Anatomy of a lie

Written By: IrishBill - Date published: 8:51 pm, May 5th, 2011 - 158 comments
Categories: Politics - Tags: hone harawira, matthew hooton, trevor mallard

When the news of Hone Harawira’s “support for Osama Bin Laden” broke in the Herald I was suspicious of it – there was no byline on the story and it wasn’t on the front page. Surely such a revelation would be headline news and surely the journo that covered it would want to claim such a cracker story as their own. And why did it take two days between Hone saying it and the Herald picking it up. The whole thing had a sense of a cautious editorial decision.

My gut feeling was there was context missing and that it had the feel of research unit work. Especially as Matthew Hooton has been touting a similar line about Annette Sykes (I asked him about the rumours he’s working for Brash – ~~so far he’s not denied it~~ [Matthew has confirmed he’s not working for Brash]).

Then I saw the video. My first impression was Hone was saying we shouldn’t be celebrating a man’s death in his usual roundabout way.

One of our commenters described it this way:

I just watched the clip http://tvnz.co.nz/te-karere/video [it’s about two thirds in] – it turns out the full quote was “they [bin laden’s family] mourn for a man who fought for the rights, the land and the freedom of his people”.

It seemed to me he was talking about the way Bin Laden’s family would have thought of Bin Laden.

Whatever was going on it was pretty clear that Hone wasn’t backing Bin Laden just as it was clear that the context of what he said had been altered with the removal of a single word: “they”.

That didn’t stop all of those with a vested interest in discrediting Hone (and some of those without one) from having a go including, to his discredit, Trevor Mallard over on red alert.

By the afternoon the story was whipped up into a frenzy. Which surprised me because it seemed patently clear from the video evidence that what people were claiming Hone meant he hadn’t meant at all. Several commenters here and on other blogs who actually watched the Te Karere video said as much.

I suppose that by then there was enough blood in the water that journos who should have known better felt obliged to report on the story with headlines that misrepresented what Hone said. After all, it fits the “loose cannon” narrative they’re all sold on and perhaps they convinced themselves that the perception was more important than the facts (and perhaps it is). Then when it was nice and juicy Key stepped in.

And now Hone has apologised for the way he said what he said. Not for saying he supported Bin laden (because he never did) but because the power of the lie was so great he probably felt he had to.

Unfortunately this will be represented as confirming the lie.

There’s a couple of lessons in this. One is for the Mana party who have learned the hard way how the echo chamber runs and how watchful they will have to be.

The other is for the journalists and the pundits: there will be a lot of this over the next seven months. If you buy into this dirty game like you have with Hone you will be doing yourselves and democracy a huge disservice.

I should note two more things: I’m not a great supporter of Hone, I like the left politics Mana espouses but I’ve had a bit to do with a few of the people in his team (as I’ve had a bit to do with a lot of political operators across the spectrum) and I’m not confident they have what it takes to put any weight into their vision. That they’ve let their guard down like this doesn’t change that.

I’m also disappointed in the opportunism show by Trevor Mallard in this matter. He’s the man running Labour’s campaign and for him to make the fundamental mistake of assuming his enemy’s enemy is his friend is amateur – the right wing echo chamber he threw in with on this will be used against Labour this year and today he helped make it a little more powerful.

In politics you’ve got to take your lumps because life isn’t fair but frankly the whole debacle has left a bad taste in my mouth.

158 comments on “Anatomy of a lie ”

Comments are now closed

Anthony 1

5 May 2011 at 9:00 pm

Even the way the herald and stuff reported the quotes underlined the lie…

Both papers placed his quotes out of chronological order to create a further perception of support for Bin Laden.
higherstandard 2

5 May 2011 at 9:03 pm

I still think the most bizarre things he’s said is the repeated assertions that Brash is like Hitler, he need to engage his brain before opening the mouth.

If he wrote and talked about more stuff like this

http://hone.co.nz/2011/04/20/an-anzac-story-for-all-new-zealanders/

he might attract less opprobrium.
- IrishBill 2.1
  
  5 May 2011 at 9:14 pm
  
  Agreed. I think he’s using the Hitler stuff to get coverage but it’s still not the smartest move.
deemac 3

5 May 2011 at 9:21 pm

“not the smartest move”?? it’s offensive! not to Brash of course (he can look after himself) but to Hitler’s victims. In the US or UK Hone would now be toast after that comment.
All in all, Hone’s foolish behaviour just underlines that the idea that he is cut out to be the leader of a serious political party is a complete non-starter.
- IrishBill 3.1
  
  5 May 2011 at 9:30 pm
  
  You’re right he’d be a better leader if he was like Don Brash, John Key, Phil Goff, Pita Sharples, Tariana Turia or Peter Dunne.
  
  Like I said I’m not a supporter of Hone’s but I’m not discounting him from any leadership club that includes this lot.
Scott 4

5 May 2011 at 9:32 pm

People are entitled to take a politician’s words at face value, and most people (on both left and right) were appalled by what Harawira said. He may not have meant what came out of his mouth, but they were the words he chose. Plenty of people on the left were appalled by what he said – not just the usual suspects on the right.

The fact that Hone continues to have these brain explosions speaks volumes. Even his most ardent supporters must be shaking their heads. Leader of a parliamentary party? God help us all. I am now beginning to have some sympathy for Phil Goff for ruling him out of any deal.
- felix 4.1
  
  5 May 2011 at 10:07 pm
  
  Do you mean take a politician’s words at face value?
  
  Or do you mean take the Herald’s paraphrasing and editing of those words at face value?
  
  Because your comment suggests to me that you don’t realise how different those two things are in this instance.
- Alwyn 4.2
  
  6 May 2011 at 2:37 pm
  
  The funniest part of Hone’s interview at the weekend was when he was talking about the 90 day bill.
  He claimed that if Don Brash had his way it would become a 60 day bill and then a 30 day bill.
  Funny, but from the left’s pont of view a 60 day instead of 90 period would have to be better and a 30 day period would be better again. Still we can’t expect much in the way of logic from someone who can seriously compare Don Brash with Hitler!
  - Vicky32 4.2.1
    
    6 May 2011 at 4:26 pm
    
    Funny, but from the left’s pont of view a 60 day instead of 90 period would have to be better and a 30 day period would be better again.
    
    Er, Alwyn, how do you work that out?
    - Alwyn 4.2.1.1
      
      6 May 2011 at 5:09 pm
      
      Think about it.
      If you had a 30 day period for a trial you would, if you lasted that long, have the right to claim unfair dismissal if you then lost your job. ie You could only be dismissed in the first 30 days, not the first 90 days.
      In fact you can say that what the Left is really after is a ZERO day bill. I don’t think that Hone got as far as saying that what Don would introduce is a zero day bill but he might have. I can’t really be bothered looking at the whole program again to check.
Terry 5

5 May 2011 at 9:34 pm

I left a comment on Yahoo Xtra, which can be referred to if they published this. I thought Hone’s remarks were clearly not supporting personally the very bad bin Laden. I have always detested bin Laden. But I also believe in the sanctity of every human life (yes, even Muslims – they are human beings too!)
I am so tired of seeing and hearing 99% American versions of what happened to accompany their indecent smirking and gloating. Justice is essential and good, plain vengeance is another matter. Hone I thought was very discerning and for that matter “pastoral”, all accompanied by his fearless and honest opinion. I do not know what he was apologising for – because he showed himself a caring human being for a man with people who loved him?
Key’s utterances were typically deplorable.
By no means do I make the slightest connection, but feel constrained to look at Christ (to vast numbers bin Laden could have been be likened to a Christ-like Saviour). Jesus at least received some semblance of a charge laid against him and a mockery of a trial. Osama bin Laden was murdered (clearly unarmed and passive), without getting to hear any charge laid, he could have been arrested and did not have even that opportunity, and most certainly he was executed without standing trial (even Hussain was permitted these rights).
The voice of the Islamic world is muted, a common effect of great shock and grief. We will never get the real facts, but mistake not silence for acceptance. Better that they do speak rather than deliver the actions they are sure, in their own time, to take.
Meanwhile plotting and ordering assassination has not blotted the name of Obama, it has ensured his popularity and victory at the election next year. It appears that he is learning new lessons from George Bush. I greatly disliked bin Laden, but I dislike also the absence of true justice and the nasty gloatings of vengeance which might next be taken on Assange? Hone there a more than a few who stand by you. You gave not a hint that you admired bin Laden for any evil things to his account.
ianmac 6

5 May 2011 at 9:37 pm

Thanks Irish Bill for your post. The twisting of truth was at least sad, and I would have thought that in the name of fair play, there would have been a bit more circumspection in the story. And to think that even many on the Left were gullible! And Trevor. Shame!
Drakula 7

5 May 2011 at 9:49 pm

So even Ill Duce or Franco or Milosovitch loved their families and did what they thought was right. We don’t have to like these people they were mass murderers.

I think if more people in NZ took a holiday on the Gaza Strip they would get what Honi is saying.

He hasn’t said anything offensive, it’s the fascist media trying to paint him black.

I wish him all the luck, but that’s not going to be enough, he is going to have to be carefull, steer clear from mid-east issues until November election.
Jim in Tokyo 8

5 May 2011 at 9:59 pm

Stuff.co.nz also went back and edited their own story during the day to obscure the fact that they misquoted Harawira.

Initially they reported that Harawira said we should ‘celebrate Bin Laden’s life’. 336 frenzied comments later, they closed comments then went back and changed the line in question to ‘celebrate life’.

Throughout, they did not quote Harawira but rather chose to paraphrase him in an intentionally misleading and inflammatory way.

I guess they figured the average stuff reader wouldn’t actually bother to watch the original Maori Television clip at the top of the page, and by in large they were right.
- stargazer 8.1
  
  5 May 2011 at 11:10 pm
  
  surely there’s plenty of scope for a press council complaint against both of these papers? as well as other media who have failed to report accurately.
- Jenny 8.2
  
  6 May 2011 at 3:37 am
  
  Jim in Tokyo
  
  Stuff.co.nz also went back and edited their own story during the day to obscure the fact that they misquoted Harawira.
  
  Jim your observation that Stuff went back to re-edit their lie after the fact is very telling.
  
  This alteration reminded me so strongly of the work of the ‘Ministry of Truth’, the fictional workplace of the George Orwell character Winston in the famous novel ‘1984’.
  
  Winston’s job at the Ministry of Truth was to go back to old news clippings and “correct” them. This was a fairly involved process meaning the actual hard copy archives had to be accessed and retyped, the original then having to be burnt in furnaces in the basement, of the building.
  
  George Orwell obviously had not imagined the invention of the internet and the desktop computer where the work of the ‘Ministry of Truth’ could be done electronically with just a few key strokes.
  
  I have often thought that the novel ‘1984’ was written as a warning by Orwell to his fellow journalists.
  
  I would advise all those involved in this ‘work’ to reread this old novel, and if they are able, hang their heads in shame.
Robert Atack 9

5 May 2011 at 10:26 pm

They had this so called death a mouth to late, it should have been on the 1st April, what with all the fools that believe it ffs.
You are the supposedly most wanted man in the world, living miles away from any recognised helicopter flight paths, then not only do 2 or 3 of them fly to, and then hover over your house, but one crashes and burns in your backyard … then some thugs blow a hole in your wall run up stairs and you are still sitting in or near your bed? Then they take your dead body 800 miles and drop you in the ocean. There must be a beer ad in this?
- Lanthanide 9.1
  
  6 May 2011 at 12:08 am
  
  It’s pretty simple, Robert. Either Osama is dead, and in the ocean, or he’s in American custody in a prison cell somewhere. It doesn’t really matter either way.
  
  He is certainly not alive and free somewhere – he would simply pop up in a new video, and show the US to be huge liars.
  
  You’re also acting like this was some routine helicopter run and they just took a side trip out to take Osama out on the way, which is frankly, bizarre.
- Drakula 9.2
  
  6 May 2011 at 8:47 pm
  
  How convenient it is for them to dump Bin Ladin’s body in the ocean, for all we know he could be still alive or he could have died even before the 9/11 attack.
  
  The CIA definately knew that there was a threat to those towers (Mike Moore) but just sat on the information.
  
  Wouldn’t that make them just as culpable as Bin Ladin? Maybe this is a subject for a seperate post.
  
  In the case of Hone’s misquote or blatant lie, the journalist involved should be disciplined, but then again how can they be disciplined if the rot is at a higher level?
  - Colonial Viper 9.2.1
    
    6 May 2011 at 9:05 pm
    
    BTW when you look at footage of the three large World Trade Centre buildings which came down on 9/11, all of them collapsed neatly and vertically on to their ground floor foot prints, minimising damage to nearby buildings.
    
    That pattern of structural disintegration also happens to be a characteristic of structures destroyed via carefully engineered controlled demolitions.
Samuel Hill 10

5 May 2011 at 10:33 pm

Well said Irish. Been saying this stuff about Harawira too. Mana is a Maori Socialist party, essentially with the same kind of image as a Maori Greens. The more people pick on Mana as to why it needs to be a Maori Party, the more they will find it hard to defend themselves. This is a Maori party trying to come across as a party for more than just Maoris, but will they campaign for General Electorate votes too? They are being attacked by a General electorate media. It isn’t just Maori voters watching you when you go on shows like Close Up. They are only a small party and it is silly for them to try and contest Maori seats and other Electorate seats.
- felix 10.1
  
  5 May 2011 at 10:52 pm
  
  Samuel,
  
  The bulk of this post is pretty much saying the exact opposite of what you’ve been saying about Hone today.
  
  This post is about how a horrible nasty lie has been spread.
  
  You’ve been helping to spread that lie today Samuel. Only an hour and a half before your comment here, you were busy spreading the lie.
  
  I’m starting to look sideways at you.
  - Samuel Hill 10.1.1
    
    6 May 2011 at 12:05 am
    
    Am I not allowed to attack both Mana and ACT? Is there some kind of contradiction in being a centrist?
    
    I have told you my point of view. You are very defensive about it. I am saying that I don’t care that Osama Bin Laden is dead, he deserves to be hung up for what he did. I don’t care about a trial for people like him. If it had been one of my own family killed on September 11, I would have probably wanted to hunt him down myself, despite my political understanding of Bin Laden’s Jihad on America.
    
    I have watched the video, and it doesn’t change my opinion, or my senses I get from Hone Harawira. Even if it is the traditional Maori view to say that we should not speak about the dead, or to only remember the good things in life about the dead, I don’t really care about that because MY personal beliefs hold that those things in the context of Osama Bin Laden are wrong. Now if this is Hone using his being Maori to hoax some extreme left wing people into his party, I am a little worried about a guy who puts bait out there like that. He certainly isn’t going to be pulling any centrists. If the leader of the National Party or Labour Party said these kind of things, I would suspect there would be some very interesting phone calls being made from certain countries.
    
    [lprent: Your opinion is one thing that the site generally doesn’t care about. However felix is pulling you up on your assertion of a fact about what Hone actually said. Support it or withdraw it. And read the policy. ]
    - felix 10.1.1.1
      
      6 May 2011 at 8:21 am
      
      So what?
      
      What you’ve been doing is misquoting and pretending that Hone said things he never said, and I still haven’t seen you acknowledge that yet.
      
      Very dishonest behaviour, Samuel.
      - Samuel Hill 10.1.1.1.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 8:39 am
        
        felix..
        
        What I did was quote the 3 news story which said that Hone Harawira said we should “honour” Osama Bin Laden. Now I will admit that haven’t found a direct quote of him even using the word honour, but I told you when I posted the story that it wasn’t me adding in the quotation marks. If this is bad behaviour I apologize for that.
        
        What I have found is a quote from Harawira saying that we should “acknowledge the positive aspects of life” in regard to Osama Bin Laden. That doesn’ change my opinion I already have of Harawira over sevral years watching him on television and in the media.
        
        [lprent: The short answer is that as far as I can see from the discussion he never said that he ‘honoured” him. If you want to repeat your assertion when challenged then you have to substantiate your assertion of fact with a link to something reputable. If you cannot then you will stop repeating it because as far as I’m concerned that would be a flamewar starter (see the policy).
        
        What you have replied with here is an argument against bad journalism (the point that Irish was making), another quote without a link, and a clearly stated opinion. The latter appears to be the only thing you’re expressing. ]
        
        felix 10.1.1.1.1.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 8:48 am
        
        And again, I’m not challenging your opinion. On anything.
        
        I’m just challenging your repetition of the lie. The one the post is about.
        
        So opinion away, have a big opinion party and invite all your opinions around for some opinion pie if you like. BUT when you use proven lies and pretend that they’re facts to give weight to your opinions, people are likely to point that out.
        
        Colonial Viper 10.1.1.1.1.2
        
        6 May 2011 at 8:48 am
        
        What I did was quote the 3 news story which said that Hone Harawira said we should “honour” Osama Bin Laden.
        
        Perpetrating someone else’s lie is still lying.
        
        Defending yourself doing that takes it one step further.
        
