TPP – dooming our grandchildren to poverty

31 comments on “TPP – dooming our grandchildren to poverty ”

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1. AmaKiwi 1

   25 August 2015 at 10:32 am

   Next comes a sovereign debt crisis.

   For more than half a century debt has been increasing. A pause to check out reality would have shown we (individuals, companies, countries) were deceiving ourselves. We have no way to repay all the debts we have taken on.

   Now the piper wants to be paid. Or, more correctly, no one with money is going to lend.

   This is going to get ugly.
   • Draco T Bastard 1.1

     25 August 2015 at 12:24 pm

     Or, more correctly, no one with money is going to lend.

     I’m not sure if there’s actually anybody out there with any money. There are, though, a couple of thousand people who own most of the world and they will be dictating what the rest of us can do – just and the aristocrats when we had an openly feudal society did.

     This means one thing – we now have a feudal society hidden behind shareholding and privacy laws.
2. Sabine 2

   25 August 2015 at 10:33 am

   we have doomed our children to a job less future a long time ago. Starting with the refusal by businesses to train future worker and outsourcing the apprenticeships to universities for anything from cookery to hairdressing, dress making, tool building etc etc etc.
   We forced (yes forced) our children to forgo trades (due to lack of apprenticeships) into office jobs that are now being done on the cheap in India and other places.

   We …..yes, US, we need to start training our young ones to make stuff again, instead of just hoping for them to ever have enough money to buy cheap shit made by slaves in ‘producer’ countries like chine, india, bangladesh, pakistan etc etc etc. And yes, the guys making I phone in the FoxConn Factories are nothing more then slaves.

   Heck, anyone who did not see this coming in the 80’s when our markets were open to cheap imports from wage slaves overseas must have been truly and utterly willfully blind.
   • Draco T Bastard 2.1

     25 August 2015 at 12:29 pm

     +1
3. weka 3

   25 August 2015 at 10:40 am

   what’s the connection between the tech revolution stealing jobs and the TPPA?
   • tracey 3.1

     25 August 2015 at 10:45 am

     it’s in the article and relates, I think, to the new software copyright laws/rules that the TPP brings with it which will restrict how our descendants can move into and within new technology development
4. AmaKiwi 4

   25 August 2015 at 11:05 am

   TPPA is dead.

   When we are frightened, we withdraw to protect ourselves.

   Even if Key signs TPPA, the US Congress won’t pass it. The Americans are as frightened as everyone else. Isolationism, not cooperation, is the new social mood.

   Economic disaster is fertile ground for starting wars. It is death for cooperative alliances. The EU will continue to unravel.
   • McFlock 4.1

     25 August 2015 at 2:28 pm

     I hope you’re right about the tpp, but there’s a saying about counting chickens before they hatch…
5. Robert Atack 5

   25 August 2015 at 2:21 pm

   TPP is a joke going Nowhere, it really is the least of our worries.
   I am reasonably confident that most of you will be wishing for martial law inside of 2 years …. just saying )
   • McFlock 5.1

     25 August 2015 at 2:24 pm

     and how long have you been reasonably confident of that – the last ten years or so?
     • Robert Atack 5.1.1

       25 August 2015 at 2:50 pm

       Given the choice I bet there are millions (refugees) who would ‘vote’ for martial law now. Unlike the cloud cuckoo land people we have in NZ
       • McFlock 5.1.1.1

         25 August 2015 at 3:02 pm

         Didn’t really answer the question though did it.

         Here’s you in 2010 talking supply shortages of oil in 2012, for example. I’m not saying everything’s fine, nothing to worry about… but then I also find predictions of imminent anarchy to be a bit too far the other way, personally.
         • Draco T Bastard 5.1.1.1.1

           25 August 2015 at 3:16 pm

           but then I also find predictions of imminent anarchy to be a bit too far the other way, personally.

           He’s not predicting anarchy but chaos. There’s a difference in meaning in the words and you really should know that difference.
           • McFlock 5.1.1.1.1.1

             25 August 2015 at 4:02 pm

             Words can have multiple meanings within the common parlance as well as having specific denotations in more specialist vocabularies (such as political philosophy).

             You really should be aware of that characteristic of the English Language.
6. Charles 6

   25 August 2015 at 3:01 pm

   In a roundabout way, he’s actually constructed an argument for the TPPA, but not for people like him, not just yet, if you don’t mind. By the time anything like the TPPA is signed, he’ll be fine. So will his grandchildren. Any further comment on the article would turn me into more of a passive agressive than I’m comfortable being.
   • tracey 6.1

     25 August 2015 at 4:55 pm

     It’s kind of interesting to consider that a US President from 1960 to 1963 is more progressive and open than most world leaders in 2015, including ours.
   • Coffee Connoisseur 6.2

     25 August 2015 at 5:08 pm

     No he’s constructed an argument for making a choice.
     To sign or not to sign – choice one.

     To return essential services to the public sector and highly automate them so that those services can be delivered at a lower cost than privatisation. – choice 2

     How we deal with the lack of remaining jobs in society after another 45% have been automated comes down to choice 3.
     That is do you want your automation delivered and controlled by corporates for the benefit of their bottom line? Or do you want it delivered by other means for the benefit of each and every individual in society.
     This is the two paths he is referring to, one of true prosperity (not monetarily) and freedom or one of low wages, job scarcity and economic slavery.

