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Why haven’t the police acted?

Written By: - Date published: 8:30 am, February 18th, 2022 - 474 comments
Categories: covid-19, human rights, labour, national, Parliament, police - Tags:

The Nazi supported anti vaxer protest seems to be growing.

Well known working class heroes Russell Coutts and Gilda Fitzpatrick are heading to Wellington to take part.

Coutts’ motivation is clear although irrational.  His primary concerns are the effects on people playing sport and he lists what he says are absurd restrictions.  Nothing earth shattering, nothing along the lines of detention without trial or suppression of free speech.  One of the examples he raises is “[t]he absurd rules that prohibit two young unvaccinated brothers, living in the same household, from sailing together in a sailing competition because they would be within two metres of each other while sailing their boat.”  It is strange that Coutts should be fixated on this.  The numbers who are affected must be exceedingly low and at a time of crisis rules need to be simple and clear and nuance and exceptions avoided.

In October last year Coutts complained about the Government’s actions and wondered why New Zealand still had restrictions when sporting events in the UK and the US were happening.  He makes no mention that in the UK 160,000 have died from covid and in the US the figure is 950,000.  In Aotearoa New Zealand the figure is 53.  His earlier claim that freedom of speech was being curtailed would appear to be overhyped, given his ability to have his personal views broadcast throughout New Zealand’s media.

His claims that the media have been bought and are repeaters of the Government’s spin is laughable.  He really should stick to publicly subsidised well paid elite sailing.

Parliament has opened up a tenuous line of communication.  If the protestors stop breaking the law they may talk to them.  This is a significant concession.  Opening up the possibility of having to listen to 60 minutes of claims about chemtrails, moderna darts, Bill Gates chips and world government is more than I would want even National MPs to have to tolerate.

Some of the protestors are refusing to budge until the mandates have ended.

Apparently in the midst of a public health crisis that is more severe than anything this country has experienced for a hundred years our elected representatives should be spending precious time negotiating when things will change.  We do not know what tomorrow will bring but according to some of the protestors who think they are immune our elected representatives need to sit down with them and talk with them about when things will get back to normal.

And the quality of the discussion is predictable.  On one side will be the best scientific and medical advice available.  On the other side will be people that think that with enough yoga nothing bad will happen.  And the Nazis will be behind them sabotaging every attempt to resolve matters.

Amongst this “peaceful protest” are people who have advocated for the killing of Cabinet Ministers and members of the press.  I repeat some of them are Nazis.  Many of the protestors are misguided and have no idea what they are talking about.  I just wish they trusted the scientific advice which has led humanity to so many advances.

Call me a conservative reactionary but I cannot believe that the Police have not stepped in.  Cars should have been towed on day one.  Tents should have been removed.  If people obstructed the police in the execution of these jobs they should have been arrested.

I wrote this earlier post to gently suggest that the police were perfectly entitled to take action.  Now I am scratching my head and wondering what is happening.  I appreciate there are young children being effectively used as shields but at some stage action will be required.  Our House of Representatives’ performance is being compromised and the precinct defaced, and access limited at the time that its job is more important than ever before.

If there are not arrests and car towing soon then the country and its institutions seriously needs to reflect on how they handle terrorist actions.  This has the feeling of a ramshackle idiot controlled coup.

474 comments on “Why haven’t the police acted? ”

  1. dv 1

    Death and infection rate per million

    US deaths 2853; Infections 238,919

    UK deaths 2340; Infections 270,185

    NZ deaths 11; Infections 5008

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

    • Jenny how to get there 1.1

      Something we can all be proud of.

      Something the Right from Donald Trump down, have tried to besmirch and slander.

  2. Enough is Enough 2

    The Nazi supported anti vaxer protest seems to be growing.

    And you wonder why its growing with idiotic inflammatory lines like that.

    Polls are indicating the same thing, which tells you the movement is growing legs and can't simply be ignored, or framed as a crazy nazi movement. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/127808790/parliament-protest-new-poll-shows-30-per-cent-of-kiwis-support-antimandate-protest

    I can't understand why people don't want the jab. But what I do know is this will not end until either the mandates end, or the government engages with them.

    Its time for the name calling to end and some dialogue to begin.

    • mpledger 2.1

      It won't end with the govt engaging with them. The protesters only want that for legitimacy and publicity – there will be always something that the govt says that will mean they won't budge (no matter how trivial), while they remain they have power, when they leave they have none.

      • Enough is Enough 2.1.1

        So how do you see it ending?

        Police with batons and tear gas?

        Bringing in the military to move New Zealand citizens Northern Ireland style?

        • mpledger 2.1.1.1

          I don't know. At the moment it seems to be to wait them out.

        • Andrew Miller 2.1.1.2

          It’s patently obvious the Police have screwed this up.
          There was a window to have acted early on and whilst there may have been some physical confrontation it could probably been kept to a minimum.
          By not acting they’ve now let it get to the point where they feel they can’t and have effectively given licence to more illegal behaviour and copy cat ‘occupations’ around the country.

          Whilst I have sympathy with anyone annoyed at the twitterfication of the discourse and obsession with the use of ‘Nazi’. It’s merely self righteously performative and utterly counterproductive (the nonsensical circular reasoning you see of ‘What if those we’re calling Nazis are Nazis’ is laughable).
          I have zero sympathy however with anyone still pretending there isn’t a significant involvement of the far right, that there’s a lot of truly odious agendas down there that have nothing to do vaccine mandates, that much of the behaviour is appalling, the disruption to Wellingtonians and harassment utterly unacceptable and if there really is a core of otherwise decent people merely expressing a view they’ve done nothing to distance themselves from the appalling people or appalling behaviour apparently giving them a bad name.
          If they can’t understand why all that prevents politicians speaking to them or the majority sympathising then they’re beyond delusional.

          • Enough is Enough 2.1.1.2.1

            When you are locked out of society for not taking medical treatement, those behaviours are entirely forseeable and predictable.

            • Andrew Miller 2.1.1.2.1.1

              They’re not ‘locked out’ and frankly, me, my kids, my wife and indeed anyone else have a right to safe places of work/education etc without being more at risk of serious illness from choices of others to embrace unscientific woo.

              • Julian Richards

                And how is vaccination status of an individual 'going to stop' you from contracting the omricon variant from a vaccinated or non-jabbed individual? You do understand your more likely to be infected by a vaccinated now with high vaccination rates nationwide, and 'especially more so if you only' go in to vaccine passport required venues when gathering with those outside your home.

                Of course it may reduce the chances very very mildly, but it will not stop the risk.Hence the mandates are redundant and discriminatory.

                Again for the record, I'm not #antivax, I'm vaccinated, but these mandates are doing so much more harm to our society than good now. I don't understand how anyone could say they're not…. Unless they can't admit they're wrong because of their own immaturity and naivety.

              • Critical Thinking

                Your comment is typical of the paranoid and baseless fear sweeping through the sheep in nz. Firstly if your vaccine works why are you at risk from an unvaccinated person? There are no reports of vaccine status in the media because the govt is not releasing the data. That in itself makes it very clear that the vaccinated are the ones being infected by other vaccinated. If the unvaxed were the problem the govt would drop that bomb. Secondly, there has never been a vaccine that does not work for you because I haven't had it. It is laughable that you spout this concept in complete denial of the reality that it makes no sense. Lastly if your vaccine doesn't work, how exactly will it help if other people have it. Go and read what dr Betty from the nz royal college of GP's said. Omicron is a bad cold or mild flu. Keep on ignoring reality, there is no vaccine for cognitive dissonance

                • Hanswurst

                  Your comment is typical of the paranoid and baseless fear sweeping through the sheep in nz.

                  You are the sheep in NZ. Wake up. As far as worrying about breakthrough infections goes, it is simply obvious that a virus that mutates at a decent, if not especially rapid, rate as CoVid-19 does, will have more chance to adapt and get past the vaccine the more vaccinated people are exposed to other infectious people. The latter are overwhelmingly the unvaccinated; as long as there are enough of them, they are posing a risk, and they should be utterly ashamed of themselves.

                  • julian richards

                    "…The latter are overwhelmingly the unvaccinated; as long as there are enough of them, they are posing a risk, and they should be utterly ashamed of themselves"

                    Explain the Gibraltar then?

                • roblogic

                  "your comment is typical of the paranoid and baseless fear sweeping through the sheep in nz." — as opposed to the 934,321 brave MAGA patriots who have died for free-dumb?

                  "There are no reports of vaccine status in the media" – – wrong

                  stuff rnz herald

                  "The vaccinated are the ones being infected by other vaccinated." — reference please. Another lie.

                  "If the unvaxed were the problem the govt would drop that bomb" — that's why we have mandates, fool

                  "Secondly, there has never been a vaccine that does not work for you because I haven't had it. It is laughable that you spout this concept in complete denial of the reality that it makes no sense." — what??? please rephrase this illiterate piece of illogic.

                  "Lastly if your vaccine doesn't work, how exactly will it help if other people have it." — false premise leads to false conclusion, therefore you speak nonsense

                  "Go and read what dr Betty from the nz royal college of GP's said. Omicron is a bad cold or mild flu." — No it's a variant of Covid that can fuck you up real bad or kill you.. Also a good friend of mine died from the flu so thanks for minimising a deadly virus.

                  "Keep on ignoring reality, there is no vaccine for cognitive dissonance" — do you even read yourself?

          • mickysavage 2.1.1.2.2

            Agreed entirely.

          • weka 2.1.1.2.3

            I largely agree too. I am curious however about this,

            There was a window to have acted early on and whilst there may have been some physical confrontation it could probably been kept to a minimum.

            What point do you think they should have acted and what should they have done?

            • weka 2.1.1.2.3.1

              The timeline

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convoy_2022_New_Zealand#Timeline

              1,000 people arrived on the Tuesday, not sure what time. On the first day, council was not issuing tickets due to staff safety concerns.

              On Weds, police issued the trespass notice.

              On Thurs they arrested 122 people, but obviously couldn't arrest them all, the numbers were too big by that stage.

              • Andrew Miller

                I don’t think effectively pushing the mob out and securing area required arresting them all.

            • Andrew Miller 2.1.1.2.3.2

              The point at which they arrested 120 people and had pushed the mob back as initially I thought that’s what they were doing. If it had been part of a planned strategy I think they could have continued and secured the area and then removed the structures. Whilst I understand the logistics of the perimeter, I think securing it so people couldn’t just and go at random is possible.
              They needed to start towing at that point as well.
              I fully accept it may have got a bit ugly, but I don’t think what they’re now doing has made that less likely and clearly if it does kick off it will be far worse.
              I can’t see how this approach won’t encourage odious people not already there to come, making it more intractable.

              • weka

                ok, so on the Thursday they should have pushed the mob back to where?

                From memory, they did put barriers up and the protestors removed them. Apparently it's a very open area, lots of points for people to get back in.

                I saw one report of a gate chained closed and the protestors cutting the chain and using it to hold the gate open.

                I also wondered if all the tents and cars made pushing the mob anywhere more difficult.

                And, there were children there.

                Not to say the police didn't make mistakes, just haven't seen a good explanation for what they should have done differently.

    • Shanreagh 2.2

      The Govt has set out conditions for engagement. Following the standard playbook of cease and desist from your illegal acts and we will engage…..actually a cross party group will engage.

      So the ball is in the protestors court. So how do you think would be a good way to get the protestors to take up this offer?

      PS Why do you think that stating a fact is name calling? New one on me.

      • Andrew Miller 2.2.1

        Because we all know the extent to which ‘Nazi’ has been debased in the discourse, that it’s possible to be far right and hold dreadful views yet not be a ‘Nazi’, and that it’s just a meaningless bit of self righteous performance.

        I find it bizarre people can’t see how chucking out such an emotive term undermines the very thing they’d claim to be trying achieve, namely drawing attention to people who hold far right views well beyond any normal political parameters.
        There’s clearly countless people down there who aren’t Nazis and most people know that, describing the protest as a collective under that term is just likely to get people to roll their eyes and ignore you.

        • McFlock 2.2.1.1

          Arps tried to get there so is at the picton one, action zealandia are there, apparently national front too, Chapman's at the chch one.

          Dunno what proportion it takes for the protest to deserve the moniker, but it ain't all love and mung beans.

          • weka 2.2.1.1.1

            Arps and Chapman are at the Chch one.

            But I've been looking for the evidence of actual Nazis at Parliament, and am struggling.

            Action Zealandia filmed from Bowen house early one. What's the evidence they're physically present at the camp?

            The Nazi symbols that many were saying were there, I've only just realised that they probably mean the signs where people are accusing the government of being Nazis. I can't find anything other than that. Doesn't mean it's not there, but it's not obvious.

            Not sure we can call CounterSpin Nazis.

            Far right and/or Nazi involvement online is a different thing (still important).

            • weka 2.2.1.1.1.1

              I'm trying to write a post about the problem btw (and why it's a problem even if the numbers are low), so if you have any links or images, it would be much appreciated.

              • McFlock

                Godfery has some examples, e.g. Ute slogan described and photo further down thread. Not going to repeat the word, you can read it yourself.

                • weka

                  what makes you think the ute belongs to a Nazi instead of someone else who hates Jewish people?

                  If you want to use 'Nazi' loosely as a more catchall term, it would be good to know. I'm talking about people that have a specific belief system.

                  • McFlock

                    Seriously?

                    • weka

                      yes. There are a lot of people in NZ with anti-Jewish sentiment who aren't Nazis. They're far right, or they're bigots. I'm asking you why you think that van belongs to a Nazi, just spell it out.

                      Or, if you are using the word Nazi in a looser sense, just say and then I will know what you mean.

                      I did a google and twitter search earlier for pictures of Nazi signage at the protest. All I could find was protestors calling Ardern a Nazi. So I'm asking now for the evidence because I want to see what people are on about.

                      I have zero doubt that white supremacists have their sticky little fingers all over this. But I also am suspecting that much of the Nazi imagery and messaging accusation is based on not a lot.

                    • McFlock

                      And yet the ones who are antisemitic enough to trash Jewish grave markers leave more nazi grafitti than white power slogans.

                      Hey, it could be some completely non-nazi anti-semite. But I think the odds are against it.

              • roblogic

                Here's a few. Definitely leaning more towards "shitshow" rather than "freedom festival"

            • Nic the NZer 2.2.1.1.1.2

              The suggestion by parliamentary security was that the photo was not taken by Action Zealandia themselves, that they had got hold of it online. But there were some comments by them that they knew of members present in the photo (or protest at least) at the time.

              • weka

                parliamentary security said they recognised members of AZ in the protest?

                • Nic the NZer

                  No, AZ said online they recognized members of AZ at the protest. Parliamentary security said the images were cribbed online and not taken by members of AZ.

                  This was in the stuff article about the change in security protocols at the time, though I am recalling my reading of those details now without checking them against the article.

                  My impression is that a lot of these elements have left the Wellington protest and are only attending the local versions. The Wellington one has been trying to recover its image, because it made a bunch of wrong impressions to begin with (threatening media was particularly dumb). They are now internally policing what people can express at the Wellington one a lot more carefully.

                  • Nic the NZer

                    On further reading, it appears AZ did have access to the construction site as a member was working there, and another video was posted (exposing that the police commissioner didn't know where a video came from was worth one of their members jobs) and the person no longer works for the construction company operating there.

          • Andrew Miller 2.2.1.1.2

            My comment makes clear I think there’s clearly a far right presence and dismissing it as a tiny fraction is deluded.

            However, I still think describing the protest as ‘Nazi’ is little more than posturing. It adds nothing to our understanding and just makes it harder for people to understand the nature of who’s actually there, what they believe and why it puts them outside the realms of normal politics.

    • mickysavage 2.3

      I don't think this blog will be on the protestors reading lists.

      The polls say no such thing apart from suggesting that support on the right is heading the same way as support for the Republicans in the US where it is increasingly shrill and views are increasingly polarised.

      Right now is the time to buckle down and deal with Omicron. This is a side show. Anyone demanding that the fire service should sit down and debate the use of water instead of fighting fires has some serious issues to deal with.

      • Enough is Enough 2.3.1

        Its probably not on many of their reading lists but your narrative is certainly not unique. It is being used by government ministers to discredit this mob so they will be hearing it, and it will be making them more determined. Name calling never really works.

        If the government's only focus at the moment is delaing with Omicron, then we as a country are fucked. There are other issues that require their focus. Housing affordability anyone https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/money/2022/02/housing-affordability-in-new-zealand-plummets-to-all-time-low.html

        These protestors are wrong in my view and they certainly represent only a small fringe minority. But if you want to move them on, framing a diverse group as far right nazis (when the vast majority are anything but) needs to end, and some positive dialogue needs to begin.

        • mickysavage 2.3.1.1

          Positive dialogue with a group whose members include people proposing that the last election was rigged and that Politicians and media should be put on trial? Or others who think that vaccines are some sort of World Government dictated DNA altering poison? How do you think this positive dialogue would occur?

          • Enough is Enough 2.3.1.1.1

            Perhaps stop inferring they are all nazis. That would be a positive start

            • McFlock 2.3.1.1.1.1

              Indeed. I prefer the phrasing "some nazis, and people who are happy to stand alongside nazis"

              • Enough is Enough

                The you clearly don't understand, or have any ideas, why these 'nazi' sympathysers will be there for months

            • Craig H 2.3.1.1.1.2

              To paraphrase a quote, 1 Nazi protesting with 10 other people is 11 Nazis protesting. It's hardly surprising that people looking at the protests and nazi messaging and imagery draw an inference that it's neo-nazis.

      • weka 2.3.2

        I don't think this blog will be on the protestors reading lists.

        I disagree. There are obviously protest supporters and anti-mandate people commenting here, the readership will be larger.

        I also disagree that it's a side show. While I think the protest is wrong simple on the grounds of omicron, and the abuse and nazi support needs to be addressed immediately, the people there matter just like the rest of us. When this protest ends, the will still exist in society. The potential for further radicalisation is large, as is the potential for their actions to get worse including if we have a worsening pandemic in the months ahead.

        I don't think MPs should meet with them while death threats are being made, but I also don't think we should be writing them off.

        • mickysavage 2.3.2.1

          I agree Weka that there needs to be a debate about continuation of the mandates, probably in two months time when the Omicron wave is hopefully fading.

          I still scratch my head about why the police have allowed the roads to be blocked by parked cars. Every protest that I have been on where there has been temporary blocking of intersections or roads the police response has always been immediate and direct.

          Allowing the road blockage to have continued for so long has made this situation far worse.

          • weka 2.3.2.1.1

            that the police aren't dealing with low hanging fruit like those Beehive basement entrances, or the single tent in front a govt doorway is the most bizarre thing that has happened. I'm pretty good at thinking through why something is happening, but this one has me stumped.

            • weka 2.3.2.1.1.1

              otoh, maybe they are and it's just not being reported. This is one of the problems with news by twitter, lack of continuity and follow up.

            • Blazer 2.3.2.1.1.2

              I saw a vid today of an access way filled with ..hay!

              You would think just reclaiming some of the occupied area and confining the protest would be a good starting point.

          • Cricklewood 2.3.2.1.2

            I think there was an intel failure, the protest was reasonably well broadcast but essentially mocked and belittled on its way to Wellington.

            Reality was no one in power realized q how organized and determined the participant's are / were the number of supporters on the over bridges in Auckland as it came through should have raised some eyebrows as should have the reports of hundreds of vehicles enroute to Wellington as should have what happened in Canada.

            The smart play would have been to close the roads around parliament before the convoy arrived. To late now.

            and yeah I'm firmly of the opinion mandates are now doing way more societal harm than good, there's a growing risk its going to get very ugly. If that makes me a Neo Nazi…

            • weka 2.3.2.1.2.1

              that doesn't make you a neo-nazi. The problem is whether you will stand alongside neo-nazis at a protest (literally and/or figuratively), and to what extent you will address the problem of neo-nazis in that movement.

              • Cricklewood

                Absolutely, just making the point that some on the left are very quick to label people based on their support for the protest.

                From what I can see there are more Maori at the protest than white supremacists.

