We Must Resist China

Written By: - Date published: 11:57 am, February 11th, 2021 - 81 comments
Categories: China, human rights, International - Tags:

For the past four years, the region of Xinjiang in Northwest China has witnessed the largest forced incarceration of an ethno-religious minority anywhere in the world since the Second World War. Upwards of one million Uyghurs and other Turkic Muslims have been forced into internment camps for “re-education” and “thought transformation”, or into high security prisons, or forced labour.

This situation has come to the wider attention of the world when the world “genocide” – unqualified by the modified “cultural” – was used recently to describe it.

Even the Americans get how bad this is. On January 19th 2021, one day before leaving office, U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo declared that China’s actions against the Uyghur minority group constituted “genocide and crimes against humanity.” Antony Blinken, Pompeo’s successor, would later agree with this characterisation in his confirmation hearing. For more detail on the U.S. view, here’s the testimony to the U.S. Senate Foreign Relations Committee from back in 2018.

The notion that a genocide is underway in the twenty-first century seems outlandish from a country that produces every fridge you need down at Harvey Norman and everything from doormats to toothbrushes at The Warehouse. We may well resile from Air New Zealand servicing Saudi aeroplane engines, but our utter addiction to China’s cheap manufacturing also ties us to the largest-scale oppression of the 21st century.

In October 2020 39 countries at the United Nations criticized China for its human rights abuses against Uighur, and also its crackdown against Hong Kong.

The German Ambasador Christoph Heugsen said on behalf of 39 countries at the U.N. committee that deals with human rights abuses, “We call on China to respect human rights, particularly the rights of persons belonging to religious and ethnic minorities, especially in Xinjiang and Tibet.”

Heugsen urged China to allow U.N. human rights observers “immediate, meaningful and unfettered access” to Xinjiang. Among the 39 countries were most of the EU member states, as well as Canada, Haiti, Honduras, Australia, and ourselves.

If you’re unfamiliar with the human rights abuses going on there, this backgrounder will serve as a starter.

Of course straight after that statement, China’s Ambassador to the United Nations Zhang Jun, hit back targeting the United States. Without addressing the Uighur issue, he claimed China’s human rights achievements are “widely recognised” and he urged Washington to “take a good look in the mirror” and eliminate racial discrimination in its own society before attacking other countries.” Clearly the way the United States ‘takes a look in the mirror’ is to start with (a) vote out their leader and his supporting party, and (b) twice hold him to close scrutiny through impeachment – accountability that can never happen to the autocratic Xi Jinping of course. There has been more ‘looking in the mirror’ to follow of course even after Facebook has reformed, FoxNews has cleared house, and Twitter turned against the President.

It is patently clear that many of the world’s countries with the most corrupt and anti-democratic practices are the ones over which China has the most influence. China’s resolute silence over the coup in Myanmar is deafening when placed against most other countries including our own who over this week have withdrawn all contact with them. Then there’s North Korea.

And Laos.

And Cambodia.

And Pakistan.

And Nepal. Look up the Human Rights Watch ratings for any of those countries, or their corruption index. Sometimes they resist China, as in Mongolia, but not for long. China’s toxic authoritarian influence is spreading.

It’s not as if international outrage hasn’t been raised. It’s that the Chinese government doesn’t care, refutes any imposition of any kind of judgement about how it treats its citizens, and actively undermines the very idea of human rights as an international norm. China is getting better at undermining global human rights.

This 2019 analysis about ‘human rights with Chinese characteristics’ – an active corrosion of human rights as a framework for moral judgement and sanction of countries by China – has also been followed up by UN Human Rights Watch and comes to similar conclusions.

The Australian Institute of Foreign Affairs has followed up on this pattern mid last year as well.

Now, of course we could wait for more neutral observers to be let into Xinjiang, and I expect you would have a longer wait than the World Health Organisation inspectors who tried to get into Wuhan to determine the origin and Chinese government response to Covid19. China’s government practise is to actively stonewall until evidence is obliterated or at least too cold to prosecute.

Whatever the merits of the term genocide, the evidence of the atrocities that China has committed against Uyghurs is undeniable.

The chill for New Zealand is this: by depicting itself as the primary leader of developing countries around the world, China showcases its political system of state-centric anti-democratic authoritarianism as a model for other countries to emulate, actively degrade international norms of basic freedoms, and suppress facts leading to criticism let alone dissent. That’s the first and most obvious reason we need to work to regain unity among the Pacific Islands Forum.

Meanwhile, New Zealand should continue to protest against China’s massive oppression of Uighur peoples. It’s what a country with a conscience ought to do.

81 comments on “We Must Resist China ”

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  1. bwaghorn 1
    11 February 2021 at 12:33 pm

    ”" Clearly the way the United States ‘takes a look in the mirror’ is to start with (a) vote out their leader and his supporting party, and (b) twice hold him to close scrutiny through impeachment – accountability that can never happen to the autocratic Xi Jinping of course. There has been more ‘looking in the mirror’ ""

    So Biden I'll be moving swiftly to release the

    many many African Americans and Hispanics in there hails then .?

