Open mike 04/07/2022

90 comments on “Open mike 04/07/2022 ”

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1. Tiger Mountain 1

   4 July 2022 at 7:44 am

   Anyone tried “Tribel” social media application yet? Americans, including AOC and Cori Bush on what can be called their left, have been pumping it up the last few days.
2. Sacha 2

   4 July 2022 at 8:11 am

   A moment of nationhood

   https://twitter.com/ThreeLampsFilms/status/1543345263850721280
   • lprent 2.1

     4 July 2022 at 9:43 am

     Ah that probably explains the lack of on street parking by my place on saturday.
     • Mac1 2.1.1

       4 July 2022 at 12:40 pm

       50,000+ spectators at Eden Park. How many cars at, say, 7m parking? 5000 cars means 35 kilometres of parking needed!
       How far are you from the park? 🙂
       • lprent 2.1.1.1

         6 July 2022 at 8:26 am

         According to google maps. About 2.1km walking – 26 minutes.

         We're also conveniently placed at the corner of K Rd and Ponsonby for pre and post match social action.

         Before large matches, the parking fills up early in the day.

         Better now that they have put in parking meters – but now I really notice the matches. But they really should start charging for weekend days as well as weekdays. It often takes days to clear the excess of vehicles.

         I’m not a fan of premium sport. Probably partially because I have spent most of my life living within walking distance of Eden Park and the kind of lack of consideration that sports grounds and fans often show to residents. Lights, action, cars (often parked across driveways and verges) and bloody planes buzzing around.
3. joe90 3

   4 July 2022 at 8:22 am

   Erdoğan has picked a side.

   Turkey has detained a Russian cargo ship carrying alleged Ukrainian grain, Kyiv's ambassador to Turkey said on Sunday, according to Reuters.

   Ambassador Vasyl Bondar said in an interview with Ukrainian television that Turkish custom authorities had seized the Zhibek Zholy, a Russian-flagged vessel carrying 7,000 tons of grain from the Russian-occupied port of Berdyansk, Reuters reported.

   "We have full cooperation," Bondar said, according to the report. "The ship is currently standing at the entrance to the port; it has been detained by the customs authorities of Turkey."

   https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine-turkey-detain-russia-grain-ship/
   • joe90 3.1

     4 July 2022 at 9:00 am

     It'll be a doddle, they said.

     /

     https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1543491063733690372
     • lprent 3.1.1

       4 July 2022 at 10:02 am

       The situation for Russia only gets worse. They are using their older munitions, with all of the issues that entails.They have limited resupply – probably almost entirely from local manufacture (I can't see anyone else shipping munitions to them). That all impacts on their ability to get air superiority and accurate bombardment wepons.

       Hence the increasing use of dumb attacks on civilians with the ridiculous cover stories that are refuted by external journos on the ground.

       They have used up most of their pre-invasion contract units. Dorsn’t sound like there is a rush of people towards getting contracted in. Reads like their only plan was a short victorious war with ni idea how to handle that not working.

       The supply of equipment munitions, and supply of components to Ukraine is stepping up. They are getting toward being fully mobllised and trained. They are also in no mood for another shit-arse settlement in place – who in the hell could trust the Russian Federation again?
       • Sanctuary 3.1.1.1

         4 July 2022 at 11:37 am

         I wouldn't be so sure. It is almost impossible to get an accurate view of the state of the Ukrainian armed forces. Potentially they could be at the stage of the attritional battle where they are tottering on the brink of collapse, or they may be able to feed fresh troops into the fight. We just don't know.
       • Bearded Git 3.1.1.2

         4 July 2022 at 11:54 am

         I don't buy this….while Russia failed badly in its main objective it is now gaining and consolidating large tracts of land in the east….only this morning another key town fell (I forget the name). Once Russia has the whole of Dongbas and the areas around the Black Sea it will sue for peace with these not inconsiderable gains and the West will accede cravenly
       • Tiger Mountain 3.1.1.3

         4 July 2022 at 7:40 pm

         Go the arm chair Generals!
       • Adrian Thornton 3.1.1.4

         4 July 2022 at 10:03 pm

         @Iprent
         You write your comment like it is undisputed fact..how about some links from some credible sources to back up all your assertions….as of course we all should when making controversial claims on important issues, I seem to remember being actively encouraged to do so by moderators myself.
         • lprent 3.1.1.4.1

           5 July 2022 at 7:20 pm

           That is my opinion based on a number of sources for a post that I was writing.

           I'll be happy to drop in sources in a few days when I get time to finish the post. It got interrupted by a cold over the weekend. I'm behind at real work as well and back on excessive hours.

           If you pick out your highest level of disagreement, then I will be happy to dig out links for that. But FFS, you only have to look at the legislation that is going through the Russian parliament at present. Looks like they’re trying to de-unionise their military repairs industry.
           
