Where to now for the Greens?

Written By: - Date published: 11:55 am, September 24th, 2017 - 153 comments
Categories: election 2017, electoral commission, greens, james shaw, labour, MMP, nz first - Tags:

Before we get into it, can we please start with this reminder about what it’s all about?

The election, not what we had hoped for but not an unmitigated disaster either. We’ve got a few weeks of limbo to see what settles out, but there is a modicum of potential here for a centre left government. There are other important things to talk about too, more on that at the end.

Let’s get this out of the way first. Whatever reckons people have about what the Greens should do, they won’t support National to form government. They pledged to change the government by signing the MoU over a year ago, they’ve campaigned all year on this, and they’ve committed to not going with National. Shaw recommitted to a Labour-led government last night.

There’s really not any other assurances they can give, but as Russell Norman pointed out on RNZ last night, any deal that the Green Party want to do has to go to the membership. I’m mentioning all this because there are RW trolls and MSM reporters pushing the idea that it could happen. It’s a needless distraction to be put aside.

The election result currently looks like this. It doesn’t include the Special votes (overseas voters, people voting outside their electorate, and the Advance votes where people enrolled at the same time). They’re due by October 7 and usually drop the National % a bit and increase the Left’s.

Seats
Greens 7
Labour 45
NZF 9
Centre Left total 61
National 58
Act 1
RW total 59

On the basis of that and the impending Specials, James Shaw’s election night speech went bold and said that Labour, the Greens and NZF should form a government.

It was a delightfully pivotal moment. The MSM had spent the evening going on about how National were winning, and Lefties were all getting pretty glum, and then Shaw stepped up and said let’s do this. It shouldn’t come as too much of a surprise, because despite it being right that Labour and the Greens campaigned to govern alone, this was always the most likely outcome – that Peters would be kingmaker. But it was good to see the pushback to the establishment’s dominant and frankly FPP-ish narrative.

Shaw,

The current indications are that the three opposition parties command a majority of votes once the Specials and Overseas votes will have been counted. New Zealanders have voted for change.

He’s speaking to Jacinda Ardern today to look at how to form a new government for NZ. In the speech he then went straight to sending a message to Winston Peters about the common ground that the Greens and NZF have – zero carbon economy by 2050, reinvesting in and revitalising the rail network and forestry as well as regional economies. To which we can add some other key things like Pike River (I’m really hoping someone draws up a comprehensive list today). Shaw is saying now is the time to put the differences aside and work together. There’s enough there to work with then, but maybe there is need for caution too.

The Greens have some options. One is to enter into the 3 way coalition with Labour and NZF. That will depend on what the deal is and especially on what Peters wants. There will be some no go areas for the Greens (and Labour) e.g. I cannot imagine the Greens even contemplating a referendum on the Māori Seats. So what happens if Peters brings things to the table that the Greens (or Labour) can’t agree to?

Another option is an agreement to support a L/NZF coalition on Confidence and Supply and to stay out of government themselves. They could also agree to abstain. If this meant that it freed the Greens up to vote for or against the government as they chose on legislation other than monetary supply, and to speak out on the things that are important to them, then that sounds like it also has potential. If the Greens want change not power at any costs, then there are other ways of working than coalitions with too many compromises.

The third option is that if Peters’ bottom lines are unacceptable, the Greens (and Labour) remain in opposition and National get a fourth term with an unstable coalition partner that may or may not last. The Greens are then free to say whatever they like whenever they like. Not ideal at all and I can’t see the Greens proposing this so it would come down to Peters, but it’s important to understand that the Green Party’s core values aren’t for sale and they are a very effective opposition.

There’s a bit of talk already from some MSM pundits about how it’s not on for a NZ government to have a Prime Minister whose party only has 36% of the vote. This is daft, but bears examining because it’s basically saying that MMP is supposed to be a big party with one or two minor parties i.e. a duopoly.

For a bit of international context this got posted by regular TS commenter Swordfish a while back. It shows the second largest party in Sweden forming a coalition government after the 2006 General Election,

Centre-Left Bloc

Social Democrats 35%(Largest Party)

Left Party 6% (Sixth)

Green 5% (Seventh)

Centre-Right Bloc

Moderate 26% (Second Largest Party)

Centre 8% (Third)

Liberal People’s Party 8% (Fourth)

Christian Democrats 7% (Fifth)

Moderates form Centre-Right Coalition Govt

You can read about the actual conventions that NZ has on forming government here. It’s not what some are saying, and I think this is a good opportunity for NZers to educate themselves on this important constitutional matter and push back against the attempt at hegemony.

So that’s government. But it’s been a sea change election. The Greens broke the spell on welfare and that’s not going to go back in the box. Whatever government is formed, it will have to deal with this change. Metiria Turei won’t be in parliament, but if she picks up where she left off then there will be one formidable agent of change working from the community as well as the groundswell of support to transform welfare in NZ.

The other thing here is this,

We got a reprieve, of sorts. It might last two weeks or it might last 3 years. It’s not a win though, it’s just some space to do the real mahi in. The Left have got some hard thinking ahead of them.

And as always this,

https://twitter.com/BMHayward/status/911548373622296576

That’s both the ongoing failings of the MSM, and the reminder that climate change is here, now, and that it too won’t be put aside. There’s only so long we can keep pretending it’s not happening. But here too is potential. If as George Monbiot says, the great sweeping changes of the past century have been about the dominating and inspiring stories, and the traditional left wing story isn’t enough to turn the tide, what is it the story now that we want to tell about NZ and ourselves that will make a difference?

153 comments on “Where to now for the Greens?”

  1. BM 1

    The greens at 5.9% are on the brink of going out, Jacinda Ardern has taken most of your voters, while Ardern is Leader the greens won’t be getting any votes from disgruntled and unhappy Labour voters.

    Arden has stolen your thunder, your policies and your purpose

    Unless the Greens change strategy, you won’t survive 2020.

    • Carolyn_nth 1.1

      After the specials, the GP will be above 6%.

      And NZ First has taken the Nats and ACT thunder – so where to for ACT and the neoliberals over the next 3 years?

      • BM 1.1.1

        You don’t know that most specials could go Labour because of Jacindamania and not Green, you might actually find the Greens get knocked out of parliament.

        • Andre 1.1.1.1

          Here’s a quick math exercise for you: The Greens now have 126,995 of 2,169,802 total votes cast (5.853%). if the Greens get literally none of the special votes, how many special votes would there have to be to reduce the Green percentage from 5.9% to 4.999%?

        • Incognito 1.1.1.2

          If there are 400,000 special votes (probably less) and the Green Party would receive zero special votes their overall percentage might drop just under 5%.

          So, what is it: scaremongering or wishful thinking on your behalf?

          Edit: snap Andre!

        • Rae 1.1.1.3

          Well I know for an absolute fact they will get at least one

        • cleangreen 1.1.1.4

          BM = Boo Moo.

          Don’t cry’ ” did your boyfriend leave you?”

          Like the oilworker said to Steven Segal in the movie “On Deadly Ground” (The tale of another dirty oil baron like your Nats’ mates.)

          https://ffilms.org/on-deadly-ground-1994/

    • weka 1.2

      One of the more tedious things of the next few weeks is going to be this kind of bullshit astroturfing. The Greens are back in parliament, there’s no reason to assume they won’t build their vote over the next 3 years, your comment looks like wishful thinking.

      I am curious though. If more than 5.9% is on the brink of going out, what % would be assumed to be safe?

      • BM 1.2.1

        What voter demographics are the greens going to build their vote from?the green vote increased purely because of the many disgruntled Labour voters.

        Once Ardern appeared they dropped you guys like a hot potato and went back home

        While she remains that voter bloc is no more, so where else do the greens get votes from?

        Another issue the Greens are going to face is that you won’t get any publicity it’s going to be all about Arden and Peters, which will probably finish you guys off especially if the greens decide to sit outside of government and make up the numbers.

        • weka 1.2.1.1

          I think the Greens will naturally pick up left wing voters again because Labour are still very much in centre-left mode. If Labour truly adopt current GP policy, then that frees up the Greens to develop new policy that takes NZ further left. That Ardern’s Labour centred on environmental issues this election is due to the Greens. They want change not power. The ability to shift NZ left on the environment and ending poverty is a key reason for them to be in parliament. I don’t see that influence changing.

          Something like 45% of a pre-election poll said they would be sad to see the Greens leave parliament. Hell, there’s all these National dudes wanting a bluegreen coalition, lol. Like I said, your comment was not very substantial and you still haven’t said what % would mean the GP were safe in parliament.

          “Once Ardern appeared they dropped you guys like a hot potato and went back home”

          While I think this is a big factor, I’ve not seen any credible analysis that demonstrates where exactly the votes went and why. There were far more things going on than just Ardern.

          “Another issue the Greens are going to face is that you won’t get any publicity it’s going to be all about Arden and Peters, which will probably finish you guys off especially if the greens decide to sit outside of government and make up the numbers.”

          A reminder that I’m not the Greens.

        • Tracey 1.2.1.2

          This is MMP. At 5% or win 1 seat and you get a voice. Seymours is insanely loud for a rep of .5% of voters.

          Greens are still a solid core of supporters over 5%. They have NEVER sought to wag the dog. Neither has MP. Seymour gets way more for ACT than .5% represents. NZF wag the dog… historically speaking

          Time to talk about maturity in politics. And it is all coming from Shaw at the moment.

          • Rae 1.2.1.2.1

            Shaw is impressive.
            Shoot me down, but I see Greens, TOP and MP could form one super modern, forward thinking party.

          • Carolyn_nth 1.2.1.2.2

            ACT is GONE! Blinglish says he doesn’t want them in government.

            • Incognito 1.2.1.2.2.1

              It is almost certain that ACT will have an MP for the next three years; after that, who knows …

              ACT is highly like to vote with National or abstain and not likely to vote against – there must be some actual voting stats somewhere.

              David Seymour opted to take on responsibilities as Parliamentary Under-Secretary in the previous coalition government with National. So, all in all, I don’t think ACT will shed crocodile tears about being ‘excluded’ from government by National. After all, National is the reason why ACT is still around in the first place.

          • mikesh 1.2.1.2.3

            It’s possible, I think, that Seymour might become an overhang after the specials are counted. It could be interesting if National pick up another seat, which would give National/ACT 61 seats in a 121 seat Parliament.

            • In Vino 1.2.1.2.3.1

              No. The Epsom dirty voters will still try to pull the same ACT victory next time because they know it still gives National that extra seat..

              Left wingers in Epsom have to vote dirty deal (for National man) to squeeze ACT out. Otherwise, ACT will remain as an ugly wart on the face of democracy.

      • SpaceMonkey 1.2.2

        Exactly…for 3 more years of a National led Government and more people will be looking at Greens and NZ First more seriously… and maybe TOP if Gareth can drag himself away… and Labour if they be a bit braver with their policies.

    • Booker 1.3

      If that’s your assessment of the Greens, what do you say about NZF then? Frankly, 7 something percent isn’t far off falling below the 5% threshold, and if Winnie isn’t around for the next election, is there really enough policy, recognition or momentum for NZF to keep going without him?

      • BM 1.3.1

        NZ First will be gone once Peters retires.

        The problem for the Greens is that Ardern has made them irrelevant, she’s done the climate change speech, she’s pushing public transport in a big way.

        There’s no longer any reason for an environmentally focused left winger to vote Green.

        I know this won’t happen because the Greens seem to function like some religious cult, but the only avenue left to remain relevant is to have the ability to work both sides of the fence, you get environmental policy no matter who wins.

        That way you can pick up votes from both sides and you’d probably end up with something like 15% of the vote.

        Never happen though which is a shame, a real opportunity going begging.

        • Andre 1.3.1.1

          I’ve long thought it might work for the Greens to split.

          One part would be the environment focused grouping that could choke down working with the Nats, and that might pull some blue-green support.