    • Ad 1.1
      11 February 2021 at 12:42 pm

      You're likely to be hung for the double murder of syntax and grammar.

      • bwaghorn 1.1.1
        11 February 2021 at 3:28 pm

        The double syntax is cause that fancy thing you edemacated fallas do to show someone else's words is beyond this old cledus.

        And as for that little fucker that does my autocorrect,just wait till I catchup with it.

  2. Stuart Munro 2
    11 February 2021 at 12:48 pm

    Dead right – and in the long term, it may slowly shift the Chinese populace into a less supine relationship with fallible authoritarian leaders.

  3. Andre 3
    11 February 2021 at 1:06 pm

    But, but, moonofalabama says there's some minor inconsistencies in some of the stories coming out as reported by the bought and controlled western media. So it must all be a beat-up by the western imperialistic hegemony to manufacture consent for … mumble something mumble.

    /

    • Peter chch 3.1
      11 February 2021 at 1:19 pm

      Yeah, thats clearly because some people consider the lives of Asians or Africans do not matter (presumably a race based view). Far better to twist everything into an anti US perspective and ignore the very real atrocities being committed in China or Equitorial Africa, or the millions held in slavery by black Africans in north west Africa.

    • Lettuce 3.2
      11 February 2021 at 8:13 pm

      Moonofalabama often comes across like a left-wing mirror site to QAnon. I wouldn't place a great deal of stock in what either of them claim to be true frankly.

    • Incognito 3.3
      12 February 2021 at 8:53 am

      Framing it as polar opposites or an absolute binary leaves no room for nuance and agreement and denies the huge grey area in the middle. It serves only one purpose and I won’t be a willing servant to that unlike so many unthinking souls.

  4. Peter chch 4
    11 February 2021 at 1:14 pm

    Not just Xinjiang. Xizhang and Nei Mongol are faring pretty badly too. China is an imperial power, an empire. Most of its Semi-autonomous Regions are just colonies, and increasingly repressed ones at that.

    The parallels between Germany in the 1930s under the Nazis and China under Xi are chilling. Xinjiang concentration camps, enforced sterilazation, mass restriction of movement and so on. 2022 will be interesting, as that is when Xi would normally be replaced, but of course he has crowned himself Emperor for life, even issued his own little red book.

    Yet so many on TS twist eveything into somehow about the US, (like bwaghorn above). Maybe at least some on TS really think Asian lives don't matter.

    • Enough is Enough 4.1
      11 February 2021 at 1:46 pm

      I think the past 3 months has shown us that, despite all of its flaws (of which there are many), the US democratic system prevailed, over the dictatorial ambitions of the sitting President.

      There is nothing in the Chinese system which protects the will of the people in the same way.

      • RedLogix 4.1.1
        11 February 2021 at 1:52 pm

        There is nothing in the Chinese system which protects the will of the people in the same way.

        And the fatal flaw of all unaccountable regimes is that they never owe anyone a truth they do not want to reveal. Eventually the anomalies accumulate until no-one knows what to believe or not.

      • Peter chch 4.1.2
        11 February 2021 at 2:00 pm

        Agree. One of the most dangerous things in 2021 is that Xi has repeatedly stated that Taiwan will be absorbed into the empire by force if necessary by the end of 2021.

        Xi has his credibility on the line leading up to the 2022 summit, plus 2021 is the 100 year anniversary of the Chinese Communist Party.

        Like Hitler, he would not think twice about destroying the future of China for his own ego. Without any doubt whatsoever, China will engineer an incident in 2021 to make itself look the victim (as the Nazis did with Poland), and a limited war in the South China Sea will occur.

        • RedLogix 4.1.2.1
          11 February 2021 at 2:09 pm

          Yes I've often wondered exactly how Taiwan might play out. Rationally it makes no sense at all for the CCP to risk the potential disruption such an invasion would necessarily entail.

          If nothing else the marine insurers would immediately declare the entire region a warzone and every freighter would be forced to leave, or put at risk their insurance. This factor alone would have an immediate and substantial impact on the Chinese economy.

          Strategically the CCP might hope to limit such disruption by getting it done and dusted within a few weeks – but that's a serious gamble. Taiwan have had decades to prepare for this exact eventuality.

          • Peter chch 4.1.2.1.1
            11 February 2021 at 2:18 pm

            Except of course it is not about economics. Its all about being Emperor and diverting the peoples attention away from their lack of freedoms.

            Thats why in 2020 China invaded India (LOC), why it invaded Australia (cyber attack), and why it has claimed territory from Russia to Northern India to the South China Sea to Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan.

            • RedLogix 4.1.2.1.1.1
              11 February 2021 at 10:30 pm

              The last thing the Trump administration did on the way out was normalise relationships between US and Taiwanese officials and so far TeamBiden has not reversed this. This is viewed by the CCP as a move only marginally short of full diplomatic recognition.

              Biden has indicated that the tough trade tariffs that Trump initiated against China are likely to continue. His new Trade Counsel Katherine Tai has strong family connections with Taiwan.

