Towards a metric for Prime Ministerial decision-making

Written By: - Date published: 10:37 am, August 21st, 2012 - 72 comments
Categories: afghanistan, Minister for Overseas Holidays - Tags:

So, a pre-planned trip to watch a son’s baseball and a week’s holiday in the States is more important than attending 2 soldiers’ funerals. But attending 3 soldiers’ funerals outranks attending the Pacific Island Forum attended by the region’s leaders. A question for the reader: how many Little League games beats a pull aside with Julia Gillard on boat people?

And, if you don’t know what I’m talking about, check out these very powerful and sad comments from one of the soldiers killed yesterday about Key’s decision to miss the funeral of the previous two soldiers killed:

One of the New Zealand soldiers killed in Afghanistan yesterday had slammed Prime Minister John Key just days before his death for not attending the funeral service of two slain soldiers.

Corporal Luke Tamatea, 31, and colleagues Lance Corporal Jacinda Baker, 26, and Private Richard Harris, 21, died when their Humvee was hit by a bomb at 9.20am on Sunday (4.50pm NZT).

Less than two weeks before his death, Tamatea posted criticism of Key on Facebook over the Prime Minister’s decision not to attend the funeral service of Lance Corporals Pralli Durrer and Rory Malone, who died earlier this month.

The 26-year-olds, who were part of the same deployment as the latest soldiers to die, were killed by insurgents in Bamiyan Province on August 4 after a fierce three-minute gun fight.

Key was not in attendance at Malone’s and Durrer’s funeral on August 11 as he had a pre-arranged trip to the United States to watch his son Max play in the first New Zealand under-17 baseball team to ever play in the World Series.

Tamatea posted on his Facebook page on August 9: “If i was a leader of a country i would attend the funerals of our fallen soldiers….. i wouldnt be at a f****** baseball game!!”

He then commented on August 10: “Baseball….. i think i have a new sport i hate.”

The Prime Minister earlier said going to his son’s baseball game instead of attending the funeral service was a “difficult decision”.

“I’ve got to let somebody down, but my son makes huge sacrifices for me and my job,” Key said.

Key has said today that he will attend the funerals of the latest soldiers to die even if it clashes with Pacific Island Forum.

72 comments on “Towards a metric for Prime Ministerial decision-making”

  1. Dr Terry 1

    Oh yes, after the flak he received last time, he will attend hell or high water!! He cannot risk letting his popularity stakes slip. Who is responsible for sending soldiers to that corrupt country in order to risk their lives for America? I hardly need to tell you.

    • chris73 1.1

      Labour under the auspices of the UN and carried on by National

      • Kotahi Tāne Huna 1.1.1

        Earth to Chris – Labour are no longer the government. As explained here yesterday.

        • chris73 1.1.1.1

          Reality to Kotahi. Did you perhaps not read the part of the sentence that said “carried on by National”

          What part of what I wrote is incorrect?

          Did Labour first send the troops to Afghanistan: Yes
          Was it under the UN: Yes
          Has it been followed on by National: Yes
          Am I criticizing Labour for sending troops in the first place: No (I agree with the troops being there and I believe they shouldn’t be brought home early)

    • Tom Gould 1.2

      Why has no one taken issue with Key equating the “sacrifice” his boy has made for his career with the “sacrifice” of a fallen soldier in a war zone? Disgraceful.

      • Hami Shearlie 1.2.1

        Just what I’ve been thinking Tom. For Key to have the gall to mention the word “sacrifice” in connection with his own son is laughable and really sick. When others have lost their beloved children in Afghanistan FOREVER, it is outrageous and insulting for Key to claim that Max Key makes sacrifices!! Is this the same Max Key who lives in a mansion complete with huge pool, (and games room and media room no doubt), goes to a very expensive private school in NZ, and has several holidays in Hawaii every year? No-one I know could say something so unbelievably crass and unfeeling – not to mention STUPID!! Maybe Key is channelling Whaleoil these days!!!

    • Rupert the Beer 1.3

      What flak?

  2. Roy 2

    “…how many Little League games beats a pull aside with Julia Gillard on boat people?”
    Hard to say. It’s a dinnamic situation, doncha know.

  3. chris73 3

    http://www.3news.co.nz/Three-Kiwi-soldiers-dead-in-Afghanistan/tabid/423/articleID/265979/Default.aspx#ixzz243uTzRS5

    R.D wrote:

    As a former NZ infantry soldier and having deployed to Afghanistan I believe I can comment on this thread. This year alone I have lost 4 friends in Afghanistan, having served closely with 3 of them, most recently Corporal Tamatea. As sad as the situation is the consensus among all my mates still serving is that the last thing they want is to be withdrawn from theatre. As far as they’re concerned they have a job to do and a duty to uphold which they haven’t fulfilled. To them, 2013 is to soon to come out.

    All this talk about John Key having no respect? He went to the homes of my friends(Durrer and Malone) and offered his personal condolences then, remember he also has a family and an obligation to them.

    Ask anybody serving now and they’ll tell you that’s how they feel.

    On backing Labour because they would prefer that our troops were withdrawn sooner rather than later. We were sent in by labour in the first place, I served in Afghanistan under a Labour government.

    In summary, as soldiers they know the risks of deploying to such environments as Afghanistan, they know there is a chance they could pay the ultimate price. As a former infantryman I know that Luke would be happy that he died doing what he loved to do- soldiering. He was an excellent operator, with exceptional “soldier skills”. Today there are a lot of heavy hearts in the NZDF because of this tragedy. Mourn for them and their families, and pray that nothing else happens to the rest of our brave men and women serving there but know that they would all rather be there making a difference than here. All my currently serving friends want to deploy to do there part(some again).

    This is what others feel as well.

    • Tiger Mountain 3.1

      Sadly deceased Corporal Luke seems to make his views about Key pretty clear here.
      http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/7516169/Killed-soldier-criticised-PMs-funeral-no-show

      ShonKey usually doesn’t like to “rule it in, or rule it out” but he seems to be able to with soldiers funerals, kids baseball and Pacific Forums.

