Stupid myths on immigrant construction workers

31 comments on “Stupid myths on immigrant construction workers ”

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1. ianmac 1

   8 September 2017 at 9:26 am

   Jacinda says that they would target immigrant builders to carry out the build. I think she said that about 5,000 would be necessary as well as using our own NZers. From the figures above we imported only about 800 last year. Sounds good to me. Roll on Jacinda!
2. popexplosion 2

   8 September 2017 at 9:48 am

   Migrants need homes, take up work or leave, so spend money in the economy. So I’m perplexed why did a US Senator claim migrant were taking jobs? Are republicans just stupid on economics? Is this why Key cut apprentices numbers and wouldn’t reinstate them after the chch earthquake… …seems stupid is catching amongst conservative types.
   • dukeofurl 2.1

     8 September 2017 at 11:19 am

     The migrants in the US situation were those there illegally who take low paying jobs where no questions were asked.
     The US also allows visas for higher computer skills but again they are paid less than the US workers who were doing the same job until the work was outsourced to a company with the business model of using imported workers on visas.
     • popexplosion 2.1.1

       8 September 2017 at 11:44 am

       Yet those underpaid serfs are still spending, paying rent, taxes, etc. The point being freeing up US tech workers to startup companies… …the essential stupidity is seeing migrants as net drags. Only lazy people think that migrants are taking their jobs, since opportunity knocks, even more so if they are underpaid since it lowers costs. So why are you sipping on the poor management memes of the right, they are incompetents when it comes to economics. Has the gfs not taught you anything.
       • dukeofurl 2.1.1.1

         8 September 2017 at 2:54 pm

         ” The point being freeing up US tech workers to startup companies..”

         These are lower to mid level tech jobs who have been there for a while… the startups are bringing higher skilled people as well..because they are cheaper.

         So how is paying a migrant less than a US worker helping the economy. Those Us workers let go from good jobs are forced to take up lower skilled jobs or do the gig economy with insurance or holiday pay or promotions

         No one is saying slam the door shut, its just going back to the more sustainable levels of a few years back. Migrants are far more likely to sponsor other migrants, who dont have much in the way of skills we need.
         I have worked with some recent migrants who seemed to be very aware of ‘retirement housing’ that they mistakenly though was government provided, they were thinking about when they bought their parents to NZ.

         You have this baffling idea that the ‘economy’ is a person. It doesnt help the working population that the overall wage growth and opportunities for people born here are reduced. Any way the growth is illusory as per capita its non existent- NZ especially has exactly that situation.

         We cant kick out citizens but we can reduce inflow of non residents.
         • popexplosion 2.1.1.1.1

           9 September 2017 at 10:59 am

           CS skills are in high demand it does not follow the migrant has forced the displaced US employee into a lower paying job, and still so what,
           I. the US culture accepts this risk, I.e it’s unamerician, its how the US becomes the superpower that lowers prices to its people,
           ii. Migrant would be working outside the US in tech, so may still displace worker, drive down USwages, harms buying power of said US worker,

           NZ grows with migrants, it’s one of the stories of incompetence of National.
           They grew dairy but did not consider or care about runoff.
           They grew immigration, dotcom, students, etc but did nothing about housing but whine about RMA and slap themselves about filling stadiums.
           They grew tourism yet shit abounds, alongside over stretched infrastructure.
           Kids displaced to garages, cars, or left in mold homes.

           The right have no idea how to run a economy efficiently.
3. marty mars 3

   8 September 2017 at 9:52 am

   Good post – sunlight and facts to clear the gnat shitcloud away. Good that kiwis are into construction – we will need that expertise to move the airports and roads as the sea rises and storms become bigger and more frequent.

   Also I remember bill whatisname in the debate saying, “who will pick the kiwifruit?” as if the numbnut can’t remember who used to do it – ffs pay decent money and people will pick the fucken fruit – I’ve done it and my mates have.
   • simonm 3.1

     8 September 2017 at 7:42 pm

     Another important question is: Who owns the kiwifruit trade in NZ and are they secretly funding the National Party like they did in 2005?

     http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11883740
4. Stuart Munro 4

   8 September 2017 at 10:11 am

   The thing about skilled construction workers – carpenters, plumbers and electricians – is that they would be accustomed to different standards and also in demand in their own communities. The employer demand is for un or semi-skilled workers who can be paid as unskilled. Same is true for dairy.

