Anatomy of a lie

Written By: IrishBill - Date published: 8:51 pm, May 5th, 2011 - 158 comments
Categories: Politics - Tags: hone harawira, matthew hooton, trevor mallard

When the news of Hone Harawira’s “support for Osama Bin Laden” broke in the Herald I was suspicious of it – there was no byline on the story and it wasn’t on the front page. Surely such a revelation would be headline news and surely the journo that covered it would want to claim such a cracker story as their own. And why did it take two days between Hone saying it and the Herald picking it up. The whole thing had a sense of a cautious editorial decision.

My gut feeling was there was context missing and that it had the feel of research unit work. Especially as Matthew Hooton has been touting a similar line about Annette Sykes (I asked him about the rumours he’s working for Brash – ~~so far he’s not denied it~~ [Matthew has confirmed he’s not working for Brash]).

Then I saw the video. My first impression was Hone was saying we shouldn’t be celebrating a man’s death in his usual roundabout way.

One of our commenters described it this way:

I just watched the clip http://tvnz.co.nz/te-karere/video [it’s about two thirds in] – it turns out the full quote was “they [bin laden’s family] mourn for a man who fought for the rights, the land and the freedom of his people”.

It seemed to me he was talking about the way Bin Laden’s family would have thought of Bin Laden.

Whatever was going on it was pretty clear that Hone wasn’t backing Bin Laden just as it was clear that the context of what he said had been altered with the removal of a single word: “they”.

That didn’t stop all of those with a vested interest in discrediting Hone (and some of those without one) from having a go including, to his discredit, Trevor Mallard over on red alert.

By the afternoon the story was whipped up into a frenzy. Which surprised me because it seemed patently clear from the video evidence that what people were claiming Hone meant he hadn’t meant at all. Several commenters here and on other blogs who actually watched the Te Karere video said as much.

I suppose that by then there was enough blood in the water that journos who should have known better felt obliged to report on the story with headlines that misrepresented what Hone said. After all, it fits the “loose cannon” narrative they’re all sold on and perhaps they convinced themselves that the perception was more important than the facts (and perhaps it is). Then when it was nice and juicy Key stepped in.

And now Hone has apologised for the way he said what he said. Not for saying he supported Bin laden (because he never did) but because the power of the lie was so great he probably felt he had to.

Unfortunately this will be represented as confirming the lie.

There’s a couple of lessons in this. One is for the Mana party who have learned the hard way how the echo chamber runs and how watchful they will have to be.

The other is for the journalists and the pundits: there will be a lot of this over the next seven months. If you buy into this dirty game like you have with Hone you will be doing yourselves and democracy a huge disservice.

I should note two more things: I’m not a great supporter of Hone, I like the left politics Mana espouses but I’ve had a bit to do with a few of the people in his team (as I’ve had a bit to do with a lot of political operators across the spectrum) and I’m not confident they have what it takes to put any weight into their vision. That they’ve let their guard down like this doesn’t change that.

I’m also disappointed in the opportunism show by Trevor Mallard in this matter. He’s the man running Labour’s campaign and for him to make the fundamental mistake of assuming his enemy’s enemy is his friend is amateur – the right wing echo chamber he threw in with on this will be used against Labour this year and today he helped make it a little more powerful.

In politics you’ve got to take your lumps because life isn’t fair but frankly the whole debacle has left a bad taste in my mouth.

158 comments on “Anatomy of a lie ”

Comments are now closed

Anthony 1

5 May 2011 at 9:00 pm

Even the way the herald and stuff reported the quotes underlined the lie…

Both papers placed his quotes out of chronological order to create a further perception of support for Bin Laden.
higherstandard 2

5 May 2011 at 9:03 pm

I still think the most bizarre things he’s said is the repeated assertions that Brash is like Hitler, he need to engage his brain before opening the mouth.

If he wrote and talked about more stuff like this

http://hone.co.nz/2011/04/20/an-anzac-story-for-all-new-zealanders/

he might attract less opprobrium.
- IrishBill 2.1
  
  5 May 2011 at 9:14 pm
  
  Agreed. I think he’s using the Hitler stuff to get coverage but it’s still not the smartest move.
deemac 3

5 May 2011 at 9:21 pm

“not the smartest move”?? it’s offensive! not to Brash of course (he can look after himself) but to Hitler’s victims. In the US or UK Hone would now be toast after that comment.
All in all, Hone’s foolish behaviour just underlines that the idea that he is cut out to be the leader of a serious political party is a complete non-starter.
- IrishBill 3.1
  
  5 May 2011 at 9:30 pm
  
  You’re right he’d be a better leader if he was like Don Brash, John Key, Phil Goff, Pita Sharples, Tariana Turia or Peter Dunne.
  
  Like I said I’m not a supporter of Hone’s but I’m not discounting him from any leadership club that includes this lot.
Scott 4

5 May 2011 at 9:32 pm

People are entitled to take a politician’s words at face value, and most people (on both left and right) were appalled by what Harawira said. He may not have meant what came out of his mouth, but they were the words he chose. Plenty of people on the left were appalled by what he said – not just the usual suspects on the right.

The fact that Hone continues to have these brain explosions speaks volumes. Even his most ardent supporters must be shaking their heads. Leader of a parliamentary party? God help us all. I am now beginning to have some sympathy for Phil Goff for ruling him out of any deal.
- felix 4.1
  
  5 May 2011 at 10:07 pm
  
  Do you mean take a politician’s words at face value?
  
  Or do you mean take the Herald’s paraphrasing and editing of those words at face value?
  
  Because your comment suggests to me that you don’t realise how different those two things are in this instance.
- Alwyn 4.2
  
  6 May 2011 at 2:37 pm
  
  The funniest part of Hone’s interview at the weekend was when he was talking about the 90 day bill.
  He claimed that if Don Brash had his way it would become a 60 day bill and then a 30 day bill.
  Funny, but from the left’s pont of view a 60 day instead of 90 period would have to be better and a 30 day period would be better again. Still we can’t expect much in the way of logic from someone who can seriously compare Don Brash with Hitler!
  - Vicky32 4.2.1
    
    6 May 2011 at 4:26 pm
    
    Funny, but from the left’s pont of view a 60 day instead of 90 period would have to be better and a 30 day period would be better again.
    
    Er, Alwyn, how do you work that out?
    - Alwyn 4.2.1.1
      
      6 May 2011 at 5:09 pm
      
      Think about it.
      If you had a 30 day period for a trial you would, if you lasted that long, have the right to claim unfair dismissal if you then lost your job. ie You could only be dismissed in the first 30 days, not the first 90 days.
      In fact you can say that what the Left is really after is a ZERO day bill. I don’t think that Hone got as far as saying that what Don would introduce is a zero day bill but he might have. I can’t really be bothered looking at the whole program again to check.
Terry 5

5 May 2011 at 9:34 pm

I left a comment on Yahoo Xtra, which can be referred to if they published this. I thought Hone’s remarks were clearly not supporting personally the very bad bin Laden. I have always detested bin Laden. But I also believe in the sanctity of every human life (yes, even Muslims – they are human beings too!)
I am so tired of seeing and hearing 99% American versions of what happened to accompany their indecent smirking and gloating. Justice is essential and good, plain vengeance is another matter. Hone I thought was very discerning and for that matter “pastoral”, all accompanied by his fearless and honest opinion. I do not know what he was apologising for – because he showed himself a caring human being for a man with people who loved him?
Key’s utterances were typically deplorable.
By no means do I make the slightest connection, but feel constrained to look at Christ (to vast numbers bin Laden could have been be likened to a Christ-like Saviour). Jesus at least received some semblance of a charge laid against him and a mockery of a trial. Osama bin Laden was murdered (clearly unarmed and passive), without getting to hear any charge laid, he could have been arrested and did not have even that opportunity, and most certainly he was executed without standing trial (even Hussain was permitted these rights).
The voice of the Islamic world is muted, a common effect of great shock and grief. We will never get the real facts, but mistake not silence for acceptance. Better that they do speak rather than deliver the actions they are sure, in their own time, to take.
Meanwhile plotting and ordering assassination has not blotted the name of Obama, it has ensured his popularity and victory at the election next year. It appears that he is learning new lessons from George Bush. I greatly disliked bin Laden, but I dislike also the absence of true justice and the nasty gloatings of vengeance which might next be taken on Assange? Hone there a more than a few who stand by you. You gave not a hint that you admired bin Laden for any evil things to his account.
ianmac 6

5 May 2011 at 9:37 pm

Thanks Irish Bill for your post. The twisting of truth was at least sad, and I would have thought that in the name of fair play, there would have been a bit more circumspection in the story. And to think that even many on the Left were gullible! And Trevor. Shame!
Drakula 7

5 May 2011 at 9:49 pm

So even Ill Duce or Franco or Milosovitch loved their families and did what they thought was right. We don’t have to like these people they were mass murderers.

I think if more people in NZ took a holiday on the Gaza Strip they would get what Honi is saying.

He hasn’t said anything offensive, it’s the fascist media trying to paint him black.

I wish him all the luck, but that’s not going to be enough, he is going to have to be carefull, steer clear from mid-east issues until November election.
Jim in Tokyo 8

5 May 2011 at 9:59 pm

Stuff.co.nz also went back and edited their own story during the day to obscure the fact that they misquoted Harawira.

Initially they reported that Harawira said we should ‘celebrate Bin Laden’s life’. 336 frenzied comments later, they closed comments then went back and changed the line in question to ‘celebrate life’.

Throughout, they did not quote Harawira but rather chose to paraphrase him in an intentionally misleading and inflammatory way.

I guess they figured the average stuff reader wouldn’t actually bother to watch the original Maori Television clip at the top of the page, and by in large they were right.
- stargazer 8.1
  
  5 May 2011 at 11:10 pm
  
  surely there’s plenty of scope for a press council complaint against both of these papers? as well as other media who have failed to report accurately.
- Jenny 8.2
  
  6 May 2011 at 3:37 am
  
  Jim in Tokyo
  
  Stuff.co.nz also went back and edited their own story during the day to obscure the fact that they misquoted Harawira.
  
  Jim your observation that Stuff went back to re-edit their lie after the fact is very telling.
  
  This alteration reminded me so strongly of the work of the ‘Ministry of Truth’, the fictional workplace of the George Orwell character Winston in the famous novel ‘1984’.
  
  Winston’s job at the Ministry of Truth was to go back to old news clippings and “correct” them. This was a fairly involved process meaning the actual hard copy archives had to be accessed and retyped, the original then having to be burnt in furnaces in the basement, of the building.
  
  George Orwell obviously had not imagined the invention of the internet and the desktop computer where the work of the ‘Ministry of Truth’ could be done electronically with just a few key strokes.
  
  I have often thought that the novel ‘1984’ was written as a warning by Orwell to his fellow journalists.
  
  I would advise all those involved in this ‘work’ to reread this old novel, and if they are able, hang their heads in shame.
Robert Atack 9

5 May 2011 at 10:26 pm

They had this so called death a mouth to late, it should have been on the 1st April, what with all the fools that believe it ffs.
You are the supposedly most wanted man in the world, living miles away from any recognised helicopter flight paths, then not only do 2 or 3 of them fly to, and then hover over your house, but one crashes and burns in your backyard … then some thugs blow a hole in your wall run up stairs and you are still sitting in or near your bed? Then they take your dead body 800 miles and drop you in the ocean. There must be a beer ad in this?
- Lanthanide 9.1
  
  6 May 2011 at 12:08 am
  
  It’s pretty simple, Robert. Either Osama is dead, and in the ocean, or he’s in American custody in a prison cell somewhere. It doesn’t really matter either way.
  
  He is certainly not alive and free somewhere – he would simply pop up in a new video, and show the US to be huge liars.
  
  You’re also acting like this was some routine helicopter run and they just took a side trip out to take Osama out on the way, which is frankly, bizarre.
- Drakula 9.2
  
  6 May 2011 at 8:47 pm
  
  How convenient it is for them to dump Bin Ladin’s body in the ocean, for all we know he could be still alive or he could have died even before the 9/11 attack.
  
  The CIA definately knew that there was a threat to those towers (Mike Moore) but just sat on the information.
  
  Wouldn’t that make them just as culpable as Bin Ladin? Maybe this is a subject for a seperate post.
  
  In the case of Hone’s misquote or blatant lie, the journalist involved should be disciplined, but then again how can they be disciplined if the rot is at a higher level?
  - Colonial Viper 9.2.1
    
    6 May 2011 at 9:05 pm
    
    BTW when you look at footage of the three large World Trade Centre buildings which came down on 9/11, all of them collapsed neatly and vertically on to their ground floor foot prints, minimising damage to nearby buildings.
    
    That pattern of structural disintegration also happens to be a characteristic of structures destroyed via carefully engineered controlled demolitions.
Samuel Hill 10

5 May 2011 at 10:33 pm

Well said Irish. Been saying this stuff about Harawira too. Mana is a Maori Socialist party, essentially with the same kind of image as a Maori Greens. The more people pick on Mana as to why it needs to be a Maori Party, the more they will find it hard to defend themselves. This is a Maori party trying to come across as a party for more than just Maoris, but will they campaign for General Electorate votes too? They are being attacked by a General electorate media. It isn’t just Maori voters watching you when you go on shows like Close Up. They are only a small party and it is silly for them to try and contest Maori seats and other Electorate seats.
- felix 10.1
  
  5 May 2011 at 10:52 pm
  
  Samuel,
  
  The bulk of this post is pretty much saying the exact opposite of what you’ve been saying about Hone today.
  
  This post is about how a horrible nasty lie has been spread.
  
  You’ve been helping to spread that lie today Samuel. Only an hour and a half before your comment here, you were busy spreading the lie.
  
  I’m starting to look sideways at you.
  - Samuel Hill 10.1.1
    
    6 May 2011 at 12:05 am
    
    Am I not allowed to attack both Mana and ACT? Is there some kind of contradiction in being a centrist?
    
    I have told you my point of view. You are very defensive about it. I am saying that I don’t care that Osama Bin Laden is dead, he deserves to be hung up for what he did. I don’t care about a trial for people like him. If it had been one of my own family killed on September 11, I would have probably wanted to hunt him down myself, despite my political understanding of Bin Laden’s Jihad on America.
    
    I have watched the video, and it doesn’t change my opinion, or my senses I get from Hone Harawira. Even if it is the traditional Maori view to say that we should not speak about the dead, or to only remember the good things in life about the dead, I don’t really care about that because MY personal beliefs hold that those things in the context of Osama Bin Laden are wrong. Now if this is Hone using his being Maori to hoax some extreme left wing people into his party, I am a little worried about a guy who puts bait out there like that. He certainly isn’t going to be pulling any centrists. If the leader of the National Party or Labour Party said these kind of things, I would suspect there would be some very interesting phone calls being made from certain countries.
    
    [lprent: Your opinion is one thing that the site generally doesn’t care about. However felix is pulling you up on your assertion of a fact about what Hone actually said. Support it or withdraw it. And read the policy. ]
    - felix 10.1.1.1
      
      6 May 2011 at 8:21 am
      
      So what?
      
      What you’ve been doing is misquoting and pretending that Hone said things he never said, and I still haven’t seen you acknowledge that yet.
      
      Very dishonest behaviour, Samuel.
      - Samuel Hill 10.1.1.1.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 8:39 am
        
        felix..
        
        What I did was quote the 3 news story which said that Hone Harawira said we should “honour” Osama Bin Laden. Now I will admit that haven’t found a direct quote of him even using the word honour, but I told you when I posted the story that it wasn’t me adding in the quotation marks. If this is bad behaviour I apologize for that.
        
        What I have found is a quote from Harawira saying that we should “acknowledge the positive aspects of life” in regard to Osama Bin Laden. That doesn’ change my opinion I already have of Harawira over sevral years watching him on television and in the media.
        
        [lprent: The short answer is that as far as I can see from the discussion he never said that he ‘honoured” him. If you want to repeat your assertion when challenged then you have to substantiate your assertion of fact with a link to something reputable. If you cannot then you will stop repeating it because as far as I’m concerned that would be a flamewar starter (see the policy).
        
        What you have replied with here is an argument against bad journalism (the point that Irish was making), another quote without a link, and a clearly stated opinion. The latter appears to be the only thing you’re expressing. ]
        
        felix 10.1.1.1.1.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 8:48 am
        
        And again, I’m not challenging your opinion. On anything.
        
        I’m just challenging your repetition of the lie. The one the post is about.
        
        So opinion away, have a big opinion party and invite all your opinions around for some opinion pie if you like. BUT when you use proven lies and pretend that they’re facts to give weight to your opinions, people are likely to point that out.
        
        Colonial Viper 10.1.1.1.1.2
        
        6 May 2011 at 8:48 am
        
        What I did was quote the 3 news story which said that Hone Harawira said we should “honour” Osama Bin Laden.
        
        Perpetrating someone else’s lie is still lying.
        
        Defending yourself doing that takes it one step further.
        
