Well done Murray McCully

Written By: - Date published: 7:48 pm, December 24th, 2016 - 286 comments
Categories: national, national/act government, the praiseworthy and the pitiful - Tags: , , , ,

In this year of topsy turvey politics and weird and strange events this is probably one that no one would have seen happening, the Standard praising Murray McCully.

But he deserves it.  He had New Zealand co sponsor a resolution condemning Israel’s continued land grab of Palestinian land and after the United States abstained the resolution passed.

Israel has responded by withdrawing its ambassador from New Zealand.  So long and see you later.

From the Herald:

The Israeli Government has recalled its ambassador from New Zealand after the UN Security Council passed a resolution condemning Israel’s continued settlements.

New Zealand co-sponsored the resolution, which said the settlements violate international law and undermine a two-state solution in Israel’s conflict with Palestine.

The resolution was passed 14-0 at the last council meeting of the year, and New Zealand’s last meeting in its two-year term as an elected member of the Security Council.

Loud applause was heard in the packed chamber when the US ambassador, Samantha Power, abstained.

All remaining members of the security council, including Egypt, which had drafted the resolution and had been briefly persuaded by Israel to postpone the vote, voted in support.

Looks like Obama is enjoying his last few days of office doing what is right rather than what the Senate and House of Representatives will put up with.  And it appears from his twitter feed that Trump is fuming.

Egypt was pressured by US President-elect Donald Trump and Israel to delay the resolution. It eventually dropped it but the co-sponsors ploughed ahead with it.

Donald Trump, who takes over as US President on January 20, tweeted yesterday that the outgoing Obama Administration should veto the resolution – but it abstained, allowing it to pass.

From Trump’s Facebook page:

The resolution being considered at the United Nations Security Council regarding Israel should be vetoed.

As the United States has long maintained, peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians will only come through direct negotiations between the parties, and not through the imposition of terms by the United Nations.

This puts Israel in a very poor negotiating position and is extremely unfair to all Israelis.

The parties have been negotiating for decades.  And Israel is engaged in a war of attrition on Palestine.  Allowing this to reach its logical conclusion will only mean the complete obliteration of the Palestinian state.

The local right are also not amused.  Cameron Slater has described McCully (Whaleoil link) as “siding with terrorists and terror organisations to try and shaft the only truly democratic nation in the Middle East on behalf of his Muslim paymasters”.  Clearly annexation of land belonging to a foreign nation is acceptable as long as they are muslim.

And David Farrar has in his passive aggressive way complained about how the United Nations “has a terrible bias against Israel and a history of passing resolutions that only call for action by Israel, and nothing from the Palestinians”.  I am not aware of any Palestinian action to resettle its citizens on land belonging to Israel.  Perhaps someone could point out examples to me if this has actually occurred.

But Murray McCully take a bow.  These really are strange times.

286 comments on “Well done Murray McCully”

  1. Sacha 1

    Farrar and Slater reveal their strange prejudices on this issue. The United Nations has over many decades passed resolutions against Israel stealing Palestinian land but their govt believes they are above such rulings. Our local right-wing sewer-bloggers have no pause about whose ass to kiss.

  2. Carolyn_nth 2

    All credit to McCully (his team and our government).

    In my experience, right-leaning, or Nat voters I know tend to favour Obama (and the Clintons) over Trump and the Bushes.

    I saw an Israeli guy fuming about the resolution on Al Jazeera this morning. He continued not to address the criticisms of the unfairness of the settlements, and harsh treatment of Palestinians. He kept diverting to the inconsistencies of US government (or maybe he said UN) sanctions and actions – ie not condemning Syria, Turkey, etc.

    The US is inconsistent with the countries’ actions it supports and opposes, but that’s no defense for the Israeli settlements.

  3. Tautoko Mangō Mata 3

    I find Felix Geiringer’s tweet sums up my thoughts on this issue.
    Felix Geiringer ‏@BarristerNZ 6h6 hours ago
    “Well done to MFAT’s UN Team @NZUN & our Govt. This is the sort of principled stance I wish NZ were consistently taking on the world stage.”

  4. Draco T Bastard 4

    IMO, it’s getting to the point where the entire world understands that its Israel that is the aggressor and not Palestine. Confronted with this fact the US could no longer protect them with their veto as they have done for the last few decades.

    • Sacha 4.1

      I suspect a lot of it is positioning between the outgoing Obama adminstration and incoming Chump empire.

      • Macro 4.1.1

        There is that – but it is also the case that at last Obama has a “free” hand to do executively what before he was hidebound by a Republican dominated Congress to avoid. It is just a little, but I think we are seeing what the US might have been like, had the Senate and House been Democratic.

        • Andre 4.1.1.1

          Up until Nov 8, Obama also had to consider electability issues. This action will irritate a decent chunk of normally solid Democrats. For all the good electoral expediency actually ended up failing to do for the Dems.

          • Macro 4.1.1.1.1

            Yes – wrt the abstaining on Israel – that is true, there are many democrats who are pro-Israeli settlements.
            I’ve also been thinking of his actions wrt to the Arctic Oil etc.

        • alwyn 4.1.1.2

          You do realise, I hope, that the Democrats controlled the House for the first two years of Obama’s Presidency and they controlled the Senate for the first six years of his time in the job?
          Why did he not do anything during the period when he did have control in both chambers, or attempt to do something in the time his party controlled one chamber.
          Republican controlled Congress my foot. It has only been that in the last two years.

          • Draco T Bastard 4.1.1.2.1

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidents_of_the_United_States_and_control_of_Congress

            And the US system isn’t like the UK system – there’s no whips to ensure that all of them vote the same way. Each US politician is an independent.

          • Macro 4.1.1.2.2

            I give you this as just one example of just how hamstrung Obama has been by a recalicitrant Congress.

            • alwyn 4.1.1.2.2.1

              I don’t have the slightest problem with anyone claiming that Obama has had trouble with the Congress. However you went much further than that with your comment that I have responded to.

              You now talk about “how hamstrung Obama has been by a recalicitrant Congress.” In your original remark you blamed his problems on the fact that he was “hidebound by a Republican dominated Congress”.
              It is all the Republicans fault, was your premise.

              Many Presidents have been in office when the opposition party controlled the Congress. Eisenhower, Johnson, and Reagan all proved that it was possible to work with Congress and get bills passed. They had a very simple explanation. It was amazing what you could accomplish if you didn’t care who got the credit. Kennedy on the other hand refused to let anyone else get credit for anything and, like Obama, he got totally bogged down at the end of his time in office. The Civil Rights laws were never going to be passed before Johnson became President.

              Obama never seemed to understand that. He also didn’t try and get along with the members of Congress. He could have done so many simple things. Why didn’t he play golf with some of them? He played only with his own friends or members of his inner circle. Even Bill Clinton never understood that foolishness. A Congressman would die for the chance to be photographed with the President on the first tee at Burning Tree.

              Of course Congress has been difficult. They only got more so when Obama got more and more withdrawn from the simple business of politics.

              I would also suggest, as an aside , that it is likely to be Democratic, rather than Republican politicians who follow a strongly pro-Israel line. Jewish voters, and political donors, in the US are far more likely I would think to support the Democratic rather than the Republican party.

  5. I was gobsmacked when I read we’d co-sponsored the resolution and prevented Israel from arm-twisting Egypt into dropping it. This government did the right thing? Murray fucking McCully did the right thing? It’s one very fucking unusual Christmas.

    • miravox 5.1

      +1
      Finally after all these years, we experience NZ taking a principled stance on international relations. I’ve always expected our government to do this, even when it avoids dealing with national injustices.

      The right thing. an example of this has been a long time coming, and now I find I’m grateful to McCully. Weird.

  6. ian 6

    Wonder if this had anything to do with Key’s shock resignation earlier in the month. It wouldn’t have done his chances in the NY finance/money industry any good if he was the prime minister of a country that had sponsored a successful rebuke of Israel’s illegal actions in the State of Palestine.

  7. HAHAHAHAHAHAAAA !!!!

    Cameron Slater and David Farrar – our local resident Zionists in drag .

    Both being wined and dined in Israel courtesy of the LIKUD party – a fanatical , aggressive , far right wing neo liberal party – Slater and Farrar , invited into the Knesset , put up in hotels , expenses paid while their job was to write glowing reports for Israels military campaigns , and govt justification for their policy’s ,… and then to spread their pro Zionistic shit here in our own country via the National party and its American puppet John Philip Key .

    Well , notice now Keys gone along with his ”GET SOME GUTS ” crap – how fast the situations changed. No more surreptitious neo con undertones for Slater/ Farrar in that quarter , at least .

    Laughing my bloody head off !!!

    Suck long and hard on this and have a listen , Boys, – then weep.

  8. swordfish 8

    “And David Farrar has in his passive aggressive way complained about how the United Nations “has a terrible bias against Israel and a history of passing resolutions that only call for action by Israel”

    Yeah, in fact, far from singling Israel out for criticism, the international community has repeatedly turned a blind eye to its breaches of international law. The historical record suggests Israel’s rights have actually been privileged – rather than prejudiced. Not the victim so much as the beneficiary of a global double standard.

    And, of course, Israel’s brutal Occupation and on-going de facto annexation of the territory designated for a Palestinian Homeland under International Law hits the 50 year mark next year. Something for Farrar and Slater to celebrate I guess.

  9. lprent 9

    I am shocked in a pleasant way by this action. It is exactly the correct things to do.

    Israel has to do one of two things. Either abide by the two state solution with all of the implications, or stop the genocidal apartheid of their current ghetto solutions for their Palestinian citizens.

    Farrar and Slater are just hypocrites.

    • Draco T Bastard 9.1

      Israel has to do one of two things. Either abide by the two state solution with all of the implications, or stop the genocidal apartheid of their current ghetto solutions for their Palestinian citizens.

      They’ll keep doing what they are now and nothing will stop them. But, IMO, when they ignore this the rest of the world (excepting some politicians and RWNJs) will start to take action against them and the politicians who continue to support them.

  10. Marcus Morris 10

    Like many of the above, I never thought I would raise a glass to Murray McCully. I cheered when I heard the result of the vote. I did not think it would go through.
    Am half way through reading a book by British Journalist John McCarthy called “You can’t hide the Sun”. It is an appalling account of the treatment of the Arab population within Israel since 1948. McCarthy was held hostage in Lebanon for five years from 1986. Since 1948 Israel has been carrying out a policy of ethnic cleansing and rewriting the history and the geography of the area of land once known as Palestine. However, will the resolution bring any real hope for the beleaguered Palestinian people both inside and outside of Israel. I somehow doubt it.

  11. Draco T Bastard 11

    Surprise, surprise:

    Israel has suspended its multimillion dollar contribution to a number of United Nations bodies and is reevaluating its relationship with the organization, after the UN Security Council passed a resolution on Israeli settlement construction.
    “I instructed the Foreign Ministry to complete within a month a re-evaluation of all our contacts with the United Nations, including the Israeli funding of UN institutions and the presence of UN representatives in Israel,” Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu said on Saturday while addressing the nation.

