Key-Fletcher nexus: anti-democratic ‘Intelligence communities’

47 comments on “Key-Fletcher nexus: anti-democratic ‘Intelligence communities’ ”

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1. ianmac 1

   23 May 2014 at 12:32 pm

   The CL program covered a lot of ground. The difficulty is coping with that breadth. I like what Grant Robertson is doing in Question Time. He is focussing in on one small part at a time and getting better answers from Key. In spite of the Speaker blocking where he can.
   So well done Karol. A monumental task to sort the chaff.
   • Anne 1.1

     23 May 2014 at 1:06 pm

     Thank-you karol for your herculean efforts on the subject. I think your readership will be going far beyond the standardista community. There would seem to be few other people publicly subjecting this matter to the intense scrutiny it deserves.

     There is only one MSM outlet -apart from TV3- who has reported any of this story and that was Stuff yesterday. Within hours of the report appearing, Cunliffe’s references to “lies” and “Key being a liar” were expunged.

     I note the following claim now at the bottom of the article:

     This story has been edited to provide background and balance. An earlier version was published before these steps were taken.

     Bullshit and Jellybeans!! Those of us who saw the original will appreciate it is LESS balanced than before. 1/3rd of the story is now devoted to Cunliffe’s speech, and 2/3rds to Key’s responses to the CL programme. The previous was half in half.

     What I take from karol’s post is that Key has been quietly gathering more and more power to himself. And he is using it in the most despicable way. He bullies… he threatens… and almost certainly is using blackmail against those he knows have knowledge of his questionable dealings. His proud boast in the latter months of last year about his top drawer was a direct threat to them.

     He has the MSM exactly where he wants them, and most are too wimpish to stand up to them him. 1984 is here!!
     • Anne 1.1.1

       23 May 2014 at 1:17 pm

       …. most are too wimpish to stand up to him. (karol maybe you could correct in last line?)
     • Chooky 1.1.2

       23 May 2014 at 5:55 pm

       +100 Anne …and great post Karol

       I would like to know more about the American Intelligence Community and how it differs from the CIA

       http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Intelligence_Community

       Are intelligence services being privatised?…If so it very dangerous imo because they will no longer be under the jurisdiction of democratically elected governments…room for fifth columns and all that…and shadowy control from outside/foreign intelligence cabals
   • karol 1.2

     23 May 2014 at 1:38 pm

     Thanks, ianmac. And yes, Cunliffe and Robertson have focused on the Key’s role in appointing Fletcher.

     That was clearly signalled in the CL programme. Many have seen the CL programme as a fizzer. But, CL needS to tread carefully with the allegations they make. They did put the Key-Fletcher relationship in centre focus, and used those clips of Key clearly evading or being misleading about his meetings with Fletcher.

     The new information in the program emphasized the extent of Fletcher’s involvement with the GCSB, and Key, prior to his appointment – being given leave from his Queensland job, and coming to NZ laregly funded by the NZ government.
     • Sacha 1.2.1

       24 May 2014 at 2:16 pm

       “Key clearly evading or being misleading about his meetings with Fletcher” – lying, yes.
2. Wayne 2

   23 May 2014 at 1:42 pm

   Honestly Karol,

   All your speculation on this is starting to look ridiculous. Yes, New Zealand has a variety of intelligence agencies and co-ordinating committees, but so what. And the people in them regularly meet, including with their international counterparts. What is new here?

   As an example of your devotion to conspiracy theories, it seems to be significant to you that Lt Gen Jones went to CGSC for his senior staff course.

   This is something that New Zealanders have done for many decades (there was bit of a hiatus with the US following 1985). Our senior officers either go to the UK, Australia, Canada or the US for their senior course, since our defence force is too small to run a senior staff college. The course is a year long and is typically undertaken by Army Colonels, Navy Captains, and RNZAF Group Captains.

   Sure the Key government has put in the effort to improve New Zealands relations with the US – I was part of that. But that was intended to be all about normalisation of the relationship.

   As part of your spooky conspiracy theories, you could also add the fact that in 2012 I was a Senior Fellow at the Centre of Strategic and International Studies in Washington DC. They have now published my paper entitled “The New Zealand Paradox; Adjusting to the Change in the Balance of Power in the Asia Pacific over the Next 20 Years.”

