Wastewatch: measuring graduate incomes

Written By: - Date published: 8:33 am, March 14th, 2012 - 22 comments
Categories: Steven Joyce, tertiary education - Tags:

The Nats abandoned their wastewatch.co.nz site a few years back after being unable to identify significant waste. They should have just waited a few years. Now, the examples are neverending.
Today’s case: Steven Joyce’s plan to publish the average incomes of graduates of different courses. A huge administrative task to tell us nothing.

They’re going to do this by data-matching incomes of people five years after graduation. That means linking your IRD data to your study data. Your qualification provider already gives some info to IRD for student loans but IRD doesn’t get all your study details – which degrees you’re taking, what qualifications you end up with. So, they’re going to have to go through and start matching all this data. And it will be for a huge number of people to get statistically meaningful results. Lots of bureaucrat man-hours there.

Do they have the legal power to do that? Not without your permission I wouldn’t have thought. IRD personal data is closely held and not released for mere statistical exercises like this. Reckon they would have to get your permission. More paperwork.

Joyce has offered no costing for this plan. I guess it’ll be ‘met from baselines’, which means cutting other stuff that is actually useful.

And what are we told at the end? That people who take some courses earn a statistically significant amount more than others. Well, as they say, duh. Does that mean we should shut down the low-earning courses and bump everyone into the high-earning ones?

Well…
a) the high-earning course may require abilities that not everyone has
b) courses are different lengths. Are we going to close down diplomas and make everyone study for seven years at medical school
c) in a diversified economy we need lower paid occupations just as much as we need higher paying ones (which is one reason why lower-paid jobs should be paid more, they’re vital too). If we discover that people 5 years out of medical school are paid more than people five years out of nurses’ college does that mean we need more doctors and fewer nurses?
d) some professions have gradual, ongoing advancement, others don’t. I would think that, say, a plumber with five years’ will have progressed quite rapidly in that industry’s income scale, whereas an academic with five years’ experience after getting their doctorate is still close to bottom of the heap.
e) there’s obvious gender and ethnic issues. A woman five years’ out of tertiary is less likely to be in the workforce than a man (labourforce participation rate for 25-29 men – 89.5%, women 74.5%) because women are more likely to be raising children. Maori and Pacific Islanders have higher unemployment levels. So, courses that are prominently taken by women, Maori, or Pacific Islanders are likely to show lower incomes than those taken by Pakeha men – that’s without even talking about the pay discrimination factor.

So, those are all reasons why any data you get on different incomes from different qualifications is going to be next to worthless without some pretty serious caveats. I’m sure there are more I just haven’t thought of off the top of my head.

But, finally, there’s a more fundamental issue – education isn’t all about the money.

In launching this policy, Steven Joyce lamented the fact that he took photography in fifth form. Apparently, that was a waste of time that would have been better spent learning how to cut dirty deals with casinos or something. It’s a shame if Joyce feels that way about everything he’s learned that has directly contributed to his career (and by that measure, surely his degree in Zoology is a bigger waste).

But, is it really such a waste that he took photography and never used it professionally? By any economic measure he still turned out pretty good, and taking photography allowed him to experience something more – learn a skill and an art for the beauty of it. And, if he had really enjoyed it and been any good, he could have even made a decent living of it.

I wish he had, come to think of it. Would have saved the rest of the country from a lot of half-baked ideas and dirty deals.

22 comments on “Wastewatch: measuring graduate incomes ”

  1. Lanthanide 1

    In principle I don’t have too much of a problem with this, although I would have thought there was enough pay information out there already? The job seeking sites certainly have this sort of ‘average remuneration’ stuff available, I’m pretty sure hich-school jobs counsellors do as well. So what is new/different about this information that makes it necessary or better?

    Also I wonder why they need to go through this whole individual rigmarole process to find it out, so we’ll get the first data 5 years from now.

    Everyone who is employed pays (or should be paying) ACC, which has a huge number of job classifications available. It should be possible to connect people’s wage payments with their employers and then check the business code of their employer. This would give a very rough and ready approach (a secretary at a factory might be misclassified?) but it seems like no new information would need to be collected to do this (except possibly permission as Zet suggests).