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu © Gali TibbonTel Aviv rejects ‘shameful & absurd anti-Israel’ UN resolution
    “I have already instructed to stop about 30 million shekels ($7.8 million) in funding to five UN institutions, five bodies, that are especially hostile to Israel … and there is more to come,” he added without offering any further details.

    We’re really upset that you find our actions despicable and so we’re going to punish you for it.

    Yeah, the Israelis going to continue their pogrom against the Palestinians.

    This could all have been predicted in the 1940s before the UN went and gave Palestine to the Israelis against the founding charter of the UN.

  12. Jenny 12

    Doing what is principled, and not what is popular, may become a habit. Let’s hope so.

    Next up on the agenda in the dying days of the Obama administration is the pardoning of Chelsea manning.

    If ever there was a case that the US presidential pardon tradition should extend to, this must be it.

    https://www.democracynow.org/2016/12/21/her_life_depends_on_obama_taking

  13. Jenny 13

    Israeli leaders have stated that they intend to defy the UN over this resolution for a halt in Israel’s illegal settlements on Palestinian territory.

    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/netanyahu-vows-to-defy-united-nations-over-israel-settlements-resolution/article/2610323

    “Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Israel will not abide by Friday’s United Nations resolution condemning construction of Israeli settlements.”

    As we all know, and has been said on this thread in various ways, it is all very well making resolutions, but if they are not followed up they are worthless.

    In response to the publicly stated intention of Israel to defy the UN, the UN must act to suspend Israel from all UN bodies and institutions where Israel currently has a presence.

    http://www.palestinechronicle.com/the-un-must-not-let-resolution-2334-be-squandered/

    “First and foremost, there must be a serious review of Israel’s membership of the world body. Ever since it was carved out of the land of Palestine, Israel’s leaders have projected their country as something exceptional and thus entitled to special treatment. Israel is indeed unique; it is the only state in the world that owes its very existence to a UN resolution – 181 (II). Its membership was, however, conditional, and remains so.”

    “Upon admission to the world body, the new entity gave a solemn undertaking to respect the General Assembly Partition Resolution (of Palestine) and the status of Jerusalem contained therein. This included the requirement to allow Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and land. Israel has repudiated these conditions. The UN is, therefore, well within its rights to suspend Israel from participating in all of its bodies and institutions, as it did with the South African apartheid regime in 1974 and the former Yugoslavia in 1992.”

    In the face of this open defiance, anything less than the measured and moderate actions outlined above, will bring the institution of the United Nations into disrepute.

    Surely open defiance of the statutes of the UN is at odds with membership of that body.

    • Wensleydale 13.1

      You’d like to think so, wouldn’t you. Sadly, I doubt any action of significance will be taken against them, despite their defiance. Israel is a special snowflake among nations, and any condemnation of their actions, no matter how appalling or abhorrent, means you’re a horrible anti-semite who wishes nothing more than to continue from where the Third Reich left off. Appparently.

    • Draco T Bastard 13.2

      In response to the publicly stated intention of Israel to defy the UN, the UN must act to suspend Israel from all UN bodies and institutions where Israel currently has a presence.

      The UN needs to do more than that. A full trade embargo including banning funds transferring into Israel. Which I’m pretty sure that the US would ignore but that would be fine as then we’d have proof that the US doesn’t want either peace for the region and works to destabilise it.

      • Richard McGrath 13.2.1

        I would like to see Israel leave the UN.

        • Draco T Bastard 13.2.1.1

          Why?
          What do you expect this to achieve?

          • Richard McGrath 13.2.1.1.1

            Starve the beast to death. I hope Trump evicts the UN out of their current site and tells them to go play on someone else’s doorstep.

        • Wellfedweta 13.2.1.2

          The US are talking of withdrawing all financial support. I’m hoping this will destroy the UN once and for all. It is a corrupt gravy train with no moral compass.

          • Draco T Bastard 13.2.1.2.1

            The corruption starts in the US.

          • Marcus Morris 13.2.1.2.2

            What a sad comment. It mightn’t be perfect but it is an important forum and has achieved some great things, especially with its humitarian contributions over the decades. What would you replace it with?

            • wellfedweta 13.2.1.2.2.1

              An entirely knew organisation with a very limited brief. It is corrupt (http://nypost.com/2015/10/11/the-long-sordid-tale-of-corruption-un-leadership/), impotent and, well, basically useless.

              • Marcus Morris

                Possibly in matters of international conflict there is truth in what you say – the dreadful massacre of Muslim men and boys by “Christian” Serbs in Bosnia while UN troops looked on because of the terms of engagement is a case in point but in areas of humanitarian aid in any number of places – thank goodness for the UN.. You haven’t suggested an alternative. (Part of its problem over the years has been the “veto” system.

                • wellfedweta

                  Agreed. The UN have also been impotent in deaths and persecution of millions in Soviet Russia and Communist China. They have been impotent in the persecution and deaths of christians in Indonesia, India, across the middle east. They are, frankly, useless.

  14. HDCAFriendlyTroll 14

    Meanwhile back in the real world.

    Terrorist attacks by Palestinians against Israel:

    http://mfa.gov.il/MFA/ForeignPolicy/Terrorism/Palestinian/Pages/Wave-of-terror-October-2015.aspx

    October 10

    Jerusalem (Sabbath morning): Arab (16) stabbed two Jewish men in their 60s near Damascus Gate, leaving them moderately and lightly wounded, respectively. The terrorist then attacked Border Police officers, who shot and killed him.
    Jerusalem (near Damascus Gate): Palestinian (19, from Shuafat) stabbed two police officers. Nearby police shot and killed him, and accidently wounded a third officer. Officers in serious-to-moderate condition.

    October 11

    Maaleh Adumim-Jerusalem highway: Police officer lightly injured when he pulled over a driver acting suspiciously, and the (female) driver set off an explosive device. Gas canisters were later found in the vehicle. The terrorist was seriously wounded.

    October 9
    Jerusalem (Shmuel HaNavi St.): Jewish boy (16) was beaten and stabbed and lightly injured. Attacker (18, from Hebron in West Bank) was later apprehended by police.

    Kiryat Arba: Terrorist stabbed a police officer (47) and tried to grab his gun. Other officers shot him.

    October 8
    Tel Aviv: Female soldier and three others stabbed. Terrorist was shot and killed.
    Jerusalem: A yeshiva student (25) was seriously injured and another man lightly injured in stabbing attack near the light rail. Terrorist (age 19) arrested.

    Kiryat Arba (Jewish town near Hebron, south of Jerusalem): Man seriously wounded in stabbing attack. Victim evacuated to Jerusalem hospital. Terrorist escaped.
    Afula (town in Galilee): A soldier was wounded in stabbing attack. The terrorist was apprehended soon after.​
    October 7
    Petach Tikva: Knife attack at shopping mall wounded one man. The knife broke, preventing further victims. Bystanders apprehended the terrorist.
    Jerusalem: A Palestinian woman (18) stabbed a 36-year-old Jewish man at Lion’s Gate of the Old City. The victim, moderately wounded, shot and wounded the terrorist.
    Kiryat Gat (southeast of Tel Aviv): A terrorist stabbed an IDF soldier and snatched his gun, then ran into a nearby apartment, where a woman was just returning home. She fought with him and managed to flee. The terrorist was killed by police.

    October 4
    Jerusalem: Moshe Malka (15) was stabbed and wounded on his way to prayers at the Western Wall. Terrorist was shot dead by security forces.
    October 3
    Jerusalem: Two killed in stabbing attack near Lion’s Gate. Aharon Banita-Bennet (22) was stabbed to death on the way to the Western Wall in the Old City on Saturday evening with his wife and two young children. His wife and two-year-old son were wounded. Rabbi Nehemia Lavi (father of seven), who came to the aid of the Banita-Bennett family, was attacked and stabbed to death. Police shot and killed the attacker.

    October 1
    Near Nablus in Samaria: Rabbi Eitam Henkin (31) and wife Naama (30) murdered in a drive-by shooting while traveling with their four young children (aged 9, 7, 4, and 9 months). Security forces arrested members of Hamas cell responsible.

    September 22

    Hebron: Attempted stabbing attack of IDF soldier in Hebron. Assailant apprehended on site.

    September 21

    Nablus: IDF soldier injured by firebomb near Joseph’s Tomb.

    September 17

    Jerusalem: Israeli civilian injured by rock throwing.

    September 13

    Jerusalem: Alexander Levlovich, 64, was killed while on his way home from a Rosh Hashana dinner when he lost control of his vehicle after it was struck by rocks. Two passengers were lightly injured.

    Obviously this shows the desperation of the poor (only the world’s biggest recipients of aid) Palestinians. Hell, some of them are so poor they have to put the baby in the same box the C4 came in.

    I’m sure in the same situation most Standardistas would do the same thing. Well done Murray!

    • Jenny 14.1

      A tragic list of killings, the vast majority of the deaths being Palestinian.

      Most killed for allegedly attacking heavily armed Israelies, with wait for it…., knives.

      Not mentioned in this long list of one sided tragedy and death, is the “alarming increase in the number of Palestinian structures demolished by Israel in 2016”, in the West Bank under direct Israeli control.

      No mention of the 296 Palestinian children killed by Israeli bombs and rockets in Gaza.

      One particularly glaring omission from this list of killings is the murder of an 18 month old Palestinian child killed in an arson attack on two Palestinian homes in the West Bank by Israeli settlers.

      http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/07/palestinian-baby-burned-death-extremist-attack-150731035331224.html

      http://www.awdnews.com/political/israeli-settlers-burn-palestinian-baby-to-death-in-arson-attack

      http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-33729281

      Lying by ommission is still lying.

      The world community, (including the New Zealand government and people), and apparently even the Americans, are heartily sick of it.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 14.2

      Therefore illegal settlements are cool, no?

      What’s the ‘principle’ behind your false equivalence argument? “He did it too” (right wing hypocrites love that one), or ‘two wrongs make a right’?

      Or is it simply that as an amygdala-based life-form you don’t have any principles at all?

    • Meanwhile back in the real world.

      Er, the settlements are being constructed in the real world. If they were being constructed in some fantasy world, no-one would give a shit.

      You seem very confused, or maybe just unable to determine whether your comments are relevant to the post. I shall assist: no crimes by Palestinians are relevant to the illegality of Israeli settlement construction in the occupied territories. It doesn’t matter how many you list, nor how bad they are, they remain irrelevant to the subject at hand.

      • Richard McGrath 14.3.1

        Having condemned Israel, how about we start dismantling the settlements built by the colonisers in Aotearoa/New Zealand?

        • Psycho Milt 14.3.1.1

          It’s an interesting comparison. Suppose the invasion of the Waikato had happened a few decades ago and British settlers were right now building farms and towns on the land they’d taken from the defeated Maori; what do you think the UN would have to say about that?

