Ardern’s Manus Island offer
Written By:
- Date published:
7:36 am, November 18th, 2017 - 298 comments
Categories: australian politics, blogs, David Farrar, greens, International, jacinda ardern, labour, Media, Propaganda, the praiseworthy and the pitiful -
Tags: malcolm turnbull, Manus Island, peter dutton
It has been an interesting week.
Jacinda Ardern has stuck to her guns and again invited Australia to consider New Zealand’s Manus Island refugee offer.
Good on her.
Australia’s initial response, that it has signed a deal with the US of A and that no help was required was frankly bollocks. The Trump White House was that annoyed with the deal that it was the only thing that Trump talked about during his initial conversation with Malcolm Turnbull. After reading the transcript you really get the feeling that very very few Manus based refugees are going to make it to the US of A although apparently some have been approved for resettlement.
But the Turnbull Government is in a difficult position. The world is looking at Manus Island and the almost universal response is amazement and disbelief at how bad Australia has managed things.
Of course the problem is that Turnbull and Co will be doing polling and focus grouping on the issue and they will realise they are onto a political winner by being belligerent. I can’t understand it myself but I have been in Australia during general elections in the past and this issue (boat people) strikes a real nerve amongst swinging voters. Fear and loathing is always a formidable combination. And which right wing party worries about human rights norms and international obligations when there are votes to gather?
The Turnbull Government is clearly in a bind. Jacinda has shown it to be a heartless ruthless bunch. So how should it respond?
Earlier this week it leaked information to a Rupert Murdoch owned paper which allowed it to put its spin on the debacle. And you have to admire such native cunning. The spin was that refugee boats are on their way to New Zealand because the Ardern Government is perceived to be a soft touch.
From the Courier Mail:
PEOPLE smugglers are moving to cash-in on a left-leaning New Zealand as it can be revealed
Operation Sovereign Borders has turned back four boats trying to get across the ditch.
In shock new details, it can be revealed crime syndicates have tried to bypass Australia’s tough immigration measures and attempted to send four boats, carrying 164 asylum seekers, to NZ.
It comes as there are genuine fears within intelligence communities that the direction of Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern who has kept her predecessor’s offer to resettle 150 refugees but has been highly-critical of Australia’s policy may be used by people smugglers to encourage desperate people to risk their lives at sea.
The Courier-Mail understands that “chatter” has resumed among people smugglers who have pointed to the stand-off between Australia and NZ.
It is not know when the boats were intercepted or what country they started from but it is believed they told OSB they were headed to NZ. They were turned or towed back to near Indonesian waters.
The chances of boats making it all the way to New Zealand are remote. New Zealand’s isolation makes us a very unlikely target.
It is quite possible that faced with the prospect that his boat would be turned back if he said he was going to Australia the captain of a refugee ship told a little fib and said they were going to Aotearoa New Zealand.
The Greens in the Australian Senate then stepped in and expressed support for the Nauru refugees.
I understand that the Senate has formally passed a resolution of support although I can’t confirm if the wording of the resolution was that proposed by Senator McKim.
Then Ardern countered by pledging $3 million from the Foreign Affairs Aid budget to cover ongoing costs in Manus. And she managed to get the Australians to agree to work on a process so that if New Zealand’s offer was accepted then it could be instituted quickly. From Stuff:
Jacinda Ardern has given $3 million of taxpayer money to help refugees on Manus Island.
The money will go to either the Papua New Guinea government or the Red Cross, and will be used to assist the stranded refugees.
Ms Ardern made the offer after discussing the deal with Australian Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull, who again refused the initial offer of New Zealand taking 150 refugees.
Ms Ardern has discussed the matter twice informally with Turnbull at the East Asia Summit, but did not get the “substantive meeting” she wanted.
However she said she did not get “snubbed”, adding that every time she’s asked to meet with an Australian official about Manus Island, her request has been accepted.
“I can tell you that New Zealand’s offer remains on the table. It remains on the table because the need remains,” Ms Ardern told reporters.
“We believe we have a role to play as members of the international community and as neighbours to Australia, to offer our support in finding a resolution to this situation.”
Ms Ardern said she and Mr Turnbull had agreed to get officials started in a process, so if Australia did take up the offer, it would be able to happen quickly.
Round two of the Australian response has now occurred. Peter Dutton, and if there is a more reprehensible human being on the planet let me know, has said that if New Zealand helps the Manus Island inhabitants then the New Zealand Australia relationship will suffer. Strange that an act of humanity should cause a diplomatic incident between long standing friendly nations with so much in common.
My personal opinion is that Dutton is the worst sort of politician, willing to subject non Australian humans to misery for political gain. There should be a special place in hell for him and his sort.
And he has shown he does not care where they are from. Kiwi born bikie Aaron Graham beat Dutton twice in the Supreme Court but Dutton still managed to have Graham extradited to New Zealand, even though Graham had spent 40 of his 50 years living in Australia. The rule of law does not matter for some right wingers.
Australia has gone into full smear mode. The latest claim is that the refugees at Nauru are paedophiles. The leaked report did not disclose how many or who. This leak also brings into doubt the accuracy of what Malcolm Turnbull said to Donald Trump when he claimed the bulk of the refugees were economic refugees from Iran, Pakistan and Afghanistan.
Two ex security guards have chosen to smear the residents. The moral standing and judgment of people wishing to do this job should be questioned. And when you subject people to terrible conditions they can do terrible things. I am waiting for National’s smear machine to start although it appears that it already has.
Of course there is the upcoming Queensland State election. And the Libnats are seeking second preferences from One Nation voters. It must be hard for the right to not go full on racist when an election is approaching.
Australia’s offshore warehousing of asylum seekers who approach Australia by boat is not driven by concern about border controls, or about people smuggling, or about loss of life at sea.
Rather, in the context of an electoral system based on compulsory, preferential voting in single-member constituencies, it has become the device by which the ruling Liberal-National coalition seeks to attract second-preference votes from electors who give their first preferences to Pauline Hanson’s racist One Nation party.
The left in New Zealand have chosen to insist that Ardern is not doing enough. Much as I love them I have to respectfully disagree. I can’t imagine her doing more. Although I do hope that the TPPA negotiations result in a further improved position for New Zealand.
And there are suggestions that this Government should care instead about the local poor. As if the drummers have given a damn about their plight during the past nine years …
Brisk hit job by the Turnbull govt on Ardern – leaked a cable about refugee crimes, anonymous criticism of her: https://t.co/36DxgNFsrx
— Bernard Keane (@BernardKeane) November 16, 2017
https://twitter.com/MrDenmore/status/931429841286545408
It will take more than @golrizghahraman and the @NZGreens voice in Parliament to get the Government to take immediate action on this issue. Thankful for these brave activists’ show of solidarity. #BringThemHere https://t.co/KYs5pxadi8
— Young Greens of Aotearoa (@YoungGreensNZ) November 17, 2017
People angry Jacinda is not doing enough for the Manus refugees and people angry she’s doing too much for the Manus refugees. Officially Prime Minister then.
— Richard Hills (@RichardHills_) November 17, 2017
298 comments on “Ardern’s Manus Island offer ”
- Comments are now closed
- Comments are now closed
CommentsOpinions
Recent Comments
FeedsPartyGovtMedia
- Treasury warns deeper recession worsening Budget deficit
The gift that keeps giving: David Seymour has now opened a split in the coalition over the future of National’s promise to build a new medical school. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / TheKakaKia ora. Long stories short, here’s my top things to note in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and ...59 minutes ago - Weekly Roundup 22-November-2024
It’s another Friday and we’re inching closer to the end of the year. Here’s some of the stories that have caught our attention this week. This post, like all our work, is brought to you by a largely volunteer crew and made possible by generous donations from our readers and ...2 hours ago - Beyond Question?
Record Numbers: The Hīkoi mō te Tiriti, which began at the tip of the North, and the tail of the South, on 11 November, culminated outside Parliament on Tuesday, 19 November 2024, in one of the largest demonstrations in New Zealand’s political history.ACCORDING TO TE ARA, the Ministry of Culture ...2 hours ago - The Rush To Blame “The Activists”
Activists are such easy scapegoats. The right and center have been conditioned for decades to roll their eyes at all protests. The left are easily aggravated over students leading movements they see as belonging to grownups, who have more important concerns like the economy and whether the trains come on ...3 hours ago - Cutting Through An Inundation of Dipshit Racists
Hi,Watching New Zealand from afar offers a strange perspective. It can be a good thing — distance from Aotearoa helped keep me sane while I reported on abuse at New Zealand’s biggest megachurch over the course of a year. It helps fuel my silly podcast. But it can also be ...3 hours ago - This is bad news
The speech yesterday by Treasury’s Chief Economic Advisor warning that the books are in worse shape than forecasted looks like it’s part of a softening-up process for either more cuts or a longer wait to get back into surplus. The speech was a highly unusual public preview of Treasury’s Half-Yearly ...5 hours ago - Skeptical Science New Research for Week #47 2024
Open access notables Projected increase in the frequency of extremely active Atlantic hurricane seasons, Lopez et al., Science Advances: Future changes to the year-to-year swings between active and inactive North Atlantic tropical cyclone (TC) seasons have received little attention, yet may have great societal implications in areas prone to hurricane ...14 hours ago - Chicken Kiev
Chatting in the supermarket this morning, I found I needed to lunge for the chicken drumsticks.Coping mechanisms: who hasn’t felt a greater need for them lately?When it all gets too much, I turn to demonstrating handy butchery hacks.It wasn’t that she’d said anything wrong, our friend, not at all. We ...17 hours ago - The year is 2024 and it’s 1984
This is written in response to the highly significant open letter from a group of economists that was today addressed to Christopher Luxon. The year is 2024, and it’s 1984. The country is reeling from a record Olympic medal gold haul, while the globe grapples with the choice of the ...18 hours ago - The IPCA has failed
Back in 2022, RNZ took an in-depth look at the "Independent" Police Conduct Authority and its handling of killings by police. These are the most serious test of oversight, and you would expect the police's use of lethal force to receive the most severe scrutiny. But despite the police regularly ...22 hours ago - Thursday 21 November 2024
The Hīkoi mō Te Tiriti arrived at Parliament on Tuesday – the size is being debated but estimates range from 42,000 to 100,000. The Prime Minister is defending not attending due to some of the organisers being affiliated with Te Pāti Māori. The national gang patch ban came into force ...22 hours ago - ‘These budget cuts are counter-productive and make no sense’
I spoke to former Productivity Chair Nana this morning about the letter he and a group of other economists sent to PM Christopher Luxon to urge the Government to urgently suspend cuts to spending and investment for the sake of the economy, struggling businesses and the wellbeing of vulnerable ...24 hours ago
- ACT’s Astroturfing & A Co-ordinated Attack on Te Pati Māori
Unity on the Streets / Unity at the TableAfter the Hīkoi, all three right wing Coalition leaders came together to push the idea that the 42,000 - 50,000 + strong Hikoi was somehow less potent and brave, and more illegitimate than the energy and crowd displayed.Prime Minister Christopher Luxon 20-November: ...1 day ago - Durability of carbon dioxide removal is critical for stabilizing temperatures
This is a re-post from the Climate Brink The world is emitting over 40 gigatons of CO2 per year, contributing to an accelerating warming of the planet. The world needs to cut emissions rapidly to be remotely on track to meet our Paris Agreement goals of limiting warming to well-below 2C, and we ...1 day ago
- I Love My Leather Jacket
I wear my leather jacket like a great big hugRadiating charm - a living cloak of luckIt's the only concrete link with an absent friendIt's a symbol I can wear 'till we meet againOr it's a weight around my neck while the owner's freeBoth protector and reminder of mortalityIt's a ...1 day ago - Throwback Thursday: Will “Auckland Transport” Survive?
With Auckland Transport’s future up in the air under Mayor Wayne Brown’s proposed CCO reform, we’ve dug way back into the archives, to unearth this post originally published in March 2010. As you’ll see, many of the debates that were being had when AT was first proposed continue to ...1 day ago
- Economists call on PM to suspend budget cuts for the sake of the economy
Nicola Willis’ budget cuts are under fire from economists for having no clear rationale and worsening the recession. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāKia ora. Long stories short, here’s my top things to note in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and poverty on Thursday, November 21: The news at ...1 day ago
- The end of policing by consent
National has appointed a new police commissioner. And he explicitly rejects policing by consent: Asked if he subscribed to policing by consent, he said he did not. “I don’t talk about policing by consent. I talk about trust and confidence, and it is fundamentally important that the police have ...2 days ago
- The Treaty Principles Bill: A Who’s Who
David Horatio Waterbed SeymourFringe politician and dweeb transformed successfully by ThinkTank money into a well-oiled soundbite robot.Currently programmed to say: Equal rights for all New Zealanders Equal rights for all New Zealanders Equal rights for all New Zealanders Was previously programmed to say:I am a proud libertarian andI am a ...2 days ago - Kinleith mill closure shows need for industrial strategy
NZCTU Te Kauae Kaimahi President Richard Wagstaff is calling on the Government to deliver an economic and industrial strategy for regional manufacturing, rather than just expressing sympathy for job losses, following the announced closure of Kinleith mill in Tokoroa. “The closure Kinleith mill in Tokoroa is not just devastating for ...2 days ago
- 27% of kids going hungry, up from 21% in a year
One in four Kiwi children live in households where food runs out often or sometimes. Photo: Getty ImagesKia ora. Long stories short, here’s my top things to note in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and poverty on Wednesday, November 20: The lead: The official annual Health Survey found sharp ...2 days ago - Transport modelling is an illusion
This guest post by Tim Adriaansen, an advocate for accessibility and sustainable transport, originally published on LinkedIn and cross posted here with permission. People prefer cars, right? Probably not. Here’s why. Granted, most people in English-speaking countries use a car to get around. This simple reality underpins our transport ...2 days ago
- Young Maori take over
Neither Wellington nor Parliament has ever seen anything like it before. The Police said there were more than 40,000 but however many there were, yesterday’s Hikoi to Parliament was a monumental event. It was almost three times the Foreshore and Seabed martch of 2004 and many,many times bigger than ...2 days ago
- Gordon Campbell On The Hikoi Aftermath
The euphoria from yesterday’s hikoi may be transitory, but is no less valuable for that. It is pretty rare for the left to feel itself to be in the overwhelming majority, and speaking as the voice of the people. Lest that momentum be lost, the organisers will no doubt be ...2 days ago - Sabin 33 #3 – Solar panels generate too much waste and will overwhelm landfills
On November 1, 2024 we announced the publication of 33 rebuttals based on the report "Rebutting 33 False Claims About Solar, Wind, and Electric Vehicles" written by Matthew Eisenson, Jacob Elkin, Andy Fitch, Matthew Ard, Kaya Sittinger & Samuel Lavine and published by the Sabin Center for Climate Change Law at Columbia ...3 days ago
- What’s the time Mr Seymour?
Mr David Seymour crawling up to the ceilingThe sun don't shine the sun don't shine the sun don't shine at allMamma Pappa say you should go to school, I don't know what forNow that I've grown up and seen the world and all its liesSong: Southside of Bombay"Ake, ake, ake" ...3 days ago - Submit to defend te Tiriti!
The Justice Committee has called for submissions on National's racist and constitutionally radical Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi Bill. Submissions can be made at the link above or by post, and are due by Tuesday, 7 January 2025. But I'd get in quick, in case National grows a spine ...3 days ago
- We need to talk about Kevin
All happy families are alike; each unhappy family has a Drunk Uncle Kevin in there somewhere. If your Kevin is anything like the ones I know, he was getting along happily enough without having to think too much about the Treaty Principles Bill apart from bloody good job, onya guys ...3 days ago - The hikoi
Like everyone else (everyone who wasn't there, anyway), I've spent the morning watching the hikoi march on Parliament. The pictures are astounding: parliament grounds and the surrounding streets are full, and there are still people backed up along Lambton Quay. The police are estimating 35,000 people, and that's a floor ...3 days ago
- Why Govt & NZ Inc should boycott & regulate Facebook
3 days ago - How should we talk about change?
A better world isn’t just possible, it’s desirable. And that’s how we should frame a lot of our conversations around making a greater Auckland. As an example take urban climate action. A climate friendly Auckland: Is free from congestion Enables people to travel how they choose Is filled with ...3 days ago
- AMA + Holiday Webworm Merch!
3 days ago - Discount Code for Webworm Merch!
Hi,So there’s a bunch of new stuff on the Webworm store (www.webworm.store) — just in time for the Holidays. Read more ...3 days ago - Trying to defuse the tension
There were urgent moves yesterday at Parliament to try and defuse the tension building up over ACT’s Treaty Principles Bill. The Bill’s author, ACT leader David Seymour, told reporters that he understood the Justice Select Committee met yesterday to discuss how long it should take to consider submissions on the ...3 days ago
- An Irritable NZ Pawn – David Seymour Admits Treaty Principles Bill will clear the way for deve...
