 December 2017 at 10:57 pm

          Hmmm, it is a bit of a leap from war and war crimes to showing one’s ignorance about climate change, don’t you think? I’d call it for what it is: false equivalence.

          For some reason, people who tolerate the intolerable and (strongly) support free speech often get accused of defending the indefensible when things get a little complicated and heated. FWIW, I’m not defending the comments by Tanz, but I am defending their right to make these comments; they are entirely separate things!

          • ropata 13.4.2.1.1
            20 December 2017 at 12:11 am

            +1 also, Tanz is engaged enough to comment, that’s making a nonzero effort, so there’s a chance she might learn something. How boring would this blog be if we banned anyone deemed obnoxious.

    • cleangreen 13.5
      20 December 2017 at 6:40 am

      100% Anne, these “national trolls’ are murders of our people and our future and should be treated as criminals.

      • srylands 13.5.1
        20 December 2017 at 6:53 am

        You know you sound like a character from Animal Farm, right?

        • cleangreen 13.5.1.1
          20 December 2017 at 8:45 am

          Srylands,
          I direct you back to my response to you on 11.6 my response is compelling is on 11.6,1
          perhaps you can moderate your use of “ridicule of disabled persons”?

          you are breaching Human Rights codes for the disabled ; – Infringement of our human rights ‘dignity’ there.

          • srylands 13.5.1.1.1
            20 December 2017 at 12:46 pm

            I have no idea what you are on about.

          • red-blooded 13.5.1.1.2
            20 December 2017 at 1:46 pm

            cleangreen, srylands can be extreme and I almost never agree with him/her, but frankly, I don’t see anything earlier up the thread that could be construed as anti-human rights or anti-disabled. (And I live with a permanent disability and can – if anything – be over-sensitive on this stuff.)

            Plus, all your demands for people who have different values and opinions from you to be “treated as criminals”, fired (your comments on the thread about RNZ), prosecuted etc make you sound disturbingly like someone at a Trump rally (“Lock her up! Lock her up!”).

            Now, back to the actual point that’s meant to be under discussion: The issue is the new government’s approach to climate change. I think we need to start by acknowledging that they’re actually making this a priority and doing things like establishing legal benchmarks and an independent climate commission – both good moves to help hold future governments, as well as themselves, to account. As for the comments about mining permits, I think we should wait and see how this pans out. If they simply declared a ban, I’m pretty sure that would run up against legal issues (trade agreements etc). If they say it’s case-by-case, then the test will be seeing which (if any) new applications actually get approval, and on what grounds. James Shaw has made it clear he’ll be advising against any new applications, and Ardern will have known this when she appointed him as Climate Change Minister.

            I might be wrong, but I’m relatively hopeful.

            • cleangreen 13.5.1.1.2.1
              20 December 2017 at 4:03 pm

              Oh thank you yes Red blooded did you get chemical poisoning?

              You should have seen this as the focus of why we as Chemically poisoned do understand/appreciate the ‘impacts’ all these VOC’s are causing both to our climate change and to us and our environment.
              Srylands is known to us from the 2014 election cycle so no point advising of his/hers lack of humility and compassion.

              If you was unfortunately poisoned by chemicals in the workplace as happened to me, I would feel assured that you grasp where our discussion lies here?

              As anyone who suffered such heavy chemical poisoning (as I did) and develops a lifelong disability that virtually prevents me from entering anywhere outside a “safe home chemical free environment from the time of injury.

              To grasp this point was my point of discussion that increasing exposure to “climate changing emissions” that are in fact the same groups of chemicals that us chemical poisoned disabled people cannot be exposed to.

              If you are similarly heavily sensitised with a list of medical conditions related to chemical exposure perhaps then you know where people with what is termed the “21st century disease” but we may forgive you if you are not familiar with this permanent chronic disease as even the Ministry of health in NZ has no policy on any treatment protocols for this.
              I was fortunate that some brave doctors in Canada & US do have vast knowledge of this disability and was given some treatments before returning to NZ.

              Back to the question in hand “new government’s approach to climate change”

              What is the government doing about Climate change?

