Beneficiary reduction targets, homelessness and suicide

41 comments on “Beneficiary reduction targets, homelessness and suicide ”

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1. Tautoko Mangō Mata 1

   26 July 2017 at 7:46 am

   This government HAS TO GO!
2. Korero Pono 2

   26 July 2017 at 7:51 am

   My line of work over a number of years brings me into contact with WINZ case managers on a regular bases, some of them are decent enough to deal with, whilst others are the rudest people in a professional context that I have had the misfortune to deal with. I have noticed over the last couple of years an increase in the less accommodating type.

   From my experience, case managers who bully, misinform and deny entitlements are becoming the norm. I believe that every person that has to deal with WINZ needs an advocate/support person with them. They need to check out the policy via MAP prior to entering the office because many just accept NO when they’re told “not entitled”. I am yet to work out whether CM’s don’t know or whether they are deliberately misleading people about entitlements to things like Disability Allowance.

   Thankfully the introduction of MyMSD makes it easier for people to access a third food grant (assuming they have a payment card) without being forced into the WINZ office (but that’s only good for people with access to internet and computer). I have also noticed people are reluctant to go in without support because they believe if they go alone they’ll be declined help despite qualifying for assistance. The culture that permeates the place is vicious, the systems is broken and in my opinion only a complete overhaul will fix it – that is why I like the Green’s policy on this one.

   Ken Moffat’s (1999) paper “Surveillance and government of the welfare recipient” reads like the blue print used by the current government and accurately describes the mechanisms currently in play to destroy the humanity of and dehumanise welfare recipients.
   • garibaldi 2.1

     26 July 2017 at 8:16 am

     Thank you KP. If only we could get the moronic media dicks like Hosking, Soper et al to read this and learn.
     This information needs proper exposure but we all know that won’t happen.
     • PMC 2.1.1

       26 July 2017 at 9:01 am

       People like Hosking are beyond learning.
       • Sabine 2.1.1.1

         26 July 2017 at 12:33 pm

         his income depends on not learning and not caring.
3. One Anonymous Bloke 3

   26 July 2017 at 8:22 am

   The Greens are proposing an amnesty for the wrong people.

   Instead, WINZ human rights abusers should be encouraged to come forward and be interviewed by the Police.
   • red-blooded 3.1

     26 July 2017 at 8:38 am

     Sorry but that just doesn’t make sense. Do you understand what an amnesty is? If people are being interviewed by the police because they’ve come forward, that’s not an amnesty. Plus, why would “WINZ human rights abusers” do this?

     An attempted joke?
     • One Anonymous Bloke 3.1.1

       26 July 2017 at 8:48 am

       I think WINZ employees could be offered immunity from prosecution if they can provide evidence that leads to the conviction of other employees and especially senior staff.

       Why does any criminal offer a voluntary confession? To assuage a guilty conscience, presumably.

       Metiria’s suggestion that the victims be offered amnesty makes no sense unless in the context of some sort of ‘truth and reconciliation’ process.
       • weka 3.1.1.1

         26 July 2017 at 10:09 am

         As a ‘client’ of WINZ’s I’d rather not have an additional layer of nasty authoritarian culture embedded in the system where staff are pitted against staff, because the abuse will just get passed on in many ways. Better to start at the top of the chain.
         • DoublePlusGood 3.1.1.1.1

           26 July 2017 at 12:55 pm

           Exactly. The next minister should instantly sack the top two tiers of management of the organisation in their entirety, and start afresh with a new organisational culture.
         • One Anonymous Bloke 3.1.1.1.2

           26 July 2017 at 2:55 pm

           I think whistleblowers should be encouraged, especially where human rights abuses are concerned. The way to deal with the wider issue is a UBI.
         • One Anonymous Bloke 3.1.1.1.3

           26 July 2017 at 3:16 pm

           I’d also point out that these prosecutions would be occurring in a reformed justice system that emphasises rehabilitation and restorative justice.

           Obviously I need to add these caveats because as soon as I mention a courtroom apparently that means “fucking people over”, despite the innumerable times I’ve argued against our shitty penal system.
       • Bill 3.1.1.2

         26 July 2017 at 12:51 pm

         I think WINZ employees could be…

         So take the culture that’s fucking people over, and don’t get rid of it, but use it to “righteously” fuck people over. ffs.
         • One Anonymous Bloke 3.1.1.2.1

           26 July 2017 at 2:52 pm

           Nope, I’m saying that human rights abuses should be prosecuted, and whistleblowing should be encouraged.