          The other grouping would be those focused on social justice that could hoover up the emo progressives that think the current Greens are closet neoliberals.

          I could see both parts getting a 6 or 7% core support as viable long term parties. Maybe if Metiria remains active and keen to get back into Parliament she might lead a movement like that.

          • BM 1.3.1.1.1

            That’s probably the best long-term option for the Greens at the moment they’re looking a bit rudderless and pointless.

            • Incognito 1.3.1.1.1.1

              You must be joking!? The Green Party is more embedded in values and has more sense of purpose than any other party here in NZ. That includes Labour with its Kiwi Dream and National with its Brighter Future.

              • In Vino

                Agreed. BM is wishfully dreaming. He is right in saying that NZ First may go when Peters leaves. But he is maliciously misunderestimating (hat-tip to George Dubya) the Greens, unless he is foolishly ignorant.

          • Psycho Milt 1.3.1.1.2

            One part would be the environment focused grouping that could choke down working with the Nats…

            I’ve yet to see anyone explain how that would work. National’s core constituency places a high value on business models that involve pushing environmental costs onto others, not least future generations. Green environmentalists want the opposite of that. What work would these two fundamentally opposed groups do together?

            • BM 1.3.1.1.2.1

              Flag the whole ideology bollocks and just work on policy.

              Promote organic farmers
              Recycling
              Enviroschools
              Promote and teach more environmentally friendly farming practices
              Clean technology
              Electric cars
              Public transport
              Healthy living
              Conservation

              etc

              All this stuff could be easily worked out and agreed to by National.
              Greens just need to stop acting like a religious group and start acting like a political party.

              • Incognito

                Flag the whole ideology bollocks and just work on policy.

                We need more value-based ideology, not less!

                Political pragmatism and expediency is anathema to a healthy democracy and progressive society and National is the textbook example of this type of politics.

                • BM

                  When your party is hovering around the death knell of 5% it may be time to pull your head out of your arse and realise it’s you who’s doing to wrong.

                  • In Vino

                    Can you please explain what ‘doing to wrong’ means? And I don’t know of any party that is hovering around a death-knell. Green vote likely to rise on Oct 2, I gather…

                  • Incognito

                    You mean become more ‘pragmatic’, sacrifice or water-down a few values and principles, tell a lie or two, spread fear about your opponent, etc? I prefer to have my head up my arse, thank you. And no, I am not an orthodox dogmatic purist, just somebody for whom values mean something more than ‘rules of the game’ that can be bent, broken, or brushed off.

              • The Greens are already more than ready to work with National on those things. No dismantling of the party required. Now, in future, and throughout the last nine years, the moment National has a road-to-Damascus moment and decides to stop treating the environment like an infinite-capacity rubbish bin, the Greens stand ready to offer their full support. Funnily enough, no opportunity to assist has presented itself…

            • Andre 1.3.1.1.2.2

              Sure that’s how part of National’s core constituency thinks.

              But there’s also others that are attracted to the Nats low tax, business efficiency mantra that can be persuaded by the sound economic arguments for environmental policies.

              For them, arguing the benefits of less pollution, healthier population, jobs and economic efficiencies in shifting to renewable energy are all arguments they might be open to. And if they were persuaded they’ll be willing to argue it with other Nat factions.

              There’s yet others whose business models work a lot better in a clean environment, so they’re already feeling the tension of arguing with the cost externalisers.

              What all the different flavours of Nat I’ve come across have in common is they’re definitely against feeling like they’re paying for poor people. So when parts of a political platform that can be painted that way become prominent, it puts them right off of listening to anyone associated with that. That’s where centregreens would have to bite their tongues and choke down rats.

              So any hypothetical centregreen coalition with Nats will also get various factions within the Nats arguing. But governing is always like that.

              • My impression is that such people would be a tiny part of National’s constituency (if they weren’t, National’s environmental credibility would stand a little higher than “non-existent”). And if National were to prioritise that constituency over the majority of its members and its core principles (foremost of these being “interests of the ruling class trump all other considerations”), it would be on a par with the 4th Labour government’s fling with libertarianism. Can’t see it happening.

                • Andre

                  My impression is there’s a lot more potential bluegreens than just a tiny part of the Nat vote. But that may be because most of the Nats I come across are in connection with some sort of outdoor activity like skiing, mountain biking, whitewater etc.

          • Incognito 1.3.1.1.3

            The Green Party policies are (highly) integrated and form a holistic framework and the basis on which the party has been founded. I don’t think you can isolate one set of policies without the rest and achieve anything meaningful. Unless you’re suggesting they become a fringe party like ACT pushing for one or two pet projects [pardon the pun].

            • BM 1.3.1.1.3.1

              So unless the Greens get over 50% of the vote and control the whole shebang none of their policies will work, nothing works in isolation?

              For fucks sake who were the idiots who came up with that framework?

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                They built a framework you cannot understand. The next test is to boil an egg.

                • BM

                  No, they built a framework that doesn’t work in an MMP environment, it’s fucking useless.

                  • Incognito

                    I’d say that this framework is firmly rooted in reality while MMP is a recent human construct, a pretty poor one to boot IMO.

            • lurgee 1.3.1.1.3.2

              As soon as I hear the word ‘holistic’ I reach for my revolver …

              I have to agree with BM, which probably makes us both feel a little bit strange, and not in a good way.

              Your response makes it sound like the Greens can’t actually ever look to work in coalition. Unless they find a coalition partner that is willing to implement their entire programme. Which seems a bit unlikely.

              Are you, perchance, just chucking nice sounding words about to make it look like you’re dealing a mighty blow to the churl?

              • Incognito

                There are certain words that make some people froth at the mouth and pop a few veins; “holistic” seems to be one of those.

                My comment @ 1.3.1.1.3 was a response to Andre @ 1.3.1.1 who entertained the idea of the Greens splitting.

                What I was saying is that you cannot separate policy areas from others without a complete deconstruction-reconstruction and that the end-result will be nothing like the Green Party and what it stands for.

                Revolver or not, your interpretation of my comment is way off the mark and to be frank it really puzzles me.

                As to the willingness or capability of the Greens to work in a coalition I can honestly say that I haven’t got the faintest. They did sign an MOU with Labour though and it seems that they are keen to take the next step, aren’t they?

                Lastly, I am trying to work out things here for myself as much as anybody and we live in confusing times I reckon and I find myself having too little patience for others, which is not something I particularly enjoy!

                PS Is lefthandpalm your blog?

                • lurgee

                  If it isn’t my blog, I’d be suing that lurgee chap for plagiarism, as it is currently reproducing a lot of my comments here.

                  I actually forgot I’d posted the above last night. Just said it again, in an even more long winded manner.

        • mikesh 1.3.1.2

          Peters’ best legacy would be for the party to continue after he’s gone. This is is what he should be working towards.

  2. Carolyn_nth 2

    thanks, weka.

    Some sense about the options for the GP.

    And shocking the way the MSM have slanted the discussion eg not highlighting issues of climate change – and still with the remnants of FPP thinking that the largest party forms government.

    And all of us on the left have work to do for the next 3 years – supporting the campaigns for the climate, for reformation of our social welfare system, and for a more sustainable but productive economy.

  3. Sabine 3

    National is in a hard place. No matter they need a partner for an outright majority. They are not guaranteed a stable partner full stop. So even if Labour/Greens stay in opposition they could hinder National from implementing their platform by simply getting some votes (4 – 5) from NZF and outvote National at any given time.

    It is time that people stop crying and understand that National has not won in the sense of ‘winning’. Labour and the Greens can do quite a bit of damage to National in opposition and wait for National / NZF to implode. Which if they form a coalition they will, simply because they don’t have much that binds them.

    Also if we get a L/G/NZF goverment it would be a fine example of MMP. The majority of the people did not vote for National, and it is then reflected in the coalition partners.

  4. Carolyn_nth 4

    Whatever government is formed, it comes down as much to values as policy: this will determine the priorities in inter-party negotiations.

    Unlike the way the MSM make it see like any Labour or Nat policy is a done deal if they lead a government – all policies are up for negotiation. I wish mainstream journalists had been more focused on that, and underlying values, during the election campaigns.

  5. Rosemary McDonald 5

    Russell Norman?

    What is it with this guy?

    Three years ago he gave out the ‘keeping the options open with working with National’ mixed message, and fuck me dead he does it again this morning on Natrad.

    We need to keep all clogs out of his reach.

    I don’t consider my two ticks Green wasted.

    • weka 5.1

      I just had a listen,

      http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/201859764/former-greens-co-leader-russel-norman

      I don’t think it was quite that bad. He’s saying that in order for the Greens to work with National, National would have to move a long way on sometime like climate change and make a very substantial offer to the Greens, but that that is unlikely to happen. Who thinks National would come up with something that would be attractive to the Greens? I don’t, and there’s still the massive issue of ending poverty and cleaning up rivers. There’s just no way that National can move that far.

      Norman is being a bit laissez fair in his commentary and you are right, it’s similar to what happened in 2014. He’s technically correct, but his messaging still is not the great.

      I was more disappointed last night with his repeated assertion that the Greens fucked up on the welfare stuff. Really glad he’s not still part of the party.

      • greywarshark 5.1.1

        weka
        Yes I heard that comment about Greens messing up the election run-up by having Meteria mention poverty. He could have said that the way it was handled made it an indigestible message but he didn’t qualify his remark enough in my opinion.
        Dumped on Metiria I think. I think its good he is not still in the Party. So different to Jeanette who is still firing on all her political cylinders when I hear her.

        • weka 5.1.1.1

          I thought he dumped on Turei too, and the party. Was unnecessary, as you say he could have framed it differently so I can only assume he thinks the welfare policy is wrong.

          • Tracey 5.1.1.1.1

            Big time. But his raison d’etre is environment hence his current position never was the social justice part of the charter. Am wondering if he left over the zcharter rewrite or are my dates way wrong?

      • Rosemary McDonald 5.1.2

        Thanks for putting up the link weka…I heard it on the transistor radio this morning..but having no sound on this laptop was unable to listen to the link and confirm.

        The Greens have moved on since Norman’s day…probably the ‘leftistist’ party we have.

        They need to keep on that track.

      • Tracey 5.1.3

        Yes he allowed his view of what the party should be to cloud what it is.

        • greywarshark 5.1.3.1

          Tracey
          I think that the poverty thing is not being dealt with by any of the others and Greens have to extend beyond the environment pure and simple, even if middle class people don’t want to include people in their landscapes.

          Anyway the poor can’t be stetched to their limits and still have a care for the environment. However bring in some training and some part time work on Task Force Green for unemployed, be showing the skills, while they are doing the mahi and hello! What a great idea. I should have a Nobel Prize for thinking of something that our sainted politicians haven’t even caught onto yet./sarc

      • Booker 5.1.4

        I did think he looked a bit jaded when I saw him on the RNZ coverage last night. It’s a pity, he brought some great economic ideas to the table while leading the Greens.

  6. greywarshark 6

    What next? It certainly is hard to see your way clearly in today’s politics, as it always has been I suppose.

    Yanis Varoufakis makes some comments about the positions of Greece and Germany and warns against complacency. When you seem to be doing well he says, it may represent an ill wind. I quote a telling phrase, “Complacency is a country’s worst enemy'” I think he may be talking to us, as so many of NZs “feel their land is ‘doing fine’.”

    13.9.2017
    The Greek people are paying dearly for having been lulled into a false sense of security, writes former Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis. Germans, he says, are laboring under the same illusion today.

    Complacency is a country’s worst enemy. My compatriots were, once upon a time, lulled into a false sense of having “made it.” I very much fear that a majority of Germans feel their land is “doing fine.”

