Convoy protest 27/2/22

Written By: - Date published: 6:10 am, February 27th, 2022 - 198 comments
Categories: covid-19 - Tags: , , ,

Day 19

 

Radicalisation in real time (Dr Michael Daubs, Newsroom)

Parliamentary Grounds occupation and mandates: Analysis, and News Reporting lists of articles for 23/2/22 (The Democracy Project)

Figureheads and factions: the key people at the parliament occupation (Toby Manhire, The Spinoff)

Police wave white flag as occupiers dig in – why parliament stalemate won’t end anytime soon (Marc Daalder, Newsroom)

List of reasons for Convoy 2022 NZ (NZ Truckies FB)

Letter of Demand (from protest organisers)

Newsroom: ‘Splintered realities’: How NZ convoy lost its way

Stuff: Inside the disorienting, contradictory swirl of the convoy, as seen through its media mouthpiece,

 

198 comments on “Convoy protest 27/2/22 ”

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  1. weka 1
    27 February 2022 at 10:05 am

    copying comments from OM (where they will be deleted and no, I can't move them directly)

  2. weka 2
    27 February 2022 at 10:07 am

    Tony Veitch (not etc.)

    A member of the ‘silent’ majority so inelegantly expresses the sentiments of so many of us!

    https://twitter.com/Oldie452/status/1497555777632223239

    And this picture says it all!

    https://twitter.com/realrogerboyce/status/1496706549745545216

    But the people of Wellington ‘fight’ back!

    https://twitter.com/Miss_A_Woods/status/1497021456512815104

  3. weka 3
    27 February 2022 at 10:08 am

    PsyclingLeft.Always 2

    27 February 2022 at 6:27 am (Edit)

    Protesters don tinfoil hats as increasing sickness blamed on Govt radiation rays

    https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/protesters-don-tinfoil-hats-increasing-sickness-blamed-govt-radiation-rays

    WTF …..the Sad, Mad and/or Bad are now basket cases. If they are not going to seek help…they need to be HELPED.. For fucks sake !

  4. dv 4
    27 February 2022 at 10:14 am

    Interesting pic in stuff showing the food servers at the protest– all women!!

  5. Robert Guyton 5
    27 February 2022 at 10:19 am

    Has anyone done a comparative count of mask-wearing at the occupation?

    Protest spokespeople claim that many there are vaccinated. Very difficult to verify/believe.

    A count of maskless/masked would give a fair indication/proxy, I reckon.

    • Matiri 5.1
      27 February 2022 at 10:53 am

      Not a count but there was one solitary person wearing a mask on the packed stage at the wedding yesterday. Really stood out!

    • mpledger 5.2
      27 February 2022 at 11:16 am

      Early on, I had to walk through them to get to and from work and noone was wearing masks (besides me). Maybe 6x altogether before we got sent home.

      I should add that I inadvertently walked through a cloud of cigarette smoke which I though was ironic.

      • Shanreagh 5.2.1
        27 February 2022 at 4:38 pm

        I have just followed a SUV with 'Arrest Bill Gates: Crimes against Humanity' and a MAGA Sticker (NZ version) on the back window, inbound to Wellington. We were diverted because of a serious car crash on to a very slow, at times one way road & I was able to observe that the female anti vaxxer (presumably) had at least 4 cigarettes during the time we were driving along at 10kph for about 1 hour. She casually flicked the ash & butts out the window.

        I am sure that the chemical makeup of a cigarette X however many she smokes in a day, is much more dangerous than the composition of the Covid injection.

  6. Belladonna 6
    27 February 2022 at 10:28 am

    So the 'occupation' part of the protest spreading to Auckland.

    A small group of protesters have set up tents in the Auckland Domain.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/anti-mandate-protestors-camp-out-at-auckland-domain-defying-police/2ZP3ANIBEMZDWLE6CLN7PJWLYY/?c_id=1&objectid=12507408&ref=rss

    Police and/or Council need to move them on now – before they have a chance to get established. That's the mistake made in Parliament grounds – don't repeat it, people.

    Police and Auckland Council have been in talks with protest leaders, who had promised to leave by 9pm last night.

    So they are either lying, or have no control over individual protesters (or a combination of the two).

    • weka 6.1
      27 February 2022 at 10:36 am

      Remove them on what grounds precisely?

      • Robert Guyton 6.1.1
        27 February 2022 at 10:44 am

        "Remove them on what grounds precisely?"

        The Auckland Domain.

        Oh, "on"!

      • Belladonna 6.1.2
        27 February 2022 at 11:08 am

        Illegal (well, against the bylaws) to camp in the Auckland Domain.
        Been well established in the past. People (even in self-contained campervans) are regularly moved on.

        • weka 6.1.2.1
          27 February 2022 at 11:35 am

          Are you against all occupations going forward? Occupy? Ihumatao? XR? Tree sitting? Housing crisis occupations? Is this really the precedent you want to set?

          • Robert Guyton 6.1.2.1.1
            27 February 2022 at 11:48 am

            Is it illegal to sit in a tree…?

            • weka 6.1.2.1.1.1
              27 February 2022 at 12:34 pm

              if it's on private land, I guess. I was thinking about NZ protests that have stopped trees from being put down.

          • Belladonna 6.1.2.1.2
            27 February 2022 at 11:50 am

            You asked "what grounds" I gave them to you.

            The moral right of protesters to protest, overriding the legal rights of the general public, is always a tricky tightrope.

            In general, protesters do break laws and bylaws right, left and centre.

            But, if the desire is to shut down the protest before it turns into another Parliament grounds – then now is the time to do it.

            • weka 6.1.2.1.2.1
              27 February 2022 at 12:26 pm

              Yes, I'm asking you why you have that desire. You had said the reason was because it's illegal. I'm saying it is hugely problematic for the left to argue for removal of an occupation on the grounds that it is illegal, because it will affect all protests going forward.

              I've said above to Joe90 that I can see two clear reasons to oppose the protests.

              1. covid risk. Unfortunately the BLM march set the precendent for this in 2020. I don't know if the Auckland camp current breaches covid regs.

              2. behaviour (moral reasons and legal reasons). Police should act more on this.

              I do know that police said in week 1 of the Wellington protest that they couldn't stop the protestors when they first arrived because there was no lawful way the police could do that.

              • Belladonna …
                27 February 2022 at 12:57 pm

                Pretty certain that they're breaching the Covid limits under Red.
                https://covid19.govt.nz/traffic-lights/life-at-red/gatherings-and-visits-at-red/public-and-private-gatherings-at-red/

                Without a Vaccine pass requirement (which they certainly won't have – since so many are unvaccinated – not to mention that they're philosophically opposed) – they're limited to a gathering of 25 people (even in the open air). Protests aren't specifically listed under the 'allowed activities' but parades and community fairs are – and would be a close equivalent.

                Police shut down student parties, etc. under these rules.

                • weka …
                  27 February 2022 at 1:02 pm

                  yep, and this to me is one of the best rationales for police action. The problem is, BLM also breached covid regs, and imo did so without due regard for public health or safety (not on the same level as the Convoy though). We can't have it both ways.

                  It's also possible that the length of time they've left the Wellington protest makes those grounds less sound.

                  I don't know if this is a factor for the police decisions. We know they crack down hard on Māori protests, so there is inconsistency. This is another reason why we need to be very careful in what we argue for here. Do we want the police to crack down on everyone, or do we want the police to be more evenhanded with everyone?

      • Temp O'Rary 6.1.3
        27 February 2022 at 11:10 am

        On the grounds; of public nuisance, and excluding others from free access to public spaces without permits – precisely. I imagine that assaults and vandalism will be soon forthcoming if they follow the Wellington occupation pattern.

        It is particularly galling for the LGBTQ community to be replaced by companions of Qspirators. On what was supposed to be Pride parade day in Auckland, except that was canceled for the common good with the infection risks in the Pandemic predictions that are becoming reality.

        {Auckland Pride director Tweedie} said his organisation spends hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars on permits and traffic management.

        "It it frustrating … that the police will then treat that event that has just rocked up that's anti-science and that's threatening the health and safety Auckland – that they are treated kind of similarly."

        He said it is also a kick in the guts that Destiny Church's leader Brian Tamaki has organised marches for homophobia and against the Rainbow community in the past.

        https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/462370/pride-march-organiser-frustrated-by-anti-mandate-protest

        • weka 6.1.3.1
          27 February 2022 at 12:42 pm

          On the grounds; of public nuisance, and excluding others from free access to public spaces without permits – precisely.

          Are you wanting all future protests of all kinds to be stopped from happening on those grounds? Occupy? XR or SS4C? Māori occupation?

          • Temp O'Rary 6.1.3.1.1
            27 February 2022 at 1:27 pm

            Back when I still bothered with public demonstrations, it was always understood that arrest and prosecution were a risk that you were taking to participate. With a dash of police brutality if you were unlucky. The impunity with which these current demonstrators are allowed to inconvenience and (allegedly) harm others is striking.

            This sprawling mess that spans the gamut of insurrection to indolence seems incomensurable with the specific and time limited actions of a well organized protest. It has always been a rule of thumb with me that if you are going to break the law, it should be one single law (at a time) and for good reason. That's a fair way from regarding any law as a constraint on absolute individualistic sovereign Freedom.

