Listening to left wing dissent

Written By: - Date published: 7:10 am, December 16th, 2019 - 178 comments
Categories: Brexit, community democracy, democratic participation, Left, uk politics - Tags: , ,

You couldn’t pay me to vote for a right wing party, so it’s hard to imagine under what conditions someone who has traditionally voted Labour for decades would now vote for the Tories in the UK General Election. On the other hand, I can understand why the three-way standoff between traditional lefties, liberals and centrists is deeply unattractive.

It’s been edifying watching commentary from the UK on what might have gone wrong. There is the expected range of views from the left that it wasn’t our fault: it was the MSM, Corbyn, Brexit, Boomers, Blairites, ABU (anyone but us). These often have sound reasoning behind them, but they’re not sufficient.

What stands out for me are the voices of the people who are saying actually, there were solid reasons for abandoning Labour, this is why I did. There’s something important here about really listening to dissent and being willing to engage with views that don’t necessarily make immediate sense in the context of our own personal ideologies.

Bearing in mind that many of the policies in Labour’s manifesto were very popular, and that this list isn’t intended as a comprehensive view, or definitive explanation, but here are some of the takes I’ve found most thought-provoking.

Stability matters. A short vid of lifelong Labour voter Henry talking about why he voted Conservative,

https://twitter.com/Frau_Deutsch_/status/1205777084397891584

What I hear from this man: he wants a government with the kind of stability you get from unity and doesn’t trust a Labour that is internally divided.

We see this value around stability in NZ with the tendency to vote more conservatively after an emergency (Chch2), or where people shy away from chaos and towards perceptions of competency (Greens and Labour respectively in the 2017 election), or where the radical edge isn’t trusted with parliamentary power even where there is support for policy (low vote for any of the left of Labour parties or even radical centrist parties like TOP).

Lefties like myself who see radical change as being a fundamental requirement for addressing large, intractable issues like the housing crisis or climate change often ignore that most people are naturally resistant to upheaval even when there is a perceived reward. I don’t think this necessarily means that the left has to resign itself to centrism, but maybe the people who want to smash capitalism could spend some time talking with the people who fear what would happen to them if we did, and find the common ground.

Culture matters. The lack of empathy comment from the young liberal woman in the video, it’s not that she is wrong, it’s that they’re both right but she is probably the one with the lesser ability to understand or accept the other. If the young liberal woman represents modern Labour, she exemplifies a kind of cultural blindness to why people legitimately feel Labour doesn’t serve them. For many people politics is about a good cultural fit, and there’s plenty of analysis about the problems with Labour parties generally on that regard. It also stood out to me that the man talked about voting with his heart and his discomfit with being a laughing stock over Brexit. For a party intent on identity politics, it’s weird that some people’s sense of belonging is so resoundingly ignored.

Brexit matters. Some of the solid Labour electorates in the north voted Leave in the original referendum. They’ve just voted Leave again.

https://twitter.com/craigblackoreyt/status/1205311700389511177

https://twitter.com/craigblackoreyt/status/1205351282552254466

While the Brexit campaign ran on a dangerous xenophobic, racist, and divisive platform it doesn’t mean that class wasn’t a driver for many voters, nor that liberals didn’t drop the ball from their own bias in ignoring class as a core issue.

From my green edge perspective Brexit always looked like the one rare chance the UK had of stopping or at least slowing the happy death cult of neoliberalism. My main memory of the original Brexit referendum was the impression of liberals all freaking out about how terrible it would be to lose privileges like the freedom to travel at will, without offering any solution to the genuine issues of social and economic decay that neoliberalism was generating. Or even any real acknowledgement that class issues might be legitimate.

Political education matters. This was one of the more heart-wrenching things I read,

https://twitter.com/LukePagarani/status/1205489614556979207

There’s both great sadness and great hope in that, but it does make me wonder how there is such a large part of the working class that is non-political. How did that even happen?

That whole twitter thread is an eyeopener, with some challenging ideas about older white English people and their role in holding on to political and social hegemony.

Journalism matters. Yes, yes, there are massive problems with the MSM and social media giants. In addition, there is this,

https://twitter.com/sarahditum/status/1205515711403188225

And this is why the failure of Labour is a failure of journalism. Too much of the material that gets published under Left-wing mastheads is written by the Left, to the Left, under the assumption that there is an imaginary public out there who will automatically agree with their politics if only they are presented with them. (Owen Jones, king of this tendency, offered this on the eve of the election: “Young people have been hit hard. Now they can rise up and reject Johnson.” The young people declined.)

There’s a tendency for the left to blame centre lefties for the failure of Labour parties, but I don’t think any position on the left is without responsibility here where we are insisting that people should adopt our beliefs.  I’m not arguing for abandonment of progressive values. I’m suggesting that the liberal project is on the verge of failing, and that we cannot rely on ‘social progress is inevitable’. Nor can we carry on with the strategy that we can force people on board.

What we probably need is to build relationships across social and political difference. The Pākehā left has a lot to learn from Māori in this regard. He aha te mea nui o te ao? He tāngata, he tāngata, he tāngata.

Update: post-election poll on why people didn’t vote Labour is here.

178 comments on “Listening to left wing dissent ”

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  1. weka 1
    16 December 2019 at 7:11 am

    btw, those that want to run a 'I know the single cause' line, might want to have a look at this poll out two days after the election. (Omitted from post because of length). Polls are pretty blunt instruments, and I haven't looked closely at the methodology and questions here, but I think we are better served by nuance.

    (sticking this to the top of comments after a number of single cause comments).

    https://twitter.com/tpgcolson/status/1205517267213131776

    • Nic the NZer 1.1
      16 December 2019 at 12:48 pm

      There is a big problem with interpretation of polls especially in FPP electoral systems. What matters for the election outcome is not the over-all aggregate favourite but the aggregate favourite by constituancy.

      By something called a Simpson's paradox the overall aggregate result (what is the most relevant issue in this poll) does not need to be the same as the result when broken up by into categories (say category by constitiuancy).

      For an intuition of how this comes about this is similar to the US election being won by the candidate with fewer popular votes.

      • weka 1.1.1
        16 December 2019 at 12:52 pm

        Are you saying that the poll would be more useful if it reported the same questions asked in each electorate? In which case I agree. I'm guessing the questions were relatively simplistic too.

        • Nic the NZer 1.1.1.1
          16 December 2019 at 1:06 pm

          It might be more useful. It would also require more respondents or have much higher margins of error to do so.

          When Simpson's paradoxes occur in scientific statistics there is no way to determine which aggregate categorisation in right. You pick one based on which model you think is correct. With FPP elections we know its per electorate at least.

          Its just worth understanding that the weightings of which issue are important to the average voter may differ from the issue which cost/benefited you in the most electorates.

        • Nic the NZer 1.1.1.2
          16 December 2019 at 1:10 pm

          Also, something I think the right wing have been very successful at is finding a wedge issue and making the narrative primarily about that issue. It could be that its a lot easier to identify what issue splits your political opponents rather than which issues generate broad support.

    • mauī 1.2
      16 December 2019 at 2:31 pm

      The major swings in polls leading up to the election are pretty clearly based around Brexit related events. The newly formed Brexit party running on a single issue had 25% of the vote just a few months ago. You can't tell me that anything surrounding the Labour leadership was having anything like that kind of effect.

  2. Sanctuary 2
    16 December 2019 at 7:17 am

    So I went away for a lovely weekend with my partner but here is my take today on the UK election, for whatever it is worth.

    The gloating from centrist remainers (including our own version of them here) at the Labour defeat has been extraordinary, and the meta one can take from that is it speaks to how threatened by Corbynism these very important heroes of received common sense have felt everywhere. The economic assumptions that underpin their incomes and their cultural/political relevance has been challenged. They have responded to that by making common cause with the right to destroy the threat. The left is constantly doomed to being surprised by the vehemence of class privilege in protecting itself. Socialism never finds its friends in the middle class.

    The other thing is that despite the Lib-Dems getting destroyed and every "sensible" centrist who abandoned Labour in fits of histronics after their leaking, downright disloyalty and coups against Corbyn failed lost their seats the entire liberal press remains establishment Lib-Dems in outlook and they'll now seek to enable the destruction socialism in Labour.

    UK Labour lost because Leave Labour voters in the North stayed home in droves and the Brexit party vote collapsed into the conservatives. Thats it in a nutshell. The narrative from the middle class press will be Workington man abandoned Labour because it has lost touch with the the working class, but the reality is the remainers who demanded Labour pivot to a second referendum and split the party in their dogmatic insistance Labour become a remain party handed this massive majority to the Tories. Not only did the factionalism of the extreme centre (The Tiggers, the independents, the virulent and flagrant disloyalty of the anti-Corbynites, the warmed over Blairites hijacking and dividing the remain camp, the orange Lib-Dems and their mates in the Lib-Dem press supporting a centre that no longer has a constituency) split the centre-left vote , their forcing Labour into a second referndum postion also forced Labour to fight an election on the issue where the party was weakest, and handed the northern leave seats to the Tories.

    Jeremy Corbyn was an issue with voters. Clearly the years of unrelentling character assassination and smearing worked. I doubt changing him will make much difference. Milliband, Brown, Neil Kinnock and Michael Foot were all subject to similar smears and character assassinations that affected their popularity. Only Thatchers greatest achievement – Tony Blair – was not subject to massive character assassination.

    Finally, Britain is now pretty fucked. The establishment has been revealed as both decadent and unreformable. The future for the UK appears to be a slide into an increasingly unequal, quasi third world authoritarian surveillance state. The centre has collapsed in British politics and the current political climate could be best described as one of toxic disaster nationalism. The Tories reinvented themselves along the lines of the Australian Liberal Party and the US Republican party and like them has become a party of nascent fascism.

    What lesson for us? Well, it is obvious Simon Bridges is well along the path to reinventing the NZ National party along the same lines as the UK Tories, who have reinvented themselves as the party of nativist anger, English exceptionalism, xenophobia and empire fantasists (how else can you explain a transport policy that includes fining cyclists as a headline centre piece? that isn't policy, it is baiting angry drivers into a culture war againt cyclists).

    NZ Labour needs to understand that Bridges is trying to create the same toxic culture war here that has enabled the far right overseas and has delivered extremist conservative governments in three out of the four elections (Australia, USA, UK and Canada) held in anglosphere countries so far, and come up with a counter ASAP.