    That the federal election campaign is proving such a tepid affair is a reflection of the false sense of security generated by Germany’s three surpluses: Companies save, households save, the Frankfurt banks are awash with monies sent to them from other European countries, even the federal government budget is in surplus. But these surpluses are the sign of weakness, not strength. They are the harbingers of significant current and future hardship for most Germans now and in the future.
    https://www.yanisvaroufakis.eu/2017/09/13/germany-needs-a-frank-debate-not-this-tepid-election-campaign-op-ed-in-deutsche-welle/

    • But these surpluses are the sign of weakness, not strength.

      Yep. Can pretty much guarantee that those government surpluses are reflected in massively increased private debt.

      • mikesh 6.1.1

        Surpluses are really only justified in a booming economy, when you want to cool things down. I don’ think we are quite in that position yet.

  7. RedBaronCV 7

    I thought James Shaw made the best speech of the evening highlighting the NZ had indeed voted for changes and that this is likely to end up at about 58 Nact and 62 everyone else which is rather more than Nact have had over the last little while.

    I’m kinda sorry that Jacinda didn’t develop that positive theme.

    NZF & the Greens have a lot in common. neither want to be linked to parts of a larger party agenda that will crucify them (think Nick Clegg) but I see no reason why both wouldn’t be happy to support confidence & supply (provided there were negotiations before it came to parliament and why should there not be continuing negotiations in the background throughout a parliament – there are now) so they weren’t blindsided. In return they have ministerial posts in areas of interest and again negotiate with the other two to past relevant legislation. Much as parties do within themselves now.

    • red-blooded 7.1

      Jacinda did emphasise that the voters had spoken and that most had voted for change. She made it clear that it was too early to call this election and that all options for coalition and confidence and supply had to be on the table. As it happens, I think she gave the best speech of the evening.

      We do have to remember WP’s ongoing sense of competition with and dislike for the Greens, though. I hope he can see past it, but I won’t be surprised if he can’t. That’s the guy (and the party) the NZ electorate served up as having the power to choose who gets to form the next government.

  8. To which we can add some other key things like Pike River (I’m really hoping someone draws up a comprehensive list today). Shaw is saying now is the time to put the differences aside and work together. There’s enough there to work with then, but maybe there is need for caution too.

    A list would be good. The list should show the commonality between NZ1st, Labour, Greens and National. It needs to show the latter because there’s almost no overlap between NZ1st and National. If NZ1st want to be true to their members, the people who voted for them and their policies then they actually can’t go with National.

    I cannot imagine the Greens even contemplating a referendum on the Māori Seats.

    I can. If it’s a referendum of Māori on the Māori seats then they could easily support it because then it would be a decision by Māori only. And Winston does have a point about the majority of Māori not being on the Māori roll.

    A referendum on the seats could have the benefit of increasing Māori participation in politics in general and increasing support for those seats.

    A referendum on the Māori seats isn’t necessarily negative or something to be afraid of.

    So what happens if Peters brings things to the table that the Greens (or Labour) can’t agree to?

    There would, from what I can make out of the policies of the three parties, be some compromise that all of them could agree on.

    The third option is that if Peters’ bottom lines are unacceptable, the Greens (and Labour) remain in opposition and National get a fourth term with an unstable coalition partner that may or may not last.

    That’s one possibility but not one that I want. The amount of damage that a continuing National government will do to the country, even if it’s only a short term one, will bring me nightmares.

    TVNZ never once raised climate change in NZ election debate when opposition parties called this as a key issue- think about that

    That’s actually disturbing considering how much we need to change because of it. That change is also a massive opportunity. Muldoon saw it – back in the 1970s. It may not have been Climate Change that drove him to Think Big but it was obviously the Right Thing to do. He just did it wrong. Now we need to do it again and, thanks to Muldoon, we actually have a large part of the infrastructure in place and the experience and skills to drive it further.

    It comes down to the ‘war time economy’ that keeps getting passed around. Where we pull out all the stops to do what needs to be done. And that’s going to mean the government creating money to utilise our own resources. It’s going to mean capital controls to prevent excess foreign money coming in as we have now. It’s going to mean dropping FTAs/WTO and putting in place standards and tariffs instead (actual free-trade). It’s going to mean a level of employment where low paid jobs disappear because people will be able to get better paid jobs elsewhere that present a better challenge as well. It’s going to mean changing the rules on resource extraction.

    We can afford to do all of this because we have the resources and people available to do it.

    • RedBaronCV 8.1

      The need to be bold. If we are not do we end up in a few years with a “brexit” or “Trump” as the group who feels they are never listened too bite back .

    • weka 8.2

      Is Peters’ idea to have referendum for Māori only? How would eligibility to vote be determined?

      Even under such conditions I can’t see the Greens supporting that. A referendum on the Māori seats would need to be driven by Māori. At the moment it’s not.

      “So what happens if Peters brings things to the table that the Greens (or Labour) can’t agree to?”

      There would, from what I can make out of the policies of the three parties, be some compromise that all of them could agree on.

      Yes, that’s not what I meant though. The Greens (and I assume Labour) already understand the compromise part. I’m pointing out that there are limits and that not everything can be compromised on.

      Just listened to Russell Norman point out that both National and Labour talked about the environment in their election night speeches. That’s good. The climate change thing, I still think it’s going to have to be pushed from outside parliament, but on that alone it’s probably worth trying to make a Labour-led govt work. However the Greens have seen what happens when they compromise on CC policy and I really hope they make their climate plan a bottom line even if they need to amend it.

      • Is Peters’ idea to have referendum for Māori only?

        http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11892285
        http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11892732

        I think he’d go for it given his and his party’s position on them.

        How would eligibility to vote be determined?

        Māori descent and if those people consider themselves Māori.

        A referendum on the Māori seats would need to be driven by Māori. At the moment it’s not.

        You want to have a referendum to ask Māori if they want to have a referendum on keeping the Māori seats first?

        I note that Winston is of Māori descent and he seems to be driving it.

        I’m pointing out that there are limits and that not everything can be compromised on.

        in the last Labour/UF/NZ1st government they had an agreement to agree to disagree on some points. It was a quite stable government.

        However the Greens have seen what happens when they compromise on CC policy and I really hope they make their climate plan a bottom line even if they need to amend it.

        Climate Change is where all three parties seem to agree the most and will thus have the least amount of compromise.

        • weka 8.2.1.1

          “Māori descent and if those people consider themselves Māori.”

          Yes, but we don’t have a roll for that, so how would that work?

          “You want to have a referendum to ask Māori if they want to have a referendum on keeping the Māori seats first?”

          Lol, better than a referendum on the Māori seats being generated by NZF. But no, what I meant is that I don’t see anyone other than NZF wanting the referendum, and I don’t see a push from within Māoridom for it. This suggests that it’s not a priority for Māori and any referendum would be an imposition.

          “I note that Winston is of Māori descent and he seems to be driving it.”

          Sure, but that doesn’t mean his views reflect those of many or most Māori. It just says that he’s in a position of power to make his own view happen. That’s dictatorial not representative.

          “in the last Labour/UF/NZ1st government they had an agreement to agree to disagree on some points. It was a quite stable government.”

          Yes, I think it’s doable once established. What I am meaning is if Peters wants something in the negotiations that the Greens aren’t ok with. In other words, the Greens aren’t obliged to take any deal they’re offered, it still has to match their values (and get passed by the members).

          “Climate Change is where all three parties seem to agree the most and will thus have the least amount of compromise.”

          True, and I’ll have a look at NZF’s policy later. But Labour and the Greens’ policy is different, and I think the Greens are going to want to abolish the ETS and replace it with a Carbon Tax. Given what happened with their support for the ETS years ago, I suspect this will be one thing they won’t want to compromise on.

          • Carolyn_nth 8.2.1.1.1

            Yes, but we don’t have a roll for that, so how would that work?

            I’ve had people tell me they are registered as having Maori whakapapa, and have been shown the card they were given – I think to use when Maori whakapapa is required for some activity or registration or funding.

            • weka 8.2.1.1.1.1

              I would guess there will be a huge number of Māori that haven’t done that e.g. the whole urban Māori issue where whakapapa can’t be established. I haven’t kept up with that though.

              It’s possible that the Crown could offer for Māori to self select into a new special roll, but then we already have the Māori electoral roll about which the referendum would be making a decision and it seems odd to form another roll to ask Māori whether to get rid of the first one or not.

              This is another reason why the whole issue needs to come from Māori.

              • This is another reason why the whole issue needs to come from Māori.

                No it doesn’t. In fact, there is no logical connection from one to the other.

                The only logical conclusion we could reach from what you just said is that we actually do need that data on who is and who isn’t Māori.

                • weka

                  Because the Crown has a Treaty with Māori and it’s not the Crown’s place to make this happen. And frankly, given the proto-fascist way that National are operating with regards to data, I don’t trust them. If Māori want a review of the Māori seats they will say, and then they can determine what eligibility to vote on that is.

                  • Because the Crown has a Treaty with Māori and it’s not the Crown’s place to make this happen.

                    Do you know why the Māori seats came about?

                    And frankly, given the proto-fascist way that National are operating with regards to data, I don’t trust them.

                    Neither do I but that doesn’t mean that we don’t actually need that data.

                    If Māori want a review of the Māori seats they will say, and then they can determine what eligibility to vote on that is.

                    This comes back to that why. The seats don’t exist because of Ti Tiriti but because of the electoral rules at the time.

              • Carolyn_nth

                Actually, the person who showed me their card, didn’t know what her Iwi was – she lives in New Lynn, and has never had much connection with Maori communities – and is retired.

            • greywarshark 8.2.1.1.1.2

              Winston is playing the trickster with his Maoriness as he does with other things. Divide and conquer is the effect. But what he will be winning is a moot point. But it catches people’s attention and directs it to him for now, so that’s what matters. And seems to make some point about strength and integrity. It comes under the heading of ‘sneering at the nanny state’ having your hand held like a child, ‘you’re grown-up now’ etc.

              If Maori fall for the line they would be throwing away all the wisdom and fighting power they have brought into their fight to maintain their mana and resources against the ravening hordes from the other side of the world. We have made agreements and got a just-getting-by association of peoples going which works but limits Maori to a particular status that is recognised in formal and informal ways. They have the right to have four members in Parliament recognising them, they can’t be ignored. They also have a choice to vote on the general roll if they want.

              Maori can’t be left out of Parliament, can’t be pushed aside completely and merely be relying on patronage from condescending people (I remember Jenny Shipley voicing ‘our Maoris’). It is a historic right Maori have gained that should never be given up, always be there to be invoked and used when other avenues are not proving satisfactory. Take it away and Maori become just another cultural entity in a NZ where hospitals, who see all the broad population eventually, may have the need of 50 language translators available for needed communication.

              Our neo lib economy and free market is supposed to be about choice, so Maori would be unwise not to invoke their right to have a quota as a base line in Parliament.

          • Draco T Bastard 8.2.1.1.2

            This suggests that it’s not a priority for Māori and any referendum would be an imposition.

            Possibly but it’s a point of compromise that would allow a Labour/NZ1st/Green government and it could be turned into a significant positive if done well.

            That’s dictatorial not representative.

            Yes but, as I’ve mentioned before, we have elected dictatorship rather than a democracy. It’s how the system was designed and it needs changing as well.

            NZFirst Environmental Policies.

            There are many there that I disagree with (water really does belong to the state) but a working compromise could be reached.

            • weka 8.2.1.1.2.1

              The Greens are committed to Māori though, I can’t see how they would think it was their place to do a deal that undermined that. That the system favours dictatorial behaviour doesn’t mean the Greens have to behave like that.

              • The Greens are committed to Māori though, I can’t see how they would think it was their place to do a deal that undermined that.

                It could be used to improve Māoridom. As I said, it’s not all negative.

                That the system favours dictatorial behaviour doesn’t mean the Greens have to behave like that.

                We have a dictatorial system. It’s going act dictatorially no matter what the Greens want. The best option then is to get the best result from that dictatorial action.

