Anatomy of a lie

Written By: IrishBill - Date published: 8:51 pm, May 5th, 2011 - 158 comments
Categories: Politics - Tags: hone harawira, matthew hooton, trevor mallard

When the news of Hone Harawira’s “support for Osama Bin Laden” broke in the Herald I was suspicious of it – there was no byline on the story and it wasn’t on the front page. Surely such a revelation would be headline news and surely the journo that covered it would want to claim such a cracker story as their own. And why did it take two days between Hone saying it and the Herald picking it up. The whole thing had a sense of a cautious editorial decision.

My gut feeling was there was context missing and that it had the feel of research unit work. Especially as Matthew Hooton has been touting a similar line about Annette Sykes (I asked him about the rumours he’s working for Brash – ~~so far he’s not denied it~~ [Matthew has confirmed he’s not working for Brash]).

Then I saw the video. My first impression was Hone was saying we shouldn’t be celebrating a man’s death in his usual roundabout way.

One of our commenters described it this way:

I just watched the clip http://tvnz.co.nz/te-karere/video [it’s about two thirds in] – it turns out the full quote was “they [bin laden’s family] mourn for a man who fought for the rights, the land and the freedom of his people”.

It seemed to me he was talking about the way Bin Laden’s family would have thought of Bin Laden.

Whatever was going on it was pretty clear that Hone wasn’t backing Bin Laden just as it was clear that the context of what he said had been altered with the removal of a single word: “they”.

That didn’t stop all of those with a vested interest in discrediting Hone (and some of those without one) from having a go including, to his discredit, Trevor Mallard over on red alert.

By the afternoon the story was whipped up into a frenzy. Which surprised me because it seemed patently clear from the video evidence that what people were claiming Hone meant he hadn’t meant at all. Several commenters here and on other blogs who actually watched the Te Karere video said as much.

I suppose that by then there was enough blood in the water that journos who should have known better felt obliged to report on the story with headlines that misrepresented what Hone said. After all, it fits the “loose cannon” narrative they’re all sold on and perhaps they convinced themselves that the perception was more important than the facts (and perhaps it is). Then when it was nice and juicy Key stepped in.

And now Hone has apologised for the way he said what he said. Not for saying he supported Bin laden (because he never did) but because the power of the lie was so great he probably felt he had to.

Unfortunately this will be represented as confirming the lie.

There’s a couple of lessons in this. One is for the Mana party who have learned the hard way how the echo chamber runs and how watchful they will have to be.

The other is for the journalists and the pundits: there will be a lot of this over the next seven months. If you buy into this dirty game like you have with Hone you will be doing yourselves and democracy a huge disservice.

I should note two more things: I’m not a great supporter of Hone, I like the left politics Mana espouses but I’ve had a bit to do with a few of the people in his team (as I’ve had a bit to do with a lot of political operators across the spectrum) and I’m not confident they have what it takes to put any weight into their vision. That they’ve let their guard down like this doesn’t change that.

I’m also disappointed in the opportunism show by Trevor Mallard in this matter. He’s the man running Labour’s campaign and for him to make the fundamental mistake of assuming his enemy’s enemy is his friend is amateur – the right wing echo chamber he threw in with on this will be used against Labour this year and today he helped make it a little more powerful.

In politics you’ve got to take your lumps because life isn’t fair but frankly the whole debacle has left a bad taste in my mouth.

158 comments on “Anatomy of a lie ”

Comments are now closed

Anthony 1

5 May 2011 at 9:00 pm

Even the way the herald and stuff reported the quotes underlined the lie…

Both papers placed his quotes out of chronological order to create a further perception of support for Bin Laden.
higherstandard 2

5 May 2011 at 9:03 pm

I still think the most bizarre things he’s said is the repeated assertions that Brash is like Hitler, he need to engage his brain before opening the mouth.

If he wrote and talked about more stuff like this

http://hone.co.nz/2011/04/20/an-anzac-story-for-all-new-zealanders/

he might attract less opprobrium.
- IrishBill 2.1
  
  5 May 2011 at 9:14 pm
  
  Agreed. I think he’s using the Hitler stuff to get coverage but it’s still not the smartest move.
deemac 3

5 May 2011 at 9:21 pm

“not the smartest move”?? it’s offensive! not to Brash of course (he can look after himself) but to Hitler’s victims. In the US or UK Hone would now be toast after that comment.
All in all, Hone’s foolish behaviour just underlines that the idea that he is cut out to be the leader of a serious political party is a complete non-starter.
- IrishBill 3.1
  
  5 May 2011 at 9:30 pm
  
  You’re right he’d be a better leader if he was like Don Brash, John Key, Phil Goff, Pita Sharples, Tariana Turia or Peter Dunne.
  
  Like I said I’m not a supporter of Hone’s but I’m not discounting him from any leadership club that includes this lot.
Scott 4

5 May 2011 at 9:32 pm

People are entitled to take a politician’s words at face value, and most people (on both left and right) were appalled by what Harawira said. He may not have meant what came out of his mouth, but they were the words he chose. Plenty of people on the left were appalled by what he said – not just the usual suspects on the right.

The fact that Hone continues to have these brain explosions speaks volumes. Even his most ardent supporters must be shaking their heads. Leader of a parliamentary party? God help us all. I am now beginning to have some sympathy for Phil Goff for ruling him out of any deal.
- felix 4.1
  
  5 May 2011 at 10:07 pm
  
  Do you mean take a politician’s words at face value?
  
  Or do you mean take the Herald’s paraphrasing and editing of those words at face value?
  
  Because your comment suggests to me that you don’t realise how different those two things are in this instance.
- Alwyn 4.2
  
  6 May 2011 at 2:37 pm
  
  The funniest part of Hone’s interview at the weekend was when he was talking about the 90 day bill.
  He claimed that if Don Brash had his way it would become a 60 day bill and then a 30 day bill.
  Funny, but from the left’s pont of view a 60 day instead of 90 period would have to be better and a 30 day period would be better again. Still we can’t expect much in the way of logic from someone who can seriously compare Don Brash with Hitler!
  - Vicky32 4.2.1
    
    6 May 2011 at 4:26 pm
    
    Funny, but from the left’s pont of view a 60 day instead of 90 period would have to be better and a 30 day period would be better again.
    
    Er, Alwyn, how do you work that out?
    - Alwyn 4.2.1.1
      
      6 May 2011 at 5:09 pm
      
      Think about it.
      If you had a 30 day period for a trial you would, if you lasted that long, have the right to claim unfair dismissal if you then lost your job. ie You could only be dismissed in the first 30 days, not the first 90 days.
      In fact you can say that what the Left is really after is a ZERO day bill. I don’t think that Hone got as far as saying that what Don would introduce is a zero day bill but he might have. I can’t really be bothered looking at the whole program again to check.
Terry 5

5 May 2011 at 9:34 pm

I left a comment on Yahoo Xtra, which can be referred to if they published this. I thought Hone’s remarks were clearly not supporting personally the very bad bin Laden. I have always detested bin Laden. But I also believe in the sanctity of every human life (yes, even Muslims – they are human beings too!)
I am so tired of seeing and hearing 99% American versions of what happened to accompany their indecent smirking and gloating. Justice is essential and good, plain vengeance is another matter. Hone I thought was very discerning and for that matter “pastoral”, all accompanied by his fearless and honest opinion. I do not know what he was apologising for – because he showed himself a caring human being for a man with people who loved him?
Key’s utterances were typically deplorable.
By no means do I make the slightest connection, but feel constrained to look at Christ (to vast numbers bin Laden could have been be likened to a Christ-like Saviour). Jesus at least received some semblance of a charge laid against him and a mockery of a trial. Osama bin Laden was murdered (clearly unarmed and passive), without getting to hear any charge laid, he could have been arrested and did not have even that opportunity, and most certainly he was executed without standing trial (even Hussain was permitted these rights).
The voice of the Islamic world is muted, a common effect of great shock and grief. We will never get the real facts, but mistake not silence for acceptance. Better that they do speak rather than deliver the actions they are sure, in their own time, to take.
Meanwhile plotting and ordering assassination has not blotted the name of Obama, it has ensured his popularity and victory at the election next year. It appears that he is learning new lessons from George Bush. I greatly disliked bin Laden, but I dislike also the absence of true justice and the nasty gloatings of vengeance which might next be taken on Assange? Hone there a more than a few who stand by you. You gave not a hint that you admired bin Laden for any evil things to his account.
ianmac 6

5 May 2011 at 9:37 pm

Thanks Irish Bill for your post. The twisting of truth was at least sad, and I would have thought that in the name of fair play, there would have been a bit more circumspection in the story. And to think that even many on the Left were gullible! And Trevor. Shame!
Drakula 7

5 May 2011 at 9:49 pm

So even Ill Duce or Franco or Milosovitch loved their families and did what they thought was right. We don’t have to like these people they were mass murderers.

I think if more people in NZ took a holiday on the Gaza Strip they would get what Honi is saying.

He hasn’t said anything offensive, it’s the fascist media trying to paint him black.

I wish him all the luck, but that’s not going to be enough, he is going to have to be carefull, steer clear from mid-east issues until November election.
Jim in Tokyo 8

5 May 2011 at 9:59 pm

Stuff.co.nz also went back and edited their own story during the day to obscure the fact that they misquoted Harawira.

Initially they reported that Harawira said we should ‘celebrate Bin Laden’s life’. 336 frenzied comments later, they closed comments then went back and changed the line in question to ‘celebrate life’.

Throughout, they did not quote Harawira but rather chose to paraphrase him in an intentionally misleading and inflammatory way.

I guess they figured the average stuff reader wouldn’t actually bother to watch the original Maori Television clip at the top of the page, and by in large they were right.
- stargazer 8.1
  
  5 May 2011 at 11:10 pm
  
  surely there’s plenty of scope for a press council complaint against both of these papers? as well as other media who have failed to report accurately.
- Jenny 8.2
  
  6 May 2011 at 3:37 am
  
  Jim in Tokyo
  
  Stuff.co.nz also went back and edited their own story during the day to obscure the fact that they misquoted Harawira.
  
  Jim your observation that Stuff went back to re-edit their lie after the fact is very telling.
  
  This alteration reminded me so strongly of the work of the ‘Ministry of Truth’, the fictional workplace of the George Orwell character Winston in the famous novel ‘1984’.
  
  Winston’s job at the Ministry of Truth was to go back to old news clippings and “correct” them. This was a fairly involved process meaning the actual hard copy archives had to be accessed and retyped, the original then having to be burnt in furnaces in the basement, of the building.
  
  George Orwell obviously had not imagined the invention of the internet and the desktop computer where the work of the ‘Ministry of Truth’ could be done electronically with just a few key strokes.
  
  I have often thought that the novel ‘1984’ was written as a warning by Orwell to his fellow journalists.
  
  I would advise all those involved in this ‘work’ to reread this old novel, and if they are able, hang their heads in shame.
Robert Atack 9

5 May 2011 at 10:26 pm

They had this so called death a mouth to late, it should have been on the 1st April, what with all the fools that believe it ffs.
You are the supposedly most wanted man in the world, living miles away from any recognised helicopter flight paths, then not only do 2 or 3 of them fly to, and then hover over your house, but one crashes and burns in your backyard … then some thugs blow a hole in your wall run up stairs and you are still sitting in or near your bed? Then they take your dead body 800 miles and drop you in the ocean. There must be a beer ad in this?
- Lanthanide 9.1
  
  6 May 2011 at 12:08 am
  
  It’s pretty simple, Robert. Either Osama is dead, and in the ocean, or he’s in American custody in a prison cell somewhere. It doesn’t really matter either way.
  
  He is certainly not alive and free somewhere – he would simply pop up in a new video, and show the US to be huge liars.
  
  You’re also acting like this was some routine helicopter run and they just took a side trip out to take Osama out on the way, which is frankly, bizarre.
- Drakula 9.2
  
  6 May 2011 at 8:47 pm
  
  How convenient it is for them to dump Bin Ladin’s body in the ocean, for all we know he could be still alive or he could have died even before the 9/11 attack.
  
  The CIA definately knew that there was a threat to those towers (Mike Moore) but just sat on the information.
  
  Wouldn’t that make them just as culpable as Bin Ladin? Maybe this is a subject for a seperate post.
  
  In the case of Hone’s misquote or blatant lie, the journalist involved should be disciplined, but then again how can they be disciplined if the rot is at a higher level?
  - Colonial Viper 9.2.1
    
    6 May 2011 at 9:05 pm
    
    BTW when you look at footage of the three large World Trade Centre buildings which came down on 9/11, all of them collapsed neatly and vertically on to their ground floor foot prints, minimising damage to nearby buildings.
    
    That pattern of structural disintegration also happens to be a characteristic of structures destroyed via carefully engineered controlled demolitions.
Samuel Hill 10

5 May 2011 at 10:33 pm

Well said Irish. Been saying this stuff about Harawira too. Mana is a Maori Socialist party, essentially with the same kind of image as a Maori Greens. The more people pick on Mana as to why it needs to be a Maori Party, the more they will find it hard to defend themselves. This is a Maori party trying to come across as a party for more than just Maoris, but will they campaign for General Electorate votes too? They are being attacked by a General electorate media. It isn’t just Maori voters watching you when you go on shows like Close Up. They are only a small party and it is silly for them to try and contest Maori seats and other Electorate seats.
- felix 10.1
  
  5 May 2011 at 10:52 pm
  
  Samuel,
  
  The bulk of this post is pretty much saying the exact opposite of what you’ve been saying about Hone today.
  
  This post is about how a horrible nasty lie has been spread.
  
  You’ve been helping to spread that lie today Samuel. Only an hour and a half before your comment here, you were busy spreading the lie.
  
  I’m starting to look sideways at you.
  - Samuel Hill 10.1.1
    
    6 May 2011 at 12:05 am
    
    Am I not allowed to attack both Mana and ACT? Is there some kind of contradiction in being a centrist?
    
    I have told you my point of view. You are very defensive about it. I am saying that I don’t care that Osama Bin Laden is dead, he deserves to be hung up for what he did. I don’t care about a trial for people like him. If it had been one of my own family killed on September 11, I would have probably wanted to hunt him down myself, despite my political understanding of Bin Laden’s Jihad on America.
    
    I have watched the video, and it doesn’t change my opinion, or my senses I get from Hone Harawira. Even if it is the traditional Maori view to say that we should not speak about the dead, or to only remember the good things in life about the dead, I don’t really care about that because MY personal beliefs hold that those things in the context of Osama Bin Laden are wrong. Now if this is Hone using his being Maori to hoax some extreme left wing people into his party, I am a little worried about a guy who puts bait out there like that. He certainly isn’t going to be pulling any centrists. If the leader of the National Party or Labour Party said these kind of things, I would suspect there would be some very interesting phone calls being made from certain countries.
    
    [lprent: Your opinion is one thing that the site generally doesn’t care about. However felix is pulling you up on your assertion of a fact about what Hone actually said. Support it or withdraw it. And read the policy. ]
    - felix 10.1.1.1
      
      6 May 2011 at 8:21 am
      
      So what?
      
      What you’ve been doing is misquoting and pretending that Hone said things he never said, and I still haven’t seen you acknowledge that yet.
      
      Very dishonest behaviour, Samuel.
      - Samuel Hill 10.1.1.1.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 8:39 am
        
        felix..
        
        What I did was quote the 3 news story which said that Hone Harawira said we should “honour” Osama Bin Laden. Now I will admit that haven’t found a direct quote of him even using the word honour, but I told you when I posted the story that it wasn’t me adding in the quotation marks. If this is bad behaviour I apologize for that.
        
        What I have found is a quote from Harawira saying that we should “acknowledge the positive aspects of life” in regard to Osama Bin Laden. That doesn’ change my opinion I already have of Harawira over sevral years watching him on television and in the media.
        
        [lprent: The short answer is that as far as I can see from the discussion he never said that he ‘honoured” him. If you want to repeat your assertion when challenged then you have to substantiate your assertion of fact with a link to something reputable. If you cannot then you will stop repeating it because as far as I’m concerned that would be a flamewar starter (see the policy).
        
        What you have replied with here is an argument against bad journalism (the point that Irish was making), another quote without a link, and a clearly stated opinion. The latter appears to be the only thing you’re expressing. ]
        
        felix 10.1.1.1.1.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 8:48 am
        
        And again, I’m not challenging your opinion. On anything.
        
        I’m just challenging your repetition of the lie. The one the post is about.
        
        So opinion away, have a big opinion party and invite all your opinions around for some opinion pie if you like. BUT when you use proven lies and pretend that they’re facts to give weight to your opinions, people are likely to point that out.
        
        Colonial Viper 10.1.1.1.1.2
        
        6 May 2011 at 8:48 am
        
        What I did was quote the 3 news story which said that Hone Harawira said we should “honour” Osama Bin Laden.
        
        Perpetrating someone else’s lie is still lying.
        
        Defending yourself doing that takes it one step further.
        
