What if Trump wins again?

Written By: - Date published: 8:30 am, December 29th, 2019 - 124 comments
Categories: abortion, discrimination, Donald Trump, immigration, International, jacinda ardern, politicans, tax, us politics, workers' rights - Tags:

We may as well prepare ourselves for Trump overperforming his popularity again and winning. Trump is historically more popular than when he won in 2016 (Gallup 61% unfavorable on election eve). We’ve had to deal with left’s retreat in most of the world in 2019.

So let’s prepare and plot some likely accelerated changes in Trump’s second term.

With Republicans retaining the Senate majority, there’s harsher-tilted benches throughout the higher Circuit, Appeals, and Supreme courts. With RBG unable to last and Thomas fading, they get 2 more slots. So get ready for:

  • largely illegal abortions
  • elimination of anti-discrimination programs
  • deep stripping of worker rights
  • fewer unwanted immigrant processing rights
  • even tougher detainee rights
  • Trump keeps his secret corporation taxes
  • removing more cartel controls, and
  • facial data harvesting as a first amendment right

Coherent Federal government really retreats, for many decades.

Maybe we get a lot more Dems emigrating to Canada, Australia, and us.

U.S. interests in the world retreat other than in the Pacific east. In the Middle East they may simply be a formal defense treaty with Israel, keep their Gulf bases, and keep supplying arms to the Saudis. Otherwise out.

Potentially, he breaks NATO. Russia and China are then enabled to bind and to expand their influence. Maybe he merges the State Department with Commerce, putting the merchant back into mercantile “diplomacy”.

With the WTO unable to make binding decisions due to US interference, strong companies and countries may bully smaller ones like ours with impunity (other than within regional bloc disciplines such as they are).

Diplomacy and international cooperation rapidly shrinks everywhere.

U.S. MSM commentariat will increasingly reflect the right-shifting voters and unregulated right wing surging social media. Democracy as the peaceful removal of the powerful gets weakened.

Who knows maybe local activists will revive the very idea of the Republic. Or New Zealand may become the last, lost, loneliest and loveliest of the strong democracies with centre- left governments.

We weren’t prepared for 2019’s losses.

2020: brace yourself.

124 comments on “What if Trump wins again? ”

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  1. Puckish Rogue 1
    29 December 2019 at 9:43 am

    Oh please, the lefts have been forecasting doom ever since Trump took office (actually before Trump took office) and yet Trump has been better than most would have thought, grudgingly no doubt

    Its always Trumps going to do this, Trumps going to do that yet hes been fairly benign. The left need to start looking at Trumps actions not words

    • Rocco Siffredi 1.1
      29 December 2019 at 10:08 am

      I'd be curious to know what people think is the worst thing he has actually done. For all the noise, I simply can't see very much that is anything like the narrative.

      "Potentially, he breaks NATO. Russia and China are then enabled to bind and to expand their influence. "

      This seems like a strange idea to me. NATO has nothing to do with China and Trump is actively challenging China's influence without recourse to a military confrontation.

      Russia is a basket case and has no power outside rusting nukes and troll farms.

      NATO without the US has almost no effective military capacity, almost all the EU nations have wound down their forces to the point of ineffectiveness.

      • Puckish Rogue 1.1.1
        29 December 2019 at 10:21 am

        "I'd be curious to know what people think is the worst thing he has actually done. For all the noise, I simply can't see very much that is anything like the narrative."

        Yeah exactly, is he any worse than Obama (spying on citizens, bombing allies), Clinton (alleged rapist), Bush (well take your pick) etc

        • Stuart Munro 1.1.1.1
          29 December 2019 at 10:51 am

          Yes he's worse. Baby jails.

          • AB 1.1.1.1.1
            29 December 2019 at 12:23 pm

            Yep – baby jails plus of course:

            • withdrawing from the Paris climate accords
            • Delivering massive tax cuts for the rich in a country where 40% of citizens couldn't manage an unexpected $400 bill
            • coup-mongering in Venezuela, Bolivia etc. (admittedly a continuation of Obama)
            • Cozying up to the murderous lunatic Jair Bolsonaro who corruptly imprisoned Lula de Silva and is now enabling the Amazon to be burned down even faster
            • pulling out of the Iran nuclear deal even though the Iranians were compliant and thereby increasing the risk of a new middle East war
            • Increasing the military budget by even more than the Pentagon actually requested, increasing the likelihood that this hardware will get used somewhere
            • stacking courts with far-right loons who will make roll-back of the Republican legacy very difficult
            • cravenly supporting everything Israel does – including a nod and a wink on the annexation of the Golan Heights
            • Providing succour to a violent domestic white supremacist movement (There were apparently "very fine people on both sides" at the Charlotesville clashes with neo-Nazis)
            • Treating the office of presidency as an opportunity to further his business interests and undermining domestic democratic integrity by soliciting a foreign government to start a corruption investigation into his opponents
            • Doing nothing about domestic gun violence – not even the weak hand-wringing of Obama
            • Gutting the EPA so that there will be fewer restraints on corporate profit-taking – expect more Flint Michigans and the poisoning of poor, black, brown and indigenous people