                I cant imagine someone like Marama Fox would attend if it was a hotbed of Nazis

                • joe90

                  I cant imagine someone like Marama Fox would attend if it was a hotbed of Nazis

                  A natural home.

                  //

                  Fox's business, Marama Fox Consultancy Group Tapui, was set up in October 2017 – after the Māori Party failed to return to Parliament – with the purpose of launching a venture to build environmentally friendly, affordable homes – specifically for Māori.

                  But no money came in, despite Fox using her name and public persona, to secure goods and services for the business on credit.

                  Self-employed Rotorua travel agent Amy Turuta is owed about $45,000 by Fox's business.

                  The chances of Turuta recovering any of the debt was "not sounding great", she said.

                  "I guess we're running out of options and running out of hope."

                  Last year, Turuta said she felt "a little bit stink" for Fox, as she hadn't made it back into Parliament, her marriage had broken up, her business had gone under, and she was having a rough time.

                  And earlier this year, Fox pleaded guilty to a drink driving charge.

                  "I think I've got to the point now where she's just a liar," Turuta said.

                  "She obviously doesn't care at all about any of the people she owes money to. My sympathy to her has gone."

                  https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/116190972/my-sympathy-has-gone-liquidators-on-the-hunt-for-marama-fox

                  • weka

                    wow, weirdly judgemental. Whatever ill opinion you have of Fox, tying her to Nazis with no evidence is just fucked up.

                    • Julian Richards

                      As is tying everyone apposed to the current mandates as "Nazi supported anti vaxer(s)".

                      The angry slogans foolishly being attached to describe the majority of NZ citizens protesting are so boring and stupid! It's juvenile….!

                    • joe90

                      Nope, tying her to the wingnuts, con artists, chancers, perennial malcontents, gullible fuckwits and agenda driven ninnies turning up to indulge in this narcissistic, performative bullshit.

                    • Julian Richards []

                      Any other angry name calling you need to vent? Get it all out here on a public blog 👍

                      You don't seem very happy in life yourself! Is this a mirror to your own dark internal place or what, far out!

                      "wingnuts, con artists, chancers, perennial malcontents, gullible fuckwits and agenda driven ninnies turning up to indulge in this narcissistic, performative bullshit."

                      #angryslogans

                    • weka

                      Probably should have said that instead then Joe.

                • McFlock

                  From what I can see there are more Maori at the protest than white supremacists.

                  Does the proportion actually matter?

              • The Chairman

                One would think people coming together to stand for one cause would be admired.

                Government mandates is what has brought this very diverse group to stand together.

                Pointing out the most extreme amongst them serves no purpose other than to divide and misrepresent what they have come together for. And one wonders why the anti-mandate narrative has been lost.

                Additionally, it also serves to tar them via association. Moreover, to help justify extreme moves to quell them.

              • Critical Thinking

                It must be difficult believing that your twisted opinion trumps every other person in nz. Your suggestions that a lawful protest should be broken up because they question govt policy is exactly what the nazis did – suppress opposition. Sadly your attitude is taken as right while you ignore the very basic principles of that underpin our human rights. Why are you so angry? If you bother to read outside of your confirmation bias or look at overseas data it cannot be argued that omicron is anything more than a cold or mild flu. If that experimental vaccine you took to protect yourself doesn't work for you why would it protect me? There has never been a vaccine that lasted for only 3 months, the idea is laughable. Have you seen the long term studies on people who have been jabbed 3, 4, 5 times? No because nobody knows. All of that risk to try and save yourself from a cold. Your poor thing.

            • Andrew Miller 2.3.2.1.2.2

              That’s all very nice, but ignores the extent to which it’s clear the convoy was hijacked by those with agendas that have little to do with just the mandates (the nature of the subsequent behaviour seems to pretty clear evidence of that).
              If using Nazi is misrepresenting them, then so is focusing on ‘mandates’.
              It’s patently obvious that even if the mandates were removed but other reasonable health measures were left in place a significant number of the occupiers wouldn’t be satisfied.
              Also, you’re welcome to the opinion that mandates are doing more harm than good but evidence that that’s true is another thing and groups of people choosing to engage in criminal behaviour isn’t evidence I’d find persuasive (happy to consider anything that genuinely engages the question and is honest about any counter factual).

              • The Chairman

                That’s all very nice, but ignores the extent to which it’s clear the convoy was hijacked by those with agendas that have little to do with just the mandates

                Rubbish, mandates are clearly still the main issue.

                If the convoy was hijacked by those with agendas that have little to do with mandates it would have shown in their recently released demands.

                • Robert Guyton

                  "The mandates" have finally emerged as a publicly-acceptable issue, following a smeared, messy mish-mash of illegal, idiotic, unintelligible demands from diverse and divergent groups ranging from the despicable to the irresponsible that set the convoy in motion.

                  • mauī

                    I think you've been reading too much pravda… The convoy mission statement has been public for some time, well before people got to parliament.

                    • McFlock

                      They said they were going to block several streets for well over a week and abuse passers-by? Gosh.

                    • mauī

                      Yeah and I suppose the goal of the last Greenpeace protest at parliament was to abseil off the roof and pose a security risk 🙄

                    • McFlock

                      The only security risk from greenpeace is if a rope breaks or they manage a sit in.

                      Greenpeace tie bowlines, not nooses. And they tend to not spit at bus drivers, even of the deisel buses.

                • Andrew Miller

                  You mean the demands issue to remove all COVID measures? I do find it cute that you seem to really believe if the mandates were removed but other measures left in place this would end.

                  • The Chairman

                    You mean the demands issue to remove all COVID measures?

                    That doesn't show me the agenda has been taken over.

                    That looks like a negotiation strategy.

          • mikesh 2.3.2.1.3

            Apparently the tow truck operators are refusing the business: some because they support the protest, others out of fear of retaliation.

    • weka 2.4

      The Nazi supported anti vaxer protest seems to be growing.

      And you wonder why its growing with idiotic inflammatory lines like that.

      It's not idiotic, it's a statement of fact. There are far right, white supremacist organisations and individuals both involved and giving crucial support. And while there are people who are vaxxed there, the anti-mandate narrative has been lost in part because of the number of people who are anti-vax and down the conspiracy rabbit hole.

      Why do you think the fundamentalist Christians are backing this protest?

      Maybe mickey's sentence is inflammatory, but only mildly so.

      • Enough is Enough 2.4.1

        Its extremely inflamatory to a school teacher or nurse who have lost their job simply because they exercised their legal right to not get the jab.

        I think they are crazy for not getting the jab, but can't you see how the current rhetoric is only going to strengthen their resolve and prolonge the protest.

        One or two crazies are not representative of the vast majority of people at that protest.

        • weka 2.4.1.1

          Its extremely inflamatory to a school teacher or nurse who have lost their job simply because they exercised their legal right to not get the jab.

          How is it inflammatory?

          I think they are crazy for not getting the jab, but can't you see how the current rhetoric is only going to strengthen their resolve and prolonge the protest.

          I agree, I just don't think micky's point as ott. The problem here is that alongside the anti-protest rhetoric there is a large amount of denial from the pro-protest side about the problems.

          One or two crazies are not representative of the vast majority of people at that protest.

          It's not one or two crazies. It's not most people at the protest either, but minimising the problems is a form of denial.

          Do you know who CounterSpin is and what its reach is with the countercultures involved in the protest? Why has the noose still been hanging in the tree all week if it's only one or two crazies?

        • mpledger 2.4.1.2

          How can we ask parents, by point of law, to send their kids to school to be taught by unvaccinated teachers? How can we ask patients, especially the old and the immunocompromised, to attend hospital to be looked after by an unvaccinated nurse/doctor/etc?

          Parents need to know that their kids are being looked after as safely as we can make it. Patients need to know that their stay in hospital is as safe as we can make it.

          • Andrew Miller 2.4.1.2.1

            This a 1,000 times!

            If we’re going to discuss rights and freedoms, that has to be everyone’s and include people’s right to places of work education/enjoyment they feel safe.
            The idea that it’s unreasonable or irrelevant to feel unsafe from those choosing not to be vaccinated simply isn’t a serious argument.

          • The Chairman 2.4.1.2.2

            Parents need to know that their kids are being looked after as safely as we can make it. Patients need to know that their stay in hospital is as safe as we can make it.

            Considering the magnitude of waning vaccine protection and overall lack of full efficacy, daily testing would be a safer bet at keeping people safe.

            • mpledger 2.4.1.2.2.1

              Who is actually going to analyse the tests (if they are PCR)? The people processing the testing are pretty much close to capacity?

              If you mean RAT tests, then community spread is still not wide enough to make them worthwhile – the ratio of false positives to true positives must still be well over 100 to 1 . They are only worthwhile at the moment for high risk jobs e.g. border workers. In Australia (maybe just Victoria?), kids have to take a RAT test twice a week in order to go to school but there are all sorts of tiktoks about how to falsify testing.

              • The Chairman

                I was thinking of PCR saliva testing, which is faster, cheaper, and less resource intensive.

          • Enough is Enough 2.4.1.2.3

            That's a valid point.

            But can't you step back for a second and think sheesh it is understandable that people will protest if they losr their jobs for exercising their legal rights under the NZBORA.

            • mpledger 2.4.1.2.3.1

              The grounded kiwis are angry because they can't get into MIQ quick enough, the anti-mandate people are angry because they can't go unvaccinated and hold down public facing jobs. They seem to think the rest of use are being mean to them for no good reason. In a global pandemic, with a virus that kills people, there are life and death reasons why there are strict rules about public health.

              • Enough is Enough

                Yes I know why the decsions have been made. I'm not arguing with you on that.

                But I can see why people who have lost their livlihoods for exercising their legal rights are a tad pissed off with those decsions.

            • Andrew Miller 2.4.1.2.3.2

              Protest yes, engage in illegal behaviour, effectively use children to protect themselves from the ramifications of it, harass, intimate and threaten people who don’t share their views…no.

        • mikesh 2.4.1.3

          They seem to be ignoring their employer's right not to employ an unvaccinated person, on grounds of staff safety.

          • Patricia 2 2.4.1.3.1

            My grandson just completed his apprenticeship and worked all day yesterday with a person who seemed unwell but claimed to be fine. This morning worker rang in to say "sorry -positive covid test result". He had continued life as usual – working after having a covid test and also hadn't been honest with his boss that he was unvaccinated. So grandson sent home from work ; has now had Covid test and has to isolate. Five other members in the household also affected. Employer now considering his options – thinking he might dismiss worker 'cos honesty obviously not one of his attributes.

            • McFlock 2.4.1.3.1.1

              Fuck.

              It's actually one of the things I'd hoped we'd get out of, not just for covid but infectious disease generally. That "soldier on" bullshit just drags everyone down.

      • Pataua4life 2.4.2

        Fark. If your calling it a statement of fact they are Neonazi's. This ain't 1930.

        • solkta 2.4.2.1

          Surely there weren't neo-nazis in the 1930s? Wouldn't they have just been nazis?

          • Pataua4life 2.4.2.1.1

            I think you will find the Nazi's were a political party of the 1930's Germany that morphed into what we saw through 1936-1945. Most for some reason were dead after that. Most certainly dead by now.

            So Neo as in New

            • solkta 2.4.2.1.1.1

              I'm not sure what you are saying. Do you think there were neo-nazis in the 1930s? A yes/no answer might clear things up.

              • Pataua4life

                no – only proper Nazis'

                So you can't call people Nazi's today if you are making a statement of "fact"

                they are Neonazis'

                • McFlock

                  If one has to parse between "nazi" and "neonazi", they're probably not nice people who deserve that particular effort.

                • solkta

                  The "neo" is often used to refer a reworking of theory rather than just a new group. Neo-Marxists are people who have reworked Marxist theory. Those who are orthodox Marxists are still called Marxists.

            • mikesh 2.4.2.1.1.2

              National Socialism was a movement that, while it embraced socialism, rejected the Marxists' internationalism. The Nazis were, or claimed to be, national socialists.

              • Craig H

                The original Nazi party was an amalgam of various interests including socialists and the working class in order to get votes and support, hence the name, but the Night of the Long Knives wiped the left wing of the party out (literally) leaving only the nationalist, fascist, anti-Semitic, anti-disabled, anti-LGBTQ+ etc part.

      • Julian Richards 2.4.3

        On one hand pro mandate citizens express that the minority (non-jabbed) shouldn't be allowed to undermine the effort of the majority (jabbed).

        And then hypocriticaly say the minority of citizens protesting (far right-neo nazi) represent the majority of citizens apposed to and protesting the mandates?

        Is this whole cultural episode selfish or selfless? Are the mandates to protect minorities or majorities? What is going on here….?

        • McFlock 2.4.3.1

          And then hypocriticaly say the minority of citizens protesting (far right-neo nazi) represent the majority of citizens apposed to and protesting the mandates?

          Nope.

          But the majority seem to be happy to stand beside them.

          • Julian Richards 2.4.3.1.1

            "Nope"… What?

            Again you dismiss the stupidity of the hypocritical nature of these angry slogans and how they're attached and labelled so flippantly and stupidly. @McFlock my kind sir, you represent the current state of the nation in a nutshell… Blinkered and angry at your own individual immaturity.

            • McFlock 2.4.3.1.1.1

              Hypocritical?

              I'm not sure you know what the word means.

              If I've protested beside nazis and other far right extremists for over a week, you'd have a point. But there are limits to the people I will stand beside.

              • Julian Richards

                "Nope"… What?

                So the minority represents the majority now? Or does the majority speak for the minority? Can you not see past your small minded viewpoint… You seem so confused @McFlock. It's bizarre!

                Are the mandates a selfish or selfless act. Figure it out.

                • McFlock

                  Nope. Nothing to do with "represents". If the majority stand beside a nazi, the majority are standing beside a nazi. Doesn't make them all nazis. Immediately.

                  But they'll tolerate nazis.

                  They'll let the nazi tag along, because it makes their crowd look bigger.

                  They're happy to stand beside a nazi, because it suits their own ends.

                  Doesn't usually work out too well.

                  Nazis aren't controllable.

                  They won't go away when you're done using them for your own ends.

                  They're using you as much as you are using them.

                  They sow instability, because that creates fear, and fear gets them recruits. Nazis are cowards. Steeped in fear and victimhood.

                  They'll make the host group more fearful. Fear is contagious. The group will accommodate more extreme tactics – standing around slogans like "hang 'em high". And not just as an analogy – meaning it, because they are so afraid. It becomes a group of nazis.

                  Don't stand beside nazis. It ends badly.

                  • Julian Richards

                    So you're 100% sure and can prove that no neo-nazis support your viewpoint of both vaccination and the enforced mandates? Wouldn't want to support and stand tall next a neo-nazi now would you @McFlock!!!! Be careful…. Your argument and rational may fall to pieces in front of your eyes!

                    • McFlock

                      I can be 100% sure I've never stayed at a protest where the far right, of any flavour, were visibly present and on my side.

                      But hey, maybe that's just me.

                    • Julian Richards []

                      But… You can't be seen to support a neo-nazi that has the same viewpoint as you, how could you? At a protest or not… How can you criticise the majority of those involved in the protest because of a small minority present, when there will be a similar small minority of neo-nazis who support and stand tall next to you and your view point in spirit (hint)… of vaccination and enforced mandates! Do you get it yet @McFlock? This is much much bigger than your selfishness, and others, immature tribalism. Think bigger and outside of yourself!

                    • McFlock

                      It's not about whether they agree. It's about whether you, personally, will normalise the participation of the ultra-right in the body politic. Nazis, white supremacists, anti-semites, all of 'em.

                      If you're happy to stand with them to make whatever political point, that's your call. But you're happy to stand with the ultra-right.

                      To put it another way – if all the non-ultra-right in wellington had refused to stand beside the ultra-right, the small protest would have been cleaned up days ago. Then the non-ultra-right could come back and make their point, the the ultra-right would have "keep away from parliament" as a bail condition, and the protest would be sweetness and light.

                      But because folks were happy to stand beside the ultra-right, they protected the the ultra-right amongst their number, and the the ultra-right are still there.

                    • Julian Richards []

                      The same as some 'ultra right neo-nazis' may and will support and stand by your views… I guess that's why you're still here, with blinkers on.

                      @McFlock you still don't get it do you. Your rational of trying to shame discredit the majority of non ultra right individuals is juvenile and immature… The same tactics as legacy media. On one hand its said that the minority should not undo the work of the majority, then you use the minority to undo the work of the majority (protesting). The rational of this is hypocritical.

                    • McFlock

                      Meh. Discredit? The protestors don't care. Otherwise they wouldn't stand beside nazis and their ilk.

                      If an arsehole stands beside me, I move. That way I don't get covered in shit.

                    • Julian Richards []

                      @McFlock so you don't believe there are any, as you say, "ultra right, neo-nazis" who 'support' your views on 'vaccination mandates'? Are you really that naive? Come on mate, your argument is factually baseless, irrational and immature. Give it up!

                      Start by stopping the labelling of this protest 'group' with with your angry slogans to try dismiss the group as a whole because of a few bad eggs, it's pathetic. There's bad eggs on both sides! Rise above and overcome your deluded individual selflessness!

                      The mandates are not justified now, you know this. Try find the courage to admit you're individual selfish position must 'move with the time' at hand.

                    • McFlock

                      so you don't believe there are any, as you say, "ultra right, neo-nazis" who 'support' your views on 'vaccination mandates'?

                      That's not my argument though, is it. I can look at a sky and think "the sky is blue". A nazi in the same town can look at the same sky and think "the sky is blue". That's not me standing beside nazis, is it.

                      But if I turn up to a protest to demand the sky turn blue, and a nazi turns up to the same protest in support, then I'm standing beside a nazi.

                      So I need to choose: do I stand beside the nazi because my belief about the colour of the sky is more important, or do I leave if the rest of the protest accepts the nazi as part of their group?

                      That's all I'm saying. There was a choice to be made by the non-far-right protestors, and they made their choice. And yes, I think the option they selected says a lot about them.

          • Critical Thinking 2.4.3.1.2

            There is nothing to support your false narrative but your own delusions. If this was a nazi movement and is supported by over 30% of the population we would have the largest nazi support on the planet. Nope

            The use of these abuse labels is the lowest form of argument. You make false claims and then go on to use them to justify your position. It's a straw man, he does not exist.

            I have asked several of you to provide reasons for the mandates but all you seem capable of is character smear by lies.

            It's like a broken record.

            Why do you support mandates? They are the closest thing to nazi in this whole debate.

            • McFlock 2.4.3.1.2.1

              I have a funny thing about looking at death tolls overseas and thinking "that could have been us".

              Didn't say it was a nazi movement. Just that the protestors are happy to stand beside nazis.

              • Julian Richards

                As some 'neo-nazis' will be happy to stand beside and support' your perspective'. Get it yet????

                • McFlock

                  They can stand wherever they want, within the laws of humanity and nature.

                  But wherever they stand, I won't stand with them, because that is my choice. I will not be part of their crowd.

                  If you think the vaccine mandate is more important than not standing beside nazis, that's your choice.

                  • Julian Richards

                    If you believe there are no ultra right neo-nazis that stand with your perspective/crowd of enforced covid mandates you really are delusional @McFlock.

                    Your blinkered rational is naive.

                    • McFlock

                      If you think that having a common opinion with someone on the other side of town and with zero contact (or even knowledge that they exist) counts as "standing with" them, then you are the limp embodiment of "slacktivism".

                      These "protesters" are literally standing alongside violent far- right wing extremists who are making terroristic threats.

                    • Julian Richards []

                      Give it up @McFlock

                      Your rational fall apart for everyone here in this public blog. As you said limp 'slactivism'

                      You clearly want (as expressed in your written thoughts here) a homogeneous single minded society, so boring and machine like.

                      For the record I do not support neo-nazis idealism in any form or fashion, I support an end to these unjust and outdated mandates, as much as the diverse gatherings of those around NZ.

                    • McFlock

                      I support an end to these unjust and outdated mandates, as much as the diverse gatherings of those around NZ.

                      And if you attend those diverse gatherings you're happy to literally stand beside ultra-right neonazi types to express that belief.