   The basic premise to which we need to return is that employers cannot access unskilled foreign workers, no matter what prodigies of dishonesty they perform.

   The use of contracts to avoid NZ minimums should also be looked at – I’d suggest that any foreign contract active in NZ that goes over three months should come under NZ employment law. And that so-called individual contracts can be defaulted back to minimum wages in the event that they did not exceed them.
   • Pat 4.1

     8 September 2017 at 10:22 am

     Theres an element of truth in what you say (esp. re unskilled demand) however there are holes being filled by overseas trained sub trades, carpenters fitter/welders up to draughtsmen, project managers and engineers etc……though theres plenty of examples of bogus quals and exploitation.
     The construction required in the immediate future is however going to require a sensible, well designed and enforced immigration element…alongside a public training initiative….which National have ignored for 9 years….imagine how many more capable tradesmen/technicians would be available now if they had started in 2010 (as they were advised)
     • Stuart Munro 4.1.1

       8 September 2017 at 10:33 am

       Well pardon my cynicism – but having watched the fishing industry deskilled by the use of migrants, and seeing the same thing happen to dairy and the trades – this is not a slippery slope the left should be going down.

       People can learn pretty quickly if it gets them a pay step – if semi-skilled is what’s needed then we can easily produce that in two years on the job.

       Reaching for immigration as the first or preferred solution should be right off the table until all the rorts have been wound up.
     • David Mac 4.1.2

       8 September 2017 at 11:12 am

       I agree Stuart and Pat, our planning for 5 -10 years down the track has been poor. I guess survival prompts governments to work with 3 year bite-size pieces.

       A building boom will create jobs far beyond those doing the building. White goods need selling, delivering, installing and servicing, builder’s utes need oil changes, nurseries will plant more seedlings.

       Current immigration does seem more and more like a solution to a problem we shouldn’t have for the want of a bit of forward planning. The kneejerk method of taking care of our country’s needs.
   • Cricklewood 4.2

     8 September 2017 at 5:48 pm

     The big problem is actually sits around skilled experienced tradesmen specifically those with experience with NZ techniques and materials.

     There simply are not enough on the ground as there was a massive training gap as a result of the employment contracts act, outsourcing council contracts etc. Essentially apprenticeships dramaticlly reduced in number and we are now seeing the consequences and we are playing catch up.

     The other big issue sits around cost of living in Auckland, any good tradesman is far better off financially to live in the regions. I personally have 5 friends who have left in the last 2 years purely due to cost of living and fact of the matter is they are way better off in real terms given they can buy a house, dont have to sit in traffic etc.

     I dont see how you can attract the volume of tradesman to Auckland in the current enviroment and the industry is dangerously over leveraged as small companies have taken on large contracts beyond their ability to cash flow. Its not pretty out there.
5. savenz 5

   8 September 2017 at 10:40 am

   The housing crisis has been manufactured from the demand side. For every so called construction worker there seems to be 90% of other migrants who are adding to the demand for housing! It’s a ponzi scheme through and through.

   Not only that the government figures apparently underestimate by about 30% at least the amount of new people living here. In the usual screw up, the immigration figures are based on what overseas people announce on their arrival cards – no one seems to be tracking actually what people are doing here once they get here.

   So many overseas people are not working either, they are having children, being educated here, retired or just don’t need to work. NZ is some sort of Ponzi scheme of lifestyle for the more affluent migrants who actually use facilities here and the working age ones go off and work overseas where the jobs and money is better.

   There seems to be an argument by the pro migrant lobby that NZ is so underpopulated that we could easily add millions more people in, no problem just get the locals to pay for more infrastructure to keep it all going, they cite the UK for example, “England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland make up an area of 242,000 square kilometres – ten percent smaller than NZ – yet they manage to fit 63 million people”. ( funny enough never China or India as population density examples, because nobody want to migrate there, and increasingly not the UK either, apparently the UK Indians are a new sector of people trying to migrate to NZ).