           I’m sure you can think of a way to interpret that in a negative light too. After all, I said it.
           • Bill 3.1.1.2.1.1

             26 July 2017 at 3:15 pm

             Are the abuse of human rights embedded in the Act? (I’d guess not).

             Have decisions been made in line with WINZ interpretations of the Act that some might construe as having resulted in a human rights abuse? (I’d imagine so)

             But then, if the Act itself doesn’t contain anything that would constitute an abuse of human rights and those administering the Act follow guidelines laid out for them (there’s very little discretion these days), then….?

             And if they failed to follow the guidelines laid out for them? What then? Human rights abuse by omission?

             Maybe you’d care to lay out some possible human rights abuses that you have in mind?

             edit – And you can quit with the ‘poor me’ victim bullshit while your at it.
             • One Anonymous Bloke …

               26 July 2017 at 3:32 pm

               It’s embedded, and “I was just following orders” isn’t a defence.

               Oh, and far from being “fucked over” I’m suggesting that human rights abusers be rehabilitated. Corrections needs a change of culture too.

               Fuck knows why I’m bothering to explain myself but.
             • One Anonymous Bloke …

               26 July 2017 at 3:57 pm

               Examples:

               Benefits are paid before income for the period is reported. This leads to inevitable overpayments which are then misrepresented as fraud, which is discriminatory, to say the least.

               As for individual examples, do you know anybody who’s been lied to by WINZ staff? Or falsely accused?

               The whole department rewards effective breaches of article 1 of the UDoHR. Do they occur? You betcha.
   • One Anonymous Bloke 3.2

     26 July 2017 at 8:42 am

     …not to mention that the systematic dishonesty and denial of benefits to citizens constitutes a massive ongoing fraud.
     • PMC 3.2.1

       26 July 2017 at 9:04 am

       And turning Work and Income offices into a battleground with their paid up army of thugs is another big thing keeping people away.

       https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/95092628
   • popexplosion 3.3

     26 July 2017 at 11:29 am

     Giving a pitiful amount and then banning them from capitalism is a crime against humanity. An amnesty is way wrong, like saying its OK to deny an economic right to engage in the society if admiting it was a virtue. It just doesn’t make a lot of sense,society deliberately wants to give citizens support and then cluelesly criminalizes, denies basic human liberty of economic engagement, and points snidely at welfare recipients that obviously criminal behaviour of not being up for work. Who does that! Gives someone money because they can’t work and then turns around and snidely say they are behaving like criminals who are also work shy avoidance of authority etc. Its just poor management to chase a few coins; undermine the value of the money that is given out; and then deny access to a right to engage economically (and as we now know socially. As pretty much all social is economic aka internet social networks). So we have this abusive way of looking at individuals while denying then econimc avenues yet letting tax avoiding multinationals make money off their social media activities. Anew form of slavery, were people create value they themselves are denied or heavily deincentivized from profiting from. Welfare fraud shouldbe extremely rare, there is little to gain, as its a pitiful amount, there is immediate oversight, who does that, finds the authority and takes their change?!?! Intent would suggest criminals take up drug dealing not lying to wins.
   • Bill 3.4

     26 July 2017 at 12:46 pm

     From the amnesty link –

     She (Tolley)said the government had increased the benefit last year to make it easier but there was a balancing act to “make it much more worthwhile for people to be in work”.

     I think I might have got a $5 increase. I stand to be corrected – it could have been more or it could have been less. The point is, it was so fucking insignificant as to be instantly forgotten.

     “This is taxpayers’ money, it’s not a pot of gold the government has at the bottom of the garden,” she (Tolley) said.

     So which is it? Taxpayers money (I’m a tax payer). Or the government’s wee pot of gold? Obviously it’s taxpayers money, but seems to me that Tolley is more inclined to view the public purse as the government’s wee pot of gold.

     Turei has proposed WINZ operate an “amnesty” for people who have broken the law so they can approach a case manager and not be judged.

     Long overdue.

     I’d add that all live cases need to be reviewed, and where fraud was admitted to under duress, and where no actual fraud was committed (I know for sure of one case), then WINZ repay monies with interest back to those people paying fines they shouldn’t be paying.