              The US Navy is conducting Freedom of Navigation exercises in the South China Sea just this week.

              During Biden's term with the Obama administration his experience with the Chinese reneging on agreements appears to have set him on a more hawkish view toward trade with China than even Trump. Early days to tell how all this is going to work out, but don't expect the new administration to be suddenly undo the entire Trump policy momentum.

              The Sino-US relationship is going to get a lot worse before it ever (if ever) gets better.

  5. Sanctuary 5
    11 February 2021 at 1:52 pm

    The Chinese are actively promoting their nightmare form of surveillance Orwellian authoritarianism as an attractive alternative to democracy. It certainly sounds good to tinpot dictators everywhere.

    China's "alternative" form of government constitutes the greatest threat to democracy since the rise of Fascism in the 1930s. The CCP is the enemy of free people everywhere. Unless we are prepared to surrender ourselves to a police state controlled by a Quisling government of collaborators (with perhaps good job opportunities for loyal runners of interference like Mike Smith, whose recent post on the Uyghurs is a shameful stain and a dark day for this blogsite – I and others were disgusted by it, it should be immediately deleted and the author censured IMHO), we'd better start getting ready to fight the butchers of Beijing.

    • RedLogix 5.1
      11 February 2021 at 2:02 pm

      As a resident author here I do agree with you – but I've learned over the years that internal fights between us are very bruising and largely counterproductive.

      Mike's views are well within the bounds of what is allowable free speech and I think it's better we have this debate in the open.

      • Andrew Miller 5.1.1
        11 February 2021 at 8:52 pm

        His views shouldn’t be removed and yes it’s within the bounds of free speech, but let’s be clear it needs to be made clear just how repugnant and not to mention intellectually vacuous that piece was.
        It’s to The Standards credit they’ve followed it up with something that makes clear just how shallow Mike’s argument

        • Incognito 5.1.1.1
          12 February 2021 at 9:02 am

          Mike Smith and Advantage are completely independent Authors here. There is no Editorial Board or some kind of ‘oversight from above’ here on The Standard. This platform is as free and unregulated as it can be whilst encouraging and stimulating robust debate. As such, it makes no sense to talk about “The Standards credit”. I wish commenters here would get at least that part right.

    • Peter chch 5.2
      11 February 2021 at 2:05 pm

      And it just gets worse:

      https://amp.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/3096090/what-chinas-social-credit-system-and-why-it-controversial

      This is the Chinese Social Credit System, where the slightest wrong thing (critical of the government etc) will earn negative points. Too many lost points, and no health care or even access to travel internally.

      Great way to muzzle the Chinese diaspora.

    • Incognito 5.3
      11 February 2021 at 4:24 pm

      WTF did you not understand about my recent warning to you about slandering that Author again? https://thestandard.org.nz/uyghur-allegation-escalation/#comment-1777875. Are you really a dimwitted fool? Do you actually know who owns this site?

      • Sanctuary 5.3.1
        11 February 2021 at 7:10 pm

        "..Do you actually know who owns this site..?"

        I don't give a shit who owns this site, according to your "About" section it is a collective, so I guess collectivism is an expedient that goes the same way as the human rights of the Uyghurs if it suits you.

        I am prepared to make a stand on this. the piece was disgusting. Lord Haw Haw levels of blogging agit-prop. Questioning the story of weaponised mass rape and genocide because to admit otherwise might upset your world view is beneath contempt. This site is meant to be dedicated to socialism and principles of liberal democracy and freedom in the substantive sense – freedom from fear, hunger, and want and with human dignity valued highly. The article in question crossed not just that line, but one basic human decency.

        • Peter chch 5.3.1.1
          11 February 2021 at 7:48 pm

          Yep Sanctuary, it was an attempt to re victimise rape victims.

        • Lettuce 5.3.1.2
          11 February 2021 at 8:34 pm

          @Sanctuary – Thanks for saying exactly I thought and felt when I read that piece in such a succinct and erudite way.

          I take comfort in knowing there are still people out there with a conscience who are prepared to take a stand so that others might live with dignity and compassion, and without oppression and fear.

        • DukeEll 5.3.1.3
          11 February 2021 at 8:43 pm

          Bang on Sanctuary. Toeing the corporate line doesn’t fly.

          louis Theroux made a great point on a podcast today. If you have 12 bad cops and 130 good cops, and the good cops don’t tolerate the behaviour of the bad, you have 12 bad cops. But when 130 cops allow the bad behaviour of the 12, you have 142 bad cops. None of them anonymous

        • Incognito 5.3.1.4
          11 February 2021 at 11:05 pm

          Yes, I get that you violently object to the piece and want to make a stand. You do that by addressing the piece, not by making slanderous insinuations about the Author and whether he might be rewarded or paid, now or in future, for writing here. Nor do you demand it be deleted straightaway. You don’t get to tell Authors what to write here nor do you get to tell us how to run this site, which are both banneable offences.

          You have been warned twice for the same offence and if there’s a third time I’ll give you a ban.

          Lastly, you’d better not make any assumptions on where I stand regarding Mike’s piece unless you can back those 100% with links.