           In the meantime. – resurrecting T62 tanks? A bill going through the russian parliament ordering overtime for repairs. Using a anti-shippig missile on a shopping mall – either the most inaccurate shot ever (especially given the type of missile), or it was a deliberate targeting of civilians. The most favourable explanation is that they're just firing old dumb unsuitable missiles from long range (and really don't give much of a shit about where they land).

           You could also look at this analysis from the economist behind the paywall.

           The UK MoD has been doing some good military analysis. So has the ISW.

           Obviously the Russians aren't announcing their casualty figures, nor have their minion 'republics' in the Ukrainian territory. But the BBC has been doing some work on specific elite regiments. etc…

           You probably need to read more widely, and concentrate on military analysis.
   • Ad 3.2

     4 July 2022 at 10:00 am

     Turkey is on Turkey's side.

     Yesterday they blocked DW and several other broadcasters.

     Erdogan and Putin have a strong relationship that has developed through Syria and extends to Armenia and beyond.

     Turkey’s leverage over Russia – in Syria and beyond (lowyinstitute.org)
     • Sanctuary 3.2.1

       4 July 2022 at 11:41 am

       Erdogan is similar to Putin in that while Putin holds Tsarist fantasies of restoring the Romanov empire at it's fullest extent he has a yearning to reinvent modern Turkey into a major power, forget the Ataturk era and re-forge something akin to a new Ottoman empire.

       They are both neo-Fascist dictators with all the usual romantic irridentist baggage that comes with that.
       • Cricklewood 3.2.1.1

         4 July 2022 at 12:18 pm

         Basically any Leader that changes the laws or constitutional arrangements to allow new term limits or a ruler for life type scenario is despot in waiting.
   • Populuxe1 3.3

     4 July 2022 at 10:49 am

     Erdogan is between a rock and a hard place with Russia – there is cooperation over Syria and a shared border but at home he has to deal with 650 years of deeply-ingrained hostility and pressure from NATO.
4. weka 4

   4 July 2022 at 11:29 am

   humorous follow up to a recent convo about peer review

   https://twitter.com/PainBurel/status/1543060251611746304
5. DavidJ 5

   4 July 2022 at 2:34 pm

   Hold on to your hats…the Australians are coming after Hairy Maclary!

   Hairy Maclary author Lynley Dodd responds to academic's claim book is outdated, lacks diversity | Newshub
   • swordfish 5.1

     4 July 2022 at 9:41 pm

     .

     "Hairy Maclary" ??? … more like Hairy Trans-smeary !!!

     Dodd doesn't even attempt to portray pregnant male dogs of colour challenging cis-heteronormative-white-supremacist discursive strategies through a Lyotardian non-binary intersectional lens anchored within a Foucauldian trans-inclusive and anti-fatphobic theoretical understanding of systemic power relations.

     One thing's for sure: Queer theorists of colour, mana wahine and the gender-nonconforming aren't even remotely safe while jackbooted neo-nazi thugs like Dodd are wandering the streets.
     • Shanreagh 5.1.1

       4 July 2022 at 10:25 pm

       Very clever Swordfish!

       And I am sure it hasn’t gone unnoticed by other eagle eyed ‘unreconstructed 1970s feminists’ than myself that the books also do not mention separate changing rooms or toilet facilities.

       If Lynley Dodd was of a mind to launch into revisions to Hairy’s gadding about in a non threatening biologically excretory focussed way ensuring that dogs were in the ascendant at all times this could be quickly remedied. Actually no poos or wees in the books and this is surely trying to inculcate other wordly thoughts as it is not possible for anyone or dog to go hours and hours without needing a toilet brak

       We need to look at Spot too.
     • RedLogix 5.1.2

       5 July 2022 at 7:48 am

       Coffee snort!
     • Muttonbird 5.1.3

       5 July 2022 at 9:42 am

       Not sure it's Lynley Dodd they are not safe from!
     • DavidJ 5.1.4

       5 July 2022 at 1:05 pm

       Brilliant response. Thank you, you've made my day (and a very wet day it is)!
6. Puckish Rogue 6

   4 July 2022 at 4:12 pm

   The detrans wave is building, won't be long before the first lawsuits happen. Things are going to get interesting.
   • weka 6.1

     4 July 2022 at 4:28 pm

     Ritchie Herron is suing the NHS. His story is harrowing, and graphic. Hope this will make some people sit up and take notice.

     https://archive.ph/nRGUn (link to The Times)
   • Muttonbird 6.2

     4 July 2022 at 4:45 pm

     Jordan Peterson recently claimed gender affirming surgery is a criminal act, just one which is not criminal right now. He calls gender affirming surgeons, "butchers", and likens them to those who carried out Nazi medical experiments:

     https://twitter.com/thebadstats/status/1542930870012563456

     Ironic, eh?
     • weka 6.2.1

       4 July 2022 at 5:09 pm

       What’s the irony?
       • Muttonbird 6.2.1.1

         4 July 2022 at 5:26 pm

         The irony, for me anyway, is that the teachings of Jordan Peterson are far closer than gender affirming surgeons to Nazism.