    • Tony Veitch (not etc.) 2.1
      16 December 2019 at 8:06 am

      "Finally, Britain is now pretty fucked. The establishment has been revealed as both decadent and unreformable. The future for the UK appears to be a slide into an increasingly unequal, quasi third world authoritarian surveillance state."

      Airstrip One ?

    • Anne 2.2
      16 December 2019 at 10:00 am

      Absolutely and unequivocally agree Sanctuary.

      In a nutshell:

      Labour working class (which is most of them even if they won't admit it) have been taken for one bloody big ride by the Tories and, along with the years and years of character assassination of Labour by the tabloid press and others, many lost their marbles and capitulated.

      Yes, it was helped along the way by some of Labour's own members who were more interested in themselves rather than the party and country. Looks like most of them have been sent packing and good riddance to them.

      Maybe now Labour can get a new leader – preferably a woman – who can unite them and bring them back to where they once were – a party for all Brits and not just the chosen few. It shouldn't be too hard given what probably lies ahead of them.

    • Molly 2.3
      16 December 2019 at 10:29 am

      "The gloating from centrist remainers (including our own version of them here) at the Labour defeat has been extraordinary, and the meta one can take from that is it speaks to how threatened by Corbynism these very important heroes of received common sense have felt everywhere. The economic assumptions that underpin their incomes and their cultural/political relevance has been challenged. They have responded to that by making common cause with the right to destroy the threat. The left is constantly doomed to being surprised by the vehemence of class privilege in protecting itself. Socialism never finds its friends in the middle class."

      I agree with this entirely.

      Added to that is the arrogance shown by many of the remainers – similar to that shown to Trump supporters – that disdains their voting choice so much, that refusal to even comprehend why such votes were cast – works to build a wider divide.

      There were many in Britain that have seen their prospects for employment, housing and an enjoyable life be diminished over the last twenty or so years. This would be true for many in the US. What has been on offer is more of the same. The end result of the voters dividing themselves into factions has manifested in the victory of both Trump and Johnson. It is not the result of the "far left" asking for too much, it seems to me to be the result of many players not listening at all. And many of those players are currently comfortable and unwilling to give audience to those that are not.

      Corbyn – and whoever replaces him if they are not another Blairite – will always be subjected to a smear campaign from the establishment and most of the media. The fact that many within the Labour party persisted in joining that project, despite the membership indicating their preference, twice, is an indication of how self-serving many politicians are.

      I wouldn't have voted for Trump – but understand why many did. I probably would have voted for Brexit, because I think the devolution of sovereignty happens in such a way, and the economic benefits and freedom of movement has not been evenly distributed.

      The immediate reaction of the remainers to the referendum was often arrogant and demeaning, and created a divide in the media reporting that is hard to see a resolution to. The denigration apparent in the media to Trump supporters also ignores the fact that there may be many reasons that they despaired over seeing improvement so much that they voted him in.

      Corbyn, despite his personal view, took the party line over Brexit and included that in his policy. He also made reference to uniting the country, something no other political animal in this current time would do, given the propensity to work on people's prejudices and bias to get votes. (Adern's reaction to Turei during the election campaign shows how expected and effective this is.) The Overton window has opened discussion about many issues, precisely because of Jeremy Corbyn's political movement and policy announcements. This is progress, and it requires the input of many, not the few – to get further traction. Which is how it should be.

  3. Sanctuary 3
    16 December 2019 at 7:26 am

    Just BTW – Sarah Ditum writes for the News Statesman, which should tell you everything you need to know about her perspective.

  4. Buster12 4
    16 December 2019 at 7:49 am

    If they got rid of Corbin after the last election they possibly may of beaten bojo. But nope they listened to the circle jerk that is twitter and nowblook certain to lose the next couple of elections.

    • Sanctuary 4.1
      16 December 2019 at 7:52 am

      Who is "Corbin" you semi-literate twat?

    • KJT 4.2
      16 December 2019 at 8:17 am

      You really think Labour would have beaten Bojo, with all the middle class "remainers", in Labour pissing off their Northern voters?

      Not to mention the establishment Labour MP's and even establishment, middle class "lefties" unrelentingly bagging Corbyn

    • mikesh 4.3
      16 December 2019 at 9:16 am

      Get rid of Corbin (sic) after the last election? Really? When, contrary to expectations, he came close to winning?

      I would think the results of the next two elections would be unpredictable a this stage, given that brexit will soon be no longer an an issue.

      • Nic the NZer 4.3.1
        16 December 2019 at 9:38 am

        Of course dump Corbyn now and give up. Remember, once brexit is not the main election item Momentum will be much stronger in Labour. If the 'right' lesson isn't learned from this election then the left might take over UK Labour.

  5. Sacha 5
    16 December 2019 at 8:15 am

    RNZ Morning Report interviewed a politics professor from Nottingham about UK Labour losing its traditional but Brexit-supporting northern seats (6m) https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018727062/uk-labour-s-red-wall-crumbles-in-heavy-election-defeat

    I heard someone else in passing this morning saying it was Labour's voters staying home rather than switching to another party. Someone else may have a link about that, but it fits with past NZ elections.

  6. Stuart Munro. 6
    16 December 2019 at 8:19 am

    I tend to view the troubles of the Left as quality assurance issues, which always create a bit of difficulty when they involve less than perfectly concrete issues.

    Because the wealthy are a small and decreasing minority in our society, electoral problems on the Left indicate a failure to address the core concerns of their constituency.

    It tends to happen because those concerns are not acceptable to our ostensible representatives – Brexit in the UK and mass immigration in NZ are cleavage points between the middle class and mass left. Failing to address these issues clearly and meaningfully is potentially electorally fatal. They make poor hills for the Left to die on.

    • Sanctuary 6.1
      16 December 2019 at 8:29 am

      I guess Ash Sarkar and Sarah Ditum – two well educated, London living women – bitterly arguing about who better understands northern working class men kinda sums up the utter cluelessness of the British media class. And I say that as a big fan of Ash Sarkar.

  7. Climaction 7
    16 December 2019 at 8:53 am

    a dry, incisive and intellectual look at the issues facing the left in the UK general election Weka.

    Thank you for this.

    Far better than the piece DPF has done from a conservative viewpoint over on kiwiblog.

    [I see that you have failed to respond to repeated moderation requests and somehow slipped through the Pre-Moderation filter. Unfortunately, for you, I try to be consistent and can be very persistent. Take three weeks off, a week for each assertion you made without supporting link, even when prompted. I’d also suggest you take this on the chin because you have wasted too much moderation time already and you have shown disrespect for my patience towards you. In other words, you got off lightly – Incognito]

    [“I can’t find all these mod requests? can you please provide a link. the only one i did find i replied too.”

    Are you kidding me? When I moderate, I always leave a reply and all you need to do is read the replies to your comments. Only trolls spray and walk away. Anyway, because you said “please”: https://thestandard.org.nz/the-freedom-to-lie-during-an-election-campaign/#comment-1672444, https://thestandard.org.nz/the-freedom-to-lie-during-an-election-campaign/#comment-1672478, https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-13-12-2019/#comment-1672874, https://thestandard.org.nz/the-freedom-to-lie-during-an-election-campaign/#comment-1672999 – Incognito]

    • Incognito 7.1
      16 December 2019 at 1:06 pm

      See my Moderation note @ 8:53 AM.

    • Paddington 7.2
      16 December 2019 at 1:23 pm

      Weka's commentary is very good, but don't be in such a hurry to dismiss DPF's piece. He rightly identifies two of the key issues as 1. Brexit and 2. the leadership of Jeremy Corbyn ("Jeremy Corbyn was a uniquely awful opponent"), which ties in with Weka's follow up comment here https://thestandard.org.nz/listening-to-left-wing-dissent/#comment-1673663.

      • Bearded Git 7.2.1
        16 December 2019 at 5:40 pm

        …and when they asked people what they didn't like about Corbyn they would say:

        1. His position on Brexit-so this should be added to the "Brexit" reason why they did not vote Labour and taken off the "Corbyn" reason.

        2. Corbyn's antisemitism-which was a myth created and perpetuated by numerous lies in the right-wing media as a slur against Corbyn.

        I do think that the issue of immigration, and Boris's promise to clamp down on this played very well to the Labour voters. While this is also part of Brexit, it is a big issue in northern towns with the perception they were full of Polish plumbers.

        • Paddington 7.2.1.1
          16 December 2019 at 6:31 pm

          1. Agreed.

          2. If, and I say if, the narrative about Jeremy Corbyn being anti-semitic was a "myth created and perpetuated by numerous lies in the right-wing media", then he did a really poor job refuting it. Perhaps that's because that narrative originated from within the party itself, rather than the right wing media.

          • Nic the NZer 7.2.1.1.1
            16 December 2019 at 7:02 pm

            Funny thing about proving the negative 'Corbyn is not antisemitic'. Turns out its virtually impossible. Where as proving a positive only fails due to there being no evidence what-so-ever of it being true.

            • Paddington 7.2.1.1.1.1
              17 December 2019 at 6:33 pm

              You are right about proving a negative, of course, however here's the problem. The UK Labour Party has had problems with anti-semitism, and these problems are being openly exposed by people within the party, and seem to have becoem worse under Corbyn's leadership (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/anti-semitism-claims-hound-u-k-s-labour-party-despite-n781621).

              • McFlock …
                17 December 2019 at 6:42 pm

                I think it got worse post-dolt45 and with the brexit jingoism. Fuckwits generally feel more comfortable to express themselves openly.

                But Labour failed to come down on it like a ton of bricks, and it festered away. Think University of Auckland's denialism as opposed to Auckland transport's zero tolerance.

                I'm not even sure how much power Corbyn had to deal with e.g. comments in branch meetings. There is a systemic issue in UK Labour that pissed off some members and was exploited happily by the tories, including trying as hard as possible to transfer that problem over to Corbyn personally, in my opinion.

                • Paddington …
                  18 December 2019 at 12:46 pm

                  Good points. I'm not a fan of Corbyn or his politics, but once a label like 'anti-semitism' is thrown around, and when some within his own party doing the 'throwing', no amount of teflon is enough.

                  • McFlock …
                    18 December 2019 at 3:12 pm

                    Well, they're pushing shit uphill throwing that label at Sanders, because it's not valid at all.

                    But when members at all levels were complaining about antisemitism and their complaints not being addressed, that was a mud pit Corbyn was standing close to.

