Greens: free dental care for all

Written By: - Date published: 6:10 am, August 7th, 2023 - 75 comments
Categories: election 2023, greens, health - Tags: ,

Press Release from the Greens

_________________________________________________________________

The Green Party is today promising to make dental care free for everyone in Aotearoa.

“The time is now to make dental care free for everyone and to pay for it with a fair tax system,” says Green Party co-leader Marama Davidson. 

“Right now, oral health is a luxury few can afford. Every year millions of people put off going to the dentist because it is too damn expensive. The average cost of going to the dentist is around $350, so it’s hardly surprising that with food, rent, mortgage repayments, and power bills going up, so many people are choosing not to go. 

“Problems then, of course build up. People spend their lives in agony. It is heartbreaking to think that the situation gets so bad for some that they are taking pliers to their own teeth in a desperate attempt to fix problems that have spiralled out of control.

“Let’s be clear: the current dental care system in Aotearoa is broken and cruel. This hasn’t happened by accident, but is the consequence of political decisions successive governments have made to exclude dental care from the public health system. This has got to change. 

“Under our plan, everyone in Aotearoa will be able to visit the dentist when they need to through a new community-based New Zealand Dental Service, which will also provide emergency and complex dental services through local hospitals or specialist sites. 

“The Green Party will finally end the indifference successive governments have shown to dental care and guarantee everyone the dental care they need, when they need it,” says Marama Davidson. 

Green Party co-leader James Shaw added:

“It should not be the case that in a wealthy country like ours there are hundreds of thousands of people who cannot afford to go to the dentist, even for a basic check up. 

“Dental care for adults in Aotearoa is now among the most expensive in the world. Unbelievably, we have a higher rate of unmet dental care in Aotearoa because of cost than even the United States.

“Seventeen years ago, the former Prime Minister Helen Clark expanded dental care from our youngest children to everyone aged 18 and under. The time is now to finish the job. 

“Free dental will be fully funded through fair and simple changes to the tax system that will unlock the resources we need. Every dollar will come from those most able to contribute.

“Our fully costed plan will give everyone the peace of mind that no matter what, they can visit the dentist when they need to,” says James Shaw.

_________________________________________________________________

Policy overview and link to full policy.

Policy release speech by Marama Davidson. Transcript is here.

Media coverage

RadioNZ

A poll earlier this year found three-quarters of voters back free dental care.

A poll earlier this year found three-quarters of voters back free dental care.

Earlier this year, then-Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern said it would be “enormously expensive”.

The Greens estimated it would cost $1.41 billion in the first year, rising to $1.71b in the 2025 and 2026. Buying a few hundred more dental vans would cost $150 million.

“We anticipate that costs will decrease long-term as a greater focus on preventative care improves oral health outcomes for all New Zealanders,” the party said.

75 comments on “Greens: free dental care for all ”

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  1. KJT 1
    7 August 2023 at 6:45 am

    Note"' The "media" are very carefull to keep to the meme that Greens are about "tax increases" being very careful to avoid any mention of the fact that Green tax policies will result in tax cuts for those with income under 125k, and improved Government services and infrastructure for everyone.

    https://thestandard.org.nz/wp-admin/post.php?post=888835&action=edit&classic-editor
    “Once upon a time, in a world far away” we had these people called “reporters”.
    ”An honourable profession, who considered it their job to keep the public accurately and completely informed.”

    Lying by ommission, which again highlights the bias and failure of the shock jocks posing as "Journalists", pervading most media.

  2. KJT 2
    7 August 2023 at 6:54 am

    How many billions are National proposing to spend on paving every inch of farmland in the country for cars, again?

    • MickeyBoyle 2.1
      7 August 2023 at 1:57 pm

      Roughly half of what Labour is intending to spend, just in Auckland…

      Attacking National on their RONS spending is almost irrelevant given this governments own recently announced spending plans.

      It is understandable why the Greens have hammered Labour on this, when you look at the details.

  3. Descendant Of Smith 3
    7 August 2023 at 9:12 am

    I had always understood that dentists had never wanted to have capped fees as part of joining a government scheme as G.P's do hence never being part of a scheme.

    Hospitals were to provide dental treatment for the disabled and low income people but have gradually wound down their dental services, closed hospitals and shifted the cost from the health budget to welfare grants which of course the dentists love cause it is more profit for them.

    Health have been offloading their costs for years – mental health the classic example of which a large amount is now with the prison service.

    • Corokia 3.1
      7 August 2023 at 9:26 am

      Most dentists ARE part of the capped fee scheme to provide free dental care to under 18s

      • Descendant Of Smith 3.1.1
        7 August 2023 at 10:22 am

        “All the dentists who felt that adult dental care should be fully privately funded were from conventional or corporate-owned practices.”

        These people are directly or indirectly responsible for the financial management of their practices. “As such, cost and profit considerations are more likely to influence their opinions and treatment decisions … since Government-regulated remuneration rates do not match either the level of private fees or the real cost of providing quality care,” the authors wrote.