3 days ago - Gordon Campbell On The Hikoi Arrival, And Tyler Childers
Politicians like to bang on all about the need to heal society’s racial/economic divisions, but in their actions they’re more keen on stoking those divisions, with the Treaty Principles Bill being the classic example. The Bill seeks to dilute the Crown’s responsibilities to Māori at the same time as it ...3 days ago
- Socially Backwards and Fiscally Forwards: the False Ideological Divide and the “Conservative” Li...
3 days ago - Kaamos: Accepted
I appreciate that A Phuulish Fellow has been fairly quiet recently. That’s a combination of two things – comparatively little in the way of relevant material to discuss (at least until The War of the Rohirrim comes out next month), and my general work on The Secret Non-Fiction Writing Project. ...4 days ago - Here’s how governments could fix their Paris climate commitment failures
This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections Governments around the world face a conundrum. Virtually none are on track to meet their Paris climate commitments. That includes the United States, which committed to cut its emissions at least 50% below 2005 levels by 2030 but is only on track for 32-43% cuts ...4 days ago
- Unstoppable.
4 days ago
- Katherine Trebeck – An Alternative Economic Narrative
The era of neoliberalism has been destructive on so many levels, with a huge growth in wealth and privilege for the one percent. A hollowing out of the state; fraying of the safety net; inadequate government investment in infrastructure; and continued environmental degradation has resulted in damage on a vast ...4 days ago - In a Manner of Speaking
In a manner of speakingI just want to sayThat I could never forget the wayYou told me everythingBy saying nothingOh, give me the wordsGive me the wordsThat tell me nothingOh, give me the wordsGive me the wordsThat tell me everythingSongwriter: Winston TongNext Tuesday, the subscription price for Nick’s Kōrero will ...4 days ago - Monday 18 November 2024
The NZNO have announced a nationwide strike for December over its pay dispute with Health NZ, who have put a 1 per cent cap on pay rises. The Hīkoi mō Te Tiriti and Treaty Principles Bill remain front and centre in the media, with the impacts of the Hana-Rawhiti Maipi-Clarke-led ...4 days ago
- Shipley warns Seymour’s bill is ‘inviting civil war’
The divisive Treaty Principles Bill is not just a risk for the National Party, it’s a risk to civil order and unity, warns a National Party grandee. Photo: Getty ImagesKia ora. Long stories short, here’s my top things to note in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and poverty on ...4 days ago - A clearer network for the City Rail Link?
This post was originally published on Linked In by Nicolas Reid. It is republished here with permission. Auckland is now just a year or so away from having the keystone of its urban rail network complete. As I wrote about here, the City Rail Link will be a literal game changer for ...4 days ago
- National’s support base is wobbling
If ACT leader David Seymour intended the Treaty Principles Bill to drive a wedge into National’s support base, he may well already be succeeding. By midnight on Thursday after the Maori Party haka in Parliament, National MPs were being deluged with emails and messages from their members calling them out ...4 days ago
- 2024 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #46
A listing of 33 news and opinion articles we found interesting and shared on social media during the past week: Sun, November 10, 2024 thru Sat, November 16, 2024. Story of the week Our Story of the Week is completely "meta" (no, not that Meta). It's about our exploring how ...4 days ago
- Grifter Eftpos Tamaki at it again
..Thanks for reading Frankly Speaking ! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.Self-appointed “Bishop” and proto-fascist, Brian Tamaki was at it again on 16 November, blocking Auckland’s southern motorway, SH1.This time, the target of his ire wasn’t the Civil Unions Act; covid lock-downs; mask mandates; or ...5 days ago - Rip up a bill, lead a haka are words to live by
I cannot stop grabbing people by the lapels, or shoulders, or similar, and raving at them about the tiny miracles in my ears.I can hear again! There could not be a more satisfied customer in all the world.In a noisy cafe I am even catching words that Karren cannot, she ...5 days ago - Unintended Consequences
Take the baitYou pay the priceIt's much too lateFor good adviceYou know and I know that our good things' throughBecause there's consequences for what we doConsequences for me and youWriters: Kevin Robert Hayes, David Nagier, Bonnie Adele Hayes.Fallout from the first readingOne News began last night by saying that tens ...6 days ago - Thank you, driver!
Today, Saturday 16th of November, is Auckland Transport’s Bus Driver Appreciation Day! Saturday 16 November marks the third annual Auckland Transport (AT) ‘Bus Driver Appreciation Day’, and this year we are encouraging all of New Zealand to thank their driver or let the bus go first if you are in ...6 days ago
- Totally Normal: Holiday Edition
Hi,If I was to accurately sum up my mental state over the week, I’d just say that I got a huge fright from my own shadow.I’d nipped out for an 11pm neighborhood stroll, just to calm down after a day of stress and screens. The Cure and Fazerdaze’s new record ...6 days ago - We Are Not Listening
The current rise of populism challenges the way we think about people’s relationship to the economy.We seem to be entering an era of populism, in which leadership in a democracy is based on preferences of the population which do not seem entirely rational nor serving their longer interests. ...
7 days ago - More lawlessness from National
On Tuesday, sick of government stonewalling, the Waitangi Tribunal issued a rare court order, ordering the Minister of Health to release unredacted documents within 48 hours showing its reasoning for disestablishing Te Aka Whai Ora, the Māori Health Authority. The government's response to the lawful order of a court? Yeah, ...7 days ago
- National’s tyrannical “foreign interference” law
Yesterday, under cover the the biggest political fight of the year, National quietly - covertly, even - introduced anti-foreign interference legislation. The bill is the product of a years-long work-program aimed at countering shit like this and this, and there's unquestionably a need to do something to counter foreign states' ...7 days ago
- The Haka Represents The Best Of Us
A few months ago, I was in an audience watching a Haka-Kapa and as I watched children dance and sing and sway and shout and beat, I couldn’t help but think “The Haka represents the best of us.”Yes, yes - there will be a thousand voices that rush forth to ...7 days ago
- Adding up the climate cost
St Mary’s Bay housing left hanging: Climate risk is systemically underestimated in the climate scenarios used by central banks, and a new report warns 10,000 houses are set to become uninsurable in Aotearoa. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāLong stories short, here’s the top six news items of note in ...7 days ago
- Auckland chafing at Bishop’s housing intensification orders
One of the major problems the Government has in implementing its ‘going for housing growth’ strategy is that it isn’t giving much funding help to councils. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāKia ora. Long stories short, here’s my top things to note in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and ...7 days ago - Friday 15 November 2024
The Treaty Principles Bill continues to dominate political news, with it passing its first reading in the House. Parliament was briefly suspended and Te Pāti Māori MP Hana-Rawhiti Maipi-Clarke suspended for 24 hours after leading a haka that was joined by opposition MPs and the public in the gallery. Willie ...1 week ago
- Weekly Roundup 15-November-2024
Happy Friday, welcome to another round-up of interesting stories about what’s happening in Auckland and other cities. Feel free to add your links in the comments! This post, like all our work, is brought to you by a largely volunteer crew and made possible by generous donations from our readers ...1 week ago
- Are We The Waiting?
And screamingAre we we are, are we we are the waitingAnd screamingAre we we are, are we we are the waitingForget me nots, second thoughts live in isolationHeads or tails and fairy tales in my mindAre we we are, are we we are the waiting unknownThe rage and love, the ...1 week ago - The Hoon around the week to November 15
The podcast above of the weekly ‘Hoon’ webinar for paying subscribers on Thursday night features co-hosts & talking about the week’s news with:The Kākā’s climate correspondent on the latest climate news, including from COP29 this week; on the US Presidential elections, Israel vs Gaza/Iran/Lebanon, Ukraine/Nato vs Russia/North ...1 week ago
- First Tea and Toast, now Milo — why do NZ’s best beverages need so much defending?
Only two months ago, Nicola Willis had to step in to stop Health New Zealand cutting tea and toast for post-birth parents, and now Lester Levy is riding to the rescue with a welcome message for all: our health workers can once again drink Milo, and will no longer need ...1 week ago - Gordon Campbell on the folly of making apologies in a social vacuum.
Day One of the Treaty Principles Bill…and everyone got what they wanted, and did what they liked. Heated words were exchanged. Culturally appropriate acts of outrage were performed. David Seymour got to play the victim card. Willie Jackson got kicked out of class. A comically red-faced Mr Speaker bellowed “Order, ...1 week ago
- Skeptical Science New Research for Week #46 2024
Open access notables Microbial solutions must be deployed against climate catastrophe, Peixoto et al., Nature Communications [comment]: The climate crisis is escalating. A multitude of microbe-based solutions have been proposed, and these technologies hold great promise and could be deployed along with other climate mitigation strategies. However, these solutions have ...1 week ago
- The PM gets some extremely valuable legal advice for free
You can pay a great deal of money for the services of a KC. So just what would some peerless legal writing from 40 or so of them be worth, do you reckon?Priceless, that’s what. It’s not even the half of it, but this is my favourite part of the ...1 week ago - D-day for the government
The government's Treaty Principles Bill is up for its first reading today - bought forward in a rush in a desperate effort to avoid the hikoi which is currently marching on Wellington. But the Prime Minister won’t be there for it – he’s literally running away to Peru! But he ...1 week ago
- 97% of submissions did not want no-cause evictions, Trump chooses a Russian spy for US Intelligence ...
Good morning, and I’m sorry I’ve been away for a couple of days.I’ve been focusing on the Hikoi, and also testing out sentiment on the Treaty Principles Bill. It’s complicated, and the Treaty Principles Bill will be debated in the House today. The Government’s own lawyers have told them the ...1 week ago - Government must vote down ACT Members Bill that would undermine workers’ rights
NZCTU Te Kauae Kaimahi President Richard Wagstaff is calling on the Government to vote down an ACT Party Members Bill that would undermine workers’ rights by making it easier for employers to fire workers. Last week ACT MP Laura Trask’s Employment Relations (Termination of Employment by Agreement) Amendment Bill was ...1 week ago
- Seymour causes thousands of unjustified absences by forcing kids to fight for their rights instead o...
The State would like to remind you that they are in control. They manage your employment prospects, and can destroy the job market you and yours rely on by mass-cancelling construction projects, cutting funding, and firing a good chunk of our public servants. They wield the mechanisms that provide scrutiny ...1 week ago - The Weight of the World
As the weight of the world Hangs on your shoulders The weight of the world Starts to take over again And over again All that you once loved, now you hate So slowly relearn how to meditate To have and to hold And never let go Can you feel it ...1 week ago - Thursday 14 November 2024
The Treaty Principles Bill is set to have its First Reading in the House today, as the Hīkoi mō Te Tiriti continues. More than 40 KCs have written to the Prime Minister and Attorney-General outlining their “grave concerns” about the substance of the Treaty Principles Bill, while an academic and ...1 week ago
- Trump’s return to White House brings the climate’s ‘find out’ phase closer
As we absorb the news of Trump's victory in the US Presidential election, here’s a wrap compiled just before the result of what it might mean for climate action: The UN Secretary General says the prospective departure of the United States would cripple the Paris Agreement, likening it to the ...1 week ago
- Time and Space in the City Centre
Patrick Reynolds is deputy chair of the City Centre Advisory Panel. The header image is from Walthamstow, London The city centre now has a few stretches of street where the space has been repurposed to a people and place focused design from full time traffic use. These are a great ...1 week ago
- An opportunity for a pro-growth tax switch
As the Hikoi against it swells into the tens of thousands, KCs call on National to kill off ACT’s divisive Treaty Principles Bill. Photo: Getty ImagesKia ora. Long stories short, here’s my top things to note in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and poverty on Thursday, November 14: The ...1 week ago
- Release: Government should be transparent on live exports
Targeted consultation on reinstating live cattle exports by sea won’t allow the New Zealand public to have their say. ...1 hour ago - NZ’s global climate rankings plummet as Govt removes agriculture from ETS
The Government has passed legislation to remove agriculture from the Emissions Trading Scheme (ETS) while Aotearoa’s reputation on climate action plummets. ...16 hours ago - Failed boot camp experiment must end
As legislation to set up boot camps passed its first reading, the Green Party urged the Government to abandon this failed policy experiment for the good of our rangatahi. ...17 hours ago
- Gender-affirming care must centre evidence and health needs, not political posturing
The Ministry of Health has today released an evidence brief regarding the use of puberty blockers in gender-affirming healthcare, amid moves by the government to limit access. ...17 hours ago
- Release: National doesn’t care about manufacturing
The National Government is walking away from our manufacturing sector with constant reports of closures and job losses. ...19 hours ago
- Release: David Parker speech – Piketty, Inequality and Climate Change
David Parker's speech from the University of Auckland's forum on Piketty, Inequality and Climate Change in September 2024. ...19 hours ago
- Release: Youth mental wellbeing no longer a priority for Child Poverty Minister
Louise Upston has revealed her diminished vision for vulnerable youth against a backdrop of snubbed advice, scrapped priorities, shifted goal posts and thousands more children projected to fall into poverty. ...20 hours ago
- Release: National’s lack of climate action taking NZ backwards
National Government’s backward-looking climate policy has seen New Zealand fall seven places on the Climate Change Performance Index to 41 out of 63 countries measured. ...21 hours ago
- Release: Simple reason for drop in emergency housing
When the Government says it has reduced the number of people in emergency housing, what it means is it is stopping people from accessing it in the first place. ...23 hours ago
- Govt’s child wellbeing strategy ‘shallow and shameful’
The Government is turning its back on children by not only weakening child poverty reduction targets, but also removing child mental wellbeing as a priority focus in their Child and Youth Wellbeing Strategy. ...24 hours ago
- Release: A historic win for Samoan communities
Labour warmly welcomes the Restoring Samoan Citizenship Bill as it passes its third reading, before becoming law. ...1 day ago
- Government plan to reinstate live animal exports a “national disgrace”
The Government has taken a giant step backwards by reinstating live animal exports. ...2 days ago
- Pasifika justice as Member’s Bill passes final reading
Teanau Tuiono’s Member’s Bill, the Citizenship (Western Samoa Restoration) Amendment Bill, has passed its third reading and will become law. ...2 days ago
- Release: Minister of Education thinks New Zealand ends at the Bombay Hills
The Minister of Education has shown complete disregard for rural communities and their school bus routes in Question Time today. ...2 days ago
- Economists sound alarm on Government’s slash-and-burn approach
A group of prominent economists has released an open letter to the Government, raising grave concerns about the far-reaching consequences of its fiscal policy. ...2 days ago
- Release: Smoking numbers up under Costello’s watch
National’s repeal of Labour’s smokefree legislation has taken New Zealand further away from achieving a Smokefree 2025 and a smokefree generation. ...2 days ago
- Release: Call for Palestine recognition by NZ, Australian and Canadian MPs
Parliamentarians from Australia, Canada and New Zealand have written an open letter to their respective Prime Ministers calling on them to recognise Palestine. ...2 days ago
- Justice Select Committee opens floor for Treaty Principles submissions
Today, the Justice Select Committee has decided to officially open submissions for the controversial Treaty Principles Bill. ...3 days ago
- Power of the people on full display as hīkoi approaches Parliament
Today, Hīkoi mō te Tiriti arrived in Wellington, with thousands gathering to march in unity against the divisive Treaty Principles Bill. ...3 days ago
- Hypocrisy as Te Whatu Ora contractor bill balloons
Te Whatu Ora’s bill for contracting and consulting staff has ballooned by nearly 20 percent under the National Government, breaking a promise they made during the election campaign to cut contractors. ...4 days ago
- Release: Growing pressure to scrap Section 7AA Repeal Bill
The newly released Section 7AA Repeal Bill's select committee report is further evidence that the Government should scrap it. ...5 days ago
- Government’s move to monetise access to nature a slippery slope
The Green Party is voicing serious concerns over the Government’s proposal to charge for access to public conservation land, released today. ...7 days ago
- Green Party condemns the passage of Treaty Principles Bill
The Green Party condemns the passing of the Treaty Principles Bill at first reading, and is clear that the fight is not over. ...1 week ago
- Stand Up for Te Tiriti
Te Tiriti o Waitangi is our country’s founding document. It forms the basis of the relationship between Māori and the Crown – and the Aotearoa New Zealand we live in today. ...1 week ago
- Release: Over 15,000 sign Labour’s open letter to Luxon
As the hīkoi to Parliament continues, Labour has sent an open letter to Prime Minister Christopher Luxon in a last-ditch attempt to get him to kill the Treaty Principles Bill. ...1 week ago
- Fast Track Bill threatens environment, climate and reputation
The fast-track legislation passing its second reading in Parliament is another step towards environmental ruin. ...1 week ago
- Greens join King’s Counsel in calling for Treaty Principles Bill to be abandoned
The Prime Minister must answer the call from a group of senior lawyers of the King’s Counsel to abandon the divisive Treaty Principles Bill. ...1 week ago
- Chris Hipkins’ apology statement to state and faith-based care survivors
...1 week ago
- Release: Labour formally apologises to state and faith-based care survivors
Labour joins with the Government in unreservedly apologising for the abuse, neglect and trauma including torture in state and faith-based care and for ignoring the voices of survivors for too long. ...1 week ago
- Green Party stands in support of survivors of abuse in care
Today, the Green Party stands alongside the survivors of abuse in state care and faith-based care as the Government issues an historic apology. ...1 week ago
- Green Party calls for conscience vote on Treaty Principles Bill
The Green Party has written to the Speaker of the House requesting he enable a personal vote on the Treaty Principles Bill. ...2 weeks ago
- Govt move to exclude journalist risks chilling effect
The Green Party is alarmed by the Government’s move to exclude a journalist from covering this week’s apology for the survivors of abuse in state and faith-based care. ...2 weeks ago
- Without action, an apology will be empty air
For tomorrow’s apology to survivors of abuse in state and faith-based care to hold any water, the Government must not pursue the same policies that drove the abuse in the first place. ...2 weeks ago
- Release: Concerns remain over tobacco interference
Concerns about the tobacco industry’s ability to interfere in government policy making remain, despite the inability of the Office of the Auditor-General to investigate the Government’s decision to halve the excise tax on heated tobacco products. ...2 weeks ago
- Urgent wake-up call on climate
The Climate Change Commission’s latest advice indicates Aotearoa needs to be stepping up on climate action. ...2 weeks ago
- Green MP’s Meme-ber’s Bill set to save the world
Break out the punchlines and dust off your meme folder: Green Party MP Kahurangi Carter’s Copyright (Parody and Satire) Amendment Bill was pulled from the Ballot yesterday. ...2 weeks ago
- Release: Poroporoaki: Ta Robert (Bom) Gillies
Kua hinga te manawa kairākau o Te Rua Tekau Ma Waru Tiwhatiwha te po! Kakarauru i te po! Ka rapuhia kei hea koe kua riro! Haere e te Ika a Whiro ki o tini hoa kua ngaro atu ki te Pō ...2 weeks ago
- Labour, Greens and Te Pāti Māori call on the Prime Minister to block the Treaty Principles Bill
The opposition parties stand united for an Aotearoa that honours Te Tiriti, rather than seeking to rewrite it. Labour, the Greens and Te Pāti Māori are working together against the Government’s divisive Treaty Principles Bill. ...2 weeks ago
- Release: Labour, Greens and Te Pāti Māori call on the Prime Minister to block the Treaty Principle...