        Samuel Hill 10.1.1.1.1.3
        
        6 May 2011 at 10:40 am
        
        Here is the 3 News link from the original story I quoted.
        
        http://www.3news.co.nz/Hone-Harawira-Bin-Laden-fought-for-freedom/tabid/419/articleID/209839/Default.aspx
        
        I have already apologised for using what appears to be a misquote. I can’t find any footage of Harawira using the word “honoured”.
        
        Here is another quote though, and for all you people silly enough to think that I am an ACT Troll, the location of the link should cause you some delight:
        
        From the NBR:
        
        http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/bin-laden-freedom-fighter-harawira-nn-92331
        
        “We have heard nothing but negative things about him from the Americans, but he fought for the self-determination of his people and for his beliefs,” Mr Harawira said.
        
        “Indeed despite what the media has said, his family, his tribe, his people are in mourning. They mourn for the man who fought for the rights, the lands and the freedom of his people. We should not damn them in death but acknowledge the positive aspects of life.”
        
        I don’t agree with these comments. I don’t think Osama Bin Laden should be showed any respect, just as I don’t think he should be honoured. This adds to my opinion I already of Hone Harawira. Anyone who makes these kind of comments is either very misguided, or trying to get ignorant people to vote for them. I don’t like that.
        
        Does that cover everything?
        
        [lprent: I think that you have mistaken the intent of my warning. If I see another instance of you squirming and bullshitting when pulled up on a statement of fact, you’ll earn a ban. I really don’t care about your excuses or who are. I expect people commenting here to comply when warned, or offer an explanation about why they were doing what they did, or leave – not excuses. If I have to expend to much time moderating then I will ban for that as well.
        
        Moderators opinion about what is acceptable behavior counts here. Your opinion (or anyone elses) about what is acceptable behavior is just irrelevant waffle. Does that clarify things for you? ]
        
        Samuel Hill …
        
        6 May 2011 at 12:12 pm
        
        So what, I can’t even debate? I think you already have your opinion made up that you don’t like what I have to say. Squirming and bullshitting? Wow. I didn’t realise coming to an understanding with somebody else as to what their problem with what I had to say was squirming and bullshitting. I completely accept that I made an error and apologised. But now that I pull out some information that supports my feelings on the BIG PICTURE, I get threatened with a ban?
        
        I guess if I said fuck the police or wanted to have a tangi for Osama Bin Laden it would be fine though?
        
        Colonial Viper …
        
        6 May 2011 at 12:14 pm
        
        Interesting you think that you “perpetrating lies” = “debate”. Definitely reckon you are a NACT supporter tasked with undermining Hone.
        
        Samuel Hill …
        
        6 May 2011 at 12:23 pm
        
        What I’m essentially being told now is that I am not allowed to partake in the debate even after retracting statements I made using what I did not know at the time was false information.
        
        After reading your comments I made a clearer argument and used links as was requested and will do in the future.
        
        But I guess even challenging authority here will probably get me banned. I hope I am wrong.
        
        [lprent: Making a clear retraction is required. Trying to divert onto another topic does not constitute a retraction. As you say – state it clearly and I don’t have to waste my time as a moderator.
        
        Of course challenging ‘authority’ here will certainly get you banned, because the moderators define what is acceptable behavior here. You will be wasting our time, and that is a cardinal offense. A moments thought will tell you why.
        
        Remember the site is manned by volunteers who write posts, moderate, and do all of the scut work that is required to keep the site running. We’re doing this in our own time, and the last thing we need is some half-arsed know-it-all chewing up our time by trying to tell us how we should be running our site. We’ve been running it for nearly 4 years and know exactly what tends to work and what doesn’t (as reflected in the rising site stats). One part of that is that moderators don’t waste too much time arguing with people who indulge themselves in behavior that gets them a ban.
        
        Quite simply we make the rules that are followed because we are the ones doing the work and you are a guest. If you don’t like it then go elsewhere or start your own blog. But if you are a guest here then you will follow our less than onerous standards of behavior and don’t waste our time on something you can read in the about or the policy. ]
        
        felix …
        
        6 May 2011 at 1:01 pm
        
        Nah, being a dick will probably get you banned.
        
        I never saw you retract anything. In fact long after it was patiently explained and carefully shown by way of videos and links that you were repeating lies, you were still doing the same thing but with a slightly altered phrasing.
        
        In fact, Samuel, in your comment just above, with the links, you’re still trying to tie Hone to the idea of honouring Bin Laden.
        
        Absorb this:
        
        I’ve read Samuel’s comments. What sort of disgusting person would hate children? I don’t hate children. It all just adds to my opinion of Samuel Hill.
        
        That’s what you’re doing now.
        
        Seems like for quite a long time everyone tried to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you were misinformed, but the trouble is that even when you had to have known that, you carried on misinforming.
        
        Note: no-one has criticised your ability to express opinions or state facts. But don’t try your bullshit on me Sam.
        
        Samuel Hill …
        
        6 May 2011 at 1:45 pm
        
        Well done, you’re putting two and two together now felix..
        
        a)I don’t check this page every 5 minutes, nor the news. When you urged me to watch the videos etc yesterday, I did. And I have admitted several times that I was wrong to quote the TV 3 article.. When are you going to accept that? I will say it again. I WAS WRONG TO USE IT. SORRY.
        
        b)You are on the right track as to why I posted the NBR link with the actual quote. I am not using it to show that Harawira REALLY DOES SUPPORT OSAMA. No, I don’t believe that. I used the link to show that Hone was not scathing of Bin Laden, and in his initial answers on Te Karere, I think he was more or less pandering to far-left, anti-US voters.
        
        Ofcourse supporting Bin Laden and refusing to vilify him on his death are two completely different things. I do realise that. My point is that I don’t find Harawiras comments were the comments of somebody who I want to be in power in this country. If he had any type of knowledge as to what average kiwis think, he would have realised he was making a mistake with those comments. Thats why he had to apologise.
        
        The fact that he HAD TO APOLOGISE over the remarks he made, remarks I think he made not based on his opinion, but on his desire to appeal to voters outside the mainstream, shows to me a lack of class. If he had of just said, “Bin Laden did some terrible things, but I don’t think we should celebrate anybodys death” Then he wouldn’t be in this situation of him having to apologise.
        
        Thats all I am saying.
        
        Do you understand that? Please tell me you do.
        
        felix …
        
        6 May 2011 at 1:47 pm
        
        But that’s not all you’ve been saying Samuel. See my previous comment.
        
        Colonial Viper …
        
        6 May 2011 at 2:13 pm
        
        Samuel Hill doesn’t check The Standard every 5 minutes but has posted here, what dozens of times in the last few days?
        
        “Yeah right”.
        
        A NACTer tasked with taking Hone down.
        
        higherstandard …
        
        6 May 2011 at 2:17 pm
        
        Jees CV do you really think NACT want Hone to be taken down ?
        
        Really ?
        
        I’d think their view is that Mana and hone are heaven sent.
        
        Samuel Hill …
        
        6 May 2011 at 2:27 pm
        
        Hahaha. Thats all you’ve got to cling onto isn’t in Colonial Viper?
        
        Colonial Viper …
        
        6 May 2011 at 8:34 pm
        
        No what I have to cling too is frakin hot, babelicious and rich.
        
        You’re just a hobby
Rodel 11

5 May 2011 at 10:43 pm

Shame on Trevor. You should just roll over, respect and accept Harawira’s rants. Bullshit!
No Good for you Trev! Harawaia is your opposition, and a bullshit artist like Brash, Key and Co.

Get stuck into him and ridicule his nonsense which is as stupid as Brash’s crap, English’s deceit and Keys duplicity.
The Labour party needs the Mallards of this world. Show a bit of gumption Labour. Then people might vote for you.
Is this a Mana party website or wot?
- Wobble 11.1
  
  5 May 2011 at 11:06 pm
  
  Rodel – Are you a Labour Party hack or what?
- Colonial Viper 11.2
  
  5 May 2011 at 11:32 pm
  
  Not sure how Labour helps matters or itself by extending the misleading MSM hype.
Lanthanide 12

6 May 2011 at 12:10 am

It would be nice for the Johnny-come-lately media to actually investigate the original claim, and then report on that, rather than just copying what other media have said.

Imagine what it would be like if TV3 ran a story saying “news media biased: Hone doesn’t worship Osama”.
Sanctuary 13

6 May 2011 at 6:57 am

Another post yesterday here on the Wikileaks cables quoted an American diplomat remarking on our media’s “excessive fondness of political novelty” – a polite way of saying they are feckless and lazy. Given that, how can anyone, least of all Hone Harawira, not have guessed what they would focus on when he made those statements? There is no need for a plot against the left or against Maori. A lazy, ratings driven media is all you need.
- IrishBill 13.1
  
  6 May 2011 at 7:01 am
  
  But it’s helped along by some very hardworking and well organised operators on the right (and some stupid mistakes from the likes of Harawira).
PeteG 14

6 May 2011 at 7:23 am

Why then has Harawira apologised with:

“Using terror for political reasons is never acceptable. I apologise for how I expressed myself.”

And on this corrected quote:

“they [bin laden’s family] mourn for a man who fought for the rights, the land and the freedom of his people”

and “pursued independence for his people, his family and his tribe”.

There is no indication Hone is in a position to quote on behalf of bin Laden’s family, so this must be his own views on bin Laden as a freedom fighter, as Hone views himself.

I still agree with Morgan Godfery…

As I said, Hone does not lack control. This was not a random comment. It was a statement of genuine belief and a foolish one at that. If anything sinks the Mana Party it will be these sorts of deformed views – it will not be lack of discipline and control.
felix 15

6 May 2011 at 8:38 am

“There is no indication Hone is in a position to quote on behalf of bin Laden’s family”

Which he didn’t do.

“so this must be his own views on bin Laden as a freedom fighter, as Hone views himself.”

Except that it’s explicitly not. Duh. Who refers to himself as “they” you moron?
- PeteG 15.1
  
  6 May 2011 at 9:00 am
  
  Saying “they mourn” is a presumption, I guess it depends on what members of bin Laden’s family Hone is making the presumption for. Bin Laden has 20 known children with 5 wives. He had 54 known siblings. Difficult to talk for all of them, especially when you don’t know any of them.
  
  There is no indication that any of bin Laden’s family thought he “fought for the rights, the land and the freedom of his people”. So that must Harawira’s view on it – unless he or you can show otherwise.
  - felix 15.1.1
    
    6 May 2011 at 9:22 am
    
    I can show otherwise by pointing to the fucking words on the page – it’s quite clearly Hone’s presumption of the Bin Laden family’s views, no argument there.
    
    Perhaps they’re actually your views Pete. After all I don’t have any proof they’re not.
    - PeteG 15.1.1.1
      
      6 May 2011 at 9:30 am
      
      So yes, obviously it’s what Harawira thinks, or at least what he wanted to say.
      It is not a known view of anyone from the many in the bin Laden family.
      
      I didn’t say it and it’s not my view at all, you’re getting a bit desperate.
      - felix 15.1.1.1.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 12:41 pm
        
        Pete you’ve said twice now that because Hone presumes to know what the Bin Laden family are thinking, he must in fact be thinking the same thing he presumes they’re thinking.
        
        By that “reasoning” (and I do hesitate to call it that) if I say “Pete George blows goats and really, really likes it” does that somehow prove that actually I blow goats and really like it?
        
        I’d love to hear why you think that’s not the exact same argument you’re using.
        
        PeteG 15.1.1.1.1.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 1:12 pm
        
        There’s a major difference.
        
        You have absolutely no reason to link me with goats, so you either made it up completely or you personally have something with goats.
        
        I think there is a widespread recognition that Harawira was projecting his own ideas of himself onto the bin Laden family. It is not just me who thinks that. Harawira (or his strategists) seems to have recognised he erred, he has apologised. And I’ll repeat a quote from Morgan Godfer above:
        
        As I said, Hone does not lack control. This was not a random comment. It was a statement of genuine belief and a foolish one at that.
        
        felix …
        
        6 May 2011 at 1:33 pm
        
        Doesn’t alter anything.
        
        Here’s what I’m disputing: You said “So that must [be] Harawira’s view on it”
        
        A statement for which you have no basis whatsoever unless you use my “goats” reasoning.
        
        Please try again.
        
        PeteG …
        
        6 May 2011 at 1:58 pm
        
        It must be his view, he said it, “– unless he or you can show otherwise” – the bit of my statement you have omitted from your quote. Do you think it wasn’t his view?
        
        I think you’re being a bit of a goat about your “reasoning”.
        
        felix …
        
        6 May 2011 at 2:04 pm
        
        “It must be his view, he said it”
        
        It’s his view that it’s someone else’s view. That’s not the same thing as it being his view at all.
        
        You’re still using my “goat” reasoning to the letter.
        
        You’re saying that anything someone says about someone else automatically applies to them as well. This makes no sense whatsoever.
        
        Please try again without the goat reasoning.
        
        PeteG …
        
        6 May 2011 at 2:29 pm
        
        Suffering a bit of Fridayitis felix?
        
        Dispute it if you like, but I think it is fairly general knowledge that Harawira sees himself as someone who fights “for the rights, the land and the freedom of his people”.
        
        He said the bin Laden family mourn – probably some of them at least do that – for “for a man who fought for the rights, the land and the freedom of his people””.
        
        So Harawira said (and presumably thinks) bin Laden “fought for the rights, the land and the freedom of his people””.
        
        Harawira’s view of himself and his view of bin Laden appear to correlate. So it’s a reasonable assumption to make that it is his view on both counts. Don’t distract yourelf with your goat obsession, just see it as it is, it’s quite simple.
        
        lprent []
        
        6 May 2011 at 3:25 pm
        
        I’d agree with felix. You are using a goat screwing argument.
        
        I usually refer to it as a “1 + 1 = 11” argument beloved of such illogical thinkers as Whaleoil, Wishart and evidentially now yourself. This is because you leap to an unjustified conclusion based on the similarity of objects. This may be the basis of sympathetic magic and the current highest levels of right wing thought (eg Trump), but I just find it idiotic in the extreme.
        
        Pascal's bookie …
        
        6 May 2011 at 2:33 pm
        
        felix.
        
        I think Pete is very subtly trying to let us know that he believes all the things he assumes Hone does.
        
        It’s all that Straussian esoteric writing business.
        
        That ‘just see it as it is’, for example, is a dead give away.
        
        felix …
        
        6 May 2011 at 2:38 pm
        
        So this is what we have so far:
        
        a) Pete thinks Hone believes (x)
        
        b) Hone States that he believes someone else thinks (x)
        
        c) Therefore Hone must also believe (x)
        
        If there’s a step I’m missing, Pete, please point it out would you?
        
        edit: P’s b I think that might be it. After all he has repeated Hone’s statement a few times so I guess that means he agrees with it.
        
        ianmac …
        
        6 May 2011 at 2:42 pm
        
        PeteG says he has a comb. A rooster has a comb. Therefore Pete is a rooster. Simple.
        
        PeteG …
        
        6 May 2011 at 3:00 pm
        
        a) Pete thinks Hone believes (x)
        
        That’s the bit you seem to be struggling with (or pretending to struggle with). Are you really suggesting I’m the only one who thinks that?
        
        If you can understand that many people think something like that you might start to get it. I’ll put it in your sort of language:
        
        a) Many people think Hone believes (x).
        
        Then it’s not a huge step to:
        
        c) Therefore Hone may probably also believe (x)
        
        wtl …
        
        6 May 2011 at 3:27 pm
        
        a) Many people think Hone believes (x).
        
        Then it’s not a huge step to:
        
        c) Therefore Hone may probably also believe (x)
        
        Very good logic. Lets all use that logic and go back to the goats example. I think PeteG likes goats (see above). All those who think the same, please add your comments here. If ‘many’ people think that we will have:
        
        c) Therefore PeteG may probably like goats
        
        Pascal's bookie …
        
        6 May 2011 at 3:33 pm
        
        I’ve noticed people recently talking about PeteG’s unsavoury obsession with goats. Where there’s smoke there’s fire. That’s just simple logic.
        
        PeteG …
        
        6 May 2011 at 3:35 pm
        
        wtl – there’s a major flaw in your attempt at a mass attack. It’s obvious that no one has any idea of my views on goats, apart from felix acting like billy. And you know what Harawira is well known for.
        
        felix, you’ll have to try a bit harder, lp has not come in black so you can deliver you closing lecture under cover.
        
        lp – do you really think that “Harawira sees himself as fighting for the rights, the land and the freedom of his people” it an unjustified conclusion?
        
        Here’s some more from Morgan:
        
        It is not that Hone lacks discipline, he is not shooting from the hip, he genuinely believes that Osama Bin Laden is freedom fighter. I am no expert on the subject, but others more qualified than I have indicated that he was not – he was in fact a cruel and oppressive man with warped religious notions. Osama did not believe in freedom in the proper sense of the word.
        