         Forced monogamy, and outlawing transgenderism, etc. These two things alone strongly reflect what Nazis were all about. Extreme social control by and for a selected majority.
         • Molly 6.2.1.1.1

           4 July 2022 at 5:37 pm

           Jordan Peterson is not the best source when looking for clinical evidence of benefits/harms of current interventions in trans healthcare.

           He provides his opinion, not clinical evidence.

           There are sources not so easily dismissed on the iatrogenic harms of 'affirmation only healthcare':

           https://segm.org/
           • Muttonbird 6.2.1.1.1.1

             4 July 2022 at 6:06 pm

             Copy that.

             Is Trump supporting, male to female, Blaire White a good source when looking for clinical evidence of benefits/harms of current interventions in trans healthcare? That is the source Puckish Rogue initiated this thread with.

             I have not watched the Blaire White interview because it is 17 minutes long (I can watch stuff on the internet under 2 minutes, that's it), but I will admit she is slightly more credible than Jordan Peterson on this issue, so thank you for that.
             • Molly …

               4 July 2022 at 6:30 pm

               When my children use the excuse they were only copying the behaviour of their siblings, my response is – that's not a good enough reason to do so. But you are not a child – and definitely not one of mine, so that's not appropriate.

               If you want to find information rather than play footsies, visit SEGM.

               If you have something going on with Puckish Rogue, you want to continue, go ahead…
               • Puckish Rogue …

                 4 July 2022 at 6:40 pm

                 Muttonbird has always been a little bit jealous of me, I'm not entirely sure why though
               • Muttonbird …

                 4 July 2022 at 6:49 pm

                 Thanks Mom, but I know Puckish Rogue is your favourite.
                 • Puckish Rogue …

                   4 July 2022 at 7:46 pm

                   I don't know about Molly but I'm your Daddy
             • Puckish Rogue …

               4 July 2022 at 6:39 pm

               So you don't watch the interview but you'll disparage it anyway.

               You do you.

               But maybe people who detransition or regret transitioning in the first place feel comfortable talking with her because she doesn't toe the expected party line

               There is a line the pro-transitioners would have you believe and that is no one regrets transition and that once you transition all your mental health problems (by which they mean suicide) goes away

               This is false

               Some more interviews shes done on the subject
           • Adrian Thornton 6.2.1.1.1.2

             4 July 2022 at 10:23 pm

             Jordan Peterson is nothing more than a snake oil salesman, he is not the best source on anything.

             His appeal is stern father figure in an uncertain age…his popularity with young people is a very sad but also very telling indictment on the hollowness within our western society.
             • Molly …

               5 July 2022 at 10:39 am

               It's not Jordan Peterson, it's the pattern of ignoring what information is being presented and diverting the discussion to the merits of someone else, who is not the best source for considered insights on this topic.

               I don't like him personally, and I have read one of his books and skimmed through another, and watched a few of his videos. (We had a young man living with us, who was enamoured and I wanted to see what the attraction was).

               However, he was right about compelled speech in Canada. Successful law suits in regards to misgendering have proven that right.

               At the time, I looked for critiques of his thinking, and read multiple opinion pieces – from law societies and lawyers saying he was over-egging the omelette. Now, I understand the legislative, political and social culture in Canada at the time was not what I thought.

               He was right about compelling speech. That does not mean he was/is right about everything. However, he was introduced to this thread by Muttonbird, to what purpose?

               Puckish Rogues first link was to Blaire White interviewing a person who I have watched on Youtube and read accounts of called Shapeshifter. These are people, not only with opinions but direct experience of undergoing medical interventions and have something to contribute.

               Worth watching, or finding their written accounts if you have the time.

               As weka mentioned, a court case is being taken against the NHS for failure to provide appropriate care. Ritchie Herron is one of many who have taken time to write about their private experiences:

               https://archive.ph/dA1wn
               • felix …

                 5 July 2022 at 7:17 pm

                 The most interesting thing about Peterson is that none of his critics ever have a problem with anything he actually says.
                 • Muttonbird …

                   5 July 2022 at 7:21 pm

                   Well, now you are just talking like Herr Doktor himself.
                   • weka …

                     5 July 2022 at 7:25 pm

                     you mean he had a point?

                     I don't like JP, pretty sure I can make an argument against what he says rather than just saying in different ways I don't like him. Why not try that?
                   • felix …

                     5 July 2022 at 7:35 pm

                     You just provided a near perfect example of the phenomenon downthread, so thanks.
                   • Muttonbird …

                     5 July 2022 at 7:48 pm

                     There are so many objectionable things he says, where to start is the problem.