        Samuel Hill 10.1.1.1.1.3
        
        6 May 2011 at 10:40 am
        
        Here is the 3 News link from the original story I quoted.
        
        http://www.3news.co.nz/Hone-Harawira-Bin-Laden-fought-for-freedom/tabid/419/articleID/209839/Default.aspx
        
        I have already apologised for using what appears to be a misquote. I can’t find any footage of Harawira using the word “honoured”.
        
        Here is another quote though, and for all you people silly enough to think that I am an ACT Troll, the location of the link should cause you some delight:
        
        From the NBR:
        
        http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/bin-laden-freedom-fighter-harawira-nn-92331
        
        “We have heard nothing but negative things about him from the Americans, but he fought for the self-determination of his people and for his beliefs,” Mr Harawira said.
        
        “Indeed despite what the media has said, his family, his tribe, his people are in mourning. They mourn for the man who fought for the rights, the lands and the freedom of his people. We should not damn them in death but acknowledge the positive aspects of life.”
        
        I don’t agree with these comments. I don’t think Osama Bin Laden should be showed any respect, just as I don’t think he should be honoured. This adds to my opinion I already of Hone Harawira. Anyone who makes these kind of comments is either very misguided, or trying to get ignorant people to vote for them. I don’t like that.
        
        Does that cover everything?
        
        [lprent: I think that you have mistaken the intent of my warning. If I see another instance of you squirming and bullshitting when pulled up on a statement of fact, you’ll earn a ban. I really don’t care about your excuses or who are. I expect people commenting here to comply when warned, or offer an explanation about why they were doing what they did, or leave – not excuses. If I have to expend to much time moderating then I will ban for that as well.
        
        Moderators opinion about what is acceptable behavior counts here. Your opinion (or anyone elses) about what is acceptable behavior is just irrelevant waffle. Does that clarify things for you? ]
        
        Samuel Hill …
        
        6 May 2011 at 12:12 pm
        
        So what, I can’t even debate? I think you already have your opinion made up that you don’t like what I have to say. Squirming and bullshitting? Wow. I didn’t realise coming to an understanding with somebody else as to what their problem with what I had to say was squirming and bullshitting. I completely accept that I made an error and apologised. But now that I pull out some information that supports my feelings on the BIG PICTURE, I get threatened with a ban?
        
        I guess if I said fuck the police or wanted to have a tangi for Osama Bin Laden it would be fine though?
        
        Colonial Viper …
        
        6 May 2011 at 12:14 pm
        
        Interesting you think that you “perpetrating lies” = “debate”. Definitely reckon you are a NACT supporter tasked with undermining Hone.
        
        Samuel Hill …
        
        6 May 2011 at 12:23 pm
        
        What I’m essentially being told now is that I am not allowed to partake in the debate even after retracting statements I made using what I did not know at the time was false information.
        
        After reading your comments I made a clearer argument and used links as was requested and will do in the future.
        
        But I guess even challenging authority here will probably get me banned. I hope I am wrong.
        
        [lprent: Making a clear retraction is required. Trying to divert onto another topic does not constitute a retraction. As you say – state it clearly and I don’t have to waste my time as a moderator.
        
        Of course challenging ‘authority’ here will certainly get you banned, because the moderators define what is acceptable behavior here. You will be wasting our time, and that is a cardinal offense. A moments thought will tell you why.
        
        Remember the site is manned by volunteers who write posts, moderate, and do all of the scut work that is required to keep the site running. We’re doing this in our own time, and the last thing we need is some half-arsed know-it-all chewing up our time by trying to tell us how we should be running our site. We’ve been running it for nearly 4 years and know exactly what tends to work and what doesn’t (as reflected in the rising site stats). One part of that is that moderators don’t waste too much time arguing with people who indulge themselves in behavior that gets them a ban.
        
        Quite simply we make the rules that are followed because we are the ones doing the work and you are a guest. If you don’t like it then go elsewhere or start your own blog. But if you are a guest here then you will follow our less than onerous standards of behavior and don’t waste our time on something you can read in the about or the policy. ]
        
        felix …
        
        6 May 2011 at 1:01 pm
        
        Nah, being a dick will probably get you banned.
        
        I never saw you retract anything. In fact long after it was patiently explained and carefully shown by way of videos and links that you were repeating lies, you were still doing the same thing but with a slightly altered phrasing.
        
        In fact, Samuel, in your comment just above, with the links, you’re still trying to tie Hone to the idea of honouring Bin Laden.
        
        Absorb this:
        
        I’ve read Samuel’s comments. What sort of disgusting person would hate children? I don’t hate children. It all just adds to my opinion of Samuel Hill.
        
        That’s what you’re doing now.
        
        Seems like for quite a long time everyone tried to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you were misinformed, but the trouble is that even when you had to have known that, you carried on misinforming.
        
        Note: no-one has criticised your ability to express opinions or state facts. But don’t try your bullshit on me Sam.
        
        Samuel Hill …
        
        6 May 2011 at 1:45 pm
        
        Well done, you’re putting two and two together now felix..
        
        a)I don’t check this page every 5 minutes, nor the news. When you urged me to watch the videos etc yesterday, I did. And I have admitted several times that I was wrong to quote the TV 3 article.. When are you going to accept that? I will say it again. I WAS WRONG TO USE IT. SORRY.
        
        b)You are on the right track as to why I posted the NBR link with the actual quote. I am not using it to show that Harawira REALLY DOES SUPPORT OSAMA. No, I don’t believe that. I used the link to show that Hone was not scathing of Bin Laden, and in his initial answers on Te Karere, I think he was more or less pandering to far-left, anti-US voters.
        
        Ofcourse supporting Bin Laden and refusing to vilify him on his death are two completely different things. I do realise that. My point is that I don’t find Harawiras comments were the comments of somebody who I want to be in power in this country. If he had any type of knowledge as to what average kiwis think, he would have realised he was making a mistake with those comments. Thats why he had to apologise.
        
        The fact that he HAD TO APOLOGISE over the remarks he made, remarks I think he made not based on his opinion, but on his desire to appeal to voters outside the mainstream, shows to me a lack of class. If he had of just said, “Bin Laden did some terrible things, but I don’t think we should celebrate anybodys death” Then he wouldn’t be in this situation of him having to apologise.
        
        Thats all I am saying.
        
        Do you understand that? Please tell me you do.
        
        felix …
        
        6 May 2011 at 1:47 pm
        
        But that’s not all you’ve been saying Samuel. See my previous comment.
        
        Colonial Viper …
        
        6 May 2011 at 2:13 pm
        
        Samuel Hill doesn’t check The Standard every 5 minutes but has posted here, what dozens of times in the last few days?
        
        “Yeah right”.
        
        A NACTer tasked with taking Hone down.
        
        higherstandard …
        
        6 May 2011 at 2:17 pm
        
        Jees CV do you really think NACT want Hone to be taken down ?
        
        Really ?
        
        I’d think their view is that Mana and hone are heaven sent.
        
        Samuel Hill …
        
        6 May 2011 at 2:27 pm
        
        Hahaha. Thats all you’ve got to cling onto isn’t in Colonial Viper?
        
        Colonial Viper …
        
        6 May 2011 at 8:34 pm
        
        No what I have to cling too is frakin hot, babelicious and rich.
        
        You’re just a hobby
Rodel 11

5 May 2011 at 10:43 pm

Shame on Trevor. You should just roll over, respect and accept Harawira’s rants. Bullshit!
No Good for you Trev! Harawaia is your opposition, and a bullshit artist like Brash, Key and Co.

Get stuck into him and ridicule his nonsense which is as stupid as Brash’s crap, English’s deceit and Keys duplicity.
The Labour party needs the Mallards of this world. Show a bit of gumption Labour. Then people might vote for you.
Is this a Mana party website or wot?
- Wobble 11.1
  
  5 May 2011 at 11:06 pm
  
  Rodel – Are you a Labour Party hack or what?
- Colonial Viper 11.2
  
  5 May 2011 at 11:32 pm
  
  Not sure how Labour helps matters or itself by extending the misleading MSM hype.
Lanthanide 12

6 May 2011 at 12:10 am

It would be nice for the Johnny-come-lately media to actually investigate the original claim, and then report on that, rather than just copying what other media have said.

Imagine what it would be like if TV3 ran a story saying “news media biased: Hone doesn’t worship Osama”.
Sanctuary 13

6 May 2011 at 6:57 am

Another post yesterday here on the Wikileaks cables quoted an American diplomat remarking on our media’s “excessive fondness of political novelty” – a polite way of saying they are feckless and lazy. Given that, how can anyone, least of all Hone Harawira, not have guessed what they would focus on when he made those statements? There is no need for a plot against the left or against Maori. A lazy, ratings driven media is all you need.
- IrishBill 13.1
  
  6 May 2011 at 7:01 am
  
  But it’s helped along by some very hardworking and well organised operators on the right (and some stupid mistakes from the likes of Harawira).
PeteG 14

6 May 2011 at 7:23 am

Why then has Harawira apologised with:

“Using terror for political reasons is never acceptable. I apologise for how I expressed myself.”

And on this corrected quote:

“they [bin laden’s family] mourn for a man who fought for the rights, the land and the freedom of his people”

and “pursued independence for his people, his family and his tribe”.

There is no indication Hone is in a position to quote on behalf of bin Laden’s family, so this must be his own views on bin Laden as a freedom fighter, as Hone views himself.

I still agree with Morgan Godfery…

As I said, Hone does not lack control. This was not a random comment. It was a statement of genuine belief and a foolish one at that. If anything sinks the Mana Party it will be these sorts of deformed views – it will not be lack of discipline and control.
felix 15

6 May 2011 at 8:38 am

“There is no indication Hone is in a position to quote on behalf of bin Laden’s family”

Which he didn’t do.

“so this must be his own views on bin Laden as a freedom fighter, as Hone views himself.”

Except that it’s explicitly not. Duh. Who refers to himself as “they” you moron?
- PeteG 15.1
  
  6 May 2011 at 9:00 am
  
  Saying “they mourn” is a presumption, I guess it depends on what members of bin Laden’s family Hone is making the presumption for. Bin Laden has 20 known children with 5 wives. He had 54 known siblings. Difficult to talk for all of them, especially when you don’t know any of them.
  
  There is no indication that any of bin Laden’s family thought he “fought for the rights, the land and the freedom of his people”. So that must Harawira’s view on it – unless he or you can show otherwise.
  - felix 15.1.1
    
    6 May 2011 at 9:22 am
    
    I can show otherwise by pointing to the fucking words on the page – it’s quite clearly Hone’s presumption of the Bin Laden family’s views, no argument there.
    
    Perhaps they’re actually your views Pete. After all I don’t have any proof they’re not.
    - PeteG 15.1.1.1
      
      6 May 2011 at 9:30 am
      
      So yes, obviously it’s what Harawira thinks, or at least what he wanted to say.
      It is not a known view of anyone from the many in the bin Laden family.
      
      I didn’t say it and it’s not my view at all, you’re getting a bit desperate.
      - felix 15.1.1.1.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 12:41 pm
        
        Pete you’ve said twice now that because Hone presumes to know what the Bin Laden family are thinking, he must in fact be thinking the same thing he presumes they’re thinking.
        
        By that “reasoning” (and I do hesitate to call it that) if I say “Pete George blows goats and really, really likes it” does that somehow prove that actually I blow goats and really like it?
        
        I’d love to hear why you think that’s not the exact same argument you’re using.
        
        PeteG 15.1.1.1.1.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 1:12 pm
        
        There’s a major difference.
        
        You have absolutely no reason to link me with goats, so you either made it up completely or you personally have something with goats.
        
        I think there is a widespread recognition that Harawira was projecting his own ideas of himself onto the bin Laden family. It is not just me who thinks that. Harawira (or his strategists) seems to have recognised he erred, he has apologised. And I’ll repeat a quote from Morgan Godfer above:
        
        As I said, Hone does not lack control. This was not a random comment. It was a statement of genuine belief and a foolish one at that.
        
        felix …
        
        6 May 2011 at 1:33 pm
        
        Doesn’t alter anything.
        
        Here’s what I’m disputing: You said “So that must [be] Harawira’s view on it”
        
        A statement for which you have no basis whatsoever unless you use my “goats” reasoning.
        
        Please try again.
        
        PeteG …
        
        6 May 2011 at 1:58 pm
        
        It must be his view, he said it, “– unless he or you can show otherwise” – the bit of my statement you have omitted from your quote. Do you think it wasn’t his view?
        
        I think you’re being a bit of a goat about your “reasoning”.
        
        felix …
        
        6 May 2011 at 2:04 pm
        
        “It must be his view, he said it”
        
        It’s his view that it’s someone else’s view. That’s not the same thing as it being his view at all.
        
        You’re still using my “goat” reasoning to the letter.
        
        You’re saying that anything someone says about someone else automatically applies to them as well. This makes no sense whatsoever.
        
        Please try again without the goat reasoning.
        
        PeteG …
        
        6 May 2011 at 2:29 pm
        
        Suffering a bit of Fridayitis felix?
        
        Dispute it if you like, but I think it is fairly general knowledge that Harawira sees himself as someone who fights “for the rights, the land and the freedom of his people”.
        
        He said the bin Laden family mourn – probably some of them at least do that – for “for a man who fought for the rights, the land and the freedom of his people””.
        
        So Harawira said (and presumably thinks) bin Laden “fought for the rights, the land and the freedom of his people””.
        
        Harawira’s view of himself and his view of bin Laden appear to correlate. So it’s a reasonable assumption to make that it is his view on both counts. Don’t distract yourelf with your goat obsession, just see it as it is, it’s quite simple.
        
        lprent []
        
        6 May 2011 at 3:25 pm
        
        I’d agree with felix. You are using a goat screwing argument.
        
        I usually refer to it as a “1 + 1 = 11” argument beloved of such illogical thinkers as Whaleoil, Wishart and evidentially now yourself. This is because you leap to an unjustified conclusion based on the similarity of objects. This may be the basis of sympathetic magic and the current highest levels of right wing thought (eg Trump), but I just find it idiotic in the extreme.
        
        Pascal's bookie …
        
        6 May 2011 at 2:33 pm
        
        felix.
        
        I think Pete is very subtly trying to let us know that he believes all the things he assumes Hone does.
        
        It’s all that Straussian esoteric writing business.
        
        That ‘just see it as it is’, for example, is a dead give away.
        
        felix …
        
        6 May 2011 at 2:38 pm
        
        So this is what we have so far:
        
        a) Pete thinks Hone believes (x)
        
        b) Hone States that he believes someone else thinks (x)
        
        c) Therefore Hone must also believe (x)
        
        If there’s a step I’m missing, Pete, please point it out would you?
        
        edit: P’s b I think that might be it. After all he has repeated Hone’s statement a few times so I guess that means he agrees with it.
        
        ianmac …
        
        6 May 2011 at 2:42 pm
        
        PeteG says he has a comb. A rooster has a comb. Therefore Pete is a rooster. Simple.
        
        PeteG …
        
        6 May 2011 at 3:00 pm
        
        a) Pete thinks Hone believes (x)
        
        That’s the bit you seem to be struggling with (or pretending to struggle with). Are you really suggesting I’m the only one who thinks that?
        
        If you can understand that many people think something like that you might start to get it. I’ll put it in your sort of language:
        
        a) Many people think Hone believes (x).
        
        Then it’s not a huge step to:
        
        c) Therefore Hone may probably also believe (x)
        
        wtl …
        
        6 May 2011 at 3:27 pm
        
        a) Many people think Hone believes (x).
        
        Then it’s not a huge step to:
        
        c) Therefore Hone may probably also believe (x)
        
        Very good logic. Lets all use that logic and go back to the goats example. I think PeteG likes goats (see above). All those who think the same, please add your comments here. If ‘many’ people think that we will have:
        
        c) Therefore PeteG may probably like goats
        
        Pascal's bookie …
        
        6 May 2011 at 3:33 pm
        
        I’ve noticed people recently talking about PeteG’s unsavoury obsession with goats. Where there’s smoke there’s fire. That’s just simple logic.
        
        PeteG …
        
        6 May 2011 at 3:35 pm
        
        wtl – there’s a major flaw in your attempt at a mass attack. It’s obvious that no one has any idea of my views on goats, apart from felix acting like billy. And you know what Harawira is well known for.
        
        felix, you’ll have to try a bit harder, lp has not come in black so you can deliver you closing lecture under cover.
        
        lp – do you really think that “Harawira sees himself as fighting for the rights, the land and the freedom of his people” it an unjustified conclusion?
        
        Here’s some more from Morgan:
        
        It is not that Hone lacks discipline, he is not shooting from the hip, he genuinely believes that Osama Bin Laden is freedom fighter. I am no expert on the subject, but others more qualified than I have indicated that he was not – he was in fact a cruel and oppressive man with warped religious notions. Osama did not believe in freedom in the proper sense of the word.
        
        This is Hone’s most significant problem. He is supremely confident in his beliefs, but some of his beliefs are built upon romantic and ultimately fallacious notions. Hone Harawira immediately equates the underdog, the perceived anti-western/anti-colonial fighter with something good.
        
        He equated bin Laden’s fight with his romantic notion of his own.
        
        felix …
        
        6 May 2011 at 3:38 pm
        
        Dearest Pete, no-one said you were the only one.
        