        This is Hone’s most significant problem. He is supremely confident in his beliefs, but some of his beliefs are built upon romantic and ultimately fallacious notions. Hone Harawira immediately equates the underdog, the perceived anti-western/anti-colonial fighter with something good.
        
        He equated bin Laden’s fight with his romantic notion of his own.
        
        felix …
        
        6 May 2011 at 3:38 pm
        
        Dearest Pete, no-one said you were the only one.
        
        But now you’re back to plain old begging the question. You can’t use a lie in the Herald to prove itself because a bunch of people believed it was true.
        
        Also, you’ve mentioned goats quite a few times today. There’s obviously more to this Pete/goat connection than I first thought.
        
        Obviously.
        
        billy goat …
        
        6 May 2011 at 3:38 pm
        
        Speaking on behalf of NZ goats, I can confirm we have no interest in the advances of Pete G.
        
        wtl …
        
        6 May 2011 at 3:47 pm
        
        I wasn’t really calling for a mass attack, but rather pointing out the absurdity of your logic. If you feel threatened, you should have another look at your logic – you are basically saying that if enough people believe that y thinks x, then it is probably true that y thinks x. Is that fair? Judge for yourself.
        
        I don’t know you personally, neither do I know Harawira. All I can go by is what I see/read. The only reason you think Harawira thinks x is because of the reports in the MSM (unless I am mistaken and you know him personally). The same with comments about you. All I can go by are comments here. Yes, you have never said that you like goats. But neither did Harawira really say what was attributed to him. Yet somehow because it is reported in the media that Harawira thinks x, then it is true? Perhaps then, the only real flaw in my comment is that there isn’t a story in the MSM saying that PeteG likes goats (even if it is untrue). If there was, then more people would believe it, which, by your logic would make it true.
        
        felix …
        
        6 May 2011 at 3:52 pm
        
        “It’s obvious that no one has any idea of my views on goats, apart from felix acting like billy.”
        
        Not so, Pete. In fact there’s a growing consensus around your goat-related activities.
        
        ianmac mentioned that you might be a cock, and I’m not sure what that means but it’s all farmyard-related, isn’t it?
        
        PeteG …
        
        6 May 2011 at 4:01 pm
        
        It’s obvious you’re running out of flawed argument when you resort to that. Trying the direct flame approach and see if that works?
        
        no-one said you were the only one.
        
        If you concede I’m not the only one and that there may be many others it blows your wee game away a bit, doesn’t it.
        
        lprent …
        
        6 May 2011 at 4:21 pm
        
        Ummm looks like goat friday to me… Follows the week after good friday.
        
        PeteG …
        
        6 May 2011 at 4:43 pm
        
        You’re kidding, Good Friday was two weeks ago.
        
        felix …
        
        6 May 2011 at 5:05 pm
        
        “If you concede I’m not the only one and that there may be many others it blows your wee game away a bit, doesn’t it.”
        
        No, because I think you and others are wrong together.
        
        Durr.
the sprout 16

6 May 2011 at 8:51 am

great post – thanks for writing this Irish.
it helps a lot to know there are still a few sane, skeptical people out there.

Mallard’s post on Red Alert really underscored what an embittered has-been arsehole he’s become.
Daveo 17

6 May 2011 at 10:48 am

Looks like the lie is becoming a diplomatic incident now. Well done liars you’ve really done us all proud as a nation now.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/4970392/Harawiras-bin-Laden-comments-hit-Pakistan
- Colonial Viper 17.1
  
  6 May 2011 at 11:49 am
  
  Yeah the MSM liars didn’t look that far ahead.
  
  Now it’s taken a life of it’s own, as these things do, and threatens NZ’s reputation.
- higherstandard 17.2
  
  6 May 2011 at 2:12 pm
  
  Hone has no one to blame but himself, he should think twice before he opens his mouth – this is just another example in a long list of his fuck ups which suggests he’s a combination of a bit of a thickee and a stirrer.
  - felix 17.2.1
    
    6 May 2011 at 2:19 pm
    
    Kind of yeah.
    
    It was dumb* enough that he said what he did say, but that doesn’t give the media a license to make up other shit and pretend he said that too.
    
    *unless this is what he wanted in which case not** so dumb.
    
    **unless “what he wanted” was a dumb idea all along, in which case refer to the start of this comment.
    - ianmac 17.2.1.1
      
      6 May 2011 at 2:45 pm
      
      Hone reached the Pakistan and Brit news but they print his words without a slant that our MSM put on it. And I think that there is a certain amount of support for his position even when misrepresented.
      - PeteG 17.2.1.1.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 3:01 pm
        
        Do you support the position he took on bin Laden Ian?
        
        The position he then apologised for?
        
        felix 17.2.1.1.1.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 3:43 pm
        
        Those are two different things Pete.
        
        1. As I understand it he apologised for the way he expressed his opinion, and
        
        2. as you’re demonstrating on the other thread you have a very different idea of what his “position” was than I do.
        
        You’re asking whether I agree with something that I’m not at all certain exists, and even if it does I may define it differently to you. So there’s no possible answer to that really.
        
        If you sort out a straight question I’d be happy to give you a straight answer.
        
        felix …
        
        6 May 2011 at 5:08 pm
        
        Not interested in that course of action Pete? Shock I am.
        
        Puddleglum 17.2.1.1.1.2
        
        6 May 2011 at 7:22 pm
        
        PeteG,
        
        I have a slightly different take on this than Felix. I think, for good reasons, that Hone may well (indeed should) believe that Bin Laden was “a man who fought for the rights, the land and the freedom of his people”. It would be curious to believe otherwise since the evidence is almost overwhelming that that is exactly why Bin Laden was fighting.
        
        Here’s my view of Bin Laden, his beliefs, Bin Laden’s family’s beliefs (I know, there’s lots of them and they probably have different beliefs) and your beliefs about Hone’s beliefs.
        
        Judging by numerous releases (videos, recordings, statements, etc.) that appear to have come from Osama Bin Laden, I have every reason to believe that Bin Laden himself believed he was fighting a ‘good’ fight which, at least in part, involved liberating Saudi Arabia and Muslim’s in general (i.e., ‘freeing’ them) so that they could live Muslim lives in their lands without being dominated by foreigners.
        
        It also seems reasonable to believe that a number of members of Bin Laden’s family supported him (some of them were in his ‘compound’, some were his children, etc.). Therefore, it also seems reasonable that at least some of them believed what he believed – that he was fighting for freedom and to liberate ‘his people’, etc..
        
        When Bin Laden died, those same family members would, I believe, have mourned for him (they were family, after all). Part of that mourning was, therefore, for someone who was understood, by himself and by them, to be fighting for freedom for his people and for their lands.
        
        So, when Hone said that “they [bin laden’s family] mourn for a man who fought for the rights, the land and the freedom of his people” and “pursued independence for his people, his family and his tribe” this seems extraordinarily accurate, even a truism, unless we assume that Bin Laden’s motives were not genuine.
        
        But, once again, from his recordings, writings, etc. Bin Laden seemed pretty genuine about being motivated by concern for the ‘rights, land and freedom of his people’. Unless we have some conspiracy that Bin Laden was some sort of CIA agent provocateur then those do seem to be his motives. Of course, we might think that the means by which he chose to pursue those ends were grotesque and utterly unjustified but that doesn’t change what appears to be the fact that some such motivation was driving him.
        
        I’d agree that Hone was unwise to voice these almost self-evident truths because it would have been obvious that his political opponents – and those who have no sympathy with his other views concerning Maori sovereignty – would try to imply that his words were evidence for, not only that Hone believed that Bin Laden was motivated by such motives (as, quite obviously, were the Saudis on the planes, the London underground bombers, etc.) but also that he approved of the means by which Bin Laden pursued them. That’s one reason why politicians are routinely afraid to voice self-evident truths – they often go against some myth or other that has hold of the public imagination, for various reasons.
        
        Hone’s opponents (e.g., you) may genuinely believe that Hone does approve of the means Bin Laden used but Hone’s actions (e.g., becoming an MP rather than, for example, trying to organise a guerilla army) suggest that he is not himself predisposed to use those means. In other words, I can’t see the evidence from Hone’s actions that he would approve of Bin Laden’s means. Do you have such evidence?
        
        To try to clarify my argument here’s a starter for 10, PeteG: Do you think Bin Laden thought that he was fighting for the ‘rights, the land and the freedom of his people’?
        
        If ‘yes’, then you agree entirely with Hone’s comments quoted above. If ‘no’, then you must have some evidence that Bin Laden’s motives were not those he expressed, and that Bin Laden was either unaware of his true motivation or was part of some deception and had other reasons for his actions.
        
        PeteG …
        
        6 May 2011 at 11:17 pm
        
        I have no idea what bin Laden’s motivation was over a couple of decades.
        
        Bin Laden was outspoken against the Saudi government, he was banished and had his passport revoked.
        
        As a result of his dealings in and advocacy of violent extremist jihad, Osama bin Laden lost his Saudi citizenship in 1994 and was disowned by his billionaire family.
        
        So he didn’t exactly fight for the “rights, the land and the freedom of his people”. He buggered off to the Sudan and then to Afghanistan, countries of other people. You can debate whether he fought there for those people and their land, or for his own religious ambitions.
        
        Puddleglum …
        
        7 May 2011 at 8:39 pm
        
        Bin Laden was obviously concerned at the deployment of US troops in Saudi Arabia. Your quote is from the 9/11 Commission Report. In your link, however, in the section preceding (on Al Qaeda’s formation) you’ll note that the reason given there for his exile was his outspoken criticism of the Saudi government for allowing US troops on Saudi soil (i.e., not because of “his dealings in and advocacy of violent extremist jihad – after all, in Wahabi Saudi Arabia that’s a very common advocacy).
        
        It’s also well acknowledged (it appears in many of the tapes purported to be from him) that he supported Palestinians in their attempts to gain statehood and condemned the actions of Israel and presence of the US. Irrespective of your position on the Israel-Palestinian conflict, it’s clear Bin Laden was advocating Palestinians rights to their land and to be a free people.
        
        On the matter of religion, yes he undoubtedly was a very pious man and sees most of the ‘freedom fighting’ occurring in the Muslim world as part of some religious drama. But I don’t see how that is incompatible with him fighting for the “rights, the land adn the freedom of his people” (whether those people be Saudi’s or Muslims in general). After all, many WWII partisans fighting German occupation were committed communists and socialists and probably saw the battle as a political and ideological one (and part of an international and global battle). I don’t think anyone, however, would deny that they were freedom fighters. And, in Spain, the International Brigade were composed of foreigners (so, of course, was the fascist army – Italians and Germans) who were motivated by various values, ideologies and the like. Once again, I don’t think anyone would claim they weren’t fighting for the freedom of Spain and the Spanish people.
        
        I really don’t see why advocating jihad somehow means Bin Laden is not someone who fights for “the rights, the land and the freedom of his people”. It’s pretty clear, isn’t it, that in the last couple of decades his main enemy was western power exercised in Muslim lands? He opposed western power dominating, invading and taking over those lands, didn’t he? If ‘yes’, then isn’t it a very simple step to see that he was fighting for rights, land and freedom for ‘his’ people?
        
        I think the reason why people think that this would be a terrible thing to ascribe to Bin Laden is that, for some reason, they think that ascribing that motive necessitates ‘respecting’ or ‘approving’ of his means to achieve those rights and freedoms. Obviously it doesn’t. No-one has to concede that he’s a ‘good man’ or that what he did was ‘ok’ just because we acknowledge that he fought for what, in many circumstances, we would see as a good cause. The ‘ends’ might be fine (I, for one, certainly think that western powers – or any powers – should stop interfering in other people’s countries); but there’s still the means to consider.
        
        A ‘noble’ end doesn’t give a free moral pass to the means. In fact, in many, if not most, cases, it is the means that determine the overall moral content of someone’s actions, not the end for which they act (or for which they claim to act).
Armchair Worrier 18

6 May 2011 at 4:49 pm

Regardless of whether their was a slight misquotation of Hone’s words his sense is clear – the day that justice was served on the worst terrorist of modern times, he chooses to point out that his family will mourn him as a fighter for ‘the rights, the land and the freedom of his people”. The timing and word choice betray his sympathies.
This either shows an ignorance of recent history – OBL fought for the restoration of the medieval infidel free caliphate under the most repressive brand of Islam and was inarguably an enthusiast for the removal of the rights, lands and freedom of those who didnt happen to share his warped version of islam, or a deliberate alignment with ANY anti western movement no matter how violent their methods. Then again perhaps its both . ..
Jim in Tokyo 19

6 May 2011 at 4:57 pm

This just gets worse and worse. Did anybody actually watch the video? Obviously not readers of the NBR, otherwise they would have picked up on the fact that the NZPA article is also based on a fabricated quote:

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/bin-laden-freedom-fighter-harawira-nn-92331

““We have heard nothing but negative things about him from the Americans, but he fought for the self-determination of his people and for his beliefs,” Mr Harawira said.”

This was actually word for word a quote from the presenter of the show – Harawira said nothing of the sort. He was actually relatively diplomatic in his response:

“Indeed, despite what the media have said, his family, his tribe, his people are in mourning. They mourn for the man who fought for the rights, the land, the freedom of his people”.

As to why he went even this far, he helpfully bookends his comments by explaining TWICE that it is Maori protocol to honour all dead, a point which also got lost in the mainstream media scramble.

“We should not damn them in death, but acknowledge the positive aspects of life”.
- Pascal's bookie 19.1
  
  6 May 2011 at 5:04 pm
  
  Now there’s a classy bunch of commenters. A number of folks wishing Hone dead.
  
  Does Collins know?
Toby Keith 20

6 May 2011 at 5:35 pm

He called him a freedom fighter, Hone deserves all the crap that he is getting from the media and the public, to support that statement your not re4ally grounded in reality.
- ianmac 20.1
  
  6 May 2011 at 6:11 pm
  
  USA has sharp shooters.
  The enemy have snipers.
  The USA have Freedom Fighters.
  The people fighting invaders in Afghanistan are terrorists.
  The USA suffered 3,000 terrible losses in 9/11.
  Iraq suffered terrible civilian losses in excess of 500,000 but they were just collateral damage.
  USA carries out an extra-judicial assassination in another country.
  Others regard Justice and the right to a fair trial as indications of a fair society.
  
  Just depends on your point of view really.
  - PeteG 20.1.1
    
    6 May 2011 at 6:16 pm
    
    What’s your point of view on what Osama bin Laden was Ian?
    - Colonial Viper 20.1.1.1
      
      6 May 2011 at 6:29 pm
      
      Osama was some unarmed guy who got executed in cold blood by a heavily armed US special forces detachment, probably on orders.
      
      Osama is also a Weapon of Mass Distraction.
      
      He’s not going to help the US from circling down the drain and he’s not going to help the tens of millions of American unemployed, underemployed and living in poverty even as over a trillion US$ have been spent in military adventures in Iraq and Afghanistan.
      
      Lots of money available for the military industrial complex and their major shareholders, none for teachers, police, health and fire services.
      - joe90 20.1.1.1.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 6:36 pm
        
        One version, executed.
        
        Colonial Viper 20.1.1.1.1.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 6:43 pm
        
        Yeah, the President needed to assert political strength in the US, and capturing Osama would have led to a trial which would have been a major distraction for the Obama administration for months (as well as probably kept ratcheting up tensions with Pakistan).
        
        This way its a done deal, totally “surgical” and contained. And Obama gets political points for being a tough war time President who is not afraid of making tough calls.
        
        Pascal's bookie …
        
        6 May 2011 at 7:27 pm
        
        There is that, certainly. But that’s not all of it.
        
        Taking him alive would have entailed a lot more risk of failure. If the headlines had of been along the lines of “Dozens killed in botched raid” with the Whitehouse claiming that the house that exploded was where bin laden was hiding, and the Pakistanis going full bore ‘outrage against our sovereignty’?
        
        AQ could easily have announced it first, hailing the glorious martyrdom of obl, who refused to be taken by the infidel and detonated a prepared welcome for the infidel, taking out a squad of their finest crusaders blah blah blah.
        
        It’s complicated.
    - Pascal's bookie 20.1.1.2
      
      6 May 2011 at 6:31 pm
      
      Fairly accomplished practitioner of 4th generation warfare. Wahhabist. Developed and put into practice Qtibs (sp?) strategies. Charismatic by all accounts. Disciplined. Not a cartoon character.
      - rosy 20.1.1.2.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 6:51 pm
        
        Fairly accomplished practitioner of 4th generation warfare
        
        who aimed to take down the US financially rather than militarily, hence the symbolic target of the world trade center and targeting transportation systems. He may well have succeeded… the endgame is still to be played out.
        
        Pascal's bookie 20.1.1.2.1.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 7:00 pm
        
        Yeah, they aren’t even hiding anymore. There was a discussion paper they published a while ago, in english, laughing at western responses to ‘failed’ attempts on airliners. Cost to AQ was around 40K, cost to west in terms of heightened security measures, millions/year.
        