    • shreddakj 1.1

      Don’t forget, National love to do everything the expensive, inefficient way. Like building more roads, instead of funding a decent public transport system.

    • Blighty 1.2

      yeah, it’s not that different parts of the government don’t have your info. it’s whether they have the right to data-match, what the exercise would cost, whether it would tell you anything useful, and the reductionist approach to education that pervades the whole thing.

  2. The Baron 2

    Oh noes, Zetty has his knickers in a knot again after interviewing his keyboard.

    All this proposal involves is providing more information to prospective students, some of whom may be interested in the likely salaries they may achieve, to allow them to make more informed decisions.

    Its you who has made up the other 70% of scare mongery in your post, Zetty.

    Why is the left so scared of transparency and informed decision making? This, teacher and school performance – in fact, its anything that might hold public servants to account isn’t it?

    • Blighty 2.1

      The issue is that merely looking at average incomes doesn’t contribute to informed decision-making.

  3. Bored 3

    Why is the left so scared of transparency and informed decision making?…..one might ask that question about the rationale for asset sales, just one example from the myriad of issues that Nact have tried to spin doctor away in-case detailed examination reveals that informed decision making is entirely absent.

    By the way why don’t you change your name to The Barren? At least then there might be some transparency to everybody about the intellectual wasteland behind the comments.

  4. The Baron 4

    Why not? Knowing that the average BA History grad earns $25k a year at maccas versus the average B.Sci biochem grad on $60k sounds pretty handy to me if I was 18 agian.

    I know there are heaps of other factors in play. Why does that make providing one of them useless?

    • The Baron 4.1

      Fail – this was meant to be in reply to Blighty above as 2.1.1

    • Blighty 4.2

      because if you don’t provide the full picture, you give misleading answers.

    • Lanthanide 4.3

      Apparently you already know this, so why do we need a brand-new government initiative, which won’t be free, to find out?

      I suggested one alternative that may be cheaper than the scheme that has been proposed.

    • Colonial Viper 4.4

      Uni grads join the unemployment scrap heap like everyone else, although they have bigger debts.

      A sad declining energy depleting civilisation which has no economic room for arts, history, language or culture. Might as well become a race of free market Ferengis.

  5. s y d 5

    i suspect that graduate earnings are going to be directly linked student loans and the supposed ability to pay back – this will be the ‘shake up’ hinted at yesterday.
    If you want to study photography or zoology, by all means go ahead, but the amount you can ‘borrow’ will be severely restricted.
    However, I’m sure that loans will be directed to where there there is a supposed expectation of payback – I foresee legions of accountants and lawyers taking us into the brighter future.

    • Colonial Viper 5.1

      Accountants and lawyers, well that’s a really productive economy we can build with those, should get Christchurch rebuilt asap.

  6. tc 6

    All roads lead to Rome……doing a low income producing course can often lead a person to a high income one as they must find their own path in life.
    How many of us high earning professionals are in areas we never started on at Uni ? More mother knows best bullshit from the biggest bullshiter of them all.
    Must be a slow day in dirty deal central, this is a precursor for some pretermined policy announcement and will play the role of supporting data when the time comes.

  7. mac1 7

    Spot on, Zetetic.

    Current research would compel Minister Joyce to value his year 11 photography course.

    “In a landmark Australian study, the power of the arts in the classroom has been proven incontestably and irrefutably to lift test results in literacy and numeracy to the equivalent of an extra year of school.”

    Read more here- http://www.artshub.com.au/au/news-article/opinions/arts/www.artshub.com.au/au/news-article/opinions/arts/the-transformative-power-of-the-arts-in-education-187929

    Government intervention in this area would certainly be cost effective.

  8. ropata 8

    I have no problem with incentives to head for certain careers (and disincentives for others), NZ needs skilled and qualified teachers, builders, IT workers, doctors, nurses. Applicants should also be assessed for suitability.

    Arts and humanities contribute greatly to society but (other than educators) only a few shining talents make a career of it, so to me they seem like an unaffordable luxury.