                    Every party has dickheads turning up. The question is whether those dickheads have been tacitly accepted, or challenged when their dickheadedness has come to the fore. I've been at branch meetings where someone has made excellent points, then suddenly takes a turn towards bad territory (racism, calls for violence, whatever) – you know you're in a good party when the tone of the audience goes from agreement to "no" when a speaker starts going into that territory.

              • Nic the NZer …
                17 December 2019 at 8:19 pm

                Good, so we have already established that this is based on an evidence free smear campaign against Jeremy Corbyn. You've already come a long way.

                • Paddington …
                  18 December 2019 at 12:52 pm

                  One of the comments I was responding to was the claim that Jeremy Corbyn being anti-semitic was a "myth created and perpetuated by numerous lies in the right-wing media".

                  My point is that claims of anti-semitism have come from inside the Labour Party, and appear to have become worse under Corbyn's leadership. That isn't 'evidence', as such, of Corbyn's anti-semitism, however it is evidence that, if it is a myth, not all of the blame can be laid at the feet of the right-wing media.

          • SPC 7.2.1.1.2
            16 December 2019 at 7:10 pm

            Two factions in the caucus wanted Corbyn gone.

            Neither wanted the party controlled by the left wing membership. One used blocking Brexit and getting the voters to punish Corbyn for this to get back control of the leadership of the party. The other assisted them because they knew the left of the Labour Party was the only one criticising Israel and opposing annexation of 1967 occupied territory. They provided the Blairites and the MSM with an excuse for their attacks.

    • Incognito 7.3
      16 December 2019 at 2:36 pm

      See my second Moderation note @ 8:53 AM.

  8. Psycho Milt 8
    16 December 2019 at 9:03 am

    For the most part I agree with your post, but don't follow this bit:

    From my green edge perspective Brexit always looked like the one rare chance the UK had of stopping or at least slowing the happy death cult of neoliberalism.

    I keep seeing this from Brexit supporters on the left, but don't see how it makes sense. The Brexit referendum was an artifact of Tory concerns that the EU is too much of a brake on neoliberalism, and during the referendum campaign the right spent a lot of money on propaganda lies in support of Brexit exactly because it would remove that perceived brake on neo-liberalism. The outcome of Brexit is going to be massive gains for UK neoliberals at the expense of the "commoners," and the removal of the UK from any climate change reduction measures the EU may implement. So, how was the referendum ever an opportunity to stop or slow down neoliberalism?

    • Nic the NZer 8.1
      16 December 2019 at 9:29 am

      The EU in itself need not be a neoliberal institution, however the Eurozone project and the way the European states run economic policy are.

      For examples the EU is still in the process of negotiating a trade deal which will be enforced on the members with little ability for states to resist.

      In line with the Labour manifesto many forms of industry nationalisation are prevented.

      And you may think the Eurozone is irrelevant to the UK, until your a country like Scotland who may want to join independently.

      Since we probably dont share a definition of neoliberalism you can take mine to be, the running of all institutions with the profit motive as a primary responsibility. The EUs preferred economic policy is all about that.

    • weka 8.2
      16 December 2019 at 9:29 am

      I'm not sure it was/is, but there was/is a chance that it might nobble the UK economy and slow growth. Not sure I would call my position a left wing support of Brexit, so much as a pointer to the problems of the left wing arguments against Brexit that suddenly seemed to be implying that neoliberalism wasn't so bad after all, hence no real plan to address it in the context of the disenfranchised Brits. In that sense the vote on Thurs makes a lot more sense, not because people were thinking this line, but because they could see that Remain was going to ignore them, again.

      There's some kind of sorting mechanism there, where the people that say that neoliberalism is bad for people don't seem to make the connection with the things they want from Remain being the things that neoliberalism enables (growth and climate destroying standards of living being the obvious ones). Or maybe I'm over-estimating the left wing criticism of neoliberalism.

      • pat 8.2.1
        16 December 2019 at 10:14 am

        " Or maybe I'm over-estimating the left wing criticism of neoliberalism."

        Suspect its more a case of over estimating the depth of engagement of the majority of voters, left, right or centre

      • Psycho Milt 8.2.2
        16 December 2019 at 1:39 pm

        In that sense the vote on Thurs makes a lot more sense, not because people were thinking this line, but because they could see that Remain was going to ignore them, again.

        I hadn't thought of it like that, and yes it does make sense. I've been thinking in terms of Brexit being bad for working class Brits in various ways and it therefore being counter-intuitive for them to support it, but if a working class person's assessment of the arguments against Brexit amount to "the rest of us were happy with the status quo that was causing you such problems and we'd like that status quo to remain in place," voting for that status quo to continue would have no appeal at all.

        • weka 8.2.2.1
          16 December 2019 at 2:28 pm

          Yep, that's how I'm reading it. As a middle class person whose disability has meant I've had one foot in the underclass for several decades because of neoliberal policies from both Labour and National, I have more sympathy for the position than many other liberals.

    • weka 8.3
      16 December 2019 at 9:30 am

      Btw PM, thanks for reading that actual post and responding to that.

      • Anne 8.3.1
        16 December 2019 at 11:07 am

        weka I read your post but don’t fully agree with your take on the linked interview.

        Imo, the gentleman proved my point @ 2.2. He had lost the plot. There he was essentially blaming Labour for the parlous state of the country while giving his vote to the very people who were responsible.

        Ok, its not quite that simple and sectors within Labour played a major role in destroying their chance of success, but I've been down the road of ongoing character assassination and I know how easy it is to convince people of a lie/lies – even among those who should know better.

        As for the young woman, she came across as genuinely shocked and in a brief interview like that was not given a chance to properly explain why.

        I agree with Pat @8.2.1. It happens here too. Labour and other centre-left parties always over-estimate the depth of engagement of the majority of voters. They produce lengthy manifestos and expect the voters will read them and no-one does. They get on telly/radio and fire away on all cylinders with detailed versions about what they plan to do and expect viewers and listeners to listen and no-one does – except for a dedicated few.

        Helen Clark had the right idea – a pledge card with half a dozen sound-bites. Yes, it was not without subsequent controversy but that's another story and was based on Nat “mis-truths” anyway.

        • weka 8.3.1.1
          16 December 2019 at 12:07 pm

          Imo, the gentleman proved my point @ 2.2. He had lost the plot. There he was essentially blaming Labour for the parlous state of the country while giving his vote to the very people who were responsible.

          I didn't hear him blaming Labour for the state of the country, I heard him blaming Labour for the state of Labour, and saying he wasn't wanting to trust them to be in govt. I disagree with him (I think whatever Labour's level of competency, they're not going to fail as a govt), but the point here isn't what I think. It's what he thinks and what he does with his vote.

          Lefties calling him deluded is hardly likely to entice him to voting Labour again.

          I also think that while I support Corbyn's policy agenda, you can't force people to that, and the big issue here is the failure to get more people on board. Again, saying they've lost the plot and were stupidly susceptible to propaganda doesn't strike me as a way to win them back. We're not talking swing voters here, we're talking core Labour vote.

        • weka 8.3.1.2
          16 December 2019 at 12:11 pm

          Re the young woman, you did get that I said both her and the older man were right, right?

          The problem is that the identity politics, liberal side of Labour are not listening to the more conservative side, and this is causing problems. Even worse, you should see how scathing some of the Labour-voting, socialist lefties are of Owen Jones, Momentum and so on at the moment.

          It's really complex, and I think the lack of ability to accommodate difference is going to be a huge problem going forward.

          • Anne 8.3.1.2.1
            16 December 2019 at 12:38 pm

            Yes, but by blaming Labour for the state of Labour he was ignoring the reasons behind the perceived "state of Labour". Setting aside the bickering and undermining by the Blairites et al, the reasons were external and based on lies, innuendo and sabotage. That is where he "lost the plot". I used that expression not in the sense he was stupid or deluded – he didn't come across as either – but rather it is an unfortunate truism. However in the meelee of media generated claims and counter claims it's not surprising. He was conned might have been a better way of putting it.

            Yes, I saw your comment about both being right. The young woman looked a nice person who was obviously upset so I was just trying to give her a bit of leeway.

            I agree with your analysis more than I disagree. I usually do.

            • weka 8.3.1.2.1.1
              16 December 2019 at 12:50 pm

              What I'm suggesting is that in addition to the massive problems with the MSM and propaganda machines, we also acknowledge that the divisions in UK Labour matter to a significant chunk of voters and that we start listening instead of marginalising that.

              You might see those voters as conned, but I think it's still a patronising approach unlikely to endear them to voting Labour again. In terms of losing the plot, I think he read the novel and came to different conclusions than you and I, presumably because he has a different set of values and ways of making sense of the world. My argument here is that instead of framing those people as wrong, we allow them their politics and instead look at how to work across that difference.

              It's a basic principle of treating people as we would want to be treated.

              Yes, the interview of both was very short. A springboard for discussion.

              • Anne …
                16 December 2019 at 4:15 pm

                It was not my intention to sound patronising. All I was trying to point out is that – whether we like it or not – a lot of people seem to have got the situation wrong. It was not their fault because they had so much crap flung at them, it isn't surprising they became confused. If, I'd been in their shoes I would have been confused too.

                And I agree with the comment in your post:

                The lack of empathy comment from the young liberal woman in the video, it’s not that she is wrong, it’s that they’re both right but she is probably the one with the lesser ability to understand or accept the other.

                I put that down to youth, lack of experience and a genuine misunderstanding which will probably correct itself in time.

                • weka …
                  17 December 2019 at 6:29 pm

                  It was not my intention to sound patronising. All I was trying to point out is that – whether we like it or not – a lot of people seem to have got the situation wrong. It was not their fault because they had so much crap flung at them, it isn't surprising they became confused. If, I'd been in their shoes I would have been confused too.

                  I'm sure it's not your intention to be patronising Anne. I guess I don't get how you can be basically saying that they were duped and not see that as patronising. I'm sure that there are people who weren't paying attention and just were influenced by the lies and MSM bias. But to suggest that all those people who voted Labour in the past and didn't this time were somehow stupid, rather than having legitimate reasons, seems hugely problematic. I don't see how this will lead to people voting Labour again. If the hope is that the left can somehow now control the MSM and social media, I think we're fucked. I think our hope lies in building bridges with people who are eg swing voters so that there is more trust. Otherwise it looks like telling them their concerns don't matter.