    • prism 3.2

      The ability of soldiers to carry on is determined by their determination to stick to the mission and not question it. In the World Wars people who lost their ability to carry on fighting were severely dealt with. I wonder what would happen now?

      It is hard for an individual to have a flash of alternative thinking, such as what the hell is this about/for? Any withdrawal from the plan means he/she is letting down comrades who rely on each other. So they mourn losses and carry on. That’s their job and theirs not to reason why, theirs just to do or die. They have trained for it and believe that they are making a useful contribution. The intentions and actions can be very noble. I just hope that we can bring back all left stay alive and in at least reasonable health, and return soon for good.

      A speaker on radionz this morning said that we shouldn’t be taking on patrolling outside our location. I think he first considered this dangerous with too much risk ratio to return, and that we would not be able to achieve anything worthwhile, and that it wouldn’t make our own location safer to pursue further away, and that the area was near enough to the border for men and weapons to be able to retaliate against any strikes made further away. That’s how I heard it anyway.

    • Murray Olsen 3.3

      I somehow doubt that the TV3 News piece was actually written by an infantry soldier. It has the style and sentimentality of someone working in PR all over it.

    • prism 3.4

      chris 73
      Who is RD? A relative, friend? Where did you see the piece?

  4. vto 4

    .
    Could this be the defining moment for Mr Useless?

  5. Richard 5

    This sort of post is why no one has any respect for this site. Disgusting.

    • deano 5.1

      Key did decide that watccing a children’s baseball game was more important than soldiers’ funerals.

      Now, he’s decided that soldiers’ funderals are more important than a major international conference.

      It’s valid to point out the inconsistency.

    • Bored 5.2

      And who, Richard is this no one?

    • tc 5.3

      Speak for yourself Richard and exercise your democratic right to stay away if it offends you so much.

    • Kotahi Tāne Huna 5.4

      An authoritarian lemming. Repugnant.

    • Te Reo Putake 5.5

      The thousands of daily page views and hundreds of daily comments disagree with you, Richard. Could I recommend you try YourNZ instead? That’s a site dedicated to dissecting everything that is wrong with the Standard; you’ll feel right at home there.
       
      And now, a word from Woody Allen:
       
      “There’s an old joke – two elderly women are at a Catskill mountain resort, and one of them says, “Boy, the food at this place is really terrible.”
       
      The other one says, “Yeah, I know; and such small portions.”

      • weka 5.5.1

        Hey, PG is good for something after all!

        • Te Reo Putake 5.5.1.1

          Yeah, gotta feel sorry for Pete. Since his banning he’s been fixated with TS and hardly has room to post on anything else. Sadly, since Pete started playing the race card on the site a few weeks ago, the rather thin comments section is now dominated by the happy go lucky racist John Ansell, who must sense a kindred spirit in PG.

          • chris73 5.5.1.1.1

            Poor form slagging someone whos not allowed to defend themselves.

            • lprent 5.5.1.1.1.1

              He isn’t exactly constrained about being able to defend himself – he has his own blog site, and any number of other ones that he can use.

              He just can’t respond it here because he wastes moderators valuable and voluntary time. We expect people to learn from their previous errors, just like you did (I seem to remember giving you a few warnings and a single ban long ago). He didn’t.

              I’m afraid that I have a low toleration in having to repeat myself. Doing it to the same person too frequently as they try to explore the boundaries of the permissible reeks far too much of hand-holding to me. I’m afraid that I don’t like acting as judge delineating the bounds of the law and social behaviour..

              I’d do it for a child, but not for an purported adult.

              I have been letting through the trackbacks to his whine posts in case people want to voluntarily subject themselves to a ‘debate’. Of course it causes problems with having an interactive debate if people don’t go there. But he is rather fond of not listening much anyway.

            • Te Reo Putake 5.5.1.1.1.2

              Er, he’s got an option for that, Chris. It’s called YourNZ (see comments above). And he still has a wee cry on the sewer from time to time.
               
              It’s hardly my fault that Pete can’t post here, is it? If he hadn’t got his well deserved ban, we’d still be plagued with his inanities from sunrise to sunset. Now we just have to settle for teasing his intellectual inferiors, such as your good self.

            • felix 5.5.1.1.1.3

              Fuck Pete George, he had a couple of years commenting here in which he could have decided to conduct himself honestly and he failed miserably to do so at every turn.

              Fuck him and the Tory Horse he rode in on.

    • Colonial Viper 5.6

      This sort of post is why no one has any respect for this site. Disgusting.

      I always laugh at how easily people like Richard are “disgusted”. And the BS reasons they come up with for it.

      Instead of say something real…like the leader of a country ignoring his duty to those who have paid NZ the ultimate service.

    • prism 5.7

      Thanks Richard. Your comment is important to us.

    • David H 5.8

      Horseshit I have immense respect for the authors and participants on this site.. Trolls and eejuts well…

    • fisiani 5.9

      People pop on to this site to see if if it can possibly sink any lower. Using such sad events to attack John Key, The Prime Minister of New Zealand hits yet another low.
      I think of The Standard as merely the Limbo Blog of the Left.
      Posters actually believe that the lower they go they win……
      I keep waiting for some genuine posts on improving life in New Zealand.
      The economy has been steered off the rocks, the brighter future beckons.
      We have the best PM and Finance Minister in at least 50 years.

  6. Glg 6

    Three dead soldiers (and one of them a woman, as the press feels it needs to remind us) outranks one live (also a woman) Aussie PM. Since there was time to attend previous funerals and his sons games, I can only assume either he couldn’t be buggered changing his plane tickets (and considering his love of good PR one might think this unlikely) or, as someone tweeted, perhaps he had scheduled some overseas meetings with his American overlords as well. I bet John boy got a bit of a spanking over the Kim Dotcom issue, perhaps he was taking advance orders for our asset sales.
    Don’t worry, maybe he will make up for it by squeezing out a tear this time.

  7. Anne 7

    how many Little League games beats a pull aside with Julia Gillard on boat people?