        But now you’re back to plain old begging the question. You can’t use a lie in the Herald to prove itself because a bunch of people believed it was true.
        
        Also, you’ve mentioned goats quite a few times today. There’s obviously more to this Pete/goat connection than I first thought.
        
        Obviously.
        
        billy goat …
        
        6 May 2011 at 3:38 pm
        
        Speaking on behalf of NZ goats, I can confirm we have no interest in the advances of Pete G.
        
        wtl …
        
        6 May 2011 at 3:47 pm
        
        I wasn’t really calling for a mass attack, but rather pointing out the absurdity of your logic. If you feel threatened, you should have another look at your logic – you are basically saying that if enough people believe that y thinks x, then it is probably true that y thinks x. Is that fair? Judge for yourself.
        
        I don’t know you personally, neither do I know Harawira. All I can go by is what I see/read. The only reason you think Harawira thinks x is because of the reports in the MSM (unless I am mistaken and you know him personally). The same with comments about you. All I can go by are comments here. Yes, you have never said that you like goats. But neither did Harawira really say what was attributed to him. Yet somehow because it is reported in the media that Harawira thinks x, then it is true? Perhaps then, the only real flaw in my comment is that there isn’t a story in the MSM saying that PeteG likes goats (even if it is untrue). If there was, then more people would believe it, which, by your logic would make it true.
        
        felix …
        
        6 May 2011 at 3:52 pm
        
        “It’s obvious that no one has any idea of my views on goats, apart from felix acting like billy.”
        
        Not so, Pete. In fact there’s a growing consensus around your goat-related activities.
        
        ianmac mentioned that you might be a cock, and I’m not sure what that means but it’s all farmyard-related, isn’t it?
        
        PeteG …
        
        6 May 2011 at 4:01 pm
        
        It’s obvious you’re running out of flawed argument when you resort to that. Trying the direct flame approach and see if that works?
        
        no-one said you were the only one.
        
        If you concede I’m not the only one and that there may be many others it blows your wee game away a bit, doesn’t it.
        
        lprent …
        
        6 May 2011 at 4:21 pm
        
        Ummm looks like goat friday to me… Follows the week after good friday.
        
        PeteG …
        
        6 May 2011 at 4:43 pm
        
        You’re kidding, Good Friday was two weeks ago.
        
        felix …
        
        6 May 2011 at 5:05 pm
        
        “If you concede I’m not the only one and that there may be many others it blows your wee game away a bit, doesn’t it.”
        
        No, because I think you and others are wrong together.
        
        Durr.
the sprout 16

6 May 2011 at 8:51 am

great post – thanks for writing this Irish.
it helps a lot to know there are still a few sane, skeptical people out there.

Mallard’s post on Red Alert really underscored what an embittered has-been arsehole he’s become.
Daveo 17

6 May 2011 at 10:48 am

Looks like the lie is becoming a diplomatic incident now. Well done liars you’ve really done us all proud as a nation now.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/4970392/Harawiras-bin-Laden-comments-hit-Pakistan
- Colonial Viper 17.1
  
  6 May 2011 at 11:49 am
  
  Yeah the MSM liars didn’t look that far ahead.
  
  Now it’s taken a life of it’s own, as these things do, and threatens NZ’s reputation.
- higherstandard 17.2
  
  6 May 2011 at 2:12 pm
  
  Hone has no one to blame but himself, he should think twice before he opens his mouth – this is just another example in a long list of his fuck ups which suggests he’s a combination of a bit of a thickee and a stirrer.
  - felix 17.2.1
    
    6 May 2011 at 2:19 pm
    
    Kind of yeah.
    
    It was dumb* enough that he said what he did say, but that doesn’t give the media a license to make up other shit and pretend he said that too.
    
    *unless this is what he wanted in which case not** so dumb.
    
    **unless “what he wanted” was a dumb idea all along, in which case refer to the start of this comment.
    - ianmac 17.2.1.1
      
      6 May 2011 at 2:45 pm
      
      Hone reached the Pakistan and Brit news but they print his words without a slant that our MSM put on it. And I think that there is a certain amount of support for his position even when misrepresented.
      - PeteG 17.2.1.1.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 3:01 pm
        
        Do you support the position he took on bin Laden Ian?
        
        The position he then apologised for?
        
        felix 17.2.1.1.1.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 3:43 pm
        
        Those are two different things Pete.
        
        1. As I understand it he apologised for the way he expressed his opinion, and
        
        2. as you’re demonstrating on the other thread you have a very different idea of what his “position” was than I do.
        
        You’re asking whether I agree with something that I’m not at all certain exists, and even if it does I may define it differently to you. So there’s no possible answer to that really.
        
        If you sort out a straight question I’d be happy to give you a straight answer.
        
        felix …
        
        6 May 2011 at 5:08 pm
        
        Not interested in that course of action Pete? Shock I am.
        
        Puddleglum 17.2.1.1.1.2
        
        6 May 2011 at 7:22 pm
        
        PeteG,
        
        I have a slightly different take on this than Felix. I think, for good reasons, that Hone may well (indeed should) believe that Bin Laden was “a man who fought for the rights, the land and the freedom of his people”. It would be curious to believe otherwise since the evidence is almost overwhelming that that is exactly why Bin Laden was fighting.
        
        Here’s my view of Bin Laden, his beliefs, Bin Laden’s family’s beliefs (I know, there’s lots of them and they probably have different beliefs) and your beliefs about Hone’s beliefs.
        
        Judging by numerous releases (videos, recordings, statements, etc.) that appear to have come from Osama Bin Laden, I have every reason to believe that Bin Laden himself believed he was fighting a ‘good’ fight which, at least in part, involved liberating Saudi Arabia and Muslim’s in general (i.e., ‘freeing’ them) so that they could live Muslim lives in their lands without being dominated by foreigners.
        
        It also seems reasonable to believe that a number of members of Bin Laden’s family supported him (some of them were in his ‘compound’, some were his children, etc.). Therefore, it also seems reasonable that at least some of them believed what he believed – that he was fighting for freedom and to liberate ‘his people’, etc..
        
        When Bin Laden died, those same family members would, I believe, have mourned for him (they were family, after all). Part of that mourning was, therefore, for someone who was understood, by himself and by them, to be fighting for freedom for his people and for their lands.
        
        So, when Hone said that “they [bin laden’s family] mourn for a man who fought for the rights, the land and the freedom of his people” and “pursued independence for his people, his family and his tribe” this seems extraordinarily accurate, even a truism, unless we assume that Bin Laden’s motives were not genuine.
        
        But, once again, from his recordings, writings, etc. Bin Laden seemed pretty genuine about being motivated by concern for the ‘rights, land and freedom of his people’. Unless we have some conspiracy that Bin Laden was some sort of CIA agent provocateur then those do seem to be his motives. Of course, we might think that the means by which he chose to pursue those ends were grotesque and utterly unjustified but that doesn’t change what appears to be the fact that some such motivation was driving him.
        
        I’d agree that Hone was unwise to voice these almost self-evident truths because it would have been obvious that his political opponents – and those who have no sympathy with his other views concerning Maori sovereignty – would try to imply that his words were evidence for, not only that Hone believed that Bin Laden was motivated by such motives (as, quite obviously, were the Saudis on the planes, the London underground bombers, etc.) but also that he approved of the means by which Bin Laden pursued them. That’s one reason why politicians are routinely afraid to voice self-evident truths – they often go against some myth or other that has hold of the public imagination, for various reasons.
        
        Hone’s opponents (e.g., you) may genuinely believe that Hone does approve of the means Bin Laden used but Hone’s actions (e.g., becoming an MP rather than, for example, trying to organise a guerilla army) suggest that he is not himself predisposed to use those means. In other words, I can’t see the evidence from Hone’s actions that he would approve of Bin Laden’s means. Do you have such evidence?
        
        To try to clarify my argument here’s a starter for 10, PeteG: Do you think Bin Laden thought that he was fighting for the ‘rights, the land and the freedom of his people’?
        
        If ‘yes’, then you agree entirely with Hone’s comments quoted above. If ‘no’, then you must have some evidence that Bin Laden’s motives were not those he expressed, and that Bin Laden was either unaware of his true motivation or was part of some deception and had other reasons for his actions.
        
        PeteG …
        
        6 May 2011 at 11:17 pm
        
        I have no idea what bin Laden’s motivation was over a couple of decades.
        
        Bin Laden was outspoken against the Saudi government, he was banished and had his passport revoked.
        
        As a result of his dealings in and advocacy of violent extremist jihad, Osama bin Laden lost his Saudi citizenship in 1994 and was disowned by his billionaire family.
        
        So he didn’t exactly fight for the “rights, the land and the freedom of his people”. He buggered off to the Sudan and then to Afghanistan, countries of other people. You can debate whether he fought there for those people and their land, or for his own religious ambitions.
        
        Puddleglum …
        
        7 May 2011 at 8:39 pm
        
        Bin Laden was obviously concerned at the deployment of US troops in Saudi Arabia. Your quote is from the 9/11 Commission Report. In your link, however, in the section preceding (on Al Qaeda’s formation) you’ll note that the reason given there for his exile was his outspoken criticism of the Saudi government for allowing US troops on Saudi soil (i.e., not because of “his dealings in and advocacy of violent extremist jihad – after all, in Wahabi Saudi Arabia that’s a very common advocacy).
        
        It’s also well acknowledged (it appears in many of the tapes purported to be from him) that he supported Palestinians in their attempts to gain statehood and condemned the actions of Israel and presence of the US. Irrespective of your position on the Israel-Palestinian conflict, it’s clear Bin Laden was advocating Palestinians rights to their land and to be a free people.
        
        On the matter of religion, yes he undoubtedly was a very pious man and sees most of the ‘freedom fighting’ occurring in the Muslim world as part of some religious drama. But I don’t see how that is incompatible with him fighting for the “rights, the land adn the freedom of his people” (whether those people be Saudi’s or Muslims in general). After all, many WWII partisans fighting German occupation were committed communists and socialists and probably saw the battle as a political and ideological one (and part of an international and global battle). I don’t think anyone, however, would deny that they were freedom fighters. And, in Spain, the International Brigade were composed of foreigners (so, of course, was the fascist army – Italians and Germans) who were motivated by various values, ideologies and the like. Once again, I don’t think anyone would claim they weren’t fighting for the freedom of Spain and the Spanish people.
        
        I really don’t see why advocating jihad somehow means Bin Laden is not someone who fights for “the rights, the land and the freedom of his people”. It’s pretty clear, isn’t it, that in the last couple of decades his main enemy was western power exercised in Muslim lands? He opposed western power dominating, invading and taking over those lands, didn’t he? If ‘yes’, then isn’t it a very simple step to see that he was fighting for rights, land and freedom for ‘his’ people?
        
        I think the reason why people think that this would be a terrible thing to ascribe to Bin Laden is that, for some reason, they think that ascribing that motive necessitates ‘respecting’ or ‘approving’ of his means to achieve those rights and freedoms. Obviously it doesn’t. No-one has to concede that he’s a ‘good man’ or that what he did was ‘ok’ just because we acknowledge that he fought for what, in many circumstances, we would see as a good cause. The ‘ends’ might be fine (I, for one, certainly think that western powers – or any powers – should stop interfering in other people’s countries); but there’s still the means to consider.
        
        A ‘noble’ end doesn’t give a free moral pass to the means. In fact, in many, if not most, cases, it is the means that determine the overall moral content of someone’s actions, not the end for which they act (or for which they claim to act).
Armchair Worrier 18

6 May 2011 at 4:49 pm

Regardless of whether their was a slight misquotation of Hone’s words his sense is clear – the day that justice was served on the worst terrorist of modern times, he chooses to point out that his family will mourn him as a fighter for ‘the rights, the land and the freedom of his people”. The timing and word choice betray his sympathies.
This either shows an ignorance of recent history – OBL fought for the restoration of the medieval infidel free caliphate under the most repressive brand of Islam and was inarguably an enthusiast for the removal of the rights, lands and freedom of those who didnt happen to share his warped version of islam, or a deliberate alignment with ANY anti western movement no matter how violent their methods. Then again perhaps its both . ..
Jim in Tokyo 19

6 May 2011 at 4:57 pm

This just gets worse and worse. Did anybody actually watch the video? Obviously not readers of the NBR, otherwise they would have picked up on the fact that the NZPA article is also based on a fabricated quote:

http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/bin-laden-freedom-fighter-harawira-nn-92331

““We have heard nothing but negative things about him from the Americans, but he fought for the self-determination of his people and for his beliefs,” Mr Harawira said.”

This was actually word for word a quote from the presenter of the show – Harawira said nothing of the sort. He was actually relatively diplomatic in his response:

“Indeed, despite what the media have said, his family, his tribe, his people are in mourning. They mourn for the man who fought for the rights, the land, the freedom of his people”.

As to why he went even this far, he helpfully bookends his comments by explaining TWICE that it is Maori protocol to honour all dead, a point which also got lost in the mainstream media scramble.

“We should not damn them in death, but acknowledge the positive aspects of life”.
- Pascal's bookie 19.1
  
  6 May 2011 at 5:04 pm
  
  Now there’s a classy bunch of commenters. A number of folks wishing Hone dead.
  
  Does Collins know?
Toby Keith 20

6 May 2011 at 5:35 pm

He called him a freedom fighter, Hone deserves all the crap that he is getting from the media and the public, to support that statement your not re4ally grounded in reality.
- ianmac 20.1
  
  6 May 2011 at 6:11 pm
  
  USA has sharp shooters.
  The enemy have snipers.
  The USA have Freedom Fighters.
  The people fighting invaders in Afghanistan are terrorists.
  The USA suffered 3,000 terrible losses in 9/11.
  Iraq suffered terrible civilian losses in excess of 500,000 but they were just collateral damage.
  USA carries out an extra-judicial assassination in another country.
  Others regard Justice and the right to a fair trial as indications of a fair society.
  
  Just depends on your point of view really.
  - PeteG 20.1.1
    
    6 May 2011 at 6:16 pm
    
    What’s your point of view on what Osama bin Laden was Ian?
    - Colonial Viper 20.1.1.1
      
      6 May 2011 at 6:29 pm
      
      Osama was some unarmed guy who got executed in cold blood by a heavily armed US special forces detachment, probably on orders.
      
      Osama is also a Weapon of Mass Distraction.
      
      He’s not going to help the US from circling down the drain and he’s not going to help the tens of millions of American unemployed, underemployed and living in poverty even as over a trillion US$ have been spent in military adventures in Iraq and Afghanistan.
      
      Lots of money available for the military industrial complex and their major shareholders, none for teachers, police, health and fire services.
      - joe90 20.1.1.1.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 6:36 pm
        
        One version, executed.
        
        Colonial Viper 20.1.1.1.1.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 6:43 pm
        
        Yeah, the President needed to assert political strength in the US, and capturing Osama would have led to a trial which would have been a major distraction for the Obama administration for months (as well as probably kept ratcheting up tensions with Pakistan).
        
        This way its a done deal, totally “surgical” and contained. And Obama gets political points for being a tough war time President who is not afraid of making tough calls.
        
        Pascal's bookie …
        
        6 May 2011 at 7:27 pm
        
        There is that, certainly. But that’s not all of it.
        
        Taking him alive would have entailed a lot more risk of failure. If the headlines had of been along the lines of “Dozens killed in botched raid” with the Whitehouse claiming that the house that exploded was where bin laden was hiding, and the Pakistanis going full bore ‘outrage against our sovereignty’?
        
        AQ could easily have announced it first, hailing the glorious martyrdom of obl, who refused to be taken by the infidel and detonated a prepared welcome for the infidel, taking out a squad of their finest crusaders blah blah blah.
        
        It’s complicated.
    - Pascal's bookie 20.1.1.2
      
      6 May 2011 at 6:31 pm
      
      Fairly accomplished practitioner of 4th generation warfare. Wahhabist. Developed and put into practice Qtibs (sp?) strategies. Charismatic by all accounts. Disciplined. Not a cartoon character.
      - rosy 20.1.1.2.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 6:51 pm
        
        Fairly accomplished practitioner of 4th generation warfare
        
        who aimed to take down the US financially rather than militarily, hence the symbolic target of the world trade center and targeting transportation systems. He may well have succeeded… the endgame is still to be played out.
        
        Pascal's bookie 20.1.1.2.1.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 7:00 pm
        
        Yeah, they aren’t even hiding anymore. There was a discussion paper they published a while ago, in english, laughing at western responses to ‘failed’ attempts on airliners. Cost to AQ was around 40K, cost to west in terms of heightened security measures, millions/year.
        
        I’ll try and track it down
        
        Colonial Viper …
        
        6 May 2011 at 7:15 pm
        
        Imagine crippling or destroying a US$4M Abrams tank using a US$200 IED based off a couple of salvaged Saddam Hussein era land mines. That’s a 20,000:1 pay off. Doesn’t get much better than that.
        
        Osama Bin Laden has effectively a trillion dollars to the American federal debt with a spend of just a couple of million (if that), and the cost to the Americans is still climbing.
        