          • JOHN IRVING 14.3.1.1.1

            The Israelis claim to be the indigenous peoples retaking land from the Jonny come latelys

        • Macro 14.3.1.2

          Yes a very pertinent question Richard.
          One of the reasons why it is taking so long to resolve outstanding treaty claims don’t you think?
          Mind you.. The confiscation of Maori land by an imperialist Govt continues to this very day!
          Not one more acre”

    • Jenny 14.4

      HDCAFriendlyTroll @14 above; mentions the names and ages of some of the Israeli victims of the violent conflicts he has listed, but none of the names of the Palestinian victims, consciously or unconsciously de-humanising the Palestinians. This self addmitted troll, consciously and deliberately omitted all the violent conflicts that don’t fit with the narrative of the Israelis as the victim.

      Because he never once mentioned the names of any of the Palestinian victims of these violent conflicts, and ommitted all those conflicts that didn’t suit his racist narrative.

      To give them back their humanity, here are the names and ages of all the children killed in Gaza by the Israelis;

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthority/10984259/Revealed-the-Palestinian-children-killed-by-Israeli-forces.html

      • gsays 14.4.1

        Hi jenny, they were all named terrorist. Sarc .

        The other distressing aspect of the crimes was so many of the palestinians ended up dead. Often unarmed.

      • Wellfedweta 14.4.2

        Jenny, these deaths are on the hands of Palestinians who deliberately place children in harms way.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/10987095/Gaza-conflict-Hamas-chooses-to-let-children-die-for-its-own-crazy-ends.html

        • Jenny 14.4.2.1

          Wellfed, your link to a justification of the bombardment and siege of Gaza, would have done the beseigers of the Warsaw Ghetto proud.

          • Richard McGrath 14.4.2.1.1

            Jenny the Poles in the Warsaw ghetto would not have used children as human shields.

            • swordfish 14.4.2.1.1.1

              As detailed reports by leading International Human Rights Organisations attest – nor did the people of Gaza.. Human Rights Groups do however provide evidence that:

              (1) Israel deliberately targets Palestinian civilians
              and
              (2) regularly uses Palestinian children as human shields when its forces invade Gaza. (and, indeed, in Lebanon 2006)

              In relation to Operation Protective Edge (2014) See also

              Jeremy Bowen, BBC Middle East editor: “I saw no evidence during my week in Gaza of Israel’s accusation that Hamas uses Palestinians as human shields.”

              The Guardian: “In the past week, the Guardian has seen large numbers of people fleeing different neighbourhoods.. and no evidence that Hamas had compelled them to stay.”

              The Independent: “Some Gazans have admitted that they were afraid of criticizing Hamas, but none have said they had been forced by the organisation to stay in places of danger and become unwilling human-shields.”

              Reuters, 2013: “A United Nations human rights body accused Israeli forces on Thursday of mistreating Palestinian children, including by torturing those in custody and using others as human shields.”

              Need to stop regurgitating these banal Israeli soundbytes, Richard. Otherwise you’ll end up like Wellfedtroller. And let’s face it, neither of us want that, do we ?

          • wellfedweta 14.4.2.1.2

            Jenny Israel withdrew from the Gaza in 2005. And then the Palestinians started the rockets. I have almost zero sympathy for them.

        • Morrissey 14.4.2.2

          You truly are an ignoramus.

          Note to Moderators:

          Are fools like Wellfedweta, HDCAFriendlyTroll and Richard McGrath allowed to write ANYTHING on this forum? I was (rightly) castigated this morning for a nasty little joke directed against the idiot son of a former prime minister. It concerns me to see vicious liars like these three posting without any disapproving editorial comments to warn readers of just how dodgy they are.

          • lprent 14.4.2.2.1

            We deal with what we see that violates the policies, which we feel that is just boring, or looks like it disrupts the “robust debate” that the comments and posts that the site was setup to elicit.

            So yes we allow people to express their ideas. We also don’t stop others from rebutting. After all why should the moderators do all of the editorial work?

            We tend to focus on behaviour rather than what people say. We seldom protect people in public life for things that they do.

            But we tend to draw a line on people who aren’t in public life and therefore properly part of the public debate.

            Gossip really isn’t “public life”. Outside of journos with column inches and airtime to fill, who really gives a pig arse about people famous for just being “famous”.

          • wellfedweta 14.4.2.2.2

            So you don’t like a counter opinion, and seek to have it suppressed. I could, for example, write a note that accuses you of ‘vicious anti-semitism’, of seeking to instigate a second holocaust, or perhaps just of sheer ignorance. But that would be a totalitarian approach. So debate the history.

    • swordfish 14.5

      “Meanwhile back in the real world”

      Why on earth would a morally-bankrupt run-of-the-mill Hasbara* shill like your good self even remotely have any interest in the real world ?

      * Hasbara (Black propaganda on behalf of the Israeli state)

      If we were to pull you – kicking and screaming – out of your self-imposed little Israeli black ops fantasyland, you’d be forced to open your eyes and acknowledge …

      – Israel’s brutal 50 – that’s right, 50 !!! – year Occupation and on-going de facto annexation of the territory designated for a Palestinian Homeland under International Law.

      – the 1200 Palestinian civilians / 350 children massacred by Israeli military in Operation Cast Lead 2008-09 (6,300 homes destroyed, 600,000 tons of rubble left behind)

      – the 1,600 Palestinian civilians / 550 children massacred by Israeli military in Operation Protective Edge 2014 (18,000 homes destroyed, 2.5 million tons of rubble left behind)

      – the thousands of Palestinian civilians massacred by the Israeli military in its numerous other “Operations” over the last 15 years

      – Palestinian men, women and children killed and maimed on a daily basis by both Israeli military and Settlers since the Occupation began in 1967, murders that have greatly escalated over recent years, VASTLY outnumbering Israeli deaths and going almost entirely unpunished.

      – the illegal, immoral, inhuman blockade of Gaza, which began in late 2007 – a humanitarian disaster deliberately planned by Israel – severely condemned over the years by all major human rights groups and leading international figures (including six Nobel peace prize winners) like the late Nelson Mandela, Archbishop Desmond Tutu, former Irish President and UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Mary Robinson, Jimmy Carter, former UN secretary general Kofi Annan, Burmese leader Aung San Suu Kyi, Norway’s first female Prime Minister Gro Brundtland …

      And that’s leaving out the systematic residential and resource apartheid practiced by Israel as part of its methodical ethnic cleansing in the Occupied Territories, the day-in / day-out humiliation by the IDF, the mass incarceration of Palestinian men, women and children plucked off the streets by Israeli military, the systematic use of torture against these thousands of illegally detained Palestinian prisoners …….

      But forget all that … you never know, there might just be one or two vaguely interested but not very well informed people – maybe very occasional readers – viewing the thread and if you’re really lucky you might just be able to pull the wool over their eyes. Keep up the good work. Israel needs as many useful idiots like you as it can get.

      • Richard McGrath 14.5.1

        Didn’t the Israeli occupation start after a failed invasion of Israel by its Arab neighbours, which aimed to drive the people of Israel into the sea?

        • swordfish 14.5.1.1

          No it didn’t, seeing you ask.

          You really need to do better than casually relying on long-demolished Israeli soundbytes if you want to be taken seriously, Richard.

          Putting aside the little fact that … er, you know … Israel did actually launch the 1967 War with a first strike … have a bit of an old gander at the following …

          Palestine

          and …

          Palestine

          • Wellfedweta 14.5.1.1.1

            Using comments on a blog as support for your opinion is probably why you have no idea of what actually happened. Read some reputable sources, and you might learn something.

            • swordfish 14.5.1.1.1.1

              “Using comments on a blog as support for your opinion is probably why you have no idea of what actually happened. Read some reputable sources”

              Ha ! … absolutely priceless !!!

              Now, precisely Whose comments do you think they were, Sport ?

              Hint: The name “swordfish” appears immediately above them.

              In other words, (and I realise this may prove a little too complex for you to understand, but bear with me), these are my comments based on very extensive reading over the last 20 years.

              In stark contrast to your good self. You and Richard really need to try and suppress your obviously innate instinct to mindlessly regurgitate a stale pastiche of long-demolished official Israeli soundbytes.

              You’re like those horrendous fucking apologists for South Africa during the Apartheid years.

            • Marcus Morris 14.5.1.1.1.2

              WFW

              One of my oldest and staunchest friends follows your narrative. I refute it utterly By mutual consent we no longer discuss the issue. His “feeds”come entirely from Israel and he invariably falls back on the line “it is biblical”. He accepts the line that there never was a Palestinian state and of course he is correct but the geographical area we know as Palestine goes back at least two millenium. He and other zionist apologists are fond of quoting Samuel Clemens, who wrote in a travelogue that the land was virtually uninhabited. Perhaps he was crossing the Negev Desert.

              When I tell him that Muslims and Jews lived in peaceful co-existence in the same land for centuries he is unaware of this. When I tell him that the Jews who were expelled by the so-called Christian rulers of Spain after 1492 when the Moors were finally driven from that country, found refuge and succour in Muslim societies, it comes as a surprise.

              As for the present situation and its history you might like to read “Blood Brothers” the book by three-time Nobel Peace Prize nominee, Elias Chacour recently retired after serving since 2006 as the Archbishop of the Melkite Catholic Church for Akko, Haifa, Nazareth, and all Galilee. I would think that his narrative would be pretty reliable.

              Then there is the book I quoted in an earlier post on the subject, “You can’t hide the sun” by John McCarthy.

              Another authoritative journalist is Robert Fisk who discusses the issue at length in “The Great War For Civilisation” -but I expect you will dismiss him as a left wing journo as my friend does.

              El Jazeera has produced a four part documentary entitled Al Nakba which can be viewed on You Tube. It gives a detailed history of the situation going back as far as the incident when Napoleon, needing funds for his wars, offered to give Palestine to the the Jews in return for financial support.

              The Balfour declaration of which so much is made contained this very specific proviso:

              it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.

              The original UN proposal called for an equal partition between Arab and Jew and the British should have remained in Palestine until it had been established, but they had no stomach for prolongued strife, especially so soon after the ending of World War 2 and the activities of Israeli terrorists wouldn’t have helped. The title “Perfidious Albion” is not out of place in this instance.

              Finally I wish to make it very clear that I am in no way anti Semitic. I am hugely grateful for the wonderful achievements that so many Jewish people have made over the centuries in all fields of human endeavour and that have enhanced the life I live today. I am acutely aware of the appalling sufferings and persecutions of these people over the centuries, almost entirely at the hands of Christians. But I find abhorrent the treatment by the current Israeli regime with respect to the Arab people living within Israel itself, and in the plight of those trapped within what is left of Palestine and the refugee camps in Lebanon. I take comfort that there are many Jewish groups both inside and outside Israel that share my views.

          • Paul 14.5.1.1.2

            I recommend we ignore wellfedweta . He is clearly trolling.

        • Draco T Bastard 14.5.1.2

          The Zionists started the invasion of Palestine back in the 19th century. They got backing for the annexation of Palestine for Jews from the UK and US in the beginning and middle of the 20th century. They carried out massive terrorist campaigns during that period. Then, after the UN gave then Palestine they started a purge of Palestinians that hasn’t stopped since.