                  • Anne …
                    17 December 2019 at 6:49 pm

                    Have you never been duped weka? I have. More than once. It can have a devastating effect too once you realise you've been conned. And I'm not stupid. Nor are most of the people I have known who also succumbed to liars, scoundrels and thugs of one kind or another.

                    If you've been the victim of all three its easy to see how others can be easily fooled. It has little to do with stupidity as anyone who has been on the receiving end could tell you. It happens just as much in politics as any other walk of life.

                    oops: quick amendment. There are stupid people who spend their lives being conned and never know it. They can be found in all walks of life but it’s not them i’m talking about.

                    • weka …
                      18 December 2019 at 1:24 am

                      When you were duped were all the people around you also?

                      I guess the point of difference here is that I'm not willing to assume that most of the people who shifted their vote from Labour were duped, nor why we might want to assume that any individual has been eg the man in the video. I can't see any evidence for that. He may well have been, or his concerns might be legitimate.

        • RedLogix 8.3.1.3
          16 December 2019 at 12:41 pm

          And as it happens I still have a full set of those pledge cards Anne devil

    • SPC 9.1
      16 December 2019 at 5:01 pm

      Yup so Owen Jones was right about the left mobilising the young to supporting Labour.

      The only reason why their 2019 vote was higher than 2015 and 2010 – after the internal division within the caucus opposed to Corbyn's leadership.

  10. Jimmy 10
    16 December 2019 at 9:12 am

    I don't know much about UK politics, but it seems to me that while Labour had Jeremy Corbyn as leader, they never really had a chance. In fact, is it comparable to here in NZ when Andrew Little was leading Labour, I think if he had lead Labour in to the 2017 election, we would now definitely have a National lead government. I presume UK Labour have no person like Jacinda to 'save' them.

    • soddenleaf 10.1
      16 December 2019 at 9:48 am

      Labour wasn't clear that's why we got a coalition. Johnson kept it simple, get brexit done fed into the propaganda of election fatigue and spend up on the NHS fed into the winter stay at home Labour voter. Labour doesn't have a game, either here or the UK.

      I, after a few days of thought, had a little chuckle because this was the best outcome. Aside, of course, Johnston giving the two finger salute to all those who stayed at home and effectively voted for him. But hey you can see why he is grumpy, he can't got far off the center with so many bleeding new MPs trying to w in over former Labour seats…

      And then on Scotland, they won but lost, they lost as one everyone is going to want to sit around for a decade to see how Brexit shakes out. Sure position yourself angry so London busy your silence, but hey, it's all good for the union.

      So I chuckle, The Tories are forced to the left, locked in fearing Annoying Labour voters come out in five years. Labour, likewise, have swallowed and choked on stupid and can come out with such lines as Failed Brexit, not Brexiting fast enough, and my fav full integration referendum dump the pound, we thrust the electorate, why don't you? did your not want Brexit.

      It's always been easier to destroy, so opposition to this current false flag govt in Downing street, with only be a joy if they had any labour balls. On that issue, finally find a female leader of the UK Labour party.

      Oh, on CC, the frog isn't noticing the rising heat, and it's body is starting to shutdow, the signal to jump out of the heating pot isn't firing. Enjoy the collapse of civilization, by buying as much carbon as you can , only then will they kick themselves into action. It's the old story, good intentions is the worst kind of evil, where helping mitigates the crisis and so insures the crisis happens.

    • mikesh 10.2
      16 December 2019 at 9:56 am

      As much as I like Jacinda, I would rather see Jeremy Corbyn than her leading the NZ Labour Party. Perhaps we should ask him to emigrate.

      • Jimmy 10.2.1
        16 December 2019 at 12:57 pm

        I can understand your thinking on Labour leader, but I believe if Corbyn lead the NZ Labour party, I think you would see a slide in the polls for Labour of at least 10%. I honestly believe Jacinda is that valuable to Labour but she is certainly not a traditional Labour party type leader.

        • greywarshark 10.2.1.1
          16 December 2019 at 10:06 pm

          Oh dear. Getting nostalgic about 'a traditional Labour party type leader'. Define! and state last trad….leader.

          • Jimmy 10.2.1.1.1
            17 December 2019 at 12:18 am

            Helen Clark. A far stronger willed and decisive leader. If she was leader now, I think there would be a few changes eg. Twyford would no longer be there. And probably neither would ILG after the way he handled Sroubrek.

  11. mauī 11
    16 December 2019 at 9:29 am

    It's quite simple. The election was over Brexit and Labour had possibly the most stupid and odious policy of all asking people – "You know when you said you wanted to leave the EU… well, are you really, really sure you want to do that?"

    Labour sides with the elite and the Conservatives make hay with the disenfranchised vote. The Conservatives are now better positioned to become a left wing force than Labour, how pathetic is that.

    • Dennis Frank 11.1
      16 December 2019 at 2:48 pm

      Very insightful, that first paragraph. Labour elite patronising the working class, apparently assuming the workers lack the emotional intelligence to notice it! So enough workers got pissed off enough to vote Tory.

      Dunno about Boris doing anything leftist tho. Centrist, yes. Workers mainly vote for govts that increase their sense of well-being, thus the old trickle-down gets recycled. Brexit will force business back into being more nimble, but new jobs take time…

  12. Siobhan 12
    16 December 2019 at 10:03 am

    I'm not normally a pedant about such things..but should we assume you meant to put speech marks around..

    "actually, there were solid reasons for abandoning Labour, this is why I did." ?

    As for Brexit..its very weird, so much narrative has been .."oh, they* regret voting leave..we should have another referendum and get the correct vote"..NOW were being told Labour lost because of the perception that they didn't support enacting leave..a situation further confused by Corbyns history of wanting to leave..there's a lot of dots around Brexit and the election and none of them really join up..

    Also interesting is the unrelentingly negative coverage of Corbyn by the press, apparently, according to the press and the establishment intellectuals, not a factor in the election…at least I've yet to see it mentioned…and they wonder why they can't attract advertising..

    https://theconversation.com/uk-election-2019-partisan-press-is-pulling-out-all-the-stops-against-labour-127133?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1574054852

    *The Poors.

    • weka 12.1
      16 December 2019 at 10:28 am

      I'm not normally a pedant about such things..but should we assume you meant to put speech marks around..

      "actually, there were solid reasons for abandoning Labour, this is why I did." ?

      Only if you don't read the whole sentence (but I'd use single quotation marks, because it's not an actual quote).

    • weka 12.2
      16 December 2019 at 10:30 am

      As for Brexit..its very weird, so much narrative has been .."oh, they* regret voting leave..we should have another referendum and get the correct vote"..NOW were being told Labour lost because of the perception that they didn't support enacting leave..a situation further confused by Corbyns history of wanting to leave..there's a lot of dots around Brexit and the election and none of them really join up..

      Which is why I was more interested in listening to the voices of people that shifted from voting Labour to something else. Even with Brexit as a driver, the reasons are going to be complex and intersecting, not simple.

      • soddenleaf 12.2.1
        16 December 2019 at 10:45 am

        What, when, Where, why, whom. Austerity, fedup, n.England, stuff them, Labour voters. The Tories saw a opportunity to go fishing, brexit. Enough Fedup, stuff the economy it ain't working for me, seized on brexit. Then last week they stayed home and collapsed the Lab vote. Labour did not take a position on Brexit, did not even try to muddy the water when they didn't, no fight. Labour should have declared they respected the decision, and in tens years time have a full, dump the pound, intergate fully EU refeendum. Force the middle to decide did they really want to leave… ..but labour had no game. Austerity was the fuel, brexit the oxygen, and Cornyn the heat that brunt his house down.

      • Pierre 12.2.2
        19 December 2019 at 10:32 pm

        I found this letter from Laura Pidcock a painfully honest, and melancholic, account of why some voters didn't vote for Labour. And she avoids the post-election blame game which people have been playing in the media.

        We'll have that Ministry of Employment Rights one day 🙁

    • Sacha 12.3
      16 December 2019 at 1:50 pm

      Labour lost because of the perception that they didn't support enacting leave

      Wasn't it that they refused to commit to any stance on the matter?

      • SPC 12.3.1
        16 December 2019 at 5:15 pm

        Most of the caucus did not like the 2016 result, and would have preferred the half exit – continuation in the customs union and single market after leaving the EU.

        They basically said they (in government) would negotiate such a deal with the EU and then put it to the people for their consent. Corbyn said he would be neutral in that referendum rather than promote the deal to the people.

        It was never going to impress those Labour voters who voted UKIP in 2015 and or Brexit in 2016 (returned to Labour in 2017) . And their vote this time demonstrated that.

        Corbyn's mistake was allowing this election to take place, because holding in any election before Brexit was implemented was always going to cost Labour seats.

  13. RedLogix 13
    16 December 2019 at 10:57 am

    Typing on phone so I'll confine myself to offering my sincere appreciation for your OP weka.

    A few other contributors here would do well to read it again and contemplate.

    • gsays 13.1
      16 December 2019 at 5:43 pm

      Hear, hear.

      A good read that gives some flavour to the mental chewing gum.

      Mmmm.. ugly metaphor but there you go.

  14. Ad 14
    16 December 2019 at 11:07 am

    Nicely structured post Weka.

  15. adam 15
    16 December 2019 at 12:28 pm

    Nothing says support for the establishment, than support for the establishment.

    What a load of crap all in one post – what amount of people just did not vote?

    How many of the so called liberal left led the charge to attack and undermine the labour party?

    Ever see a publication called the guardian?

    How many so called lefty liberals feel for anything the pop media feed them?

    Russia did it!

    So many conspiracy theories, and so many of the self identifying left who then went on to repeat said conspiracy theories.

    So many smears, and so many of self identifying left who then went on to repeat said smears.

    But, no account of the actual numbers of people who voted left (a majority by the way)

    Just more of the same crap we got from the democrats in the USA – blame the voters, not a broken system and never, never, never – blame the liberal sycophants who hold that broken system up.

    • weka 15.1
      16 December 2019 at 12:44 pm

      I didn't blame the voters. In fact I went to a lot of trouble to not apportion blame to specific classes of people because it's clear to me that a left intent on eating itself will be the death of us.

      It's so interesting to see which lefties fail to grasp the intent of the post and then go on to attack other lefties, but utterly fail to explain or demonstrate how attacking other lefties will resolve the problem they perceive to be at fault. This seems to be fairly consistent across the spectrum of the left (lefties, liberals, centrists). Which is why I wrote the post.