        The percentage of dentists who thought their work should be “fully publicly funded” was 2.6 per cent. Less than 14 per cent though dentistry should be “mostly public funded”.

        https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/124979260/most-dentists-think-a-publiclyfunded-dentistry-system-wont-work

        “While adult oral health is not subsidised the poor oral health of children in New Zealand was so bad that the Government introduced the state-funded School Dental Service in 1921. It was a world first and was introduced against strong opposition from some professional dentists.”

        “By the early 1970s the health of children’s teeth had improved. There were fewer fillings and extractions and about 60 percent of pre-schoolers and almost 100 percent of primary school aged children were registered with the service.

        With such an outstanding record of success it is hard to know why the service was not continued as it was but, in the 1980s, dental nurses became dental therapists with an emphasis on oral health education and prevention rather than direct intervention.

        The dental health of school children has been in decline ever since and that dreadful situation continued when they reached adulthood.”

        https://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/104693989/dental-subsidy-worth-chewing-over

      • Belladonna 3.1.2
        7 August 2023 at 11:05 am

        Many dentists won't accept patients in the under 18 category.
        They make more money off fee-paying adults, than a capped government fee.

        Recently looking at enrolling my teen at a dentist – out of 22 local dentists (i.e. within a reasonable radius of where we live) – a grand total of 2 were accepting teen patients.

        • Descendant Of Smith 3.1.2.1
          7 August 2023 at 11:17 am

          Some also refuse to take people on benefits. No profit and they might not pay their bill. Cosmetic surgery is where it is at. Bright, shiny white and straight teeth.

  4. Mike the Lefty 4
    7 August 2023 at 9:38 am

    It takes the Greens to come up with a policy that Labour should have come up with. This is a very worthy policy and would actually SAVE money in the long run because keeping people's teeth healthy has a positive flow on effect on general health. My grandmother always said to me "if you have good teeth, you have good health" and she was right!

    The cost of $1.4 billion a year looks pretty cheap compared to National's yuppie highways through the Hibiscus Coast and Labour's dreamtime undersea road tunnels and will benefit a lot of people who can't afford even minimal dental work. Plus it won't take a couple of decades to complete.

    This is more like the Greens Party of old, policies for ordinary people – not the privileged or the gender conscious and the most compelling reason to date to vote Greens.

    • Tony Veitch 4.1
      7 August 2023 at 11:08 am

      This is more like the Greens Party of old, policies for ordinary people

      Go the Greens!

  5. SPC 5
    7 August 2023 at 10:08 am

    Some critics are right that this could be staged.

    But the lack of dentists is due to low demand because of cost.

    And once there is demand we can bring in foreign trained dentists while there is a local shortage.

    • weka 5.1
      7 August 2023 at 10:11 am

      Some critics are right that this could be staged.

      what does that mean?

      • SPC 5.1.1
        7 August 2023 at 10:32 am

        Some in the profession say that there are not enough dentists to enable delivery of the policy in the short to medium term.

        • weka 5.1.1.1
          7 August 2023 at 11:05 am

          so is the staged bit saying that Greens are making it up that their policy will work in the short/medium term?

          • Belladonna 5.1.1.1.1
            7 August 2023 at 11:07 am

            Staged, because the GP know there are not enough dentists in NZ to deliver on this promise.

            • weka 5.1.1.1.1.1
              7 August 2023 at 11:24 am

              From the policy document,

              Despite the clear need for more dentists, successive governments have capped the number of training places at just 60 per year. The Green Party will fund an additional 20 placements from 2024. We’ll review training pipelines and placement numbers in subsequent years to ensure we’re meeting demand for dentists. This will start to close workforce gaps and ensure the increased demand for public dental services can be met.

              …

              The Green Party will provide pathways for oral health therapists to treat adults through community providers. We will make sure licensing and workforce training reflects this and lift the cap on the domestic placements for oral health therapists.

              …

              In addition to providing more training and career opportunities for people currently in Aotearoa, the Green Party will also maintain recruitment of internationally qualified dentists and specialists. We will develop recruitment actions in the Health Workforce 2023/24 Plan to apply to oral health professionals.

              https://assets.nationbuilder.com/beachheroes/pages/18276/attachments/original/1691273205/Health_Full_Policy_Document.pdf?1691273205

              why won't that work?

              • Belladonna …
                7 August 2023 at 11:34 am

                It may work long term (though I don't think the increased number of places in dental school is anything like enough – just think of the current unmet need).

                But, it won't work quickly. Promising free dental care is undeliverable right now. It doesn't matter how much money you're prepared to throw at it – you literally cannot deliver.

                Where does the GP think these dental hygienists, and other oral health professionals, are magically going to appear from?