                      For the record I do not support neo-nazis idealism in any form or fashion,

                      Except you will normalise their participation in the body politic by literally standing beside them at protests, and thereby act as a shield for them by adding to their number.

                    • Julian Richards []

                      @McFlock you've embarrassed yourself enough here (as usual) with your rediculous irrational argument.

                      I or anyone else do not have to align in every way to oppose the unjust and outdated mandates. I don t have to stand next to a Labour or national supporter, a pro life or pro abortion supporter etc etc to stand together against these mandates. Your 'blue sky' homogeneous worldview in your head is immature and little more than machine like idealism. Get over yourself. Your so boring and predictable. The metaverse is a perfect place for you to exist.

                    • McFlock

                      Nobody has to do anything.

                      If you think the differences between you and the qanon/nationalfront crowd is simply "do not align in every way" and pales into insignificance when it comes down to [check notes] keeping unvaccinated people away from high-risk areas and occupations, fine, stand by them. Your choice.

                      If you're happy to stand beside them, that's entirely down to you. But if you're at the protests in wellington or chch, you're happy to literally stand beside the far-right violent fringe.

                    • Julian Richards []

                      Priceless, now you're trying to align and label me/us/them/we the world that doesn't align with you and your beliefs with 'qanon'… You're a delusional and an irrational nut. You've once again confirmed this here on a public blog for all to see. Well done.

                    • McFlock

                      All I'm saying is that if one is standing beside a nazi to protest something together with them, then obviously one is more concerned with that than standing beside nazis.

                      If that being pointed out seems to be some sort of attempt to do damage to one's cause, maybe the damage is being done by the act of standing beside nazis rather than a simple statement of that fact.

                    • Julian Richards []

                      For Christ's sake @McFlock there will be alt right neo-nazis that support your views and perspectives!

                      Whats your next label/angry slogan to dismiss those who see differently to you?

                    • McFlock

                      If there are nazis who agree with some of my views, I won't be literally standing beside them to express those views. That's my choice. I feel that legitimising nazis as a normal part of the body politic is one of the worst political actions one can take, so I make that choice.

                      If people have other priorities and would prefer to stand beside nazis if that's what it takes to express their views, then that's their choice.

                      It's a clear choice that a whole chunk of protestors are making: their opposition to the current public health measures is more important to them than their opposition to nazis.

                      Not sure why simply stating the truism that "someone being willing to stand beside nazis to make a point means someone is willing to stand beside nazis" deserves exclamation marks.

                    • Julian Richards []

                      In your blue sky mind everyone protesting must not protest if there's at least one (or a few) alt right individual there? Again, remind yourself that there will be alt right neo-nazis that support and applaud you and your perspective, irrelevant if in the presence of you or not with your 'slactivism' or not, there'll be some neo-nazis that support you with zeal… And as you've argued blue in the face (embarrassing) they do not represent you and your individual perspectives.

                      I bet you still don't get it do you? Next you'll be labelling everyone who's protesting as antisemitic. All you seem to have to offer is angry slogans and labels to dismiss this group of 'individuals' protesting the unjust nature of the mandates. You identify a few bad eggs (all society has this) and dismiss them because they're in the presence of a few bad eggs. What does this mean for a diverse society in your blue sky mind? To you the minority represents the majorities ethics, and yet when the minority against the mandates protests the unjust nature of them, you say the majority rules. Give it up, your rational is small minded bonkers…. Again.

                    • McFlock

                      In your blue sky mind everyone protesting must not protest if there's at least one (or a few) alt right individual there?

                      No shoulds or musts involved. It's a simple statement of fact: if one believes in a cause so much that one is prepared to stand beside nazis, one is prepared to stand by nazis.

                      One can minimise it by calling them "bad eggs" – heck, call them scallywags if one wants, or cheeky little nazi devils.

                      It doesn't change whom one is standing beside.

                      If standing beside nazis is unpalatable enough for people to not do it, what does this mean for diversity? It increases diversity. Cut out the nazis, everyone else can flourish. Oh, some groups might be bigots agin one or two other groups in general, but nazis go after everyone not like them. And they mean it. When they become an accepted part of society, other people get pushed out. And the nazis keep pushing until everyone is a nazi. Heck, I thought clownvoynz was about mandates, now some speakers claim it's about removing the government – and getting more applause than the folks trying to just concentrate on the mandates. See how that works?

                      I don't know how many people in the protest are antisemitic. But I know the nazis at the protests are, and that other protesters are prepared to stand beside nazis because vaccine records are so terrible.

                      But hey, if someone thinks a vaccine record is worse than standing beside a nazi, that's up to them. Their choice entirely.

                    • Julian Richards []

                      And you still can't recognise the fact that there'll be alt right neo-nazis that support and applaud your perspective and opinions.

                      Still don't get it do you.

                      Keep dismissing the entire group of individuals because of the few bad ones. Such rediculous stubborn logic, that's again done so much more damage than necessary. You really do represent the big problem in NZ at present @McFlock

                    • McFlock

                      They might happen to share my opinion on something, but I won't stand beside them to express that opinion.

                      There's a fundamental difference between the two possibilities. Only one of them involves me accepting a nazi into my company.

                    • Julian Richards []

                      And you still can't accept it… You're one and the same.

                      And best of all, you've shown it here on a public blog for the all to see.

                      Open your mind.

                    • McFlock

                      What I won't accept is the option of legitemising nazis by standing beside them in a protest.

                      Others do. That's their choice.

                      I suspect you're never going to understand that standing beside nazis is never the optimal choice to make.

                    • Julian Richards []

                      And you'll clearly never understand that there'll be alt right neo-nazis that support and applaud your perspective… Clearly!

                      And that's why you represent the current problem in society/NZ.

                      Well done for revealing the real issue.

                    • McFlock

                      Ok, let's try something different.

                      You're at a protest about something random, like the colour of the latest lego block. You care a bit, but bothering to turn up was a close call.

                      You notice that the skinhead next to you is wearing swastika badges. I'm assuming you'll stay, anyway, so let's continue with the scenario.

                      You notice a few other swastika-wearing skinheads in the crowd, clearly neonazis. Do you leave?

                      The protesters hand a mic to the next speaker – who is also a neonazi. But the nazi just complains about the new lego block colour. Do you leave?

                      The next speaker isn't obviously a nazi, until they start with antisemitic language about who changed the block colour.

                      Next speaker is normal, calls for love.

                      Speaker after that is also a nazi.

                      At what point do you leave? At what point is the rally about lego blocks, and at what point does it become a nazi rally? At what point does it become more important than the reason you went there, that you're literally standing beside nazis?

                    • Julian Richards []

                      My gosh, you must have been (and still are) the most boring kid to play with lego with… All one colour and one shape. Boring! Use you mind to step outside 'yourself'.

                      Such a rediculously boring analogy. Plastic bricks that you only intend to build one shape from one colour from. Your thought processes are the the problem @McFlock

                    • McFlock

                      Choose whichever issue you want. At what point would you leave the rally? Would you leave?

                    • Julian Richards []

                      The mandates are unjust and unwarranted… Its that simple.

                      Back to your boring square shapes of one colour, if all you can manage to recreate is what you see in front of you. Your homogeneous 'blue sky' mind.

                      Be careful though, some alt right neo-nazis might like to play with you with your lack of creativity.

                    • weka

                      so you can't, or won't answer McFlock's question.

                    • Julian Richards []

                      I don't need to be be drawn into his details of his singular blinkered mind, that's were the corruption exists.

                      The mandates are unjust and unwarranted, it's that simple.

                    • lprent []

                      The mandates are unjust and unwarranted, it’s that simple.

                      That is an simpletons assertion. It just means you are probably too much of an ignorant idiot to muster an argument against their legal use.

                      That is also an assertion. But one that would be easy to substantiate. I bet you don’t know the legal basis of thr mandates, the history about why they entered our legal system or thr medical basis for their usage.

                      All you appear to have is a habit for doing the same as fondling your dick and declaring it to be 12 inches long – despite all evidence to the contrary.

                    • Julian Richards []

                      I've held a mirror up to the rediculous rational.

                      And in return you've gotten angry, started name calling etc.

                      Your immature reaction is Priceless, and sad. But I've read this from you many many times. It's you.

                    • Julian Richards []

                      I've held a mirror up to the rediculous rational.

                      You're angry reaction of name calling is a reflection of your inner anger and immaturity… Its Priceless, and sad. But I've read this many times from you.

                    • McFlock

                      I've held a mirror up to the rediculous rational.

                      funny

                  • The Chairman

                    Skinhead next to you is wearing swastika badges.

                    Can you show me a skinhead at the protest that is wearing swastika badges?

                    How would you expect people to know if the person next to them isn't openly identifying in that way?

                    • McFlock

                      Oh dude, we're beyond that. I'm just looking for the point Julian would leave a protest as the rally got worse and worse and worse.

                      I'm sure everyone's walked into a room at some time and realised gradually that they need to leave – wrong lecture hall, wrong bar, multilevel marketing presentation/party, room full of a bad crowd, an unexpected orgy not to one's taste.

                      Feel free to give your own answer.

                      As you stand in this protest about [whatever], and the speakers get more and more extreme and less and less concerned with what you thought the protest was about, at what point would you leave?

                    • Shanreagh

                      Zooom right over your head, The Chairman.

                      I doubt you will get an answer from the Chairman. The fact that he not able to speedily post his ethical position speaks volumes.

                      For what it is worth McFlock

                      'You notice that the skinhead next to you is wearing swastika badges.'

                      This is when I would leave as I would be suspicious that I had misread the purpose of the protest as I would not have expected to see people wearing swastika badges openly, supporting the same causes as I did. I would think no cause is worth me having to associate with people who openly support Nazis. I have left events early where people have been openly flying the Confederate flag on their cars or cap badges.

                      Putting it into the context of the current protest. If I was anti something and felt drawn to protest I would have left the group as soon as I became aware of the presence of VFF & particularly, Kelvyn Alp/Counterspin. As Counterspin has been involved doing the on-site broadcast since day 1. I would have been long gone by now.

                      Actually as hard as I try I could never imagine actually wanting to join anything as anti science/health/country & its people as this ie not getting vaccinated.

                      I value my integrity and ethical framework too much to want to be associated with this kind of protest.

                  • The Chairman

                    I'm sure everyone's walked into a room at some time and realised gradually that they need to leave…

                    There can be a time to leave at times. But clearly this crowd is growing not leaving in mass.

                    Hence, the protest hasn't got to that stage.

                    Though there is a concern that the longer Jacinda takes to engage and the more the police antagonize, the larger this risk (radicalisation) becomes.

                    So one has to start questioning what kind of mess is Jacinda creating for this country?

                    • McFlock

                      Another one who doesn't want to answer the question. Funny.

                    • Julian Richards []

                      If your referring to my answer… That I gave many times to you, its simply you don't want to see the answer I gave you. There will by some, if not many alt right neo-nazis that support and applaud your perspective on the current covid19 mandates in NZ.

                      The point is, the mandates are no longer justified or warranted considering omicron, both BA.1 and especially the arrival of the BA.2 variant.

                  • The Chairman

                    Are you blind? It was answered.

                    Here it is again

                    There can be a time to leave at times. But clearly this crowd is growing not leaving in mass.

                    Hence, the protest hasn't got to that stage.

                    • McFlock

                      It's a question about a hypothetical rally, where you slowly find that the nazis have more and more involvement. When do you leave – when you spot the first one, or when you figure out all the speakers and most of the crowd are nazis?

                      Whether the crowd is growing is irrelevant to whether you stay, surely?

                    • lprent []

                      …or when you figure out all the speakers and most of the crowd are nazis?

                      The brownshirt quandary. When do you get out? While railing about reparation injustices, or when you start herding neighbours into deathcamps. Depends on your sense of personal morality and will I guess. I tend to work on forethought because I never trust my ability to cold anger

                    • McFlock

                      Yup. I like to think I'd be one of the first to bail, yet there's always the worry that I'll one day look at the skull on my cap and say "hang on, are we the baddies"?

                  • The Chairman

                    Re your hypothetical rally

                    If I went to a rally where everybody was united to one cause and there were one or two around that I could see, it wouldn't bother me.

                    If it became overrun by them, then of course, I would leave.

                    • McFlock

                      It'd bother the heck out of me.

                      The other worry is that if I wait until it's overrun, it might be too late to leave safely.

            • lprent 2.4.3.1.2.2

              Lets assume that the covid-19 vaccines work. Because if you can’t accept that, then there is really is no point to talking to a nutbar who can’t read basic statistics.

              But basically vaccine mandates are exactly the moral and legal equivalent of dealing with irresponsible drunk drivers.

              Mandates keep unvaccinated from being infected by the vaccinated with their usually low viral loads. This decreases the probability of a killing someone else who did vaccinated because a hospital bed being wasted because of someone’s poor personal choices. This is exactly the same as the drunk driver issue who kills someone else on the road because of their poor personal choices. It is why we have criminal charges for dealing with people who repeatably drive drunk or who kill of injure others.

              Mandates keep the unvaccinated from increasing viral loads in confined spaces. This decreases the probability of vaccinated getting more severe infections by reducing the chance of beachhead infections overwhelming immune systems. Again the drunk driver issue about reckless endangerment of others.

              Mandates allow employers and businesses legal cover for taking well known and effective epidemic and pandemic safety measures that reduce the probability of employees or customers from being infected on their premises. This again is the exact equivalent to the way that employers and businesses, if they follow the laws, are legally protected in how they deal with fools who want to drive drunk. The employers and businesses cannot be charged with a various crimes if they don’t serve drunk drivers. They cannot be sued in civil court easily for negligence.

              It also means that other employees and customers go elsewhere to find a safer environment where they are less likely to be infected. I know that I’m not willing to incur additional personal risk by working or being next to someone who wilfully and without adequate reason severely increases my medical risks without my knowledge. That is why

              So my question to you is simple.

              Do you also favour not dealing with drunk drivers with a legal solution? Because it also constrains the freedoms of drivers who drive drunk and kill more responsible drivers and pedestrians. It is the exact equivalent of the vaccine mandates because it reduces the risks to others because of a choice that you but not I choose to take.

              Basically if you can’t answer that point or if you avoid it, then I’m going to just treat you like just another self-entitled idiot who is too lazy to use their brains or to consider the other people that they may impact with their idiotic choices.

              • Julian Richards

                Why do you constantly need to try use analogies that aren't relevant to the Covid-19 mandates to justify your individual thoughts. Stick to the topic…

                Next you'll be swinging your 'every wrinkle is an inch' law experience that you enjoy whipping out.

                • lprent

                  Well I see that you are the master of avoidance behaviours.

                  Do you also favour not dealing with drunk drivers with a legal solution?

                  isn't hard to understand.

                  It also deals with the exactly the same question as health mandates. Even if you didn't know anything about legal principles – are you in favour of removing mandates on drunk driving because it interferes with the drunks freedom to kill or maim others?

                  It can't be that hard to express your opinion on that.

                  After all you are so over-brimming on opinions on everything else. Why are you coy on this one?

    • observer 2.5

      Its time for the name calling to end and some dialogue to begin.

      I agree that fanning the flames doesn't help, and all of us (including me) have a responsibility to be restrained in our online rhetoric, as feelings run high.

      But it's really hard to keep nodding and agreeing with "dialogue" and "engaging" in the abstract when not even the smallest steps are being taken to make that possible on the ground. "Publicly disown death threats" or "move vehicles that are clearly blocking access" or "leave people alone who are nothing to do with the government you are protesting against". These are not tough negotiating points. They shouldn't even BE negotiating points, should they?

      The obvious conclusion is that there is no real desire to make anything happen at all. Is it surprising that patience runs out?

      • Enough is Enough 2.5.1

        Someone has to make the first step.

        But who is better placed to make that first step and negotiate an end to this? A positive, articulate, and usually compassionate Prime Minister (or someone from her cabinet).

        Or a diverse group of maginalised people in our society?

        Mallard should stay the hell out of the way.

        • observer 2.5.1.1

          I don't agree the PM should, but let's work it through.

          PM says "I will ABC, in return you will XYZ".

          What are the missing words? It's not going to be "I will scrap the mandates", so what steps should she take and – crucially – what should happen if the protesters do not agree to take action in return?

          Because we know some will not.

          • Jenny how to get there 2.5.1.1.1

            observer

            18 February 2022 at 10:36 am

            I don't agree the PM should, but let's work it through.

            PM says "I will ABC, in return you will XYZ".

            What are the missing words?

            The missing words are ABC:

            PM says "I will lift the trespass order, and stand down the police"

            And XYZ:

            "In return you will remove all your illegally parked vehicles blocking the public roads"

            In any negotiations you have to give a little to get a little.

            What is it we want?

            We need to be clear.

            The minimum disruption to our capital city should be our main concern and bottom line demand to bring to any negotiations with these protesters.

            The freedom of local businesses to trade and the freedom of city residents and visitors to get about must be returned to us.

            Personally I don't mind if these protesters camp out on the lawn of parliament all winter. That piece of sward is barely used, except by officer workers to eat their lunch and feed the seagulls. Even the MPs barely use it, preferring to make their way into parliament through other entrances.

            In the spirit of give a little get a little

            In exchange for the protesters agreeing to remove all their illegally parked vehicles blocking the roads. The government agrees to drop the trespass order against the protesters camping on the parliament lawn and suspend their parking fines.

            In the negotiations with the protesters, the government could also offer to provide proper toileting facilities in the form of maintained portaloos to stop them shitting all over our war memorial.

            the principle is, give and take, carrot and stick

            If the protesters refuse our bottom line demands and peace offers, The Wellington city council will order the industrial sized forklifts from the Port Of Wellington to come and pick up all the illegally parked vehicles and load them onto low loaders and take them down tot the Port of Wellington, or other secure area, until all their parking fines are paid.

        • mikesh 2.5.1.2

          Mallard should stay the hell out of the way.

          Poor old Trevor. I guess he will never live it down.

        • Andrew Miller 2.5.1.3

          And if a significant number aren't ‘marginalised’ but simply people choosing to hold and act on appalling views that deserve to be condemned?

          What if engagement won’t result in de-escalation but simply embolden them and others like them, that tactics like this work?

          What if a significant portion of the people there aren’t interested in negotiating an end to this?

          Your argument is based on a lot of assumptions I don’t think you can back up.

        • Craig H 2.5.1.4

          The Speaker is responsible for the Parliamentary precinct – staying out of matters to do with a protest and occupation of the Parliamentary lawns isn't consistent with his legislated role.

    • Cricklewood 2.6

      I guess some people see Nazi's everywhere… helps with the protest envy I guess.

  3. Ad 3

    Anyone remember the FOL wanting the waterfront strikers to disavow all membership of the Communist Party? Loathed and hated across all parties including Labour.

    60th anniversary of the 1951 waterfront lockout – YouTube

    Maybe the current lot will outlast 507 days.

    40th anniversary of Bastion Point occupation – YouTube

    • mickysavage 3.1

      My grandfather was one of those affected!

      I suspect this protest would fold pretty quickly as soon as car towing started.

      • Cricklewood 3.1.1

        Nah it's not going anywhere the minute the Towies arrive more vehicles are coming to block them in. Its going to be fun to watch the chaos that causes.

        • Patricia Bremner 3.1.1.1

          So serious question. Are the protestors wanting to negotiate?

          • SpaceMonkey 3.1.1.1.1

            I believe so. I also believe if there was a date agreed that mandates will end, I the majority would leave.

            • mickysavage 3.1.1.1.1.1

              The Government can’t agree to an end date right now. There is a crisis to handle first and the right decision not a quick decision is best.

            • observer 3.1.1.1.1.2

              Even if that did happen, there would still be a protest, wouldn't there?

              This is really basic: elections are majority/minority. Protests are not.

              Here's what the protesters are saying …

          • Cricklewood 3.1.1.1.2

            Not really, in that it's pretty hard to negotiate on something like mandates. It a very binary issue, remove them most will leave, leave them in place they'll stay

        • mikesh 3.1.1.2

          Perhaps they should send the army in, to confiscate the protesters' tents.