      We all know the system is broken adam. Equally obvious are the voting numbers on the left and the problems with FPP. Likewise all the analysis of MSM and whatever.

      What I'm suggesting is that instead of various lw factions trying to claim the moral and intellectual high ground on what to do about that and thus gifting power to the right because we have no foundation for collective action, we might want to take the time to learn how to relate with each other again and then figure out how to work together. Left wing outrage, no matter how righteous, isn't giving us the results we want.

      • Siobhan 15.1.2
        16 December 2019 at 4:26 pm

        I'd be interested to know what people think a compromising, co operative, pragmatic 'Left' (Labour) has achieved since the 80's? be it in the UK or NZ.

        • weka 15.1.2.1
          16 December 2019 at 4:28 pm

          Hard to know what you are asking there Siobhan. Are you asking about the Labour Party or the left?

        • Chris 15.1.2.2
          16 December 2019 at 10:13 pm

          In New Zealand Labour's simply held the baton until the next National government's been ready to govern again.

        • KJT 15.1.2.3
          17 December 2019 at 8:00 am

          1984 to 1990 Labour turned on us.

          Introduced the totally ideological right wing, Neo-liberal unfortunate experiment.

          Funny, when embracing the rabid right wing veiws they did then, there was no concern about re-electability.

          Rather a push to get it done, before voters realized they had been royally, shafted.

          It was such a betrayal that many voted National to get rid of them after only two terms.

          Of course, National doubled down with Richardsons attack on the poor and unemployed, begun by Labour.

      • SPC 15.1.3
        16 December 2019 at 4:56 pm

        Weka – the neo-liberals in the Labour cuacus refused to back left wing leadership of their party foisted on them by their party members. There is no coming back from this.

        This caucus will seek to take back control of the party and impose a centrist policy to be the alternative neo-liberal regime to the Tories in 2022.

        The left have only one choice, form a New Labour Alliance Party, take back the North and Midlands and force Blairites to merge with the LD to survive. N.O.O.

        • The Al1en 15.1.3.1
          16 December 2019 at 5:03 pm

          The current labour party have been under the grip of momentum and unite for two general elections, and they've tanked this last one and the last euro and council votes.

          • SPC 15.1.3.1.1
            16 December 2019 at 5:21 pm

            They did OK in 2017.

            In this last one they ran with a policy not popular with the working class in the Midlands and North and with a leader opposed by most of his own caucus. Voters punish disunity.

            The left have no alternative if they do not want to be undermined or subjugated within Labour – whose own MP's are not of, by and for the working class.

            • The Al1en 15.1.3.1.1.1
              16 December 2019 at 5:25 pm

              A bit arrogant to suggest only working class people come from the north and midlands, and for every punish disunity, I’ll raise you a disliked, weak leadership.
              And as for that disloyalty, it didn’t stop Cameron or May winning with a split party engaging in open warfare.

              • SPC …
                16 December 2019 at 6:53 pm

                Trying to guilt trip me by accusing me of being arrogant?

                That the working class of the Midlands and the North withdrew support from Labour has been the story in the UK media since the election.

                Parties get punished for disloyalty, saying the leader deserved disloyalty – and then should take the blame for the result is downright cynical.

                • The Al1en …
                  16 December 2019 at 7:10 pm

                  So, anytime you want to know about the staunch, working class boroughs of South London, where labour have drawn support for generations, you just give me a holler.

                  The real story however, is why those cosmopolitan, diverse communities in the capital, some poorer than sh1t and rivalling any of those former northern bastions for lack of opportunity, decided to stick with labour and didn't defect to a party using immigration as a divide and conquer weapon to beat the vulnerable?

                  A hint: Deep down they’re not racist as fu*k little Englanders

                  • SPC …
                    16 December 2019 at 7:20 pm

                    Wow, so there is a working class in England outside of the M and N ….

                    If you wanna know why there was less impact in the other areas, its because of reinforcement effect. Barking may have had some UKIP voting in 2015 and for Brexit 2016, but the wider (and more diverse) London community was for Remain – so their connection to the local debate was their class interest not Brexit solidarity. And also the strong youth vote for Labour.

                    Thanks for denigrating me again by assuming I needed the hint. Is this why the real left needs protecting from the urban liberal woke as much as anyone else. Anti-semitic, arrogant needs a hint about not to accuse working class voters of being racists.

                    • The Al1en …
                      16 December 2019 at 7:27 pm

                      With regards to the Brexit angle, I suspect the fact London is so cosmopolitan, the tory tactic of division was negated. Also, as I've mentioned elsewhere about Corbyn's mismanagement of the issue, if he had come out as the leaver he his, instead of trying to keep a foot in each door, he may have held on to some northern seats, but the urban working classes would have deserted him too, though I'm pretty confident not to the anti immigrant party.

                      To your edit: “urban liberal woke” lol
                      Tories voted for Brexit because they’re mainly racist anti immigrant little Englanders. Why do you think those ex labour people are any different now when they’ve voted tory, Ukip or Brexit party, BNP, EDL?

                      Of course not all who switched sides are like that, some just really disliked Corbyn, ultra left policies and inability to manage a piss up in a brewery.

                • The Al1en …
                  16 December 2019 at 7:51 pm

                  That the working class of the Midlands and the North withdrew support from Labour has been the story in the UK media since the election.

                  Sure, as has the dislike for Corbyn amongst former labour voters, but you seem to be ignoring that for some reason, preferring to blame anyone and everyone else instead.

      • adam 15.1.4
        16 December 2019 at 9:24 pm

        As I don't consider liberals to be left, I find your weak analysis just that, weak.

        What moral high ground, I didn't undermine the UK labour party in any way on this site – I didn't attack the former leader like some authors on this site did. Nor have I ever pushed any of the bat shit crazy conspiracy theories which have been commonplace here.

        The reality is the anti-state left and the statist left can't work together – I understand that well. That does not mean I won't point out that you statists are being utterly stupid and/or dishonest.

        The thing I find you lot miss is when a group within the statist left keep stabbing you in the back you keep letting them. It's truly odd.

        Hard to talk unity when one side is bat shit crazy woke, holds a knife and is willing to use it. When the other side is bleeding all over the floor, going just one more compromise – It's a joke.

        Like I said in another post – the reality is we are moving towards eco-fascism. And the liberals are the ones who will make sure that happens. They can't stand working class people having opinions or actually thinking for themselves.

        • weka 15.1.4.1
          18 December 2019 at 1:37 am

          so what's the plan adam? If your position is that the two groups you perceive as critical can't work together, what is the basis of political progress?

          Btw, I'm not talking about unity. My sense is that you've largely missed what I am saying.

          • Ad 15.1.4.1.1
            18 December 2019 at 2:12 am

            I'm just impressed that Adam loathes us in currently close to equal measure.

          • adam 15.1.4.1.2
            18 December 2019 at 1:03 pm

            There is no plan – eco fascism is going to win. Liberals are going to make sure of it.

            You really don't get the criticism do you . My sense is that you completely missed what I was saying.

      • Bill 15.1.5
        16 December 2019 at 9:43 pm

        There is absolutely no way to execute a left wing economic policy if you're operating within a liberal economic framework. UK Labour (before Corbyn) accepted and did not challenge the dominant liberal framework. Like NZ Labour today, UK Labour, in adopting liberal economic ideology had no option but to ditch class in favour of advancing inherently divisive "identity" politics. (Liberalism does not and can not acknowledge class – it's revolves around notions of the individual and has nothing to say about collective experience)

        Moving on.

        The political "normal" of the past 40 years has shifted so far beyond the edges of social democracy and into the liberal sphere, that the term "centrist" makes no sense in relation to speaking of "left".

        And as for "liberal", well obviously, liberal is that step out beyond social democracy into an ideology that denies even society as a really existing thing (there are only individuals and families….and markets).

        Meanwhile, all left political thought of whatever hue or stripe embodies an understanding of class.

        I'll away and leave any centrists or liberals to their thinking caps….

    • SHG 15.2
      17 December 2019 at 2:47 am

      blame the voters, not a broken system

      Exactly, working class voters need to be excluded from voting, they’re idiots

      https://twitter.com/TitaniaMcGrath/status/1205859214360481792

  16. Billy 16
    16 December 2019 at 12:36 pm

    A lot of prominent left wing voices, largely belonging to people whose lifestyles are far from working class, spend a great deal of time mocking, deriding and arguing for the sidelining of men – who, many of the isolated, ignored and put upon are told – form a self-interested lobby group that includes them, within society as a whole.

    So run the pronouncements of the liberal red carpet set who have become so close to the Labour Party and the Prime Minister that one might wonder whether they form a new organ of the state, having the power, as they do, to socially embarrass and needle anyone who dares to challenge power or question the liberal narrative. Ah, but then, they are "activists".

    Such power and influence is typically used to single out an aberrant citizen or character or minor renown who is held up as a symptom of a cultural problem – say, casual racism – that must be gotten rid of. That criticism may include criticism of institutions, but the criticisms are almost always made, often through newspaper columns, by celebrities who have it all and are in very close proximity to power, and often by personal friends of the PM.

    This is what many ordinary men, and women see, I would fathom, when they look at “Labour”. The red carpet friends of the PM lecturing people like them who have screwed up in often rather minor ways, with little sympathy and understanding, while posing as activists.

    It’s one thing to be told off my Helen Kelly, it’s another to be sniffed at by Lizzie Marvelly.

    When was the last time a union boss got a public airing, and in defense of ordinary workers?

    • Billy 16.1
      16 December 2019 at 1:22 pm

      My point is that the public facing "Labour activists" are beautiful, wealthy celebrities who have their guns pointed at ordinary saps not at the rich and powerful, and rarely at institutions. Not only that but they are mocked all the while. Of course they are going to tell you to shove it in exercising the relatively little power they have at the voting booth. Labour’s got the image problem in some quarters and you won’t solve it by slathering on yet more make up and pracing about in high heels at hoity-toity functions talking about kindness when mocking working class men is bread and butter.

      • Billy 16.1.1
        16 December 2019 at 1:50 pm

        Good was always synonymous with noble, noble the noblesse.

        Sorry for my rough, embarrassing contribution. I will get with the program and humbly recognize the moral superiority of my betters, the New Noblesse.