            Because if everyone is free to do whatever they want, then why should counterprotestors not also be free to go off at the occupiers? But the police have seemed more willing to disperse them in Wellington than the original offenders, I haven't read anything about that in Auckland yet. Did manage to dissuade some in Dunedin from breaking heads (by pointing out Octagon is under HD video surveillance), though hard to tell when people are just venting or really at breaking point with selfish idiocy.

            • weka 6.1.3.1.1.1
              27 February 2022 at 2:41 pm

              there's not much there I disagree with. My point above was about lefties saying that occupation per se is now wrong if it's illegal/unpermited. That's a really bad take.

              (also not a fan of laziness judgements, because of how that gets used against people with disabilities)

              • felix …
                27 February 2022 at 4:40 pm

                It's a terrible take, but this is how that toxic part of the left dies. The same toxic left that has spent the last year or so arguing against free speech as an inherently harmful concept because they don't like some of the people who advocate it. They cut off their own limbs to spite themselves and they don't even know it. Fuck em. They're no use anyway. Let it burn.

                • Anker …
                  27 February 2022 at 10:08 pm

                  felix I agree about the left having spend the last year or so arguing against free speech as an inherently harmful concept,because they don't like some of the people who advocate it (and I would argue what they say as well).

                  I can't quite get into Fuck em and let them burn, but understand that is how you feel.

                • Just Saying …
                  27 February 2022 at 11:30 pm

                  I'd be interested in you elaborating, Felix. Because its not clear to me, even going back, who you see the ''toxic'' as being in your comment.

                  As one who is anti-mandate, it seems you are speaking of us, even though free-speech (and thought, principle etc.), that is my position, as is the left. Yet saying ''let it burn'', I assume, you are seeing this collective as representing the left and you are saying 'let the ''toxic'' anti mandate people burn, (from the tribe) and good riddance.'

                  This has bothered me and I'd really like to know who you are talking about.

            • Just Saying 6.1.3.1.1.2
              27 February 2022 at 7:15 pm

              Did manage to dissuade some in Dunedin from breaking heads (by pointing out Octagon is under HD video surveillance)

              Scapegoating is always about two things – the disavowed shame of a group, and power to control (- ie it is manipulated by leadership or wanna-be leadership to control both thought and behaviour.)

              People damn themselves by scapegoating the other, they encage themselves, so often at the behest of power, not for them, but over them. There is innate survival fear in contagion, and this is a dangerous force that responsible authority operating out of care, would manage, and certainly not leverage.

      • joe90 6.1.4
        27 February 2022 at 11:30 am

        Yesterday evening I had a quiet one with an old >80 workmate. A lifelong tribal Labour man, he reckoned he's got one more vote left and it won't be for Labour. He's been watching Ardern's government and police sit on their hands and tut-tut while people thumb their nose and do WTF they like and he's angry and aghast about what he perceives as the allowed lawlessness of the mobs.

        Believe me, he isn't alone.

        • weka 6.1.4.1
          27 February 2022 at 11:37 am

          There are two reasons to oppose these particular occupations imo. One is omicron. Two is the behaviour. The police should be acting much more strongly on the latter. The former is tricky because while what the protestors are doing is absolutely wrong in terms of public health, the left set the precedent in 2020 with the BLM rally.

          • joe90 6.1.4.1.1
            27 February 2022 at 12:00 pm

            The folk who participated in the BLM rallies marched peacefully, made themselves heard, didn't desecrate National Memorials, didn't pollute harbours, didn't actively confront police, didn't throw shit, didn't spend weeks abusing, harassing and disrupting the lives of residents and passers by, and then they went home.

            • weka 6.1.4.1.1.1
              27 February 2022 at 12:21 pm

              Yes, I already said I believe the police should be acting much more strongly against that behaviour.

              BLM also marched while we have covid in the community and failed to take good precautions. And they broke covid regulations.

              In Auckland, more than 10,000 people turned out for the Black Lives Matter march.

              At that time, New Zealand was at Covid-19 alert level 2, which meant gatherings of no more than 100 people, and strict social distancing had to be adhered to in public places.

              Police considered charging them.

              https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/427077/police-considered-charging-black-lives-matter-march-organisers

              So on the grounds of it's dangerous because of covid, it's the left that set the precedent in NZ.

        • Robert Guyton 6.1.4.2
          27 February 2022 at 11:49 am

          Not voting Labour?

          Then who…?

    • Molly 6.2
      27 February 2022 at 11:35 am

      There isn't actually a designated "protest" space in NZ.

      That's the reality of protests, they occupy spaces (often public) without permission.

      • weka 6.2.1
        27 February 2022 at 11:39 am

        It’s hugely problematic for lefties to say this occupation is wrong on legal grounds. Many progressives gains are made by breaking such laws. We can’t have it both ways.

        • Incognito 6.2.1.1
          27 February 2022 at 11:46 am

          Only looking at the legality of something (an action) is such a narrow lens with blinkers on. Luckily, Court judgments, when it comes this far, are surprisingly nuanced. I’d like to think that this is not so surprising given that considerable thought by highly intelligent and educated people goes into it – they are not snap judgements like we see here by the commentariat of TS.

  7. Molly 7
    27 February 2022 at 11:33 am

    Smug news presenter on Fox News provides space for Tammy Giuliani, Ottawa Stella Luna Gelato Café owner to speak on her experience after being doxxed for donating to the truckers convoy.

    She talks of the hate and threats and also of the support and kindness and the sharing of stories from those who have lost so much.

    https://youtu.be/OMpLDUHzSjg

    Why post Fox News? Well, after the intro he lets her speak fairly uninterrupted.

    Secondly, googling her name and business provides links to mostly right wing news sources.

    Who doxxed her name? Apparently, after the fundme paged was hacked a journalist identified and published the business on Twitter, which then received phone threats etc.

    If you think the Fox presenter is smug, just read the responses Ilhan Omar got for suggesting the journalist acted unethically. The original tweet has been deleted, and the journalist who works for Ottawa Citizen cited above has made her twitter account inactive:

    https://twitter.com/IlhanMN/status/1494083595689943045

    We'll leave the closing argument on this situation to the hacker:

    Aubrey Cottle, a so-called cyberterrorist who is best known for his involvement in the hacktivist group Anonymous, took credit for hacking GiveSendGo in a TikTok video.

    "Yes, I tossed the trucker. I hacked GiveSendGo, and I'd do it again. I'd do it a hundred times," Cottle said. "I did it. I did it. Come at me. What are you going to do to me? I'm literally a famous f****** cyberterrorist, and you think that you can scare me?"

    Social media – is not a benign platform – as we should all know by now.

    But where were all the stories being told of the impacts on the social fabric, and hardships of many New Zealanders during the pandemic. The stories not only of photogenic, worthy people with access to media and a suitably angst ridden story, but the ones of the others, ones who had silently lost their mental health, jobs and housing due to the restrictions and mandates. They weren't going to be regularly platformed on a national newspaper that was running a prominent campaign on vaccinating 90%.

    Someone posted a comment with a link to a study that Victoria University is undertaking on the impact of Covid on NZers. It sounded good (albeit two years late), but is not actually a study on the impact of Covid, it is about the experience of contracting Covid in NZ.

    Where's the data on the social, mental health, financial and relationship impacts in NZ of both Covid itself, and the strategies undertaken to avoid harm?

    Does anyone have any links?

    • joe90 7.1
      27 February 2022 at 11:46 am

      But where were all the stories

      Perhaps there aren't too many stories to be told.

      Fewer than 300 of the more than 31,000 staff affected by the mandate across the organisations remain unvaccinated.

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/462265/covid-19-high-court-quashes-unlawful-vaccine-mandate-for-police-and-defence-force-staff

      • Molly 7.1.1
        27 February 2022 at 12:01 pm

        "Perhaps there aren't too many stories to be told."

        That's a comfortable attitude, but I don't think it is a realistic one.

        I think those stories are being told on social media platforms, which then feeds into algorithms that deliberately deliver repetitive diatribes against authority, and introduction to alternative (and divisive) viewpoints.

        It all depends on whether we want to resolve the division, with understanding, or condemn it with knowledge that we have behind us a majority of others who will also condemn without needing to know "how". We can either look with scorn on those who are protesting, or with empathy without endorsement.

        The conversations here on TS are mostly of the "happy to be scornful" perspective.

        I ask again, does anyone know of research or data on the impact to NZers of both the health repercussions, and the social, financial, mental and relationship costs? (You would assume such data exists, because it would have been included in the strategies taken.)

        Not only would that be an interesting conversation, it would be an informative one.

        • Belladonna 7.1.1.1
          27 February 2022 at 12:21 pm

          Some research done on social, etc. impacts of Covid – mostly done during and immediately after the first lockdown.

          https://journal.nzma.org.nz/journal-articles/life-during-lockdown-a-qualitative-study-of-low-income-new-zealanders-experience-during-the-covid-19-pandemic-open-access

          https://researcharchive.vuw.ac.nz/handle/10063/9022

          https://cdn.auckland.ac.nz/assets/psych/about/our-research/MIFAS/Tech-Docs/MIFAS-Covid-19-2021-Report.pdf

          A couple of research papers and/or preliminary findings – from 2021

          https://www.researchassociation.org.nz/resources/Documents/RANZ%20Workplace%20Mental%20Wellbeing%20Survey%202021.pdf

          https://www.researchassociation.org.nz/resources/Documents/Attitudes%20Going%20ForwaRD%20with%20Delta3.pdf

          AFAICS, none of the research focuses on the disaffected – people who feel a grievance because of their perceived treatment throughout lockdowns and mandates. Because these are across the socio-economic-race spectrum – you can't use any of the standard metrics as a substitute (e.g. not all Maori, not all lower income workers, mid, upper, lower class, etc.)