        Pascal's bookie …
        
        6 May 2011 at 7:16 pm
        
        Here tis:
        
        http://securityinnovator.com/index.php?articleID=15989&sectionID=27
        
        not 40k, 4k.
        
        More editions of the purported AQ mag here:
        
        http://publicintelligence.net/complete-inspire-al-qaeda-in-the-arabian-peninsula-aqap-magazine/
        
        Interesting stuff. I’m mainly interested by the vast gulf between the strategic narratives outlined in their propaganda and ours.
        
        rosy …
        
        6 May 2011 at 8:00 pm
        
        Thanks, that is really important information. I don’t understand why politicians in the west are not making clear how the Jihad strategy is working. Not sure how it would play out in the court of public opinion, but it can’t be any worse that the ‘clash of civilisations’ narrative, which incidentally the Arab Spring is proving so wrong.
        
        Pascal's bookie …
        
        6 May 2011 at 8:26 pm
        
        but it can’t be any worse that the ‘clash of civilisations’ narrative, which incidentally the Arab Spring is proving so wrong.
        
        Great point!
        
        I often think, looking at how the US speaks about the conflict, that it is being fought mainly for domestic reasons. It gets used as a prop in the internal battle over what the US is, and much of the propaganda is aimed more at getting victories in that fight than in the, err, other one.
        
        joe90 …
        
        6 May 2011 at 9:40 pm
        
        in that fight
        
        I take it that you’re referring to this fight.
        
        btw, the book is free.
        
        rosy …
        
        6 May 2011 at 9:59 pm
        
        Yes, I’ve always thought that the clash of civilisations narrative is to unite the disunited states under, at the time, Bush. All wrapped in the flag of rabid patriotism. A trick that has been used for eons and the public still falls for it. Everywhere.
        
        joe90 …
        
        6 May 2011 at 8:13 pm
        
        Fascinating PB, thanks.
        
        ianmac …
        
        6 May 2011 at 9:13 pm
        
        The $4k program would actually have played into the hands of unscrupulous USA politicians. “You see folks? We are under threat. You must get used to more powers for Homeland security because there is much to fear, fear, fear. And who knows your subjection gives me more power!”
    - ianmac 20.1.1.3
      
      6 May 2011 at 7:23 pm
      
      Damn . I wrote a fulsome reply to that Pete and it vanished.
      Summary. Read years ago about bin Laden’s early road-building life for his adopted Afghanistan.
      His fight against Russia for USA. The oil pipeline USA was blocked from having across Afghanistan. Bin Laden the Freedom fighter for USA becomes named as a terrorist. 9/11 carried out mostly by Saudis from whom bin Laden had been long since disengaged. 3,000 innocents killed. Iraq lost hundreds of thousands of innocents but they were just collateral. Have to accept bin Laden had a hand in 9/11 but never know now because they killed him. USA invades Afghanistan. Pipeline built by USA for USA. bin Laden the focus of the rhetoric. Hated universally.
      Like most people bin Laden was a mixture of good and bad. His good stuff is forgotten. His bad stuff is evil by Western standards. Would USA have found another excuse to invade Iraq/Afghanistan if not bin Laden? Probably. Should he have been brought to trial .Yes. Should G W Bush be brought to trial for the same reasons? Yes.
      Christian, Islam arguments are eternal and usually hopeless.
      
      Try bin Laden in an International Court and it would be clearer.
      Am I glad that he was killed in such a way? No.
      Was he a freedom fighter? In many ways yes.
      Was he responsible for terrorist acts? So they tell me.
      Did he believe in what he was doing? Yep. Was he right to do all that he has done. Dunno.
      Was he better/worse than many other Leaders? What do you think?
      - PeteG 20.1.1.3.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 7:55 pm
        
        Thanks Ian. I agree or don’t disagree with much of this but with a bit of a different slant to some things.
        
        He may have freedom fighting in mind at times but it was a very narrow freedom that was destructive or repressive for many people.
        He has claimed responsibility for 9/11.
        I’m not “glad” he was killed in that way but I’m not sorry that he’s dead.
        I don’t think he was “right” to do what he has done, in the main he was a murdering bastard, like Hitler (who also did good things for Germany and many Germans).
        
        Actually he wasn’t a freedom fighter or murdering bastard, he got others to do his dirty work.
        
        Colonial Viper 20.1.1.3.1.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 8:22 pm
        
        Actually he wasn’t a freedom fighter or murdering bastard, he got others to do his dirty work.
        
        Pretty sure that Osama has killed his share of Soviet troopers, and done so personally, face to face.
        
        NickS …
        
        6 May 2011 at 9:31 pm
        
        Nyet.
        
        In Steve Coll’s book Ghost Wars Osama’s personal fighting experience was apparently limited to one battle, where his base of operations at the time was attacked directly by the Soviets. Osama was primarily a strategist, funder and Islamic scholar and aside from that one battle he staid out of the firing lines encamped along the Afghan-Pakistan borders for most of the USSR occupation of Afghanistan, where the Arab volunteers, arms and money from the Pakistani’s and the Gulf States streamed across the border.
        
        Puddleglum …
        
        6 May 2011 at 10:45 pm
        
        Hi NickS,
        
        Jason Burke obviously disagrees with Steve Coll – see point 5
        
        NickS …
        
        6 May 2011 at 11:05 pm
        
        Forgot about the second battle 😛
        Thanks.
        
        Though I think Burke’s wrong about the arms and training supplies, but since I no longer have Ghost Wars on me, I can’t check that one out…
        
        What’s more interesting though is the veracity of prior reports on Bin Laden’s health per his kidney problems, as general word from the media was that he needed dialysis. But if his renal issues weren’t major as Burke claims, then drugs would probably easily deal with it and mean Bin Laden could far more easily hide.
        
        ianmac 20.1.1.3.1.2
        
        6 May 2011 at 8:55 pm
        
        PeteG @ 7:55 Like G W Bush? Would a person foreign to USA be justified in slipping into the country and killing the President for the distant killings that he authorised?
        
        PeteG …
        
        6 May 2011 at 9:10 pm
        
        I don’t know if justified is the right word (it could be) but I think it would at least be understandable. I’m aware the US is seen as an invading country by many Iraqis and Afghanis (I sort of accepted going into Afghanistan but was totally against the Iraqi invasion).
        
        It’s totally unjustified when the target it is a bunch of innocent people in a couple of skyscrapers.
        
        Andrew Geddis touches on some of this here.
        
        rosy …
        
        6 May 2011 at 9:49 pm
        
        Yes I too accepted that the US had a right to chase OBL down in Afganistan, but had no right whatsover to go into Iraq. That is not the same as saying I agree with how the US handled their operation in Afganistan.
        
        I’m totally in agreement with Andrew Geddis.
        
        Vicky32 …
        
        6 May 2011 at 10:02 pm
        
        Oh Pete, why is it that you and, it seems almost everyone else in this country, main stream media, woman in the street, man in the takeaway bar takes it for granted that OBL was, as the media keep saying “the architect of 9/11”?
        It’s a ‘popular misconception’ that he took responsibility.
        
        PeteG …
        
        6 May 2011 at 11:04 pm
        
        The US and UK governments and OBL himself claim he is responsible.
        
        The Terrorist Threat Confronting the United States
        The evidence linking Al-Qaeda and Bin Laden to the attacks of September 11 is clear and irrefutable.
        
        RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE TERRORIST ATROCITIES IN THE UNITED STATES, 11 SEPTEMBER 2001
        . The clear conclusions reached by the government are:
        Usama Bin Laden and Al Qaida, the terrorist network which he heads, planned and carried out the atrocities on 11 September 2001;
        
        Osama claims responsibility for 9/11
        Al Qaeda terrorist network leader Osama bin Laden said in an audiotape broadcast by the Al Jazeera satellite channel that he himself had assigned 19 people for the Sep 11, 2001, attacks in the US.
        
        Bin Laden claims responsibility for 9/11
        Al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden appeared in a new message aired on an Arabic TV station Friday night, for the first time claiming direct responsibility for the 2001 attacks against the United States.
        
        The Voice of Reason …
        
        6 May 2011 at 11:12 pm
        
        Wikipedia beg to differ:
        
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_for_the_September_11_attacks
        
        ianmac …
        
        6 May 2011 at 11:51 pm
        
        Interesting VOR. We have to trust (?) that the Intelligence Agencies got it right in blaming bin Laden – unless there were compelling reasons to have a focus on one person especially one associated with Afghanistan – oil pipeline and all that.
        And quite possible for bin Laden to claim responsibility after the fact for motives of his own. Pity he can’t be questioned by someone who could be trusted.
William Joyce 21

6 May 2011 at 6:34 pm

Not wanting to get into what Hone said or didn’t say, or whether US foreign policy is good or bad, or if he received justice or was illegally executed…..
The idea that Osama was a freedom fighter is a misuse of the term. He was not fighting for democracy, the right of women to vote, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and so many other forms of self-determination.
He “war” was a war of religion and the only politics that interested him were those associated with his religious goals.
He fought for the freedom to practice religion, but only his religion.
He fought for the freedom to practice Islam and only his form of Islam.
He fought for the freedom to remove the infidel from “Muslim lands” and would ultimately want them gone from all lands.
He fought for the freedom to “remove” all Muslim “compromisers”, all those who did not follow his form of Islam.
He fought for the freedom to eliminate the infidel from the world either through conversion or the sword.

It is wrong, and ill informed, to label him a freedom fighter.
- Colonial Viper 21.1
  
  6 May 2011 at 6:45 pm
  
  Actually, Bin Laden fought to free Afghanistan and her people from an oppressive occupying foreign military superpower* which had invaded his adopted homeland. So yeah, Osama was definitely and definitively a Freedom Fighter of the day.
  
  *Not the USA.
  - William Joyce 21.1.1
    
    6 May 2011 at 6:58 pm
    
    The infidels were in a Muslim land.
    If the situation had been such you would have seen that he was not fighting for the right of self-determination for Afghans. After the Russians left, if the Afghans had voted en masse to establish a secular state with freedom of religion you would have seen OBL fighting that democratic Afghan state instead.
    But that was never tested by circumstances/history so people make the mistake of thinking he was fighting for the freedom of Afghanistan.
    - Colonial Viper 21.1.1.1
      
      6 May 2011 at 7:09 pm
      
      I’m sorry William, but Freedom Fighters don’t have to fight for the United State’s ideals of democracy, self determination and freedom. They fight for their own ideals and values.
      
      Even if the United States trained and armed them anyway because it was convenient to US foreign policy at the time.
      - William Joyce 21.1.1.1.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 7:21 pm
        
        Well, CV, the ideas of democracy, self-determination, freedom etc pre-date the US and are not owned by the US.
        Just because the US spout these ideas (and then don’t live up to them) does not make them American.
        “They fight for their own ideals and values.” – you missed my point. It is quite possible that he would have opposed them if their “own ideals and values.” disagreed with his.
        He would not have sanctioned them having the freedom to choose things he did not agree with. Therefore, he was not fighting for freedom. Therefore, he was not a Freedom Fighter.
        
        Colonial Viper 21.1.1.1.1.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 7:25 pm
        
        Well, call him whatever you want then, but I distinctly recall Reagan calling his bunch Freedom Fighters. Fighting against an oppressive dictatorial foreign Communist state.
        
        rosy 21.1.1.1.1.2
        
        6 May 2011 at 8:12 pm
        
        He would not have sanctioned them having the freedom to choose things he did not agree with. Therefore, he was not fighting for freedom. Therefore, he was not a Freedom Fighter.
        
        Agree. And his habit of moving into failed or divided states for protection and influence pretty much proves it. Especially supporting and supported by the repressive Taliban that did not have support of the country outside of what they could hold with terror, and his move to Sudan. That was also the US biggest mistake with the Iraq war – creating another failed state for AQ to do more dirty work – note the Sunni/Shia divide here that also show there was no sanctioning of freedoms.
        
        btw: Ianmac I don’t know how you can say you dunno if he was right to do all that he has done. The US is wrong to blow up thousands of innocents and destroy nations for a bigger political objective and so was Osama.
        
        ianmac …
        
        6 May 2011 at 8:33 pm
        
        Yes Rosy. How would the World react if a force swept into USA and assassinated their President as the perpetrator of those crimes? Would you say it was right to kill the President?
        
        rosy …
        
        6 May 2011 at 10:07 pm
        
        No, I would say it’s wrong to kill the president, just like I can say it was wrong to kill OBL.
        
        But that’s not the point – the point was you said you don’t know if OBL was right to do all the things he’s done. I can’t see how there is any doubt that his killing of innocents is wrong – WTC, London, Madrid and the rest. Wrong. End of. Murder is wrong no matter who does it and for whatever reason. I guess that’s just how I think, I’m not going to argue it.
    - Pascal's bookie 21.1.1.2
      
      6 May 2011 at 7:20 pm
      
      Just saying, but there is absolutely no reason to believe that Afghans would vote en masse to establish a secular state with freedom of religion.
      - Colonial Viper 21.1.1.2.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 7:23 pm
        
        Americans have a bad habit of not recognising democratically elected governments if they are unfriendly.
        
        In the US value system, being democratic is totally optional. But being friendly to the US is totally necessary.
      - William Joyce 21.1.1.2.2
        
        6 May 2011 at 7:26 pm
        
        @PB : Absolutely, of course not, not in a month of Sundays.
        
        Pascal's bookie 21.1.1.2.2.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 7:29 pm
        
        So what are we for? Self determination?
        
        William Joyce …
        
        6 May 2011 at 8:03 pm
        
        Just for clarity, I started my post with….
        “Not wanting to get into what Hone said or didn’t say, or whether US foreign policy is good or bad, or if he received justice or was illegally executed…..”
        Can I add to that
        – I am making no statement (at least not now) about whether western ideas of freedom are good or bad.
        – I am making no statement (at least not now) about what Afghanistan (whatever that means given it’s composition) should do or not do regarding any of those values.
        I am merely pointing out the contradiction of calling someone a freedom fighter who was not interested in providing freedom.
        As I state below, the best we can say about him is that he fought for the liberation of Afghanistan from a Soviet invasion.
- rosy 21.2
  
  6 May 2011 at 6:53 pm
  
  Well said William Joyce. He may have been a freedom fighter once upon a time, but he resigned from that role a long, long time ago.
- ianmac 21.3
  
  6 May 2011 at 7:36 pm
  
  William” “The idea that Osama was a freedom fighter is a misuse of the term.”
  The freedoms that you list are your view of what freedoms you think should be and suggests that other people are bad if they don’t subscribe to them.
  Freedom could be just the right of a person or group to have self-determination about how they do anything. If someone especially those outside your country tries to impose a different belief system then you might fight for freedom is to protect your beliefs.
  If some one tries to tell your country that your women must dress in certain ways, or worship in certain ways or have a different justice system, I imagine you would want to fight them to defend your way.
  On reflection the things you list above would be good to fight for for those who are passionate about their beliefs.
  Off to buy my fish and chips.
  - William Joyce 21.3.1
    
    6 May 2011 at 7:50 pm
    
    Ianmac, instead of reading day old news around your fish and chips, read a book on how to make an argument. (Then try reading comprehension).
    You will find that I did not promote those “ideals”. So my personal beliefs about them are not the issue nor was I suggesting that Afghanistan should adopt them. Understand?
    Freedom involves the right to choose. I used examples of what the west describe as freedoms to show instances of the sort of things that OBL would not have been happy with. And should Afghanistan have chosen (which they probably wouldn’t) then he would have opposed the choice of the Afghan people and therefore their freedom to choose. Therefore he was not fighting for freedom.
    At best he could be described as fighting for the liberation of Afghanistan from the Soviet occupation. To claim more than that misses his motivation.
    I hope the fish and chips were nice.
    - Carol 21.3.1.1
      
      6 May 2011 at 8:19 pm
      
      Philosophy 101: “Freedom” means nothing as a word on its own. It can mean “freedom from xxxx” or “freedom to xxxxx”. So WJ, you are just using the notion of “freedom” in a very specific way and with meanings it has in a very specific cultural context.
      - William Joyce 21.3.1.1.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 9:15 pm
        
        Absolutely Carol.
        I was not discussing freedom as some ethereal, abstract concept, in the way that it falls so readily off the lips of Americans, without definitions or conditions. [“Even in freedom there is no freedom” – please discuss for Phil 101 midterm :-)]
        The use of the term freedom fighter infers some one who is fighting for the freedom to choose X or Y. They would not have been truly to chose either X or Y IF either X or Y was against his wishes.
        If (X AND “OBL doesn’t allow X”) then Y, else Y
        – also Philosophy 101.
        All OBL was doing was fighting for is the removal of one form of unchosen government for another form of unchosen government.
        
        Carol 21.3.1.1.1.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 9:23 pm
        
        Or, William, it can mean fighting for freedom from a specific kind of repression or government. Your focus on “choice” is just one form, while you don’t rate the other freedom from. But that indicates your western cultural values. Also the focus on freedom to choose suggests western individualistic values too. For some people freedom might mean freedom to eat regularly as supplied to them by a fairly autocratic government that chooses for them what they will eat.
        