        • Dennis Frank 16.1.1.1
          16 December 2019 at 2:58 pm

          No, don't. They ain't your betters & they don't actually have any moral superiority. Don't allow their pretence to fool you!

          The problem of factionalism on the left is due to lack of motivation to forge common ground. All they really share is dislike of the political right. Not enough to go on – but they've been failing to learn the lesson since the 1970s.

          • Obtrectator 16.1.1.1.1
            16 December 2019 at 9:57 pm

            Make that the 1930s. The factions on the Republican side in the Spanish Civil War took eventual victory over the Nationalists for granted, and fought each other far more ferociously than they ever did Franco’s mob.

  17. Olwyn 17
    16 December 2019 at 2:00 pm

    Successful alliances require some level of shared interest or at least shared concern. For example. the alliance between social liberals and the economic left in the '70's rested on the establishment being understood as both socially and economically conservative. So both groups were able to unite in pushing against the same opposition, sometimes with different ends in mind.

    The neoliberal establishment, by comparison, tacitly accepts social liberalism but is very hostile toward working class demands. The "flexible workforce" is a euphemism for "the powerless workforce." So, one lot is allowed at the table and the other is not, which makes it hard to maintain a good faith, trustworthy alliance. That is why Corbyn (like Cunliffe here, years earlier) ended up getting hobbled by his own party, and lost the trust of working class voters because of it. Of course Brexit played a big part, but also, someone who is hobbled cannot be relied on to follow through on their policies, or even retain their leadership once the dust has settled. Labour politicians were allegedly seen in London celebrating their election loss, since it meant they were at last free of Corbyn.

    As long as liberals fear that real pressure to represent the working class will cost them their place at the table, and the working class are convinced they need real change for things to improve, it is hard to see where shared interests can be established. The electorate itself is similarly divided between those who do fear that change will put what they have at risk, and those whose only hope is change.

    I do not buy into the story that the electorate just didn't take to this or that person; it normally just means that the party and their friends in the media are averse to promoting them.

    • Dennis Frank 17.1
      16 December 2019 at 3:11 pm

      Yes, your penultimate paragraph gets to the crux of the issue. Used to be that a manifesto provided the rationale for change, so everyone could get their heads around the basis for working together. Attention spans are too short for that to work now – nobody would read it.

      Labour is a party consisting of a negligible proportion of labourers, so the traditional basis for identification is non-existent. Hasn't been there most of my life, and I'm 70. So the only way Labour can simultaneously represent affluent middle-class & poor workers is niche-marketing to each separately, via policies tailored to serve both. That ad-hoc strategy only gets Labour into govt when voter disgust with the alternative escalates above a critical threshold.

    • Anne 17.2
      16 December 2019 at 4:37 pm

      I do not buy into the story that the electorate just didn't take to this or that person; it normally just means that the party and their friends in the media are averse to promoting them.

      Spot on. They did it to Corbyn and went one step further… they politically assassinated him. And yes, they did it to Cunliffe too and I haven't forgotten who 'they' were.

      Nice to see you Olwyn. Your comments are always worth reading twice. 🙂

    • Stuart Munro. 17.3
      16 December 2019 at 7:59 pm

      Well put.

  18. SPC 18
    16 December 2019 at 4:28 pm

    How, why did those people vote Tory …

    People first voted for UKIP to realise a referendum, then for Brexit. Then they watch Labour obstruct May's Brexit and support continued links to the customs union and single market as their preferred negotiation position.

    Labour offered in government to negotiate such a deal and then propose it to the people in a referendum. Labour voters who wanted Brexit now simply short circuited that by preventing Labour winning the election.

    One thing though – Labour still got more votes than in 2010 (just beat LD for second) and 2015 (UKIP 12%) .

    • The Al1en 18.1
      16 December 2019 at 4:59 pm

      Labour in 2010 were 6% ahead of the lib dems and 7% behind the cons, and they had 55 more mps than they have now.

      In 2015 they were on 30.4%, 6.4% behind the tories, and 18% clear of third place, and Ed ended up with 29 seats more than Corbyn.

  19. SPC 19
    16 December 2019 at 4:50 pm

    I wonder how many of those who said leadership were influenced by Labour MP's who basically said he was not the choice of our caucus and we do not want him as leader so do not vote for the party so we can get rid of him and all his lefties with him.

    Tom Watson (leader of the caucus resistance) is now trying to claim it was the left wing manifesto that was the problem …

  20. Exkiwiforces 20
    16 December 2019 at 5:55 pm

    This may hurt your feelings for those on the Woke Left.

    To all you latte soy drinking tofu eating over educated middle class Muppets etc etc. This what happens when you Insult, ignored the working-class and its values with your airiy fairy woke left B/S.

    Labour used to stand for the train driver, the storeman/ storeperson, the Hospital worker, the shop assistants, manual worker and, those of the lower ranks/ deck of the 1st responders and the of Military etc etc, and Labour now stands for the middle class issues that excite the inner city woke left.

    We the working-class gave the woke left of the party a punishment for its arrogance on Brexit. We the working-class voted for Brexit and we voted to leave, but we were treated with such disdain from the party that our forebearers established many moons ago which were based on good old fashion Methodist, Presbyterian and Quaker values.

    “You want to leave?

    No, you must be stupid.

    And so, we’re are going to ignore you.

    Or else, we’re going to ask you to again, until you give us the result we want.

    The vote we think is best for you actually”.

    Well, we have news for you woke left clowns and we think its bloody rude, to ask for public what they want and then tell them they are stupid for making their choice.

    These days Labour stands for issues that truly seem to excite the woke left these days are fringe issues. Unlike the issues that matter to us working-class, which are jobs with good conditions, with reasonable hours and holiday pay etc. But todays Labour Party stands for trivial and divisive things.

    And remember we the working-class fought bloody hard for the right to vote. We aren’t about to let it be trashed by over-educated tossers in the newly PC Woke Left Labour Party. This revolt was coming weather its was National/ Torrie or the Woke Left PC Labour/ Green, we are voting to protect our democracy from the assaults of an out of touch elite.

    I was born with red socks and read underwear.

    Look up my great great Grandfather Frank Henry Sherman or my,

    2x or 3x Great Uncle Aneurin Bevan

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aneurin_Bevan

    It’s shame my Great Grand Father got his name trashed by the likes of McLagan and his fellow travellers, when he stood up to McLagan on a number of issues before he resigned from the Miners Union in Blackball, before his final show down with McLagan and co in Blackball. My Great Grandfather was probably would’ve been one of the greatness Trade Unionists that NZ would’ve had, hadn’t his name been trashed by the likes of McLagan and his fellow travellers.

    I vote Labour and my list vote goes to NZF to keep you woke left Muppets in check.

    • SPC 20.1
      16 December 2019 at 6:22 pm

      Just one thing, it was the of by and for the middle class "urban liberal" centrists in Labour, not the left, behind Labour's policy of new referendum on Brexit. And they intend to use this result to get rid of the left and retake control of the leadership of the party.

      I find it interesting that the term left and urban liberal woke get conflated, as they are not synonymous. That's the propaganda of the media of the Christian conservative capitalist Republican and Christian capitalist Tory (the God, mammon and imperial fortresses Atlantic brotherhood) to label political opponents as the urban liberal/liberal left/UnAmerican fellow traveller/woke liberal left/woke left.

      I sure your disdain for urban liberals who manage the Blairite/Clark/Ardern centrist regime, while claiming to represent the underclass (they fight just as hard as the right to keep the left out of power – as the UK now demonstrates). But I vote Greens and otherwise would advocate for a revival of the New Labour/Alliance (many of the gains of 1999-2008 were because of them).

      • Bill 20.1.1
        16 December 2019 at 9:10 pm

        Left ain't 'woke'. Ever. 'Woke' is a subjugation of class under a thousand and one warring identities (and tofu).

        • Stuart Munro. 20.1.1.1
          17 December 2019 at 7:39 am

          You're right of course – but tofu is different in different contexts.

          In Korea, tofu is proletarian and authentic, the product of the hardworking rural poor. Freshly prepared it really is something nice to eat – rather than being an unpalatable metaphor for liberal guilt

    • RedLogix 20.2
      16 December 2019 at 6:24 pm

      I've had many an ugly exchange with the so called 'woke' left over the years. Long before I even heard the word. But I always respected their idealism; wounded as it often is.

      My firm view is that we are all broken in some way; now we need each other more than ever. Yes we will always contend with each other; that is necessary. But as a species we are now entering our time of adulthood and become responsible as stewards of all life.

      • Anne 20.2.1
        16 December 2019 at 6:42 pm

        I still haven't properly figured out who the "woke" left are supposed to be. Are they a reincarnation of the Blairites and their passengers or does it go deeper than that?

        Isn't it better to judge someone on their honesty and decency no matter whereabouts on the scale they may fall – within reason?

        Whatever it is a horrible expression and I refuse to use it.

        • SPC 20.2.1.1
          16 December 2019 at 7:03 pm

          It's a term used by urban liberals. Out and proud as woke. PC is probably the best synonym. Now used by their critics who do not like the PC – men attacked by feminists, feminists attacked by gender activists.

          There is a long history to it, the human rights activists and civil libertarians who campaigns for equal rights for minorities against privilege – each expansion of the cause mobilised conservative resistance – negative reaction to the activists. Then critics expand their meaning of the term to all those to their liberal left they do not like.

        • Nic the NZer 20.2.1.2
          16 December 2019 at 7:29 pm

          The trouble is that this refers to multiple groups. I don't think woke needs to be turned into an ugly word as there are people who have a legitimate interest or self interest in such issues.

          The problem group (as far as I see) only care about being woke when it suites their agenda and (I think) have no real interest in following through.

        • gsays 20.2.1.3
          16 December 2019 at 8:20 pm

          Hi Anne, Kim Hill interviewed this chap on RNZ on Saturday.

          He is polarizing but a good communicator.

          https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/saturday/audio/2018726945/douglas-murray-the-groupthink-tyranny-of-woke

          He may explain a few of the questions you have.

          • pat 20.2.1.3.1
            16 December 2019 at 9:27 pm

            Well that was interesting…..expect his twitter feed is busy

            • gsays 20.2.1.3.1.1
              17 December 2019 at 7:23 am

              ..interesting…

              Isn't that what one says when fearful of offending?

              A lot of what he said resonated with me, some of it I would distance myself from (especially in mixed company).

