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Open Mike 19/09/2017

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 19th, 2017 - 185 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose. The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

185 comments on “Open Mike 19/09/2017 ”

  1. tc 1

    Hope the high early vote turnout means high overall turnout as that’s what changes govts.

    The national billboards have acquired yellow party vote overlays obscuring the warm fuzzy images in part now. When do they come down ?

  2. Ed 2

    ‘The aviation fuel crisis caused by a ruptured pipeline has suddenly become a central issue in a tight election contest, forcing the National Government to scramble in a bid to limit impact to the travelling public and to its own vote.

    With just four days to go, Opposition parties piled into National with Labour leader Jacinda Ardern claiming that the failure of the infrastructure was a failure of leadership.

    The unexpected headache has the potential to undermine one of National’s longstanding claims to being better managers than Labour.

    But it is also an opportunity for the Government to show it can handle a crisis competently – and a test for no-nonsense Energy Minister Judith Collins in controlling the Government response….’

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11923737

    • tc 2.1

      The minister for kauris response will probably be a quasi test for the leaders role.

      Will she help the cause or help herself as they’re vulnerable due to the gutting of regulators, resources and rules in their adoration of ‘market knows best’.

      Wonder if a scapegoat is being lined up for the ‘look how tough we are’ bs.

      • Ed 2.1.1

        Winston Peters just said on Garner’s show that the damage done to the pipe was by a foreign owned organisation, operating out of the Cayman Islands and paying no tax.
        Hope the media digs further on this – but with more precision that the foreign owned swamp kauri extractors.

        • AsleepWhileWalking 2.1.1.1

          ! Glad team Winston are on the case

        • The Rock 2.1.1.2

          Well if Winston said it and with no proof to back it up then it must be true

          • tracey 2.1.1.2.1

            You must hate National this campaign then.

            • The Rock 2.1.1.2.1.1

              I actually mind Labour getting back into power if HC and MC were back, house prices rose quicker under Labour than they did National so be good to make some real money

              [care to explain why there are multiple pseudonyms using this IP address, especially after one of them got warned to pick a single name and stick to it? I’ll check in with Lynn to make sure I’m not missing anything here, but I can’t see any reason why you shouldn’t cop a lengthy ban. If you don’t feel comfortable discussing this in the front end, then email Lynn – weka]

              • weka

                moderation note above for you to read and respond to.

                • greywarshark

                  You are between a rock and a hard place weka with some moderation. But The Rock sounds awfully like a troll to me, or a flamer, amusing himself poking a stick in to the ant hill, pulling wings off flies etc. Have a good day weka, hope it’s not raining your way, and perhaps a nice cup of tea?

        • alwyn 2.1.1.3

          I asked him once where The Cayman Islands were. His reply, as far as could decipher it in the late night noise in the Green Parrot in Wellington, was something like.

          “Listen Sunshine. I’ve been going there ever since I first went while working down a mine in Australia. I know everything about it and I’ll stop all those Chinese coming to New Zealand and buying up all our farms ………………”.

          That was about when he, and I fell asleep.

          • Robert Guyton 2.1.1.3.1

            Both dead drunk?

            • alwyn 2.1.1.3.1.1

              Dead drunk! How dare you Sir.
              I am the last relic of the WCTU. The purest of the pure.
              Depart. Get back to your dungeon before I take to you with my shillelagh.
              I can’t speak for Winston though.

    • Ed dont get caught in the msm positioning on this. The gnats have let down a whole swathe of people and they are showing how useless they are. There is no good for them from this.

    • popexplosion 2.3

      Roll on Rma reform, if they don’t get consent now and this happens, what happens when they don’t even have to bother with consent.

    • But it is also an opportunity for the Government to show it can handle a crisis competently

      I’m pretty sure that the Rena stranding was as well – and they failed there. Seems that they’re maintaining the same failed policies for emergencies, a policy of simply not having anything in place to deal with it because it’s cheaper in the short term.

  3. eco Maori/kiwi 3

    Sorry MSM your man got his ass kicked . And all those fake smiles you people come on you people are to easy to read yes I am defensive But like to see what you would do in my situation shit your pants and run .

    Now trump he wants the United Nations to Pay america to pay for more for the dum ass war they are fighting and defense spend.
    Lets look at this from my view most of the money would go to america the Americans
    have all the army bases around the world and trump wants US to pay them for this what a load of crap we should give that idiot trump anything the rest of the World can see right through you the only trick trump has is bulling everyone that doesn’t agree
    with his neo liberal bullshit Ideals and this idiot will fuck up the negotiations with North Korea . One needs more skills than being a bully to try and lead OUR WORLD .
    The carrot works Better than the stick come on this is basic human Psychology not fucken rocket science . Or is it that trump is like all neo liberals and thinks Koreans or anyone not white is not human. It is obvious that the UN and trumps moves is not working. ALL THE PEOPLE OF THE WOURLD NEED TO BE PUTTING ALL OUR RESOURCES INTO FIGHTING CLIMATE CHANGE NOT DUM ASS WARS WHICH IDIOTS START trump wants us to pay for the US war machine .
    It would be nice if Draco T Bastard would post that you tube video on what motivates PEOPLE. This will help get our point to these people.

    • garibaldi 3.1

      Nice one eco.
      I would just point out that the Americans do not, and will not, negotiate with Nth Korea, and therein lies much of the problem. This goes back to the Korean war ,which is still a huge problem ( much of which America can’t be proud of, like Vietnam).

  4. Espiner ffs stfu

    Jacinda maybe try this – so guyon you want our children to swim in shit do you?

    I’d like some drug testing at rnz /sarc

    • ScottGN 4.1

      She never gets Susie does she?

    • Tautoko Mangō Mata 4.2

      Guyon’s “interview” of Jacinda was appalling! He talked over the top of her and didn’t wait for the answers. It was embarrassingly bad.

    • Hanswurst 4.3

      I didn’t see it as being so bad. He obviously wasn’t as well-informed as he perhaps should have been on how complex some similar taxes are already. He was also pointlessly combative on certain well-publicised details (apparently) not being on the Labour website, and pressed hard for some details that would probably best be finalised once the party had gained access to the Treasury benches and the advisory machinery of government. Overall, though, he posed some serious questions, and Ardern gave some decent answers. I don’t think too many voters are going to be put off by a politician acquitting herself well in a mildly hostile interview. Quite the opposite, in fact.

      • greywarshark 4.3.1

        Hanswurst
        A nice measured critique. It sometimes is hard not to damn the interviewer. But to get anywhere they may have to probe. Otherwise it’s all the same every day.

        • In Vino 4.3.1.1

          I thought him a nasty, negative spinner. At one point Jacinda said about the water tax that they had given 2 figures in a small range. Espiner immediately interrupted, saying, “Yes, but one figure is double the other.” That makes it sound like a big increase, exactly the vagueness and unpredictability that National are trying to play upon.
          I wanted Jacinda to respond: “No, one figure is half the other.” (Making it sound small, spinning it the other way, and pointing out Espiner’s bias.)
          Espiner does this to left-wing victims (sorry, interviewees) far more often than he does it to right-wing ones in my experience.

          • greywarshark 4.3.1.1.1

            Yes I have heard Espiner pick on a point that he repeats over and over as if he is seeking the answer to the site of the Holy Grail. He decides what is important and it is more like a battle to assert victory over his victim (I mean interviewee). I was trying to be less prejudiced towards him, and have caught him sometimes doing a good job and thought he was improving.

            I’d hate to be involved with him and all these opinionated hacks privately, his attitude is not just a persona he adopts and it would be a case of if he gives way on anything, he would keep score for the times he kindly gave in, and demand later balance.

    • tc 4.4

      Any half decent broadcaster knows their best interviewer is Kim Hill who takes no shit and gets questions answered.

      Espinner is a tool of the right and needs to be removed if nact get turfed, you should always let the polly speak which he seems to only allow nat pollies spinning their BS.

      • lurgee 4.4.1

        KIm Hill is an awful interviewer. She interrupts constantly and never lets the interviewees speak.

        • In Vino 4.4.1.1

          Rubbish, lurgee. Kim Hill interrupts sometimes, but at others she lets people hang themselves by their own petards. She also creates really good, positive, non-combative interviews.
          Susie and Guyon are your constant interrupter/talkover artists with scant thought or knowledge.

    • Ffloyd 4.5

      Heard guyon interviewing himself while driving this morning. He is downright intolerable when he resorts to bad mannered, shouting down methods of asserting his will and trying to direct the narrative to his desired outcome. He just fixates on something and will not let it drop until he either wears his interviewee down or it becomes clear he is not going to get his own way. He is quite irrational at times. At least Jacinda holds her own. Must annoy him no end.

  5. Johan 5

    The building of another pipeline is not cost effective for a small country like New Zealand. The real problem is the need for rules and regulations, which today are conveniently side-stepped by many businesses, eg. those looking for swamp kauri, where the Collins clan have a vested interest. Will a robust investigation in the rupture of the pipe line occur, or will it be another so-so investigation similar to that of the Pike River Coal Mine?

    • mauī 5.1

      What about a large fuel silo at Auckland airport as a backup? You would think our largest airport would have a contingency like that and it wouldn’t be a huge expense in the scheme of things. Who knows they might already have one but it’s not big enough to help much.

      It’s why the Greens should be in Government to apply some common sense. After the Rena disaster they were calling for cleanup crews to be based at our major ports just in case something went wrong.

      • Ad 5.1.1

        We took 20 years to get rid of the sewerage ponds on the Manukau Harbour, and a whole bunch of people would object to that volume of toxic material being stored on the edge of the Manukau Harbour again.

        I would rather see a heavy rail line from Puhinui to the airport as a supplement feeder of jet fuel only when needed for instances like now.

      • Brokenback 5.1.2

        To fill the A380 that flies direct to Dubai requires 5 hours pumping Jet A1 down that [damaged] 10 inch/250mm diameter pipe at 200 bar/2800psi .

        The Fuel consumed/carbon footprint of our Tourism industry is enormous.

        • McFlock 5.1.2.1

          That’s insane – how close to capacity must it have been running?

        • Andre 5.1.2.2

          That seems odd. An A380 takes up to 323 cu m, a 250mm pipeline has a cross-sectional area of 0.05 sqm. So 323 cu m in 18000 seconds means it’s flowing at about 0.35 m/s. The guideline for maximum flow velocity for kerosene, diesel etc seems to be about 3 m/s.

          • McFlock 5.1.2.2.1

            that’s still a solid half hour for one plane

            • Andre 5.1.2.2.1.1

              Yep.

              To take a hand-waving order of magnitude guess at the capacity question, if the airport is taking 1.1 billion litres of jet fuel per year through the pipe, and take a wild guess at another billion litres of petrol and a billion litres of diesel (aroundabout 1500 litres petrol/diesel per capita per year for Aucklanders doesn’t look too absurd), then the pipe is carrying around 350 cu m per hour 365/24, which is about half its capacity. But then there’s downtime for product changeovers and maintenance etc.

              I’m not confident about that 3 m/s flow velocity, pipe flows aren’t my thing. It’s just what most engineering tips web pages spit out. But a few of them claim higher flow rates.

    • ianmac 5.2

      The outlay would be huge for a second line but so is the cost huge when the line fails.

    • tracey 5.3

      Something else that wont be known til post election, but that is ok cos it is National.

  6. Stan Blanch 6

    NZ is a small vulnerable economy that is being marginalised annually, by geographic isolation, low volume trading, low wages and a narrow income base.

    Further weakened by an at-risk demographic, eg on any given day up to a third of high school kids in south Auckland are absent. Just look at the High School passes of this group. Rank 30 th in the OECD. Also the crime Stats’ 50% of these folk occupy our prisons.

    Gvt benefits payouts are the highest in the first world (Maori & P.I.)

    Australia sees all this & is slowly closing its borders to Kiwi’s. Then this [deleted] Adern, standing for the Countries leadership, wants the Primary sector ( which is half of our international income) to pay out additional huge taxes.

    Her 3-6 cents a pound for butter fat equals about $50,000 for many NZ Dairy farms. The remedy is dont vote for Labour its backward & communist. This system of Gvt has proven not to work.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYjLvlcnzPk

    [seeing as how we’re most likely heading for 3 years of Ardern as PM, I’m going to start pushing back against the inevitable casual sexism now. It’s unnecessary for the political points you want to make – weka]

    [also edited for formatting so I can make sense of what is being said – weka]

    • Ad 6.1

      Good moderation there Weka.
      Hard to attract female commenters – and as Lyn notes in his post today, it’s a hard won democratic gain.

      • DSpare 6.1.1

        I didn’t see the sexist statements that were moderated out, but there is still a hell of a lot of casual racism left in SB’s comment. For example, “Gvt benefits payouts are the highest in the first world. ( Maori & P.I.)”, without providing any any links to support that assertion (which would be difficult as the majority of benefits paid are superannuation, and Māori tend to be a bit too dead by that age to collect much of that). Then there are; “south Auckland” & “these folk”.

        But in any case, what little there is of an argument is nonsensical (in as much as it is decipherable from the imprecise grammar). The remedy to current problems is to not change what you are doing?

        As Mr English’s staff looked increasingly uncomfortable, Ms Lane argued low-wage workers were not getting the benefits of the growing economy that Mr English kept talking about.

        Mr English told her a National-led government would continue to raise the minimum wage, but she said that was simply not enough.

        “$3.75 [increase] over nine years – now how would you like it if your hourly rate went up $3.75 over a period of nine years?”

        Mr English said that would be a challenge for him.

        http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/election-2017/339416/bill-english-grilled-on-wages-in-gisborne

        • marty mars 6.1.1.1

          Good points – stan the man is a sham despite his shit he needs a plan cos he’s a fuckwit gnat gland.

          If the racism was cut stan would have nothing to say. Typical gnat – so thick he couldn’t fit in the toaster.

        • weka 6.1.1.2

          Thanks for pointing that out Dspare. I’ve reread the comment and agree about the casual racism. This is something useful to think about in terms off moderation, where the line is between removing content that is likely to put commenters off (or cause flame wars) vs allowing robust debate even where some of the content is gross.

          I think there’s a line between personal attacks on politicians (e.g. had it been about say Turei and the personal comments had been ethnicity based rather than gender, then I would have removed those bits), and people making political arguments (e.g. their belief about ethnicity stats and what it means).

          Generally the latter are left for people to argue over, and I certainly think it’s reasonable to ask people to back up claims of fact (I keep an eye out as a moderator for that). I need to have a think about that tolerance though. I draw a lot on the part of the Policy that’s about tone or language that excludes others, and am still trying to find the balance on that. Am open to feedback on this.

          Please keep pointing these things out too, because it can be easy to miss especially when there is a lot going on.

          • In Vino 6.1.1.2.1

            I too agree with Dspare. To Stan Blanch I would say that you need to express yourself much more clearly and precisely. That last effort made me think you a semi-articulate right-wing redneck. You deserve the criticism and the moderation comments.

    • The Rock 6.2

      To Stan

      Theres much to attack her with so there’s no need to make it about her looks or gender or anything like that

      Attack her flip-flopping, her lack of experience, the amount of time she spends campaigning in schools, her “captains calls”, her town v country divisive tactics, her smile and wave, attack all that

      But leave the personal attacks out of it we’re better than that…or we should be

      • Robert Guyton 6.2.1

        Attack her for smiling?
        Yeah, go on…

      • Ffloyd 6.2.2

        Lol. Heard english gloating the other day about how he was getting mobbed in schools and malls and excitedly said “they are coming, wanting photos. I am going to win!” ..
        … Never trust the ankle biters Bill. They will turn on you at the drop of a lollipop.

      • Anne 6.2.3

        Attack her flip-flopping, her lack of experience, the amount of time she spends campaigning in schools, her “captains calls”, her town v country divisive tactics,…

        1) Her flip flopping? Just because voters make it clear they want to have a final say on changes to the outdated tax regime. That’s not flip flopping, that’s being sensible and heeding their concerns.

        2) She’s been in parliament 9 years mate. Far longer than John Key was before becoming PM. Oh, I get it. He’s a man so he doesn’t need as long… right?

        3) Lack of experience. She’s only headed a large international youth organisation… worked as an adviser and consultant in the Blair Government and she’s done other admirable things as well. She’s amply qualified for the job.

        4) the amount of time she spends campaigning in schools, her “captains calls”…,. English spends equally as much time in schools and cuddling babies and animals . It represents around 20% of their campaign activity but its how the news teams like to portray them – the warm, fuzzy thing that attracts viewers.

        5) her town v country divisive tactics,… You are not very insightful then. Anyone with a half a brain should be able to see who is the party creating the divisive tactics for political gain. NATIONAL.

    • Frida 6.3

      Thanks Weka. I am SO SICK of the sexism already and she hasn’t even been elected PM yet. You don’t have to scratch too far in this country for rampant sexism and misogynism to be revealed. It disgusted me through the Helen Clark years and I can feel the same angry revulsion kicking in through this campaign.

      • weka 6.3.1

        I think it will be easy enough to knock the more blatant stuff on the head. The more subtle, Hooton-esque* stuff will be harder, but then that should be being dealt with in comments anyway (fingers crossed).

        *e.g. his current line is that Ardern is incompetent, but he’s very careful to avoid any suggestion that it’s because of her gender. It’s still sexist as though.

        • tracey 6.3.1.1

          He really must have hated almost the entire Cabinet post election 2008 with all those who had never been in cabinet before.

        • Pat 6.3.1.2

          it is playing on sexist attitudes but Hooten is simply doing a Joyce and sowing doubt, I doubt he believes half the crap he spouts

    • Why should agriculture get our resources for nothing?
      Why should they get to pollute without consequence?

      Really, your argument seems to be: Don’t vote Labour because it’s actually taking into account economics.

    • tracey 6.5

      We havent used pounds since 1967.

      ” Her 3-6 cents a pound for butter fat equals about $50,000 for many NZ Dairy farms. ” Only for huge Corporate Dairy Farms but nonetheless please post your souce.

    • Daveosaurus 6.6

      Oh, look, it’s a butt-hurt palagi whining bitterly about having to share this country with icky, icky, non-white people. Perish the thought that it could act upon the courage of its convictions, get off its fat lily-white arse and high-tail it back to England…

  7. Hanswurst 7

    So the poor fellow might have to pay $1500 a year if the water tax is levied. Cry me a river. that’s pretty much the definition of negligible impact. It almost seems as though the only tax that some farmers would find acceptable would be one that cost nothing and that nobody had to pay.

    • ianmac 7.1

      The National Party organiser for the protest was a very poor advocate on Morning Report. Just shows how effective is English scaremongering.
      “Labour wants to tax us for everything except the air we breathe.”
      http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=201859018

      • marty mars 7.1.1

        Yep that racist thick farmer is a good example of a farmer that lets us all down. Good the gnats have their shithead mates to push their dirty agenda. What a joke.

        • Hanswurst 7.1.1.1

          Yes, he just came across as uninformed and bigoted. Also, what was that supposed to be yesterday about a “positive message“? Was anything concrete at all said about “what farmers have done for the environment”? Certainly, all Lloyd Downing talked about in that interview was his not wanting other farmers to pay taxes real and imaginary. Not wanting to do something is negative in and of itself. It’s like they’ve thought up one PR line, “We want to make a positive statement about how awesome we are,” and one attack line, “Labour want to tax everything,” and not given a single thought to anything else.

          • JC 7.1.1.1.1

            “Lloyd Downing acknowledges farming is having an impact, but look how far we’ve come, he says. When asked for evidence, he tells the story of his old dad, back when Lloyd was a lad, taking the farm’s rubbish and chucking it in the river.
            I used to shoot at the used light bulbs, he says, as they floated away! Nobody does that any more! ”

            FFS

            https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/96918129/alison-mau-morrinsville–where-the-politics-is-getting-dirtier-than-the-worst-farm-stream

            • garibaldi 7.1.1.1.1.1

              Good to see the redneck bigots falling back on McCarthyism! Time they looked ahead more than one season and started worrying about how their kids are going to survive.
              Selling basic milk powder to the Chinese is economic stupidity as is intensive dairying on totally unsuitable terrain.
              Their entrenched and narrow view of the changing world is very harmful for all of us.

              • greywarshark

                And the Chinese are getting the hang of NZ dairy expertise at home. They at least have some idea of how to maintain their economy in their own interests.

                ‘The entrenched and narrow view of the changing world [by farmers] is very harmful for all of us.’ Indeed. And most of us including farmers who are over-leveraged, over any sort of precautionary controls on their overweening ambitions, will all go down together.

                For those who like Tom Lehrer’s sarcasm seems to fit
                The farmers will like his Pollution song as it has a go at cities, just up their street really.
                Pollution

                and it is followed by We will all go together when we go –
                His song refers to the bomb but being hit by a collapsed economy and perhaps a hurricane will have a similar effect, and both are as possible as another strong earthquake.

    • Cinny 7.2

      notice that the article did not mention the size of his farm or his herds, no perspective in that story, $1500 is peanuts judging from what we can see in the picture/video of the size of his operation.

    • JC 7.3

      Informative piece from economist Peter Fraser and agricultural consultant Dr Alison Dewes.

      http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU1709/S00523/dairy-farms-using-same-amount-of-water-as-60-million-people.htm

      ” …. water consumption of New Zealand dairy farms is equivalent to the residential use of 60 million people.

      This is on top of the often quoted figure that New Zealand’s dairy herd has the environmental footprint equivalent to 90 million people.

      “The implication is if a water royalty was imposed on irrigators then over 80 percent of dairy farmers will be unaffected”

      However, this message is not getting through to farmers.

      “As illustrated by the farmer protest (sic) in Morrinsville, it is clear many farmers are being unduly worried by baseless scaremongering – especially as Morrinsville is hardly ‘ground zero’ for irrigated dairying.”

    • I’ve had two family members in accounting with experience with farmers accounts and both tell me that farmers don’t pay tax.

      So, the only tax that farmers seem to approve of is one that they don’t pay.

      • weka 7.4.1

        You mean they don’t pay income tax? Or business tax?

        • tc 7.4.1.1

          Probably both as they’re already GST exempt.

          If you shuffle income around the whanau up to each persons no tax threshold then max the farm expenses you can end up with a loss on the farm and everybody still gets cash to splash.

          IIRC they get generous depreciation and write downs not available ouside the Ag sector unsure how the rebate picture is.

  8. Ad 8

    The Otago University Students Association comes out specifically for Labour:

    https://www.critic.co.nz/issuu-archives/issuu/199/

    They also state that it was imperative for the Green Party to be a part of government.

    Which is in turn reported by the Otago Daily Times:

    https://www.odt.co.nz/news/election-2017/student-magazine-endorses-labour-party

  9. Muttonbird 9

    Locals say there’s never been any digging there. Perhaps Refinery NZ hasn’t been doing its maintenance program properly and the whole pipe is at risk.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/96941407/digger-scraped-and-cut-crucial-jet-fuel-pipeline-affecting-thousands-of-auckland-airport-travellers

  10. eco Maori/kiwi 10

    To MSM lets not create a divide between TOWN and COUNTRY we are all on this WAKA
    called EARTH together. So when it starts sinking no one is going to think about that divide YOU are letting national impose on US there neo liberal bullshit ideals it is so primeval .
    There are some todd mclay sign wavers in Rotorua they are not getting any support .
    Because we all Know who his father is and what he got up to and that Trade Deal is bullshit if all agriculture is not included in it Europe dosen’t need our FOOD.

    • weka 10.1

      +1

      Lots of idiots in the town and country.

    • Cinny 10.2

      Well said Eco 😀
      All of us wanting/needing clean water and less pollution so we can keep the planet alive is not divisive, it’s inclusive, survival of the planet and all the inhabitants depends on it.
      Nat and media driven town v’s country division does nothing to solve any problem

      Sharing ideas will help so much with solutions, that’s why I’m so very supportive of the water forum, because it brings all sectors etc together to find solutions which will unite NZ to improve life for all.

  11. eco Maori/kiwi 11

    Why has the neo liberal Rotorua Lakes Council got no NITROGEN OR EFFLUENT mitigation plans in place Why have they got Lakes in there name and they are sitting on there assess and not even trying to fix that problem .
    national have cut our science funding and this is one of the main tools we have to fight Climate Change and create a beautiful future for OUR grandchildren so fucken DUM.

  12. Adrian 12

    If Jacinda and Labour really wanted to put the boot into dairy farmers in particular they would point out that in a report last year, I think, (sorry too busy or incompetent to find the reference ) that dairy farmers are tax negative by a long way.
    On that note I would like to see in a new tax regime the inability of the buyer of a business to acquire simply for the tax losses associated with the target company.
    When it’s sold the losses are wiped not credited to arseholes.

  13. The decrypter 13

    Seems like the herald are putting fuel shortage scares out .Nothing like a good panic buying splurge about NOW.

  14. Robert Guyton 14

    Chris Trotter sums up the Morrinsville farmer furore nicely:
    “When Andrew McGiven and Lloyd Downing encouraged their rural brethren gather under Morrinsville’s giant cow yesterday, they were simply adding another chapter to an already very long story of rural antagonism towards the needs and aspirations of New Zealand’s urban majority. The latter looked on, appalled, at the selfishness and ignorance which unfailingly follow the country into town.”

    • marty mars 14.1

      I heard the farmer on the rnz. The one speaking was just an ignorant racist thick wanker exactly the sort of farmer that should not be in farming imo.

    • weka 14.2

      The problem with that framing is that if we want to uplift the needs and aspirations of the majority then we will end up with Auckland running the place. There are distinct problems with most NZers living in cities, and one of them is that their ideas about nature are often once removed. People in cities also tend to see city life as normal and to then normalise that outwards. Hence the idea that part of the solution to the Auckland housing crisis is to send a whole bunch of people to the provinces, presumably to turn them into mini Aucklands. I’m appalled 😉

      Besides, this country living person looked on appalled at the protest as well. No need to create a false divide.

      • Robert Guyton 14.2.1

        The Feds and National have created the divide, imo. They couldn’t see that the optics would be so bad, because they’re in a bubble (methane mainly). I don’t hold with the idea that city-folk are more divorced from the real world than country people; in the country, the wild world is being actively suppressed and most farming action are aimed at suppressing the return of a natural environment. In the city, it’s largely over but city folk aren’t personally, in the main, poisoning stuff, burning stuff, chainsawing down stuff, as many in the farming community are.

        • weka 14.2.1.1

          true, but I think that’s lack of opportunity as much as anything. Otherwise we’d have had a Green-led govt by now. Look at the kaupapa of poisoning as part of conservation. Those are values held as much by city folk as anyone else. And the need to develop and improve things all the time to the detriment of the environment is a town as well as country value.

          It’s not that I think city people are more divorced from the real world, it’s that I think the less time you spend in nature the more your thinking about and experience of it changes. That’s a generalisation, there are still many people in cities that give a shit about nature. But they tend to visit nature rather than seeing themselves as part of it. That’s a problem. Living in the country and seeing nature as something to be tamed is also a problem. Different problems, both need acknowledging and responding to.

          • garibaldi 14.2.1.1.1

            weka in my experience of ten years dairyfaming I did not witness any farmers seeing their land as part of nature. They saw their land as a means of converting grass into milk and to hell with everything else.
            I must confess that was also our aim when sharemilking.
            We were told in the eighties of strict impending environmental laws and 3 year time frame was given. What did the industry do? sfa.

            • Matiri 14.2.1.1.1.1

              Fonterra will be telling Lloyd Downing to shut up! All that money they spent on PR – they’ll have to bring back Richie McCaw.

            • Robert Guyton 14.2.1.1.1.2

              They can’t, garibaldi. Their cultural framing makes wildness invisible to them. They can though, just sense something threatening “over there”, but that can be Rounded-Up, no worries, mate.

        • Draco T Bastard 14.2.1.2

          If asked i think many city folk would love this idea. People living in cities with nature everywhere else, where the majority of the world would be a conservation estate – one that wouldn’t need looking after much but would be easy to visit.

      • tracey 14.2.2

        Agree @ false divide

  15. joe90 15

    Whether or not my uncle and his siblings were loaded onto a cattle wagon and transported to Siberia or they were on the very first TikiTour to Siberia is the subject of scientific debate, too. Pricks.

    //

    On Sept.17, 1939, #RedArmy crossed the border with Polish Republic. This event has been subject of scientific debate https://t.co/lUOsLY6C82 pic.twitter.com/givguLKqwt— MFA Russia 🇷🇺 (@mfa_russia) September 18, 2017

    • I guess the unpublished part of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, in which Germany and the USSR agreed to divide Poland up between them, must have been an invention of “the authors of biased historical narratives.”

  16. Ad 16

    Z Energy reporting that petrol stations are beginning to run out:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11923771

    “Four Auckland service stations ran out of 95 octane petrol yesterday – and more could run out today – as thousands of air passengers again face a day of cancelled flights.

    Z Energy said it would be able to replenish the fuel today and told motorists there was no cause for concern.

    Z’s corporate communications manager, Jonathan Hill, said in the first days after a pipeline from the Marsden Point Refinery ruptured, the company concentrated on delivering 91 octane petrol and diesel to Auckland.”

    There is no cause for concern … except banner media headlines that freak voters out four days out from polling day.

    • weka 16.1

      Um, are there likely to be people without petrol on Saturday?

      • Robert Guyton 16.1.1

        My thoughts exactly. That would be a deep, dark ploy indeed. Unlikely, but grist to the paranoid-rumour mill 🙂

      • Ad 16.1.2

        No one is saying that yet.
        TVNZ hasn’t really picked up on this story, but I can see it building all week.

        • weka 16.1.2.1

          I haven’t followed this side of it, but where I live it’s normal to have petrol supplied via tanker rather than a pipe. Is there some reason that isn’t happening enough? Is it simple physics (not enough tankers/time to meet demand)? Or am I missing something?

          • Andre 16.1.2.1.1

            Auckland Airport say they supply 1.1 billion litres of jet fuel per year. That’s around 40,000 truckloads. That same pipe also delivers petrol and diesel to the Auckland region so local stations get supplied by truck from Wiri instead trucking it from Tauranga or Whangarei. At a guess that’s probably another couple billion litres of fuel down that pipe.

            (that’s also around 1/270 of the world consumption of jet fuel at Auckland and NZ is 1/1600 of the world population)

          • lprent 16.1.2.1.2

            The volume of fuel for auckland is somewhat high. It is about a third of the countries populaton. Similarly it is about 70% of the airplane fuel usage. It is also where most of the goods dispatched to the rest of nz come from. Auckland probably accounts for more than 40% of all fuelups.

            The terrain between the refinery up north and auckland is difficult. They used to use coastal ships but it is likely that the unloading facility has been killed along with the tank farm at the harbour.

            Truck tankers would fill an already full road and be pretty dangerous on some of the sharp corners in hill roads. Not to mention that we probably don’t have enough tanker trucks unless we use some milk tankers.

            • weka 16.1.2.1.2.1

              ok, so given that, why aren’t they rationing already?

              • Ad

                The State Services Commission has just put out a note to every single government Department that all flights by the public service into or out of Auckland are stopped until further notice.

                Now leads front page of NZHerald:

                http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11923945

                Corin Dann will pick it up on TVNZ news tonight.

                It’s definitely not Business As Usual any more.

                • weka

                  I still haven’t had time to catch up properly, but it does seem very odd that people in general aren’t being advised to use less over the coming few weeks.

                  Would it be true that the rest of country is ok in terms of supply and supply chain?

      • Brokenback 16.1.3

        Stay Calm and keep voting early!
        https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/96983542/four-z-energy-stations-have-no-95-after-company-focuses-on-regular-and-diesel

        Folks in Northland , Bay of Plenty & Waikato need to be aware that the primary focus of :

        Ensuring the critical reduced volumes of Jet Fuel are delivered by Truck to Auckland
        Ensuring that Diesel and 91 Octane petrol supply to Auckland is maintained

        will result in negligible tanker deliveries in those regions.

        Safe Gnat seats will get the least.

        It’s unfortunate that the Pipeline outage occurred , even more unfortunate , IMO , that it didn’t occur a week earlier.

    • Muttonbird 16.2

      Wrong login. This pro-National post should have been under the light blue avatar.

      [leave it alone please. Ad is an author, and anyone can comment from different devices and/or internet connections and end up with a different avatar. – weka]

    • alwyn 16.3

      There are approximately zero cars in New Zealand that need 95 octane petrol and won’t run perfectly happily on 91.
      A large number of stations in Auckland don’t seem to have 95 anyway. Whenever I visit Auckland I seem to stop at stations that stock 91 and 98 instead.
      I guess it is all the Ferraris and Porsches that seem to exist there.

      • Ad 16.3.1

        91 and diesel supplies look like they will be fine for a while.
        There will only be noticeable political impact if that changes by polling day.
        Corin Dann will cover it on TVNZ news tonight – but it’s not yet a vote-turner.

      • Andre 16.3.2

        Whenever one of my rellies mistakenly fills my Daihatsu Sirion 1.3 with 91, there’s nearly continual light knocking and fuel consumption noticeably increases.

        Z don’t seem to try to foist overpriced 98 onto their customers, around here they all sell 95. Last time I checked into it, the 98 being sold had a lot of ethanol, so the energy content is low and fuel consumption would probably increase. So I avoid Gull, Mobil and BP.

      • AsleepWhileWalking 16.3.3

        My car can take 91 but doesn’t accelerate or tackle steep hills well unless its on 95. It’s a safety issue (accelerate out of danger).

        And my car is more economical on 95.

      • james 16.3.4

        “There are approximately zero cars in New Zealand that need 95 octane petrol and won’t run perfectly happily on 91.”

        citation – coz Im calling bullshit.

        There are plenty of cars that are recommended to run on 95+ and they are not all ferraris etc.

  17. Pat 17

    Anyone who thinks policy analysis is the basis determining votes need only to listen to this interview to understand the base level at which the electorate determines what direction this country takes

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/201859018/farm-protest-organiser-rural-economist-debate-water-tax

    It would also be pertinent to remind ourselves the history and origins of the National Party and we may then have a realistic expectation of the level of public discourse around rural issues

    https://nzhistory.govt.nz/page/nz-national-party-founded

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_Reform_Party

    • aj 17.1

      That interview was full of whining entitlement, the like of which you only ever hear from a certain sector of the farming community. Well done Peter Fraser for his rebuttal. Chris Trotter has a good post on the long history of farmer activism on his blog.

  18. Grey Area 19

    Has anyone else seen the full-page ad in today’s DomPost from the totally non-partisan (sarc) Taxpayers’ Union that claims that spending by a Labour/Greens/NZF government will cost every NZ household $229.41 per week over the next three years?

    National/ACT at $22.05/week looks like a real bargain.

  19. Sans Cle 20

    Kia Kaha Jacinda Ardern. Tough, tough time to lose a grandmother.
    If there is poetic justice in this, it’s on Suffrage Day: 124 years after NZ led the world in granting women the vote. We are on the eve of electing a female Prime Minister for the second time….a time to remember we stand on the shoulder of giants and giantesses.

  20. timbeau 21

    The official graph has been updated for yesterday’s voting:

    http://www.elections.org.nz/events/2017-general-election/advance-voting-statistics

    They haven’t given the actual number, but it’s well over 100,000. That’s massive!!

  21. Muttonbird 24

    Surely a police investigation should be launched to bring the person/s who caused the damage to the pipeline to account.

    Not holding my breath.

    • The decrypter 24.1

      Muttonbird, I wouldn’t mind betting the surviving relations of the 900 sheep flown to Saudi Arabia are behind the damage to the pipeline.

  22. cleangreen 25

    New poll just came across my desk……..Cant agree with the economy bit as when nats came in
    labour had virtually no crown debt @ $8 billion
    National crown debt now stands @ $96 billion.
    https://horizonpoll.co.nz/page/479/labour-best?gtid=3031264578076XWC

    Labour best to manage most issues, but not the economy overall
    19 Sep 17

  23. odysseus 26

    Hoots the spin merchant is twittering on about latest UMR polls show Labour vote fading. Anything in this?

  24. AsleepWhileWalking 27

    Children being hospitalized due to malnutrition rockets….yes in NZ

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11923626

  25. mary_a 28

    Could be msm isn’t pursuing the company which damaged the fuel pipeline at Ruakaka, while harvesting swamp kauri, because it might cause some embarrassment to Natz. If any issue needs some investigative journalism, this one certainly does! But to date, nothing at all!

    NZ is definitely not being served by a free and open media, acting as a proxy for the people. Disgraceful!

  26. Liberal Realist 29

    Patrick Gower calls out Nats spreading false information about Labour’s income tax policy.

    http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/opinion/2017/09/patrick-gower-national-guilty-of-biggest-campaign-lie.html

    • Whispering Kate 29.1

      Well for once in his career he has done the right thing – and about time – who would have believed it. Paddy has seen through their lies and corruption – am still shaking my head over it.

  27. eco Maori/kiwi 30

    Now we no that the only thing that trump raised was a pile of cash and no mater how much shit that gets poured on money one can wash money clean.
    My point is if he raised his children he would know that when you don’t give a child a healthy balanced diet they will get sick and in my view all living things are basically chemical factories and we have to make sure that the stock or vegetation and trees every living organism gets the right balanced diet to much of one chemical and the shit hits the fan.
    OUR EARTH IS A LIVING ENTITY AND WE ARE PUT TO MUCH CARBON DIOXIDE INTO OUR LIVING MOTHER AND THE SHIT IS HITTING THE FAN THIS IS A FACT.
    So I say fuck Dum ass Wars or money spent on war everyone on our EARTH has to work together to Heal OUR MOTHER EARTH OR WE ARE FUCKED Ka Pai.

    • greywarshark 30.1

      Why not concentrate on our country. Trump is just part of the USA that looms and overshadows us all and makes our lives seem insignificant. Like a Hollywood sit com with big dark patches. NZ IS IMPORTANT. And we people here are important and our life here is important. We want to have one, and when we get it we want it to be better than just able to feed and house ourselves, just!

      We have to watch the others but keep our eyes on us, and if we don’t no-one else will care. We need to care for all of us in our country 80% and 20% have kindness and interest in the rest of the world.

      Trumpet can doodle out his own song in his own time, not take all of our time.

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