    • McFlock 8.1

      Trouble is, without the humanities it becomes far too easy for the wider picture to be lost and we end up wondering why we need so many teachers, doctors and so on.
            
      Yes I’m biased, but I really think that humanities are a bit like a car chassis – it isn’t obvious, and doesn’t really do anything, but you tend to miss it when it’s gone. All of a sudden and without warning, and at the most inopportune moment.
       

    • Populuxe1 8.2

      Bollocks. Artists, as a rule, are considerably more entrepreneurial than most MBAs. They have to be in order to survive. They frequently find multiple crossover applications for their skills. They are happy to take lower paid, part time work so that they can continue to work on their art. And no artist has ever been afraid of a blank piece of paper – unlike the so-called “business”-orientated, they actually generate ideas rather than exploit other people’s .

  9. Some of assumptions underlying this are astounding.
    It assumes that remuneration is the main factor for choosing a course, or a career.
    It assumes that averages are representative – they are not. A median, quartiles and sample size would be helpful.
    Annual income data assume full-time work – not all graduates can or do work full time.
    It will not include the graduates that head overseas as soon as they can to get away from the terrible salaries in NZ.
    This is a dumb idea, and a waste of money.

  10. Peter 10

    I not that the new IRD Commissioner has a Master of Arts in English Literature and Sociology. I wonder how she would fare under Joyce’s new order?

  11. tsmithfield 11

    Students invest a considerable amount in taking out a student loan. It is only fair that they be given some information on the likely return they will make on their investment. This doesn’t have to mean restrictions to courses or such. In fact, Joyce, on Newstalk ZB last night, ruled out that possibility.

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    4 days ago
  • That Word.
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    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    5 days ago
  • The Hoon around the week to March 15
    Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The five things that mattered in Aotearoa’s political economy that we wrote and spoke about via The Kākā and elsewhere for paying subscribers in the last week included:PM Christopher Luxon said the reversal of interest deductibility for landlords was done to help renters, who ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    5 days ago
  • Labour’s policy gap
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    PolitikBy Richard Harman
    5 days ago
  • Skeptical Science New Research for Week #11 2024
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  • Melissa remains mute on media matters but has something to say (at a sporting event) about economic ...
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    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    5 days ago
  • The return of Muldoon
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    5 days ago
  • Will the rental tax cut improve life for renters or landlords?
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    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    5 days ago
  • Geoffrey Miller: What Saudi Arabia’s rapid changes mean for New Zealand
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    5 days ago
  • Racism’s double standards
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    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    5 days ago
  • It’s not a tax break
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    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    5 days ago
  • The Plastic Pig Collective and Chris' Imaginary Friends.
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    5 days ago
  • Who is responsible for young offenders?
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    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    5 days ago
  • Gordon Campbell on National’s fantasy trip to La La Landlord Land
    How much political capital is Christopher Luxon willing to burn through in order to deliver his $2.9 billion gift to landlords? Evidently, Luxon is: (a) unable to cost the policy accurately. As Anna Burns-Francis pointed out to him on Breakfast TV, the original ”rock solid” $2.1 billion cost he was ...
    5 days ago
  • Bernard's Top 10 @ 10 'pick 'n' mix' for March 14
    TL;DR: My top 10 news and analysis links this morning include:Today’s must-read: Jonathon Porritt calling bullshit in his own blog post on mainstream climate science as ‘The New Denialism’.Local scoop: The Wellington City Council’s list of proposed changes to the IHP recommendations to be debated later today was leaked this ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    5 days ago
  • No, Prime Minister, rents don’t rise or fall with landlords’ costs
    TL;DR: Prime Minister Christopher Luxon said yesterday tenants should be grateful for the reinstatement of interest deductibility because landlords would pass on their lower tax costs in the form of lower rents. That would be true if landlords were regulated monopolies such as Transpower or Auckland Airport1, but they’re not, ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    5 days ago
  • Cartoons: ‘At least I didn’t make things awkward’
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  • Solving traffic congestion with Richard Prebble
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    5 days ago
  • I Think I'm Done Flying Boeing
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    6 days ago
  • Invoking Aristotle: Of Rings of Power, Stones, and Ships
    The first season of Rings of Power was not awful. It was thoroughly underwhelming, yes, and left a lingering sense of disappointment, but it was more expensive mediocrity than catastrophe. I wrote at length about the series as it came out (see the Review section of the blog, and go ...
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  • Van Velden brings free-market approach to changing labour laws – but her colleagues stick to distr...
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    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    6 days ago
  • Why Newshub failed
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    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    6 days ago
  • Māori Party on the warpath against landlords and seabed miners – let’s see if mystical creature...
    Bob Edlin writes  –  The Māori Party has been busy issuing a mix of warnings and threats as its expresses its opposition to interest deductibility for landlords and the plans of seabed miners. It remains to be seen whether they  follow the example of indigenous litigants in Australia, ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    6 days ago
  • There’s a name for this
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    6 days ago

