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How To Get There 1/12/19

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, December 1st, 2019 - 57 comments
Categories: Deep stuff - Tags:

 

This post is a place for positive discussion of the future.

An Open Mike for ideas, solutions and the discussion of the possible.

The Big Picture, rather than a snapshot of the day’s goings on. Topics rather than topical.

We’d like to think it’s success will be measured in the quality of comments rather than the quantity.

So have at it!

Let us know what you think …

57 comments on “How To Get There 1/12/19”

  1. Robert Guyton 1

    Reluctant About Taking Climate Change Action writes:

    "So, if Greta and her followers were given the power to make the changes they are calling for, they wouldn't  know what to do!"

     

    • Jenny How to get there 1.1

       

      Hi Robert. Lots of people who would consider themselves supporters of Greta Thunberg know exactly what to do.

      The Green New Deal is one idea

       

  2. Robert Guyton 2

    At her most recent opportunity to berate leaders about their failure to act on global heating, Greta declined to make a personal plea, instead she simply offered the latest scientific report and urged them all to read it.

    • Jenny How to get there 2.1

      Greta Thunberg is trying create the political will for them to start taking action.

      There are so many off the shelf action plans for tackling climate change that Greta does not need to spell it out to them.

       

    • Jenny How to get there 3.1

      Greta Thunberg is a woman of her time.
      Because of her youth, (barring assassination), Greta Thunberg will be around for a long time.

       

  3. Sacha 4

    This is the sort of innovative thinking we need – from Jeanette Fitzsimons: https://thespinoff.co.nz/business/29-11-2019/a-modest-proposal-for-the-future-of-tiwai-point/

    While you can store electricity short-term in batteries, it is difficult to store it from one season to the next.

    However it could be embodied in aluminium. The metal ingots will not rot or rust or be eaten by pests, are convenient and not too bulky to store. Contracts can be met by planning to release the ingots during a shutdown to provide continuity to markets.

    A “curtailed” – ie scaled down – smelter could be run as part of the electricity system’s dry year storage: making aluminium, and storing some of it, when power is cheap and available, with planned shutdowns when it is not.

    • Stuart Munro. 4.1

      Having got into the aluminium production stuff when I was teaching workers for a smelter, I'm afraid that it wouldn't work in the form Jeanette suggests. The aluminium refining process relies, for peak efficiency, on anodes calcined in reduction for upwards of a month.

      A one Al for one CO2 ratio is the perfect model, but 

      In the aluminum industry specific energy consumption ranges between 13 ÷ 15 kWh/kg Al. The theoretical amount of energy needed to produce aluminum at 100% current efficiency is equal to 6.34 kWh/kg. 

      from here.

      But the figures in that calculation exclude the cost of anode production – a further 0.12 kgs of CO2 and 0.6 KwH of energy in ideal conditions. Full details here: 

      That's not to say that some form of chemical storage might not be feasible, but aluminium is not the go to metal for them as yet. There is a form of superconconducting magnetic storage which offers some possibilities, but it is yet to be developed on a significant scale.

      The stories about exceptional purity of Tiwai aluminium are generally overstated also. All smelters use electricity to refine, ours is no cleaner than anyone else's. The purity of the finished product is a function of the purity of the anodes, the source of most extraneous matter.

      • pat 4.1.1

        Think there may be a misunderstanding there….I dont think she was advocating aluminium batteries rather excess production to cover shutdown periods, but I suspect given the nature of shutdowns in the process increased shutdowns would render the plant (or product) uneconomic…whatever the near term result one of the major issues is the complete lack of forward planning by all parties for the time when the plant ceases to be an operational concern, whenever that may be

        • greywarshark 4.1.1.1

          Isn't aluminium in itself a very useful product, with strength yet light (good for ladders for sure).   We don't do much local manufacturing of the permanent items we use in NZ, can't we keep making this useful product as a balance to the reliance on food through our agriculture and horticulture enterprises?     We could negotiate to buy a certain amount at near cost price to match the demand in the country so it can be used by government cheaply, and sold for a profit to private enterprise.    We would keep trying to get as much for the electricity as we can, but reap some benefit from gaining the raw product for our use at tough negotiated prices using government clued-up hard bargainers.  

          Isn't the thought of shutting it down similar in its narrow reasoning,  to that of ripping up tram lines and replacing a useful system with sunk costs, with something that has unforeseen consequences that turn out to be not advantageous.