        Samuel Hill 10.1.1.1.1.3
        
        6 May 2011 at 10:40 am
        
        Here is the 3 News link from the original story I quoted.
        
        http://www.3news.co.nz/Hone-Harawira-Bin-Laden-fought-for-freedom/tabid/419/articleID/209839/Default.aspx
        
        I have already apologised for using what appears to be a misquote. I can’t find any footage of Harawira using the word “honoured”.
        
        Here is another quote though, and for all you people silly enough to think that I am an ACT Troll, the location of the link should cause you some delight:
        
        From the NBR:
        
        http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/bin-laden-freedom-fighter-harawira-nn-92331
        
        “We have heard nothing but negative things about him from the Americans, but he fought for the self-determination of his people and for his beliefs,” Mr Harawira said.
        
        “Indeed despite what the media has said, his family, his tribe, his people are in mourning. They mourn for the man who fought for the rights, the lands and the freedom of his people. We should not damn them in death but acknowledge the positive aspects of life.”
        
        I don’t agree with these comments. I don’t think Osama Bin Laden should be showed any respect, just as I don’t think he should be honoured. This adds to my opinion I already of Hone Harawira. Anyone who makes these kind of comments is either very misguided, or trying to get ignorant people to vote for them. I don’t like that.
        
        Does that cover everything?
        
        [lprent: I think that you have mistaken the intent of my warning. If I see another instance of you squirming and bullshitting when pulled up on a statement of fact, you’ll earn a ban. I really don’t care about your excuses or who are. I expect people commenting here to comply when warned, or offer an explanation about why they were doing what they did, or leave – not excuses. If I have to expend to much time moderating then I will ban for that as well.
        
        Moderators opinion about what is acceptable behavior counts here. Your opinion (or anyone elses) about what is acceptable behavior is just irrelevant waffle. Does that clarify things for you? ]
        
        Samuel Hill …
        
        6 May 2011 at 12:12 pm
        
        So what, I can’t even debate? I think you already have your opinion made up that you don’t like what I have to say. Squirming and bullshitting? Wow. I didn’t realise coming to an understanding with somebody else as to what their problem with what I had to say was squirming and bullshitting. I completely accept that I made an error and apologised. But now that I pull out some information that supports my feelings on the BIG PICTURE, I get threatened with a ban?
        
        I guess if I said fuck the police or wanted to have a tangi for Osama Bin Laden it would be fine though?
        
        Colonial Viper …
        
        6 May 2011 at 12:14 pm
        
        Interesting you think that you “perpetrating lies” = “debate”. Definitely reckon you are a NACT supporter tasked with undermining Hone.
        
        Samuel Hill …
        
        6 May 2011 at 12:23 pm
        
        What I’m essentially being told now is that I am not allowed to partake in the debate even after retracting statements I made using what I did not know at the time was false information.
        
        After reading your comments I made a clearer argument and used links as was requested and will do in the future.
        
        But I guess even challenging authority here will probably get me banned. I hope I am wrong.
        
        [lprent: Making a clear retraction is required. Trying to divert onto another topic does not constitute a retraction. As you say – state it clearly and I don’t have to waste my time as a moderator.
        
        Of course challenging ‘authority’ here will certainly get you banned, because the moderators define what is acceptable behavior here. You will be wasting our time, and that is a cardinal offense. A moments thought will tell you why.
        
        Remember the site is manned by volunteers who write posts, moderate, and do all of the scut work that is required to keep the site running. We’re doing this in our own time, and the last thing we need is some half-arsed know-it-all chewing up our time by trying to tell us how we should be running our site. We’ve been running it for nearly 4 years and know exactly what tends to work and what doesn’t (as reflected in the rising site stats). One part of that is that moderators don’t waste too much time arguing with people who indulge themselves in behavior that gets them a ban.
        
        Quite simply we make the rules that are followed because we are the ones doing the work and you are a guest. If you don’t like it then go elsewhere or start your own blog. But if you are a guest here then you will follow our less than onerous standards of behavior and don’t waste our time on something you can read in the about or the policy. ]
        
        felix …
        
        6 May 2011 at 1:01 pm
        
        Nah, being a dick will probably get you banned.
        
        I never saw you retract anything. In fact long after it was patiently explained and carefully shown by way of videos and links that you were repeating lies, you were still doing the same thing but with a slightly altered phrasing.
        
        In fact, Samuel, in your comment just above, with the links, you’re still trying to tie Hone to the idea of honouring Bin Laden.
        
        Absorb this:
        
        I’ve read Samuel’s comments. What sort of disgusting person would hate children? I don’t hate children. It all just adds to my opinion of Samuel Hill.
        
        That’s what you’re doing now.
        
        Seems like for quite a long time everyone tried to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you were misinformed, but the trouble is that even when you had to have known that, you carried on misinforming.
        
        Note: no-one has criticised your ability to express opinions or state facts. But don’t try your bullshit on me Sam.
        
        Samuel Hill …
        
        6 May 2011 at 1:45 pm
        
        Well done, you’re putting two and two together now felix..
        
        a)I don’t check this page every 5 minutes, nor the news. When you urged me to watch the videos etc yesterday, I did. And I have admitted several times that I was wrong to quote the TV 3 article.. When are you going to accept that? I will say it again. I WAS WRONG TO USE IT. SORRY.
        
        b)You are on the right track as to why I posted the NBR link with the actual quote. I am not using it to show that Harawira REALLY DOES SUPPORT OSAMA. No, I don’t believe that. I used the link to show that Hone was not scathing of Bin Laden, and in his initial answers on Te Karere, I think he was more or less pandering to far-left, anti-US voters.
        
        Ofcourse supporting Bin Laden and refusing to vilify him on his death are two completely different things. I do realise that. My point is that I don’t find Harawiras comments were the comments of somebody who I want to be in power in this country. If he had any type of knowledge as to what average kiwis think, he would have realised he was making a mistake with those comments. Thats why he had to apologise.
        
        The fact that he HAD TO APOLOGISE over the remarks he made, remarks I think he made not based on his opinion, but on his desire to appeal to voters outside the mainstream, shows to me a lack of class. If he had of just said, “Bin Laden did some terrible things, but I don’t think we should celebrate anybodys death” Then he wouldn’t be in this situation of him having to apologise.
        
        Thats all I am saying.
        
        Do you understand that? Please tell me you do.
        
        felix …
        
        6 May 2011 at 1:47 pm
        
        But that’s not all you’ve been saying Samuel. See my previous comment.
        
        Colonial Viper …
        
        6 May 2011 at 2:13 pm
        
        Samuel Hill doesn’t check The Standard every 5 minutes but has posted here, what dozens of times in the last few days?
        
        “Yeah right”.
        
        A NACTer tasked with taking Hone down.
        
        higherstandard …
        
        6 May 2011 at 2:17 pm
        
        Jees CV do you really think NACT want Hone to be taken down ?
        
        Really ?
        
        I’d think their view is that Mana and hone are heaven sent.
        
        Samuel Hill …
        
        6 May 2011 at 2:27 pm
        
        Hahaha. Thats all you’ve got to cling onto isn’t in Colonial Viper?
        
        Colonial Viper …
        
        6 May 2011 at 8:34 pm
        
        No what I have to cling too is frakin hot, babelicious and rich.
        
        You’re just a hobby
Rodel 11

5 May 2011 at 10:43 pm

Shame on Trevor. You should just roll over, respect and accept Harawira’s rants. Bullshit!
No Good for you Trev! Harawaia is your opposition, and a bullshit artist like Brash, Key and Co.

Get stuck into him and ridicule his nonsense which is as stupid as Brash’s crap, English’s deceit and Keys duplicity.
The Labour party needs the Mallards of this world. Show a bit of gumption Labour. Then people might vote for you.
Is this a Mana party website or wot?
- Wobble 11.1
  
  5 May 2011 at 11:06 pm
  
  Rodel – Are you a Labour Party hack or what?
- Colonial Viper 11.2
  
  5 May 2011 at 11:32 pm
  
  Not sure how Labour helps matters or itself by extending the misleading MSM hype.
Lanthanide 12

6 May 2011 at 12:10 am

It would be nice for the Johnny-come-lately media to actually investigate the original claim, and then report on that, rather than just copying what other media have said.

Imagine what it would be like if TV3 ran a story saying “news media biased: Hone doesn’t worship Osama”.
Sanctuary 13

6 May 2011 at 6:57 am

Another post yesterday here on the Wikileaks cables quoted an American diplomat remarking on our media’s “excessive fondness of political novelty” – a polite way of saying they are feckless and lazy. Given that, how can anyone, least of all Hone Harawira, not have guessed what they would focus on when he made those statements? There is no need for a plot against the left or against Maori. A lazy, ratings driven media is all you need.
- IrishBill 13.1
  
  6 May 2011 at 7:01 am
  
  But it’s helped along by some very hardworking and well organised operators on the right (and some stupid mistakes from the likes of Harawira).
PeteG 14

6 May 2011 at 7:23 am

Why then has Harawira apologised with:

“Using terror for political reasons is never acceptable. I apologise for how I expressed myself.”

And on this corrected quote:

“they [bin laden’s family] mourn for a man who fought for the rights, the land and the freedom of his people”

and “pursued independence for his people, his family and his tribe”.

There is no indication Hone is in a position to quote on behalf of bin Laden’s family, so this must be his own views on bin Laden as a freedom fighter, as Hone views himself.

I still agree with Morgan Godfery…

As I said, Hone does not lack control. This was not a random comment. It was a statement of genuine belief and a foolish one at that. If anything sinks the Mana Party it will be these sorts of deformed views – it will not be lack of discipline and control.
felix 15

6 May 2011 at 8:38 am

“There is no indication Hone is in a position to quote on behalf of bin Laden’s family”

Which he didn’t do.

“so this must be his own views on bin Laden as a freedom fighter, as Hone views himself.”

Except that it’s explicitly not. Duh. Who refers to himself as “they” you moron?
- PeteG 15.1
  
  6 May 2011 at 9:00 am
  
  Saying “they mourn” is a presumption, I guess it depends on what members of bin Laden’s family Hone is making the presumption for. Bin Laden has 20 known children with 5 wives. He had 54 known siblings. Difficult to talk for all of them, especially when you don’t know any of them.
  
  There is no indication that any of bin Laden’s family thought he “fought for the rights, the land and the freedom of his people”. So that must Harawira’s view on it – unless he or you can show otherwise.
  - felix 15.1.1
    
    6 May 2011 at 9:22 am
    
    I can show otherwise by pointing to the fucking words on the page – it’s quite clearly Hone’s presumption of the Bin Laden family’s views, no argument there.
    
    Perhaps they’re actually your views Pete. After all I don’t have any proof they’re not.
    - PeteG 15.1.1.1
      
      6 May 2011 at 9:30 am
      
      So yes, obviously it’s what Harawira thinks, or at least what he wanted to say.
      It is not a known view of anyone from the many in the bin Laden family.
      
      I didn’t say it and it’s not my view at all, you’re getting a bit desperate.
      - felix 15.1.1.1.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 12:41 pm
        
        Pete you’ve said twice now that because Hone presumes to know what the Bin Laden family are thinking, he must in fact be thinking the same thing he presumes they’re thinking.
        
        By that “reasoning” (and I do hesitate to call it that) if I say “Pete George blows goats and really, really likes it” does that somehow prove that actually I blow goats and really like it?
        
        I’d love to hear why you think that’s not the exact same argument you’re using.
        
        PeteG 15.1.1.1.1.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 1:12 pm
        
        There’s a major difference.
        
        You have absolutely no reason to link me with goats, so you either made it up completely or you personally have something with goats.
        
        I think there is a widespread recognition that Harawira was projecting his own ideas of himself onto the bin Laden family. It is not just me who thinks that. Harawira (or his strategists) seems to have recognised he erred, he has apologised. And I’ll repeat a quote from Morgan Godfer above:
        
        As I said, Hone does not lack control. This was not a random comment. It was a statement of genuine belief and a foolish one at that.
        
        felix …
        
        6 May 2011 at 1:33 pm
        
        Doesn’t alter anything.
        
        Here’s what I’m disputing: You said “So that must [be] Harawira’s view on it”
        
        A statement for which you have no basis whatsoever unless you use my “goats” reasoning.
        
        Please try again.
        
        PeteG …
        
        6 May 2011 at 1:58 pm
        
        It must be his view, he said it, “– unless he or you can show otherwise” – the bit of my statement you have omitted from your quote. Do you think it wasn’t his view?
        
        I think you’re being a bit of a goat about your “reasoning”.
        
        felix …
        
        6 May 2011 at 2:04 pm
        
        “It must be his view, he said it”
        
        It’s his view that it’s someone else’s view. That’s not the same thing as it being his view at all.
        
        You’re still using my “goat” reasoning to the letter.
        
        You’re saying that anything someone says about someone else automatically applies to them as well. This makes no sense whatsoever.
        
        Please try again without the goat reasoning.
        
        PeteG …
        
        6 May 2011 at 2:29 pm
        
        Suffering a bit of Fridayitis felix?
        
        Dispute it if you like, but I think it is fairly general knowledge that Harawira sees himself as someone who fights “for the rights, the land and the freedom of his people”.
        
        He said the bin Laden family mourn – probably some of them at least do that – for “for a man who fought for the rights, the land and the freedom of his people””.
        
        So Harawira said (and presumably thinks) bin Laden “fought for the rights, the land and the freedom of his people””.
        
        Harawira’s view of himself and his view of bin Laden appear to correlate. So it’s a reasonable assumption to make that it is his view on both counts. Don’t distract yourelf with your goat obsession, just see it as it is, it’s quite simple.
        
        lprent []
        
        6 May 2011 at 3:25 pm
        
        I’d agree with felix. You are using a goat screwing argument.
        
        I usually refer to it as a “1 + 1 = 11” argument beloved of such illogical thinkers as Whaleoil, Wishart and evidentially now yourself. This is because you leap to an unjustified conclusion based on the similarity of objects. This may be the basis of sympathetic magic and the current highest levels of right wing thought (eg Trump), but I just find it idiotic in the extreme.
        
        Pascal's bookie …
        
        6 May 2011 at 2:33 pm
        
        felix.
        
        I think Pete is very subtly trying to let us know that he believes all the things he assumes Hone does.
        
        It’s all that Straussian esoteric writing business.
        
        That ‘just see it as it is’, for example, is a dead give away.
        
        felix …
        
        6 May 2011 at 2:38 pm
        
        So this is what we have so far:
        
        a) Pete thinks Hone believes (x)
        
        b) Hone States that he believes someone else thinks (x)
        
        c) Therefore Hone must also believe (x)
        
        If there’s a step I’m missing, Pete, please point it out would you?
        
        edit: P’s b I think that might be it. After all he has repeated Hone’s statement a few times so I guess that means he agrees with it.
        
        ianmac …
        
        6 May 2011 at 2:42 pm
        
        PeteG says he has a comb. A rooster has a comb. Therefore Pete is a rooster. Simple.
        
        PeteG …
        
        6 May 2011 at 3:00 pm
        
        a) Pete thinks Hone believes (x)
        
        That’s the bit you seem to be struggling with (or pretending to struggle with). Are you really suggesting I’m the only one who thinks that?
        
        If you can understand that many people think something like that you might start to get it. I’ll put it in your sort of language:
        
        a) Many people think Hone believes (x).
        
        Then it’s not a huge step to:
        
        c) Therefore Hone may probably also believe (x)
        
        wtl …
        
        6 May 2011 at 3:27 pm
        
        a) Many people think Hone believes (x).
        
        Then it’s not a huge step to:
        
        c) Therefore Hone may probably also believe (x)
        
        Very good logic. Lets all use that logic and go back to the goats example. I think PeteG likes goats (see above). All those who think the same, please add your comments here. If ‘many’ people think that we will have:
        
        c) Therefore PeteG may probably like goats
        
        Pascal's bookie …
        
        6 May 2011 at 3:33 pm
        
        I’ve noticed people recently talking about PeteG’s unsavoury obsession with goats. Where there’s smoke there’s fire. That’s just simple logic.
        
        PeteG …
        
        6 May 2011 at 3:35 pm
        
        wtl – there’s a major flaw in your attempt at a mass attack. It’s obvious that no one has any idea of my views on goats, apart from felix acting like billy. And you know what Harawira is well known for.
        
        felix, you’ll have to try a bit harder, lp has not come in black so you can deliver you closing lecture under cover.
        
        lp – do you really think that “Harawira sees himself as fighting for the rights, the land and the freedom of his people” it an unjustified conclusion?
        
        Here’s some more from Morgan:
        
        It is not that Hone lacks discipline, he is not shooting from the hip, he genuinely believes that Osama Bin Laden is freedom fighter. I am no expert on the subject, but others more qualified than I have indicated that he was not – he was in fact a cruel and oppressive man with warped religious notions. Osama did not believe in freedom in the proper sense of the word.
        
        This is Hone’s most significant problem. He is supremely confident in his beliefs, but some of his beliefs are built upon romantic and ultimately fallacious notions. Hone Harawira immediately equates the underdog, the perceived anti-western/anti-colonial fighter with something good.
        