The opposition parties stand united for an Aotearoa that honours Te Tiriti, rather than seeking to rewrite it. Labour, the Greens and Te Pāti Māori are working together against the Government’s divisive Treaty Principles Bill. ...2 weeks ago
- NZ must pursue independent foreign policy
The Green Party says the need is greater than ever for Aotearoa New Zealand to pursue an independent foreign policy. ...2 weeks ago
- Government action provides Southland farmers more time to meet plan requirements
The Government is taking action to ensure Southland farmers and growers are not affected by unreasonable regional farm plan deadlines, Agriculture Minister Todd McClay, Environment Minister Penny Simmonds and Associate Environment Minister Andrew Hoggard say.“Cabinet has agreed to provide more time for farmers and growers to comply with regional rules ...17 hours ago - Bill reaffirms Government’s commitment to crack down on serious youth offending
The Oranga Tamariki (Responding to Serious Youth Offending) Bill had its first reading at Parliament today. The Bill reaffirms the Government’s commitment to crack down on serious youth offending, Minister for Children Karen Chhour says. “In recent years we have seen an unacceptable spike in youth offending. “This Bill makes ...17 hours ago
- Critical milestones for earthquake buildings review
Fairer, more sensible rules about managing earthquake risks are a step closer with the passing of legislation and the appointment of an independent chair to provide expert advice, Minister for Building and Construction Chris Penk says. “The Government is committed to reinvigorating our cities and regions to support economic growth, ...18 hours ago
- State of the art radiology machine for Auckland
People in Northland and Auckland will benefit from a new machine for cancer treatment installed at the Regional Cancer and Blood Service at Auckland City Hospital. The MV5 linear accelerator, or LINAC machine, officially opened today targets cancer tumours with pinpoint accuracy. Health Minister Dr Shane Reti says this new, ...18 hours ago
- Foreign Minister to visit Europe
Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Minister Winston Peters will travel to Europe for high-level talks with France, Germany and the United Kingdom next week. "Since taking office almost a year ago, the Coalition Government has emphasised the importance we place on New Zealand's traditional and likeminded diplomatic and ...19 hours ago
- First arrests made under gang patch ban
Police have made their first arrests under the new gang patch legislation, with two gang members arrested, says Police Minister Mark Mitchell. “Just before 11 this morning, Police in Wairoa apprehended a gang member for wearing a patch to the supermarket. He has been arrested and will now face enforcement ...20 hours ago
- Better support for victims of sexual violence
The Government is proposing two major changes to name suppression laws that will put the views of victims of sexual violence first, Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith says. “We are committed to restoring law and order and these two proposed changes will help ensure the victims of crime are put at ...21 hours ago
- Government moving forward with Regional Deals
Cabinet has agreed to invite all regions to submit proposals for Regional Deals between central and local government that drive economic growth and deliver the infrastructure our country needs, Local Government Minister Simeon Brown and Infrastructure Minister Chris Bishop say. Inviting all regions to propose a Regional Deal that boosts ...21 hours ago
- MSA pilot participant update
One of the ten young men selected to participate in the Military-Style Academy Pilot has allegedly reoffended. Children’s Minister Karen Chhour is disappointed but says it would be naïve to think that none of these young men would reoffend. “I’m saddened that this young person has not taken this opportunity ...22 hours ago
- Fighting for Kiwis in Trade
Delivered at Auckland Trade and Economic Policy School Good morning and thank you Deputy Vice Chancellor Lithander for your warm welcome and for inviting me to open Auckland Trade and Economic Policy School today. A Special thanks to the University of Auckland, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade and ...23 hours ago
- Attendance rates increase, again
Associate Education Minister David Seymour says that school attendance is continuing to rise. In Term 3 of 2024 51.3 per cent of students attended school regularly, an increase of 5.3 percentage points from 46 per cent in Term 3 of 2023. “This Government has prioritised student attendance and it is ...24 hours ago
- Improving the lives of young New Zealanders
Ensuring New Zealand is the best place in the world for children and young people is the vision at the heart of the Government’s new Child and Youth Strategy, Child Poverty Reduction Minister Louise Upston says. “Childhood represents a huge opportunity to set people on a positive path towards living ...1 day ago
- Government continues work to reinstate livestock exports by sea
The Government is reinstating the trade of livestock exports by sea while ensuring the highest standards of animal welfare, says Associate Minister of Agriculture Andrew Hoggard.“The Government will introduce legislation changes to reinstate the trade, enhance oversight, and strengthen requirements for exporters to identify risks and manage the welfare of ...2 days ago
- Speech to the National Quality Forum 2024
Tēnā koutou katoa – it is a pleasure to be here today. I would like to begin by acknowledging the important leadership role you all play in ensuring a quality health system New Zealanders can trust. There is enormous clinical expertise in this room covering a wide range of disciplines. ...2 days ago
- New Zealand’s COP29 National Statement
Tēnā koutou katoa. Mr President, Excellencies, Delegates. New Zealand, and all nations represented here today, are already dealing with the impacts of climate change. Our households, businesses, and economies are bearing the costs of its effects. The choices we make now will shape the severity of these impacts for generations ...2 days ago
- Latest Quarterly Investment Report released
The Government has released its second Quarterly Investment Report (QIR) which shows substantial work still to be done by agencies to improve investment reporting and meet the Government’s expectations, Infrastructure and Acting Finance Minister Chris Bishop says. “New Zealand has significant infrastructure and investment needs. The Government is determined to get ...2 days ago
- New Zealand supporting loss and damage fund
Climate Change Minister Simon Watts announced New Zealand will contribute NZ$10 million to the new Fund for Responding to Loss and Damage while at the annual United Nations Climate Change Conference (COP29) in Baku, Azerbaijan. “New Zealand is joining the global effort to address the significant challenge of responding to ...2 days ago
- Gang crackdown begins at stroke of midnight
The free ride for gangs is over when the clock strikes midnight tonight, with tough new laws officially coming into effect, Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith and Police Minister Mark Mitchell say. “Gang patches will no longer be able to be worn in public. To earn the right to wear a ...2 days ago
- LGFA increases borrowing capacity to support high growth councils
The Government is welcoming the decision by the Local Government Funding Agency to increase access to financing tools for fast growing councils to support greater investment in critical infrastructure, Local Government Minister Simeon Brown says.“Communities across the country are facing an infrastructure deficit and significant population growth is projected in ...2 days ago
- Temporary Traffic Management costs revealed
The Government has revealed that over the past three years, the New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA) has spent an eyewatering $786 million of taxpayers’ money on road cones and temporary traffic management (TTM), Transport Minister Simeon Brown says.“When I became Minister, I was surprised to learn that that NZTA did ...2 days ago
- Jurisdiction of Disputes Tribunal to double
Legislation that will double the financial jurisdiction of the Disputes Tribunal from $30,000 to $60,000 has passed first reading in Parliament today, Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith. “We need to improve court timeliness and access to justice so that Kiwis and get on with their lives. Court delays affect everyone, the ...3 days ago
- Protecting New Zealand from foreign interference
Legislation that will specifically criminalise foreign interference and strengthen espionage offences has passed first reading in Parliament today, Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith says. “It is normal and appropriate for states to interact and work to influence one another. This encourages cooperation and can have mutually beneficial outcomes. “However, the reality ...3 days ago
- Significant milestone for Canterbury Road of National Significance
Transport Minister Simeon Brown has welcomed news that the NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) Board has approved funding towards pre-implementation and early works on the State Highway 1 (SH1) Belfast to Pegasus Motorway and Woodend Bypass Road of National Significance (RoNS). “Reaching this significant milestone is a reflection of our Government’s ...3 days ago
- Health survey results to help drive change
Health Minister Dr Shane Reti says findings from the annual Health Survey highlight the need to continue driving better health outcomes for New Zealanders. The New Zealand Health Survey is an annual snapshot of key metrics measured from July 2023 – July 2024. Findings released this morning include: In 2023/24, ...3 days ago
- Final push needed to get to Smokefree 2025
A renewed effort to get people to quit smoking will build on what has worked to date and target the groups who most need support, Associate Health Minister Casey Costello said today. “The latest New Zealand Health Survey results show the daily smoking rate at 6.9 per cent and we ...3 days ago
- New diplomatic appointments
Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters has announced four new diplomatic appointments. “Our diplomats play an important role in ensuring New Zealand’s interests are maintained and enhanced across the world,” Mr Peters says. “It is a pleasure to announce the appointment of these senior diplomats from the Ministry of Foreign ...3 days ago
- Next steps for Regulatory Standards Bill
Regulation Minister David Seymour has today announced the next steps in the Government’s plan improve the quality of regulation by opening consultation on a proposed Regulatory Standards Bill. “New Zealand's low wages can be blamed on low productivity, and low productivity can be blamed on poor regulation,” says Mr Seymour. ...3 days ago
- Red Tape Tipline goes live
Minister for Regulation David Seymour has today announced that the Ministry for Regulation’s Red Tape Tipline is now live. “We want to hear about your red tape horror stories. From today, New Zealanders will have a say on how they are regulated through an online portal,” says Mr Seymour. The ...3 days ago
- Youth Parliament 2025 announced
The Minister for Youth Matt Doocey has today announced the eleventh Youth Parliament will be taking place in 2025. “Youth Parliament offers a unique youth development opportunity to young people from across New Zealand to experience the political process and learn about how government works,” says Mr Doocey. “The two-day ...4 days ago
- Police stats show promising change
After nearly a year in Government, Kiwis have seen significant change across law and order with promising early results shown across some Police statistics, says Police Minister Mark Mitchell. “In August 2023, I told New Zealanders that if they had not started to see a change in public safety within ...4 days ago
- Better coordination of anti-scam efforts
With the launch of Fraud Awareness Week, the Government is committing to new coordination efforts across industry and government to combat online scams, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly says. “Online financial scams are a growing problem for New Zealand. New data released today shows that Kiwis lost nearly ...4 days ago
- Minister to consider 7AA select committee report
Minister for Children Karen Chhour will consider the recommendations made by the Social Services and Community Committee in its report back to Parliament on the Oranga Tamariki (Repeal of Section 7AA) Amendment Bill. “I want to thank the people who made submissions and those who appeared before the committee in ...4 days ago
- Defence Minister to attend ASEAN meeting
Defence Minister Judith Collins will this week attend the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN) Defence Ministers’ Meeting-Plus in Vientiane, Laos. “We need to take every opportunity to engage with our international partners, given the increasingly unstable geo-political situation,” Ms Collins says. “New Zealand has a long-standing commitment to this ...4 days ago
- Launching the White Ribbon Ride
The Minister for the Prevention of Family and Sexual Violence, Karen Chhour, was on hand to wish riders well at the start of the North Island leg of the White Ribbon Ride in Whakatāne this morning. The ride helps mark the International Day for the Elimination of Violence against Women, ...5 days ago
- Construction to begin on next stage of Papakura to Drury
Construction on the next stage of the SH1 Papakura to Drury project will begin early next month, with the contract for works awarded to Fulton Hogan, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. "SH1 Papakura to Drury is a key project that will drive economic growth and productivity, reduce congestion, and enable people ...6 days ago
- NZ signs trade deal with Costa Rica, Iceland and Switzerland
Trade and Agriculture Minister Todd McClay has signed a pioneering trade agreement that prioritises New Zealand’s sustainable exports at a ceremony during APEC in Peru today. “The Agreement on Trade and Sustainability (ACCTS), between Costa Rica, Iceland, and Switzerland was concluded in July of this year and opens up significant ...6 days ago
- Government and iwi work together on aquaculture
Five new Aquaculture Settlement Areas will help ensure Ngāi Tahu shares in the opportunities aquaculture offers for Southland’s economy, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones says. “The Aquaculture Settlement Areas (ASAs) I’m announcing today set aside space so the Crown and Ngāi Tahu can assess their potential for aquaculture development. ...7 days ago
- Government launches review to ensure electricity market is fit-for-purpose
The terms of reference for a review of the performance of the electricity market have been released. The review, initiated by the Coalition Government during the power crisis in winter will look at whether current regulations and market design support economic growth and access to reliable and affordable electricity, Energy Minister ...7 days ago
- Speech to Social Investment Hui: Jack and his whānau need our help
Kia ora koutou katoa. Nau mai, haere mai, piki mai. Ki te mihi atu ahau, ki te manwhenua nei, Te Atiawa, Ngāti toa rangatira, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou katoa. Thank you, Andy, for your introduction. Let me acknowledge you as the new Chief Executive of the Social Investment ...7 days ago
- Minister of State for Trade heads to Brisbane for PACER Plus meeting
Minister of State for Trade Nicola Grigg has travelled to Australia to attend the PACER Plus Ministers Meeting in Brisbane. “Trade plays a critical role in driving employment, economic growth, and improving the standards of living in the Pacific Region. The Government is strongly committed to supporting Pacific Island countries ...1 week ago
- RNA editing is the next frontier in gene therapy – here’s what you need to know
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Flora Hui, Research Fellow, Centre for Eye Research Australia and Honorary Fellow, Department of Surgery (Ophthalmology), The University of Melbourne IoanaB/Shutterstock The United States Food and Drug Administration has just approved the first-ever clinical trial that uses CRISPR-Cas13 RNA editing. Its ...1 hour ago - Yes, you still need to use sunscreen, despite what you’ve heard on TikTok
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Katie Lee, PhD Candidate, Dermatology Research Centre, The University of Queensland Karolina Grabowska/Pexels Summer is nearly here. But rather than getting out the sunscreen, some TikTokers are urging followers to chuck it out and go sunscreen-free. They claim it’s healthier ...1 hour ago
- Humans are killing off the old and wise animals that hold nature together. Here’s what must change
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Keller Kopf, Senior Lecturer in Ecology, Charles Darwin University Laxmikant Ameenagad, Shutterstock In humans and other animals, ageing is generally associated with a decline in biological function. But scientists are now discovering older animals perform vital roles in populations and ecosystems. ...1 hour ago
- A man scouring Google Earth found a mysterious scar in the Australian outback – and now scientists...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Matej Lipar, Adjunct Research Fellow, School of Earth and Planetary Sciences, Curtin University Author provided/Google Earth Earlier this year, a caver was poring over satellite images of the Nullarbor Plain when he came across something unexpected: an enormous, mysterious scar etched ...1 hour ago
- Design as a movement: how First Nations people take ownership of their cultural stories through fash...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Treena Clark, Chancellor’s Indigenous Research Fellow, Faculty of Design, Architecture and Building, University of Technology Sydney Once located 250 metres to the east of the Art Gallery of South Australia, the grand beaux-arts style Jubilee Exhibition Building was constructed to house the ...1 hour ago
- ‘We need more doctors’ – Support for new Waikato medical school
The Association of Salaried Medical Specialists says a third medical school and more students in Auckland and Otago are both needed. ...1 hour ago - Cricket balls can concuss and even kill batters – at all levels, helmet use must be taken seriousl...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Annette Greenhow, Assistant Professor, Faculty of Law, Bond University Linda George/Shutterstock The ten-year anniversary of the death of much-loved Australian cricketer Phillip Hughes falls on November 27. The 25-year-old’s life was tragically cut short in 2014 when a bouncer ...2 hours ago
- Hold the roosters, no economic dawn yet
Treasury likely to downgrade economic forecast while Chris Bishop says the government won’t be ‘a slave to a surplus’, writes Anna Rawhiti-Connell in this extract from The Bulletin. To receive The Bulletin in full each weekday, sign up here. Recession will be deeper and last longer — Treasury At a recent Spinoff ...2 hours ago - Knowing superstitions aren’t real doesn’t stop us behaving superstitiously – why?
