Transmission Gully to cost $15 per trip

Written By: - Date published: 9:52 am, August 30th, 2013 - 188 comments
Categories: transport - Tags:

If you had $3 billion to spend on transport over 25 years, what would you do with it? Increase spending on cycling facilities six-fold and give all our cities Amsterdam-like sustainable transport? Increase the amount spent on public transport by over a third? Or, build a duplicate motorway for 3% that Wellington’s population will use, at a cost to the taxpayer of $30 per commuter per day?

If you chose the third option, congratulations, you could work in Gerry Brownlee’s option. That’s right – the $3 billion Transmission Gully project, which will carry only 20,000 vehicles a day (basically, 10,000 commuters), will cost the taxpayer $15 for each trip driven on it for 25 years.

If you know why we need a duplicate motorway for a rout where traffic volumes are declining, and why it’s the best use of $3 billion for the country, well, could you tell me? Because I just can’t work it out.

tg cost per trip

188 comments on “Transmission Gully to cost $15 per trip ”

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  1. Stever 1
    30 August 2013 at 10:07 am

    I guess if you’re massively lobbied by the roading companies (how would we know?) and/or hoped for a good directorship with them once you’re out of government, you might make these sorts of plans.

    • Tom Gould 1.1
      30 August 2013 at 12:49 pm

      Or, you have enough sense to realise that the current route out of Wellington is stuffed and after 25 years of procrastination it’s time to get on an build Transmission Gully? It recently took me two hours to drive the 60km from the airport as far as Waikanae early afternoon on a week day. I guess I could have rode a bike, in the wind and rain, and taken all day? Maybe we should bring back the horse and carriage?

      • ghostwhowalksnz 1.1.1
        30 August 2013 at 2:17 pm

        Heard of the train ?

        Its the same anywhere Friday afternoon, bad weather , gridlock early on.

        Wont change with a new motorway. Just check out Aucklands motorway to Puhoi, the queues stretch back along the motorway .

        Capacity of motorway 2500 cars per lane, capacity of road at end of motorway 1200 cars per lane.

        Its simple maths

        • srylands 1.1.1.1
          30 August 2013 at 2:54 pm

          “Heard of the train ?”

          The train is grubby, with school kids and viruses. It is also (mostly) slower than the car. I used it for 20 yearsm so I have a sound point of comparison.

          • Daveosaurus 1.1.1.1.1
            30 August 2013 at 6:42 pm

            In other words: “oooh, icky young people”.

            Sounds like a great advertisement for congestion charging. A 100% avoidable stupidity tax, paid only by the sort of people who regard their fellow citizens as “oooh, icky young people:”.

          • QoT 1.1.1.1.2
            31 August 2013 at 12:17 pm

            Sorry, srylands, I don’t see why someone living in Australia is qualified to comment on the current state of Wellington public transport.

        • Tim 1.1.1.2
          31 August 2013 at 2:25 am

          Speaking of the train, if this route is to be pursued, 3 metres to the side of the Gully road could provide an alternate train route (with tunnels where necessary), and pick up Pauatahanui, Whitby, all those Porirua East Suburbs and newer ones to the south before relinking with the Main Trunk Line.
          No so expensive if its done in conjunction with TG, and a better option for the future.

      • Conor 1.1.2
        30 August 2013 at 6:02 pm

        Well, you lobby for electrification to Waikanae and more train services, as well as the Bus Rapid Transit to the airport. Far cheaper. Even with Transmission Gully you’ll still get bottlenecks.

  2. TheContrarian 2
    30 August 2013 at 10:09 am

    Whether Transmission Gully or not something still needs to be done. The Centennial Highway is not only inadequate, it is also dangerous.

    And cycle ways are all well and good but I don’t fancy anyone cycling to the Kapiti Coast for a weekend away with the family.

    • bad12 2.1
      30 August 2013 at 10:14 am

      Dangerous, get with the play, since the wire barrier was installed along the ‘dangerous’ part of the Centennial Highway there have been how many deaths on that stretch of road…

      • TheContrarian 2.1.1
        30 August 2013 at 10:20 am

        Motorcyclists certainly aren’t a fan. And yes the wire barriers save lifes but doens’t stop the accidents themselves.
        Nonetheless it is in dire need of an upgrade or something because as it stands it is extremely congested and inadequate for a growing capital city.
        I know, I know “more public transport” but even with more public transport you still have families, trucks and holiday makers using the road which is in a terrible state. Having to sit on it for three or more hours after a holiday weekend isn’t any fun.

        I’m not stumping for transmission gully itself, more that I recognise the current road is inadequate

        • Lightly 2.1.1.1
          30 August 2013 at 10:27 am

          $3 billion seems like a hell of a lot of money to spend on a duplicate motorway if the problem is improving a few stretches on the existing road…. and how does TG fix that anyway?

          • TheContrarian 2.1.1.1.1
            30 August 2013 at 10:39 am

            It needs another lane in each direction – particularly that stretch that goes around the sea with the cliffs on the other side. Also coming up into Raumati there are stretches of dual lanes but they bottle neck into a single lane a bit further down the road. Very frustrating on long weekends.

            • Lightly 2.1.1.1.1.1
              30 August 2013 at 10:51 am

              So, because there’s a few hours of congestion on public holidays for a few thousand people, we should build a $3 billion road?

              This is why we have benefit/cost ratios and assess them for the country as a whole, not just for the people who sue the road. The few who use the route get a great benefit, but everyone else shoulders a huge cost. There are other things we could do with that money that would create more good for more people.

              • TheContrarian …
                30 August 2013 at 11:03 am

                “So, because there’s a few hours of congestion on public holidays for a few thousand people, we should build a $3 billion road?”

                I think you missed the bit where I said ‘I’m not stumping for transmission gully itself, more that I recognise the current road is inadequate”

                • weka …
                  30 August 2013 at 12:56 pm

                  “I know, I know “more public transport” but even with more public transport you still have families, trucks and holiday makers using the road which is in a terrible state. Having to sit on it for three or more hours after a holiday weekend isn’t any fun.”

                  I gather that the Dutch stagger their holidays in order to avoid road congestion. I’m sure there are many varied and complementary solutions to Wellington road congestion, that would be solved with intelligent and creative/lateral thinking* and planning. Unfortunately we have a govt with an agenda that has little to do with the wellbeing of NZ.

                  *lateral for NACT. But if you listen to people thinking outside the neoliberal box, it’s just normal thinking.

        • bad12 2.1.1.2
          30 August 2013 at 10:36 am

          i am not about to provide the likes of you with research, BUT, i suggest that what you have just posted as a comment is Bulls**t,

          If you are going to post comments on fact where’s the links to the accident rate befor the wire barrier was installed and the accident rate after the wire barrier was installed???

          As far as what i have commented about Transmission Gully there has been NO call for further upgrading of public transport from Kapiti to Wellington, there is a perfectly adequate and underused double track railway connecting the two,

          What i believe needs building is a number of car park buildings at all of the high use rail stations including Paraparaumu, Pukerua Bay, Plimmerton,Mana/Paremata,Porirua, Linden, Tawa/ Redwood, thus allowing a greatly expanded use of park and ride for commuting,

          To make such parking buildings both more affordable and more effective they could be built in conjunction with apartments above the car park levels and shopping complexes on one floor or another…

          • TheContrarian 2.1.1.2.1
            30 August 2013 at 10:52 am

            Are you really suggesting using a wire barrier over a concrete one actually prevents accidents from happening in the first place? Magic Wire!

            Fact remains that stretch of the highway is notoriously narrow and unforgiving – no matter what barrier one uses.It needs to be widened at least and build out over the sea to add a passing lane, do that same on the other side too. You could have, as you suggested carparks at either end say so there is the option to take rail if ones choses

            • bad12 2.1.1.2.1.1
              30 August 2013 at 11:22 am

              TC, what i am suggesting is that the wire barrier has dramatically reduced ALL accidents along that stretch of the Highway, and, i cannot remember a fatal accident having occurred along the ‘wired’ stretch of Centennial since that barrier was installed,

              i still await your posting of the Proof of the first assertion you made at 10.20,

              The rest of my post does not suggest that we simply stick a carpark at each end of the Centennial Highway, please god send us some wing-nuts with a higher intellect than the current crop…

              • TheContrarian …
                30 August 2013 at 11:31 am

                Proof that the road is dangerous? Or proof that a wire barrier doesn’t stop people still having accidents?