            And probably a whole bunch of other things. The guy is disgusting both personally and ideologically. He got into power by scratching a real itch (grotesque inequality, low-paying jobs, mountainous debt, dead-end and joyless lives, opiate addiction and feelings of hopelessness) but he will make all these things worse and then impose a structure of authoritarian control over the top to keep the lid on everything. Obama was pretty hopeless, but this guy is way beyond that. Most likely the Democratic Party will blow an historic opportunity, select the wrong person (Biden) and lose the critical rust belt states again.

        • McFlock 1.1.1.2
          29 December 2019 at 11:18 am

          Separating children from their parents and keeping zero records so the children can be stolen and adopted by US citizens is what particularly tends to make me use the term "evil". They literally keep fewer records about people in their care than farmers do about the cattle they ship off to the freezing works.

      • A 1.1.2
        29 December 2019 at 11:20 am

        I think the worst thing was around abortions.

        Overall I think he is holding up surprisingly well given the venom directed at him, his family and anyone who supports him.

        He has been predicted to win in 2020 by trends forcaster Gerald Celente and futurist Dr Richard Hames, both of which have an extremely good record of success.

        • Rocco Siffredi 1.1.2.1
          29 December 2019 at 12:40 pm

          "I think the worst thing was around abortions."

          What did he do here?

          • A 1.1.2.1.1
            29 December 2019 at 8:55 pm

            I think they were made illegal for most. Child prisoner thing was close 2nd,

            • Rocco Siffredi 1.1.2.1.1.1
              30 December 2019 at 10:31 am

              I do not believe that Trump has changed any law regarding abortion. Can you specify what he did to make abortion 'illegal for most'?

              • joe90 …
                30 December 2019 at 10:45 am

                tRump reinstated the Mexico City Policy, put special conditions on insurance cover for abortion and banned any family planning providers receiving federal funds from referring women to abortion services.

                And because a majority of women and girls seeking abortion are unable to self fund, he's on the way to putting abortion out of reach for most women

        • Macro 1.1.2.2
          29 December 2019 at 12:49 pm

          The legacy of Trump is not so much the immediate changes that he has made – and it is astonishing how little people here actually understand what they are – and they are numerable.

          The actually legacy of Trump will be the huge implications for the American legal system that will last for decades.

          As of December 20, 2019, the United States Senate has confirmed 187 Article III judges nominated by President Trump, including 2 Associate Justices of the Supreme Court of the United States, 50 judges for the United States Courts of Appeals, 133 judges for the United States District Courts, and 2 judges for the United States Court of International Trade.[2] There are currently 33 nominations to Article III courts awaiting Senate action, including 2 for the Courts of Appeals, 30 for the District Courts and 1 for the Court of International Trade.[3] There is currently 1 vacancy on the U.S. Courts of Appeals, 67 vacancies on the U.S. District Courts, 2 vacancies on the U.S. Court of International Trade,[3] and 13 announced federal judicial vacancies that will occur before the end of Trump's first term (1 for the Courts of Appeals and 12 for District Courts).[4]

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_federal_judges_appointed_by_Donald_Trump

          It needs to be understood that many of these appointments are of a far-right conservative persuasion and many have little to no experience of the judicature and have not been approved by the American Bar Association for this task.

          The effect on American society and culture will be a huge swing to the right and "conservative" ethics which will place many in real danger.

          • Rocco Siffredi 1.1.2.2.1
            29 December 2019 at 12:57 pm

            Every President makes judicial appointments, and they will be largely politically aligned with the views of the President. This is a President doing what they were elected to do.

        • millsy 1.1.2.3
          29 December 2019 at 4:33 pm

          So you support the USA becoming a theocracy with no environmental protection legislation (or labour law) then.

          Do also support the oppression of LGBT people in the USA?

    • bwaghorn 1.2
      29 December 2019 at 10:19 am

      I got asked about trump by a concerned 10 year old yesterday and my simplistic take was that the sky hasnt fallen in ,yes he'll probably get another term ,he hasnt started a war . And it wont last for ever

      • Puckish Rogue 1.2.1
        29 December 2019 at 10:27 am

        That really does my head in, I mean wheres this poor kid getting their information to be worried about in the first place?

        Don't want to sound paranoid or anything but media have a lot to answer to…

        • A 1.2.1.1
          29 December 2019 at 11:25 am

          It's deliberate media saturation and imho tantamount to treason in some cases where it is sustained and appears designed to stimulate mistrust and hate.