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Stephanie Gomes-Ng, Senior Lecturer of Psychology, Auckland University of Technology Getty Images Former New Zealand prime minister John Key has three white rabbits painted on his helicopter, a nod to his “massively superstitious” habit of repeating “white rabbits” three times at ...3 hours ago
- Government slammed for pushing ahead with boot camps while trial still under way
The coalition has "absolutely no intention of listening to the evidence that comes out of their experiment", Labour MP says. ...4 hours ago
- Smoke and mirrors in tobacco debate
Labour claims Government is ‘cherry-picking’ smoking trends data to hide decade-first increase in daily smokers The post Smoke and mirrors in tobacco debate appeared first on Newsroom. ...4 hours ago - Smoke and mirrors in heated tobacco debate
Labour claims Government is ‘cherry-picking’ smoking trends data to hide decade-first increase in daily smokers The post Smoke and mirrors in heated tobacco debate appeared first on Newsroom. ...4 hours ago
- Treasury bangs the drum on ‘unsustainable’ superannuation
The Government’s economic adviser is sending a message it doesn’t want to hear – superannuation is increasingly unaffordable The post Treasury bangs the drum on ‘unsustainable’ superannuation appeared first on Newsroom. ...4 hours ago
- Victims of sex offending welcome shift on name suppression laws
A man abused by a former political figure is "immensely relieved" at a government proposal to end secrecy around sex offenders' identities. ...4 hours ago
- This week three parties stood together – can they withstand the storm to come?
There is plenty yet to play out, but the next election is at this rate shaping up as trio versus trio, writes Toby Manhire. A subplot of this week’s historic hīkoi mō te Tiriti has been the sight of the three opposition parties presenting a unified front. Te Pāti Māori ...5 hours ago
- All 33 malls in Auckland ranked from worst to best
From the low lows of abandon empires to the high highs of a mall done just right. This is the second in the Malls of New Zealand series, where we rank the malls in major centres. Next week: Wellington. A note from the editor: This is the hardest ranking we’ve ...5 hours ago
- The cost of being: A clothes-mad 20-something who walks everywhere
As part of our series exploring how New Zealanders live and our relationship with money, a 27-year-old apartment-dwelling marketing exec explains her approach to spending and saving. Want to be part of The Cost of Being? Fill out the questionnaire here. Gender: Female. Age: 27. Ethnicity: Pākehā. Role: Marketing exec at ...5 hours ago
- China likely to strengthen regional relationships in response to another Trump term
Opinion: Recent discussions in Shanghai provide some insight into what’s likely to be on the table The post China likely to strengthen regional relationships in response to another Trump term appeared first on Newsroom. ...5 hours ago
- Nuclear winters know no borders
Opinion: The immediate horror of nuclear weapon explosions – the blinding flash, crushing blast wave, and radioactive inferno – is well documented.But what nuclear-armed nations either don’t grasp or won’t admit, is far more chilling: how their weapons could devastate even countries thousands of kilometres from any mushroom clouds.The collapse ...5 hours ago
- This week’s bestselling books – November 22
FICTION1 Kāwai: Tree of Nourishment by Monty Soutar (David Bateman, $39.99)Sample dialogue, all from one chapter:“That can’t be,” replied Taona doubtfully.“You were right. The pā is unnervingly quiet,” Taona murmured.“The Hākuwai,” Motukia breathed. “Our grandfathers told us they rarely saw the Hākuwai in daylight,” Motukia muttered.“Their fight would have been futile ...5 hours ago
- Burma the flying elephant
After about two and a half years of planning and waiting, New Zealand’s last elephant has moved to her new home at Monarto Safari Park in South Australia.Burma and her “human herd”, that is, her keepers, arrived last week, and she’s settling in well, according to Auckland Zoo’s Andrew Coers.“Something ...5 hours ago
- NZ’s membership of Beyond Oil and Gas Alliance in jeopardy
Senior ministers in the coalition suggested NZ’s membership will be re-evaluated if it restarts offshore oil and gas drilling The post NZ’s membership of Beyond Oil and Gas Alliance in jeopardy appeared first on Newsroom. ...5 hours ago
- Raw Politics: Six months in a leaky Bill
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon did not meet the Treaty Principles Bill hikoi crowd, sees “nothing” of merit in the Act-proposed law but the Parliament his Government dominates will spend six months debating a “divisive” measure.That’s because he has accepted there needs to be “aeration” of people’s views on the Treaty, ...5 hours ago
- Taken to the brink, Govt is now close to selling big Whakapapa ski field
Bidder Whakapapa Holdings walked away from the sales process last year, but says it’s now ‘95% there’ on a purchase agreement – so who blinked first? The post Taken to the brink, Govt is now close to selling big Whakapapa ski field appeared first on Newsroom. ...5 hours ago
- Newsroom daily quiz, Friday 22 November
Loading…(function(i,s,o,g,r,a,m){var ql=document.querySelectorAll('A[data-quiz],DIV[data-quiz]'); if(ql){if(ql.length){for(var k=0;k<ql.length;k++){ql[k].id='quiz-embed-'+k;ql[k].href="javascript:var i=document.getElementById('quiz-embed-"+k+"');try{qz.startQuiz(i)}catch(e){i.start=1;i.style.cursor='wait';i.style.opacity='0.5'};void(0);"}}};i['QP']=r;i[r]=i[r]||function(){(i[r].q=i[r].q||[]).push(arguments)},i[r].l=1*new Date();a=s.createElement(o),m=s.getElementsByTagName(o)[0];a.async=1;a.src=g;m.parentNode.insertBefore(a,m)})(window,document,'script','https://take.quiz-maker.com/3012/CDN/quiz-embed-v1.js','qp');Got a good quiz question? Send Newsroom your questions.The post Newsroom daily quiz, Friday 22 November appeared first on Newsroom. ...5 hours ago
- Daily crossword, Friday 22 November
The post Daily crossword, Friday 22 November appeared first on Newsroom. ...5 hours ago
- Watts nears a landmark deal on global carbon trading
A framework for global carbon trading under the Paris Agreement is finally nearing completion at COP29 in Baku, Azerbaijan after years of halting talks.Climate Change Minister Simon Watts is one of two ministers tasked by the COP29 hosts with landing a long-sought deal on Article 6 of the climate accord, ...5 hours ago
- Grattan on Friday: Marles plays a defensive bat on nuclear as the government rushes to get though la...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle Grattan, Professorial Fellow, University of Canberra Richard Marles is an ambitious man who hasn’t given up the dream of one day reaching the top job. But, despite being deputy prime minister, his profile is much lower than that of Treasurer Jim ...10 hours ago
- Fears Māori will pay heaviest price if police carry guns
"Overwhelmingly, those people who die will be young Māori men," the spokesperson for People Against Prisons Aotearoa says. ...12 hours ago
- NEW POLL: Kiwis Overwhelmingly Support MPs’ Expenses Transparency Law Change
62% of respondents support the extension of the OIA to cover MPs’ spending, compared to just 13% opposed and 24% were unsure. ...12 hours ago - The House: Meanwhile, a week of passing law
The political week has been packed with worthy distractions, but all week Parliament has focused on passing new laws. Here are the highlights. ...13 hours ago
- The biggest difference between Hīkoi mō te Tiriti and past hīkoi: More support from non-Māori
Analysis - The diversity of voices during the hīkoi was noticeable - from tangata moana to young immigrants to elderly Pākehā from the South Island. ...13 hours ago
- The House: Samoan citizenship restoration – ‘It means we belong to this land’
When the bill to restore NZ citizenship to some Samoans passed this week, Parliament's galleries were full to the brim with members of the community. ...14 hours ago
- More Delays In Action On Use Of Puberty Blockers With Children
Women’s Rights Party Co-leader Jill Ovens says the Ministry has put New Zealand children at risk by continuing to allow “off-label” prescribing of puberty blockers at far higher rates than other similar countries. ...15 hours ago
- Police Minister adamant he wasn’t aware of gang members training at gun clubs
That is despite two papers from police that raised the matter with him. ...16 hours ago
- Shorten declares himself ‘a proud moderate’, saying Australians ‘in the middle’ shouldn’t ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle Grattan, Professorial Fellow, University of Canberra Bill Shorten has declared himself “a proud moderate” in a valedictory speech declaring parliament has the responsibility to ensure the extremes of left and right do not set the terms of political debate. Shorten, ...16 hours ago
- New ‘best practice’ principles for superannuation products are coming. We asked a panel of exper...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Matt Garrow, Editorial Web Developer Studio Romantic/Shutterstock We all know how important it is to save enough money for retirement – but what about spending it wisely when we get there? Even for those who have built up a suitable ...16 hours ago
- Government accused of betraying Kiwis’ trust over lack of consultation on live exports
The government has always vowed to reinstate live exports by sea, which was banned by the previous Labour government. ...16 hours ago
- 7 things you can do if you think you sweat too much
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michael Freeman, Associate Professor of Dermatology, Bond University ERIK Miheyeu/Shutterstock Sweating is our body’s way of cooling down, a bit like an internal air conditioner. When our core temperature rises (because it’s hot outside, or you’re exercising), sweat glands all ...17 hours ago
- Phenergan for under 6s is now banned due to hallucination fears. Here’s what to use instead
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Nial Wheate, Professor of Pharmaceutical Chemistry, Macquarie University Australia’s drug regulator has issued a safety warning over the medicine Phenergan and related products containing the antihistamine drug promethazine. The Therapeutic Goods Administration said the over-the-counter products should not be given to children ...17 hours ago
The server will be getting hardware changes this evening starting at 10pm NZDT.
The site will be off line for some hours.
So, housing,homelessness,and child poverty at home are not enough of a task!Lets annoy Australia instead to show what caring people we are.Very poor strategy re Manus Island refugees,and not supported by the majority of New Zealanders.This Govt,do not need an opposition to undermine them.
You don’t speak for the majority of New Zealanders. For one thing, your breath stinks of bigotry.
I’m guessing you do not know the definition of ‘bigot’.Look in a mirror and you will see one.
Is it “someone who invents false dichotomies in a failed attempt to excuse the obscene”?
Try’ a person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions’.You learned something today.
You made a false claim and invented a false binary choice, and in my considered opinion that has the whiff of bigotry about it.
I’m sure you’re a lovely fluffy gorgeous sweety bunnikins, but on this occasion you let some ugliness slip out, twinkle-breeches.
Thats merely your opinion,and not fact.Get outside,go for a walk,a swim even,you need some distraction from your futile obsession.
National offered the same thing Zorb6, to take in the Manus Refugees, Aussie refused Key’s offer, Key didn’t continue to pursue it. Nor did he make any worthy dent with NZ poverty and suffering, rather he quit being PM and happily accepted an award from the aussies and a knighthood via bill english. Meanwhile NZ suffering increased and refugees continuted to rot on Manus Island.
So here we have a new government, who are taking steps, made plans, taking action to ease poverty and suffering in NZ. A government that dosen’t like to see people suffering, so much so they offer help, when it’s turned down by aussie (due to power tripping and the lust for votes) our new government keeps offering it, such is their stamina, compassion and back bone.
Do we need to have a gauge on how much people are suffering before we help them?
Meanwhile it’s a beautiful day outside and I’m left wondering, what is Zorb doing today to help kiwis in poverty, those without a home, those suffering in NZ?
What are YOU doing to help those suffering in NZ? Or is voting enough?
Funny that those boats, which must first have started coming 4 years ago when Key offered sanctuary to 150 refugees, never got here. And only 4 have tried, apparently, in 4 years.
Remember the Howard govts lie about children being thrown overboard prior to an election
Yes. There are no sources given for these stories about boats headed for NZ, and no other detail, just ” news” items fed to the media. Fake news?
So keep making the same offer and keep getting the same answer=brilliant politics.There are millions of refugees around the world as you are well aware and rewarding this lot sends the wrong signals as the Aussies have stated.Zorb has enough on his plate ,working and paying his own rent as it is.
The Liberal Party is not “the Aussies”.
Your precious taxes won’t go up one cent to help the Liberal Party’s victims. I bet most of the refugees will end up paying more tax than you do anyway.
‘Zorb has enough on his plate, working and paying his own rent’ – as most people do zorb.
Excuses….as one finds time to comment repetitively on a political blog…
It’s ok, I understand, maybe you could take some time to understand that everyone is not the same, as you, or me, some need help, but it’s up to US if we help them, or make excuses while we help no one other than ourselves.
JS
to Zorb6 at 1 :Majority of New Zealanders??? Statistical proof please.
http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/shows/2017/11/poll-should-jacinda-ardern-bypass-australia-and-do-a-deal-directly-with-papua-new-guinea-to-take-150-refugees-from-manus-island.html
An unscientific poll known for its inaccuracy.
You really do have to do better.
Its the only one around atm.Sure there will be one coming that will reflect the majority view point.I may well be wrong,but I very much doubt it.As far as an opinion goes,I do not need to do better,at all.
https://theconversation.com/no-youre-not-entitled-to-your-opinion-9978
So, yes, you do need to do better in support of your opinion.
That’s just his opinion,and it relies on semantics.
So, you do need to be able to argue for your opinion using facts and logic.
Your problem is that you’re basing you argument on a poll that has no viability and that makes your entire argument invalid. You could actually be right but we don’t know because you don’t have any facts to back up what you say.
Not to mention that the poll asks whether Ardern should “bypass” Australia, not whether they support the actions she’s actually taken, or whether we should take refugees.
‘Unscientific Poll’
Not a good choice of words
Self-selecting polls such as the one Zorb6 linked to start from a narrower audience – Shub readers – and can easily be distorted by eg: people casting multiple votes: I just voted again to make sure it can still be done. Just delete your cookies and go for it.
I daresay someone who was so inclined could even set up a script to do just that.
Regardless of our economy,we have always taken refugees.
Services that people need is what should be provided to NZ you say. Why? Because it is right and people should be treated fairly throughout the world. It’s very hard to do that, there are constant drops in quality of care. But to keep trying is our task in life. So don’t tell us not to care about others at all Zorb6. You are a mean one.
It’s my observation that those who use the argument that we need to look after the poor in NZ before ‘others’ usually have little empathy for either i.e. they don’t have a history of speeking up for the former but often have a lot to say about why it’s not a good idea to help the latter.
Ha, yes.
“I’m not going to give $10 to him, he’ll just go and spend it on booze”…..which is exactly what I was going to spend it on.
Agree wholeheartedly
Hardly conclusive evidence of anything.Going by the report of the NZ security officer who has direct experience of dealing with the Manus refugees,we definately don’t want them.
So according to your rules, what does that make the guard?
An eyewitness.
Nope. By your rules, his unsupported unproven allegations are true of 100% of the Liberal Party’s victims.
Therefore, by the same rules, the proven allegations against the other human rights violation camp guards apply to him too.
You’re out of your depth.
If I’m out of my depth you drowned long ago.The man is an eyewitness,that is irrefutable.The credibility of his observations can be challenged but not by you .
Anonymous Kiwi Ian from Australia is your “source”. You have no idea whether he’s an eyewitness or not.