        William Joyce …
        
        6 May 2011 at 10:15 pm
        
        Well, food for thought, Carol.
        Again to labour the Phil 101 theme, perhaps we are constrained by language here. A fighter who “frees from” one oppression only to replace it with another is just a “steward” on a slave ship who has given you a window seat.
        Perhaps I will have to accept that to everyone else FF is just inadequate short hand for “a person who liberates a people group from one form of oppression, regardless of whether that person goes on to institute another form of oppression”.
        I guess, all I can say is that I won’t dignify the man with the phrase freedom fighter anymore than I will call John Key an advocate for the poor.
    - ianmac 21.3.1.2
      
      6 May 2011 at 8:47 pm
      
      William. I was not really trying to make an argument and yes the f&c were excellent; very crisp and fresh.
      I was really just considering the idea of freedom and what it means depending on where you stand. Abortion is a crime in some eyes. Abortion is a rightful freedom in the eyes of others. So deciding on just where the right to be a freedom fighter is so hard to be sure right/wrong, I was just musing rather that setting up an argument.
      What bin Laden did early on was more than building roads and fighting Russians then fighting Americans. But it was a long time since my fish and chips had any print on it at all, so I would have to go back and read a book to develop credible info.
      Anyway your question about freedom fighters was food for thought, without the salt.
      
      Had another thought. Do you think that there is a pattern? Do those who support right leaning ideas have more or less support for the rightness of killing bin Laden, compared to social democratic left leaning folk?
      How about for Freedom Fighting?
      - William Joyce 21.3.1.2.1
        
        6 May 2011 at 9:47 pm
        
        Glad the F&C were good 🙂
        “considering the idea of freedom and what it means depending on where you stand.” – As I see it, freedom has nothing to do with where you stand. Where you stand, as you put it, is a matter of perspective and is all about what you see to be true.
        Freedom is about the room to move with regard that belief without facing adverse consequences.
        I think you are right in seeing a pattern. It’s like the debate over anthro. climate, etc. Which is a shame because it causes people to take up positions, not based on reason but who they identify with. That identity can be influenced by education and the schools of thought you were educated in.
        Perhaps I have not been educated in the right schools of thought that would call someone who would force a group of people to conform to his will a freedom fighter. It just seems incongruous to me.
- Puddleglum 21.4
  
  6 May 2011 at 8:12 pm
  
  Sorry William, but this just doesn’t hold together as an argument.
  
  If freedom means anything in a political sense, it is the right of a people to determine their own path without the interference of another people. If the path they ‘determine’ by their internal processes is, from the outside, a path that limits freedom of the individual that in no way bears on whether at the political level their initial fight with occupiers was for their freedom.
  
  As any classical liberal will tell you (at the individual level) freedom may not be used well, but it remains freedom.
  
  You’re confusing a notion of ‘freedom’ cast in relation to the behaviour of individuals with the usual notion of freedom that is cast at the political, social level. The latter is why we talk about “free, sovereign states” to distinguish them from ‘dependencies’, ‘colonies’, etc.. The phrase ‘freedom fighter’ is always – and certainly in this context – referring to this latter level. It’s got nothing to do with the relative freedom of individuals within a “free, sovereign state”.
  - PeteG 21.4.1
    
    6 May 2011 at 8:25 pm
    
    If freedom means anything in a political sense, it is the right of a people to determine their own path without the interference of another people.
    
    It gets complicated when a minority (or maybe a majority) of a people take control and oppress (or worse) some of the people. Nazi Germany is a prime example.
    - ianmac 21.4.1.1
      
      6 May 2011 at 9:37 pm
      
      24.4.1 Like NAct doing the poor and dispossessed?
  - Puddleglum 21.4.2
    
    6 May 2011 at 8:26 pm
    
    Another way I could make the same point is to note that places like Hong Kong (and its people), under British rule, was not free.
    
    Nevertheless, so far as I’m aware, individuals in Hong Kong’s population enjoyed relatively high levels of personal freedom. But, as a people, they were not free – they were ruled by Britain (i.e., by another people – who, themselves, may, at the individual level have been more or less free than individuals in Hong Kong). Someone who was fighting for the independence of Hong Kong from Britain would have been a ‘freedom fighter’, even if the kind of free state they wanted would reintroduce the binding of women’s feet.
    - ianmac 21.4.2.1
      
      6 May 2011 at 8:50 pm
      
      Great reads thanks Puddlegum. Do you think bin Laden could be regarded as a freedom fighter? Could his friends and family have regarded him so?
    - William Joyce 21.4.2.2
      
      6 May 2011 at 9:58 pm
      
      Ok, I get the distinction between the two levels and therefore “Someone who was fighting for the independence of Hong Kong from Britain would have been a ‘freedom fighter’”.
      But the phrase infers a nobility of cause and action. This was witnessed by the reaction of so many to what they think Hone said. So to use it to refer to a person who would fight one power to “free” a country so that it can be subject to another imposed regime is not what people would understand as a freedom fighter. If this is some specialized jargon phrase that means something different to the words it uses them obviously I have it wrong.
      - wtl 21.4.2.2.1
        
        7 May 2011 at 9:33 am
        
        FFS, all this argument about the precise meaning of ‘freedom fighter’ is utterly pointless since Harawira never actually said ‘freedom fighter’ . He was speaking Maori, not English. The argument should be about meaning of the Maori words used, not the the meaning of the words used in someone’s English translation.
        
        Colonial Viper 21.4.2.2.1.1
        
        7 May 2011 at 11:16 am
        
        True.
joe90 22

6 May 2011 at 7:13 pm

The Battle for Tora Bora

How Osama bin Laden slipped from our grasp: The definitive account.
weka 23

7 May 2011 at 11:00 am

Does anyone have a direct link to the original Harawira video? The ones in the post are now out of date and I can’t find the interview on TVNZ.
- weka 23.1
  
  7 May 2011 at 11:05 am
  
  Found the excerpt on Stuff, but would still like to see the whole interview if anyone has the direct link to the specific Te Karere episode.
  
  http://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/local-news/national-news/4964292/Harawira-honours-bin-Laden-as-freedom-fighter
weka 24

7 May 2011 at 11:30 am

Here’s a transcript from the Stuff excerpt of the Te Karare interview. I agree with what was said by an earlier commenter, that this is an English subtitle version of sentiments being expressed originally in Maori. With my limited understanding of te reo I’d say that the subtitles are a simplified version.

TK: First your thoughts on the death of Osama bin Laden.

HH: It is custom for Maori to honour and mourn the deceased, so I acknowledge him and bid him farewell. Return to your ancestors who wait for you beyond the veil of death.

TK: We have heard nothing but negative things about him from the Americans, but he fought for self-determination of his people and for his beliefs.

HH: Indeed, despite what the media has said, his family, his tribe, his people are in mourning. They mourn for the man who fought for the rights, the lands and the freedom of his people. We should not damn them in death, but acknowledge the positive aspects of life.
- PeteG 24.1
  
  7 May 2011 at 12:02 pm
  
  I’m happy to damn OBL in death. He was responsible for the deaths of many innocent people.
  - weka 24.1.1
    
    7 May 2011 at 12:20 pm
    
    You’re entitled to your own personal beliefs about what is an appropriate response to someone’s death. What’s at issue is why so many kiwis don’t want to learn about Maori beliefs about what is appropriate. And why they’re not free to express them.
    - PeteG 24.1.1.1
      
      7 May 2011 at 12:33 pm
      
      They are free to express them. And they have to accept the consequences if they want to try and attract a party vote.
      
      From what I’ve seen there are varying opinions on what is appropriate and what Maori beliefs are on it. Harawira and Walker seem a minority even amongst Maori on that (and it’s notable that Harawira saw fit to offer an apology). Not just competing MPs like Jones and Henare, but also online commentators like Joshua Hitchcock, and Morgan Godfery who said:
      
      “I have no problem with Hone’s view that Maori respect the dead. But respect falls short of homage. I am really, really disappointed that Hone has made this mistake. ”
      
      And
      
      “Angry, arrogant Harawira may be gone, but stupid Harawira is still with us.”
      - Colonial Viper 24.1.1.1.1
        
        7 May 2011 at 12:46 pm
        
        From what I’ve seen there are varying opinions on what is appropriate and what Maori beliefs are on it.
        
        That’s because Maori language and traditions can vary greatly even across different parts of the same iwi.
      - weka 24.1.1.1.2
        
        7 May 2011 at 1:45 pm
        
        “They are free to express them. ”
        
        I’m not sure they are. If Maori are consistently misquoted and misrepresented in the MSM, they’re not really free to express their beliefs and world views without negative repercussions. By negative repercussions I’m not talking about people disagreeing with them or condeming them. I’m talking about their words and views being so distorted that the people that end up judging them don’t know what they are judging. Also, if non-Maori won’t make the effort to understand Maori world views in context, then they don’t have the right to make judgements. What we’re seeing this week is just more of the same old racism that’s endemic here thanks to the MSM.
        
        “Not just competing MPs like Jones and Henare, but also online commentators like Joshua Hitchcock, and Morgan Godfery who said:”
        
        So? Are you saying that Harawira is wrong, that his statements in the above transcript don’t reflect a Maori world view just because some people disagree with him?
        
        Besides, how do you know that any of the people you’ve seen commenting have heard what Harawira actually said as opposed to what the Herald etc said he said? Two very different things.
        
        The thing that pisses me off about this situation is that Harawira should have been free to say what he wants and let his comments stand, and then the people that disagree could have had an interesting debate about the different world views at play here, why Maori see the world the way they do and have the protocols and responses they do. They’re not actually as radical as the MSM are making out. The problem is that we are still unable as a society to have a conversation that includes intelligent understanding of things Maori. That is the real shame this week.
        
        PeteG 24.1.1.1.2.1
        
        7 May 2011 at 2:15 pm
        
        If Maori are consistently misquoted and misrepresented in the MSM,
        
        It’s not just Maori that think they are misquoted and misrepresented if they are reported in the MSM, most people don’t see reports on them as they wished.
        
        Also, if non-Maori won’t make the effort to understand Maori world views in context, then they don’t have the right to make judgements.
        
        If Hone doesn’t want to make the effort to understand voter response to whatever he chooses to say then he won’t get votes. Non-Maori (and Maori) can choose what they want to understand, or not. Most of the public don’t and won’t take their time – especially those who currently don’t vote, they ones that Harawira and Sykes are hoping will give them a party vote. They have to earn votes, not expect the disillusioned to take the time to see things the Mana way.
        
        Mana is earned, not a chosen label.

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Following the 2022 Brazilian general election, election loser Jair Bolsonaro tried to do a Trump, attempting a coup to overturn the election. It failed. But unlike his American friend, he hasn't been allowed to get away with it: The former Brazilian president Jair Bolsonaro and some of his closest ...

No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant

3 hours ago
Treasury warns deeper recession worsening Budget deficit

The gift that keeps giving: David Seymour has now opened a split in the coalition over the future of National’s promise to build a new medical school. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / TheKakaKia ora. Long stories short, here’s my top things to note in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

10 hours ago
Weekly Roundup 22-November-2024

It’s another Friday and we’re inching closer to the end of the year. Here’s some of the stories that have caught our attention this week. This post, like all our work, is brought to you by a largely volunteer crew and made possible by generous donations from our readers and ...

Greater AucklandBy Greater Auckland

11 hours ago
Beyond Question?

Record Numbers: The Hīkoi mō te Tiriti, which began at the tip of the North, and the tail of the South, on 11 November, culminated outside Parliament on Tuesday, 19 November 2024, in one of the largest demonstrations in New Zealand’s political history.ACCORDING TO TE ARA, the Ministry of Culture ...

Bowalley Road

11 hours ago
The Rush To Blame “The Activists”

Activists are such easy scapegoats. The right and center have been conditioned for decades to roll their eyes at all protests. The left are easily aggravated over students leading movements they see as belonging to grownups, who have more important concerns like the economy and whether the trains come on ...

Sapphi’s SubstackBy Sapphi

11 hours ago
Cutting Through An Inundation of Dipshit Racists

Hi,Watching New Zealand from afar offers a strange perspective. It can be a good thing — distance from Aotearoa helped keep me sane while I reported on abuse at New Zealand’s biggest megachurch over the course of a year. It helps fuel my silly podcast. But it can also be ...

David FarrierBy David Farrier

12 hours ago
This is bad news

The speech yesterday by Treasury’s Chief Economic Advisor warning that the books are in worse shape than forecasted looks like it’s part of a softening-up process for either more cuts or a longer wait to get back into surplus. The speech was a highly unusual public preview of Treasury’s Half-Yearly ...

PolitikBy Richard Harman

14 hours ago
Skeptical Science New Research for Week #47 2024

Open access notables Projected increase in the frequency of extremely active Atlantic hurricane seasons, Lopez et al., Science Advances: Future changes to the year-to-year swings between active and inactive North Atlantic tropical cyclone (TC) seasons have received little attention, yet may have great societal implications in areas prone to hurricane ...

Skeptical Science

23 hours ago
Chicken Kiev

Chatting in the supermarket this morning, I found I needed to lunge for the chicken drumsticks.Coping mechanisms: who hasn’t felt a greater need for them lately?When it all gets too much, I turn to demonstrating handy butchery hacks.It wasn’t that she’d said anything wrong, our friend, not at all. We ...

More Than A FeildingBy David Slack

1 day ago
The year is 2024 and it’s 1984

This is written in response to the highly significant open letter from a group of economists that was today addressed to Christopher Luxon. The year is 2024, and it’s 1984. The country is reeling from a record Olympic medal gold haul, while the globe grapples with the choice of the ...

Sapphi’s SubstackBy Sapphi

1 day ago
The IPCA has failed

Back in 2022, RNZ took an in-depth look at the "Independent" Police Conduct Authority and its handling of killings by police. These are the most serious test of oversight, and you would expect the police's use of lethal force to receive the most severe scrutiny. But despite the police regularly ...

No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant

1 day ago
Thursday 21 November 2024

The Hīkoi mō Te Tiriti arrived at Parliament on Tuesday – the size is being debated but estimates range from 42,000 to 100,000. The Prime Minister is defending not attending due to some of the organisers being affiliated with Te Pāti Māori. The national gang patch ban came into force ...

NZCTUBy Jeremiah Boniface

1 day ago
‘These budget cuts are counter-productive and make no sense’

I spoke to former Productivity Chair Nana this morning about the letter he and a group of other economists sent to PM Christopher Luxon to urge the Government to urgently suspend cuts to spending and investment for the sake of the economy, struggling businesses and the wellbeing of vulnerable ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

1 day ago
ACT’s Astroturfing & A Co-ordinated Attack on Te Pati Māori

Unity on the Streets / Unity at the TableAfter the Hīkoi, all three right wing Coalition leaders came together to push the idea that the 42,000 - 50,000 + strong Hikoi was somehow less potent and brave, and more illegitimate than the energy and crowd displayed.Prime Minister Christopher Luxon 20-November: ...

Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tui

1 day ago
Durability of carbon dioxide removal is critical for stabilizing temperatures

This is a re-post from the Climate Brink The world is emitting over 40 gigatons of CO2 per year, contributing to an accelerating warming of the planet. The world needs to cut emissions rapidly to be remotely on track to meet our Paris Agreement goals of limiting warming to well-below 2C, and we ...

Skeptical Science

1 day ago
I Love My Leather Jacket

I wear my leather jacket like a great big hugRadiating charm - a living cloak of luckIt's the only concrete link with an absent friendIt's a symbol I can wear 'till we meet againOr it's a weight around my neck while the owner's freeBoth protector and reminder of mortalityIt's a ...

Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel

1 day ago
Throwback Thursday: Will “Auckland Transport” Survive?

With Auckland Transport’s future up in the air under Mayor Wayne Brown’s proposed CCO reform, we’ve dug way back into the archives, to unearth this post originally published in March 2010. As you’ll see, many of the debates that were being had when AT was first proposed continue to ...

Greater AucklandBy Greater Auckland

1 day ago
Economists call on PM to suspend budget cuts for the sake of the economy

Nicola Willis’ budget cuts are under fire from economists for having no clear rationale and worsening the recession. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāKia ora. Long stories short, here’s my top things to note in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and poverty on Thursday, November 21: The news at ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

1 day ago
The end of policing by consent

National has appointed a new police commissioner. And he explicitly rejects policing by consent: Asked if he subscribed to policing by consent, he said he did not. “I don’t talk about policing by consent. I talk about trust and confidence, and it is fundamentally important that the police have ...

No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant

2 days ago
The Treaty Principles Bill: A Who’s Who

David Horatio Waterbed SeymourFringe politician and dweeb transformed successfully by ThinkTank money into a well-oiled soundbite robot.Currently programmed to say: Equal rights for all New Zealanders Equal rights for all New Zealanders Equal rights for all New Zealanders Was previously programmed to say:I am a proud libertarian andI am a ...

More Than A FeildingBy David Slack

2 days ago
Kinleith mill closure shows need for industrial strategy

NZCTU Te Kauae Kaimahi President Richard Wagstaff is calling on the Government to deliver an economic and industrial strategy for regional manufacturing, rather than just expressing sympathy for job losses, following the announced closure of Kinleith mill in Tokoroa. “The closure Kinleith mill in Tokoroa is not just devastating for ...