          • Ed1 1.2.1.1.1
            29 December 2019 at 11:53 am

            Come on . . . surely Fox News isn't that bad . . .

            • I feel love 1.2.1.1.1.1
              30 December 2019 at 8:47 am

              Puckish my then 8-9 year and her school friends knew about him before he was elected, he's the butt of a lot of jokes on YouTube, he's a bit of a cartoon figure, the way he acts and talks.

        • Cinny 1.2.1.2
          30 December 2019 at 8:58 am

          Pucky, many kids are worried about trump because he does not believe in climate change.

      • Obtrectator 1.2.2
        30 December 2019 at 12:45 pm

        Trump won't last for ever, but the rich men's mafia using him as a distraction certainly will.

    • millsy 1.3
      29 December 2019 at 10:51 am

      He is allowing religious people to impose their faith on others.

    • Drowsy M. Kram 1.4
      29 December 2019 at 10:52 am

      Self-interested Conservative/Republican/Tory [right wing] governments/presidents/prime ministers serve their masters by facilitating the concentration of wealth and power – the health and well-being of the great unwashed is a peripheral concern.

      For example, Trump (and the Natz under Key) quickly introducing tax cuts that favoured the 'the haves and the have mores', much to no one's surprise.

      "The tax law has made rich people richer, it’s made some foreign investors richer, and it hasn’t really accomplished very much else,” said Steve Wamhoff, ITEP’s director of federal tax policy. “I think this is the exact opposite of what our society needed in this time of greater inequality.""
      https://qz.com/1769421/trumps-tax-cuts-and-jobs-act-shows-poor-results-after-two-years/

      The Natz (under Key) wasted no time cutting funding for adult community education; evidence of a pattern of behaviour should be obvious to all but the closed-minded.

      "DeVos’s record is proof, they argue, that when the smoke of the Trump presidency finally clears, the substance of his legacy on policy, deregulation and stacking the courts will remain – and take far longer to repair.

      “We’ve had plenty of Republican as well as Democratic secretaries of education but none of them, even those who believed in alternatives to public education, actually tried to eviscerate public education,” said Randi Weingarten, the president of the American Federation of Teachers. “Here is someone who in her first budget tried to eliminate every single summer school programme, every single after-school programme, and who has done everything in her power to try to make it harder for us to strengthen public [sector] schools.”"
      https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/27/betsy-devos-trump-republicans-education-secretary

      • Obtrectator 1.4.1
        30 December 2019 at 12:48 pm

        Yep – a cowed and ignorant populace is what these characters want. Ever since whenever, the first thing any incoming Nat administration here did was to remove any government support for the WEA.

    • millsy 1.5
      29 December 2019 at 4:31 pm

      Donald Trump has:

      1) Rolled back what ever clean air and water legislation there is, allowing companies the pump toxic gases into the air and water into the rivers. I am picking he will probably allow lead to be stuck back into petrol as well.

      2) Has pushed for a complete ban on abortion on US soil.

      3) Is allowing people to impose their religion on others via "religous freedom legislation". This bascially allows god botherers to just refuse services to anyone because the Bible tells them so. Doctors can refuse services to LGBT people (because Trump sees them like Hitler sees the Jews). Pharmacists can also refuse to sell women birth control because they think sex is evil, and teachers can refuse to teach evolution. Also, LGBT workers can be fired at will by god bothering employers. Bascially it will unleash a huge progrom of those who do not to live by the stifiling rules laid down by that silly book.

      4) Trump will privatise bascially everything, leading to higher prices

      5) Trump wants to ban trade unions, and had laid down rules making it harder for unions to bascially exist.

      6) Trump is pardoning war criminals and egging cops on to kill innocent civilians. The messsage to USA soldiers is: You can kill, rape and plunder all you like, because I have your back. You thought My Lai was bad. Well, guess what, US personnell are going to slaughter anyone they come across in the middle east. And police officers can now officially murder any black person they feel like. In cold blood.

      7) He is tightening food stamps, medicare, medicaid, etc.

      8) He is set to strip all women of any form of individual automony.

      Why do you think that is all OK?

      • Puckish Rogue 1.5.1
        29 December 2019 at 5:25 pm

        1. As have other presidents (Democratic and Republican) yet Trump gets more attention for it.

        2. It may surprise you but theres a lot of people out there that think abortion is murder.

        3.The left were saying all that kind of before Trump was elected and it still hasn't happened.

        4. Proof please

        5. Lowest unemployment in 50 years so who really is supporting the workers

        6. Calm down Millsy you're getting a little over emotional and starting to make stuff up, this might help explain things:

        https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcSv1XmqN3RXScIo35nv1bStUUN9zDrynccjyEX3sNZbezxZ9fqV

        7. Hes in the republican party is it a big surprise?

        8. See 6.

        On the other hand:
        Bill Clinton, allegedly, raped women,

        Obama, allegedly,set the IRS on conservative groups,

        Ask Carter Page about being spied on

        Why do you think that is all OK?