        He equated bin Laden’s fight with his romantic notion of his own.
        
        felix …
        
        6 May 2011 at 3:38 pm
        
        Dearest Pete, no-one said you were the only one.
        
        But now you’re back to plain old begging the question. You can’t use a lie in the Herald to prove itself because a bunch of people believed it was true.
        
        Also, you’ve mentioned goats quite a few times today. There’s obviously more to this Pete/goat connection than I first thought.
        
        Obviously.
        
        billy goat …
        
        6 May 2011 at 3:38 pm
        
        Speaking on behalf of NZ goats, I can confirm we have no interest in the advances of Pete G.
        
        wtl …
        
        6 May 2011 at 3:47 pm
        
        I wasn’t really calling for a mass attack, but rather pointing out the absurdity of your logic. If you feel threatened, you should have another look at your logic – you are basically saying that if enough people believe that y thinks x, then it is probably true that y thinks x. Is that fair? Judge for yourself.
        
        I don’t know you personally, neither do I know Harawira. All I can go by is what I see/read. The only reason you think Harawira thinks x is because of the reports in the MSM (unless I am mistaken and you know him personally). The same with comments about you. All I can go by are comments here. Yes, you have never said that you like goats. But neither did Harawira really say what was attributed to him. Yet somehow because it is reported in the media that Harawira thinks x, then it is true? Perhaps then, the only real flaw in my comment is that there isn’t a story in the MSM saying that PeteG likes goats (even if it is untrue). If there was, then more people would believe it, which, by your logic would make it true.
        
        felix …
        
        6 May 2011 at 3:52 pm
        
        “It’s obvious that no one has any idea of my views on goats, apart from felix acting like billy.”
        
        Not so, Pete. In fact there’s a growing consensus around your goat-related activities.
        
        ianmac mentioned that you might be a cock, and I’m not sure what that means but it’s all farmyard-related, isn’t it?
        
        PeteG …
        
        6 May 2011 at 4:01 pm
        
        It’s obvious you’re running out of flawed argument when you resort to that. Trying the direct flame approach and see if that works?
        
        no-one said you were the only one.
        
        If you concede I’m not the only one and that there may be many others it blows your wee game away a bit, doesn’t it.
        
        lprent …
        
        6 May 2011 at 4:21 pm
        
        Ummm looks like goat friday to me… Follows the week after good friday.
        
        PeteG …
        
        6 May 2011 at 4:43 pm
        
        You’re kidding, Good Friday was two weeks ago.
        
        felix …
        
        6 May 2011 at 5:05 pm
        
        “If you concede I’m not the only one and that there may be many others it blows your wee game away a bit, doesn’t it.”
        
        No, because I think you and others are wrong together.
        
        Durr.
the sprout 16

6 May 2011 at 8:51 am

great post – thanks for writing this Irish.
it helps a lot to know there are still a few sane, skeptical people out there.

Mallard’s post on Red Alert really underscored what an embittered has-been arsehole he’s become.
Daveo 17

6 May 2011 at 10:48 am

Looks like the lie is becoming a diplomatic incident now. Well done liars you’ve really done us all proud as a nation now.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/4970392/Harawiras-bin-Laden-comments-hit-Pakistan
- Colonial Viper 17.1
  
  6 May 2011 at 11:49 am
  
  Yeah the MSM liars didn’t look that far ahead.
  
  Now it’s taken a life of it’s own, as these things do, and threatens NZ’s reputation.
- higherstandard 17.2
  
  6 May 2011 at 2:12 pm
  
  Hone has no one to blame but himself, he should think twice before he opens his mouth – this is just another example in a long list of his fuck ups which suggests he’s a combination of a bit of a thickee and a stirrer.
  - felix 17.2.1
    
    6 May 2011 at 2:19 pm
    
    Kind of yeah.
    
    It was dumb* enough that he said what he did say, but that doesn’t give the media a license to make up other shit and pretend he said that too.
    
    *unless this is what he wanted in which case not** so dumb.
    
    **unless “what he wanted” was a dumb idea all along, in which case refer to the start of this comment.
    - ianmac 17.2.1.1
      
      6 May 2011 at 2:45 pm
      
      Hone reached the Pakistan and Brit news but they print his words without a slant that our MSM put on it. And I think that there is a certain amount of support for his position even when misrepresented.
      - PeteG 17.2.1.1.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 3:01 pm
        
        Do you support the position he took on bin Laden Ian?
        
        The position he then apologised for?
        
        felix 17.2.1.1.1.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 3:43 pm
        
        Those are two different things Pete.
        
        1. As I understand it he apologised for the way he expressed his opinion, and
        
        2. as you’re demonstrating on the other thread you have a very different idea of what his “position” was than I do.
        
        You’re asking whether I agree with something that I’m not at all certain exists, and even if it does I may define it differently to you. So there’s no possible answer to that really.
        
        If you sort out a straight question I’d be happy to give you a straight answer.
        
        felix …
        
        6 May 2011 at 5:08 pm
        
        Not interested in that course of action Pete? Shock I am.
        
        Puddleglum 17.2.1.1.1.2
        
        6 May 2011 at 7:22 pm
        
        PeteG,
        
        I have a slightly different take on this than Felix. I think, for good reasons, that Hone may well (indeed should) believe that Bin Laden was “a man who fought for the rights, the land and the freedom of his people”. It would be curious to believe otherwise since the evidence is almost overwhelming that that is exactly why Bin Laden was fighting.
        
        Here’s my view of Bin Laden, his beliefs, Bin Laden’s family’s beliefs (I know, there’s lots of them and they probably have different beliefs) and your beliefs about Hone’s beliefs.
        
        Judging by numerous releases (videos, recordings, statements, etc.) that appear to have come from Osama Bin Laden, I have every reason to believe that Bin Laden himself believed he was fighting a ‘good’ fight which, at least in part, involved liberating Saudi Arabia and Muslim’s in general (i.e., ‘freeing’ them) so that they could live Muslim lives in their lands without being dominated by foreigners.
        
        It also seems reasonable to believe that a number of members of Bin Laden’s family supported him (some of them were in his ‘compound’, some were his children, etc.). Therefore, it also seems reasonable that at least some of them believed what he believed – that he was fighting for freedom and to liberate ‘his people’, etc..
        
        When Bin Laden died, those same family members would, I believe, have mourned for him (they were family, after all). Part of that mourning was, therefore, for someone who was understood, by himself and by them, to be fighting for freedom for his people and for their lands.
        
        So, when Hone said that “they [bin laden’s family] mourn for a man who fought for the rights, the land and the freedom of his people” and “pursued independence for his people, his family and his tribe” this seems extraordinarily accurate, even a truism, unless we assume that Bin Laden’s motives were not genuine.
        
        But, once again, from his recordings, writings, etc. Bin Laden seemed pretty genuine about being motivated by concern for the ‘rights, land and freedom of his people’. Unless we have some conspiracy that Bin Laden was some sort of CIA agent provocateur then those do seem to be his motives. Of course, we might think that the means by which he chose to pursue those ends were grotesque and utterly unjustified but that doesn’t change what appears to be the fact that some such motivation was driving him.
        
        I’d agree that Hone was unwise to voice these almost self-evident truths because it would have been obvious that his political opponents – and those who have no sympathy with his other views concerning Maori sovereignty – would try to imply that his words were evidence for, not only that Hone believed that Bin Laden was motivated by such motives (as, quite obviously, were the Saudis on the planes, the London underground bombers, etc.) but also that he approved of the means by which Bin Laden pursued them. That’s one reason why politicians are routinely afraid to voice self-evident truths – they often go against some myth or other that has hold of the public imagination, for various reasons.
        
        Hone’s opponents (e.g., you) may genuinely believe that Hone does approve of the means Bin Laden used but Hone’s actions (e.g., becoming an MP rather than, for example, trying to organise a guerilla army) suggest that he is not himself predisposed to use those means. In other words, I can’t see the evidence from Hone’s actions that he would approve of Bin Laden’s means. Do you have such evidence?
        
        To try to clarify my argument here’s a starter for 10, PeteG: Do you think Bin Laden thought that he was fighting for the ‘rights, the land and the freedom of his people’?
        
        If ‘yes’, then you agree entirely with Hone’s comments quoted above. If ‘no’, then you must have some evidence that Bin Laden’s motives were not those he expressed, and that Bin Laden was either unaware of his true motivation or was part of some deception and had other reasons for his actions.
        
        PeteG …
        
        6 May 2011 at 11:17 pm
        
        I have no idea what bin Laden’s motivation was over a couple of decades.
        
        Bin Laden was outspoken against the Saudi government, he was banished and had his passport revoked.
        
        As a result of his dealings in and advocacy of violent extremist jihad, Osama bin Laden lost his Saudi citizenship in 1994 and was disowned by his billionaire family.
        
        So he didn’t exactly fight for the “rights, the land and the freedom of his people”. He buggered off to the Sudan and then to Afghanistan, countries of other people. You can debate whether he fought there for those people and their land, or for his own religious ambitions.
        
        Puddleglum …
        
        7 May 2011 at 8:39 pm
        
        Bin Laden was obviously concerned at the deployment of US troops in Saudi Arabia. Your quote is from the 9/11 Commission Report. In your link, however, in the section preceding (on Al Qaeda’s formation) you’ll note that the reason given there for his exile was his outspoken criticism of the Saudi government for allowing US troops on Saudi soil (i.e., not because of “his dealings in and advocacy of violent extremist jihad – after all, in Wahabi Saudi Arabia that’s a very common advocacy).
        
        It’s also well acknowledged (it appears in many of the tapes purported to be from him) that he supported Palestinians in their attempts to gain statehood and condemned the actions of Israel and presence of the US. Irrespective of your position on the Israel-Palestinian conflict, it’s clear Bin Laden was advocating Palestinians rights to their land and to be a free people.
        
        On the matter of religion, yes he undoubtedly was a very pious man and sees most of the ‘freedom fighting’ occurring in the Muslim world as part of some religious drama. But I don’t see how that is incompatible with him fighting for the “rights, the land adn the freedom of his people” (whether those people be Saudi’s or Muslims in general). After all, many WWII partisans fighting German occupation were committed communists and socialists and probably saw the battle as a political and ideological one (and part of an international and global battle). I don’t think anyone, however, would deny that they were freedom fighters. And, in Spain, the International Brigade were composed of foreigners (so, of course, was the fascist army – Italians and Germans) who were motivated by various values, ideologies and the like. Once again, I don’t think anyone would claim they weren’t fighting for the freedom of Spain and the Spanish people.
        
        I really don’t see why advocating jihad somehow means Bin Laden is not someone who fights for “the rights, the land and the freedom of his people”. It’s pretty clear, isn’t it, that in the last couple of decades his main enemy was western power exercised in Muslim lands? He opposed western power dominating, invading and taking over those lands, didn’t he? If ‘yes’, then isn’t it a very simple step to see that he was fighting for rights, land and freedom for ‘his’ people?
        
        I think the reason why people think that this would be a terrible thing to ascribe to Bin Laden is that, for some reason, they think that ascribing that motive necessitates ‘respecting’ or ‘approving’ of his means to achieve those rights and freedoms. Obviously it doesn’t. No-one has to concede that he’s a ‘good man’ or that what he did was ‘ok’ just because we acknowledge that he fought for what, in many circumstances, we would see as a good cause. The ‘ends’ might be fine (I, for one, certainly think that western powers – or any powers – should stop interfering in other people’s countries); but there’s still the means to consider.
        
        A ‘noble’ end doesn’t give a free moral pass to the means. In fact, in many, if not most, cases, it is the means that determine the overall moral content of someone’s actions, not the end for which they act (or for which they claim to act).
Armchair Worrier 18

6 May 2011 at 4:49 pm

Regardless of whether their was a slight misquotation of Hone’s words his sense is clear – the day that justice was served on the worst terrorist of modern times, he chooses to point out that his family will mourn him as a fighter for ‘the rights, the land and the freedom of his people”. The timing and word choice betray his sympathies.
This either shows an ignorance of recent history – OBL fought for the restoration of the medieval infidel free caliphate under the most repressive brand of Islam and was inarguably an enthusiast for the removal of the rights, lands and freedom of those who didnt happen to share his warped version of islam, or a deliberate alignment with ANY anti western movement no matter how violent their methods. Then again perhaps its both . ..
Jim in Tokyo 19

6 May 2011 at 4:57 pm

This just gets worse and worse. Did anybody actually watch the video? Obviously not readers of the NBR, otherwise they would have picked up on the fact that the NZPA article is also based on a fabricated quote:

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/bin-laden-freedom-fighter-harawira-nn-92331

““We have heard nothing but negative things about him from the Americans, but he fought for the self-determination of his people and for his beliefs,” Mr Harawira said.”

This was actually word for word a quote from the presenter of the show – Harawira said nothing of the sort. He was actually relatively diplomatic in his response:

“Indeed, despite what the media have said, his family, his tribe, his people are in mourning. They mourn for the man who fought for the rights, the land, the freedom of his people”.

As to why he went even this far, he helpfully bookends his comments by explaining TWICE that it is Maori protocol to honour all dead, a point which also got lost in the mainstream media scramble.

“We should not damn them in death, but acknowledge the positive aspects of life”.
- Pascal's bookie 19.1
  
  6 May 2011 at 5:04 pm
  
  Now there’s a classy bunch of commenters. A number of folks wishing Hone dead.
  
  Does Collins know?
Toby Keith 20

6 May 2011 at 5:35 pm

He called him a freedom fighter, Hone deserves all the crap that he is getting from the media and the public, to support that statement your not re4ally grounded in reality.
- ianmac 20.1
  
  6 May 2011 at 6:11 pm
  
  USA has sharp shooters.
  The enemy have snipers.
  The USA have Freedom Fighters.
  The people fighting invaders in Afghanistan are terrorists.
  The USA suffered 3,000 terrible losses in 9/11.
  Iraq suffered terrible civilian losses in excess of 500,000 but they were just collateral damage.
  USA carries out an extra-judicial assassination in another country.
  Others regard Justice and the right to a fair trial as indications of a fair society.
  
  Just depends on your point of view really.
  - PeteG 20.1.1
    
    6 May 2011 at 6:16 pm
    
    What’s your point of view on what Osama bin Laden was Ian?
    - Colonial Viper 20.1.1.1
      
      6 May 2011 at 6:29 pm
      
      Osama was some unarmed guy who got executed in cold blood by a heavily armed US special forces detachment, probably on orders.
      
      Osama is also a Weapon of Mass Distraction.
      
      He’s not going to help the US from circling down the drain and he’s not going to help the tens of millions of American unemployed, underemployed and living in poverty even as over a trillion US$ have been spent in military adventures in Iraq and Afghanistan.
      
      Lots of money available for the military industrial complex and their major shareholders, none for teachers, police, health and fire services.
      - joe90 20.1.1.1.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 6:36 pm
        
        One version, executed.
        
        Colonial Viper 20.1.1.1.1.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 6:43 pm
        
        Yeah, the President needed to assert political strength in the US, and capturing Osama would have led to a trial which would have been a major distraction for the Obama administration for months (as well as probably kept ratcheting up tensions with Pakistan).
        
        This way its a done deal, totally “surgical” and contained. And Obama gets political points for being a tough war time President who is not afraid of making tough calls.
        
        Pascal's bookie …
        
        6 May 2011 at 7:27 pm
        
        There is that, certainly. But that’s not all of it.
        
        Taking him alive would have entailed a lot more risk of failure. If the headlines had of been along the lines of “Dozens killed in botched raid” with the Whitehouse claiming that the house that exploded was where bin laden was hiding, and the Pakistanis going full bore ‘outrage against our sovereignty’?
        
        AQ could easily have announced it first, hailing the glorious martyrdom of obl, who refused to be taken by the infidel and detonated a prepared welcome for the infidel, taking out a squad of their finest crusaders blah blah blah.
        
        It’s complicated.
    - Pascal's bookie 20.1.1.2
      
      6 May 2011 at 6:31 pm
      
      Fairly accomplished practitioner of 4th generation warfare. Wahhabist. Developed and put into practice Qtibs (sp?) strategies. Charismatic by all accounts. Disciplined. Not a cartoon character.
      - rosy 20.1.1.2.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 6:51 pm
        
        Fairly accomplished practitioner of 4th generation warfare
        
        who aimed to take down the US financially rather than militarily, hence the symbolic target of the world trade center and targeting transportation systems. He may well have succeeded… the endgame is still to be played out.
        
        Pascal's bookie 20.1.1.2.1.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 7:00 pm
        
        Yeah, they aren’t even hiding anymore. There was a discussion paper they published a while ago, in english, laughing at western responses to ‘failed’ attempts on airliners. Cost to AQ was around 40K, cost to west in terms of heightened security measures, millions/year.
        
        I’ll try and track it down
        
        Colonial Viper …
        
        6 May 2011 at 7:15 pm
        
        Imagine crippling or destroying a US$4M Abrams tank using a US$200 IED based off a couple of salvaged Saddam Hussein era land mines. That’s a 20,000:1 pay off. Doesn’t get much better than that.
        