          Probably too early for 'mandate' research to be completed/published – as it's less than 6 months since the mandates were implemented.

          • Molly 7.1.1.1.1
            27 February 2022 at 12:38 pm

            Thanks, Belladonna.

            Having a look now. It's interesting reading.

          • mpledger 7.1.1.1.2
            27 February 2022 at 12:57 pm

            I'll add

            COVID-19 Pandemic Lockdown and Wellbeing: Experiences from Aotearoa New Zealand in 2020

            https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/19/4/2269

            • Molly 7.1.1.1.2.1
              27 February 2022 at 1:16 pm

              Thanks, mpledger.

              Just having a preliminary look at how the data was collected, both by survey through social media and university community networks, there is also that skew of demographics that is recognised by the authors:

              "Limitations and Future Research

              This paper provides a snapshot of the impact of a COVID-19 lockdown on a segment of Aotearoa New Zealand’s population. With regard to limitations, it is not possible to distinguish the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic independent of the impact of a lockdown without the pandemic on participants. Owing to the snowball sampling method used in recruiting survey participants, which began with university promotion of an online survey, this group is likely to be reflective of a population less impacted by the economic effects of lockdown. As such, this research is limited in its ability to reflect the views of the most disadvantaged and struggling populations. This work is also an analysis of research conducted in real-time by researchers also experiencing lockdown. Interview participants spoke spontaneously and in depth about deeply private experiences. The use of telecommunications tools supported this information sharing and participants said they appreciated having the opportunity to talk to an interviewer who was external to their bubble. Notably, the first 2020 lockdown occurred over the autumn months in Aotearoa New Zealand, with mild weather and less need for home heating, meaning that people’s views may differ had there been worse weather. Future research into people’s wellbeing over the 2021 (and any subsequent) lockdowns would be timely, particularly given the politicisation of vaccine hesitancy and societal divisions based on vaccine status [92], and the waning of ‘be kind’ messaging. Such work could focus on how governments, community and social agencies, and health providers could ideally respond to empower individuals, families, and neighbourhoods working through the pandemic’s repercussions given their experiences over 2020. Given the impact of COVID-19 lockdown on younger populations [93], it would also be worthwhile to separately explore changes to their wellbeing as part of future research."

              The conclusions contain:

              "Interventions that reinforce connectedness, continuity, and provide certainty may function as helpful directions for those facing social isolation. Such interventions include those that support local community connectedness, reduce digital exclusion, promote person-centered care, and support individuals effectively working from home. This is vital to ensure ‘recovery’ given the pandemic’s serious ongoing economic and health-related burdens."

          • Molly 7.1.1.1.3
            27 February 2022 at 1:04 pm

            "AFAICS, none of the research focuses on the disaffected – people who feel a grievance because of their perceived treatment throughout lockdowns and mandates. Because these are across the socio-economic-race spectrum – you can't use any of the standard metrics as a substitute (e.g. not all Maori, not all lower income workers, mid, upper, lower class, etc.)

            Probably too early for 'mandate' research to be completed/published – as it's less than 6 months since the mandates were implemented."

            Although, as you say, there are limitations to providing research on the mandateswhich are less than a year in place, there must have been some data and extrapolation modelling to inform the design of those mandates. It would be good to see that if so.

            The first study relates to the experience of 27 participants, so I moved on to the second which was good in terms of recognition of the impact (only of the first lockdown) to many households.

            It considered the negative impact was mitigated by the financial support system implemented by the Government, but the table on Page 11(Figure 1.1. Work status by household income), you can easily see how the brunt of the job and income losses were mainly on the lower income households.

            Actually, the whole paper is worth the read, its an analysis of an internet survey with 2,002 respondents. It acknowledges the limitations of that approach to surveys, which misses out on the responses of the 10% of households that don't have internet access, which most likely resulted in an underestimate of the the impact on lower income households.

            Given that the survey was taken in Week 3 of the original lockdown, the study recognises the emerging nature of the responses and impact, and includes in its conclusion:

            "Although New Zealanders reported an overwhelming acceptance of and compliance with the unprecedented public health measures, 20 the descriptive findings of this study shed light on the unequal wellbeing burden of lockdown, in terms of job and income loss and parental time crunch. At the same time, these findings highlight that, overall, New Zealanders appeared resilient in the face of this public health crisis three weeks into an unprecedented lockdown. This study identified key groups who faced significant hardship. It will be important for future research to identify whether these effects are long-lasting, and if so, appropriate policy tools aimed at alleviating these effects should be prioritised during the recovery."

            It is the final sentences that are still worth consideration here.

            It's a pity that repeated surveys did not take place, so that we could see how NZers were being affected over time, and as strategies changed.

            The other studies seemed to be more generic, and of little use in providing food for thought.

            • Belladonna 7.1.1.1.3.1
              27 February 2022 at 1:26 pm

              Although, as you say, there are limitations to providing research on the mandateswhich are less than a year in place, there must have been some data and extrapolation modelling to inform the design of those mandates. It would be good to see that if so.

              I'd say we have little or any chance of seeing any extrapolation modelling. It will be in government depts, and require an OIA to access.

              • Molly …
                27 February 2022 at 1:43 pm

                "I'd say we have little or any chance of seeing any extrapolation modelling. It will be in government depts, and require an OIA to access."

                I agree.

                It's just that there is such certainty in those denigrating protestors for not following the evidence in terms of vaccines, who are also prepared to take that stance without reference to evidence of the benefit of all the current mandates.

        • Belladonna 7.1.1.2
          27 February 2022 at 1:10 pm

          I'm feeling (and this is a feeling, not hard data), that the research from 2020 is of no value in measuring the current situation (though might be a useful benchmark).

          In conversations, I'm seeing that people (especially Aucklanders) found each subsequent lockdown to be significantly harder than the one before (so cumulative harm); and that the vaccine mandates were a game changer for many (moving from being 'part' of the team of 5 million, to 'outsiders'). Effectively a seismic shift.

          Again in conversations (with fully vaccinated people) a shift from the attitude that last year mandates were needed – in order to motivate the country to get vaccinated, and protect against Delta); to the attitude that, while they don't condone the violent behaviour, the anti-mandate protest does have a point.

          What I'm trying to say (and perhaps not saying very well) is that the anti-mandate attitude is becoming more mainstream. Not there yet, but definitely shifting.

          • weka 7.1.1.2.1
            27 February 2022 at 1:28 pm

            yes. I've seen this play out on TS too.

          • Molly 7.1.1.2.2
            27 February 2022 at 1:30 pm

            Both the paper you provided, and the one from mpledger above, indicate that even with the initial government support for the impact on households, the effects of the pandemic had substantial impacts on some households, more often those with the smallest buffers against shock. As we know, that financial support for those who lost their income is no longer provided at that initial level.

            Like you, I would assume that as time has gone by, and the long-term impacts of those initial costs have continued, and/or been added to, many of those in the original stressed households would have carried that stress for the duration, and many other households may have joined them.

            As public messaging has been about vaccination, and articles and news stories have celebrated the achievements of the vaccination programme, there has been no attention given to those households under stress.

  8. Barfly 8
    27 February 2022 at 11:49 am

    Well if you the Auckland Domain cleared it's pretty simple

    Announce and start "promoting" a counter protest planned for x days in the future

    Police will most likely very quickly clear the occupiers to avoid the likely violent confrontations.

  9. Robert Guyton 9
    27 February 2022 at 11:54 am

    Has anyone said, "He aha te F!” ?"

    Just wondering'…

  10. Barfly 10
    27 February 2022 at 11:57 am

    I have had interactions with covid anti-vaxxers whom I knew before covid hit – what I have found is that (the ones I know) they are quite aggressive and to me they are insisting on a "right " to spread covid. One I saw just before Christmas was literally behaving like a dog rubbing himself all over me – this type of action I suspect is prevalent amongst them and is generating a considerable hostility towards them in me.

    • joe90 10.1
      27 February 2022 at 12:20 pm

      I know one person with a religious objection, a few infected with either crystal/weed is magic/like cures like/body beautiful woo or NWO/it's a plan claptrap, and the rest are behaving like toddlers with an oppositional defiance disorder.

    • weka 10.2
      27 February 2022 at 12:29 pm

      I'm not convinced this is prevalent. The anti-vaxxing people I know (long term) are generally respectful people and wouldn't do something like that no matter what they believed about covid.

    • observer 10.3
      27 February 2022 at 12:31 pm

      We know it is not a freedom protest.

      Objecting to something put into one's own body is a legitimate issue of freedom. A reasonable debate is possible.

      Objecting to other people exercising their freedom to wear a mask or be socially distant is an assault on other people's freedom. They hate freedom.

    • Belladonna 10.4
      27 February 2022 at 12:37 pm

      I know several people (acquaintances, friends and one family member – I have an extensive extended family!) who are anti-vax – but even more who are anti-mandate.

      None of them are insane (well, apart from their delusions over Covid vaccinations, and the risk that Covid infection could actually hospitalize or kill them).

      From the outside, and in regular conversation, you wouldn't know they were any different to the rest of us. Certainly, I've never seen any sign that they would disrespect me and my health concerns in the way you're describing. It sounds like a significant mental issue – completely aside from the anti-vax delusions.