                     Still, he has fallen silent on Twitter for the moment because they banned him and deleted yet another hateful content tweet, this time about Elliot Page. And this is Twitter we are talking about.

                     So that is something.
                   • felix …

                     5 July 2022 at 7:58 pm

                     So many objectionable things that you can't think of a single one to quote without being made to look a fool.
                   • Muttonbird …

                     5 July 2022 at 8:02 pm

                     You are right that anyone quoting Jordan Peterson would look like a fool.
                   • felix …

                     5 July 2022 at 9:04 pm

                     You're still doing it you know.
         • Puckish Rogue 6.2.1.1.2

           4 July 2022 at 6:31 pm

           What the hell I'll take the bait.

           'Forced monogamy' link please

           'outlawing transgenderism' link please
           • Muttonbird 6.2.1.1.2.1

             4 July 2022 at 7:21 pm

             https://www.theguardian.com/fashion/2018/may/23/jordan-peterson-public-intellectual-isnt-clever-violent-men-monogamy

             https://www.marca.com/en/lifestyle/celebrities/2022/06/30/62be1b74e2704e92438b456c.html

             Herr Doktor a dangerous nut job and attractive to the likes of yourself.

             Not a coincidence.
             • Puckish Rogue …

               4 July 2022 at 7:47 pm

               Are you able to copy and paste here something he said, yes or no?
               • Muttonbird …

                 4 July 2022 at 7:57 pm

                 You asked for links and I provided them.

                 Reading is my preference but I do know some like to post videos because they find reading difficult.
                 • Puckish Rogue …

                   4 July 2022 at 7:58 pm

                   So thats a no then
                   • weka …

                     4 July 2022 at 8:10 pm

                     It’s been a truism among anthropologists and biologically-oriented psychologists for decades that all human societies face two primary tasks: regulation of female reproduction (so the babies don’t die, you see) and male aggression (so that everyone doesn’t die). The social enforcement of monogamy happens to be an effective means of addressing both issues, as most societies have come to realize (pair-bonded marriages constituting, as they do, a human universal (see the list of human universals here, derived from Donald Brown’s book by that name).

                     https://www.jordanbpeterson.com/media/on-the-new-york-times-and-enforced-monogamy/

                     I didn't read it all.
                   • joe90 …

                     4 July 2022 at 8:17 pm

                     I didn't read it all.

                     The Peterson word salad generator saves you the bother…

                     http://www.wisdomofpeterson.com/
                   • Puckish Rogue …

                     4 July 2022 at 8:17 pm

                     Muttonturd suggests that De Peterson is advocating for Forced monogamy, and outlawing transgenderism

                     In your post I see him describing social enforcement but nothing forced and theres nothing about 'outlawing transgenderism'

                     Is it unreasonable to ask Fartingbird to post some proof or evidence?

                     [I gave you a Mod note recently about needling Muttonbird: https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-24-06-2022/#comment-1896637.

                     Come back in the weekend. Next ban will be doubled – Incognito]
                   • Incognito []

                     4 July 2022 at 9:10 pm

                     Mod note
         • weka 6.2.1.1.3

           4 July 2022 at 8:13 pm

           The irony, for me anyway, is that the teachings of Jordan Peterson are far closer than gender affirming surgeons to Nazism.

           Forced monogamy, and outlawing transgenderism, etc. These two things alone strongly reflect what Nazis were all about. Extreme social control by and for a selected majority.

           I'd put them on a par myself (TRAs and JP).

           Some of the worst misogyny I've ever seen comes from TRAs. https://terfisaslur.com/
           • weka 6.2.1.1.3.1

             4 July 2022 at 8:15 pm

             Note the baseball bat imagery. Here too. It's a symbol of targeted harassment against gc feminists. This is overt and sanctioned by the left.

             https://twitter.com/GC_Vermontah/status/1542511562799296513
             • Puckish Rogue …

               4 July 2022 at 8:23 pm

               The imagery reminds me of something…can't think what though

               On an unrelated subject I was watching Caberat the other day, good songs.

               This ones a doozy:
             • arkie …

               4 July 2022 at 8:26 pm

               June is chosen for Pride to commemorate the Stonewall riots, two nights of violence. Neoliberalism has us forgetting the radical origins of the gay rights movement. Violence doesn’t equate to fascism.

               https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots
               • weka …

                 4 July 2022 at 8:33 pm

                 sorry, did you just justify male violence against women?
                 • arkie …

                   4 July 2022 at 9:12 pm

                   Not at all. Merely pointing out the origins of the gay rights movement; it started with a riot; so the use of the symbolism of baseball bats isn’t necessarily a new thing, or something pride ‘morphed’ into.