        Osama Bin Laden has effectively a trillion dollars to the American federal debt with a spend of just a couple of million (if that), and the cost to the Americans is still climbing.
        
        Pascal's bookie …
        
        6 May 2011 at 7:16 pm
        
        Here tis:
        
        http://securityinnovator.com/index.php?articleID=15989&sectionID=27
        
        not 40k, 4k.
        
        More editions of the purported AQ mag here:
        
        http://publicintelligence.net/complete-inspire-al-qaeda-in-the-arabian-peninsula-aqap-magazine/
        
        Interesting stuff. I’m mainly interested by the vast gulf between the strategic narratives outlined in their propaganda and ours.
        
        rosy …
        
        6 May 2011 at 8:00 pm
        
        Thanks, that is really important information. I don’t understand why politicians in the west are not making clear how the Jihad strategy is working. Not sure how it would play out in the court of public opinion, but it can’t be any worse that the ‘clash of civilisations’ narrative, which incidentally the Arab Spring is proving so wrong.
        
        Pascal's bookie …
        
        6 May 2011 at 8:26 pm
        
        but it can’t be any worse that the ‘clash of civilisations’ narrative, which incidentally the Arab Spring is proving so wrong.
        
        Great point!
        
        I often think, looking at how the US speaks about the conflict, that it is being fought mainly for domestic reasons. It gets used as a prop in the internal battle over what the US is, and much of the propaganda is aimed more at getting victories in that fight than in the, err, other one.
        
        joe90 …
        
        6 May 2011 at 9:40 pm
        
        in that fight
        
        I take it that you’re referring to this fight.
        
        btw, the book is free.
        
        rosy …
        
        6 May 2011 at 9:59 pm
        
        Yes, I’ve always thought that the clash of civilisations narrative is to unite the disunited states under, at the time, Bush. All wrapped in the flag of rabid patriotism. A trick that has been used for eons and the public still falls for it. Everywhere.
        
        joe90 …
        
        6 May 2011 at 8:13 pm
        
        Fascinating PB, thanks.
        
        ianmac …
        
        6 May 2011 at 9:13 pm
        
        The $4k program would actually have played into the hands of unscrupulous USA politicians. “You see folks? We are under threat. You must get used to more powers for Homeland security because there is much to fear, fear, fear. And who knows your subjection gives me more power!”
    - ianmac 20.1.1.3
      
      6 May 2011 at 7:23 pm
      
      Damn . I wrote a fulsome reply to that Pete and it vanished.
      Summary. Read years ago about bin Laden’s early road-building life for his adopted Afghanistan.
      His fight against Russia for USA. The oil pipeline USA was blocked from having across Afghanistan. Bin Laden the Freedom fighter for USA becomes named as a terrorist. 9/11 carried out mostly by Saudis from whom bin Laden had been long since disengaged. 3,000 innocents killed. Iraq lost hundreds of thousands of innocents but they were just collateral. Have to accept bin Laden had a hand in 9/11 but never know now because they killed him. USA invades Afghanistan. Pipeline built by USA for USA. bin Laden the focus of the rhetoric. Hated universally.
      Like most people bin Laden was a mixture of good and bad. His good stuff is forgotten. His bad stuff is evil by Western standards. Would USA have found another excuse to invade Iraq/Afghanistan if not bin Laden? Probably. Should he have been brought to trial .Yes. Should G W Bush be brought to trial for the same reasons? Yes.
      Christian, Islam arguments are eternal and usually hopeless.
      
      Try bin Laden in an International Court and it would be clearer.
      Am I glad that he was killed in such a way? No.
      Was he a freedom fighter? In many ways yes.
      Was he responsible for terrorist acts? So they tell me.
      Did he believe in what he was doing? Yep. Was he right to do all that he has done. Dunno.
      Was he better/worse than many other Leaders? What do you think?
      - PeteG 20.1.1.3.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 7:55 pm
        
        Thanks Ian. I agree or don’t disagree with much of this but with a bit of a different slant to some things.
        
        He may have freedom fighting in mind at times but it was a very narrow freedom that was destructive or repressive for many people.
        He has claimed responsibility for 9/11.
        I’m not “glad” he was killed in that way but I’m not sorry that he’s dead.
        I don’t think he was “right” to do what he has done, in the main he was a murdering bastard, like Hitler (who also did good things for Germany and many Germans).
        
        Actually he wasn’t a freedom fighter or murdering bastard, he got others to do his dirty work.
        
        Colonial Viper 20.1.1.3.1.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 8:22 pm
        
        Actually he wasn’t a freedom fighter or murdering bastard, he got others to do his dirty work.
        
        Pretty sure that Osama has killed his share of Soviet troopers, and done so personally, face to face.
        
        NickS …
        
        6 May 2011 at 9:31 pm
        
        Nyet.
        
        In Steve Coll’s book Ghost Wars Osama’s personal fighting experience was apparently limited to one battle, where his base of operations at the time was attacked directly by the Soviets. Osama was primarily a strategist, funder and Islamic scholar and aside from that one battle he staid out of the firing lines encamped along the Afghan-Pakistan borders for most of the USSR occupation of Afghanistan, where the Arab volunteers, arms and money from the Pakistani’s and the Gulf States streamed across the border.
        
        Puddleglum …
        
        6 May 2011 at 10:45 pm
        
        Hi NickS,
        
        Jason Burke obviously disagrees with Steve Coll – see point 5
        
        NickS …
        
        6 May 2011 at 11:05 pm
        
        Forgot about the second battle 😛
        Thanks.
        
        Though I think Burke’s wrong about the arms and training supplies, but since I no longer have Ghost Wars on me, I can’t check that one out…
        
        What’s more interesting though is the veracity of prior reports on Bin Laden’s health per his kidney problems, as general word from the media was that he needed dialysis. But if his renal issues weren’t major as Burke claims, then drugs would probably easily deal with it and mean Bin Laden could far more easily hide.
        
        ianmac 20.1.1.3.1.2
        
        6 May 2011 at 8:55 pm
        
        PeteG @ 7:55 Like G W Bush? Would a person foreign to USA be justified in slipping into the country and killing the President for the distant killings that he authorised?
        
        PeteG …
        
        6 May 2011 at 9:10 pm
        
        I don’t know if justified is the right word (it could be) but I think it would at least be understandable. I’m aware the US is seen as an invading country by many Iraqis and Afghanis (I sort of accepted going into Afghanistan but was totally against the Iraqi invasion).
        
        It’s totally unjustified when the target it is a bunch of innocent people in a couple of skyscrapers.
        
        Andrew Geddis touches on some of this here.
        
        rosy …
        
        6 May 2011 at 9:49 pm
        
        Yes I too accepted that the US had a right to chase OBL down in Afganistan, but had no right whatsover to go into Iraq. That is not the same as saying I agree with how the US handled their operation in Afganistan.
        
        I’m totally in agreement with Andrew Geddis.
        
        Vicky32 …
        
        6 May 2011 at 10:02 pm
        
        Oh Pete, why is it that you and, it seems almost everyone else in this country, main stream media, woman in the street, man in the takeaway bar takes it for granted that OBL was, as the media keep saying “the architect of 9/11”?
        It’s a ‘popular misconception’ that he took responsibility.
        
        PeteG …
        
        6 May 2011 at 11:04 pm
        
        The US and UK governments and OBL himself claim he is responsible.
        
        The Terrorist Threat Confronting the United States
        The evidence linking Al-Qaeda and Bin Laden to the attacks of September 11 is clear and irrefutable.
        
        RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE TERRORIST ATROCITIES IN THE UNITED STATES, 11 SEPTEMBER 2001
        . The clear conclusions reached by the government are:
        Usama Bin Laden and Al Qaida, the terrorist network which he heads, planned and carried out the atrocities on 11 September 2001;
        
        Osama claims responsibility for 9/11
        Al Qaeda terrorist network leader Osama bin Laden said in an audiotape broadcast by the Al Jazeera satellite channel that he himself had assigned 19 people for the Sep 11, 2001, attacks in the US.
        
        Bin Laden claims responsibility for 9/11
        Al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden appeared in a new message aired on an Arabic TV station Friday night, for the first time claiming direct responsibility for the 2001 attacks against the United States.
        
        The Voice of Reason …
        
        6 May 2011 at 11:12 pm
        
        Wikipedia beg to differ:
        
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_for_the_September_11_attacks
        
        ianmac …
        
        6 May 2011 at 11:51 pm
        
        Interesting VOR. We have to trust (?) that the Intelligence Agencies got it right in blaming bin Laden – unless there were compelling reasons to have a focus on one person especially one associated with Afghanistan – oil pipeline and all that.
        And quite possible for bin Laden to claim responsibility after the fact for motives of his own. Pity he can’t be questioned by someone who could be trusted.
William Joyce 21

6 May 2011 at 6:34 pm

Not wanting to get into what Hone said or didn’t say, or whether US foreign policy is good or bad, or if he received justice or was illegally executed…..
The idea that Osama was a freedom fighter is a misuse of the term. He was not fighting for democracy, the right of women to vote, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and so many other forms of self-determination.
He “war” was a war of religion and the only politics that interested him were those associated with his religious goals.
He fought for the freedom to practice religion, but only his religion.
He fought for the freedom to practice Islam and only his form of Islam.
He fought for the freedom to remove the infidel from “Muslim lands” and would ultimately want them gone from all lands.
He fought for the freedom to “remove” all Muslim “compromisers”, all those who did not follow his form of Islam.
He fought for the freedom to eliminate the infidel from the world either through conversion or the sword.

It is wrong, and ill informed, to label him a freedom fighter.
- Colonial Viper 21.1
  
  6 May 2011 at 6:45 pm
  
  Actually, Bin Laden fought to free Afghanistan and her people from an oppressive occupying foreign military superpower* which had invaded his adopted homeland. So yeah, Osama was definitely and definitively a Freedom Fighter of the day.
  
  *Not the USA.
  - William Joyce 21.1.1
    
    6 May 2011 at 6:58 pm
    
    The infidels were in a Muslim land.
    If the situation had been such you would have seen that he was not fighting for the right of self-determination for Afghans. After the Russians left, if the Afghans had voted en masse to establish a secular state with freedom of religion you would have seen OBL fighting that democratic Afghan state instead.
    But that was never tested by circumstances/history so people make the mistake of thinking he was fighting for the freedom of Afghanistan.
    - Colonial Viper 21.1.1.1
      
      6 May 2011 at 7:09 pm
      
      I’m sorry William, but Freedom Fighters don’t have to fight for the United State’s ideals of democracy, self determination and freedom. They fight for their own ideals and values.
      
      Even if the United States trained and armed them anyway because it was convenient to US foreign policy at the time.
      - William Joyce 21.1.1.1.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 7:21 pm
        
        Well, CV, the ideas of democracy, self-determination, freedom etc pre-date the US and are not owned by the US.
        Just because the US spout these ideas (and then don’t live up to them) does not make them American.
        “They fight for their own ideals and values.” – you missed my point. It is quite possible that he would have opposed them if their “own ideals and values.” disagreed with his.
        He would not have sanctioned them having the freedom to choose things he did not agree with. Therefore, he was not fighting for freedom. Therefore, he was not a Freedom Fighter.
        
        Colonial Viper 21.1.1.1.1.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 7:25 pm
        
        Well, call him whatever you want then, but I distinctly recall Reagan calling his bunch Freedom Fighters. Fighting against an oppressive dictatorial foreign Communist state.
        
        rosy 21.1.1.1.1.2
        
        6 May 2011 at 8:12 pm
        
        He would not have sanctioned them having the freedom to choose things he did not agree with. Therefore, he was not fighting for freedom. Therefore, he was not a Freedom Fighter.
        
        Agree. And his habit of moving into failed or divided states for protection and influence pretty much proves it. Especially supporting and supported by the repressive Taliban that did not have support of the country outside of what they could hold with terror, and his move to Sudan. That was also the US biggest mistake with the Iraq war – creating another failed state for AQ to do more dirty work – note the Sunni/Shia divide here that also show there was no sanctioning of freedoms.
        
        btw: Ianmac I don’t know how you can say you dunno if he was right to do all that he has done. The US is wrong to blow up thousands of innocents and destroy nations for a bigger political objective and so was Osama.
        
        ianmac …
        
        6 May 2011 at 8:33 pm
        
        Yes Rosy. How would the World react if a force swept into USA and assassinated their President as the perpetrator of those crimes? Would you say it was right to kill the President?
        
        rosy …
        
        6 May 2011 at 10:07 pm
        
        No, I would say it’s wrong to kill the president, just like I can say it was wrong to kill OBL.
        
        But that’s not the point – the point was you said you don’t know if OBL was right to do all the things he’s done. I can’t see how there is any doubt that his killing of innocents is wrong – WTC, London, Madrid and the rest. Wrong. End of. Murder is wrong no matter who does it and for whatever reason. I guess that’s just how I think, I’m not going to argue it.
    - Pascal's bookie 21.1.1.2
      
      6 May 2011 at 7:20 pm
      
      Just saying, but there is absolutely no reason to believe that Afghans would vote en masse to establish a secular state with freedom of religion.
      - Colonial Viper 21.1.1.2.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 7:23 pm
        
        Americans have a bad habit of not recognising democratically elected governments if they are unfriendly.
        
        In the US value system, being democratic is totally optional. But being friendly to the US is totally necessary.
      - William Joyce 21.1.1.2.2
        
        6 May 2011 at 7:26 pm
        
        @PB : Absolutely, of course not, not in a month of Sundays.
        
        Pascal's bookie 21.1.1.2.2.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 7:29 pm
        
        So what are we for? Self determination?
        
        William Joyce …
        
        6 May 2011 at 8:03 pm
        
        Just for clarity, I started my post with….
        “Not wanting to get into what Hone said or didn’t say, or whether US foreign policy is good or bad, or if he received justice or was illegally executed…..”
        Can I add to that
        – I am making no statement (at least not now) about whether western ideas of freedom are good or bad.
        – I am making no statement (at least not now) about what Afghanistan (whatever that means given it’s composition) should do or not do regarding any of those values.
        I am merely pointing out the contradiction of calling someone a freedom fighter who was not interested in providing freedom.
        As I state below, the best we can say about him is that he fought for the liberation of Afghanistan from a Soviet invasion.
- rosy 21.2
  
  6 May 2011 at 6:53 pm
  
  Well said William Joyce. He may have been a freedom fighter once upon a time, but he resigned from that role a long, long time ago.
- ianmac 21.3
  
  6 May 2011 at 7:36 pm
  
  William” “The idea that Osama was a freedom fighter is a misuse of the term.”
  The freedoms that you list are your view of what freedoms you think should be and suggests that other people are bad if they don’t subscribe to them.
  Freedom could be just the right of a person or group to have self-determination about how they do anything. If someone especially those outside your country tries to impose a different belief system then you might fight for freedom is to protect your beliefs.
  If some one tries to tell your country that your women must dress in certain ways, or worship in certain ways or have a different justice system, I imagine you would want to fight them to defend your way.
  On reflection the things you list above would be good to fight for for those who are passionate about their beliefs.
  Off to buy my fish and chips.
  - William Joyce 21.3.1
    
    6 May 2011 at 7:50 pm
    
    Ianmac, instead of reading day old news around your fish and chips, read a book on how to make an argument. (Then try reading comprehension).
    You will find that I did not promote those “ideals”. So my personal beliefs about them are not the issue nor was I suggesting that Afghanistan should adopt them. Understand?
    Freedom involves the right to choose. I used examples of what the west describe as freedoms to show instances of the sort of things that OBL would not have been happy with. And should Afghanistan have chosen (which they probably wouldn’t) then he would have opposed the choice of the Afghan people and therefore their freedom to choose. Therefore he was not fighting for freedom.
    At best he could be described as fighting for the liberation of Afghanistan from the Soviet occupation. To claim more than that misses his motivation.
    I hope the fish and chips were nice.
    - Carol 21.3.1.1
      
      6 May 2011 at 8:19 pm
      
      Philosophy 101: “Freedom” means nothing as a word on its own. It can mean “freedom from xxxx” or “freedom to xxxxx”. So WJ, you are just using the notion of “freedom” in a very specific way and with meanings it has in a very specific cultural context.
      - William Joyce 21.3.1.1.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 9:15 pm
        
        Absolutely Carol.
        I was not discussing freedom as some ethereal, abstract concept, in the way that it falls so readily off the lips of Americans, without definitions or conditions. [“Even in freedom there is no freedom” – please discuss for Phil 101 midterm :-)]
        The use of the term freedom fighter infers some one who is fighting for the freedom to choose X or Y. They would not have been truly to chose either X or Y IF either X or Y was against his wishes.
        If (X AND “OBL doesn’t allow X”) then Y, else Y
        – also Philosophy 101.
        All OBL was doing was fighting for is the removal of one form of unchosen government for another form of unchosen government.
        
        Carol 21.3.1.1.1.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 9:23 pm
        
        Or, William, it can mean fighting for freedom from a specific kind of repression or government. Your focus on “choice” is just one form, while you don’t rate the other freedom from. But that indicates your western cultural values. Also the focus on freedom to choose suggests western individualistic values too. For some people freedom might mean freedom to eat regularly as supplied to them by a fairly autocratic government that chooses for them what they will eat.
        