   Population density arguments seems to ignore than we live in a planet inhabited by other creatures and living things in an ecosystem that humans also depend on for survival. How many creature still live in the UK, what is the water and air quality like? Is the Thames swimmable, wadable or pristine? What about housing, Grenfell disaster does not seem to feature as an example of a haven of economic and social bliss that high population density arguers describe.

   Are we going to repopulate the Amazon, the Arctic, Africa and Antartica too and destroy their countries biodiversity to that over populated countries can migrate more people there and have more stores and sell more cornflakes in more places of the world?

   What happens to the local people who are ‘less competitive’ in this brave new world, none of this has been made clear? We are creating problems in this country not solving them.

   There has been a huge rise in world population figures as well as the pollution and climate change. There is zero provisioning for this in the NZ construction sector slowly turning out more houses and apartments without any provisioning for the future of this country not fit for purpose in a disaster ridden new world, large and energy inefficient for the most cases, less and less green spaces and with a lot more people to house, educate, medically treat, give disaster relief and give super too.

   Many of the new taxes being proposed discriminate more against locals than those recent migrants with options. Land taxes, capital gains taxes and congestion charges will all hit local workers on local (aka low incomes) more than those who are rich and have the ability to have other family members work offshore who probably already pay little to zero taxes here.

   This is not against migrants many of whom have made NZ a better place, but more a warning that there are consequences to how NZ has gone about it’s Laissez-faire immigration for the last decade and creating future economic, social and environmental problems, which are being swept up under the carpet and minimised.
6. Pat 6

   8 September 2017 at 10:44 am

   lol…your cynicism would receive stiff competition from my own, however after 35 years in the trades (much of it in construction) i can safely say that the deskilling started long before immigration was ever an issue.
   Sadly due to the failings of the past 30 years, accentuated by the current governments incompetence (and the inherent reluctance of private industry to pay for training) we now find ourselves needing to both import labour WHILE training homegrown talents if we are to make any headway in solving this problem
   • David Mac 6.1

     8 September 2017 at 11:31 am

     The search for efficiency forces diminishing multi-skilling, we are becoming specialists, the playing field ever tilting towards specialisation. Not so long ago the same contractor dug and laid the drains, ran the internal pipes and put on the roof.

     I think we’ll see more of this. A worker can become a useful team player in a house framing gang or roofing crew much quicker than he/she would in a traditional apprenticeship setting.

     Mechanics used to do the lot, now we go to the air cond guy, brake guy or transmission guy. I don’t think this is necessarily a bad thing, when it comes to ramping up a mega build, it’s probably a good thing.
     • Pat 6.1.1

       8 September 2017 at 11:37 am

       its a great theory that frequently falls down in practice…..its almost an imposed tunnel vision akin to the silo mentality bemoaned of in bureaucracies (private and public)….the end result is diminished quality in the total product.
       • David Mac 6.1.1.1

         8 September 2017 at 11:52 am

         Please don’t trust the guy that does your wheel alignments to rebuild your trans Pat. I hear you, pre-drilled roofs, every hole aligning with fresh air etc. With a house, a good roof fit starts with the pouring of the footings.

         There are ways over the hurdles, factory built panels can be made to meet laser sighted accuracy. I think my car would be a less dependable vehicle if it had been built by 1 person rather than 5000.
         • Pat 6.1.1.1.1

           8 September 2017 at 12:12 pm

           your car wasn’t built by a person at all…and therein lies the issue….when buildings are constructed by robots your quality issues due to specialisation will likely disappear (or at least diminish)…in the meantime human interaction and flaws will continue to play a significant role.
           …and your wheel alignment /trans analogy simply reinforces my point….however Id trust a few old school mechanics i know to do both (and ahead of the so called specialists)….the issue in the autostrade is the capital outlay increasingly required for income streams that don’t support the specialist equipment required, not the training or ability of the human doing the work
           • mikes 6.1.1.1.1.1

             8 September 2017 at 9:03 pm

             I think wheel alignment is a bad example. Anyone can do a wheel alignment if they can learn to press a few buttons on a machine and bang the inside of a wheel with a hammer….hehehe
             • Pat …

               8 September 2017 at 9:11 pm

               that’ll explain why i always have to return mine for at least a second go
     • savenz 6.1.2

       8 September 2017 at 12:45 pm

       @David Mac, I see the increase of specialists as a bad thing.