        • Psycho Milt 3.1.1.3

          …the minute the Towies arrive more vehicles are coming to block them in.

          This is why you have a police escort. Anyone trying that gets dragged from their vehicle, cuffed, tasered if they resist (too time-sensitive to waste time giving narcissists their moment of drama) and the vehicle driven away to be impounded later.

    • Tiger Mountain 3.2

      No need Ad to smear the memory of the brave ’51 lockout veterans with some obscure point.

      I was lucky enough to know a number of them including Jock Barnes, Jim Knox, Johnny Mitchell, Bill Andersen and Ron Black. They would have agreed with many of us on the Wellington traffic jam–even one nazi is one too many to be associated with.

      • Patricia Bremner 3.2.1

        My Dad was in the 1951 strike. He was an affiliated member as a coalminer.

        He would consider this crowd uninformed and a leaderless mob.

    • Blazer 3.3

      Is a lock out a strike?

      The 50's were the days of McCarthyism,'reds under the beds'…it still gets reignited ..today.

    • DS 3.4

      The NZ Communist Party in 1951 weren't threatening to murder politicians, nor were they holding the capital to ransom by blockading it with vehicles. Nor did Bastion Point revolve around people asserting their right to endanger the entire population via their own stupidity.

      Your efforts at bending over backwards to defend these nutters is very, very, noticeable, mate.

      • Tiger Mountain 3.4.1

        Well put DS, Ad’s opportunism knows few bounds.

      • Patricia Bremner 3.4.2

        Yes, and the miners and wharfies had their money in their union funds frozen.

        Hard to do that here as funds are from a variety of invisible "friends"?

  4. DukeEll 4

    How has this government managed to unify so many voices in opposition to it and it’s policies. This is unprecedented

    • mickysavage 4.1

      70% do not support the protest. This is a very comfortable figure in a democracy.

      • Blazer 4.1.1

        Why is that pertinent?

        • observer 4.1.1.1

          Well, let's look at the list of core policies that were abandoned by governments in NZ or similar democracies, with two thirds support.

          (and I got nothing. Suggestions welcome).

          U-turns happen all the time, when a policy is very unpopular. The vaccine mandate is not.

          Follow the votes.

          • Blazer 4.1.1.1.1

            Any privatisation of NZ power assets was opposed by a majority….did not stop the Key Govt from proceeding …regardless.

            • observer 4.1.1.1.1.1

              National campaigned on the issue in 2011, and won. (Like many on here I opposed both the party and the policy, but unfortunately Key got the votes).

              Not comparable at all.

              • Blazer

                Keeping it..real..

                On 30 September 2013, Prime Minister John Key announced that the referendum would be via postal ballot and would take place between 22 November and 13 December. The cost of the referendum would be $NZD9 million.[5]

                John Key said that the Government intended to ignore the results of the referendum, as the 2011 general election gave them a mandate for the sell-off.[6]

                The referendum result showed a two to one majority against the proposed asset sales.

                • KJT

                  One of the many of National's examples, of the same contempt for Democracy that the protesters are showing.

                  We could say that they are just “following the example” set by their role models.

      • DukeEll 4.1.2

        not my point, it's the disparate elements all banding together in the face of this government and how well they've maintained with a chaos theory approach. but you be smug with your poll numbers.

    • observer 4.2

      68-24 in support may be unprecedented, but not in the way you seem to think.

      The "precedent" for having many voices in opposition would be … any democratic government, ever.

    • Patricia Bremner 4.3

      I told you before DukeEll.. use of the internet and money from invisible hands pushing this.

      • DukeEll 4.3.1

        oh YOU told me did you? how silly of me to not just blindly accept that the internet caused this after these folks cd roms magically turned into ATM's

        Money from invisible hands is just as risible as the idea the vaccine is the virus. You can 't fight conspiracies with conspiracies.

        Calling a conspiracist adjacent protest a bunch of secret alt-right nazi capitalist drones who are operating at the behest of the wealthy faceless men is just as fucking crazy as claiming the vaccine is the virus. a perspective that that seems to have been lost by many of the governments cheerleaders on this.

        Why not get it off your chest and accuse the protestors of being lizard people puppets flying a false flag to keep prince andrew of the front page of the news and perpetuate the clinton foundation paedo rings infiltration of parliament?

        • Patricia Bremner 4.3.1.1

          So where is the notion that there is a chip in the vaccine coming from?

          The internet .

          Who is supplying the food, medicines, etc for 12 days now.?

          Judging by your over reaction I hit a nerve.

          • DukeEll 4.3.1.1.1

            I don’t care? I’m triple jabbed. I’m just finding the left reaction to these protests hilarious in their hypocrisy

        • Just Saying 4.3.1.2

          The C.D.C. isn’t publishing large portions of the Covid data it collects. – The New York Times (nytimes.com)

          The narrative collapse is hitting the mainstream. The above is an expose on the CDC suppressing and or cherry-picking its own data in order to fit with its chosen narrative to control behaviour.

          This isn't science and there were lives at stake.

          This change is going to be painful, and so far the only winner is National. The left literally has to move, adapt.

          Can we stop we the slurs and accusations and talk? This is so exhausting. The influx of truth isn't going to stop. No amount of name -calling is going to change this.

          After Luxton's speech today, I think Adern is toast. But regardless, Labour is going to have to catch up. Maybe even get ahead of the change. What is it going to take?

          • McFlock 4.3.1.2.1

            The narrative collapse is hitting the mainstream. The above is an expose on the CDC suppressing and or cherry-picking its own data in order to fit with its chosen narrative to control behaviour.

            Well, no, that's not what the article says at all.

            It's not publishing large amounts of data, sure.

            Kristen Nordlund, a spokeswoman for the C.D.C., said the agency has been slow to release the different streams of data “because basically, at the end of the day, it’s not yet ready for prime time.” She said the agency’s “priority when gathering any data is to ensure that it’s accurate and actionable.”

            Another reason is fear that the information might be misinterpreted, Ms. Nordlund said.

            Dr. Daniel Jernigan, the agency’s deputy director for public health science and surveillance said the pandemic exposed the fact that data systems at the C.D.C., and at the state levels, are outmoded and not up to handling large volumes of data. C.D.C. scientists are trying to modernize the systems, he said.

            There are two issues in the article: collecting consistent and robust data, and presenting that data in a timely and coherent manner.

            Both are pretty complex, especially in the states. We're not talking about knocking up a quick dashboard in powerbi from a single excel worksheet and being done with it.

            • Just Saying 4.3.1.2.1.1

              Okay, Mcflock.

              I didn't say the CDC had agreed. That would be a confession, not an expose.

              Don't the words "not ready for primetime'' raise some alarms?

              But anyway, good for you finding the rebuttal. Are you going to study what data was ''not ready for primetime'', and when? What was ready, and when? How that readiness fitted Faucci's narrative?

              I guess not.

              • McFlock

                Dude, I've seen some shit data from the US. Their healthcare system, like everything else, is fragmented and private enterprise. You look at a study from 46 states, and find it's one healthcare provider that has 50 hospitals on the eastern seaboard and a dozen in the west. Or it's data from a hospital company that specialises in rich people. Or there are big holes in testing data because nobody in those municipalities can afford to run it.

                Jump to conspiracy theories all you want, but it could just be a small team that's been given 5% of the resources needed to do the analyses, so they prioritise their workload to the biggest hotspots in the fire.

                Sure, it's shit in a way: the mere existence of the research increases the robustness of the calculations of how necessary further research is, so more resources get directed there because the evidence base of needing more research isn't there for other demographics.

                It's funny, really – you see "conspiracy", because that's your rabbit hole.

                I read the same thing and see "argh fuck we're trying but we need another 50 people, do you guys get what a fucking miracle even the current amount of output is?? This fucking team in Norway has it's own SUPERCOMPUTER. My WIN7 desktop only just got replaced over the xmas break!" because that's close to my fucking life.

                • Just Saying

                  Sigh.

                  I don't see conspiracy. That word came out of your head, Mcflock.

                  I see lying, manipulating. Not flying fuking saucers from the planet Klingon.

                  But fine, we disagree, Can we do that without the slurs?

                  • McFlock

                    Unless one person is doing the "lying, manipulating" by themselves, it's a conspiracy. But whatever word you want, I think we're reading the same article through different lenses. You see lies, I see bureaucracy and resource management.

                    I've been trying to coordinate some IT wonks to put together a web dashboard. It's taken so damned long the technology we'd selected has been deprecated, so now we have to start the UI development all over again.

        • Shanreagh 4.3.1.3

          Well this did not age well did it? One of the smaller funders (Verry/Red Stag) is a bitter NZer who does not believe that border controls/MIQ should have been part of the process to deal with the spread of Covid.

          Parliament protest funding website linked to Canadian ‘Freedom Convoy

          https://thespinoff.co.nz/live-updates/22-02-2022/protest-regroups-after-morning-of-police-action

          https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/more-data-canada-truck-convoy-donors-leaked-website-2022-02-15/

          But there will be other larger funders and hopefully an investigative journo will be on the job soon.

          With the hacking of GiveSendGo that was holding the money donated to the Canadian Truckies I would like to know also, since the initial figures showed $103,000 had been donated from NZ addresses, just who these people were. I suspect they may also be funding or donating to the NZ protestors.

  5. satty 5

    When it comes to cars and New Zealanders affection / dependencies/ addiction to cars, normal rules do not apply.

    Wellington council has now multiple times announced they would start fining cars parked on footpaths, with very little happening, unless someone continuously calls them about an individual offending car. So the Police is simply following their footsteps.

    Widespread, excessive speeding in Wellington is the norm.

    Not giving way to pedestrian on crossings and on footpaths goes completely unpunished.

    Killing cyclists and pedestrians has such ridiculous little consequences in this country. And even the very low penalties are worthy trying to appeal by the killers… one simple sentence to a judge is enough: "I need my car" and off you go with your killer machine again.

    The starting speeding fine of $30 is the same as in the late 90s, when a beer in a pub was $2 and house prices around $150,000. I saw the other day a breach of the alcohol ban zone in Wellington has a minimum fine of $250 (funny, that if you're drunk from the drinks on a licensed premise just one meter away, it's okay… those people don't start fights or sexually harass people [/sarc]).

    I guess someone figured out that a $30 fine is not going to change any habits nowadays… no-one has the guts to apply similar fines to driving related offences nor properly enforce them. In most western countries your driver license gets suspended at 20 or more km/h over the speed limit, in NZ you have to drive over 40 km/h over the speed limit (for a much shorter suspension), which in Switzerland is a criminal offence leading to a prison sentence.

    To summarise: For car drivers the roads and off-roads in New Zealand is like the "lawless good old Wild West".

  6. Reality 6

    Agree that the Police have, for whatever reason, been missing in action. To allow more vehicles into Parliament grounds in the last day or two is allowing the protesters to again get the upper hand. The Wellington Police head whose name escapes me has seemingly been sidelined and quite who actually is doing anything is not apparent.

    Must admit was hoping the huge piles of rubbish piled up at the bottom of Molesworth Street/Lambton Quay would be picked up by the Police and taken back to the protesters with a "this belongs to you". But for hygiene reasons the council ever so obligingly kindly came along and removed their rubbish. There is a little cafe right where that rubbish was, and the operator must be in complete despair about being unwittingly caught up in this chaos.

    The total disregard the protesters have for other people in the community is sickening.

  7. Cliopedant 7

    A failure of nerve on behalf of the police. By not seizing earlier opportunities to shift these people on, using reasonable force if necessary, the police have emboldened those who have no respect for authority or other citizens’ rights. Now, shifting these people will be much harder, and carried out in the full glare of media publicity will mean it will not be “a good look.” Clearly the police have not learned lessons from history – if people won’t be persuaded, they may have to be compelled.

    • Robert Guyton 7.1

      " the police have emboldened those who have no respect for authority or other citizens’ rights"

      Hilarious!

      Those same police who were accused of monstering the "naked woman" and arresting women in wheelchairs?

      Emboldening the disrespectful?

      Elegant thinking, Cliopedant.

  8. There has been some talk of the army coming in to help clear the cars.

    I think the problem with that course of action is that it probably wouldn't play well in the media; having the army confronting protesters.

    It would look like something expected in Myanmar.

    • weka 8.1

      What I read some days ago is that the police would deal with protestors and the army would deal with the vehicles.

      • tsmithfield 8.1.1

        I understand that is what is proposed in theory.

        In practice though, do you think protesters there, and those still arriving, will stand idly by while the army tows their cars?

        I think a confrontation with the army would be unavoidable. And perhaps this is why the army doesn't seem to have shown much enthusiasm up until this point.

        • weka 8.1.1.1

          maybe. But see those two car in the post? Why cannot the army remove those and the police arrest anyone that tries to stop them?

          • tsmithfield 8.1.1.1.1

            Perhaps. But aren't there over 400 cars/vehicles?

            So, grabbing two of them is probably just pissing in the sea, and likely to cause more harm than good by incentivising more protesters to turn up.

            • weka 8.1.1.1.1.1

              Taking out the low hanging fruit contains the protest and stop it spreading further out into the city. It also lessens impact on workers and others needeing to access those buildings.

              • If they want to take two vehicles, they probably don't need the army for that do they? It just seems to me that the sight of the army getting involved would be terrible optics and just provoke the situation even more.

                • weka

                  If there are no towies locally willing to do it, who should they use?

                  • Would the army even be interested in getting involved for a couple of vehicles? Sounds like a lot of effort for not much gain. Especially given that the army getting involved with any protest is terrible optics, even if it is minor. Imagine that sort of video being posted on facebook.

              • Robert Guyton

                " grabbing two of them is probably just pissing in the sea,"

                They've already done that, and more.

                No sweat.

            • McFlock 8.1.1.1.1.2

              Take two, come back, take two more. Repeat until the arseholes get the point.

          • Poission 8.1.1.1.2

            The police are reluctant to tow as a lot of the vehicles are their permanent homes,this is all they have and it is where their last possessions are.

            The great fail of the Potemkin Parliament and its prancing peacocks.

            • bad politics baby 8.1.1.1.2.1

              Also, you cannot tow a car that is occupied with someone in it, and now we have a weekend coming up where even more people will show up. The police have failed.

          • Robert Guyton 8.1.1.1.3

            Yes, weka. That's how it would run.

        • Psycho Milt 8.1.1.2

          In practice though, do you think protesters there, and those still arriving, will stand idly by while the army tows their cars?

          In practice though, the police are equipped to deal with rioters. Only question is whether they actually would or not. They seem to lack the will to enforce the law, which renders their organisation purposeless.

      • Jenny how to get there 8.1.2

        weka

        18 February 2022 at 9:57 am

        What I read some days ago is that the police would deal with protestors and the army would deal with the vehicles.

        Bringing in the army in my opinion would be a bad mistake, feeding into the protesters' narrative that the Ardern administration is a repressive regime.

        Illegal parking is a Council issue. The vehicles should be removed by the Council.

        Absolutely Positively

        Wellington City Council

        Me Heke Ki Pōneke

        We may tow your vehicle if:

        • it is blocking a driveway or access way
        • it is parked illegally and is causing a problem – for example, it is blocking a driveway or accessway
        • it has to be moved to allow construction work or work on the road – for example, painting

        Police may also be able to tell you where your vehicle is as we advise them of any vehicles we have towed. You can phone the Wellington Central Police Station on 0800 780 102 or phone your local Police station.

        .

        We have been told that the Wellington City Council approved towing contractors are refusing to move against the protesters.

        Whatever the reason for this refusal, the City Council's approved tow truck companies that refuse to perform their agreed duties must be removed permanently from the Council's register of approved contractors and this job put out to all towing companies prepared to do the job, with an agreed bonus and full police protection and escort.

        Failing that, the Council needs to call on their Ports Of Wellington unionised workforce to do this job, they have the large forklifts and low loaders able to move even the biggest vehicles. The Maritime Union should be asked for volunteers, to drive their vehicles to the protest and start removing all the illegally parked vehicles under the police and Council's direction, and deliver them to the Ports of Auckland compound or other secure site.

        Absolutely Positively

        Wellington City Council

        Me Heke Ki Pōneke

        Supplier Register

        We keep registers of consultants and contractors for repairs, maintenance, replacement construction and infrastructure work.

        https://wellington.govt.nz/-/media/your-council/selling-products-and-services/files/supplier-register.pdf

        • Jenny how to get there 8.1.2.1

          Why haven't the Police Acted?

          Why haven't the City Council Acted?

          "There is no such thing as bad soldiers only bad generals" Napoleon.

          Rubbish bags were piled to the height of cars, portaloos lined central streets, and illegally-parked vehicles blocked roads and bus routes.

          But what is our municipal authority doing about it? They might not have responsibility for policing, but they do have powers over parking and noise and sanitation…..

          “It’s not about us,” said [Mayor] Foster, who has been down to the Parliamentary precinct multiple times in the past two weeks…..

          The council has not been holding emergency meetings. “What would a council meeting do?” asked Foster.

          Along with [Chief Executive] McKerrow, he met frequently with police and government to discuss potential solutions.

          Protest: What is the Wellington City Council doing?

          Erin Gourley 05:00, Feb 19 2022

          I've got a solution. Move dem damn cars!

          These protesters are scabs trying to sabotage our public health response.

          If the Council's contractors refuse to do it. Get outside contractors to do it. And if they won't do it, call on the Wharfies Union and the Ports Of Wellington to do it.

          The Maritime Union that represents the Port workers are experienced and capable, and load and unload cars and large vehicles on a regular basis. The wharfies would be more than happy to move these scabs vehicles. The Ports Of Wellington have all the machinery.

          Let's roll

  9. "On the other side will be people that think that with enough yoga nothing bad will happen."

    smileyBrilliant Mickey-all the yoga teachers are working underground in Wanaka/Hawea because they are unvaxxed.

    IMHO the government has got this right. They have allowed the Beehive protest to go on so long that the protestors have been hoist by their own petard-the country is over it. Anybody paying attention can see that the protestors are a rabble with no coherent aims, except perhaps for the far right and Nazi’s whose aims are unconscionable.

    Now is the time for the police to move in, take down all of the structures and tow the vehicles come what may, no quarter given.

    If this had happened earlier it would have been seen as denying the right to protest.

  10. solkta 10

    Coster has made a complete dork of himself. After days of trying to negotiate with the protesters and providing them with free parking he said late Tuesday afternoon that towing would start on Wednesday. Late Wednesday afternoon his deputy said that they had been negotiating with protesters so it would not be appropriate to start towing. On Thursday afternoon they said that they had an increased towing capacity. From what i am aware only 12 cars have been moved, but many more than that have arrived. They are not even stopping more cars from entering the area. An ultimatum is an ultimatum, bullshit is bullshit.

    • Nic the NZer 10.1

      Its actually a bit funny that so many people are think that Costers personality is so important here.

      Given how we know these things have turned out overseas and how we know a significant bunch of protesters want this to end, then the peaceful resolution of this should still be the desired outcome.

      Coster is probably playing a role in the operation rather than doing it the police way without cooperation.

    • weka 10.2

      They are not even stopping more cars from entering the area.

      how would they do this? It's not illegal to drive to a protest, even if one is a protestor.

  11. Sanctuary 11

    The feeble police response has seen them routinely humiliated on a daily basis by people who want to literally overthrow the government and whose confidence and contempt of civil authority is now sky high. I've read several anecdotal tales of the police being very aggressive with people attempting any form of counter-protest. In other words, the cops are scared of the volatility of the protestors and have lost control of the mob's camp, and they are scared of the violence that would erupt if anyone else dares challenges this mob.

    The police cannot now move this crowd without the use of considerable force. That, simply, is why they haven’t acted. They fear it will spark a brushfire of terrorist actions if they try. They don't want to have to brutally suppress the ensuing riot – batons, riot shields, screaming children, blood and injury – live on the stuff news feed. The police top brass don't want to own that decision.

    This is now a political decision. The government wants this camp gone then it now needs to direct the police to clear the camp, and deal with the fallout.