          The lack of major enterprise in manufacturing in the south of the South Island could lead to unemployment, lack of circulation of money for the local economy, and a general slide in the civil life in the south, under pressure for example, in the poor conditions for health treatment there.   

          • pat 4.1.1.1.1

            we could potentially do many things, whether they are economically viable or necessary would have to be decided on a case by case basis but the point is there has been no planning for the point when the plant ceases activity as it will surely do at some point, and id suggest its almost a given that when it does there still wont be and not only that we will be left with the clean up required as well.

            Consider if we are to transform our infrastructure to be largely electricity based (as all models indicate will be necessary) then given lead times we have to start yesterday and planning for potential alternative employment and use of that energy should be on the table now…..sadly the organisation with the overview and expertise required no longer exists

             

            • greywarshark 4.1.1.1.1.1

              Edit
              Keep going Pat we need the strength of your good thinking.   I notice that structures that should be available to guide our government on future moves, to be made effectively and efficiently have been abandoned.  

              For instance:  The New Zealand Planning Council, 1977–1991 https://teara.govt.nz/en/photograph/25869/the-new-zealand-planning-council  (photo) 

              And the thinking of Dr WB Sutch (1907-1975): …So he sought import substitution, the further processing of agricultural production for export, and the exporting of non-pastoral agricultural exports, manufacturing and services (such as tourism). As such he foresaw, championed and laid the foundations of the great export diversifications of the 1970s.[citation needed]

              Sutch's promotion of industrialisation was anathema to much of the farming community, though many in the business community supported him.   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Sutch

              A book named Unbridled Power was written in 1979, I think mainly about our lack of a Constitution.*  But the name aptly describes our situation in 2019;  and that is government apparently having all the rights to decision-making, but not accepting responsibility.

              I suggest in that absence, before the powerful manage to wrest us of any initiative, we put our century-full of education to work, and do our own thinking.   There are still only five million of us, not the size of a large city overseas, but we have all the brains we need to do something worthwhile to help NZ, we just have to follow Rutherford who branched out from a room the size of a large cupboard to make some extraordinary changes in thinking;  "We haven't got the money, so we'll have to think".

              *Unbridled Power? An Interpretation of New Zealand's Constitution and Government
              G. Palmer, Unbridled Power? An Interpretation of New Zealand's Constitution and Government, Oxford University Press, Wellington, 1979

              Victoria University of Wellington Legal Research Paper Series Palmer Paper No. 2 192 Pages Posted: 24 Aug 2013 Last revised: 24 Feb 2015

              Sir Geoffrey Palmer QC
              Victoria University of Wellington – Faculty of Law Date Written: 1979

              • pat

                There is little more to say GWS…even if the Gov were committed to the task ,which is by no means certain, the facility is not there to carry it out and that cannot be remedied in a few years, think more of decades….it is not a situation that provides for optimism.

  4. Jenny How to get there 5

    With human beings, perception is everything.

    When we talk together about 'how to get there' I have often argued that leadership is one of the key components in getting there.

    In human affairs, whether it is building a house, or building a road, or crossing an ocean, these great tasks cannot be achieved by one person, (or at least achieved well). Most human tasks worth doing are achieved through teamwork. Our ability to work together in a team to achieve a common goal is our great strength as a species.

    It is an inescapable truth that teamwork requires leadership.Without leadership nothing happens.
     
    Every ship has a captain, every movement has a leader.

    In time of crisis, when those elected by us to official leadership positions, dither and fumble and hesitate, then that very necessary leadership will sometimes spring from the most surprising and unlikely places. School student Greta Thunberg for example.

    Another example:

    Coldplay no-tour plan highlights growing climate awareness
     

    Joe Jackson Agence-France Presse 23 November 2019

    "It is fantastic to see world famous artists stepping up to protect the planet," said the head of climate change at WWF, Gareth Redmond-King.

    "We all have a responsibility to lead by example in the face of this climate and nature crisis — inaction is not an option if we are to preserve our planet for future generations."

    Coldplay frontman Chris Martin told the BBC they would not tour until they had figured out how concerts could be more "sustainable".

    He listed the amount of flying required and the use of items such as plastic water bottles as the band's primary concerns over touring.

    https://au.news.yahoo.com/coldplay-no-tour-plan-highlights-growing-climate-awareness-170154727–spt.html

    • Sacha 5.1

      Leadership is a function, not a person. Every movement has leaders.

      • Jenny How to get there 5.1.1

        Sacha

        1 December 2019 at 9:37 am

        Leadership is a function, not a person….