              First they need to send folks from the Ministry for climate change with the ministry for the environment ‘workshops’ around the country as labour did in 2002-4.

              As giving solid “inclusion” they also must invite the local NGO’s and public groups to attend these workshops not just the local councils as we are wary of them at present.

              This way their Climate change panel and environment panels all will learn of all the ‘real local impacts those communities are experiencing.’ not some doctored reports’ as we have seen to many of these in our 16yrs as an NGO for community environment & health.

              Our Environmental advocacy centre was invited to attend two of these Climate change & environmental workshops during that time in Napier (2003) and we had just completed a one yr ‘air quality study’ ourselves with assistance/peer reviewed from two senior air quality agencies, NIWA and Watercare, and our press release was featured in the Dominion Post march 10th 2003 headlined as “Pollution regularly exceeds guidelines”

              My role in this study was earmarked by our local regional HB regional Council as a watershed event.

              Yes we need to be involved with the Government over climate change so “inclusion” is the word we are advocating for our involvement red blooded.
              Remember we are part of the environment as stayed in the RMA and we need inclusion on those effects we will all suffer from the increasing amounts of “pollution and climate change emissions” entering into our bodies as we speak.

              Unfortunately people such as us with highly sensitised chemical effects are beginning to feel the effects now becoming worse every month and year. CO2 levels and other volatile organic chemicals are entering our air in ever increasing amounts as we speak.

              Multiple chemical sensitivity (MCS) is real, and no-one knows this more than those of us who have had for many years and never leaves us.

              Several countries US, Canada, Australia, Germany are some but NZ is not yet there, so we need to alert the general population and this government that as time goes on more and more of us will fall victim to this disease as air pollution increases with climate change be rest assured.

              • ropata …
                20 December 2017 at 4:45 pm

                Nope, no more workshops and fucking around. Implement the Paris agreement and legislate to cut carbon emissions immediately to levels our scientists say is acceptable. Planting 1 billion trees is a step in the right direction, as is investing in rail and other PT. Cut tourism (massive carbon footprint from globetrotters) and reduce immigration to sustainable levels. Massively increase funding to MPI inspectors and other environment watchdogs that the Nats have mindlessly abolished. Subsidise efficient home heating and insulation solutions. NZ should normalise its petrol taxes against Europe or other places where driving is disincentivised. Implement punitive import tarriffs to shut down the huge influx of motor vehicles clogging our public spaces. Promote cycling and walking everywhere.

                • cleangreen …
                  20 December 2017 at 5:07 pm

                  ropata yes we would agree to your fast tracking of legislation.

                  But if it is not made as you wish, my point is to have us all included in the ‘Planning of the policy’.

                  Already Red blooded seems to favour this ;

                  Quote ” I think we need to start by acknowledging that they’re actually making this a priority and doing things like establishing legal benchmarks and an independent climate commission”

                  But that doesnt involve our voices and could be held in Holland or USA who knows.

                  As if we are bypassed and the government just uses “consultants” you and us all risk loosing to a weakened watered down policy that does not include the people us that are all affected by beaurocrats desisions made behind closed doors as the TPP11 was.

                  So it must be ‘inclussive of all peoples’ who share this land and who will suffer if they make the wrong decisions.

                  Inclussion means our views are taken regard of and oplaced in the planning documents as a historic event to use in future as ‘insurance’.

                  • ropata …
                    20 December 2017 at 5:25 pm

                    Tangata Whenua definitely have a right to be included and respected, and I’m pretty sure that Kelvin Davis and the Maori members of Labour/Green will ensure that is the case.

                    But our democratically elected Government still has a mandate to “do this” without unnecessary delay from vested interests such as farmers and transport lobbyists.

              • red-blooded …
                20 December 2017 at 5:56 pm

                cleangreen, I’m not doubting the reality of your condition (which sounds awful) – all I said was that I didn’t see anything said by syrlands that attacked the disabled in any way. I still don’t. You claimed that he/she was breaking human rights laws. Maybe you two have history that helps to give context to your claim, but nothing said in this thread justifies it.