  9. Ad 9

    The Green Party certainly have some work to do at 1% above obliteration.

    Currently 94% of New Zealand voters avoid supporting the Green Party.

    The Green Party in one form or another have been around since the 1972.

    In that time they have never been in Cabinet.

    They have held an electorate seat once – for one term only.

    They have a had a Confidence and Supply agreement with a full government once.

    Their achievements in parliament have been a home insulation programme, the Child Discipline Act, and the Energy Conservation Act.

    They will face some really big tests of compromise if there is a proposal to form a government, and it will need real solidarity from its members to accept that and to keep them in it.

    The Greens need to do better than 6%. They know that. It’s not enough to influence much, so they will need to be very, very targeted about what to go for from here.

    If they are not in government they will not have many MPs to focus Parliamentary or electorate or media or campaign work with.

    They are very, very lucky to have an exceedingly smart and honorable leader in James Shaw. He has been the saving of them over the last two months.

    He alone has the leadership capacity to get them through this next term, from this vulnerable state and into better shape in the next election.

    • weka 9.1

      Not terribly surprised to see you talking them down again Ad. The Greens are anathema to the centrists on the left. Or they would be if they went the whole hog as Bill suggests. I guess there is still some common ground, enough to be getting on with in the meantime.

      • Ad 9.1.1

        It’s the results that talked their parliamentary representation down. The truth is in the results.

        The worst thing the Green Party and its supporters could do is retain the same fabulous idealism but fail to address why they did so poorly.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 9.1.1.1

          Whereas the Greens will judge the outcome by the policy results, and that’s what you persistently fail to address or even show any understanding of.

          All you’re doing is revealing things about yourself and presenting them as relevant and wise.

          • Ad 9.1.1.1.1

            The policy results can only be delivered if the Greens are a part of the government.

            The more seats in parliament they have, the stronger their capacity to deliver their policies.

            The top seven sentences of POInt 9 were from Wikipedia.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 9.1.1.1.1.1

              The policy results can only be delivered if the Greens are a part of the government.

              I realise that’s the way you can conceive of, but we already knew that.

              • greywarshark

                OAB
                Thinking of conceiving. I think Ad is saying that you can’t be half pregnant. You either are or not. I am not saying that the Greens are virgins, naive, or unaware of life’s realities but they just can’t go with anyone, and drop their own standards too much or they won’t be unique.

                The Greens, as they try to achieve a position in the law-making, power achieving government circle, can’t get there just by going through the regular process.

                Greens want to make changes, be different, and too many NZs are conformist and lazy thinkers, they are followers who don’t even reflect on the worthiness of the leader or path they are following – as long as their palms are crossed with gold.

                Greens may feel like using one of Nature’s systems autogamy, self fertilisation, seeing the other political parties are failing, their vigour lost, and retrogression rules. But the other parties have won by strengthening themselves combining with similar others. In the meantime before everyone else passes away, how can the Greens get to be a marriage partner and not the eternal bridesmaid or best man?

                It’s no use trying to appeal to reason, to appeal to precautionary action, to appeal to scenarios on reliable research, to unfortunate cycles of boom and bust in past history, to appeal to fear of repetition in a worse future, to appeal to concern for others welfare, to appeal to one’s own longer-term welfare, to appeal to understanding of meaningful statistics, to appeal to understanding of the lack of understanding of meaningful statistics, to awareness of the cyclical nature of human events, to awareness of the vast numbers of facts that we don’t know, have heard but not retained, not understood, deliberately misheard, misinterpreted through prejudice towards some factor etc.

                So if Greens can’t appeal to reason what then? How to contend with the flood of trivia that fills the senses, the overload of fantastic real and false stuff to wonder at, while the tide of problems washes around our toes? What has helped me is to limit my intake, which leaves time for some thinking. But I haven’t thought how Greens can break through the bovine cud-chewing stare of the comfortably off as they look with interest at the odd-bods trying for break-through.

            • KJT 9.1.1.1.1.2

              If, like National, you get into Parliament by forgetting principles. What is the point?

            • KJT 9.1.1.1.1.3

              Like the Maori party. Eh. How is that working for them. Again?

    • One Anonymous Bloke 9.2

      the Child Discipline Act

      🙄

    • Tracey 9.3

      Plus their numerous policies greenifying other parties. It is like you deliberately have no pre Greens memory.

      Unlike you, Greens do not care who gets the credit for following some of their ideas as long as they are implemented.

      You need to pull you head out of the FPP arse Ad.

      • Ad 9.3.1

        I don’t really mind who takes credit for what policies, and it’s great that the Greens have functioned as the policy unit of Labour for several years.

        But don’t be fooled into thinking that the Greens have greened New Zealand. By almost every environmental measure we continue to go backwards. That is not a great record for the Green Party.

        If the Greens want to achieve their policies such that the whole of New Zealand is changed for good as a result, they need more MPs in parliament.

    • Incognito 9.4

      Currently 94% of New Zealand voters avoid supporting the Green Party.

      This is one way of framing it but to me this almost sounds like saying that the Green Party is unpalatable to 94% of the voters. I suspect this is not entirely true and I like to think that quite a few people are sympathetic to the Greens and/or to some of their policies but not enough to give them their overall Party Vote.

      A vote not in favour of a party is not the same as a vote against that party or parties. This is how MSM tends to frame it and I think it is disingenuous.

      • Ad 9.4.1

        It’s the facts of the results that matter now. Not the framing.

        The Greens were on course two months ago for their best result ever. If they had achieved that we would have a simple Green-Labour government being sworn in right after final vote.

        Instead, due in no small part to that poor performance, the country is held in limbo for as long as New Zealand First wants.

        • Incognito 9.4.1.1

          The world is full of facts but to make sense of these we make up stories and use ordinary language, framing, and heuristics, not symbolic logic.

          Two months ago Labour was on a hiding to nothing.

          IMO it is simplistic to put down the outcome of the elections to the “poor performance” of one party as if it were some kind of a Black Swan event. There are many moving parts that have been continuously at play & interplay. This makes life, and politics for that matter, fascinating and frustrating at the same time.

          • Ad 9.4.1.1.1

            In what the results have delivered, Labour could easily have disappeared as an entire movement if they had been on the same tracking as they were prior to Little stepping down.

            The difference between that and the Green Party events that led to their result will be written about for a while.

            We are now however beyond optics and heuristics.
            We have campaigned in poetry, we are now preparing to govern in prose.

            Now, there is only a negotiation. A negotiation whose forces and capacities are measured only and precisely in the results.

            • Incognito 9.4.1.1.1.1

              No, it is not (just) about the results; it is also about the stuff before, in-between, and after the results. It is also about the dynamics of the system and the inter-relationships that bring about the results.

  10. Bill 10

    I can’t escape the feeling that the Greens, when presented with the opportunity to be the change off the back of Metiria’s speech at the initial campaign launch, were far too keen to default to the softer option of affecting change by the time of Shaw’s speech at their re-launch.

    It’s a legitimate position/strategy, but to my mind, not one that should have been preserved …. Carpe diem and all of that.

    • RedBaronCV 10.1

      Metiria did okay in the electorate vote. Rino had his vote cut in half with both the Maori party and Metiria the beneficiaries.

  11. Incognito 11

    Thanks weka for this very good post; some of the comments are also spot on and ‘uplifting’.

  12. savenz 12

    James Shaw is very impressive. He understands how to compromise and has no ego. Pretty much a miracle considering the occupation he’s in.

    Greens did a lot of things wrong this election. Like Labour in the past they became divided and let a group’s personal agenda take over the rhetoric. They became group thinkers and that led to disunity and disruption. Their result does not reflect them as individuals but does reflect the problems they created for themselves. I’m not sure they even understand why they lost so many votes. It was not just Metiria’s confession and not understanding how it would be used to derail the election away from National’s various crisis – it was a succession of bad calls this entire year.

    BUT, Green’s recovered enough to stay in parliament. Even people who don’t vote for them want them in parliament.

    Greens understand the future. They have great ideas and policy. They just can’t organise the right way to get there. NZ First understands the past but struggles with the future. Labour have refreshed (hopefully lost their egos) and hopefully become wiser.

    All three parties together they are a great way forward for this country.

  13. Grantoc 13

    The fundamental tension within the Greens between its hard left socialist stance and its environmental stance continues to confuse voters.

    This tension/confusion is on display again right now whereby Shaw is categorically ruling out any negotiations with the Nats. This positioning suggests that the NZ Greens are, actually, predominantly a hard left socialist party.

    There are many more environmentally sympathetic voters than there are hard left socialist voters, and only a few who are both. I suggest that there are but a few hard left voters out there for the Greens to draw on as they seek to increase their vote and influence.

    Voters who are sympathetic to a party that puts the environment first and at the centre of their value system and policies are very unlikely to lend their support to a Green party that is perceived to be more interested in being aligned with socialism, as the NZ Greens are.

    Hence the low vote for the Greens in this election. And the vote won’t grow unless they clearly become an environmentally centred party and ditch their flirtation with socialism.

    And frankly environmental issues are of far greater importance to NZ and the world than socialism.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 13.1

      🙄

      Why display your ignorance like this? The subject has been covered comprehensively by James Shaw, by Nandor Tanczos, and here at The Standard.

      So there’s no excuse for your complete ignorance, other than that you are too stupid or dishonest or disinterested in the facts. Probably all three.

      No, I’m not going to explain it to you: you couldn’t be bothered listening to Shaw when he explained it in tiny little words.

      As for Socialist, you obviously can’t define it. I note that you want everyone else to clean up your mess.

      PS: you can drop any lip service you pay to environmental issues too: no-one is fooled by your dishonesty except you.

    • Ad 13.2

      To me that is the strength of James Shaw.

      He alone brought the Greens messaging back in the last six weeks.
      And he alone with his consistent messaging got them that crucial .9% of the vote to stop them facing the same fate as the Maori Party: oblivion.

    • BM 13.3

      This, if the Greens want to go down the Alliance/Mana poverty route they’re going to have to ditch Shaw and put in people like Davidson and Hughes in charge.

      A suit-wearing wealthy white liberal is not the face you can have fronting a party with that sort of focus.

      it will never work.

      • Oh, look at that – a RWNJ giving advice to his adversaries again.

      • Incognito 13.3.2

        Crikey! Stereotyping much? You’d expect a tree-hugging dope-smoking hippy with dirt under his fingernails to front the Greens? Or you lack the imagination to accept that a “suit-wearing wealthy white liberal” is not a hard-core supporter of ACT or National? In other words, James Shaw is an existential threat to you, isn’t he?

    • The fundamental tension within the Greens between its hard left socialist stance and its environmental stance continues to confuse voters.

      The two are one and the same. That’s not confusing.

      This positioning suggests that the NZ Greens are, actually, predominantly a hard left socialist party.

      Looking after the environment does require looking after the population as well else we end up with the massive social injustice that we have plus ongoing environmental degradation.

      There are many more environmentally sympathetic voters than there are hard left socialist voters, and only a few who are both.

      Then the ones that aren’t both need to wake up to reality.

      Nature doesn’t negotiate and She doesn’t take prisoners.

      And frankly environmental issues are of far greater importance to NZ and the world than socialism.

      Wrong.

      We cannot address environmental issues if we maintain the same, failed capitalist system that causes the environmental degradation.

      • Incognito 13.4.1

        Well said.

      • Grantoc 13.4.2

        Are you arguing that caring about the environment is only possible within a hard left socialist framework? And by implication someone who is not a hard left socialist cannot by definition effectively care for and be concerned for the environment?

        If so; thats rubbish.

        It sounds like you are also suggesting that looking after the environment and the people can only be done under a socialist system. If so I again disagree. Socialism generally fails to deliver the necessary economic outcomes to deliver on this.

        Your arrogant dismissal of environmentally conscious and concerned voters who do not believe in socialism will only ensure that the Greens will always be a small minority party with little influence in this country.

