Earning or learning

92 comments on “Earning or learning ”

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1. David Clark 1

   1 September 2011 at 2:14 pm

   The scale of youth unemployment in New Zealand today is a disgrace with 24,000 of New Zealand’s teenagers under 20 not in work, education or training. Under this plan all of our unemployed teenagers will be either earning or learning. The solution is not rocket science. It is just about priorities and making sure everyone is able to contribute to the economy – for the social and economic good of us all.
2. ianmac 2

   1 September 2011 at 2:15 pm

   Sounds good to me. Especially since National collapsed the apprenticeship schemes in the 90s. Be interesting to see how the Key men set about destroying the ideas.
   • Chris 2.1

     2 September 2011 at 6:39 am

     What happened to the apprenticeship scheme in the 90’s?

     I’m a bit young too remember but I seem to remember my cousins etc still doing apprenticeships all through the 90’s?
3. aerobubble 3

   1 September 2011 at 2:16 pm

   Idle hands. Youth have always been a problem when society ignores them.

   Look at the attack on student unionism. What does ACT and Key think the
   purpose of ring fencing young intellectuals inside the university? To keep
   them from growing community links, from activism, from being a nuance
   like their mates who did not join them in university.

   The whole destroy mentality of the right has the counter effect. Long ago
   democracies had a debate, too fund or not to fund and the right got to
   support a policy that kept students active inside universities, the left
   however got to look like they were socialists in a union.

   This is how dumb the rightwing in NZ has become. We are running into
   a world debt crisis, food, water, resources, peak oil, aging, etc, and
   National want to release the floodgates of young radicals into society.
   There are many in the community with money to spend funding such
   revolutionaries of the left and the right, the destablisation will only
   make doing business far harder in NZ.

   So when will the National party split into two, the far right
   authoritarians and the mdoerates for stable conservative values
   of business confidence and certainty (or are they just called the
   labour party).
4. Tom Gould 4

   1 September 2011 at 2:51 pm

   Problem is, the National policy has a loud, built-in dog whistle. The Labour plan, on the other hand, is simply an honest and fair attempt at actually fixing the problem. So I guess that’s the last we will hear of it.
   • just saying 4.1

     1 September 2011 at 5:23 pm

     I’m interested that the reporter and headline writer tried to add in a dog-whistle by using ‘cutting the dole’ when the natural word would be ‘converting’ the dole. ‘Cutting’ doesn’t even make sense in this context.
     I had suspected that its use would have been the work of Labour PR, but I just checked the press-release, and it presented the package much more clearly.
     • Jim Nald 4.1.1

       1 September 2011 at 9:48 pm

       Good stuff, Labour.

       Joyce going sour grapes while, hello, where is Key who is being kept away in cotton wool in case the fragile smile and wave cracks with negativity? The opening lines from that tv presenter joins in the Joyce’s sourness:

       http://tvnz.co.nz/politics-news/dole-money-go-youth-employers-goff-4381232/video

       The Left should just do the right thing (right = morally right, economically wise for the long term). Fork the polls and campaign for what is right and good for the future of the many of us.
5. the pink postman 5

   1 September 2011 at 3:19 pm

   You can bet Crosby/Textor will be working overtime to rubbish this excellent policy. Watch Tory Herald start attacking plus they will, renew their leadership propogander stories. I’m picking that because this could gain votes the Herald will publish a “poll” showing Labour down further!
   Just watch and see. Labour and the Left now have to get stuck in non-stop on this very important policy. Its over due and badly needed. What is more important than our young peoples future ,other than world peace?
   • grumpy 5.1

     1 September 2011 at 3:22 pm

     I think it’s already happened. Kiwiblog has published a post detailing this same promise has been made by Labour every election since 2000! Of course, for most of the time they have been in Government but still done bugger all. How would it be different this time?
     • mickysavage 5.1.1

       1 September 2011 at 3:58 pm

       Grumpy way too simplistic.  Labour has always had a policy about youth training and apprenticeships.  The policy got kinda wrecked with cuts made by the tories recently so of course Labour had to redo the policy.
        
       And it is funded.  Eventual tax increases and diverted expenditure will take care of that.
       • bigbruv 5.1.1.1

         1 September 2011 at 4:21 pm

         Tax increases Micky?

         So Labour plan to hammer the middle classes again so they can give more of my money to parasites and DPB slappers do they?

         At least you are being honest about increasing our taxes.
         • Vicky32 5.1.1.1.1

           1 September 2011 at 5:10 pm

           So Labour plan to hammer the middle classes again so they can give more of my money to parasites and DPB slappers do they?