    I suspect the real reason he didn’t change his schedule and attend the memorial service is because he had a pre-arranged pull aside prior to the start of the baseball tournament concerning his future ‘career’ post prime-minister of NZ.

  8. bad12 8

    My advice to anyone serving in Afghanistan would be to neither post criticism of any of those ‘in command’ or details of any of what happens on the ground in Afghanistan on the internet,

    In war the truth goes out the window first, there is at least 2 good reasons with reference to historical events that have me proffering such advice…

    • RedBlooded 8.1

      A very good point, because also Paula “Basher” Bennett will be sent to “leak” all your personal details over the media.

      • bad12 8.1.1

        Aha, there are 2 wars currently being waged in Afghanistan, the first being the ‘straight’ war where there is an enemy, the Taliban, to be defeated in the name of democracy,apple pie, big Mac’s, coca cola and all things that glitter as if made of gold,

        The second, the Opium war, is an ongoing struggle between the multi-factions involved in the international trade in Heroin,

        The combatants in the second war may also be involved on either side of the first conflict, sometimes being involved on behalf of both sides at the same time, just as ‘for political reasons’ US ground troops have found themselves guarding Opium crops on behalf of the growers who are in turn providing both intelligence and active military support to the US in other areas of the conflict,

        There are then also the ‘regional conflicts’ to have to consider, where part of the International force interacts with the local population from province to province in totally differing models of engagement,

        In such a conflict, an armed contingent such as say the Kiwi’s may seem to have got involved in an effort to back up the armed police of the regime as they attempted to ‘arrest’ a bomb-maker, as the current fairy-tale would have us all believe, (as if bomb-makers take up residence in the local suburb putting out their shingle of business and thus inviting arrest),

        In reality tho, the regime police are just as likely to have been attempting to ‘arrest’ the head of a contingent of local smugglers for not having paid their ‘tick’ bill having been supplied the product, (Heroin),and duly smuggled this into Pakistan while not paying the supplier and thus New Zealand troops may have been caught up in the second part of the Afghan conflict as opposed to the first,

        It is obvious from the nature of the conflict in Afghanistan that ‘the locals’ are fully aware of the nuances of commitment of the various international forces operating within their differing tribal areas and seem to have been treating the New Zealand contingent appropriately up to this point as being in place for the first reason, that of the defeat of the Taliban and the installation of democracy, big macs and stuff,

        Which brings us to the recent use of the roadside bombs,(i use the word bombs as there appears to have been 2 of them), the obvious assumption is that angered by the New Zealand intervention in what ‘the locals’ see as none of their business and the casualties ‘these locals’ have suffered as a result of this intervention revenge has been extracted via the use of the 2 roadside devices,(a common tool as 10,000 or so of them are set each year in Afghanistan),

        That’s the ‘logical explanation’ but in war logic like the truth goes out the window as fast as the bath water along with the baby in the next explosive drone strike ordered and watched by the Prez thousands of kilometers away, and if i wish to slip for a moment into such insanity where there is little logic less truth and honor is something bandied about by TV commentators we may assume that, and i only go here with the advice that our Prime Minister ‘shut His f**king mouth’, that the bomb that killed the 3 Kiwi soldiers was made and sourced in the neighbouring Baghlan Province and although there is nothing to suggest this, (except the insanity of war), may have been an actual answer to an implication made by out very own Prime Minister about others serving in that theatre,

        Yes, i am the first to agree,that the above is way past a little far fetched, but then, how far fetched is it to have Kiwi soldiers serving in a conflict which upon the surface has some stated aim of democratization as the intended out-come while all around them a different war centered upon control of the Global Heroin trade is being waged and while the Kiwi’s might know in what war they are engaged telling just who is engaged in what war is impossible…

        • bad12 8.1.1.1

          And as a PS:, i am lead back to my original comment about those who have or are serving at present in Afghanistan, where my advice is to say as little as possible about events on the ground and about those who direct such warfare right up to the office of Prime Minister,

          There are the reported ‘facebook’ comments, and then there are stories told within my own family where both uncles,fathers and grandfathers served in various conflicts, there is an underlying commentary where those who died ‘could have’ been so proscribed by those in powerful positions from the level of Battalion right on down to the company they served and even to the individual,

          That’s a bold assertion made without ‘factual’ basis except for the discourse in our family of those who served in previous wars and feel free to slag me off for making it…

  9. gobsmacked 9

    I don’t have a problem with Key going to watch his son play baseball in the USA. As has been pointed out numerous times, he could have done that AND gone to the memorial service. But he didn’t.

    I do have a problem with Key using the word “huge sacrifices”, to describe his son’s life. That’s an appalling choice of words. Going to King’s College isn’t a “huge sacrifice”. Dying is.

    And I have a big problem with anyone (like Richard) who fakes “disgust” when this is pointed out.

    • Murray Olsen 9.1

      When I was at school, gobsmacked, and we played rugby against King’s College, there were often “huge sacrifices” on their side. Of course, this was back in the days before the “elite” schools offered academic scholarships to giant sized South Aucklanders who just happened to play rugby.

  10. tracey 11

    maybe but dont under estimate the problems young men with absentee fathers go through. his son hasnt made the sacrifices his fathers choices have .

  11. Populuxe1 12

    For the record I think Key should have attended the funerals, but I think it’s bullshit to attack someone in the public eye for being a good father, and now that I know he went to the families and gave his personal condolences I am perfectly satisfied Key’s duty was discharged. Key has made many peripheral fubars around these events – more silly than evil – by all means continue to cover yourselves in ordure, but it really doesn’t look pretty.

    • Tracey 12.1

      Actually he seemed to be admitting to being a bad father… Mr key used his fatherhood as an excuse to avoid funerals he had previously been “happy” to attend, with press gallery in tow. He is the leader of the nation first and a parent second. IF he wanted it another way, he stood for the wrong position.

  12. Anne 13

    ….I think it’s bullshit to attack someone in the public eye for being a good father,

    Nobody is attacking him for being a good father. What they are attacking him for is:

    the timeline between the memorial service and his son’s first game (three days) meant he could easily have attended both.