        I’ll try and track it down
        
        Colonial Viper …
        
        6 May 2011 at 7:15 pm
        
        Imagine crippling or destroying a US$4M Abrams tank using a US$200 IED based off a couple of salvaged Saddam Hussein era land mines. That’s a 20,000:1 pay off. Doesn’t get much better than that.
        
        Osama Bin Laden has effectively a trillion dollars to the American federal debt with a spend of just a couple of million (if that), and the cost to the Americans is still climbing.
        
        Pascal's bookie …
        
        6 May 2011 at 7:16 pm
        
        Here tis:
        
        http://securityinnovator.com/index.php?articleID=15989&sectionID=27
        
        not 40k, 4k.
        
        More editions of the purported AQ mag here:
        
        http://publicintelligence.net/complete-inspire-al-qaeda-in-the-arabian-peninsula-aqap-magazine/
        
        Interesting stuff. I’m mainly interested by the vast gulf between the strategic narratives outlined in their propaganda and ours.
        
        rosy …
        
        6 May 2011 at 8:00 pm
        
        Thanks, that is really important information. I don’t understand why politicians in the west are not making clear how the Jihad strategy is working. Not sure how it would play out in the court of public opinion, but it can’t be any worse that the ‘clash of civilisations’ narrative, which incidentally the Arab Spring is proving so wrong.
        
        Pascal's bookie …
        
        6 May 2011 at 8:26 pm
        
        but it can’t be any worse that the ‘clash of civilisations’ narrative, which incidentally the Arab Spring is proving so wrong.
        
        Great point!
        
        I often think, looking at how the US speaks about the conflict, that it is being fought mainly for domestic reasons. It gets used as a prop in the internal battle over what the US is, and much of the propaganda is aimed more at getting victories in that fight than in the, err, other one.
        
        joe90 …
        
        6 May 2011 at 9:40 pm
        
        in that fight
        
        I take it that you’re referring to this fight.
        
        btw, the book is free.
        
        rosy …
        
        6 May 2011 at 9:59 pm
        
        Yes, I’ve always thought that the clash of civilisations narrative is to unite the disunited states under, at the time, Bush. All wrapped in the flag of rabid patriotism. A trick that has been used for eons and the public still falls for it. Everywhere.
        
        joe90 …
        
        6 May 2011 at 8:13 pm
        
        Fascinating PB, thanks.
        
        ianmac …
        
        6 May 2011 at 9:13 pm
        
        The $4k program would actually have played into the hands of unscrupulous USA politicians. “You see folks? We are under threat. You must get used to more powers for Homeland security because there is much to fear, fear, fear. And who knows your subjection gives me more power!”
    - ianmac 20.1.1.3
      
      6 May 2011 at 7:23 pm
      
      Damn . I wrote a fulsome reply to that Pete and it vanished.
      Summary. Read years ago about bin Laden’s early road-building life for his adopted Afghanistan.
      His fight against Russia for USA. The oil pipeline USA was blocked from having across Afghanistan. Bin Laden the Freedom fighter for USA becomes named as a terrorist. 9/11 carried out mostly by Saudis from whom bin Laden had been long since disengaged. 3,000 innocents killed. Iraq lost hundreds of thousands of innocents but they were just collateral. Have to accept bin Laden had a hand in 9/11 but never know now because they killed him. USA invades Afghanistan. Pipeline built by USA for USA. bin Laden the focus of the rhetoric. Hated universally.
      Like most people bin Laden was a mixture of good and bad. His good stuff is forgotten. His bad stuff is evil by Western standards. Would USA have found another excuse to invade Iraq/Afghanistan if not bin Laden? Probably. Should he have been brought to trial .Yes. Should G W Bush be brought to trial for the same reasons? Yes.
      Christian, Islam arguments are eternal and usually hopeless.
      
      Try bin Laden in an International Court and it would be clearer.
      Am I glad that he was killed in such a way? No.
      Was he a freedom fighter? In many ways yes.
      Was he responsible for terrorist acts? So they tell me.
      Did he believe in what he was doing? Yep. Was he right to do all that he has done. Dunno.
      Was he better/worse than many other Leaders? What do you think?
      - PeteG 20.1.1.3.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 7:55 pm
        
        Thanks Ian. I agree or don’t disagree with much of this but with a bit of a different slant to some things.
        
        He may have freedom fighting in mind at times but it was a very narrow freedom that was destructive or repressive for many people.
        He has claimed responsibility for 9/11.
        I’m not “glad” he was killed in that way but I’m not sorry that he’s dead.
        I don’t think he was “right” to do what he has done, in the main he was a murdering bastard, like Hitler (who also did good things for Germany and many Germans).
        
        Actually he wasn’t a freedom fighter or murdering bastard, he got others to do his dirty work.
        
        Colonial Viper 20.1.1.3.1.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 8:22 pm
        
        Actually he wasn’t a freedom fighter or murdering bastard, he got others to do his dirty work.
        
        Pretty sure that Osama has killed his share of Soviet troopers, and done so personally, face to face.
        
        NickS …
        
        6 May 2011 at 9:31 pm
        
        Nyet.
        
        In Steve Coll’s book Ghost Wars Osama’s personal fighting experience was apparently limited to one battle, where his base of operations at the time was attacked directly by the Soviets. Osama was primarily a strategist, funder and Islamic scholar and aside from that one battle he staid out of the firing lines encamped along the Afghan-Pakistan borders for most of the USSR occupation of Afghanistan, where the Arab volunteers, arms and money from the Pakistani’s and the Gulf States streamed across the border.
        
        Puddleglum …
        
        6 May 2011 at 10:45 pm
        
        Hi NickS,
        
        Jason Burke obviously disagrees with Steve Coll – see point 5
        
        NickS …
        
        6 May 2011 at 11:05 pm
        
        Forgot about the second battle 😛
        Thanks.
        
        Though I think Burke’s wrong about the arms and training supplies, but since I no longer have Ghost Wars on me, I can’t check that one out…
        
        What’s more interesting though is the veracity of prior reports on Bin Laden’s health per his kidney problems, as general word from the media was that he needed dialysis. But if his renal issues weren’t major as Burke claims, then drugs would probably easily deal with it and mean Bin Laden could far more easily hide.
        
        ianmac 20.1.1.3.1.2
        
        6 May 2011 at 8:55 pm
        
        PeteG @ 7:55 Like G W Bush? Would a person foreign to USA be justified in slipping into the country and killing the President for the distant killings that he authorised?
        
        PeteG …
        
        6 May 2011 at 9:10 pm
        
        I don’t know if justified is the right word (it could be) but I think it would at least be understandable. I’m aware the US is seen as an invading country by many Iraqis and Afghanis (I sort of accepted going into Afghanistan but was totally against the Iraqi invasion).
        
        It’s totally unjustified when the target it is a bunch of innocent people in a couple of skyscrapers.
        
        Andrew Geddis touches on some of this here.
        
        rosy …
        
        6 May 2011 at 9:49 pm
        
        Yes I too accepted that the US had a right to chase OBL down in Afganistan, but had no right whatsover to go into Iraq. That is not the same as saying I agree with how the US handled their operation in Afganistan.
        
        I’m totally in agreement with Andrew Geddis.
        
        Vicky32 …
        
        6 May 2011 at 10:02 pm
        
        Oh Pete, why is it that you and, it seems almost everyone else in this country, main stream media, woman in the street, man in the takeaway bar takes it for granted that OBL was, as the media keep saying “the architect of 9/11”?
        It’s a ‘popular misconception’ that he took responsibility.
        
        PeteG …
        
        6 May 2011 at 11:04 pm
        
        The US and UK governments and OBL himself claim he is responsible.
        
        The Terrorist Threat Confronting the United States
        The evidence linking Al-Qaeda and Bin Laden to the attacks of September 11 is clear and irrefutable.
        
        RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE TERRORIST ATROCITIES IN THE UNITED STATES, 11 SEPTEMBER 2001
        . The clear conclusions reached by the government are:
        Usama Bin Laden and Al Qaida, the terrorist network which he heads, planned and carried out the atrocities on 11 September 2001;
        
        Osama claims responsibility for 9/11
        Al Qaeda terrorist network leader Osama bin Laden said in an audiotape broadcast by the Al Jazeera satellite channel that he himself had assigned 19 people for the Sep 11, 2001, attacks in the US.
        
        Bin Laden claims responsibility for 9/11
        Al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden appeared in a new message aired on an Arabic TV station Friday night, for the first time claiming direct responsibility for the 2001 attacks against the United States.
        
        The Voice of Reason …
        
        6 May 2011 at 11:12 pm
        
        Wikipedia beg to differ:
        
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_for_the_September_11_attacks
        
        ianmac …
        
        6 May 2011 at 11:51 pm
        
        Interesting VOR. We have to trust (?) that the Intelligence Agencies got it right in blaming bin Laden – unless there were compelling reasons to have a focus on one person especially one associated with Afghanistan – oil pipeline and all that.
        And quite possible for bin Laden to claim responsibility after the fact for motives of his own. Pity he can’t be questioned by someone who could be trusted.
William Joyce 21

6 May 2011 at 6:34 pm

Not wanting to get into what Hone said or didn’t say, or whether US foreign policy is good or bad, or if he received justice or was illegally executed…..
The idea that Osama was a freedom fighter is a misuse of the term. He was not fighting for democracy, the right of women to vote, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and so many other forms of self-determination.
He “war” was a war of religion and the only politics that interested him were those associated with his religious goals.
He fought for the freedom to practice religion, but only his religion.
He fought for the freedom to practice Islam and only his form of Islam.
He fought for the freedom to remove the infidel from “Muslim lands” and would ultimately want them gone from all lands.
He fought for the freedom to “remove” all Muslim “compromisers”, all those who did not follow his form of Islam.
He fought for the freedom to eliminate the infidel from the world either through conversion or the sword.

It is wrong, and ill informed, to label him a freedom fighter.
- Colonial Viper 21.1
  
  6 May 2011 at 6:45 pm
  
  Actually, Bin Laden fought to free Afghanistan and her people from an oppressive occupying foreign military superpower* which had invaded his adopted homeland. So yeah, Osama was definitely and definitively a Freedom Fighter of the day.
  
  *Not the USA.
  - William Joyce 21.1.1
    
    6 May 2011 at 6:58 pm
    
    The infidels were in a Muslim land.
    If the situation had been such you would have seen that he was not fighting for the right of self-determination for Afghans. After the Russians left, if the Afghans had voted en masse to establish a secular state with freedom of religion you would have seen OBL fighting that democratic Afghan state instead.
    But that was never tested by circumstances/history so people make the mistake of thinking he was fighting for the freedom of Afghanistan.
    - Colonial Viper 21.1.1.1
      
      6 May 2011 at 7:09 pm
      
      I’m sorry William, but Freedom Fighters don’t have to fight for the United State’s ideals of democracy, self determination and freedom. They fight for their own ideals and values.
      
      Even if the United States trained and armed them anyway because it was convenient to US foreign policy at the time.
      - William Joyce 21.1.1.1.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 7:21 pm
        
        Well, CV, the ideas of democracy, self-determination, freedom etc pre-date the US and are not owned by the US.
        Just because the US spout these ideas (and then don’t live up to them) does not make them American.
        “They fight for their own ideals and values.” – you missed my point. It is quite possible that he would have opposed them if their “own ideals and values.” disagreed with his.
        He would not have sanctioned them having the freedom to choose things he did not agree with. Therefore, he was not fighting for freedom. Therefore, he was not a Freedom Fighter.
        
        Colonial Viper 21.1.1.1.1.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 7:25 pm
        
        Well, call him whatever you want then, but I distinctly recall Reagan calling his bunch Freedom Fighters. Fighting against an oppressive dictatorial foreign Communist state.
        
        rosy 21.1.1.1.1.2
        
        6 May 2011 at 8:12 pm
        
        He would not have sanctioned them having the freedom to choose things he did not agree with. Therefore, he was not fighting for freedom. Therefore, he was not a Freedom Fighter.
        
        Agree. And his habit of moving into failed or divided states for protection and influence pretty much proves it. Especially supporting and supported by the repressive Taliban that did not have support of the country outside of what they could hold with terror, and his move to Sudan. That was also the US biggest mistake with the Iraq war – creating another failed state for AQ to do more dirty work – note the Sunni/Shia divide here that also show there was no sanctioning of freedoms.
        
        btw: Ianmac I don’t know how you can say you dunno if he was right to do all that he has done. The US is wrong to blow up thousands of innocents and destroy nations for a bigger political objective and so was Osama.
        
        ianmac …
        
        6 May 2011 at 8:33 pm
        
        Yes Rosy. How would the World react if a force swept into USA and assassinated their President as the perpetrator of those crimes? Would you say it was right to kill the President?
        
        rosy …
        
        6 May 2011 at 10:07 pm
        
        No, I would say it’s wrong to kill the president, just like I can say it was wrong to kill OBL.
        
        But that’s not the point – the point was you said you don’t know if OBL was right to do all the things he’s done. I can’t see how there is any doubt that his killing of innocents is wrong – WTC, London, Madrid and the rest. Wrong. End of. Murder is wrong no matter who does it and for whatever reason. I guess that’s just how I think, I’m not going to argue it.
    - Pascal's bookie 21.1.1.2
      
      6 May 2011 at 7:20 pm
      
      Just saying, but there is absolutely no reason to believe that Afghans would vote en masse to establish a secular state with freedom of religion.
      - Colonial Viper 21.1.1.2.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 7:23 pm
        
        Americans have a bad habit of not recognising democratically elected governments if they are unfriendly.
        
        In the US value system, being democratic is totally optional. But being friendly to the US is totally necessary.
      - William Joyce 21.1.1.2.2
        
        6 May 2011 at 7:26 pm
        
        @PB : Absolutely, of course not, not in a month of Sundays.
        
        Pascal's bookie 21.1.1.2.2.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 7:29 pm
        
        So what are we for? Self determination?
        
        William Joyce …
        
        6 May 2011 at 8:03 pm
        
        Just for clarity, I started my post with….
        “Not wanting to get into what Hone said or didn’t say, or whether US foreign policy is good or bad, or if he received justice or was illegally executed…..”
        Can I add to that
        – I am making no statement (at least not now) about whether western ideas of freedom are good or bad.
        – I am making no statement (at least not now) about what Afghanistan (whatever that means given it’s composition) should do or not do regarding any of those values.
        I am merely pointing out the contradiction of calling someone a freedom fighter who was not interested in providing freedom.
        As I state below, the best we can say about him is that he fought for the liberation of Afghanistan from a Soviet invasion.
- rosy 21.2
  
  6 May 2011 at 6:53 pm
  
  Well said William Joyce. He may have been a freedom fighter once upon a time, but he resigned from that role a long, long time ago.
- ianmac 21.3
  
  6 May 2011 at 7:36 pm
  
  William” “The idea that Osama was a freedom fighter is a misuse of the term.”
  The freedoms that you list are your view of what freedoms you think should be and suggests that other people are bad if they don’t subscribe to them.
  Freedom could be just the right of a person or group to have self-determination about how they do anything. If someone especially those outside your country tries to impose a different belief system then you might fight for freedom is to protect your beliefs.
  If some one tries to tell your country that your women must dress in certain ways, or worship in certain ways or have a different justice system, I imagine you would want to fight them to defend your way.
  On reflection the things you list above would be good to fight for for those who are passionate about their beliefs.
  Off to buy my fish and chips.
  - William Joyce 21.3.1
    
    6 May 2011 at 7:50 pm
    
    Ianmac, instead of reading day old news around your fish and chips, read a book on how to make an argument. (Then try reading comprehension).
    You will find that I did not promote those “ideals”. So my personal beliefs about them are not the issue nor was I suggesting that Afghanistan should adopt them. Understand?
    Freedom involves the right to choose. I used examples of what the west describe as freedoms to show instances of the sort of things that OBL would not have been happy with. And should Afghanistan have chosen (which they probably wouldn’t) then he would have opposed the choice of the Afghan people and therefore their freedom to choose. Therefore he was not fighting for freedom.
    At best he could be described as fighting for the liberation of Afghanistan from the Soviet occupation. To claim more than that misses his motivation.
    I hope the fish and chips were nice.
    - Carol 21.3.1.1
      
      6 May 2011 at 8:19 pm
      
      Philosophy 101: “Freedom” means nothing as a word on its own. It can mean “freedom from xxxx” or “freedom to xxxxx”. So WJ, you are just using the notion of “freedom” in a very specific way and with meanings it has in a very specific cultural context.
      - William Joyce 21.3.1.1.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 9:15 pm
        
        Absolutely Carol.
        I was not discussing freedom as some ethereal, abstract concept, in the way that it falls so readily off the lips of Americans, without definitions or conditions. [“Even in freedom there is no freedom” – please discuss for Phil 101 midterm :-)]
        The use of the term freedom fighter infers some one who is fighting for the freedom to choose X or Y. They would not have been truly to chose either X or Y IF either X or Y was against his wishes.
        If (X AND “OBL doesn’t allow X”) then Y, else Y
        – also Philosophy 101.
        All OBL was doing was fighting for is the removal of one form of unchosen government for another form of unchosen government.
        