        • millsy 1.5.1.1
          29 December 2019 at 6:56 pm

          Good to see you want to end access to abortion and contraception to women, and force them to have babies. Just like your little fictional sky fairy told you to.

          God isnt real you know. Sex is actually quite enjoyable. So are women who dress in nice clothes.

          At least Santa didnt have entire bearaucratic organisations set up in his name.

      • joe90 1.5.2
        29 December 2019 at 6:09 pm

        9) Presided over an era of cronyism and an ever expanding swamp.

        At the halfway mark of President Donald Trump’s first term, his administration has hired a lobbyist for every 14 political appointments made, welcoming a total of 281 lobbyists on board, a ProPublica and Columbia Journalism Investigations analysis shows.

        With a combination of weakened rules and loose enforcement easing the transition to government and back to K Street, Trump’s swamp is anything but drained. The number of lobbyists who have served in government jobs is four times more than the Obama administration had six years into office. And former lobbyists serving Trump are often involved in regulating the industries they worked for.

        Even government watchdogs who’ve long monitored the revolving door say that its current scale is a major shift from previous administrations. It’s a “staggering figure,” according to Virginia Canter, ethics chief counsel for the D.C.-based legal nonprofit Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington. “It suggests that lobbyists see themselves as more effective in furthering their clients’ special interests from inside the government rather than from outside.”

        https://www.propublica.org/article/we-found-a-staggering-281-lobbyists-whove-worked-in-the-trump-administration?

        • I feel love 1.5.2.1
          30 December 2019 at 8:53 am

          He's pardoned one war criminal, the guy who ordered the deaths of the motorcyclist civilians, there's a doco about it. The story is contentious and the guy should have got man slaughter instead of murder, the story is the army wanted to make a scapegoat of this guy, but he was charged with warcrimes and murder nonetheless, and Trump pardoned him.

    • Bill 1.6
      30 December 2019 at 9:53 am

      The left need to start looking at Trumps actions not words.

      More important than that are the actual policies. But the radical centre (I think Ad refers to that as "the left") doesn't want to look at his policies, which are, let's be honest, simply an extension of the framework laid in place by Clinton, Bush, Obama…

      The sky didn't fall in in 2016. The sky won't fall in 2020 if he's re-elected.

      My question around his possible re-election is what acknowledgement will be given to contributory factors like the blanket "blind eye" on his policies in favour of pushing the Russia Hoax; the infantile fixation on his various texts, traits and verbal gaffs, (because calling people "stupid" by association is such a killer strategy); and the utterly idiotic dash to impeachment on possibly the weakest of all available fronts.

      If the centre manages to game the Democratic primaries such that Biden pops up as the Democratic Party nominee (and they sure as hell are trying), then yeah…Trump's in.

  2. Dennis Frank 2
    29 December 2019 at 10:06 am

    "By the end of 2020, CBP says it expects to have completed 450 miles of "new border wall system" – which includes steel-bollard barriers, all-weather roads, lighting, enforcement cameras and other technology – and to have started to build an additional 59 miles." https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46824649

    In 2016 Trump campaigned to build a wall along the Mexican border, and that's around 2000 miles, so he can't campaign next year on the basis of achieving that goal.

    Since the Dems think he's a witch, he ought to campaign against a demon. Just so everyone knows mythic ancient entities are the flavour of the month. So he has to wait till the Dems select the demon they think can defeat the witch.

    • Rocco Siffredi 2.1
      29 December 2019 at 10:15 am

      "In 2016 Trump campaigned to build a wall along the Mexican border, and that's around 2000 miles, so he can't campaign next year on the basis of achieving that goal."

      He can campaign on delivering a large amount of wall, against very significant resistance, and if people vote for him, he will keep progressing it. That is a strong position for a politician seeking re-election.

  3. Stuart Munro 3
    29 December 2019 at 10:48 am

    If Russia is off the leash again, Saudi will likely fall. Lots of fireworks in the sandpit as locals contend for control of the holy mosques. Oil price goes bananas, triggering the mother of all GFCs. Putin cleans up by being a kleptopetroligarch, but US in recession. Chinese cut a deal with Russia trading discounted US debt for oil.

    And in NZ – international tourism is basically off the board. So are fee-paying students. Oil prices require significant restructuring of agriculture – Clydesdale bubble as speculators put their badfinger in.Minor surge in bunker construction in Queenstown. Sugar bag years without the sugar.

  4. Sacha 4
    29 December 2019 at 1:14 pm

    Chump needs to stay alive long enough to win another election. Pence is more of a worry.