          Finally, before you do or say something stupid here, talk with your mates!

  6. RedLogix 6
    11 February 2021 at 1:58 pm

    An important post Ad. I contemplated writing something similar several times – but you've done it way better than I could. Much of the information I've already heard in various forms directly from personal Chinese contacts, who typically paint an even more dramatic picture than you have.

    I would have however added a crucial point. I like the Chinese people a lot and we must be scrupulous in making the distinction between the vast mass of Chinese whose lives are quite remote from the machinations of the CCP – and the regime that Xi Xinping is personally responsible for having turned in such a dark direction this past decade.

    • Ad 6.1
      11 February 2021 at 2:03 pm

      With Auckland's big Lantern Festival up this weekend for Chinese New Year, it's just another reminder that the Chinese community is an indispensable part of our society and our economy.

      • Peter chch 6.1.1
        11 February 2021 at 2:13 pm

        Absolutely, but many Chinese see NZ as a colony, just another extension of the Chinese Empire. Many have little respect for our culture or even our laws.

        As a simple example, most Chinese businesses (selling to their Chinese customers) use Weixin pay. The money is transferred from one Chinese account held in China to another Chinese account held in China. The money never hits NZ and remains untaxed.

        I have huge history, both professionally, socially and from living and working in Jinan for a number of years, and despite what it may seem, I have huge respect for Chinese people. But thousands of years of a self contained economy and 72 years of communist brainwashing has left a lot of damage.

        • Sanctuary 6.1.1.1
          11 February 2021 at 3:11 pm

          Much of the Chinese package tourism barely touched NZ's economy. Arrive on a Chinese airline, use a Chinese owned bus tour company, eat at Chinese owned restaurants and shop at Chinese owned souvenir stores – sure, some ancillary support functions diverted a little cash to NZ, but I wonder how much of the notional tourism spend from China ever touched NZ.

    • Tony Veitch (not etc.) 6.2
      11 February 2021 at 7:18 pm

      The Han Chinese have been fed a lot of crap about Uyghurs.

      I worked in an Urumqi school for 3 years and on the first day I was told by the Han head teacher not to ever mention the three 'Ts' – Taiwan, Tibet and Tianamen Square, and not to leave anything around because all Uyghurs are thieves.

      Not too long after one of the teachers (an American) had a break-in in his flat at night, He disturbed the thief and captured him – a Han Chinese.

      The next day he loudly told anyone who would listen (especially the Han management) the racial identity of his burglar.

      But such ingrained attitudes go deep – I often had Han students say quite disparaging things about the Uyghurs.

      China is indulging in a 'creeping genocide' in Xinjiang and I for one would like to see our government call them out for it.

  7. Castro 7
    11 February 2021 at 2:23 pm

    You may want to have a conversation with your fellow contributor, "Mike Smith": https://thestandard.org.nz/uyghur-allegation-escalation/

  8. Byd0nz 8
    11 February 2021 at 3:52 pm

    Bullshit 1. Advantage 0.

  9. Ad 9
    11 February 2021 at 4:02 pm

    And in the context of being able to hold international human rights violators to account, they've just charged a guard from the Nazi Saschenhausen camp with wartime atrocities, even though he's now 100.

    https://edition.cnn.com/2021/02/10/europe/nazi-camp-guard-grm-intl-scli/index.html

    The country undertaking the prosecution is Germany, which is a modern, successful open social democracy.

  10. Adrian Thornton 10
    11 February 2021 at 4:08 pm

    Holy shit you lot are lot dogs on a leash, ready to be told who to bark and yap at as soon as your masters tell you too…where was all this high minded so called 'conscience' when we all knew full well during the eighties and nineties of Uyghur oppression and outrageous labour exploitation in China? ans while we watched as its gutted so much of the very life blood out of our country in terms of industry, production and small bussiness?…and now all a sudden when the Chinese become a serious threat to western corporate and silicon valley hegemony, we are offended and outraged about it…what a joke, just wind you lot up and let you go, you are so fucking easy to manipulate it shocking to watch…(apart from Redlogix who has always banged on about the Chinese).

    • Peter chch 10.1
      11 February 2021 at 4:21 pm

      Two reasons:

      1. It was hoped during the 90s that the rapid rise of Chinas economy and its engagement with the outside world would progressively lead to increasing social freedoms.

      2. Under Deng Xiaoping, despite the massacres at Tiananmen Square and elsewhere, real social and political change (at local levels at least) was becoming evident.

      Honestly, the China I first saw in 1994, despite all the things you quite correctly mention, was light years away from the freedoms that most Chinese have today. Change takes time, and if it had not been for the arrival of Xi, things may have continued to ever so slowly change.

    • RedLogix 10.2
      11 February 2021 at 4:51 pm

      Heh … you prompted me to do a search and way back in 2008 I was already 'banging on'. And this before Xi Xinping:

      China will not become a clone of the USA, or another Eurozone. The CCP is a gerontocracy that plans long games over generations, and now has the people, the cash, the resources, the technology and above all the patience to simply subsume to entire world into it’s orbit.