        Care to expand on that thought for us Sacha?

        • Sacha 5.1.1.1

          People who are interested can find their own way to that. Not a novel concept in community movement building.

      • Robert Guyton 5.1.2

        I'm interested in the process of leadership forming in response to an individual's focused and full efforts to "live correctly" whereby others follow suit, not because they are called to do so by that individual, but because their actions and behaviour is so compelling that others cannot resist doing the same.

        • Incognito 5.1.2.1

          Interesting. What you describe is the slow process akin some kind of ‘social osmosis’ or cultural assimilation. To have any impact on a larger scale I think you’ll need work through a network of some kind and build a critical mass that could transform into ‘peer pressure’. People tend to mimic others whom they look up to. These could be trendsetters but that by itself is not sufficient. They have to embody similar values and tastes and have a ‘following’ of like-minded people who trust them. But none of this answers the quintessential chick & egg question: how do you become an ‘influencer’? How do you inspire people to make changes in and to their lives? Does the brain have one or a few ‘leader neurons’? Does the brain ‘lead’ the body? In an ecosystem, who or what is or are the leaders? Again, I don’t have (the) answers but I’m slowly progressing to a rejection of the ‘leadership model’ in favour of a highly connected system of individuals or individual units (and the whole environment for that matter) who form a collective that functions (operates) cooperatively. The one big obstacle (elephant in the room) is (called) Ego. I’ll leave you with this ‘stream of consciousness’ 😉

          • Robert Guyton 5.1.2.1.1

            On eggs; there comes a point in the development of a fertilised egg, where, despite the seeming chaos and formlessness of yolk and albumen, something forms; a thread, a nuclei, a series of nubs that branch and grow until…chicken! Could it be that at this point in Universal Time, the soup is about to gel, the liminal cells align, the chicken's heart cells coagulate? If across the planet, nubs are forming, there's no need to formulate a strategy, draw up a plan; an unstoppable force is already calling-in it's constituents and joining part A to part B. 

            • Incognito 5.1.2.1.1.1

              Of course!

              The soup has been simmering away since the beginning of UT. At this infinitesimally short moment in time and in this most minute corner of the Universe, a little bubble is rising to the surface to go blub. Not quite on the scale of witnessing the birth (or death) of a star but for us humans a huge once-in-a-lifetime experience nevertheless. Are we active players or passive observers, or neither, or both? Who’s pulling your strings? Is it you or somebody else? Who is pulling somebody else’s strings? See where I’m going with this? Which neuron triggers which neuron? Which cell influences which cell? All these cells together form an organism. A collection of different organisms living together forms an ecosystem. But for some reason a whole bunch of humans living together are called a society (or an economy?) and not an ecosystem!? We need to think more in terms of systems biology and human ecology IMHO. But here’s the catch: it is too complex for single individuals to comprehend the overall and complete picture. What’s more, it’s not even up to humans alone …

          • Jenny How to get there 5.1.2.1.2

            Incognito

            1 December 2019 at 8:37 pm

            Interesting. What you describe is the slow process akin some kind of ‘social osmosis’ or cultural assimilation……

            …….I’m slowly progressing to a rejection of the ‘leadership model’ in favour of a highly connected system of individuals or individual units (and the whole environment for that matter) who form a collective that functions (operates) cooperatively.

            You have to got to wonder why we have leaders then?

            Would you system of 'osmosis' even work. after all we are not bacteria or fungi we are very complex organisms that have complex individual needs that can only be satisfied by working collectively with others.

            Individual human beings have learnt to specialise, when we put all our specialties together we create a functioning society.

            Even collectives have leaders.

            We have scientists, we have firemen and teachers, we have police and builders, we have wharfies and electricians.

            Leadership is a specialisation.

            Even this website has leaders who make decisions for the whole platform.

            Like all good leaders their ideas are shaped by those who participate. But they are still leaders who exercise authority and make decisions for the whole.

            How else could it work?

            Personally I don't hold out much hope for the 'osmosis' model. And even if it did work the time scale is too long to match the urgency of the climate crisis.

            Antonio Guteriez has just said that we have 12 months to begin taking some serious decisive action.

        • greywarshark 5.1.2.2

          Robert G at 9.58am

          Leadership by example.   To speed up the process, model villages set up.   Was looking at this approach when thinking of cohousing.   There are groups already formed and operating.   