   Happy to send you a copy by email.
   • Anne 2.1

     23 May 2014 at 1:53 pm

     This is something that New Zealanders have done for many decades (there was bit of a hiatus with the US following 1985). Our senior officers either go to the UK, Australia, Canada or the US for their senior course, since our defence force is too small to run a senior staff college. The course is a year long and is typically undertaken by Army Colonels, Navy Captains, and RNZAF Group Captains.

     And what dear chap, has that got to do with the price of fish? OR to spell it out for you – karol’s post? NOTHING. The post is nothing to do with the normal, run-of-the-mill military courses and exchange of personnel. You won’t fool anyone here with that nonsense.

     Are you concerned as to the quality of karol’s investigative skills so you seek to undermine them?
     • the pigman 2.1.1

       23 May 2014 at 4:06 pm

       It’s a curious mixture of scarcely relevant rambling and self-promotion, isn’t it? Breaking press release from Wayne Mapp: “The U.S. is undertaking a pivot to Asia in its foreign policy, I know this because I am kind of a big deal.”

       Designed to distract. Best treated as white noise.
       • Anne 2.1.1.1

         23 May 2014 at 4:27 pm

         It’s a curious mixture of scarcely relevant rambling and self-promotion, isn’t it?

         It is indeed.

         Wayne thinks because he gained some fellowship from somewhere or another – and he was once Defence Minister – that he is very important and clever. Well I’ve got news for him. In the course of a past career, I worked with some highly qualified people in the academic sense. I was initially in awe of them until I discovered some of them actually had very poor reasoning skills. They got their quallies by rote learning and were actually a bit dumb. 🙂
         • karol 2.1.1.1.1

           23 May 2014 at 4:40 pm

           To me, it’s not so much about the smarts, but about people’s underlying values – that’s where there’s a fundamental difference between many of us on the left, and many on the right of politics.

           I think for many that participate within Key and National’s networks in politics and the corporate and financial worlds, they share some underlying values that lead to views that just seem common sense to them. For many, within their world view, the things that are happening probably just seem sensible and accepted by a wide range of people.

           Many of the criticisms we make, just don’t match up with their world view – or the views of those struggling to survive, and whose voices just don’t get heard very clearly in the MSM.
           • Tracey 2.1.1.1.1.1

             23 May 2014 at 5:03 pm

             do you mean like regarding people who dont agree with them as bags of skin just getting in the way of their business?
             • karol …

               23 May 2014 at 5:14 pm

               Probably more benignly neglectful than that – that they don’t think so much about the people at the bottom of the heap at all – everything must often look good when the focus is on GDP, and business endeavours – the conventions and meetings of people focused on the reports of the CEOs and top diplomats. A world of its own, far removed from the struggle streets of many Kiwis.
               • JAK …

                 23 May 2014 at 6:12 pm

                 There is a border between your two worlds. John Key crossed it.
                 • karol …

                   23 May 2014 at 6:35 pm

                   Yes, and pulled up the ladder. He also aimed to leave his childhood life behind and aim to hob nob with those with power and money: his aim to be to succeed in the business world and to be PM. He learned early to play golf because he recognised that being a successful business person, meant participating in the “right” kind of social networking.

                   And the struggles of many relatively powerless Kiwis have changed from Key’s childhood days, as the shifts he has been part of have changed the whole context. It’s fairly easy to get out of touch.
                   • JAK …

                     23 May 2014 at 6:56 pm

                     “pulled up the ladder”

                     Do you mean that John Key has made it more difficult for children growing up in New Zealand to:

                     -desire to hob nob with those with power and money
                     -succeed in the business world
                     -be PM ?
                   • Will@Welly …

                     23 May 2014 at 7:17 pm

                     Aorangi School – part of John Key’s past, gone. Part of the master plan, eradicating his past. Soon all that will remain will be the immediate past – money trader, wealthy, and the present – influential, statesman, Prime Minister.
                     Orwellian.
                   • karol …

                     23 May 2014 at 7:27 pm

                     Key lived in a state house when his mother encountered hard times. He was able to go to uni, and get a job in finance trading.

                     His government has been doing way with state houses, and training/education allowances for beneficiaries. Young people have been hard hit by unemployment – few jobs, let alone ones that would lead to high incomes.