    He saw the families because he hoped to avoid criticism by doing so… not because he particularly wanted to see them. It’s pretty obvious he had a pre-arranged appointment ahead of his son’s game which didn’t have anything to do with the running of the country. So he embarked upon a load of tripe about his son’s supposed “sacrifices” as an excuse for not being at the service.

    • Sid Holland 13.1

      What an [sid – don’t start your first comment here with nasty personal abuse, thanks. r0b] you really are Anne. What makes you say he didn’t particularly want to see the families?

      • Anne 13.1.1

        Your problem Sid Holland if you can’t face the truth. I never said John Key did not feel sympathy for the families, but it doesn’t exonerate him one iota from making the call that he did. He had to visit the families for political reasons.

        Your pseudonym would seem appropriate.

        It was the former NZ prime minister, Sid Holland who tried to break the spirit of ordinary working people in 1951. The blood ran in the streets! He used the state apparatus to injure and destroy all those who stood up to him. He was a bully. Interesting that all the prime ministerial bullies we have had the misfortune to endure in this country have been from the National Party.

  13. terryg 14

    I dont seem to recall Afghanistan launching a war of aggression against NZ. Which IMO gives us no mandate whatsoever to be there.

    In which case I am unable to care on bit about the deaths of nz soldiers there.

    Did these fools not read their employment contracts?

    Unless defending ones country against wars of aggression, soldiers are part of the problem – these are people who decide to get paid to kill when ordered to, without asking why.

    [last comment deleted – way over the top. r0b]

    • Sid Holland 14.1

      So I can’t call Anne mean spirited about her comment but Terry’s one about [deleted] is entirely reasonable?

      [You called Anne much more than that. But you are correct that Terry’s last comment went way too far. r0b]

      • felix 14.1.1

        I agree Sid, terryg’s last sentence is pretty poor taste (at best).

        However, I can’t fault the reasoning of the rest of his/her comment. Can you?

        Why are we waging war on Afghanistan? When did we decide to be an aggressor?

        • Sid Holland 14.1.1.1

          I’m not convinced we are waging war on Afghanistan, Felix. It’s predominantly a peacekeeping force but I wouldn’t expect them to turn the other cheek when attacked. I don’t recall Nazi Germany launching a war of aggression against NZ, or the Boers, North Koreans and North Vietnamese but our soldiers went there as well – as an Allied partner. While the Green Party defence policy probably consists of growing a large hedge, in the real world you have to pull your weight and we can be justifiably proud of the actons of our men and women in overseas conflicts – both in combat and peacekeeping. Never forget kiwi’s are targets for terrorism; be it on the battlefield or a tropical island resort.
          Terry is right though – joining the army is not remotely similar to Volunteer Service Abroad and our soldiers accept that there are risks in being deployed.

          • felix 14.1.1.1.1

            “I don’t recall N@zi Germany launching a war of aggression against NZ.”

            Sorry, I’m not quite following your mental leap there. Are you saying Afghanistan has declared war on one of our allies?

            And if so, who?

            • Populuxe1 14.1.1.1.1.1

              I’m sorry – did you miss the bit where Al-Qaida flew two passenger jets into the WTC etc etc, declared war on the west, and then went and hid with the Taliban in dum-dum-DUM Afgahnistan?
              Of course, you might be a Truther…

              • mike e

                Popuganda So GW bush used a sledge hammer to crack a walnut and look how its turned out.
                Shoot first and ask questions later, watching to many old westerns.
                Why not just volunteer for service in afghanistan their are plenty of soldiers of fortune their already nothing stopping you.
                Blindly following like a sheep.

              • felix

                Oh yeah I remember now, it was all about catching a guy in a cave in Afghanistan. Bin Liner or something.

                Guess once they catch him it’ll all be over and we can pull out.

                Of Afghanistan.

          • fatty 14.1.1.1.2

            ‘Peacekeeping’ is nothing more than code for a neo-colonial pawn. NZ soldiers are just in another phase of combat and we use the term peacekeeping to make ourselves feel better. Rebuilding bridges and hospitals is a key part of modern day war…we build them so the Afghan leaders will side with the USA and resources can be secured.

            • Populuxe1 14.1.1.1.2.1

              Ooooooooh Imperialism! THINK OF THE CHILDREN!
              Peace is not, as it turns out, the natural default state of humankind – it’s just a highly desirable one.
              Tellingly, however, widescale peace has only ever been brought about by imperialism as easily demonstrated by Pax Romana and various other examples. It might not fit your fantasy of rainbow-pooping unicorns, but it’s the pragmatic fact

              • fatty

                Populuxe1…is that a response to my post @4.47, or did you put it in the wrong place?
                I’m unsure of what point you are challenging, and what point you are trying to make

                • Populuxe1

                  No fatty – it’s the right place. I’m mocking your assumption that peace just ‘happens’. Peace inevitably has to be enforced by one means of imperialism or another. You say “neo-colonial pawn” and wring your hands, I say “strategic defence relationship” and think of the big picture.

                  • fatty

                    “I’m mocking your assumption that peace just ‘happens’.”
                    Now I see why I was confused….you are mocking an assumption that I never made.

                    “You say “neo-colonial pawn” and wring your hands”
                    I also don’t remember wringing my hands.

                    “Peace inevitably has to be enforced by one means of imperialism or another”
                    This is your only sentence that is remotely coherent, and its only saved by the last 2 words.

                    Have you been drinking? Knocked you head or something?

            • McFlock 14.1.1.1.2.2

              ya gotta admit that “we had to build infrastructure and heal the sick in order to take the country” as a few light-years on from “we had to destroy the village in order to save it”.

              • fatty

                no, I consider them the same, but you worded the first one nicely by forgetting to mention that destruction comes first.
                they are both destroy, then rebuild

                • McFlock

                  Um – Afghanistan was already bust. Soviet invasion and civil wars will do that.

                  • fatty

                    What do you mean “Afghanistan was already bust”?