NZCTUBy Jeremiah Boniface

2 days ago
27% of kids going hungry, up from 21% in a year

One in four Kiwi children live in households where food runs out often or sometimes. Photo: Getty ImagesKia ora. Long stories short, here’s my top things to note in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and poverty on Wednesday, November 20: The lead: The official annual Health Survey found sharp ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

2 days ago
Transport modelling is an illusion

This guest post by Tim Adriaansen, an advocate for accessibility and sustainable transport, originally published on LinkedIn and cross posted here with permission. People prefer cars, right? Probably not. Here’s why. Granted, most people in English-speaking countries use a car to get around. This simple reality underpins our transport ...

Greater AucklandBy Guest Post

2 days ago
Young Maori take over

Neither Wellington nor Parliament has ever seen anything like it before. The Police said there were more than 40,000 but however many there were, yesterday’s Hikoi to Parliament was a monumental event. It was almost three times the Foreshore and Seabed martch of 2004 and many,many times bigger than ...

PolitikBy Richard Harman

3 days ago
Gordon Campbell On The Hikoi Aftermath

The euphoria from yesterday’s hikoi may be transitory, but is no less valuable for that. It is pretty rare for the left to feel itself to be in the overwhelming majority, and speaking as the voice of the people. Lest that momentum be lost, the organisers will no doubt be ...

WerewolfBy ScoopEditor

3 days ago
Sabin 33 #3 – Solar panels generate too much waste and will overwhelm landfills

On November 1, 2024 we announced the publication of 33 rebuttals based on the report "Rebutting 33 False Claims About Solar, Wind, and Electric Vehicles" written by Matthew Eisenson, Jacob Elkin, Andy Fitch, Matthew Ard, Kaya Sittinger & Samuel Lavine and published by the Sabin Center for Climate Change Law at Columbia ...

Skeptical Science

3 days ago
What’s the time Mr Seymour?

Mr David Seymour crawling up to the ceilingThe sun don't shine the sun don't shine the sun don't shine at allMamma Pappa say you should go to school, I don't know what forNow that I've grown up and seen the world and all its liesSong: Southside of Bombay"Ake, ake, ake" ...

Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel

3 days ago
Submit to defend te Tiriti!

The Justice Committee has called for submissions on National's racist and constitutionally radical Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi Bill. Submissions can be made at the link above or by post, and are due by Tuesday, 7 January 2025. But I'd get in quick, in case National grows a spine ...

No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant

3 days ago
We need to talk about Kevin

All happy families are alike; each unhappy family has a Drunk Uncle Kevin in there somewhere. If your Kevin is anything like the ones I know, he was getting along happily enough without having to think too much about the Treaty Principles Bill apart from bloody good job, onya guys ...

More Than A FeildingBy David Slack

3 days ago
The hikoi

Like everyone else (everyone who wasn't there, anyway), I've spent the morning watching the hikoi march on Parliament. The pictures are astounding: parliament grounds and the surrounding streets are full, and there are still people backed up along Lambton Quay. The police are estimating 35,000 people, and that's a floor ...

No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant

3 days ago
Why Govt & NZ Inc should boycott & regulate Facebook

The CEOs of Westpac NZ and Kiwibank say Facebook is rife with fraud but reporting scam ads gets no response. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāKia ora. Long stories short, here’s my top things to note in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and poverty on Tuesday, November 19: The ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

3 days ago
How should we talk about change?

A better world isn’t just possible, it’s desirable. And that’s how we should frame a lot of our conversations around making a greater Auckland. As an example take urban climate action. A climate friendly Auckland: Is free from congestion Enables people to travel how they choose Is filled with ...

Greater AucklandBy Connor Sharp

3 days ago
AMA + Holiday Webworm Merch!

Hi,It’s AMA time again — so anything that’s on your mind that you wanna ask, ask away in the comments. This is one of my favourite things to do with full Webworm members, who are the heart of this community of Worms. Journalism? Documentary making? Short Poppies? Cats? Podcasting? What ...

David FarrierBy David Farrier

3 days ago
Discount Code for Webworm Merch!

Hi,So there’s a bunch of new stuff on the Webworm store (www.webworm.store) — just in time for the Holidays. Read more ...

David FarrierBy David Farrier

3 days ago
Trying to defuse the tension

There were urgent moves yesterday at Parliament to try and defuse the tension building up over ACT’s Treaty Principles Bill. The Bill’s author, ACT leader David Seymour, told reporters that he understood the Justice Select Committee met yesterday to discuss how long it should take to consider submissions on the ...

PolitikBy Richard Harman

4 days ago
An Irritable NZ Pawn – David Seymour Admits Treaty Principles Bill will clear the way for deve...

This morning I discovered a post I’d written 10-11 months ago, lamenting how New Zealand’s ACT Party and their foreign and local surrogates would play out anti-Māori propaganda - which I believe they have long prepared for.At the time, it was a plea for action and readiness from my fellow ...

Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tui

4 days ago
Gordon Campbell On The Hikoi Arrival, And Tyler Childers

Politicians like to bang on all about the need to heal society’s racial/economic divisions, but in their actions they’re more keen on stoking those divisions, with the Treaty Principles Bill being the classic example. The Bill seeks to dilute the Crown’s responsibilities to Māori at the same time as it ...

WerewolfBy ScoopEditor

4 days ago
Socially Backwards and Fiscally Forwards: the False Ideological Divide and the “Conservative” Li...

Nearly two weeks on from the US election, and we are still mentally wrangling with the results. How did this happen? Which voter demographics went where? What did the Democrats do wrong? Meanwhile here in New Zealand, we’re left wondering how this will apply to us and what this means ...

Sapphi’s SubstackBy Sapphi

4 days ago
Kaamos: Accepted

I appreciate that A Phuulish Fellow has been fairly quiet recently. That’s a combination of two things – comparatively little in the way of relevant material to discuss (at least until The War of the Rohirrim comes out next month), and my general work on The Secret Non-Fiction Writing Project. ...

A Phuulish FellowBy strda221

4 days ago
Here’s how governments could fix their Paris climate commitment failures

This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections Governments around the world face a conundrum. Virtually none are on track to meet their Paris climate commitments. That includes the United States, which committed to cut its emissions at least 50% below 2005 levels by 2030 but is only on track for 32-43% cuts ...

Skeptical Science

4 days ago
Unstoppable.

Too Big To Fail: Forty-three years after the 1981 Springbok Tour protests, Maori defenders of te Tiriti, by their own efforts, and using their own resources, are poised to descend on the capital with upwards of 100,000 followers at their back, and no force in front of them even remotely ...

Bowalley Road

4 days ago
Katherine Trebeck – An Alternative Economic Narrative

The era of neoliberalism has been destructive on so many levels, with a huge growth in wealth and privilege for the one percent. A hollowing out of the state; fraying of the safety net; inadequate government investment in infrastructure; and continued environmental degradation has resulted in damage on a vast ...

Fabians

4 days ago
In a Manner of Speaking

In a manner of speakingI just want to sayThat I could never forget the wayYou told me everythingBy saying nothingOh, give me the wordsGive me the wordsThat tell me nothingOh, give me the wordsGive me the wordsThat tell me everythingSongwriter: Winston TongNext Tuesday, the subscription price for Nick’s Kōrero will ...

Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel

4 days ago
Monday 18 November 2024

The NZNO have announced a nationwide strike for December over its pay dispute with Health NZ, who have put a 1 per cent cap on pay rises. The Hīkoi mō Te Tiriti and Treaty Principles Bill remain front and centre in the media, with the impacts of the Hana-Rawhiti Maipi-Clarke-led ...

NZCTUBy Jeremiah Boniface

4 days ago
Shipley warns Seymour’s bill is ‘inviting civil war’

The divisive Treaty Principles Bill is not just a risk for the National Party, it’s a risk to civil order and unity, warns a National Party grandee. Photo: Getty ImagesKia ora. Long stories short, here’s my top things to note in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and poverty on ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

4 days ago
A clearer network for the City Rail Link?

This post was originally published on Linked In by Nicolas Reid. It is republished here with permission. Auckland is now just a year or so away from having the keystone of its urban rail network complete. As I wrote about here, the City Rail Link will be a literal game changer for ...

Greater AucklandBy Guest Post

4 days ago
National’s support base is wobbling

If ACT leader David Seymour intended the Treaty Principles Bill to drive a wedge into National’s support base, he may well already be succeeding. By midnight on Thursday after the Maori Party haka in Parliament, National MPs were being deluged with emails and messages from their members calling them out ...

PolitikBy Richard Harman

5 days ago
2024 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #46

A listing of 33 news and opinion articles we found interesting and shared on social media during the past week: Sun, November 10, 2024 thru Sat, November 16, 2024. Story of the week Our Story of the Week is completely "meta" (no, not that Meta). It's about our exploring how ...

Skeptical Science

5 days ago
Grifter Eftpos Tamaki at it again

..Thanks for reading Frankly Speaking ! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.Self-appointed “Bishop” and proto-fascist, Brian Tamaki was at it again on 16 November, blocking Auckland’s southern motorway, SH1.This time, the target of his ire wasn’t the Civil Unions Act; covid lock-downs; mask mandates; or ...

Frankly SpeakingBy Frank Macskasy

5 days ago
Rip up a bill, lead a haka are words to live by

I cannot stop grabbing people by the lapels, or shoulders, or similar, and raving at them about the tiny miracles in my ears.I can hear again! There could not be a more satisfied customer in all the world.In a noisy cafe I am even catching words that Karren cannot, she ...

More Than A FeildingBy David Slack

6 days ago
Unintended Consequences

Take the baitYou pay the priceIt's much too lateFor good adviceYou know and I know that our good things' throughBecause there's consequences for what we doConsequences for me and youWriters: Kevin Robert Hayes, David Nagier, Bonnie Adele Hayes.Fallout from the first readingOne News began last night by saying that tens ...

Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel

6 days ago
Thank you, driver!

Today, Saturday 16th of November, is Auckland Transport’s Bus Driver Appreciation Day! Saturday 16 November marks the third annual Auckland Transport (AT) ‘Bus Driver Appreciation Day’, and this year we are encouraging all of New Zealand to thank their driver or let the bus go first if you are in ...

Greater AucklandBy Greater Auckland

6 days ago
Totally Normal: Holiday Edition

Hi,If I was to accurately sum up my mental state over the week, I’d just say that I got a huge fright from my own shadow.I’d nipped out for an 11pm neighborhood stroll, just to calm down after a day of stress and screens. The Cure and Fazerdaze’s new record ...

David FarrierBy David Farrier

6 days ago
We Are Not Listening

The current rise of populism challenges the way we think about people’s relationship to the economy.We seem to be entering an era of populism, in which leadership in a democracy is based on preferences of the population which do not seem entirely rational nor serving their longer interests. ...

PunditBy Brian Easton

1 week ago
More lawlessness from National

On Tuesday, sick of government stonewalling, the Waitangi Tribunal issued a rare court order, ordering the Minister of Health to release unredacted documents within 48 hours showing its reasoning for disestablishing Te Aka Whai Ora, the Māori Health Authority. The government's response to the lawful order of a court? Yeah, ...

No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant

1 week ago
National’s tyrannical “foreign interference” law

Yesterday, under cover the the biggest political fight of the year, National quietly - covertly, even - introduced anti-foreign interference legislation. The bill is the product of a years-long work-program aimed at countering shit like this and this, and there's unquestionably a need to do something to counter foreign states' ...

No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant

1 week ago
The Haka Represents The Best Of Us

A few months ago, I was in an audience watching a Haka-Kapa and as I watched children dance and sing and sway and shout and beat, I couldn’t help but think “The Haka represents the best of us.”Yes, yes - there will be a thousand voices that rush forth to ...

Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tui

1 week ago
Adding up the climate cost

St Mary’s Bay housing left hanging: Climate risk is systemically underestimated in the climate scenarios used by central banks, and a new report warns 10,000 houses are set to become uninsurable in Aotearoa. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāLong stories short, here’s the top six news items of note in ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

1 week ago
Auckland chafing at Bishop’s housing intensification orders

One of the major problems the Government has in implementing its ‘going for housing growth’ strategy is that it isn’t giving much funding help to councils. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāKia ora. Long stories short, here’s my top things to note in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

1 week ago
Friday 15 November 2024

The Treaty Principles Bill continues to dominate political news, with it passing its first reading in the House. Parliament was briefly suspended and Te Pāti Māori MP Hana-Rawhiti Maipi-Clarke suspended for 24 hours after leading a haka that was joined by opposition MPs and the public in the gallery. Willie ...

NZCTUBy Jeremiah Boniface

1 week ago
Weekly Roundup 15-November-2024

Happy Friday, welcome to another round-up of interesting stories about what’s happening in Auckland and other cities. Feel free to add your links in the comments! This post, like all our work, is brought to you by a largely volunteer crew and made possible by generous donations from our readers ...

Greater AucklandBy Greater Auckland

1 week ago
Are We The Waiting?

And screamingAre we we are, are we we are the waitingAnd screamingAre we we are, are we we are the waitingForget me nots, second thoughts live in isolationHeads or tails and fairy tales in my mindAre we we are, are we we are the waiting unknownThe rage and love, the ...

Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel

1 week ago
The Hoon around the week to November 15

The podcast above of the weekly ‘Hoon’ webinar for paying subscribers on Thursday night features co-hosts & talking about the week’s news with:The Kākā’s climate correspondent on the latest climate news, including from COP29 this week; on the US Presidential elections, Israel vs Gaza/Iran/Lebanon, Ukraine/Nato vs Russia/North ...

The KakaBy Bernard Hickey

1 week ago
First Tea and Toast, now Milo — why do NZ’s best beverages need so much defending?

Only two months ago, Nicola Willis had to step in to stop Health New Zealand cutting tea and toast for post-birth parents, and now Lester Levy is riding to the rescue with a welcome message for all: our health workers can once again drink Milo, and will no longer need ...

Sapphi’s SubstackBy Sapphi

1 week ago
Gordon Campbell on the folly of making apologies in a social vacuum.

Day One of the Treaty Principles Bill…and everyone got what they wanted, and did what they liked. Heated words were exchanged. Culturally appropriate acts of outrage were performed. David Seymour got to play the victim card. Willie Jackson got kicked out of class. A comically red-faced Mr Speaker bellowed “Order, ...

WerewolfBy ScoopEditor

1 week ago
Skeptical Science New Research for Week #46 2024

Open access notables Microbial solutions must be deployed against climate catastrophe, Peixoto et al., Nature Communications [comment]: The climate crisis is escalating. A multitude of microbe-based solutions have been proposed, and these technologies hold great promise and could be deployed along with other climate mitigation strategies. However, these solutions have ...

Skeptical Science

1 week ago
The PM gets some extremely valuable legal advice for free

You can pay a great deal of money for the services of a KC. So just what would some peerless legal writing from 40 or so of them be worth, do you reckon?Priceless, that’s what. It’s not even the half of it, but this is my favourite part of the ...

More Than A FeildingBy David Slack

1 week ago
D-day for the government

The government's Treaty Principles Bill is up for its first reading today - bought forward in a rush in a desperate effort to avoid the hikoi which is currently marching on Wellington. But the Prime Minister won’t be there for it – he’s literally running away to Peru! But he ...

No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant

1 week ago
97% of submissions did not want no-cause evictions, Trump chooses a Russian spy for US Intelligence ...

Good morning, and I’m sorry I’ve been away for a couple of days.I’ve been focusing on the Hikoi, and also testing out sentiment on the Treaty Principles Bill. It’s complicated, and the Treaty Principles Bill will be debated in the House today. The Government’s own lawyers have told them the ...

Mountain TuiBy Mountain Tui

1 week ago
Government must vote down ACT Members Bill that would undermine workers’ rights

NZCTU Te Kauae Kaimahi President Richard Wagstaff is calling on the Government to vote down an ACT Party Members Bill that would undermine workers’ rights by making it easier for employers to fire workers. Last week ACT MP Laura Trask’s Employment Relations (Termination of Employment by Agreement) Amendment Bill was ...

NZCTUBy Jeremiah Boniface

1 week ago
Seymour causes thousands of unjustified absences by forcing kids to fight for their rights instead o...

The State would like to remind you that they are in control. They manage your employment prospects, and can destroy the job market you and yours rely on by mass-cancelling construction projects, cutting funding, and firing a good chunk of our public servants. They wield the mechanisms that provide scrutiny ...

Sapphi’s SubstackBy Sapphi

1 week ago
The Weight of the World

As the weight of the world Hangs on your shoulders The weight of the world Starts to take over again And over again All that you once loved, now you hate So slowly relearn how to meditate To have and to hold And never let go Can you feel it ...

Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel

1 week ago
Thursday 14 November 2024

The Treaty Principles Bill is set to have its First Reading in the House today, as the Hīkoi mō Te Tiriti continues. More than 40 KCs have written to the Prime Minister and Attorney-General outlining their “grave concerns” about the substance of the Treaty Principles Bill, while an academic and ...