  • Government moves to quickly ratify the NZ-EU FTA
    "The Government is moving quickly to realise an additional $46 million in tariff savings in the EU market this season for Kiwi exporters,” Minister for Trade and Agriculture, Todd McClay says. Parliament is set, this week, to complete the final legislative processes required to bring the New Zealand – European ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 hours ago
  • Positive progress for social worker workforce
    New Zealand’s social workers are qualified, experienced, and more representative of the communities they serve, Social Development and Employment Minister Louise Upston says. “I want to acknowledge and applaud New Zealand’s social workers for the hard work they do, providing invaluable support for our most vulnerable. “To coincide with World ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 hours ago
  • Minister confirms reduced RUC rate for PHEVs
    Cabinet has agreed to a reduced road user charge (RUC) rate for plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs), Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. Owners of PHEVs will be eligible for a reduced rate of $38 per 1,000km once all light electric vehicles (EVs) move into the RUC system from 1 April.  ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    9 hours ago
  • Trade access to overseas markets creates jobs
    Minister of Agriculture and Trade, Todd McClay, says that today’s opening of Riverland Foods manufacturing plant in Christchurch is a great example of how trade access to overseas markets creates jobs in New Zealand.  Speaking at the official opening of this state-of-the-art pet food factory the Minister noted that exports ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    10 hours ago
  • NZ and Chinese Foreign Ministers hold official talks
    Minister of Foreign Affairs Winston Peters met with Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi in Wellington today. “It was a pleasure to host Foreign Minister Wang Yi during his first official visit to New Zealand since 2017. Our discussions were wide-ranging and enabled engagement on many facets of New Zealand’s relationship with China, including trade, ...
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    23 hours ago
  • Kāinga Ora instructed to end Sustaining Tenancies
    Kāinga Ora – Homes & Communities has been instructed to end the Sustaining Tenancies Framework and take stronger measures against persistent antisocial behaviour by tenants, says Housing Minister Chris Bishop. “Earlier today Finance Minister Nicola Willis and I sent an interim Letter of Expectations to the Board of Kāinga Ora. ...
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    1 day ago
  • Speech to Auckland Business Chamber: Growth is the answer
    Tēna koutou katoa. Greetings everyone. Thank you to the Auckland Chamber of Commerce and the Honourable Simon Bridges for hosting this address today. I acknowledge the business leaders in this room, the leaders and governors, the employers, the entrepreneurs, the investors, and the wealth creators. The coalition Government shares your ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Singapore rounds out regional trip
    Minister Winston Peters completed the final leg of his visit to South and South East Asia in Singapore today, where he focused on enhancing one of New Zealand’s indispensable strategic partnerships.      “Singapore is our most important defence partner in South East Asia, our fourth-largest trading partner and a ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Minister van Velden represents New Zealand at International Democracy Summit
    Minister of Internal Affairs and Workplace Relations and Safety, Hon. Brooke van Velden, will travel to the Republic of Korea to represent New Zealand at the Third Summit for Democracy on 18 March. The summit, hosted by the Republic of Korea, was first convened by the United States in 2021, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Insurance Council of NZ Speech, 7 March 2024, Auckland
    ICNZ Speech 7 March 2024, Auckland  Acknowledgements and opening  Mōrena, ngā mihi nui. Ko Andrew Bayly aho, Nor Whanganui aho.  Good morning, it’s a privilege to be here to open the ICNZ annual conference, thank you to Mark for the Mihi Whakatau  My thanks to Tim Grafton for inviting me ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Five-year anniversary of Christchurch terror attacks
    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and Lead Coordination Minister Judith Collins have expressed their deepest sympathy on the five-year anniversary of the Christchurch terror attacks. “March 15, 2019, was a day when families, communities and the country came together both in sorrow and solidarity,” Mr Luxon says.  “Today we pay our respects to the 51 shuhada ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Speech for Financial Advice NZ Conference 5 March 2024
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Early visit to Indonesia strengthens ties