       Just to put in a bathroom for example which in the old days used to involved a builder, plumber and electrician nowadays we have labourers, plumbers and electricians, underfloor specialists, cabinet specialists, tilers, stoppers, engineers, waterproofing specialists etc. All these people now require co ordination and can not necessary be at the job when needed. Any delays in any one of the sub contractors affects the time frames of the other contractors, more people are added, accounts people, project manager etc to manage the processes. All these different tradespeople are driving around the roads in their vans from one end of the city to the other increasing congestion. Most of their time is going in traffic!

       A bathroom might take 1 week under the old system of generalists when the builder did most of it, now can easily take 6 weeks and cost 6 x as much with all the inefficiency. Bizarrely the builder has to work harder than before and has more risk as he’s now at the mercy of so many other people on the job. This also increased the insurances, the builder has to get legal advice and keep assets in trusts for the most part in case they get sued. Many tradespeople would prefer a return to the old days as would the consumer. This is why construction costs so much and why nobody can get small jobs done cheaply anymore.

       There is also the idea that the factory manufacturing model can work in social services. Know of one person who works for children in the courts and under the government they have reorganised the family court system to “save money” using a bank like work flow. As the person says, what took 3 days to get urgent court orders now takes 10 days. It’s crazy. People who are fighting for their kids don’t act like they are in a bank and politely queue up, transact and leave – they are angry, emotional and often don’t behave in a rational manner. You can’t make someone withdrawing money the same process as someone who might be losing their kids, but that is how the government thinks everything should be done. The government and their lackeys have zero clue and zero practicality and they don’t save money. They just screw up people’s lives.
       • Mad Plumber 6.1.2.1

         8 September 2017 at 11:09 pm

         As someone who does more than the odd bathroom I do take issue with some of your comments
         In the old days the selection of fitting was pretty limited with the up market being those Royal blue, Chocolate and Almond Ivory Sanity fitting to name a few. No tiled showers and the odd heated floor.
         Today I am working on a Bathroom with taps obtained over the internet which as soon as I install them I am responsible for so hopefully the disclaimer from the owner will cover me. She also ordered some of the wrong bits.
         Tiled walls and floor that have to be waterproofed, not allowed to be walked on for a day then the time to tile ( on this job 2 bathrooms) Tiler already been 4 days and until he is finish I nor the Sparky can finish Oh and have now found out not enough tiles but still wants to more in next week.
         To do the above there is a builder,plumber,electrician,joiner and a plumber. Do not where you need an engineer.
         As to driving around and getting stuck in traffic, that is what you get for living in a city.
         On a more serious note obtaining staff and training is a more pressing concern and is not a problem that is going to be solved quickly. In the case of the two apprentices we have the biggest problem is keeping them at the block course as they get bored as the course has been dumb down so much.
         As an example the apprentices on one course were asked the make up of water and out of twenty or so only one could answer H2O , Bloody Hell.
         Lprent
         Gotten?
       • KJT 6.1.2.2

         10 September 2017 at 2:00 pm

         And. You still need the person with experience in all those jobs, to make sure that they all fit together and are done properly.

         The myth that an accountant can manage tradesmen, was exploded long ago.

         And. It is time that we also got over the myth that if you are thick, you become a tradesman. You don’t have to be academic. Something which is overrated, in the Anglo Saxon world, anyway.

         Successful tradespeople have a huge range of skills, from technical ability in their trade, technical knowledge, people skills, business skills, open minds, critical thinking and ability to adapt.

         Apprenticeships in the 70’s produced well rounded, skilled and competent people.