  5. Martin C 5
    29 December 2019 at 1:47 pm

    Labour loses next election.

    Simon Bridges & Nasty Party doubles down

  6. RedLogix 6
    29 December 2019 at 2:42 pm

    I'd struggle to vote for any of the current crop of Dem candidates except Tulsi Gabbard or Andrew Yang; and neither of them are going to be allowed anywhere near the top spot. As with Clinton, the Democrat machine has already selected for Biden … what the voters want be damned. And up against Trump, Biden is dog tucker.

    Domestically Trump hasn't done much that’s wildly different to what any other Rep President might have done in the current era. He's crude, chaotic and aggravating, and you have to wonder why an nation as large as the USA couldn't find someone more fit for the highest office in the land.

    Globally however Trump is changing everything. By virtue of being the last man standing at the end of WW2 the USA became the 'world policeman'. It was an odd sort of hegemony, it was not one they really wanted, nor one they gained much from. From a resource and trade perspective the USA doesn't really need to trade much with the rest of the world; isolationism is their natural default setting. The so called Washington Consensus has been under stress since 9/11, but Trump is now leading the charge to the exits. Look at it like this, just as Britain wants out from Europe, the USA is now looking to exit from the world. This is what Trump really means by making "American Great Again", … at least it's what his support base hears when he says it.

    This is why renegotiating NAFTA was Trump's big priority … he wants to cement Mexico (and Latin America) as the US's growing and most important trading partner, and ensuring Canada was kept from being too competitive. The pull back from NATO is also intentional; Europe can sort out it's own relationship with Russia. Australia and New Zealand are surplus to requirements.

    The global rules based order that, sponsored and largely paid for by the USA, is rapidly expiring. Another Trump term will make our exposed position painfully clear.

    • Ad 6.1
      29 December 2019 at 7:16 pm

      Agree.

      Regional trading bloc rules are a much thinner protection than globally enforced protections. We're lucky we belong to the biggest one.

      Trump has done a really good job renegotiating NAFTA.

    • Blazer 6.2
      29 December 2019 at 9:43 pm

      'the USA became the 'world policeman'..astounded that you buy into this b/s.

      As said..'the U.S has no friends..only interests'…

      The overseas bases (800 plus) the U.S has maintained are definitely NOT for any altruistic reasons.

      Trump realises the cost is not justified by the return in this political climate.

      His 'fortress America' instincts will be replicated throughout the globe.

      The Fed has been captured by Wall St and their 'products' have distorted any parity in supply and demand of commodities.

      Japan shows that this magic show can run for decades….pass the parcel..until the music..stops.

      Thanks Milton Friedman and Alan Greenspan!

  7. adam 7
    29 December 2019 at 3:41 pm

    I do love how you think the left is fubar Ad.

    Forgetting

    France

    The Kurds

    Venezuela

    Actually the whole open rebellion in South America

    Africa socialist experiments

    The only thing in retreat is liberalism, and thank God for that.

    I've said it before your confusion over what is Socialism and what is Liberalism is quite disturbing.

    • Ad 7.1
      29 December 2019 at 4:12 pm

      It's a post projecting the consequences of a Trump win in 2020.

      Go for it if you want a survey of global activism. But only a swooning Marxist acolyte would say that the left are resurgent globally.

      My cure for your definitional worries is: do more election campaigns.

    • pat 7.2
      29 December 2019 at 5:26 pm

      the Kurds are socio/politically left? and what socialist experiments in Africa?…Venezuela is a failed state, or fubar if you prefer…an odd list

      • Bill 7.2.1
        30 December 2019 at 10:22 am

        I dunno Pat, it's not really such an odd list. Might seem odd from some perspectives, but….(rant coming up 🙂 )

        when you take into account the fact that the left is being railed against, not just by the right, but by the radical centre and all of it's structural allies (eg – pop media), then persistence (Rojava, Venezuela) and increasing penetration of popular consciousness (Corbyn, Sanders, Yellow Vests etc)…and when you take into account that over time the centre has had to continually double down on it's assault to the point where we are to believe that up is down, in is out and black is white (the Russia Hoax, the bullshit charges of terrorist sympathiser thrown at Corbyn and the absurd charges of anti-semitism thrown at both him and Sanders, the suggestion that the Yellow Vests are an expression of a quasi fascist politics in France, the desperate anointing of Guaido as El Presidente of Venezuela and the medieval siege/blockade imposed on the country, the blanking of important and positive left wing news (popular uprisings in Lebanon, Algeria, Sudan…): the mischaracterisation of dangerous stuff as 'pro democracy' (Hong Kong)…the media blanking of Gabbard and Sanders….