        Carol 21.3.1.1.1.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 9:23 pm
        
        Or, William, it can mean fighting for freedom from a specific kind of repression or government. Your focus on “choice” is just one form, while you don’t rate the other freedom from. But that indicates your western cultural values. Also the focus on freedom to choose suggests western individualistic values too. For some people freedom might mean freedom to eat regularly as supplied to them by a fairly autocratic government that chooses for them what they will eat.
        
        William Joyce …
        
        6 May 2011 at 10:15 pm
        
        Well, food for thought, Carol.
        Again to labour the Phil 101 theme, perhaps we are constrained by language here. A fighter who “frees from” one oppression only to replace it with another is just a “steward” on a slave ship who has given you a window seat.
        Perhaps I will have to accept that to everyone else FF is just inadequate short hand for “a person who liberates a people group from one form of oppression, regardless of whether that person goes on to institute another form of oppression”.
        I guess, all I can say is that I won’t dignify the man with the phrase freedom fighter anymore than I will call John Key an advocate for the poor.
    - ianmac 21.3.1.2
      
      6 May 2011 at 8:47 pm
      
      William. I was not really trying to make an argument and yes the f&c were excellent; very crisp and fresh.
      I was really just considering the idea of freedom and what it means depending on where you stand. Abortion is a crime in some eyes. Abortion is a rightful freedom in the eyes of others. So deciding on just where the right to be a freedom fighter is so hard to be sure right/wrong, I was just musing rather that setting up an argument.
      What bin Laden did early on was more than building roads and fighting Russians then fighting Americans. But it was a long time since my fish and chips had any print on it at all, so I would have to go back and read a book to develop credible info.
      Anyway your question about freedom fighters was food for thought, without the salt.
      
      Had another thought. Do you think that there is a pattern? Do those who support right leaning ideas have more or less support for the rightness of killing bin Laden, compared to social democratic left leaning folk?
      How about for Freedom Fighting?
      - William Joyce 21.3.1.2.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 9:47 pm
        
        Glad the F&C were good 🙂
        “considering the idea of freedom and what it means depending on where you stand.” – As I see it, freedom has nothing to do with where you stand. Where you stand, as you put it, is a matter of perspective and is all about what you see to be true.
        Freedom is about the room to move with regard that belief without facing adverse consequences.
        I think you are right in seeing a pattern. It’s like the debate over anthro. climate, etc. Which is a shame because it causes people to take up positions, not based on reason but who they identify with. That identity can be influenced by education and the schools of thought you were educated in.
        Perhaps I have not been educated in the right schools of thought that would call someone who would force a group of people to conform to his will a freedom fighter. It just seems incongruous to me.
- Puddleglum 21.4
  
  6 May 2011 at 8:12 pm
  
  Sorry William, but this just doesn’t hold together as an argument.
  
  If freedom means anything in a political sense, it is the right of a people to determine their own path without the interference of another people. If the path they ‘determine’ by their internal processes is, from the outside, a path that limits freedom of the individual that in no way bears on whether at the political level their initial fight with occupiers was for their freedom.
  
  As any classical liberal will tell you (at the individual level) freedom may not be used well, but it remains freedom.
  
  You’re confusing a notion of ‘freedom’ cast in relation to the behaviour of individuals with the usual notion of freedom that is cast at the political, social level. The latter is why we talk about “free, sovereign states” to distinguish them from ‘dependencies’, ‘colonies’, etc.. The phrase ‘freedom fighter’ is always – and certainly in this context – referring to this latter level. It’s got nothing to do with the relative freedom of individuals within a “free, sovereign state”.
  - PeteG 21.4.1
    
    6 May 2011 at 8:25 pm
    
    If freedom means anything in a political sense, it is the right of a people to determine their own path without the interference of another people.
    
    It gets complicated when a minority (or maybe a majority) of a people take control and oppress (or worse) some of the people. Nazi Germany is a prime example.
    - ianmac 21.4.1.1
      
      6 May 2011 at 9:37 pm
      
      24.4.1 Like NAct doing the poor and dispossessed?
  - Puddleglum 21.4.2
    
    6 May 2011 at 8:26 pm
    
    Another way I could make the same point is to note that places like Hong Kong (and its people), under British rule, was not free.
    
    Nevertheless, so far as I’m aware, individuals in Hong Kong’s population enjoyed relatively high levels of personal freedom. But, as a people, they were not free – they were ruled by Britain (i.e., by another people – who, themselves, may, at the individual level have been more or less free than individuals in Hong Kong). Someone who was fighting for the independence of Hong Kong from Britain would have been a ‘freedom fighter’, even if the kind of free state they wanted would reintroduce the binding of women’s feet.
    - ianmac 21.4.2.1
      
      6 May 2011 at 8:50 pm
      
      Great reads thanks Puddlegum. Do you think bin Laden could be regarded as a freedom fighter? Could his friends and family have regarded him so?
    - William Joyce 21.4.2.2
      
      6 May 2011 at 9:58 pm
      
      Ok, I get the distinction between the two levels and therefore “Someone who was fighting for the independence of Hong Kong from Britain would have been a ‘freedom fighter’”.
      But the phrase infers a nobility of cause and action. This was witnessed by the reaction of so many to what they think Hone said. So to use it to refer to a person who would fight one power to “free” a country so that it can be subject to another imposed regime is not what people would understand as a freedom fighter. If this is some specialized jargon phrase that means something different to the words it uses them obviously I have it wrong.
      - wtl 21.4.2.2.1
        
        7 May 2011 at 9:33 am
        
        FFS, all this argument about the precise meaning of ‘freedom fighter’ is utterly pointless since Harawira never actually said ‘freedom fighter’ . He was speaking Maori, not English. The argument should be about meaning of the Maori words used, not the the meaning of the words used in someone’s English translation.
        
        Colonial Viper 21.4.2.2.1.1
        
        7 May 2011 at 11:16 am
        
        True.
joe90 22

6 May 2011 at 7:13 pm

The Battle for Tora Bora

How Osama bin Laden slipped from our grasp: The definitive account.
weka 23

7 May 2011 at 11:00 am

Does anyone have a direct link to the original Harawira video? The ones in the post are now out of date and I can’t find the interview on TVNZ.
- weka 23.1
  
  7 May 2011 at 11:05 am
  
  Found the excerpt on Stuff, but would still like to see the whole interview if anyone has the direct link to the specific Te Karere episode.
  
  http://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/local-news/national-news/4964292/Harawira-honours-bin-Laden-as-freedom-fighter
weka 24

7 May 2011 at 11:30 am

Here’s a transcript from the Stuff excerpt of the Te Karare interview. I agree with what was said by an earlier commenter, that this is an English subtitle version of sentiments being expressed originally in Maori. With my limited understanding of te reo I’d say that the subtitles are a simplified version.

TK: First your thoughts on the death of Osama bin Laden.

HH: It is custom for Maori to honour and mourn the deceased, so I acknowledge him and bid him farewell. Return to your ancestors who wait for you beyond the veil of death.

TK: We have heard nothing but negative things about him from the Americans, but he fought for self-determination of his people and for his beliefs.

HH: Indeed, despite what the media has said, his family, his tribe, his people are in mourning. They mourn for the man who fought for the rights, the lands and the freedom of his people. We should not damn them in death, but acknowledge the positive aspects of life.
- PeteG 24.1
  
  7 May 2011 at 12:02 pm
  
  I’m happy to damn OBL in death. He was responsible for the deaths of many innocent people.
  - weka 24.1.1
    
    7 May 2011 at 12:20 pm
    
    You’re entitled to your own personal beliefs about what is an appropriate response to someone’s death. What’s at issue is why so many kiwis don’t want to learn about Maori beliefs about what is appropriate. And why they’re not free to express them.
    - PeteG 24.1.1.1
      
      7 May 2011 at 12:33 pm
      
      They are free to express them. And they have to accept the consequences if they want to try and attract a party vote.
      
      From what I’ve seen there are varying opinions on what is appropriate and what Maori beliefs are on it. Harawira and Walker seem a minority even amongst Maori on that (and it’s notable that Harawira saw fit to offer an apology). Not just competing MPs like Jones and Henare, but also online commentators like Joshua Hitchcock, and Morgan Godfery who said:
      
      “I have no problem with Hone’s view that Maori respect the dead. But respect falls short of homage. I am really, really disappointed that Hone has made this mistake. ”
      
      And
      
      “Angry, arrogant Harawira may be gone, but stupid Harawira is still with us.”
      - Colonial Viper 24.1.1.1.1
        
        7 May 2011 at 12:46 pm
        
        From what I’ve seen there are varying opinions on what is appropriate and what Maori beliefs are on it.
        
        That’s because Maori language and traditions can vary greatly even across different parts of the same iwi.
      - weka 24.1.1.1.2
        
        7 May 2011 at 1:45 pm
        
        “They are free to express them. ”
        
        I’m not sure they are. If Maori are consistently misquoted and misrepresented in the MSM, they’re not really free to express their beliefs and world views without negative repercussions. By negative repercussions I’m not talking about people disagreeing with them or condeming them. I’m talking about their words and views being so distorted that the people that end up judging them don’t know what they are judging. Also, if non-Maori won’t make the effort to understand Maori world views in context, then they don’t have the right to make judgements. What we’re seeing this week is just more of the same old racism that’s endemic here thanks to the MSM.
        
        “Not just competing MPs like Jones and Henare, but also online commentators like Joshua Hitchcock, and Morgan Godfery who said:”
        
        So? Are you saying that Harawira is wrong, that his statements in the above transcript don’t reflect a Maori world view just because some people disagree with him?
        
        Besides, how do you know that any of the people you’ve seen commenting have heard what Harawira actually said as opposed to what the Herald etc said he said? Two very different things.
        
        The thing that pisses me off about this situation is that Harawira should have been free to say what he wants and let his comments stand, and then the people that disagree could have had an interesting debate about the different world views at play here, why Maori see the world the way they do and have the protocols and responses they do. They’re not actually as radical as the MSM are making out. The problem is that we are still unable as a society to have a conversation that includes intelligent understanding of things Maori. That is the real shame this week.
        
        PeteG 24.1.1.1.2.1
        
        7 May 2011 at 2:15 pm
        
        If Maori are consistently misquoted and misrepresented in the MSM,
        
        It’s not just Maori that think they are misquoted and misrepresented if they are reported in the MSM, most people don’t see reports on them as they wished.
        
        Also, if non-Maori won’t make the effort to understand Maori world views in context, then they don’t have the right to make judgements.
        
        If Hone doesn’t want to make the effort to understand voter response to whatever he chooses to say then he won’t get votes. Non-Maori (and Maori) can choose what they want to understand, or not. Most of the public don’t and won’t take their time – especially those who currently don’t vote, they ones that Harawira and Sykes are hoping will give them a party vote. They have to earn votes, not expect the disillusioned to take the time to see things the Mana way.
        
        Mana is earned, not a chosen label.

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Skeptical Science is partnering with Gigafact to produce fact briefs — bite-sized fact checks of trending claims. This fact brief was written by Sue Bin Park from the Gigafact team in collaboration with members from our team. You can submit claims you think need checking via the tipline. Are most glaciers ...

Skeptical Science

13 hours ago
It’s not (just) about the economy, stupid.

In 1992 James Carville, Bill Clinton’s lead strategist, hung a sign on the wall of the Democratic candidate’s campaign office in Little Rock, Arkansas. It had three lines on it to focus the team on the key vote-swinging issues and one of those lines would become so famous it’s turned ...

PunditBy Tim Watkin

21 hours ago
Let’s Make Things Better

If you're down and out and you feel really hurtCome on over to the place where I workAnd all your loneliness, I'll try to sootheI'll play the blues for youLyrics: Albert King.Often, in these newsletters, I tell you about what is wrong. You know the sort of thing - oh ...

Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel

22 hours ago
Floating a few ideas

Hello! Here comes the Saturday edition of More Than A Feilding, catching you up on anything you may have missed.Share Read more ...

More Than A FeildingBy David Slack

1 day ago
Our Thousand-Year Struggle Over Technology and Prosperity

A new book challenges how we need to think about technological innovation.Last week’s column mentioned the three 2024 Nobel laureates in economics. The column focused only on the 2012 book Why Nations Fail by Daron Acemoglu and James Robinson with little reference to Simon Johnson, although the three have worked ...

PunditBy Brian Easton

1 day ago
Rebutting 33 False Claims About Solar, Wind, and Electric Vehicles thanks to the Sabin Center for Cl...

Earlier this year our volunteer editor Marc Kodack spotted an impressive answer to climate change solutions denial, "Rebutting 33 False Claims About Solar, Wind, and Electric Vehicles," which he included in our weekly climate research survey. Written by Matthew Eisenson, Jacob Elkin, Andy Fitch, Matthew Ard, Kaya Sittinger & Samuel ...

Skeptical Science

2 days ago
An expert walks into a bar

Quiz1. On what study was Mike King basing his assertion that Alcohol is not a problem for people with mental issues. It’s actually the solution ?a. Klein, Sawyer, Chomsky et al; Harvard, 2002b. Black Brown and Bleu; Yale, 1999c. Bloomfield, Verall, Ardern et al, Otago 2022d. Homer, Lenny, Carl and ...

More Than A FeildingBy David Slack

2 days ago
The High Court says “Land Back”

Way back in 1839, the New Zealand Company bought the area that is now Nelson from local iwi and hapu. As part of the deal, they promised that Māori would retain their homes, fields, and burial grounds, and that in addition, 10% of the land in the planned township and ...

No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant

2 days ago
US military-industrial-sports complex.

A US friend of mine wrote on social media about attending a Homecoming football game at her niece’s Red State university. Although the referees stunk and her team lost, my friend said that she enjoyed her visit, especially the halftime … Continue reading → ...

KiwipoliticoBy Pablo

2 days ago
The Hoon around the week to November 1

The podcast above of the weekly ‘Hoon’ webinar for paying subscribers on Thursday night features co-hosts & talking about the week’s news with:The Kākā’s climate correspondent on the latest climate news, including research showing the lethality of gas hobs and research on the health effects of climate ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

2 days ago
‘Get ready for more landlord buying’

The RBNZ sees the potential for a spike in demand from landlords. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāKia ora. Long stories short, here’s my top six things to note in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and poverty on Friday, November 1: The RBNZ has warned the Government’s tax changes ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

2 days ago
Alcohol and Mental Health

Are you so lonely?You don't even know meBut you'd like to stone meMr Writer, why don't you tell it like it is?Why don't you tell it like it really isWhy don't you tell it how it really isBefore you go on home?Writers: Stuart Cable, Richard Mark Jones, Kelly Jones, Marshall ...

Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel

2 days ago
Weekly Roundup 1-November-2024

Wow, we’re in November already and it’s a Friday so welcome to another round-up of interesting stories about what’s happening in Auckland and other cities. Feel free to add your links in the comments! This post, like all our work, is brought to you by a largely volunteer crew and ...

Greater AucklandBy Greater Auckland

2 days ago
A Mysterious Sound

Hi,Thanks for all your feedback to Hayden Donnell’s fantasy of communal living. “Camping in summer is really the only time I get to experience village life and I love it so much,” said Michelle. “You’ve infuriated me by writing the article that’s been in my head only much better than ...

David FarrierBy David Farrier

2 days ago
Toxic positivity and toxicity in the kitchen

Long stories short, here’s the top six news items of note in climate news for Aotearoa this week, and a discussion above between Bernard Hickey and The Kākā’s climate correspondent Cathrine Dyer:A study looking at psychological distress associated with climate change has stimulated discussion about the insistent demands for ‘hope’ ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

2 days ago
Geoffrey Miller: New Zealand’s breakthrough free trade deal with the Gulf

New Zealand’s new free trade agreement with the Gulf Cooperation Council is a major win for both sides. Todd McClay, New Zealand’s trade minister, announced the long-awaited deal on Thursday with his counterparts in Doha, Qatar. It is a remarkable, yet also surprising sudden success: the genesis of the agreement ...

Democracy ProjectBy Geoffrey Miller

2 days ago
Todd McClay wins breakthrough for women in Saudi Arabia

In a major international breakthrough, New Zealand has negotiated a free trade agreement with Saudi Arabia and other Arabian Peninsula countries, which includes a provision requiring them to uphold the UN Convention on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women. Trade Minister Todd McClay signed the agreement in Doha overnight. The ...

PolitikBy Richard Harman

2 days ago
Gordon Campbell on America’s fear of foreigners

Mike King’s latest comments about the relationship between alcohol and mental health – according to King, alcohol does more good than harm – raises red flags once again about this organisation, and the quality of the “counselling” it provides. Here’s what the scientific research says. The latest example of King’s ...