          Israel is a terrorist nation. It started with blood and continues in the same way.

          • Wellfedweta 14.5.1.2.1

            Palestine is the historical homeland of the Jewish people. Palestine was a territroy, a geographical area, not a nation state. You really need to do some homework.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 14.5.1.2.1.1

              Israel was neither a territory nor a nation state. You really need to realise that non amygdala-based lifeforms aren’t susceptible to your double-talk.

              • Wellfedweta

                Yes it was. There was a nation state of Israel in antiquity. In the early 20th century. Israel was promised a nation state. That was delivered by the allied powers, and that has never been accepted by the Arab inhabitants of ‘Palestine’. It’s a bit like the bleeding hearts who won’t accept the democratic process in the US. They need to get a life.

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  Have your amygdala checked: it’s getting in the way of you having a fucking clue what I’m talking about, and feeding you flaccid talking points instead.

                  • Wellfedweta

                    Off your mess again bloke? Take a few days off.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      *meds

                      No. I’m pointing out that “your” “justifications” are unoriginal plagiarised double talk; rank hypocrisy. Gobshite.

                      That your purported truths apply equally to both sides.

                      That your amygdala is the only organ you obey: your status here is that of a megaphone, a tool. Nothing more.

                  • Richard McGrath

                    Play the ball, not the man.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  In the early 20th century. Israel was promised a nation state.

                  So, at that point, they didn’t have a nation state. That would be because they lost it more than 2000 years ago.

                  BTW, Britain also promised the Palestinians a nation state that would be recognised if they helped with the war. The Palestinians thus helped with the war and then Britain and the US gave it to the Zionists instead.

                  • Wellfedweta

                    The difference is that Israel HAVE had a nation in ‘Palestine’ previously. The ‘Palestinian people don’t exist, as a nation or a people group. There are Arabs of Palestine and Jews of Palestine.

                • Marcus Morris

                  You are a troll aren’t you WFW. Yes Palestine was a territory not a state but for centuries it had been administered as an entity within the Ottoman Empire. It had its own Governor in that context.

                  Like so much of the carve up the Middle East which followed WW I, I “boggle” at the arrogance of the “super powers” of the time, viz Britain and France as they created states (Iraq) and drew up boundaries to suit their own convenience and interests. And we are reaping the whirlwind of those decisions.
                  Greed, Empire and gun boat diplomacy was the order of the day. The centre of “Empire” has shifted but the rest remains the same.

                  By the way, I presume that “Democracy” and “Majority” don’t necessarily equate in your world.

                  • wellfedweta

                    “You are a troll aren’t you WFW.”
                    No, but if it makes you fell better that you can’t refute my comments…

                    “Yes Palestine was a territory not a state but for centuries it had been administered as an entity within the Ottoman Empire. It had its own Governor in that context.”
                    Exactly. So it was not a state.

                    “Like so much of the carve up the Middle East which followed WW I, I “boggle” at the arrogance of the “super powers” of the time, viz Britain and France as they created states (Iraq) and drew up boundaries to suit their own convenience and interests. And we are reaping the whirlwind of those decisions.”
                    Oh indeed. As with Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, etc etc.

                    “By the way, I presume that “Democracy” and “Majority” don’t necessarily equate in your world.”
                    Oh yes indeed. Israel’s legitimacy is demonstrated by it’s virtual immediate recognition by the vast ‘majority’ of nations in 1948. It has been the only ‘democracy’ in the middle east for decades, until recently. It has successfully maintained peace accords with Egypt and Jordan for decades. She willingly accepts Jew, Arab and all other nationalities and culture alike. She doesn’t execute gays or stone women who are raped. This is the state you hate, in favour of a people group who elected terrorists to run their people.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Therefore cluster bombing children is cool, yes?

                      The Moraninthemiddle is back to “He did it too! Two wrongs make a right!”

                      …willingly accepts Jew, Arab and all other nationalities and culture alike…not. The racist troll has no grasp of even the most recent history.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Israel’s legitimacy is demonstrated by it’s virtual immediate recognition by the vast ‘majority’ of nations in 1948.

                      And the illegality of its subsequent actions is demonstrated by the UN Security Council.

                      Funny how a lot of the international goodwill towards the state of Israel that was present in 1948 has disappeared. Almost as though they’ve done something wrong.

                    • Marcus Morris

                      Sorry WFW I don’t think that there is anything in my posts that suggest Hate. Neither do I necessarily question Israel’s legitimacy but I do question the legitimacy of the settlements in the “occupied territories” which I believe were not mandated in 1948 and I am shocked at the treatment of the people of Palestine during and since that time the people of Palestine refer to as Al Nakba. I have given several authoritative references to this in my posts but you may well find their narrative unpalatable to your own. As for your last paragraph I frankly can’t see the relevance. As I have also said elsewhere, there are many Jewish people both inside and outside Israel that share my concerns.

                    • wellfedweta

                      “Neither do I necessarily question Israel’s legitimacy but I do question the legitimacy of the settlements in the “occupied territories” which I believe were not mandated in 1948 and I am shocked at the treatment of the people of Palestine during and since that time the people of Palestine refer to as Al Nakba.”
                      Are you shocked by the Arab response to Res 181? To the Arab aggression in 1956, 1967 and 1973? To the response to Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza?

                    • wellfedweta

                      “…willingly accepts Jew, Arab and all other nationalities and culture alike…not.”

                      Your link is to a list of nations known to harbour terrorists. Even your deceit is weak.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Yawn. Your drivel about accepting all nationalities is a lie. The link proves it. Now fuck off.

                    • wellfedweta

                      ‘ The link proves it.”

                      No, all it proves is you lie. NZ accepts all nationalities. Just not terrorists. Israel is the same.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      NZ discriminates on the basis of behaviour – criminality and so-on, not on the basis of ethnicity or nationality. Only dishonest racist cry-babies like you do that.

                    • wellfedweta

                      “NZ discriminates on the basis of behaviour – ”

                      As do Israel.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Nope, they discriminate on the basis of nationality. That’s why Ha’aretz said it makes Israel an apartheid state. I think they know more about it than you do, because they are Israel’s oldest daily newspaper, and you are a whining little baby crying your denial on a blog.

                    • Marcus Morris

                      Just read your comment again – I think I can (and have) refuted every one of your arguments. The fact that you don’t agree with them certainly doesn’t nullify them. We just have diametrically opposed points of view. What I do refute most strenuously is your assertion that I hate Israel. Their current government is made up of what I regard as very right wing Jews. The assassination of Rabin by an extreme right wing fanatic was a tragedy for the whole settlement process and Rabin’s stance suggested that there is/was a significant number of Israelis who recognised the legitimacy of the “Palestinian” cause. I use quotation marks because you will use the rather semantic term that there is no such person. I am trying to find you post about the legitimacy that history provides for invading peoples. Millions of displaced indigenous people should take comfort from that assertion except that you add the rider that some “occupations” can be legitimised. Good, that means that every immigrant to New Zealand over the last one hundred and seventy years can feel secure.

                    • wellfedweta

                      ” I think I can (and have) refuted every one of your arguments. ”

                      Not a single one.

                      Why did the arab’s not accept Res 181?

                      Why did the residents of Gaza start firing on Israel after the Israeli withdrawal?

                      Why did the residents of Gaza elect a terrorist organisation to be its government?

                    • wellfedweta

                      Here is the list of countries Israel excludes the citizens of:

                      Iran, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Libya, Sudan, Syria, Iraq, Pakistan, Yemen, the West Bank and Gaza Strip

                      All paragons of democracy and peace, eh Bloke. These are the terrorists you share your bed with.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Smearing all citizens of those countries as terrorists confirms that you are a racist, sharing your bed with war criminals who threaten New Zealand.

                    • wellfedweta

                      “Smearing all citizens of those countries as terrorists confirms that you are a racist…”

                      Not at all. Just careful. Israel is a country whose very existence has been threatened by militant arabs since it’s inception. I have asked you several times what happened after Israel returned Gaza…you steadfastly refuse to answer. After reading some of your hate filled diatribe, I am tending to see why people such as Bruce Logan advocate for a one state solution (see todays NZH).

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Some people call it “racial profiling”. Racist Quislings like you try and justify it, and in doing so betray your country.

                    • wellfedweta

                      “Some people call it “racial profiling”.”

                      I call it a fair bet. History has proven Israel correct many times, and if there were countries supporting terrorism against NZ I wouldn’t want their citizens coming here either.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      You are a racist apologist for war criminals. Let’s agree to disagree.

            • Draco T Bastard 14.5.1.2.1.2

              Palestine is the historical homeland of the Jewish people.

              No it’s not. They lost it more than two thousand years ago. Now the only people have any claim to it happens to be the people who populated it at the beginning of the 20th century which happens to be the Palestinians.

              Or, if you want to maintain your position I expect you to demand that the USA return all the land to the native Americans. Everyone else should immediately return to where they came from.

              Palestine was a territroy, a geographical area, not a nation state.

              And how do you think nation states came to be?
              It was people in a geographic area that had lived there peacefully with each other for generations deciding that they were all one people and governing as such. That’s how we got England, Wales and Scotland.

              You really need to do some homework.

              No, that would be you.

              • Wellfedweta

                You cannot ‘lose’ your historical homeland. It can be occupied by others, even permanently and legally, but history is what it is. It cannot be changed.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  You cannot ‘lose’ your historical homeland.

                  But it’s not. Using your logic we should be giving Palestine back to the Canaanites? You know, the original inhabitants. I’m sure we could find some around somewhere.

                  The Jews lost Judea 2000+ years ago. That’s it. Now it’s Palestine and it belongs to the Palestinians.

                  • Wellfedweta

                    There is no such people as the Canaanites. There are, however, Jews, who were promised a homeland, which many Arabs seek to deny them.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Idiot. Did the people who made the promise own the land? Did they donate any land?

                      No?

                      I promise I will get you an Xbox. It’s on the living room table three doors down. Just go and get it, and never mind the people who live there.

                      Whoever spoon-fed you this “argument” needs to get a grip on reality.

                    • wellfedweta

                      “Did the people who made the promise own the land?”
                      Yes. The Allies ‘owned’ the land by virtue of their defeat of the Ottoman Empire in WW1.

                      “Did they donate any land?”
                      Who is ‘they’. If you are referring to the inhabitants of ‘palestine’, ‘they’ were part of the Ottoman Empire who lost the war. If you want to go by Res 181 boundaries, you’re too late. The Arab’s rejected those boundaries, and haven’t stopped attacking Israel ever since.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Sad little cry-baby, the British mandate did not confer ownership on the British, merely administrative duties.

                      Whinge and wail some more, the UN Security Council will not notice or care.

                    • wellfedweta

                      “Sad little cry-baby, the British mandate did not confer ownership on the British, merely administrative duties.”

                      Where did I say it did? I said ‘the allies’. Off the meds again?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Not to mention that it’s a flaccid diversion, since as previously pointed out to you, displacing the existing inhabitants of land won by conquest is a war crime.