     The choice is yours to make. If you want prosperity and more freedom then start thinking about how to implement a UBI for a start closely followed by decoupling jobs from wages.
     Who controls those 3 main technologies will play a massive part.
     The internet – predominently free.
     The product hub – Ours is owned by fairfax (not ideal moving forward)
     The service hub – too soon to tell. But if this is something like Uber then we have a problem. Those roles that are automated or more importantly the revenue that replaces them, heads straight overseas, do not pass go do not collect $200.00. It is lost to our economy altogether. Thats a big problem.
     But development of alternatives for the last two would be less than 10 mil (a lot less)
     It is only an argument for TPP if you don’t factor in how broken the current system is. I think the author gets that. Here’s an earlier article he wrote. Worth a read too.

     http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL1507/S00153/post-capitalism-why-its-time-to-think-utopian.htm
     • Tracey 6.2.1

       25 August 2015 at 5:41 pm

       guy on radio yesterday spoke of automated taxis. no driver no need to park just whizz round and round. death of taxis..
       • Coffee Connoisseur 6.2.1.1

         25 August 2015 at 7:07 pm

         Well thats an interesting one and it doesn’t only apply to taxis but to all driving roles potentially. The key will be who owns the technology as this is exactly what will be connected to a service hub. If the Hub is the likes of Uber and they own the self drive cars and that is what people choose to use then yep expect our economy to be in serious trouble at some point.
         If on the other hand it is the Taxi drivers themselves owning the vehicles and this is what the travelling public use, then you have an example where technology and automation is used in a way that benefits the individual and frees him from having to work. We would then conceivably do this for other roles in society also.
         The choice comes down to:
         Do we want automation delivered by corporates where the benefits are realised on the corporate bottom line.
         Or do we do it for the benefit of the individual most likely through public services.
         We do have a choice in this.
         People once they wake up to this can always boycott the Ubers of this world.
         It is about do we want to continue with a model where we work for the system and things risk getting worse over time or
         Do we change it so that the system works for us.
7. upnorth 7

   25 August 2015 at 4:59 pm

   I really enjoy and embrace innovation and technology – I mean Nasa invented teflon and I have to say we all love teflon.

   I enjoy looking at pictures from the hubble telescope

   I am amazed at what humans can do – if phones can be answer in cyber space fantastic – I know many call centre people who just hate their jobs – lets invest in new technologies so the call centre people can be inspired into new careers
   • Coffee Connoisseur 7.1

     25 August 2015 at 5:15 pm

     Same
     We can do extraordinary things in the right environment with the right resources and the right conditions. Unfortunately we have the wrong environment. We have one where money has become a barrier that is detrimental to people being able to obtain basic needs. It is detrimental to solving the problems we do face in society under the current structures. It is therefore detrimental to real progress at a societal level for everyone.
   • McFlock 7.2

     25 August 2015 at 5:16 pm

     Teflon was invented before NASA existed.

     But NASA spin-off technologies have their own wikipedia page 🙂
   • Tracey 7.3

     25 August 2015 at 6:12 pm

     a trillion dollar star gazing.
   • weka 7.4

     25 August 2015 at 6:18 pm

     “and I have to say we all love teflon.”

     Like fuck we do (although I can’t tell if your comment was satirical, so just in case…). Teflon is a highly concerning environmental and health toxin, and the companies that make it are evil. Dupont should be regarded in the same category as tobacco companies.

     PFOA persists indefinitely in the environment. It is a toxicant and carcinogen in animals. PFOA has been detected in the blood of more than 98% of the general US population in the low and sub-parts per billion range, and levels are higher in chemical plant employees and surrounding subpopulations. How general populations are exposed to PFOA is not completely understood. PFOA has been detected in industrial waste, stain resistant carpets, carpet cleaning liquids, house dust, microwave popcorn bags, water, food, some cookware and PTFE such as Teflon.

     As a result of a class-action lawsuit and community settlement with DuPont, three epidemiologists conducted studies on the population surrounding a chemical plant that was exposed to PFOA at levels greater than in the general population. The studies concluded that there was probably an association between PFOA exposure and six health outcomes: kidney cancer, testicular cancer, ulcerative colitis, thyroid disease, hypercholesterolemia (high cholesterol), and pregnancy-induced hypertension.

     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfluorooctanoic_acid

     http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/25/AR2006012502041.html

     https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/08/11/dupont-chemistry-deception/
     • Rosemary McDonald 7.4.1

       25 August 2015 at 6:46 pm

       ““and I have to say we all love teflon.”

       Like fuck we do …”

       Thanks weka, you took the words right out of my mouth.

       now…let’s get behind the glysophate ban….
       • maui 7.4.1.1

         25 August 2015 at 7:06 pm

         now…let’s get behind the glysophate ban….

         Fully agree. It’s been banned from being sold in european countries, when are we going to wake up? Horror stories keep coming out about the nasty health problems it’s caused around the world from places like Argentina and Sri Lanka. I see it sprayed liberally around the edges of parks and reserves, roadways all the time. When are Councils and the NZTA going to realise they’re putting their own workers and the public at risk.
         • weka 7.4.1.1.1

           26 August 2015 at 12:51 am

           there’s been some research published recently making a connection between glyphosate and antibiotic resistance.
8. Tracey 8

   25 August 2015 at 5:37 pm

   Finlayson adds secret courts to health and safety legislation at last minute.

   http://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/71447449/New-health-and-safety-laws-contain-secret-courts-provision
9. The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 9

   25 August 2015 at 7:13 pm

   Chris Trotter finally wrote something I have NO disagreement with

   No doubt, his proudest day.
10. ropata 10

    25 August 2015 at 7:24 pm

    This shortage of “jobs” is completely artificial. There is a hell of a lot of real WORK to be done, for example home help currently being done unpaid by family members. We need tons more police teachers social workers builders and advocates like Sue Bradford. These are not profitable corporate jobs that can be skimmed for overseas profit vampires, they are jobs of real worth, investing in families and the future of NZ
    • Coffee Connoisseur 10.1

      25 August 2015 at 8:28 pm

      decouple work from wages and you might just solve that problem.

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