                I’m not a wing-nut by any stretch of the imagination. Sorry pal.

                • bad12 …
                  30 August 2013 at 11:56 am

                  All roads are inherently dangerous especially those that have traffic hurtling toward each other at 100K an hour with a painted line separating them from each other,

                  Even those that have concrete barriers are dangerous, less so than those which rely on a simple painted line as the means of separation admittedly, but as all modes of transport are controlled at the whim of Humans they are simply as fallible as the average Human is,

                  Your claim is that accidents still happen on the stretch of Centennial Highway that has had the ‘wire barrier’ installed,

                  Such a claim is bullshit, such a claim insinuates that the wire barrier achieved nothing, when the facts are that the installation of the wire barrier has been the catalyst for there to be a dramatic fall in the amount of accidents on that stretch of Highway, and what accidents do occur are far less severe than those that previously occurred resulting in far less severe injury than befor…

                  Provide us the proof, accidents befor the barrier was installed versus accidents after the barrier was installed…

                  • TheContrarian …
                    30 August 2013 at 12:29 pm

                    No, no, no. Fuck man, pay attention
                    The wire barrier has dramatically reduced the risk of death and serious injury. Yes, we know that and I never ‘insinuated’ the wire barrier achieved nothing.

                    People are still crashing because it is a narrow, twisting road with little room for error. The wire barrier can’t change the shape of the road, the width of the road etc. It just stops people from careening into oncoming traffic or smashing into a heavy concrete median.

                    Here, page 23. It conclusively shows the wire barrier saves life’s and serious injury and the road is safer. But 81 people still crashed on that stretch of road – as it is a fast piece if highway then such crashes are more than a mere ding, carry on your way. The road is too narrow so when a crash occurs there is no way to get around it so traffic backs up. This road needs upgrading because it is a high accident area and once a crash has happened traffic backs up because there is no where else to go.

                    “Your claim is that accidents still happen on the stretch of Centennial Highway that has had the ‘wire barrier’ installed,”
                    Because they do

                    accidents befor the barrier was installed versus accidents after the barrier was installed…
                    Done.
                    Page 23
                    http://www.kiwirap.org.nz/pdf/KiwiRAP%20FINAL%20Intro%20and%20Performance%20Tracking%20for%20website.pdf

                    • srylands …
                      30 August 2013 at 12:44 pm

                      Yes well said. I have had vistors from Australia laugh (literally) when I tell them this is the main road to Wellington. My sister asked me why we put up with it.

                      The fact that there is any debate about this speaks volumes about the mindset of too many New Zealanders. I am lost about how this happened – maybe we need to look at the school curriculum? I also think that many of this mindset just don’t get out and about enough around the world and look at the roads OECD nations employ – even countries with comparble GDP per capita (Slovenia for example) have much better roads.

                      It comes back to the big problem of productivity and supporting an underclass on welfare at $25 billion plus PER YEAR to do nothing (or have more kids – rinse and repeat).

                      So a couple of billion for TG over 25 years is nothing. How about $250 billion over 25 years for welfare checks that just take the country backwards.

                      I have answered my own question – Slovenia doesn’t spend $25 billion annually on welfare checks.

                    • McFlock …
                      30 August 2013 at 1:05 pm

                      Slovenia vs NZ:
                      half the population,
                      half the GDP,
                      4 times the population density

                      Oh, and much lower GINI than NZ. Might have an effect on welfare cheques, you cherry-pickin’ liar.

                      And you’ll probably find that Slovenia pisses less money away on holiday highways, too

                    • srylands …
                      30 August 2013 at 1:11 pm

                      “you cherry-pickin’ liar. ”

                      Another example of bad manners.

                    • McFlock …
                      30 August 2013 at 1:16 pm

                      the first example being your cherry pickin’ lyin’.

                • McFlock …
                  30 August 2013 at 12:57 pm

                  Actually, a physical barrier prevents dangerous passing manoeuvers as well as providing a stronger perception that the margin for safety ends in the driver’s own lane (much stronger than a thin white line with all this apparently empty space to the right).

                  So yes, physical barriers do prevent accidents, as well as minimising their effect.

                  • TheContrarian …
                    30 August 2013 at 1:01 pm

                    Indeed, but nonetheless it is an infamous accident area, wire barrier not with standing. It is narrow, congested, and there are frequent accidents. If not Transmission Gully then the current road should be upgraded in some fashion.

                    • McFlock …
                      30 August 2013 at 1:10 pm

                      The barriers were part of that ongoing upgrade.

                      Still no actual accident rate data, then?

                  • Greywarbler …
                    30 August 2013 at 6:29 pm

                    srylands @ 1.11 pm
                    How can saying cherry pickin’ lying be bad manners? If it is true –
                    1 That you’re cherry picking.
                    2 That you’re deliberately putting false figures into the argument.

                    Don’t try to throw a cloak of affronted prissyness over the thread when people address your comments directly and find them wanting.

        • fender 2.1.1.3
          30 August 2013 at 10:50 am

          ” …..inadequate for a growing capital city.”

          Key told us Wellington was a dying city.

        • Lightly 2.1.1.4
          30 August 2013 at 11:01 am

          traffic volumes are falling between wellington and the kapiti coast – all TG would do is subsidise more sprawl – we all get to pay so a handful of commuters get a faster drive

          • TheContrarian 2.1.1.4.1
            30 August 2013 at 11:07 am

            The current road has been inadequate for quite some time. It’s not a new problem. The volume would have to fall pretty low for it to be as viable as when it was built. But yeah – forget TG, just widen the road and add a few more passing lanes/dual carriage ways and it should suffice for the time being

            • alwyn 2.1.1.4.1.1
              30 August 2013 at 11:20 am

              There used to be passing lanes in parts of the road. They were removed because the tend to cause both more accidents and greater hold-ups when the road is heavily used.
              Cars, attempting to pass, tend to speed up at the end of the passing lane and then, trying to merge, hit vehicles in the other lane. The merging of two lanes also slows down the traffic to below the peak flow speed and creates a disturbance in the traffic flow that propogates backwards up the highway.
              That they don’t work in heavy traffic volume situations is why they are generally closed off during holiday weekends.

    • Jack 2.2
      30 August 2013 at 10:27 pm

      More cycle lanes are NOT a serious solution to transport issues in Wellington. Investment in improved public transport along with promoting car pooling (eg faster lanes for cars with 2 or more people in them) may help. But frankly the Centennial Highway problems won’t be solved by cycle lanes (my grandmother won’t be using them). And frankly Wellington Streets are dangerous for cyclists and the council should be actively encouraging cyclists to stay at home.

      Transmission Gully doesn’t have to be a bad thing – it may make bus services to Kapiti more efficient. Not investing in core infrastructure isn’t environmentally sustainable.

  3. framu 3
    30 August 2013 at 10:18 am

    youve got this all wrong – srylands has told us that he drives this route everyday from australia. So he should know right?

    🙂

    • srylands 3.1
      30 August 2013 at 10:47 am

      “youve got this all wrong – srylands has told us that he drives this route everyday from australia. So he should know right.”

      No I fly from Australia. I drive from the Kapiti Coast.

      Last night was typical. Road works on the wire barrier section. One lane closed. Wire barrier down with traffic directed across it one direction at a time. 10 minute delay getting home.

      We need better transport infrastructure all round. Hopefully TG is the first installment in a motorway standard road from Wellington to Auckland.

      Note that in 1975 Australia had our standard of SH1 between Syd and Mlb. It is now a motorway standard all the way, with no traffic lights between Syd and Mlb.

      TG is a 100 year asset. And traffic volumes will increase over the next 100 years.

      • Lightly 3.1.1
        30 August 2013 at 11:05 am

        I’m happy to pay my share of $3 billion so you don’t occasionally have a 10 minute delay. Where do I sign up?