                      Some war criminals who just threatened war on us. Fuck you for siding with them.

                    • wellfedweta

                      “since as previously pointed out to you, displacing the existing inhabitants of land won by conquest is a war crime.”

                      Says a sympathiser of terror.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Meanwhile, on Earth, I condemn Hamas and Likud equally, and note that Likud are the ones threatening New Zealand with war, and that you are standing up for them against your own country.

                      You Quisling coward.

                    • wellfedweta

                      “…and note that Likud are the ones threatening New Zealand with war…”

                      Cite? You really need to learn to read.

                      https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/28/netanyahu-told-new-zealand-backing-un-vote-would-be-declaration-of-war

                      Netanyahu even spelled out the consequences …

                      ” It will rupture the relations and there will be consequences. We’ll recall our ambassador [from New Zealand] to Jerusalem.”

                      Can’t read, or can’t stop lying? Which is it Bloke?

                    • wellfedweta

                      Where is the material to support your claim that ‘Likud have threatened NZ with war’? You make a habit of lying, Bloke, so I’m going to start calling you on it.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      If you post any more drivel I will take that as a direct threat, a declaration of war.

                      According to you, that statement contains no threat whatsoever, you war-criminal-cuddling Quisling coward.

                    • wellfedweta

                      “According to you, that statement contains no threat whatsoever”

                      That’s not what you said. You said Likud had threatened NZ with war.

                      This is what Netanyahu is claimed to have said:

                      “If you continue to promote this resolution, from our point of view it will be a declaration of war. It will rupture the relations and there will be consequences. We’ll recall our ambassador [from New Zealand] to Jerusalem.”
                      https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/28/netanyahu-told-new-zealand-backing-un-vote-would-be-declaration-of-war

                      There is no threat of war from Israel’s side. You lied.

                    • mickysavage []

                      Claiming that passing a resolution seeking to uphold an important principle of International Law is a declaration of waw is a bit excessive tho, doncha think?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      I knew you wouldn’t be able to understand the point. If you continue to be so stupid I will take this as a declaration of war.

                      No threat there at all. What do you get when you cross a Quisling with a fool?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Claiming that passing a resolution seeking to uphold an important principle of International Law is a declaration of war is a bit excessive tho, doncha think?

                      It looks like the war criminal is trying to establish a premise for committing some more war crimes. If we can take him at face value (and let’s face it, his word ain’t worth shit), he will pretend that NZ’s actions justify military force against us.

                      I say bring the full might of the Five-Eyes alliance against this scumbag. Unless our “allies” word ain’t worth shit either.

                    • wellfedweta

                      “Claiming that passing a resolution seeking to uphold an important principle of International Law is a declaration of waw is a bit excessive tho, doncha think?”

                      Of course it is. Silly rhetoric. But it isn’t threatening war.

                    • wellfedweta

                      “If we can take him at face value (and let’s face it, his word ain’t worth shit), he will pretend that NZ’s actions justify military force against us.”

                      So you’re backing down from your previous claim that ‘Likud have threatened NZ with war’.

                      Well done Bloke. Seeing sense at last.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      So you stupidly failed to grasp the example I gave you, and in doing so declared war on me. Everything that flows from this is therefore your fault.

                      Why would I back down from a stupid warmonger racist Quisling?

                    • wellfedweta

                      “So you stupidly failed to grasp the example I gave you, and in doing so declared war on me. ”

                      I’ve asked you to back up your claim about Likud. You have failed. Your example is nothing more than a childish attempt to avoid admitting you lied.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      You’ve already failed to grasp the point, because your racism depends on your failure to grasp it.

                      Like almost everyone else here, in the NZ government, and the UN Security Council, I disagree with you.

                    • Wellfedweta

                      “You’ve already failed to grasp the point, ”

                      Your claim about Likud…still waiting Bloke.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Yes, the point illustrates how my ridiculous assertion that your stupidity is a declaration of war could be taken as a threat.

                      Ditto for your war criminal spoon-feeders.

                    • wellfedweta

                      “Yes, the point illustrates how my ridiculous assertion that your stupidity is a declaration of war could be taken as a threat.”

                      Likud, Bloke. Where is your evidence. Stop evading.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      The evidence is in your racist spoon-feeder’s threats to NZ. Namely, that our condemning their racist illegal settlements is a declaration of war.

                      If you don’t understand the threat in that statement you are a fool as well as a racist Quisling dupe.

                      Heads of state are well advised to avoid such rhetoric unless they really mean it. If you tell me you’re going to hit me if I say that again, I will say it again, and when you hit me, I will hit you first.

                      That’s how threats work.

                    • wellfedweta

                      “Namely, that our condemning their racist illegal settlements is a declaration of war.”

                      Where us your evidence that Likud have declared war Bloke? I’ve given you plenty of opportunity, now I’m going to start a list of your screw ups.

                • Marcus Morris

                  So let all of us who have arrived at these shores since 1840 and occupy land that was largely stolen from the indigenous people all return to our nations of origin.

                  • wellfedweta

                    Do you not understand the Romans stole the land originally from the Jews?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      The place has been conquered too many times to count. The UN Security Council has ruled that illegal settlements are illegal all the same.

                      It’s time for you to accept that and move on. Or wail and whinge your denial on a blog some more, cry-baby.

                    • wellfedweta

                      “The UN Security Council has ruled that illegal settlements are illegal all the same.”

                      What did the UN rule about the rockets flying from Gaza after Israel withdrew?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      I see you’re back to claiming that “he did it too! Two wrongs make a right!”

                      Whinge and wail, you miserable cry-baby.

                    • wellfedweta

                      “I see you’re back to claiming that “he did it too! ”

                      In the unlikely possibility you are taking your meds, I’ll try to explain. This isn’t about ‘he did it too’. This is about the right of Israel to exist as a sovereign nation. That right is denied by Hamas, who the Palestinian Arab’s elected as their government. That right was denied in 1948, despite international recognition, by the Arab refusal to accept Res 181. That right was rejected by the Gaza Palestinian leadership when Israel withdrew.

                      The Palestinian people, such as they are, will have peace when they stop their violent, terrorist behaviour.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Meanwhile, the UN security council has ruled that these settlements are illegal, Israel says we’re at war, and you’re sticking up for them.

                      I don’t think even Lord Haw-Haw was such a whinging cry-baby though.

                    • wellfedweta

                      “Meanwhile, the UN security council has ruled that these settlements are illegal…”

                      So? What happened when Israel returned the Gaza?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      They did it too, but unfortunately that argument didn’t work when they were five and doesn’t work now.

                      Why do you stand up for war criminals of any persuasion?

                    • wellfedweta

                      “Why do you stand up for war criminals of any persuasion?”

                      I stand up for a sovereign state against terrorism. You support terrorism. That’s the difference between us. That and your meds.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      You stand up for war criminals who are threatening your country. I condemn Hamas and Likud equally.

                      You Quisling coward.

                    • wellfedweta

                      “You stand up for war criminals who are threatening your country. ”

                      You mean Iran?

              • Paul

                Draco, you do realise he will never stop.
                These right wing trolls are really clogging up this site.

          • Paul 14.5.1.2.2

            I recommend we ignore wellfedweta . He is clearly trolling.

        • Wellfedweta 14.5.1.3

          Yes. And that has been the pattern for decades. And…if Israel is required to return those lands, under International Law they are required to return them to the previous occupants, who are not Palestinians. Some here need a history lesson.

          • Paul 14.5.1.3.1

            Who were the previous occupants if not the Palestinians?
            Please provide your history lesson for us….

            • Wellfedweta 14.5.1.3.1.1

              There was no such thing as ‘palestinians’. There have been Arab and Jewish occupants of an area loosely d scribed as Palestine for eons, but the area was a wasteland. The Jews have an uninterrupted connection with the area for millennia, and have made huge sacrifices to try to achieve peace, including agreeing to borders in 1948 that were significantly less than they had been promised. The ‘palestinians’ have elected terrorist organisations to government whose stated purpose is the destruction of Israel. They have never learned their lessons from the past…Israel defends it’s legal borders…and frankly I have zero sympathy. McCully is a fool, and the UN is a corrupt institution that should be wound up.

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                There are no such things as Arabs and Jews: they are all Semites, and all of them have had an uninterrupted connection with the area for millennia.

                cf: Josephus Flavius on the difference between the Jews and the other inhabitants of Palestine.

                You see how completely shite your attempt to write people out of existence is? Of course you don’t, you’re a fuckwit.

                “A land of wheat and barley, a land of fig trees and pomegranates, a land of olive trees and honey.” Deuteronomy.

                So much for a wasteland. You need an amygdalectomy.

                • Wellfedweta

                  Arabs and Jews are seperate people groups with vastly different cultures.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke

                    As I said: your feeble attempt to copy and paste an argument is a fail.

                    Josephus makes it very clear, except to amygdala-based lifeforms.

                    • Wellfedweta

                      Do you believe everything Josephus wrote?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      I am confident that I can attach more weight to his account than yours, because you are an ignorant parrot wailing your denial on a blog, Maninthemiddle.

              • joe90

                but the area was a wasteland.

                In the early nineteenth century Rabbi Joseph Schwarz wrote and published a book about the history, geography, geology, fauna, and flora of that wasteland.

                Descriptive Geography and Brief Historical Sketch of Palestine

                By Rabbi Joseph Schwarz, 1850

                http://www.jewish-history.com/Palestine/

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  Yes, but he was clearly mad, because he talked about Palestine as though it exists, and Maninthemiddle’s amygdala says it doesn’t!

                • Paul

                  I sense you’re wasting your time….
                  The obese weta has form.

                • Wellfedweta

                  Indeed he did. But how many people lived there? Who ruled it? What was it’s economy? Israel is a vibrant democracy with a strong economy, capable of defending itself against 50 milllion addressor neighbours. The area you call Palestine was a wasteland.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke

                    The area you call Palestine was a wasteland.

                    Liar.

                    Define it on a map.

                    • Wellfedweta

                      Define ‘Palestine on a map, dipshit.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      You said the area was a wasteland. Define the borders of the alleged wasteland so that your witless drivel is exposed for all to see.

                      You can’t, because you’re an ignorant parrot.

                      You cannot back up your claims. Choke on it.

                    • When he says “the area you call Palestine was a wasteland,” he means it had an agrarian economy run by an inferior race. If he was an adult 30 years ago, he was probably making the same argument for the superiority of Apartheid.

                    • wellfedweta

                      “You said the area was a wasteland. ”

                      And it was.

                      “….. A desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds… a silent mournful expanse…. a desolation…. we never saw a human being on the whole route…. hardly a tree or shrub anywhere. Even the olive tree and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, had almost deserted the country.”
                      (The Innocents Abroad, p. 361-362)

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      In Mark Twain’s time eh.

                      Precisely the time in which Rabbi Schwarz (cited by Jo above) wrote his Descriptive Geography and Brief Historical Sketch of Palestine.

                      Who to believe, an American humorist writing for comic effect, or the good rabbi.