  12. Reality 12

    The previous Police Commissioner (Mike Bush I think) had a very definite air of authority about him, which the current one does not have.

  13. Sanctuary 13

    Here is what I would do if I was the government and I was serious about putting an end to this challenge to the state.

    Issue a 24 hour ultimatum to disperse. Make it clear failure to do so would lead to the declaration of a state of emergency.

    If nothing happened in 24 hours, declare a state of emergency, bring in strong curbs on the media reporting events with a news blackout and including – if necessary – directing ISPs to block social media sites and then direct the police to immediately clear the camp using all force necessary under the riot act.

    Otherwise this slow moving attempt at a coup will continue.

    • weka 13.1

      What law would they use to declare a state of emergency?

      What you are suggesting would most likely result in these things:

      • violent resistance
      • police brutality
      • Māori bearing the brunt of this
      • international coverage of that
        • with an emphasis on Ardern's NZ
      • massive upswing in anger across the country from people that support the protest
      • increase in polarisation within NZ
      • increase in numbers at the occupations around the country
      • a sense of vindication for the neonazi/proto-fascist contingent, and increase in people agreeing with them
      • further but more serious radicalisation of Māori, and the people afraid of government overreach (it would basically confirm everything they already believe but up the ante)
      • distract the country from managing omicron well

      I would guess it would also increase the risk of serious violence, including death.

      • DS 13.1.1

        Pretty much every Maori group out there – up to and including Tama Iti – have condemned this protest. As for those taking part in the protest, who happen to be Maori? If you're far-right, you're far-right – ethnicity doesn't matter.

        Two-thirds of New Zealanders want to see these nutters dispersed. That two-thirds have been shat on by the police and ignored by the media, but they're there. And they're furious.

        • Enough is Enough 13.1.1.1

          Other than a couple of lunatics with swashtickas who made inane threats to hang MPs why do think they are right wingers?

          The right doesn't generally create divesre communal communities where they all live and contribute together for some kind of cause. That is the exactly what we are seeing at Parliament. People, singing, living and protesting.

          Righties are individualistic and don't group together in this way (or have dreadlocks and knitted clothes)

      • Sanctuary 13.1.2

        lol you don't need a law to declare a state of emergency. You simply declare one and outline the powers you now have and then as soon as is possible get parliament to together to vote it's support and if required pass the necessary (retrospective) legislation. The government, via parliament, is absolutely sovereign.

        As for your other points – sooner or later the government is going to have to show who is in charge. That'll either be the easy way – they'll all get covid and/or wvery cold – or if they continue this attempt at a low speed coup it'll be the hard way. Time will tell.

        • weka 13.1.2.1

          well that's one way to increase recruitment to a sovereignty, anti-govt movement, the government to take absolute power irrespective of the law.

    • Rosemary McDonald 13.2

      If nothing happened in 24 hours, declare a state of emergency, bring in strong curbs on the media reporting events with a news blackout and including – if necessary – directing ISPs to block social media sites

      Have you really thought this plan through?

  14. Anker 14
    1. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jMC_8q49rlM
    2. this is worth watching on Russell Brands take on th Canadian truckers and other such protests
  15. Adrian 15

    Problem may be solved by Poots, along with the other signs to look out for, Russian embassy in Kiev burning shit loads of paper ( which they are currently doing ) the Chinese embassy emptying out, and if parliamentarians start leaving Wellington in a hurry there may well be a small nuke on the way to Wellington and other world capitals. Problem solved.
    Sarcasm, by the way, note to assay the fears of the terminally bewildered.

  16. Graeme 16

    I'm waiting for a lot of people at the encampment to start coughing and sneezing. It should start happening about now. And for a small, but still quite visible subset of them to quickly become quite unwell.

    Wonder how many will still be there after a couple of days of that.

    • aj 16.1

      'm waiting for a lot of people at the encampment to start coughing and sneezing.

      Exactly Graeme. It would be a hard lesson. But what if no-one there gets it? imagine how this would reinforce their belief system. Hardly bears thinking about….

  17. newsense 17

    Can’t imagine the police would tolerate a protest that featured threats against the life of Nat leaders or ministers.

  18. Drowsy M. Kram 18

    "Why haven't the police acted?" Might be due in part to PM Ardern's consistent "Be kind" stance (wonderful). Just as the tolerance of diverse protest groups has been pushed beyond limits by our government, so ‘protesters’ are pushing the limits (of kindness) now.

    Just hope the situation can be defused before it blows up in all our faces.

  19. mpledger 19

    Russell Coutt's is being disengenuous with his centreboard yachting example. It's not that there is a problem with the boys sailing together i.e. being physically on the water together. It's that there is a lot of preparation with yachting, easily 30 minutes on the hard before and after a days racing. And often a break mid-day for lunch if it's a regatta. At all those times people are milling about together in a pretty confined space.

    My father caught the flu when he was the saftey officer for a youth yachting regatta – kids had been sent to the regatta who were unwell and they passed it around. He gave it to my mother and my mother died from it.

  20. Barfly 20

    It has been a very long time in New Zealand since any occupation has been dealt with quickly and forcefully (I know of no examples but it must have happened). What is happening here is following the usual path of events (for police) IMO.

    • Patricia Bremner 20.1

      yessmiley Yes Barfly, That is true. The last one I remember where a death occurred was Bastion Point. Joanne Hawke aged 5 years in 1977. Rob Muldoon was PM.

  21. Lukas 21

    The Nazi supported anti vaxer protest

    Where is this protest?

    Goodwins law in the first sentence is impressive.

    I guess if you are going to lie you may as well lie big right?

    • Andy 21.1

      Jumping the shark is probably more apt

      "Nazi yoga instructors for Aoteorea"

      Yeah right

      • mauī 21.1.1

        The massage and aromatherapy tents, the mothers and multiple children's tents, first aid tent and hari krishna tent are all a successful cover for what can only be assumed is.. pure evil.

    • observer 22.1

      It's the headline (and story) in that link that is more relevant than a herb garden.

      Local support: next to nothing. I guess that's what happens when protesters go out of their way to antagonise and abuse local people who are … not the government and not responsible for anything to do with vaccine mandates.

      But hey, fuck ’em, they don’t matter.

  22. mikesh 23

    Perhaps they could put a sign up outside the entrance to Parliament's grounds saying:

    "Welcome to the Parliament Zoo. Please don't feed the animals."

    The word "animals" could even be shown crossed out, and replaced with the word "cretins".

    Ridicule may well be the best antidote.

  23. Cricklewood 24

    Wonder if the part of the reluctance to send police in is due to Covid itself, if they put say 300 police on the ground and forcefully clear the protestors and then find out some protestors have active infections, they're faced with having to quarantine a huge number of officers.

    • Barfly 24.1

      Let history be your guide mate what you suggest (desire?) hasn't been the New Zealand way of doing things for quite awhile

  24. Ffloyd 25

    Cricklewood. My thoughts too.Not only safety of Police Officers, but what happens if the protestors became positive to Covid en masse. At least they are in their own bubbble instead of scattering out into the wider Community. Could they be contained to get them tested in which case their details might be able to be collected. It really worries me to see such young toddlers and babies in this environment. It’s just not right.

    • Nic the NZer 25.1

      Some of them are using public transport daily. For the most part other commuters seem to be tolerating that, but they are not totally separate.

    • Cricklewood 25.2

      I've no issue with the kids there, they appear loved, well looked after, happy and safe…

      Plenty of kids in far worse circumstances in our country.

      • Andrew Miller 25.2.1

        I guess they’re not any more as the police are unable to do anything, but in the first few days they were basically being used as human shields.
        As a parent I find that grotesque.

  25. The Chairman 27

    Parliament has opened up a tenuous line of communication. If the protestors stop breaking the law they may talk to them. This is a significant concession.

    So Parliament won't even guarantee to engage with them even if the protesters succumb to their demands. And yet, you call that a significant concession?

    I don't think anyone will be surprised if the protesters tell them to get stuffed.

    • Robert Guyton 27.1

      We won't be surprised "if the protesters tell them to get stuffed" – that was always going to happen.

      By making this reasonable offer, the Government is demonstrating the flakiness of the protest to the general public.

      • The Chairman 27.1.1

        The Government is demonstrating the flakiness of the protest to the general public.

        That seems to be what they planned to achieve in this info war.

        However, when one sees there is no guarantee to engage with them even if the protesters succumb to their demands, one soon sees this offer is far from reasonable. Highlighting the flakiness of the piss poor offer.

        If they (the government) guarantee engagement, then you might have a point.

        • Robert Guyton 27.1.1.1

          Why should the Government "guarantee" anything to people who are breaking the law?

          Surely, the law-breakers should stop that, then start negotiating.
          The protesters aren’t being required to “succumb” to Government’s demands, they are required to obey the law – too much to ask, do you think?

          • The Chairman 27.1.1.1.1

            Why should the Government "guarantee" anything to people who are breaking the law?

            If they succumb to the Government's demands, they would no longer be breaking the law.

            Surely, the law-breakers should stop that, then start negotiating.

            Again, there is no guarantee the Government will engage if they stop, hence the problem with the Government's piss poor offer.

            • Robert Guyton 27.1.1.1.1.1

              The protesters want a guarantee from the Government?

              Why should the Government guarantee the law-breakers anything that's not already guaranteed by law???

  26. The Chairman 28

    Why haven’t the police acted?

    A very balanced and reasonable response to that question has just been put out by the police.

    • Andrew Miller 28.2

      Oh please, if you can’t tell the difference between reasonable response and arse covering for having screwed up…

      • The Chairman 28.2.1

        What makes do you think they screwed up?

        • Andrew Miller 28.2.1.1

          There’s a bunch of people who range was the probably well meaning but deluded to a combination of conspiracy theorists and the far right holding the country to ransom who are going nowhere, scores of Wellingtonians have been threatened, abused, intimidated and they’re effectively doing nothing to prevent it.
          That’s a fail.
          Now I know you’ve spent the day lying to all and sundry so I’m able to predict your response before you type it so maybe save yourself the effort.

          • The Chairman 28.2.1.1.1

            Scores of Wellingtonians have been threatened, abused, intimidated and they’re effectively doing nothing to prevent it.

            Well that is a lie. They've up patrols and are willing to look into all complaints.

            Don't you find it is interesting there isn't "scores" of complaints to them? Could it be it's all over hyped because Labour is upset and it seems so too are a number their followers/supporters.

            • The Unliving 28.2.1.1.1.1

              Well that is a lie.

              How could you possibly know this?

              Don't you find it is interesting there isn't "scores" of complaints to them?

              Not especially, and I don't see how you could know this either. The most likely explanation is that the people on the receiving end of the abuse and intimidation made a determination that the police are unlikely to do anything. How many complaints would you ordinarily expect police to receive about this sort of thing? And how often do you think they do anything about them?

              Could it be it's all over hyped because Labour is upset and it seems so too are a number their followers/supporters.

              Over-hyped? Hardly. I find it ironic that a large group of people with deranged, violent, anti-science, and often fascist beliefs are deemed the voice of reason, while people complaining of being harassed as they go about their business are accused of lying.

              • The Chairman

                How could you possibly know this?

                It was in their press statement today.

                Over-hyped? Hardly

                How could you possibly know this?

                • The Unliving

                  It was in their press statement today.

                  Which press statement? And how would it refute my comment?

                  How could you possibly know this?

                  Nice trolling! The burden of proof is on you to substantiate your claim that the complaints are "over-hyped".

                  • The Chairman

                    I said could it be it's all over hyped. It wasn't a statement of fact. Whereas you said Over-hyped? Hardly. as if you were speaking fact. Thus, the burden of proof is on you.

                    The big press statement made today by the police re the protest.

                    • The Unliving

                      I said could it be it's all over hyped. It wasn't a statement of fact.

                      Were you genuinely thinking that when you wrote it? At least we can agree it wasn't factual.

                      Whereas you said Over-hyped? Hardly. as if you were speaking fact. THUS, the burden of proof is on you.

                      It doesn't work like that. You made a statement, which you admit was not intended to be factual, to which I offered a counter point that I considered was more likely. It is up to you to either refute my claim or accept it. Yes, my argument could be wrong, but it is up to you to demonstrate that.

                      The big press statement made today by the police re the protest.

                      Does the press statement refute my point in some way? If so, how?

  27. Byd0nz 29

    The Inaction of the Police or Army tells me that they view the protesters as spoilt brat children, that would be about an apt description of the protesters, so no smacking the spoilt brats.

    Now if a Marxist inspired protest agains a failing Capitalist System we’re to take place, there would be bashed heads and multiple arrests by aggressive State Agents of Police and Army.

    This kid glove approach must surely give all sorts comfort to get out and have a go at the State, though I doubt we will see signs saying ‘Smash Capitalism’ any time soon.

  28. Jenny how to get there 30

    Why haven't the police acted?

    Because they are not tow truck drivers.

    felix1.4

    18 February 2022 at 4:28 am

    Your fascist strikebreaking suggestions won't work Jenny because the towies understand a little thing called solidarity.

    Reply

    • Jenny how to get there1.4.1

      18 February 2022 at 8:03 am

      "There is no such thing as bad soldiers, only bad generals" Napoleon

      Thank you felix, you have confirmed what I suspected. That the towies refusal to tow these scabs vehicles, has nothing to do with the towies being frightened of them, but of being in agreement with them.

      The Wellington City Council need to step up and give some leadership to their contractors. Step Up, or Step Down!

      The council need to take a hard line on their under performing tow truck contractors, and inform them that refusing to carry out their agreed duties, will see them permanently removed from the Council's preferred contractor list. If the tow truck contractors continue to refuse to take these jobs, the Council will put these contracts out to open tender, on the understanding that the first of the smaller tow companies that breaks ranks will be permanently placed at the top of the list for first call.

  29. Rosemary McDonald 31

    Name the Nazis mickysavage…and prove that the majority of the protestors welcome what you term their 'support' or withdraw this post.

    Has it occurred to you that perhaps the way the protestors failed to retaliate with extreme violence after the police brutality of last Thursday might have earned just a modicum of respect from the wider police force? (That, and the impromptu 'stands' that Thursday evening outside police stations around NZ)

    Perhaps there is little appetite left in the constabulary for dragging naked women by the hair and kneeling on their heads, of placing one's entire weight upon the heads of a restrained 17 year olds, or kneeling on the chests of restrained middle aged women until their sternums break.

    I was told by a police detective some years ago that generally the police hate it when there are incidents like this of police brutality/idiocy because on the whole, the police need the support of the majority of the population in order to do their job.

    You clearly have no idea of the extent of loathing for the vaccine mandates. Even amoung double vaxxed. Mandating the shots for children and young adults has been the last straw for many.

    What kind of society are we when we risk the health of our youth with what is an experimental product to protect the old and frail?

    • weka 31.1

      … and prove that the majority of the protestors welcome what you term their 'support'…

      Micky didn't say the majority of the protestors welcome the support of nazis.

      Has it occurred to you that perhaps the way the protestors failed to retaliate with extreme violence after the police brutality of last Thursday might have earned just a modicum of respect from the wider police force? (That, and the impromptu 'stands' that Thursday evening outside police stations around NZ)

      Nope. It's very clear that the police want to remove vehicles, and are choosing not to because they are concerned about the violence that will happen from the protestors.

      Perhaps there is little appetite left in the constabulary for dragging naked women by the hair and kneeling on their heads,

      I only say one woman. She was in an active line of protest that was in the process of confrontation of police who were arresting them. She took her clothes off, having oiled her body with coconut oil, resisted arrest, and so they pulled her out with the only thing they could get hold of.

      You clearly have no idea of the extent of loathing for the vaccine mandates. Even amoung double vaxxed. Mandating the shots for children and young adults has been the last straw for many.

      I do. But the problem the protest has is that it is still associated with white supremacists, death threats, abuse of locals.

      What kind of society are we when we risk the health of our youth with what is an experimental product to protect the old and frail?

      Covid vaccination of children is voluntary. What kind of movement argues that old and disabled people should be sacrificed?

      • The Chairman 31.1.1

        What kind of movement argues that old and disabled people should be sacrificed?

        They don't have to be sacrificed. Testing could be better utilised as a way of protecting them. Along with vaccines for those that opt to take them.

        Additionally, so can this

        Large, peer-reviewed research study proves ivermectin works.

        Regular use of ivermectin as a prophylactic was associated with significantly reduced COVID-19 infection, hospitalization and mortality rates.

        https://flccc.substack.com/p/large-peer-reviewed-research-study?utm_source=url

        • weka 31.1.1.1

          They don't have to be sacrificed. Testing could be better utilised as a way of protecting them.

          How exactly?

          Along with vaccines for those that opt to take them.

          This is insufficient and would raise the death and disability rate in NZ.

          Regular use of ivermectin as a prophylactic was associated with significantly reduced COVID-19 infection, hospitalization and mortality rates.

          Just so I am clear, you suggest that a large part of the NZ population to take a medication prophylactically that has known side effects, limited research for this use, and only reduces risk by 44%?

          • The Chairman 31.1.1.1.1

            The regular use of preventative ivermectin led to a 68% reduction in COVID-19 mortality.

            If coupled with wider use of testing and vaccines would be just as good as what is currently being offered, IMO.

            When you say this is insufficient and would raise the death and disability rate in NZ. Are you talking about all the above combined ? And if so, can you back that up or is it merely an assertion?

            How exactly?

            With wider use of PCR saliva testing, which is reported as being more accurate, faster, cheaper, and less resource intensive.

            The known side effects of ivermectin are minimal, It's already been approved for use (not for covid though) and has been used safely for years.

            Additionally, a lot of doctors around the world use it and swear it has been shown to work well.

            Which is far better than the risk of mandating an experimental vaccine with no long-term data, IMO. Don't you think?

            • weka 31.1.1.1.1.1

              You still haven't explained how PCR testing would protect people.

              The known side effects of ivermectin are minimal, It's already been approved for use (not for covid though) and has been used safely for years.

              Citation needed for safety data for long term, prophylactic use.

              In the meantime, here's the data sheet for use with parasites,

              https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/profs/datasheet/s/Stromectoltab.pdf

              • The Chairman

                Citation needed for safety data for long term, prophylactic use.

                Good point. While the known side effects of ivermectin are known for it's use in treating parasites, it's safety when used daily as a preventive has no long-term study as this use is all relatively new.

                You still haven't explained how PCR testing would protect people.

                More overall use of them. Such as in the workplace, pubs. etc…

                We already have a high vaccine up take so this would be additional to that. Something to keep in mind when you answer my question in the post above.

                • weka

                  Good point. While the known side effects of ivermectin are known for it's use in treating parasites, it's safety when used daily as a preventive has no long-term study as this use is all relatively new.

                  Do you still suggest that ivermectin is used prophylactically by a large number of NZers?

                  More overall use of them. Such as in the workplace, pubs. etc…

                  How does this protect people exactly?

                  • The Chairman

                    Do you still suggest that ivermectin is used prophylactically by a large number of NZers?

                    I didn't say that. Though, I think I know what you are asking. And the answer is, they should be free to weigh up the risks and make their own choice.

                    How does this protect people exactly?

                    They would know whether or not they were good to go, or require to isolate

                    • weka

                      You said, about elderly and disabled people,

                      They don't have to be sacrificed. Testing could be better utilised as a way of protecting them. Along with vaccines for those that opt to take them.

                      Additionally, so can this

                      Large, peer-reviewed research study proves ivermectin works.

                      Regular use of ivermectin as a prophylactic was associated with significantly reduced COVID-19 infection, hospitalization and mortality rates.

                      You are suggesting three things instead of population wide vaccination,

                      1. testing (you still haven't said how this would protect elderly and disabled people)
                      2. opt in vaccines
                      3. prophylactic ivermectin

                      If you didn't mean for ivermectin to be taken by the large number of elderly and disabled in NZ, what did you mean?

                    • weka

                      They would know whether or not they were good to go, or require to isolate

                      This is the last time I'm going to ask. How would saliva PCR testing protect elderly and disabled people from getting covid?

                    • The Chairman

                      If you didn't mean for ivermectin to be taken by the large number of elderly and disabled in NZ, what did you mean?