           Sigh… you are obsessive aren’t you? It’s not your money any more, when it has become the tax you pay.
         • Tiger Mountain 5.1.1.1.2

           1 September 2011 at 5:23 pm

           Harr effing harr, you whimp Bruv. Would that be the ‘dirty filthy bennie middle class’ who pick up Working for Families payola from ‘our’ tax dollar. More whimps that are too self absorbed and gutless to organise for collective agreements and get their own wage increases from their employers rather than the taxpayer?

           It is about the money go round ultimately and your tory mates only want the flow to go one way.
           • bigbruv 5.1.1.1.2.1

             1 September 2011 at 6:24 pm

             What organise a collective agreement and get unions involved?

             Why the hell would I want to do that?, why would I trust my income to some low life union hack like honest Mat McCarten.
         • katie 5.1.1.1.3

           1 September 2011 at 7:54 pm

           DPB slappers??? Nice to see sexism as well as ignorance is alive and kicking. You know it takes a man AND a woman to produce a child, right? Or did your daddy not give you that little talk?
           • MrSmith 5.1.1.1.3.1

             2 September 2011 at 5:10 pm

             Don’t sweat it Katie, LittleBruv must have got the brush off once from what he would refers to as a DPB slapper, my guess is still he’s still bitter and twisted about it, or maybe he even made it to the bedroom with one of the slappers, then she laughed as Bigbruv didn’t live up to his name.
         • mik e 5.1.1.1.4

           1 September 2011 at 10:26 pm

           Big Luv the dpb is at its highest aver under your rednecks govt up by 20,000 the biggest numbers since 1990 up from 89,000 to 113,000 thats hypocrasy for you thats what the double dipping dpstick from dipton is borrowing for!And you are being dishonest with your compliments.
         • millsy 5.1.1.1.5

           1 September 2011 at 10:34 pm

           Our schools and hospitals are more important than lower taxes for you? I suppose you want our young to flip burgers for .50c an hour.
           • bigbruv 5.1.1.1.5.1

             1 September 2011 at 11:22 pm

             They sure as hell are not worth any more than ten dollars an hour.

             Mind you, Labour are happy for our youth to sit at home on the dole than have them in full time work at $10 an hour, such is the corrupt and uncaring power of the scum union movement.
             • millsy …

               1 September 2011 at 11:35 pm

               Yes they bloody hell are you dickhead.

               I am sick of people who want to hold wages down, cut them, bring back slavery, make people work long hours for a subsistence.

               And you want to ban unions, and leave workers at the mercy of filthy bosses like you, who would sack workers if they had to pick their kids up.

               Do you get off on sacking workers?

               Are you a landlord too? Did you put your rent up this year? If you did then you are a filthy sticking hypocrite.
               • Colonial Viper …

                 2 September 2011 at 5:19 pm

                 Max Keiser speaks of modern slavery and indentured servitude in the western world.

                 In the old US you had to pay the equivalent of US$40K for a slave. Now you can pick one up for less than US$100.
         • Deadly_NZ 5.1.1.1.6

           2 September 2011 at 8:28 am

           See the Little Troll.
           See the little troll.Spin, spin, spin.
           See the little troll hero worship the big troll.
           See the little troll broke and hungry.
           Why oh Why did that happen cries the little troll.
           You trusted the big troll and he lied to you.
           See the little troll cry.

           There you go a bedtime story for BB
     • Puddleglum 5.1.2

       1 September 2011 at 7:51 pm

       Hi Grumpy,

       These stats suggest that the youth unemployment rate was on a steady and significant decline all through Labour’s term in office so how do you get your claim that:

       “Of course, for most of the time they have been in Government but still done bugger all. How would it be different this time?” 

       Since 2008 we’ve gone back up to – what is it now? Yes, I know, global recession, abolition of youth rates yadda, yadda, yadda. The fact is those numbers are now twice as high as they were and National is sitting on its hands waiting for the market to ‘correct’ the situation – oh, and ‘targeting’ one or two thousand IYB recipients.

       That should fix it. Both thumbs up bum and John Key rescuing teenage mothers who are being used as ‘sources of cash’ by unprincipled teenage boy predators … (I still can’t believe he actually said that to defend direct control over spending the IYB.)
6. TightyRighty 6

   1 September 2011 at 3:21 pm

   This just got super-fisked by farrar. The whole idea got owned by a simple checking of facts of the last five times labour presented this “new”policy. Tax and spend and to hell with the consequences right?
   • grumpy 6.1

     1 September 2011 at 3:25 pm

     Labour have a big problem – history.
   • Rijab 6.2

     1 September 2011 at 3:32 pm

     So I guess a benefit card is the answer, right?
     • TightyRighty 6.2.1

       1 September 2011 at 3:40 pm

       probably, there is going to be a ton of young labour needing it shortly. Gotta make sure they don’t get on the hammer and start whining how it’s not fair they aren’t rich. at least nationals plan is cheaper and targets the problems. This is just a grab bag of bollocks from labour. I look into my crystal ball and see the return of hip hop tours.
       • Rijab 6.2.1.1

         1 September 2011 at 4:12 pm

         You’re living in lala land mate, not every person in this world is a self centered narcissist blinded by the pursuit of material wealth. In fact a lot of young labour supporters I’ve encountered appear to be volunteering a shitload of their own time and effort for this election.

         I look into my crystal ball and see an economic collapse and massive social disorder created via Nationals systemic destruction of our social cohesion. I don’t know how much you read/ are aware of political history/ the global economic and environment, but my crystal ball is wanting me to inform you that you’re walking onto the wrong side of history. Enjoy the delusion while it lasts.
         • TightyRighty 6.2.1.1.1

           1 September 2011 at 4:28 pm

           your right, not every person is self centred and narcissistic or in pursuit of wealth. I am also not self centred or narcissistic. i’m volunteering to help out national in rongotai, probably a lost cause but a worthy one. I’m blatantly in pursuit of more wealth though. the hunger for more is what drives me to work ridiculous hours and flag having a life. It does mean I need to be incredibly well read about the world and whats happening in it and to network with people who have insights in fields relevant to what I do. It also helps having an economics degree, so i’ll pull the lprent and say that because i have an economics degree and you probably don’t, you are wrong. At least I’m like a proper crystal ball gazer, making assumptions and guesses based on observations. Not just bullshit lines from blue star digital that i regurgitate on command to “silence the righties”
           • Rijab 6.2.1.1.1.1

             1 September 2011 at 4:40 pm

             You’re entitled to believe whatever you want and I’m not one to question that right. I wish you all the best in life, and I appreciate you volunteering time for the maintenance of our democracy.

             I look forward to having a similiar conversation in three years time, we can realign our crystal balls then if that’ll tickle your fancy!
             • TightyRighty …

               1 September 2011 at 5:01 pm

               you want to realign both our balls so you can tickle my fancy? Calm down dude, wrong site.
               • Rijab …

                 1 September 2011 at 5:10 pm

                 Just a bit of lighthearted antagonism … lets not get into confusion over what balls we’re talking about now!
               • mik e …

                 1 September 2011 at 5:46 pm

                 Your righty tighty the right always likes punish the poor and indulge in sado masochism .Just about all the movies that have right wing themes always have their token dragster dressed up in bondage gear.
               • mik e …

                 1 September 2011 at 10:30 pm

                 Tighty almightyYour trying to inoculate your self against your narcissistic steak it hasn’t worked yet.
           • Colonial Viper 6.2.1.1.1.2

             1 September 2011 at 4:41 pm

             TR claims himself to be “incredibly well read”

             But judging from the quality of your posts, none of your reading sticks.

             Not here to “silence” the Righties. Not even here to “convince” the Righties.

             Both would be a waste of time and energy.
           • lprent 6.2.1.1.1.3

             1 September 2011 at 5:35 pm

             …i’ll pull the lprent and say that because i have an economics degree and you probably don’t, you are wrong..

             If you ever look at when I use that particular statement (degree in topic), it is invariably after someone goes and says that I don’t know what I’m talking about in whatever field (usually earth sciences or managerial related areas). Similarly I will state my experience in other areas that I have expertise and why – campaigning, programming, etc.

             I don’t state that the other person is wrong because of it. What I say is that they are wrong about my knowledge in particular areas.

             I will however state that they are incorrect in whatever they were waffling about because of some specified reasons. It doesn’t have much to do with the degree – it is because they were talking shit and then trying to get on their ‘intellectual’ high horse to avoid dealing with objections to their crap that I’d already put forward.

             The most common area for this is earth sciences because the classic denier line is that they have “studied” the topic (ie read some bullshit denier blogs) and that I have not. This is usually when they are stating crap that violates basic earth science principles because they’re looking at an effect in isolation and/or in a limited timeframe. What they usually demonstrate is that you have to have to have systematically studied some scientific principles of a field before you can understand science. Going around and picking up talking points from PR funded sites definitely doesn’t cut the mustard….
           • mik e 6.2.1.1.1.4

             1 September 2011 at 10:28 pm

             Victoria universty no doubt chicago ‘s little bro
           • Deadly_NZ 6.2.1.1.1.5

             2 September 2011 at 8:36 am

             Well with an Economics degree you should be more qualified to run the economy than the incumbent incompetent who has nothing more than a bloody Commerce and English Lit degrees. But the way you rattle on, then you would just be as dumb as the wanker in charge of the purse strings, and work to rip off NZ. for your own gains just like the NACTS are doing.
   • mik e 6.3

     1 September 2011 at 5:42 pm

     They’ll have to copy the borrow and hope of national.More tax cuts for the rich trickle down and spin
   • millsy 6.4

     1 September 2011 at 10:36 pm

     What’s wrong with tax and spend? What would you do? Give them jobs flipping burgers at 50c an hour?