        William Joyce …
        
        6 May 2011 at 10:15 pm
        
        Well, food for thought, Carol.
        Again to labour the Phil 101 theme, perhaps we are constrained by language here. A fighter who “frees from” one oppression only to replace it with another is just a “steward” on a slave ship who has given you a window seat.
        Perhaps I will have to accept that to everyone else FF is just inadequate short hand for “a person who liberates a people group from one form of oppression, regardless of whether that person goes on to institute another form of oppression”.
        I guess, all I can say is that I won’t dignify the man with the phrase freedom fighter anymore than I will call John Key an advocate for the poor.
    - ianmac 21.3.1.2
      
      6 May 2011 at 8:47 pm
      
      William. I was not really trying to make an argument and yes the f&c were excellent; very crisp and fresh.
      I was really just considering the idea of freedom and what it means depending on where you stand. Abortion is a crime in some eyes. Abortion is a rightful freedom in the eyes of others. So deciding on just where the right to be a freedom fighter is so hard to be sure right/wrong, I was just musing rather that setting up an argument.
      What bin Laden did early on was more than building roads and fighting Russians then fighting Americans. But it was a long time since my fish and chips had any print on it at all, so I would have to go back and read a book to develop credible info.
      Anyway your question about freedom fighters was food for thought, without the salt.
      
      Had another thought. Do you think that there is a pattern? Do those who support right leaning ideas have more or less support for the rightness of killing bin Laden, compared to social democratic left leaning folk?
      How about for Freedom Fighting?
      - William Joyce 21.3.1.2.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 9:47 pm
        
        Glad the F&C were good 🙂
        “considering the idea of freedom and what it means depending on where you stand.” – As I see it, freedom has nothing to do with where you stand. Where you stand, as you put it, is a matter of perspective and is all about what you see to be true.
        Freedom is about the room to move with regard that belief without facing adverse consequences.
        I think you are right in seeing a pattern. It’s like the debate over anthro. climate, etc. Which is a shame because it causes people to take up positions, not based on reason but who they identify with. That identity can be influenced by education and the schools of thought you were educated in.
        Perhaps I have not been educated in the right schools of thought that would call someone who would force a group of people to conform to his will a freedom fighter. It just seems incongruous to me.
- Puddleglum 21.4
  
  6 May 2011 at 8:12 pm
  
  Sorry William, but this just doesn’t hold together as an argument.
  
  If freedom means anything in a political sense, it is the right of a people to determine their own path without the interference of another people. If the path they ‘determine’ by their internal processes is, from the outside, a path that limits freedom of the individual that in no way bears on whether at the political level their initial fight with occupiers was for their freedom.
  
  As any classical liberal will tell you (at the individual level) freedom may not be used well, but it remains freedom.
  
  You’re confusing a notion of ‘freedom’ cast in relation to the behaviour of individuals with the usual notion of freedom that is cast at the political, social level. The latter is why we talk about “free, sovereign states” to distinguish them from ‘dependencies’, ‘colonies’, etc.. The phrase ‘freedom fighter’ is always – and certainly in this context – referring to this latter level. It’s got nothing to do with the relative freedom of individuals within a “free, sovereign state”.
  - PeteG 21.4.1
    
    6 May 2011 at 8:25 pm
    
    If freedom means anything in a political sense, it is the right of a people to determine their own path without the interference of another people.
    
    It gets complicated when a minority (or maybe a majority) of a people take control and oppress (or worse) some of the people. Nazi Germany is a prime example.
    - ianmac 21.4.1.1
      
      6 May 2011 at 9:37 pm
      
      24.4.1 Like NAct doing the poor and dispossessed?
  - Puddleglum 21.4.2
    
    6 May 2011 at 8:26 pm
    
    Another way I could make the same point is to note that places like Hong Kong (and its people), under British rule, was not free.
    
    Nevertheless, so far as I’m aware, individuals in Hong Kong’s population enjoyed relatively high levels of personal freedom. But, as a people, they were not free – they were ruled by Britain (i.e., by another people – who, themselves, may, at the individual level have been more or less free than individuals in Hong Kong). Someone who was fighting for the independence of Hong Kong from Britain would have been a ‘freedom fighter’, even if the kind of free state they wanted would reintroduce the binding of women’s feet.
    - ianmac 21.4.2.1
      
      6 May 2011 at 8:50 pm
      
      Great reads thanks Puddlegum. Do you think bin Laden could be regarded as a freedom fighter? Could his friends and family have regarded him so?
    - William Joyce 21.4.2.2
      
      6 May 2011 at 9:58 pm
      
      Ok, I get the distinction between the two levels and therefore “Someone who was fighting for the independence of Hong Kong from Britain would have been a ‘freedom fighter’”.
      But the phrase infers a nobility of cause and action. This was witnessed by the reaction of so many to what they think Hone said. So to use it to refer to a person who would fight one power to “free” a country so that it can be subject to another imposed regime is not what people would understand as a freedom fighter. If this is some specialized jargon phrase that means something different to the words it uses them obviously I have it wrong.
      - wtl 21.4.2.2.1
        
        7 May 2011 at 9:33 am
        
        FFS, all this argument about the precise meaning of ‘freedom fighter’ is utterly pointless since Harawira never actually said ‘freedom fighter’ . He was speaking Maori, not English. The argument should be about meaning of the Maori words used, not the the meaning of the words used in someone’s English translation.
        
        Colonial Viper 21.4.2.2.1.1
        
        7 May 2011 at 11:16 am
        
        True.
joe90 22

6 May 2011 at 7:13 pm

The Battle for Tora Bora

How Osama bin Laden slipped from our grasp: The definitive account.
weka 23

7 May 2011 at 11:00 am

Does anyone have a direct link to the original Harawira video? The ones in the post are now out of date and I can’t find the interview on TVNZ.
- weka 23.1
  
  7 May 2011 at 11:05 am
  
  Found the excerpt on Stuff, but would still like to see the whole interview if anyone has the direct link to the specific Te Karere episode.
  
  http://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/local-news/national-news/4964292/Harawira-honours-bin-Laden-as-freedom-fighter
weka 24

7 May 2011 at 11:30 am

Here’s a transcript from the Stuff excerpt of the Te Karare interview. I agree with what was said by an earlier commenter, that this is an English subtitle version of sentiments being expressed originally in Maori. With my limited understanding of te reo I’d say that the subtitles are a simplified version.

TK: First your thoughts on the death of Osama bin Laden.

HH: It is custom for Maori to honour and mourn the deceased, so I acknowledge him and bid him farewell. Return to your ancestors who wait for you beyond the veil of death.

TK: We have heard nothing but negative things about him from the Americans, but he fought for self-determination of his people and for his beliefs.

HH: Indeed, despite what the media has said, his family, his tribe, his people are in mourning. They mourn for the man who fought for the rights, the lands and the freedom of his people. We should not damn them in death, but acknowledge the positive aspects of life.
- PeteG 24.1
  
  7 May 2011 at 12:02 pm
  
  I’m happy to damn OBL in death. He was responsible for the deaths of many innocent people.
  - weka 24.1.1
    
    7 May 2011 at 12:20 pm
    
    You’re entitled to your own personal beliefs about what is an appropriate response to someone’s death. What’s at issue is why so many kiwis don’t want to learn about Maori beliefs about what is appropriate. And why they’re not free to express them.
    - PeteG 24.1.1.1
      
      7 May 2011 at 12:33 pm
      
      They are free to express them. And they have to accept the consequences if they want to try and attract a party vote.
      
      From what I’ve seen there are varying opinions on what is appropriate and what Maori beliefs are on it. Harawira and Walker seem a minority even amongst Maori on that (and it’s notable that Harawira saw fit to offer an apology). Not just competing MPs like Jones and Henare, but also online commentators like Joshua Hitchcock, and Morgan Godfery who said:
      
      “I have no problem with Hone’s view that Maori respect the dead. But respect falls short of homage. I am really, really disappointed that Hone has made this mistake. ”
      
      And
      
      “Angry, arrogant Harawira may be gone, but stupid Harawira is still with us.”
      - Colonial Viper 24.1.1.1.1
        
        7 May 2011 at 12:46 pm
        
        From what I’ve seen there are varying opinions on what is appropriate and what Maori beliefs are on it.
        
        That’s because Maori language and traditions can vary greatly even across different parts of the same iwi.
      - weka 24.1.1.1.2
        
        7 May 2011 at 1:45 pm
        
        “They are free to express them. ”
        
        I’m not sure they are. If Maori are consistently misquoted and misrepresented in the MSM, they’re not really free to express their beliefs and world views without negative repercussions. By negative repercussions I’m not talking about people disagreeing with them or condeming them. I’m talking about their words and views being so distorted that the people that end up judging them don’t know what they are judging. Also, if non-Maori won’t make the effort to understand Maori world views in context, then they don’t have the right to make judgements. What we’re seeing this week is just more of the same old racism that’s endemic here thanks to the MSM.
        
        “Not just competing MPs like Jones and Henare, but also online commentators like Joshua Hitchcock, and Morgan Godfery who said:”
        
        So? Are you saying that Harawira is wrong, that his statements in the above transcript don’t reflect a Maori world view just because some people disagree with him?
        
        Besides, how do you know that any of the people you’ve seen commenting have heard what Harawira actually said as opposed to what the Herald etc said he said? Two very different things.
        
        The thing that pisses me off about this situation is that Harawira should have been free to say what he wants and let his comments stand, and then the people that disagree could have had an interesting debate about the different world views at play here, why Maori see the world the way they do and have the protocols and responses they do. They’re not actually as radical as the MSM are making out. The problem is that we are still unable as a society to have a conversation that includes intelligent understanding of things Maori. That is the real shame this week.
        
        PeteG 24.1.1.1.2.1
        
        7 May 2011 at 2:15 pm
        
        If Maori are consistently misquoted and misrepresented in the MSM,
        
        It’s not just Maori that think they are misquoted and misrepresented if they are reported in the MSM, most people don’t see reports on them as they wished.
        
        Also, if non-Maori won’t make the effort to understand Maori world views in context, then they don’t have the right to make judgements.
        
        If Hone doesn’t want to make the effort to understand voter response to whatever he chooses to say then he won’t get votes. Non-Maori (and Maori) can choose what they want to understand, or not. Most of the public don’t and won’t take their time – especially those who currently don’t vote, they ones that Harawira and Sykes are hoping will give them a party vote. They have to earn votes, not expect the disillusioned to take the time to see things the Mana way.
        
        Mana is earned, not a chosen label.

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ACT would like to dictate what universities can and can’t say. We knew it was coming. It was outlined in the coalition agreement and has become part of Seymour’s strategy of “emphasising public funding” to prevent people from opposing him and his views—something he also uses to try and de-platform ...

Sapphi’s SubstackBy Sapphi

14 hours ago
Fact brief – Are we heading into an ‘ice age’?

Skeptical Science is partnering with Gigafact to produce fact briefs — bite-sized fact checks of trending claims. This fact brief was written by Sue Bin Park from the Gigafact team in collaboration with members from our team. You can submit claims you think need checking via the tipline. Are we heading ...

Skeptical Science

1 day ago
As Our Power Lessens: Published

So the Solstice has arrived – Summer in this part of the world, Winter for the Northern Hemisphere. And with it, the publication my new Norse dark-fantasy piece, As Our Power Lessens at Eternal Haunted Summer: https://eternalhauntedsummer.com/issues/winter-solstice-2024/as-our-power-lessens/ As previously noted, this one is very ‘wyrd’, and Northern Theory of Courage. ...

A Phuulish FellowBy strda221

1 day ago
By Any Other Name.

The Natural Choice: As a starter for ten percent of the Party Vote, “saving the planet” is a very respectable objective. Young voters, in particular, raised on the dire (if unheeded) warnings of climate scientists, and the irrefutable evidence of devastating weather events linked to global warming, vote Green. After ...

Bowalley Road

1 day ago
Bernard’s last Saturday Soliloquy for 2024

The Government cancelled 60% of Kāinga Ora’s new builds next year, even though the land for them was already bought, the consents were consented and there are builders unemployed all over the place. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāMōrena. Long stories short, the six things that mattered in Aotearoa’s political ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

2 days ago
Bernard’s Picks ‘n’ Mixes for Saturday, December 21

Photo by CHUTTERSNAP on UnsplashEvery morning I get up at 3am to go around the traps of news sites in Aotearoa and globally. I pick out the top ones from my point of view and have been putting them into my Dawn Chorus email, which goes out with a podcast. ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

2 days ago
2024 OIA stats

Over on Kikorangi Newsroom's Marc Daalder has published his annual OIA stats. So I thought I'd do mine: 82 OIA requests sent in 2024 7 posts based on those requests 20 average working days to receive a response Ministry of Justice was my most-requested entity, ...

No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant

2 days ago
Climate Change: A perverse incentive

The government published its first Biennial Transparency Report under the Paris Agreement yesterday, and the media has correctly noted that it is missing any plan to actually meet our target. While it hypes domestic emissions reductions so far - which have been good, but will likely get worse thanks to ...

No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant

2 days ago
Economic Bulletin December 2024

Welcome to the December 2024 Economic Bulletin. We have two monthly features in this edition. In the first, we discuss what the Half Year Economic and Fiscal Update from Treasury and the Budget Policy Statement from the Minister of Finance tell us about the fiscal position and what to ...

NZCTUBy Jack McDonald

2 days ago
NZCTU make submission in opposition to Treaty Principles Bill

The NZCTU Te Kauae Kaimahi have submitted against the controversial Treaty Principles Bill, slamming the Bill as a breach of Te Tiriti o Waitangi and an attack on tino rangatiratanga and the collective rights of Tangata Whenua. “This Bill seeks to legislate for Te Tiriti o Waitangi principles that are ...

NZCTUBy Jack McDonald

2 days ago
ZB’s Power Couple

I don't knowHow to say what's got to be saidI don't know if it's black or whiteThere's others see it redI don't get the answers rightI'll leave that to youIs this love out of fashionOr is it the time of yearAre these words distraction?To the words you want to hearSongwriters: ...

Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel

3 days ago
Austerity thumps GDP most since 1991

Our economy has experienced its worst recession since 1991. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāMōrena. Long stories short, the six things that matter in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and poverty on Friday, December 20 in The Kākā’s Dawn Chorus podcast above and the daily Pick ‘n’ Mix below ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

3 days ago
Weekly Roundup 20-December-2024

Twas the Friday before Christmas and all through the week we’ve been collecting stories for our final roundup of the year. As we start to wind down for the year we hope you all have a safe and happy Christmas and new year. If you’re travelling please be safe on ...

Greater AucklandBy Greater Auckland

3 days ago
The Hoon around the year to December 20, 2024

The podcast above of the weekly ‘Hoon’ webinar for paying subscribers on Thursday night features co-hosts & talking about the year’s news with: on climate. Her book of the year was Tim Winton’s cli-fi novel Juice and she also mentioned Mike Joy’s memoir The Fight for Fresh Water. ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

3 days ago
The baby-boomers’ last gasp

The Government can head off to the holidays, entitled to assure itself that it has done more or less what it said it would do. The campaign last year promised to “get New Zealand back on track.” When you look at the basic promises—to trim back Government expenditure, toughen up ...

PolitikBy Richard Harman

3 days ago
Skeptical Science New Research for Week #51 2024

Open access notables An intensification of surface Earth’s energy imbalance since the late 20th century, Li et al., Communications Earth & Environment: Tracking the energy balance of the Earth system is a key method for studying the contribution of human activities to climate change. However, accurately estimating the surface energy balance ...

Skeptical Science

3 days ago
Join us at 5pm for 2024’s last Hoon

Photo by Mauricio Fanfa on UnsplashKia oraCome and join us for our weekly ‘Hoon’ webinar with paying subscribers to The Kākā for an hour at 5 pm today.Jump on this link on YouTube Livestream for our chat about the week’s news with myself , plus regular guests and , ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

3 days ago
Christmas Gifts: Ageing Boomers, Laurie & Les, Talk Politics.

“Like you said, I’m an unreconstructed socialist. Everybody deserves to get something for Christmas.”“ONE OF THOSE had better be for me!” Hannah grinned, fascinated, as Laurie made his way, gingerly, to the bar, his arms full of gift-wrapped packages.“Of course!”, beamed Laurie. Depositing his armful on the bar-top and selecting ...

Bowalley Road

3 days ago
GDP Figures No Christmas Present for New Zealand

Data released by Statistics New Zealand today showed a significant slowdown in the economy over the past six months, with GDP falling by 1% in September, and 1.1% in June said CTU Economist Craig Renney. “The data shows that the size of the economy in GDP terms is now smaller ...

NZCTUBy Stella Whitfield

3 days ago
Cheeseburgers and Stunt Monkeys

One last thing before I quitI never wanted any moreThan I could fit into my headI still remember every single word you saidAnd all the shit that somehow came along with itStill, there's one thing that comforts meSince I was always caged and now I'm freeSongwriters: David Grohl / Georg ...

Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel

4 days ago
MSD rejecting 220 pleas for food grants each day

Sparse offerings outside a Te Kauwhata church. Meanwhile, the Government is cutting spending in ways that make thousands of hungry children even hungrier, while also cutting funding for the charities that help them. It’s also doing that while winding back new building of affordable housing that would allow parents to ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

4 days ago
The Wing Parties’ Economic Policies.

It is difficult to make sense of the Luxon Coalition Government’s economic management.This end-of-year review about the state of economic management – the state of the economy was last week – is not going to cover the National Party contribution. Frankly, like every other careful observer, I cannot make up ...

PunditBy Brian Easton

4 days ago
Back on Track

This morning I awoke to the lovely news that we are firmly back on track, that is if the scale was reversed.NZ ranks low in global economic comparisonsNew Zealand's economy has been ranked 33rd out of 37 in an international comparison of which have done best in 2024.Economies were ranked ...

Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tūī

4 days ago
Book Review: How Big Things Get Done

This is a guest post by George Weeks, reviewing a book called How Big Things Get Done by Bent Flyvbjerg and Dan Gardner Want to know how to do something big? Ask someone who has done it before! Professor Bent Flyvbjerg has spent his career studying megaprojects. In 2023, ...

Greater AucklandBy Guest Post

4 days ago
Gordon Campbell On Why We Can’t Survive Two More Years Of This

Remember those silent movies where the heroine is tied to the railway tracks or going over the waterfall in a barrel? Finance Minister Nicola Willis seems intent on portraying herself as that damsel in distress. According to Willis, this country’s current economic problems have all been caused by the spending ...

WerewolfBy ScoopEditor

4 days ago
Dragging our way towards the finish line, the end of this year can’t come soon enough for many…

Similar to the cuts and the austerity drive imposed by Ruth Richardson in the 1990’s, an era which to all intents and purposes we’ve largely fiddled around the edges with fixing in the time since – over, to be fair, several administrations – whilst trying our best it seems to ...

exhALANtBy exhalantblog

4 days ago
Handling Democracy.

String-Pulling in the Dark: For the democratic process to be meaningful it must also be public. WITH TRUST AND CONFIDENCE in New Zealand’s politicians and journalists steadily declining, restoring those virtues poses a daunting challenge. Just how daunting is made clear by comparing the way politicians and journalists treated New Zealanders ...

Bowalley Road

4 days ago
Open letter to the Minister of Dwindling Finances

Dear Nicola Willis, thank you for letting us know in so many words that the swingeing austerity hasn't worked.By in so many words I mean the bit where you said, Here is a sea of red ink in which we are drowning after twelve months of savage cost cutting and ...

More Than A FeildingBy David Slack

4 days ago
Open Government: The joke ends

The Open Government Partnership is a multilateral organisation committed to advancing open government. Countries which join are supposed to co-create regular action plans with civil society, committing to making verifiable improvements in transparency, accountability, participation, or technology and innovation for the above. And they're held to account through an Independent ...

No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant

4 days ago
An unusual sort of press conference

Today I tuned into something strange: a press conference that didn’t make my stomach churn or the hairs on the back of my neck stand on end. Which was strange, because it was about the torture of children. It was the announcement by Erica Stanford — on her own, unusually ...

Sapphi’s SubstackBy Sapphi

4 days ago
This substack has talked about this government’s seeming corruption & pro-corporate issues...

This is a must watch, and puts on brilliant and practical display the implications and mechanics of fast-track law corruption and weakness.CLICK HERE: LINK TO WATCH VIDEO Our news media as it is set up is simply not equipped to deal with the brazen disinformation and corruption under this right wing ...

Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tūī

4 days ago
NZCTU: Minister needs to listen to the evidence on engineered stone ban

NZCTU Te Kauae Kaimahi Acting Secretary Erin Polaczuk is welcoming the announcement from Minister of Workplace Relations and Safety Brooke van Velden that she is opening consultation on engineered stone and is calling on her to listen to the evidence and implement a total ban of the product. “We need ...

NZCTUBy Stella Whitfield

4 days ago
Wednesday 18 December

The Government has announced a 1.5% increase in the minimum wage from 1 April 2025, well below forecast inflation of 2.5%. Unions have reacted strongly and denounced it as a real terms cut. PSA and the CTU are opposing a new round of staff cuts at WorkSafe, which they say ...

NZCTUBy Jack McDonald

4 days ago
Can the government change its mind on the ferries?

The decision to unilaterally repudiate the contract for new Cook Strait ferries is beginning to look like one of the stupidest decisions a New Zealand government ever made. While cancelling the ferries and their associated port infrastructure may have made this year's books look good, it means higher costs later, ...

No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant

4 days ago
Notes from Afar: Will Luxon Attend Waitangi Day? And Opposition Calls Out Nicola Willis for “C...

Hi there! I’ve been overseas recently, looking after a situation with a family member. So apologies if there any less than focused posts! Vanuatu has just had a significant 7.3 earthquake. Two MFAT staff are unaccounted for with local fatalities.It’s always sad to hear of such things happening.I think of ...

Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tūī

5 days ago
Member’s morning

Today is a special member's morning, scheduled to make up for the government's theft of member's days throughout the year. First up was the first reading of Greg Fleming's Crimes (Increased Penalties for Slavery Offences) Amendment Bill, which was passed unanimously. Currently the House is debating the third reading of ...

No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant

5 days ago
Going Backwards

We're going backwardsIgnoring the realitiesGoing backwardsAre you counting all the casualties?We are not there yetWhere we need to beWe are still in debtTo our insanitiesSongwriter: Martin Gore Read more ...

Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel

5 days ago
Blaming Treasury & Labour, Willis looks for even more Austerity

Willis blamed Treasury for changing its productivity assumptions and Labour’s spending increases since Covid for the worsening Budget outlook. Photo: Getty ImagesMōrena. Long stories short, the six things that matter in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and poverty on Wednesday, December 18 in The Kākā’s Dawn Chorus podcast above ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

5 days ago
December-24 AT Board Meeting

Today the Auckland Transport board meet for the last time this year. For those interested (and with time to spare), you can follow along via this MS Teams link from 10am. I’ve taken a quick look through the agenda items to see what I think the most interesting aspects are. ...

Greater AucklandBy Matt L

5 days ago
The Making of a Mental Health Rockstar

Hi,If you’re a New Zealander — you know who Mike King is. He is the face of New Zealand’s battle against mental health problems. He can be loud and brash. He raises, and is entrusted with, a lot of cash. Last year his “I Am Hope” charity reported a revenue ...

David FarrierBy David Farrier

5 days ago
It could have been worse

Probably about the only consolation available from yesterday’s unveiling of the Half-Yearly Economic and Fiscal Update (HYEFU) is that it could have been worse. Though Finance Minister Nicola Willis has tightened the screws on future government spending, she has resisted the calls from hard-line academics, fiscal purists and fiscal hawks ...

PolitikBy Richard Harman

5 days ago
The Deep Divisions of Local Government

The right have a stupid saying that is only occasionally true:When is democracy not democracy? When it hasn’t been voted on.While not true in regards to branches of government such as the judiciary, it’s a philosophy that probably should apply to recently-elected local government councillors. Nevertheless, this concept seemed to ...

Sapphi’s SubstackBy Sapphi

5 days ago
Willis’ austerity strategy just isn’t working

Long story short: the Government’s austerity policy has driven the economy into a deeper and longer recession that means it will have to borrow $20 billion more over the next four years than it expected just six months ago. Treasury’s latest forecasts show the National-ACT-NZ First Government’s fiscal strategy of ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

5 days ago
Sabin 33 #7 – Are solar projects hurting farmers and rural communities?

On November 1, 2024 we announced the publication of 33 rebuttals based on the report "Rebutting 33 False Claims About Solar, Wind, and Electric Vehicles" written by Matthew Eisenson, Jacob Elkin, Andy Fitch, Matthew Ard, Kaya Sittinger & Samuel Lavine and published by the Sabin Center for Climate Change Law at Columbia ...

Skeptical Science

5 days ago
Join us for a pop-up Hoon at 5pm on HYEFU

Come and join myself and CTU Chief Economist for a pop-up ‘Hoon’ webinar on the Government’s Half Yearly Economic and Fiscal Update (HYEFU) with paying subscribers to The Kākā for 30 minutes at 5 pm today.Jump on this link on YouTube Livestream to watch our chat. Don’t worry if ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

5 days ago
‘Ideas Worth Saving’: A Call for Papers

Some years ago, I found myself pondering the power of literature to endure. Or at least the power of some of it to endure, while the rest vanishes in mere decades: https://phuulishfellow.wordpress.com/2019/08/07/look-on-my-works-ye-mighty-and-despair-the-literary-future/. I have similarly had fun with the subject in some of my short stories, such as Another Alexandria ...

A Phuulish FellowBy strda221

5 days ago
Corrections is torturing prisoners again

In 1998, in the wake of the Paremoremo Prison riot, the Department of Corrections established the "Behaviour Management Regime". Prisoners were locked in their cells for 22 or 23 hours a day, with no fresh air, no exercise, no social contact, no entertainment, and in some cases no clothes and ...

No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant

5 days ago
HYEFU and BPS data shows New Zealand is way off track

New data released by the Treasury shows that the economic policies of this Government have made things worse in the year since they took office, said NZCTU Economist Craig Renney. “Our fiscal indicators are all heading in the wrong direction – with higher levels of debt, a higher deficit, and ...

NZCTUBy Jack McDonald

5 days ago
“Better economic management”

At the 2023 election, National basically ran on a platform of being better economic managers. So how'd that turn out for us? In just one year, they've fucked us for two full political terms: The government's books are set to remain deeply in the red for the near term ...

No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant

5 days ago
Shameless, clueless

AUSTERITYText within this block will maintain its original spacing when publishedMy spreadsheet insists This pain leads straight to glory (File not found) Read more ...

More Than A FeildingBy David Slack

5 days ago
Minimum wage ‘increase’ is an effective cut

The NZCTU Te Kauae Kaimahi are saying that the Government should do the right thing and deliver minimum wage increases that don’t see workers fall further behind, in response to today’s announcement that the minimum wage will only be increased by 1.5%, well short of forecast inflation. “With inflation forecast ...

NZCTUBy Jack McDonald

6 days ago
Crazy ’bout a Sharp-dressed Man

Oh, I weptFor daysFilled my eyesWith silly tearsOh, yeaBut I don'tCare no moreI don't care ifMy eyes get soreSongwriters: Paul Rodgers / Paul Kossoff. Read more ...

Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel

6 days ago
How much should you worry about a collapse of the Atlantic conveyor belt?

This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections by Bob Henson In this aerial view, fingers of meltwater flow from the melting Isunnguata Sermia glacier descending from the Greenland Ice Sheet on July 11, 2024, near Kangerlussuaq, Greenland. According to the Programme for Monitoring of the Greenland Ice Sheet (PROMICE), the ...

Skeptical Science

6 days ago
8% ACT Party Creates One Ring To Rule Them All

In August, I wrote an article about David Seymour 1 with a video of his testimony, to warn that there were grave dangers to his Ministry of Regulation:David Seymour's Ministry of Slush Hides Far Greater RisksWhy Seymour's exorbitant waste of taxpayers' money could be the least of concernThe money for Seymour ...

Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tūī

6 days ago
When austerity worsens public debt & cuts GDP

Willis is expected to have to reveal the bitter fiscal fruits of her austerity strategy in the HYEFU later today. Photo: Lynn Grieveson/TheKakaMōrena. Long stories short, the six things that matter in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and poverty on Tuesday, December 17 in The Kākā’s Dawn Chorus podcast ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

6 days ago
Govt to double number of toll roads

On Friday the government announced it would double the number of toll roads in New Zealand as well as make a few other changes to how toll roads are used in the country. The real issue though is not that tolling is being used but the suggestion it will make ...

Greater AucklandBy Matt L

6 days ago
Luxon’s pre-emptive strike

The Prime Minister yesterday engaged in what looked like a pre-emptive strike designed to counter what is likely to be a series of depressing economic statistics expected before the end of the week. He opened his weekly post-Cabinet press conference with a recitation of the Government’s achievements. “It certainly has ...

PolitikBy Richard Harman

6 days ago
Gordon Campbell On The Coalition’s Empty Gestures, And Abortion Refusal As The New Slavery

This whooping cough story from south Auckland is a good example of the coalition government’s approach to social need – spend money on urging people to get vaccinated but only after you’ve cut the funding to where they could get vaccinated. This has been the case all year with public ...

WerewolfBy ScoopEditor

6 days ago
More public service contempt of parliament

Back in 2023 the New Zealand Council for Civil Liberties raised concerns about the inherent conflict of interest involved in public service agencies supporting parliamentary select committees. Our parliament is run on a shoestring, so depends on the public service for advice. But public service agencies work for Ministers, not ...

No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant

6 days ago
If There Is A God

And if there is a GodI know he likes to rockHe likes his loud guitarsHis spiders from MarsAnd if there is a GodI know he's watching meHe likes what he seesBut there's trouble on the breezeSongwriter: William Patrick Corgan Read more ...

Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel

6 days ago
A Lipstick Government

Here’s a quick round up of today’s political news:1. MORE FOOD BANKS, CHARITIES, DOMESTIC VIOLENCE SHELTERS AND YOUTH SOCIAL SERVICES SET TO CLOSE OR SCALE BACK AROUND THE COUNTRY AS GOVT CUTS FUNDINGSome of Auckland's largest foodbanks are warning they may need to close or significantly reduce food parcels after ...

Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tūī

6 days ago
NZCTU open letter to Treasury on undue restrictions on restricted briefings

Iain Rennie, CNZMSecretary and Chief Executive to the TreasuryDear Secretary, Undue restrictions on restricted briefings This week, the Treasury barred representatives from four organisations, including the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions Te Kauae Kaimahi, from attending the restricted briefing for the Half-Year Economic and Fiscal Update. We had been ...

NZCTUBy Jack McDonald

6 days ago
Why you won’t hear me advocate for electric cars

This is a guest post by Tim Adriaansen, a community, climate, and accessibility advocate. I won’t shut up about climate breakdown, and whenever possible I try to shift the focus of a climate conversation towards solutions. But you’ll almost never hear me give more than a passing nod to ...

Greater AucklandBy Guest Post

7 days ago
Coalition forced to back down on tolling Pahiatua track

A grassroots backlash has forced a backdown from Brown, but he is still eyeing up plenty of tolls for other new roads. And the pressure is on Willis to ramp up the Government’s austerity strategy. Photo: Getty ImagesMōrena. Long stories short, the six things that matter in Aotearoa’s political economy ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

7 days ago
Thank You

Hi all,I'm pretty overwhelmed by all your messages and emails today; thank you so very much.As much as my newsletter this morning was about money, and we all need to earn money, it was mostly about world domination if I'm honest. 😉I really hate what’s happening to our country, and ...

Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel

1 week ago
2024 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #50

A listing of 23 news and opinion articles we found interesting and shared on social media during the past week: Sun, December 8, 2024 thru Sat, December 14, 2024. Listing by Category Like last week's summary this one contains the list of articles twice: based on categories and based on ...

Skeptical Science

1 week ago
Making Gravy

I started writing this morning about Hobson’s Pledge, examining the claims they and their supporters make, basically ripping into them. But I kept getting notifications coming through, and not good ones.Each time I looked up, there was another un-subscription message, and I felt a bit sicker at the thought of ...

Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel

1 week ago
Nothing here but the shadows

Once, long before there was Harry and Meghan and Dodi and all those episodes of The Crown, they came to spend some time with us, Charles and Diana. Was there anyone in the world more glamorous than the Princess of Wales?Dazzled as everyone was by their company, the leader of ...

More Than A FeildingBy David Slack

1 week ago
The United Right: the FSU’s Continued Efforts to Undermine Academia

The collective right have a problem.The entire foundation for their world view is antiscientific. Their preferred economic strategies have been disproven. Their whole neoliberal model faces accusations of corporate corruption and worsening inequality. Climate change not only definitely exists, its rapid progression demands an immediate and expensive response in order ...

Sapphi’s SubstackBy Sapphi

1 week ago
Showing the Americans how to do it

Just ten days ago, South Korea's president attempted a self-coup, declaring martial law and attempting to have opposition MPs murdered or arrested in an effort to seize unconstrained power. The attempt was rapidly defeated by the national assembly voting it down and the people flooding the streets to defend democracy. ...

No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant

1 week ago
2 Men, 1 Haircut

Hi,“What I love about New Zealanders is that sometimes you use these expressions that as Americans we have no idea what those things mean!"I am watching a 30-something year old American ramble on about how different New Zealanders are to Americans. It’s his podcast, and this man is doing a ...

David FarrierBy David Farrier

1 week ago
Chris Penk’s Hate Parade

What Chris Penk has granted holocaust-denier and equal-opportunity-bigot Candace Owens is not “freedom of speech”. It’s not even really freedom of movement, though that technically is the right she has been granted. What he has given her is permission to perform. Freedom of SpeechIn New Zealand, the right to freedom ...