        Good luck with your rigid inflexible ideological driven approach to climate change and environmentalism. You will achieve nothing but reruns of the current situation the Greens find themselves in.

        • weka 13.4.2.1

          “Are you arguing that caring about the environment is only possible within a hard left socialist framework?”

          Yes.

          “And by implication someone who is not a hard left socialist cannot by definition effectively care for and be concerned for the environment?”

          Superfically they can. They’re just not willing to put it into practice in a real way. It’s actually dangerous because it lulls people into thinking something is being done. Thus polluted water ways and climate change.

          “It sounds like you are also suggesting that looking after the environment and the people can only be done under a socialist system. If so I again disagree. Socialism generally fails to deliver the necessary economic outcomes to deliver on this.”

          Actually, we could be doing way better than we are under a centre left capitalist govt. The GP plans are essentially designed to run in the system we have now, because they’re being pragmatic.

          National policy is the antithesis of any meaningful care for the environment because it’s runs an extractive economy which is inherently unsustainable. Go and save a few bird species, that’s great, but don’t expect anyone who understands Green politics to take you seriously when you support politics that have environmental damage built into them.

        • Draco T Bastard 13.4.2.2

          Good luck with your rigid inflexible ideological driven approach to climate change and environmentalism.

          Actually, the problem is your inflexible ideology as you refuse to take into account reality.

  14. chris73 14

    Where to now for the Greens? Easy, first thing to do is stop being Labours doormat. By saying they’ll only go with Labour allows Labour to treat the Greens with all the respect they deserve (ie none)

    If the Greens want respect (and a voice in government) then they need to drop the MOU (combined they still got less than National) and say they could consider National in the future (and actually start to make it happening, mere words won’t convince anyone) and what that would mean is Labour would then have to woo the Greens like they’re about to woo Winston

    Winston can ask for, and likely get, whatever he wants while the Greens will act pathetically greatfull if Winston allows them to be part of the coalition

    Nobody respects a doormat

    • Ad 14.1

      That would make them very interesting indeed.

      Shaw has been pretty clear this morning that that possibility would take comprehensive changes in policy direction inside National on a variety of policy areas.

      • chris73 14.1.1

        Well I’m not saying they have to (although I wouldn’t wind seeing a Blue/Green government) but if the leave the door open a little rather than keeping it firmly closed then Labour would have listen to the Greens a bit more

        Basically 21 years (or or is it more) and they’ve achieved basically nothing and have never been in government

        Do the Greens really want to get some of their ideas implemented because if they do then they need to be inside the tent

        • Carolyn_nth 14.1.1.1

          If Labour want to form the government, they MUST include the Green Party.

          Shaw is making some strong demands of them – ie to be included in negotiating with NZ First.

          Mr Shaw said he would not take a back seat in any negotiations and expects to be a full partner in any deal between Labour and New Zealand First.

          The three parties just need to get in a room and talk, he said.

          “I would completely expect Labour to take a lead in negotiations, and initially have series of one-on-one conversations, but we don’t know what the process is yet.”

          Mr Shaw expected a phone call from Labour leader Jacinda Ardern today.

          The Green Party had to be involved in talks to ensure the next government would “last the distance”, he said.

          Despite some reports National would work with the Greens, Mr Shaw has ruled out that possibility and said he has not received a call from Bill English, nor would he call the National Party leader.

          “I’ve always said my goal was to change the government, and to form a new coalition government with the Labour Party afterwards, that’s what I’m working on and I think that possibility remains very real today, and even more so once the special votes are being counted,” Mr Shaw said.

          • chris73 14.1.1.1.1

            Then you better hope that Labour and NZF don’t get enough special votes to govern alone because if the do its bye bye Greens, again

          • BM 14.1.1.1.2

            Good because if Shaw wusses out and takes a silent role the Green party dies.

            I think he’s smart enough to realise that, Greens have to be in a prominent role going forward.

    • It’s almost comical watching right-wingers parade their inability to understand the Green Party.

      • chris73 14.2.1

        Question was where to for the Greens, not how well you understand them. I know the Greens won’t go with National or even entertain the idea but its what I’d like to see happen because (self-interest time) I’ve gotten into hunting and I’m trying to convince my wife to go tramping so I wouldn’t seeing the Greens have some influence on National

        • One Anonymous Bloke 14.2.1.1

          How about you just take some personal responsibility instead? Example: trying to convince the Party you follow not to destroy things?

          • chris73 14.2.1.1.1

            The only influence I had was with Sir John Key (you want to know why some benefits were raised, well you’re welcome) and now that hes gone I have to work on getting that influence back

            It might take some time

        • Psycho Milt 14.2.1.2

          You’d like to see the Greens have some influence on National, and for that to happen, you’d like to see the Greens approaching National offering some kind of deal in which parliamentary votes are traded for influence. I get why right-wingers think that way, but when talking about the Greens it’s about as likely as David Seymour getting up in Parliament to sing a rousing chorus of The Internationale when introducing his private members’ bill to restore compulsory unionism.

      • Incognito 14.2.2

        To be fair, I also struggle with understanding the Greens. That said, I also wonder about Labour from time to time …

    • Easy, first thing to do is stop being Labours doormat.

      They’re not Labour’s doormat no matter how much the RWNJs think they are. If they were they’d agree with everything that Labour told them to – just like ACT and National really.

      They don’t and never will do that.

      and say they could consider National in the future

      That would lose them about 90% of their voters.

      Winston can ask for, and likely get, whatever he wants while the Greens will act pathetically greatfull if Winston allows them to be part of the coalition

      No, we won’t.

      Nobody respects a doormat

      Which is why thinking people don’t respect National and their willingness to kowtow to the US/China and the UK. And, well, pretty much anyone who’s richer than they are.

      If you want an example of political party of a doormat look no further than National.

  15. Cave Johnson 15

    As a former member of both Greens & Labour, the problem I see with the Greens is that they are generally viewed as the left wing of the Labour party. When Labour slumps the Greens rise, and when Labour rises the Greens slump. This is because since 2005 their messaging and brand have not been strongly distinct from Labour’s. Could this be due to Labour’s shift in messaging after seeing the Greens success in 2002?

    Labour to Green seat counts
    2005: 49 to 6
    2008: 43 to 9
    2011: 34 to 14
    2014: 32 to 14
    2017: 45 to 7 (interim)
    This means the Greens are not much more helpful to Labour’s government aspirations than if they didn’t exist (most voters would simply move across).
    Until the left works out how to have more distinct appeal contrast between the two parties it is really wasting the opportunity of MMP.

    • Cave Johnson 15.1

      I remember Mike Ward’s optimism from the early days of the party. Maybe his latest initiative has some interesting ideas. https://creativealliance.org.nz/who-we-are

    • Stuart Munro 15.2

      It’s odd that you should think so, because a majority of commenters here find the differences material enough that they have moved away from Labour, although they were originally as tribally Labour as that party might wish.

      NZ is in the grip of a failed far-right government – it should not surprise anyone when parties that are not part of that evidence a similar determination to be rid of it. Had the Gnats been a responsible rightwing government the perception of policy differences might have been very different. There would have been less need for poverty relief and urgent housing measures for example.

      There is little doubt the Greens would prefer to be rolling out organic gardening and solarisation policies to a sustainably comfortable classless society. But ignoring the critical issues of the day won’t achieve that – we have a government doing that already.

      • Cave Johnson 15.2.1

        But what do you think of the patterns in the numbers? Do you acknowledge the problem?

        • McFlock 15.2.1.1

          Well, I for one don’t agree that your description of the stats means there’s a problem.

          Yes, very few people are going to jump from act to green, but that doesn’t mean that every green rise is at the expense of labour or vice versa. As your numbers indicate.

        • Stuart Munro 15.2.1.2

          Given that the totals range from 46 to 58 the exchange between the Greens and Labour is clearly less than their catchment from other sources. Which renders it secondary.

          As Labour appear to have learned to some degree with the adoption of the MOU, creating policy cleavage points with the Greens will not on its own solve the problem of acquiring an overall majority.

  16. Sparky 16

    Well as one ex Green supporter I dumped them primarily because of talk of yet more capital gains taxes which I felt would turn NZ into a mini Australia. I lived in Australia for years and yes their capital gains taxes are pretty substantial but then you look at the capital value of property there you can see why its justified.

    Here we earn less and our homes whilst gaining in value don’t have the value of Australian property and probably never will. Moreover Australia has less expensive groceries with no GST tax on primary items like meat and veg, substantial super and other tax benefits such as tax breaks on things like laptops and even tertiary education if you can prove its work related even if you are not self employed.

    We have none of that here and I felt as a result this was unfair on mum and dad investors trying to save for their retirement and leave a nest egg for the kids.

    I suspect there was movement to Labour and NZ First (I voted for the latter) by supporters. I do not know if their reasons were shared with my own but there you have it.

    • Stuart Munro 16.1

      Your concern for investors above all other priorities calls your claimed Green credentials into question. As does your use of the spin phrase “mum and dad investors”. CGT is the international norm – NZ’s position is the anomaly.

  17. lurgee 17

    I gave my party vote to the Greens in 2014 and 2017.

    I have to say I feel BM is uncomfortably close to something like the truth in what he / she says.

    I think the Greens are actually facing an existential crisis. They have achieved very little in their time and – as 2017 demonstrated – is actually from the radical wing of Labour, seeking to put pressure on the larger party’s left flank. Their insistence that they can only work with Labour has made this inevitable. Labour, of course, has pissed all over the Greens at every opportunity.

    As they are proving ineffective in realising their core policies, the reason for people to vote for them is diminishing. You vote for a party to effect change. The Greens have proven a singularly ineffective means of doing so, either from the point of view of a Labour radical or a genuine Green party environmentalist.

    I think we may see the Greens continue to wither as they lose their unique selling point. Labour will absorb some of their environmentalism and some of their social policies. I think the Greens may well disappear in 2020. I don’t think that’s a good thing. Just something that is moving from the ‘Possible’ category to ‘Probable.’

    I think the social / economic policy, unfortunately, is a major problem for the Greens. It prevents them attracting a lot of support, as voters are put off by the ‘commie stuff.’ It prevents them working with other parties and leaves them in a hopelessly weak position with Labour. Purists might argue that they can only attain their environmental goals by restructuring the economic paradigm along the lines outlined by the Greens; how’s that working out for yah? 6%? Not so good.

    Given the critical environmental issues facing the country, I’d like to see a far more environmentally focused Green Party. Accept that you are only representing a small section of New Zealand voter, and (important bit) even that section are primarily motivated by the environmental policies, no the social policies. Accept that actually stopping bad stuff in the short term happening is more important than maintaining ideological purity in the long term. Staying true to principles isn’t going to stop climate change; though I suppose the moral high ground is the place to be in the face of rising sea levels …

    I don’t suppose this message will be well received. Oh, well.