     And we need decent hospitals for our sick. That is why we tax and spend. TO PAY FOR HOSPITALS.

     HOW MANY DO YOU WANT TO CLOSE?
7. JS 7

   1 September 2011 at 3:50 pm

   The last Labour govt brought back apprenticeships which had been axed under National, extended the Gateway programme from just some low decile schools to all schools and opened up the universities and polytechs to more people, and had a Schools Plus programme rolling out which would have seen everyone under 18 in appropriate training or at school or employment. Just a few of the things I remember.

   The grumpy middle aged of Kiwiblog are just so in touch with youth!
8. bigbruv 8

   1 September 2011 at 4:19 pm

   Dear oh dear!…Goof really cannot get anything right can he.
   • Deadly_NZ 8.1

     2 September 2011 at 8:39 am

     FUCK OFF!
     Maybe if you tried to have an informed discussion (something thats alien to the NACTS and their supporters) But spinning and dog whistling is easier for you lot.
     • millsy 8.1.1

       2 September 2011 at 8:44 am

       I second that…
9. Gareth 9

   1 September 2011 at 4:21 pm

   Hmm, a step in the right direction I think. Currently Winz pays a fair amount of the wages of staff we employ through them for the first few months, so I would say some of the funding is already there, We should also make ‘pre trade courses’ defunct and use the funding that goes into holding these to fund a scheme where an apprentices wages/ training are heavily subsidized for the 1st year, after which they should know the basics and be able to function as a part of the business without funding.

   To stop pricks that may try to rort the system, The subsidy should be bonded to ensure an apprentice keeps getting training for the next 2- 3 years as required until they get their trades.
   Any employer that drops the ball with this looses future access to the system.
   The Ito’s will be able to track this as they will be able to see which apprentices are still doing/having unit standards ordered.
10. Kevin Welsh 10

    1 September 2011 at 5:27 pm

    While I think the idea has merit, what worries me is what is considered an apprenticeship these days?

    My apprenticeship was 5 years/10,000 hours. I HAD to complete 40 assignments a year via correspondence for three years. I attended 18 weeks of block courses at ATI. I was credited overtime against my hours and I received time off for completion of assignments and passing end of course examinations. I was taught by older experienced tradespeople whose rule was law and I did what I was told. I now consider myself to be probably the most experienced and knowledgeable person in my trade between Auckland and Wellington. Every day I still learn a little more and I know that I will never know everything about my industry.

    What is termed a modern apprenticeship in my industry (printing/graphic design) lasts a year. You do a limited amount of assignments and a 1 week block course.

    It churns out idiots by the busload who think they know it all when the literally know fuck all and they expect the kind of wages that took me years of hard work, working from the bottom up.

    Unless there is a completely new look at what is considered an apprenticeship, then this is something I would find hard to support.
    • Lanthanide 10.1

      1 September 2011 at 5:33 pm

      I’ve wondered about this sort of thing for a while. What happens in 10-30 years time when all of the *real* electricians, electronics experts, plumbers and carpenters retire?
      • The Voice of Reason 10.1.1

        1 September 2011 at 6:07 pm

        More leaky homes for one thing. The Nats doing away with apprentices in the nineties added cheap, unskilled labour to a deregulated industry. Current apprentices are still being ripped off in the industry, forced to become dependent contractors during the term of their apprenticeship. That is, instead of being a waged employee, a 16 year old trainee is forced to become self employed before they are even old enough to have a credit history, let alone business nous.
         
    • Colonial Viper 10.2

      1 September 2011 at 7:27 pm

      +1

      Having completed an apprenticeship in the old days used to mean something serious.
    • Deadly_NZ 10.3

      2 September 2011 at 8:45 am

      And suffered the endless jokes by the ‘older experienced tradespeople’ Like the long weight, left handed screwdriver, and many others that were sprung before the PC crowd ruined all the fun, and the NActs then killed the apprenticeships.
      • millsy 10.3.1

        2 September 2011 at 8:52 am

        The bucket of steam was a good one to I hear….
11. bigbruv 11

    1 September 2011 at 6:26 pm

    Of course doing away with the youth wage has got nothing to do with youth unemployment has it…..