          Many people interested in housing though are just looking at getting into the capitalist system and that is not the approach that is practicable for this age.   But if tiny villages could match up with others and act as separated parts of a whole of people living sustainably and simply, and they kept in constant communication, we could form a practical community that could be looked up to, and copied, and which could provide a book of guidelines and rules to be adopted.    Note there would be rules:  some dreamers think that every disagreement should precipitate a meeting to decide behaviour case by case!    Ugh.

          • Jenny How to get there 5.1.2.2.1

            greywarshark

            1 December 2019 at 9:57 pm

            Robert G at 9.58am

            Leadership by example.   To speed up the process, model villages set up.   Was looking at this approach when thinking of cohousing.   There are groups already formed and operating….

            Hi Grey, it would be really cool if you could provide links to the groups already formed and operating, so those interested could check them out.

            Until you can do that, I am left with contemplating the brave but ultimately futile experiment in the sort of alternative community building you are suggesting.

            https://teara.govt.nz/en/communes-and-communities/page-2.
             

            My reservations about setting up this sort of parallel society, ie 'model villages' communes, Ohu etc. (what ever you want to call them contained in the link above), is that even if they ever were successful, (which the link above suggests is a dubious proposition), it still leaves greater society to chug along unchanged. Meanwhile robbing greater society of those visionaries needed to affect change.

            Note here; Prominent New Zealanders Rod Donald and Tim Shadbolt who tried this in the '70s eventually realised their talents were better used trying to affect change in greater society.

             

            Page 2. Communes: 1960s and 1970s

            All images & media in this storyBack to nature at Wilderland

            Back to nature at Wilderland (1st of 2)

            Dinner at Jerusalem

            Dinner at Jerusalem

            Hay barn, Sunburst ohu

            Hay barn, Sunburst ohu

            Ahu Ahu ohu, around 2010

            Ahu Ahu ohu, around 2010

            Meal time, Chippenham

            Meal time, Chippenham

            In New Zealand, as in other western countries, the late 1960s and 1970s saw an explosion of counter-cultural activity. Many idealistic young people, dissatisfied with suburban nuclear-family life, headed for the countryside, while others set up urban communities.

  5. Jenny How to get there 6

    If we could only get our democratically elected leaders, particularly our Green MPs, to demonstrate the same level of leadership and and like Coldplay and Greta Thunberg refuse to fly, (domestically at least).

    It would send a very powerful message to the whole country.

    • Robert Guyton 6.1

      Green MPs will have heard and considered that proposal, JennyHTGT. The choice they have individually made will not have been made lightly, I propose, knowing many of them as I do. Continuing to call on them to do as you demand will not be useful I suggest. It was a good call, but hasn't produced the result you were hoping-for, for practical reasons, I guess. I do think, however, that the same request of "second-tier" greens will result in fewer flights, as it's more practical and doable for people such as me to eschew air travel. As I have done. What do you reckon?

      • greywarshark 6.1.1

        Edit
        I have hard-working relations now retired, who have through their lives filled the catchphrase of the proper NZr and done good jobs, worked hard, and prospered.    Now you come along JennyHowto and say they shouldn't have the right to travel around the world to visit family on distant shores, or to see places they have read about or seen on David Attenborough docs.    It has not entered their consciousness that this is wrong;  they have tried to do right all their lives and are just following their 20th century program.

        You are talking 21st century JennyHowto.    And yet you are using 20th century thinking yourself.    That is why you aren't making headway.  The Greens have been aligned with environmental matters but have embraced ideals mostly seen from the left.   They are trying to embrace an holistic policy which includes care about people as well as animals, plants and soil and stone and fungi.    If you can try to assist their aims and help support and keep them on track then you would be helping power the best vehicle to advance your desires JennyHowTo.  

        Please don't try and set the cart before the horse; don’t deny them the right to fly quickly rather than slower travel, walk, bicycle, horse, train, car or whatever, to where their sort of firefighting is needed to prevent some further foolishness or intransigent vandalism and waste by vacuous capitalism.

        • Jenny How to get there 6.1.1.1

        • Jenny How to get there 6.1.1.2

          greywarshark

          1 December 2019 at 11:34 am

          Edit
          I have hard-working relations now retired, who have through their lives filled the catchphrase of the proper NZr and done good jobs, worked hard, and prospered.    Now you come along JennyHowto and say they shouldn't have the right to travel around the world to visit family on distant shores, or to see places they have read about or seen on David Attenborough docs.    It has not entered their consciousness that this is wrong;  they have tried to do right all their lives and are just following their 20th century program…..