                    The US bombed the hell out of the place. Just cause their schools didn’t have a science wing, or a computer lab, it doesn’t mean its OK to destroy it, and then put up something ‘better’.
                    People’s identity’s were tied to those places, regardless of what occurred in past invasions, and regardless of how ‘limited’ their schools, towns etc may seem to us. Their place, their home, their life, and their identity is worth no less or more than ours. I don’t think we can justify bombing a place cause we rebuild it ‘better’?
                    (if that’s what you were implying)

    • terryg 14.2

      censorious asshat. I stand by that comment. unless defending ones country against a war of aggression (should it occur I’d volunteer in a heartbeat), soldiers are a menace – they are, after all, nothing more than hired killers (in exactly the same way that police are hired thugs).

      It can be a tragedy for a member of the military to die – eg the NZRAF folks who died in the helicopter crash last year. It is NOT a tragedy for military personnel to die in combat operations – it quite literally is part of the job. And when there is no justification for the military presence (if you think its justified i’d suggest you study geopolitics a bit harder, we’re really only there to suck up to the US), I fail to see how it can possibly be considered a “bad thing”.

      I’m not surprised at the rah-rah nationalism though, given that this country exalts grown men who play childrens games. morons.

      [lprent: Avoid attacking the moderators or authors of posts personally. I consider it to be a symptom of futile terminal stupidity to attack someone on their own site. Just disagree with authors and say why. Disagreeing with moderators is of course just idiotic. And read the policy – especially those about self-martyrdom offenses.

      Btw: I believe that we were requested to act in Afghanistan by the UN. What limited role that we took in Iraq by the EME’s was also requested by the UN. Ditto Timor. Perhaps you should look up from your geopolitics for long enough to look at the actual politics. ]

      • Populuxe1 14.2.1

        It’s a tragedy when anyone dies, dickhead. Even you.

      • terryg 14.2.2

        thats better than censorious asshattery. I reiterate: there is nothing whatsoever wrong with dead soldiers. Yes its tragic for their families, but what do they expect? hugs from irritated afghanis? here’s a helpful hint: if you dont want being killed to be part of your job description, dont join the military.

        • Populuxe1 14.2.2.1

          Well I can hardly better you in censorious asshattery, because you are clearly my superior in that regard. Defence forces do considerably more than killing people – the NZ Forces in particular prefer to avoid killing people unnecessarily, and of course would be protecting vicious skid marks like you in the event this country was attacked. Our army in particular has long been responsible for reconstruction and aid work in the Pacific and elsewhere.

  14. Anne 15

    I was present at the RNZAF Base Whenuapai at the time of the Bola storm which almost wiped out Hawkes Bay – 1987 I think. I witnessed the planes carrying equipment and soldiers going to and fro 24hrs a day for weeks on end. My admiration and respect for the military rose accordingly.

    Yes, they do far more than killing people.