  18. francesca 18

    Who knows how long the whole neoliberal experiment is going to last worldwide. Corbyn, according to UK polling is now preferred PM, and the majority of Brits support his policies. In NZ we would probably call those policies “commie” and extremist, thats how far right we went in the 80s and 90s.
    Those policies were mainstream a couple of generations ago.
    There will come a time when Green policies are the new normal, and the old neoliberal style will be scoffed at and considered unenlightened.
    Or not, in which case we’re past tipping point and on the road to destruction

  19. Cave Johnson 19

    Not sure if this link has already been posted… https://nandor.net.nz/2017/09/29/the-politics-of-green-coalitions/

Recent Comments

Recent Posts

  • If you can’t measure it, does it exist?
    In the last couple of weeks, I’ve been busy preparing for our summer paper on Science Communication. Looking for something amusing about ‘risk’ in science, I came across this neat xkcd.com cartoon about why so many people come knocking on my door (or phoning me, or emailing me) desperately wanting ...
    SciBlogsBy Marcus Wilson
    2 hours ago
  • Swinson’s swithering
    Jo Swinson is doing even worse at this Being Sensible lark that I'd thought.  I've just become aware of the following utterance
    .@KayBurley presses Lib Dem leader @joswinson on whether she would agree to a #Brexit deal 'no matter how bad a deal it is' as long as it had ...
    13 hours ago
  • Women’s rights, trans ideology and Gramsci’s morbid symptoms
    by John Edmundson The International Socialist Organisation (ISO) have recently reposted a February article, by Romany Tasker-Poland, explaining ISO’s position in the “trans rights” debate.  It is available on their website and on their Facebook Page.  The article sets out to explain why “socialists support trans rights”.  It reads more ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    20 hours ago
  • We need to take guns off police
    Today's IPCA report of police criminality: a police officer unalwfully tasered a fleeing suspect who posed no threat to anyone:The police watchdog has found an officer unlawfully tasered an Auckland man who broke his ankle jumping off a balcony to escape arrest. [...] To avoid arrest, the man jumped over ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    20 hours ago
  • “Bringing kindness back”
    "Auckland City Mission: 10% of Kiwis experiencing food insecurity", RNZ, 16 October 2019:About half a million people are experiencing food insecurity, according to new research from the Auckland City Mission. Food insecurity, or food poverty, is defined as not having enough appropriate food. The City Mission said over the last ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    20 hours ago
  • Press Release: “Fake News” from Auckland City Council CCOs Board Chairs re pay and performance b...
    Media Statement for Immediate Release 16th October 2019 “Fake News” from Auckland City Council CCOs Board Chairs re pay and performance bonuses for top managers Despite comments from Auckland City Council CCOs Board Chairs re pay and performance bonuses for top managers—Herald Newspaper Tuesday Oct 15th–there is very little evidence ...
    Closing the GapBy Tracey Sharp
    21 hours ago
  • Ever-So-Slightly Bonkers: Simon Bridges Plays To His Base.
    Would You Buy A Used Propaganda Video From This Man? Bridges and the National Party’s strategists have discovered that the ideas and attitudes considered acceptable by today’s editors and journalists are no longer enforceable. The rise and rise of the Internet and the social media platforms it spawned means that ...
    22 hours ago
  • Asking for food
    There is plenty of evidence of the way the business mentality has permeated every level of society since the recrudescence of market liberalism 35 years ago. You only need to think of how citizens in need of help from their government, their state, their country, are now routinely described as ...
    Opposable ThumbBy Unknown
    22 hours ago
  • Forty years of change in the jobs Kiwi do and the places they call home
    John MacCormick Over the last 40 years, New Zealanders – and people in other countries – have experienced big changes in the jobs they do and where they live and work. These changes include: a decline in manufacturing jobs an increase in jobs in ‘information-intensive’ industries (which are better paid ...
    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    23 hours ago
  • Protecting Fresh Waterways in Aotearoa/NZ: The Strong Public Health Case
    Nick Wilson, Leah Grout, Mereana Wilson, Anja Mizdrak, Phil Shoemack, Michael Baker Protecting waterways has the benefits of: (1) protecting water from hazardous microbes; (2) minimising cancer risk and other problems from nitrates in water; (3) avoiding algal blooms that are hazardous to health; (4) protecting mahinga kai uses (cultural ...
    SciBlogsBy Public Health Expert
    1 day ago
  • Massey University triggered to rebrand
    by The Council of Disobedient Women In a press release today Massey University announced it has decided to rebrand and reorientate after struggling to be a University for grown-ups. For some time the University has wanted to be a safe play space for wee-woke-misogynists who have been really badly triggered ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    2 days ago
  • Swinson backing calls for a second referendum (again)
    After a brief dalliance with 'hard Revoke' it looks like the Lib Dems are changing ground on on Brexit, with leader Jo Swinson reverting to calling for a second referendum on Johnson's deal.The party has tabled an amendment to the Queen’s speech requesting that any deal brought back from Brussels ...
    2 days ago
  • An odious bill
    The government has decided that someone has done Something Bad. But despite their belief, there seems to be no evidence that they have actually broken the law. So the government's solution is to pass a retrospective law allowing them to be punished anyway, on a lower standard of proof. If ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 days ago
  • National is now the party of climate arson
    So, Judith Collins has done a Facebook rant about climate change, peddling the same shit National has been shovelling for the past twenty years: the impacts are overstated, there's no need to do anything about it, and its too hard anyway (oh, and its so unfair that people who peddle ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 days ago
  • The environmental footprint of electric versus fossil car
    Climate Explained is a collaboration between The Conversation, Stuff and the New Zealand Science Media Centre to answer your questions about climate change. If you have a question you’d like an expert to answer, please send it to climate.change@stuff.co.nz There is a lot of discussion on the benefits of ...
    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    2 days ago
  • “Manifest” by Andrew Bird – A Song For The Times.
    I came across this song quite by accident. If it isn't one of Greta Thunberg's favourites - it should be.Video courtesy of YouTube.This post is exclusive to Bowalley Road. ...
    2 days ago
  • Passing the buck
    Last month, NZDF's shoddy coverup of what it knew about civilian casualties in Operation Burnham began to fall apart, with the revelation that a report on the matter, which NZDF claimed not to have, had been sitting in an NZDF safe for the past nine years. Yesterday, the man responsible ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 days ago
  • India a major player in Earth observation satellites
    While many imagine that countries like the USA and Europe dominate space activities, in fact India is now a major player on this stage. It launches satellites for its own purposes and also commercially, and has constellations orbiting our planet and returning data of vital importance to that nation in ...
    SciBlogsBy Duncan Steel
    3 days ago
  • The rot at the top (2).
    Thanks to a report from the Acting Inspector General of Intelligence and Security following a complaint by Nicky Hager, we have come to find out that the SIS illegally spied on Mr. Hager on behalf of the NZDF after publication of Hager’s 2011 book, Other People’s Wars. The NZDF justified ...
    KiwipoliticoBy Pablo
    3 days ago
  • Common misconceptions about “Global Warming”
    COMMON MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT GLOBAL WARMING MYTH 1: Global temperatures are rising at a rapid, unprecedented rate. FACT: The HadCRUT3 surface temperature index, produced by the Hadley Centre of the UK Met Office and the Climate Research Unit of the University of East Anglia, shows warming to 1878, cooling to 1911, ...
    An average kiwiBy admin@averagekiwi.com
    3 days ago
  • A climate of tyranny
    For the past week, Extinction Rebellion has been peacefully protesting in London to demand action on climate change. The British government's response? Ban their protests:Police have banned Extinction Rebellion protests from continuing anywhere in London, as they moved in almost without warning to clear protesters who remained at the movement’s ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • Collins crushes climate
    An essay by Judith Collins MP reported on Carbon News yesterday seems to show an alarming shift in attitude within the National Party. Collins argues against the Zero Carbon Bill, the Paris Agreement, and downplays the magnitude of climate impacts. The Paris Agreement was adopted in December 2015 and ratified ...
    SciBlogsBy Robert McLachlan
    3 days ago
  • More disappointment
    When they were running for election, Labour promised to overhaul the Employment Relations Act and introduce fair pay agreements to set basic pay and conditions on an industry level, preventing bad employers from undercutting good ones. They followed this up by establishing a working group, which reported back in January ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • What do these mother-child studies really say about fluoridation?
    A list of indicators of bad science – many of these are found in articles promoted by anti-fluoride activists. Anti-fluoride activists have been pouring money into a scaremongering campaign warning pregnant women not to drink fluoridated water. They claim fluoride will lower the IQ of their future child. Fluoride ...
    3 days ago
  • Losing Labour’s Mills-Tone.
    Nothing Left To Say: Labour's pollster, Stephen Mills, remains swaddled-up in the comforting myths of the 1980s. As if the experience of Roger Douglas’s genuinely radical post-Muldoon policy agenda was literally a once-in-a-lifetime thing – as much as the party could possibly absorb for at least the next 50 years.MEMO ...
    3 days ago
  • Speaker: Disability and the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Historical Abuse
    The Royal Commission on abuse in care is very significant for the disability community. For many decades last century, thousands of disabled children, and adults who managed to survive, were locked away from families and communities. This was not for anything they had done, but for the perceived threat their ...
    3 days ago
  • Spain is not a democracy
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • UK Conservatives hate democracy
    With an unfair voting system, uneven electorates and an un-elected upper house, the UK's "democracy" is barely worthy of the name. But now the government wants to make it worse:The government has been accused of suppressing voters’ rights with the potential disenfranchisement of tens of thousands of people after plans ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    4 days ago
  • What is wrong with our building industry?
    Back in the 90's and early 2000's, the building industry was building leaky homes which should never have been granted consent. Now it turns out they've been building dodgy office blocks as well:New imaging technology has revealed hundreds of major buildings nationwide have defective or missing concrete or reinforcing steel. ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    4 days ago
  • Local bodies
    Local body election results were released over the weekend, to joy or despair depending on where you live. In Auckland, Phil Goff trounced John Tamihere, who is muttering darkly about running for Parliament again (but which party would want him?) Wellington is now a wholly-owned subsidiary of Weta Workshop, except ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    4 days ago
  • A future of government
      How could government evolve over the next decades? Reports of democracy’s imminent demise are greatly exaggerated.  However, satisfaction with political systems in many countries is low, so there is much to do for governments of all political stripes to improve relevance and trust. Digital technologies are seen as one ...
    SciBlogsBy Robert Hickson
    6 days ago
  • Speaker: Catalonia, interrupted
    Two years have now gone by since the Friday afternoon when my university-student son and I headed out of our Barcelona flat to a nearby primary school, designated as a polling station for the vote that was to be held the following Sunday: the referendum on Catalonia’s independence from Spain ...
    6 days ago
  • Sage Decisions Unwisely Over-Ruled.
    Overruled: The joint decision of Finance Minister, Grant Robertson (Labour) and his Associate Minister, David Parker (Labour) arguably the two most powerful ministers in Jacinda Ardern’s government, to grant OceanaGold the consents which Land Information Minister, Eugenie Sage (Greens) had earlier denied them, offers bitter proof of how hard fighting ...
    6 days ago
  • Government may ban voting in effort to get more people to do it
    More than double the number of people who will vote in this year’s local body elections have tried marijuana or urinated somewhere they shouldn’t have. As local elections look set for the lowest turnout in decades, with many regions falling well short of 40%, the Government is exploring a number ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    7 days ago
  • Woman: Deleted.
    A Statement on Abortion Law Reform by the Council of Disobedient Women   On the eve of bringing an end to antiquated, anti-women abortion laws Green MP Jan Logie intends to write women out of the Bill. With a stroke of the pen, the woke are aiming for total erasure ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    7 days ago
  • The Hollowest of Men Ride Again… SURPRISE!
    Musings continue apace about “the experienced businessman!” soon to be taking up a National Party MP position. Or to be more accurate, being parachuted into a seat to shut down their former MP Jamie-Lee Ross, who despite his own shortcomings shed at least some more light on the inner workings ...
    exhALANtBy exhalantblog