NZCTUBy Jeremiah Boniface

1 week ago

Release: Government should be transparent on live exports

Targeted consultation on reinstating live cattle exports by sea won’t allow the New Zealand public to have their say. ...

Labour Blog

10 hours ago
NZ’s global climate rankings plummet as Govt removes agriculture from ETS

The Government has passed legislation to remove agriculture from the Emissions Trading Scheme (ETS) while Aotearoa’s reputation on climate action plummets. ...

Greens

1 day ago
Failed boot camp experiment must end

As legislation to set up boot camps passed its first reading, the Green Party urged the Government to abandon this failed policy experiment for the good of our rangatahi. ...

Greens

1 day ago
Gender-affirming care must centre evidence and health needs, not political posturing

The Ministry of Health has today released an evidence brief regarding the use of puberty blockers in gender-affirming healthcare, amid moves by the government to limit access. ...

Greens

1 day ago
Release: National doesn’t care about manufacturing

The National Government is walking away from our manufacturing sector with constant reports of closures and job losses. ...

Labour Blog

1 day ago
Release: David Parker speech – Piketty, Inequality and Climate Change

David Parker's speech from the University of Auckland's forum on Piketty, Inequality and Climate Change in September 2024. ...

Labour Blog

1 day ago
Release: Youth mental wellbeing no longer a priority for Child Poverty Minister

Louise Upston has revealed her diminished vision for vulnerable youth against a backdrop of snubbed advice, scrapped priorities, shifted goal posts and thousands more children projected to fall into poverty. ...

Labour Blog

1 day ago
Release: National’s lack of climate action taking NZ backwards

National Government’s backward-looking climate policy has seen New Zealand fall seven places on the Climate Change Performance Index to 41 out of 63 countries measured. ...

Labour Blog

1 day ago
Release: Simple reason for drop in emergency housing

When the Government says it has reduced the number of people in emergency housing, what it means is it is stopping people from accessing it in the first place. ...

Labour Blog

1 day ago
Govt’s child wellbeing strategy ‘shallow and shameful’

The Government is turning its back on children by not only weakening child poverty reduction targets, but also removing child mental wellbeing as a priority focus in their Child and Youth Wellbeing Strategy. ...

Greens

1 day ago
Release: A historic win for Samoan communities

Labour warmly welcomes the Restoring Samoan Citizenship Bill as it passes its third reading, before becoming law. ...

Labour Blog

1 day ago
Government plan to reinstate live animal exports a “national disgrace”

The Government has taken a giant step backwards by reinstating live animal exports. ...

Greens

2 days ago
Pasifika justice as Member’s Bill passes final reading

Teanau Tuiono’s Member’s Bill, the Citizenship (Western Samoa Restoration) Amendment Bill, has passed its third reading and will become law. ...

Greens

2 days ago
Release: Minister of Education thinks New Zealand ends at the Bombay Hills

The Minister of Education has shown complete disregard for rural communities and their school bus routes in Question Time today. ...

Labour Blog

2 days ago
Economists sound alarm on Government’s slash-and-burn approach

A group of prominent economists has released an open letter to the Government, raising grave concerns about the far-reaching consequences of its fiscal policy. ...

Greens

2 days ago
Release: Smoking numbers up under Costello’s watch

National’s repeal of Labour’s smokefree legislation has taken New Zealand further away from achieving a Smokefree 2025 and a smokefree generation. ...

Labour Blog

2 days ago
Release: Call for Palestine recognition by NZ, Australian and Canadian MPs

Parliamentarians from Australia, Canada and New Zealand have written an open letter to their respective Prime Ministers calling on them to recognise Palestine. ...

Labour Blog

2 days ago
Justice Select Committee opens floor for Treaty Principles submissions

Today, the Justice Select Committee has decided to officially open submissions for the controversial Treaty Principles Bill. ...

Greens

3 days ago
Power of the people on full display as hīkoi approaches Parliament

Today, Hīkoi mō te Tiriti arrived in Wellington, with thousands gathering to march in unity against the divisive Treaty Principles Bill. ...

Greens

3 days ago
Hypocrisy as Te Whatu Ora contractor bill balloons

Te Whatu Ora’s bill for contracting and consulting staff has ballooned by nearly 20 percent under the National Government, breaking a promise they made during the election campaign to cut contractors. ...

Labour Blog

4 days ago
Release: Growing pressure to scrap Section 7AA Repeal Bill

The newly released Section 7AA Repeal Bill's select committee report is further evidence that the Government should scrap it. ...

Labour Blog

5 days ago
Government’s move to monetise access to nature a slippery slope

The Green Party is voicing serious concerns over the Government’s proposal to charge for access to public conservation land, released today. ...

Greens

1 week ago
Green Party condemns the passage of Treaty Principles Bill

The Green Party condemns the passing of the Treaty Principles Bill at first reading, and is clear that the fight is not over. ...

Greens

1 week ago
Stand Up for Te Tiriti

Te Tiriti o Waitangi is our country’s founding document. It forms the basis of the relationship between Māori and the Crown – and the Aotearoa New Zealand we live in today. ...

Labour Blog

1 week ago
Release: Over 15,000 sign Labour’s open letter to Luxon

As the hīkoi to Parliament continues, Labour has sent an open letter to Prime Minister Christopher Luxon in a last-ditch attempt to get him to kill the Treaty Principles Bill. ...

Labour Blog

1 week ago
Fast Track Bill threatens environment, climate and reputation

The fast-track legislation passing its second reading in Parliament is another step towards environmental ruin. ...

Greens

1 week ago
Greens join King’s Counsel in calling for Treaty Principles Bill to be abandoned

The Prime Minister must answer the call from a group of senior lawyers of the King’s Counsel to abandon the divisive Treaty Principles Bill. ...

Greens

1 week ago
Chris Hipkins’ apology statement to state and faith-based care survivors

...

Labour Blog

1 week ago
Release: Labour formally apologises to state and faith-based care survivors

Labour joins with the Government in unreservedly apologising for the abuse, neglect and trauma including torture in state and faith-based care and for ignoring the voices of survivors for too long. ...

Labour Blog

1 week ago
Green Party stands in support of survivors of abuse in care

Today, the Green Party stands alongside the survivors of abuse in state care and faith-based care as the Government issues an historic apology. ...

Greens

1 week ago
Green Party calls for conscience vote on Treaty Principles Bill

The Green Party has written to the Speaker of the House requesting he enable a personal vote on the Treaty Principles Bill. ...

Greens

2 weeks ago
Govt move to exclude journalist risks chilling effect

The Green Party is alarmed by the Government’s move to exclude a journalist from covering this week’s apology for the survivors of abuse in state and faith-based care. ...

Greens

2 weeks ago
Without action, an apology will be empty air

For tomorrow’s apology to survivors of abuse in state and faith-based care to hold any water, the Government must not pursue the same policies that drove the abuse in the first place. ...

Greens

2 weeks ago
Release: Concerns remain over tobacco interference

Concerns about the tobacco industry’s ability to interfere in government policy making remain, despite the inability of the Office of the Auditor-General to investigate the Government’s decision to halve the excise tax on heated tobacco products. ...

Labour Blog

2 weeks ago
Urgent wake-up call on climate

The Climate Change Commission’s latest advice indicates Aotearoa needs to be stepping up on climate action. ...

Greens

2 weeks ago
Green MP’s Meme-ber’s Bill set to save the world

Break out the punchlines and dust off your meme folder: Green Party MP Kahurangi Carter’s Copyright (Parody and Satire) Amendment Bill was pulled from the Ballot yesterday. ...

Greens

2 weeks ago
Release: Poroporoaki: Ta Robert (Bom) Gillies

Kua hinga te manawa kairākau o Te Rua Tekau Ma Waru Tiwhatiwha te po! Kakarauru i te po! Ka rapuhia kei hea koe kua riro! Haere e te Ika a Whiro ki o tini hoa kua ngaro atu ki te Pō ...

Labour Blog

2 weeks ago
Labour, Greens and Te Pāti Māori call on the Prime Minister to block the Treaty Principles Bill

The opposition parties stand united for an Aotearoa that honours Te Tiriti, rather than seeking to rewrite it. Labour, the Greens and Te Pāti Māori are working together against the Government’s divisive Treaty Principles Bill. ...

Greens

2 weeks ago
Release: Labour, Greens and Te Pāti Māori call on the Prime Minister to block the Treaty Principle...

The opposition parties stand united for an Aotearoa that honours Te Tiriti, rather than seeking to rewrite it. Labour, the Greens and Te Pāti Māori are working together against the Government’s divisive Treaty Principles Bill. ...

Labour Blog

2 weeks ago
NZ must pursue independent foreign policy

The Green Party says the need is greater than ever for Aotearoa New Zealand to pursue an independent foreign policy. ...

Greens

2 weeks ago

Child Protection Investigation Unit established

A new Child Protection Investigation Unit is being established to ensure the safety and wellbeing of children in care, Minister for Children Karen Chhour says. “The report released by the Royal Commission into abuse in state care shows us all the risk of not acting immediately when there are serious ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 hours ago
Speech at United States Business Summit 2024

Ka nui te mihi kia koutou. Ka mihi ki te mana whenua ko Ngāti Whātua Ōrākei. Kia ora and good morning everyone. Thank you Fran and Simon for inviting me here today, and importantly your leadership of this forum over several years now. I want to acknowledge David Gehrenbeck, Deputy ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

5 hours ago
Record number of submissions received on granny flat proposal

Nearly 2,000 submissions have been received on the Government’s proposals aimed at making it easier to build a granny flat of up to 60 square metres without a resource or building consent, RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop and Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk say. “This is the highest number ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

7 hours ago
District Court Judge appointed

Attorney-General Judith Collins today announced the appointment of Rebecca Guthrie as a District Court Judge. Judge Guthrie was admitted to the bar in 1997 following her graduation from the University of Canterbury in 1996 (LLB, BA). She commenced her legal career in Hastings in 1997 before moving to London in ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

7 hours ago
Appointments strengthen Predator Free 2050

The latest Predator Free 2050 Board appointments will help to strengthen biodiversity efforts across Aotearoa New Zealand, Conservation Minister Tama Potaka says. Mr Potaka today announced two appointments to the Board of Directors of Predator Free 2050 Limited, a key player in the wider Predator Free 2050 Programme. “The Predator ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

9 hours ago
New facility in Christchurch will improve the lives of young New Zealanders

Mental Health Minister Matt Doocey today opened Kahurangi, an innovative and much-needed facility for Canterbury’s Child, Adolescent, and Family Mental Health Services. “The new state of the art outpatient facility opened today will be a gamechanger for the way mental health is delivered for young people in Canterbury,” says Mr ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

9 hours ago
Driver safety screens to be installed on Auckland buses

Transport Minister Simeon Brown has welcomed news from the NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) that bus driver protection screens will be installed across Auckland’s bus fleet by 2026.“The Government is committed to improving the safety of working environments for bus drivers, and Budget 2024 allocated $15 million of Crown funding over ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

9 hours ago
Government action provides Southland farmers more time to meet plan requirements

The Government is taking action to ensure Southland farmers and growers are not affected by unreasonable regional farm plan deadlines, Agriculture Minister Todd McClay, Environment Minister Penny Simmonds and Associate Environment Minister Andrew Hoggard say.“Cabinet has agreed to provide more time for farmers and growers to comply with regional rules ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

1 day ago
Bill reaffirms Government’s commitment to crack down on serious youth offending

The Oranga Tamariki (Responding to Serious Youth Offending) Bill had its first reading at Parliament today. The Bill reaffirms the Government’s commitment to crack down on serious youth offending, Minister for Children Karen Chhour says. “In recent years we have seen an unacceptable spike in youth offending. “This Bill makes ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

1 day ago
Critical milestones for earthquake buildings review

Fairer, more sensible rules about managing earthquake risks are a step closer with the passing of legislation and the appointment of an independent chair to provide expert advice, Minister for Building and Construction Chris Penk says. “The Government is committed to reinvigorating our cities and regions to support economic growth, ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

1 day ago
State of the art radiology machine for Auckland

People in Northland and Auckland will benefit from a new machine for cancer treatment installed at the Regional Cancer and Blood Service at Auckland City Hospital. The MV5 linear accelerator, or LINAC machine, officially opened today targets cancer tumours with pinpoint accuracy. Health Minister Dr Shane Reti says this new, ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

1 day ago
Foreign Minister to visit Europe

Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Minister Winston Peters will travel to Europe for high-level talks with France, Germany and the United Kingdom next week. "Since taking office almost a year ago, the Coalition Government has emphasised the importance we place on New Zealand's traditional and likeminded diplomatic and ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

1 day ago
First arrests made under gang patch ban

Police have made their first arrests under the new gang patch legislation, with two gang members arrested, says Police Minister Mark Mitchell. “Just before 11 this morning, Police in Wairoa apprehended a gang member for wearing a patch to the supermarket. He has been arrested and will now face enforcement ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

1 day ago
Better support for victims of sexual violence

The Government is proposing two major changes to name suppression laws that will put the views of victims of sexual violence first, Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith says. “We are committed to restoring law and order and these two proposed changes will help ensure the victims of crime are put at ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

1 day ago
Government moving forward with Regional Deals

Cabinet has agreed to invite all regions to submit proposals for Regional Deals between central and local government that drive economic growth and deliver the infrastructure our country needs, Local Government Minister Simeon Brown and Infrastructure Minister Chris Bishop say. Inviting all regions to propose a Regional Deal that boosts ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

1 day ago
MSA pilot participant update

One of the ten young men selected to participate in the Military-Style Academy Pilot has allegedly reoffended. Children’s Minister Karen Chhour is disappointed but says it would be naïve to think that none of these young men would reoffend. “I’m saddened that this young person has not taken this opportunity ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

1 day ago
Fighting for Kiwis in Trade

Delivered at Auckland Trade and Economic Policy School Good morning and thank you Deputy Vice Chancellor Lithander for your warm welcome and for inviting me to open Auckland Trade and Economic Policy School today. A Special thanks to the University of Auckland, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade and ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

1 day ago
Attendance rates increase, again

Associate Education Minister David Seymour says that school attendance is continuing to rise. In Term 3 of 2024 51.3 per cent of students attended school regularly, an increase of 5.3 percentage points from 46 per cent in Term 3 of 2023. “This Government has prioritised student attendance and it is ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

1 day ago
Improving the lives of young New Zealanders

Ensuring New Zealand is the best place in the world for children and young people is the vision at the heart of the Government’s new Child and Youth Strategy, Child Poverty Reduction Minister Louise Upston says. “Childhood represents a huge opportunity to set people on a positive path towards living ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

1 day ago
Government continues work to reinstate livestock exports by sea

The Government is reinstating the trade of livestock exports by sea while ensuring the highest standards of animal welfare, says Associate Minister of Agriculture Andrew Hoggard.“The Government will introduce legislation changes to reinstate the trade, enhance oversight, and strengthen requirements for exporters to identify risks and manage the welfare of ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

2 days ago
Speech to the National Quality Forum 2024

Tēnā koutou katoa – it is a pleasure to be here today. I would like to begin by acknowledging the important leadership role you all play in ensuring a quality health system New Zealanders can trust. There is enormous clinical expertise in this room covering a wide range of disciplines. ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

2 days ago
New Zealand’s COP29 National Statement

Tēnā koutou katoa. Mr President, Excellencies, Delegates. New Zealand, and all nations represented here today, are already dealing with the impacts of climate change. Our households, businesses, and economies are bearing the costs of its effects. The choices we make now will shape the severity of these impacts for generations ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

2 days ago
Latest Quarterly Investment Report released

The Government has released its second Quarterly Investment Report (QIR) which shows substantial work still to be done by agencies to improve investment reporting and meet the Government’s expectations, Infrastructure and Acting Finance Minister Chris Bishop says. “New Zealand has significant infrastructure and investment needs. The Government is determined to get ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

2 days ago
New Zealand supporting loss and damage fund

Climate Change Minister Simon Watts announced New Zealand will contribute NZ$10 million to the new Fund for Responding to Loss and Damage while at the annual United Nations Climate Change Conference (COP29) in Baku, Azerbaijan. “New Zealand is joining the global effort to address the significant challenge of responding to ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

2 days ago
Gang crackdown begins at stroke of midnight

The free ride for gangs is over when the clock strikes midnight tonight, with tough new laws officially coming into effect, Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith and Police Minister Mark Mitchell say. “Gang patches will no longer be able to be worn in public. To earn the right to wear a ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

2 days ago
LGFA increases borrowing capacity to support high growth councils

The Government is welcoming the decision by the Local Government Funding Agency to increase access to financing tools for fast growing councils to support greater investment in critical infrastructure, Local Government Minister Simeon Brown says.“Communities across the country are facing an infrastructure deficit and significant population growth is projected in ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

3 days ago
Temporary Traffic Management costs revealed

The Government has revealed that over the past three years, the New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA) has spent an eyewatering $786 million of taxpayers’ money on road cones and temporary traffic management (TTM), Transport Minister Simeon Brown says.“When I became Minister, I was surprised to learn that that NZTA did ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