                   I was also responding to Puckish’s contribution above in the edit window.
             • Cinder …

               4 July 2022 at 9:03 pm

               Alternately, in the real world, not the one inhabited by the Genital Checkers and their selective imagination, they are carrying baseball bats because it's NYC and all the major sports codes are participating..

               "On Sunday, Major League Baseball celebrated LGBTQ Pride by sponsoring a float in the New York march"

               https://www.outsports.com/2018/6/24/17500176/new-york-lgbt-pride-mlb-nba-nfl-nhl-wnba

               "The New York City Pride March on June 24 will feature the largest collection of professional sports leagues ever for an LGBTQ Pride March or Parade."

               https://www.outsports.com/2018/6/1/17389274/nyc-pride-march-nfl-nba-nhl-mlb-wnba-lgbtq-athletes

               Honestly – I'm starting to think that if you lot saw the All Blacks marching in Pride with rugby balls all you would see are testicles.
               • Maurice …

                 4 July 2022 at 9:16 pm

                 Perhaps Rugby balls look like eggs?
               • weka …

                 5 July 2022 at 10:37 am

                 You're the one talking about genitals mate, and tbh, it's kind of creepy.

                 Let me make myself clear: if you want to run political arguments that GC people are focused on genitals, you have to make an actual argument. If you want to slur and smear GC people, myself included, by making out that we are obsessed with genitals, then I will moderate you.

                 See the difference? I don't have time to look at your commenting history on this topic, but next time I see you doing this kind of bullshit I will look at that and take that into account in moderating. Because I suspect this is a pattern of behaviour.

                 As for the Degenderettes, it's entirely possible they are riffing off NYC baseball culture. But their core kaupapa includes violence against women.

                 https://twitter.com/sarahstuartxx/status/989033241029021697
                 • weka …

                   5 July 2022 at 10:39 am

                   also from the exhibition in the SF library,

                   https://twitter.com/ReasetButton/status/1333901148781211656
                 • weka …

                   5 July 2022 at 10:42 am

                   
                   • DavidJ …

                     5 July 2022 at 1:11 pm

                     Is this the new face of tolerance?
                   • weka []

                     5 July 2022 at 2:39 pm

                     New misogyny same as the old misogyny.
                 • weka …

                   5 July 2022 at 7:29 pm

                   
                   • weka …

                     5 July 2022 at 7:42 pm

                     I'm starting to regret reporting all the violent imagery targeting GC women on twitter. There used to be a lot, very common, images of guns knives, bats, saying stfu terfs. In the end British MPs pulled twitter into parliament and asked them what the fuck they were doing allowing this, and after that twitter took the reporting seriously and removed tweets and accounts. So it's not as easy to find the images now.

                     There is a lot of evidence on https://terfisaslur.com/ But I already linked to that before your comment Cinder. Did you look? Willful ignorance, or you just don't care.

                     What then happens is things like this,

                     https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1543001990942318594

                     Which of course isn't new. That's standard fare for high profile women in gaming for instance, getting doxxed, having to leave their homes. Only then it was condemned by the left. Now the violence against women is celebrated as art, or Pride, or glossed over as just a sports thing. I don't think I've ever seen a left wing male trans ally condemn this violence in a meaningful way.

                     Just laying all the cards on the table so we can see what is going on.
                   • Cinder …

                     5 July 2022 at 11:05 pm

                     Hey Babe (I can be patronising too) – calling me "Mate" makes it the second time you have breached my anonymity here. Cool….

                     To start with – NYC is the cultural home of baseball. I don't follow baseball but even I know that. Its called Occam's Razor – you know, the thing doctors use to mutilate trans children (Yes I am mocking you)

                     YOU reposted something which amounted to a group attack stating that the people marching were engaging in targeted harassment without any evidence to support it.

                     So you made a slur against a group without a shred of evidence – you started it, deal with it.

                     But seeing as how you want to play your little games, lets go.

                     This is the logical conclusion of what the GC's want – digital examination of childrens genitals. Thus, Genital Checkers.

                     https://www.reuters.com/world/us/ohio-lawmakers-advance-trans-sports-ban-with-genital-check-2022-06-03/

                     I haven't heard you speak up against it AT ALL – Therefore, using your "Logic" you must support it.

                     On Twitter, Ani "Superbrain" O'Brien said it was [deleted – can't link to that of course because she was getting sick of the constant mockery of her gigantic brain and blocked me and a lot of other people who know bullshit when we see it.

                     Baseball bats – I looked at the Degenderettes Facebook page. They are not dissimilar to the Black Panthers. This "violence" you talk about is actually self defence classes for the LGBT community and sex workers. You're imagining things again.

                     New York is a far cry from pitsville South Island or wherever it is that you're plaguing, violence is common, especially against the trans community and sex workers. I support their right to defend themselves, be that verbally or physically.

                     The look exactly like the sort of punk & anarchist groups I have associated with my entire life – Maybe you have lived a nice little quiet life, good for you, but others don't take shit laying down.