    7 days ago
  • Barbaric
    The Ugandan government wants to murder gay people:Uganda has announced plans to impose the death penalty on homosexuals. The bill, colloquially known as “Kill the Gays” in Uganda, was nullified five years ago on a technicality, but the government said on Thursday it plans to resurrect it within weeks. The ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    7 days ago
  • Fighting Monsters.
    Freedom Of Speech? The Säuberung (cleansing by fire) was the work of the German Student Union which, on 10 May 1933, under the watchful eye of the Nazi Reichminister for Propaganda, Joseph Goebbels, consigned 25,000 books to the flames in a ritual exorcism of “un-German thought”. According to the logic of the ...
    7 days ago
  • The next wave of kaupapa Māori politics: its constitutional, it must be.
      “There can be no such thing as kaupapa Māori political parties or politics in Aotearoa” (Willie Jackson, Labour Party (2017). Māori TV, General/List Election Special) I begin with that claim because at the time, I was confounded at first that it fell out of Willie Jackson’s mouth, and then ...
    EllipsisterBy Ellipsister
    1 week ago
  • Night lights of NZ from orbit
    New Zealand has prided itself for decades with regard to its lack of pollution, and all will be aware that the ‘100% Pure New Zealand‘ meme is under threat through land, water and air pollution of various causes. There is another type of contamination that the country also faces: light ...
    SciBlogsBy Duncan Steel
    1 week ago
  • Reporters deliver uplifting news to fleeing Japanese residents: they won’t miss any rugby
    New Zealand’s media is doing its part in Japan, reassuring those in the path of the storm that they won’t miss any rugby while away from their flooded homes. New Zealand sports reporters stationed in Japan for the Rugby World Cup have had the rare and heartwarming opportunity to inform ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • Government in contentious discussions about whether to put surplus on red or black
    Regional Development Minister Shane Jones is the only Cabinet member in favour of putting it all on green. As Finance Minister Grant Robertson finds himself with an enormous $7.5 billion surplus, the Government has begun intense, at times contentious conversations about whether to put the money on red or black at ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • Jordanian teachers’ successful strike has lessons for here
    by Susanne Kemp At the start of September close to 100,000 school teachers went on strike in Jordan.  They demanded a 50% pay rise.  A pay rise actually agreed to by the regime back in 2014. In early October, however, in the face of government repression and threats, the teachers’ ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    1 week ago
  • Why some people still think climate change isn’t real
    Climate Explained is a collaboration between The Conversation, Stuff and the New Zealand Science Media Centre to answer your questions about climate change. If you have a question you’d like an expert to answer, please send it to climate.change@stuff.co.nz Why do people still think climate change isn’t real? David ...
    SciBlogsBy Guest Author
    1 week ago
  • The SIS unlawfully spied on Nicky Hager
    Back in 2011, journalist Nicky Hager published Other People's Wars, an expose on NZDF's activities over the previous decade of the "war on terror". NZDF didn't like this, and especially didn't like the fact that it was base don leaks from their own. So, they had the SIS investigate him ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • October 2019 – Newsletter
    https://mailchi.mp/7d9133add053/closing-the-gap-october-2019-newsletter ...
    Closing the GapBy Tracey Sharp
    1 week ago
  • And they wonder why we think they’re environmental vandals…
    The Zero Carbon Bill is due back from select committee in two weeks, and will likely pass its final stages in November. So naturally, farmers are planning a hate-march against it. But they're not just demanding lower methane targets so they can keep on destroying the planet; they're also demanding ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Climate Change: Paying the price in California
    Last year, California burned. This year, to stop it happening again (or rather, to stop themselves from being found liable if it happens again), Pacific Gas and Electric is cutting power to half the state for a week:Schools are closed. Traffic lights down. Tunnels dark. Businesses unopened. Hospitals running on ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Let’s Hear It For Up-Close-And-Personal, Hard-Copy Democracy!
    The Best Way: Missing from the on-line voting debate is any reference to the voting system that produces turn-out figures ranging from 77 to 93 percent of registered voters. The voting system used to collect and count the votes cast in our parliamentary elections. The system that involves citizens making ...
    1 week ago
  • 10/10: World Day Against the Death Penalty
    Today, October 10, is the world day against the death penalty. Out of 195 UN member states, 84 still permit capital punishment. Today is the day we work to change that. This year's theme is children. Having a parent sentenced to death or executed causes long-term trauma and stigmatization which ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Talking Freer Lives: a Marxist gender-critical perspective from Australia
    Among the great new bunch of political friends we have been making recently is the excellent Australian-based Marxist gender-critical site, Freer Lives.  So we asked the comrade who set up that blog to write something for Redline on the blog, himself, his analysis of the rise of gender politics and ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    1 week ago
  • Government spin accepted by union leadership
    by Don Franks  The Auckland City Mission is struggling with a 40 percent increase in demand for food parcels this year. A total of 23,020 were needed by June. Last month Missioner Chris Farrelly told the Herald the “cupboards are bare” and without an emergency food drive, he can’t see ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • Forbidden Thoughts
    by The Council of Disobedient Women   Massey Wellington Student Association had a sit-in today. Imagine a sit-in. On a campus. Against a women’s rights meeting. Did the ’60s really happen or did we fucking dream it? They gathered in the student square, an echo chamber. Sitting on soft pillows ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • Much love to my loyal Ukrainian readership
    For some reasons, my post about the mystery message from inside the Downing Street bunker seemed to catch people's attention.  Quite a lot of hits from NZ (unsurprisingly) and the USA (a bit more puzzlingly, but hi there, USAians!!) and 76 views from the Ukraine.I've celebrated my Ukrainian readers in ...
    1 week ago
  • Another day of bonkers GNUmours (again, sorry)
    First, almost a score of Labour MPs seem to have sent a letter to the EU basically begging them to accept a deal - any deal - just so Britain can get the Heck on with Brexiting instead of being trapped in limbo:
    To avoid no deal, deliver on the ...
    1 week ago
  • Labour vs working class immigrants – again!
    by Phil Duncan In 2016 the National-led government suspended the Parent Visa Category, through which migrants were able to bring their parents into New Zealand.  Since then over 5,700 people have been in immigration limbo, stuck on the visa wait list. Labour is now bringing back the scheme.  Well, sort ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    1 week ago
  • Speak Up for Women press statement: on Massey University and Feminism 2020
    The following was released yesterday (Tues, October 8) by the women’s liberation organisation Speak Up for Women. On 23 September Speak Up For Women announced that we would be holding an event at the Massey University Theaterette in Wellington. The event is called Feminism 2020. The intention of the event ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    1 week ago
  • Farmers support dirty rivers
    The government is currently consulting on plans to improve freshwater quality. So naturally, farmers oppose it:South Taranaki farmers are preparing to fight proposed national freshwater changes that some fear will bankrupt them. The Government's proposed National Environment Standard on Freshwater Management, released in September, rated the Waingongoro River as one ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • No-one cares about local government
    Yesterday was the last day for (reliably) posting your vote away in local body elections. Turnouts are mostly much lower than the equivalent time last year (Palmerston North is down 2.3%), and so naturally people are pushing their online-voting snake oil again. Because the online census worked so well, lets ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • The political ghosts of eugenics may matter more than the genetic
    This essay, on the political legacy of the eugenics movement, by Kenan Malik was originally published in the Observer on 6 October 2019, under the headline ‘The spirit of eugenics is still with us, as immigrants know to their cost’. Birth control. Intelligence tests. Town planning. Immigration controls. It’s striking how ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • “Surplus” again
    Another year, and the government has announced another enormous government "surplus". And just like last year, its nothing of the sort. When we have people homeless and sick and hungry, when we have schools and hospitals still falling down, when we have underpaid public servants and infrastucture unmaintained or unbuilt, ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Inside the Downing Street bunker
    James Forsyth at The Spectator (I know, I know) has tapped one of his contacts inside Number Ten for an insight into the Johnson administration's thinking and strategy.It is fascinating, unsettling and quite, quite mad.  Some key points:Negotiations have stalled and the Johnson administration are keen to blame the EU: ...
    1 week ago
  • Taking Control Of The Nation’s Story.
    Fatal Contact: With the arrival of captain James Cook in October 1769, the islands of what would become New Zealand ceased to be the preserve of Polynesian navigators and settlers and became a part of both the world’s map and the world’s history.THE MAORI NATIONALIST assault upon the historical meaning ...
    1 week ago
  • Are GNUs extinct?
    Another round of tactical talks about forming a Government of National Unity have come to nothing with the Liberal Democrats still refusing countenance putting Jeremy Corbyn into Downing Street:Opposition talks on Monday made little headway over when to try and vote down Boris Johnson's government and who might succeed him as ...
    1 week ago
  • Labour chickens out again
    When the government was elected, it promised to lead the way on electric vehicles, and specifically to make the government vehicle fleet emissions-free where-practicable by 2025.They lied:There are 15,473 vehicles in the government fleet and only 78 are electric. When the coalition Government came into power in late 2017, the ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Transgender extremism, violence at work against feminist meeting at British Labour Party conference
    by Nick Rogers The debate around the meaning of sex and gender made an appearance at this year’s British Labour Party conference in Brighton. Women’s Place UK – an organisation that questions the demand that biological males who self-identify as woman should have access to women’s spaces, to all-women shortlists, ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    1 week ago
  • Rebelling in Wellington
    Yesterday I went down to Wellington to participate in the Extinction Rebellion protest. Its part of the latest global wave of XR actions, with actions happening all over the world. Some of those protests are massively disruptive: in Canada, XR is blocking major bridges, stopping people from getting to work. ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • ‘The Workshop’ – Report: Talking about Poverty and Welfare Reform: A Guide to Strategies that ...
    The Workshop is a charitable trust for public good. The Workshop undertake research to find ways of communicating that will build support for the solutions that work to solve complex social and environmental problems. See their Report on Talking about Poverty and Welfare Reform below. ...
    Closing the GapBy Tracey Sharp
    2 weeks ago
  • Exclusive language
    What is language? We generally assume that it a facility unique to humans, allowing us to share what’s in and on our minds. We can tell of our plans, our past exploits, our knowledge. It also allows us to lie. And yet there are vast numbers of people we can’t ...
    SciBlogsBy Michael Corballis
    2 weeks ago
  • April 2018 – Submission to the NZ Govt Tax Working Group
    You can read our submission HERE ...
    Closing the GapBy Tracey Sharp
    2 weeks ago
  • 2018 – Submission to the NZ Government Tax Working Group
    Read our submission here ...
    Closing the GapBy Tracey Sharp
    2 weeks ago
  • Guardian: Poll shows DISASTER for Corbyn and the End of Times
    The Guardian - ever eager to forewarn of doom and disaster on the left - are leading with a new poll from Opinium, which puts the Conservatives 15% clear of Labour.Con 38% +2Lab 23% -1Lib Dem 15% -5Brexit 12% +1Green 4% +2This isn't good news, and it would be very ...
    2 weeks ago
  • How prostitution became the world’s most modern profession
    Being and Being Bought (Spinifex Press, 2013) by Kajsa Ekis Ekman  A synopsis and commentary of Chapters 1-2 by Daphna Whitmore Ekman, a Swedish journalist and critic, brings together a Marxist and feminist analysis of prostitution and surrogacy in this groundbreaking book She opens the discussion with a definition of ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    2 weeks ago
  • Clever legal fellow on Scottish challenge to Brexit
    I make no claims to having much legal knowledge,  so I defer to those trained in this area.I am very much enjoying this twitter stream from m'learned friend in Edinburgh, deciphering the legal arguments around the Scottish court challenge to Boris Johnson, based on the charmingly obscure principle of Nobile ...
    2 weeks ago
  • An Open Letter From Closed Minds.
    Ivory Folly? The University of Auckland’s Vice-Chancellor, Professor Stuart McCutcheon, upheld the right of the radical nationalist group, Action Zealandia to exercise their freedom of speech – not matter how distasteful that speech might be. A wiser community of students and scholars would have nodded their agreement and moved on. ...
    2 weeks ago