                      Geez, that;s a toughie. You’ll do what your amygdala tells you.

                  • Marcus Morris

                    Absolute rubbish. I suggest you have a look at the sources I have quoted above.

              • Draco T Bastard

                The Jews have an uninterrupted connection with the area for millennia,

                No they don’t. They left after the Romans kicked them out 2000+ years ago.

                and have made huge sacrifices to try to achieve peace, including agreeing to borders in 1948 that were significantly less than they had been promised.

                It wasn’t the Palestinians, the occupiers of the land in question, that promised them and thus it wasn’t a promise that could be kept.

                • Paul

                  You’re hopeful expecting wellfedweta to listen to reason!

                • Wellfedweta

                  The Jews never left. There have been Jews living in ‘Palestine’ continuously. Despite the best efforts of racist dictators.

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    Four points:

                    1. They were only a minority
                    2. They didn’t run the place
                    3. They don’t own the place either
                    4. It’s the ones that left that decided that they wanted it back despite the place now belonging to another people

                  • One Anonymous Bloke

                    The Semites never left. There have been Semites living in Palestine continuously, despite the best efforts of various Semites.

                    As Josephus makes clear, the Semites are not one people. Neither are you and I, amygdala victim.

                  • Marcus Morris

                    This is a very sad comment. Who were the racist dictators? You are constantly suggesting that others read some history in your posts. I suggest that you do some research on the history of the Jewish people over the last two thousand years and see where they were able to live in peace and harmony. I suggest that Spain under the Moors (Muslims) might be a useful place to start. Then see how they were treated in that country after 1492 – I presume you have heard of the Spanish inquisition – have a look at the origins if its purpose.

                    • wellfedweta

                      I have an excellent grasp of history. The Jews generally did well under the Moors, despite being subject to discrimination. But what does that have to do with palestine and the attempt by arabs today to wipe Israel off the map?

                      https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/oct/27/israel.iran

                    • Marcus Morris

                      WFW- you invoke the notion of racist dictators – are you talking about recent history of history over two millenium. That is my point. List the despots who practiced ethnic cleansing with respect to the Jewish people living in Palestine from say 1000 to 1800AD?

                • GregJ

                  Actually the forbade the return of Jews to the area around Jerusalem however significant numbers of Jews and Jewish communities remained in Judea/Samaria/Palestine even after the Bar Kokhba revolt and the Diaspora.

                  Tiberias on the Sea of Galilee continued to have a strong Jewish community right through the Roman period and into the Byzantine (Late Roman era) and on into the conquest of the area by the Muslims in the AD 630 & 640s. 20,000 local Jews rose up in revolt in AD 614 when the Persians attempted to conquer Jerusalem (mainly on a promise by the Persians of a return to Jerusalem – a fundamental tenet of post Bar Kokhba Judaism). There was significant persecution of Jews in Judea/Samria/Palestine recorded in the Byzantine sources post AD 614 under the Emperor Heraclius (who drove back and defeated the Persians) before losing the area to the Muslim conquest.

                  According to both Umayyad & Abbasid sources there continued to be a Jewish presence and settlements in Ash-Shām (the Arabic name for the Levant – Palestine, Lebanon & Syria) specifically in the Galilee region – but also a large Jewish community existed in Ramle and smaller communities in Hebron and the coastal cities of Acre, Caesarea, Jaffa, Ashkelon and Gaza. Al-Muqaddasi (AD 985) wrote that “for the most part the assayers of corn, dyers, bankers, and tanners are Jews…”

                  Jews were permitted to return to Jerusalem under the Umayyad Caliphs but not allowed to worship at the Temple Mount (Dome of the Rock). Jews helped defend Jerusalem from the Crusaders in AD 1099 and then suffered 200 years of persecution by the various Crusader States which took it’s toll on the Jews in Palestine. It reached a low point in the AD 1400 when there was only about 150 Jewish families recorded in Jerusalem. However Jewish numbers recovered in Jerusalem and Palestine under the Ottomans. By the AD 1880 Jews were probably a majority in the old city of Jerusalem (having been the largest religious grouping since the 1830s). They probably made up about 5% of the total population in Palestine.

                  So it is certainly not inaccurate to say there has been a continuous Jewish presence since the “Biblical” period – even during the Babylonian captivity there was still actually a significant Jewish population in Judah/Israel.

              • There was no such thing as ‘palestinians’.

                There’s no such thing as any nationality if you have enough of a motive to argue it out of existence. Fortunately, most people recognise the motive and treat the people peddling the argument as trolls.

                • Wellfedweta

                  No, seriously Palestinians was not a nationality because Palestine was not a country.

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    Nation

                    a large body of people, associated with a particular territory, that is sufficiently conscious of its unity to seek or to possess a government peculiarly its own

                    And that is what the Palestinians have had for centuries.

                  • Yes, seriously people with an agenda try to claim that various ethnic groups or nationalities simply don’t exist, because their existence is inconvenient to said agenda. This despite the patent, observable existence of the ethnic group or nationality in question. It’s pretty ugly shit, and straight-out racist.

                    If you really want to peddle that shit, you’re also saying Israeli was not a nationality because Israel was not a country. And yet, fuck me, there they all are in their millions, making out like they actually exist or something. Just stop digging.

                  • instauration

                    WFW
                    1/ What part of GA181 do you not understand ?
                    2/ Please tell us which of the obligations accorded in this gracious arrangement, the “State of Israel” has delivered ?

                    I trust that between questions 1 and 2 you will have done a wee bit of “googling” – maybe ?

              • Marcus Morris

                The assertion that the land in dispute or that has been “reclaimed” was a wasteland is a spurious argument. In his book (I suggest you read it) “You can’t hide the sun” journalist John McCarthy travels with a pre 1948 military map in one hand and a modern AA road guide in the other. Dozens of villages and towns have either been obliterated or been given new names. This has been the most despicable aspect of ethnic cleansing and the rewriting of geographical history.

                I cannot understand why McCully (of “sheepgate” infamy) should be being singled out for all this disapprobation. On a matter as serious as this it would have been a collective cabinet decision. While every other nation on the security council, except the US which abstained, voted in favour of the Resolution but, in his anger, I don’t see Netanyahu threatening any of the “big boys” with dire consequences.

                • wellfedweta

                  “The assertion that the land in dispute or that has been “reclaimed” was a wasteland is a spurious argument.”

                  An assertion for which you provide no evidence.

                  On the other hand:

                  Mark Twain from Innocents Abroad (1867)

                  “Palestine sits in sackcloth and ashes. Over it broods the spell of a curse that has withered its fields and fettered its energies. Palestine is desolate and unlovely – Palestine is no more of this workday world. It is sacred to poetry and tradition, it is dreamland.”(Chapter 56)[4][5] “There was hardly a tree or a shrub anywhere. Even the olive and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, had almost deserted the country”. (Chapter 52)[6] “A desolation is here that not even imagination can grace with the pomp of life and action. We reached Tabor safely. We never saw a human being on the whole route”. (Chapter 49)[7] “There is not a solitary village throughout its whole extent – not for thirty miles in either direction. …One may ride ten miles (16 km) hereabouts and not see ten human beings.” …these unpeopled deserts, these rusty mounds of barrenness…”(Chapter 46)[8]

                  • mickysavage

                    Gee quoting Twain’s observations from 1867. That is obviously conclusive of what was actually happening in 1967.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke

                    Time to rub your face in Rabbi Yehoseph Schwarz, 1804-1865; A descriptive geography and brief historical sketch of Palestine

                    THE VEGETABLE KINGDOM.

                    golden apple… lemons…Pears… Peaches… Almonds…MuIberries… Walnuts,…Hazelnuts…Pistachio…Chestnuts… Gourd… Ricinus oil… Wheat… the best wheat is grown in the country situated near Gazza… Rice… lentils… Maize… Both the last-mentioned grow on thin stalks, which attain the height of a man.

                    You need to do more homework.

                    • wellfedweta

                      So? There were crops, vegetables.

                      Here’s more to rub your nose in:

                      In 1856 Henry Baker Tristram said of Palestine “A few years ago the whole Ghor (Jordan Valley) was in the hands of the fellaheen, and much of it cultivated for corn. Now the whole of it is in the hands of the Bedouin, who eschew all agriculture…The same thing is now going on over the plain of Sharon where….land is going out of cultivation and whole villages rapidly disappeared….Since the year 1838, no less than twenty villages there have thus erased from the map, and the stationary population extirpated.”

                      H.B. Tristram, The Land of Israel: A Journal of Travels Through Palestine, London: Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge, 1865, p. 490

                    • wellfedweta

                      Carl Hermann Voss, “The Palestine Problem Today, Israel and Its Neighbors” (Boston, 1953), p. 13.

                      “In the twelve and a half centuries between the Arab conquest in the seventh century and the beginnings of the Jewish return in the 1880’s, Palestine was laid waste. Its ancient canal and irrigation systems were destroyed and the wondrous fertility of which the Bible spoke vanished into desert and desolation… Under the Ottoman empire of the Turks, the policy of disfoliation continued; the hillsides were denuded of trees and the valleys robbed of their topsoil.”

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Were there people living there in 1947?

                      Yes.

                      Everything else is you standing up for war criminals who are threatening your country. You Quisling coward.

                    • wellfedweta

                      J.S. Buckingham, Travels in Palestine (London, 1821), p. 162.

                      J. S. Buckingham described his visit of 1816 to Jaffa, which “has all the appearances of a poor village, and every part of it that we saw was of corresponding meanness.”11 Buckingham described Ramle, “where, as throughout the greater part of Palestine, the ruined portion seemed more extensive than that which was inhabited.”

                    • wellfedweta

                      “James Finn to the Earl of Clarendon, Jerusalem, September 15, 1857, F.O. 78/1294 (Pol. No. 36).”

                      The British Consul in Palestine reported in 1857 that

                      The country is in a considerable degree empty of inhabitants and therefore its greatest need is that of a body of population….

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      So now it’s established that you’re here to stand up for war criminals who are threatening war on New Zealand, perhaps you should pray that you don’t get treated like Hamas.

                    • wellfedweta

                      “Were there people living there in 1947?”

                      Yes. Jew and Arab, under Allied rule, the British Mandate. Then came UN Res 181. Then came almost 60 years of Arab intransigence and violence towards a legitimate, internationally recognised sovereign nation. Would you like some more?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Displacement of civilians is a war crime. You are a cheer-leader for war criminals who have just been condemned by the UN Security Council, and responded by threatening us with war.

                      What other activities do you conduct on behalf of these war criminals who threaten us?

                    • wellfedweta

                      “So now it’s established that you’re here to stand up for war criminals”

                      No, that would be you.

                      ” who are threatening war on New Zealand,”

                      Really? And you can support that?

                      “…perhaps you should pray that you don’t get treated like Hamas.”

                      Don’t you mean how Hamas treat other people?

                    • wellfedweta

                      “Displacement of civilians is a war crime.”