                     JK Rowling – Got any evidence that the threat was sent by a trans person or a pro-trans individual? A picture on the internet – a Twitter account, thats hardly evidence. Look at stupid up there with her "35,00 detransitioners on Reddit" claim – might as well wear a shirt saying "I don't know how the internet works, but I believe everything I read on it"

                     The threat against Rowling could have been a Russian or Ukrainian based in the UK after she was duped by a Russian radio station. (Being duped seems to be a common thread with the Gender Critical crowd).

                     I think this quote from her sums it up best "It might be good for me to do something with that myself on social media because I think that will get into the newspapers"

                     https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/general-news/j-k-rowling-volodymyr-zelensky-zoom-prank-1235170917/

                     Meanwhile, other GC "thought leaders" are using the language of eugenics while calling for the elimination of Trans people – Where is your condemnation of that?

                     https://twitter.com/chimenesuleyman/status/1532841418972078085

                     The Buffalo mass shooter had a piece on his manifesto identifying trans people as suffering from a mental illness.

                     Which links nicely with the anti-semitism expressed by some of the GC "thought leaders" in their books and articles – The same shit about "Rich people pulling the strings" and "Big Pharma" which I have seen parroted here by the likes of Sabine and others.

                     https://www.voxpol.eu/transphobia-in-the-buffalo-shooters-manifesto/

                     Going to speak up about that? No? – Then employing your "Logic" once again, you must condone it.

                     Going to speak up about the growing links between QAnon, the far right and the GC movement?

                     https://www.voxpol.eu/transphobia-in-the-buffalo-shooters-manifesto/

                     Here on The Standard, calling trans people perverts, paedophiles, mentally ill etc… is a weekly if not daily event. Lots of arseholes playing armchair psychologist or medical expert. It's fucking disgusting and is stochastic terrorism.

                     So lets see YOU condemn the things that YOU walk amongst and can control – The comments on The Standard.

                     Then, maybe, you would be worth taking seriously.

                     As it is, I’ll be surprised if you let this through
                   • weka []

                     6 July 2022 at 12:04 am

                     “As it is, I’ll be surprised if you let this through”

                     Only because you seem to stupid or ideologically blind to bother figuring out how things here work. This sentence tells me so much about your ability to miss what is right in front of you.

                     Speaking of which,

                     To start with – NYC is the cultural home of baseball. I don’t follow baseball but even I know that. Its called Occam’s Razor – you know, the thing doctors use to mutilate trans children (Yes I am mocking you)

                     YOU reposted something which amounted to a group attack stating that the people marching were engaging in targeted harassment without any evidence to support it.

                     So you made a slur against a group without a shred of evidence – you started it, deal with it.

                     I posted a tweet, without a lot of explanation. You responded by saying no, it’s really about baseball (and queer baseball). To which I said, yes, but it’s also about misogyny and here are the receipts. Which you have completely ignored.

                     This is the logical conclusion of what the GC’s want – digital examination of childrens genitals. Thus, Genital Checkers.

                     https://www.reuters.com/world/us/ohio-lawmakers-advance-trans-sports-ban-with-genital-check-2022-06-03/

                     I haven’t heard you speak up against it AT ALL – Therefore, using your “Logic” you must support it.

                     1. Those aren’t gender critical people, they’re gender enforcers. You apparently can’t tell the difference, which is why you lump everyone into the same convenient political box. It’s hardly a credible argument though. The fundamentalist, conservative right want gender roles enforced, which is why they are moving against liberal values and laws around sexual orientation, gender non-conformity, transness and queer culture. Gender critical feminists generally want to abolish gender roles (and often gender itself), and actively promote gender non-conformity. I’ve not seen GCFs talk about the need for genital checks.
                     2. the rational argument wasn’t that any person had to speak out against all abhorrent things, it was that a group of people who are seen as, and who self perceive as, progressive, have sanctioned online violence against feminists. ie “I don’t think I’ve ever seen a left wing male trans ally condemn this violence in a meaningful way” This is significant, because it’s not hard to find TA left wing men speaking out against male violence against women. Just not the ones whose politics they oppose. The silence has been deafening and instructional.

                     I deleted the quote you attribute to Ani O’Brien, because without a link it’s impossible to know if you are telling the truth or manipulating her words and history, or even if it’s a correct quote (I searched twitter and couldn’t find it) what the context is and thus what your point is. Read the Policy if you want to know how claims of fact are treated here. You also need to think about defamation and putting the site at legal risk.
                   • weka []

                     6 July 2022 at 12:20 am

                     Baseball bats – I looked at the Degenderettes Facebook page. They are not dissimilar to the Black Panthers. This “violence” you talk about is actually self defence classes for the LGBT community and sex workers. You’re imagining things again.