                     People can desire whatever they want – achieving it is another matter.
           • Anne 2.1.1.1.1.2

             23 May 2014 at 5:33 pm

             I agree with you karol but my comments were in relation to their general reasoning not their political leanings. Having said that, I wasn’t suggesting they were inbeciles – just that they weren’t as clever as they thought they were.
         • Wayne 2.1.1.1.2

           23 May 2014 at 5:15 pm

           Read the paper and make your own assessment of it. But you can hardly do so without reading it.
           • karol 2.1.1.1.2.1

             23 May 2014 at 5:54 pm

             Is it a paper or a book? I already have a reading list, and pile of books in front of me as long as your arm.

             Good of you to promote your own book, though.

             PS: Thanks for the offer, but I didn’t think I was making any comment about it.
           • JAK 2.1.1.1.2.2

             23 May 2014 at 6:15 pm

             Wayne, please provide a brief abstract.
             • Tracey …

               23 May 2014 at 6:49 pm

               just go and google it
         • Chooky 2.1.1.1.3

           23 May 2014 at 6:41 pm

           +100 Anne….lol
   • karol 2.2

     23 May 2014 at 1:53 pm

     Wayne, you have picked on a minor element in the post – Rhys Jones background, while ignoring more major details. It wasn’t so much that Rhys Jones did a course in the US, but that is was one focused on full spectrum joint, interagency and multinational operations

     Where am I “speculating” on major shifts that have occured under John Key’s oversight?: the amalgamation of the “intelligence community” as a more integrated body under the oversight of the PM – and following the model used in the US for its “Intelligence Community”; the shift of the GCSB (and 5 eyes) from focusing on physical/material security, to a focus on economic and commercial security; and the strongly aligned structural change in MFAT.

     Such things were indicated in the Campbell Live programme, and have been commented on by many others.

     Paul Buchanan’s piece on the need to keep the separation of intelligence powers as a check against anti-democratic intitiatives, is also very significant, as was Trotter’s piece on the shifts under Key’s watch to a more integrated “intelligence community”.
     • Wayne 2.2.1

       23 May 2014 at 5:33 pm

       Karol,

       So what if that was his area of study, it is pretty important for senior officers. For the last 20 years defence doctrine has been all about multinational joint operations. A recommendation of the Select Committee Report in “Defence Beyond 2000”, was for a Joint Headquarters, in fact a specific suggestion by myself. The Clark govt implemented it around 2001.

       And the same logic has driven a closer integration of intelligence agencies with other parts of govt, including defence.

       It is largely driven by synergies of IT technology – everything can be joined up in a way that was not possible in the past.

       As noted above it has been happening for a while. It is not a secret. Over the last twenty years there have been hundreds of specialist defence books and articles on it.

       Probably the concept had its first big operational deployment in the Gulf War of 1991.
       • Anne 2.2.1.1

         23 May 2014 at 6:01 pm

         I believe you are deliberately missing the point Wayne. Here is karol’s summary at the end of the
         post:

         The Campbell Live programme pointed to shifts towards NZ Inc, closer ties with the US, and an invasive state surveillance apparatus. At the centre of the shifts is the relationship between John Key and Ian Fletcher. The programme features clips showing how Key tried to avoid admitting to the extent of this relationship; especially with regard to Key’s role in appointing Fletcher to the GCSB job.

         The concern is not so much the changing nature of intelligence gathering apparatus and technological advances associated with it, but rather the profoundly invasive way they are being used. It is unnecessary, immoral and unethical that millions of individuals around the world are having their privacy invaded for no justifiable reason. It is dangerous and will ultimately destroy the democratic governing practices to which all peoples are entitled.

         Yes, you’re right. The concept did have its first operational deployment in the first Gulf War of January/February 1991. No problems with that. The problem lies with the massive upgrading of the surveillance undertaken since then – a surveillance that smells strongly of excess power plays and paranoia.

         That can only lead in one direction – death and destruction.
         • Tracey 2.2.1.1.1

           23 May 2014 at 6:07 pm

           Wayne cherrypicking? Say it isnt so.
         • Chooky 2.2.1.1.2

           23 May 2014 at 6:52 pm

           +100 Anne..”The concern is not so much the changing nature of intelligence gathering apparatus and technological advances associated with it, but rather the profoundly invasive way they are being used. It is unnecessary, immoral and unethical …”

           ….and I suspect Dotcom and his so-called “misdemeanors” in New Zealand (there are far bigger cloud storage systems in the USA which Hollywood moguls are not going after) is being used as a scapegoat and a pretext for this intrusive spying and violation of New Zealanders civil liberties…

           ie John Key and mates are arguing that they need to spy on New Zealanders and persecute Dotcom to stop infringement of copyright ( pull the other one!)