                      Israel is occupying land it won off arab aggressors. That’s the arab’s problem. Israel gave back Gaza, and the arab’s started shooting. I notice you are ignoring that point.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Nope, I’m not standing up for Hamas or Likud, you Quisling coward. They’re all war criminals who should be dragged to the Hague and made to answer for their crimes.

                      What other duties do you perform for war criminals, Quisling?

                    • wellfedweta

                      “Nope, I’m not standing up for Hamas…”

                      Yes you are.

                      Why did the arabs not accept Res 181?

                      Why did the arabs not accept Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza?

                    • wellfedweta

                      “The north and south [of the Sharon plain] land is going out of cultivation and whole villages are rapidly disappearing from the face of the earth. Since the year 1838, no less than 20 villages there have been thus erased from the map [by the Bedouin] and the stationary population extirpated.”

                      H.B. Tristram, The Land of1sraek A Journal of Travels in Palestine (London, 1865), p. 490.

                      Got the point yet, Bloke?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Yes: the point is that you are cuddling up to war criminals who have made a direct threat against your country.

                      You Quisling coward.

                    • wellfedweta

                      ” the point is that you are cuddling up to war criminals who have made a direct threat against your country.”

                      Changing the subject eh.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      What Swordfish said about your sources, you war-criminal-cuddling cowardly Quisling.

                    • wellfedweta

                      You can’t handle it, can you Bloke?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Meanwhile, on Earth, I’m not invested in it the way you are, and I doubt your sources accuracy, because let’s face it, they might be Quisling cowards just like you, and you are standing up for war criminals who threaten our country, you Quisling coward.

                      If they follow through on their threats, what other services will you perform for them, coward?

                  • Marcus Morris

                    It is an assertion based on the book I am reading – and I have suggested that you read it. What more can I say. You believe your sources, I believe mine. I would love to see it for myself but this will never happen so I rely on the word of others. The number of times I have seen Mark Twain quoted beggars belief. We will never know how he would react if he saw his comments being used in this way but I somehow doubt that he would be pleased. Just saying.

                    • wellfedweta

                      I’ve posted a lot more than just Mark Twain. There is a wide consensus amongst the historical record that the area was depopulating and large swathes were wasteland. But yes, we can agree to disagree.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      the historical record

                      Translation: the material wfw has been spoon-fed and swallowed whole like a racist dupe.

                      For example, Wikipedia notes that “This influx amounted to some 12,000 over the period from 1880 to just before the First World War”

                      So much for “depopulating”.

                      Is The Standard simply a vehicle for the nauseating repetition of racist lies these days?

          • Draco T Bastard 14.5.1.3.2

            No. Israel is an invasion of Palestine.

            • Wellfedweta 14.5.1.3.2.1

              Israel is a just return of land to those it belongs to. Palestine is a construct that has come to represent violence and terrorism by Arab peoples.

              • Draco T Bastard

                No, Israel is the invasion and theft of Palestinian land.

              • Israel is a “just return” of Palestinian land to the east European settlers it “belongs to?” The Modern Language Association called, they’d like you to stop torturing the English language.

                • Wellfedweta

                  It isn’t and wasn’t ‘palestinian’ land.

                  • It sure as fuck wasn’t “Israeli” land.

                    • garibaldi

                      Zionists appear to be incapable of understanding that two wrongs don’t make a right.
                      The world fell over backwards to compensate the Jews after the holocaust, but for the Zionist rulers that wasn’t enough and still isn’t enough.

                    • wellfedweta

                      It is now. As per Balfour, the British Mandate, Resolution 181 and subsequent conflicts. If the Arab’s had not started war with Israel in 1947, 1956, 1967 and 1973, there would be no occupied territories.

                    • Balfour didn’t see any great problem with giving someone else’s country to European colonists. The people living there, somewhat understandably, failed to share his views. Every official mandate that the state of Israel is based on also mandates a state for the people the land belonged to before the settlers turned up. The Israelis can either accept that or settle down to being a pariah state in perpetuity. The loonier fringes of Christianity and White racists also should accept it, because they’re not doing the world any favours.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      Balfour and Palestine, a legacy of deceit, by Anthony Nutting

                      No longer can anyone be under such an illusion. For the Government of the day stand condemned out of their own mouths and writings of conniving at and furthering every Zionist design from the issue of the Balfour Declaration onwards. In document after document of the State Papers which Mrs Ingrams has brought to light the sordid proof is revealed that Balfour and his colleagues knew exactly what the Zionists were up to and that, with the honourable exceptions of Lord Curzon and Edwin Montagu, they had every intention of helping them to fulfil their aims.

                      Worse than this,the Government deliberately set out to deceive the Arab majority in Palestine as to their real intentions with promises and guarantees that they had ‘nothing to be frightened about'[1]and that Britain would ‘never consent’ to a Jewish Government being set up to rule their land.[2]

                    • wellfedweta

                      “Every official mandate that the state of Israel is based on also mandates a state for the people the land belonged to before the settlers turned up.”
                      Which people? There were both Jews and Arabs in ‘palestine’. The Mandate gave the jews a nation state in ‘palestine’. The Arab’s refused to accept that from the very outset.

                      “The Israelis can either accept that or settle down to being a pariah state in perpetuity. ”
                      The Israeli’s have accepted that. The land they ‘occupy’ is the result of Arab aggression. 1948, 1956, 1967 and 1973. Israel withdrew from Gaza and the Palestinians couldn’t even wait a week before opening fire. Israel has maintained long standing peace accords with both Egypt and Jordan, but the ‘palestinians’ don’t want peace, they want the destruction of Israel.

                    • Which people?

                      The ones the Israelis turned into refuguees in 1948. I’m aware you find these people inconvenient and prefer to pretend they didn’t actually exist, but physical reality takes no account of your preferences.

                      The Israeli’s have accepted that.

                      Perhaps you lost track of it in among all that sophistry, but the basis for the OP is a recent UN resolution reminding Israel that colonising the Palestinian territories is illegal. You don’t colonise or otherwise occupy territory you’ve accepted belongs to someone else. But thanks for getting us back on to the actual subject of the thread.

                    • wellfedweta

                      “The ones the Israelis turned into refuguees in 1948.”

                      No-one was turned into refugees. Israel welcomes Arab peoples, as long as they mean peace. The situation then is similar to that today; many of Syria’s Arab neighbors refuse to accept Syrian refugees. If Arab’s didn’t like prosperity Israeli rule brought to Israel, they could leave. But I doubt their Arab neighbors would accept them.

                      “Perhaps you lost track of it in among all that sophistry, but the basis for the OP is a recent UN resolution reminding Israel that colonising the Palestinian territories is illegal. ”

                      They aren’t colonising. They are occupying disputed territories, and there is historical justification for that.

              • Marcus Morris

                This is an extract from Wikipedia, whose credibility I have no doubt you will disavow.

                I note that it refers to the government of Palestine (capital P) so it is clear that at least some authorities recognised it as a state. I wonder too whether you judge the Irgun or the Haganah as terrorist groups or freedom fighters – that rather depends on whose “side” you are on I think.

                “The King David Hotel bombing was a terrorist attack carried out on Monday July 22, 1946 by the militant right-wing[9] Zionist underground organization, the Irgun, on the British administrative headquarters for Palestine, which was housed in the southern wing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem. 91 people of various nationalities were killed and 46 injured

                The hotel was the site of the central offices of the British Mandatory authorities of Palestine, principally the Secretariat of the Government of Palestine and the Headquarters of the British Armed Forces in Palestine and Transjordan. When planned, the attack had the approval of the Haganah, the principal Jewish paramilitary group in Palestine”

                • wellfedweta

                  I don’t dismiss Wiki automatically. Is the ‘Government of Palestine’ referred to not the British Mandate? During the British Mandate Palestine was certainly recognised, but as an allied territory, not as a nation state.

                  • Morrissey

                    Memo to Moderators:

                    Are incendiary trolls like “wellfedweta” allowed to tell the most flagrant and absurd lies and get away with it? He and one or two others add nothing of value to any discussions; they are intent on wrecking and trivializing everything.

                    Surely they don’t belong on a serious site like this. Whaleoil’s site was established for people like them; why let them ruin a serious site?

                    [He is addressing the post although only just. Will keep an eye on him – MS]

                    • Marcus Morris

                      Actually I am enjoying the debate. It certainly sharpens up my own focus. As I said in an earlier post, we are looking at the whole situation from different viewpoints and, I suspect, ideologies. But isn’t that the case in all such arguments. In the end we must just agree to differ because I doubt that any of us will change our stance on the issue. However giving vent to strongly held feelings is very useful for the psyche I think.

                      Having said all that I think I will move to another topic of interest and there are plenty on this site.

                    • wellfedweta

                      Morrisey you are being childish. You posted a Wiki piece, with no link so I had to take the quote at face value. I accepted the honesty of your quote, and replied accordingly. From what i can see the ‘Government of Palestine’ refers to the British Mandate. If so, that defeats whatever point you were trying to make. If that is not correct, at least have the brains to provide a link to your post instead of running off crying to the mods.

          • swordfish 14.5.1.3.3

            Wellfedtroller “Some here need a history lesson”

            You have ZERO understanding of history.

            To be scrupulously fair, however, I do have to say that you possess a first class knowledge of tired old Israeli Foreign Ministry soundbytes. And your mindless regurgitation of them is absolutely exemplary. Second to none.

            • wellfedweta 14.5.1.3.3.1

              I have an extensive understanding of history, and this particular issue specifically. I notice you have put up no historical evidence to support your claims.

              • swordfish

                You certainly have an extensive understanding of creaky old Israeli mythology. Try reading something a little more substantial than discredited propagandists like Alan Dershowitz and Israeli Foreign Ministry Press releases. All of the banal bullshit you’re cheerfully regurgitating was thoroughly demolished many years ago through copious research by real scholars.

                Your mindless, relentless repetition of these redundant Zionist polemics is becoming a bit tiresome. Best we leave you to your own devices. Knock yourself out.

                • wellfedweta

                  So no actual material evidence, just ad-hominem. But I’ll leave the option open to you to debate the history.

                  • swordfish

                    To Repeat: Your mindless, relentless repetition of these redundant Zionist polemics is becoming a bit tiresome. Best we leave you to your own devices. Knock yourself out.

  15. swordfish 15

    By refusing to veto the Resolution, the US reversed its longstanding policy of shielding the Israeli regime from condemnatory resolutions at the UN.

    Norman Finkelstein argues Obama was taking revenge against Netanyahu by abstaining.

    Obama “wanted to get back at Netanyahu for humiliating him during the Iran negotiations,” Finkelstein told Press TV on Friday night.

    Netanyahu visited the US without a White House invitation in March to attend a joint meeting of Congress and denounce a nuclear deal with Iran in an audacious challenge to Obama.

    “When Netanyahu went to Congress, he humiliated Obama, Obama patiently waited for the opportunity to get this retaliation,” Finkelstein said.

    http://normanfinkelstein.com/2016/12/25/norman-finkelstein-us-vote-was-obama-revenge-on-netanyahu/

    There’s a good argument to be made that by alienating the Congressional Black Caucus with this racist affront, Netanyahu unintentionally helped Obama get the Iran deal.