3 days ago
Jurisdiction of Disputes Tribunal to double

Legislation that will double the financial jurisdiction of the Disputes Tribunal from $30,000 to $60,000 has passed first reading in Parliament today, Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith. “We need to improve court timeliness and access to justice so that Kiwis and get on with their lives. Court delays affect everyone, the ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

3 days ago
Protecting New Zealand from foreign interference

Legislation that will specifically criminalise foreign interference and strengthen espionage offences has passed first reading in Parliament today, Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith says. “It is normal and appropriate for states to interact and work to influence one another. This encourages cooperation and can have mutually beneficial outcomes. “However, the reality ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

3 days ago
Significant milestone for Canterbury Road of National Significance

Transport Minister Simeon Brown has welcomed news that the NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) Board has approved funding towards pre-implementation and early works on the State Highway 1 (SH1) Belfast to Pegasus Motorway and Woodend Bypass Road of National Significance (RoNS). “Reaching this significant milestone is a reflection of our Government’s ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

3 days ago
Health survey results to help drive change

Health Minister Dr Shane Reti says findings from the annual Health Survey highlight the need to continue driving better health outcomes for New Zealanders. The New Zealand Health Survey is an annual snapshot of key metrics measured from July 2023 – July 2024. Findings released this morning include: In 2023/24, ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

3 days ago
Final push needed to get to Smokefree 2025

A renewed effort to get people to quit smoking will build on what has worked to date and target the groups who most need support, Associate Health Minister Casey Costello said today. “The latest New Zealand Health Survey results show the daily smoking rate at 6.9 per cent and we ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

3 days ago
New diplomatic appointments

Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters has announced four new diplomatic appointments. “Our diplomats play an important role in ensuring New Zealand’s interests are maintained and enhanced across the world,” Mr Peters says. “It is a pleasure to announce the appointment of these senior diplomats from the Ministry of Foreign ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

3 days ago
Next steps for Regulatory Standards Bill

Regulation Minister David Seymour has today announced the next steps in the Government’s plan improve the quality of regulation by opening consultation on a proposed Regulatory Standards Bill. “New Zealand's low wages can be blamed on low productivity, and low productivity can be blamed on poor regulation,” says Mr Seymour. ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

3 days ago
Red Tape Tipline goes live

Minister for Regulation David Seymour has today announced that the Ministry for Regulation’s Red Tape Tipline is now live. “We want to hear about your red tape horror stories. From today, New Zealanders will have a say on how they are regulated through an online portal,” says Mr Seymour. The ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

3 days ago
Youth Parliament 2025 announced

The Minister for Youth Matt Doocey has today announced the eleventh Youth Parliament will be taking place in 2025. “Youth Parliament offers a unique youth development opportunity to young people from across New Zealand to experience the political process and learn about how government works,” says Mr Doocey. “The two-day ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
Police stats show promising change

After nearly a year in Government, Kiwis have seen significant change across law and order with promising early results shown across some Police statistics, says Police Minister Mark Mitchell. “In August 2023, I told New Zealanders that if they had not started to see a change in public safety within ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
Better coordination of anti-scam efforts

With the launch of Fraud Awareness Week, the Government is committing to new coordination efforts across industry and government to combat online scams, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly says. “Online financial scams are a growing problem for New Zealand. New data released today shows that Kiwis lost nearly ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
Minister to consider 7AA select committee report

Minister for Children Karen Chhour will consider the recommendations made by the Social Services and Community Committee in its report back to Parliament on the Oranga Tamariki (Repeal of Section 7AA) Amendment Bill. “I want to thank the people who made submissions and those who appeared before the committee in ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago
Defence Minister to attend ASEAN meeting

Defence Minister Judith Collins will this week attend the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN) Defence Ministers’ Meeting-Plus in Vientiane, Laos. “We need to take every opportunity to engage with our international partners, given the increasingly unstable geo-political situation,” Ms Collins says. “New Zealand has a long-standing commitment to this ...

BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz

4 days ago

ACT’s David Seymour won’t ‘bow down’ to his hapū leaders

They have pleaded with the ACT leader to stop what they say are abusive violations of Te Tiriti o Waitangi. ...

Radio NZ – political

1 hour ago
Former political figure who abused teens loses name suppression

However, his name remains under wraps as he has already indicated he will appeal. ...

Radio NZ – political

2 hours ago
Educating young people about social media would be far more effective than a ban – Finland can sh...

Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Susan Grantham, Lecturer in Communication, Griffith University Shutterstock The federal government’s proposed social media ban for under-16s has sparked widespread debate, affecting millions of young Australians, their families and educators. But will it actually work? While the aim behind this ban ...

Evening ReportBy The Conversation

2 hours ago
Ant stings can be painful. Here’s how to avoid getting stung this summer (and what to do if you do...

Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Sam Robinson, Senior Research Fellow, Institute for Molecular Bioscience, The University of Queensland AG-PHOTOS/Shutterstock With the start of summer just days away, many of us will be looking forward to long sunny days spent at the beach, by the pool, out ...

Evening ReportBy The Conversation

2 hours ago
Is using the Future Fund for housing, energy and infrastructure really ‘raiding Australia’s nest...

Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Mark Crosby, Professor, Monash University Chichimaru/Shutterstock Australia has a seriously big “nest egg”. The Future Fund – our sovereign wealth fund set up in 2006 – now manages about $230 billion. Specifically, its remit is to “invest for the benefit ...

Evening ReportBy The Conversation

2 hours ago
Women are less likely to receive CPR than men. Training on manikins with breasts could help

Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Jessica Stokes-Parish, Assistant Professor in Medicine, Bond University Pixel-Shot/Shutterstock If someone’s heart suddenly stops beating, they may only have minutes to live. Doing CPR (cardiopulmonary resusciation) can increase their chances of survival. CPR makes sure blood keeps pumping, providing oxygen to ...

Evening ReportBy The Conversation

3 hours ago
The Friday Poem: ‘Boyhood’ by Art Nahill

A new poem by Art Nahill. Boyhood I hate the way the dog cowers when I raise my voice. After all this time together she’s still not sure what I’m capable of. As kids with too much time we sprinkled salt on slugs plucked from summer gardens watched them shrivel ...

The SpinoffBy Art Nahill

5 hours ago
The Unity Books bestseller chart for the week ending November 22

The only published and available best-selling indie book chart in New Zealand is the top 10 sales list recorded every week at Unity Books’ stores in High St, Auckland, and Willis St, Wellington. AUCKLAND 1 Orbital by Samantha Harvey (Jonathan Cape, $26) The slight, superb winner of the Booker Prize ...

The SpinoffBy The Spinoff Review of Books

5 hours ago
‘Wanted’ for war crimes over Gaza: Israel’s Netanyahu, Gallant face ICC arrest warrants

Democracy Now! NERMEEN SHAIKH: In The Hague, the International Criminal Court has issued arrest warrants for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and former Defence Minister Yoav Gallant for crimes against humanity and war crimes committed during Israel’s assault on Gaza. In a statement, the ICC said the Israeli leaders had, ...

Evening ReportBy Asia Pacific Report

5 hours ago
New Child Protection Investigation Unit announced by Children’s Minister

The unit will be up and running by early next year, Children's Minister Karen Chhour says. ...

Radio NZ – political

6 hours ago
In-person submissions on Treaty Principles Bill to be at Parliament or by video call

In-person submissions on the Treaty Principles Bill will all be held at Parliament or by video call. ...

Radio NZ – political

6 hours ago
‘Got my support’ – Christopher Luxon stands by Erica Stanford after ‘stupid ...

The prime minister says it wasn't appropriate behaviour but that Erica Stanford had apologised. ...

Radio NZ – political

6 hours ago
Gang chapter president’s patch seized in first 24 hours of ban

The first arrest was made just three minutes after midnight, with 11 more to come. ...

Radio NZ – political

6 hours ago
Government slammed for pushing on with boot camps amid trial

Labour has accused National of ignoring the evidence. ...

Radio NZ – political

6 hours ago
The unspoken rule of conversation that explains why AI chatbots feel so human

Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Celeste Rodriguez Louro, Chair of Linguistics and Director of Language Lab, The University of Western Australia Rroselavy / Shutterstock Earlier this year, a Hong Kong finance worker was tricked into paying US$25 million to scammers who had used deepfake technology to ...

Evening ReportBy The Conversation

6 hours ago
Who were Caracalla and Geta, the cruel and unhinged Roman brother emperors depicted in Gladiator II?

Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michael Hanaghan, Senior Research Fellow in Latin Christianity in Late Antiquity, Australian Catholic University Warning: this article contains mild spoilers. When Gladiator I was released in 2000, I was a high school Classics student and the film brought Classical literature to life ...

Evening ReportBy The Conversation

6 hours ago
Gang patch ban: The first 24 hours

The first arrest was made just three minutes after midnight, with 11 more to come. ...

Radio NZ – political

7 hours ago
New Zealand Government Urged To Back ICC Arrest Warrants For Israeli Leaders Without Equivocation

“We are waiting for our government to announce it will arrest Netanyahu and Gallant immediately if they set foot in Aotearoa New Zealand” says PSNA National Chair John Minto. ...

Scoop politics

7 hours ago
Justice Committee Makes Further Decisions About Submissions Process For The Principles Of The Treaty...

The committee plans to hold hearings in the week starting Monday, 27 January and the weeks starting 10, 17 and 24 February 2025. ...

Scoop politics

8 hours ago
Watch live: Christopher Luxon faces questions during power station visit

It comes as Labour accuses National of not listening to evidence about boot camps. ...

Radio NZ – political

8 hours ago
Survivors of abuse in care know how redress should work – will the government finally listen?

Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Stephen Winter, Associate Professor in Political Theory, University of Auckland, Waipapa Taumata Rau Getty Images When Prime Minister Christopher Luxon stood in Parliament last week to apologise to survivors of abuse in care, his words were among many fine speeches by ...

Evening ReportBy The Conversation

8 hours ago
Review: The Day of the Jackal is a riveting and ridiculous ride

Eddie Redmayne’s globe-trotting assassin thriller on TVNZ is worth putting your phone down for. This is an excerpt from our weekly pop culture newsletter Rec Room. Sign up here. This is a vulnerable thing to say as someone who often writes about television for a job, but boy am I really ...

The SpinoffBy Alex Casey

8 hours ago
RNA editing is the next frontier in gene therapy – here’s what you need to know

Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Flora Hui, Research Fellow, Centre for Eye Research Australia and Honorary Fellow, Department of Surgery (Ophthalmology), The University of Melbourne IoanaB/Shutterstock The United States Food and Drug Administration has just approved the first-ever clinical trial that uses CRISPR-Cas13 RNA editing. Its ...

Evening ReportBy The Conversation

10 hours ago
Yes, you still need to use sunscreen, despite what you’ve heard on TikTok

Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Katie Lee, PhD Candidate, Dermatology Research Centre, The University of Queensland Karolina Grabowska/Pexels Summer is nearly here. But rather than getting out the sunscreen, some TikTokers are urging followers to chuck it out and go sunscreen-free. They claim it’s healthier ...

Evening ReportBy The Conversation

10 hours ago
Humans are killing off the old and wise animals that hold nature together. Here’s what must change

Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Keller Kopf, Senior Lecturer in Ecology, Charles Darwin University Laxmikant Ameenagad, Shutterstock In humans and other animals, ageing is generally associated with a decline in biological function. But scientists are now discovering older animals perform vital roles in populations and ecosystems. ...

Evening ReportBy The Conversation

10 hours ago
A man scouring Google Earth found a mysterious scar in the Australian outback – and now scientists...

Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Matej Lipar, Adjunct Research Fellow, School of Earth and Planetary Sciences, Curtin University Author provided/Google Earth Earlier this year, a caver was poring over satellite images of the Nullarbor Plain when he came across something unexpected: an enormous, mysterious scar etched ...

Evening ReportBy The Conversation

10 hours ago
Design as a movement: how First Nations people take ownership of their cultural stories through fash...

Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Treena Clark, Chancellor’s Indigenous Research Fellow, Faculty of Design, Architecture and Building, University of Technology Sydney Once located 250 metres to the east of the Art Gallery of South Australia, the grand beaux-arts style Jubilee Exhibition Building was constructed to house the ...

Evening ReportBy The Conversation

10 hours ago
‘We need more doctors’ – Support for new Waikato medical school

The Association of Salaried Medical Specialists says a third medical school and more students in Auckland and Otago are both needed. ...

Radio NZ – political

10 hours ago
Cricket balls can concuss and even kill batters – at all levels, helmet use must be taken seriousl...

Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Annette Greenhow, Assistant Professor, Faculty of Law, Bond University Linda George/Shutterstock The ten-year anniversary of the death of much-loved Australian cricketer Phillip Hughes falls on November 27. The 25-year-old’s life was tragically cut short in 2014 when a bouncer ...

Evening ReportBy The Conversation

10 hours ago
Hold the roosters, no economic dawn yet

Treasury likely to downgrade economic forecast while Chris Bishop says the government won’t be ‘a slave to a surplus’, writes Anna Rawhiti-Connell in this extract from The Bulletin. To receive The Bulletin in full each weekday, sign up here. Recession will be deeper and last longer — Treasury At a recent Spinoff ...

The SpinoffBy Anna Rawhiti-Connell

11 hours ago
Knowing superstitions aren’t real doesn’t stop us behaving superstitiously – why?

Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Stephanie Gomes-Ng, Senior Lecturer of Psychology, Auckland University of Technology Getty Images Former New Zealand prime minister John Key has three white rabbits painted on his helicopter, a nod to his “massively superstitious” habit of repeating “white rabbits” three times at ...

Evening ReportBy The Conversation

12 hours ago
Government slammed for pushing ahead with boot camps while trial still under way

The coalition has "absolutely no intention of listening to the evidence that comes out of their experiment", Labour MP says. ...

Radio NZ – political

13 hours ago
Smoke and mirrors in tobacco debate

Labour claims Government is ‘cherry-picking’ smoking trends data to hide decade-first increase in daily smokers The post Smoke and mirrors in tobacco debate appeared first on Newsroom. ...

NewsroomBy Fox Meyer

13 hours ago
Smoke and mirrors in heated tobacco debate

Labour claims Government is ‘cherry-picking’ smoking trends data to hide decade-first increase in daily smokers The post Smoke and mirrors in heated tobacco debate appeared first on Newsroom. ...

NewsroomBy Fox Meyer

13 hours ago
Treasury bangs the drum on ‘unsustainable’ superannuation

The Government’s economic adviser is sending a message it doesn’t want to hear – superannuation is increasingly unaffordable The post Treasury bangs the drum on ‘unsustainable’ superannuation appeared first on Newsroom. ...

NewsroomBy Tina Morrison

13 hours ago
Victims of sex offending welcome shift on name suppression laws

A man abused by a former political figure is "immensely relieved" at a government proposal to end secrecy around sex offenders' identities. ...

Radio NZ – political

13 hours ago
This week three parties stood together – can they withstand the storm to come?

There is plenty yet to play out, but the next election is at this rate shaping up as trio versus trio, writes Toby Manhire. A subplot of this week’s historic hīkoi mō te Tiriti has been the sight of the three opposition parties presenting a unified front. Te Pāti Māori ...

The SpinoffBy Toby Manhire

14 hours ago
All 33 malls in Auckland ranked from worst to best

From the low lows of abandon empires to the high highs of a mall done just right. This is the second in the Malls of New Zealand series, where we rank the malls in major centres. Next week: Wellington. A note from the editor: This is the hardest ranking we’ve ...

The SpinoffBy Group Think

14 hours ago
The cost of being: A clothes-mad 20-something who walks everywhere

As part of our series exploring how New Zealanders live and our relationship with money, a 27-year-old apartment-dwelling marketing exec explains her approach to spending and saving. Want to be part of The Cost of Being? Fill out the questionnaire here. Gender: Female. Age: 27. Ethnicity: Pākehā. Role: Marketing exec at ...

The SpinoffBy The Cost of Being

14 hours ago
Newsroom daily quiz, Friday 22 November

Loading…(function(i,s,o,g,r,a,m){var ql=document.querySelectorAll('A[data-quiz],DIV[data-quiz]'); if(ql){if(ql.length){for(var k=0;k<ql.length;k++){ql[k].id='quiz-embed-'+k;ql[k].href="javascript:var i=document.getElementById('quiz-embed-"+k+"');try{qz.startQuiz(i)}catch(e){i.start=1;i.style.cursor='wait';i.style.opacity='0.5'};void(0);"}}};i['QP']=r;i[r]=i[r]||function(){(i[r].q=i[r].q||[]).push(arguments)},i[r].l=1*new Date();a=s.createElement(o),m=s.getElementsByTagName(o)[0];a.async=1;a.src=g;m.parentNode.insertBefore(a,m)})(window,document,'script','https://take.quiz-maker.com/3012/CDN/quiz-embed-v1.js','qp');Got a good quiz question? Send Newsroom your questions.The post Newsroom daily quiz, Friday 22 November appeared first on Newsroom. ...

NewsroomBy Newsroom Puzzles

14 hours ago

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