      Notably, the most bitter, are those who have been forced through the mandate process to get vaccinated. (Yes, the threat of losing your job, and not being able to feed your kids or pay your mortgage is force). The ones who have lost jobs are angry, but the ones who feel they've been forced to compromise their deeply-held beliefs are much, much, more bitterly angry.

      • weka 10.4.1
        27 February 2022 at 1:23 pm

        Notably, the most bitter, are those who have been forced through the mandate process to get vaccinated. (Yes, the threat of losing your job, and not being able to feed your kids or pay your mortgage is force). The ones who have lost jobs are angry, but the ones who feel they've been forced to compromise their deeply-held beliefs are much, much, more bitterly angry.

        this is an incredibly important observation. Of the people I know long term, the depth of feeling is intense, and something mainstream NZ is missing I think.

      • Molly 10.4.2
        27 February 2022 at 1:37 pm

        Agree.

        I'm boosted, very susceptible to adverse outcomes from contracting Covid, and critical of the failure of those within authority, and with public platforms to even consider that dividing society into the vaxxed and unvaxxed has significant consequences.

        Pointing out the few tinfoil hat wearers is a selective tool to ignore the rest.

        My view on the people who occupied the waterfront to watch corporations prance about in their boats for the America's Cup, is that I don't share their enthusiasm and proud wearing of merchandise, let alone their focus on the computer generated racing analysis but I don't have to, to understand their enjoyment or passion.

        We are not endorsing those who are protesting, when we seek to understand them. We are, however, exposing ourselves (truthfully) on how we discuss them and their concerns.

      • Just Saying 10.4.3
        27 February 2022 at 1:41 pm

        From the outside, and in regular conversation, you wouldn't know they were any different to the rest of us.

        This made me laugh. I'm not sure it should have.

        I enjoyed meeting people at the protest yesterday. I felt a kind of relief. There were many passing cars honking horns, with passengers out of the windows, waving, cheering with gusto. In more mainstream, endorsed, beliefs, like the TPP or climate-change, passersby tend to just honk their horns and wave in a subdued fashion. Equally, those expressing opposition were much more hostile.

        There are many who have felt unable to express their opinion and this issue has festered for a while.

        • Rosemary McDonald 10.4.3.1
          27 February 2022 at 1:48 pm

          From the outside, and in regular conversation, you wouldn't know they were any different to the rest of us.

          This made me laugh. I'm not sure it should have.

          Any doubts we fucking filth un 'vaccinated' are definitely and permanently 'other' now gone.

          How the hell are we going to move on from this?

          (Rhetorical question…)

          • Molly 10.4.3.1.1
            27 February 2022 at 1:51 pm

            "How the hell are we going to move on from this?"

            I know it was rhetorical, Rosemary, but I'm wondering the same.

          • Just Saying 10.4.3.1.2
            27 February 2022 at 2:03 pm

            Relationships are strained or have ended due to this. This includes family relationships. IMHO, in some cases the road has either permanently ended, or there will be a rougher journey…… In the long run, I don't think that is a bad thing. A kind of stress-test and inevitable change. But it is an evolution, at the individual and a broader scale. And it hurts.

      • Rosemary McDonald 10.4.4
        27 February 2022 at 1:51 pm

        Serious question…do you distinguish between those who are anti all vaccines from those of us who are the anti novel mRNA products?

        • Belladonna 10.4.4.1
          27 February 2022 at 6:31 pm

          Rosemary – if that was to me….

          I don't. I regard people as people. I have family, friends and acquaintances – many of whom I don't agree with on a whole range of topics (wouldn't life be boring if we all agreed).

          I've had, for many years, friends who are anti-childhood vaccinations – because they *still* believe they cause autism. You can't convince someone they are wrong by throwing facts at them, or arguing. You simply avoid that topic where (to you) they are irrational – and enjoy the other parts of the relationship.

          Right now, I've chosen to be vaccinated to protect my health. I've chosen for my teenager to be vaccinated – though watched like a hawk for any symptoms after the first dose, until it was clear that he wasn't susceptible to negative reactions. My understanding is that this will protect my little family to the best of my ability. And cutting people who've made different choices out of our lives – won't appreciably improve the risk to us – so why would I do it?

          But I don't think that I have the right to impose my beliefs on others.

          I think that mandates had a point initially, especially where they were related to health and border – people who were, at that stage, coming into contact with a virus that the rest of us weren't experiencing.
          I felt that the mandates had less validity for police and teachers. Though again you could argue for contact with a substantial body of unvaccinated people – so a higher risk to them. I did feel that that was *their* risk, and should have been up to them to manage. But workplace safety requirements may have made their management (aka the government) feel that they were required to take action.

          I don't at all support the mandates that have been imposed by business – who are driven by the profit motive of not having staff sick. NZ has a strong judicial tradition of rejecting discrimination in the workplace. And I strongly expect to see legal challenges against these mandates.

          I felt, very strongly, that there should have been provision made for 'conscientious objectors' – and that many workplaces have non-front facing roles, where people could have been deployed. And that provision should also have been made for people to resume their substantive job, once the need for mandates had passed.

          However, once we had widespread Covid in the community, and especially with Omicron which is both highly asymptomatic for vaccinated people and caught at the same rate by the vaccinated and unvaccinated – I felt that the time for mandates had passed.

          • Rosemary McDonald 10.4.4.1.1
            27 February 2022 at 6:59 pm

            Thanks for the reply. If I have read this right you don't make a distinction between those opposed to all vaccines and those who reject the mRNA products?

            Because to call those of us who have had, and have had our children have the usual normal vaccines 'anti-vaxers' because we totally reject the mRNA products is wrong.

            There is a difference.

            • Belladonna 10.4.4.1.1.1
              27 February 2022 at 7:16 pm

              Nope. I don't make a distinction between the various reasons people may have chosen or not chosen to be vaccinated.

              People are people.

              • Rosemary McDonald …
                27 February 2022 at 8:11 pm

                You used the term "anti-vax" at 10.4.

                This is a slur…whether you mean it a such or not.

                I would dearly like it to be noted that some of us…probably most…who have rejected the Pfizer product have not rejected other normal, conventional vaccines.

                There is a very profound difference between the MMR vaccine and the Pfizer product.

                • Bazza64 …
                  27 February 2022 at 8:36 pm

                  I read that the Novavax vaccine is now in NZ. Not sure if it has been made available to the public yet. Have you had this vaccine yet or will you have it when it becomes available ?

                  • Muttonbird …
                    27 February 2022 at 8:43 pm

                    Have you seen David Kronenberg's, The Fly?

                    Could be you if you take that Novovax stuff. It’s made with moths.

                    And don’t forget the company which stews moth DNA to make Novovax has not been in business for very long.

                    Brave person who allows that to be injected.

                    I wouldn’t.

                • Belladonna …
                  28 February 2022 at 7:45 am

                  Sorry, Rosemary. But I've heard this in so many other contexts… 'other vaccinations are fine, it's this one that's the problem'.

                  Starting with the anti-MMR (because it causes autism), but tetanus shots are fine.

                  You really can't expect the rest of the world to make these fine distinctions, about people who choose not to be vaccinated, at a group level. Whatever term is used for the group (refusers, abstainers) – is going to cover people who reject any form of Covid vaccination, for a whole raft of reasons, as well as people who reject one type)

                  And, as I said, at a personal level – your reasons for choosing not to vaccinate are your business.

            • Muttonbird 10.4.4.1.1.2
              27 February 2022 at 7:21 pm

              Normal vaccines being the ones made by moth?

              Sure, I'll take that one thanks because the rest have nano-razorblades in it.

              • Rosemary McDonald …
                27 February 2022 at 8:21 pm

                Sounds like you know as much about pharmacology as you do about plumbing. cheeky

                • Muttonbird …
                  27 February 2022 at 8:26 pm

                  What vaccine are you holding out for? Will it come in time?

                  Best to take official health advice rather than you own reckons, imo.

                  Unless you are an expert, of course…

                  What I can’t understand is huge numbers of Kiwis have made big, big sacrifices for the benefit of vulnerable people, but some of those vulnerable people are determined to reject that sacrifice because of paranoid and deluded anti-government and anti- science fantasies.

                  This needs to be said over and over again.

              • fire …
                1 March 2022 at 8:33 am

                mRNA cell instructions is a nightmare. NO one knows the long term effects.

                I'll take the direct protein injections like Novavax anyday. I get my seasonal flu vaccine from the same technology.

    • Just Saying 10.5
      27 February 2022 at 1:07 pm

      Sorry Barfly,

      My response to your comment ended up down there (imagine arrow pointing down) at twelve.

    • Patricia Bremner 10.6
      27 February 2022 at 4:46 pm

      Barfly it is laying down a challenge. A bit like an thirteen/fourteen year old saying "So what are you going to do about it?"

  11. observer 11
    27 February 2022 at 12:12 pm

    In the ongoing discussion about whether occupations are legal and/or peaceful, I'd suggest relevance is also … well, relevant.

    Cyclists protested on the Auckland harbour bridge about … cycling on the Auckland harbour bridge. People occupied land at Ihumatao in a protest about … land at Ihumatao. There have been sit-ins at universities to protest about policies of universities. Protests at weapons conferences to draw attention to those weapons. And so on.

    The Auckland Domain, Christchurch's Cranmer square and other public places for the enjoyment of the people are in no way related to the government's policies. Having a temporary protest there is justified, having an occupation is not. (Parliament *is* relevant of course, but the issue there is the behaviour and the spread well beyond Parliament, which is not justified).

    I'll leave the question of finer points of law to lawyers, but please let's not keep making these false comparisons with other protests. There is no link between vaccine mandates and camping in Auckland Domain. Zilch.

    • weka 11.1
      27 February 2022 at 12:30 pm

      What about Occupy in NZ? In Dunedin they camped in the Octagon.

      • observer 11.1.1
        27 February 2022 at 12:46 pm

        And in Aotea Square, Auckland. They were eventually evicted but later the court ruled in their favour.

        What's noteworthy is that the National government at the time did not feel the Occupy protests had reached a tipping point of criminal behaviour and social breakdown, so they did not introduce the "Public Freedom Protection Bill", or some such Orwellian name for a restriction of protest rights. The protests were contained and restrained, not least by the protesters themselves.

        Sadly, I would now bet on them campaigning to introduce such laws at the next election, as a vote-winner. That will be the legacy of this self-absorbed, anti-social and deluded bunch.

        • weka 11.1.1.1
          27 February 2022 at 12:49 pm

          right. So what the left should be doing is differentiating between occupation and shitty behaviour. Instead, I'm seeing too many people wanting occupation itself to be stopped.

          • Patricia Bremner 11.1.1.1.1
            27 February 2022 at 5:15 pm

            I think a remarkable tolerance for difference has emerged as people consider those who have medical exemptions/reactions to vaccines, plus those impacted by mandates.. The Police have accommodated difference to the point of pain, so has Government. (-Trev)

            Some folk are terrified of getting this disease, and have withdrawn from all life and argument about the protests because there is no safe common ground. When the mandates are gone what will the focus of anger be then?

            The scarring of society by covid management will need examination and work. If our figures double tomorrow to 28000, a few people protesting and Destiny Church parades will not be the main concern.

            The next 4 to 6 weeks that will see our numbers soar, then our concern should go to medical people and the extra load faced caused by these often obnoxious patients still in denial that covid exists or is bad.

            In other countries such behaviour would lead to summary fines or hospital charges. Not that I favour that, but we are in a critical phase.

            Here is to all St John workers, orderlies, nurses doctors front line workers in the food industry travel and Police. Thank you in advance. We should be talking about extra pay and help for them. They are crucial to get through this, and some are planning to strike. We have been distracted by the minority of protestors and forgotten our essential service people and need to focus on the greatest good for the next six weeks or so. So I was pleased the Police have been acknowledged by the general and local communities and we should do more of that for our local heroes. imo.

    • Belladonna 11.2
      27 February 2022 at 12:46 pm

      Perhaps they should camp outside Chloe Swarbrick and/or Helen White's (MPs from Auckland CBD) houses?

      While I agree that the Domain has little relevance to the subject matter of the protest – what alternatives do protesters outside Wellington have? There *are* no government offices to picket (and, quite frankly – even if there were, it would have little impact on the MPs – who are the ones they want to intimidate). Especially as virtually all civil servants are working from home ATM.

      The venue of the protest is intended to be central (easy for protesters to get to), public (no private property concerns), spacious (easy to set up living quarters, etc.), and irritating (so provide lots of media coverage).

      The Domain qualifies on all of those grounds.

  12. Just Saying 12
    27 February 2022 at 12:24 pm

    That sounds horrible.

    Noone has to put up with being rubbed all over if they don't want to be.

    I would be intimidated by an unwanted such action, without question.

  13. Just Saying 13
    27 February 2022 at 12:54 pm

    In a lot of protest it would be hard to match actions to the physical circumstances. The cyclists had a kind of advantage here, and not one that all causes for concern share.

    Yet I would have thought actions related to human rights, principle, political belief, etc., have the 'human' in the relevant nation ticking that box. Maybe not with the same clarity. Those things can be harder to act out than a cycling bridge protest.

    I would hope that those who, for example wished to protest about the conservation estate, wouldn't have to protest in the wilderness. Nice as that sounds just typing it -going bush, talking to the birds, leaving all of this division behind.

    • observer 13.1
      27 February 2022 at 1:01 pm

      They marched down Queen St in Auckland, and they won.

      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/huge-protest-says-no-to-mining-on-conservation-land/4IW7LEDGSMHOAAEXDEPQ6SA7ZI/

      Protests succeed when public opinion is influenced in their favour (and politicians love votes).

      The fake freedom protests have done the opposite, partly because of the anti-social behaviour, but also because for many it is so obviously not about vaccine mandates.

      • Tony Veitch (not etc.) 13.1.1
        27 February 2022 at 1:43 pm

        This post, I suspect, got a little lost in weka's reshuffle, so I'll post it again.

        This tweeter is expressing what so many of us, the 'silent' majority feel.

        https://twitter.com/GhostInferno/status/1497515190107389955

        • Molly 13.1.1.1
          27 February 2022 at 1:49 pm

          "This tweeter is expressing what so many of us, the 'silent' majority feel."

          I don't know about you, but offloading stress by yelling abuse to easy targets, is not how I feel.

          This is schoolyard bullying, reinforced by social media, and public likes.

          It's not an example of behaviour to emulate.

          • Tony Veitch (not etc.) 13.1.1.1.1
            27 February 2022 at 2:38 pm

            Maybe not, but very understandable!

            Read what he wrote in explanation – of doing all he could for the greater good, only to have a few (very few) selfish f*ckwits doing their best to undo all the good.

            • Molly 13.1.1.1.1.1
              27 February 2022 at 2:48 pm

              Yes, Tony. As I wrote above, we can understand without endorsing.

              I read his explanation, it is an attempt to excuse the behaviour.

              Do you understand the difference?

              (As an aside, I really have an aversion to Twitter, but unfortunately it is one platform where otherwise unplatformed views are given some leeway. However, you have to trail through daisy chains of retweets often to get to the original source. The format of it invites cynical arrogance and performative point scoring. Very few accounts that I come across manage to edit themselves before tweeting.)

          • observer 13.1.1.1.2
            27 February 2022 at 2:47 pm

            offloading stress by yelling abuse to easy targets

            Easy targets like schoolkids wearing masks, or low-paid supermarket workers doing likewise, or journalists doing their job, or public servants walking to work, or students on their uni campus, or a thousand other incidents.

            Given all that, we can't expect saintly patience from everyone else, forever. Fortunately it’s only shouting. Many of the occupiers are advocating much, much worse.

            • Molly 13.1.1.1.2.1
              27 February 2022 at 2:49 pm

              "Given all that, we can't expect saintly patience from everyone else, forever."

              It's not saintly patience. It's adult behaviour.

      • weka 13.1.2
        27 February 2022 at 2:55 pm

        they've managed to get the government to speak about mandates in the past week. That's not nothing.

        • observer 13.1.2.1
          27 February 2022 at 3:00 pm

          Well, we can never prove a counter-factual, but I'd suggest that the court judgement (obviously) and the political pressure (arguably) would have been exactly the same if nobody had camped out in Wellington, Christchurch, Picton etc.

          The government was always going to talk about mandates, and the opposition (Parliamentary) was always going to push them on it. All the occupations have done is allow Ardern to frame it in way far more useful for her (society vs shit-throwers, etc).

          • Molly 13.1.2.1.1
            27 February 2022 at 3:08 pm

            Can't find it – as I am not Twitter expert, but Deborah Russell MP put up a disdainful tweet about a letter received from a person concerned about the vaccine, and showed absolutely no hesitation in publicly ridiculing that person, excusing that behaviour by saying she obscured the name on her tweet image.

            A letter – written in good faith – to an MP, is used to score points.

            This is the kind of failure to hear, or respond appropriately, by our representatives that leads to protests. Their representative has made it clear to them that not only do they not represent them – they do not even respect them.

            (If anyone else knows how to find Deborah Russell's tweet, I would appreciate them posting it here. The comments are indicative of the coming division).

              • Molly …
                27 February 2022 at 4:20 pm

                Thanks, Belladonna.

                How did you find it, if it doesn't take too much time to explain?

                • Belladonna …
                  27 February 2022 at 6:00 pm

                  Opened up D Russell's twitter feed (using Google, rather than an app) and scrolled down.

                  About 4-5 pages in. Then clicked on the tweet and copied the link.

                  • Molly …
                    27 February 2022 at 6:08 pm

                    blush

                    That was simple – and obvious.

                    I was reluctant to spend a lot of time on her posts which seem to be wordle scores, pictures of her dietary intakes and other frippery. I thought there might be a way to just search her thread.

                    Thanks for taking the time. I'll bookmark next time.

                    • Belladonna …
                      27 February 2022 at 6:48 pm

                      There are search tools in Twitter, but you need to have some idea of the terms used in the original tweet.

                      Once I knew that she'd used the word "mailbox" in the original tweet, I could use this search string in the search box

                      @BeeFaerie mailbox

                      Which looks for all tweets by D Russell (handleBeeFaerie) with the word mailbox.

                      First result is the one you're looking for.

                      Note: because she doesn't use the word "letter" in her tweet – searching for 'letter' won't find this one.

                    • Molly …
                      28 February 2022 at 9:30 am

                      @weka. Thanks, bookmarked.

            • Tony Veitch (not etc.) 13.1.2.1.1.2
              27 February 2022 at 7:59 pm

              put up a disdainful tweet

              Well, that beats me. I didn't find anything disdainful in her reply. She could have ridiculed much more particularly the points made in the letter!

              • Anker …
                27 February 2022 at 10:24 pm

                Should an MP be showing a constituents letter, even if they do remove their name? I would be pretty pissed off if this happened to me.

                Where there other comments other than about her memory stick?

                Deborah Russell seems to not realize her role is to listen to all constituents (unless they are very abusive or threatening) and treat them with respect. Even if she disagrees with them. She behaved very badly on the submissions committee for self id or conversion practices……Someone needs to remind her she is their to serve and the people pay her salary

              • Molly …
                28 February 2022 at 9:28 am

                "Well, that beats me. I didn't find anything disdainful in her reply. She could have ridiculed much more particularly the points made in the letter!"

                'Could' and 'should' are two different concepts.

                I expect professionalism and restraint from our representatives. It's easy in this case. No public post on ANY letters received in your capacity as MP.

          • Shanreagh 13.1.2.1.2
            27 February 2022 at 5:14 pm

            I agree. PM started a while back talking about MIQ, borders, travel. Many of us expected that once we were through the upsurge and down the other side of Omicron more details/dates would be known about ending the mandates.

            Agree with Observer.

            The PMs response has been focussed early on in the protest, on the big issue facing NZ, Omicron and then later the big issues of Omicron and Russia/Ukraine. I think her response to ignore has been a good one so far. Time will more than likely overtake any relevance the protest may have had. Mandates and other health precautions will be lifted when we are able to health-wise and not because of some clamour in Parliament Grounds.

            As far as I am aware the PM of Canada did not meet the trucker convoy and they had more obvious leaders, I am not even sure that the Ottawa Provincial govt leader met them.

            The more odd the protestors get the more the strategy to leave them alone is wise.

            The oddest part of the convoy planning is to start it before we had really started with Omicron let alone been through it and seen a tardy govt. That timing has seen many people scratch their heads and say 'well if they are trying to make a point they sure picked an weird time to make it'.

            The convoy is overseas focussed & possibly funded. Its supporters will have been reading about countries such as US, Canada and UK who are well through their omicron surges lifting precautions and so illogically asked why not NZ?

          • Anker 13.1.2.1.3
            27 February 2022 at 10:19 pm

            The govt also backtraced on kids who are unvaxed not being able to play sport

  14. Belladonna 14
    27 February 2022 at 1:40 pm

    This is what the organizers of the Auckland Domain occupation are saying on Facebook

    https://www.facebook.com/AucklandSupportConvoy2022/

    We are a peaceful and lawful protest. We want to win the public opinion. We do this by being above reproach in every way. We want the police on our side. The media is watching. Be sensible. No violence or aggression or behaviour that will let the team down. Stay sober. Respect the land. Respect people, their opinions, and their mask/jab status.

  15. Muttonbird 15
    27 February 2022 at 2:16 pm

    So they've installed toilets which flush straight into Wellington Harbour.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/wellington/127900687/occupation-latest-plumbing-installed-to-flush-sewage-into-wellington-grates

    Other people would cop 5 or 6 figure fines for this.

    • Matiri 15.1
      27 February 2022 at 2:36 pm

      Filthy, selfish behaviour all round.

    • Molly 15.2
      27 February 2022 at 2:40 pm

      “Other people would cop 5 or 6 figure fines for this.”
      I don't know, is that true?

      More than 30 Auckland beaches unswimmable due to high risk of illness – Newshub

      Auckland's worst beaches: Urgent rates rise required, worst-polluted sites ranked

      'Fines' seem to be limited to Auckland ratepayers:

      A push to raise Auckland's water quality targeted rate (WQTR) by up to 5 per cent every year for the next decade would mean by 2030/31 the average residential property would be paying $94 to fix the city's legacy sewerage system.

      The average business would be paying $435 in water quality rates in a decade's time.

      The WQTR was introduced in 2018 to pay for the separation of Auckland's legacy stormwater infrastructure that regularly becomes overflowed with sewerage after rain events because of shared pipes between the two systems.

      And Watercare itself?

      Watercare refuses to name companies illegally dumping contaminants in water – Herald:

      Just over half of the tests were conducted by companies themselves, with the rest carried out by Watercare.

      No company had been fined or prosecuted for trade waste breaches in the past 10 years, but non-compliance companies did have to pay for testing and site visits, Smuts said.

      But the Watercare data illustrated the extent of the problem and councils' lack of ability to do anything of real consequence about it, Forest and Bird spokesperson Tom Kay said.

      The fact there had been no consequence for those companies in terms of fines or anything like that was concerning, Kay said.

      • Muttonbird 15.2.1
        27 February 2022 at 3:41 pm

        Why don't you give it a crack? Let us know what the council does.

        First two links concern ageing infrastructure, not illegal sewerage connection, so I have no idea what your point is, other than to defend the parliament protesters whenever you can.

        • Molly 15.2.1.1
          27 February 2022 at 4:04 pm

          Auckland Council – while funding ATEED – has knowingly let the sewage pollution onto Auckland beaches for decades. The priority of funding has not been to address it. I have friends living on one of those beaches working to monitor and report on contamination to council. Community led and implemented, credit claimed by council. We send sewerage into harbours often. It may also be true that even if they connected to the soil pipe it will end up in the harbour anyway, just takes a detour through the waste water system.

          That repeated failure of the authorities responsible quite rightly deserves scorn and pressure to remedy, but that's not being expressed here.

          What I am getting at, is addressing the constant critique of protestors – on a left wing blog – for actions of an occupational protest. Why wouldn't they connect up toilets to improve conditions? I know its illegal, but aren't all protests?

          I have been on protests, and read articles that discuss everything from the clothing worn, the presence of children, the motley crew that attends, but pays little content or attention to the voices of many who are there.

          I despair over the necessary changes required to address climate change, if we can't make provision for those, who for whatever reason, are feeling marginalised to the point of protest. Inequality of experience, and impact is driving this division. It is also facilitated by social media and algorithms that we know lead to binary positions.

          Do you want to resolve this situation, or just be on the winning side?

          • Muttonbird 15.2.1.1.1
            27 February 2022 at 4:21 pm

            I have offered a solution. That is to move the portaloos outside the cordon where they can be serviced.

            • Molly 15.2.1.1.1.1
              27 February 2022 at 4:25 pm

              I was talking about resolving the whole situation, rather than than sanitary one. But kudos for the suggestion.

              The harder question is:

              How do we repair the divide between NZers without contributing to it?

              • Shanreagh …
                27 February 2022 at 5:28 pm

                I am not sure that there is a divide, I know they say there is. and if there is one it will be of short duration. Those who were conscientious objectors came back into their communities after the war. The concern about them was time focussed, once the time had passed…

                The COs did have an advantage though. They had to appear before a Tribunal that tested the validity & sincerity of their beliefs. Those who did not go to war had an independent body saying these are sincere beliefs but are hurtful beliefs when we are at war.

                The protestors are at a disadvantage in that their beliefs have not been tested for validity. We have seen all manner of CT beliefs ranging from trackers in the vaccines……masks give you lung cancer etc etc. I think had they had to appear before someone for their mask or vaccine exemptions then the fact that someone else had attested to the validity of their beliefs would have been a benefit.

                I think once the mandates are no longer needed and are lifted the more reasonable will just get back

                The ones I worry about are those referred to in this report. The ones with clear mental health needs.

                https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300526493/no-place-for-kids-police-officer-talks-about-life-on-the-frontline-of-the-protest

                • Belladonna …
                  27 February 2022 at 6:09 pm

                  I'm sorry, but the conscientious objectors were not welcomed back into the community. I was born well after WW2 (as were, I suspect most here), and I remember the comments, suspicion and distrust expressed about the conschies.

                  It wasn't an everyday topic of conversation, of course, time had passed – but there was a strong undercurrent. And was very strongly felt/held by those who'd lost husbands/brothers/sons in the war.

                  I can remember my Dad saying the brave men volunteered to be stretcher bearers – the cowards went to the camps.
                  Now, I'm not arguing that's true – but that opinion was mainstream for many, many years after the war.

                  • Shanreagh …
                    28 February 2022 at 8:35 am

                    My point was that they did not have to talk to the PM afterwards. They just went to the camps and then came back home and melted back into life after the war. Feelings were high while the war was on.

                    Feelings are high here but that is no reason to put some sort of veneer that their protest/occupation/s have justification and then to compound this by seeing the PM.

                    They made their decision. All decisions have consequences and these consequences were known, by making their decisions they accepted the consequences.

                    Perhaps a better example where the protest was more evenly spread, was the Springbok tour and where the antis/pros faced split families too. The antis or pros made their decisions, stuck to them and did not seek to see the PM. Life goes on with me vowing never to watch Rugby especially at All Black level and my bro in law giving a mental shiver and saying what happened at Hamilton……trails off.

                    • Belladonna …
                      28 February 2022 at 10:39 am

                      Yeah. My point is that feelings were high after the war, for decades (if not generations).
                      To say that they melted back into the community is just wrong.

                      And, there are still families (especially in rural NZ) who don't speak to each other because of the Springbok Tour.

          • mpledger 15.2.1.1.2
            27 February 2022 at 4:52 pm

            There is no resolution to this situation. The protesters have given a set of demands that are impossible to satisfy and would be irresponsible to satisfy.

    • weka 15.3
      27 February 2022 at 2:57 pm

      have to say that one riles me. I'm also aware that the police actions have made getting the portaloos serviced harder, so this is probably a reaction to that. Withholding basic essential services like this is not a good idea.

      • Jenny how to get there 15.3.1
        27 February 2022 at 3:06 pm

        yes

      • Muttonbird 15.3.2
        27 February 2022 at 3:14 pm

        Portaloos should be relocated outside the cordon. Problem solved.

        • Jenny how to get there 15.3.2.1
          27 February 2022 at 4:31 pm

          The biggest danger to avoid when fighting monsters is to not become a monster.

          weka

          27 February 2022 at 2:57 pm

          have to say that one riles me. I'm also aware that the police actions have made getting the portaloos serviced harder, so this is probably a reaction to that. Withholding basic essential services like this is not a good idea.

          Reply

          To solve the sanitation problem, and protect the harbour, the government could have supplied and maintained portaloos. This would have been the 'Kind' thing to do, and should have been done from day one. Instead Trevor Mallard adopted a medieval siege mentality.

          Now Mallard wants to permanently fence off this area and make it a permanent no-go zone.

          In my opinion the forecourt of parliament should be a public commons, not the private fiefdom of the Speaker of the House.

          …When the protesting cries for freedom die away, one legacy will be fewer freedoms, in the form of a security fence to restrict access to Parliament Grounds….

          …..Plans to build a fence protecting Parliamentary complex are underway, well-placed sources told Stuff.

          Such a move would be promoted by Speaker Trevor Mallard, rather than Cabinet ministers.

          “Cabinet has no plans to build a fence around Parliament,” a government spokesman told Stuff on Sunday.

          Public access to the gardens – a tourist attraction and favoured commuter walkway – will be dramatically curtailed, in a move akin to tightened airport security after the September 11 attacks in New York, or spectator fencing at world football stadiums…..

          Plans to erect Parliamentary fence, as protest lingers

          Kevin Norquay05:00, Feb 20 2022

          The right to protest should be sacrosanct. The blocking of Wellington city streets with illegally parked vehicles is not sacrosanct and is unprecedented in protest history.

          I have always said that if their cars were towed, as they should have been – deprived of their camper vans and caravans and other vehicles, this glamping protest would have probably petered out by now. Any remaining hard core protesters prepared to stick it out in tents, as long as they don't impede the freedom of the people of Wellington from going about their business, or interfere in the running of parliament, or put their shit in the harbour, let them be.

          Why is this taking so long?

          ….The police are "well advanced" with plans to remove the vehicles that are blocking streets in Wellington's city centre, [Superintendent] Parnell said.

          Vehicle owners have so far resisted requests to move the vehicles, he added.

          Police say anti-mandate protest at Parliament 'unprecedented'

          6:07 pm on 10 February 2022

          Yes this Right wing protest is unprecedented, but I know for a fact that Extinction Rebellion had a mass hands around the parliament protest planned for this year.

          And if the government (of whatever stripe) still remains captive of the fossil fuel lobby then the Left may have to take from this precedent.

          If Mallard gets his way, protest on the forecourt of parliament will be a thing of the past, and our democracy will be poorer for it.

    • Rosemary McDonald 15.4
      27 February 2022 at 4:48 pm

      So they've installed toilets which flush straight into Wellington Harbour.

      No. They haven't.

      From your link.

      This is clearly an illegal connection – however given the volatility of the situation in the area around Parliament we have been advised not to put the health and safety of our staff at risk by the police who are managing the situation on-site.

      “We also note that the connection to the wastewater system means the sewage is not entering the harbour. We are discussing the issue with Police and other agencies and considering our options,” the council said on social media.

      Understandable that in your haste to post this shock/horror/scandal Stuff piece complete with scary photo you neglected to read past the large font/bold headlines.

      So many folks do this so many times. MSM wins again.

      I watched these tradespeople do this awesome work yesterday on a livefeed on Facebook. Of course there were gags being made along the lines of 'Hey, Jacinda, you know who to call when you want those houses built'.

      If anyone gives a shit…the korero is that the police are/were deliberately impeding access for the truck servicing the portaloos. From what I can ascertain a 'deal' was struck to remove a good number of parked vehicles in exchange for unimpeded access for service vehicles for sewage and rubbish removal. The police did not uphold their side of the agreement. I am not glued to faceache so it is possible I have this completely wrong…but this was the gist from two different sources.

      The river of filth have requested footage from the dozens of security cameras around the area to 1) identify who it was that threw the 'acid' into the eyes of the policemen the other morning, and b) to identify the persons who threw the poo the other morning. The security and admin at the protest sincerely want them identified and removed.

    • The Chairman 15.5
      27 February 2022 at 10:56 pm

      So they've installed toilets which flush straight into Wellington Harbour.

      No. Stuff were suggesting they did – but they didn't.

      It's piped into the sewage. Done by tradies.

  16. Reality 16
    27 February 2022 at 2:57 pm

    Cannot understand the Wellington City Council/Wellington Regional Council allowing the protesters to put in street toilets. Right by the Wellington Cathedral and the High Court. Imagine if everyday Joe or Mary Bloggs started to do that. Police would be called and a hefty fine dished out.

    • weka 16.1
      27 February 2022 at 3:04 pm

      Protesters have built two fully functioning toilets at the corner of Hill St and Molesworth St which apparently connect to the city’s pipes

      Greater Wellington Regional Council chairman Daran Ponter said the council would investigate the plumbing along with iwi, police, the Wellington City Council, and Wellington Water.

      “We are deeply disturbed by the images and the apparent reckless disregard for the impacts on Wellington Harbour, our mana whenua partners, and all those who use the inner harbour – based on the possibility that the discharge may be going directly to storm water,” he said.

      Wellington City Council spokesman Richard MacLean said the council would not send staff down to check on the situation due to safety concerns.

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/wellington/127900687/occupation-latest-three-protesters-in-hospital-with-covid-sewage-down-city-drains

      Sounds like WCC need to talk to the police pretty damn fast about getting some protection to go do their job.

      • Molly 16.1.1
        27 February 2022 at 3:25 pm

        The article is not clear about whether the connection has been made to stormwater rather than blackwater drains. It just relates the destination if the connection was made to stormwater drains.

        Given the organisational and trade skills on evidence at the protest site, I'd say it's possible they have identified and made the right connection for the flushing toilets. We'll see.

        • Robert Guyton 16.1.1.1
          27 February 2022 at 3:31 pm

          It's illegal to connect to sewerage pipes without consent.

          I reckon.

        • Brigid 16.1.1.2
          27 February 2022 at 5:33 pm

          "I'd say it's possible they have identified and made the right connection for the flushing toilets."

          I can't imagine they could identify sewage lines without drainage plans of the area, and very much doubt there are points along these lines where one could simply connect to the existing line. Sewage lines aren't designed to be so conveniently accessible.

          I think, Molly, you give them too much credit for having more intelligence than a gnat

          • Rosemary McDonald 16.1.1.2.1
            27 February 2022 at 5:36 pm

            Brigid…the people doing the work are actual plumbers and drainlayers. And it'd be pretty obvious once they lifted the cover whether it was a sewer or a stormwater pipe.

            • joe90 16.1.1.2.1.1
              27 February 2022 at 5:47 pm

              Lift the lid in that part of town and odds are they'd have an actual shower of shit to bathe in.

              The pipe is pressurised to move the CBD’s sewage uphill to connect to the main Interceptor pipe which delivers wastewater to the Moa Point sewage treatment plant.

              The burst pipe sent sewage across the central city street and has left a foul odour in the area for several days.

              https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/wellington/124098301/explainer-understanding-wellingtons-pipes-crisis

            • Brigid 16.1.1.2.1.2
              27 February 2022 at 6:09 pm

              Rosemary you can call them what you like; bushwhackers and sheep shaggers if you like. What you call them is irrelevant.

              In the photo in comment 15 have a look at the pipe that leads to the Council connection. Would you think there is enough fall to avoid blockages? There's no obvious fresh water connection. How are toilets being flushed.

              It's interesting that you accept the council spokesman's assurance that no harm will be done to the harbour by this installation.

              • mauī …
                27 February 2022 at 7:26 pm

                Is there anything in that photo that makes you think this was done by amateurs?

                By the looks they're using the right size pipe and they've even vented their sewer line. There's also a hose connection going in for water presumably.

          • Molly 16.1.1.2.2
            27 February 2022 at 5:56 pm

            During our renovation the contractor broke into the soil pipe.

            It was recognisable even to those of us without a drainage certification.

            Usually avoid these posts, because it's a litany of…

            "Oh, look how stupid, illegal, right-wing, … "they" are today. Don't you agree?"

            Followed by a chorus of hallelujahs.

            Any contribution that doesn't fit this pattern, is dismissed without consideration or ignored even when the truth of harm is apparent.

            Critiques of MIQ and testing procedures were also dismissed, as if improvement was capitulation.

            I'm compliant with government mandates, and am one of those whose comorbidities put them at higher risk of negative outcomes. My personal situation has had enough buffers to absorb the impact.

            I remain empathetic for those who, for whatever reason, did not have that resilience. Where's the TS discussion on how they are to be considered?

            • Rosemary McDonald 16.1.1.2.2.1
              27 February 2022 at 6:51 pm

              I remain empathetic for those who, for whatever reason, did not have that resilience. Where's the TS discussion on how they are to be considered?

              Your empathy is noted and appreciated Molly.

              I have, in good faith, tried to explain candidly to the inhabitants of TS why Peter and I have chosen not to partake of the Pfizer product.

              I got the reaction I expected, tbh. Apart from a couple of exceptions.

              I do believe that other than Bill, I am the only 'regular' who has confessed to not having partaken of the shots. I suspect there are others. One wonders why people are too frightened to speak up. Are we on the Left not kind?