     That case I’m alluding to above is 20 years old, and the person in question is still paying monies to WINZ although they absolutely did not commit any fraud, or claim any monies they were not entitled to. (Amazing what the threat of prosecution and possible jail time will do by way of extracting ‘a confession’ from a solo parent.)

     Also, prosecutions should be based on the difference between what was paid and what ought to have been paid and not on the sum total of the entire claim.

     Tolley says she doesn’t see a need for an amnesty.

     Of course she doesn’t.
     • weka 3.4.1

       26 July 2017 at 1:06 pm

       You’re the wrong class of bene Bill. If you’d had kids you would have got a raise (otherwise, I doubt it was even $5, but the usual couple of dollars they add on each April for some obscure reason).

       I’m in 2 minds about the amnesty. LW amnesty = an actual amnesty, change system so people don’t have to lie and have enough to live on. RW amnesty = no rise in benefits, no change in culture, and let’s put it in the system that you were granted an amnesty so we can scrutinise you for the rest of your time on a benefit, plus the ones that don’t fess up can be gone after even harder, and anyone who subsequently claims what they’re not entitled to, or doesn’t share all the information even the stuff they don’t know they have to share will be pilloried beyond belief.
       • One Anonymous Bloke 3.4.1.1

         26 July 2017 at 2:58 pm

         That’s why I think the Greens have this upside down. Offering an amnesty implies wrongdoing where none has occurred. Feeding children isn’t a crime. Denying benefits and abusing citizens should be.
       • Bill 3.4.1.2

         26 July 2017 at 3:21 pm

         Aye well. I was thinking I only got the usual annual increase, but since the minister was quoted as implying that all benefit levels were raised…

         Anyway. I agree that the amnesty would/could only work in conjunction with the whole WINZ culture being overhauled/binned.

         But regardless of any amnesty (or maybe as a precursor) I’d like historical cases looked at and redress offered where appropriate.
         • One Anonymous Bloke 3.4.1.2.1

           26 July 2017 at 4:16 pm

           I’d like historical cases looked at and redress offered where appropriate.

           It’s not hard to see that leading to precisely the same increase in departmental toxicity as whistleblowing, with the inevitable fallout on ‘clients’.

           To change the culture several things have to happen. Most importantly beneficiaries need the full protection of the BoRA. I can’t see how any departmental overhaul will address the political mileage to be gained out of hate speech against beneficiaries, though, and that forms a destructive feedback loop in that it validates staff discrimination.

           A UBI would short-circuit all of it.
4. dv 4

   26 July 2017 at 8:36 am

   Add the run around between WINZ and Housing.
5. weka 5

   26 July 2017 at 10:07 am

   Very good post r0b, thanks.
6. AsleepWhileWalking 6

   26 July 2017 at 10:21 am

   Structural violence about describes it.

   From what Ive seen I also suspect they have quotas for other outcomes eg number of people on SLP shifted to JSS, number of special needs grants, amount of disability costs reduced, etc etc. In fact I believe the culture undermines the Social Securities Act.
   • popexplosion 6.1

     26 July 2017 at 11:35 am

     Its distracting us from the real problem of mismatching rewards given to the wealthiest. As Buffet pointed out, he never created the wealth he has accumulated, obviously there is a huge misappropriation of economic wealth creation to fewer and fewer, and snide attacks on the poorest for not returning value on every pitiful cent that gets there way is violence, theft with menaces.
     • AsleepWhileWalking 6.1.1

       26 July 2017 at 12:11 pm

       Yep it certainly is.

       Just read a Herald headline…now they are bitching about Turei + the law society. In the meantime we have a slew of injustice in our system that at best is occassionally covered by Herald reporters, and then overwhelmed by a a disproportionate number of stories of everything coming up roses.
       • popexplosion 6.1.1.1

         28 July 2017 at 4:15 pm

         She is a women with a kid… …had she been a kiwi guy getting a feed from parents once a week, doing a cash in hand job for a brother… …basically anyone has help going on a benefit should not mean those social contacts should’ve denied. Keep fit helping dig the driveway up, babysitting the neighbors kids, going to a weekly family meal… …its basically an attack on citizens that benefit recipit should mean banishment. But of course it does not as venues can earn up to 80 a week, they can be helped by family… …that’s why wins has the extra cash support. So when nr guyon trashed her as a criminal you have to ask wtf happens to the truelyisolated who will now worry about any fault that reduces income.