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    Alone, Alone, All, All, Alone: To argue that the Prime Minister is the victim of her advisers’ failure to keep her informed may offer Jacinda some measure of exoneration – but only at the cost of casting her as a hopeless political ingénue. A star-dusted muppet, whose only purpose is to ...
    11 hours ago
  • Poor quality, poorly educated kiddie ‘Journalists’ spreading fake news
    In times of hysteria about the “World coming to an end” and “rising sea levels” so-called ‘Journalists’ who can barely spell words longer than four letters are having a ball! Though the majority of the Public have worked out that manmade climate change is nothing short of pseudo-science, and the ...
    An average kiwiBy admin@averagekiwi.com
    11 hours ago
  • Chris Trotter on the BFD
    I don't want to give pblicity to certain parts of the internet that are better left to fester in their own irrelevance (I know, a bit like this place) but the listing of Chris Trotter as a 'author' on Cameron Slater's spinoff website, the BFD requires some explanation.Now, I don't ...
    22 hours ago
  • Sex is not a spectrum
    The text below is a Twitter thread by Heather Heying that explains the essence of sexual reproduction and it long evolutionary history. She is an evolutionary biologist and a “professor-in-exile” after she and her husband, Bret Weinstein, stood up to supporters of an enforced “Day of Absence” for white staff and teachers ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    22 hours ago
  • Climate Change: Trees, aviation, and offsets
    With crunch time for new Zealand climate policy approaching, most of the New Zealand media have got on board with a global reporting effort to cover the issue. There's one strand of stories today about polling and what it shows about changing public attitudes to the crisis, but the strand ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 day ago
  • Pissing-Off The Israelis Is A High-Risk Strategy.
    Dangerous Foes: For those readers of Bowalley Road who feel disposed to dismiss any prospect of an Israeli destabilisation of New Zealand politics, the example of the United Kingdom repays close attention. Ever since the election of Jeremy Corbyn as leader of the British Labour Party, the Israelis have sanctioned, funded and ...
    1 day ago
  • Something to go to in Wellington
    Make It 16, the youth-led campaign to lower New Zealand's voting age, is holding an official campaign launch at Parliament this Friday from 16:30. If you'd like to attend, you can register using EventBrite here. ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 day ago
  • A founding member responds to Peace Action Wellington
    by Don Franks It was a lovely sunny Wellington afternoon with blue skies above  the beaches.  In Courtenay Place, political activists packed out a stuffy upstairs room for an important meeting. The assembled pacifists, anarchists, communists and independent young radicals of Peace Action Wellington felt the need for a mission ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    1 day ago
  • “Mistakes and errors”
    Current and former NZDF top brass are being publicly grilled this week by the hit and run inquiry over their public responses to allegations of civilian casualties. Previously, they've claimed there were no casualties, a position which led them to lie to Ministers and to the public. Now, they're saying ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 day ago
  • “Homosexuality is same-sex attraction and relationships, not heterosexuals with delusions of gende...
    by Rafael D. Quiles (gender-critical gay man from Puerto Rico) The writing on the wall is right in people’s faces and people just don’t see it or don’t want to. What could actually possess a heterosexual male to want to feminize himself and claim that he is a lesbian? Because ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    2 days ago
  • Trump: “Where’s my favourite dictator?”
    From the Wall Street Journal:Inside a room of the ornately decorated Hotel du Palais during last month’s Group of Seven summit in Biarritz, France, President Trump awaited a meeting with Egyptian President Abdel Fattah Al Sisi. Mr. Trump looked over a gathering of American and Egyptian officials and called out in ...
    2 days ago
  • Magdalen Burns, 1983-2019, fighter for women’s liberation
    by the Redline blog collective At Redline we are very saddened to hear of the death of Magdalen Burns who passed away on the morning of Friday, September 13 (British time). Magdalen was a great fighter for the rights of women in general and lesbian women in particular, a defender ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    3 days ago
  • Parliament and the Executive
    The Brexit issue has certainly brought with it a series of apparently difficult constitutional issues, many of them concerning the respective roles of the executive and parliament. Most of them arise because of the unwillingness of MPs, despite their professions to the contrary, to be bound by a constitutional rarity ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    3 days ago
  • The Abigail Article; Martyn Bradbury’s Article, and My Response
    . . This blogpost is different to my usual format of reporting on issues… Since July 1011, I have blogged on a variety of political issues; near always political and/or environmental; mostly highly critical of the previous National Government. Other issues included Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands and repression of ...
    Frankly SpeakingBy Frank Macskasy
    3 days ago
  • Police will have to wear silly Buckingham Palace hats from now on, says Police Minister
    Those close to the Police Minister believe the initiative may be the result of Nash “seeing a great deal” on AliExpress. In a move that comes seemingly out of nowhere, Police Minister Stuart Nash announced this afternoon that he expects all frontline staff to don bearskin hats, famously worn by ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    4 days ago
  • A sensible crackdown
    The government has released its Arms Legislation Bill, containing the second tranche of changes to gun laws following the March 15 massacre. And it all looks quite sensible: a national gun register, higher penalties for illegal possession and dealing, tighter restrictions on arms dealers and shooting clubs, and a shorter ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    4 days ago
  • California bans private prisons
    Private prisons are a stain on humanity. Prison operators explicitly profit from human misery, then lobby for longer prisons terms so they can keep on profiting. And in the US, prison companies run not only local and state prisons, but also Donald Trump's immigration concentration camps. Faced with this moral ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    4 days ago
  • Why PPPs are a bad idea
    When National was in power, they were very keen on Public-Private Partnerships (PPPs) - basicly, using private companies to finance public infrastructure as a way of hiding debt from the public. They were keen on using them for everything - roads, schools, hospitals. But as the UK shows, that "service" ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    4 days ago
  • A Movement That No Longer Moves.
    Moving And Shaking: There was a time when people spoke matter-of-factly about the “labour movement” – a political phenomenon understood to embrace much more than the Labour Party. Included within the term’s definition was the whole trade union movement – many of whose members looked upon the Labour Party as ...
    4 days ago
  • NZ ‘left’ politically embracing extreme postmodernism
    by Philip Ferguson Much of the left, even people who formally identify as marxists, have collapsed politically in the face of postmodern gender theory of the sort pioneered by American philosopher Judith Butler. For Butler even biological sex is socially constructed. “If the immutable character of sex is contested, perhaps ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    5 days ago
  • The obvious question
    The media is reporting that the (alleged) Labour party sexual assaulter has resigned from their job at Parliament, which means hopefully he won't be turning up there making people feel unsafe in future. Good. But as with everything about this scandal, it just raises other questions. Most significantly: why the ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • The moment I found out that you found out, I acted swiftly
    By Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern I am every bit as angry as you are. I am every bit as disappointed as you must be. The people with power, oversight and the ability to do something about these processes within the Labour Party should be ashamed. Whoever those people are, I ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    5 days ago
  • This is why people hate property developers
    Property developers think there is an "oversupply" of houses in Auckland:High turnover rates and falling prices may be a sign that there are too many new houses going in to some parts of Auckland, commentators say. [...] Property developer David Whitburn said there was a "bit of an oversupply" in ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • Australia to Pacific: “Fuck you, you can all drown”