    Why not just admit that Labour got it wrong, bring back youth rates and that will go a long way to fixing the problem.
    • Puddleglum 11.1

      1 September 2011 at 10:49 pm

      In 1991, the youth unemployment rate was 18.8%. This was when the new entrant’s rate was in its previous incarnation as a comprehensive youth minimum wage. It didn’t seem to help then when the recession was nothing like the one now.

      For the record, the New Zealand government’s response to the recession that hit at the end of the 80s and into the 90s (i.e., leave it to the market) meant that young New Zealanders died in record numbers by their own hands. Finland responded differently to the recession and lost fewer of its young people.
    • Deadly_NZ 11.2

      2 September 2011 at 8:48 am

      And let you and your mates use them as slaves. But Slavery was supposed to have been abandoned in the 18th century. But as usual the NACTS will ignore that and carry on as usual.
12. The Voice of Reason 12

    1 September 2011 at 6:29 pm

    Youth unemployment, and unemployment generally, were historically low under Clark. What was your point again?
13. Bored 13

    1 September 2011 at 6:31 pm

    Bruv and Tighty, it is so reassuring to see you both turn up when the any increase of social costs levied against your filthy lucre is mentioned…consistent avarice and greed. WYSIWYG no less. Admirably nasty.

    I also see that you are extremely keen to rob others futures by way of allowing a tax regime that requires huge borrowing from offshore to deliver. Socialise the debt to the rest of us whilst feathering your nests. Very generous of you, consistent scumbag behavoir.
14. Tiger Mountain 14

    1 September 2011 at 6:38 pm

    You really exhibit the behaviour of a classic lunkhead troll Bruv, go back to your mates D4J and RodBeater. The annoying things known as facts and stats and substantiated reasearch totally waste your wishful tory suck up utterances. Check out the archive of graphs on this very site.

    Previous youth rates were age discrimination pure and simple, their demise actually had a positive effect on youth employment under the previous government. Kind of academic anyway with such high youth unemployment under your tory sheep shagging mates.
15. Nick C 15

    1 September 2011 at 6:53 pm

    I love it that if National had announced an identical policy you would all be leaping on the ‘THEY ARE CUTTING THE DOLE!!’ bandwagon.

    Also by the metric that the left most commonly uses this wont solve the problem. You seem to think that the problem isnt the lack of skilled labour, but the lack of demand for labour. Training people wont solve that problem, it will just mean that the people who businesses dont want to employ because they dont need/want more workers are trained.

    If you think the problem is that businesses want workers, they just cant afford to train them properly, then isnt this just a form of corperate welfare? It also seems to arbitrarily discriminate between different industries. What about the unemployed youth who want to become bank tellers instead of builders? This does nothing for them.
    • Eddie 15.1

      1 September 2011 at 7:24 pm

      “I love it that if National had announced an identical policy you would all be leaping on the ‘THEY ARE CUTTING THE DOLE!!’ bandwagon.”

      evidence?
    • Colonial Viper 15.2

      1 September 2011 at 7:25 pm

      Why you against corporate welfare all of a sudden? Just because this is a youth centred model, not a capitalist business owner centred model?
      • Nick C 15.2.1

        1 September 2011 at 7:56 pm

        Eddie: Well on its face this policy appears to be taking money from beneficiaries to give to companies (privitisation as well?!?). That would be more than enough to generate half a dozen blog post. Now I cant prove it because National haven’t actually announced this policy. But come on, presumably you read your own blog.

        CV: I have always been against corperate welfare. What on earth do you mean ‘youth centred model’? Its giving money straight to businesses!
        • felix 15.2.1.1

          1 September 2011 at 10:31 pm

          On it’s face, your comment appears to have been written by a retarded goldfish.

          It’s a wage subsidy. Think it through, Nick.
        • HC 15.2.1.2

          2 September 2011 at 2:38 am

          National believes in a dumb workforce, because they have done F*** All in regards to getting youth involved. Bennett pipes up and wants to (after being told to do so) introduce a “payment card” to 16 and 17 year olds having failed, left school and no future. Also the 18 year old parents are to be included in that plan. What an ingenious recipe. So how may jobs, how many training ops is such a measure providing?? NONE. National talks, has not delivered a plan, punishes the beneficiaries under “collective punishment” without using fair rules to only enforce payment cards on truly problematic cases, has NO real answers to get the economy going AFTER the Rugby World Cup, and so we are supposed to listen to YOU? I feel that you have lost the plot and are only trying to mischievously stir up nonsensical arguments here. Go to Kiwi Blog to enhance the deteriorating IQ level there, perhaps. Good Luck.
16. RedBaron 16

    1 September 2011 at 7:18 pm

    Hey BigBruv.
    Why don’t we get all those man ho’s that dump their kids on the welfare to pay for them? That might get rid of one of your problems.
17. davidc 17

    1 September 2011 at 7:29 pm

    I did an 8000 hr lag. It was utterly fantastic for me, tho at the time it drove me to near psychotic rage and hatred of some of the tradesmen I worked under.
    IMHO we need today, a LOW starting wage and a wage linked requirement that the “lads” do the paperwork because most of them wont unless forced at gunpoint.
    From memory I started on 45% of the minimum tradesmans wage.
    • Kevin Welsh 17.1

      1 September 2011 at 8:12 pm

      I started on 45% of the qualified tradespersons wage as well. Completing assignments and passing courses at 5% a pop was a great incentive to learn and apply myself.
    • Colonial Viper 17.2

      1 September 2011 at 9:32 pm

      From memory I started on 45% of the minimum tradesmans wage.

      Plus we should rebuild the unions to ensure that the minimum tradesmans wage is decent. Just like back then: certainly enough to raise a family on.
      • bigbruv 17.2.1

        1 September 2011 at 11:28 pm

        Lol…good luck with rebuilding the unions Viper.

        There is no way on earth that Kiwis will flock back to the unions, most cannot see any need for them and most see unions as nothing short of parasites who leech union dues from hard working men and women.

        Oh…and unions are not keen on paying taxs either it seems.

        Or..are you talking about making unions compulsory again Viper?
        • millsy 17.2.1.1

          1 September 2011 at 11:31 pm

          What about decent working conditions?

          Sick leave?
          holiday pay?
          Penalty rates?

          If we dont have unions we would have slavery. Give me one example of the union free economy?
    • millsy 17.3

      1 September 2011 at 10:37 pm

      What is this obsession with people like you have with holding wages down? Why not just bring back slavery? You going to tell landlords to hold their rents down, or power companies to hold their prices down?
      • Colonial Viper 17.3.1

        1 September 2011 at 10:47 pm

        You going to tell landlords to hold their rents down, or power companies to hold their prices down?

        That would be against their neoliberal free market profiteering ‘principles’.

        Can’t have a society which works for all, must only work for the top 5%.
        • bigbruv 17.3.1.1

          1 September 2011 at 11:00 pm

          The trouble with that idea Viper is that a large sector of our community do not want to work yet they still want the fruits of everybody else’s labor.

          This is not helped by left wing parties telling these parasites that they are entitled to more of my money simply because it gains those same left wing parties more votes.

          Labour handed out more and more of my money to people who do not want to work and have no intention of ever working yet we have not seen any drop in social problems.

          The truth of the matter is that the way of the left has not worked, it is time for a new approach and time to get tough with long term bludgers and DPB slappers.
          • millsy 17.3.1.1.1

            1 September 2011 at 11:03 pm

            Do you want the poor on the street then. Do you want to bring back slavery?

            Why are you a mean, horrible nasty person?
            • bigbruv 17.3.1.1.1.1

              1 September 2011 at 11:19 pm

              Not the poor, just the bludgers.

              Why are you so happy to keep throwing money at people who have no intention of ever working for a living?

              Vouchers and food stamps is the way to go, along with time limts on the dole and doing away with the dpb.

              We also need to get a lot tougher with the thousands of people Labour shifted to the invalid and sickness benefits in their last term in power, these people need to be told that they will be work tested every week if need be.
              • millsy …

                1 September 2011 at 11:30 pm

                And what if the time limits run out?: Do they all come and move into your house then?
                • bigbruv …

                  1 September 2011 at 11:35 pm

                  Watch them find jobs….

                  How about the hundreds of people we have to bring in from the islands to pick fruit every season because the parasites in the Hawkes Bay will not do the work?

                  Every single unemployed person who is claiming the dole should be told that when it comes to fruit picking season they have two choices, go and pick the fruit or have their benefit cut off.

                  Why do you think it is OK for people to sit at home and get paid to do nothing?
                  • millsy …

                    1 September 2011 at 11:36 pm

                    SO THEY HAVE A DECENT STANDARD OF LIVING YOU MEAN NASTY HORRIBLE PERSON

                    DO YOU WANT TO BRING BACK SLAVERY??

                    ANSWER ME?
                  • Colonial Viper …

                    2 September 2011 at 12:13 am

                    Why do you think it is OK for people to sit at home and get paid to do nothing?

                    Dont be stupid just because they aren’t making money for capitalists in the capitalist money making machine, it does not mean they are not contributing in society.
18. Tombstone 18

    1 September 2011 at 8:46 pm

    Long time coming and once again I applaud Labour for finding productive ways to stimulate the economy and find ways to help get people into work without having to behave like a pack of bullies in the process. Kids need hope and they need skills – apprenticeships are the perfect foundation by which to build upon those things and any one claiming that subsidizing apprenticeships is somehow an inferior option to benefit cards and basically the go nowhere policies of National must have bloody rocks in their head. What’s National’s plan? … Benefit card. Woop dee do!
    • Jim Nald 18.1

      1 September 2011 at 9:51 pm

      Le magic card. What else are bankers good at? Print more of them credit cards and try get us hooked on more debt.
19. MrSmith 19

    1 September 2011 at 9:17 pm

    This is what’s needed for some of these kids and CHCH is a great opportunity for anyone wanting to get into the building trades, I did my time and started on bugger all compared to my mates but in the long run it was worth it, I wish I had of stayed at school longer, but no regrets.

    Apprenticeships are a good lesson in discipline, stay the course and you can call yourself a tradesman, have trade will travel. Food and shelter are the most basic of human needs, so you will always have a job providing shelter.
    These jobs also tend to bring your mates to the worksite and in my case lots of my friends hired on while I was doing my time, it starts of with we need a hand for a few days and just mushrooms from there.
    Good stuff labour. 
20. Kiwi in China 20

    1 September 2011 at 9:18 pm

    It is hardly like this has been a recent thing, more like one which Labour are finally bringing to people’s opinions, even though opinion writers on the NZ Herald have been talking about it for over a year. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10665066

    National do have rocks in their heads. After watching a clip on tv3 online, saying that Steven Joyce’s problem with this is that it doesn’t help the economy, it becomes obvious. Ok, so maybe it won’t change the economy in the next 6 months, but for the future there will be more young people with opportunities to benefit the economy in the long run. The current crop of muppets, led by the puppeteer John Key who smiles and waves, or “believes that it isn’t the truth or important” as a way of side stepping the hard truth, has nothing but the short term for the rich at heart. If you want to see him at his best, I recommend you watch his appearance on BBC’s Hardtalk, where he is actually forced to answer the questions from someone who is more informed about NZ than John Key himself is.
21. Afewknwothetruth 21

    1 September 2011 at 11:26 pm

    It needs to be said every couple of days, otherwise the discussion get too far removed from reality: we are in the early stages of a reversal of the Industrial Rovolution becaause we are rapidly running out of cheap abunmdant oil, and we are in probably the last decades of having a habitable planet to live on because nobody is doing anything useful to curb out-of-control emissions. We are headed stright into an abript climate change event.

    I fail to see how apprenticeships have much relevance to a post peak oil society we are headed into, unless they are for basic blacksmith work, the repair and maintenace of hand tools and bicycles, basic agricutlure and basic medicine etc.

    Almost everything else will be completely ‘down the drain’ by 2025 at the latest, and more likely down the drain by 2020.

    The Labour leadership remains locked into fantasies and delusions associated with the redundant paradigms of industrialism, of course.
    • ropata 21.1

      2 September 2011 at 12:15 am

      Basic practical skills and the ability to make stuff work will always be worthwhile you drongo
    • HC 21.2

      2 September 2011 at 2:19 am

      well, teaching people to grow crops, to do horticulture, agricultural jobs, viticulture, build homes, fix car or other engines, build generators and machinery that can be used in sustainable, environmentally friendly energy production, to catch fish and keep aqualculture farms working in a healthy and yet productive way, to learn to do simple things and open their minds to improvements, leading to social and economic advancement, whether peak oil will hit soon or later, that cannot be a bad thing, for sure. So be less negative, push your agenda for environmentally healty and productive jobs and enterprises, force government to get away from oil and limited resources, and get ahead. We should in NZ have solar water heating or even solar energy generation, be this through solar panels or other means, as a total STANDARD. We have more sun than many countries in Europe, but Germany has some cities already supplied almost exclusively by solar and similar alternative energy. Why do we sleep, procrastinate and always moan, when we could have so much energy for even powering public transport in the way of electrically powered trains? We could generate enough energy to powerand heat our homes, better insulate them and have all the hydro electric energy available to power electric trains and trams, as well as for production of industrial and other products in the industry. Has anybody even thought this far in NZ? I can only say Go Greens, Go Greens, there is NOTHING to lose, we have so many resources and so much to win. Wake up NZ!
22. HC 22