          Hi Grey,

          What I find remarkable about your attempted rebuttal of my call for our MPs to give up air travel, Grey, is that you seem to have accepted that if our political leaders did  give up air travel, then your friends would, no matter how deserving and entitled they are, ("to visit family on distant shores, or to see places they have read about or seen on David Attenborough docs.") would also feel compelled not to travel by air.

          Which is exactly my point.

          You also admit that with out this sort of lead it would not enter their"consciousness that this is wrong;"

          Which is an admission of the power of leadership to change people's perceptions and behaviour.

      • Jenny How to get there 6.1.2

        Robert Guyton

        1 December 2019 at 9:55 am

        Green MPs will have heard and considered that proposal, Jenny HTGT. The choice they have individually made will not have been made lightly….

        …..it's more practical and doable for people such as me to eschew air travel. As I have done. What do you reckon?

        What do I reckon?

        I reckon, I couldn't live with my conscience if I was asking people to do what I wouldn't be prepared to do myself.

        Do as I say, not as I do

        Is this really the sort arrogant elitist leadership we should have to put up with particularly from our Green Party MPs?

        Next Saturday I am to attend a meeting in Tauranga, the organisers of this meeting offered to pay for me to fly there at their expense.

        But just as you have Robert, I have eschewed air travel and had to turn their offer of free air travel down. Instead I will drive to this meeting at my own expense.

        In the great scheme of things my individual action means little.

        What one private individual. (or even MP) does or doesn't do as individual choice has little meaning. What is really needed is a collective society wide response.

        It is my contention here that a truly collective society wide response can only be mustered by leaders holding respected public positions, particularly those with a public profile and platform granted them with our democratic vote.

        P.S. You say that Robert that the Green MPs you know have considered this as a individuals. (being optimistic here I guess some will even have made the same decision [as individuals] that you and I have made).

        Again Robert their individual decisions will have little meaning, particularly if the rest of the Green Party Caucus continue business as usual.

        Coming from a union background that sort of individual decision is meaningless.

        A strike is meaningless if taken by one worker. A strike is only meaningful when it is made and carried out by a collective of workers.

        The Green Party MPs need to make this policy decision as a Caucus and then be bound by caucus responsibility to carry it out, (or not, if the caucus decide that way)

        • Robert Guyton 6.1.2.1

          "I reckon, I couldn't live with my conscience if I was asking people to do what I wouldn't be prepared to do myself."

          Jenny, are Green MPs asking others to give up flying no matter what the circumstance?

          Would you require a rescue helicopter pilot to "give up flying"?

          Of all people, I expect Green MPs will feel most conflicted by the needs pressed upon them by being an elected representative; flying, in order to do their job, is one of the keenest-felt, most necessary hypocrisies; they mustn't, but they must. In a situation that can't be resolved, continuously calling them out for it is pointless and damaging, imo.

          • Jenny How to get there 6.1.2.1.1

            Robert Guyton

            1 December 2019 at 12:59 pm

            …..Would you require a rescue helicopter pilot to "give up flying"?

            Of course not.

            Robert if you had been reading my posts you would see that I have not even calling for our MPs to give up flying when there are no alternatives.

            Being an island nation with no regular passenger services, to even our nearest neighboring countries, means that any Green MP or any other MP that had to travel overseas in the course of their duties would have no other choice.

            I accept that. 

            To conduct their parliamentary business, (as well as keep in touch with their nominated electorate, there are other options). The first; would be to move to Wellington, instead of commuting by air.

            The second; surface travel by bus, train or car.

            The third; tele-commuting which should be more than adequate to conduct electorate clinics, which can be set up and organised by local electorate volunteers and staffers.

            Of all forms of air travel domestic short haul commuting is more polluting than international flights.

            Greta Thunberghas given up all air traval. Cold play seems to have given up most air travel. Even you Robert have admitted to 'eschewing' flying as an individual statement. No doubt it would be much more convenient for you to hop on plane when you need to get around the country, but you don't. Clearly you have made a judgement that any personal hardship your self imposed ban causes you is worth it.

            How much more worth it would it be, if all MPs took the same stance?

            This would be a powerful political statement to the whole country, possibly  the whole world.

            It's called leadership.

            Is it such a big ask for our Green MPs to set a leading example?

            The first thing the Green Party Caucus could do following on from deciding to  to set a leading example by giving up all their domestic air travel privileges is forward a bill to remove all free domestic air travel for all MPs. and instead divert that money into state of art video conferencing suites for all MPs.
             

          • Jenny How to get there 6.1.2.1.2

            Robert Guyton

            1 December 2019 at 12:59 pm

            …..flying, in order to do their job, is one of the keenest-felt, most necessary hypocrisies; they mustn't, but they must. In a situation that can't be resolved,….

            'they mustn't, but they must.'

            Surely some of the greatest five words ever written on this blog site.

            Capturing the whole climate change dilemma in just one sentence.

            The sentence of course is completely illogical.

            Why must they?

            There is heaps of evidence why they mustn't, why we all mustn't.

            Yet we all keep doing what we mustn't

            Behaviours don't change and despite all the agreements signed and targets agreed, emissions continue their relentless rise.

            https://www.dw.com/en/carbon-dioxide-levels-highest-in-human-history/a-48726280

            "they mustn't, but they must…."

            Famous last words;

            They are almost poetic

            I feel a haiku coming on

            They mustn't, but they must.

            They must but they mustn't

            They couldn't but they could

            They could but they couldn't

            They didn't but they did

            They did but they didn't

            Maybe we could get it engraved on our species collective headstone.

        • greywarshark 6.1.2.2

          "I reckon, I couldn't live with my conscience if I was asking people to do what I wouldn't be prepared to do myself."

          It's not a matter of your conscience that concerns me JennyHowto.   It's the wellbeing of the planet and people and how best to work in with people trying to conserve what's left.  

          Myself, I have no time for purists who will argue unto death the  various points on a pin seen through a microscope.   What is required is a love for other people and things and gratitude and wonder for having a short time in this world at all.   Bloody amazing to be here with you all!  

          People in the world can make up all sorts of rules and regulations out of their heads.    Nature follows its inexorable way.   We have to work out how we can manage to fit in with nature, and think out suitable and sensible rules and understandings to enable that.   None of which can be set in stone.   Only nature can handle the setting-in-stone business, at it's own pace.

        • Grafton Gully 6.1.2.3

          “I will drive to this meeting at my own expense.”

          Have you considered Inter City ?

          https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/116614680/hightech-house-factory-can-make-two-homes-a-day-for-fletcher-building

      • Jenny How to get there 6.1.3

        U.N. Secretary-General Antonio Guterres is warning that the efforts so far are insufficient to overcome the “point of no return” in climate change.

        “What is lacking is political will,” Guterres told reporters on the eve of the COP25 meeting, which opened Monday.

        https://theworldlink.com/news/world/the-latest-guterres-sets-out-stark-choice-on-climate-change/article_343e03a9-9b2a-5e58-afc0-9870b1cf8544.html

        Hi Robert I have reconsidered my opinion that some Green MPs may have chosen not to fly. Of course they haven't. I agree with you that they would not have made that decision lightly. But of course that would be impossible.

        That would be impossible because you said they only considered this as individuals.

        If all their other colleagues were all still flying it would be impossible for them to take this decision.

        What is needed is for them to discuss taking this matter as a collective action.

        And then be bound by the majority caucus decision.

        They may all vote to continue to flying. Who knows?

        But you can't claim Robert, "Green MPs will have heard and considered that proposal"

        They may have heard it, but they haven't considered it. Well not seriously at least.

        I maintain that individual actions are meaningless.

        I was reconfirmed in this view by an expert lawyer commenting on the bus drivers strike action in collectively refusing to take bus fairs as a way to pressure their employer to bargain with them.

        This legal expert said that if an individual drive did this it would be illegal. But is perfectly legal to do collectively. In fact if an individual driver stopped accepting fares they could even be charged with theft from an employer.

        Nothing worth doing can be done by an individual human being, building a house, building a road, crossing an ocean, fighting climate change. All these big tasks must be attempted collectively. If they are to be done well.

        Even deciding to give a lead must be done collectively or it is meaningless.

        • Sacha 6.1.3.1

          They may have heard it, but they haven't considered it.

          And how would you know that? Just because people do not do what you want, it does not mean they have not thought about it. Grow up.

          • Jenny How to get there 6.1.3.1.1

            Hi Sacha,
            I was referencing Robert Guyton who said, "Green MPs will have heard and considered that proposal, JennyHTGT. The choice they have individually made will not have been made lightly"

            I think Robert would know what he is talking about don't you?