              Nowadays someone can grab a quote from Douglas Murray that is controversial or challenging and expect that to discredit everything about him.

              In the context of the U.K. election, this occurred with Corbyn: a la anti-semitism.

              Part of the direction we are headed as a society, unfortunately,

              A Century of the Self, while ostensibly about the rise of marketing and consumerism, helps to explain this.

              • pat …
                17 December 2019 at 8:17 am

                "Isn't that what one says when fearful of offending?"

                now that highlights the the issue….when I say 'interesting' I mean interesting…you know, as in arousing curiosity and a desire to know more.

                Sometimes an eggplant is just an eggplant

        • Psycho Milt 20.2.1.4
          16 December 2019 at 9:37 pm

          I still haven't properly figured out who the "woke" left are supposed to be.

          Oh, no need to over-think it – "woke" left is just a euphemism for "those people on the left I don't like." There's no complicated exegesis waiting to be revealed.

          • SHG 20.2.1.4.1
            17 December 2019 at 2:31 am

            Woke is the label that applies to you if you think that having a 3rd “X” sex checkbox on passports is an issue that people need to be lectured about in the leadup to a national election.

            • Psycho Milt 20.2.1.4.1.1
              17 December 2019 at 5:45 am

              Oh, for sure there's often good reason to dislike the people involved – don't get me started on the people who think that sexual reproduction involves a "spectrum" of sexes.

          • Sanctuary 20.2.1.4.2
            17 December 2019 at 7:40 am

            There is a bit more to it than that. Olwyn made a fabulous post here yesterday (https://thestandard.org.nz/listening-to-left-wing-dissent/#comment-1673728) pointing out the alliance between social liberals and the working class that was possible when the ruling elites were both socially and economically conservative has collapsed under neoliberalism, which has absorbed the social liberals in the economic ruling class.

            "Woke" left is therefore often a term used for self-absorbed social media autocrats who insist on complete adherence to their socially liberal identity politics proscription whilst not representing any constituency beyond their bathroom mirror. They distract by demanding policy and focus be exclusively on whatever social issue obsesses them rather than on economic or class issues.

            • Anne 20.2.1.4.2.1
              17 December 2019 at 11:42 am

              "Woke" left is………… a term used for self-absorbed social media autocrats who insist on complete adherence to their socially liberal identity politics proscription whilst not representing any constituency beyond their bathroom mirror.

              Oh god, I've met those types. 😯 They have been around, in one disguise or another, for decades.

        • Dennis Frank 20.2.1.5
          16 December 2019 at 10:00 pm

          Google: Woke as a political term refers to an awareness of issues concerning social and racial justice. It is derived from the African-American Vernacular English expression "stay woke", whose grammatical aspect refers to a continuing awareness of these issues.

          They could go further & point out that the next stage after continuing awareness is obsession. Those that reach it exhibit a syndrome I call `collective narcissism'. As in `my group is the most important'.

          Martyn Bradbury takes this view: "For me as a class leftist, the delineation of power in society is not woke intersectionaism [sic], or skin colour, or gender, or sexual identity, it is the 1% wealthiest with their 9% enablers vs the 90% of the rest of us. Identity Politics, while an important personal journey on how the individual comes to politics, can’t be a recruitment tool to get to 51% democratic majority because if your starting point as a woke activist is that every male is a rapist, every white person a racist, anyone arguing for free speech a Nazi and anyone questioning 1% Trans mantra a homophobe, you aren’t about Broad Church politics, you are about a Pure Temple politics where exclusion is the new inclusion."

          So far, so accurate. "The Right looks for recruits to join them, the Left look for traitors to de-platform, call out and cancel. Woke Left has all the nuance of the Cultural Revolution." Yep. [https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2019/12/14/the-modern-rule-of-politics-post-corbyn-woke-social-media-is-death-and-white-males-quite-like-their-privilege-thanks/]

          "The real danger of identity politics over class politics, as we have seen in the UK election and with Trump, is that when white poor men start seeing themselves not as a class but as an identity, the Right win. In the NZ context that means 500 retweets by Wellington Twitteratti = alienation not winning. If it’s popular on The Spinoff, it’s poison at the ballot box and if Action Station have a petition on it, avoid it like the fucking plague."

          As someone who helped originate Action Station after the gfc, who has belonged as a supporter ever since, I'm not inclined to take offense. Their messaging is crass much of the time, precious even when not crass, and they have a bad case of collective narcissism. But I still sign many of the petitions they send out, and toss them a few dollars now & then. Woke? Definitely. Eyes often a-rolling in result. But oldies ought to support young idealist do-gooders, eh?

          • Anne 20.2.1.5.1
            16 December 2019 at 11:16 pm

            Thanks one and all. 🙂

            I suspect there's an element of truth in what PM says. 😉

            And being old and cynical too, I have sympathy with Dennis Frank's view. 😈

            Collective narcissism sounds about right in some cases at least.

          • Billy 20.2.1.5.2
            17 December 2019 at 7:11 am

            How did you help originate ActionStation? I thought it came out of the Greens?

            • Sacha 20.2.1.5.2.1
              17 December 2019 at 7:23 am

              Dennis also came out of the Greens. 🙂

              • Billy …
                17 December 2019 at 7:28 am

                They are impressively organized but need to decouple themselves from some of their very sinister funders and infrastructure providers. DNC included… Would have no issue with a fully local iteration – well, I’d rather they be fully local and not an iteration of anything.

                Dennis Frank, to what extent were the originators of ActionStation knowledgeable about its funding arrangements and did you also take many trips to Washington like the rest of them?

                • Dennis Frank …
                  17 December 2019 at 10:40 am

                  I've no idea about funding or any trips to Washington since Bill & I had disengaged from the establishment process by then. I'm intrigued!

                  Is involvement with DNC just a rumour or do you have inside word on that? Hard to imagine the Dems being that organised. I'm reminded of the famous Will Rogers quote: "I don't belong to an organized political party. I'm a Democrat."

                  • Sacha …
                    17 December 2019 at 11:14 am

                    The Dem campaign Howard Dean led developed some campaign volunteer and donation organising software that was later shared freely with any organisations that wanted it.

                    Not sure how that fits with whatever ActionStation are using (or with any of the dark influences hinted at by one commenter here) but it would make no sense to reinvent the wheel locally.

                    The action coordinated on top of that platform is where the value lies. ActionStation has done great work giving younger citizens confidence that there are ways to make a difference beyond traditional political parties.

                  • Billy …
                    17 December 2019 at 11:43 am

                    Dennis, we should have fair trade coffee. You’re going to want to be sitting down.

                    • Dennis Frank …
                      17 December 2019 at 12:19 pm

                      smiley I'm provincial nowadays – retired to New Plymouth, where I was born & raised. Incidentally, Sacha makes a good point re the actions created by the platform & how they enable & empower young activists. That is indeed the upside, and has been a frequent feel-good factor for me in recent times – so all the developmental work years ago was worth the effort!

            • Dennis Frank 20.2.1.5.2.2
              17 December 2019 at 10:28 am

              It started with a conversation I had with Bill Watson the year he was NZ coordinator of Sea Shepherd. Bill said Aotearoa ought to have a petition site like Get Up in Australia. So we got together with a few others in a Ponsonby pub (the one on College Hill) and brainstormed it over a few beers.

              Bill wrote to the folk who operated Get Up but got no response. I'd suggested to the group we start an alternative political movement instead. Petitioners are mere supplicants & I'd rather operate from a position of strength. That was due to Bill having a Masters degree in psychology but me being the one who actually does deep psychology.

              Almost two years later Bill got an email response from Get Up, to our considerable surprise, apologising for the delay but they'd been so busy. Agreeing to our using their format, so we had our fourth or fifth group meeting and decided to call our version Stand Up (a la Bob Marley). A Sea Shepherd volunteer named Matt (part of our group) volunteered to write the code for the website. About a year later he was part-way through developing that in his spare time and we heard of a Wellington group with a similar idea. Bill established liaison with the lawyer Joe Cederwall, who advised they could finish the software development faster than Matt, so our group agreed to pass the project along to their group.

              I've still got the Stand Up folder somewhere – it's primarily the Get Up design they sent us, about 40 pages. Joe told us there were likely to be copyright problems with the name since a group here was already using it, so the young woman who had run an election campaign successfully for the Greens and subsequently got the job of running the petition site organised a poll for a new name and Action Station got chosen.

              Incidentally, none of this history appears on the capsule story on their website. That would be because young folk mostly don't do history. Reinventing the wheel is much more fun…

              • Billy …
                17 December 2019 at 10:32 am

                Fascinating stuff, genuinely. What role did Ben Brandzel play or did he come later? Via Cederwall? Who provided the initial funding?

                You should write a post about it. If anything, it will go towards the fact that the left is much more transparent around political fundraising / donations

                • Dennis Frank …
                  17 December 2019 at 10:57 am

                  Don't know that name, so he may have been part of the Wellington group. I suppose those people must have got funding somewhere to get the website up & running, but our group was entirely voluntary. Matt did quite a lot of software writing for free, but that's just traditional activism – been the driver of progress here since the late 1960s.

                  I've written all I can contribute, Billy. Transparency is relative, and the Greens usually do it okay. I do have experience to the contrary – learnt that some activists put partisanship ahead of ethics. So I trust leftist Greens as far as I can kick them. I reported the rule-breaking to the leadership back in '94, took a year to get an apology out of them, and by then had left in disgust. I'd given them the evidence and there was no excuse. I was Convenor of the Standing Orders Committee. It's not in my nature to let a stalinist get away with it.

                  • Billy …
                    17 December 2019 at 11:33 am

                    Well you must extremely disturbed to see one of your babies line up with NED and the CIA. But well-funded now, of course.

          • Billy 20.2.1.5.3
            17 December 2019 at 7:17 am

            "when white poor men start seeing themselves not as a class but as an identity, the Right win."

            No-brainer, really. Deeply stupid move.

            It’s extraordinary that the group of people who seem to be attempting to elevate offensive speech to the level of capital crime can’t see the effect of their speech on the traditional Labour base and if they do see it adjust their behaviour accordingly. Identity politics is an apocalyptic ideology for those that hold it.

        • Billy 20.2.1.6
          17 December 2019 at 12:44 pm

          Evidently they're a bit like the abstract expressionists.

    • millsy 20.3
      16 December 2019 at 8:15 pm

      Nye Bevan would be regarded as a Corbynista now. So would Atlee, and maybe even Harold Wilson and Callaghan. Even Gaitskell and Crosland would be too left for the Blairites.