      It's also interesting to see what I got totally wrong:

      "Within a generation China will not be so much a superpower, but a colossus of 2 billion people, …"

      Turns out that after 30 years of the 'one child policy' the Chinese are running out of 30 yr olds. Funny how maths works like that. They're now one of the fastest aging societies.

      Looking back the whole thread was pretty good for it's time. Steve Pierson was a great author.

      • Adrian Thornton 10.2.1
        12 February 2021 at 12:44 pm

        @RedLogix, I have no problem at all with people whom have different views from my own on whatever subject or issue (such as yourself) when I know that those differing points of view are founded on that persons personal beliefs/positions and especially if it is an historical position of that person, what I cannot stand is people whose positions and views on these subjects or issues seem to ebb and flow and reflect almost an exact parallel of the obvious media/state narrative of the moment, time and time and time again…sometimes it seems that those people have never had an original thought in their life, and I am not the smartest guy around, so that says to me that these people must be extremely lazy thinkers…or something.

  11. Gabby 11
    11 February 2021 at 4:17 pm

    Oh well, better late than never.

  12. Byd0nz 12
    11 February 2021 at 6:05 pm

    There is no country in the world that has a completely clean record on human rights, even today. Which means your a hypocrite if you say there is.

  13. In Vino 13
    11 February 2021 at 11:57 pm

    I am a little saddened by the one-sided vitriol I see in this thread. China is a different society from ours – if you think that our democracy is universal and everybody should behave like us, you are naive. Russia is different too, and most societies revert to type more quickly than they change. Including us, with our silly demand that all other countries respect our high standards which happen to lead them into our capitalist system of profiteering, which leads them into subservience.

    Russia has always been strong when ruled ruthlessly with a rod of iron. Stalin and maybe Putin are examples following those of the greatest and most despotic Tsars of old.

    China is returning to a powerful status, and its rulers will not be much different to the old, despotic emperors.

    May I annoy some of you with a few facts? Our side is not so clever. If you watch the US Dept of Information series 'Why We Fight' episode put out on WW2 about the war in China, you will learn that Tibet was clearly recognised by the USA as the 5th and largest province of China. Because the USA was backing Chiang Kai Scheck (spellings vary now) of the Kuomintang party – the latest in the series of corrupt warlord but right-wing groups the USA blessed. But – when the Communists (quelle horreure!) actually booted the Kuomintang out of China – a huge epiphany! The USA suddenly realised that Tibet was a proud, independent country.. We have been fed that different line of propaganda since.

    Worse – the Kuomintang withdrew to Taiwan, where the USA stopped the Communists from following them. Chiang Kai Scheck proclaimed himself the true leader of China, and announced his intentions of re-invading the China mainland. USA backed him, and installed Taiwan as the Official China in the United Nations. On the Security Council, too! The real China was excluded from the UNO for about 30 years, before this nonsense was ended. But during this time, the pretence was that China was virtually a province of Taiwan.. And that Red China was a demon that had no right to exist.

    But now, Taiwan is suddenly a poor little threatened, free, independent nation being threatened by those nasty, expansionist Chinese. Give me a break – how did you expect another rising Chinese dynasty to behave?

    And please, give us another break – stop all these stupid invocations about Nazi Germany and Hitler. I well remember hearing all that bullshit before, about Ho Chi Minh and the North Vietnamese – evil communists who were going to destroy us all with the domino theory. Well, Ho Chi Minh won, and none of the terrible consequences ever occurred.

    Sorry, but our side are not much better than the Chinese, and all this alarmist propaganda leaves me wanting something of better quality. And yes, I know that the Chinese oppress minorities. They are far from the first to do so.

  14. Drowsy M. Kram 14
    12 February 2021 at 2:08 am

    The CCP has (naturally) tried to conceal/minimise deliberate large-scale human rights abuses/violations (arguably including genocide) in China. Critics of the CCP say that its official aim to eliminate "the three evils of separatism, terrorism and religious extremism" is used as a pretext for human rights abuses.

    Universal Declaration of Human Rights
    Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people…

    Hope trusted NGOs continue to raise awareness about human rights abuses/violations in all countries without fear or favour.

    https://www.trtworld.com/asia/hundreds-of-ngos-urge-un-to-investigate-china-s-human-rights-abuses-39608

    For Uyghurs: Nowhere Feels Safe

    https://www.hrw.org/tag/uyghurs

    Uyghur Human Rights Project

    World Uyghur Congress

    Global Centre for the Responsibility to Protect

    https://enduyghurforcedlabour.org/

    https://www.ihrc.org.uk/tag/uyghur/

  15. Tiger Mountain 15
    12 February 2021 at 6:47 am

    One small product tagline–Apple’s–conveys a lot–“Designed in California/Cupertino/USA” adorns the packaging of iPad/iPhone/Mac. Much Apple hardware is of course actually manufactured in China.

    That fact signifies globalised production, and the reach of US corporates, all instigated over time by US Imperialism and US Finance Capital. Mountains of consumer crap are Chinese produced for export, NZ is China dependent in various ways economically. So it is rather amusing to watch the acrobatics and moral outrage above.