Sapphi’s SubstackBy Sapphi

1 week ago
Tell me a story

All those tears on your cheeksJust like deja vu flow nowWhen grandmother speaksSo tell me a story (I'll tell you a story)Spell it out, I can't hear (What do you want to hear?)Why you wear black in the morning?Why there's smoke in the air? Songwriter: Greg Johnson.Mōrena all ☀️Something a ...

Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel

1 week ago

National’s Greatest Misses 2023-4

National has only been in power for a year, but everywhere you look, its choices are taking New Zealand a long way backwards. In no particular order, here are the National Government's Top 50 Greatest Misses of its first year in power. ...

Labour Blog

2 days ago
Release: Minister’s plan for tertiary sector a backwards step

Returning to the model that was failing for most polytechnics and Institutes of Technology is not the answer. ...

Labour Blog

2 days ago
Release: National buries 1019 planned homes

It’s been revealed that National has cancelled 60 percent of its housing projects planned before mid-2025 amidst housing woes. ...

Labour Blog

3 days ago
Release: Rule-Czar bill a right-wing power grab

The Government is quietly undertaking consultation on the dangerous Regulatory Standards Bill over the Christmas period to avoid too much attention. ...

Labour Blog

3 days ago
Release: Why not both? Luxon shuns Waitangi celebrations

Prime Minister Christopher Luxon is running away from problems of his own creation, with his decision not to go to Waitangi. ...

Labour Blog

3 days ago
Govt’s ‘free speech’ legislation stokes fear, not freedom

The Government’s planned changes to the freedom of speech obligations of universities is little more than a front for stoking the political fires of disinformation and fear, placing teachers and students in the crosshairs. ...

Greens

3 days ago
Release: Nicola Willis spirals country deeper into recession

The economy shrank 1% this quarter and New Zealand has tumbled into the depths of a recession of Nicola Willis’ making. ...

Labour Blog

3 days ago
Release: Hikes for company directors but not ordinary Kiwis

Working people are going backwards while company directors are being given huge pay hikes. ...

Labour Blog

4 days ago
ECE no place to cut corners

The Ministry of Regulation’s report into Early Childhood Education (ECE) in Aotearoa raises serious concerns about the possibility of lowering qualification requirements, undermining quality and risking worse outcomes for tamariki, whānau, and kaiako. ...

Greens

4 days ago
Release: Strengthening Justice Services for New Zealanders

A Bill to modernise the role of Justices of the Peace (JP), ensuring they remain active in their communities and connected with other JPs, has been put into the ballot. ...

Labour Blog

5 days ago
Release: Labour will continue fight against destructive projects

Labour will continue to fight unsustainable and destructive projects that are able to leap-frog environment protection under National’s Fast-track Approvals Bill. ...

Labour Blog

5 days ago
Green Government will revoke dodgy fast-track projects

The Green Party has warned that a Green Government will revoke the consents of companies who override environmental protections as part of Fast-Track legislation being passed today. ...

Greens

5 days ago
Government for the wealthy keeps pushing austerity

The Green Party says the Half Year Economic and Fiscal Update shows how the Government is failing to address the massive social and infrastructure deficits our country faces. ...

Greens

5 days ago
Release: Visa changes let migrant workers be paid less

The Government’s latest move to reduce the earnings of migrant workers will not only hurt migrants but it will drive down the wages of Kiwi workers. ...

Labour Blog

5 days ago
Release: Nightmare before Christmas for Nicola Willis

With more debt and a larger deficit, Nicola Willis’ reputation is in tatters after her failure to return the Government’s books to surplus. ...

Labour Blog

5 days ago
Warning to Fast-Track Applicants – ‘Exploit the Whenua, Face the Consequences’

Te Pāti Māori has this morning issued a stern warning to Fast-Track applicants with interests in mining, pledging to hold them accountable through retrospective liability and to immediately revoke Fast-Track consents under a future Te Pāti Māori government. This warning comes ahead of today’s third reading of the Fast-Track Approvals ...

Māori Party

5 days ago
Release: Govt cuts wages for lowest paid NZers… again

For the second year running, the government has effectively cut wages for the lowest paid workers in New Zealand. ...

Labour Blog

6 days ago
Govt’s miserly 1.5% minimum wage will take workers backwards

The Government’s announcement today of a 1.5 per cent increase to minimum wage is another blow for workers, with inflation projected to exceed the increase, meaning it’s a real terms pay reduction for many. ...

Greens

6 days ago
Release: Govt shirking responsibility for rate hikes

All the Government has achieved from its announcement today is to continue to push responsibility back on councils for its own lack of action to help bring down skyrocketing rates. ...

Labour Blog

6 days ago
Luxon’s ‘localism’ strikes again

The Government has used its final post-Cabinet press conference of the year to punch down on local government without offering any credible solutions to the issues our councils are facing. ...

Greens

6 days ago
Release: Govt breaks promise on EV chargers

The Government has failed to keep its promise to ‘super charge’ the EV network, delivering just 292 chargers - less than half of the 670 chargers needed to meet its target. ...

Labour Blog

6 days ago
Greens call for end to subsidies for Methanex

The Green Party is calling for the Government to stop subsidising the largest user of the country’s gas supplies, Methanex, following a report highlighting the multi-national’s disproportionate influence on energy prices in Aotearoa. ...

Greens

6 days ago
Govt child poverty targets allow for increase in poverty

The Green Party is appalled with the Government’s new child poverty targets that are based on a new ‘persistent poverty’ measure that could be met even with an increase in child poverty. ...

Greens

1 week ago
Release: Four weeks annual leave under threat

The Government’s attack on workers continues with news it is scrapping work on the Holidays Act. ...

Labour Blog

1 week ago
Govt’s emissions plan for measly 1% reduction

New independent analysis has revealed that the Government’s Emissions Reduction Plan (ERP) will reduce emissions by a measly 1 per cent by 2030, failing to set us up for the future and meeting upcoming targets. ...

Greens

1 week ago
Greens stand in solidarity with Whakaata Māori on sad day

The loss of 27 kaimahi at Whakaata Māori and the end of its daily news bulletin is a sad day for Māori media and another step backwards for Te Tiriti o Waitangi justice. ...

Greens

1 week ago
Sanctions regime to create more hardship for families

Yesterday the Government passed cruel legislation through first reading to establish a new beneficiary sanction regime that will ultimately mean more households cannot afford the basic essentials. ...

Greens

1 week ago
Govt gifts renters housing anxiety for Christmas

Today's passing of the Government's Residential Tenancies Amendment Bill–which allows landlords to end tenancies with no reason–ignores the voice of the people and leaves renters in limbo ahead of the festive season. ...

Greens

1 week ago
Release: National Party urged to support modern slavery legislation

Labour is urging the Prime Minister to walk the talk and support legislation combating modern slavery. ...

Labour Blog

2 weeks ago
Release: Labour has lost confidence in the Speaker

The Speaker of the New Zealand Parliament made an unprecedented decision on the government amendment to the Fast Track Approvals Bill last night. ...

Labour Blog

2 weeks ago
One year on, still no progress on new ferries

Today’s announcement from the Government on its plan for new ferries throws more uncertainty on the future of the country’s rail network. ...

Greens

2 weeks ago
Release: Nicola Willis’ smaller ferries will cost more

After wasting a year, Nicola Willis has delivered a worse deal for the Cook Strait ferries that will end up being more expensive and take longer to arrive. ...

Labour Blog

2 weeks ago
Bill to sanction unlawful occupation of Palestine

Green Party co-leader Chlöe Swarbrick has today launched a Member’s Bill to sanction Israel for its unlawful presence in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, as the All Out For Gaza rally reaches Parliament. ...

Greens

2 weeks ago
Release: Labour fully supports greyhound racing ban

The Government has done the right thing in moving to ban greyhound racing. ...

Labour Blog

2 weeks ago
Greyhound racing industry ban marks new era for animal welfare

After years of advocacy, the Green Party is very happy to hear the Government has listened to our collective voices and announced the closure of the greyhound racing industry, by 1 August 2026. ...

Greens

2 weeks ago
Rangatahi voices must be centred in Government’s Relationship and Sexuality Education refresh

In response to a new report from ERO, the Government has acknowledged the urgent need for consistency across the curriculum for Relationship and Sexuality Education (RSE) in schools. ...

Greens

2 weeks ago
Govt introduces archaic anti-worker legislation

The Green Party is appalled at the Government introducing legislation that will make it easier to penalise workers fighting for better pay and conditions. ...

Greens

2 weeks ago
Winston Peters – Kinleith Mill Speech

Thank you for the invitation to speak with you tonight on behalf of the political party I belong to - which is New Zealand First. As we have heard before this evening the Kinleith Mill is proposing to reduce operations by focusing on pulp and discontinuing “lossmaking paper production”. They say that they are currently consulting on the plan to permanently shut ...

NZ First Press Release

2 weeks ago
Swarbrick calls on Auckland Mayor to end delay of revival of St James Theatre

Auckland Central MP, Chlöe Swarbrick, has written to Mayor Wayne Brown requesting he stop the unnecessary delays on St James Theatre’s restoration. ...

Greens

2 weeks ago
He Ara Anamata: Greens launch Emissions Reduction Plan

Today, the Green Party of Aotearoa proudly unveils its new Emissions Reduction Plan–He Ara Anamata–a blueprint reimagining our collective future. ...

Greens

2 weeks ago

Internationally-trained doctors jump at chance to boost health workforce

Health Minister Dr Shane Reti says Health New Zealand will move swiftly to support dozens of internationally-trained doctors already in New Zealand on their journey to employment here, after a tripling of sought-after examination places. “The Medical Council has delivered great news for hardworking overseas doctors who want to contribute ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

14 hours ago
PM appoints business leader to APEC Business Advisory Council

Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has appointed Sarah Ottrey to the APEC Business Advisory Council (ABAC). “At my first APEC Summit in Lima, I experienced firsthand the role that ABAC plays in guaranteeing political leaders hear the voice of business,” Mr Luxon says. “New Zealand’s ABAC representatives are very well respected and ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

2 days ago
New intelligence oversight appointments

Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has announced four appointments to New Zealand’s intelligence oversight functions. The Honourable Robert Dobson KC has been appointed Chief Commissioner of Intelligence Warrants, and the Honourable Brendan Brown KC has been appointed as a Commissioner of Intelligence Warrants. The appointments of Hon Robert Dobson and Hon ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

2 days ago
New housing developments able to progress more quickly

Improvements in the average time it takes to process survey and title applications means housing developments can progress more quickly, Minister for Land Information Chris Penk says. “The government is resolutely focused on improving the building and construction pipeline,” Mr Penk says. “Applications to issue titles and subdivide land are ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

2 days ago
Actions to speed up air travel delivering results

The Government’s measures to reduce airport wait times, and better transparency around flight disruptions is delivering encouraging early results for passengers ahead of the busy summer period, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “Improving the efficiency of air travel is a priority for the Government to give passengers a smoother, more reliable ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

2 days ago
Ending contracted emergency housing in Rotorua

The Government today announced the intended closure of the Apollo Hotel as Contracted Emergency Housing (CEH) in Rotorua, Associate Housing Minister Tama Potaka says. This follows a 30 per cent reduction in the number of households in CEH in Rotorua since National came into Government. “Our focus is on ending CEH in the Whakarewarewa area starting ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

2 days ago
Vocational education and training decisions support return to regions

The Government will reshape vocational education and training to return decision making to regions and enable greater industry input into work-based learning Tertiary Education and Skills Minister, Penny Simmonds says. “The redesigned system will better meet the needs of learners, industry, and the economy. It includes re-establishing regional polytechnics that ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

3 days ago
Reducing the environmental impact of synthetic refrigerants

The Government is taking action to better manage synthetic refrigerants and reduce emissions caused by greenhouse gases found in heating and cooling products, Environment Minister Penny Simmonds says. “Regulations will be drafted to support a product stewardship scheme for synthetic refrigerants, Ms. Simmonds says. “Synthetic refrigerants are found in a ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

3 days ago
Ngāruawāhia section of Waikato Expressway back to 4 lanes for Christmas

People travelling on State Highway 1 north of Hamilton will be relieved that remedial works and safety improvements on the Ngāruawāhia section of the Waikato Expressway were finished today, with all lanes now open to traffic, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says.“I would like to acknowledge the patience of road users ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

3 days ago
Appointments to the ENZ board

Tertiary Education and Skills Minister, Penny Simmonds, has announced a new appointment to the board of Education New Zealand (ENZ). Dr Erik Lithander has been appointed as a new member of the ENZ board for a three-year term until 30 January 2028. “I would like to welcome Dr Erik Lithander to the ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

3 days ago
Government to celebrate Waitangi Day around NZ

The Government will have senior representatives at Waitangi Day events around the country, including at the Waitangi Treaty Grounds, but next year Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has chosen to take part in celebrations elsewhere. “It has always been my intention to celebrate Waitangi Day around the country with different ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

3 days ago
More gangs added to Gangs Act list

Two more criminal gangs will be subject to the raft of laws passed by the Coalition Government that give Police more powers to disrupt gang activity, and the intimidation they impose in our communities, Police Minister Mark Mitchell says. Following an Order passed by Cabinet, from 3 February 2025 the ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

3 days ago
Judicial appointment announced

Attorney-General Judith Collins today announced the appointment of Justice Christian Whata as a Judge of the Court of Appeal. Justice Whata’s appointment as a Judge of the Court of Appeal will take effect on 1 August 2025 and fill a vacancy created by the retirement of Hon Justice David Goddard on ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

3 days ago
GDP data highlights importance of growth

The latest economic figures highlight the importance of the steps the Government has taken to restore respect for taxpayers’ money and drive economic growth, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. Data released today by Stats NZ shows Gross Domestic Product fell 1 per cent in the September quarter. “Treasury and most ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

3 days ago
Strengthening Free Speech in Universities

Tertiary Education and Skills Minister Penny Simmonds and Associate Minister of Education David Seymour today announced legislation changes to strengthen freedom of speech obligations on universities. “Freedom of speech is fundamental to the concept of academic freedom and there is concern that universities seem to be taking a more risk-averse ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
Launch of Emergency Cellular Priority Service

Police Minister, Mark Mitchell, and Internal Affairs Minister, Brooke van Velden, today launched a further Public Safety Network cellular service that alongside last year’s Cellular Roaming roll-out, puts globally-leading cellular communications capability into the hands of our emergency responders. The Public Safety Network’s new Cellular Priority service means Police, Wellington ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
Minister reopens Mangamuka Gorge

State Highway 1 through the Mangamuka Gorge has officially reopened today, providing a critical link for Northlanders and offering much-needed relief ahead of the busy summer period, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says.“The Mangamuka Gorge is a vital route for Northland, carrying around 1,300 vehicles per day and connecting the Far ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
Funding confirmed for second Ashburton Bridge

The Government has welcomed decisions by the NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) and Ashburton District Council confirming funding to boost resilience in the Canterbury region, with construction on a second Ashburton Bridge expected to begin in 2026, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “Delivering a second Ashburton Bridge to improve resilience and ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
Government boosts support for avian influenza response

The Government is backing the response into high pathogenic avian influenza (HPAI) in Otago, Biosecurity Minister Andrew Hoggard says. “Cabinet has approved new funding of $20 million to enable MPI to meet unbudgeted ongoing expenses associated with the H7N6 response including rigorous scientific testing of samples at the enhanced PC3 ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
Levelling the playing field for media advertising

Legislation that will repeal all advertising restrictions for broadcasters on Sundays and public holidays has passed through first reading in Parliament today, Media Minister Paul Goldsmith says. “As a growing share of audiences get their news and entertainment from streaming services, these restrictions have become increasingly redundant. New Zealand on ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
Inspector-General of Defence appointed

Today the House agreed to Brendan Horsley being appointed Inspector-General of Defence, Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith says. “Mr Horsley’s experience will be invaluable in overseeing the establishment of the new office and its support networks. “He is currently Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security, having held that role since June 2020. ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
Fire and Emergency New Zealand final levy rates confirmed

Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden says the Government has agreed to the final regulations for the levy on insurance contracts that will fund Fire and Emergency New Zealand from July 2026. “Earlier this year the Government agreed to a 2.2 percent increase to the rate of levy. Fire ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
More AML relief on the way for Kiwi businesses

The Government is delivering regulatory relief for New Zealand businesses through changes to the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism Act. “The Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism Amendment Bill, which was introduced today, is the second Bill – the other being the Statutes Amendment Bill - that ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
Hawke’s Bay Expressway moving at pace

Transport Minister Simeon Brown has welcomed further progress on the Hawke’s Bay Expressway Road of National Significance (RoNS), with the NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) Board approving funding for the detailed design of Stage 1, paving the way for main works construction to begin in late 2025.“The Government is moving at ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
Government seeks partnerships to plant trees on Crown-owned-land

