A Constitution

31 comments on “A Constitution ”

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1. infused 1

   26 September 2016 at 11:33 am

   What’s wrong with a 4 year term? It’s good for all parties. Considering the last 6-12 months of a cycle is wasted getting ready for an election, it allows more to get done.
   • RedLogix 1.1

     26 September 2016 at 11:40 am

     Nothing wrong at all; just surprised at the boldness of the four year fixed term.
     • Puckish Rogue 1.1.1

       26 September 2016 at 12:43 pm

       Yeah that seems…interesting
     • Draco T Bastard 1.1.2

       26 September 2016 at 7:58 pm

       I keep thinking about this concept of a ‘fixed term’ government and the idea that a single party rules for that term with support for policies then being dynamic. If we take this to it’s logical conclusion we could get rid of the governing party and just have parliament rule.
       • You_Fool 1.1.2.1

         27 September 2016 at 10:46 am

         You would still need an executive to do the actual running of the place, ministers and such like. However, given that it was already proposed that the house elect the PM and the Speaker. that could be continued to the whole of the executive so that Ministers were not appointed by voted in – you could even raise the threshold from a majority to 60% or even 75% to make the shenanigans even more enjoyable and avoiding it just being the same as it is now.

         I have also wondered if you could have a system with an elected Head of State, who was head of the executive branch of government who chose his ministers and other executive officers from the elected parliament, but they lost their mp voting rights. Add an interesting dynamic, as you would pick the best suited, but also look to spread around the political parties so not to remove any one party’s influence.

         i.e. John Key is voted El Presidante, so Nat is now down 1 seat in parliament, so he won’t pick too many national mp’s to be ministers as that would further remove nationals seats and Labour would effectively be in control of the house, although the executive would be unlikely to sign off and enact any law they passed.
   • One Anonymous Bloke 1.2

     26 September 2016 at 1:09 pm

     The same argument applies to a three-year fixed term.
   • Pasupial 1.3

     26 September 2016 at 1:23 pm

     Paying attention to the electorate is “wasted” time in your book; infused? Parliamentarians could take shorter holidays (especially over summer) if there is really so much extra work to be done.

     The; fixed term, part of that recommendation seem difficult to square with the reality of MMP coalitions.

     However, I do like recommendation 6: “75% majority in Parliament should be required for
 urgency to be taken in passing law” & 11: “The House of Representatives will elect the Prime Minister”. 24-26 are good too.

     Despite any merit this scheme may have, there is going to have to be a lot of public consultation on this one to give it any mandate. If an outgoing coalition with a bare majority were to try ram through a new constitution in the last few months of their term, that would be problematic.
   • roy cartland 1.4

     26 September 2016 at 1:25 pm

     Totes – a three-year term really means a 6-year term at least, it’s not like any govo gets turfed out after one term these days. MMP will keep them playing nice – just look at the multi-headed monsters in the Danish Parliament (on “Borgen”, of course).
2. Ad 2

   26 September 2016 at 11:49 am

   Really interesting thanks Red.

   A good interview yesterday with the authors on RNZ.

   Won’t try discussion until this evening when I have time.
3. NZJon 3

   26 September 2016 at 12:54 pm

   Looking forward to hearing Geoffrey Palmer speaking this coming Friday… 🙂
4. One Anonymous Bloke 4

   26 September 2016 at 1:36 pm

   I’d like to see a better understanding of conflict of interest, especially in regard to bringing preconceived notions into select committees. At the moment there are far too many nodding dogs.
5. dukeofurl 5

   26 September 2016 at 2:01 pm

   Its not a constitution, its a wish list

   ” A revised approach to, and more transparent oversight of, the intelligence agencies.”
   How?

   ” Constitutional protection for local government.” Its impossible to do in a paragraph or two.

   The House of Representatives will elect the Prime Minister. And that changes what ?

   Select committees should be able to make new legislative
 proposals to the House of Representatives. Thats number 5 ! A pointless exercise.
   What about the the Minister of Finances veto- so much for parliament is supreme, they cant even overide the minister.

   and silliest of all-
   Including certain principles in the Constitution to reinvigorate the public service and protect its values.
   Why cant they have a section on herding cats
   • RedLogix 5.1

     26 September 2016 at 2:31 pm

     Full text here:

     http://constitutionaotearoa.org.nz/proposed-constitution-full-text/
6. red-blooded 6

   26 September 2016 at 2:30 pm

   We can always count of Geoffrey Palmer for thoughtful and thought-provoking proposals. Looks pretty good to me, although I’d need longer to fully digest it all.

   I think the fixed term idea is interesting, but would take quite a shift in attitude and practice. Presumably a government that lost its majority because it lost one of its supporting parties could be challenged by a new coalition that could commend a majority; the other possibility being minority government and negotiations about each piece of legislation. There’s something quite appealing about this concept.

   I also like the idea of recognising the role of local government and thinking through its relationship with central government. Under this arrangement, it would presumably be harder for central government to move in and take over, as they have in Canterbury.
   • AmaKiwi 6.1

     26 September 2016 at 3:21 pm

     red-blooded

     Yes.

     “Under this arrangement, it would presumably be harder for central government to move in and take over, as they have in Canterbury.”

     . . . as they do whenever they damn well please. Auckland Super City. Nick Smith on Auckland district plan. Roads, public transport. Local conservation issues.
   • Bill 6.2

     26 September 2016 at 4:16 pm

     Did a post on Fixed Terms in May of last year. It might interest you.

     https://thestandard.org.nz/fixed-term-parliaments/
     • RedLogix 6.2.1

       26 September 2016 at 4:35 pm

       I must admit I missed that post Bill. I like the idea a lot as it solves several of the core problems inherent in Coalition govts.