If his allegations are true, why haven’t the authorities in PNG issued 600 arrest warrants?
#fullofholes
So, housing,homelessness,and child poverty at home are not enough of a task!Lets annoy Australia instead to show what caring people we are
Its not an either or. Plenty of work is being done on alleviating poverty.
A question of priorities then.
Governments, amazingly enough, can do more than one thing at a time. Extend paid parental leave, enact equal pay legislation, reduce housing market speculation, make Bill English assume his ultimate form, and put pressure on the Liberal Party.
One small step for a government, too difficult for Zorb6.
Can you point to your outrage when Key first suggested this 4 years ago and last offered it last year?
It is odd that making these offers opens us up to visits by boats cos with the first offer made 4 years ago they are taking a long time to get here.
Is this why Key just rolled over as kiwis in Oz got treated worse and worse cos Australia intercepts so many boats on our behalf???
Agree. What a total cluster****. J Arden..not my PM.
“Green right”, eh.
This is not a smart play by the government. It’s hard enough getting benefits for New Zealanders in Australia. I don’t see how this so called principled stand will make it any easier.
It’s really cutting off your nose to spite half a million New Zealanders
Where would you draw the line? You prepared to tolerate torture and concentration camps; how far does the Liberal Party have to go before you’ll stop wringing your hands?
Is it a line that needs drawing? We’ve stuck our noses into Australian territorial security issues and we’re surprised they are pushing back? No question it’s a humanitarian issue but it’s naive to believe everyone is going to fall into line because we say we’re about the politics of caring and kindness.
Strategically the government needs to sit back and consider whether this is worth falling out with the Turnbull government over so early in their term. As pointed out, we have broader issues at stake with the erosion of the rights of NZers living in Australia. Stirring up the waters on unrelated matters is surely a bit shortsighted. This is realpolitik rather than values now.
The Liberal Party has already started going after New Zealanders who live there. Get off your knees.
“Torture and concentration camp” overeggs it. I agree they’re not holiday camps either; these people should never have been left in this place for so long. In that respect Dutton really has fucked up, and now just walking away and dumping the problem on PNG is no better.
But there are 65m other refugees in the world right now and I’d hazard a guess many of them are living in conditions not a lot different to Manus Is; in many cases a lot worse. This is part of a much bigger problem that’s beyond the capacity of either Australia or NZ to solve on our own.
Just for a sense of scale, 65m is a bit more than the generally accepted 63m death toll for the whole of WW2. And no-one thinks it’s going to get better anytime before it gets a whole lot worse.
Of course Manus Is sits squarely in the context of the ‘boat people’ issue that has for more than a decade torn Australian politics into shreds. It’s an ugly, brutal problem …. and short of simply declaring the Australian borders open for all who care to arrive … no-one but no-one has suggested any ‘good and humane’ solution to this specific question.
If you or anyone else has a better answer, I’d sincerely love to hear it. But just hopping up and down yelling ‘torture camp’ doesn’t cut mustard.
Human rights violation camps if you prefer.
The Liberal Party’s attitude to this isn’t about finding solutions it’s about appealing to the worst demons of our nature, for personal gain.
If your neighbour of many years, with whom you had shared business interests, behaved this way would you just shut your doors and wait for the screams to die down?
No. I’ve personally stepped into a few such incidents over the years. It was the right thing to do, but you never get any thanks for it.
Especially not from a government that treats NZer’s living in Australia as hostages – or at least, that’s what’s being implied with the suggestion they will suffer for Ardern doing “the right thing”.
I agree, 600,000 Myanmar nationals have been forced from their burned villages into camps over the Bangladesh border. The Rohingya people aren’t accused of rape, they’ve watched their mothers sisters, wives, daughters being raped. Their loved ones have been brutally murdered and maimed, everything they possess burned to the ground. They aren’t able to magic up 2 years income to pass onto criminal people smugglers.
There are over half a million a bit further North of Manus Island that have more pressing needs. Trying to make a difference in the world by welcoming refugees is a futile token solution. We must help them where they live.
http://www.unhcr.org/news/briefing/2017/11/5a0eb2b74/home-made-rafts-arriving-myanmar-refugee-population-density-soaring.html
The Tasman Sea is formidable but far from impenetrable. Boat smugglers have been mucking around in ramshackle vessels for generations. Kupe made several voyages to NZ 700 years ago without a scrap of metal in his boat or GPS on his phone. We sail similar replicas around the pacific, hand-made in a bloke’s shed.
Boat smugglers don’t sell a seat on a boat, they sell hope. They care little for the dangers their customers face. I fear a glimpse of opportunity in NZ could see us having to make some much harder decisions.
The Aust government are concerned about undesirables backdooring into Aussie via NZ. If we vet and welcome Manus Island refugees I think it’s possible that in response Australia may move towards requiring all NZers to undergo a visa application process prior to visiting Australia.
QFT
I’m fine with that – just so long as the Australians are fine with having to do the same thing when they come here.
“I’m fine with that – just so long as the Australians are fine with having to do the same thing when they come here.”
Yeah I hear you Draco, but it runs against my grain. On the grand scale I think we stand a better chance of doing better if we build bridges rather than walls.
We are building bridges that will connect us to the rest of the world not just to scabby Australia with their ranting white voices. What a shocker it is to see the proud Australian warrior turn into a mean money counter
when running the country,
I remember when Nancy Wake came to Australia to live she joined the conservative party and they used her to get publicity but wouldn’t give her an electorate she could win. Now there was a proud woman who would have brought their profile up in Oz (of course she was part NZ too).
But they were still into white Australia policies then, now it’s anyone who wasn’t transported early on. All the later arrivals are dodgy.
To put it in scale ~65m is 0.001% of the ~7.6 billion in the world ATM.
~65m sounds like a lot but, in the vast scheme of things, it’s pretty much meaningless.
There is a much bigger problem – world over-population. Of course, that’s not the reason for these refugees which also needs to be addressed but it is certainly a concern for where the refugees want to go. We certainly can’t take them all in ourselves and many other nations can’t either.
All of them working together might be able to do something. All of them working together may be able to do something about the cause of refugees as well but the nations don’t seem to want to do that either.
” … 65m is 0.001% of the ~7.6 billion …”
A few zeroes and decimal point in odd places there. But yeah, even at 1%, still just a rounding error in the context of world over-population.
Isn’t 65m about 1% of 7.6 billion?
5 to 6 billon of us are living on less than $2 a day.
Yes stats are important. Say there are a lot of dead bodies after a battle, mass killing, natural disaster, and they have to be taken to the side of the road ready for transport. Then they get piled neatly heads together in groups of 20, then the piles get counted and a figure for the situation is easily estimated and pass on to the authorities concerned with keeping track. Children should be placed by apparent parents but laid so that their heads are all together, and children should have a separate count.
This type of objectivity is not helpful when thinking about the living and needy. That is why United Nations workers like David Shearer can be so dismissive of living people’s needs. Their perceptions have been brutalised.
5 to 6 billion of us are living on less than $2 a day.
Your worldview needs an update.
If you increase the amount to $2.50/day the figure is about 3 billion.
Not that this is “good” – but at least it’s improving, no?
Its a wee bit like climate change non arguments imo – ‘its too hard, its too big, we’re too small, it wont make a difference anyway’… sadly both refugee and climate change are tightly interlinked – if we dont do something now we aren’t just condeming others to misery, we are condeming ourselves.
Well. We can’t make much of a dent, but we can make some difference.
But the best way to stop refugees is to stop supporting Governments that impoverish, bomb their countries and/or install repressive dictatorships,
I draw the line at meaningless offers designed to antagonise our allies. Australia takes more refugees per capita than New zealand and spends more. If they won’t take these 150 men, whose refugees status is questionable at best, who is jacinda to come white knighting on their behalf?
dying in the ditch over an issue that’s only a humanitarian crises in the eyes of The Australian governments opponents is pointless. ask yourself, why were the rest of Manus island refugees resettled in Aussie and not these ones?
But go on, push for your “humanitarian” option. The majority of New Zealanders can see that the 150 men are completely undesirable
If they won’t take these 150 men, whose refugees status is questionable at best, who is jacinda to come white knighting on their behalf?
More to the point: if they won’t take these 150 men, who are they to play Dog in the Manger when someone else offers to?
That’s a specious argument. if New Zealand is apparently holding its head so highly over the matter, why are we demanding that Australia hand over the dregs at the bottom of the barrel? I know in some circles it’s the highest form of pontificating, but when you’ve got to sell the notion to the New Zealand public?
Discounting them as racist, the inevitable answer, will show to voters that the government doesn’t care about the views of common New Zealanders or their brethren in Australia. But pursue it. See where it gets you
Why do you have to call people “dregs”?
Oh, because if they were normal human beings, not helping them would be unjustifiable. And offering help when others refuse to becomes the act of a normal human being, rather than some sort of political point scoring.
It worries me the language Tuppence Shrewsbury uses.
Dregs sounds mighty like ‘untermensch’.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Untermensch
I suppose that’s the difference between a nazi and an ordinary tory jerk.
I suspect tuppence just likes to write off individuals in need as a pretext to avoid helping them, rather than having any wider belief system.
Nice try you too. I know this cause makes you feel even worthier than any other cause du jour, but having a hard line on the Manus 150 is not the same as having a no refugee’s policy.
they aren’t genuine refugees and they got caught by a change in Australian domestic policy and their histories ruled them out of being able to reside under any visa in Australia. That is Australia’s choice
“they aren’t genuine refugees”
If they weren’t before (which the overwhelming majority probably were), they are now.
the remaining 150 aren’t. their circumstances haven’t changed. they tried to jump the queue at the expense of genuine refugees and got caught. The rest were and have obviously been resettled
Wow – queue-jumpers and not genuine. Each and every one, eh? Gosh. Based on the word of the same folks who already have a history of lying about refugees for political gain.
Paedophiles? rapists? murderers? oh sorry, shall we call them the unfortunates?
Unfortunately they chose to be on the wrong side of australian policy and their past caught up with too. Their behaviour on manus, regardless of the fact they are detained there, is deplorable.
Not helping them is entirely justifiable. Some people are deserving of help despite their past, others behave as if helping them is their right regardless of their behaviour.
It’s interesting watching the die hard supporters of refugee’s die in the ditch over this. It’s making the argument against refugee resettlement overall in New Zealand that much stronger, trying to defend a position on these 150 men that is close to indefensible.
Genuine refugee’s are deserving of our help. this lot don’t fall into that category.
Radio-Television Libre des Mille Collines called. They want their script back.
don’t throw the baby overboard with the bathwater, mate
You will never get benefits there, but you will get them here..this is the difference you have choice, refugees don ‘t in this case.
Yes, what was Key thinking making multiple offers in the last 4 years when Oz must have told him they were holding off an avalanche of boat people for us.
Kinda funny to see all these fans of TPP not wanting to be part of the world when it comes to refugees. We didnt take syrians cos “not our part of the world”. Now we wont take refugees from our backyard cos the Aussies say no.
Can you list benefits for NZers we have got from Oz in the last 5 years?
Refugees have nothing to do with benefits in Australia, they Australian govt has it rules and if you don’t like it don’t go there.
From where I’m sitting, she’s achieving nothing, antagonising the Aussies and embarrassing herself very publicly.
A.
She’s antagonised Peter Dutton. I’m not sure he’s representative of Australians but.
This will be a face-saving compromise for the Australian government, whatever it means to the Liberal Party.
From where you’re sitting, it’s embarrassing to stand up for human rights? Good to know.
You have to be able to make your feelings known on one issue, without damaging the wider relationship. That is of the essence of diplomacy, and failure to do so is the embarrassment.
A.
The wider relationship? The ugly characters running Australia have been egregiously mistreating NZ citizens for several years now – if that hasn’t “damaged the wider relationship,” why would anyone get their knickers in a knot over this? There’s nothing embarrassing about doing the right thing, and the only embarrassing diplomatic failure of ours re Australia in recent times is that no-one in government has called out that closet Gauleiter Dutton for the racist fuck he is.
Bra bloody vo!
We havent pushed back on the aussies much at all and their response? Pat our heads and erode kiwi rights in Oz.
Two different issues.Is this Manus Island position known as ‘virtue signalling’?If it is, it serves no useful purpose.Making bleeding hearts’ feel virtuous has no place in this issue.
In the context of the comment it was replying to, very much the same issue: what might damage the NZ/Aus relationship.
Is this Manus Island position known as ‘virtue signalling’?If it is, it serves no useful purpose.
Good job it’s actually about getting 150 human beings out of Australian detention centres then, eh?
No its not actually.If there are 6-700,what makes 150 worthy?You tell me.
I agree. We should take the lot. 150 is a half-arsed layover from the nats, who only made the offer safe in the knowledge the aussies would reject it.
You have a point – we should have ditched Key’s original offer and asked for all of them. There’s no point in conducting a lottery.
It’s kind of an accidental point though, in that you’re actually using a “perfect is the enemy of the good” argument to try and claim that helping no-one is better than helping 150 people.
On that basis,maybe you could adopt one.
Helping people should be a matter of personal charity rather than societal responsibility? You’d fit right in with ACT, but few here are going to have the patience for that kind of bullshit.
Charity begins at home. Russell Crowe offerred to find accommodation and jobs for 6.
Whereas you’ve offered to help no-one and that’s the moral of your story.
Who have you offered to help OAB?No one at all.You are just a handwringing cheerleader for people you know nothing about ,who tried to enter Australia illegally.No doubt the 6-700 will be 4 times that after taking into account repatriation of partners and children.
oh noes, nz will be flooded with 2800 rapists, thieves, murderers, and non-genuine, queue-jumping refugees, and not even some of them will be nice people!
That must cost the government almost as much as a tory asset sale.
Or as Key and Brownlee call it, rolling over and having your tummy rubbed in the hope a crumb will fall from the table.
Saying our piece behind closed doors has
A. Not changed the treatment of Manus Islanders
B. Not changed how Australia treats NZers in Oz (arguable made it worse)
Can someone list the benefits accruing to kiwis on OZ when we used quiet diplomacy to express our views?
She has stood by NZ traditional values, and that is not to be scoffed at regardless of your own opinion regarding taking the Manus Island refugees. Do we want a world where all govts just put people into life long detention and leave them there?
This is in our part of the world RL. It is not helpful to this to quote the total number of refugees in the world. We have some in this part of the world/ Australia is in a bind.
It is the victim of its own preferential voting system and we should take note of what Mickysavage says about that when voting systems are being discussed for change in the future. Remember how the hard-liners can vote for their own wacky person and party and then get a second bite going to another party that has the right stench about it. With preferential we would never get rid of ACT I think.
And+ to Delia 3.3 and Pat 4 and marty mars all over, good thoughts.
Not the Aussies I know. They are embarrassed by their countries indifference to human rights.
This is the Liberal party appealing to rabid right wing racist swing voters.
The Hooward govts campaign version of -they throw children overboard –
Despite getting support from the UN.
Shes a hard row to hoe when youre coping flak from all sides….but I think Jacinda Adern has demonstrated she has the leadership qualities to deal with this….would be nice (though unexpected) if she were allowed to get on with the job and be judged by results.
If Labour were as kind and caring as they claim to be why are they pushing through the CP(TPP)? There are thousands of Kiwi’s who are living in grim conditions, in cars, on the street, etc. Much of this can be contributed to the ruthless capitalism started in the 80’s and continued till today. This so called deal is yet a more vicious continuation of this pro capitalist neo liberal policy and will no doubt make things even worse again for many people.
Much as I sympathise with the plight of these people Labour can’t do the right thing on one hand and the wrong thing on another (CPTPPA) and expect people to applaud.
Actually that is exactly what they can do – this is called politics, not – do it sparkys way.
Well if you enjoy being in the opposition Marty I suppose you could always do as you like? And its not “my way” its the feeling of a good number of left wing voters who expected better of Labour when it comes to the TPP and I’m pretty sure they know it too.
I simply saying it is impossible imo for any political party to aligh 100% with someone – they will always disappoint. This is the way of politics.
QFT
Still, I’m not really sure if offering to take the refugees is the right thing either.
Not miracle workers, it will take years to undo the National damage machine, we still have international refugee obligations. By the way the Labour of 1985, is not the Labour of today. I may as well blame Key for all the damage Muldoon did to NZ causing it to be bankrupted and hence the reforms of the Labour govt 1985.
Yes so why pursue the TPP deal Delia? If they want to undo the Nats damage you refer to not amplify it?
When I heard the news that Australia had turned back 4 boats that were headed here I knew it was dirty politics at play. I read it as Australia trying to look like the honourable one trying to help us, and that we should be grateful. very sneaky indeed.