    • Richard McGrath 15.1

      What exactly did Netanyahu say that was racist? He was given a standing ovation in Congress that went on for minutes. Netanyahu’s problem was with the Iran deal and was unrelated to the skin colour of Obama or the Persians.

      • swordfish 15.1.1

        Not about what he said. It was his actions … spoke volumes.

        Netanyahu is a racist. It’s at the core of his right-wing Likudnik politics. Goes way beyond anti-Arab racism. He’s a Supremacist.

        He barged in on Congress in order to humiliate Obama.

        The Congressional Black Caucus immediately recognised that Netanyahu would never have done this if the President had been white, if it had been, for instance, George Bush. It was a very carefully calculated insult, entirely at odds with normal protocol.

        James Clyburn, assistant minority leader and long-standing member of the Black caucus told Knesset Speaker Yuli Edelstein shortly before Netanyahu’s address that he regarded the upcoming speech as an “affront to America’s first black president,”

        Even African-American Congressman John Lewis, a genuine hero of the 60s Civil Rights Movement, but also , unfortunately, an awful apologist for Israel in recent years (power often corrupts), immediately opted out of attending Netanyahu’s grandstanding.

        As a result, Israel unintentionally alienated the very caucus it needed to block the Iran deal. At the time, veteran correspondent Jonathan Broder, quoted a congressional aide as saying “the Congressional Black Caucus is gone,” referring to its support for Israel under Netanyahu.

        • Draco T Bastard 15.1.1.1

          Netanyahu is a racist. It’s at the core of his right-wing Likudnik politics. Goes way beyond anti-Arab racism. He’s a Supremacist.

          That’s the prevailing view of Israel.

        • wellfedweta 15.1.1.2

          How do you feel about this?

          • joe90 15.1.1.2.1

            Horowitz *snigger*

            • wellfedweta 15.1.1.2.1.1

              Yes, he’s a very clever man. Did you watch the young ‘lady’ in the video? Did you understand what she was saying?

              • joe90

                Clever he maybe but that doesn’t alter the fact that Horowitz is a racist piece of shit.

                • swordfish

                  A Racist, a Far Right Likudnik and a McCarthyite with close ties to Campus-Watch Neo-Conservative loony-tunes like Daniel Pipes.

                  Now we know where Wellfedtroller’s “extensive understanding of history” comes from – namely, the fevered propaganda lines disseminated by loons at the extreme Right-Wing of the US-Israeli spectrum.

                  Not an enormous surprise. His comments were always pointing in that rather ugly direction. But nice to have it confirmed.

                • wellfedweta

                  Did you watch the video?

            • Richard McGrath 15.1.1.2.1.2

              joe90 *snigger*

            • Morrissey 15.1.1.2.1.3

              Watch Horror-wits try to abuse a young American woman here. He’s clearly incensed that she comes across as brighter and more incisive than he is. Not even all the sneering condescension he can muster up, nor his use of the bully pulpit can help him….

        • Richard McGrath 15.1.1.3

          “He barged in on Congress…”

          Bullshit. He was invited by the Speaker of the House:

          https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jan/21/boehner-netanyahu-invite-congress-iran-obama

          Or don’t you believe the Guardian?

          • swordfish 15.1.1.3.1

            “He was invited by the Speaker of the House”

            A Republican invitation engineered by Netanyahu via the very powerful pro-Israel lobby – particularly:

            – the American Israel Political Affairs Committee (AIPAC) – along with Netanyahu’s other powerful, right-wing supporters allied to the Republican Party:

            – multi-billionaire casino magnate , GOP mega-donor, organiser of the Republican Jewish Coalition, and staunch Bibi-backer, Sheldon Adelson, …

            – neoconservative kingpin Bill Kristol (and various hard-line neoconservative organizations like the Foundation for Defense of Democracies, the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs, and the American Enterprise Institute), the sort of dangerously loony groups that Right-Wing Libertarians like you and Lindsay Perigo adore …

            – US-born Israeli Ambassador, Ron Dermer, a former Republican functionary from Florida (who played a central role in co-ordinating with House Speaker John Boehner to issue the invitation) …

            ,
            All arranged with the acquiescence of Republican (and some Democrat) Likudist Hawks in Congress, who also have a core interest in sabotaging negotiations with Iran.

            But, of course, your obsession with this one word – “barged” – misses the point entirely …

            Netanyahu’s deliberate attempt to humiliate Obama – to publicly poke him in the eye – to undermine his negotiations with Iran in a devious way (addressing Congress without White House permission) … an unprecedented interference by a foreign leader and hence a major break with protocol … led to an equally unprecedented boycott by 60 Democrats – most prominently, the Congressional Black Caucus (while at the same time dividing the American Jewish community).

            • Morrissey 15.1.1.3.1.1

              As always, the irrepressible Norman Finkelstein analyzes this perfectly….

              http://normanfinkelstein.com/2016/12/25/norman-finkelstein-us-vote-was-obama-revenge-on-netanyahu/

              • swordfish

                I trust his judgement implicitly.

                Combines great moral authority with rigorous scholarship, a remarkably clear-headed focus and independence of thought. Always go to him first (even ahead of Chomsky). Have done since discovering his scholarship about 15 years ago.

                Followed him closely all these years, witnessed the outrageous destruction of his career … and (maybe even more appalling) the lack of subsequent career support from sections of the US academic and Left-media community nominally supportive of Palestinian rights. And the shunning by certain leading BDS activists because of his principled disagreement with them on particular core facets … despite the fact he pretty much taught them everything they currently know about the conflict. Remarkable lack of gratitude.

  16. One Anonymous Bloke 16

    Netanyahu says Obama set the ball rolling. On the golf course with Key perhaps. In this version of the story, McCully is nothing but a tool.

    I like this version better 🙂

    • Paul 16.1

      Yes, the track record of this government does not suggest it has an independent foreign policy.

      • GregJ 16.1.1

        I’m not convinced on this though. If NZ (or National specifically) was such a puppet of the US why would they risk pissing of the incoming US administration just to satisfy an outgoing one? I mean if Key was still around I guess I could buy a personal relationship with Obama might have lead to letting McCully off the leash.

        I think it is simply easier to believe that NZ acted independently on this.

  17. saveNZ 17

    Hope for peace in the world. Hallejulah!

    If the UN and the security council want to be effective, then they need to follow with real peace keeping resolutions with fairer treatment for all countries. Including calling Israel to account on illegal settlements.

  18. Gavin 18

    WHAT A FOOLISH THING NEW ZEALAND HAS DONE

    This morning I woke up to the news that New Zealand had pushed for the Two State resolution to proceed despite Egypts withdrawal just yesterday at the behest of Israel and President elect Donald Trump.

    Furthermore New Zealand went on to vote against Israel which now aligns us with the Palestinians against Israel. This does not bode well for us as a country and nation, as New Zealand has now taken a clear stand against Israel (God’s inheritance).

    We know from ancient history and as recorded in the Bible that Israel is a nation that belongs to the Jewish people who were given the land of Israel by God. The Palestinians are the direct descendants of the Philistines which were the arch enemies of the Jews. You recall the epic show down between David and Goliath who was a Philistine. It was Philistine against Israel, a huge force against a very small army yet God took it down then and destroyed the Philistines with one blow.

    We are at the same juncture today where the UN is siding with Palestine (check your history, Palestine was the ancient Philistines) against Israel, do you think it will be any different today that God will standby and allow the nations to split up His people’s inheritance. With NZ voting against Israel today, it brings us face to face against the direct will of God. We already had one warning which was the recent earthquake (the UN vote determines to split Jerusalem at the hand of man) which consequently splits our land (earthquake) by the hand of God as a warning. Further actions to divide Jerusalem will cause our land to be divided by divine supernatural events of God (I urge you to watch for these signs as they are a marker on each decision made by a government or country that decides action against Israel. As a side note think about the proximity of the last earthquake to the internal decision to vote against Israel, its the same day that John Kerry met with Murray McCully that we had the earthquake, then if NZ continues on this path you will see a close pattern of judgements to these decisions). Watch for more land dividing judgements (either by earthquakes and/or internal civil divisions) if NZ remain hellbent on siding against Israel and God (The God of Isaac, Jacob and Abraham).

    Watch this:

    God is going to bring judgment to those who try to divide Jerusalem:

    “… there will I deal with and execute judgment upon them for their treatment of My people and of My heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations and because they have divided My land.” [Joel 3:2]

    The current resolution NZ has crafted and pushed for demands that we as a country are demanding that Israel divide her land with her sworn enemies that continue to attack her. As seen above this is God’s heritage and any man or nation that stands against Israel will fall into the hands of the Living God, make no mistake God takes vengance against his enemies.

    Now by NZ pushing for this, has placed New Zealand and its people directly in danger at the hand of God. We are cautioned as to which side we choose, as it is a choice and you have cast a lot in favour against Israel and Gods inheritance.

    Now you have a choice this day, so chose wisely: Are You for God or against God.

    On the current path McCully exposes us to direct judgements from The Father on the land of New Zealand and its people through many and diverse natural and supernatural disaster. If you ignore this message then you do so at your own peril and that of our country and its people as God will judge us and protect Israel and she will not be divided despite your or anyone’s best efforts.

    We as NZ need to reconsider our politically correct actions in what seems to be the right path and move to align yourself and New Zealand to the direct wishes of God our Father and the inheritance He has given to Israel.

    As a child of God, a Christian I am only too aware that these last days are filled with many worldwide events that concern us, but if we are in His hands, we are safe and protected. I urge you now to change course in the direction and favor of Israel (thus standing with God), you don’t want to fall into the hands of the Living God. If we continue on the current path against Israel then we as a nation can expect further judgements from God’s hand against our land and our people. Choose wisely.

    For the LORD’S portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance [Deuteronomy 32:9]

    This message is provided with no ill will or intent but in the love of Jesus Christ and His mercy for us all as a warning.

    Let it be known to all I STAND FOR ISRAEL AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, JACOB AND ABRAHAM.

    If we change course now and repent of our actions, our God is merciful and will have compassion on us and we will not share in the coming nations judgements.

    Remember Belshazzar [Daniel 5: 22 – 31]

    [I let this through. I cannot believe that a compassionate humanitarian God, if there is such a thing, would support what Israel is currently doing – MS]

    • Marcus Morris 18.1

      I wonder if Gavin was watching the programme on Al Jazeera which looked at the history of the Crusades from an Arab point of view. It continues on that channel next Tuesday. Always good to get another perspective .

    • Nic the NZer 18.2

      I have heard NZ referred to as gods own country. When and in what form do you expect his communication resinding this title?

    • Gabby 18.3

      Ennathaday, Jesus is priddiriacks about it though. Ashley.

  19. Shazzadude 19

    Thank you Murray!

  20. Venezia 20

    Although it has been delayed (by family responsibilities) since this news broke, I have just sent McCully an email congratulating him on his efforts for this UN Resolution.

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