           New Zealand is a peaceable country and New Zealanders are a peaceable people…we dont deserve this!…..There is something rotten going on in the State of New Zealand
           • Anne 2.2.1.1.2.1

             23 May 2014 at 7:14 pm

             +1 Chooky.

             And Key is leading the charge from the NZ end. No prizes for guessing why… he thinks its in his best interest.
       • karol 2.2.1.2

         23 May 2014 at 6:53 pm

         Yes, I realize there’s a background of shifts in a particular direction. Key has followed it much more enthusiastically than Clark. The likes of Goff are more supportive of it than many others on the left.

         The changes in digital technologies have been incorporated into the mix.

         As part of my research for this post, I looked at this pdf document, published by James Clapper in March 2011.: “Statement for the Record on the Worldwide Threat Assessment of the U.S. Intelligence Community for the Senate Committee on Armed Services ”

         There’s a lot about the threats posed from countrie outsoutsidee 5 Eyes, Western sphere: Iraq, Chine, etc.
         Then there’s this section:

         Intelligence Threats and Threats to US Technological & Economic Leadership Intelligence Threats and Threats to US Technological & Economic Leadership
         […]
         We are also undergoing a phenomenon known as “convergence,” which amplifies the opportunity for disruptive cyber attacks, including against physical infrastructures. This phenomenon means that the same networks and devices are processing a full range of data and support a full range of applications, from banking to social networking, from supply chain management to patient health records. This convergence adds much convenience, but it poses new security challenges across a swath of our government and economy.

         It covers “cyber threats” and later goes on to export controls and economic imbalances.

         And this was at the same time, as now revealed by the Snowden material, the NSA was developing a whole range of powerful and invasive digital capabilities.

         It is of extreme concern to many of us, that very powerul systems of control and devastation, are being incorproated in the intelligence services and related government structures usually more focused on physical threats, , in ways that undermine democracy. And in doing this, wealthy corporates are being empowered and US coproates are being protected and promoted internationally.
       • Robert M 2.2.1.3

         28 May 2014 at 3:09 pm

         It would be difficult to see any merit in the term as MOD Wayne Mapp or his ridiculous deputy the actor Private Heather Roy. During Wayne Mapp’s term, Defence spending was cut significantly, as was the RNZN fuel allocation, leaving much of the fleet laid up, most of the time. Defence wages for ratings remained far below those of the police, even for far more able and qualified military personel and the inadequate officer pay and fuel allocation mean many mid rank officers deserted the services for Australian industry or its military.
         The excuse was made that the RNZAF Aermacchis could not be returned to service because their engines were no longer servicable. Hower 8/9 of MB339Cs are now being used for military training in the United States and it is unlikely that the cost of refitting 10/12 Aermacchis with new engines and provision for light armament for training with the Navy or Army would have been prohibitive. I would suggest a light armament of a 30mm gun, rocket laucher attachment and ability to carry 2/4- 500/1000lb bombs would have been all that was required of for coastal intervention against say a boatload of gureillas has been heading towards our coast, say if in 1998 Clinton had directed the US and Australia to pressure Indonesia with Economic sanctions and economic pressure through the banking system which seems to be part of the reason we were offered the FFGF-7s and F-16s second hand.
         The current Nationals defence programme remains very light with the proposal for extensive furthur refitting of already 14/16 yr old Anzacs unlikely to be completed until they have been 20 years in the water, an age usually considered unsuitable for modernisation given structual deterioration after significant year at sea. The extra third hand RAN/USN Seasprites seem only suitable for training and training maintenance crews and some spares. The Penquin helicopter anti ship missiles may be useful but the long range British Sea Ceptor anti aircraft missiles seem a bizarre acquisition in this part of world.
   • Tracey 2.3

     23 May 2014 at 2:33 pm

     Honestly Wayne

     how often as a minister did you get briefed on, and involved in, the appointment of someone to head your ministry, suggest someone, then agree to contact them, contact them, appoint them, and within months forget all about your role in the hiring but wrongly “remember” it was the other guy at your meeting who did what you did?

     misleading the public of nz a or lying to them, may not matter to you, but dont belittle those who do care.
   • Tracey 2.4

     23 May 2014 at 2:38 pm

     by key govt you mean winston peters under the last coalition labour govt… god, the way you guys twist things is incredible. its like you all have selective amnesia. let me help… condoleza rice and winston made the big thaw.
     • karol 2.4.1

       23 May 2014 at 2:52 pm

       I think Wayne would agree with you – ie that Key’s government hasn’t been doing anything much that Labour hasn’t been doing, bar in the Rogernomics/Lange period.