Good post. Keep at it Jacinda and labour. The dirty bastards don’t like the light shown on this horrendous situation and the vile spin from some aussies. Keep focusing on alleviating suffering for the poor people.
Give this debate to Kelvin Davis, he can handle it!! NOT!
He’s an embarresment.
National needs better trolls. Your inability to spell embarrassment is an embarresment.
Yep Bob even spelt his name the wrong way round too lol
He’s brand new – give him a chance. He clearly needs some support around him when acting as PM, and it’s a pity that he was left in this situation just a few weeks into the job, but that was unavoidable. I’m not saying he handled the public things like Question Time well – he didn’t, but there are other parts of the job that he may be doing a lot better. You don’t know and neither do I. I’m reserving judgement for a while.
Ardern is in a tough situation. Those who criticise her should clearly say what they would do and how it would help, remembering:
1) This is our neighbourhood,
2) We are a prosperous, peaceful country,
3) Offering to help one group of people doesn’t mean you care less about others or do less for them (NZ homeless, NZ poor, NZers living in Aussie…),
4) She has offered interim help (money for immediate needs) as well as long-term help (sanctuary for 150 people approved after our usual screening processes),
5) The Labour-led government has also committed to doubling our annual intake of refugees and using a range of means to help our Pacific neighbours affected by climate change.
I’d say she’s getting it about right. We’ve helped out like this before, when Australia was in a slightly more reasonable mood. The US isn’t going to open its arms any time soon, and in the meantime we have people stuck in a dreadful situation (and that includes the citizens of Manus Island, who have had their homeland turned into a prison camp).
+11
+100
Kia kaha Prime Minister.
You are right on.
Where are the domestic policies. It costs 1m to settle each refugee I use previous quoted numbers.
That is 2 and bit affordable home for our own poverty stricken people.
When did you ever lift a finger to help anyone anyway.
Tuesday last week
Perhaps our poverty stricken people should sail to other better countries if it is so hopeless here! When you are forced to move you do.
I don’t know if NZs have enough energy and determination. The strugglers have not voted for something better for the last 9 years. There is a welfare system here, and probably they could do lots better than they are now by uniting, having friendly groups that help each other and enable each other. But I know from experience how hard it is to get anything co-operative going, many have no spirit. Instead they say what about us, and expect people to jump out of the woodwork.
It is part of the cost of living in a connected world. You reckon no money or help came from overseas post chchch earthquake?
Some background on what Australia will ‘sink’ to over boat people:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_Overboard_affair
2001 –
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3WJ10xGkas
Immigration Minister Philip Ruddock announced that passengers of SIEV 4 had threatened to throw children overboard. This claim was later repeated by other senior government ministers including Defence Minister Peter Reith and Prime Minister Howard….
Although reports indicated that the strain of being towed was the proximate cause of the asylum seeker boat eventually sinking,[3] Australian Prime Minister John Howard asserted that the asylum seeke
https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/how-children-overboard-lie-developed
https://www.safecom.org.au/kids-overboard.htm
http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-opinion/reith-rewrites-history-to-hide-the-shame-of-children-overboard-lie-20120831-255u3.html
http://www.smh.com.au/national/the-boat-that-changed-it-all-20110819-1j2o2.html
In my opinion Labour should sit back now and monitor developments vis a vis the Manus island refugees.
Jacinda has raised the issue; made an offer; prodded the Australian ‘bear’ and pushed activism and diplomacy to the limit on this point. She can currently claim the moral high ground with some dignity.
Going beyond where things presently sit creates a very high risk of retaliatory action by the Australian government that will be detrimental to many New Zealanders. Possible retaliatory action, such as maybe needing visa’s to travel from NZ to Australia, would likely create a backlash against Labour here. New Zealanders, whilst generally sympathetic to the plight of refugees, will not willingly give up their hard won rights (i.e visa free travel to Australia for example) to improve the rights of Manus island refugees.
Jacinda has made the point; the offer is on the table, I suggest she let it lie there for now and see what happens.
It would be good if visas were introduced to Australia and vice versa. Then perhaps people could visit the Cook Islands etc. Go where they really need the money to Samoa and Tonga also. A lot of our tourists come from Australia, okay that would be less, but we have them coming out of our ears. What we need to do is get more money out of long-staying tourists.
I’m still struggling to analyse why people would want to go to Australia…
Spiders, snakes, sharks, and that’s just the politicians.
Jum
Clearly your analysis is very limited.
The ties between NZ and Australia are strong, varied and complex.
Take one such tie – family connections. There are tens of thousands of NZders and Australians who are co joined through marriage or long term relationships and family in general. Consider the the impact of restrictive border controls on them by way of example. This group of NZ/Aust citizens won’t thank NZ Labour if Labour stirs things up sufficiently to the point that Australia takes steps to restrict movements between the two countries. Nor will they willingly concede their ‘rights’ for the ‘rights’ of Manus Island refugees, if this is a potential outcome.
New Zealanders in Australia are already treated as second class citizens. To protect their remaining interests, we should use ‘soft’ power to weaken the Liberal Party.
Or accept that the Liberal Party will use them as human shields.
Clearly Grantoc you don’t recognise humour when you read it.
Anne I did actually – but I was making a serious point and so was in that space.
LOL
It is only racism, that we do not have the same freedom of movement, between New Zealand and the Pacific Islands.
We owe Samoa and Tonga given our recent past. Also, I am sure some “white” Kiwi’s wouldn’t mind retiring to the islands.
And definitely Australia’s dislike of Brown hued Kiwi’s that drives their more recent clamp downs on New Zealanders.
”The chances of boats making it all the way to New Zealand are remote. New Zealand’s isolation makes us a very unlikely target.”
one wonders if that’s why we get to play high and mighty on this,
if the gov was serious wouldn’t they offer to take them all on the proviso that they can’t use nz as a back door to aussie.
“if the gov was serious wouldn’t they offer to take them all…”
Do we offer to take all refugees from any other zone of suffering? We’ve offered to take a number we believe we can handle – there’s a lot of support work needed when resettling a refugee.
“…on the proviso that they can’t use nz as a back door to aussie.”
And how would we do that? Write a special law, listing each individual and saying that they can access all rights of NZ citizenship except the right to travel to Australia with the intention of settling there? I don’t think it’s possible for a democratic government (as opposed to a totalitarian state) to limit the rights of its citizens to settle in another state. The only way those rights can be limited is by the other state withdrawing the right to settle in their country.
It’s a complicated situation. Ardern is juggling a lot of competing concerns. I think it’s to her credit that she’s keen to help in practical ways, and trying to be flexible about how that help is delivered.
”And how would we do that? Write a special law, listing each individual and saying that they can access all rights of NZ citizenship except the right to travel to Australia with the intention of settling there? ”
if i was from a shit house country and had the chance to live in a not so shit house country , i would gladly accept citizenship on the proviso that i waved the right to move to another country.
as for writing laws , i fought thats what govments do like
Whereas this would be us changing our laws so as to appease racists.
Not. Going. To. Happen.
“as for writing laws , i fought thats what govments do like”
No constitutional democracy can stop its citizens from emigrating and settling in another country. It’s. Not. Possible. If you fought it was, you hadn’t fought about it much. Maybe you need to fink a bit harder.
Thee only government that can stop someone from settling in one particular country is the country that’s receiving (or declining) the settler. That’s one of the complications here – supporting the refugees whilst not pissing off Australia to the point that they limit the right of Kiwis to settle over there. At present, under CER, we have reciprocal open borders.
If the Liberal Party goes down that road, and the Aussies don’t reverse the policy at the next election, I think we should retaliate by doing nothing.
Make it plain to Australian citizens that they’re welcome to settle here and enjoy the benefits of living in a social democracy, that our tertiary institutions are open to them, that we value them and their talents.
I wouldn’t even support asking them about their connection to the Liberal Party.
Ain’t no way we’re going to create a second-class citizen category just to appease Australian racists. Australia has the means to identify NZers it doesn’t want in Australia and to prevent them travelling there – that covers it off nicely.
I doubt these refugees will want to go to Australia after being treated worse than criminals, by the Australian Government..
Yes, there are large tracts of interior bushland in Northland occupied by folk that would welcome a family of damp visiting folk on their doorstep with welcome arms. The boat in Grey’s last link, that vessel looks up to trans Tasman passage.
Most of us would welcome them in, offer a dry change of clothes and a feed. Then some of us would ring immigration, others John Campbell. Are South-east Asian people smugglers likely to see and share Checkpoint via utube? Of course, niche viral with a subtitle pulled through. A free brochure.
I think we need to tread lightly or we could very quickly find we’re having to make much heavier duty decisions.
Obviously there are many that disagree with me and that’s cool but I can’t get away from thinking that we need to choose the families we offer breaks to. I can see letting new New Zealanders self select via who has the money and bravado to sail as contrary and harmful to the good nature of the gesture.
I take it you would have turned back the refugees in 1938 to 1945, also!
They didn’t float in on a boat that they bored holes through 25m offshore. There’s no turning around a sinking boat.
Playing ‘Whatabout’ becomes ping pong and diminishes the quality of any debate.
I think your send a frigate to get them argument is strong KJ, it’s a curly situation.
I think our new Government is doing the right things on this one.
The only extra they could do is send a frigate direct to PNG, with the agreement of the PNG Government, to pick the refugees up.
That’s a great idea KJT. It would also enable the refugees to begin adjusting to kiwi styles during the voyage to NZ, before they go through transition centre in Akld. Gosh they could even send some refugee admin people/interpreters (not sure what they are called) to help them with paper work and such, onboard, saving time on arrival.
There’s good food on those frigates and good people. The crew would be viewed as ‘rescuers’ by the refugees and some wonderful relationships would develop, everyone would learn something new. And it’s good training for our Navy.
Yeah that’s a fantastic idea KJT, send a frigate to pick them up please and thank you.
Al Jazeera are covering the Manus Island situation rather extensively
“Australia’s government says the 600 men have been offered alternative accommodation elsewhere on Manus Island, but the refugees say it is not safe from locals who want to do them harm. Many asylum seekers have been attacked in the past by Papuans who do not want them on the island.”
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/11/australians-rally-barricaded-refugees-manus-171104110852638.html
“Under the American deal, struck with previous US President Barack Obama and bitterly criticised by his successor Donald Trump, just 54 refugees have been accepted, with 24 flown to the US.”
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/11/australia-rejects-zealands-offer-refugees-171105105929593.html
“Papua New Guinea’s immigration minister has told Al Jazeera that Australia must “immediately facilitate” a New Zealand offer to take 150 refugees formerly detained in an Australian prison camp on its Manus Island.”
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/11/australia-pressured-resettle-stranded-refugees-171105171742290.html
Video clip just over 2mins long, worth watching on the first and third links
Go for it Jacinda, this is a huge vote loser already. Read the Herald today? The majority of kiwis don’t want this, but then, what Labour leader ever listens to what the majority wants? Very much out of step with New Zealanders, apart from all the backtracking of pre-election promises, lol. I do feel Sir Richard Prebble (one term govt) will be proven right! Shambles so far, in every possible way. Oh, the arrogance. Student politics inflicted upon our once fair nation. Thanks for that legacy, Winston, but it will be au revoir come 2020 (or less).
This is the way it works. You do the allegedly unpopular things in the first year of your first term. Like National privatising our stuff or attacking human rights, for example.
Then you do a bunch of more popular things, like extending paid parental leave, and enabling citizens to sue for equal pay – sending a strong message to employers to get their shit together. You increase the minimum wage above the rate of inflation.
You stop overseas speculation in the domestic housing market. You address massive underfunding in the health & education sectors. You make Double Dipton reveal his true character.
By the time three years have rolled around, everyone’s forgotten that you poked the Liberal Party in the eye and upset a few locals.
It’s good to see you’re keeping your hopes alive though. Don’t give up.
That’s a second term strategy.
When your objective is to attack human rights and the rule of law, maybe. Increasing citizen’s pay-packets, not so much. That, my little bundle of malice, wins support 🙂
The majority of kiwis don’t want this, but then, what Labour leader ever listens to what the majority wants?
She’s reminding Australia of an offer made in 2013 by a certain Rt Hon John Key, now forgotten but at one time a National Party MP and Prime Minister of New Zealand. As I recall, no catastrophic vote loss ensued.
Tanz,
Any poster that quotes Dick Prebble has no right to any listening audience.
Sir Richard Prebble? I missed that. When did he get knighted?
Or is Tanz @17 still immersed in her alternative reality?
Prebble should be knighted, for his service to the county under the Lange govt, for helping to fix Muldoon’s muck-ups and for having represented Act, who should take him on as leader again, would be a winner for 2020. National will get a single party majority by then anyway (they are only 3 per cent from that now), and will be able to govern alone, for a very long time, sending this unmandated three headed hydra govt into Oppostion for a long long time! That’s if Winston doesn’t pull the pin first. With him, anything can and will happen! In the meantime, wish he’d tell Jacinda to stop badgering the Aussies, they are getting seriously agitated. Arrogance much.
😆
You’re going to be so disappointed in 2020.
Labour are backing out of most of their pre-election promises already,
Grant’s fiscal hole has been proven and Jacinda is making NZ look very silly already. If I could I would stake money on it, – they will not last three years. I know several Green and NZ First voters who are already having buyers remorse. Why is okay for Labour to promise oodles pre-election and then back out of promise after promise? Is this not just mere bribery for votes? One term govt, National are right though, they dodged a bullet. Winston is now the very silent partner, funny that…still think he preferred National (just makes more sense – biggest polling party and more stable coalition,- but they would not sell their souls for power. Bennett basically said that in Parliament last week.),
Good for them, kudos with the voters, especially as it goes pear shaped, which it has from day one. There is no honeymoon, unless you are part of the left wing media lapdogs. So comical, but watch as NZ is forced into a recession, and National had us in stellar position, it’s all gonna get blasted away. There is a reason more people voted for National than Labour and the Greens combined!
Quick, there’s a straw! Clutch at it!
Sorry Anne
‘Anne 13.2.1.2
18 November 2017 at 4:06 pm
Clearly Grantoc you don’t recognise humour when you read it.’
I was being a little bit humorous, but really, if any of us seriously believe Australia gives a damn about NZ and NZers then they’ve caught the NAtz bug.
Aussies treat the Aboriginal people like scum, they treat the Kiwi people like scum and they have rupert murdoch who is scum.
If Kiwis are so greedy they want to disappear over to Austraaaaaaaliaaaaaaaa when they can earn more money and then come rushing back to NZ when they’re facing a bit of financial difficulty why should I be in the slightest bit interested.
We’re being sold a pot ful of tripe by the Aussies, who are found to be bigoted, more racist than we are, and not telling the truth about the support NZ gives to australia, over many years now, in protecting the shores of australia and New Zealand from greedy human traffickers.
Wanna interest me; get rid of the greed from both shores and start treating all people like human beings. Across the world we are dealing with despots and huge international corporates, hellbent on destroying anything good about humanity.
I’m not sure, at this stage, who’s winning.
Oh I couldn’t agree more Jum. There are lots of exceptions, but still the majority of Aussies are a racist and bigoted bunch of ignoramuses.
On the whole I’ve found Australian’s pretty much the same as Kiwis. The big difference is that they tend to be more upfront about what they’re thinking, they rarely leave you in any doubt as to where you stand with them.
Kiwis may well find this a bit unsettling, but interpreting it as meaning they’re all bigoted and racist isn’t justified. Indeed given they just managed a landslide vote in support of SSM I don’t think it’s justified at all.
(Indeed the biggest ‘no vote’ areas came from suburbs in West Sydney and Nth Melbourne dominated by non-white Australians.)
The longer I live here the more irksome I find this smug kiwi attitude that somehow kiwis are better people than aussies.
Or anywhere else for that matter; the past decade or so I’ve had the privilege of living and working in Israel, Australia, Singapore, India, Russia, Canada, Laos, Philippines, Colombia, Mongolia and Mexico. All very different places with massively different cultures. There are aspects of all of these places I both liked and disliked, sometimes quite intensely. But I find that people the world over share far more in common than in difference; it just depends on what you choose to pay attention to.
but how do you kill a conversation dead if you cant chuck the racism word at people trying to understand ? which is the far lefts favorite ploy
You mean the “dead cat” strategy? I can’t think of anyone from the Centre Right who ever employed it. Not a single one.
it’s expected from them , the bar should be higher for your side
So which is it? The “Far Left”, or everyone left of centre? Last time I checked, the “Far Left” aren’t in parliament. Unless you can point to any Marxists or Maoists in the Beehive, that is.
in nz terms the far left is the greens , not very thrilling but i’m happy with it that way
You can link to someone from the Greens employing a ‘dead cat’ strategy, or are you talking about them criticising actual racism?
more there supporters chucking the word racism around, you seem to have a huge supply of dead cats , hmm are you working for gareth
You think my description of the Liberal Party as racists is intended to shut down debate? Rubbish. Our close political and economic ally has enacted xenophobic human rights abuses and it’s our duty to respond to it.