    If there is a “side” to be taken with imperialist powers of all stripes it is that of the international working class.

  16. Bruce 16
    12 February 2021 at 7:08 am

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/1334225320047371/permalink/2232614080208486/

    From facebòok I know, I was thinking about where the water cannons come from but I see this today

  17. KJT 17
    12 February 2021 at 9:09 am

    This "USA Good, China bad" nonsense is getting tiresome.

    Neither are morally good. Both are Governed by self perpetuating ruling classes.

    Both suppress dissent and exposure of their moral bankruptcy. The USA more subtly than China or Russia. The treatment of journalists who exposed US atrocities show, this graphically. Torture and illegal imprisonment characterise both regimes. Guantanamo is still in operation.

    The USA, and Russia, like Israel, Saudi Arabia and many others, have a worse record of bombing and blockading civilian populations than China.

    Ethnically cleansing Uyghurs, is morally no different from the US support for similar actions against Palastinians and Yemeni's. But, they are only brown "rag heads" so who cares. The sudden concern for the Uyghurs, after the deafening silence over atrocities committed by our "friends" stinks of hypocrisy.

    China's attempts to annex Taiwan, pales besides the US attempting to blockade and starve civilian populations in Venezuala and Iran into changing their Government. Not to mention forcing regime change, often removing elected Governments, in over 50 countries since WW2. Bolivia being the most recent. I wonder what is going to happen, after their people voted to give the finger to the US instigated, coup. I wait for the claims in US media that the new Government is a "Dictatorship".

    Lastly. I remember full well how the USA, lied to us to get us to support their bloody war in support of their puppet Dictatorship in Vietnam. Which started because the Vietnamese simply wanted independence from the repressive French colonial Government.

    • Drowsy M. Kram 17.1
      12 February 2021 at 12:28 pm

      "This "USA Good, China bad" nonsense is getting tiresome."

      I wonder, is "they do it too" reasoning employed in Uyghur 'reeducation camps'?

      By all means call out human rights abuses/violations, especially of ethnic/racial/religious/sexual orientation minorities, in all countries without fear or favour, but how does highlighting the evils and hypocrisy of the US, or the UK, help the Uyghers.

      • Brigid 17.1.1
        12 February 2021 at 1:54 pm

        "By all means call out human rights abuses/violations, …… but how does highlighting the evils and hypocrisy of the US, or the UK, help the Uyghers."

        It's all humans who KJT is speaking for, not exclusively those who the msm are saying have been abused by a country you are being told to hate.

        Do you seriously believe that the NZ government whining to China about its perceived human rights infringements is going to help the Uyghers?

        When all who believe that China is at fault stop buying Chinese goods I will believe you are sincere in wanting to help the Uyghers.

        Assuming of course that they have requested your help.

        • Drowsy M. Kram 17.1.1.1
          12 February 2021 at 2:30 pm

          It's all humans who KJT is speaking for, not exclusively those who the msm are saying have been abused by a country you are being told to hate.

          @14

          Universal Declaration of Human Rights
          Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people…

          Brigid, I don't hate China – it's one of many countries facing much more serious domestic and international challenges than NZ.

          I am sincere in my belief that some (and possibly many) Uyghers are the target of a deliberate state-sponsored 'reeducation' programme that is infringing (to put it mildly) on their human rights, and my belief that they need/deserve help/support stems from that.

          If you choose to believe that my belief is insincere then I'm fine with that.

          Edit: P.S. The Uyghers have not personally requested my help.

  18. Mark 18
    12 February 2021 at 11:01 am

    "the largest forced incarceration of an ethno-religious minority anywhere in the world since the Second World War. "

    Even if the claims of the US are true, in respect of Xinjiang, this statement is patently false. In the 1950's the British confined 1.5 million Kenyans in brutal detention camps leading to the deaths of at least 100,000

    https://www.amazon.com/Britains-Gulag-Brutal-Empire-Kenya/dp/1844135489

  19. Mark 19
    12 February 2021 at 11:30 am

    "Even the Americans get how bad this is. On January 19th 2021, one day before leaving office, U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo declared that China’s actions against the Uyghur minority group constituted “genocide and crimes against humanity."

    What do you mean "even the Americans"

    In fact it is only the Americans, leading the rest of the english speaking world, who are giving any credence to this fake news, this of course to stymie the rise of China, the first non-white power in centuries with any hope of disrupting the Western hegemonic order.

    "This situation has come to the wider attention of the world when the world “genocide” – unqualified by the modified “cultural” – was used recently to describe it."

    'Genocide'? LOL. If China really was practicing genocide, or genocidal, they could have easily disposed of a few million Uighurs (or Tibetans) in the 70 years of the PRC. There are over a billion Han Chinese after all. There is no evidence of anything approaching genocide, either physical or cultural. What is happening are simply emergency measures, by and large humanely implemented as far as possible, to combat Islamic extremism, with around 10,000 to 20,000 ISIS and other terrorist fighters likely in the province of Xinjiang after returning from Middle East conflicts.
    https://jamestown.org/program/returning-uighur-fighters-and-chinas-national-security-dilemma/

  20. Mark 20
    12 February 2021 at 11:37 am

    "It’s not as if international outrage hasn’t been raised. "

    As if the hypocritical bleatings and crocodile tears of a small coterie of Western nations represents "international outrage"?