  • New awards celebrate fisheries sustainability
    The Minister of Fisheries is calling for entries for a new public award to celebrate innovation in our seafood sector. “I have established the Seafood Sustainability Awards to recognise and celebrate those throughout industry, tangata whenua and communities who demonstrate outstanding dedication and innovation towards the sustainability of New Zealand’s ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 hour ago
  • More progress for women and we can do more
    Minister for Women Julie Anne Genter welcomes leaders in the private sector taking action on closing their gender pay gaps to ensure a fairer workplace for all New Zealanders. Ms Genter today launched a new report, Addressing the gender pay gap and driving women’s representation in senior leadership, from the Champions for ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 hours ago
  • Proposals to curb environmental damage help our coasts and the oceans
    Government Ministers today welcomed the release of a marine environment report highlighting the four key issues affecting our oceans, estuaries and coastlines.  The release underlines the importance of government proposals to combat climate pollution, ensure clean freshwater, protect biodiversity, make land use more sustainable, and reduce waste and plastic.    Environment ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    16 hours ago
  • New mental health facility for Waikato
    The Government has approved funding for a new acute mental health facility for Waikato which will provide better care and support to people with mental health and addiction issues. Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern and Health Minister Dr David Clark announced the $100 million project to replace the aging Henry Rongomau ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    21 hours ago
  • 500 new te reo Māori champions in our classrooms
    The Government is making progress on its goal to integrate te reo Māori into education by 2025, with over 500 teachers and support staff already graduating from Te Ahu o te Reo Māori,  Associate Education Minister Kelvin Davis announced today. Kelvin Davis made the announcement at an awards ceremony in Waikanae today, for ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    23 hours ago
  • Minister James Shaw welcomes 2018 Census first release
    Statistics Minister James Shaw has welcomed the first release of 2018 Census data. The first release of data today, 23 September, includes key data on population, regional growth, the number of homes and the size of different ethnic groups in New Zealand. Data from the 2018 Census will support the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    23 hours ago
  • Driving transparency, ethics and accountability in government use of algorithms
    Minister for Statistics James Shaw today announced a public consultation on a proposed algorithm charter for government agencies. The charter has been developed by the Government Chief Data Steward in response to growing calls for more transparency in government use of data. Computer algorithms – procedures or formulas for solving ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    23 hours ago
  • New Zealand and the Netherlands working together on climate change
    Agriculture Minister Damien O’Connor, Climate Change Minister James Shaw and visiting Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte co-hosted a business roundtable in Auckland this morning focused on working together to address climate change.  “The Netherlands is an important partner for New Zealand. We share a strong agricultural history. Sustainable agribusiness and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    23 hours ago
  • Protecting fairness for workers and businesses
    The Government is taking action to build an inclusive economy where more of us receive our fair share at work and businesses can compete on great products and services, not undercutting wages and conditions, Immigration and Workplace Relations and Safety Minister Iain Lees-Galloway says. Two consultations launched today seek feedback ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    24 hours ago
  • Indigenous Freshwater Fish Bill Passes
    The future for New Zealand’s threatened indigenous freshwater fish looks brighter with the passing of the Conservation (Indigenous Freshwater Fish) Amendment Bill in Parliament today said Minister of Conservation, Eugenie Sage. “Until now, our freshwater fish legislation has been 20 years out of date. We have lacked effective tools to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Kiwis to take part in world’s biggest earthquake drill
    At 1.30pm tomorrow, hundreds of thousands of Kiwis will join about 65 million people around the globe in ShakeOut, the world’s biggest earthquake drill. The annual drill is to remind people of the right action to take during an earthquake which is to Drop, Cover, Hold, and to practise their ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Rising wages and low inflation supporting Kiwis
    Kiwis are benefiting from higher wage growth and low inflation under the Coalition Government. Stats NZ data out today shows the rise in the cost of living remains low, as annual Consumers Price Index (CPI) inflation fell to 1.5% in September from 1.7% in June. “The low inflation comes as ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • NZ economy strong amid global headwinds
    New Zealand’s economic strength and resilience has been recognised in a major update on the state of the global economy. The IMF’s latest World Economic Outlook released overnight shows a reduced global growth forecast over the next two years as issues like the US-China trade war and Brexit take hold. ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Keeping New Zealanders safer with better counter-terrorism laws
    Justice Minister Andrew Little has today introduced a new Bill to prevent terrorism and support the de-radicalisation of New Zealanders returning from overseas. The Terrorism Suppression (Control Orders) Bill gives the New Zealand Police the ability to apply to the High Court to impose control orders on New Zealanders who ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Improved succession and dispute resolution core of Ture Whenua changes
    A Bill that proposes targeted changes to simplify the processes for Māori land owners when engaging with the Māori Land Court has had its First Reading today. “The approach taken by the Government is to ensure that the protection of Māori land remains a priority as we seek to improve ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Speech to CTU Biennial Conference
    Let me first thank all the new unionists and members in the room. There is nothing more important to improving people’s working lives than people making the decision to care, to get on board and help, to take up the reins and get involved. Congratulations to you. You bring the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Minister ensures continued Whenuapai flight operations
    Minister of Defence Ron Mark has signed a certificate exempting the activity of engine testing at Whenuapai Airbase from the Resource Management Act 1991. The Act gives the Minister of Defence the power to exempt activities for the purposes of national security.  The certificate will mean the recent Environment Court ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • NZ joins Coalition of Finance Ministers for Climate Action
    Finance Minister Grant Robertson has announced New Zealand will join the Coalition of Finance Ministers for Climate Action while attending APEC meetings in Chile. The objective of the 39 member Coalition is to share information and promote action to tackle climate change. It was formed in April this year, in ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • CTU speech – DPM
    Ladies and gentlemen, NZCTU President Richard Wagstaff, members of respective unions – thank you for the invitation to speak to you today. This might be preaching to the choir, but the importance of trade unions in New Zealand’s historical arch is difficult to understate. And it is my belief that ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Police Association Annual Conference
    "Let’s start by acknowledging that it has been a huge year. " Police Association Annual Conference James Cook Grand Chancellor Hotel Wellington Nau mai, haere mai. Tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, ka nui te mihi, ki a koutou katoa. President of the Police Association, Chris Cahill; Members of the Association and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • New Zealand announces a further P-3 deployment in support of UN sanctions
    Minister of Foreign Affairs Winston Peters and Minister of Defence Ron Mark have announced the New Zealand Government’s decision to again deploy a Royal New Zealand Air Force P-3K2 (P-3) maritime patrol aircraft to support the implementation of United Nations Security Council (UNSC) resolutions imposing sanctions against North Korea. New ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • New Zealand deeply concerned at developments in north-east Syria
    Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters says New Zealand continues to have serious concerns for peace and stability in north-east Syria. “Recent reports that hundreds of ISIS-affiliated families have fled from a camp are deeply concerning from a humanitarian and security perspective”, Mr Peters says. “While we acknowledge Turkey’s domestic security ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Government on high alert for stink bugs
    Biosecurity Minister Damien O’Connor is warning travelling Kiwis to be vigilant as the high-season for the crop-eating brown marmorated stink bug (BMSB) is under way. “We’re on high alert to stop BMSB arriving in NZ. The high season runs until April 30 and we’ve strengthened our measures to stop stink ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Better protections for students in halls of residence
    The Government is moving swiftly to change the law to improve the welfare and pastoral care of students living in university halls of residence and other tertiary hostels. Cabinet has agreed to several changes, including creating a new mandatory Code of Practice that sets out the duty of pastoral care ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • New trapping guide for community and expert trappers alike
    The Minister for Conservation Eugenie Sage has launched a new comprehensive trapping guide for community trappers to help them protect our native birds, plants and other wildlife, at Zealandia in Wellington today. ‘A practical guide to trapping’, has been developed by the Department of Conservation (DOC), and was launched during ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Widening Access to Contraceptives Welcomed
    Associate Health Minister Julie Anne Genter welcomes PHARMAC’s move to improve access to long-acting reversible contraception (LARCs). PHARMAC has today announced it will fund the full cost of Mirena and Jaydess for anyone seeking long term contraception, lifting previous restrictions on access to Mirena. “I welcome women having greater choices ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Major upgrade for Taranaki Base Hospital
    The Government has approved the next stage of a major redevelopment of Taranaki Base Hospital, which will deliver new and improved facilities for patients. Health Minister Dr David Clark has announced details of a $300 million dollar project to build a new East Wing at the New Plymouth hospital. It ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Extra support for rural families
    Extra funding will allow Rural Support Trusts to help farming families, says Minister for Rural Communities and Agriculture Damien O’Connor. “I know that rural families are worried about some of the challenges facing them, including the ongoing uncertainty created by the Mycoplasma bovis outbreak. “Those concerns sit alongside ongoing worries ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Howard Leaque Beekeeper programme graduation
    Thank you for the opportunity to be here to present certificates to the 16 graduates who have completed a beekeeping course delivered by the Howard League.  Let us start by acknowledging Auckland Prison’s Deputy Prison Director Tom Sherlock, and Acting Assistant Regional Commissioner of Corrections Northern Region Scott Walker - ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • Finance Minister to attend APEC meetings
    Finance Minister Grant Robertson leaves this weekend to attend the APEC Finance Ministers meeting in Santiago, Chile. Discussions between APEC Finance Ministers at the meeting will include the effects of the current global economic uncertainty, risks for APEC economies and sustainable development of the region. While at APEC Grant Robertson ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • Pacific languages are a source of strength, they ground us and build confidence
    The Minister for Pacific Peoples Aupito William Sio says for Pacific people, language can be a source of strength. It can help ground us and give us confidence. When we speak them, our languages provide us with an immediate and intimate access to our identity and our story - and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • Major boost to support disabled people in sport and recreation
    The Coalition Government has announced an action plan to improve the wellbeing of disabled New Zealanders by addressing inequalities in play, active recreation and sport. The initiative includes training to develop a workforce that understands the needs of children and young people with a range of impairments, advocacy for fit ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • More prefab homes to be built as red tape cut
    The construction sector is being freed up to allow more homes to be built more quickly as the Government cuts through some of the red tape of the Building Act.  “Every New Zealander deserves a warm, dry, safe home and old inefficiencies in the Building Act make building slow and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • Further details of Prince of Wales and Duchess of Cornwall visit to New Zealand
    Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern has welcomed further details on the Prince of Wales and Duchess of Cornwall’s visit to New Zealand next month. Their Royal Highnesses will visit New Zealand from 17-23 November – their third joint visit to New Zealand and first in four years. They arrive in Auckland ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • O’Connor in Thailand to push for RCEP deal
    Minister of State for Trade and Export Growth and Minister of Agriculture, Damien O’Connor, heads to Thailand today to attend the final Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership (RCEP) Ministerial meeting, as negotiations enter their final stages. “The RCEP Agreement would anchor New Zealand in a regional agreement that covers 16 countries, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Young Pacific people can access earning and learning opportunities in Hawke’s Bay, Otago and South...
    Pacific young people living in the Hawke’s Bay, Southland and Otago regions will have access to support services that have proved successful in helping young people find new earning and learning opportunities. “Tupu Aotearoa is about changing Pacific young peoples’ lives. Our young people are talented, they are smart, they ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Protecting wellbeing – ACC HQSC Trauma Forum
    Introduction As the Minister for ACC I thank you all for the work that you do supporting New Zealanders in their literally most vulnerable moments. From those who hold people’s lives in their hands, to the people who research technique, technology and trends, your work is highly valued. A special ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • NZ economy in good shape – notes prepared for speeches in Christchurch
    Notes prepared for speeches in Christchurch – Wednesday 9 October 2019 Today’s topic, “trends and opportunities for the New Zealand economy,” is certainly one getting a great deal of commentary at the moment. Looking across the media landscape lately you’ll notice we aren’t the only ones having this discussion. There ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • World Mental Health Day a reminder of the importance of mental health work
    Minister of Health Dr David Clark and Associate Minister of Health Peeni Henare say this year’s World Mental Health Day theme is a reminder of why the Government’s work on mental health is so important. “This year the World Federation for Mental Health has made suicide prevention the main theme ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Cultural Ministers Meeting
    Associate Arts, Culture and Heritage Minister Carmel Sepuloni will represent the government at Australia’s Meeting of Cultural Ministers in Adelaide this week. “This year’s meeting is special because New Zealand is expected to become an International Member of the Meeting of Cultural Ministers at this Australian forum,” Carmel Sepuloni said. “The meeting is an opportunity to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago