Daily Review 20/09/2017

Written By: - Date published: 5:30 pm, September 20th, 2017 - 256 comments
Categories: Daily review - Tags:

Daily review is also your post.

Also for discussion of tonight’s poll and the last Ardern English debate on TVNZ 1 at 7pm.

256 comments on “Daily Review 20/09/2017”

  1. mickysavage 2

    New poll and final debate on TV one tonite …

  2. weka 3

    “If Winston Peters is part of a Labour-led government, his party won’t support plans to introduce new taxes, like the planned water tax”

  3. james 4

    WAHOO !!!!!!

    One news poll shows a great position for National.

    https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/new-poll-national-takes-huge-lead-in-bombshell-1-news-colmar-brunton
    Nats up 6

    Labour down 7

    SO SO SO SO HAPPY !!!

    Full resilts:
    1 News Colmar Brunton poll:
    NAT 46% (+6),
    LAB 37% (-7),
    GRN 8% (+1),
    NZF 5% (-1),
    TOP 2% (NC),
    MAO 1% (NC),
    ACT 0.3%

    Don’t know 7%, Refused 6% (+1). Fieldwork conducted 16-19 September

    • james 4.1

      And One news have said that this is in line with internal polling by both Labour and National.

      • mickysavage 4.1.1

        Do you agree that in politics telling lies should be rewarded?

        • ScottGN 4.1.1.1

          To be fair though micky Labour need to shoulder some of the blame for this. They should have been expecting the attacks over tax and had it all shut down before the campaign started.

          • mickysavage 4.1.1.1.1

            I’m struggling with the criticism. Basically your premise is they should have anticipated National would make shit up and should have been ready to reply. Parties should be punished for making shit up, not rewarded.

        • Ed 4.1.1.2

          Won’t answer…

        • alwyn 4.1.2.1

          Bolger had it best
          “Bugger the pollsters”.

          On the other hand with the crazy way the polls have been going we can expect equally mad swings in the final Newshub-Reid poll when it comes out. That one will have Labour up 7 from 37 to 44 and National down 7 from 47 to 40 or something like that.
          They’ll also reverse the Green/NZF vote percentages.
          Does anyone understand what is going on?

      • Timbeau 4.1.3

        What kind of demented troll stalks a left leaning website at 6.01pm to gloat in unhinged and delirious glee at others’ potential misfortune? You should be ashamed of yourself and go book an appointment with a shrink

    • Muttonbird 4.2

      I think your colostomy bag has burst.

      • james 4.2.1

        A leak perhaps – but again I remain cautious for the actual results on the day.

        But this is a very positive sign.

        • Hanswurst 4.2.1.1

          Not really. It puts them 1 percentage point ahead of Labour + Greens. Given the margin of error, that could just as easily be reversed. If National happen to be just a bit lower, and especially if NZ 1st don’t get in, they lose.

          Having said that, the enrolment stats could equally mean that National will effectively poll higher. This poll really only says that it’s mighty close.

        • Muttonbird 4.2.1.2

          I just think your use of capitals is embarrassing. You seem to have the emotions of a child.

        • Ed 4.2.1.3

          Really positive for the homeless
          Really positive for the mentally unwell
          Really positive for the poor

    • Brokenback 4.3

      Don’t know 7% , Declined 6% , margin of error?
      It’s One news Poll, they’ve been consistently 4 to 6% out with final poll versus Votes cast over the last 3 elections.

  4. adam 5

    What is up with the Aussie politicians, they seem dead set on being the last country in the west to enact marriage equality.

    If the AFL, not exactly a bastion of progressive thinking is supporting why the heck are their politicians dragging their feet.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/2017/09/19/afl-gives-huge-yes-to-marriage-equality-with-new-sign-outside-headqaurters_a_23215736/?ncid=edlinkauhpmg00000003?benref=watoday

    Great wee video if you have the time, from a former leader of the liberal party (Tory) in Australia

    http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/gay-marriage/poll-shows-dip-in-gay-marriage-public-support-as-postal-survey-campaign-continues/news-story/d1685f813cf2592c367f7acfa4ce18b9

  5. PJ39 6

    Kiwis not as thick as Morgan thought

    • DoublePlusGood 6.1

      Kiwis are far thicker than Morgan could possibly imagine, if they elect a National government after their display of incompetence throughout this campaign.

    • DoublePlusGood 6.2

      Kiwis are far thicker than Morgan could possibly imagine, if they elect a National government after their display of incompetence throughout this campaign.

  6. Anne 7

    OK. I think CB is landline only. Few youth votes will be recorded except the tory twitletts still living at home with mummy and daddy. Add to that the Nat campaign of lying, cheating, deceiving, corrupt behaviour… and the moribund and ignorant voters fall for it yet again. As for the shallow, witless james’ of this world… karma will sort them in due course.

    • james 7.1

      So what if its landlines only – apparently in line with internal polling by both parties.

      Karma may be rewarding me – I will know Saturday night !

    • lurgee 7.2

      Sorry, stages of grief and all that, but you can’t keep smashing the voters like that and then expect them to vote for you.

      IF (big if) the poll is realised on Saturday and we end up with English & Co back in charge again, then Labour have to think pretty hard about why it happened. Sneering at the electorate as ‘moribund and ignorant’ isn’t going to help.

      You have to think why (if) they opted for National. After all, last week they were smart and engaged because the CB showed them supporting Labour.

      • Hanswurst 7.2.1

        Nah. Supporters of both parties are always calling each other idiots on no uncertain terms, and it’s nothing new. Unless they hold office or are running to do so, I don’t think it makes a blind bit of difference.

      • Sneering at the electorate as ‘moribund and ignorant’ isn’t going to help.

        The only party that’s ever done that is National and they keep getting voted back in on it. Hell, they’ve done it again this campaign by openly lying.

    • Ben 7.3

      It’s the trend that matters, not the method of polling

    • Phil 7.4

      There’s a big problem with the “young people don’t have cellphones” argument – it ignores the fact that young people have ALWAYS been hard to reach for opinion polling, even before cellphones became commonplace.

      The polling companies have had to deal with low response-rates amongst young people for many decades, and adjust their weightings and strategies accordingly. Cellphones probably make an already big problem a bit bigger, but if thats the main defence the left is going to rely on for polls today, it’s probably going to be a tough night on Saturday.

      • Anne 7.4.1

        … and adjust their weightings and strategies accordingly.

        So they say. I’m not convinced. If they do anything at all its highly questionable whether it is accurate.

        • Phil 7.4.1.1

          You’re entitled to be skeptical of whatever you want to be skeptical of, but the fact remains that the track record of polling companies in New Zealand, for at least the last couple of decades, has been pretty good.

          Polling is hard, but these are experienced professional companies that have every incentive to be right (as in correct) not ‘right’ (as in skewed).

          All I will say is this; if your belief that the left is going to win the election relies on believing polling is skewed against the left then, on balance of probabilities, you should prepare for a bad election night.

  7. millsy 8

    3 more years I guess. All over Rover.

    I may as well concede now. I knew this would happen. And it was the farmers wot won it.

    Labour has some serious shit to sort out starting Monday. And the Greens can pay themselves on the back all they want about rising to 8%, they are still going to be in opposition.

    • james 8.1

      I wish it was all over, but really I dont think you can write off a Labour lead government just yet.

    • mickysavage 8.2

      All this poll shows is that thing are still really unstable. I would not give up yet. Besides Labour/Greens are neck and neck with National. Even on these figures there is everything to aim for.

      • swordfish 8.2.1

        Yep … It’s deflating – no question about that – but it sure as hell aint over.

        Chin up, my bully-boys*. Jacinda’s got the vile sausage-sucking Tory Hun on the run ! Keep Fritzie in panic-mode and I’m sure we’ll all be in Berlin by lunchtime !

        * As in ‘John Bull’.

    • ianmac 8.3

      If the poll is right it would be the lies that National is telling which tip the balance. Fear and anxiety implemented by unscrupulous people seem to win in NZ.
      If the poll is right.
      We will do it yet!

    • Anne 8.4

      Labour has some serious shit to sort out starting Monday,

      The shit is: Labour don’t stand up and give back as good as they get. All this relentless positivity doesn’t work. The voters see it as a weakness. The majority of them are self promoting bigots and its time Labour woke up to reality. I’ve been banging on about it for years and so have plenty of others but they… just… won’t… listen.

      Oh, and they are still producing policy that’s way too complex. In statistical terms, half the voters have an IQ that is below the average but they seem unable to take that into account. Helen Clark understood and produced the simplistic pledge card in 2005 was it? Whatever, It saved her bacon.

      • Mickey Boyle 8.4.1

        ”In statistical terms, half the voters have an IQ that is below the average”, these are the people that vote for the left.

      • BM 8.4.2

        If Labour loses it’s because Labour fucked it up.
        Nothing about not attacking or been too nice, it will be because you’re trying to change too much stuff all at once and have spooked the horses.

      • Modnar 8.4.3

        Have to agree here. Positivity in this neoliberal race to the top goes part way. Sadly, the soft vote wants (as Hosking might say “rightly or wrongly”) cuthroat displays of strength. Jacinda will need to attack to beat those that are expert in the craft of bullshitting soft voters. Meanwhile, those most affected will suffer more. Sorry to be pessimisstic.

      • Infused 8.4.4

        Because it was weakness. Labour had no solid policies till jacinda gave labour a bump.

    • swordfish 8.5

      Well, I for one Welcome our new National Party Overlords !

      And I can assure Fräulein Bennett and Herr Joyce that I’m prepared to sing like a Canary, wildly naming names like an accused Communist at a 1951 McCarthyite Senate hearing.

  8. chris73 9

    Normally I’d be a lot more positive about this but my political antenna seems to be a bit wonKey at the moment however its probably not a good sign for Labour

    I just hope Labour can keep it seemly and not go to desperate measures over the next couple of days

    Full resilts:
    1 News Colmar Brunton poll:
    NAT 46% (+6),
    LAB 37% (-7),
    GRN 8% (+1),
    NZF 5% (-1),
    TOP 2% (NC),
    MAO 1% (NC),
    ACT 0.3%

    Don’t know 7%, Refused 6% (+1). Fieldwork conducted 16-19 September

    • I just hope Labour can keep it seemly and not go to desperate measures over the next couple of days

      Like National did with their smear campaign of lies, you mean?

      • chris73 9.1.1

        Labour made it far too easy for National, only have themselves to blame

        • Psycho Milt 9.1.1.1

          It’s always easy for people who flat-out lie to make you look bad.

          • chris73 9.1.1.1.1

            I wouldn’t be giving up so easily because the way this election has been going theres probably still time for something else to happen

            • Psycho Milt 9.1.1.1.1.1

              Oh, certainly not giving up – according to this poll, National’s on 46 % and Labour/Green on 45%. Only a mug would think they could pick the winner at this point.

        • ScottGN 9.1.1.2

          I’m inclined to agree with you on that.
          Quite a hefty 13% Don’t Know/Refused though.

          • Sans Cle 9.1.1.2.1

            Yup…..13% is a lot to play for…..who would be most inclined to refuse to say?
            Don’t lose heart people….get on the phone and talk to someone and convince them to vote.

        • Ben 9.1.1.3

          Agreed, and whilst Jacinda wanting to “have a conversation” about everything was initially hip, it soon became code for ‘lack of coherent policy’.

          • chris73 9.1.1.3.1

            Maybe its time for another…wait for it…here it comes…”captains call”

            Interestingly enough a captains call is defined as (well by urbandictionary):

            A decision made unilaterally by a team leader without consulting colleagues, often a massive clusterfuck

            http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=captain%27s%20call

            • alwyn 9.1.1.3.1.1

              Another Captain’s call like the one little made you mean?
              I think it really is a bit to late to have another change of leader.

          • mickysavage 9.1.1.3.2

            Ben

            How about you spend time on the Labour site and see all of the policy that is there and then come back and say there is a lack of poverty.

            Why do people think that lying is a valid political weapon?

            • alwyn 9.1.1.3.2.1

              The Labour Party certainly don’t avoid it, do they?
              They have parroted on most of the year on how National supposedly cut the expenditure on health below what Labour had been doing. It was a clever lie but it was a lie for all that. They did it by taking the first year of the National Government as the base line, rather than taking the last year of the Labour Government.
              That way they could pretend that the massive increase in the 2009-2010 year never happened.

              • They have parroted on most of the year on how National supposedly cut the expenditure on health below what Labour had been doing. It was a clever lie but it was a lie for all that.

                And that would be you lying – again.
                So-called Budget mental health funding boost is a cut in real terms

                His analysis, carried out with the ASMS, indicated the health system’s publicly-funded mental health services in 2017/18 would receive just $18 million in extra funding. That’s an increase of about 1.2%, which works out to a cut in real terms. A 7.3% funding increase is needed in 2017/18 just to maintain the mental health services we already have, given client numbers are increasing at about 5% a year – and more money is needed if the Government wants to improve access to services.

                You really can’t help yourself in your defence of National psychopathic policies can you? Typical authoritarian follower. You’re one of the sheep that National relies upon not only to not question them but to defend them and you do it without fail.

                • alwyn

                  I have no idea what the situation is in this part of the health budget.
                  What I looked at was the total budget and what the Labour Party claims were.
                  They were false.
                  I don’t really have the time or inclination to look at this bit of the budget and the figures you are referring to, and you will note that I wasn’t talking about just this facet of the situation.
                  I was more interested in the whole picture.

                  • No, you’re simply defending National’s failure to provide enough health service, their cutting of the health budget in real terms.

                    • alwyn

                      I commented on this back in January, and what Labour had done to get their conclusion.
                      Have a look at these two links.
                      The first is Labours figures.
                      The second is what is wrong with their conclusions when they claim that National has cut spending from the levels Labour would have provided.
                      https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/nzlabour/pages/3092/attachments/original/1438062842/Report_-_Estimated_Core_Crown_Health_Expenditure_(2).pdf?1438062842

                      The Labour Green 2017 campaign launch


                      The CTU do the same thing
                      http://www.union.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Did-the-Budget-provide-enough-for-Health-2016.pdf
                      The effect of this is to pretend that the first year of the National Government was the norm rather than comparing their numbers with the final year of the Labour Government.

                    • The effect of this is to pretend that the first year of the National Government was the norm rather than comparing their numbers with the final year of the Labour Government.

                      The first year of the National government would be the last year of the Labour government’s final budget.

                    • alwyn

                      For DTB 12.06am

                      “The first year of the National government would be the last year of the Labour government’s final budget”

                      That is quite true. National was in Government for most of that year. However it wasn’t that year they used as the base, normal, year

                      The 2008 election was on November 8 2008.
                      The last year of the Labour Government was the 2008-2009 year. It covered the year from 1 July 2008 to 30 June 2009.
                      http://www.treasury.govt.nz/government/financialstatements/yearend
                      That was not the year they used as their base though. They used the expenditure in the 2009-2010 year which was the first year that the National Party budget of 2009 was in operation.
                      If you take the last Labour year as the base you find that the Health expenditure did rise under a National Government above the values for the end of the Labour one.

                      There was a very large increase in the 2009-2010 year even after you include inflation and demographic changes. National deserve the credit for that surely? Because of the way Labour requested the calculations all this increase was ignored.
                      Cunning isn’t it?

                  • McFlock

                    This sounds a lot like your lie about the greens wanting the oil pipeline to Auckland to be replaced by shipping.

                    You never actually supported that claim with evidence, either – you just put a link against oil and a link in favour of shipping freight together.

                    • alwyn

                      I didn’t actually claim that the Green Party had done that.
                      What I said was that they didn’t appear to like the environmental effects of the pipeline.
                      I also said that they were in favour of using coastal shipping to move goods around.

                    • McFlock

                      After a reference to the Rena, which involved a significant oil spill.

                      oil spill + disliking oil pipeline + in favour of coastal shipping to move “goods” = another disingenuous tory lie.

        • Draco T Bastard 9.1.1.4

          Um, no – National’s lying is to blame.

  9. Glenn 10

    What happens if NZ 1st don’t make it?
    Serious question
    Who is better off?

    • Carolyn_nth 10.1

      Andrew Chen reckons if NZF doesn’t make it

      NAT 60, LAB 49, GRN 10, MAO 2, ACT 1 in a 122 seat Parliament based on the latest CB poll’s numbers.

      • ScottGN 10.1.1

        That assumes the Māori Party win at least one seat. If they don’t then their party vote gets wasted too.

        • Keeping Stock 10.1.1.1

          The Maori Party will win at least two seats, via Te Ururoa Flavell and Howie Tamati, who was 13 points ahead of Adrian Rurawhe a couple of weeks ago. They may get enough party votes to get Marama Fox in as well, but at this stage I would guess not.

      • Muttonbird 10.1.2

        Gawd, what an awful (or great) outcome that would be. Imagine a dirty deal in Epsom to a clearly very stupid David Seymour balancing NZ’s parliament.

      • McFlock 10.1.3

        yeah, but if the 1% off nz1 goes to Labour, it’s a hung parliament.

        And don’t forget the margin for error – it could be lab40% nat 44%.

        A few days out, it’s too close to call. I certainly didn’t expect that when Little stepped down, that’s for damned sure.

    • ScottGN 10.2

      If NZFirst don’t make it on those numbers there would be 7% wasted vote which would probably be enough for Nat/Act to govern alone. A sobering thought.

    • alwyn 10.3

      “Who is better off?”
      That is a very easy one to answer.
      NEW ZEALAND is.
      And yes, I do think that would be worth shouting about.

    • Andre 10.4

      Everybody is better off if NZ1st don’t make it! Then nobody has to deal with Winston.

      But in terms of who forms the government, that depends on whether Nats plus clingons or Labour/Greens get more of the votes above the threshold. The Maori Party may end up the deciders.

      So if you’re tossing up whether to vote Nats or Winnie, go for Winnie. If you’re tossing up Labour or Greens vs Winnie, then Labour or Greens.

    • lurgee 10.5

      What happens if NZ 1st don’t make it?

      I try very hard to lament the undemocratic wasted vote while punching the air and and dancing like a jalopy.

      • BM 10.5.1

        Dancing like a jalopy?

        • lurgee 10.5.1.2

          A phrase coined by my old friend Bob in our glory days at Stirling University in the 90s. He was trying to express his disapproval of Ecstasy, because it made you “Dance like a jalopy to really stupid music.”

          Bob had a way with words, usually unintentionally.

          Both participants in that conversation are now dead – the raver had some sort of bad reaction to E (Bob didn’t think to warn him of that) and Bob himself died a couple of years ago from blood poisoning in India.

          .. all our yesterdays have lighted fools
          The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
          Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player,
          That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
          And then is heard no more.

          Ah, mortality! But at least Bob’s curious genius will live on a little longer.

          • BM 10.5.1.2.1

            Bob lives on.

          • cleangreen 10.5.1.2.2

            Hey Lurgee,

            Put it up on Youtube so we can learn that dance.

            Oh by the way I never believe polls and the only poll that counts is the once Saturday.

            We all said that the UK and the US election polls got it all wrong so it is quite likely that it will hapen here too.

            • lurgee 10.5.1.2.2.1

              Seeing it would immediately require an immediate SAN check. Failure would result in the loss of 1d100 San points, and even those passing would still lose 1d10 SAN.

      • Glenn 10.5.2

        And they call it democracy? Would prefer STV.

    • Colville 10.6

      Glen
      If nzf don’t win northland then Nats get in alone

  10. BM 11

    National could actually end up governing alone, how crazy is that the apprentice does better than the master.

    Having said that no one has any idea until sometime late Saturday night.

    Peters will get over 5% though having come out against farmers getting stung with water taxes,

    That rather diminishes Labours chances as their only coalition party can be the greens.

    • Muttonbird 11.1

      And you will still be crawling around in the sewer as always.

    • National could actually end up governing alone…

      And aliens could actually invade and enslave us into their galactic empire, but I’m picking neither of those highly unlikely events is going to happen in the near future.

      • BM 11.2.1

        Am I guessing you’d probably prefer galactic alien enslavement to an outright win for National?

        Have to say, fuck that would be crushing for the left 4 wins to National each election the margin getting bigger.

        • Andre 11.2.1.1

          Haven’t we already had that? Key never did satisfactorily explain that shapeshifting reptilian thing he had going.

        • SpaceMonkey 11.2.1.2

          I don’t see any difference between a National Government and alien enslavement.

        • Psycho Milt 11.2.1.3

          Am I guessing you’d probably prefer galactic alien enslavement to an outright win for National?

          That is a tough one, now you mention it.

    • Ross 11.3

      National could actually end up governing alone, how crazy is that the apprentice does better than the master

      Would you like to put your money where your mouth is? 🙂

      If you seriously think National could end up governing alone, I suggest you buy a Lotto ticket.

    • alwyn 11.4

      “sometime late Saturday night”.
      In terms of the election night result we will have a pretty good idea by about 8pm. There are so many early votes that will be counted before 7pm, and they tend to be similar to the final result.

      With the closeness of these numbers though I think we may be sitting around wondering for another couple of weeks. There are all the specials and the overseas voting to come after that.
      The official results aren’t due until 7 October. There could be a seat or two swinging then.

      • ScottGN 11.4.1

        In the last few elections National has typically lost a seat to the Greens with the recounts and overseas votes. That could be crucial this time round.

        • alwyn 11.4.1.1

          Yes, the Green Party do have a unique pattern of results.
          They have polling numbers of X% before the election. Then the drop to about 0.8X on election day. Then they go back up to 0.85X with the specials.
          NB I haven’t actually calculated the multipliers but the pattern is accurate.

    • cleangreen 11.5

      “That rather diminishes Labours chances as their only coalition party can be the greens.”

      Really! – when NZ First is so needed to form a labour lead government rather than a sellout Government?? The last time Labour come to power in 1999 it was a coalition of labour greens/NZ First so you are way out there.

      Didn’t you watch what Winston said at his interview with John Campbell the other night? – It was when John asked Winston if he could work with the greens – he said, “everythings negociable”.

      • alwyn 11.5.1

        I’m afraid your memory is failing you.
        The Government after the !999 election was comprised of Labour and the Alliance. Neither New Zealand First nor the Green Party were part of the Government.
        I am afraid you are way out there.

  11. The decrypter 12

    To the drink,– the drink.

  12. greywarshark 13

    Is it possible to have James banned for at least two weeks. His empty triumphalism doesn’t add anything to the discourse. I don’t see why he should be able to sort of start a flame war, and be politely allowed to dance around on our hopes for the future of NZ. So please mods can he be revued and take his tap dancing off to Kiwiblog!

    • JC 13.2

      And others!

      All the trolls seem to be creaming themselves tonight… Based on what? Yet another MSM Poll …

      “In this month’s issue of Personality and Individual Differences, a study was published that confirms what we all suspected: internet trolls are horrible people.”

      https://www.sott.net/article/286185-Internet-trolls-are-narcissists-psychopaths-and-sadists

      “In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting quarrels or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal, on-topic discussion,[3] often for the troll’s amusement.”

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

      • greywarshark 13.2.1

        About that troll definition. If you get a coven of any gender and say something that doesn’t fit their rigid ideas, it can upset them like hell. Like an innocent insect getting caught in a web you suddenly get attacked so – 1 can invoke an irrational response also 2, and some acceptable etiquette and display of manners is called for before rushing to invoke Rule 109 section 32 (a)(i) or similar in the in-group’s exposition.

        When the nuisance is repeated then irritation is justified.

    • srylands 13.3

      Whoa. Why do you think his tap dancing would be welcome at Kiwiblog? It is a place for serious debate, not for whooping and childish behaviour.

    • Ed 13.4

      +100000000000

      • greywarshark 13.4.1

        Ed That’s so childish! Just kidding and other witticisms. Got to keep up the irony factor.

    • Rosemary McDonald 13.5

      On the other hand…perhaps it is better he is here, where we can keep an eye on him, rather than him roaming the streets getting up to all sorts of evil doings.

      Cheer up folks….its a poll…and by definition
      .
      a hornless animal, especially one of a breed of hornless cattle.

  13. repateet 14

    At some stage more people have to realise that lying works. Being honest and truthful are old fashioned notions.

    Unless being sprawled on the road with the boots of liars stomping in your face is still seen as a noble position to be in.

    How did Turei’s honesty serve her and her party? How did the lack of honesty and hiding of the truth serve others?

    • chris73 14.1

      It wasn’t the honesty of Turie, it was how she came across that did the Greens in

      • weka 14.1.1

        it was still the right thing to do.

        • chris73 14.1.1.1

          She could have said the same thing in a different way and she’d still be (and the Greens would be on at least 15%) instead they might not even make it back and the parties image is forever tarnished

          • weka 14.1.1.1.1

            What do you mean in a different way?

            • chris73 14.1.1.1.1.1

              If she’d something like “I did this a long time ago and I’m sorry I felt I had to do it, I appreciated the support I received from the taxpayer and I paid the money back once I became a lawyer, I’m coming forward now to make sure no one else in my position has to do the same because something needs to change”

              Instead she came off as unappreciative and somewhat flippant, perception is everything

              • weka

                interesting. For me she came across as standing her ground in solidarity with beneficiaries. Not saying she didn’t make any mistakes, but that this was more important than appeasing the so called middle NZ.

                Paying the money back is very problematic. She wouldn’t have know how much it was, she could have been charged with fraud and had her law career put at risk. She still had a young child at that point. I think you’ve missed some critical parts of the story.

                • BM

                  She should have got that stuff sorted before she went public.

                  The fact that she didn’t is the reason she’s now out of politics, she’s an idiot and the countries far better off not having her in any sort of position where she could have power over others.

                  Turei well and truly darwined herself.

  14. One Anonymous Bloke 15

    Does the poll cover Judith Collins’ greed and corruption disrupting thousands of people’s travel plans?

    • Colville 15.1

      OAB
      wot?

    • srylands 15.2

      What the hell is that about? You are totally out of line making such a comment. You should withdraw and apologise.

      [lprent: Please spare me your unintelligent indignation. Please read his comment. There are many possible meanings to OAB’s statement.

      It could just be his opinion of Judith Collins that if she is dealing with anything it will be dodgy as fuck. You only have to read Dirty Politics to come to that conclusion.

      But certainly her orders as Minster or Energy have disrupted travel. For instance she could have put the priority on aircraft kerosene rather than 91 octane petrol and diesel. It is legitimate to query why a politician she would have done it this way.

      It could also deal with the renamed Oravida operation around Ruakaka with a reputation for playing fast and loose with rules that uses diggers to dig Kauri stumps, the one that would be a prime suspect if a digger did damage and she has a family connection to it is another. I’d question if she should be involved in any enquiry myself.

      That her husband operates Oravida and for whom she is known to have done what I consider amounts to a sales trip on the taxpayers dime for is another.

      Now these are all legitimate political questions that will be raised.

      I am sure that in the latter two that when the election is over and in the caretaker government that as a lawyer Judith Collins will see that she will properly recuse herself to allow a real investigation to take place as to the cause of the economic disaster of having the sole fuel line to Auckland cut.

      If you had half a brain, you would have figured that out yourself, and not wasted my time. OAB specialises in doing the needle intelligently and so he doesn’t get banned. You could do well to study his opaque technique for revving up simple minded right wingers into defending against what their guilty consciences feel that he must have been meaning.

      Please don’t waste my time again. ]

      • Muttonbird 15.2.1

        [deleted]

        [be a bit more careful please – weka]

        • Keeping Stock 15.2.1.1

          You have evidence of that?

          • Robert Guyton 15.2.1.1.1

            Keeping Stock -you were flushed out this time last election as an active player in National’s Dirty Politics campaign, to the extent that you had to kill of your own blog and scramble into damage control in your own community.
            Why are you here now? What do you hope to achieve by commenting on The Standard at this point? Do you think readers here don’t know about your close association with Farrar and Slater?

        • BM 15.2.1.2

          Muttonhead, think before you comment.

    • BM 15.3

      I’m sure lprent will be stoked have defamation papers served on him.

      [lprent: It isn’t defamation. Read it again. Where did he state a fact that was defamatory. Please don’t waste my time with billshit ]

  15. Ross 16

    Remember that National’s best ever result was 47.3% under Key in 2011. So we’re led to believe that after another 6 years and without Key, National has lost only 1%? I do admire the optimism of some Tories.

    • Andre 16.1

      But 4% went to the Cons last time around, and most of those have probably drifted back to the Nats.

    • james 16.2

      We will know on Saturday.

      Its either the optimism of the National supporters, or the delusion of he left to refuse to recognise it.

  16. alwyn 17

    I’m not sure that the Labour Party is spending it’s advertising money very wisely.
    I just had a look at KiwiBlog to see if Farrar had any comment on this result.
    The first thing I got was an ad for the Labour Party.
    I don’t think that there are really many votes Labour is going to gain from ads running there.

    • Muttonbird 17.1

      You getting those ads because you troll here. The computer thinks you are socially conscious.

    • Sans Cle 17.2

      lol, it’s not an ad “on” kiwiblog.They facilitate a platform to target you……and based on your internet usage…..Labour’s algorithm fits your Bill!

    • Oh, it’s well spent alright – how I laughed when I saw it! That phrase about capitalists being willing to sell you the rope you plan to hang them with came to mind.

  17. eco Maori/kiwi 18

    I miss all the real funny hard case Kiwi comedians like Tui Teka and Billy T James The Laughing Samoans Eteuati Ete and Tofiga Fepulea Fred Dagg / John Clarke OUR Kiwi comedians like them bring a tear to my eyes and I get a sore face.
    I’m just wondering why I have not seen these types of comedians on National TV in the last 8 years or so. Tammy Davis /Munter off Outrageous Fortune would make us laugh like them I’m sure there are many more out there Taika Waititi would be fucken funny but he is to busies . Maybe Taika could champion this cause to promote It. I’m sure Taika would have the influence to accomplish this.
    The soon to be Queen Knows that we all have sorrows in OUR hearts for her loss we just don’t want to bother her or put her off her campaign.
    I’m not even going to talk about what was first on the news as we all Know that come Saturday we will be celebrating a Labour Greens win so chin up I say everyone. Sorry I can not support Tops his policys don’t match my Ideals.

    • weka 18.1

      I follow Waititi on twitter, which is intermittent but humorous. Don’t have a TV so not sure what passes for Kiwi humour these days. I guess they’re all doing stand up somewhere. Or have their own whatever show that’s not straight comedy.

      • eco Maori/kiwi 18.1.1

        Well its not as good as the Kiwi humour we had a few years ago I don’t want to say to much as someone mite start crying

        • gsays 18.1.1.1

          Hi eco, try auckward love. It’s a webseries and its on tvnz on demand.

          I have also enjoyed ‘the katering show’ and ‘get krackin’.
          They are ozzy but still funny. The language can be a little savoury.

  18. weka 19

    Just catching up on the quakes in Invercargill and Wellington today. Is it just me or is the Geonet website not as user friendly as it used to be?

    • Carolyn_nth 19.1

      When were the quakes?

    • eco Maori/kiwi 19.2

      One would think that they could put a temporary fix on that pipe I have used them on water and kerosene is not that flammable WTF you just wrap it and band it up seen this fix many times It just has to be a fix till alternative supply is set up. There should have been a plan for this scenario. Some one needs to be sued over this because that is the only way we will find the truth on this fuck up.
      Its not rocket science!!!!!!!!!

    • Adrian 19.3

      Agreed Weka it’s a mess.

    • DoublePlusGood 19.4

      Yes, they spent lots of money on a web redesign to make it worse, and then refused to listen to complaints about how it was worse. It’s standard practice for state sector organisations these days.

      • weka 19.4.1

        fuck. Was just going to say to Adrian glad it’s not just me and I might give them some feedback, lol.

        I think the ways the public service has been monkey wrenched in the past 9 years is one of the biggest hurdles for a new govt.

    • Exkiwiforces 19.5

      To Weka and others,

      Try this website if you are having problems Geonet.

      http://quakelive.co.nz/

  19. mauī 20

    Fancy that, a couple of days out from the election National gets a massive poll turn around signalling to the voters they now have a chance. Utter billshit.

    • lurgee 20.1

      Oh, come on. You can’t blame everything on the Malevolent Right Wing Space Lizards. Maybe a lot of New Zealanders just prefer the idea of Bill English being in charge of stuff?

      • Muttonbird 20.1.1

        You do. That is for certain.

          • Muttonbird 20.1.1.1.1

            Your commentary suggests otherwise.

            • lurgee 20.1.1.1.1.1

              That’s down to your interpretation of my comments.

              • Muttonbird

                You are what other people see you as…

                Perhaps you are not good at communication online?

                • lurgee

                  Nah, you’ve developed an idée fixe and ignore contrary evidence.

                  • Muttonbird

                    Just using my intuition. You stated you haven’t voted Labour since the China FTA. This seems to be the crucial policy you have voted on for a decade or more yet you still back National’s import of Chinese capital.

                    • lurgee

                      You know there are more than two parties in New Zealand?

                      Why do you think I “back National’s import of Chinese capital”?

                    • Muttonbird

                      Because you unfailingly criticise the only alternative option.

                    • lurgee

                      ‘Unfailingly’?

                      I praised Ardern’s commitment to an inquiry into abuse of children in state care.

                    • Muttonbird

                      Go on. You’re just getting started now.

                    • lurgee

                      You said ‘unfailingly.’

                      I showed that wasn’t true.

                      Perhaps you are not good at communication online?

                    • Muttonbird

                      You are anti-Labour, end of story. How do you propose to effect any social change in New Zealand while being so anti-Labour? You are fighting yourself.

                    • lurgee

                      I am not ‘anti-Labour.’ I don’t vote for them because they don’t match my politics. And I criticise them when they make mistakes, which – alas- they do with depressing frequency. And I have no time at all for mindless cheerleaders and naive fools.

                      Still waiting for you to evidence the claim that I am “back National’s import of Chinese capital.” Or were you just making shit up on the internet?

                    • Muttonbird

                      I’m going by your posts which are unfailingly critical of Labour policy. Given the importance of Labour to changing the government, the only logical conclusion is that you are against changing the government.

                      I imagine your argument will be the argument of all pretend lefties – ‘it’s complicated’

                    • lurgee

                      Back to ‘unfailingly critical,’ even though I’ve already disproved that claim.

                      Since you’re recycling your doggerel, I’ll recycle mine.

                      I am not ‘anti-Labour.’ I don’t vote for them because they don’t match my politics. I criticise them when they make mistakes. Given people hereabouts like to view their mistakes as brilliant strategic moves (“Let’s make Cunliffe the leader!”) I’m rather busy.

                      By some obscure alchemy, you seem to construe that that as support for National. That’s your problem. Maybe you’re not as clever at comprehending things, and your intuition is not as good, as you like to think.

                    • In Vino

                      lurgee – I also see you as a conundrum. How do you want us to see you?

  20. Kat 21

    Tell you what Hosking is giving English a hard time in the leaders debate, I reckon he has had a recent epiphany!

  21. Roy 22

    Anyone watch Newshub? Gower gave an absolute slating to NAT. Comparisons with Trump and extreme in angle.

    They won’t be used to that.

    (Pity half the country’s voted, but oh well.)

  22. Ed 23

    Why doesn’t Hosking just ask English to leave and do the debating for National himself TVNZ – So biased.

  23. Glenn 24

    Thank goodness we don’t have exit polls.

  24. Union city greens 25

    Ardern’s worst debate performance.
    Just when she needed to be seen fighting the good fight, she looks flat.
    When asked about winston not supporting her water tax, why did she not counter about his super position and how that affects the nats?

  25. Carolyn_nth 26

    Final Colmar Brunton poll before 2014 election:

    Nat = 45
    Lab =25
    GP = 12
    NZF = 8
    Con = 4.5
    Maori = 1.6
    ACT =0.6

    Election result

    Nat = 47.04
    Lab =25.13
    GP = 10.7
    NZF = 8.66
    Con = 3.97
    Maori = 1.32
    ACT =0.69

    • ScottGN 26.1

      Most of the pundits Carolyn_nth accept that the Mana/Internet Party/Dotcom Moment of Truth debacle pushed a couple of percent National’s way in the last days.

      • Carolyn_nth 26.1.1

        OK. So then CB was pretty accurate.

        • ScottGN 26.1.1.1

          Probably. I’m not disputing the poll tonight really. It shows what we’ve always known – Lab/Greens pretty much equals National. The unknowables are what happens after that.

          • Carolyn_nth 26.1.1.1.1

            My memory is that the final 2014 election result was pretty close between Government bloc (Nat-ACT-Mao-UF and Lab-Gp and NZF on cross benches.

            So Lab-GP go into this election closer to Nats, and a lot depends on which way NZF swings – as has been indicated in polls all this term.

      • weka 26.1.2

        how so?

    • Bearded Git 26.2

      yes but there was the damaging moment of truth after that poll

  26. Imodium 27

    I keep hearing how National have had 9 years to fix everything -this would imply everything was broken when they took over from labour????

    • Muttonbird 27.1

      No. That they started fucking it up from day one.

    • cleangreen 27.2

      What an odious comment you made imodioum shame on you.

      National have truly fucked up this country by conducting a mean arsed austerity scheme as bad as the Ruth Richarson black budget was damaging us then by copying that same style of mean cruel inhumanity where the poor are pushed to the gutter to die hungry and sick.

  27. Bill the ‘ holey’ man , now , eh ?

    Liar.

  28. Glenn 29

    Hosking did well as the National spokesman.

    • Keepcalmcarryon 29.1

      Pretty evident Hosking and English vs Adern.
      Least balanced nz debate ive seen
      English flat out lying re 11 billion dollar hole and not pulled by Hosking. Dirty politics, possibly working in the polls so he’s doubled down.

  29. Revealed: China’s network of influence in New Zealand – NZ Herald
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz › Business

    • greywarshark 30.1

      Here are some other intriguing headlines on NZ Herald.

      NEW ZEALAND
      Fake names: Chief referred to Solicitor-General
      20 Sep, 2017 5:37pm
      Ministry of Social Development found unlawfully using fake names on legal documents

      and

      NEW ZEALAND
      Beneficiaries short-changed by millions
      20 Sept 5.58 pm

  30. mauī 31

    Introducing e-therapy digital counselling. Bill’s answer to fixing mental health. No one knows what it is but its new, and more internet time will somehow address kid’s mental health.

    • AsleepWhileWalking 31.1

      Well anyone in NZ can call themselves a counsellor so robots it is.

      Serves them right for fucking around and failing to ensure their profession is registered as health practitioners by doing something as basic as agreeing.

    • cleangreen 31.2

      mauī; – It’s callled in the old fashioned term we all know as ‘Brainwashing’

      National are so tied to the control of the mind as we have seen when they removed all our Public affairs programs like ‘close-up’ and they cousins as they were to focused on the negative stuff the current government was doing .

      Radio NZ ‘National’is now a trumpet for the ‘National Party’ so on it goes until they will have us alll bowijng to the ‘National God’ himself.

  31. Herodotus 32

    Greatest one liner
    ” we can never afford poverty”
    Responding to bill “now we can NOW afford to help due to government surpluses” , with jacindas response … priceless.

  32. garibaldi 33

    For once Hosking has done a good job, and I rate Jacinda ahead of Bill on tonight . Well done.

    • cleangreen 33.1

      Yep me too, and did you notice how smug English looked?

      His paymasters certainly paid a lot for his cover of Crosby textor spin.

    • ScottGN 33.2

      Me too garibaldi. I thought Hoskings did OK. And both leaders were fine too. It’s not going to make any difference really.

    • weka 33.3

      A few issues?

      Bronwyn Hayward‏ @BMHayward 37m

      beyond shocked just angry at role Hosking & TVNZ playing in eroding public confidence in MMP democracy & the role of coalitions #decision17

      Cameron Eade‏ @cam_eade
      Replying to @BMHayward

      Watching Bill continue “$11b hole” lie, then Hosking saying “Let’s agree to disagree”, is astonishingly shameful for #nzpol 😠

      Bronwyn Hayward‏ @BMHayward

      This was crucial- The host made one intervention then sat back as post truth politics was debated live in an otherwise managed interview

      Hayward is a political science professor.

      https://twitter.com/BMHayward/status/910414407636803585

    • ianmac 33.4

      Mike excelled himself. Given his right leaning and anti left he was very impressive
      Jacinda won that debate. Thank goodness for that.

      As ex Min of Finance Bill can quote facts and figures for ever. Jacinda less so. But this time Mike didn’t allow Bill to run away with his usual Shouty Bill. Jacinda was concise and was able to express politely her concern about after 9 long years and about the “misleading” information that Bill has used.

      Jacinda 9 out of 10.
      Bill 5 out of 10

      • Pat 33.4.1

        Herald poll would disagree….I only saw about the last 5 mins….turnout will still be determining factor…..the 80% (?) of relatively disinterested will decide this

        • alwyn 33.4.1.1

          Yes. The Herald Poll had it 60% Bill, 34% Jacinda.
          It was closer on the Stuff website though.
          They had it Bill 56% and Jacinda 37%.
          Don’t worry though. Labours little lovie on Stuff, Tracy Watkins, says that Jacinda won so that is all right.
          It is hardly surprising the Stuff papers are going down the tubes.

  33. Herodotus 34

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/97025359/live-three-days-to-go-till-the-election
    English says “we can make the positive choices now” because there’s been a couple of years of surplus and now they have the money. Ardern says “we could never afford poverty” and under National the situation has slid.
    Magic one liner from J.A. In response
    Sad for a govt to say that they can only make positive social choices when we are in surplus 🙁

  34. greywarshark 35

    NEW ZEALAND
    Debate: Ardern attacks ‘negative campaign from National’
    20 Sep, 2017 7:42p
    Latest from NZ Herald link above at 30

  35. Nick 36

    Jacinda was better than Bill tonight. He just spewed Bullshit.

  36. JC 37

    “Filthy waterways, dying patients denied their pain relief of choice, and working families forced to live in their cars, these are some of the big issues that have got New Zealanders fired-up. They’ve also been the focus of political campaigning in the run up to the election. As voting day draws ever closer, we’ve gathered together some of our recent Insight podcasts, to help you get clued up on the big issues before you put pen to ballot paper.”

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/insight/audio/201858527/your-big-election-listens-from-rnz-insight

    • greywarshark 37.1

      The list of undone work by Gnashional just makes it seem that they are incompetent or frozen and unable to make decisions for the good of the country. Constipated and can’t get off the pot. The long days till the main voting day only increases their unpleasant persona and aroma.

      They are facing off the weight of ridicule and disgust at their connivance and sly lies to satisfy their backers and voters who are either soaked in past-its-date business theory or smarmy wealth craters with no scruples. With a fair unpwind they will be freed from their circular prison to go and dump in someone else’s yard like the poor and drugged derelicts already on the streets.

  37. timeforacupoftea 38

    Calm down everyone.

    If Trump could win, so can Jacinda !
    Roll on Saturday !

  38. AsleepWhileWalking 39

    Beneficiaries short changed by millions. MSD has known for a couple of years but did nothing

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11924050

  39. AsleepWhileWalking 40

    Another of these WTF happened to NZ stories

    “Working families with young children and babies are being left homeless and sleeping in cars in Auckland, as they struggle to get into emergency housing, and are turned off or away from Housing New Zealand. Parents say even with accommodation supplement benefits, their wages can’t cover rising rents, and living in garages or spending nights on floors of friends and family are the only options they have.”

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/insight/audio/201787942/when-a-child-s-home-is-a-car

  40. seeker 41

    “Under my leadership there will be action …. no more autopilot.”

    Great closing line from Jacinda . (TVNZ1 leaders’ debate tonight.)

  41. Ant 42

    Bill and Jacinda stand on the same stair of a flight of stairs.
    Bill : “Jacinda are you taking one step up?”
    Jacinda: “No, I’m staying where I am.”
    Upon which Bill takes one step down and exclaims “Hey Jacinda, I see you’ve taken one step up!”

    It is difficult to have respect for a leader who clearly has scant respect for the most basic straight talk and truth.

    Gower’s piece should make headlines in all our papers.

  42. repateet 43

    The poll must’ve gone well for National. It’s on Kiwiblog within an hour of being broadcast. The Great Informer has been nowhere near as quick when the story hasn’t suited him.

  43. Craig H 44

    If NZ First miss out (unlikely), Maori Party could end up with the balance of power.

    Otherwise, even at 46%, the Nats can’t govern with just ACT and the Maori Party, so Winston gets to decide who the PM will be.

  44. Rosemary McDonald 45

    Marama Fox is all about “strategic voting”….’cos that’s what folk are telling her.

    ” “Since the weekend it’s almost like the bigger issues have started to take a side-step to the strategic voting as an issue. People are not talking to me about homelessness anymore. They are not talking to me about poverty.

    “They are talking to me about who can form government and which is the best way to vote in order to make that happen.””

    She pins her colours clearly to the mast…

    ” She said voters were starting to see the “holes” in Labour, including not making te reo Maori compulsory or moving to entrench the Maori seats. Personally, she was quietly confident she would return to Parliament.

    “I know everywhere I speak I turn the entire room. I know people are starting to question the ability of Labour’s Maori MPs to affect any change inside their party.”

    “We recognise the mood for change … there are Maori voters, a majority of when you are knocking on doors, who have said they want change, but they want us there.”

    Ahem, Marama, after nine years snuggling up to National, supporting them to increase poverty and homelessness….. how’s that change going?

  45. james 46

    IF National win the election – I wonder if Jacinda will bother staying on as leader for Labour.

    Is it her choice – or does it go to the party to decide?

    • JC 46.1

      Stated earlier, but it seems like you’d like to have the last word James…

      Persistent with your personality perhaps …

      “In this month’s issue of Personality and Individual Differences, a study was published that confirms what we all suspected: internet trolls are horrible people.”

      https://www.sott.net/article/286185-Internet-trolls-are-narcissists-psychopaths-and-sadists

      “In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting quarrels or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal, on-topic discussion,[3] often for the troll’s amusement.”

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

      • James 46.1.1

        Yeah – I reckon she will quit. Jacinda won’t be leading labour into the 2020 campaign if she loses this one.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 46.1.1.1

          Are you an exhibitionist James? Revealing yourself like that! Not for the first time either.

  46. mosa 48

    The fact that you made that ridiculous comment James means that you know darn well that she will go the distance and be there when this pack of wankers leaves town and she will be there to make sure they do !!!

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