    Where else is this so called 'international outrage' emanating from? Answer. Nowhere.

    • RedLogix 20.1
      13 February 2021 at 12:37 am

      Give it away. No-one believes a single word you say.

      You're obviously a wumao who only ever comments here on one topic only.

      As for the CCP, as I said above, they owe no-one the truth on anything. Absent independent verification I simply do no believe one single syllable of anything that emerges from CCP controlled state run media.

      Sure the record of the media in the rest of the world isn't exactly exemplary, but I can aggregate enough trusted sources to gain some sense of what the truth likely is. But when the source is controlled by a one party state machine that does not permit reliable outside verification – and certainly does not believe in the freedom of expression – then the only sane conclusion is to disbelieve everything they say by default.

      Or in a word – bullshit.

      • Mark 20.1.1
        13 February 2021 at 5:43 am

        "but I can aggregate enough trusted sources to gain some sense of what the truth likely is."

        LOL! 'enough trusted sources' that derive their bs from one or two sources.

        refer facts posted below dude. Don't blow a gasket.

        • RedLogix 20.1.1.1
          13 February 2021 at 9:37 am

          Anyone can type pretty much anything they like on the Western internet (unlike the tightly controlled one inside China).

          You abuse our relative freedoms to pursue a totalitarian agenda. Go away.

          • Mark 20.1.1.1.1
            13 February 2021 at 11:22 am

            "You abuse our relative freedoms to pursue a totalitarian agenda.

            Oh….so having a point of view different to yours is 'abuse' of our 'relative freedoms'…..sounds a tad totalitarian of you eh?

            • RedLogix 20.1.1.1.1.1
              13 February 2021 at 11:38 am

              It's cynical game you're playing here.

              Can I go onto the internal CCP controlled Chinese internet and present any 'point of view that I like'?

              Of course not – because the system you defend actually is totalitarian.

          • francesca 20.1.1.1.2
            13 February 2021 at 1:23 pm

            "Anyone can type pretty much anything they like on the Western internet"

            as long as they don't mind being deplatformed, losing their job and ability to make a living,having their reputations slaughtered.

            Being guilty of wrong thought and not showing sufficient hate to the evil villain du jour will have its consequences

            • RedLogix 20.1.1.1.2.1
              13 February 2021 at 1:26 pm

              Fair point – which is why this site always allowed psuedo-anonymous user handles.

      • Pierre 20.1.2
        16 February 2021 at 12:39 am

        On the other hand though, should we not also remain critical of claims made by people speaking from government offices in Washington DC?

        Of course I'm sceptical of this happy coalition of US neoconservatives, Turkish nationalists, right-wing fundamentalist Christians like Adrian Zenz, Al-Qaeda fanboys of the Turkistan Islamic Party, and the poor ghouls at the World League for Freedom and Democracy/Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation who are obviously still upset that their global crusade against judeo-bolshevism was abruptly stopped in 1945.

        Putting aside the good vs. evil rhetoric around human rights and allegations of genocide, it's worth being upfront about where this fits in a political context.

        • RedLogix 20.1.2.1
          16 February 2021 at 9:06 am

          Fair enough – my general position here is that there is more than enough evidence for the claims to be investigated by a UN tribunal or similar. And not just a brief stage managed 4 week visit that's controlled at every step.

          And keep in mind these are very, very serious allegations. Playing the 'moral equivalences' game here doesn't remotely stack up in my mind.

          • Mark 20.1.2.1.1
            16 February 2021 at 12:18 pm

            "very, very serious allegations"

            The allegations themselves are serious but are bullshit.

            Even the BBC condemns these reports of systematic rape….lol

            BBC headlines:"Uighur camps: US, UK governments condemn reports of systematic rape"

            Uighur camps: US, UK governments condemn reports of systematic rape – BBC News

            • Drowsy M. Kram 20.1.2.1.1.1
              16 February 2021 at 5:26 pm

              Mark, a comment in which the term "systematic rape" is followed immediately by "lol" does not reflect well on the commenter, imho.

              Are you suggesting that the "US, UK governments condemn reports", or that governments are actually condemning the CCP-sanctioned systematic rape alleged (with supporting evidence) in those reports?

              From the start of the document in your link.

              The US government has said it is "deeply disturbed" by a BBC report detailing allegations of systematic rape of Uighur women in Chinese camps.

              "These atrocities shock the conscience and must be met with serious consequences," a spokesperson said.

              A UK government minister, Nigel Adams, said in parliament on Thursday that the report showed "clearly evil acts".

              According to estimates, more than a million Uighurs and other minorities have been detained in camps in China.

              An investigation published by the BBC on Wednesday contained first-hand testimony of systematic rape, sexual abuse and torture of women detainees by police and guards.