              Do we not have sufficient scientific nous around here to have realized months ago that once it was shown that the vaccinated can pick up and transmit the virus (and at similar viral loads) as well as unvaccinated (rendering the product's main benefit being reducing severity of symptoms) any compulsion/coercion to vaccinate is not only unjustified but more than a little disturbing in its intensity.

              And very, very few here have commented on why we have had no instruction from our Public Health authorities on what we can do to support our immune systems and deal with the early stages of infection so we are less likely to become seriously unwell.

              I am more than happy to engage with others on the whys and wherefores, but the total absence of respect for one's choices as well as generalized contempt for anyone not toeing the line…an entertaining diversion perhaps, but not something I'd take seriously again.

              I get folks being fearful…we were until we looked at the stats from overseas.

              And Omicron is different. Billy boy is right…it is the vaccine they should have made.

              All in all…if nothing else, this Covid caper has shown people in their true colours…albeit if most deliver their vitriol from behind the safety of a pseudonym. (You're one of the very few who are invariably respectful, Molly, even when it is not earned. wink)

              • Molly …
                28 February 2022 at 9:22 am

                Didn't realise how tribal the left could be. Missing the conversations that added to my knowledge and broadened perspectives.

                I think the rigid stances taken on a constantly changing situation are related to trying to maintain a semblance of control where there is little or none. whatever it is, we have to travel it together till it ends..

                Doesn't bode well for dealing with the hard stuff with no finishing date: climate change, inequality, housing, the health system… Wonder who we will abandon then?

                Take care, Rosemary. Look forward to seeing you on the other side of this pandemic.

      • Rosemary McDonald 16.1.2
        27 February 2022 at 4:54 pm

        “We also note that the connection to the wastewater system means the sewage is not entering the harbour. We are discussing the issue with police and other agencies and considering our options,” the council said on social media.

        Stormwater enters the harbour. Wastewater goes to the sewage treatment station.

        Although with the geriatric condition of Welly's pipes….

        Seems like they have committed the heinous crime of failing to get the appropriate paperwork…and cross the palm of the appropriate bureaucracy.

  17. Jenny how to get there 17
    27 February 2022 at 3:01 pm

    I am guessing here, forgive if I am wrong, But the yoga and the healing crystals didn't work?

    …..Three occupiers opposing Covid-19 mandates have been hospitalised with the virus.

    ….Regional Public Health medical officer of health Craig Thornley said it was hard to get accurate Covid-19 numbers from the occupation because some there were unwilling to be tested. Total figures may never be known, he said.

    However, there were seven known Covid-19 cases linked to the occupation. Two of those were hospitalised in the Wellington region and one was outside Wellington, he said.

    ….Police on Sunday issued a warning: “Aggressive behaviour from protesters, extremely poor sanitary conditions, the confirmed presence of Covid-19, and the number of unwell people amongst the group all make for an unsafe, and unpleasant environment for anyone thinking of joining the activity.

    Occupation latest: Three protesters in hospital with Covid, sewage down city drains

    Tom Hunt, George Block and Sophie Cornish 14:28, Feb 27 2022

    If conditions at the protest camp deteriorate further, to take the pressure off Wellington Hospital, the government may have to consider setting up a disaster relief negative pressure medical triage tent on or near parliament grounds.

  18. Reality 18
    27 February 2022 at 3:37 pm

    Would normally never say this but hope the hospitalised protesters had a long long wait to be admitted through ED. Given the extreme disruption they have caused in Wellington without any concern for locals, businesses, children, bus schedules, teachers, and university students, they are very fortunate they have not been put in a tent outside, seeing they like camping so much.

    Apparently adding to the stench at squalor city is the rotting hay strewn around from two weeks ago.

    Not sure if this is fact or fiction, but have been told Molesworth Street New World has sold out of tinfoil.

    • Matiri 18.1
      27 February 2022 at 3:53 pm

      Wellington Hospital Chief Medical Officer on RNZ a few days ago:

      Tait said a temporary inpatient screening zone had been set up at the hospital.

      "Everyone is screened coming through and if you're considered high-risk, then you'll be off for a swab. If you're unvaccinated, that does put you into the high-risk group."

      He said if anyone refused a test they would be treated as if they were positive for Covid-19 and isolated.

      "If they refuse to wear a mask, then we put them into a separate area and basically shut the door."

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/461954/covid-19-ill-protesters-urged-to-stay-away-from-hospital

      Maybe the separate area is a tent outside…..

      • Rosemary McDonald 18.1.1
        27 February 2022 at 5:25 pm

        I posted the same RNZ article the other day. Two things popped out.

        1) If they are profiling potential swabees and those who are not 'vaccinated' are consider higher risk then can we rely on the data that distinguishes between vaxxed and unvaxxed admitted to hospitals? To be safe and fair, they should be swabbing everyone, surely?

        2) If you read on down the piece, Tait (and I won't call him "Dr" because he is an embarrassment to the calling) goes on to say that….

        …he was not aware of any patients who had yet needed to be isolated for refusing to wear a mask or be tested.

        …but hey, reality is maybe not so copy and pasteable.

  19. alwyn 19
    27 February 2022 at 3:53 pm

    I hope the organiser of the Auckland Gay Pride march, a gentleman named Max Tweedie, reads this post.

    Their march was planned for today, but was cancelled back in January for public health reasons. However, instead of saying that he thinks that they were correct in this he is frustrated because another march was held. He is, I'm sorry to say, behaving like a young child and is displaying an attitude that "It isn't fair!".

    He is quoted by the Herald as follows "Tweedie said it was galling the protesters were able to cross the bridge with no repercussions from police." and that "He said his organisation spends hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars on permits and traffic management."

    "It is frustrating … that the police will then treat that event that has just rocked up that's anti-science and that's threatening the health and safety Auckland – that they are treated kind of similarly.".

    Well my question to him is. Were you correct to cancel your own march? If so why are you upset that someone else went ahead and held theirs, even if it was ill-advised? It doesn't have any relevance to your own decision which surely wasn't made on the basis that you would cancel your march only if everyone else was banned from holding one as well.

    Just remember the parable "Virtue is its own reward". Well you were virtuous. Now forget it.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/pride-march-organiser-frustrated-by-anti-mandate-protest/HXH7PFEVFNUMZCUAFFQQE6AZ5

    • observer 19.1
      27 February 2022 at 4:07 pm

      He is simply expressing a growing public sentiment: why do we bother trying to do the right thing, when doing the wrong thing gets far more attention and no consequences?

      Let's take your "behaving like a young child" comparison. How about: seeking attention by misbehaving, learning that you can get away with it and so doing it some more. Want a parenting tip? Reward the troublemakers with lollies, and ignore the well-behaved ones, that always works.

      • alwyn 19.1.1
        27 February 2022 at 5:52 pm

        Of course. You are entirely correct.

        As in Luke 15:20 – 24?

        As far as rewarding the troublemakers go I reserved that for the misbehaving children of the neighbours. Fed them with lots and lots and lots of high sugar content lollies.

        smiley

        • observer 19.1.1.1
          27 February 2022 at 6:53 pm

          The essential point about the "prodigal son" is that he repented first, before he was welcomed and forgiven.

          If Brian Tamaki ever begs forgiveness for his sins and selfishness, I promise to welcome him with a feast and kill the fattest calf I can find.

          However this is unlikely as Tamaki believes he is God himself.

      • Anker 19.1.2
        27 February 2022 at 10:37 pm

        I do what I consider to be the right thing for me and my household. That is what I have control over

        I am triple vaxed, wear masks and am lucky enough to be able to pretty much isolate at the moment. It doesn't bother us hunkering down. We kind of like it. We are lucky in that way that we can do and it suits us. I also think by doing so we are causing less problems for others, i.e. by hopefully not getting sick.

        That is just us and our choice. Others will make their own choices now. I don't know anyone who is anti vax although have friends of friends etc. But I am stunned by how some people are operating at this stage in the pandemic. Out and about in crowds. etc. By this i mean people who are very vulnerable. But now I figure I have no control over their choices.

        BTW Molly really agree with many of your comments.

        And Rosemary thanks for being brave enough to provide accurate information, when so much stuff is flying around on this site.

  20. Peter 20
    27 February 2022 at 5:50 pm

    I'm waiting for the protest in Wellington to finish so a mass of students can occupy the site to protest about accommodation costs in Wellington.

    They can pitch their tents, there'll be few vehicles to worry about, a model for toilets has been tried. And having a large body of students there would enrich the inner city.

  21. Cricklewood 21
    27 February 2022 at 5:53 pm

    You'd have ask how police missed the toilets getting smuggled in… and the pipework takes bit of gear to tap into the waste water but well done.

    It's like Hogans Hero's in there… they'll be tunneling next.

  22. newsense 22
    27 February 2022 at 5:58 pm

    Waiting for the movie: The Unruly Tourists II Wellington Vacation.

  23. newsense 23
    27 February 2022 at 6:00 pm

    Steve Braunias must be involved at some point.

  25. Anne 25
    27 February 2022 at 7:19 pm

    "If anything is going to lose Labour the next election it is this. The 95% won't forget this light touch approach."

    Be careful Muttonbird, you'll be accused of right-wing thinking and treachery towards the left for daring to suggest the powers that be need to up their game.

    Having said that, I'm sure you're as horrified at the level of the attacks on the police officers at the site as I am. I think we have the bulk of the Force on our side in this argument.