Redlogix @18.1.1
I have to confess that my response was based on interactions with Australians (I lived in Perth for a while) a long time ago. I made some good friends and a few of them continued to be friends after I returned to NZ. But overall, I found them bombastic and quite rude. Since that time the social climate has probably changed enormously and maybe its time for me to change my views as they are likely to be out of date. 🙂
I found them bombastic and quite rude
Exactly … they do speak their mind more directly and with less concern for your feelings as a rule. But once I learnt to expect this I started to find it more honest and easier to work with as a rule. Indeed they expect it back as well; if you start hedging and qualifying all the time Aussies find this a bit sus.
And now that almost 25% of the population was not born in Australia, they’ve become a lot more diverse as well.
Another subtle difference; we feel safer here. While Aus can do really big awful crime just like anywhere else, in most places there just isn’t the ongoing level of petty crime, aggro and tension that’s so common in NZ. Especially in smaller regional towns there is an incredibly relaxed, open friendliness everywhere we go.
The one thing I really hate about the place … they’re some of the worst tail-gaters on the planet. 🙂
http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018621621/don-t-take-them-warning-from-a-former-manus-island-guard
If this is accurate, then we should not even be wasting time vetting these people.
If it is accurate… yup that’s exactly it. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ accurancy comes in many forms $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Baba Yaga I disagree: we need to know a lot more about Ian to assess his involvement in this ongoing human rights violation.
+ 100%
‘Ian’ is not the only one talking.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/98972615/australian-intelligence-leak-on-manus-island-details-allegations-of-underage-sex-crimes
You have two completely unverifiable stories from the people with the massive conflicts of interest and a track record of telling lies about refugees.
Well that’s sure convinced me of something, but it doesn’t cast you in a very good light.
What verifiable information have you seen that vouches for the integrity of the detainees regarding their testimony on conditions and events on Manus?
1. Theirs isn’t the only testimony.
2. The fact that the Australian government just offered them $70 million dollars in compensation.
Neither of which says anything about the integrity of the detainees.
Yawn. Zorb6 was dribbling about “the integrity of the detainees regarding their testimony on conditions and events on Manus“.
Get a life.
And your response did not address his question. That there have been human rights violations (the reason for the compensation) does not mean the inhabitants of Manus are telling the truth.
Holy shifting goalposts. You originally stated there are two security guards making claims against the detainees and now all you are saying is there is no proof the detainees are telling the truth.
“You originally stated there are two security guards making claims…”
I think you’re confusing me with someone else. I have only quoted one guard.
“…and now all you are saying is there is no proof the detainees are telling the truth.”
No. I was challenging the idea that being offered compensation for human rights abuses proved you told the truth about other matters. That’s an absurdity.
“You have two completely unverifiable stories from the people with the massive conflicts of interest and a track record of telling lies about refugees.”
No, what we have is eye witness accounts from what appear to be reliable sources.
If you think anonymous Ian is a reliable source, that’s on you. Meanwhile, on Earth, a face-saving backdown from the Liberal Party.
Apparently their “intelligence leak” isn’t a reliable enough screening process. Or perhaps it was just another bunch of lies from the people who’ve been caught lying over and over again on this very issue…
In any event, it looks like the Prime Minister has achieved a major victory, and yes yes I know you disagree with that very very hard, and I couldn’t give a shit what you “think”.
Weep and wail for me, but not so loud you can’t hear the laughter.
There is no victory in accepting these people into NZ. None. And you might want to check the comments underneath the article you linked to. There is much to admire about Ardern, but this isn’t amongst it.
Uh, duh-uh, the obligation to look after refugees isn’t predicated on there being a benefit to your country from it. In fact, that’s pretty much excluded as a criterion.
And no, I wouldn’t want to check the comments under the Stuff article – I get all the ugly shit opinions I can cope with from mud-wrestling the grumpy old White men on Kiwiblog.
” the obligation to look after refugees isn’t predicated on there being a benefit to your country from it. ”
I didn’t claim it was. It is my opinion, however, that people to whom we offer refuge should show their gratitude by being good citizens. The folk on Manus are off to a very bad start, and are hardly the sort of citizens we want in this country.
You aren’t the sort of citizen I want in this country.
“You aren’t the sort of citizen I want in this country.”
You don’t know anything about me. The Manus Island inhabitants are illegal migrants who are alleged to have committed some pretty heinous crimes. That you would even want them in NZ says a lot more about you.
We know more than enough about you from your comments here. Not anonymous allegations with political benefit, your own words.
“We know more than enough about you from your comments here. ”
No, you don’t. All you know is that I want NZ safe for NZ’ers. Not illegal migrants who commit horrendous crimes. This isn’t a political issue, it is simply common sense.
Well, with respect, we also know that you’re a self-absorbed idiot who’se happy to excuse massive abuse and religiously recites a 1980s economic catechsim that most NZers have rejected (going by the ACT poll results).
“happy to excuse massive abuse…”
Evidence please.
” and religiously recites a 1980s economic catechsim that most NZers have rejected (going by the ACT poll results).”
You mean giving low paid more of their own money in their hand?
…which then gets taken back immediately in GST.
There’s nothing I can (or want to, to be serious) do about your right to pollute this country with this rote-learned filth, but I’m sure as hell going to do my utmost to stop it having any effect whatsoever on our existing immigration and refugee (or any other) laws.
99.5% of voters agree.
“…which then gets taken back immediately in GST.”
What I’m proposing has not impact on the amount of GST paid. None. I had thought you had some understanding of these matters.
Evidence supplied.
No, the idea that you’ll think they’ll be better off with tax cuts rather than a more equitable society. If you said the tax cuts for the poor should be more than matched by tax increases for the rich, you might come across as less of a prick.
“Evidence supplied.”
For what?
“No, the idea that you’ll think they’ll be better off with tax cuts rather than a more equitable society.”
Tax cuts for low income earners will lead to a more equitable society, because they will have more money in their hand, and be less dependent on state support.
“If you said the tax cuts for the poor should be more than matched by tax increases for the rich, you might come across as less of a prick.”
Your thinking really is 1970’s. This isn’t about pitching people against each other, although you seem hell bent on framing it with your own virtue signalling. I want people on low incomes to have more money in their hands, not be state dependents. My thinking is mainstream, yours is archaic.
I want people on low incomes to have more money in their hands
Lifting wages is a good way to do it, and for that we’ll need some government intervention in the market, chiefly in the area of employment law, but also involving minimum wage rises and benefit increases.
These are going to happen no matter how much you can parrot the 0.5% party’s deeply held beliefs.
i bet if you lock up any large group in a single sex environment you will get ill behaviour , it’s not an excuse to not help them,
It happens in boarding schools, the military, hostels, frat houses and prisons.
The “but there are criminals amongst them” is a nasty argument- a clever but loathsome ploy.
At least John Key, with his refugee background, understood this when he issued his invitation.
What has changed, apart from the politics of the critics, now that NZ’s 2017 PM has done the same thing?
Rupert Murdoch and Channel Nine haven’t changed that’s for sures $$$$$ owning the narrative spinning it which ever way favours the tory government
Do they even have a government over there in aussie?
Actually, yes it is. It goes to the character of the individuals. There are many more deserving cases, I’m sure.
Meanwhile those on Manus continue to suffer and have their mental health destroyed among other things, due to people turning a blind eye because they don’t know how to deal with the situation.
Awesome solution Baba.. not !!
What happens to those on Manus then Baba? How desperate will they get? How angry will the locals get?
No-ones turning a blind eye, but I’d suggest there is a lot of virtue signalling going on here. There are many people across the world in need; we can’t help them all, so let’s at least ensure we help those who have the best chance of being returning something to our communities when we welcome them in.
What? We should accept refugees that will pay us back? Why not set up a people smuggling operation while we’re at it?
“We should accept refugees that will pay us back? ”
I didn’t say ‘pay us back’. I said ‘returning something to our communities’. Like obeying our laws. Being peace abiding. Not being a financial drain on our society.
And that is a completely reasonable expectation.
I realise that dividing people into “deserving” and “undeserving” is a core centre-right “value”, but I don’t have much truck with it.
Governments of all stripes have made such distinctions for decades, however you choose to characterise it. It’s called ‘vetting’.
It’s time for your reality check:
During vetting, the character assessment criteria are that people can be turned down because they:
So nothing about returning something to the community then.
“So nothing about returning something to the community then.”
You’re confusing two streams. Vetting is distinguishing ‘deserving and underserving’ (your words). ‘Returning something to our communities’ (my words) is something I am saying SHOULD be an expectation. I didn’t relate the two.
It’s called ‘vetting’.
You’ve finally admitted a truth. That’s precisely what the NZ government plans to do – vet them. In fact I read somewhere the NZ vetting process has already started. And the sooner the better because it means NZ will be able select ‘the best candidates’ to bring to NZ.
You’re a fake Baba boy.You know perfectly well that the normal processes for accepting refugees applies just as much in this case as in any other. And who are you to declare they are all “undeserving” refugees. Have you been there? Have you spoken to them? No.
“Have you been there? Have you spoken to them?”
No, but I don’t need to have visited the headquarters of the mongrel mob to know I wouldn’t want them living next door to me.
That settles it then: they should be moved into your house and you can find somewhere else to live, so that they don’t have to endure you as a neighbour.
“That settles it then: they should be moved into your house and you can find somewhere else to live, so that they don’t have to endure you as a neighbour”
Or…even better…the Manus Island ‘refugees’ can come and live with you!
I’m sure some of them may indeed end up settling in my neighbourhood*. I won’t give it a moment’s thought.
You, on the other hand, will want some way to identify them. Got any ideas?
*Edit: unless they decide to move en masse to Australia, that is. In which case you should make sure you point them out to Peter Dutton.
“You, on the other hand, will want some way to identify them. Got any ideas?”
I’m sure they’ll make themselves known.
Here’s a good piece by John Armstrong…have a read…it tells of some more deserving causes.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11945367
Oh very wise and far seeing Mr Yaga.
@Anne’In fact I read somewhere the NZ vetting process has already started. And the sooner the better because it means NZ will be able select ‘the best candidates’ to bring to NZ.’Is that called getting ahead of yourself?
No we can’t help them all but we can help the ones that are closest.
I’d happily have them living next door, having felt the love, warmth and gratefullness of refugees before.
Don’t even start sowing seeds by comparing them to living next door to a gang, that’s just spinning lies and mistruths in order to justify your own position on a topic you obviously have no personal experience with.
Is it your fear of the unknown which holds you back in your own life Baba? You’ll never know or reach your own potential if you are afraid.
“Don’t even start sowing seeds by comparing them to living next door to a gang, ”
It’s a valid comparison.
Remember that not all of the inhabitants of Manus are/were genuine refugees. They are seeking to enter Australia illegally, to cue jump over legitimate refugees who are prepared to go through the proper channels.
The remaining men on Manus, the ones our PM wants to assimilate into our society, have been described as follows:
“The people who have transitioned out to the community, quite possibly not a problem – but the ones that remain would be a major issue.
“They are fearing for their safety for a very good reason, they are the ones that have caused all the problems in the local community.”
He said guards wore cameras which recorded violence, threats and verbal assault, and he was in charge of documenting it before passing it to authorities, along with a “mountain of paperwork”.
“These people are hiding their criminality behind loss of documentation, and if she continues to push the issue I would not be surprised if Malcolm Turnbull slammed the door on New Zealand.”
http://thewireless.co.nz/articles/criminals-torture-and-the-long-wait-on-manus-island
Yes there have been human rights abuses on Manus, no denying it. But these people are rat-bags, and I for one don’t want them in my country.
Such a load of bullshit here it is difficult to know where to start!
Firstly at least 90% of those detained illegally by Australia on Manus Island have been assessed as being Refugees. Secondly under the UN Convention for Refugees (which Australia signed in 1954 BTW) these people were Asylum Seekers and as such were not attempting to enter Australia illegally.*
The people who are committing the criminality are the Australian Government.
*
http://unhcr.org.ua/en/who-we-help/2011-08-26-06-55-36/368-protecting-refugees-faq
“Firstly at least 90% of those detained illegally by Australia on Manus Island have been assessed as being Refugees.”
You’ve exaggerated the figures in your own reference. The article says ‘almost’ not at least’.
The number is actually 87.7%, meaning 12.3% haven’t. How many of the 150 are in the 12.3%?
“Secondly under the UN Convention for Refugees (which Australia signed in 1954 BTW) these people were Asylum Seekers and as such were not attempting to enter Australia illegally.*
The people who are committing the criminality are the Australian Government.”
You seem to be asserting they are genuine ‘refugees’, having in the previous sentence admitted 10% (a figure you got wrong) weren’t!
How many of the 150 are in the 12.3%?
Gezz your thick!
The answer is frigging obvious!
None
Why? because they would not be refugees. Those who are not assessed as refugee status may be returned to the country of origin – or if stateless to a country that will accept them.
Now as to the figure of around 90% assessed – you will have noted that that that figure was over a year ago and the PNG govt was still in the process of assessing the claims of further asylum seekers. So over 1 year ago just under 90% had been assessed as genuine refugees and I am sure that that figure would be even more. In fact bearing in mind the way the Australian Government has persecuted the whole lot of them, they should all be granted asylum as refugees from Australia.
“The answer is frigging obvious! None Why? because they would not be refugees. ”
Effectively what you are saying is ‘they must be refugees because they aren’t illegals. They aren’t illegals because then they would be not be refugees.’
I think it’s called circular reasoning. Or rank stupidity.
🙄
Having a degree in logic, mathematics, and philosophy I understand completely what constitutes a circular argument – which is more than can be said for you.
Let me explain it in tiny little steps.
People fleeing from their country of origin (Iraq, Pakistan, Iran, etc) had passed through Indonesia (which although allowing them some solace from reduced threats of murder and violence to their persons) provided them with next to nothing nor opportunity to find gainful employment. So they then sort to find Asylum in Australia which they understood to be a signatory of the UN Convention of Refugees. Being apprehended on a boat from Indonesia was their mistake and they were transported to Manus Island where the PNG authorities along with the UN investigated their claim to refugee status. Now almost all of those remaining on Manus Island have been assessed to be genuine refugees. They are technically no longer asylum seekers they are refugees. I would imagine that the few who were not assessed as needing refuge by the authorities would have been returned to their country of origin – as happens here and elsewhere around the world.
So when in June 2016 the authorities had assessed 87% of those then present on Manus Island as being genuine refugees (well over 150) – with still more to be assessed; NZ’s offer to take 150 refugees would be well filled before anyone of doubtful status was considered! Indeed once an Asylum seeker had been assessed as not being genuine they would have been removed and sent back to where ever they came from. You insincere angst is patently of little consequence.
Now as to the severe problems that many of these men are now exhibiting, I request you to imagine placing yourself in their shoes. You have escaped from a country where you have likely been tortured, discriminated, abused, threatened with your life, witnessed abuses to your family and friends, and have little prospect of surviving if you were to be returned. This is the facts of life of those who seek refuge in another country.* These were the facts of life of almost all of those now detained on Manus Island – these facts have been verified by the authorities so they are not subject to dispute. Almost all refugee men have experienced abuse of one form or another and are fearful for their life. It is not inconceivable that they then almost without fail suffer from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Placing such vulnerable souls in a detention centre is hardly the prescribed treatment for such a health issue, and indeed is highly likely to exacerbate the condition rather than relieve it. Your so called expert “Ian” is hardly the ideal person to be place in charge of the care of such distressed persons.
*
Just one story
and there are millions more like it.
http://stories.unhcr.org/refugees
“Having a degree in logic, mathematics, and philosophy I understand completely what constitutes a circular argument …”
Then what possessed you to fall into the trap?
The rest of your post is muddled nonsense. On one hand you claim all the inhabitants of Manus were/are refugees, then you state “in June 2016 the authorities had assessed 87% of those then present on Manus Island as being genuine refugees”.
The point you so conveniently overlook is that Australia run a very real risk of being overrun by these ‘refugees’, illegals or whatever else you want to call them. It’s all very well advocating for NZ to welcome these people from the comfort of a secure home in PtChev. It is a very different matter entirely welcoming these people. You just don’t get it.
Oh dear! What a pity you are unable to distinguish between asylum seekers and refugees.
To make it easier for you, consider the case of a family forced from their home in Syria by war and bombing.
1. They are now “displaced persons”, and they will remain displaced persons until such time as they reach the boarder of Jordan (or which ever country the are fleeing too).