    2 September 2011 at 1:47 am

    I wrote this before, but due to dumb website and internet issues, all was lost. So again: Phil Goff has got it right, so does Labour (at last). This is a very positive move and smart policy, which should put many young people in this country on track. Those that do not enter tertiary education have a great chance to get a training opportunity that gives them skills that will lead to better pay, a better future and brings the country forward. Apprenticeships are more or less standard training in most Central European countries, which are some of the most succesful economies in the world. They are that because they believe in training and education. So Phil has got it right, so does Labour. I could do even better, because ALL youth who do have no chance to enter tertiary education should be given the chance to do an apprenticeship or similar job training. The government AND business should by law be forced to cooperate and offer such opportunities. Also we need healty investment and development policies to create the jobs in a growing economy that will employ such skilled people in NZ, rather than train them to head across the Tasman. That is all possible. Value added production of products from our primary production may be a start, earning more than milk powder, logs and raw fish. Have National such ideas and plans, telll me if they do! For some positive spiritual inspiration for better times listen to this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jppkff5mk34&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEj7jnR–Dg&feature=list_related&playnext=1&list=PLD5B5A871D6D13C01
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86LSuXi5TLU&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7F_9FEx7ymg
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfy18_J15rE&feature=related
    and just to relax a bit:
    
23. HC 23

    2 September 2011 at 3:02 am

    Also this clearly destroys the nonsensical myth that National likes to spread, that Labour likes to keep youth on benefits and not bother to get them to do anything. That presumption has always been total BS, and now it is proved beyond doubt. Of course no miracles can happen, and while youth are looking for such training, and while employers look at the skills they may have, they need to be offered decent support by WiNZ to get by, as long as they need this. So those criticising Labour’s program for “denying” the dole or benefit, get things real and straighten up.
24. Afewknwothetruth 24

    2 September 2011 at 8:53 am

    There are plrnty of ‘drongos’ (to quote ropata) who just don’t get it. In fact, at this point of time most people just don’t get it.

    The end of industrialism is the end of industrialism. That means no more engines to maintain, no more solar panels, no more industrrial agriculture, no more fishing fleets, no electrical grid etc. The western world is in the process of returning to normal, i.e. how people lived before the mass exraction of fossil fuels changed everything.

    This: ‘build generators and machinery that can be used in sustainable , environmentally friendly energy production’ must be one of the stupidest statements of the day. Industrial civilisation is, by definition, unsustanable.

    We are in the early stages of complete planetary meltdown due to industrialism. And people just want to keep doing it [destroying their own and their progeney’s futures]. Not being informed of the facts or denying them does not change the course we are on, I’m afraid.

    Industrial diesease, otherwise known as wetiko. has a spectacular effect on the mind and leads to all kinds of distorted thinking, in particular that you can ‘kill’ a planet and live on it too.

    Anyone who writes something like this:

    ‘Why do we sleep, procrastinate and always moan, when we could have so much energy for even powering public transport in the way of electrically powered trains? We could generate enough energy to powerand heat our homes, better insulate them and have all the hydro electric energy available to power electric trains and trams, as well as for production of industrial and other products in the industry’

    clearly has close to zero understanding of energy and the environment.
    • ropata 24.1

      2 September 2011 at 9:36 am

      So maybe the universities should offer courses in how to survive the apocalypse?
      Forget about building anything for the future, let’s all revert to medieval luddite society, the end is nigh!! Do you have a sandwich board and a bell as well?

      I think you have a lack of respect for the ingenuity of the common homo sapiens.
      • aerobubble 24.1.1

        2 September 2011 at 1:23 pm

        We’re heading for a heavy reflective moment in the way we view the universe.
        From a Christian materialism, the universe owing us a masterful living, to
        a pre-industrial version. Sure it won’t be a collapse. New energy sources
        will be found, but one thing I think for sure is the death of the personal
        private automobile. Not only do we not have the fuels, but our population
        means we can’t all have one anyway, the resources aren’t there.
        The whole way we commute to work which made us all so apathic will
        have to redesigned, control through apathy will have to be reinvented.
25. millsy 25

    2 September 2011 at 10:50 am

    OK, time for some constructive comments about this issue.

    Good start, but could go further.

    Not everyone is suitable for a trade, just as not everyone is suitable to be a doctor, or lawyer. Back in the good old days, there used to be cadetships in the public and private sector which fitted in between uni training and apprenticeships. Cadetships are the missing piece in the puzzle. I suggest that Goff think about perhaps funding the SOE sector to offer cadetship places, and then roll them out to the private sector in due course.

    Trouble is everything is outsourced and sub contracted these days, so such moves would be a nightmare.

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1. Hold the front page! « The Standard: posted on 3 September 2011 at 7:29 am

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