    World leaders are meeting in New York in two weeks for the 2019 Climate Action Summit, where they are expected to announce new and more ambitious targets to stop the world from burning. But the Australian Prime Minister won't be there, despite being in the USA at the time:Scott Morrison ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • Implausible ignorance
    Labour Party president Nigel Haworth resigned yesterday over the party's sexual assault scandal. But while that's good news, its unlikely to take away the stench of a coverup. Because according to Paula Bennett in Parliament yesterday, pretty much everyone in the Prime Minister's office was involved as well:I have been ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    5 days ago
  • Labour’s Fatal Flaw.
     Two-Faced? Labour insiders' commitment to the neoliberal status quo puts them at odds with their party’s membership; its trade union affiliates; and a majority of Labour voters, but this only serves to strengthen the perception they have of themselves as a special elite. Among the lesser breeds, they’ll talk up a ...
    5 days ago
  • Ten reasons the Tories do NOT want an election
    There has been a lot of talk about Boris Johnson wanting an election, and he has blustered with great gusto about 'chicken' Jeremy Corbyn refusing one, but I think there are many reasons why he is secretly glad he has been refused the opportunity:The Tories are an utter rabble,tearing themselves ...
    6 days ago
  • Prorogation Illegal, rule Scottish judges
    Scottish appeal court judges have declared that Boris Johnson’s decision to suspend parliament in the run-up to the October Brexit deadline is unlawful. The three judges, chaired by Lord Carloway, Scotland’s most senior judge, overturned an earlier ruling that the courts did not have the powers to interfere in the prime ...
    6 days ago
  • Let me explain what I meant by Everyday New Zealanders
    By Simon Bridges. The following is a press release from the office of Simon Bridges, leader of The National Party. Key ora, New Zealand. Happy Maori Language Week. Look, I’m writing to you today because I want to clear something up. There’s been a lot of kerfuffle around some things ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    6 days ago
  • Yes, the SIS is subject to the Public Records Act
    I understand there's some stuff going round about how the SIS "was removed from the list of public offices covered by the Public Records Act in 2017". The context of course being their records derived from US torture, which will be disposed of or sealed. The good news is that ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    6 days ago
  • An evidence-based discussion of the Canadian fluoride/IQ study
    Dr. Christopher Labos and Jonathan Jarry discuss the recent Canadian fluoride/IQ research. They provide an expert analysis of the paper and its problems. Click on image to go to podcast. The critical debate about the recent ...
    6 days ago
  • Climate Change: Australia in denial
    Australia is burning down again, and meanwhile its natural disaster minister is denying climate change:Australia’s minister responsible for drought and natural disasters, David Littleproud, has said that he doesn’t “know if climate change is manmade”. Clarifying earlier comments that the question is “irrelevant” when considering the Coalition government’s response to ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    6 days ago
  • Philippines activist speaking on the Duterte tyranny
    Auckland Philippines Solidarity is excited to host Professor Judy Taguiwalo for a speaking tour of NZ in September. She is a well-known activist in the Philippines and was a political prisoner under the Marcos dictatorship. Professor Taguiwalo briefly served as a Cabinet member under President Duterte but was forced from ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    6 days ago
  • Disgust
    I have no special insights to offer on the Labour sexual assault coverup. All I have is disgust. Disgust that an organisation could fail its people so badly. Disgust that they punished the victims rather than the perpetrator. Disgust that its party hacks are apparently blaming the victims for demanding ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    6 days ago
  • Speak Up for Women calls out Greens’ censorship
    This open letter to the Green Party was penned after an opinion piece by Jill Abigail, a feminist and founding member of the party, was censored by the Greens’ leadership. (Redline has reprinted her article here).The intolerance of the Green Party leaders and their acceptance of the misogyny of gender ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    6 days ago
  • Member’s Day: End of Life Choice, part 3
    Today is a Member's day, and David Seymour's End of Life Choice Bill continues its slow crawl through its committee stage. They're spending the whole day on it today, though the first hour is likely to be spent on voting left over from last time. After that they'll move on ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    6 days ago
  • Flight to Los Angeles turned back after passengers decide they don’t want to go anymore
    An ambitious plan to fly to Los Angeles petered out into a brief sight-seeing trip and a desire to return home and get some sleep before work tomorrow. Air New Zealand has confirmed a flight to Los Angeles last night was turned back about a quarter of the way into ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    7 days ago
  • Indigenous Futures: defuturing and futuring – an analytical framework for policy development?
    There appears to be consensus – by omission – that the concept of indigenous futures should be accepted at face value. So I scavenged the internet to see if I could locate an academic descriptor or a framework around how we think about it as a concept, and whether it ...
    EllipsisterBy Ellipsister
    7 days ago
  • Cadbury rumoured to be releasing the Pineapple Trump
    Here’s another novelty chocolate to shove in your gob, New Zealand Cadbury could be seeking to make itself great again with a rumoured new release: Pineapple Trumps, a spin on its classic chocolate-encased pineapple treat and do-it-yourself tooth remover. The global confectionery manufacturer and bumbling “before” character in an infomercial, ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • The coming resource war.
    During my time in the Pentagon I had the privilege of sitting down with military leaders and defence and security officials from a variety of Latin American nations. Sometimes I was present as a subordinate assistant to a senior US defence department official, sometimes as part of a delegation that ...
    KiwipoliticoBy Pablo
    1 week ago
  • Māori Language Week with The Civilian
    Kia ora, Aotearoa. It’s that magical time of year. Te Wiki o te Reo Māori. In English, the week that frightens talk radio. As you probably know by now, all your favourite media outlets are participating, some more successfully than others. Stuff has changed its name to Puna for the ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • Will Horizons act on climate change?
    Local body elections are coming up next month. And it looks like all Palmerston North candidates for Horizons (the Manawatu-Whanganui Regional Council) want to take action on climate change:Climate change is set to be a key issue in Palmerston North for the next three years if those wanting to get ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • BORA reform is stalled
    Eighteen months ago, the government promised to strengthen the Bill of Rights Act, by explicitly affirming the power of the courts to issue declarations of inconsistency and requiring Parliament to formally respond to them. So how's that going? I was curious, so I asked for all advice about the proposal. ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Corbyn and Brexit
    As the Brexit saga staggers on, the focus is naturally enough on the Prime Minister and his attempts to achieve Brexit “do or die”. But the role played by the Leader of the Opposition is of almost equal interest and complexity. The first problem for Jeremy Corbyn is that he ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    1 week ago
  • A ditch for him to die in
    Last week, English Prime Minister Boris Johnson boldly declared that he would rather die be dead in a ditch than delay Brexit. Unfortunately for him, the UK parliament accepted the challenge, and promptly dug one for him. The "rebellion bill" requires him to ask for and secure yet another temporary ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Warning! Warning! Danger Jacinda Ardern! Danger Marama Davidson! Warning!
    Lost In Political Space: The most important takeaway from this latest Labour sexual assault scandal, which (if I may paraphrase Nixon’s White House counsel’s, John Dean’s, infamous description of Watergate) is “growing like a cancer” on the premiership, is the Labour Party organisation’s extraordinary professional paralysis in the face of ...
    1 week ago
  • Union solidarity with Ihumatao land occupation
    by Daphna Whitmore Every Sunday for the past two months unionists from First Union, with supporters from other unions, have set out to the Ihumatao land protest, put up gazebos and gas barbeques, and cooked food for a few hundred locals and supporters who have come from across the country. ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • Climate Change: The wrong kind of trees?