                      You made it sound like I said it is being used, when I was promoting it's use. Which is what I later figured is what you meant to say when answering your question.

                      Testing (you still haven't said how this would protect elderly and disabled people)

                      By reducing transmission as people would know if they were good to go or not. For example, when visiting them or being around them (the elderly and disabled) Opposed to just being vaccinated, yet infected with out knowing. Which a test will show

                      Opt in vaccines

                      Yes, going forward and in addition to our current high vaccinaion rate

                      Prophylactic ivermectin

                      Opt in ivermectin as a treatment or preventive.

            • weka 31.1.1.1.1.2

              When you say this is insufficient and would raise the death and disability rate in NZ. Are you talking about all the above combined ? And if so, can you back that up or is it merely an assertion?

              You suggested that individuals could be vaccinated rather than populations. This is by definition a lower of protection. If you don't understand how, then you probably shouldn't be commenting on this.

              If you think that ivermectin and individual vaccinations will produce the kind of protect that population vaccination does, I'd like to see the evidence.

              • The Chairman

                You suggested that individuals could be vaccinated rather than populations.

                Yes, I did. But you seem to be forgetting that I also said in addition to vaccines. Furthermore, the rate of vaccination is currently high.

                This is by definition a lower of protection.

                Yes, when looked at on it's own. However, I said when offset with ivermectin and more widespread testing.

      • Rosemary McDonald 31.1.2

        Micky didn't say the majority of the protestors welcome the support of nazis.

        No. But you both seem to think that because there are "Nazis", (and angry, ranty people with few manners) the whole protest is tainted.

        But the problem the protest has is that it is still associated with white supremacists, death threats, abuse of locals.

        Which is a pity since even the police have stated….

        "Enforcement action taken by Police runs the real risk of injury to the public, escalation in numbers of people, and a transition away from a largely peaceful protest to violence."

        https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/wellington/300520466/live-police-not-taking-enforcement-action-at-parliament-protest-say-deescalation-is-the-only-safe-option

        If we judged the entirety of the human race by the arseholes we have to share the planet with there would be sound justification for the Vogons to vapourize the lot of us. Which kind of exemplifies the silly and simplistic logic of 'Oh look!!! Nazis!!! All baaad!!!

        Nope. It's very clear that the police want to remove vehicles, and are choosing not to because they are concerned about the violence that will happen from the protestors.

        Sorry, I missed that press release from the police were they specifically state the violence would originate with the protestors.

        I only say one woman. She was in an active line of protest that was in the process of confrontation of police who were arresting them. She took her clothes off, having oiled her body with coconut oil, resisted arrest, and so they pulled her out with the only thing they could get hold of.

        And I floated the idea of more… if the righteous Left get their way and they send in the riot police.

        She was sitting down with her back to the police and was part of a line of protestors that police were actively trying to forcibly push back. The protestors were not trying to invade parliament. I was watching the Stuff livestream.

        The cops were on a mission to create stress and tension and goad the young hot heads in the crowd of protestors into a violent reaction. The cops focused their attention on women, older people of both sexes… and the totally harmless Alexander. The cops succeeded only in making themselves look like thugs.

        Being naked and 'oiled up' was a tactic of non- violent protest. She was of no threat to anyone at all. If some misguided cop felt she needed to be removed then, as I said the other evening…there are other methods they could have employed. Such as wrapping her in that handy blanket. Blankets are good for other things other than being held over someone's head with a cop's knee.

        Anyone who thinks she somehow deserved the violence metered out to her that day needs to take a long, hard look at their personal politics. IMHO.

        I have no idea why there is a twitter spoof from Bryce Edwards in your reply. The man has a very weird view…"triple vaxxed and triple masked"…is he joking?

        Covid vaccination of children is voluntary.

        Do you have children or grandchildren weka? You do understand that fuckwit organisations out here in New Weirdland have determined that unvaccinated children…some as young as five…are not allowed to fully participate in very many activities so beloved and hitherto encouraged.

        https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/sport/457785/rugby-players-will-need-vaccination-passes-for-club-games

        https://www.aucklandleague.co.nz/COVID19-Updates

        https://www.fndc.govt.nz/Whats-new/Latest-news/Vaccine-passes-required-at-Council-libraries-and-museum

        What kind of movement argues that old and disabled people should be sacrificed?

        Don't be obtuse. Who, where said the old and disabled should be sacrificed? Of course this is not what 'the movement' is saying…to my knowledge.

        (Yes, I am saying that the young people's needs should be put first, because that is, or should be, the way of things.)

        But some countries have decided that the risks from the mRNA products outweigh the benefits for children.

        https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/sweden-decides-against-recommending-covid-vaccines-kids-aged-5-12-2022-01-27/

        Encourage the old and disabled (and the vulnerable in general) to take any and all protections available and recommended by their doctor and if they need to isolate then the state should provide support for this.

        But don't subject young and healthy people to the same restrictions and requirements ad infinitum. Don't inject them with products of variable efficacy and unknown long term safety. As one kid at the protest's t-shirt said "I am not your experiment."

        They are the future of the human race ffs. This living in fear of a virus that the vast majority of the young and healthy flick off has to end.

        • Robert Guyton 31.1.2.1

          Rosemary – you characterise "Nazis" as "angry, ranty people with few manners"?

          Okay then…

          • Rosemary McDonald 31.1.2.1.1

            Rosemary – you characterise "Nazis" as "angry, ranty people with few manners"?

            No Robert. You (deliberately?) misquote me.

            I said "Nazis", (and angry ranty people with few manners)

            The "and" makes it mean something completely different from what you are accusing me of.

            You care to have another look and apologize?

        • Robert Guyton 31.1.2.2

          "

          "She was sitting down with her back to the police and was part of a line of protestors that police were actively trying to forcibly push back. The protestors were not trying to invade parliament. I was watching the Stuff livestream.

          The cops were on a mission to create stress and tension and goad the young hot heads in the crowd of protestors into a violent reaction"

          Utter nonsense, by her own admission, the "slippery nude girl" had been schooled in delivering insult to authority through the deployment of her nether regions, – she "twerked" the police, had greased herself slippery to make it difficult/impossible for police to arrest her, and was very happy with the kindness police showed in managing her "cheeky" behaviour. Have you not been following this, Rosemary??

          • Rosemary McDonald 31.1.2.2.1

            Oh Mr Guyton. What acts of physical violence was she committing that justified dragging her by her hair? Kneeling on her head?

            What physical threat did she pose?

            Clearly you are yet another righteous leftie who thinks it is ok for the police to use extreme physical force on unarmed non violent protestors.

            Heard of precedent? Whatever the young woman in question might say…accepting this level of violence from the police under those circumstances is dangerous.

            Oh, and a neighbour used similar language as yourself when talking about this incident. "Twerking", "Cheeky" even "deployment of her nether regions"…such quaint and archaic notions from gentlemen of a certain generation. Tut tutting at such disgraceful behaviour…

            And while we're talking about police brutality and as to whether the victims were asking for it…what do you think about what happened to Alexander?

      • Cricklewood 31.1.3

        Its voluntary, but from 12 years 3 months mandates hit hard, sports, arts even access to libraries… that horizon poll if you look I dont think it's by chance that support for the protest is much higher in age cohorts most likely to have school age children.

        Potentially politically very significant as well given that age cohort is more likely to vote left.

      • Obtrectator 31.1.4

        Can't see the point being made by posting that lengthy video clip. Two young women with a lot to say for themselves – so? No time to watch it in full and draw conclusions; more pressing matters to occupy me.

        • weka 31.1.4.1

          Near the start the woman Rosemary referred to describes how she engaged with the protest and police, including oiling her body (so police would find it hard to arrest her when she resisted).

          • weka 31.1.4.1.1

            Rosemary appears to think that they shouldn't have been arrested at all, but anyone going into that kind of protest at the front line should know they may be arrested. This is how protest of this kind works. It wasn't an injustice for police to try and remove them, it's what happens. Rosemary misrepresents what happened imo. I posted the video because it has the woman describing it herself.

            • Rosemary McDonald 31.1.4.1.1.1

              It wasn't an injustice for police to try and remove them, it's what happens.

              Another righteous leftie thinks police dragging someone by their hair when that person is offering no physical threat or violence to anyone is ok.

              Rightio.

              Rosemary misrepresents what happened imo.

              How am I misrepresenting? I am telling what I saw from two cameras and from two different angles.

              What do you think the footage of her arrest shows? You have seen the footage of her arrest? And you are not horrified?

              • weka

                nah, can't be bothered doing another round of this if you insist on making shit up about my argument.

                Put up the video footage so we can all see it, then we might have a conversation.

                • Rosemary McDonald

                  Hang on a minute…are you saying you haven't seen the footage showing this person's arrest?

                  And you are the one 'making shit up' by stating I am misrepresenting what happened without giving evidence of said misrepresentation.

                  Now is the time to be extra careful that we don't automatically divide into tribes… assuming those who have a different view are enemies.

                  • weka

                    No, I've seen one video of her being pulled out of the crowd and arrested. You implied you'd seen a second from a different angle.

                    We've had a number of conversations about that arrest, I don't really want to rehash it.

    • Jenny how to get there 31.2

      Rosemary McDonald

      18 February 2022 at 3:07 pm

      Name the Nazis mickysavage…and prove that the majority of the protestors welcome what you term their 'support' or withdraw this post……

      Nicky Hager gives the best reply I have seen so far

      Nicky Hagar gives his take on the fascists working inside the anti-vaxxer movement.

      In my opinion these fascists are openly trying to manipulate the protesters into a violent confrontation with the government, to create even more grievances and grow the anti-government, anti-democracy movement..

      So far, none of your friends in the 'Freedom Convoy' have denounced or repudiated the Trumpian fascists in their ranks.

      Nicky Hager: My message to friends who joined this week’s protest

      ……there is a whole package of Trumpian ideas about the government and news media being enemies of ordinary people. It was in pro-Trump protests in the US that resistance to and denial of Covid were first used as a rallying point for far-right ideas. That is where the political model being seen here began. Do you feel comfortable being part of this?

      … Trumpian politics have come with the US ideas about “freedom”, meaning freedom of the individual to do what they like and stuff everyone else. In New Zealand, the dominant values are much more about community and caring for each other. Freedom sounds good, but it’s a slogan for deeply conservative and unattractive ideas that deny or avoid the responsibility we have for others.

      ….. I strongly suspect the Covid resistance is being actively used by some on the right of New Zealand politics to try to destabilise Jacinda Ardern and the Labour Government. Already it has familiar fingerprints all over it. Notice how the recent farmer protests (on entirely different issues of environment policy) use the same extreme anti-Jacinda and anti-Labour script about communism and lies. There are strong signs of orchestration with the rural protests as well.

      https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/12-11-2021/nicky-hager-my-message-to-friends-who-joined-this-weeks-protest/.

      • Barfly 31.2.1

        yes agree absolutely !

      • aj 31.2.2

        Hagar's article is right on the button.

      • Rosemary McDonald 31.2.3

        My friends? Whanau? Only one of them has read that Hager piece and was a tad disappointed that the writer failed to look past the loud and glaring at that particular Wellington march (which my whanau/friend attended btw). Of course there were the rent- a -mob crowd, the rebels hunting a cause that are desperate for an opportunity to give their Trump gear an airing.

        But the vast majority were not waving Trump flags or wearing MAGA hats or demanding the lynching of complicit incompetent journalists.

        They were ordinary New Zealanders who have done their best as part of the team of 5 million but draw the line at being effectively forced to have a novel mRNA product that can and has made themselves or some of their family and friends very sick. They are protesting against the state and their pet media refusing to acknowledge these injuries from the now mandated products. Jobs lost. Homes lost. Censorship and deplatforming of any voice raised against anyone who speaks out for the adverse affected.

        And there's no way in hell the kids are going to be forced to have the same shot that has made so many ill. You of course will have spoken to these people?

        Made sick by the injection they had to get to keep their job as a disability support worker or truck driver? Nurse, doctor, paramedic? How about the now rejected volunteer firefighter who has served their community for over a decade? How about speaking with one of the thousands of parent opting to homeschool heir children because of nonsensical mask mandates and and without- parental- consent 'vaccinations' of over 12 year olds?

        Sadly, it appears Hager failed to find these people and speak with them. A pity, because being an advocate for democracy he would have been delighted to have found this group to be in the majority of the marchers that day.

        We used to think that this whole Covid shitshow will benefit a few years down the line by the kind of scrutiny an investigative journalist like Hager could bring.

        • Jenny how to get there 31.2.3.1

          I notice here Rosemary that you demand that MickySavage name the fascists in the anti-vaxxer movement,

          We don't have to name them.

          We have all seen the the triumphalist flags of the Confederacy a symbol of white supremacy and slavery. The Trump banners, celebrating the lie of the stolen election that incited violent insurrection. The hand written placards with death threats against the Prime Minister and Minister of Health. The black SUV with "WAR" painted on it.

          You demand that MickySavage give you names but I notice that you have repeated a lot of hearsay of extreme negative vaccine side effects and never mentioned one named person.

          But worse of all is you claim that 12 year old children are being vaccinated against their will and without their parent's consent.

          "…..How about speaking with one of the thousands of parent opting to homeschool heir children because of nonsensical mask mandates and and without- parental- consent ‘vaccinations’ of over 12 year olds?." Rosemary McDonald

          In my opinion voicing this unsubstantiated claim of forced vaccination on children as fact, shows that you are pretty far gone down the far right conspiracy rabbit hole yourself.

          This is the sort of ‘Big Lie’ technique that the fascists specialise in, as first expounded by Joseph Goebels

          • Rosemary McDonald 31.2.3.1.1

            ….but I notice that you have repeated a lot of hearsay of extreme negative vaccine side effects and never mentioned one named person.

            It is not my place to name others. I am stunned, quite frankly, you have not spoken to anyone who has experienced side effects from the Pfizer product that go beyond a sore arm and flu like symptoms. I have spoken with at least four people who experienced all of the symptoms of myo/pericarditis listed now on the MOH website.

            (https://www.health.govt.nz/news-media/media-releases/clinicians-reminded-be-aware-myocarditis-and-pericarditis-symptoms)

            However for a start, have a read of the accounts on this site…https://vestibular.org/forum/dizziness/covid-19-vaccine-side-effects/ This is a well established forum for a support group for vestibular conditions that predates Covid by years.

            Be prepared for a long read.

            …voicing this unsubstantiated claim of forced vaccination on children

            No. I said that children over 12 could be vaccinated without their parents consent…not that there were forced vaccinations. Get it right. You can apologize by reply.

            And in another time I would have said the Goeb(b)les slur you directed at me was beneath you….

            • Andrew Miller 31.2.3.1.1.1

              I thought this deliberate spreading of false information wasn’t being tolerated and said posts removed?

            • Rosemary McDonald 31.2.3.1.1.2

              @Jenny how to get there …yes I did say And there's no way in hell the kids are going to be forced to have the same shot that has made so many ill. …but this is not saying that kids have been forced. Just to clear that up.

              OTOH…there is an very strong element of "force" when unvaccinated 12 years and 3 month olds can no longer participate in ordinary life. Just to clear that up.

              • Jenny how to get there

                I didn't misquote you, Rosemary, you were spreading a fascist meme.

                There is no coming back from that.

                • Rosemary McDonald

                  I didn't misquote you, Rosemary, you were spreading a fascist meme.

                  What "fascist meme"? Be very precise with this…

                  • Jenny how to get there

                    You claim that 12 year old children are being vaccinated without their parent's consent.

                    "…..How about speaking with one of the thousands of parent opting to homeschool heir children because of nonsensical mask mandates and and without- parental- consent ‘vaccinations’ of over 12 year olds?." Rosemary McDonald

                    That thousands of parents are opting to homeschool their children because over 12 year olds are being vaccinated without parental consent is a joseph Goebbels scale big lie.
                    Rosemary unless you are completely insane you know that this is a lie..

                    The purpose of such fascist type big lie is to spread fear and distrust in the democratically elected authorities.

                    I am astounded that you are trying to walk back this fascist lie.

                    You are a dirty low down liar deliberately spreading fascist misinformation.

                    Is that precise enough for you?

                    Personally I think you have a nerve to comment here ever again.

                    • Rosemary McDonald

                      That thousands of parents are opting to homeschool their children because over 12 year olds are being vaccinated without parental consent is a joseph Goebbels scale big lie.
                      Rosemary unless you are completely insane you know that this is a lie..

                      https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018828760/homeschooling-on-rise-as-ministry-faces-application-backlog

                      Figures from the Ministry of Education show home-education applications in November jumped to nearly 900, well up from less than 200 the year before.

                      The ministry says so many applications are now being dealt with it is taking more than six weeks for each one to be assessed.

                      Covid-19 changes and mask mandates are adding to the demand – Shirley Erwee from the Auckland Home Educators committee discussed the numbers with Checkpoint.

                      Being a stickler for accuracy Jenny how to get there you will see that the 900 number of applications to homeschool are from November last year.

                      When the updated numbers are released that include February 2022 and do not show an increase of over a thousand I will be happy to say I exaggerated when I said "thousands".

                      I was basing my assertion on the above piece from the State broadcaster, and a first person account after speaking with such a parent who said that the homeschool community in their particular region numbered now 1500.

                      As for the rest of your rantings…I thought there was an expectation that there were standards on The Standard and moderators would step in when these were breached.

                      ….is a joseph Goebbels scale big lie.
                      Rosemary unless you are completely insane you know that this is a lie..

                      The purpose of such fascist type big lie is to spread fear and distrust in the democratically elected authorities.

                      I am astounded that you are trying to walk back this fascist lie.

                      You are a dirty low down liar deliberately spreading fascist misinformation.

                  • Jenny how to get there

                    Rosemary McDonald…

                    20 February 2022 at 10:16 am

                    That thousands of parents are opting to homeschool their children because over 12 year olds are being vaccinated without parental consent is a joseph Goebbels scale big lie.
                    Rosemary unless you are completely insane you know that this is a lie..

                    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018828760/homeschooling-on-rise-as-ministry-faces-application-backlog

                    Figures from the Ministry of Education show home-education applications in November jumped to nearly 900, well up from less than 200 the year before.

                    The ministry says so many applications are now being dealt with it is taking more than six weeks for each one to be assessed…..

                    That thousands of parents are opting for home schooling is not what I called you out on. I called you out on your lie that this was because over 12s are being vaccinated without parental consent.

                    I am astounded that you are still trying to walk back your fascist style big lie.

                    I don't doubt that there have been thousands of applications for home schooling. But Rosemary you deliberately lied when you tried to conflate the fact thousands parents applying for home schooling was because over 12s are being vaccinated without their parent's consent.

                    That thousands of 12 year olds are being vaccinated without parental consent, leading to their parents to seek home schooling, is a lie.

                    You are a liar.

                    "…..How about speaking with one of the thousands of parent opting to homeschool heir children because of nonsensical mask mandates and and without- parental- consent ‘vaccinations’ of over 12 year olds?." Rosemary McDonald

                    Rosemary you may think you are being smart conflating thousands of applications for home schooling with your lie that without parental consent 'vaccinations of over 12 year olds

                    But even if it was true that thousands of parents were opting for home schooling because of fears their over 12s being vaccinated without their consent. It is because of lying propagandists like yourself who are spreading fear with your malicious lies and misinformation. .

                    Spreading lies and misinformation to engender fear in the population is how a tiny minority of fascists can sway millions.

                    • Rosemary McDonald

                      I am fast losing my patience with you of the rather silly moniker.

                      I did not say there had been …."thousands of 12 year olds are being vaccinated without parental consent, leading to their parents to seek home schooling," ….. what I meant, clearly, was that the very real (and legally permitted) potential for under 12s to be vaccinated without parental consent was one of the reasons why so very many hundreds were pulling their kids out of school.

                      You have chosen to misinterpret what I wrote and drive me from commenting here for what reason?

                      Simply…because in your world, any opinion, however fact based and verifiable, is simply verboten.