       And hell if the Poms can manage it, what’s wrong with us?
       • dukeofurl 6.2.1.1

         26 September 2016 at 5:03 pm

         It solved nothing. The UK had a maximum term of 5 years, that became the minimum. When it was up the Lib Dems were creamed by the Tories as intended in the beginning.
         Would it have made any difference to the public if the election was held at 4 years? Of course not.
         As for the other falalava, those provisions more aptly applied in Scotland , Wales and Northern Ireland.
         The Tories tried to play the Welsh election results recently when it came to a PM getting the confidence motion from the Assembly first.
         Never underestimate the politics of any situation. Take MMP , its been the way it works herebut its gamed by National to avoid defeat.
         In Scotland absurdly, it led to SNP having a majority of seats recently despite not having a majority of the party vote. Their flaw was to have the list MPS from regions but bizarrely make all the regions the same number of electorates. The SNP saw the flaw and gamed it to their advanatge.
7. AmaKiwi 7

   26 September 2016 at 3:48 pm

   Geoffrey Palmer’s proposals require an often apathetic NZ public to really think about weighty issues. Will they?

   Palmer’s timing is good. Here and worldwide there is growing disgust with government related corruption. If we don’t make democratic changes now, public discontent can lead to the election of a NZ demagogue.

   Can’t happen here in sweet little NZ? Yeah, right. Can’t happen either in the American “cradle of liberty.”
8. Lanthanide 8

   26 September 2016 at 5:22 pm

   Key’s flag referendum would’ve been better spent on a constitution referendum.
   • Draco T Bastard 8.1

     26 September 2016 at 5:27 pm

     We certainly do need to discuss a written constitution and a shift to being a republic. What we can’t do is rush it nor leave it solely to the politicians.
9. Draco T Bastard 9

   26 September 2016 at 5:22 pm

   10, The Cabinet is limited to 20 members, with up to five other ministers outside Cabinet. The position of Under-Secretary will be abolished.

   I disagree with that as I happen to think that there should be one minister per ministry so that they can more easily keep their mind on the one job rather than being overwhelmed by excessive responsibilities.

   In fact, why do we even have a Cabinet?

   There’s no legal basis for it. It’s only there by convention and this government’s been running roughshod all over that convention.
10. Ad 10

    26 September 2016 at 8:08 pm

    A few random points.

    – With both the Head of State and the Speaker are voted on by Parliament, the two of them are going to become pretty close. The Speaker in a sense would work for the Head of State. I think that would be a useful innovation for checks and balances.

    – A 75% majority to get Urgency measures would require massive parliamentary discipline from the Government. I can’t see it working in MMP; too hard to whip general business and leave.

    – I can’t see the difference in reality between the whole of parliament electing the Prime Minister, and what we have now. The coalition majority agrees the Cabinet positions including the Prime Minister.

    – They mention the Bill of RIghts, but they forget to entrench them. I think they really need to be. Point 18 on new rights isn’t going to work. I’d rather see a focus on land ownership and national parks.

    – Points 25 and 26 on declaring war and sending troops are just ridiculously isolationist.

    – I’d like to see the Head of State manage the information ombudsman. As well as manage the Speaker. If we’re going to give them a refreshed constitutional role, let them do some actual work. The Head of State should also look after appeals against the Police and against the security services. Be the Big Stick.

    I like the attempt at stronger checks and balances.
    I like that they’ve really thought a lot through.
    I’m definitely going to get the book and read the whole thing.

    Good mental exercise there.
    • RedLogix 10.1

      26 September 2016 at 8:59 pm

      Same here Ad; it makes for some solid, interesting political homework instead of all the usual squabbling and noise. Definitely our current system needs a refresh.

      I’m interested also to see their approach on the ToW.
11. Incognito 11

    26 September 2016 at 10:55 pm

    27. Replace MMP with truly Proportional Representation and get rid of electorate boundaries altogether. With 120 seats in Parliament the electoral threshold should be 0.83% at the national level.

    Many excellent points raised by Sir Geoffrey Palmer that warrant further analysis and (public) debate.
    • Lanthanide 11.1

      27 September 2016 at 9:23 am

      So people won’t have a “local electorate MP” to go to any more?

      Local representation is deemed to be important. That’s why electorates exist.
      • Draco T Bastard 11.1.1

        27 September 2016 at 2:34 pm

        Interestingly enough, most list MPs adopt an electorate. We could formalise that.

        Have it so that all MPs are voted in on the list and then have them allocated an electorate.

        Of course, the big problem with having all list MPs is that we would lose the option of having independent electorate MPs. But, then, when was the last time we had an independent electorate MP that was actually voted in as an independent?
      • Incognito 11.1.2

        27 September 2016 at 10:29 pm

        Sure, local representation is important but not essential; many other countries do without.

        My thesis is that local representation my actually hinder representation of scattered ‘minorities’ and fringe groups, for example.

        I’ve never liked the hybrid MMP system and still don’t understand why it was modelled on the German system.
        • Draco T Bastard 11.1.2.1

          29 September 2016 at 12:51 pm

          Yes, I’ve been getting less and less enthusiastic about having electorate MPs. If someone needs to talk about local issues then they should be talking to their local councillors.

          If it’s big enough to be a national issue then they should be able to talk to any MP and the Minister who’s responsible.
          • Incognito 11.1.2.1.1

            29 September 2016 at 10:31 pm

            Agreed!
12. Draco T Bastard 12

    27 September 2016 at 2:27 pm

    Seems that there’s a website about NZ having a constitution:

    A Constitution for Aotearoa New Zealand
    

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