                We currently have a very significant shortage of dentists – right now – when people are having to pay full price. We also have a huge shortage of dental hygienists – having a major impact on the ability of the current dental service to schools to provide care to primary students. Promising free dental-care is setting up an expectation that can't be delivered on.

                Have the left learned nothing from the 100,00 affordable homes debacle?

                • weka …
                  7 August 2023 at 12:12 pm

                  Where does the GP think these dental hygienists, and other oral health professionals, are magically going to appear from?

                  Did you read the quotes?

                  The Green Party will provide pathways for oral health therapists to treat adults through community providers. We will make sure licensing and workforce training reflects this and lift the cap on the domestic placements for oral health therapists.

                  I'm assuming some of that means expanding what oral health therapists can do.

                  But this in particular,

                  In addition to providing more training and career opportunities for people currently in Aotearoa, the Green Party will also maintain recruitment of internationally qualified dentists and specialists. We will develop recruitment actions in the Health Workforce 2023/24 Plan to apply to oral health professionals.

                  If you think that won't work in the timeframes the Greens are using, please provide an explanation of why not, with reference to the timeframes in the policy document. Some figures would be useful too.

                  • Belladonna …
                    7 August 2023 at 1:14 pm

                    They are in short supply now…..
                    When people have to pay full price for the service (they're mostly employed in dental practices).
                    If the floodgate of demand opens up (because suddenly free) – how do you think the supply of these professionals is magically going to increase.

                    Dentists are already being recruited (heavily) from overseas (although Labour/Greens were unwilling to add them to the Green list of occupations).

                    Dental practices are already short of dentists – especially in rural and hard to staff areas.

                    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/dentists-few-and-far-between/Y4CIHCQWLGP4PXB3IWQWVMWNVQ/

                    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rotorua-daily-post/news/dentist-says-government-not-doing-enough-calls-for-dental-health-to-be-prioritised/ERFKBLP4A5BZDLGJIANNSZ4MXM/

                    There is no spare capacity to be utilized in the provision of this free service.

                    And, indeed, a conservative projection is that the demand is nearly double the current supply (i.e. around 40% of people can't afford dental treatment). I think that's an under-representation – many people forgo routine dental care, and only go to the dentist when there is something wrong. If cost were not a barrier, many more would go for annual checkups.

                    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/478695/dental-care-40-percent-new-zealanders-can-t-afford-it-report

                    If you can show me where the GP are proposing to double the number of dentists in 2024 – ready for the implementation of this fee-free scheme – then I'll agree that they've got their policy ducks in a row.

                    From the policy quotes that you've linked, they're talking about increasing training, and maintaining immigration – but not being honest, that they can't implement the fees free scheme for everyone *until* the workforce is in place. So not 2024 – more like 2034.

                    Over-promising…..

                    • weka …
                      7 August 2023 at 3:01 pm

                      Dentists are already being recruited (heavily) from overseas (although Labour/Greens were unwilling to add them to the Green list of occupations).

                      why?

                      Sorry if I missed it, but how many dentists are we short now? How many oral health therapists?

                    • SPC …
                      7 August 2023 at 3:37 pm

                      “Anyone who has tried to get a dentist appointment recently knows there’s a workforce shortage. More information released to ACT shows the number of dental therapists and dental hygienists employed by DHBs fell from 553 in 2019 to 496 in 2022 while dentists fell from 43 in 2019 to 35 in 2022.

                      “In 2022 ACT was leaked a ministerial briefing recommending that 30 professions, including dentists, orthodontists, dental specialists, dental hygienists, and dental and oral health therapists needed to be added to the immigration Green List. The Government ignored it.

                      https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2303/S00168/govt-needs-to-brush-up-on-dentistry-workforce-woes.htm

                  • Belladonna …
                    7 August 2023 at 3:57 pm

                    I can't answer the 'how many short' question – I don't think anyone knows. According the 2019 survey (below) there were 2469 dentists practising and 500 out of the workforce (for a range of reasons).

                    But, there are 70 positions advertised on this immigration site:

                    https://www.new-zealand-immigration.com/dentists-wanted-in-new-zealand

                    The last dental workforce survey I can find is 2019 (obviously Covid got in the way – maybe they're planning on for later this year)

                    Six territorial authorities (TAs) had no dentists and no dental specialists recorded. Based on 2019 data, these included: Kaipara, Westland, Hurunui, Mackenzie, Waimate and Chatham Islands territories. Table 1-28
                    A total of 61.3 (49.1 FTE) dentists and dental specialists per 100,000 NZ population over 15 years of age was reported. In 2017, 68.2 dentists and dental specialists per 100,000 NZ population over 15 years of age were reported (43.2 FTE) showing a decline in dentists and dental specialists per population ratio, and an increase in FTE reflecting increasing workloads.

                    https://dcnz.org.nz/resources-and-publications/publications/workforce-analysis/

                    So ratio of dentists per thousand population is getting worse. Not to mention the areas which don't have one at all….

                    Interestingly, looking at the data – we've been staffing around 50% of our dentist need out of overseas immigration for quite some time.

                    Doubling the dental school places (while it was a ballpark estimate) is looking more and more on target.

              • SPC …
                7 August 2023 at 12:12 pm

                why won't that work?

                It will not work quickly, so the issue is how the resources to deliver are allocated.

                The mobility factor is good – available resources to maintain a nationwide system. Then emergency need (hospital resources cannot cope) – so funding for spare private dentist work.

                Here it is extraction. Otherwise it's annual checks (age 65 for the oldies and those with CSC and with children) to clean things up and provide advice.

                • weka …
                  7 August 2023 at 12:20 pm

                  It will not work quickly, so the issue is how the resources to deliver are allocated.

                  Please explain what you mean by quickly, then why you think it won't work with reference to GP proposals and timeframes.

              • AB …
                7 August 2023 at 4:25 pm

                We could go to the Cubans and fund them to train and deliver 500 extra dentists over 10 years starting in x years time. And fund NZ students who want to be dentists and would make perfectly good dentists train at those Cuban institutions – currently such people are gate-kept out of training by what looks like a deliberately engineered shortage. Frankly, even the threat of it might be enough to loosen the sclerotic grip of the profession over its own remuneration.

    • Belladonna 5.2
      7 August 2023 at 11:12 am

      And once there is demand we can bring in foreign trained dentists while there is a local shortage.

      So how's that working for GPs then?

      There are two issues with this approach:

      • There is a worldwide shortage of dentists – NZ needs to compete on the international stage to attract medical specialists (including dentists) – and we're not doing so well at that, right now. They can earn a heck of a lot more elsewhere. And our 'lifestyle' bonus isn't holding up so well (floods, etc.)
      • We need to train our own medical professionals, rather than relying on poaching them from other countries.
      • Patricia Bremner 5.2.1
        7 August 2023 at 11:53 am

        Belladonna, would you be in favour if they upped the training to 80? Or is that you think there are hidden flaws? What might stop this from happening apart from floods and storms?

        • Belladonna 5.2.1.1
          7 August 2023 at 1:17 pm

          I just think that NZ is less attractive to immigration from medical professionals – we're being outbid by countries like Australia and Canada – and our lifestyle isn't counter-balancing that, right now.

          I'd like to see the intake into the dental school at Otago double – at the very least. And preferably coupled with a new dental school being set up somewhere in the North Island (I've suggested Waikato – but I'm not wedded to this – if someone has a better option).

          • weka 5.2.1.1.1
            7 August 2023 at 3:12 pm

            student loans are a big problem in terms of training people.

            • Belladonna 5.2.1.1.1.1
              7 August 2023 at 3:28 pm

              They don't have to be. If Government is serious about investing in the people doing the jobs that NZ needs.

              I don't have a problem with fully subsidised education for health allied professionals (not just dental, but a whole host of others) – tied to a bonding scheme – so you have to work in NZ for a reasonable period of time.

              It could be done as either an up-front bonding scheme. Or a straight student loan with a credit arrangement (e.g. 1/7 forgiven for every year you work in the health job you qualified for in NZ). In either case, if people really wanted to opt out (and go be an investment banker instead) – then they can just re-pay their student loan at the standard rate.

              When looking at some of the less qualified positions – then I think they should be looking at more of an apprenticeship scheme – which means you get paid to work and learn.

              • weka …
                7 August 2023 at 5:31 pm

                I'm a fan of bonding and apprenticeships. We've had user pays education long enough now to know that it creates problems. Including people graduating needing to chase high paying jobs which drives up dental treatment costs. We're so fucking stupid at times.

            • SPC 5.2.1.1.1.2
              7 August 2023 at 3:28 pm

              And this is why I am a fan of no repayments of any TL while working in the medical sector in Enzed.

              • weka …
                7 August 2023 at 3:57 pm

                the debt still affects people though eg if they want to get a mortgage.

                • SPC …
                  7 August 2023 at 4:00 pm

                  Sure, but not as a consideration as to mortgage affordability.

                • Belladonna …
                  7 August 2023 at 4:03 pm

                  Being required to work in the industry for 7 years (just my ballpark figure – don't take it as gospel) – for complete student loan forgiveness – isn't going to greatly impact on the ability of most people to qualify for a mortgage. The vast majority would be working for at least that to build up a deposit.

      • SPC 5.2.2
        7 August 2023 at 12:04 pm

        That applies to every area where we have local skills shortages, but we recruit now where and when we can.

  6. Roy Cartland 6
    7 August 2023 at 11:25 am

    It's that really all it costs? A pathetic billion dollars?

    Something people want vs something no one asked for (a new tunnel) at a 20B cost is outrageously obvious.

    WTF labour, seriously.

    • Patricia Bremner 6.1
      7 August 2023 at 12:03 pm

      That is infrastructure for Auckland as a package and resilient and able to cater for non carbon vehicles of the future. It is for one third of our population. Nearly 2 million.

      I am awaiting further Policies, and I don't think they will be a few cents off vegetables. The mandate to include partner Policies will be in the vote imo.

      The Green's Dental looks better than Act's destructive "Stop all work" sack half the MBIE employees. The next poll may reflect some of that.

  7. Corey 7
    7 August 2023 at 12:18 pm

    Hell yes!!!

    This, the under 130 K tax cut and the housing policy are the exact policies you'd expect from a centre left Labour govt.

    Universalist, social democratic policies that would have made people take a second look at labour had labour announced them and used their resources and party and media machine to get the word out.

    I hope the greens are able to get the word out as much as possible because every kiwi I've ever met, right across the political spectrum wants universal dental.

    I still think Chloe as temporary sole leader on these policies would get the party to 15% and inject massive energy into the campaign like Ardern in 2017 but regardless…

    Brilliant to see the Greens filling the social democratic void in NZ that has been Left by Labour who seem to be having a major identity crisis about wtf they even are "let's offer nothing that'll excite the voters"

    • weka 7.1
      7 August 2023 at 12:26 pm

      It's also interesting strategy that the Greens are rolling out social security policy before climate. I'm looking forward to seeing what they do with specific climate/environmental policies, but they're getting this the right way around. Reassure people that we can take care of humans needs along with the big changes coming with the climate/eco crisis.

  8. tc 8
    7 August 2023 at 1:36 pm

    Bravo greens. The only party offering true social reform IMO, shaws launch speech nailed it with the view that there is no better time than now for reform.

    Calling out the lack of policy and use of fear by nact was something a half decent media should be doing so go greens !

  9. MickeyBoyle 9
    7 August 2023 at 2:02 pm

    Again the Greens are using wealth taxes to pay for another one of their policies.

    Please tell me how they achieve this, given the following statement from PM Hipkins.

    "I'm confirming today that under a government I lead there will be no wealth or capital gains tax after the election. End of story," Hipkins said in a statement.

    Either the Greens are planning to govern alone or Hipkins is going to have to step down. You cannot negotiate on Hipkins position, it is categorical.

    • weka 9.1
      7 August 2023 at 2:06 pm

      please link to the quote. You've been here long enough to know this is a requirement.

    • arkie 9.2
      7 August 2023 at 2:10 pm

      Or this could be framed another way: is Hipkins prepared to allow a NACT government if Labour doesn't have an outright majority and needs the Greens and TPM? Is he using the threat of a NACT government to discipline the electorate into maintaining low expectations?

      As the Greens have said; it is up to the electorate what form the next government will take. The Greens are putting out popular policy, Labour seem deadset on ruling any of it out.

      Ardern isn’t a pragmatist. She is a believer and is committed to doing what she believes is right, even at considerable political risk

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/300348036/jacinda-ardern-is-a-truly-transformational-leader

      Transformational government? Yeah right.

    • weka 9.3
      7 August 2023 at 3:21 pm

      I've asked you before. How does Labour form government without the Greens? They can't. The Greens have said that they cannot be taken for granted and that the cross benches are an option this year. So Labour will have to negotiate policy with the Greens if they want to be government again.

      • MickeyBoyle 9.3.1
        7 August 2023 at 5:04 pm

        I completely understand that. Labour and the Greens do need each other and will have to negotiate.

        My point is, given Hipkins has categorically ruled out implementing wealth and capital gains taxes whilst he is PM. How can he possibly change that position after we have all voted?

        It's not credible to categorically rule something out pre election and then change that position after voters have had their say.

        The only way I can see this working is if Hipkins steps down as PM. Any other scenario is frankly untenable for the Prime Minister.

        Hipkins should've said that wealth and capital gains taxes will not be Labour party policy whilst he is PM. That then gives him flexibility moving forward if another party wants to take that route.

        • weka 9.3.1.1
          7 August 2023 at 5:33 pm

          He certainly backed himself into a corner. I have no problem if Labour want to replace him after the election.

          • Phillip ure 9.3.1.1.1
            7 August 2023 at 8:08 pm

            If he is standing in the way of a lab/grn/tmp coalition govt…

            He can go…

            No one is irreplaceable…

  10. Shanreagh 10
    7 August 2023 at 4:36 pm

    So Labour will have to negotiate policy with the Greens if they want to be government again.
    @weka 7 August 2023 at 3:21 pm

    The converse also applies. The Greens will have to negotiate policy with Labour as well.

    What worries me is that with electors being beguiled by various election policies they may forget that unless Labour gets a decent showing all the innovative creative policies in the world are not going to get some of the policies of the minor parties brought into practice particularly as the minor parties may have limited themselves now to only one partner. The Greens have ruled out working with Nats etc. Which seems a bit premature to be honest in my view. But nothing to be done now as we cannot force the genie back into the bottle.

    PS All the formatting that is usual on the posting function has gone. I cannot do a reply to a poster. I have restarted. I have also got a strange statement about copying & pasting a code. I ignored the code and it said i was pasting spam. I put it in and my post appeared. Is this some thing new? My virus checker reports no problems.

    • weka 10.1
      7 August 2023 at 5:41 pm

      The Greens have ruled out working with Nats etc. Which seems a bit premature to be honest in my view.

      This is such a fundamental issue within green pol and NZ pol, if you don't understand why then I am doubtful you will be able to understand GP policy, election strategy and post-election negotiations.

      Essentially, to support National becoming government, the Greens would have to stop being a left wing party and a green party. The party would also collapse as its membership base deserts it. The GP is its members, so this would mean the end of the Greens.

      What worries me is that with electors being beguiled by various election policies they may forget that unless Labour gets a decent showing all the innovative creative policies in the world are not going to get some of the policies of the minor parties brought into practice particularly as the minor parties may have limited themselves now to only one partner.

      Everyone knows its MMP. Labour don't actually need a decent showing in order for them to form government. What needs to happen is L/G/TPM need more votes/seats than N/ACT/NZF.

      That could theoretically be L 26%, GP 20%, TPM 5%. Even with more realistic numbers, this is still true.

      The issue here isn't how many votes Labour gets, it's where those votes are coming from, or where they are going if people aren't voting Labour. If people vote Green or TPM instead, it's still a vote for a centre left government. The problem is if too many people shift from Labour to NZF or Nat.

      • Dennis Frank 10.1.1
        8 August 2023 at 8:46 am

        Essentially, to support National becoming government, the Greens would have to stop being a left wing party and a green party. The party would also collapse as its membership base deserts it. The GP is its members, so this would mean the end of the Greens.

        Partly true. They would have to stop being partisan (left-wing) and return to the political position of authentic representation of the Green movement – the basis upon which the GP was originally formed.

        There are two feasible bases for supporting a Nat govt, neither of which are currently realitistic. The first is that the Nats would have to cease being braindead and use their BlueGreen brand as the basis for developing collaboration for the common good. The second is old-fashioned deal-making (in which parties with nothing much in common negotiate deals on policies for mutual benefit).

        Your delusion about the membership base leaving the party is most peculiar. When I rejoined the GP, I attended the party conference where Russel Norman conducted a straw poll of members who self-identified as left-wingers and those who still believed the Greens are `neither right nor left but in front' as per the 1980s formula. The latter were counted as about 2/3 of the whole – which I saw with my own eyes and have reported onsite here around half a dozen times since.

        The left-wingers within the GP have proven their ineffectual political skills several times since, such as running a candidate who got little more than the margin of error and attempting to de-select James as co-leader without securing an alternative to run instead of him. Both hopeless & pathetic, the so-called Green Left…

        • weka 10.1.1.1
          8 August 2023 at 2:21 pm

          In the 80s we didn't have decades of neoliberalism, nor the kinds of wealth disparity we have now. We also didn't have MMP.

          Besides, if we're doing anecdata, I was raised by a Values Party voter. Here's the VP manifesto for those that want to understand the genesis of the NZ Greens

          https://web.archive.org/web/20181202112714/https://www.globalgreens.org/green-party-platforms-programs-and-manifestos/nz_values_1975

          Being orthogonal to the traditional left/right spectrum =/= being able to support the formation of a right wing government. The main reason the GP will never support National is because National's ethos and thus policies are antithetical to green politics.

          People being neither left nor right but out in front still have functioning brains when it comes to political positioning and policy. Exactly what deals could the Greens do with National that would be worth the policy losses in other areas? They get a climate ministry but are hampered on real climate action and meanwhile Nact dismantle environmental and social security protections.

          Supporting National into government would in fact remove the Greens orthogonal position and enmesh them in L/R politics.

          • Dennis Frank 10.1.1.1.1
            8 August 2023 at 4:12 pm

            The main reason the GP will never support National is because National's ethos and thus policies are antithetical to green politics.

            Never is quite a long time in politics! However it's true that I used your reasoning 30 years ago to persuade them to head left in parliament. Pre-MMP there was only the old binary choice there, so it seemed sensible then.

            It's also true that National haven't learnt anything new since. Your hostility to them is therefore pragmatic enough to seem reasonable. I actually feel the same but don't discount the principle of leverage. Centrists deserve a more radical progressive option than Nat/Lab mediocrity ad nauseum: I'm okay with the Greens taking a hard left position on a policy basis (wealth tax & free dentistry.

            I'd just prefer such levers to operate in both directions rather than just to the left – optionality is the concept. If the Greens trend upward in the polls toward the election their policy stance will be vindicated & if the election returns them at a higher leverage position those levers will be potentially effective in govt.

          • Shanreagh 10.1.1.1.2
            8 August 2023 at 6:42 pm

            Supporting National into government would in fact remove the Greens orthogonal position and enmesh them in L/R politics.

            The Greens are already enmeshed in L/R politics.

            I think DF has pointed out the view that many of us who have been around for a while had thought The Greens started out from. I know through working in the environmental sector that many of the NGO groups working there were able to work and push through gains with whatever Govt was in power. Some of these groups NFAC/Maruia, RFBPS etc were some of the rump ideas of original Green thinking eg Guy Salmon. .

            Thus I am always a bit surprised that The Greens have latched themselves so firmly to the Left.

            I am not sure about the impact of MMP or the neo-lib types govt we have had, especially the neo-lib angle.

            My point is though that MMP actually means it is or should be easier for a green type party to work across govts, doing deals with whoever is willing to talk to them. I think the environment is actually suffering if this ability is limited to talking to just those on the left.

            In the last few years The Greens has repositioned itself from an environmentally focussed party to a bog standard political party concerned about taxes, roads etc. That is fine but in doing so they have taken with them the ability to rove.

            Who is actually going to outgreen The Greens? It should not be too difficult I would have thought for a party to come in and do this. If one of the main parties were to do this it would seem to indicate that while there is room for many players in things like potholes, houses etc we desparately need a clear focus on the environment from somewhere.

            Centrists deserve a more radical progressive option than Nat/Lab mediocrity ad nauseum: ……

            I'd just prefer such levers to operate in both directions rather than just to the left – optionality is the concept. If the Greens trend upward in the polls toward the election their policy stance will be vindicated & if the election returns them at a higher leverage position those levers will be potentially effective in govt.

            I don't think is is just the trending upwards that is important though DF. If they have ruled out negotiating with anyone other than Labour and Labour does not make the cut in an accumulation of left-ish, left centrist parties then the Greens have lost any ability to do deals, particularly on the environment. An upward trend in those circumstances would seem to be a bit of a pyrrhic victory.

            This is a view from working with green type people, even after the neo-lib stuff. In fact I was working with green type environmental people up until I took early retirement 15 odd years ago ie in the 2000s.

            • Anne 10.1.1.1.2.1
              8 August 2023 at 7:16 pm

              I am always a bit surprised that The Greens have latched themselves so firmly to the Left.

              No mystery whatsoever.

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Party_of_Aotearoa_New_Zealand

              The Green Party traces its origins to the Values Party, founded in 1972 as the world's first national-level environmentalist party. The current Green Party was formed in 1990. From 1991 to 1997 the party participated in the Alliance, a grouping of five left-wing parties. It gained representation in parliament at the 1996 election.

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Values_Party#:~:text=The%20Values%20Party%20was%20a,at%20Victoria%20University%20of%20Wellington.

              I was attracted to politics by chance in 1972 and tossed up whether to join the new Values Party or Labour. Labour won due to its charismatic leader, Norman Kirk. The Values Party was more than just an environmentalist party. It also advocated social change which favoured left wing ideals as it still does today.

              • Shanreagh …
                9 August 2023 at 8:12 am

                Yes I do note that Anne. The point I was trying to make was that the more The Greens position themselves as a standard political party the further away we get from a force for the environment…..

                We in NZ miss and need a focussed party being a force for the environment, in its widest sense.

                • Anne …
                  9 August 2023 at 10:00 am

                  "We in NZ miss and need a focussed party being a force for the environment, in its widest sense."

                  Concur.

                  • arkie …
                    9 August 2023 at 10:17 am

                    Environmentalism without class struggle is gardening – Chico Mendes

                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chico_Mendes

                    • Shanreagh …
                      9 August 2023 at 10:28 am

                      Of course but there is no rule that says the environment and people cannot be dealt with separately. My point is that the people side is being dealt with by all the other parties, in their own ways from Act through to TPM.

                      No-one seems to be dealing with the world, the country we live in……if we don't get that right then all our people foci? focuses is for naught.

                    • arkie …
                      9 August 2023 at 10:35 am

                      There is no rule, but as outlined by Chico Mendes to separate the environment from people renders the environmentalism hollow and ineffective. The costs of climate inaction are already more heavily felt by those side-lined by our current economic system and without fundamental change will continue to be.

                      People cannot actually be separated from the environment, it is where we all live.

                • weka …
                  9 August 2023 at 10:53 am

                  This is a fundamental misunderstanding about green politics. You are arguing for an environmental party withing its narrowest sense.

                  The reason the GP have policy on roading, is because roading is an environmental issue. Roading impacts on the nature where it is built in multiple ways, it creates pollution in multiple ways, and it’s intrinsically linked to climate change.

                  One of the orgs you mentioned as holding the rump ideas of original Green thinking, Forest and Bird, are part of an NGO group going hard on climate. Because climate collapse will destroy native species and ecosystems.

                  https://forestandbird.org.nz/climateshift/

                  Climate Shift understands the links between social justice and the environment. If you don’t address poverty, poor people are more adversely affected by climate change, but even if one doesn’t care about that, we need the working and underclass on board with transition, mitigation and adaptation, because they are large in number. We need them to shift to PT, walking and biking for instance, and if we want that to happen we have to make that accessible.