        The comparison with Australia and Melbourne is stupid. each of them have the same population as the whole of New Zealand and several million more live in close proximity to that route. Kapiti has a population of 50,000, only 10,000 of whom commute to Wellington

        • framu 3.1.1.1
          30 August 2013 at 11:13 am

          oddly enough – thats the exact claimed time saving for the orewa tunnel north of auckland

          but the ticketing/payment system is such ill thought out bollocks, and because everyone uses the tunnel, its actually comparable time wise and just plain easier to just go through orewa like we always did.

      • framu 3.1.2
        30 August 2013 at 11:09 am

        yeah whatever mate – its a joke, get over it.

        “No I fly from Australia. I drive from the Kapiti Coast.” – yeah i make up stories too, fun isnt it? Face it, you got caught out in a massive lie the other day (or you let the appearance of the lie persist)

        “Road works” – yeah road works happen all over the place all the time, its hardly unique to that bit of road in australia, i mean kapiti, whoops – i meant 15% gst

        “in 1975 Australia had our standard of SH1 between Syd and Mlb” – so in 100 years will the population travelling whatever routes out of wellington, be the same as the amount travelling the syd > melb route today?. Without any data its kinda pointless. One could equally point to all sorts of roads all over the place. Without comparable data its pointless

        :”And traffic volumes will increase over the next 100 years.” – evidence please (real evidence , not some dross from rodger kerr)

        • srylands 3.1.2.1
          30 August 2013 at 11:52 am

          ” yeah road works happen all over the place all the time, its hardly unique to that bit of road in australia,”

          No I was referring to SH1.

          • framu 3.1.2.1.1
            30 August 2013 at 11:58 am

            so i take it you cant answer any of the points raised or questions addressed to you?

            because if you could, you would.

            The distraction/derailment game is the first identifier of trollism

        • srylands 3.1.2.2
          30 August 2013 at 12:14 pm

          “(real evidence , not some dross from rodger (sic) kerr)”

          Roger Kerr did more for high quality public policy analysis than any other New Zealander in the last 50 years. We all owe him gratitude.

          This tribute by Janet Albrechtsen says it all really.

          http://nzinitiative.org.nz/site/nzbr/files/1110%20Tribute%20to%20Roger.pdf

          • framu 3.1.2.2.1
            30 August 2013 at 12:16 pm

            so no evidence then?

            thought so

            • srylands 3.1.2.2.1.1
              30 August 2013 at 12:20 pm

              Calm down. You don’t have to use TG when it is built. You don’t pay any taxes or own a car so it won’t cost you.

              • framu …
                30 August 2013 at 12:24 pm

                im actually in the top tax bracket and own a car, and as pointed out to you earlier the funding comes from taxation of one form or another

                still no evidence though.

                • srylands …
                  30 August 2013 at 12:35 pm

                  “im actually in the top tax bracket and own a car,”

                  I’m impressed. Are you an Oriental bay Green? They park their Beemers in those cute little garages and walk to work in Jervois Quay. Then the Beeners come out on Sunday for the trip to Martinborough. (I am not making this up.)

                  Sorry I’ve lost the thread. I’m bored, and busy. The reality is that 14 months from now those big Komatsus sill be clawing away at the escarpement. Gerry will have had his “turning the first sod” thing with the silver shovel.

                  I suggest you investigate things you can change (the wisdom to know and all that 🙂 :-))

                  • framu …
                    30 August 2013 at 12:41 pm

                    so im lefty that works hard, owns a car and gets paid well – its not really that impressive

                    “Sorry I’ve lost the thread. I’m bored, and busy.”
                    – ahh, no evidence then. Thought not.

                    • srylands …
                      30 August 2013 at 12:45 pm

                      “a comment from yourself that occured some time ago and in a different set of replies ”

                      sorry I have lost the thread again 🙂

          • McFlock 3.1.2.2.2
            30 August 2013 at 1:20 pm

            The fact you had the stupidity to write that says it all about you.

            That fucker killed people with a pen.

          • thatguynz 3.1.2.2.3
            30 August 2013 at 3:16 pm

            Good god man, now you’re seriously taking the piss..

    • srylands 3.2
      30 August 2013 at 12:48 pm

      “youve got this all wrong – srylands has told us that he drives this route everyday from australia.”

      Just to clarify – I said i drove this route when I was NOt in Australia.

  4. srylands 4
    30 August 2013 at 10:23 am

    So charge a $15 toll to use it. Problem solved.

    • TheContrarian 4.1
      30 August 2013 at 10:26 am

      Does that include the cost of the flight from Australia?

    • Lightly 4.2
      30 August 2013 at 10:30 am

      except no-one will pay a $15 toll, especially not when the existing road is free (and there legally has to be a free alternative to toll roads)

      And the way National is setting it up, the taxpayer pays the 4120m a year to the private consortium regardless of traffic volumes…. so your ‘solution’ actually on succeeds in slashing the number of people using TG to nearly nothing and the taxpayer pays anyway.

      • srylands 4.2.1
        30 August 2013 at 11:23 am

        “except no-one will pay a $15 toll, especially not when the existing road is free (and there legally has to be a free alternative to toll roads)”

        The existing road would not be maintained to highway standards so would become unattractive. It will not be a viable alternatve for long.

        People would not pay a $15 toll. Well not every day. I predict the toll will be $5. ($200 per month if you commute Monday-Friday)

        My commuting costs (when I am in NZ) are (per month):

        $400 petrol (About $100 of this is fuel excise)
        $380 parking
        $200 (approx vehicle maintenance tyres etc)

        Total = $980 per month

        So this will rise to $1180 per month. (There may be some minor clawback with fuel savings).

        • bad12 4.2.1.1
          30 August 2013 at 11:33 am

          SSLands, the boss says you should get back to the adding machine as he wants those figures by lunchtime and is sick of you wanking about online when you are supposed to be, as the mere serf you are, making Him money…

          • srylands 4.2.1.1.1
            30 August 2013 at 11:47 am

            We have not had adding machines in this place since 1986.

            • bad12 4.2.1.1.1.1
              30 August 2013 at 1:52 pm

              Lolz, keep the fantasy working overtime SSLands, the place you claim to work wasn’t ‘there’ in 1986,

              Compulsive Liars when called on their lies cannot help but further complicate the original lie by adding too it layers of what they think will be believable…

              • srylands …
                30 August 2013 at 2:00 pm

                It is “srylands” not “SSlands. Warping the identity of others was a technique comminly used by the Stasi. It was also applied grotesquely by pakeha to Maori. Maori children at school were prevented from using their names. What you are doing is exactly the same.

                “Compulsive Liars when called on their lies cannot help but further complicate the original lie by adding too it layers of what they think will be believable…”

                I don’t know what you are on about. You simply resort to bad manners when called out on policy ideas that will make New Zealand a poorer place. My motivation in commenting on the site is totally altrusitic. I am concerned about the welfare of workers and the poor. The policies that you promote will harm these New Zealanders. It is exactly the same motivation that drove Roger Kerr (RIP).

                I accept you mean well but you are misguided. The world is moving in the polar opposite direction to that which you advocate. That makes you frustrated. That boils over into bad manners. I understand.

                • McFlock …
                  30 August 2013 at 2:15 pm

                  So making fun of your online pseudonym is exactly the same as the Stasi or systematic cultural oppression. Bit of a long bow to draw even for you, spylands.

                  whoops, just oppressed you over generations. My bad.

                • bad12 …
                  30 August 2013 at 2:18 pm

                  Roger Kerr, (RIPOFF) is what you mean??? aw SSLands have i bent your silver spoon,

                  Better go get it extracted, bent silver spoons create gastric congestion,(which may in turn lead to a restricted ability for you to create a fantasy) in essence as my forbears would have said to you,

                  ”Kaore Kai, kaore tutae, kaore tutae,koe mate,

                  PS, i do tho find my funny bone is definitely activated with your appeal to my better nature via the ”Maori kids were not allowed to use their own names” and could well imagine myself moved to tears if this were to be accompanied by a violin solo,

                  i can assure you i have full knowledge of what ‘Maori kids’ have been subjected to and can even tell you that at least one ‘Maori kid’ was hauled out of a social studies class in the early 1970’s and whipped with a piece of cane for inquiring where the brown half of the class was when Captain Cook discovered New Zealand,

                  Your having an internet debate with that ‘kid’ right now Boyo so save your f**king faux sympathy…

                • Murray Olsen …
                  30 August 2013 at 4:10 pm

                  Yeah, yeah, Roger Kerr loved the poor so much he just wanted to make more of them.
                  I think Sorrylands needs professional help. After his performance the other day, with more fucks per line than a WhaleSpew thread, he’s talking about bad manners? FFS. Seriously, get help before you do yourself some real harm.

    • Colonial Viper 4.3
      30 August 2013 at 10:30 am

      For someone who is against high taxation, and is also a believer in the Laffer Curve, you have weird ideas.

      • Steve Wrathall 4.3.1
        30 August 2013 at 12:55 pm

        Do you believe govt revenue would be maximised at 100% taxation? If not, you believe in the Laffer Curve

        • Colonial Viper 4.3.1.1
          31 August 2013 at 12:40 pm

          You asked me a question about a point feature, and then said it means I believe in the whole curve.

          That’s really stupid.

    • Macro 4.4
      30 August 2013 at 1:42 pm

      “So charge a $15 toll to use it. Problem solved.”

      Yeah Right! You know about toll roads don’t you!? User pays? Check this out:
      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/overpriced-and-underused-m6-toll-road-is-going-nowhere-fast-8606755.html
      Why waste money on what will be ulimately another white elephant!

      • srylands 4.4.1
        30 August 2013 at 1:48 pm

        “Why waste money on what will be ulimately another white elephant!”

        It will be highly used and wildly popular. It will be a valued asset for a century. In 20 years people will go on walking tours through the old road and gape in amazement that it was the road to Wellington.

        That’s why.

        • Macro 4.4.1.1
          30 August 2013 at 2:59 pm

          Do you have ANY understanding of History?
          http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/roads_1750_to_1900.htm
          Those who don’t are destined to repeat it – the fate of toll roads has always been one of disuse and ultimate falling in to disrepair and collapse. TG and all the other white elephants will be no different. A complete and utter waste of money for no good purpose other than to polish the egos of a few idiots.
          And read the other link in my comment above – you never know you MIGHT learn something.

        • Ad 4.4.1.2
          30 August 2013 at 5:01 pm

          If that was the case then Treasury’s procurement conditions for Transmission Gully would not stipulate that the PPP will not include road usage – and all its attendant modelling problems. Treasury has seen the utter failure of all those Australian tolled ppp’s over the last decade.

          Can anyone explain why New Zealand is one of the last countries in the world to keep pouring huge funding into motorways?

          • srylands 4.4.1.2.1
            30 August 2013 at 5:12 pm

            “Can anyone explain why New Zealand is one of the last countries in the world to keep pouring huge funding into motorways?”

            You are kidding right? What huge funding? What motorways?

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_OECD_countries_by_road_network_size#Motorway_network

            • Macro 4.4.1.2.1.1
              30 August 2013 at 8:22 pm

              Do you actually READ the links you provide? Or are you capable of understanding the content? Your link shows that NZ has a length of public roading per capita that exceeds the USA, and is the 4th highest in that category.
              It also carries this warning:
              “The factual accuracy of parts of this article (those related to tables) may be compromised due to out-of-date information. Please update this article to reflect recent events or newly available information. (November 2011)”
              Furthermore, you will note that according to the table Australia has NO motorways whatsoever! NZ’s are mostly expressways and do not count either – but they are nonetheless expensive to build.

              • srylands …
                30 August 2013 at 8:31 pm

                “Do you actually READ the links you provide? Or are you capable of understanding the content? Your link shows that NZ has a length of public roading per capita that exceeds the USA, and is the 4th highest in that category.”

                You are misreading the table! NZ has the 4th LOWEST quantum of motorways per capita (41.3) (And 1,2,3) are outliers).

                yes the data has limitations but the conclusion is unambiguous – in the OECD NZ stands out as having woefully under invested in high standard roads. The paucity of motorways in NZ compared to any other industrial country is very notable.

                Not sure why Australia is missing from the table. But they would rank in the top half. I can get the data if you insist.

                • srylands …
                  30 August 2013 at 8:36 pm

                  OK I re read your post:

                  Your link shows that NZ has a length of public roading per capita that exceeds the USA, and is the 4th highest in that category.

                  So what – “public roads” includes ANY road. Big deal.

                  My point was about the paucity of motorways. I stand by the data. We have under invested in high quality roads. TG will add 27 km. A tiny start. We really need a high standard motorway from Auckland to Wellington. It could probably be built for the equivalent cost of 2 years welfare payments ($50 billion)

  5. srylands 5
    30 August 2013 at 10:27 am

    “according to the Green Party, tolls are likely to contribute just a fraction of what the Government will pay back to a consortium over 25 years, with taxpayers still footing the lion’s share of the bill.”

    Also if teh article is quoting the Greens correctly, that claim is wrong. Taxpayers pay nothong for transmission gully. It is all out of the NLTF – it is all user pays. A toll would be better policy. In practice we will have a combination of both.

    It is a lot of fuss over a tiny 27 km motorway repalcing a third world road.

    Anyway it is a done deal. Time to move on.

    • Lightly 5.1
      30 August 2013 at 10:48 am

      Um. Where does the money in the NLTF come from ? the land of pixies. No, it comes from TAXES on fuel and road use (and some from the general taxation pool). So, it is funded by taxpayers.

      And it’s not ‘user pays’ if every taxpaying road user int he country pays for a road that only 10,000 people use. That’s, like, the opposite of user pays.

      • srylands 5.1.1
        30 August 2013 at 11:08 am

        “(and some from the general taxation pool)”

        What taxes are used to pay for state highways? (apart from fuel excise and road user charges)?

      • srylands 5.1.2
        30 August 2013 at 11:10 am

        “And it’s not ‘user pays’ if every taxpaying road user int he country pays for a road that only 10,000 people use. That’s, like, the opposite of user pays.”

        I don’t see the Greens arguing that all users of the rail service between the Coast and Wellington should pay for the full cost of the service. the current return trip from Paraparaumu costs about $22. That would be close to $50 if it had to cover the full cost.

        Road users subsidise rail (rightly) because it reduces road congestion.

        • framu 5.1.2.1
          30 August 2013 at 11:16 am

          whoop-dee-do

          for extra points can you show how this is even relevant to your claim that “Taxpayers pay nothong for transmission gully”?

          you are making this incredibly easy by the way.

          • srylands 5.1.2.1.1
            30 August 2013 at 11:28 am

            “you are making this incredibly easy by the way.”

            I’ll remember that over the next 6 years as I drive past giant Komatsu earth movers cutting through the escarpement next to macKays Crossing 🙂 I can’t wait.

            • framu 5.1.2.1.1.1
              30 August 2013 at 11:33 am

              whoop-dee-do

              can you show how this is even relevant to your claim that “Taxpayers pay nothong for transmission gully”?

  6. infused 6
    30 August 2013 at 10:42 am

    Can’t wait for it.

    Longer it’s left, the more expensive it’s getting. Hurry up and build the fucking thing.

  7. infused 7
    30 August 2013 at 10:50 am

    What’s the Greens alternative?

    • Lightly 7.1
      30 August 2013 at 11:07 am

      by alternative do you ‘where would they spend the $3 billion instead’ or ‘what would they spend on the Kapiti route, which has falling traffic volumes?’

      • infused 7.1.1
        30 August 2013 at 11:11 am

        Thanks for pointing out your short sited views. I love how you guys think. Can’t see past your feet.

        • Lanthanide 7.1.1.1
          30 August 2013 at 12:37 pm

          I would have thought spending $3b on a road with declining traffic volumes was short sighted, with the definition of “short sighted” being “only looking at the near future and not long-term trends”. Silly me.

  8. jaymam 8
    30 August 2013 at 11:00 am

    $15 per trip, that’s a very good way of showing what projects cost.
    May I ask everyone to work out all expensive projects on a per-something basis?
    e.g. the cost of a road as a cost per metre of one lane
    the cost of a building as a cost per square metre
    a sewage treatment plant as a cost per ratepayer
    an airport extension as a cost per metre
    etc
    then any outrageously expensive project is really easy to spot.

    • swan 8.1
      30 August 2013 at 11:08 am

      Cost of the CRL in Auckland is even worse. It is in the order of $20-$40 a trip depending on patronage projection etc.

      • Melb 8.1.1
        30 August 2013 at 11:20 am

        We won’t see the Greens make a nice picture about that!

      • Macro 8.1.2
        30 August 2013 at 8:25 pm

        link?
        or just out of your arse?

        • srylands 8.1.2.1
          30 August 2013 at 8:47 pm

          It is close. But of course the Greens only apply CBA when it suits. Thats why we have a Green Wellington mayor advocating a loner runway at Wellington airport and light rail TO the airport. Cost benefit rations? oops. We only apply those to NASTY roads. Then oppose building them anywhere any time forever.

    • alwyn 8.2
      30 August 2013 at 11:29 am

      A couple that spring to mind are.

      Auckland,s CRL is estimated at about $3 billion for 3.5 km.
      That’s about $860 million/ km.
      The extension of the Wellington runway, so beloved by the city’s Green mayor, is estimated at about $300 million for 300 metres.
      That’s a nice round billion dollars per kilometre.

      Transmission Gulley seems like a real bargain compared to those.

      • srylands 8.2.1
        30 August 2013 at 11:44 am

        “The extension of the Wellington runway, so beloved by the city’s Green mayor, is estimated at about $300 million for 300 metres.”

        Thats what gets me about the Greens. CBA is applied selectively. Why on earth did Celia think it was a good idea to give corporate welfare to Infratil? And then raise expectations the ratepayers would subsidise a runway?

        Back to TG. Isn’t the solution to privatise all transport ? – i.e sell all the current roads to the private sector and charge for their use. Do the same for PT. Then the market can determine capital projects and any subsidies for uneconomic transport can be visisble.

        The current debate over TG could be avoided. We have (mostly) got the Government out of decisions on which electricity assets should be built, and which aircraft Air NZ should purchase. The same can be done for roads. Those who can and will pay get roads to a standard thet are willing to pay for. Everyone else can stay out of it.

        • framu 8.2.1.1
          30 August 2013 at 11:52 am

          ” sell all the current roads to the private sector and charge for their use”

          god – thats got to be one of the stupidest ideas going and for the ideology that bangs on and on about choice i amazed you cant see the colossal hole in the argument.

          If a private company owns a road and you dont like their pricing how do you get your car to a different one?

          Ive bought the road out side your house in kapiti, australia – dont like my prices – tough shit because youve got no way to avoid paying me to connect to the wider network

          and thats before we even get to the dead weight of pointless duplication

          large scale, nationwide infrastucture is more efficient if its run as a single operator network. And its even better if there arent rentseekers squatting on it sucking profit out

          • srylands 8.2.1.1.1
            30 August 2013 at 12:06 pm

            You realise I am referring to the Kapiti region north of Wellington? It is not in Australia.

            • framu 8.2.1.1.1.1
              30 August 2013 at 12:07 pm

              oh god – youve gone all brett dale

              Its obvious that im reffering to the thread the other day when you were caught out in regards to you being in australia and kapiti at the same time.

              Just address the questions put to you wonder boy.

        • bad12 8.2.1.2
          30 August 2013 at 1:08 pm

          SSLands, i have no objection for the Transmission Gully route to be sold at market value to the likes of you to build a road on,

          i see no reason then to add even a cent of public money including fuel taxes to the building of Transmission Gully,

          You and your ilk can buy the land, pay to build the road ,and charge people whatever you want to drive on it,

          Problem solved, why are you not busy pressing the current Government to sell you the Transmission Gully route…

          • srylands 8.2.1.2.1
            30 August 2013 at 1:13 pm

            “Problem solved, why are you not busy pressing the current Government to sell you the Transmission Gully route…”

            Because construction is about to start. Problem solved.

            • Macro 8.2.1.2.1.1
              30 August 2013 at 8:28 pm

              So now is your chance – get in quick and make a killing!

              • srylands …
                30 August 2013 at 8:39 pm

                Get in quick on what? It is not even clear which of the two consortiums will win the tender. Luckily they are both high quality candidates. I am sure they will do a great job. It will be exciting to watch the road being built from next year. New Zealand has so much wasteful public spending, it is heartening to finally see an investment in something truly worthwhile.

                • Macro …
                  31 August 2013 at 1:28 pm

                  Look just put your tender in and make sure you leave some money on the table 😉 – it’s all yours and then you can charge whatever you like and if you make your toll high enuf then no one else will want to use, it and you can zip up and down to your hearts content!

  10. bad12 10
    30 August 2013 at 12:55 pm

    What the advocates for the ‘white elephant’ Transmission gully cannot seem to grasp is that in ‘rush hour traffic’ Transmission gully will allow them to access the Wellington Motorway at Linden/Tawa in a far faster manner than the Centennial highway in it’s present form accomplishes,

    What then, as the Ngaraunga interchange is currently a major ‘choke point’ for South bound traffic which at peak use times backs the traffic up on the Ngaraunga Gorge section and slows this back up to a stop start crawl adding further traffic from Transmission Gully to the Wellington Motorway in a faster time frame than is currently achieved via the Centennial Highway will simply exacerbate the wait times in the current peak time snarl up on the Ngaraunga Gorge,

    Thus Transmission Gully will have No benefit for the peak time traveler in either time or fuel savings, simply giving the illusion of speed over the Kapiti to Linden/Tawa stretch of Motorway whereupon the ‘choke point’ of the Ngaraunga interchange will remove any and all savings in time and fuel gained,

    As far as roads goes, the only possible means of achieving any time and/or fuel savings from building Transmission Gully would necessitate the addition to the Wellington Motorway at the point where the Ngaraunga Interchange disgorges the contents Kapiti/Porirua/Tawa traffic onto the Urban Motorway the addition of at least 2 extra lanes,

    The problems thus created tho would make this a 5 lane spaghetti junction with both Hutt and Kapiti traffic bound for Wellington having to negotiate 5 lanes so as to be traveling in the ‘right’ lane in a very short length of motorway to be able to exit the Urban Motorway at their desired off-ramp,

    One mistake on any give day would simply result in chaos with the whole South bound system blocked for hours…

    • srylands 10.1
      30 August 2013 at 1:01 pm

      I agree with that. The solution is twofold:

      1. Improve the Ngaraunga interchange (widening the urban motorway to 4 lanes would do the trick)\

      2. Introduce congestion charges to smooth out the peak. In the morning the congestion is only a real problem at that interchange from about 0740 to 0850. At school holidays when traffic volumes at that time fall by 10% the problem largely goes away. So simple – introduce pricing to move 10% of the traffic to earlier or later.

      • bad12 10.1.1
        30 August 2013 at 1:21 pm

        SSLands, you need not exercise your particular ‘intelligence’ with this particular question, simply close your eyes and change the fantasy you are in, Wellington, flick, Sydney, flick, Melbourne,and flick, back to Wellington,

        While as a ‘thought’ this sounds like a simple solution it would simply create a ‘high accident zone’ where the two flows Kapiti v Hutt would have a very small stretch of highway to negotiate over 4 or 5 lanes to ensure they were in the correct lane so as to be able to exit the Urban Motorway at the particular off ramp for their destination…

      • bad12 10.1.2
        30 August 2013 at 1:34 pm

        So now the solution moves from $3 billion + to 5 billion plus dollars, each trip now being 25 dollars each way as any such ‘fix’ would require an extra lane on the North bound stretch of the Urban motorway from the Aotea Quay on ramp to the Ngaraunga interchange,

        Congestion charges???so that in your fantasy we should spend 5 or 6 billion dollars for you to shave 3 minutes off of as your little fantasy tells us is a non peak time journey in both directions,

        We simply come back to a perfectly adequate and underused rail system where it was shown that tripling the number of car parks available at Paraparaumu rail station tripled the number of people making use of park and ride,

        Paraparaumu rail station’s car park is now full again on every working day and turning the one level of tarmac into 2 or 3 parking buildings with apartment complexes built on upper levels would take 100’s more vehicles off of the road network…

        • srylands 10.1.2.1
          30 August 2013 at 5:45 pm

          “Paraparaumu rail station’s car park is now full again on every working day and turning the one level of tarmac into 2 or 3 parking buildings with apartment complexes built on upper levels would take 100′s more vehicles off of the road network…”

          Good grief. I missed that gem of an idea.

          Living in an apartment above the Paraparaumu railway station would be so cool. (NOT!)

          Is this where the Kiwibuild places are going to go? The only people that would live above the railway station at Paraparaumu are refugees and long term welfare no hopers and gang members. Welcome to the ghetto. It woud then become a cesspit that nobody would go near. End of park and ride.

          • McFlock 10.1.2.1.1
            30 August 2013 at 5:52 pm

            only if the apartments were built to the lowest standard possible by absentee property developers.

            • srylands 10.1.2.1.1.1
              30 August 2013 at 5:58 pm

              “only if the apartments were built to the lowest standard possible by absentee property developers.’

              Um no. Even if they were built to the highest building standards, living above the Paraparaumu railway station would be a nightmare. Hence the only way to get people to live there would be to make them cheap.

              • McFlock …
                30 August 2013 at 6:05 pm

                Um yes.

                Decent building standards with a couple of levels of parking and maybe a small shopping complex as sound and vibration buffers would work wonders. Probably be better than quite a few inner-city apartments/hotel rooms I’ve been in.

                • bad12 …
                  30 August 2013 at 6:12 pm

                  indeed, considering that such apartment complexes would be built above any numbers of floors of car parking and if required a shopping floor such apartments would be ‘interesting’ places to live along with a great use of the space and providing the means for reducing number of vehicles on the Highway system at peak flow times…

                  • srylands …
                    30 August 2013 at 6:15 pm

                    “such apartments would be ‘interesting’ places to live along with a great use of the space and providing the means for reducing number of vehicles on the Highway system at peak flow times…”

                    Great – why don’t you approach a bank with that idea and develop the complex? You could be known as the Kapiti ghetto master.

                    • Ad …
                      31 August 2013 at 8:50 am

                      They already have in Auckland. The whole lot sold off the plans, and it’s now under construction. Check it out it’s in New Lynn. It’s a partnership between Council and Infratil Properties Ltd.

                      The transit station, shared space area, library etc have all won massive architectural and construction awards.

                  • srylands …
                    30 August 2013 at 6:19 pm

                    “indeed, considering that such apartment complexes would be built above any numbers of floors of car parking and if required a shopping floor such apartments would be ‘interesting’ places to live along with a great use of the space and providing the means for reducing number of vehicles on the Highway system at peak flow times…”

                    Right so propert developers always have an idea to making a buck. Why do you think this might not have happened?

                    • McFlock …
                      30 August 2013 at 6:26 pm

                      Right so propert developers always have an idea to making a buck. Why do you think this might not have happened?

                      Too busy selling bush-girt mansions with sea views at the end of the proposed holiday highways. /sarc

                      Seriously, is your argument against an idea simply that every single idea worth doing has already been done?

                    • bad12 …
                      30 August 2013 at 6:41 pm

                      Its obviously had one drink to many again, i suppose we are providing some good in the world by keeping it busy, if it were not venting its bile here it would probably be engaged in some act of drunken family violence..

                    • srylands …
                      30 August 2013 at 7:55 pm

                      “Its obviously had one drink to many again, i suppose we are providing some good in the world by keeping it busy, if it were not venting its bile here it would probably be engaged in some act of drunken family violence..”

                      You are the one that vents bile. Typical Left nastiness. You can really see how the Satsi managed to recruit so many citizens. A state in NZ I am sure you sould be totally at home at.

                    • McFlock …
                      30 August 2013 at 9:16 pm

                      spylands, did you ever notice that you’re a hypocrite as well as a fucking cherry pickin’ liar?

                    • srylands …
                      30 August 2013 at 11:28 pm

                      “spylands, did you ever notice that you’re a hypocrite as well as a fucking cherry pickin’ liar?”

                      No but I noticed you are rude.

                    • McFlock …
                      30 August 2013 at 11:34 pm

                      just a different flavour of rudeness from your own.

                      you cherry-pickin’ lyin’ hypocrite

                    • Ad …
                      31 August 2013 at 8:52 am

                      You should also have a good look at what Cooper and Co have done around and over Britomart over the last decade. It’s commercially successful and people love it.

                • srylands …
                  30 August 2013 at 6:12 pm

                  Whooa, no no. You are taking the piss.

                  Why would anyone want to live in the middle of Paraparaumu near the bloody railway station !!? Within 10 minutes drive there are fantastic places for housing (or exisiting houses) with waterfront, beach, or bush vistas.

                  The whole centre of Paraparaumu is vile. It is a great place to buy your groceries, or go to Mitre 10 and then race home again. The railway station is great becuase the train does provide an important alternative transport mode. But living above the railway station? If this is the thinking that goes into Kiwibuild it will be a source of homes for the poor and desperate. But maybe that is what is intended.

                  • McFlock …
                    30 August 2013 at 6:22 pm

                    Lol

                    I thought your objections were about the engineering practicality, but apparently it’s because you couldn’t imagine anybody wanting to live in that area. Even if things really are that bad, it’s called “urban renewal“. Look it up some time.

                    • srylands …
                      30 August 2013 at 6:25 pm

                      Of course my objections were not engineering based.

                      If it happens it will be a Hoisng NZ ghetto for the poor. Maybe that is what you meant. If so my apologies – that would work.

                    • McFlock …
                      30 August 2013 at 6:32 pm

                      You’re such an ugly little soul, aren’t you.

                      If national do it, it would be a ghetto.
                      If it were done by someone who hates people on less than $100k p.a., like you do, it would be a ghetto.

                      If it were done by people with half a brain who realised that the target market included commuters to the CBD, as well as providing a hub for local infrastructure beyond transport, then it could be quite a good plan for the developers and especially the community.

                      It can go either way, yes. But done by someone competent, it would probably be bloody good.

                  • fender …
                    30 August 2013 at 6:27 pm

                    There is no actual centre as such in Paraparaumu, and there’s no “vile” areas either. The new council/ library area would be ideal to develop into a “centre”.

                    There’s merit in the idea to have apartments near the railway station for those who wish to live there. The Paikakariki railway has something similar sounding nearby.

                  • Ad …
                    31 August 2013 at 8:55 am

                    You should also check out what is being planned in Otahuhu, and Panmure, and Avondale, and others.

                    In fact the really big one is the $100m+ development straddling the Manukau rail station by Manukau Institute of Technology. Close to weathertight on that job, with opening mid-2014.

                    The market is speaking and it’s simply people want that choice to live and work around public transport.

          • bad12 10.1.2.1.2
            30 August 2013 at 6:06 pm

            And you whine like a beaten dog about me being rude, that’s just one long spew of rudeness, fuck off TR0LL people live above and next to railway lines all over the world,

            Considering that you do not even know where the large carpark at the Paraparaumu rail-station is i will just put your latest idiocy down to a faulty fantasy facility within your wee cranial cavity,(better get that bent silver spoon checked out),

            i also recommend building such parking facilities at most of the rail stations on the Kapiti-Wellington rail line, along with apartment complexes built above them all,

            My preference would be an apartment built above a park’n’ride at Paremata rail station..

            • srylands 10.1.2.1.2.1
              30 August 2013 at 6:16 pm

              “My preference would be an apartment built above a park’n’ride at Paremata rail ”

              ha ha ha

              NOBODY WOULD LIVE THERE. It would be a GHETTO.

              • bad12 …
                30 August 2013 at 6:31 pm

                Obviously been hitting the bottle with ‘its’ latest splurge of idiocy, a ghetto really, say four stories of parking, probably more like 7 when the Whitby commuters are factored in with any number of apartments built above,

                A grand view up and down the Porirua Harbor, fishing in the channel a few steps from the door, a major sports field across the bridge as well as a supermarket and cafes,

                Enough land around Paremata rail station to build 5 or 6 such buildings, sounds like a real ghetto to me….

                • srylands …
                  30 August 2013 at 7:57 pm

                  “Obviously been hitting the bottle with ‘its’ latest splurge of idiocy, ”

                  More left vileness. A prelude to the NZ version of the Stasi. First dehumanise. Second off to reeducation camps.

                  • bad12 …
                    30 August 2013 at 8:01 pm

                    Finished slapping the wife and kids into line have you, nah a re-education camp by definition would suggest that there is something salvable, in your case it’s obvious that there aint…

                • srylands …
                  30 August 2013 at 7:58 pm

                  ” grand view up and down the Porirua Harbor, fishing in the channel a few steps from the door, a major sports field across the bridge as well as a supermarket and cafes,”

                  So invest your money and build it. Oh I forgot Kiwibuild is coming.

            • srylands 10.1.2.1.2.2
              30 August 2013 at 6:17 pm

              “i also recommend building such parking facilities at most of the rail stations on the Kapiti-Wellington rail line, along with apartment complexes built above them all”

              ha hah hahahahahaha bwuh hahhahhaha

              • Ad …
                31 August 2013 at 8:56 am

                Most suburbs near rail lines in Auckland are having this planned precisely. Over half are already in commercial discussion.

            • srylands 10.1.2.1.2.3
              30 August 2013 at 6:23 pm

              “people live above and next to railway lines all over the world,

              Yes – poor people live next to railway lines all over the world. Show me one example of a desirable residential property right next to a railway line? (no no above the subway near Knightsbridge in London) – next to a railway line like the line going through Paraparaumu?

              If you are suggesting that Housing NZ build flats for poor people next to Paraparaumu railway station, I agree that is fine. They can’t afford cars and it is great that they have access to transport. For the rest of us – FORGET IT.

              • bad12 …
                30 August 2013 at 6:34 pm

                Oh we forgot about you the first time you polluted the atmosphere round here by posting a comment…

              • happynz …
                30 August 2013 at 6:39 pm

                Show me one example of a desirable residential property right next to a railway line? (no no above the subway near Knightsbridge in London) – next to a railway line like the line going through Paraparaumu?

                Adjacent to just about any BTS station in Bangkok you’ll find luxury high-rises.

              • McFlock …
                30 August 2013 at 6:43 pm

                Any house one the west side of otago harbour, with the exception of Ravensbourne because it gets fuck-all sun.

              • fender …
                30 August 2013 at 7:29 pm

                Yeah Srylands these projects look like ghettos.

              • Ad …
                31 August 2013 at 9:07 am

                Brtitomart. Some of the country’s most expensive real estate. And multitudinous apartment towers. All one massive public-private concession.

    • TheContrarian 10.2
      30 August 2013 at 1:10 pm

      “One mistake on any give day would simply result in chaos…”

      Yes, just like the Centennial highway.

      • bad12 10.2.1
        30 August 2013 at 1:38 pm

        The traffic on the Centennial Highway is insignificant when compared to the flows at the Ngaraunga Interchange/Wellington Urban Motorway,

        Want to avoid traffic accidents, try park and ride on the train…

        • srylands 10.2.1.1
          30 August 2013 at 1:45 pm

          “Want to avoid traffic accidents, try park and ride on the train…”

          The train takes too long when you add in transfers to and from the station. Plus you get wet if it rains. Then there are the viruses and dirt and school kids you get exposed to.

          I used the train for 20 years before switching to a car. I wouldn’t use the train now even if it was free. But.. I would invest more money in PT – it is great for the poor and the old and those who can’t drive – so it reduces road congestion. That is why road users subsidise PT users.

          • bad12 10.2.1.1.1
            30 August 2013 at 1:57 pm

            It’s pretty obvious to us all that the only train you have ever used is ‘the fantasy train of thought’ which allows you to hop aboard and be a million different people in a multitude of places at the blink of an eyelid…

            • Murray Olsen 10.2.1.1.1.1
              30 August 2013 at 4:19 pm

              He’d be the closest to Walter Mitty that I’ve ever come across in real life.

            • srylands 10.2.1.1.1.2
              30 August 2013 at 5:33 pm

              “It’s pretty obvious to us all that the only train you have ever used is ‘the fantasy train of thought’ which allows you to hop aboard and be a million different people in a multitude of places at the blink of an eyelid…”

              When you lose the battle of ideas as the world goes in the opposite direction to your dream, you resort to rudeness. I have seen this before and it is predominantly Lefties that do it. That is why Lefties are under-represented at the cool parties. Nobody likes rude people.

              You can keep it up. It just reinforces the stereotypes that mainstream New Zealanders have of the Left.

              • bad12 …
                30 August 2013 at 5:42 pm

                Having never met Bobody i cannot begin to imagine what He or She likes or dislikes, and a ‘cool party’ is a matter of opinion and your’s dont count for much round here buckwheat in case you haven’t noticed…

                • srylands …
                  30 August 2013 at 5:47 pm

                  “Having never met Bobody i cannot begin to imagine what He or She likes or dislikes, and a ‘cool party’ is a matter of opinion and your’s dont count for much round here buckwheat in case you haven’t noticed…”

                  What?

              • fender …
                30 August 2013 at 5:48 pm

                Right wingers have boring parties….and they ring up noise control on themselves…

                “What?” saved by the edit eh
                I was going to ask about this Bobody person too.

              • McFlock …
                30 August 2013 at 5:48 pm

                spylands, you don’t like public transport because you don’t want to be in the same carriage as youths (and probably beneficiaries), and you say that making fun of a pseudonym is exactly the same as generations of oppression.

                And you whine about “rude”.

                fuck off.

              • Ad …
                31 August 2013 at 9:02 am

                Auckland will always now be car dominated, but don’t mistake that for people choosing it. When the choice was taken away for public transport in the form of trams being stopped, the generation who used public transport fell massively and did not return. The dominance of the motorway system with arterial roads remains

                But we know when we give them the choice, the public take it. The evidence is on the routes in which public transport has had the same dedicated infrastructure spent and built as the car has had. That’s the North Shore busway, among others.

            • Greywarbler 10.2.1.1.1.3
              30 August 2013 at 6:38 pm

              Is there a system in the world where you drive your car onto train pallets and travel by train with your car behind you, or even sitting in your car, so getting to destination with transport and not clogging roads?

              • bad12 …
                30 August 2013 at 6:48 pm

                From memory, the Channel Tunnel uses a system something like that, but it would be a bit ‘bulky’ to try and use such a system as a form of mass transport for the daily commute…

              • McFlock …
                30 August 2013 at 6:57 pm

                lol

                That was fun to spitball in my mind!

                Carriage halts next to carpark – side lowers to be vehicle ramp into carriage – cars drive straight up into carpark perpendicular to line of train – side raises and train departs – when station reached, other side lowers and car drives straight off, fee charged according to license plate like congestion charge – egress side raises, ingress side lowers for cars at that station to drive straight on board, and so on…

                Does nothing for inner city congestion, though, so I suspect that’s where it’ll fall down. Might have other uses, though. Also rests on the concept that the vehicles don’t need to be tied down (unlike ships), and that the carriages have enough ventilation in case some numpty leaves their engines on, even in a tunnel.

  11. captain hook 11
    30 August 2013 at 1:06 pm

    Hey dont knock it.
    This is so kiwis can live their dream.
    You know.
    Get to Palmerston five minutes quicker on a Saturday morning so they can go to Mcdonalds and then go home again.

    • Hayden 11.1
      30 August 2013 at 8:27 pm

      Palmerston North, unfortunately. I remember the actual Palmerston being quite scenic.

  12. Greywarbler 12
    30 August 2013 at 6:42 pm

    I think the deliberately obtuse like srylands should have to pay to continue their argument, as in the John Cleese and was it Eric Idle or Michael Palin sketch. Perhaps the system could freeze up after 5 until money changed hands.

  13. Sable 13
    30 August 2013 at 6:46 pm

    As long as National politicians have fat share packages in the companies building the motorway I’m sure its money well wasted (oops I mean spent or is that squandered?) Stuff it I’m off to buy some shares…..

  14. billbrowne 14
    30 August 2013 at 10:18 pm

    Just make the trains from Kapiti free for like, forever, with the caveat that no coasters are allowed to complain about roads or trains ever again – or they have to use the Akatarawa road for the next, say, ten trips.

    Then we can just forget about them and get on with our lives.

    • Macro 14.1
      30 August 2013 at 10:31 pm

      Hehehe! The Akatarawas was my favourite route for getting from Upper Hutt to Paraparaumu Airport when flying on the weekends – used to do it in under an hour in a low flying spitfire.
      The first car a mate and i owned was a standard 10. cost us 10 quid. After school we would take turns in driving up to the top of the Akatarawas and seeing how quickly we could do the round trip. It all stopped when the car ran its big ends. His dad (obviously knowing what was going on) suggested we wreck it – which we did and netted 15 quid! it paid for our petrol. Every other car since has cost me money..