                     No, I’m not. They put on an art exhibition at a public library that included imagery of violence against women of a kind that is common in trans activism online. That they also do self defense classes, live in a place and are radical anarchists doesn’t meant they can’t also be misogynists. This is really not a hard concept to understand. Both/and.

                     New York is a far cry from pitsville South Island or wherever it is that you’re plaguing, violence is common, especially against the trans community and sex workers. I support their right to defend themselves, be that verbally or physically.

                     One of the threads in trans activism and gender identity ideology is that it is GC women who cause violence against trans people. Rather than focusing on the people that do the actual violence (men), the focus is on women whose politics conflict with TAs. This is bog standard sexism (blame women), but it’s also an odd and pernicious dynamic, because of the amount of violence done by men who identify as women (whether trans or otherwise). When women speak about this, they get verbally attacked further. It’s a neat little circle. Many women who spend time looking at the issues come to understand this and won’t put up with the bullshit. Which is why GCF is growing in places like the UK and is being led by women with long histories of work against MVAWG.

                     So sure, trans people and other non-conforming people do get singled out and targeted for violence, and they have the right to defend themselves. But that doesn’t explain why women are being targeted by the Degenderettes.
                   • weka []

                     6 July 2022 at 12:30 am

                     JK Rowling – Got any evidence that the threat was sent by a trans person or a pro-trans individual? A picture on the internet – a Twitter account, thats hardly evidence.

                     There are more than two sides in war, and malicious third party actors are part of the territory. But JKR gets targeted by known trans activists, so the point stands. The TA left has ignored rising violence against women online and this is where we are at now. For instance, it took women MPs in the UK calling twitter into parliament to account for twitter’s tolerance of violence against women for twitter to change its policy and start moderating better. We all know that if men had also been objecting that the issue would have been resolved sooner, because that’s how sexism in society works. In that sense it’s a useful political weapon, TA left wing men’s silence.

                     Look at stupid up there with her “35,00 detransitioners on Reddit” claim – might as well wear a shirt saying “I don’t know how the internet works, but I believe everything I read on it”

                     Link or it didn’t happen (and read the site Policy again).
                   • weka []

                     6 July 2022 at 12:50 am

                     Meanwhile, other GC “thought leaders” are using the language of eugenics while calling for the elimination of Trans people – Where is your condemnation of that?

                     This whole section of your comment bears unpacking.

                     The Helens didn’t call for the elimination of trans people (as in eugenics or genocide). What Joyce was talking about was the society needing to limit the number of people that would need life long medical (and I think psychological) support after surgical and hormonal transition. She also points to the problems for people dissociated from their sexed body if society reasserts the important of biological sex and she specifically says that all those people will need support and accommodations. When she says the fewer of those people the better she’s not saying get rid of them, she’s saying let’s prevent that suffering from arising.

                     TA promotes the idea that surgery and hormones are safe. GC people say that many people are damaged by them. The truth probably lies in between, but until the damage can be looked at there is no way to know. This is a key aspect of what is happening in the UK because of the very large increase in young women presenting with gender dysphoria and being socially tracked towards medical and surgical transition that they later regret. Those young women by definition are considered by society to have a mental illness (which is how they get into a GD clinic).

                     TA has long tried to marginalise and suppress discussion of this. That’s what the two Helens were trying to do, talk about the damage of surgical/medical transition. I think their language was cavalier and damaging to both their own arguments and to trans people. But they weren’t advocating eugenics or elimination and it’s basically a nonsense to say they were.

                     The Buffalo mass shooter had a piece on his manifesto identifying trans people as suffering from a mental illness.

                     Just going to drop this here. I think it’s self evident, but apparently needs spelling out

                     https://kathleenstock.substack.com/p/on-guilt-by-association

                     But if you have a problem with transness being framed as a mental illness, I suggest you take that up with the societal gatekeepers who believe that gender dysphoria is the basis of transness. And that then opens a whole, very interesting conversation about what transness is especially if it’s not predicated on dysphoria.

                     Which links nicely with the anti-semitism expressed by some of the GC “thought leaders” in their books and articles – The same shit about “Rich people pulling the strings” and “Big Pharma” which I have seen parroted here by the likes of Sabine and others.

                     Not seeing the link myself, but if you want to argue those points, make an actual argument.

                     Going to speak up about the growing links between QAnon, the far right and the GC movement?

                     Again, if you want to make those arguments make them. No, I’m not going to read a link to try and parse what your argument is.
                   • weka []

                     6 July 2022 at 1:04 am

                     Here on The Standard, calling trans people perverts, paedophiles, mentally ill etc… is a weekly if not daily event. Lots of arseholes playing armchair psychologist or medical expert. It’s fucking disgusting and is stochastic terrorism.

                     So lets see YOU condemn the things that YOU walk amongst and can control – The comments on The Standard.