                As regards your desire for local workshops, hey – it may be that this happens again (it’s very early days for this government, remember). I’m not convinced that it’s necessary, though. For one thing, Labour has done it before (as you pointed out). For another, there’s plenty of information and I’d argue that there’s plenty of buy-in for action on climate change, too. Let’s do it.

                • cleangreen …
                  20 December 2017 at 6:39 pm

                  Shit red blooded ;

                  Dont let labour of the hook here, and not keep Labour’s pledges we voted for.

                  Which was ; quote;
                  Jacinda said on several occasions; – ‘every citizen will have a voice and be heard as we are going to have an “inclusive”, caring, kinder, transperant government”.

                  We wrote to Jacinda in advance requesting her to include these in her government’s promises, and so far with TPP11 and this Climate change panel we are yet to see them kept.

                  We need to see those promises kept.

                  Thanks for acknowledging my disabilities.

                  I can tell you it was sheer hell for all of my family then with two young kids and wife in another country when I after six months in a large Toronto building without ventilation for six months was struck down with this injury, and no one knew what it was then.

                  As everyone in Napier who knew me before my family left our shores working in Canada, saw me as a go getter, highly motivated, talented, electrician with a young family.

                  But after I lost my ability to work and sing country music at Nashville my life was over.

                  And really I was only saved by two special people as doctors who fought to save me, one in Florida one in Toronto, and after “big pharma” and the repective medical college’s marfia tried to close their practice’s down for blowing the whistle on chemicals risking their lives/future’s – now you know why I am highly suspicious of the medical ‘establishment’ as I will always owe my life to two fine doctors.

                  Bless them both and thanks for the understanding as we odd injured are always treated as outcasts now. .
                  merry xmas & happy new year keep safe.

  14. cleangreen 14
    21 December 2017 at 7:58 pm

    our last response to the-new-governments-approach-to-climate-change
    this etter was forwarded to the MPs also.

    Public COMMUNITY letter;
    21st December 2017.

    Dear Ministers, Physics discussion.
    Climate change.

    Please consider this physics discussion we are having on the climate change situation and some steps you can use to control emissions.

    Less chlorine in our water also please, as it is toxic read here.
    Less trucks & more electric rail is required to lessen the emissions of alkenes from internal combustion engines.
    Rail must be used far more here in our regions of HB/Gisborne please.
    (Please read our physics discussion below here we have today on the social media.)

    Warmest regards,

    My blog of the day – on the-new-governments-approach-to-climate-change
    21/12/2017.
    https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2017/12/20/why-being-carbon-neutral-by-2030-is-meaningless-sophistry/

    I so much admire your knowledge AFEWKNOWTHETRUTH.

    “Removing large quantities of carbon dioxide from the atmosphere in a short time is chemically impossible. (It’s all to do with bond energies, entropy and enthalpy, the foundation of chemical reactivity.)”

    This is so correct as there they changes in all chemical structures during weather conditions, in the presence of salt sea spray, and sunlight for example in the presence of certain chemicals such as traces of chlorine.

    The changes in chemical structures is called “substitution reaction” and is the hallmark of learning science and is covered in the “common law of physics” in ‘General Chemistry.’
    “Scientific American” by PW Atkins Oxford University. Page 851

    quote;
    “Substitution reaction is a reaction in which an atom or a group of atoms is substituted for an atom in a reactant molecule”

    For an alkane, The displaced is a hydrogen atom(7)
    An example is the reaction between methane and chorine.
    A mixture of these two substances is stable in the dark but in the sunlight when exposed to ultra-violet radiation or when they are heated they react.

    Their action does not only produce chloromethane but instead leads to a mixture that also contains dichloromethane, and trichloromethane and tetrachloromethane..

    Trichloromethane better known as ‘chloroform’ was one of the early anaesthetics.

    Tetrachloromethane which was commonly called ‘carbon tetrachloride’ as been used as a solvent and in fire extinguishers however the realisation that it is toxic has limited its use.” unquote.

    So we are in a real pickle now are we not, and we all need to get serious before we all are toxic and poisoned as I was 25yrs ago.

    Less trucks & more electric rail is required to lessen the emissions of alkenes from internal combustion engines.

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