                  • Jenny how to get there

                    Rosemary McDonald…

                    20 February 2022 at 12:21 pm

                    ….. what I meant, clearly, was that the very real (and legally permitted) potential for under 12s to be vaccinated without parental consent was one of the reasons why so very many hundreds were pulling their kids out of school.

                    Unbelievable!

                    Pardon me Rosemary but there is no mistaking your meaning.

                    You never said anything about it being a potential vaccination of children without their parents consent. That is not what you wrote. Instead of apologising for your lie, having been caught out, you are now trying to back peddle and cover up.

                    Incredible!

                    And you have added another lie. You have no proof that 'hundreds of parents' (down from thousands in your original lie) are opting for home schooling because of the 'potential' for forced vaccination of children without their parents consent.

                    You're just making stuff up to cover for your original lie.

                    Haven't you heard the saying, the cover up is worse than the crime?

                    You should be ashamed of yourself.

                    PR Tip: The Cover-Up is Always Worse Than the Crime

                    ……the cover-up is always worse than the crime. It’s one thing to be guilty of doing something wrong; it’s a completely other issue to be a deceiver, trying to hide the truth from the public. The former you can usually earn forgiveness for; the latter is much less forgiving.

                    And that’s the thing you need to keep in mind. The public is typically fairly forgiving. If you find yourself in the middle of a PR crisis due to something you’ve done wrong, your initial reaction might be to try to soften the blow by covering up the truth. But in just about every case, if you can find the courage to bite the bullet, admit you’ve made a mistake, and sincerely apologize for your actions, you can eventually earn the forgiveness of the public and start to win back their trust.

                    • Rosemary McDonald

                      Apologies. There is an obvious typo in that last comment of mine which I was unable to correct…the edit function not working for me.

                      I did not mean to write "under 12s" can be vaccinated without parental consent. I was getting ahead of myself in anticipation of responding to another comment about the effect of mandates/traffic light system on under 12s.

                      The rest of your comment is incoherent and I think you might want to go back and reread from the beginning.

                    • weka

                      I haven't read the whole of this thread, but early on Rosemary clarified what she meant,

                      …voicing this unsubstantiated claim of forced vaccination on children

                      No. I said that children over 12 could be vaccinated without their parents consent…not that there were forced vaccinations. Get it right. You can apologize by reply.

                      Why haven’t the police acted?

                      My suggestion is that you take a step back and stop making accusations.

                  • Jenny how to get there

                    @weka

                    weka…

                    21 February 2022 at 8:36 am

                    I haven't read the whole of this thread, but early on Rosemary clarified what she meant,

                    …voicing this unsubstantiated claim of forced vaccination on children

                    No. I said that children over 12 could be vaccinated without their parents consent…not that there were forced vaccinations. Get it right. You can apologize by reply.

                    Hi Weka, It pays to read the whole thread,

                    The quote you put up by. Rosemary McDonald is a lie.

                    Rosemary McDonald did not write children over 12 'could' be vaccinated without their parents consent.

                    "…..How about speaking with one of the thousands of parent opting to homeschool heir children because of nonsensical mask mandates and and without- parental- consent ‘vaccinations’ of over 12 year olds?." Rosemary McDonald

                    There is no 'could' in that sentence. Mary McDonald quite clearly states that 'thousands of parents are opting for home schooling because of mask mandates and WITHOUT – PARENTAL – CONSENT 'VACCINATIONS' OF OVER 12 YEAR OLDS

                    What a liar.

                    I think we on the Left often make the mistake of being too soft on those who spread Trumpian fascist type misinformation.

                    This softness in not challenging these liars, to let them freely spout their lies unchallenged can only see these lies believed by more and more people.

                    When I see them I call them out. And this was a particularly egregious and nasty lie.

                    Rosemary McDonald is a completely unrepentant liar. and propagandist for the anti-vaccination movement. I called her out for spreading misinformation, that children over 12 were being vaccinated without their parents consent and this was leading to thousands of parents to apply for home schooling.

                    When called her out on it, instead of apologising and retracting she lied and lied again.

                    This is not an accusation this is fact.

                    Rosemary McDonald31.2.3.1.1.2

                    18 February 2022 at 10:13 pm

                    @Jenny how to get there …yes I did say And there's no way in hell the kids are going to be forced to have the same shot that has made so many ill…..

                    Eventually she resorts to blaming a typo for her lie.

                    Rosemary McDonald…

                    21 February 2022 at 7:33 am

                    Apologies. There is an obvious typo in that last comment of mine which I was unable to correct…the edit function not working for me.

                    I did not mean to write "under 12s" can be vaccinated without parental consent…..

                    That it was a typo is another lie. It clearly wasn't.

                    Then she finishes with another made up 'fact'

                    ".. what I meant, clearly, was that the very real (and legally permitted) potential for under 12s to be vaccinated without parental consent was one of the reasons why so very many hundreds were pulling their kids out of school." Rosemary McDonald

                    Unbelievable!

                    Pardon me Rosemary but there is no mistaking your meaning.

                    …And you have added another lie. You have no proof that 'hundreds of parents' (down from thousands in your original lie) are opting for home schooling because of the 'potential' for forced vaccination of children without their parents consent.

                    You're just making stuff up to cover for your original lie.

                    Weka, you may tolerate this sort of lying bullshit.

                    But I won't. So I will not be taking your advice to take a step back. When I see this lying shit I will call it out.

                    Ban me if you like. But you will be remiss to not ban Rosemary McDonald as well.

                    Personally I can't help agreeing with Andrew Miller at the top of this thread..

                    Andrew Miller 31.2.3.1.1.1

                    18 February 2022 at 10:04 pm

                    I thought this deliberate spreading of false information wasn’t being tolerated and said posts removed?

          • Molly 31.2.3.1.2

            Jenny,

            This is an example of implementation failure rather than policy failure, but was reported in Herald and may be one incident or may be a systemic problem:

            Covid 19 Omicron outbreak: Parent's warning after daughter vaccinated without consent

            According to the Unite Against Covid-19 website, if the adult accompanying the child is not the child's legal guardian, the vaccinator must verbally confirm consent by phone with a legal guardian, or the adult must bring a signed copy of the Covid-19 vaccination consent form, completed by a guardian.

            However, the pharmacy's vaccinator asked for neither and after taking the child's personal information, including her date of birth, proceeded to administer Pfizer's paediatric dose.

            • Jenny how to get there 31.2.3.1.2.1

              Hi Molly,

              Joseph Goebbels the Nazi Minister of Propaganda, (That was his official title), and an expert on lying. Said that the most effective lies have a little bit of truth.

              For instance Donald Trump tried to claim that one incidence of ballots being found in a ditch, or river bed. or creek, (depending on who's telling the story) were evidence of widespread voter fraud. In an election where hundreds of millions of votes were cast.

              Rosemary uses the same fascist propaganda technique, where one reported incidence is slyly blown up into 'thousands' of forced vaccinations of children over 12 without parental consent..

              I called her on it.

              Her credibility is gone. I will be very surprised if she has the gall to ever comment here again.

              Trump said there were "a lot" of ballots; they were found "in a river"; and "they" threw them out because they were votes cast for him. About that…

              The New York Times noted this week, "It is remarkable, but not at all accidental, that a narrative built from minor incidents, gross exaggeration and outright fabrication is now at the center of the effort to re-elect the president."

              The first sign of trouble came eight days ago. Donald Trump, desperate to find evidence of voting irregularities, told reporters, "It was reported in one of the newspapers that they found a lot of ballots in a river. They throw them out if they have the name 'Trump' on it, I guess."

              A day later, at a campaign rally, the president pushed the same line, telling supporters that "they" found "many, many ballots thrown into a river someplace." The day after that, Trump started treating his claim as if it were common knowledge, saying, "They found many ballots, as you know, in a riverbed."…..

              ……Literally every element of this now appears to have been wrong. It comes on the heels of Team Trump also flubbing the details about alleged voter fraud in Luzerne County, Pa., which came on the heels of Attorney General Bill Barr flubbing the details about alleged voter fraud in Texas.

              The New York Times noted this week, "It is remarkable, but not at all accidental, that a narrative built from minor incidents, gross exaggeration and outright fabrication is now at the center of the effort to re-elect the president."

              https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/about-those-ballots-trump-said-were-found-river-n1241851

              [stop comparing Rosemary to Goebbels. I disagree with Rosemary on many things in this particular debate and sometimes call her out on her commenting style, but she is not a white supremacist fascist, intentionally using sophisticated techniques to shift people towards genocide. Critique what you see and stop making stuff up about intentions and stop using extreme comparisons to undermine her Godwin is unnecessary here, especially when we have actual neonazis involved in the protest. – weka]

              • weka

                mod note for you Jenny.

              • Jenny how to get there

                Yes indeed their are actual neonazia involved in this protest.

                And Rosemary McDonald is spreading the same outrageous lying anti-vaccination propaganda as the neo-nazis are.

                And she is doing it to the same end, to spread fear and distrust of the government, and sabotage our public health response.

                You ask me to step back for calling her out on it.

                But don't chastise her for her unrepentant lying.

                You will notice that I never called Rosemary McDonald a nazi. But I did point out to her that she was using the same Big Lie technique that Trump and the neo-nazis use.

                Yes there are nazis involved and Rosemary McDonald, whether she knows it or not is aiding them.

                She needs to be called on it.

            • Muttonbird 31.2.3.1.2.2

              I don't really understand the issue, to be honest. Mother sends daughter to be vaccinated. Daughter gets vaccinated.

              Job done!

              • Rosemary McDonald

                Believe it or not..and I care not either way…that was my initial reaction to this story.

                However protocols, and strict observance of them, are of extreme importance. This is serious stuff Muttonbird. Not only te Virus in all it's variations, but how we deal with it.

                On one hand there's lockdowns and mandates and punishments for those not complying… and on the other hand there are pockets of casualness that undermine the credibility of covid responses.

                • Jenny how to get there

                  So smooth so rational. What a liar.

                  When you have been actively lying to undermine our covid response.

  30. Robert Guyton 32

    Does Mickey say, "the majority of the protestors welcome what you term their (nazi) 'support'?

    I couldn't find that bit.

    Certainly, from what I have seen (lots) there has been precious little condemnation by protesters, of the "appalling" element.

    Have you, Rosemary?

    Can you link to such?

    • observer 32.1

      I have asked many times, Never get an answer.

      Counterspin are there every day. Their broadcasts are the protesters' megaphone. Do all the yoga you want, it doesn't change that.

      If you want to tell them they're not welcome, please do. Until then, don't complain that the rest of us have eyes to see.

    • The Chairman 32.2

      Certainly, from what I have seen (lots) there has been precious little condemnation by protesters, of the "appalling" element.

      That is because this so called appalling element is not the vast majority, thus their numbers are small and their antics are seldom seen if at all visible. Even the police admit the crowd is largely well behaved and generally work to quell any misbehaviour when and if seen.

      See link

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/wellington/300520466/live-police-not-taking-enforcement-action-at-parliament-protest-say-deescalation-is-the-only-safe-option

      • Robert Guyton 32.2.1

        The "appalling element" don't need to be the "vast majority" – they just need to be inside of the tent, like ticks…

        • PsyclingLeft.Always 32.2.1.1

          And they sure are inside tents "pissing out" as LBJ said about J Edgar Hoover. Which kinda begs the question………

        • The Chairman 32.2.1.2

          You get all-sorts at protests, it's just the nature of them.

          • Robert Guyton 32.2.1.2.1

            None of the protests I've been on had extremist-right-wingers in attendance.

            Nor did they have anyone hanging nooses from trees, nor calling for executions…

            • The Chairman 32.2.1.2.1.1

              Perhaps, the ones you've been on just haven't been as heated as this one.

              This has got some people really worked up. If you have had a son or daughter die or badly injured by this so-called safe and effective vaccine, you may be a little pissed off too. Who knows, you maybe even looking for blood too. Not that I am, to be clear.

              • just haven't been as heated as this one.

                Obviously too young to have been to any of the 1981 protests.

                But those protests were united, with a clear and laudable single purpose, not like this omni-shambles!

                • The Chairman

                  Obviously too young to have been to any of the 1981 protests.

                  I was there. That was real violence there. Unlike this current protest.

                  Best/Worse people can point to at this current protest is a noose and one or two mouthing off.

                  • Andrew Miller

                    I suspect you know that’s a complete lie.
                    The extent of threats, abuse and intimidation are well documented.

                    • The Chairman

                      Largely hearsay with one or two mouthing off.

                      Even the police admit it is a vastly peaceful protest in their statement today.

                  • Jenny how to get there

                    HI Chairman you say you were there. Where were you there?

        • Obtrectator 32.2.1.3

          … and they'll end by stinking it out, like bed-bugs ….

      • observer 32.2.2

        their antics are seldom seen if at all visible.

        Tell that to those on the receiving end, and there have been hundreds of reports, many linked here over the past 10 days.

        But of course you regard all the victims as an acceptable price to pay, like every armchair general who doesn't have to pay it.

        • The Chairman 32.2.2.1

          Tell that to those on the receiving end.

          Listening to the police, there doesn't seem to be much info on that.

          A lot of hearsay going around but no arrests or official investigations announced to date. But police did say they will look into any complaints. Moreover, have stepped up patrols around the vicinity.

          So it seems you are clutching.

          I think you would get far more violence and misbehaviour on a normal Friday or Saturday night down Courtenay Place than is coming from this protest.

          • Robert Guyton 32.2.2.1.1

            Yeah – it's quite common for the "Friday night crowd" to fly Trump flags and call for the lynching of politicians.

            Mr Chairman, you are a fool.

          • observer 32.2.2.1.2

            Pathetic response. Every weekend they don't put out statements like this, from everyone who has any role in central Wellington, business, education, the lot:

            "Those who live, work and go to school and university have been subjected to significant levels of abuse and harassment when attempting to move about in the area. There has been intimidation to Wellingtonians and city workers, and some residents have reported being too frightened or distressed to leave their homes."

            https://wellington.govt.nz/news-and-events/news-and-information/our-wellington/2022/02/joint-statement-by-wellington-community-leaders-on-protest

            But some guy online with "see no evil" hands on his eyes knows so much better than the people there? Breathtaking arrogance, and proof of what I said above – you simply do not care about other human beings, as long as you score your points.

            • The Chairman 32.2.2.1.2.1

              But some guy online with "see no evil" hands on his eyes knows so much better than the people there?

              Mate, I've been on the ground for a number of days. And there has been nothing of the sort happening. Even the traffic disruption is minimal. Most of the city isn't affected by it.

              And as I said, hearsay. There no arrests or official investigations announced to date to back up those assertion of things (your quoted link) being that bad.

              • observer

                I've been on the ground for a number of days. And there has been nothing of the sort happening.

                Since it has been, we know that one or both of those two statements is a lie.

                • The Chairman

                  Since it has been

                  You have no evidence of that. Just reported hearsay.

                  • McFlock

                    hearsay is indirect reports.

                    Claims from people who saw things directly, including actual reporters and people I know in real life, are not "hearsay".

                    • The Chairman

                      Claims from people who saw things directly, including actual reporters and people I know in real life, are not "hearsay".

                      Claims mean little when there is no evidence to back them.

                    • McFlock

                      Eyewitness testimony counts as evidence.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram

                    Claims mean little when there is no evidence to back them.

                    Such as your “more left than most” claims, notably @32.2.2.1.2.1.
                    Spot on analysis by observer. Chair, you really do have some cheek.

                • McFlock

                  I don't know about anyone else, but I do have friends who work in the area, and so do my colleagues.

                  Their stories of the daily abuse and deranged entitlement (with a hint of violence from this crowd) are fucking disgusting. A mask sets you up as a target for abuse, they're a nightmare if your building has to be open to the public to do your thing (so several have shut for the duration), any favour done for them is taken as of right (but ask them for a basic courtesy and they'll go off at you).

                  These aren't twitter folks or friends of friends of friends. These are stories from people directly on the ground, in private conversation.

                  But, hey, I guess nothing of the sort is happening.

                  • The Chairman

                    These are stories from people directly on the ground, in private conversation.

                    And without evidence they will remain just that, stories.

                    Next time, tell your associates to get some evidence.

                    A phone recording would help back up their stories. Got one?

                    Did they lay a complaint?

                    • McFlock

                      Gosh, whom should I believe. People I've known for years, or some internet fuckwit who thinks "laying a complaint" will serve any purpose when the cops can't even enforce the trespass act on parliament grounds?

                      It's such a conundrum. How will I every decide if this crowd is full of thugs and fuckwits? Without phone recordings, I'm only left with the protesters' own recordings, news footage, and photographs. Deary deary me, I guess I'll have to just split the difference and say there are good people on both sides 🙄

                    • Andrew Miller

                      So are you claiming all these people are lying?

                  • The Chairman

                    Eyewitness testimony isn't that reliable. Helps to have more. Especially when there are different eyewitness accounts of what has taken place.

                    I was watching a live-stream where a member of the public said to his friend on the phone that he was just walking pass all the nutcases.

                    He was masked and overheard, yet no one did anything. But if they did it could have looked as if he was harassed for no reason. So full context is also important.

                  • The Chairman

                    Laying a complaint" will serve any purpose when the cops can't even enforce the trespass act on parliament grounds?

                    The police said they will investigate all complaints.

                    If they didn't bother to lay one, it suggests it just wasn't that bad to bother about it or they had no evidence to back their claim.

                    • McFlock

                      No, it just suggests you have no idea. If you're actually there rather than bullshitting, you're delusional.

              • Robert Guyton

                You've been, " on the ground for a number of days", Chairman?

                If you are so willing to go public, please advise us as to where we can see you, " on the ground for a number of days" – there is plenty of video coverage and you surely must have appeared in plenty of it, having been, " on the ground for a number of days".

                Cheers!

              • Shanreagh

                Ha ha big joke. You are clearly not a Wellingtonian reliant on public transport to get to and from work, or work or live in that Thorndon area or need access to Wilton Wadestown, the old Hutt Road, Tinakori road or Thorndon Quay. people live in these areas and there are lots of little niche businesses relying on foot traffic or on ease of parking (see my friend's example below*)

                Of course there is not traffic, we can't get access and don't want to risk a run in with the protestors by forcing our car through and up Molesworth st. Most of us go different ways to avoid the possibility of confrontation though from tweets other streets in the wider Thorndon area are being parked out by protestors.

                If you go in blind and unseeing of course you won't see anything.

                Several women at a group I met today who work in that area of town as project managers on contract or on staff or who have their own business have not gone there since the protests began. Two are working from home, whereas before they would be working, actively shopping and meeting co workers in various cafes in that area. They used to shop at Thorndon NW and one went in while working from home to see appalling displays of refusals to wear masks and so is now shopping somewhere safer.

                *The other one has closed her business there and is working from another location in Kilbirnie. Very much less convenient.

                I went to Otaki yesterday and went to a bakery shop I usually go to. The shop owner looked very harassed and as well as the usual scanning sign there was a new sign on a stand on the footpath outside 'No mask no service'. She says that it was necessary since the protesters are coming through as they expected to be served without masks and came in, in large numbers unmasked to frighten the sole owner/server into serving them. The other thing they did was to congregate in numbers outside the shop staring in. When I was there a group of four younger women, maskless, stared through the window at what was happening.

                I left and on my way back to the car saw another similar sign outside another bakery. So obviously they had had a similar experience.

                Being an idiot about inconsequential but useful to others measure such as masking and distancing is not likely to endear people to your cause.

                These protestors are the poor hard done by people who cry a river about the hurt but have no hesitation in breaking rules that keep others safe.

  31. Reality 33

    Unbelievable that the police are now admitting the protesters are totally in charge and they have conceded that these bullies can strut around deciding who can or can't enter Parliament grounds and continue defacing the land and buildings.

    Can see in the future the kids will be in charge at schools so school hours will be 11am to 2pm and every school will have a KFC giving out free hamburgers, toddlers will get all the lollies they want at pre-school even if they get rotten teeth, patients in hospital will decide who has the next surgery and if they want a party in coronary care at midnight that's ok because they need freedom to have and do what they like, and if you feel like it, it will be ok to go round vandalising other people's property because you want freedom to express yourself.