                     I had a quick search of TS for the words pervert and dress and the only comments related to trans people was yours and my reply to you. I did note at the time,

                     Well, I did stand up for the trans-woman Joanne before she grew sick of being referred to as a “pervert in a dress” and being told to “apologise for what she had done” and asked that a moderator intervene. That good enough for you?

                     I think you making shit up, or at least distorting what happened. But from what I can tell this is your MO. Instead of pointing to the evidence, you just throw out lazy specious arguments.

                     And sure, if you don’t care if people respect you or not, I can see why you wouldn’t respect TS.

                     https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-31-12-2021/#comment-1848353

                     Then, maybe, you would be worth taking seriously.

                     I don’t actually care if you take me or the site seriously. I do however care that you respect the house rules and kaupapa if you want to keep commenting.

                     What’s happened here today is that you’ve entered into the debate, and brought in a perspective (the NY baseball thing), but mostly you’ve relied on slurs and assertions of fact without evidence. Your claims from perverts to stochastic terrorism are just words until you can link to specific examples.

                     What’s also happened is that when I pointed out both the misogyny in trans activism, and the failures of TS left wing men, you’ve doubled down with the slurs and the assertions of fact without evidence and largely ignored the arguments being made that are backed up by evidence. That stands for itself.
               • I Feel Love …

                 5 July 2022 at 11:55 am

                 Thanks Cinder, precisely!
             • felix …

               5 July 2022 at 7:22 pm

               The baseball bats are deliberately both violent and phallic in their symbolism. Charming.
         • RedLogix 6.2.1.1.4

           5 July 2022 at 7:52 am

           Forced monogamy,

           Hah – you fell for that furphy.
           • Muttonbird 6.2.1.1.4.1

             5 July 2022 at 8:49 am

             It's not a rumour if he said it. I don’t care what his subsequent back down was.
             • RedLogix …

               5 July 2022 at 9:26 am

               Nah. You fell for it and don't have the guts to admit it.
               • Muttonbird …

                 5 July 2022 at 9:41 am

                 You have been captured by a mentally-ill, hateful charlatan. However, it is consistent with your penchant for other whacky and dangerous ideas.
                 • RedLogix …

                   5 July 2022 at 10:00 am

                   Evasion.

                   You fell for an obvious and very stupid lie that you wanted to believe. Own up.
                   • Muttonbird …

                     5 July 2022 at 10:04 am

                     What was the "obvious and very stupid lie"? Did Die Peterson not espouse enforced monogamy as a solution to a young man driving into a crowd?
                   • RedLogix []

                     5 July 2022 at 10:18 am

                     Keep digging.

                     I have given a clear reference, you have nothing but malevolent stupidity.
                   • Muttonbird …

                     5 July 2022 at 10:43 am

                     Of course, you are using the defence well worn by his followers that by enforced monogamy he didn't mean that kind of enforced monogamy.

                     Relax, Jordan…never for a second did I think that you were calling for “arbitrary dealing out of damsels to incels,” as Peterson claimed that some critics had concluded. But what the ever-coy Peterson doesn’t say is how exactly Canadian society doesn’t already “enforce monogamy” by that definition, or what he would like to see change to prevent men from becoming homicidally “angry with God.”

                     …

                     Write about Peterson, as I have done, and one will be quickly and angrily accused of not having watched all his videos. I assure you, I’ve watched so many of those videos my YouTube recommendations are forever sullied. If there is one thing I have learned from Peterson, it’s that Incognito mode is your friend. Question Peterson and you will also be told his IQ, over and over, about which I can only say, if you are a public person and I know your IQ, you are a moron.

                     – Tabitha Southey

                     https://www.macleans.ca/opinion/the-context-of-jordan-petersons-thoughts-on-enforced-monogamy/
                   • RedLogix []

                     5 July 2022 at 10:54 am

                     Lol. I don't care about you backing down now.🤣
                 • Anker …

                   5 July 2022 at 10:10 am

                   You only have to read accounts of gender “affirming” surgery and it side effects to have some questions about it. We have 35,000 de transitioners on Redit. These are people who bitterly regret the irreversible damage transitioning has caused them.

                   Any evidence that Jordan Peterson is a charlatan? He is a registered psychologist and I have not heard of any mal practice suits against him. Do feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

                   you see you are doing what Peterson himsel did I e labelling him
                   • Stuart Munro …

                     5 July 2022 at 9:08 pm

                     Peterson has made a few errors – chiefly of commenting beyond his expertise. But as a critic of some of the profoundly dubious narratives that somehow seem to to have been approved in flaky academic circles, he's pretty healthy.

                     His book isn't bad – but the videos always leave me humming Ziggy Stardust: when the kids had killed the man I had to break up the band…

                     One can be an academic, or a celebrity, but not both. Same goes for journalists.
7. In Vino 7

   4 July 2022 at 10:41 pm

   Sobering.. I've seen lots of people kick them quite hard.

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