                  You also seem to be unaware of what the Greens do on the things you would consider environmental. Or maybe it’s that you don’t approve of those things when the party is also working more broadly? But even a cursory look at their press releases shows consistent and meaningful work on those things.

                  https://www.greens.org.nz/media

                • weka …
                  9 August 2023 at 10:57 am

                  btw, Guy Salmon is right wing.

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Green_Party_(New_Zealand)

                  Perhaps you are wanting a conservation party? But even there, it was National that ripped funding out of DOC, so it’s hard to see how that works.

  11. bwaghorn 11
    7 August 2023 at 7:47 pm

    Love it, it might take time it ,might need a different funding source, ut shouldn't involve cosmetic stuff unless needed for employment.

    This is much more preferable than handing out money

  12. Mark 12
    7 August 2023 at 9:13 pm

    I think you will find the New Zealand dental council is very protective of NZ trained Dentists and make it almost impossible for overseas train Dentist to gain employment.

    They can't just prove their degree is legitimate and do a exam both theory and practical and start work.

    They must pass exams in Australia taking at least 18 months and then a small number are able to pass via a grading sysem that only allows the top 15% at most to pass and then the successful few are swallowed up by the Australian Dental Council.

  13. Darien Fenton 13
    9 August 2023 at 5:57 am

    Is The Standard now a GP election advertisement?

    • Shanreagh 13.1
      9 August 2023 at 8:07 am

      It seems so.

      Or perhaps they/we have not the people doing post/threads on the stuff that Labour is coming out with.

      • weka 13.1.1
        9 August 2023 at 8:38 am

        Darien has an author login and can put up posts about Labour Party policy.

        There was a Notices and Features post with the Labour Party list last week.

        Please read this explanation

        https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-07-08-2023/#comment-1963185

        • Shanreagh 13.1.1.1
          9 August 2023 at 9:22 am

          My point was not about the placement but about the plethora of Greens policies and I posited that this may be because we don't have the people/posts about Labour matters.

          Hopefully that will be rectified once more Labour policy starts coming out.

          It is a bit unbalanced at the moment but I am sure that this is timing rather than takeover (to coin a phrase)

        • Darien Fenton 13.1.1.2
          10 August 2023 at 3:16 am

          Yes I can put up posts, but not so inclined because the Standard is not my go to – used to be. I prefer blogs – there are some beauties with great writing. And I am a bit busy still working for low paid workers to get involved in “my party is better than your party”. Twitter is bad enough.

          • weka 13.1.1.2.1
            10 August 2023 at 10:03 am

            Always good to get blog recommendations, if you feel like sharing your favourites Darien.

    • weka 13.2
      9 August 2023 at 8:36 am

      Is it an advertisement when it’s a Labour policy release?

      please read this explanation

      https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-07-08-2023/#comment-1963185

  14. Molly 14
    10 August 2023 at 12:01 pm

    And the full policy document reveals the depressingly familiar racist lens:

    https://assets.nationbuilder.com/beachheroes/pages/18276/attachments/original/1691273205/Health_Full_Policy_Document.pdf?1691273205

    "The Green Party’s plan for free dental will also prioritise kaupapa Māori approaches. The Green Party will properly resource kaupapa Māori oral health services and enable providers to take a whānau ora approach to achieve the best outcomes for Māori. Māori and Pasifika are much less likely to access dental treatment than others, with more than half of all Māori and Pasifika going without having their dental care needs met. Kaupapa Māori services will enable culturally safe and responsive care, so Māori and Pasifika can take care of their oral health needs. Māori health needs have been neglected by successive governments. The recent Waitangi Tribunal Health Services and Outcomes Inquiry identified consistent failures of the Crown in its commitment to achieving equity of health outcomes for Māori. Oral health is no different. The time is now to ensure that Te Aka Whai Ora has the resourcing it needs to support Māori dental providers. There are many examples where kaupapa Māori health and oral health providers have been successful in their communities. However, these services are not supported to reach everybody they need to.

    The Green Party will:

    1. Resource Te Aka Whai Ora, the Māori Health Authority, to support existing Māori oral health providers.

    2. Provide additional funding to support iwi, hāpu, kaupapa Māori and Pasifika health providers, to develop their services and offer community dental care.

    3. Ensure continuity of care and flexible, whānau-based treatment through strong links between Māori providers and other general and oral health service providers, including child and adolescent providers."

    Kaupapa Māori Dental Services: $400 million (or $600 Costings columns on Page 16 ambiguous)

    Given the recent performance report on Te Aka Whai Ora, this additional funding seems wasteful:

    https://www.health.govt.nz/system/files/documents/pages/230505i-hmac-report-final.pdf

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