WerewolfBy ScoopEditor

2 days ago
Skeptical Science New Research for Week #44 2024

Open access notables Communicating the most accurate and reliable science on climate change to society: A survey of editors from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, Molina & Abadal Abadal, Geoscience Communication: This study focuses on the perspectives of scientists involved in the IPCC AR5 and AR6 synthesis reports, examining ...

Skeptical Science

3 days ago
Gumboot Friday’s Founder Says Drugs and Alcohol Is A “Solution”

This afternoon, I turned to the fellow sitting near me and called out:“Guess what? A guy who runs a charity for mental health just said alcohol is a solution!”And his eyes popped out…his mouth opened ajar.That gave me some satisfaction - only because this person has zero care when it ...

Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tui

3 days ago
What can you do about bad journalism?

Day after day of David Seymour being accorded media time and attention like he’s doing this stuff in good faith and advancing these ideas in earnest. Come on. He’s a cosplaying libertarian who is really just a glove puppet for anti-democratic capitalist pigs. Read more ...

More Than A FeildingBy David Slack

3 days ago
A collapse in police legitimacy

Last week, the government had a big wank about police raids in Ōpōtiki, crowing about "gangs" and "drugs" and "law and order". Unfortunately the police did exactly the same shit they did in the Urewera terror raids 17 years ago, dragging people off in front of their kids and terrorising ...

No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant

3 days ago
2024 Reading Summary: October (+ Writing Update)

No, I haven’t vanished from the Internet. Or died. Completed reads for October: The Castle of Otranto, by Horace Walpole The Sidereal Messenger of Galileo Galilei, by Galileo Galilei and Johannes Kepler Jurgen, by James Branch Cabell A very quiet reading month, and a very quiet writing month ...

A Phuulish FellowBy strda221

3 days ago
Suicide Rates Continue To Climb (Because We Are Not Treating Suicidal Patients)

Our suicide rates are skyrocketing again, and I’m going to spare you the faux-shock I could put on here, given that it would be frankly more surprising to me if our death toll had gone in the other direction. Preliminary data from 2023-24 shows that our annual suicide deaths have ...

Sapphi’s SubstackBy Sapphi

3 days ago
Are We The Baddies?

Difficult Questions: Does denying human equality and rejecting the principles of colour-blind citizenship place you among the baddies? Yes, I’m afraid it does.THE DEMON OF UNREST documents the descent of the United States into civil war. The primary focus of its author, Erik Larson, is the period of roughly five months ...

Bowalley Road

3 days ago
Thursday 31 October 2024

Health and safety campaigner Sonya Rockhouse has come out in support of the joint open letter from the NZCTU, Business NZ and others. A new Xero Small Business Insights report shows that small businesses are cutting staff and keeping wages low, while the Salvation Army’s State of the Pacific Peoples ...

NZCTUBy Jeremiah Boniface

3 days ago
Today’s Political Roundup – From Health to Self-Certification Risks

The focus on budgets is "going to cripple the health system".1. Cardiac specialist quits, saying Dr Lester Levy, the Part Time Health Commissioner, is "living in La La Land" and has no idea what's happening on the groundDr Dean BoddingtonDr Boddington, an electrical cardiologist, was the only person who did ...

Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tui

3 days ago
A deliberate and unnecessary crash landing

Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāKia ora. Long stories short, here’s my top six things to note in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and poverty on Thursday, October 31: US and European GDP growth figures overnight show the world’s largest economies, along with that of our nearest neighbour Australia, ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

3 days ago
Seymour: Swastikas OK

Race hatred cannot stop usThis one thing we knowYour poll tax and Donald TrumpGreed has got to go!You’re bound to loseYou fascists bound to lose.Original Lyrics: Woody GuthrieThere are a lot of things this government doesn’t like. Te Reo - got to go, they said, it’s too confusing for our ...

Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel

3 days ago
Sumbission: Have Your Say on Work Health and Safety

Health and safety is core union mahi. Unions recognise that health and safety is a fundamental aspect of good work, and that every worker has the right to work that is safe and healthy, and to have a voice on the operation of their work. In this submission on MBIE’s ...

NZCTUBy Jeremiah Boniface

3 days ago
The hidden health toll of hurricanes

This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections by Neha Pathak Disasters can disrupt medical care both during and long after the event. (Photo credit: U.S. Air National Guard / Sgt. Jorge Intriago) Weeks after Hurricanes Milton and Helene tore paths of destruction across the Southeast, pictures of communities ...

Skeptical Science

3 days ago
First section of Te Ha Noa Opens

Something definitely worth celebrating is the opening of the first section of Te Hā Noa, the Victoria St Linear Park. As we highlighted eight years ago, this project is vital for helping move the thousands of people that will pour out of the Te Waihorotiu station once the CRL opens. ...

Greater AucklandBy Matt L

3 days ago
Boldness be my friend

When Nicola Willis gave the annual Finance Minister’s speech to the country’s top public servants last week, what she said must have landed like a bomb. “Now is the time for your best and boldest ideas,” she said at the Institute of Public Administration (IPANZ) event. Coming from a minister ...

PolitikBy Richard Harman

3 days ago
Wednesday 30 October 2024

The NZCTU has joined with Business NZ and health and safety groups to call on the Government to drop its plans to reform health and safety law. The Postal Workers Union is opposing a plan to reduce rural postal deliveries from five to three days a week. The Government has ...

NZCTUBy Jeremiah Boniface

4 days ago
Yer doin it all wrong mate

Reader Jeff Howell is the best kind of social media friend to have. When there's outrage and denunciation needed he’s in there dishing it with verve; and when those storms pass you get happy Jeff, sharing his projects. His projects are awesome.Until a week or so ago it was a ...

More Than A FeildingBy David Slack

4 days ago
Out Of Sympathy.

Unsympathetic Characters: Christopher Luxon should be grateful that his principal opponent, Chris Hipkins, is as out of sympathy with the temper of the times as he is.CHRIS HIPKINS had both a good week and a bad week. He and his team were able to press home Labour’s attack on the ...

Bowalley Road

4 days ago
Two States – But No Solutions.

My Enemy’s Enemy Is My Friend: Mohammad Amin al-Husseini, the former Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, at the opening of the Islamic Central Institute in Berlin, December 19, 1942. The elimination of the Jewish state has been the unwavering ambition of successive generations of Palestinian leaders.AMIDST ALL THE HORROR of the Israel-Hamas War, ...

Bowalley Road

4 days ago
NZ For Sale: Chris Luxon Is Concierge To The Wealthy

Watching a Christopher Luxon press conference is a masterclass in gaslighting. You just know what he’s saying is disingenuous - if not outright deceptive and lies - but out he comes - with confidence and vigour - telling me black is white, and white is red.According to the Prime Minister, ...

Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tui

4 days ago
Will banks & insurers back self-consented homes?

Kia ora. Long stories short, here’s my top six things to note in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and poverty on Wednesday, October 30: The Government’s move to allow qualified builders, plumbers and drainlayers to self-consent their work faces potential hurdles from reluctant insurers and bankers wanting protection against ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

4 days ago
Ātahu from Moana Maniapoto

We are blessed in Aotearoa with certain people that you might call National Treasures—those with great talents and a strong affinity for this place they are the custodians of. It’s not an official list; the people you think of might differ from those I think of.What are the attributes of ...

Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel

4 days ago
Henderson Station Upgrade but will it Improve Customer Experience

Over the long weekend rail shutdown a new project got underway, an upgrade to Henderson station but the plans highlight that improving the customer experience by making it easier to use public transport is not a part of Auckland Transport’s agenda. ...

Greater AucklandBy Matt L

4 days ago
Climate Adam: Is climate change fuelling mega hurricanes?

This video includes conclusions of the creator climate scientist Dr. Adam Levy. It is presented to our readers as an informed perspective. Please see video description for references (if any). From hurricanes like Helene and Milton, to typhoons like Gaemi, vast storms are causing devastation: destroying cities and tearing up lives. ...

Skeptical Science

4 days ago
Get in the sea, old mate

For the State Highway One traveller, some sights remain dramatic no matter how many times you see them: Wellington harbour opening out at the bottom of Ngauranga Gorge; the first glimpse of Ruapehu; three quarters of the South Island. Also: the moment when you reach the top of the Brynderwyns and ...

More Than A FeildingBy David Slack

5 days ago
Taking the piss again

Remember Casey Costello? The government's most ignorant Minister? First she was referred to the Chief Archivist after claiming that key advice on her cancer promotion policy had simply magically appeared on her desk one day, and that she had no idea where it came from. Then, when the Ministry of ...

No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant

5 days ago
Monthly Employment Data shows weakness in economy

Monthly employment data released today by Statistics New Zealand showed our continuing labour market weakness, and particularly challenging conditions for young working people, said NZCTU Te Kauae Kaimahi Economist Craig Renney. “There are 21,000 fewer filled jobs than this time last year, and the fall has been led by those ...

NZCTUBy Jeremiah Boniface

5 days ago
Copy of Rwanda’s Kagame: from Saviour to Tyrant?

Is Rwanda turning into a country that seeks regional dominance and exterminates its rivals? This is a contention examined by Dr Michela Wrong, and Dr Maria Armoudian Dr Wrong is a journalist who has written best-selling books on Africa. Her latest, Do Not Disturb. The story of a political murder ...

Fabians

5 days ago
We’ve got issues

'Cause I got issues, but you got 'em tooSo give 'em all to me, and I'll give mine to youBask in the glory of all our problems'Cause we got the kind of love it takes to solve 'emYeah, I got issuesAnd one of them is how bad I need yaSongwriters: ...

Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel

5 days ago
‘Happy to watch your grandkids grow up in Australia via WhatsApp?’

Globally, NZ has the second-highest share of its population living overseas permanently, many of them now permanently in Australia. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāKia ora. Long stories short, here’s my top six things to note in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and poverty on Tuesday, October 29: A ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

5 days ago
October-24 AT Board Meeting

Today the Auckland Transport board meet again as a whole for the first time in two months. AT note: Members of the public are welcome to join the meeting via Teams. Please note, due to technical difficulties, the video feed will be unavailable. However, attendees will still be able to view ...

Greater AucklandBy Matt L

5 days ago
The fourth article of the Treaty

While Parliament struggles with David Seymour’s Treaty Principles Bill, a Christian scholar and some heavyweight mainstream church leaders have developed a different perspective on the Treaty of Waitangi. Theologian Alistair Reese presented a petition to Parliament’s Petitions Committee on Thursday asking Parliament to legislate to recognise the oral agreement “4th ...

PolitikBy Richard Harman

5 days ago
Gordon Campbell on why so many young males like Donald Trump

To foreigners, the fact that so many millions of Americans are buying the used and poisonous goods that Donald Trump is selling is an unfathomable mystery. However, some clues to the allure of Trumpism can be found in the gender gap of unprecedented size that has opened up between those ...

Gordon CampbellBy ScoopEditor

5 days ago
Building a Safer Future for Every Worker

Every New Zealander deserves a workplace that puts safety and wellbeing first. Too often, we’ve seen the real cost of a system that doesn’t fully protect workers. Lives are lost, families grieving, and communities bearing the burden of preventable tragedies. That’s why, alongside Business New Zealand, the New Zealand Institute ...

NZCTUBy Jeremiah Boniface

6 days ago
Not all authoritarians are fascists.

A few days ago I responded to a post about Trump being a fascist on one of my friend’s social media page, then made a few comments on the consultancy social media page by way of follow up. Given the … Continue reading → ...

KiwipoliticoBy Pablo

6 days ago
Keep the Vampires From Your Door

I'll protect you from the hooded clawKeep the vampires from your doorWhen the chips are down I'll be aroundWith my undying, death-defying love for youEnvy will hurt itselfLet yourself be beautifulSparkling love, flowersAnd pearls and pretty girlsLove is like an energyRushin' an' rushin' inside of me, ehSongwriters: Brian Philip Nash ...

Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel

6 days ago
The Odd Couple.

Strange Political Bedfellows: Matthew Hooton’s support for Winston Peters’ New Zealand Futures Fund reflects the Radical Right’s newfound reluctance to bet everything on the efficacy of market forces.AS IF HE WASN’T IN ENOUGH TROUBLE, Matthew Hooton has now come out for Winston Peters’ New Zealand Futures Fund (NZFF). Not only ...

Bowalley Road

6 days ago
Your Friends Should Be Close By

Hi,I’ll never forget the time the guy next to me on the plane got really angry because the Wi-Fi wasn’t working. Here we were, 40,000 feet in the air, and he couldn’t get Facebook. He was huffing, he was puffing. He was insufferable.I’m constantly amazed you can get the internet ...

David FarrierBy David Farrier

6 days ago
2024 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #43

A listing of 30 news and opinion articles we found interesting and shared on social media during the past week: Sun, October 20, 2024 thru Sat, October 26, 2024. Story of the week As an experiment, we asked Google's Gemini for help categorizing the articles we shared during the week. ...

Skeptical Science

7 days ago
Labour Weekend

Stand up all victims of oppressionFor the tyrants fear your mightDon't cling so hard to your possessionsFor you have nothing if you have no rightsLet racist ignorance be endedFor respect makes the empires fallFreedom is merely privilege extendedUnless enjoyed by one and allSongwriters: Eugene Edme Pottier / Petrus Christianus De ...

Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel

7 days ago
Fact brief – Do volcanoes emit more CO2 than humans?

Skeptical Science is partnering with Gigafact to produce fact briefs — bite-sized fact checks of trending claims. This fact brief was written by Sue Bin Park from the Gigafact team in collaboration with members from our team. You can submit claims you think need checking via the tipline. Do volcanoes emit ...

Skeptical Science

1 week ago
People of Courage & Decency. And Everyone In Between.

Today, news broke that Jeff Bezos, the American billionaire with a net worth of $206 B (NZ $344B), personally vetoed Washington Post’s Editorial Team from endorsing Kamala Harris.That stops the decades-old tradition of the Wapo for endorsing Presidential candidates. And editors have resigned - that includes Editor at large Robert ...

Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tui

1 week ago
Let’s Talk About… Anything.

Can't we talk about anything else but love?Love that launched a thousand shipsPlease! Let's talk about anything else but loveLove that causes war and famineCan't we speak about real estate?Love of wifeWatergate?Love of children!Seasonal fluctuations in the prime interest rate?Love of chocolate, you must love chocolate, everybody loves chocolate, say ...

Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel

1 week ago
Can you hear me now?

Hello! Here comes the Saturday edition of More Than A Feilding, catching you up on anything you may have missed.Share Read more ...

More Than A FeildingBy David Slack

1 week ago
Why Nations Fail

This year’s Nobel awards in economics raise critical issues about the future of the world.I was not alone with high hopes when the Soviet Union collapsed. It has been good to see various nations leave the yoke of the Soviet Empire and move towards liberal democracies with thriving economies although ...

PunditBy Brian Easton

1 week ago
All very instructive

1. Who played the sax solo on Gerry Rafferty’s Baker Street?a. Kenny Gb. Lisa Simpsonc. Bill Clintond. Raphael Ravenscroft2. What did Nicola Willis, addressing a large gathering of senior public servants this week, ask them to do?a. Come up with fresh ideas and innovative audacious out of the box thinking b. ...

More Than A FeildingBy David Slack

1 week ago
More Sabotage

The Waitangi Tribunal has been one of the most effective critics of the National government and its racist, anti-Māori agenda. So naturally, they're sabotaging it with a crony appointment: Former ACT Party leader Richard Prebble has been appointed to the Waitangi Tribunal. Prebble, a Commander of the British Empire, ...

No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant

1 week ago
Ghost of a (Mad) Dog

How can that dog be barkin' in the backyard?We ran over him years agoHow can that dog be runnin' by the backfence?We ran over him years agoGhost of a dogBarkin' in the backyardSongwriters: Edie Brickell, Kenny Withrow.I have to say this one caught me by surprise. I had to check ...

Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel

1 week ago
David Seymour’s School Lunch Provider Has Questionable Record – Including Listeria, Hors...

Yesterday, I looked into Seymour’s school lunch provider and found out it was Compass Group - a group that has had a long list of food quality issues and settled out of court for corruption and bribery of officials.Never mind the food looked like slop - heavy, process laden food ...

Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tui

1 week ago
After years of cover ups and hacks, the truth on gas is out

Long stories short, here’s the top six news items of note in climate news for Aotearoa this week, and a discussion above between Bernard Hickey and The Kākā’s climate correspondent Cathrine Dyer:Gas is worse for the climate than coal, over any timeframe that is relevant for a ‘bridging strategy’. The ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

1 week ago
Brown orders motorway building to start before business case done

Kia ora. Long stories short, here’s my top six things to note in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and poverty on Friday, October 25: Scoop of the day: Oliver Lewis reported for BusinessDesk-$$$ this morning that Transport Minister Simeon Brown ordered construction to start on the four-lane Hawkes Bay ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

1 week ago
The Hoon around the week to October 25

The podcast above of the weekly ‘Hoon’ webinar for paying subscribers on Thursday night features co-hosts & talking about the week’s news with:The Kākā’s climate correspondent on the latest climate news, including another extreme climate event in the United States; on the escalating conflict between Israel, Iran ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

1 week ago
Weekly Roundup 25-October-2024

Happy Friday, even more so as we’re head to a long weekend, so welcome to another round-up of interesting stories about what’s happening in Auckland and other cities. Feel free to add your links in the comments! This post, like all our work, is brought to you by a largely ...