        • pat 7.2.1.1
          30 December 2019 at 10:36 am

          Dont deny the MSM are pro liberal agenda (as they ever were) and there is political sabotage of any anti liberal government from both within and without re Venezuela (as there ever was) but there is a number of claims my comment was questioning and as far as i can see none of them have been addressed…

          Are the Kurds socio politicly Left? I suspect with any population there will be a spectrum and until such time as they have a self governing state we wont know what form their governance will take.

          I can think of no African state that currently practices any form of Socialism but am happy have examples bought to my attention

          Venezuela is a failed state….evidenced by 20% of the population leaving the country as refugees.

          If someone wants to claim a future for 'Left" (whatever they think that means) politics some better examples may be in order….or at least ones that exist .

          • Bill 7.2.1.1.1
            30 December 2019 at 11:04 am

            Rojava (I believe "kurds" was a shorthand Adam used) is extremely progressive/left. They don't want a self governing state btw. On the other hand, if Adam was referring to Iraq and Kurdish aspirations for the establishment of a Kurdistan, then yeah….not particularly much of anything beyond a traditional punt for power/self determination.

            I know 5/8ths of sfa about African countries, but the unreported/under reported up risings in Sudan might have potential on the progressive front.

            Venezuela is persisting in spite of the blockade imposed by the US. I'd see that as a sign of lasting integrity, not failure (ie – I view it a bit like how I might view Cuban resistance and persistence).

            Asking for examples of "left" that fit with traditional metrics of 'success' – eg, government control of a state apparatus or whatnot, is asking for an oxymoron to be brought into existence.

            • pat 7.2.1.1.1.1
              30 December 2019 at 11:12 am

              "Asking for examples of "left" that fit with traditional metrics of 'success' – eg, government control of a state apparatus or whatnot, is asking for an oxymoron to be brought into existence."

              That is what the average punter will judge it by….and it is the average punter that make up the numbers required.

              • Bill …
                30 December 2019 at 11:26 am

                So if we allow the concept of "left" to be extremely plastic, we might ask for examples of statism or, given the extremity of today's politics, examples of social democratic governance, yes?

                • pat …
                  30 December 2019 at 11:43 am

                  lol….the concept of 'left' is almost fluid.

                  But yes, statism or social democracy if you prefer….nothing wrong with exploring anarchism etc but if the goal is to persuade a majority to accept the benefits of a community based system then it needs to something they at least can recognise/imagine…..of course some may suggest that persuasion is inadequate but I am not one of those.

                  • Bill …
                    30 December 2019 at 5:53 pm

                    if the goal is to persuade a majority to accept the benefits of a community based system then it needs to something they at least can recognise/imagine

                    Rojava then. Quite a lot written on the politics there. Quite a lot of disinformation too – but critical thinking 101 goes a long way, aye?

                    Edit. I don’t usually post wiki links, but the Rojava page is surprisingly informative and contains a plethora of links, some of which are worth following.

                    • pat …
                      30 December 2019 at 6:37 pm

                      a quick skim shows much of interest (will go a little deeper later) but heres the problem…..I have a number of children (and their partners) and when considering such I run everything by their ruler and what I have discovered (surprisingly) is that the interest is not there…. they are pretty typical and I suspect that in the west (particularly) until such time as it all unravels the interest will not increase…and without that compulsion the status quo will remain.

                      I'd like to think that when that time comes the choice would be of a "left" persuasion but am realistic enough to admit its not guaranteed.

      • adam 7.2.2
        30 December 2019 at 10:22 am

        So Venezuela has not fallen over, no matter how hard the right have tried to destroy the country. The country is being hammered and yet it is still not a failed state. Get you head out of the clouds pat – MSM are lying. People are feed, electricity is running and daily life rolls on.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Union_Party_(Syria) the people that trump sold out to the Turks. But they get no support from the so called left in the west – and still survive. Because the west has no left, except france that is and parts of Greece.

        • Rocco Siffredi 7.2.2.1
          30 December 2019 at 10:36 am

          "So Venezuela has not fallen over, no matter how hard the right have tried to destroy the country. The country is being hammered and yet it is still not a failed state."

          I'm curious as to your definition of a 'failed state'. A country from which 4 million people have fled and inflation running off the scale seems less than optimal. Given it's sitting on vast amounts of oil, it's quite an achievement.

          • adam 7.2.2.1.1
            30 December 2019 at 10:50 am

            So not being able to sell that oil, and the POMES stealing their gold reserves was not enough for you?

            Libya comes to mind as a failed state.

        • pat 7.2.2.2
          30 December 2019 at 10:50 am

          30 December 2019 at 10:36 am

          both France and Greece are members of EU….whatever the national political leaning they are constrained by that fact.

  8. xanthe 8
    29 December 2019 at 7:05 pm

    Unfortunatly i cannot see any other outcome but a Trump victory. Whoever dreamed up the plan to throw everything into an impeachment that could never ever be anything more than a divisive symbol was an idiot!