         The removal of apprenticeships has resulted in a huge training gap, which should be filled by training young people.

         Importing marginally qualified and, ignorant of NZ construction, immigrants is only done to keep pay down.
     • Stuart Munro 6.1.3

       8 September 2017 at 1:14 pm

       In fishing a major issue was that management did not possess the skills themselves, and readily fell into accountancy driven ideas of improvement. With the QMS, the fishermen were basically wiped out by the companies that had operated the markets – Sanford, Sealord, Independent. They tended to capitalize instead of upskilling, which did nothing for their ROI, and subsidize their inefficiency by increasing pressure on the resource or on lower level employees.

       Japan is the contrast to look at – they have a similar littoral fishable resource. But it returns 100x what NZ’s does, and employs a 100x as many people. Japanese people eat locally caught fish 4x a week or more. NZ people eat commercially caught fish roughly once a month. It’s a colonial industry, and it no longer belongs to us.
7. garibaldi 7

   8 September 2017 at 10:57 am

   Stuart, pat, savenz… excellent thread, but it is not cynicism ,it is the truth.
8. Once was Tim 8

   8 September 2017 at 2:05 pm

   The labour.org.nz site’s posting on immigration policy appears to have been updated swince I last visted there.
   However! what really peeved me off was the gnat’s (and others) wilful misrepresentation of what it was intended to achieve. Initially there were 3 tranches – the third of which never seemed to be discussed in our wonderful MSM or elsewhere. (Perhaps they should have re-ordered it so that those with an agenda designed to justify their fuckups and record to date, and to introduce a policy that would at least partially coincide with the Greens and even NZF alike).
   Even now, the panick-stricken Natzis are trying to ride on this wave of the bullshit they’ve created.
   When I first looked at the policy (as it was first described), it was bleeding obvious that where skill shortages genuinely existed AND by region, an immigrant contribution would be welcomed.
   So (as they preface everything these days in the cool world),
   BECAUSE this government has deliberated over students coming to NZ to study shitty courses (such as Business Management – the content of which was so facile they’d probably already surpassed their lecturer/tutor’s knowledge in the course material provided, by comparison with their already 3rd World education knowledge),

   and BECAUSE many were promised bullshit opportunities such as relevant work experience and an income such that they’d be able to pay back the substantial loans, mortgages and debt incurred to come to NZ and study some of these brilliant PTE-provided issues of enlightenment,

   and BECAUSE the ‘export education sector’ has become such an earner for the Natzis’ mates and is reliant on a constant supply of suckers, and even intelligent people who have a reasonable expectation that this ‘1st World, least corrupt’ nation was legit and would never rip the vulnerable off,

   and BECAUSE the agents and charlatans who’ve lied, cheated, clipped the ticket and made very nice little earns on the back of their ‘clients – going forward – all enabled by a government policy and oversight of its regulatory authorities these ‘bloody immigrants’ are now here “taking all our bloody jobs”.

   Jesus!, they’re like rats aren’t they? Low Value, Not Genuine!!! Just Economic migrants trying to take us for a ride and displace us. (/sarc)
   Rather than operating with the very same creds and beliefs as the NZ economic migrant who fucks off across the Tassie because the wages are higher, or to our ‘Mother Nation’, but WORSE! – who then expects that when the shit hits the fan, they can always come back and survive. (DOUBLE STANDARD MUCH?)
   And FFS! Billshit English is using all this (and that thing in leopardskin) as evidence of success.

   So… (once again),
   the past nine years where immigration inward
   – based on an industry of ticket clippers, bullshit artists acting as consultants
   (who MAY just have an interest in other little earns – such as a recruitment of labour supply company, or even a PTE which can so easily go out of business and abrogate its liabilities), and under-resourced gubbamint departments (where its employees can ‘engage’ with the above – and IF not that, then go out and set themselves up in a business as experts in immigration/employment/education)…..

   We ARE where we are.
   We have regions where BECAUSE of government policy, the EXPERTISE and EXPERIENCE of whatever is relevant to that region IS NOW IN THE HANDS of the non-NZer, and who has (more often than not) in real debt – the likes of what many credit card holding NZers cannot comprehend.