Greater AucklandBy Greater Auckland

1 week ago
Skeptical Science New Research for Week #43 2024

Open access notables The rate of global sea level rise doubled during the past three decades, Hamlington et al., Communications Earth & Environment: The rise in globally averaged sea level—or global mean sea level—is one of the most unambiguous indicators of climate change. Over the past three decades, satellites have ...

Skeptical Science

1 week ago
Does New Zealand need Vegas-style transit security on our busses?

There’s a reason why people are supposed to stay on the Strip when they go to Las Vegas, and it’s not just proximity to the best attractions. This city of fluorescent lights and gambling halls extends in all directions across the Nevada landscape, for as far as the eye can ...

Sapphi’s SubstackBy Sapphi

1 week ago

Greens call for bottom trawling ban and call out Minister for lacklustre response

The Green Party is urgently calling on the Government to ban bottom trawling, following news a New Zealand bottom trawler caught 37kg of coral in international waters, prompting the suspension of all fishing in the area until 2026. ...

Greens

2 days ago
Mark Patterson: Farmers understand we have their backs

Spring is here which means the start of the A&P show season. Those treasured community days where town meets country. There's no rural-urban divide here, just a chance to meet up with family and old friends and celebrate all things that make rural New Zealand so special. I'm embarking on ...

NZ First Press Release

3 days ago
Release: Funding for Gumboot Friday should pause

The National Government should review its support for Gumboot Friday after unacceptable comments by its leader and champion Mike King. ...

Labour Blog

3 days ago
Louise Upston cherry-picks data to punch down on the poor

The Government has very conveniently cherry-picked data from the latest MSD projections to justify its cruel agenda and punch-down policy when it comes to people living in poverty. ...

Greens

3 days ago
Luxon needs to address the cow in the room

The Green Party was appalled to hear Prime Minister Christopher Luxon claim we are “doing everything we can” on climate change, while his government does nothing to address emissions in our most polluting sector. ...

Greens

5 days ago
Govt Must Clean Up ‘Its Shit’ From Sunken HMNZS Manawanui

Te Pāti Māori is calling out the Government and New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF) for their inaction and disgraceful downplaying of the impact caused by the sunken HMNZS Manawanui in Samoa. “We demand the Government move without further delay to clean up its shit from the sunken HMNZS Manawanui in Samoa,” said co-leader Debbie ...

Māori Party

7 days ago
Jamie Arbuckle: Inquiry into Banking Competition

This week was the start of the bank inquiry hearings into banking competition. The inquiry was confirmed in the NZ First/National Coalition agreement. 140 submissions were received on the inquiry, and we will hear from over 60 submitters including all the major banks. ANZ, New Zealand's largest bank, was first ...

NZ First Press Release

7 days ago
Tanya Unkovich: It’s time to start the debate on palliative care as a ‘right’

There is one topic that is the great human leveller, and that is of death and dying. One day, we will all have to face it, and I am of the belief that being able to pass away with grace and dignity is a vital, basic, human right. How we ...

NZ First Press Release

1 week ago
Release: Labour backs Christchurch City Council sanctions on Israel

Labour is backing Christchurch City Council’s decision not to do business with firms involved in Israel’s illegal settlements in the Occupied Territories. ...

Labour Blog

1 week ago
Release: Government driving away offshore wind industry

The Government has created a hostile environment for companies seeking to build offshore wind farms. ...

Labour Blog

1 week ago
Another step towards Pasifika justice

The Green Party acknowledges the historical importance of MP Teanau Tuiono’s Member’s Bill, Restoring Citizenship Removed By Citizenship (Western Samoa) Act 1982 Bill, passing its second reading in Parliament today. ...

Greens

1 week ago
Sanctions Soar, Jobs Vanish – National’s Cruelty Exposed

Te Pāti Māori is enraged at the National government’s ruthless punishment of beneficiaries, all while jobs are disappearing. MSD data shows a 133% increase in sanctions over the past year, with over 14,000 sanctions in just three months. The kicker? The jobs this government insists people should find are nowhere ...

Māori Party

2 weeks ago
Police Perpetuate Siege on Ōpōtiki

Te Pāti Māori MP for Waiariki, Rawiri Waititi, says today’s police-sponsored terrorism in Ōpōtiki is a continuation of the State’s predatory behaviour towards the iwi of Te Whakatōhea. "Ōpōtiki is once again being intentionally targeted and is the direct byproduct of this Government’s 'tough on crime' legislative changes,” said MP ...

Māori Party

2 weeks ago
Release: Govt cuts school lunches even further

The Government has gone back on its word and cut the full school lunch programme in primary schools after saying it wouldn’t. ...

Labour Blog

2 weeks ago
Time to shut down failed Youth Justice Residences

The Green Party is calling for Youth Justice Residences to close, following a protest in which a group of young people spent the night on the roof of an Oranga Tamariki justice facility. ...

Greens

2 weeks ago
Release: Appalling process on three strikes law

The Government is subverting parliamentary process on laws the evidence already shows don’t work. ...

Labour Blog

2 weeks ago
Release: Labour calls for investigation into tobacco tax cut

The Government’s decision to award a $216 million tax break for Philip Morris’ heated tobacco products reeks of tobacco industry interference and needs to be thoroughly investigated. ...

Labour Blog

2 weeks ago
Release: Delay to retirement village review won’t help residents

The National Government is treading water on a much-needed review of the Retirement Villages Act, kicking any amendments down the road till the next parliamentary term in 2027. ...

Labour Blog

2 weeks ago
Release: Serious concerns ignored in Govt’s fast track bill

National’s fast track bill enables the most radical and unbalanced consenting regime in living memory. ...

Labour Blog

2 weeks ago
Fast-Track, off the rails: Submitters show strong opposition to Bill

Despite resounding public opposition, the fast-track legislation is being pushed through Parliament with provisions that could have real consequences for people and planet. ...

Greens

2 weeks ago
Release: Labour supports continuing fight for dairy access

Labour welcomes the National Government’s decision to further pursue our access to the Canadian dairy market under the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership (CPTPP) ...

Labour Blog

2 weeks ago
Release: Job losses devastating for Timaru

Confirmed news that the Smithfield meatworks will close is devastating for the hundreds of people who work there, Timaru and the wider region. ...

Labour Blog

2 weeks ago
New Zealand First Member’s Bill to Improve Access to Palliative Care

New Zealand First has introduced a Member’s Bill which aims to improve access to palliative care for all New Zealanders, ensuring kiwis have better access to the compassionate palliative support they may need. The ‘Improving Access to Palliative Care Bill’ seeks to guarantee that every New Zealander has the right ...

NZ First Press Release

2 weeks ago
Release: Further uncertainty for Kiwirail as jobs set to go

KiwiRail offering voluntary redundancy to all its staff is hugely concerning given the future of New Zealand’s rail system is under threat. ...

Labour Blog

2 weeks ago
ASA Declares Hobson’s Pledge Advertising Misleading and Socially Irresponsible

Te Pāti Māori Co-leaders Rawiri Waititi and Debbie Ngarewa-Packer welcome today’s ruling from the Advertising Standards Authority (ASA), which found that a Hobson's Pledge advertisement regarding customary marine titles was misleading and socially irresponsible. The two-page wraparound ad, published in The New Zealand Herald, suggested that nearly the entire coastline ...

Māori Party

2 weeks ago
Release: Benefit numbers continue to soar under National

National’s all pain approach to beneficiaries has yielded no gain as benefit numbers continue to surge past projected figures. ...

Labour Blog

2 weeks ago
Casey Costello: What Once Was…

Entering politics is a privilege afforded to very few and, as the saying goes, with great power comes great responsibility. Being an MP is a call to service. Whatever your politics you have a duty to show up. Whatever your party's policy, you have made a promise to those who ...

NZ First Press Release

2 weeks ago
Soaring benefit sanctions push more into poverty

Sanctions on beneficiaries have sky-rocketed since the Coalition Government came to power, pushing more families into poverty. ...

Greens

2 weeks ago
International Energy Agency issues wake-up call on climate action

Today’s report from the International Energy Agency highlights how far this Government’s actions are dragging us backwards in the fight against climate change. ...

Greens

2 weeks ago
Release: Lack of funding puts pressure on frontline Police

News that 173 roles are being cut at Police will only put more pressure on the frontline. ...

Labour Blog

2 weeks ago
Release: Bipartisan agreement on outdated marriage law

Changes to outdated relationships legislation has passed its third reading giving family violence survivors the power to quickly dissolve abusive marriages. ...

Labour Blog

2 weeks ago
Release: Cuts to Apprenticeship Boost will fail future NZ

The Government’s cuts to the Apprenticeship Boost programme will leave New Zealand without the workforce it needs to build homes, schools and hospitals. ...

Labour Blog

3 weeks ago
Release: Sluggish economy means struggles ahead for Kiwis

While today’s inflation numbers are good news for Kiwis, there are still struggles ahead with rising rents, rates, insurance and high unemployment. ...

Labour Blog

3 weeks ago
CPI figures show rents continuing to soar

Stats NZ has confirmed that higher rent prices were the biggest contributor to the annual inflation rate. Almost a fifth of the 2.2 per cent annual increase in the CPI was due to rent prices. ...

Greens

3 weeks ago

New Charter to guarantee better access for hunting and fishing

Minister for Hunting and Fishing Todd McClay has today launched an Access Charter (the Charter) to ensure better access for recreational hunting and fishing on public conservation land (PCL) across New Zealand. “This Charter establishes guiding principles for the Department of Conservation (DOC) to provide clear and transparent decisions on ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

24 hours ago
Pou Whenua blessing honours Tongariro

A beautiful new Pou Whenua at the beginning of the Tongariro Alpine Crossing will introduce visitors to the sacred landscape they are entering, says Conservation Minister Tama Potaka. Mr Potaka attended a blessing for the specially carved Pou Whenua at Mangatepopo, at the start of the track on 1 November. ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

2 days ago
New members appointed to the NZTA Board

Transport Minister Simeon Brown has today announced two new appointments to the New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA) Board. Mary-Anne Macleod and Mike Rudge have both been appointed as members for three-year terms commencing 1 November 2024 and ending 31 October 2027. “Transport is a critical part of our Government’s plan ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

2 days ago
Welcome relief from new oestradiol gel funding

Associate Health Minister David Seymour is welcoming Pharmac’s funding of oestradiol gel, following global shortages of oestradiol patches earlier this year. “I’m well aware of the stress caused by the global shortage earlier this year. At the time I said I was confident Pharmac was working hard to find a ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

2 days ago
Deputy Prime Minister visit to Australia

Foreign Minister and Racing Minister Winston Peters will visit Australia next week. “Australia is New Zealand’s closest partner, and we are pleased to make this second official visit there for 2024 following the first ever Foreign and Defence Ministers 2+2 Meeting between our two countries in Melbourne in January,” ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

2 days ago
Applications now open for new training pathway

Applications have now opened for tertiary education organisations to seek Government funding to develop New Zealand’s first postgraduate diploma programme for associate psychologists, Minister for Mental Health Matt Doocey announced today. “Investment in this new training pathway supports the Government’s target to grow our mental health and addiction workforce and ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

2 days ago
Increased medicines access continues following budget boost

Associate Health Minister with responsibility for Pharmac David Seymour is pleased to see further increased availability of medicines for Kiwis following the Government’s increased investment in Pharmac. “Pharmac operates independently, but it must work within the budget constraints set by the Government,” says Mr Seymour. “When this Government assumed office, ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

2 days ago
New Zealand concludes high quality trade deal with the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC)

New Zealand and the six-nation Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) have concluded negotiations on a trade agreement that will open up significant opportunities for New Zealand exporters in the Gulf region, Minister for Trade and Agriculture Todd McClay announced from Doha today. Today’s announcement follows significant reengagement with the GCC following meetings ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

2 days ago
Government seeks views on remote court attendance

The Government is exploring how to modernise the law around people attending court remotely, to support access to justice and enhance court performance. Courts Minister Nicole McKee says the current law has not kept up with evolving court practices and public attitudes to the use of remote technology, nor been ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

3 days ago
Breast screening age extension begins in Nelson Marlborough

Free breast screening has been extended for 70 to 74-year-old women living in the Nelson Marlborough district, ahead of a national roll-out late next year, Health Minister Dr Shane Reti announced today. “Breast cancer is the most common cancer in New Zealand with about 3,400 women diagnosed with the disease ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

3 days ago
Te Māori Manaaki Taonga Trust Board strengthened

He toi whakairo, he mana tangata. The reappointment of one trustee and the appointment of four new trustees to the Te Māori Manaaki Taonga Trust Board will enable the legacy of Te Māori to be carried forward into the future, Māori Development Minister Tama Potaka and Arts Minister Paul Goldsmith ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

3 days ago
Affordable housing project supporting home ownership

Up to 300 affordable, healthy, community-tailored homes helping to support home ownership are set to be built in eastern Porirua, supported by Government funding for Our Whare Our Fale through the Building Homes for Pacific in Porirua initiative, Minister for Pacific Peoples Dr Shane Reti and Associate Housing Minister Tama ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

3 days ago
Dire benefit forecasts show the need for Welfare that Works

A new report that forecasts young people on benefits will spend an average of 20 more years relying on welfare underscores the need for the Government’s reforms, Social Development and Employment Minister Louise Upston says. MSD’s latest Benefit System Insights report, released today, which estimates how many future years different ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

3 days ago
Trade Minister travels to Doha for GCC trade discussions

Trade Minister Todd McClay will hold trade discussions with Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) trade ministers in Doha this week. Minister McClay will meet with all six GCC Trade Ministers, as well as the GCC Secretary General. “This will be my seventh visit to the region this year including two Ministerial ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
Podiatry prescribers will boost patient care

Health Minister Dr Shane Reti and Associate Minister David Seymour say it’s great news that podiatrists will soon be able to prescribe medicines, meaning patients with painful foot and leg conditions don’t have to make a separate trip to the doctor. “This simple step means a big change for people ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
Historic redress inequities finally resolved for Lake Alice Unit survivors

The Government is addressing historic redress inequities for some survivors abused at the Lake Alice Child and Adolescent Unit. In 2001, the Crown reached a $6.5 million group settlement with 95 survivors subjected to abuse at the Lake Alice Unit. Law firm Grant Cameron & Associates (now GCA Lawyers) represented ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
ERO report shows Government’s truancy emphasis is vital

Associate Education Minister David Seymour says that the Education Review Office’s (ERO) timely report on chronic school absence released today is further evidence of a truancy crisis. “Chronic absence has doubled since 2015. This report reinforces that action is needed to ensure this generation reaches its full potential,” says Associate ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
Minister welcomes business view on AML

Associate Justice Minister Nicole McKee welcomes BusinessNZ’s report which addresses reducing the compliance burden on small businesses. “The challenges outlined in the report released today echo many of the concerns I have heard from businesses, which have informed my Anti Money Laundering/Countering Financing Terrorism (AML/CFT) priorities,” she says. “I have ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago
Mangamuka Gorge opening in time for Christmas

State Highway 1 through the Mangamuka Gorge will be open for Christmas, with critical work currently underway to clear the large slips and dropouts that have caused significant disruption for Northlanders trying to get where they want to go quickly and safely, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “The Mangamuka Gorge ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago
Trusted building professionals able to self-certify

The Government is proposing further significant action to reform the building and construction sector to support more affordable homes and a stronger economy, Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk says. “If we want to grow the economy, lift incomes, create jobs and build more affordable, quality homes we need a ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago
New appointments to the TEC board

Dr Alan Bollard CNZM and Mr Bharat Guha have been appointed to the Tertiary Education Commission (TEC) board, Tertiary Education and Skills Minister Penny Simmonds says. “I would like to welcome the two new members joining the TEC board,” Ms Simmonds says. “Dr Alan Bollard CNZM is an experienced public ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago
Move to fast-track overseas doctors welcomed

Fast tracking applications for registration by eligible specialist doctors wanting to practice in New Zealand is in line with the Government’s push to improve the health outcomes for New Zealanders, Health Minister Dr Shane Reti says. This fast-track pathway applies to specialists trained in anaesthesia, dermatology, emergency medicine, general practice, ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago
Address to Western Sydney University: Constitutional and Rule of Law challenges in current global en...