    The only way that the democrats could take it now would be (as in NZ) to drop a charismatic appealing candidate in late into the campaign. Thats possible. Biden is not!

    • Rocco Siffredi 8.1
      30 December 2019 at 10:37 am

      " Whoever dreamed up the plan to throw everything into an impeachment that could never ever be anything more than a divisive symbol was an idiot!"

      Don't you think they are doing this because they already knew they were going to lose?

      • Bill 8.1.1
        30 December 2019 at 10:51 am

        They did it a) because they are idiots and b) because they don't want to look in the mirror acknowledge their complicity in delivering the world Trump and c) because, when Pelosi finally delivers those papers to Congress, Sanders is out of the campaigning loop for as long as the trial lasts.

        • xanthe 8.1.1.1
          30 December 2019 at 11:53 am

          " because, when Pelosi finally delivers those papers to Congress, Sanders is out of the campaigning loop for as long as the trial lasts."

          can you explain/expand this a bit for me?

          • Bill 8.1.1.1.1
            30 December 2019 at 1:06 pm

            Senators must sit through the process. And for Sanders, that means not being out on the campaign trail.

      • xanthe 8.1.2
        30 December 2019 at 11:52 am

        "Don't you think they are doing this because they already knew they were going to lose?"

        Thats a distinct possibility.

  9. millsy 9
    29 December 2019 at 7:51 pm

    Further to the above, I think *anyone* who has religious beliefs are fundamentally unfit to serve in either health, teaching or science sectors.

    In my world, only atheists and humanists would be allowed to be GP's. This is to ensure that women and LGBT people have access to the care they need.

    Refusing to provide medical care to someone based on faith is a fundamental breach of human decency.

    • pat 9.1
      29 December 2019 at 7:56 pm

      thats a serious proposition?

      • millsy 9.1.1
        29 December 2019 at 7:59 pm

        Yes.

        I am kinda getting over the bible bashers and their bullshit now, and we need to start resorting to extreme measures to cut this cancer out of society.

        Women, the LGBT community, scientists, those who choose to live their life a little bit differently, etc will thank us in the long run.

        • pat 9.1.1.1
          29 December 2019 at 8:11 pm

          so anyone of faith barred…that may have a big impact on the publics health and education…particularly in Muslim countries or the Pacific Islands for that matter….not every society is predominantly secular…and even those that are will have a significant proportion of people in those occupations who are of one faith or another…be careful what you wish for.

        • Rocco Siffredi 9.1.1.2
          30 December 2019 at 10:38 am

          "I am kinda getting over the bible bashers and their bullshit now, and we need to start resorting to extreme measures to cut this cancer out of society."

          Isn't this hate speech?

  10. lprent 10
    29 December 2019 at 7:56 pm

    Personally and looking mostly at our situation, I think that the biggest thing is that Trump has made America impossible to trust as any kind of ally.

    The foreign policy of the last 35 years from the US has largely been chaotic but at least vaguely understandable given their ridiculous internal politics (think of the deliberate lying over WMD in Iraq).

    Their current international policies resemble silent slapstick by Buster Keaton more than anything rational. Which is what the Trump administration resembles as well. Anything for a short- term fix. No coherence. Totally unreliable. Even worse than their domestic policies

    My guess is that having let the lunatics run the asylum makes it look like a permanent solution. It is just going to make sure that few of their allies are going to be relying on or supportive of them in the future.

  11. infused 11
    29 December 2019 at 8:18 pm

    hes going to easy. lots to come out about the cia lying to wire tap.

    • joe90 11.1
      29 December 2019 at 8:23 pm

      the cia lying to wire tap.

      Do tell…

      • infused 11.1.1
        29 December 2019 at 8:56 pm

        go google. dems are up to their eye balls in shit hence the second impeachment. its all going to spill out after xmas and trump will get an easy win

      • Bill 11.1.2
        30 December 2019 at 10:39 am

        They repeatedly lied about Page in their submissions to the FISA court so they could get warrants (ie wire taps). That. and they knew the Steele dossier was a crock of shit, but hammed it up for their FISA applications anyway (before pushing it on the public to serve as the foundation of the Russian Hoax).

        As an aside, it's kinda fun to hear Maddow and others on Russia Gate these days 🙂

        https://archive.is/nzPkH

        • Billy 11.1.2.1
          30 December 2019 at 11:52 am

          What is intriguing to me is that the Russiagate propaganda network is the same network that is being used to argue for censorship of social media in the US and NZ.

          Intriguing, because it goes to the point that framing exercises – some that actually frame people – are inherently political and so should be treated warily and with suspicion and cynicism. Certainly these very politically biased groups and their funders should come under very close scrutiny. This has yet to happen in sleepy old NZ.