    Far fetched admittedly, but scary too.

    • Blade 33.1

      No, it's not far fetched by any stretch of the imagination.

      Go back thirty years and see the quiet march of political and cultural correctness.

      Eg – parliament has just banned conversion therapy. Now the Rainbow community want their own government ministry. Next they will want trans gender quota in all government organisations… and they will get it.

      The Rainbow Coalition(?) has also visited schools. I can't really complain because some schools still have religious studies. Is it any wonder modern kids are stuffed up?

      Society wanted to get rid of that old crusty conservatism that supposedly blighted the 50s and 60s. They wanted a liberal society with a free to
      experiment vibe. They got it….

      So how police act should be no surprise…even though in this situation it is.

  32. McFlock 34

    It's beyond parliament grounds now. They're blocking building entrances in the blocks around parliament, and they're not even bothering to promise "no further territorial demands".

  33. observer 35

    Christchurch. Featuring Kyle Chapman and Philip Arps. Fascists for freedom?

  34. PsyclingLeft.Always 36

    "Among the group was Kyle Chapman, a former National Front leader who was previously arrested for allegedly breaching level 4 lockdown rules.

    And white supremacist Philip Arps, who is on trial for allegedly using obscene language to insult, swear at and offend three of his probation officers, and allegedly breaching his release conditions – and showed up at Christchurch District Court on Friday with a New Zealand flag draped over his shoulders and no mask – was also among the number, jeering at reporters for wearing masks."

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/127817868/protesters-take-fight-against-government-and-media-to-streets-of-christchurch

  35. Jenny how to get there 37

    Police seemingly cede control to protesters who are now controlling access to Parliament grounds, adding vehicles

    Henry Cooke14:00, Feb 18 2022

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300521075/police-seemingly-cede-control-to-protesters-who-are-now-controlling-access-to-parliament-grounds-adding-vehicles

    Parliament is still holding sessions. A few egos may have been dented, but our democracy is still able to go about its business.

    Personally I couldn't care less that these protesters have taken over a piece of grass that hardly anyone uses anyway. Except to eat their lunch and feed the seagulls.

    What really concerns me, is the so called freedom protesters vehicles left blocking the surrounding public roads and taking away Wellingtonians freedom to move about their own city.

    Not to mention curtailing the freedom of nearby businesses to conduct their trade.

    The illegally parked vehicles of the anti-freedom protesters need to be towed and impounded until they pay their fines.

    The Wellington City Council need to get on to it.

    Let us see how long these right wing glamping protesters last, without being able to retire to the comfort and amenities of their camper vans.

    Remember the moral panic created about boy racers taking over public roads?

  36. observer 38

    Yet another of the consequences of this shambles: courts in chaos and freedom denied:

    A man will spend several more months in custody because his trial – scheduled to start on Monday – has been abandoned due to blocked roads and protesters around the court building.

    Defence lawyer Phil Mitchell​ said it was “deeply ironic”.

    “People protesting about freedom have led to my client being remanded in custody till, we don’t even know when,” he said.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/127815188/freedom-protesters-cause-trial-delay-top-judge-says-situation-extremely-difficult

    The list of victims grows ever longer.

  37. barry 39

    When people don't believe in restrictions you pull out a copy of the electoral roll and tell them to pick out the 10 000 names that they want to die.

    • Cricklewood 39.1

      Sure, although in the case of mandates (if you believe in them) need to be extended to boosters immediately. You could make the same argument to the govt if they dont.

  38. Jenny how to get there 40

    Why are National Party MPs silent over the illegally parked vehicles blocking Central Wellington streets?

    Remember the time when the Nats went crazy over breaches to the road rules.

    Those were the days.

    Crushing a car is a good way to remind street racers of the law – Collins

    Kirsty Lawrence08:02, Aug 05 2021

    As boy racer tension revs up in Waikato, National leader Judith Collins says crushing a car is a good way to remind people the legislation still exists….

    …..Collins said she could sympathise with the frustration people were feeling over the issue, but she didn’t think there was an issue with the current legislation, rather the way it was being used……

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/125964113/crushing-a-car-is-a-good-way-to-remind-street-racers-of-the-law–collins

    Not much sympathy being voiced by Collins or the Nats with the frustrations people are feeling over being blocked out of their businesses or University campus or court by the 'Freedom Protesters'

    Nor any calls for the roading legislation around illegally parking to be enforced.

    • Cricklewood 40.1

      They dont have to say anything, its Labour's problem to deal with. The police have clearly put the ball in the govts court.

      • Ad 40.1.1

        Where it should be.

        Ardern caused this problem.

        She can fix it.

        • Cricklewood 40.1.1.1

          Sadly she won't, I cant see a way for her to back down. Very hard to roll back the comments made.

          Anyways, I'm firmly of the opinion mandates are now doing more harm than good so am off to Welly to put my money where my mouth is…

          • Ad 40.1.1.1.1

            Book a good lawyer Cricklewood.

            Keep commenting when you get there.

            • Cricklewood 40.1.1.1.1.1

              Not planning on needing a lawyer but yeah have long standing commercial relationships with partners at two of NZs largest firms so absolute worst case…

              Anywho I'll throw my 2 cents in when I get there… just in case I need saving from all the Nazis.

          • Barfly 40.1.1.1.2

            Enjoy your covid

          • Drowsy M. Kram 40.1.1.1.3

            Picking 2,500 new cases announced tomorrow – too soon to end mandates, imo.

            Third dose mandate may still be needed to counter winter COVID threat [18 February]
            Mr Andrews said unvaccinated Victorians will continue to be barred from restaurants and entertainment venues.

            The future of the vaccinated economy … is about balance,” he said on Thursday. “It’s about the proportional benefit that comes from it. It won’t be there forever.

            NZ’s vax mandates won't be there forever – is that what some protesters fear?

            • Cricklewood 40.1.1.1.3.1

              I read those numbers a different way, we are very highly double vaxxed and exponential spread is under way.

              So two choices, if you believe mandates will slow spread immediately extend the pass to 3 shots. The science is very clear about the huge difference a booster makes v Omicron

              Or remove them, will increase spread to the unvaxxed that venture out but will take the heat out the angernand I hope prevent long term damage to society.

              Doing nothing is the worst of both worlds.

              It's not fear, its desperation a huge mistake the govt made imo was not thinking about what happens when you remove someone's means to make a living. It's easy to say you can just get vaxxed but it was inevitable that we would end up with a percentage that would refuse. It was also inevitable that when financial pressure hit home they would react. It's no suprise.

              • Drowsy M. Kram

                Not only is it "easy to say you can just get vaxxed", it's also super easy to actually get vaccinated against Covid-19, as shown by the current Covid vaccination status of eligible Kiwis: 95.4% have at least one dose, 94.8% are double-vaxxed, and 64.5% have had a third (booster) dose, so by the time Omicron really starts to 'bite' at least two thirds of eligible punters will have the best available protection against severe symptoms.

                New Zealand is stepping up its response to slow the spread of the virus
                https://covid19.govt.nz

                Couldn’t support extending vaccine mandates to the general population, although I would prefer the number of boosted Kiwis to be higher – the number of Australian deaths attributed to Covid-19 has more than doubled during their Omicron wave.

                It's disappointing that our Government’s decision to prioritise the health of its citizenry during a pandemic has amplified divisions within NZ society – any division is regrettable given the challenges we currently face, let alone the challenges to come.

                All the best managing that "financial pressure" – sincerely hope that your chosen course of action will contribute to taking some heat out of the anger.

              • Molly

                "It's not fear, its desperation a huge mistake the govt made imo was not thinking about what happens when you remove someone's means to make a living. It's easy to say you can just get vaxxed but it was inevitable that we would end up with a percentage that would refuse. It was also inevitable that when financial pressure hit home they would react. It's no suprise."

                Agree. It's a failure of planning and strategy.

                Also interesting to witness the complete dismissal of any harm to those who have losses because they were unable to be vaccinated. There is no government strategy or policy to support them – just censure.

                I also empathise with those refused exemptions while under medical advice not to vaccinate. What a horrendous position to be in. What if that advice was given to a loved one? Your parent? Your child?

                • Rosemary McDonald

                  Also interesting to witness the complete dismissal of any harm to those who have losses because they were unable to be vaccinated. There is no government strategy or policy to support them – just censure.

                  I also empathise with those refused exemptions while under medical advice not to vaccinate. What a horrendous position to be in. What if that advice was given to a loved one? Your parent? Your child?

                  Needed to be highlighted and repeated.

                  Got a video message from friends from up here in Te Tai Tokerau this morning. Early. Sunrise on the Beehive, and a chalked message saying "We R here for Rosemary & Peter, Ka kite whanau!" Between our two families there are at least ten of us, vaccinated and unvaccinated, who have been directly and profoundly impacted by the Pfizer product and the mandates.

                  We are told by this kind government we don't count. Wrong. We count to the people who count to us.

                  • Molly

                    As someone who has always been against mandating medical treatment, my stance hasn't changed with the advent of Covid. My partner, who works in an essential service and juggling protocols and rosters, had an administrative stance that having fully vaccinated people was a necessity. Since then, he has seen the fallout from this position, and asked – why is there no allowance for those unable or unwilling to be vaccinated. We know the unwilling is a low percentage.

                    I would have assumed the government strategy would have taken into account those within the population who choose not to vaccinate. But it seems no number less than 0% needed to be included in the strategy and/or policy.

                    "We are told by this kind government we don't count. Wrong. We count to the people who count to us."

                    I don't think I am alone as a fully boosted person, in saying that you all are part of my team. I'm disappointed in our team leaders, and furious at them for having no strategy to deal with this, or the entirely foreseeable division of our people.

          • Grey Area 40.1.1.1.4

            Haven't you said that you’re off to Wellington several times already?

          • The Chairman 40.1.1.1.5

            You'll have a great time there, The vibe is amazing and something to experience.

            The people there are fantastic, friendly and very helpful

            You won't want to leave.

        • The Chairman 40.1.1.2

          Ardern caused this problem.

          She can fix it.

          Indeed.

  39. Interesting. Just listened to Chris Cahill on Checkpoint.

    He suggested that a strong police response not really possible because of the shit thrown at the police during the 1981 Rugby tour protests.

    Makes some sense.

  40. Ad 42

    Thank God the NZPolice have more sense than either Mallard or Ardern.

    Can't think of a better advertisement for the separation of powers.

    • Andrew Miller 42.1

      I’m assuming you don’t live in Wellington?

      • Cricklewood 42.1.1

        They can stop whingeing tbf, Auckland had it far worse for far longer.

        • Andrew Miller 42.1.1.1

          Ah yes, not being able to move around your city freely, attend class, come and go from your residence because of threats, intimidation and other illegal behaviour is whinging and the same as the ramifications of COVID, got it!

          • Cricklewood 42.1.1.1.1

            It's a minor inconvenience, ask me again in 6 weeks.

            • Andrew Miller 42.1.1.1.1.1

              Ah, so nice of you to decide what’s a minor inconvenience on behalf of others.
              Btw, does that include being spat in face?

  41. weka 43

    Actual Nazis at the Chch protest. Kyle Chapman and Philip Arps.

  42. Andrew Miller 44

    So the Government sits down with the protestors, the Government read their demands, the Government listens.
    The Government then responds and says, “sorry we believe these demands to be unreasonable, we continue to believe the decisions we’re taking are in the best interests of NZ. Any changes made will be based on the advice we receive and what we believe is best for the country.
    We acknowledge your right to disagree with all of this, but we’re unswayed and unconvinced by your arguments”.

    What then? Are apologists for the occupation seriously saying they think they’ll then up and leave having been heard out?

    • PsyclingLeft.Always 44.1

      Thats assuming the protestors to be Reasonable and/or Rational,and able to engage with. If there were any like that initially…they have long since bailed. Probably from disgust at the associated, assorted violent types.

      • Andrew Miller 44.1.1

        I agree completely, I was simply trying to see if those who think Government should be talking could actually follow through on the argument and explain what happens next and how this ends.

    • aj 44.2

      Televise live any meeting. Allow the public to see the case made by both sides.

      Please let the guy who Karen Hays interviewed earlier this week be the spokesperson for the protesters.

      • Andrew Miller 44.2.1

        Whether it comes across as Lincoln v Douglas or a complete clusterfuck, I don’t see how it addresses the ‘what happens then’ question.
        Surely either these people believe the government will capitulate in some way, or that the occupiers will up and leave despite achieving nothing.
        Neither of those scenarios seems remotely plausible, so we’re left with bullies holding the city/country to ransom.

        • Critical Thinking 44.2.1.1

          Can you explain why, in order for your vaccine to work I need the vax too?

          This thinking does not apply to any other vaccine ever. It is laughable.

          We have a mandate to reduce spread but omicron continues to spread and most places of interest are only accessible with a vax or negative test.

          It is not the unvaxed who are infecting the vaxed buy the vaxed infecting the vaxed.

          So what purpose do those mandates serve?

      • Robert Guyton 44.2.2

        Wasn't he…something!

    • The Chairman 44.3

      One expects they will have to be given something. Luckily, they have a list of demands.

    • Jenny how to get there 44.4

      Andrew Miller

      18 February 2022 at 8:37 pm

      So the Government sits down with the protestors, the Government read their demands, the Government listens.
      The Government then responds and says, “sorry we believe these demands to be unreasonable, we continue to believe the decisions we’re taking are in the best interests of NZ. ….

      …..What then? Are apologists for the occupation seriously saying they think they’ll then up and leave having been heard out?

      Hi Andrew,

      You ask; What then?

      I don't know if you would call me an apologist for this occupation, but n any negotiations you have to give a little to get a little.

      What is it we want?

      We need to be clear.

      The minimum disruption to our capital city should be our main concern and bottom line demand to bring to any negotiations with these protesters.

      The freedom of local businesses to trade and the freedom of city residents and visitors to get about.

      Personally I don't mind if these protesters camp out on the lawn of parliament all winter. That piece of sward is barely used, except by officer workers to eat their lunch and feed the seagulls. Even the MPs barely use it, preferring to make their way into parliament through other entrances.

      In the spirit of give a little get a little

      In exchange for the protesters agreeing to remove all their vehicles blocking the roads. The government agrees to drop the trespass order against the protesters camping on the parliament lawn.

      In the negotiations with the protesters, the government could also offer to provide proper toileting facilities in the form of maintained portaloos to stop them shitting all over our war memorial.

      Remember, give and take, carrot and stick

      If the protesters refuse our bottom line demands, The Wellington city council will threaten to bring the industrial sized forklifts from the Port Of Wellington to pick up all their vehicles and load them onto low loaders and impound them down at the port or other secure area, until all their parking fines are paid.

  43. McFlock 45

    This came up in my twitter feed.

    Regardless of its accuracy, it does raise the question (even as a thought experiment) of "what if the cops have reason to suspect that even a small, tiny, infinitesimal proportion of the otherwise peace-loving protest have guns in their vehicles?"

    I suggest that means that basically any strong action has the significant threat of not just violence, but gunfire. Changes things significantly.

    • weka 45.1

      Probably the most important thing I've read in the past few days (the thread), wish it wasn't just before going to bed though. That the police know something we don't know, and it's guns, actually makes sense of a lot.

    • Blade 45.2

      Spot on, McFlock.

      So we have that scenario v this scenario.

      Something has to give…but what?

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/127824549/parliament-protest-anger-builds-at-police-inaction-as-significant-weekend-influx-expected

    • Critical Thinking 45.3

      We have moved from attacking character to pain old making stuff up. In the past people used to say as a joke, it must be true I read it on the paper. It seems paper has been replaced by twits.

      You are promoting the same false narrative as the nazi claims. Baseless.

      Why are you so focused on finding anything that paints these protesters with a negative brush? Confirmation bias.

      It sounds like a very desperate approach. You haven't produced an argument in favour of mandates to counter their position.

      Shall we play your game. I heard that there are planted people in the crowd who are there to cause trouble specifically to smear the protest. These people are left wing extremists who dont think people should be allowed to protest or have a view that opposed the government.

      See the stupidity of "let's make up a story that suits our position."

      Of your vaccine works why do I need one to protect you?

  44. Jenny how to get there 46

    Why haven’t the police acted?

    Why haven't the Council acted?

    What is the Wellington City Council doing?

    Erin Gourley05:00, Feb 19 2022

    …..what is our municipal authority doing about it? They might not have responsibility for policing, but they do have powers over parking and noise and sanitation….

    ….The council has not been holding emergency meetings. “What would a council meeting do?” asked Foster.

    ……Seven councillors and Foster signed a joint statement, drafted by Wellington Central MP Grant Robertson’s office, requesting that the protesters immediately end their activities. “The people of Wellington have had enough of this illegal activity, harassment and disruption, we ask that it end immediately,” the statement said.

    Calvert did not sign the statement. “If I was a business or a resident near Parliament and I saw that, I’d say is that the best you can do?” she said.

    …..“As a councillor I want us to use the powers available to us. This disruption is a step too far,” she said. “Everyone is looking for appropriate action we can take.”

    https://wellington.govt.nz/your-council/about-the-council/selling-your-products-and-services-to-the-council/supplier-register

  45. Critical Thinking 47

    It never ceases to amaze me how people with weak factual positions always depose character attacks. They make up their own narrative and promote it as fact. Have any of you been to the protest and done a quick nazi headcount? That would be too easy. Instead you sit their on your keyboard fabricating all sorts of stories.

    So tell me this, the director of the RNZ college of GP's has stated publically that omicron is less lethal than the flu and now sits somewhere between a cold and flu.

    This interview is on stuff. His comments mirror what has been observed in every country with omicron, it's a bad cold. So why the panic? If your vaccine works then my vaccine status is irrelevant.

    Before you knock people exercising their democratic right have a look at the data. I haven't even touched on the govt failing to report vaccine status of cases. We all know if this was a pandemic of the unvaxed it would be all over the news. It would not be a good look for people to realise that a disproportionate number of cases are vaccinated.

    So before you all go of on your emotional tirades about people standing up for our rights, ask yourselves why you have ignored the data that completely vindicates their claims. When you attack the messenger it is clear you cant argue with their position.

    If that vax works why do I need one before yours works?

    • DS 47.1

      It might be comparable to flu in severity (for the vaccinated), but it is far more infectious. Which leads to worse health outcomes overall.

      Seen the death toll numbers out of Australia, mate? Does that look like a common cold to you?

  46. aj 48

    So tell me this, the director of the RNZ college of GP's has stated publically that omicron is less lethal than the flu and now sits somewhere between a cold and flu.

    Link please

  47. aj 49

    Thank you Weka

    • omicron is less lethal than the flu and now sits somewhere between a cold and flu.

    I read the whole article and he does not say that anywhere. This is what he said:

    He said when it comes to Covid, “most people have mild or moderate symptoms” of the Omicron variant. However, the Omicron variant is similar to a severe flu.

    • Robert Guyton 49.1

      "severe flu"?

      That's a killer, right?

      Severe flu – not to be sneezed at.

      • Shanreagh 49.1.1

        Severe influenza, I have had it, was hours away from being admitted to hospital, delirious and breathless, off work for two weeks, then half days for a couple of weeks and had influenza induced asthma afterwards. A few years later I get pneumonia while overseas and am hospitalised in Portugal The influenza left my lungs with a predisposition to lung based illnesses.

        So the Trumpian minimising by CT of Omicron is incorrect. As stated it is like a severe influenza and severe influenza can hospitalise you, kill you,. make you suffer after effects of long or short duration and leave you susceptible to other types of lung infections.

  48. Tiger Mountain 50

    Even the PM near the end of the linked piece, has not ruled out offshore money and influence being involved in this occupation.

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/02/odesc-convenes-top-national-security-officials-meet-to-discuss-parliament-protest-risks-and-implications.html

    I am not generally a big fan of the state security agencies because of their 5 Eyes fixation and track record of hounding Māori Nationalists and leftists rather than neo nazis and right wingers–but–if they aspire to being worth more than a tin of the proverbial, they should have identified by now exactly which of these apparent boofheads are actually a little more skilled and from the Steve Bannon stream of associates.

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