              Jacinda Ardern's 'grave concern' after reports of systematic rape in China's Uighur camps

              Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern has condemned reports of systematic rape in China's secretive Uighur camps, describing it as "an issue of grave concern" for New Zealand.

              New Zealand joins the US, UK and Australia in speaking out against the camps after a BBC investigation detailed allegations of systematic rape of Uighur women detained in China's internment camps in the Xinjiang region.

              It's estimated more than a million Uighurs – a mostly Muslim Turkic minority group that number about 11 million in Xinjiang – have been detained in the camps, which have been widely condemned as akin to prisons.

  21. Obtrectator 21
    12 February 2021 at 5:06 pm

    A few questions that keep popping through my mind about China.

    (1) What is Xi Jin-Ping's succession plan? Does he have one?

    (2) Now that the one-child generation is grown (or growing up) how will they manage to support all those aged relatives who will be depending on them?

    (3) What's going to be done about the gross gender imbalance that's come into being ever since the sex of unborn foetuses became easily verifiable, resulting in appalling levels of femicide? (This last also applies to places like India, and other societies that over-prioritise the begetting of male children.)

    Monstering the Uighurs hardly seems likely to solve any of those.

  22. barry 22
    12 February 2021 at 5:57 pm

    From the Chinese point of view, there is nothing wrong with Uyghurs, so long as they can behave like other Chinese. Han Chinese are very tolerant of minorities having their own culture and using it for tourism.

    The problem for the Chinese government is that there has been a long-standing separatist insurgency and acts of terrorism by people from Xinjiang. Since the Taleban, Al Qaeda and Isis have been recruiting throughout the muslim world the amount of radicalisation in Xinjiang has increased dramatically over the last few decades, and the separatism has acquired islamist overtones that look very sinister to Beijing.

    For Han Chinese in Beijing (like in USA) terrorists look like archetypal muslims (long beards, head coverings) and so they start to feel that anyone who looks like an archetypal muslim is a terrorist. the Chinese Communist party think they can control everything and they have started a programme of de-islamisation. They are tolerant of muslims, but no longer tolerant of open displays of religious fervour.

    So the re-education camps are a pathological approach to solving a real problem. Individual rights have never been strong in China, and Chinese governments of all stripes have always been ready to sacrifice people for the greater good of society. Also China does not believe in half-measures.

    I don't believe a lot of the more extreme accusations, but it is clear that people are being brainwashed to tone down their religious beliefs and conform to "chinese" ideals.

    I have no doubt that there are excesses. The heads of these institutions have a lot of autonomy, and very little oversight. there are also strong temptations to sell captive labour for personal gain. the same thing has happened everywhere where the same conditions exist. see e.g. https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2012/may/15/prison-slave-labor-replaces-freeworld-workers-in-down-economy/

    So yes, we should look to get China to stop these repressive practices. However the tone of articles like this, with its exaggerations and strident accusations is not helpful. The Chinese see the false accusations and ignore the true violations. they can say look you are being unfair, you are lying, you are ignoring your own rights abuses, and not move to fix the problems.

    If you want to see change then show that you are not just anti-China by moderating your tone. Check your facts. Look into the background of the people you quote (e.g. Pompeo). Engage with the people you want to change.

  23. Mark 23
    13 February 2021 at 5:41 am

    *39 countries signed on to the UN statement against China's policies in Xinjiang

    *45 countries signed supporting China's policies in Xinjiang

    *There are 195 countries in the world. 111 countries don't have a dog in this fight.

    *Only ONE (barely) Muslim majority country Bosnia and Herzegovina signed against China.

    *Around 15 Muslim majority countries SUPPORT China

    "International outrage???" Yeah right!….only if one thinks white peoples votes are worth more than those of non-white people

    https://thediplomat.com/2020/10/2020-edition-which-countries-are-for-or-against-chinas-xinjiang-policies/

  24. KJT 24
    13 February 2021 at 7:56 am

    Mark. China cannot escape from the fact that what their Government is doing, in Xinjaing, Hongkong and indeed Taiwan, where the ex Nationalist Chinese exported Dictatorship has now morphed into a Democracy who do not want rule by the CCP, is wrong!

    China, like the USA, has skant regard for human rights, when it suits them.

  25. KJT 25
    14 February 2021 at 4:14 pm

    Mark. Many sovereign countries, listen to their own people, and the people of other countries, on human rights and the right to peoples making decisions on their own futures.

    China, and I agree, the USA, do not!

  26. KJT 26
    14 February 2021 at 4:30 pm

    Mark. Should I stop talking about Australia's treatment of refugees, to give just one example, because it is "internal" to Australia, and "none of our business"? Or the USA's imprisonment of Black people.

    Why should China be able to be repressive without being called out. More than a few Chinese people are opposed to their Governments actions. Including, at present the people of Hong Kong.

  27. hugh steadman 27
    19 February 2021 at 11:20 am

    Holders of negative views on China need to take this into consideration: Google 'China Harvard satisfaction survey.'

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