      • bad12 14.1.1
        31 August 2013 at 9:26 am

        That’s a grand old road apparently chiseled out of the hills by pick and shovel during the 1930’s depression years,

        Closed as often as it is open by the atrocious weather that the mountain range attracts, monster slips and bridges washed out in the valley on the Hutt side by the huge amounts of rainfall,

        i have only recently stopped being a regular user of the Akatarawa road as my use of the Forest Park accessed from the ‘saddle’ has been curtailed by my failing laborers bones,

        Funnily enough i remember during the earlier years of the Transmission Gully debate someone from within the Kapiti District Council calling for the Akatarawa Road to be upgraded and used as the alternative route for Kapiti traffic to access the Hutt Valley,

        The idea didn’t fly too high and my thought at the time was that the Kaptiti Council was floating such because of the high cost of maintaining the road and they were using aspot of wishful thinking hoping the Government would take it off their hands…

      • Greywarbler 14.1.2
        31 August 2013 at 10:14 am

        Memories, those were the days of our youth.

  15. Chooky 15
    31 August 2013 at 9:45 am

    From the Perches…need for long term transport planning for all Nzers….not short term financial gain for a few crony capitalists

    *All state highways and motorways should be free…there should be no tolls, which will only penalise the poor

    *Multi- billion motorways should not be built…in time of recession and oil crisis ( this is crazy!)

    * Emphasis should be placed on fast efficient rail in both islands….also economical state subsidised public transport (future oil crisis)…cf Switzerland with very efficient public economic transport

    * …Existing roads should be upgraded for safety but not rebuilt…(eg coastal run out of Wellington is great with the no passing wire barriers!)… Note: road accidents happen everywhere ….even and especially on straight , infrequently used roads in the country side…human nature being what it is …people nod off, get drunk,get careless etc..People have to learn to drive for the conditions and take more time)

    * all transport systems should be for the public good of ALL NZers….not the greasy pockets of VULGAR GREASEY CRONYIST CAPITALISTS and their dreams at the end of roads eg the proposed alternative to Wellington airport out at the coast (incidentally on fiercely contested Maori land)

    * we should be thinking TOURISM….(huge motorways in a small scenic country is a no! no! … tourists can go to LA or Germany for that…they come here to get away from that!)….cute scenic roads safe for biking is the way to go( rail for fast safe public transport and heavy goods transport… heavy trucks should be discouraged )

    • Populuxe1 15.1
      31 August 2013 at 6:49 pm

      “*All state highways and motorways should be free…there should be no tolls, which will only penalise the poor”

      Tolls are a useful way of encouraging use of car pooling and use of public transport. The poor are more likely to be using public transport anyway – penalise the rich for the privilege of driving.

      “*Multi- billion motorways should not be built…in time of recession and oil crisis ( this is crazy!)”

      Um, isn’t that what they used to do during the Depression?

      “* Emphasis should be placed on fast efficient rail in both islands….also economical state subsidised public transport (future oil crisis)…cf Switzerland with very efficient public economic transport ”

      Which is probably why tolls would be a good idea.

      “* …Existing roads should be upgraded for safety but not rebuilt…(eg coastal run out of Wellington is great with the no passing wire barriers!)… Note: road accidents happen everywhere ….even and especially on straight , infrequently used roads in the country side…human nature being what it is …people nod off, get drunk,get careless etc..People have to learn to drive for the conditions and take more time)”

      To properly upgrade existing roads for safety would actually cost significantly more than simply building new ones to code. Your fatalism also suggests you have a misanthropic hatred of humanity.

      “* all transport systems should be for the public good of ALL NZers….not the greasy pockets of VULGAR GREASEY CRONYIST CAPITALISTS and their dreams at the end of roads eg the proposed alternative to Wellington airport out at the coast (incidentally on fiercely contested Maori land)”

      Nurse! Nurse! Time for Chooky’s dried frog pills. He thinks it’s the nineteenth century again!

      “* we should be thinking TOURISM….(huge motorways in a small scenic country is a no! no! … tourists can go to LA or Germany for that…they come here to get away from that!)….cute scenic roads safe for biking is the way to go( rail for fast safe public transport and heavy goods transport… heavy trucks should be discouraged )”

      Tourists don’t want to drive shitty roads in their campervans. They want roads like they’re used to. Cute scenic roads are distracting and known death traps.

  16. Greywarbler 16
    31 August 2013 at 10:23 am

    Disagree that all state highways should be free. Toll roads, which are alternative to state highways, should be charged for. But buses and trains should have low cost options for poor people’s travel. I went to Christchurch from Nelson for $54 the other day, nice trip. I might go by train and put up with the waiting round between bus arrival and train arrival if the cost wasn’t about $100. That is if it is running at all. If the round trip ticket was sold at reduced price for age one way, and half that for the return trip, I might consider it. But NZ Ril marketing and strategic planning hasn’t been able to cope with such ideas apparently. I may be wrong about this particular matter but it would have to compete with bus travel for me to consider.

  17. Swan 17
    31 August 2013 at 10:24 am

    Macro,

    Using the available patronage projections you get to about $20-40 depending on assumed cost of capital. The key thing about the CRL is even after the $3b investment, operational costs alone will have to be subsidised, and obviously capital costs 100% subsidised.

  18. Hilary 18
    31 August 2013 at 12:07 pm

    Develop the airport at Paraparaumu into an international one. There is already double tracked electric rail between Paraparaumu and Wellington with quite new carriages (all upgraded a couple of years ago). It just needs to be extended from Paraparaumu airport to Wellington airport and for the line to Palmerston North to be electrified with regular day services. The remaining road traffic would shrink. Look what Sydney has done over the last 30 years. Rail is frequent and efficient and each of those double decker carriages takes about 100 passengers in speedy comfort. It would cost a lot less than the outdated Transmission Gully and the Kapiti Expressway.

    • fender 18.1
      31 August 2013 at 1:12 pm

      “Develop the airport at Paraparaumu into an international one.”

      Not enough space for that to happen without another expressway style eviction/demolition edict. For years this area has become increasingly built up with new homes. But since we are going to have this expressway soon where overpasses are going to be ugly structures dominating the skyline, what’s a bit more destruction in the name of “national significance”.

  19. Martin 19
    31 August 2013 at 12:31 pm

    Let’s have another ME war [for cheap gas/oil]
    import more cars and build more/bigger roads to run them on.
    Lets fly everywhere, everyday.
    Let’s get drunk on infinite growth on a finite planet
    and then when the weather burns go “it’s not climate change”

    when we could have localised,
    lived within our means and
    developed real communities instead of
    stuffing a capital city into a tight space and
    its lemming culture of mass commuting 30km x 2 everyday..

    probably too late now.

  20. RedBaronCV 20
    31 August 2013 at 12:34 pm

    1. Take Srylands free Wellington Carpark away from him.
    2. Allow him for a large fee to hook up his own personal railway carriage – then he could blatantly consume – “this is more expensive than a beamer..”
    3. Even by the standards of the Righties Transmission Gully is expensive. Shifting the airport would be cheaper?

    • srylands 20.1
      31 August 2013 at 7:02 pm

      “Take Srylands free Wellington Carpark away from him.”

      It is not free. It is $360 per month (GST excl)

      “Even by the standards of the Righties Transmission Gully is expensive.”

      I assume you meant to say “even by the standards of the eighties”?

  21. Erentz 21
    1 September 2013 at 7:19 am

    Better option:

    Upgrade centennial highway: $500 million (unfortunately bad planning has started to get in the way)

    Deep bore bypass for SH1 from the Terrace tunnel to Kilbirnie: 1-1.35 billion (they will be spending about 800-1000 million on the current ad hoc flyover/tunnel/underpass/Tce-tunnel-duplication anyway), so that should be:500 million difference

    High quality light rail to miramar and the airport: 700 million

    1.7 billion. Not sure what else is reasonable to spend 1.3 billion on in wellington at this stage, other than the various regional improvements already planned. So put that into other things: housing and Auckland rail.

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