Tēnā koutou Nau mai haere mai ki tenei hui Thank you to Vice Chancellor Williams, and the University of Western Sydney, for inviting me to speak today. I speak to you today in my capacity as Attorney-General – the New Zealand Crown’s Senior Law Officer. In this capacity, I serve ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago
Security advice for start-ups welcomed

Minister responsible for the security and intelligence agencies Judith Collins has welcomed new guidance that aims to protect New Zealand’s start-up and emerging technology sector from the threat of economic espionage. “We are a nation well-known for our ingenuity, and our willingness to openly collaborate in the spirit of enterprise ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 days ago
Funding support to strengthen frontline volunteer service organisations

The Government has approved $23.1 million for four critical frontline volunteer service organisations to replace storm-damaged assets and provide training and equipment to improve New Zealand’s response to future emergency events, Transport Minister Simeon Brown and Associate Transport Minister Matt Doocey says. $14.6 million for Surf Life Saving New ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

6 days ago
Jones heads to international mining conference

Resources Minister Shane Jones will speak at Australia's largest annual mining event in Sydney this week to mark New Zealand’s return to the international industry stage. Mr Jones will attend the International Mining and Resources Conference (IMARC) where he will update the sector’s most influential players on the work the ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

7 days ago
NZ investing in Pacific disaster preparedness & climate resilience

New Zealand will contribute $20 million to the Pacific Resilience Facility, Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and Deputy Prime Minister Winston Peters have announced. “The Pacific Islands region faces severe challenges from natural disasters and climate change impacts and New Zealand is committed to doing its part to help meet them,” ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

1 week ago
Police to increase presence on Auckland public transport

Aucklanders will see a greater Police presence on public transport services to boost safety and reassure public transport workers and passengers, Police Minister Mark Mitchell and Transport and Auckland Minister Simeon Brown say. “Minister Brown and I are working together, alongside Police and Auckland Transport in response to the horrific ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

1 week ago
Government funds helicopter replacements

The Government is investing in eight new emergency helicopters to replace some of New Zealand’s ageing air ambulance fleet, Associate Health Minister Casey Costello and ACC Minister Matt Doocey announced today. “Our air ambulance helicopters play a vital role in saving lives around New Zealand,” Casey Costello says. “This is ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

1 week ago
China and New Zealand strengthen organic trade

An uplift to New Zealand’s organic product trade is expected through a new upgraded arrangement with China, Food Safety Minister Andrew Hoggard says.“The upgraded Mutual Recognition Arrangement (MRA) for organic products will deliver opportunities for our organic export sector.”The upgraded MRA was signed in Central Otago today by Andrew Hoggard ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

1 week ago
Judicial appointments announced

Attorney-General Judith Collins today announced two Court of Appeal and two High Court appointments. The four appointments will take effect on 21 November 2024 and are: Justice Christine French Justice French, who has been appointed President of the Court of Appeal, graduated with an LLB (Honours) from the University of Otago ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

1 week ago
Tuatapere Hump Ridge Track becomes New Zealand’s 11th Great Walk

Conservation Minister Tama Potaka joined tangata whenua from Ngāi Tahu and local community members today to celebrate the opening of New Zealand’s eleventh Great Walk – the Tuatapere Hump Ridge Track. “The 60km upgraded track provides the opportunity to do one of New Zealand’s world-class multi-day walks, and will bring ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

1 week ago
New Chief Criminal Cases Review Commissioner

The Honourable Denis Clifford has been appointed Chief Commissioner of the Criminal Cases Review Commission, Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith says. Hon Clifford brings a wealth of expertise and experience that will prove invaluable to the Commission. “He has served as a judge at both the Court of Appeal and High ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

1 week ago
Changes to improve building fire safety

The Government is progressing changes to better protect Kiwis and their property from fires, Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk says. “Following the tragic Loafer’s Lodge fire in 2023, 37 boardings houses across the country were assessed and I am pleased to say that all fire safety recommendations from the ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

1 week ago
Germany and New Zealand partner to support agriculture and tackle global emissions

New Zealand and Germany have announced the official start of a partnership aimed at supporting the agriculture sector and tackle global agricultural greenhouse gas emissions Agriculture Minister Todd McClay announced today. “The partnership, called the Alliance for the Climate – Dialogue on Climate and Agriculture between New Zealand and Germany (Agri-DENZ project), ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

1 week ago
New members appointed to the Waitangi Tribunal

Māori Development Minister Tama Potaka today confirmed the appointment of two new members to the Waitangi Tribunal, as well as the reappointment of Kevin Prime. The members appointed and reappointed are: Hon Richard Prebble (CBE). Mr Prebble is a former Cabinet Minister where he held a broad range of portfolios. ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

1 week ago
New appointments to the Local Government Commission

Local Government Minister Simeon Brown has today announced the reappointment of the current Chair and the appointment of a temporary member to the Local Government Commission.Current Chair Brendan Duffy ONZM has been reappointed as Chair for a one-year term ending 23 October 2025, while Gwen Bull CNZM will be joining ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

1 week ago
New Electoral Commission Chair appointed

Today the House agreed to Justice Simon Moore KC being appointed chair of the Electoral Commission, Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith says. “Justice Moore brings with him a high level of legal acumen and decision-making ability, strategic planning skills and unquestionable personal integrity and independence. “He retired from the High Court ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

1 week ago
Education Minister attending conference in Australia

The Education Minister is travelling to Australia today to attend the 23rd edition of public policy conference, Consilium. “New Zealand and Australia share common challenges and aspirations for education. New South Wales has recently introduced a new curriculum that is explicit, sequenced and knowledge based while Victoria is requiring structured ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

1 week ago
Launching VisAble to enable safer lives

The launch of new community advocacy group VisAble signals an important development in community advocacy to achieve more focus on the needs and rights of disabled people in the family violence and sexual violence system. Minister for the Prevention of Family and Sexual Violence, Karen Chhour, and Disabilities Issues Minister, ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

1 week ago

An Ode for .. Matt Doocey

The Psychopathology of Everyday GumbootsMinister of Mental Health Doocey walks into the counselling session.A shadowy figure in gumboots behind a cloud of cigar smokeMotions to the couch.“Welcome,” says Legendary Viennese Psychoanalyst, Sigmund King. “What seems to be the problem?”“I have this friend,” begins Minister Doocey, “But he only wants to be my ...

NewsroomBy Victor Billot

48 mins ago
US election: Latinos hit back by showing up

A heady mix of barbecued meat, horse poo, and cattle welcomes Latino voters as they walk between the metal fencing and into the arena at Rancho Ochoa.Some of those making their way into the Mexican rodeo in southwest Phoenix are there purely for the action: the bull riding, roping, big ...

NewsroomBy Laura Walters

2 hours ago
Parliament Library became haunted house for Halloween

Most people might not call Parliament a normal place, but some call it a paranormal place. ...

Radio NZ – political

3 hours ago
Healthcare needs go beyond the physical

Opinion: Recent Census data highlights our increasingly secular and multi-faith context. More than half of Aotearoa New Zealand’s population does not identify with any particular faith tradition, and just 32 percent are Christian, down from 36.5 percent in 2018.For people whose spirituality is not associated with a faith or belief ...

NewsroomBy University of Otago

3 hours ago
The fascination with Katherine Mansfield

Inspiration to Compose Wellington based- singer-songwriter Charlotte Yates brings together some of New Zealand’s most talented musicians to create a unique concert Mansfield in Her Own Words. In this episode Yates explains her fascination with Mansfield.

https://player.vimeo.com/api/player.jsShe chooses poems for composers and performers including William Ricketts and Brooke Singer. We film Ricketts reflecting on Mansfield’s poem, A Sunset on a ...

NewsroomBy Anna Cottrell

3 hours ago
Three reasons America’s democracy is under threat

For just a few weeks shy of eight years now, a certain class of Americans have been walking around in something close to a daze. The election of Donald Trump in 2016 blew to smithereens decades of conventional wisdom about the way many Americans view politics.The ensuing years have seen ...

NewsroomBy 360info

4 hours ago
Palau newspaper sued by president’s family company ahead of general election

By Stefan Armbruster of BenarNews Palau’s largest newspaper is being sued for defamation by the company of President Surangel Whipps Jr’s father, just days ahead of general elections in the Pacific nation. Surangel and Sons alleges “negligence and defamation” by the Island Times and its editor Leilani Reklai for an ...

Evening ReportBy Asia Pacific Report

12 hours ago
Cook Islands PM calls for easing of tensions in New Caledonia

By Caleb Fotheringham, RNZ Pacific journalist Cook Islands Prime Minister Mark Brown has returned from New Caledonia saying it is not a simple “black and white situation”. Brown returned from a three-day Pacific fact-finding mission in the French Pacific territory alongside the Prime Ministers of Solomon Islands, Tonga and Fiji. ...

Evening ReportBy Asia Pacific Report

20 hours ago
Another Palestinian journalist killed in Gaza as Israel ‘suffocates the truth’

“In his message for the day, the secretary-general underscores that a free press is fundamental to human rights, to democracy and to the rule of law,” Dujarric said. ‘Alarming rate of fatalities’“Recent years have seen an alarming rate of fatalities in conflict zones, particularly in Gaza, which has seen the ...

Evening ReportBy Asia Pacific Report

21 hours ago
Chris Penk lays foundations for self-certified building scheme

As the government sets about laying the foundations for tradespeople to sign off their own work, RNZ sits down with the minister responsible to hammer out the details. ...

Radio NZ – political

23 hours ago
Short story: 3rd place, Sargeson Prize

WinterI still think of Michael often. We first met at Grace’s thirty-first birthday party. I was sitting outside on the back deck when he came out through the sliding glass doors. He was pulling a pouch from his coat pocket.“You want a smoke?” he asked, planting himself on the bench ...

NewsroomBy Cello Forrester

1 day ago
The Secret Diary of .. Mike King

MondayI sat in at a team meeting to discuss our suicide prevention fundraising event this Friday night in Dunedin and was told we were struggling to gain an alcohol licence from the council.“Tell them Mike King is behind it,” I said. “My name opens doors. Do you see that door? It ...

NewsroomBy Steve Braunias

1 day ago
The making of Donald Trump

It’s taken six years, but The Apprentice, the film former US President Donald Trump didn’t want anyone to see, is finally out in cinemas, just ahead of the US presidential election.There was so much back-and-forth around whether or not the production would go ahead that by the time filming was ...

NewsroomBy Davina Zimmer

1 day ago
Where the brain goes, the gut will follow

Comment: There has been a growing understanding of the powerful two-way connection between our stomach and brain in recent years, suitably named the gut-brain connection. This link is so strong that the gut is sometimes nicknamed our “second brain”, highlighting how real your “gut feelings” can be. If you’ve ever ...

NewsroomBy Dr Mikaela Law

1 day ago
The Weekend: When the tide turns

Madeleine Chapman reflects on the week that was. The window in which to “have an opinion” on an unfolding news story is shockingly small. Just as large newsrooms know that being “the first” to publish a breaking news story is often more important than anything written in it – ever ...

The SpinoffBy Madeleine Chapman

1 day ago
Let people respond to the haka how they want to

Cultural challenges are an integral part of sports, but how teams respond has been a point of debate for some time. Self-proclaimed “loose head” England prop Joe Marler called for the haka to be scrapped earlier this week, before “clarifying” what he meant, attempting to pivot his statement, and then ...

The SpinoffBy Liam Rātana

1 day ago
‘I’ve never lived it down’: The Breakfast live cross that still haunts Jack Tame

The TVNZ broadcaster reflects on his life in television, including a full circle moment with David Attenborough, his favourite politicians to interview and why he’ll never watch Game of Thrones. Jack Tame spends most of his time grilling our own MPs, but at the moment his heart is somewhere else. ...

The SpinoffBy My Life in TV

1 day ago
‘So subtle, yet so chaotic’: Wiri Donna’s perfect weekend playlist

Wellington’s Wiri Donna shares her perfect weekend playlist. Bianca Bailey is the lead singer, guitarist and songwriter behind the chamber-pop project Wiri Donna, which recently released its second EP, In My Chambers. “I’m feeling a little vulnerable about it, almost like I’m about to out myself as an angry person. ...

The SpinoffBy Lyric Waiwiri-Smith

1 day ago
How the Gen Z broccoli haircut became big business for a teen barber

Three teenage barbers in Mt Albert have capitalised on a viral haircut to build businesses on Instagram. Duncan Greive gets a haircut and a lesson in modern business. Photography by Jin Fellet. ‘When I first started cutting hair, I messed up my friend really badly,’ says Ali. I shiver involuntarily ...

The SpinoffBy Duncan Greive

1 day ago
A new novel imagines a New Zealand version of the conservative South Asian grifter

There’s little to like about figures like American politician Vivek Ramaswamy, but there is a lot to learn. Earlier this year, American politician and failed Republican candidate, Vivek Ramaswamy, hosted notorious bagpipe, Ann Coulter, on his podcast. They talked for an hour, and frankly there’s no way I’m going to ...

The SpinoffBy Brannavan Gnanalingam

1 day ago
The wild, exotic life of Katherine Mansfield

https://player.vimeo.com/api/player.jsKatherine Mansfield left New Zealand when she was 19 years old and died at the age of 34.In her short life she became our most famous short story writer, acquiring an international reputation for her stories, poetry, letters, journals and reviews. Biographies on Mansfield have been translated into 51 ...

NewsroomBy Newsroom Contributor

1 day ago
Podcast: Giving employees what they want, when they want it

Fintechs are changing the way we spend and save, but they are also set to change the way we could be paid for work, or more correctly, how workers receive fringe benefits. As New Zealanders we’re used to having the bulk of our remuneration paid as an electronic payment ...

The SpinoffBy When the Facts Change

1 day ago
Albanese promises changes to HELP repayment arrangements to ease cost of living

Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle Grattan, Professorial Fellow, University of Canberra People repaying HELP student debts would get cost-of-living relief under changes to repayment arrangements to be announced by Prime Minister Anthony Albanese on Sunday. The minimum threshold for repayments to start would be lifted ...

Evening ReportBy The Conversation

1 day ago
Philippine Supreme Court orders ‘temporary protection’ for abducted environmental activist

By Jairo Bolledo in Manila The Philippine Supreme Court has granted temporary protection to an environmental activist abducted in Pangasinan earlier this year. In its resolution dated September 9 — but only made public this week — the court granted Francisco “Eco” Dangla III’s petition for temporary protection, and prohibited ...

Evening ReportBy Asia Pacific Report

2 days ago
Politics with Michelle Grattan: Bruce Wolpe says personal relations between Trump and Albanese would...

Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle Grattan, Professorial Fellow, University of Canberra Days from the US presidential election, the polls are showing the outcome of the race between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump remains a nail biter. With the United States our closest ally, the result ...

Evening ReportBy The Conversation

2 days ago
Indo-Fijian ‘listen to us’ plea to NZ over Pacific ethnicity classification

By Lydia Lewis, RNZ Pacific presenter/Bulletin editor Fiji Prime Minister Sitiveni Rabuka says that as far as Fiji is concerned, Fijians of Indian descent are Fijian. While Fiji is part of the Pacific, Indo-Fijians are not classified as Pacific peoples in New Zealand; instead, they are listed under Indian and ...

Evening ReportBy Asia Pacific Report

2 days ago
Is thirst a good predictor of dehydration?

Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Lauren Ball, Professor of Community Health and Wellbeing, The University of Queensland KieferPix/Shutterstock Water is essential for daily functioning and health, and we can only survive a few days without it. Yet we constantly lose water through sweat, urination and even ...

Evening ReportBy The Conversation

2 days ago
US election: The world could wait a fortnight thanks to one Arizona County

Come next Tuesday, the world will be watching Nate Young and his team – literally. There are now 21 livestream cameras showing early voter ballot drop-off locations and the inner-workings of the Maricopa County Tabulation and Election Center.The 24/7 livestreams that capture election employees’ every move might seem like overkill, but ...

NewsroomBy Laura Walters

2 days ago
Te Arawhiti – the Office for Māori Crown Relations set to lose more than 50 roles

Two proposals were made to staff on Friday - one would see a transfer of functions to Te Puni Kōkiri - with 44 employees transferred. ...

Radio NZ – political

2 days ago
Naked tennis, outback feuds and a chimp named Tonka: what we’re streaming in November

Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Alexa Scarlata, Research Fellow, Media & Communication, RMIT University As I write this, people around the country will be recovering from last night’s Halloween shenanigans, perhaps even experiencing a candy-induced comedown. Luckily, this month’s streaming picks include a serial killer flick that’ll ...

Evening ReportBy The Conversation

2 days ago
Tech billionaire Elon Musk’s social media posts have had a ‘sudden boost’ since July, new rese...

Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Timothy Graham, Associate Professor in Digital Media, Queensland University of Technology On July 13, shortly after Donald Trump was targeted by an assassination attempt, Elon Musk, the billionaire owner of X (formerly Twitter), tweeted to his more than 200 million followers: ...

Evening ReportBy The Conversation

2 days ago
Could Ukraine be heading toward a frozen conflict? Why so much is hinging on the US election

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