      People dont seem to realise how right wing the Blairites are, when you match up their political views and policy enactments with previous Labour governments and even some Tory ones. Alan Johnson, David Blunkett, Jack Straw, Harriet Hartman, Ruth Kelly, Jaqcui Smith, Peter Mandelson could have all slotted into any post WW2 Tory cabinet.

      Im not trying to make any points here, I am just stating a fact.

      • Exkiwiforces 20.3.1
        16 December 2019 at 8:39 pm

        You are not wrong there my old mate Millsy, I'm reading a book called Blair and his Generals. What an utter muppet Blair and his fellow travellers are IRT to the Iraq and the Gan were. As one General said about the "Blairites on Iraq and Gan War, they were trying to go to a rich mans war with rich mans ideal's, but fighting a rich mans war and ideals on a poor mans wages. "

        It really sums up the C**T and his fellow travellers IRT to the conduct of the both Wars and the aftermath on both regions and on home front aka us vets.

        Has the morals of sewage rat banker.

        Today's Labour Party MP's (UK, Oz and NZ) wouldn't know how dig hole to save themselves, let a lone be put in charge of putting up a tent and boiling the billy/ chuffer for a cup of tea.

        PS.
        “Atlee, and maybe even Harold Wilson and Callaghan. Even Gaitskell and Crosland”

        Some good honest men back in their day, but got knock over with events that left them in a prickle.

    • Billy 20.4
      17 December 2019 at 6:58 am

      Excellent comment.

      Uncouth working class white men are treated as the enemy by social liberals and they hate you for it. Many of them won't vote for Labour as a result of that cultural and political ear bashing.

      Telling everyone to identify with their race and gender not their class was the dumbest idea the left ever had. Apart from demonizing the base it allows a lot of people off scott free for having a drop of exotic blood or for being a bit kinky and liking a crowded bed, leaving the rest of us in the absurd position of being moralized to by a bunch of bisexual horndog celebrity millionaires who think activism is going to events and telling each other how their lived personal experiences have made the world a better place.

  21. SPC 21
    16 December 2019 at 6:41 pm

    It's actually a case of the left wing of the UK Labour Party having to hear and obey their real class and political enemies – who want to take back control of the Labour Party.

    1. The caucus rejects the party members foisting on them left wing leadership

    2. They openly reject a left winger as their leader and invite electoral punishment for their disunity, so they can take back control of the party from the left wing membership.

    The Blairites (basically the educated middle class outside of the elite establishment – Eton-Balliol Oxford etc) have only the Labour Party as their route to power, which is why they took over the Labour Party post Thatcher to bed in the neo-liberal regime (the SD merger with the LD having failed).

    Here we had at least the New Labour/Alliance Party resistance and or the Green Party, this was the UK left's last stand. Soon, if they are to survive at all as a political force (Tom Watson is now trying to blame the left wing manifesto for the loss) they may well have to form their own party (some irony given they have strong support from the party members and the young – the latter is cause for optimism once they strike out on their own and offer a united left wing caucus to voters).

    • Sanctuary 21.1
      17 December 2019 at 7:31 am

      The problem for the Labour neoliberal right and it's cheerleaders in the Guardian is that they were ferociously pro-Remain, a stance that is now understood to have been a big contributor to the catastrophic losses in northern England. In other words, they were demonstrably wrong on the premise of their main platform and they have long stood proudly convicted of gross disloyalty to Corbyn to boot.

      But like I have said, the fact the Rebecca Long-Bailey and Angela Rayner are the most like next leadership duo for Labour indicates the left has now won the battle against the PLP Blairites, who have now mostly either lost their seats, defected and lost their seats, or resigned and left politics before they lost their seats.

  22. David Mac 22
    16 December 2019 at 8:08 pm

    The left are feeling rudderless because the power comes from the collective us. The rise of platforms for me to express what is important to me has diluted the power of the collective and provided attractive avenues for me to focus on me rather than us. These me times do nothing to fertilise an all encompassing give a damn about people and Earth.

    We see it here. Those dumping on Pharmac the hardest are in need of specific drugs – me thinking. Those that call the loudest for a rise in benefits are dependent on one.

    I'm not judging them, they're swept up in the unavoidable times, me too. The left is becoming a vehicle for me to promote me and my personal concerns, to be strong it needs to be about us.

    • Billy 23.1
      17 December 2019 at 7:26 am

      We need total transparency around National Party and NZ First donations but we also need total transparency around the assholes funding ID politics and perverting the left like this villain-haired chap above.

  24. Bill 24
    16 December 2019 at 9:04 pm

    Here's tuppensworth.

    Putting aside the endless vilification from pop media….

    Said at the time – Corbyn should have sought a working relationship with the SNP when he was first elected leader. (Labour had one MP in Scotland at the time, but Corbyn kept right on with the "Tartan Tory" attack lines against all available evidence and common sense)

    Jon Lansman should never have been allowed to head up Momentum and fold the movement into the Labour Party. (Movements are not movements if they are defined by political parties)

    Corbyn should have front footed on the b/s claims of anti-Semitisism

    Labour should have maintained their 2017 Brexit position

    On the bright side – Johnson's possibly strapped himself and the Tory Party into a suicide vest.

    • Cantabrian 24.1
      16 December 2019 at 11:18 pm

      Bill, I have to agree with you on most points. However, Corbyn had too much baggage to take into the election as leader. his previous stances over the IRA, Palestine and the like made him unelectable by the British centrists (particularly the working class brexiteers in the northeast). Admit it Corbynites he was toxic to the electorate and there is no escaping the fact. Failure to engage with the SNP displays the arrogance of the Labour leadership as well.

      Add to that the disgraceful treatment of TomWatson and you have the reasons for a calamitous defeat.

  25. Craig H 25
    16 December 2019 at 9:39 pm

    Looking at the vote talleys, it looks like some Labour brexiteers voted Tory and Brexit Party, and some of the Labour and Tory remainers voted Liberal Democrats.

  26. Sanctuary 26
    17 December 2019 at 7:06 am

    It is very depressing reading the reaction of the ultras in Labour.

    They are playing perfectly the role of being the ancien regime of political Bourbons in the Labour party – "Nobody has been corrected; no one has known to forget, nor yet to learn anything."

    Funnily enough though, the attacks from the extreme centrists is now almost all coming from outside Labour, ex-Blairites, the neoliberal press and bitter ex-members.

    But the fact that the immediate front runner to replace Corbyn is Rebecca Long-Bailey indicates that the left has now won the argument.

  27. Adrian Thornton 27
    17 December 2019 at 9:04 am

    Weka I am glad you put the.. btw, those that want to run a 'I know the single cause' line…etc, that polls says it all.

    The main reasons people did not vote Labour
    — The leadership (43%)

    Let's stop all this bullshit navel gazing and look at the facts, Corbyn/Labour were absolutely fucked over by a UK media war on a progressive Left project that scared the shit out of them, it was incessant and unrelenting for three years, day in day out, week after week, month after month, wholly negative corrosive and ultimately…it worked, and as I have said before, most damaging from the so called 'left media', which has exposed itself as our #1 enemy in this war.

    Seriously, can anyone here tell me any politician that could have won an election after three years of negative press from all sides on this industrial scale?

    The main reasons people did not vote Labour, Brexit 17%, so sure Labour/Corbyn should have been clearer earlier on this, but that being said, their plan in the end was actually a very good one…but as those polls show, that wasn't the primary reason.

    The take away here for anyone on the progressive, transformative Left is that we are in a war of ideologies with the centre (left) and the Right, ie; the establishment, and they have shown us quite clearly in the UK that they will work together to stop the real Left from gaining any foot hold…at any cost.

    Jeremy Corbyn is the most smeared politician in history

    In the UK, one politician has been subject to the longest continuous smear campaign in UK history, and we are all influenced by it. Over 75 per cent of Jeremy Corbyn media coverage factually misrepresents him

    https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/opinion/jeremy-corbyn-is-the-most-smeared-politician-in-history/18/07/

    I didn't get into this because I thought about winning, I got into this because I know we are on the right side, the only side, so my advice (which is probably not wanted) is to stop belly aching and second guessing yourselves, and get out there and fight harder.

    Turn Labour left!

    • The Al1en 27.1
      17 December 2019 at 9:45 am

      Corbyn/Labour were absolutely fucked over by a UK media war

      So you're saying people like you and me can read, listen and watch the tory media and not get brainwashed by it, but voters in the midlands and the north of England can't.

  28. Colin 28
    17 December 2019 at 9:07 am

    Your right Cantabrian, some on this site hold Corbyn as some sort of Messiah for the extreme Left, apart from his known Anti Semitism which many here blame on a conspiracy by the Media, he is also a lover of Hamas & other similar groups worldwide. I have a friend who was undercover in Ireland 1974 who witnessed Corbyn among a big group in a hall, & when the IRA detonated Bombs in Birmingham Pubs ,Cheers & Celebrations were given by all. The end result was 21 KILLED. 182. INJURED, not a bad result Comrades.

    • greywarshark 28.1
      17 December 2019 at 12:44 pm

      Colin Your comment is unpleasant to read.

      But I saw a letter in the paper with a quote that adds something positive for Corbyn. But it was in The Guardian only on December 11, so a bit late for informing and shining truth on any dark thoughts about Corbyn and anti-Semitism. This from The Press Tuesday, 17 Dec 29019 page 13.

      "we, Jewish members of his constituency, have known him for 30 years. We know him well enough to know there is no foundation to the accusation that Corbtyn is anti-Semitic. In a party of 500,000 members there will be anti-Semites and they must be dealt with. But we can assure Jewish voters that they are safe voting Labour"…(Guardian letter, Dec 11).

      signed by Donna Miles-Mojab, Merivale

      • Nic the NZer 28.1.1
        17 December 2019 at 7:50 pm

        I get the feeling Colin doesn't actually have any experiences involving Corbyn to share. Other than the hearsay which implies that UK state spies have been monitoring him since the 70s.

  29. pat 29
    17 December 2019 at 8:04 pm

    If Daron Acemoglu is correct then 'the Left" can reorganise till the cows come to no effect….until faith in institutions is restored and mutual respect returns (the social contract) then our democracies will fail….and the road there is engagement.

    Worth a listen

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2018727300/democracy-on-a-tightrope