2. Then they become “Asylum seekers” ( around 1 million people a year seek asylum). As an asylum seeker they tell their story to the authorities in the country that they are now in, and are then assessed both by the country and the UNHCR as to their status. *
3. If their story stacks up, and it is considered that it would be prejudicial to their safety were they to be returned to their country of origin, they are then classified as genuine “refugees” a status that allows them to stay in the country where they have sort asylum, and where their basic human rights are protected, and they can then work towards a more longer term solution.
In general parlance the generic term “Refugee” is applied to all of these three phases, however such a liberal use can cause much confusion – particularly in small minds such as yours.
I hope the above (and the links to the UNHCR) will be of benefit to you.
* Actually in the case of mass migrations of people across borders – such as in the case of war it is not always possible or necessary to conduct individual interviews with every asylum seeker who crosses a border. These groups are often called ‘prima facie’ refugees.
As of Dec 2014 there were around 1.8 million people still awaiting a decision on their Asylum claims.
“What a pity you are unable to distinguish between asylum seekers and refugees.”
I know the difference. You used the expression refugees on both occasions. Here. I’ll quote from your post:
“Now almost all of those remaining on Manus Island have been assessed to be genuine refugees. They are technically no longer asylum seekers they are refugees.” and “I would imagine that the few who were not assessed as needing refuge by the authorities would have been returned to their country of origin”
then
“So when in June 2016 the authorities had assessed 87% of those then present on Manus Island as being genuine refugees ”
Your post was muddled nonsense.
!!!!
🙄
Clearly your comprehension skills are sadly lacking…
But I see this has been pointed out to you before.
Your faux angst at any suggestion of receiving any refugees from Manus belies your true motivations here.
You may continue to
protesttroll – however I will leave the “discussion” . I am sure that the casual reader can determine where the truth of the matter lies – and it is cleary not within your lies.“I am sure that the casual reader can determine where the truth of the matter lies”
I’m sure the casual observer will see through your intellectual snobbery and realise you stuffed up.
“And if they prefer to stay on manus, imagine how bad home is.”
Indeed. That is the problem for so many refugees. We simply can’t help them all.
If they’re not legitimate refugees, they can’t queue jump over legitimate refugees. They’re in a different queue altogether.
“If they’re not legitimate refugees, they can’t queue jump over legitimate refugees. They’re in a different queue altogether.”
But they’re trying to. That’s the point. And Australia is stopping them. So should we.
No, we shouldn’t. None of your rote-learned arguments have any validity.
You are showing your naivety. As is our PM.
The point is that you should make up your mind as to why we shouldn’t help these specific people, when it’s well within our power to do so. Are they legitimate refugees jumping the refugee queue (which isn’t actually possible, but whatevs), or are they something other than refugees and therefore in a different queue altogether?
At least pick a lie and stick with it, rather than choosing lies that undermine each other.
“The point is that you should make up your mind as to why we shouldn’t help these specific people”
https://thestandard.org.nz/arderns-manus-island-offer/#comment-1415923
You are showing your ability to parrot right wing talking points and argue in circles, and you seem to think this is clever and profound.
In the meantime, all you’re actually doing is revealing your inability to think for yourself.
I know you aren’t going to stop. When you earn another ban, you’ll come back with another changed name and continue to regurgitate this tired dull script.
We need better wingnuts.
And if that was a reliable report, would wouldn’t have needed to parrot contradictory lies about queue jumping people in another queue entirely.
“And if that was a reliable report, would wouldn’t have needed to parrot contradictory lies about queue jumping people in another queue entirely.”
Having two lines of argument is not a sin, McFlock. You’re struggling with coming up with one!
“You are showing your ability to parrot right wing talking points …”
From eye witness accounts? Right wing talking points?
You having two lines of argument that contradict each other means I need only point out that you’re obviously making shit up.
All you ever needed was one decent, reliable argument as to why we should leave these people to suffer.
Non-genuine-queue-jumpers cancel each other out.
NZ employee of detention camp operator that abused refugees is unreliable and probably has a massive conflict of interest. I note “Ian” is happy to break Australian law and talk about abuses in the camp when it makes the refugees look bad, but the way his role was portrayed he would have been complicit in documenting the abuse of prisoners in the camp. Did he speak out about those abuses? If not, why not? If he’s telling the truth, you might have a decent reason to withhold asylum (therefore no queue to jump). but he’s unreliable.
“You having two lines of argument that contradict each other …”
They don’t.
“All you ever needed was one decent, reliable argument as to why we should leave these people to suffer.”
There are more deserving cases. People who aren’t criminals. There we are.
“NZ employee of detention camp operator that abused refugees is unreliable and probably has a massive conflict of interest.”
Neither. And his account is not the only one I have referenced.
“If he’s telling the truth, you might have a decent reason to withhold asylum (therefore no queue to jump). but he’s unreliable.”
12.3% are not refugees, so they ARE queue jumpers.
So 87.7% are refugees, and using a legitimate method to claim asylum and are therefore not queue jumpers.
And 12.3% are not refugees, so are not in a refugee queue at all, and cannot be queue jumpers because they’re not in that queue.
So we should bring over the 90-odd% who are refugees, and put the rest in the standard immigration queue. What we shouldn’t do is leave them to suffer.
“So we should bring over the 90-odd% who are refugees…”
My understanding is those (or most) have already been resettled. But in principal, I agree.
“…and put the rest in the standard immigration queue.”
NO! Not if the information in the public domain about those remaining is anything to go by.
The ones we look at will all be assessed for refugee status. If they don’t meet the threshhold, then they go into the immigration line. If they are as bad as the Australian-government-sanctions rumours suggest, they won’t meet the immigration test and they won’t get in. But they will be fairly considered.
And if not all the “legitimate” refugees have been happily resettled (rather than “abandoned”), then that way they can come over as refugees and we won’t leave them to slip through the cracks.
It’s pretty simple. No need to get your knickers in a twist.
Baba Yaga has carnal knowledge of sheep.
There, it’s in the public domain.
“The ones we look at will all be assessed for refugee status. ”
Let’s not waste out time on them. There are many more deserving cases.
It harms nobody to make sure of that.
You’re not perfect, Australia’s not perfect, “Ian” (the guy who documented camp abuses without publicising them until it was convenient for the aussies) definitely isn’t perfect. Let’s just make sure that some innocent people haven’t slipped through the cracks before we decide to leave them to suffer. If we decide to do that.
“Let’s just make sure that some innocent people haven’t slipped through the cracks before we decide to leave them to suffer.”
McGlock that is not an unreasonable position, I agree. I’m not sure I share your confidence in the vetting process.
Would you rather an imperfect system err on the side of accidentally letting a few bad eggs in, or would you rather it err on leaving innocent people to suffer alongside those bad eggs?
“Would you rather an imperfect system err on the side of accidentally letting a few bad eggs in, or would you rather it err on leaving innocent people to suffer alongside those bad eggs?”
I’d rather an imperfect system focus it’s attention on a people group with less risk.
How do you know the relative risk without an impartial assessment? The Aussies and their camp guards have a massive incentive to as biased as fuck on this issue.
And the risk should be balanced against need and one’s ability to immediately mitigate that need if they are deemed worthy of assistance.
“How do you know the relative risk without an impartial assessment? ”
By considering the behaviour of people.
Shouldn’t we evaluate every potential refugee on a case-by-case basis, rather than simply making assumptions based on our own cynicism?
“Shouldn’t we evaluate every potential refugee on a case-by-case basis…”
Not necessarily. If they’ve been involved in the activities reported on Manus, then we want no part of them.
And by the way, they are being told to leave. If things are so bad there, they need to head back home.
https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/world/police-storm-manus-island-camp-and-demand-refugees-to-leave/ar-BBFvXbd?ocid=spartandhp
So we can judge them together if we know each individual was involved in alleged actions of members of the group? How would we know that?
And if they prefer to stay on manus, imagine how bad home is.
We can help the ones on Manus – within hours or days. We should.
You missed this bit:
I’m really interested in how you think we should determine that a manus island prisoner was “involved in the activities reported” without eveluating them on a case by case basis.
“We can help the ones on Manus – within hours or days. We should.”
No, we shouldn’t. There is enough information to give them a very wide berth.
As I said, it harms nobody and costs little to make sure that the “children overboard” crowd haven’t been telling lies again.
” it harms nobody and costs little”
You don’t know that. Remember the kiwi’s deported from Australia that Kelvin Davis supported? One third went on the reoffend here in NZ. I don’t trust the government at all on this issue.
They were NZ citizens deported from aus because of their criminal history (and had a recidivism rate of half that of NZ prison system graduates). We couldn’t turn them away, even if we wanted to.
I’m saying that we should look at each of the detainees and see whether they should get asylum. If the aussie camp commandants are right and these are awful people, they won’t qualify for asylum. But the aussies have a history of blatant lies and saying mothers throw their own children into the water, so I sure trust the aussies a lot less than I trust NZ immigration officials.
“We couldn’t turn them away, even if we wanted to.”
That didn’t mean Kelvin had to behave like a fanboy.
“I’m saying that we should look at each of the detainees and see whether they should get asylum. ”
And I’m saying I don’t think it’s worth the effort with this group.
Kelvin Davis stood up for NZers being abused by the australian government. That’s part of his job.
And you might be happy to write off groups of people to leave them to suffer, but that is a tendency of your political leaning.
“Kelvin Davis stood up for NZers being abused by the australian government. ”
They weren’t being abused, they were criminals, who had lost any right to citizenship.
Actually, they still had every right to NZ citizenship. Hence Kelvin Davis’ involvement.
“Actually, they still had every right to NZ citizenship. Hence Kelvin Davis’ involvement.”
Kelvin Davis was involved because he is soft of criminals. It follows him around.
So he was accidentally doing his job of helping NZ citizens who were being detained without trial, then.
Try to focus: he was a NZ MP, looking out for NZ citizens. That’s. His. Job.
So to recap: you think we shouldn’t help anyone detained illegally by the aussies because you personally believe they are all bad people. Onya, mate.
“So he was accidentally doing his job of helping NZ citizens who were being detained without trial, then. ”
No, he was poking his nose into another countries sovereign right to remove criminals from their communities.
They were NZ citizens being detained without trial. In fact, they were being detained because they were NZ citiziens – if they were Aussies in their paperwork, they’d have been free.
“They were NZ citizens being detained without trial.”
They were NZ citizens of whom 1 in 3 have reoffended since being sent back to NZ. Keep digging McFlock.
How does that contradict what I wrote?
They were NZ citizens held without trial.
Two thirds of them have not committed any criminal offence since coming to NZ. Should they have been left to the Aussies?
“Two thirds of them have not committed any criminal offence since coming to NZ.”
Yet. But everyone of them committed a crime in Australia.
And did their time. And yet they were still being detained without trial.
If empathy or basic principles of justice don’t rock your boatpeople, try a little bit of enlightened self interest – if nobody cared about people they didn’t like being unfairly treated, who will stand up for you?
“And did their time.”
And then were being deported, as is Australia’s right. But hey, this government seems hell bent on p’ing off one of our most important trading partners.
It’s spelled “detained”. If they’d been “deported”, Davis wouldn’t have had to do a darned thing.
Glad to see that you follow in the fine
fuckwittory tradition of valuing trade over even NZ citizens being held without trial.“It’s spelled “detained”.”
No deported. That’s why they came back to NZ. Perhaps you would have been willing to have them as neighbours?
No, they were being detained when Davis was involved. They were not in NZ, they were in a camp. Therefore they had not been deported, they were being detained.
As for whom I want to be neighbours with, I’d prefer them over you.
“No, they were being detained when Davis was involved. ”
Pending deportation.
Quote – ‘Up to a 1000 criminals – including killers, sex offenders, drug dealers and outlaw bikies – will be dumped on New Zealand’s doorstep in the next five years.’
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/71091542/Hundreds-of-criminals-face-deportation-to-New-Zealand
Yes, pending. As in “detained without trial”.
Basically, your problem is that you have no evidence the non-NZ asylum seekers have done a damned thing wrong, but you don’t want to help them.
The people who did have a criminal history were NZ citizens, and as such entitled to all the rights and representation of NZ officials and elected representatives as any other NZer, but you don’t think those rights should be extended to people you don’t like.
Both groups you want to abandon because “trade”.
“Basically, your problem is that you have no evidence the non-NZ asylum seekers have done a damned thing wrong, but you don’t want to help them. ”
Read the Stuff article.
I note that the Stuff article doesn’t mention the group McFlock referred to.
Dude, you’re abandoning people to detention and maltreatment because Stuff said so. What next, taking a position on deploying troops to south Sudan because Woman’s Weekly had a pictorial?
“I note that the Stuff article doesn’t mention the group McFlock
referred to.”
It’s the same group of people.
“…you’re abandoning people to detention and maltreatment because Stuff said so. ”
No, I’m calling out Davis for representing criminals ahead of law abiding NZ’ers.
were law-abiding nzers being detained?
BTW, you quoted the section of my comment of 2:17pm that referred to non-NZ asylum seekers, and then you proceeded to talk about the NZ detainees. That’s what OAB was pointing out.
AWESOME TUNE IN … Listening Post has just started, 2nd story up is about Manus Island. Here is the live feed for watching it now…. will post the link for the story when it is available (probably tomorrow)
Such a nerd this is my regular saturday night viewing, love love the Listening Post
“Speak truth to power”. Sometimes the powerful don’t like the truth- it is shaming, disturbing, requiring action, requiring effort, requiring a principled stand in return.
Jacinda Ardern has spoken the truth to those in power in Australia over these detainees.
It’s what a mate does- tell your mates when they’re wrong. The friendship will suffer if nothing is said and the wrong continues. At least your mate will know that his mate will act with principle in his dealings. At best, the mate will change his ways.
This is not a good fight to be making with Australia. It’s being done for show and political brinkmanship not because NZ has a great concern for refugees. If that were the case the new NZ government would instead be talking about raising our refugee intake from 750 year and would start doing the political and financial hard-work to welcome tens of thousands of refugees via the UN into NZ.
Instead the government has decided go for moral grandstanding with a country that took in over 17,000 refugees a year. I’m disappointed and embarrassed at what I see as cheap and lazy politics aimed at scoring points rather than doing something to actually make a difference. We’ve had that for 9 years and I, for one, voted for something different.
When is the fight for human rights, basic respect and humanity not a good fight?
It’s being done for show and political brinkmanship not because NZ has a great concern for refugees.
How come you think you speak for NZ wishes? You mean that the people you gather with at work, sport, the pub or church, think alike about this. However that is not NZ as a whole. We I think care, but don’t want to be swamped, and if we do too much it will rebound on us and Australia will hate us for showing up how far back they are from their obligations under humanitarian agreements that as a supposedly advanced government, they have signed up to.
“It’s being done for show and political brinkmanship not because NZ has a great concern for refugees. If that were the case the new NZ government would instead be talking about raising our refugee intake from 750 year”
You do understand that there’s already a commitment from our new government to double our annual intake of refugees, don’t you, Peter? I mean, you wouldn’t want to make yourself look foolish by making accusations that are so easily rebutted..?
Manus Island story starts at 14.30
“Covering Manus Island
Last year, Papua New Guinea’s Supreme Court ruled that Australia’s imprisonment of asylum seekers on the islands of Manus and Nauru was illegal and ordered the closure of the camps.
Unfortunately, the story attracted little attention since Australia’s offshore “processing centres” for asylum seekers have operated largely under a shroud of secrecy.
Journalists trying to report on conditions at the prisons have been blocked at every turn by the governments involved.
Eighteen months since that court ruling, the camps are now closed but the refugees are refusing to leave fearing attacks by local people.
The Listening Post’s Johanna Hoes returns to the story of the refugees on Manus Island and Nauru.
Contributors:
Elaine Pearson, director, HRW Australia
Paul Farrell, senior reporter, Buzzfeed Australia
Matthew Abbott, documentary photographer
Amir Taghinia, former Manus refugee
Behrouz Boochani, refugee
Remember this… 15 Jun 2017
Australia to pay $53m to Manus Island asylum seekers
“The Australian government has agreed to pay 70 million Australian dollars ($53m) to more than 1,900 asylum seekers who sued over their treatment at the Manus Island detention centre on Papua New Guinea (PNG).”
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/06/australia-pay-53m-manus-island-asylum-seekers-170614054721385.html
Can’t wait for Ozzy mainlanders to seek climate refuge in NZ.
This book predicts exactly that.
http://www.urpub.org/books/2100
Oh look!
A face-saving backdown.
What I can’t work out from the Peter Duttons and David Farrars is what these men are going to do once forced off the detention centre site.
If they are so concerned about them committing sex abuse crimes now then they should be very worried about what might happen when several hundred men are released to the wider community of 43,000 on a remote island in a country with scare resources.