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters held discussions in Jakarta today about the future of relations between New Zealand and South East Asia’s most populous country.   “We are in Jakarta so early in our new government’s term to reflect the huge importance we place on our relationship with Indonesia and South ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • China Foreign Minister to visit
    Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Foreign Affairs Winston Peters has announced that the Foreign Minister of China, Wang Yi, will visit New Zealand next week.  “We look forward to re-engaging with Foreign Minister Wang Yi and discussing the full breadth of the bilateral relationship, which is one of New Zealand’s ...
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    5 days ago
  • Minister opens new Auckland Rail Operations Centre
    Transport Minister Simeon Brown has today opened the new Auckland Rail Operations Centre, which will bring together KiwiRail, Auckland Transport, and Auckland One Rail to improve service reliability for Aucklanders. “The recent train disruptions in Auckland have highlighted how important it is KiwiRail and Auckland’s rail agencies work together to ...
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    5 days ago
  • Celebrating 10 years of Crankworx Rotorua
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  • Government delivering on tax commitments
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    5 days ago
  • Significant Natural Areas requirement to be suspended
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    5 days ago
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    5 days ago
  • Government partnership to tackle $332m facial eczema problem
    The Government is helping farmers eradicate the significant impact of facial eczema (FE) in pastoral animals, Agriculture Minister Todd McClay announced.  “A $20 million partnership jointly funded by Beef + Lamb NZ, the Government, and the primary sector will save farmers an estimated NZD$332 million per year, and aims to ...
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    5 days ago
  • NZ, India chart path to enhanced relationship
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    6 days ago
  • Ruapehu Alpine Lifts bailout the last, say Ministers
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    6 days ago
  • Govt takes action to drive better cancer services
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Work begins on SH29 upgrades near Tauriko
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    6 days ago
  • Work begins on SH29 upgrades near Tauriko
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Fresh produce price drop welcome
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    6 days ago
  • Statement to the 68th United Nations Commission on the Status of Women
    Tēnā koutou katoa and greetings to you all.  Chair, I am honoured to address the sixty-eighth session of the Commission on the Status of Women. I acknowledge the many crises impacting the rights of women and girls. Heightened global tensions, war, climate related and humanitarian disasters, and price inflation all ...
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  • Speech to the 68th United Nations Commission on the Status of Women (CSW68)
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Government backs rural led catchment projects
    The coalition Government is supporting farmers to enhance land management practices by investing $3.3 million in locally led catchment groups, Agriculture Minister Todd McClay announced. “Farmers and growers deliver significant prosperity for New Zealand and it’s vital their ongoing efforts to improve land management practices and water quality are supported,” ...
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    6 days ago
  • Speech to Auckland Business Chamber
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    1 week ago
  • Commission’s advice on ETS settings tabled
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    1 week ago
  • Government lowering building costs
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    1 week ago
  • Trustee tax change welcomed
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    1 week ago
  • Minister’s Ramadan message
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    1 week ago
  • Minister appoints new NZTA Chair
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    1 week ago
  • Speech to Life Sciences Summit
    Good morning all, it is a pleasure to be here as Minister of Science, Innovation and Technology.  It is fantastic to see how connected and collaborative the life science and biotechnology industry is here in New Zealand. I would like to thank BioTechNZ and NZTech for the invitation to address ...
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    1 week ago
  • Progress continues apace on water storage
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    1 week ago
  • Government agrees to restore interest deductions
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    1 week ago
  • Minister to attend World Anti-Doping Agency Symposium
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago

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