    Newsroom today has an excellent, in-depth article on pine trees as carbon sinks. The TL;DR is that pine is really good at soaking up carbon, but people prefer far-less efficient native forests instead. Which is understandable, but there's two problems: firstly, we've pissed about so long on this problem that ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • No freedom of speech in Turkey
    Canan Kaftancioglu is a Turkish politician and member of the opposition Republican People's Party (CHP). Like most modern politicians, she tweets, and uses the platform to criticise the Turkish government. She has criticised them over the death of a 14-year-old boy who was hit by a tear gas grenade during ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Speaker: Tadhg Stopford: Why I’m standing for the ADHB
    Hi there, just call me Tim.We face tough problems, and I’d like to help, because there are solutions.An Auckand District Health Board member has nominated me for as a candidate for the ADHB, because her MS-related pain and fatigue is reduced with hemp products from Rotorua.  Nothing else helped her. If I ...
    1 week ago
  • Good little vassals
    The Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security has published their report on whether the SIS and GCSB had any complicity in American torture. And its damning. The pull quote is this:The Inquiry found both agencies, but to a much greater degree, the NZSIS, received many intelligence reports obtained from detainees who, ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Who Shall We Turn To When God, And Uncle Sam, Cease To Defend New Zealand?
    Bewhiskered Cassandra? Professor Hugh White’s chilling suggestion, advanced to select collections of academic, military and diplomatic Kiwi experts over the course of the past week, is that the assumptions upon which Australia and New Zealand have built their foreign affairs and defence policies for practically their entire histories – are ...
    1 week ago
  • The Politics of Opposition
    For most of the time I was a British MP, my party was out of government – these were the Thatcher years, when it was hard for anyone else to get a look-in. As a front-bencher and shadow minister, I became familiar with the strategies required in a parliamentary democracy ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    1 week ago
  • More expert comments on the Canadian fluoride-IQ paper
    The Green et al (2019) fluoride/IQ is certainly controversial – as would be expected from its subject (see If at first you don’t succeed . . . statistical manipulation might help and Politics of science – making a silk purse out of a sow’s ear). Anti-fluoride campaigners have been actively promoting it ...
    1 week ago
  • The return to guerrilla war in Colombia
    by Gearóid Ó Loingsigh On August 29th a video in which veteran FARC (Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia) commander Iván Márquez announced that they had taken up arms again was released. There was no delay in the reaction to it, from longtime Liberal Party figure and former president Uribe, for ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    1 week ago
  • Air New Zealand identifies this enormous plot of unused land as possible second airport site
    Air New Zealand couldn’t believe its luck that this seemingly ideal piece of real estate had so far gone entirely unnoticed. Air New Zealand’s search for a site to build a second Auckland Airport may have made a breakthrough this afternoon, after employees scanning Google satellite imagery spotted a huge, ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Redline on the Labour Party
    No-one on the anti-capitalist left in this country today puts forward a case that Labour is on the side of the working class.  There are certainly people who call themselves ‘socialist’ who do, but they are essentially liberals with vested interests in Labourism – often for career reasons. Nevertheless, there ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    2 weeks ago
  • New Fisk
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Labour’s failure
    When National was in government and fucking over the poor for the benefit of the rich, foodbanks were a growth industry. And now Labour is in charge, nothing has changed: A huge demand for emergency food parcels means the Auckland City Mission is struggling to prepare for the impending arrival ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Ardern attempts to vaccinate Clarke Gayford live on television to prove that it’s safe
    Gayford, pictured here on The Project, before things got wildly out of control. A bold public relations move by the Government to encourage parents to vaccinate their children has gone horribly wrong. Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern appeared on tonight’s episode of Three’s The Project, where the plan was for her ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Has Mr. Whippy gone too far by parking on our front lawns?
    Mr. Whippy’s business model has driven it down a dark road of intimidation. Residents in major centres around the country are becoming disgruntled by the increasingly aggressive actions of purported ice cream company Mr. Whippy, who have taken to parking on people’s front lawns and doorsteps in a desperate attempt ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Cleaning up the water
    Today the government released its Action Plan for Healthy Waterways, aimed at cleaning up our lakes and rivers. Its actually quite good. There will be protection for wetlands, better standards for swimming spots, a requirement for continuous improvement, and better standards for wastewater and stormwater. But most importantly, there's a ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Fronting up
    Today I appeared before the Environment Committee to give an oral submission on the Zero Carbon Bill. Over 1,500 people have asked to appear in person, so they've divided into subcommittees and are off touring the country, giving people a five minute slot each. The other submitters were a mixed ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Politics of science – making a silk purse out of a sow’s ear
    Anti-fluoride activists have some wealthy backers – they are erecting billboards misrepresenting the Canadian study on many New Zealand cities – and local authorities are ordering their removal because of their scaremongering. Many New Zealanders ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Democracy – I Don’t Think So
    So, those who “know best” have again done their worst. While constantly claiming to be the guardians of democracy and the constitution, and respecters of the 2016 referendum result, diehard Remainers (who have never brought themselves to believe that their advice could have been rejected) have striven might and main ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    2 weeks ago
  • Government says it will now build just one really nice home
    Following publication of this article, the Ministry has requested it to be noted that this supplied image is not necessarily representative of what the final house will look like, and it “probably won’t be that nice.” As part of today’s long-anticipated reset of the Government’s flagship KiwiBuild policy, Housing Minister ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Imperialism and your cup of coffee
    Over the next week or two we will be running three synopses of parts of the opening chapter of John Smith’s Imperialism in the 21st Century (New York, Monthly Review Press, 2016).  The synopsis and commentary below is written by Phil Duncan. Marx began Capital not with a sweeping historical ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Still juking the stats
    The State Services Commission and Ombudsman have released another batch of OIA statistics, covering the last six months. Request volumes are up, and the core public service is generally handling them within the legal timeframe, though this may be because they've learned to extend rather than just ignore things. And ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Hard News: Time for a New Deal: 25 years on
    In 1994, I was editing an ambitious street mag called Planet, from a fabled office at at 309 Karangahape Road. The thirteenth issue of the magazine was published in the winter of that year and its cover embodied a particularly ambitious goal: the end of cannabis prohibition.I wanted to do ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Not impressed
    KiwiBuild was one of the Ardern government's core policies. The government would end the housing crisis and make housing affordable again by building 100,000 new homes. Of course, it didn't work out like that: targets weren't met, the houses they did build were in the wrong place, and the whole ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Solar beats coal
    As the climate crisis escalates, it is now obvious that we need to radically decarbonise our economy. The good news is that its looking easy and profitable for the energy sector. Wind is already cheaper than fossil fuels, and now solar is too:The levellised cost of solar PV has fallen ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago

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