          A vote against propoganda is not a vote for Trump. If it is things have gone terribly wrong.

          • Bill 11.1.2.1.1
            30 December 2019 at 1:15 pm

            When people who identify as left or progressive place their faith in the word of spooks….

            And when those self same spooks wash through newsrooms as "analysts"…

            And fauxgressives point to the impartiality and supposed integrity of the orgs they get their news from…

            And throw in Bellingcat and a dozen other news sources that are presented as "independent" while being in the pay of such like The Atlantic Council…who in turn lead charges to war and against "fake news" …

            • Stuart Munro 11.1.2.1.1.1
              30 December 2019 at 1:28 pm

              And throw in Bellingcat and a dozen other news sources that are presented as "independent" while being in the pay of such like The Atlantic Council…who in turn lead charges to war and against "fake news"

              When you demonstrate equivalent skepticism of Russian funded sources you'll have the beginnings of an argument.

              • Bill …
                30 December 2019 at 1:45 pm

                lol – obviously you have a list of "Russian funded sources" that I've argued should be taken at face value, right? I mean….I can't believe you're simply gaslighting, or justifying treating tainted sources as objective on the basis of some "whatabouterism" 🙂

                • Stuart Munro …
                  30 December 2019 at 3:39 pm

                  We hardly need a list Bill, you even echoed the ridiculous Craig Murray.

                  Bellingcat stand on their record, which includes catching out the US once or twice. And they're open source – having nothing to hide.

                  I do like your Putin reference though: place their faith in the word of spooks… – it's certainly not a practice that increases one's gravitas.

                  • Billy …
                    30 December 2019 at 5:40 pm

                    Bill has provided evidencing links for his claims. I see only vague assertions from you, Stuart, at least in respect of your shadowy Russian interference claims…

                    But amused that most of the authorities you HAVE referenced have the same IC adjacent funder/s 🙂

                    Follow the money and it's fascinating what you find!

                    Who would have thought, for example, that if you followed the “right to trans self-ID” funding you would discover pecuniary interests invested in the application of digital self-ID? Why? Presenting it as a “right” makes the need for self-ID a moot point, a given, water under the bridge, perhaps (it shouldn’t be)? One can only speculate because nobody in the lazy, incompetent, too-cool-to-be- over-interested press has bothered to investigate.

                  • Bill …
                    30 December 2019 at 5:49 pm

                    Gas lighting it is. Fucking tedious.

                    • Billy …
                      30 December 2019 at 6:20 pm

                      Bill, here's a tidbit for you:

                      The (unproven) evidence provided to NZ's Justice Committee hearings on foreign interference in respect of Russia came from the same dodgy IC-front, "thinktank" source that provided Hillary Clinton with the "evidence" she used to smear Tusli Gabbard not so long ago. Presented to the committee as fact.

                      When you realize that what goes on here is just an extension of what goes on in the US in respect of these influence operations they become quite easy to spot.

                      And it becomes quite a serious matter if those networks display bias towards this or that political party in NZ; the sort of thing that should be in front of the Justice Committee.

                      Vladimir, Xi, eat your heart out.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram …
                    31 December 2019 at 1:49 pm

                    A relevant opinion piece; is Johnstone's critique of the OPCW hierarchy, Bellingcat and the MSM justified (in this instance)? Chlorine gaslighting!

                    Francesca posted news of this document release (OPCW-DOUMA – Release Part 3) on OM a couple of weeks ago. https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-16-12-2019/#comment-1673641

                    "The emails feature multiple Newsweek editors telling [journalist] Haddad that they would not publish a word about the OPCW leaks for two reasons: (1) because no other outlets were reporting on them, and (2) because the US government-funded narrative management firm Bellingcat had published a laughably bogus article explaining why the leaks weren't newsworthy. Haddad has since resigned from Newsweek."

                    "So this narrative being spun by the US government-funded propagandists at Bellingcat is bogus from top to bottom, but what's infuriating is that we already know who editors in news rooms are going to listen to."

                    https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL1912/S00158/medias-scandalous-silence-on-latest-wikileaks-drops.htm

  12. Sabine 12
    29 December 2019 at 8:43 pm

    It actually does not matter if the orange excrement wins or not.

    The real president is the Turtle from Kentucky, the leader of the majority in the Senate.

    IF the democrats could win the Senate and remove the Turtle the orange pile of shit could be as ineffective a president as was Obama.

    I would also like to point out that the orange turd is at the mercy of the turtle with the impeachment trial (even if his supporters are unhappy about hte wasted impeachment), And once McConnell does not need the hand to hold the pen to sign the laws i would not be surprised if it is the republicans that will depose of the orange heep of shit.

    Popcorn and beer for all of us, the show must go on and it will be entertaining as.

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