         Its wrong to criminalize a good purpose of giving with one hand… …people can protest on a benefit it’s not a shameful act as one nat mp declared.
     • RedLogix 6.1.2

       26 July 2017 at 2:23 pm

       It’s hard not to keep circling back to the core issue here; the bitter class war being fought by the rich on the rest of humanity.

       They reserve all collective actions for themselves, ensure they’re are subject to the lightest possible scrutiny and regulation, they demand privacy for all their hidden transactions, they form cosy professional and business guilds, they conduct secret conferences and quiet meetings to progress their interests, their corporates wield a massive asymmetry of power over their precariate employees and minions, they lobby hard for protected monopolies and massive subsidies, yet when they crash the economy through their recklessness and greed there is no accountability.

       You can tell they know the immense value of these rights, because they so aggressively deny them to ordinary people.

       Modern industrial civilisation, for all it’s faults, has generated an immense wealth that could have easily eliminated absolute poverty from the face of the earth several times over. It could have eliminated all waste, all pollution, completely ended the burning of fossil carbon and restored a balance of wild places for life to thrive. Easily.

       Yet none of these things have happened because over the past 40 years a tiny number of amoral predators have been feeding on the body of humanity like a pack of wolves. Virtually ALL the new wealth created by technology in this period was siphoned off, horded, gambled or just wasted by these parasites.

       In a sense we’ve all been complicit in this deception; we’ve all hoped that if we went along with it, tugged our forelocks at the right moment, muttered all the right imprecations and pleased the right people that we too might get some crumbs from the big table. True it was the only game in town and we all had our reasons, but until we acknowledge the truth here we can never start the redemption. We can never heal this violence and shame.
       • Richard Christie 6.1.2.1

         26 July 2017 at 2:55 pm

         +100%
       • One Anonymous Bloke 6.1.2.2

         26 July 2017 at 3:44 pm

         Yep, this, and yet another explanation of why an “amnesty” is utterly inappropriate.
       • Draco T Bastard 6.1.2.3

         26 July 2017 at 3:57 pm

         +111
       • Ed 6.1.2.4

         26 July 2017 at 5:21 pm

         Yes this has been class war.
         Turei’s open rebellion has challenged the wealthy class warriors.
         So their propagandists in the media have to earn their keep.
         Metiria has certainly touched a nerve.
         These people are not completely invulnerable.
   • One Anonymous Bloke 6.2

     26 July 2017 at 4:38 pm

     the culture undermines the Social Securities Act.

     It undermines the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, never mind the law. That said, regardless of whether the government changes in September, I wonder if there are ways to challenge WINZ (and by extension National Party) behaviour in court along similar lines as Bartlett vs. Terranova.

     If so, the more lines of argument the better.
7. WILD KATIPO 7

   26 July 2017 at 4:13 pm

   The herding of the masses and the net effect on people ,… starting with the unemployed, those on benefits and reinforced by the corporate media.

   The aim?

   To make em all ‘ numb’….

   Comfortably Numb – pink floyd – YouTube
   
   • Ed 7.1

     26 July 2017 at 5:17 pm

     I am shocked by the lack of moral outrage over how WINZ treat the poor and vulnerable .
     Many wealthy and middle class NZers have as you put it become comfortably numb.
8. Michael 8

   26 July 2017 at 5:23 pm

   WINZ has had these targets for years. So has ACC. Both outfits began paying bureaucrats to kick people off the government’s books long before this government took office. Some of the worst abuse of ACC claimants (NB: people with disabilities) took place during the term of the last “Labour” government. Word spread through the community; even though I warned successive “Labour” Ministers for ACC and backbench MPs about the political backlash that was building up against them, my words were ignored, totally. in 2017, Labour is reaping what it sowed. Yes, abuse of the poor and vulnerable occurs under the Nats. But “Labour” , the very political organisation formed to protect ordinary people from the excesses of capitalism, condones the same abuses, if it does not actively encourage them. That’s why I neither vote nor support Labour any more; it’s also why I encourage other people not to vote or support it.
   • popexplosion 8.1

     31 July 2017 at 12:29 pm

     Party Vote Green means what? That the share of votes doesn’t go to Lab, but long term Greens will still need a constituent party ally. A party focused on local constituent matters, so voting Labour in the electorate changes Labour! Split vote Green/labour and get twice the representation like Epson voters do.

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