The Government today released a request for information (RFI) to seeking interest in partnerships to plant trees on Crown-owned land with low farming and conservation value (excluding National Parks) Forestry Minister Todd McClay announced. “Planting trees on Crown-owned land will drive economic growth by creating more forestry jobs in our regions, providing more wood ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
Wide ranging legislation to make justice system more efficient

Court timeliness, access to justice, and improving the quality of existing regulation are the focus of a series of law changes introduced to Parliament today by Associate Minister of Justice Nicole McKee. The three Bills in the Regulatory Systems (Justice) Amendment Bill package each improve a different part of the ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
Diverse skills in community trust appointments

A total of 41 appointments and reappointments have been made to the 12 community trusts around New Zealand that serve their regions, Associate Finance Minister Shane Jones says. “These trusts, and the communities they serve from the Far North to the deep south, will benefit from the rich experience, knowledge, ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
Torture redress for survivors of the Lake Alice Unit

The Government has confirmed how it will provide redress to survivors who were tortured at the Lake Alice Psychiatric Hospital Child and Adolescent Unit (the Lake Alice Unit). “The Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in Care found that many of the 362 children who went through the Lake Alice Unit between 1972 and ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
A busy year in the House

It has been a busy, productive year in the House as the coalition Government works hard to get New Zealand back on track, Leader of the House Chris Bishop says. “This Government promised to rebuild the economy, restore law and order and reduce the cost of living. Our record this ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago
Consultation opens on working with engineered stone

“Accelerated silicosis is an emerging occupational disease caused by unsafe work such as engineered stone benchtops. I am running a standalone consultation on engineered stone to understand what the industry is currently doing to manage the risks, and whether further regulatory intervention is needed,” says Workplace Relations and Safety Minister ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago
Greater reporting on Treaty settlement commitments

Mehemea he pai mō te tangata, mahia – if it’s good for the people, get on with it. Enhanced reporting on the public sector’s delivery of Treaty settlement commitments will help improve outcomes for Māori and all New Zealanders, Māori Crown Relations Minister Tama Potaka says. Compiled together for the ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago
New appointments to the Charities Registration Board

Mr Roger Holmes Miller and Ms Tarita Hutchinson have been appointed to the Charities Registration Board, Community and Voluntary Sector Minister Louise Upston says. “I would like to welcome the new members joining the Charities Registration Board. “The appointment of Ms Hutchinson and Mr Miller will strengthen the Board’s capacity ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago
Building consent processing times improve

More building consent and code compliance applications are being processed within the statutory timeframe since the Government required councils to submit quarterly data, Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk says. “In the midst of a housing shortage we need to look at every step of the build process for efficiencies ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago
Faster access to support through Innovation Fund

Mental Health Minister Matt Doocey is proud to announce the first three recipients of the Government’s $10 million Mental Health and Addiction Community Sector Innovation Fund which will enable more Kiwis faster access to mental health and addiction support. “This fund is part of the Government’s commitment to investing in ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago
New Zealand to assist Vanuatu on earthquake response

New Zealand is providing Vanuatu assistance following yesterday's devastating earthquake, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says. "Vanuatu is a member of our Pacific family and we are supporting it in this time of acute need," Mr Peters says. "Our thoughts are with the people of Vanuatu, and we will be ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago
Government takes steps to reduce card fees for Kiwis

The Government welcomes the Commerce Commission’s plan to reduce card fees for Kiwis by an estimated $260 million a year, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly says.“The Government is relentlessly focused on reducing the cost of living, so Kiwis can keep more of their hard-earned income and live a ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago
Review recommends ECE regulation shakeup

Regulation Minister David Seymour has welcomed the Early Childhood Education (ECE) regulatory review report, the first major report from the Ministry for Regulation. The report makes 15 recommendations to modernise and simplify regulations across ECE so services can get on with what they do best – providing safe, high-quality care ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago
Offshore Renewable Energy Bill passes first reading

The Government‘s Offshore Renewable Energy Bill to create a new regulatory regime that will enable firms to construct offshore wind generation has passed its first reading in Parliament, Energy Minister Simeon Brown says.“New Zealand currently does not have a regulatory regime for offshore renewable energy as the previous government failed ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago
Local Government (Water Services) Bill passes first reading

Legislation to enable new water service delivery models that will drive critical investment in infrastructure has passed its first reading in Parliament, marking a significant step towards the delivery of Local Water Done Well, Local Government Minister Simeon Brown and Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly say.“Councils and voters ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago
Gene Technology Bill passes first reading

New Zealand is one step closer to reaping the benefits of gene technology with the passing of the first reading of the Gene Technology Bill, Science, Innovation and Technology Minister Judith Collins says. "This legislation will end New Zealand's near 30-year ban on gene technology outside the lab and is ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago

Vanuatu quake: Warnings as bad weather threat looms for Port Vila

By Koroi Hawkins, RNZ Pacific editor New Zealand’s Urban Search and Rescue (USAR) says impending bad weather for Port Vila is now the most significant post-quake hazard. A tropical low in the Coral Sea is expected to move into Vanuatu waters, bringing heavy rainfall. Authorities have issued warnings to people ...

Evening ReportBy Asia Pacific Report

53 minutes ago
Signs of the hīkoi: More than just ‘words on cardboard’

The placards seen at the Hīkoi mō Te Tiriti conveyed "huge kōrero with immediacy", expert says: "People know the power of the word." ...

Radio NZ – political

10 hours ago
A final Ode to .. King Luxon

Cosmic CatastropheThe year draws to a close.King Luxon has grown tired of the long eveningsListening to the dreary squabbling of his Triumvirate.He strolls up to the top floor of the PalaceTo consult with his Astronomer Royal.The Royal Telescope scans the skies,And King Luxon stares up into the heavensFrom the terrestrial ...

NewsroomBy Victor Billot

17 hours ago
A hater and an enthusiast review The Royal Free by Carl Shuker

Spinoff editor Mad Chapman and books editor Claire Mabey debate Carl Shuker’s new novel about… an editor. Claire: Hello Mad, you just finished The Royal Free – overall impressions? Mad: Hi Claire, I literally just put the book down and I would have to say my immediate impression is ...

The SpinoffBy Claire Mabey

19 hours ago
Survive to 25 (December, that is)

Christmas and its buildup are often lonely, hard and full of unreasonable expectations. Here’s how to make it to Jesus’s birthday and find the little bit of joy we all deserve. Have you found this year relentless? Has the latest Apple update “fucked up your life”? Have you lost two ...

The SpinoffBy Anna Rawhiti-Connell

19 hours ago
All I want for Christmas is modern day slavery legislation

Despite overwhelming public and corporate support, the government has stalled progress on a modern day slavery law. That puts us behind other countries – and makes Christmas a time of tragedy rather than joy, argues Shanti Mathias. Picture the scene on Christmas Day. Everyone replete with nice things to eat, ...

The SpinoffBy Shanti Mathias

19 hours ago
Israeli-American historian describes attacks on Gaza as ‘war of annihilation’

Asia Pacific Report “It looks like Hiroshima. It looks like Germany at the end of World War Two,” says an Israeli-American historian and professor of holocaust and genocide studies at Brown University about the horrifying reality of Gaza. Professor Omer Bartov, has described Israel’s ongoing war on Gaza as an ...

Evening ReportBy Asia Pacific Report

22 hours ago
NZ govt plans to make ‘heavy handed’ change to free speech rules for universities

The New Zealand government coalition is tweaking university regulations to curb what it says is an increasingly “risk-averse approach” to free speech. The proposed changes will set clear expectations on how universities should approach freedom of speech issues. Each university will then have to adopt a “freedom of speech statement” ...

Evening ReportBy Asia Pacific Report

22 hours ago
Caitlin Johnstone: Where does the aggression really begin?

Report by Dr David Robie – Café Pacific. – COMMENTARY: By Caitlin Johnstone New York prosecutors have charged Luigi Mangione with “murder as an act of terrorism” in his alleged shooting of health insurance CEO Brian Thompson earlier this month. This news comes out at the same time as ...

Evening ReportBy David Robie

1 day ago
OECD Report Highlights That More Is Needed

This report reflects that gap in our dealings overseas, and it shows that legislators, the public sector and businesses need to walk the talk. ...

Scoop politics

1 day ago
Government quietly scraps waste minimisation policies

The government has quietly cancelled plans to improve recycling and roll out a kerbside food scraps composting scheme. ...

Radio NZ – political

1 day ago
MEAA welcomes News MAP funding ‘leg up’ for Australian journalism

Pacific Media Watch The union for Australian journalists has welcomed the delivery by the federal government of more than $150 million to support the sustainability of public interest journalism over the next four years. Combined with the announcement of the revamped News Bargaining Initiative, this could result in up to ...

Evening ReportBy Asia Pacific Report

1 day ago
Transmission Gully partnership breakdown will not hurt future public-private partnerships, Infrastru...

The roads partnership unravelled under a confidential settlement this week, meaning NZTA will now finish off what it had said was incomplete work. ...

Radio NZ – political

2 days ago
Funding cuts to charity particularly felt over Christmas period

The number of people seeking help from Lifeline is expected to increase by 10 to 20 percent over Christmas. ...

Radio NZ – political

2 days ago
Nelson Hospital conditions ‘unbearable’ – staff

One worker says the building is decrepit and falling down around them. ...

Radio NZ – political

2 days ago
The Secret Diary of .. Luxon at Xmas

MONDAY“Merry Xmas, and praise the Lord,” said Sheriff Luxon, and smiled for the camera. There was a flash of smoke when the shutter pressed down on the magnesium powder. The sheriff had arranged for a photographer from the Dodge Gazette to attend a ceremony where he handed out food parcels to ...

NewsroomBy Steve Braunias

2 days ago
Stand by for cricket’s Smash Palace

It’s a little under two months since the White Ferns shocked the cricketing world, deservedly taking home the T20 World Cup. Since then the trophy has had a tour around the country, five of the squad have played in the WBBL in Australia while most others have returned to domestic ...

NewsroomBy Aiden McLaughlin

2 days ago
Early-onset dementia under the microscope

Comment: If we say the word ‘dementia’, many will picture an older person struggling to remember the names of their loved ones, maybe a grandparent living out their final years in an aged care facility. Dementia can also occur in people younger than 65, but it can take time before ...

NewsroomBy Shruti Sharma and Dr Brigid Ryan

2 days ago
Keeping the pirates at bay: Should the Australian ‘Blocking Order’ case prompt a discussion in N...

Piracy is a reality of modern life – but copyright law has struggled to play catch-up for as long as the entertainment industry has existed. As far back as 1988, the House of Lords criticised copyright law’s conflict with the reality of human behaviour in the context of burning cassette ...

NewsroomBy Tania Goatley and Oscar Zambuto

2 days ago
‘We were as famous as Tom Cruise’: Craig Parker on 90s Shortland St fandom

As he makes a surprise return to Shortland Street, actor Craig Parker takes us through his life in television. Craig Parker has been a fixture on television in Aotearoa for nearly four decades. He had starring roles in iconic local series like Gloss, Mercy Peak and Diplomatic Immunity, featured in ...

The SpinoffBy My Life in TV

2 days ago
‘I prioritise the mission, not my health’: Adam McGrath’s perfect weekend playlist

The Ōtautahi musician shares the 10 tracks he loves to spin, including the folk classic that cured him of a ‘case of the give-ups’. When singer-songwriter Adam McGrath returns to Kumeu’s Auckland Folk Festival from January 24-27, he’s not planning on simply idling his way through – he wants the late ...

The SpinoffBy Weekend playlist

2 days ago
The rescue dog bringing joy to Christchurch retirement homes

Alex Casey spends an afternoon on the job with River, the rescue dog on a mission to spread joy to Ōtautahi rest homes. Almost everyone says it is never enough time. But River the rescue dog, a jet black huntaway border collie cross, has to keep a tight pace to ...

The SpinoffBy Alex Casey

2 days ago
Fiji pro-Palestine nativity scene exposes Gaza as ‘hell on earth’ at Christmas

Asia Pacific Report Fiji activists have recreated the nativity scene at a solidarity for Palestine gathering in Fiji’s capital Suva just days before Christmas. The Fiji Women’s Crisis Centre and Fijians for Palestine Solidarity Network recreated the scene at the FWCC compound — a baby Jesus figurine lies amidst the ...

Evening ReportBy Asia Pacific Report

2 days ago
Vanuatu quake: ‘Our shop was flattened like a deck of cards’

By 1News Pacific correspondent Barbara Dreaver and 1News reporters A number of Kiwis have been successfully evacuated from Vanuatu after a devastating earthquake shook the Pacific island nation earlier this week. The death toll was still unclear, though at least 14 people were killed according to an earlier statement from ...

Evening ReportBy Asia Pacific Report

2 days ago
How diplomats have broken the law in NZ – and what happened next

A handful of foreign diplomats have misbehaved during their time here - and not all of them have been brought to justice. ...

Radio NZ – political

2 days ago
Swim schools report sinking enrolments as downturn deepens

Being able to swim is often considered a life skill, but tough economic times are forcing many families to pull their children out of lessons. ...

Radio NZ – political

2 days ago
‘There will be deaths because of this’ – Warning over Health NZ IT cuts

A West Coast IT worker is warning patients will die as Health New Zealand aims to slash its data and digital staff. ...

Radio NZ – political

2 days ago
Polytech sales possible but unlikely when Te Pūkenga disestablished – minister

In a surprise move, the sale of polytechnics will be on the table when the national institute of technology Te Pūkenga is disestablished. ...

Radio NZ – political

2 days ago
Parliament’s final sitting day an insight into party factions

On Parliament's last day of the year, there was a rare glimpse of the factions within the major parties. ...

Radio NZ – political

2 days ago
Former Labour MP, North Shore mayor Ann Hartley dies

Former Labour MP and mayor of Auckland's North Shore City Ann Hartley has died. ...

Radio NZ – political

2 days ago
The closest thing Australian cartooning had to a prophet: the sometimes celebrated, sometimes contro...

Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Richard Scully, Professor in Modern History, University of New England Bunker. Image courtesy of Michael Leunig, CC BY-NC-SA Michael Leunig – who died in the early hours of Thursday December 19, surrounded by “his children, loved ones, and sunflowers” – was the ...

Evening ReportBy The Conversation

2 days ago
Labour moves Speaker from the ‘nice’ to ‘naughty’ list

Last week's fights with the Speaker over the Fast Track schedule may have changed the tone in Parliament. ...

Radio NZ – political

2 days ago
Govt ends pilot programme for Māori and Pacific, sparking outrage

The Government announced the end of the programme that allowed Māori and Pacific people to acess bowel cancer screening at 50-years-old. ...

Radio NZ – political

2 days ago
Parliament fits an extra morning into final sitting day

The House - On Parliament's last day of the year, there was the rare occurrence of a personal (conscience) vote on selling booze over the Easter weekend. While it didn't have the numbers to pass, it was a chance to get a rare glimpse of the fact ...

Radio NZ – political

2 days ago
The Friday Poem: ‘Bejeweled log’ by Holly Fletcher

A new poem by Holly Fletcher. bejeweled log i was dreaming about wasps / wee darlings that followed me / ducking under objects / that i was fated to pickup / my fingers seeking / and meeting with tiny proboscis’s / but instead / i wake up / roll sideways ...

The SpinoffBy Holly Fletcher

2 days ago
Sunglasses don’t just look good – they’re good for you too. Here’s how to choose the right p...

Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Flora Hui, Research Fellow, Centre for Eye Research Australia and Honorary Fellow, Department of Surgery (Ophthalmology), The University of Melbourne Versta/Shutterstock Australians are exposed to some of the highest levels of solar ultraviolet (UV) radiation in the world. While we ...

Evening ReportBy The Conversation

2 days ago
How does franchising work?

Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Andrew Terry, Professor of Business Regulation, University of Sydney Michael von Aichberger/Shutterstock Even if you’ve no idea how the business model underpinning franchises works, there’s a good chance you’ve spent money at one. Franchising is essentially a strategy for cloning ...

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2 days ago
The one episode of Shortland Street you need to watch this year

If something big is going to happen in Ferndale, it’s going to happen at Christmas. This is an excerpt from our weekly pop culture newsletter Rec Room. Sign up here. If there’s one episode of Shortland Street you should watch each year, it’s the annual Christmas cliffhanger. The final episode of ...

The SpinoffBy Tara Ward

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As China expands its cyber espionage and sabotage operations, how will the Trump administration resp...

Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By William A. Stoltz, Lecturer and expert Associate, National Security College, Australian National University US President-elect Donald Trump has named most of the members of his proposed cabinet. However, he’s yet to reveal key appointees to America’s powerful cyber warfare and intelligence institutions. ...

Evening ReportBy The Conversation

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The Unity Books bestseller chart for 2024

Announcing the top 10 books of the the year at Unity Books’ stores in High St, Auckland, and Willis St, Wellington. AUCKLAND 1 Intermezzo by Sally Rooney (Faber & Faber, $37) The phenomenal Irish writer is the unsurprising chart topper for 2024 with her fourth novel that, much like her first ...

The SpinoffBy The Spinoff Review of Books

2 days ago

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