            According to Robert The Green MPs will have heard of this proposal but they have made 'The choice' 'individually' ie as individuals to continue flying. Which I took to mean that they never took this matter to the caucus for a collective decision. My opinion is, if the matter is left up to individual choice, it is no choice at all, every individual would have had to agree to keep flying, otherwise they would be left behind by those who were determined to keep flying. 

            It has to be a collective decision or it is no decision at all.

            They may have heard of it (as individuals) but they haven't considered it as a caucus policy.

            Which in my opinion means they really haven't considered it.

            • Sacha 6.1.3.1.1.1

              How do you know they have not considered it as caucus policy?

              • Jenny How to get there

                I think it would have been pretty momentous if they had. (which ever way they voted).

                And I think Robert Guyton would have heard of it. Robert Guyton, (who seems to have some insight into this), said they considered it as individuals.

                I take him at his word.

                 

                • Jenny How to get there

                  To which I might add Sacha, I think that it is highly unlikely that the Green Caucus have met and voted on this proposal, and voted it down. And then kept this decision secret.

                  As Winston Churchill was reputed to have once said, "A secret can only really be kept if it is known by only two people and one of those people is dead."

                   

                   

                  • solkta

                    Do you think that the Green Caucus put out a press release about every decision they make? What would be the point?

                    More the point, why do you continue to harp on about this for i think a year now? What is the point? It is a stupid idea. If the Green Caucus have discussed this it would have only been for about two minutes – it is a stupid idea. MPs need to be interacting in person with people and environments to effectively do their job. If the Green MPs were to give up air travel they would be hugely disadvantaged in progressing both the causes they pursue and the perception of voters that they are effective in what they do.

                    If you want to reduce air travel then why not suggest a specific tax on that? Would it not be best to start by reducing non-essential travel first?

                    • Jenny How to get there

                      ….If you want to reduce air travel then why not suggest a specific tax on that? 

                      solkta 4 December 2019 at 8:40 am

                      Do as I say not as I do?
                      And on top of that a punitive tax to force you do as I say?
                      While enjoying a completely free air travel perk themselves?
                      Doesn't sound like a vote winner to me.

                      Your other points:

                      …..MPs need to be interacting in person with people and environments to effectively do their job. If the Green MPs were to give up air travel they would be hugely disadvantaged in progressing both the causes they pursue and the perception of voters that they are effective in what they do.
                       

                      solkta 4 December 2019 at 8:40 am

                      Greta Thunberg seems to have no trouble in progressing the causes she pursues, despite giving up air travel completely.

                      Winston Peters conducted a winning election campaign in Northland from the back of bus. In my opinion if Green MPs find surface travel too onerous they could move to Wellington to conduct their parliamentary business. And use video conferencing and local volunteers to conduct their electorate clinics, in their chosen electorates. During election time they could move back to their chosen electorates and do what Winston did to win Northland.

                      But generally how onerous is surface travel really, especially on their salaries and government travel subsidies?

                      Their forebears managed it. Is it really that much of an ask for MPs (not just Green MPs) to forego flying?

                      In my opinion at the very least MPs should have the free flight perk removed from them. If they really have to fly compared to taking other forms of transport then they should have to reach into their own pockets. That would give MPs an incentive to set a moral example if nothing else does.

                      …….It is a stupid idea. If the Green Caucus have discussed this it would have only been for about two minutes – it is a stupid idea.
                       

                      solkta 4 December 2019 at 8:40 am

                      If the Green Party have discussed this and voted it down (in two  minutes) It will not be the last time that they will have to revisit this decision. And even if they vote it down again, and again and continue to vote it down. Sooner or later the pressure of the glaring anomaly of calling for the public to cut back on carbon emissions while doing the opposite themselves will cut into their voting base.  
                       

                    • Sacha

                      Greta Thunberg is late to the COP25 conference after spending 3 weeks crossing the Atlantic. Even she knows others do not (yet) have that luxury, let alone busy leaders. Armchair warriors are a pain in the arse.

                    • Incognito []

                      I’d rather have our elected representatives in Parliament do what they’re supposed to do than driving up & down the country. Face time (not the Apple app) is essential in and for functioning democracy. Once we resort to virtual meetings online, we might as well hand over our governance to AI algorithms with personalised avatars. We’re almost there 😉

                    • Sacha

                      Winston Peters conducted a winning election campaign in Northland from the back of bus.

                      That region is not known for an established transport network by air or sea he could have used instead. Maybe if this was a century ago. It isn't.

                    • solkta

                      @jenny

                      That you think that Winston had an option to use air travel to get around Northland during the Northland bi-election shows how much you actually think through the nonsense you write.

                    • Jenny How to get there

                      Where there is a will there is a way.

                      After being stranded on the wrong continent after the conference was moved from Chile to Madrid, she needed some environmentally-friendly transportation.

                      https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/australia/117985015/meet-the-aussie-family-who-took-greta-thunberg-across-the-atlantic

                      Imagine if there was the political will to invest in large high speed environmentally friendly passenger carrying vessels plying the same route, offering fares at a fraction of a transatlantic airplane ticket. Three weeks could be shrunk to 3 days.

                      https://www.innovasjonnorge.no/en/tjenester/kundehistorier/kundehistorier-eng/brodrene-aa-eng/

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HSC_High_Speed_Jet

                      https://www.incat.com.au/world-first-incat-lng-ship/

  6. Bruce 7

    It seems to me that for almost every problem that we have is caused by the banning of hemp and the solutions are to be found in it's use. I' m sure this can't be so because then thinking people who supposedly  have our best interests at heart would have us starting to plant tomorrow.

    https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2555094347860095&id=324041260965426

    • greywarshark 7.1

      Perhaps we need to catch up on the mental toughness talked about in this interview from this am on Radionz.

      Mental toughness has become one of the most common phrases in learning and development, frequently used but often without context. Professor Peter Clough from Huddersfield University looks at how organisations can build resilient workers who can prosper under pressure, and believes challenges should be viewed as opportunities, not threats.

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/sunday/audio/2018724862/can-you-teach-mental-toughness

      What is referred to – challenges – seems to be what we are facing and which have to be thought around.    Thinking around seems quite a rare idea, as usually nations just go bull-headed at what they want to do, and start a war, or create a diversion and grab what they want while everyone is looking  the other way, or send in undermining agents who divide the nation and make it weak.   So go 'Rutherford'.

  7. A 8

    ARGH!

    How cool is this?  I know many people get unlimited internet (not me), but this would be highly beneficial to some kids in need.  It's hard enough with tech dividing the less wealthy students, and free wifi can be very limiting too.

    yes yes (that was my two thumbs up)….

    Unused data on your plan can be donated if you have a minimum of 5GB remaining before hitting your cap. Donations can be made in 1GB increments up to 10GB, and you can donate once every 24 hours.

    “We want to empower our customers to do good with their data … some months they use it all, other months they have some left over,” said Ms Bayer Rosmarin

    From tomorrow, Optus postpaid customers can donate data straight through the Optus app on their smartphone, while prepaid customers can do so via SMS.

    According to consumer comparison site Finder, 27 per cent of us blew through our monthly data caps at least once every 12 months as data consumption via smartphone increased by more than 30 per cent in a year.

    The associated cost of doing so means we’ve collectively wasted $152 million in excess data charges.

    Now all we need is a community minded, forward thinking NZ version. 

     

     

     

  8. Jenny How to get there 9

    We have set deadlines, we have had international agreements, we have had headlines and editorials. we have hand wringing at the highest levels.

    What we haven't had is decisive action.

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/carbon-emissions-show-no-signs-of-peaking/

  9. Jenny How to get there 10

    Leadership.

    (the missing ingredient)

    Or real change starts at the top

    How hard is a low-carbon lifestyle? A Berlin family tells all

    …..That involved starting with little things such as getting the children involved in growing their own vegetables in the small plot next to their apartment.

    But it hasn't all been a bed of roses. Or even cauliflowers. Beese has also been frustrated at seeing the emissions tally rise over necessary costs, which she says should be tackled higher up.

    "Why can't  politicians or the state  take over this responsibility and force companies, for example, to at least inform consumers about the amount of emissions being released by producing certain products?"

    She's also realized the extent and depth of some of her fellow citizens' ignorance and lethargy.

    "Some people don't know a lot about climate change, but then there are people who know but who don't care."

    Over the course of the year, these factors combined have made Beese consider quitting the project on several occasions.

    "When you hear other people saying it doesn't make sense, that you won't change anything, you come close to giving up," she said….

    https://www.dw.com/en/how-hard-is-a-low-carbon-lifestyle-a-berlin-family-tells-all/a-46615309

    Yet people did victory gardening for years during the war,*
    The difference was inspiring leadership.

    It was hard for this family to complete their experiment when all around them society at large was continuing business as usual

    *(many continued it long after. My Grandmother for instance who lived through the war kept a huge garden her whole life right up untill she had to move to a rest home.)

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