       The Clark government did oversee some thawing of US-NZ relations. As Hagar has often pointed out, even under wher watch, when she was putting breaks on getting involved in the Iraq etc., the GCSB happily collaborated with US initiatives.

       The resort to dismissing an overview of the way things have shifted under under Key as “conspiracy theory” is frustrating.

       I’m not talking about a carefully planned and orchestrated conspiracy, but networks of people, with similar views, drawing on various resources within their networks when necessity and/or opportunities arise.

       I have little evidence of the details of how some things happened, or the motivations of various players. I am mapping the changes I can see from the publicly available evidence.

       under Clark, there was a bit of a holding pattern, not getting too far into the “neoliberal” way of doing things, as led by the US.

       Under Key, there have been clear structural shifts in the likes of MFAT and the intelligence services, towards systems and structures that favour international trade and commerce as dominated by big corporates.
       • Tracey 2.4.1.1

         23 May 2014 at 2:57 pm

         well put.

         greens have caught the pm making stuff up in parliament again…
       • Robert M 2.4.1.2

         28 May 2014 at 3:18 pm

         We will never know, as the tapes of the Clark conversations with Condi and W43 and his inner Cabinet are never likely to have been released, but it is certainly the case that Clark has been quite a strong acceptor of the GCSB and an expanded role for it , for a long time, ie as early as 30 years ago. I happen to know that shortly after Owen Wilkes on a butterfly collecting mission discovered Tangimoana , that Clark after considering the issue and Muldoons statement on the station, Clark decided it was OK ( I talked to her on the phone several times about this at the time). Also plenty of sources will tell you that Clark was a stong supporter of the establishment of Waihopai and a great enthusiast for the intelligence input and discussions with her Generals.
3. Tigger 3

   23 May 2014 at 1:58 pm

   Karol, I want you to know your work on these sorts of things is very appreciated. Great post.
4. repateet 4

   23 May 2014 at 3:47 pm

   The use of the Maxwell Smart on here is totally uncalled for! It brings to mind the image of Judith Collins as Agent 99. Calling from somewhere in China too. Hiding under a table ( of the private dinner sort), reporting to the chief.
   • karol 4.1

     23 May 2014 at 3:51 pm

     I’m not sure how that image got there. I may have omitted to put an image in, and someone else added that one.
     Changed it.
5. Charlieboy 5

   23 May 2014 at 4:15 pm

   Karol, great post, and great additional from Anne. I get the feeling,that with this sort of digging down, sooner or later the dam will burst.The Right is certainly worried, as is seen by their ridicule attacks . Anne is right, there is a level of fear out in the media, and you do have to applaud Campbell for his efforts. Where is that really brave deep throat out there in the hinterland, we need you now.
6. fisiani 6

   23 May 2014 at 5:15 pm

   Karol Great post. Keep up the great work. This is truly resonating with voters everywhere. Everywhere I go I hear people telling me that they cannot trust John Key after the astonishing Campbell Live revelations of something about spying. The next polls will see National plummet to below 40% and John Keys rating to fall to single figures to match The Cunliffe. Keep up the digging for another 17 weeks.
   • Paul 6.1

     23 May 2014 at 5:33 pm

     You are such a bore.
     • Chooky 6.1.1

       23 May 2014 at 7:02 pm

       Paul dont be horrible .. fisciani is telling the truth
7. Charlieboy 7

   23 May 2014 at 5:32 pm

   Bingo!
8. Lou 8

   23 May 2014 at 8:31 pm

   GREAT, thought-provoking post, Karol. My heart sank as I watched CL, as it laid out the worst of my fears. BUGGER, I came to this fair country to get away from this sort of CRAP!!
9. Tanz 9

   24 May 2014 at 6:48 am

   Under Key’s watch, beneficiaries can no longer study full time. He has certianly pulled up the ladder up and he does all he can to eradicate his less than glossy childhood. He worked for the corrupt co of Merryl Lynch, that was the platform to his ill-gained fortune.

   He is a liar and a theif and worst of all, an arrogant show pony. Ego driven. He is startiing to lose a lot of credibility. The MSM are drones though.

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