   So… (again, going forward, ez a metta o’ fek, ekshully, en furtha more ez en iksarm pull):
   In Christchurch there are now bloody foreigners who hold the IP and experience and expertise that NU Zullners could have had
   Elsewhere, there are bloody foreigners who hold the IP and experience and expertise to deal with dairying and the means by which toxic cowshit could be dealt with
   In the Bay of Plenty, there are bloody foreigners versed in all stages of the Kiwifruit industry, from grading, new varieties, grafting, pruning, recognition of symptoms of the PSA virus and how it should best be dealt with, the effects of previous non-expert work,
   etc….
   And all of these exploited individuals willing and able to pass on/educate/elucidate their expertise to what Natzis describe as stoners unwilling to work will likely be tipped out.

   As just about EVERY international student or foreign work visa holder I’ve ever encountered says …. it’s all about the money.

   Probably the most arrogant thing that’s happening is that the Natzi’s think no-one is noticing – they are and its a tik tok scenario.
   Its not just a 14 deported student sob story, or a dairy farmer doing his best to ensure his cows don’t shit in rivers, or a building contractor ….. or even a legitimate and ethical immigration consultant or public servant resisting politicisation and the ministerial whispers from above, or an employee of what we once referred to as a Qango.
9. Gristle 9

   9 September 2017 at 6:27 am

   The education and training industry who focus on overseas students are essentially selling NZ citizenship or residency. Would it not be better just to sell the residency and citizenship without the training etc.

   I am only pointing out that the current approach is economically inefficient as we could strip away all the cost and time associated with the training and processing. Visa, citizenship and permits need only take as long as it takes for funds to be transferred.

   Even Mr Theil shouldn’t have to wait the inordinate length of time he was required to wait and the 12 days he spent in country.
   • Pat 9.1

     9 September 2017 at 8:02 am

     Theil a bad example….he was a net loss to the country by 10s of millions…..as for direct sale , you would need to place an upper age limit on the purchaser to achieve the same ( and their target) demographic….and include a sleeping bag and tent in the price,.

     How about we elect a government with a semblance of a real economic plan?
10. JC 10

    10 September 2017 at 1:08 am

    Great Post!

    Sadly…. Haven’t we had NINE years to sort this …. Out!…

    “We need calm heads and experienced minds at the helm to manage New Zealand’s construction sector through this period. We need long-term thinkers, not knee-jerk reactions and political posturing” i.e.,

    http://www.constructionnews.co.nz/opinion/editorial-august-september-2017.

    ” …. demand for construction-related occupations is also projected to increase (by around 56,000 employees); occupations that are expected to experience the largest growth include plumbers, electricians and civil engineering professionals.”..

    (Whatever happened to apprenticeships.. ?)

    or …

    httmps://www.branz.co.nz/cs_show_download.php?id=084f756ba55c5cca2a6ddb2e1b30ee18406cb4b7

    Or compare this “Futuristic wank from the Past… ,(2009), from the dishonorable, “Mr Coleman”

    ” Our Skilled Migrant Marketing Programme uses a combination of search engine optimisation techniques and online advertising to target skilled migrants in the United States and the UK. To date it has built up a database of over 67,000 prospective migrants. They are serious registrants, eager to move here – 52% want to move within 12 months – and are available to fill positions in key skill shortage areas. Over 55% are tertiary qualified and their average age is 35. Over 50% have skills included in the Skill Shortage list and over 15,000 have been linked to prospective New Zealand employers already.” …. (sic)

    https://www.beehive.govt.nz/speech/economic-impact-immigration

    Oh.. and about the Cranes .. It’s All sorted!

    https://www.cranes.org.nz/news/national-construction-pipeline-report-2016
    • Draco T Bastard 10.1

      10 September 2017 at 3:10 am

      Whatever happened to apprenticeships.. ?

      They cost money and so it’s cheaper to import talent trained elsewhere and let our own people’s skills deteriorate – according to NZ ‘managers’.

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