Nats’ demolition derby

Written By: - Date published: 5:20 pm, November 18th, 2013 - 107 comments
Categories: capitalism, climate change, david cunliffe, disaster, greens, labour, Mining, peak oil, privatisation, referendum, russel norman, sustainability - Tags:

John Key’s government is going full tilt at dismantling everything of value in NZ, and selling as much as possible to the overseas investors with money to burn.  It’s the government of

Drill it:

Although Anadarko is making a cat and mouse game of it, by not turning up as expected to a mining site:

The Oil Free Seas Flotilla have successfully defended the sea above the site where oil giant Anadarko intends to start drilling.

Anadarko have so far failed to turn up at the site, despite an official ‘notice to mariners’ stating that they could have started drilling operations several days ago.

Land Information New Zealand Notices to Mariners Edition 23, dated 8 November says that ‘On or about 15 November 2013 until 14 February 2014 drilling operations will be performed by drillship Noble Bob Douglas’.

The drill site is over 100 nautical miles off the west coast of New Zealand, and in waters around a kilometer and a half deep.

The Oil Free Seas Flotilla is made up of six boats. They were cheered off by hundreds of New Zealanders from various ports earlier this week.

They are continuing to defend the site from the Noble Bob Douglas drilling ship, which has not yet been tested to drill at these depths.

Mine it:

And when the mines don’t make a profit for the owners, and/or disaster strikes, it’s the workers who pay and the government protects the business and mining interests.  David Cunliffe said last week, ‘No ifs or buts, the government should pay miners‘ families.

“A report into the mine explosion found systemic failures by several government departments contributed to the deaths of the 29 miners.

“Two of the shareholders in Pike River Coal were also Crown agencies – ACC and the New Zealand Superannuation Fund.

“There is nothing stopping the Prime Minister making a couple of quick phone calls to the Chairs of those boards and setting expectations about a pay-out in some shape or form.

“He should also be calling other significant shareholders and telling them in no uncertain terms to fulfil their moral obligations.

“If Mr Key can’t organise his Government to honour the lives of the dead miners then he does not deserve to be Prime Minister,” David Cunliffe said.

Greenpeace says, climate change – oil drilling is not a solution:

Faced with increasing restraints on access to the easy oil, companies are pushing in to areas previously considered too inaccessible, expensive or too risky to exploit. And this means going to greater and greater extremes to squeeze the last drops of oil from the earth – scraping the barrel in the tar sands of Canada, potentially violating the fragile ecosystems of the Arctic and now the pristine coastlines of New Zealand

They have a map showing the

current and proposed areas of oil exploration, drilling, and coal mining, and the climate-changing potential of those coal deposits.

 

oil-map-big greenpeace

 

Sell it:  first the power companies, then Air NZ:

Russel Norman says:

National has given favoured institutions the inside track to buying Air New Zealand shares while giving up on its promise that so-called ‘mum and dad’ investors would be the priority in its asset sales,

[…]

“There will be no offering to the public, making a lie of National’s claim that the sales are about creating widespread public ownership. Brokers have been clear that they expect the shares will go to institutions, not so-called ‘mum and dad’ investors.

“Just 2% of the public bought shares in Mighty River, only 1% bought into Meridian, and, for Air New Zealand, that figure will be 0%.

“This is a cynical attempt to flog off an asset to big institutions just before Kiwis get to have their say on asset sales. It is an insult to the 327,000 Kiwis who put their names to the petition that triggered the referendum and the vast majority of New Zealanders who oppose asset sales,” said Dr Norman.

What next in this trail of destruction of everything good for Kiwis, and fire sales of all that should have been retained to ensure a better future for all who live in NZ?

Norman mentioned the referendum – your voting papers will be in your mailbox soon. Information about the referendum here:

Voting in the Citizens Initiated Referendum takes place by post between 22 November and 13 December.

The question is:

“Do you support the Government selling up to 49% of Meridian Energy, Mighty River Power, Genesis Power, Solid Energy and Air New Zealand?”

 

Press release from the Electoral Commission today:

Over three million voting papers will arrive in letterboxes around New Zealand from this Friday as the citizens initiated referendum gets underway.

Information about voting at the last 2 links above.

107 comments on “Nats’ demolition derby ”

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  1. Paul 1
    18 November 2013 at 5:23 pm

    Fitting music for your post.

  2. Phil 2
    18 November 2013 at 5:26 pm

    Demockary as we know it has clearly failed, here in NZ and around the world. We need to find a new way, globally. But NZ must act quickly, before Key heads off to Mars. 😉

    • King Kong 2.1
      19 November 2013 at 12:19 pm

      Top notch. We have a lament to the end of democracy in NZ so early in the thread. All we need now is a reference to the failed dogma of neo liberalism, a claim that National is only doing xyz to line the pockets of its shadowy backers and a biblical style reference to the awesomeness of David Cunliffe and we will have got a full house in “Standard cliché bingo”

      • karol 2.1.1
        19 November 2013 at 12:35 pm

        The double speak of some right wingers is a wonder to behold. You are attempting all the right wing commenters spin lines. No mentions of Cunliffe lately by many of us, and many have some criticisms of him.

        • Tracey 2.1.1.1
          19 November 2013 at 1:01 pm

          You’re really John Key aren’t you and this is classic transference. Have you conveniently forgotten the “mum and dad” part of the mandate?

      • One Anonymous Knucklehead 2.1.2
        19 November 2013 at 1:04 pm

        That’s how you guys do it isn’t it? Establish a narrative and then repeat it. The beauty of this narrative is that it has so much evidence to support it, from The Hollow Men to Simon Lusk’s recent little brain explosion.

  3. infused 3
    18 November 2013 at 5:32 pm

    Did John Key ever say Air NZ would be open to ‘mum and dad’ investors? Who the hell would want to invest in that anyway?

  4. chris73 4
    18 November 2013 at 5:53 pm

    Drill it, mine it, sell it…and thats why National will be returned to power

  5. David H 5
    18 November 2013 at 6:00 pm

    And how many people are going to get the voting papers and just not bother, because the thieves have sold everything thats not nailed down thats of value.

    • chris73 5.1
      18 November 2013 at 6:15 pm

      Well no not really I mean NZ still own a controlling share in all of the assets that National have sold (unlike Labour of course which sold 100% of the assets) but then thats not really the point you’re trying to make is it…

      • QoT 5.1.1
        18 November 2013 at 8:12 pm

        And who was Minister of Finance when that happened, and which political party did he go on to form, and has that party now been hollowed out for a meat-suit by National?

        • chris73 5.1.1.1
          19 November 2013 at 7:14 am

          Was it Phil Goff who was supportive of this and then went onto lead the party and still won’t give up his seat?

          No sorry it was someone else wasn’t it, my bad

          (Subtle enough?)

          • Paul 5.1.1.1.1
            19 November 2013 at 7:28 am

            Phil goff was part of the clique who betrayed Labours principles. You won’t find many people on this site defending the actions of his treacherous crew.

            • felix 5.1.1.1.1.1
              19 November 2013 at 12:32 pm

              Sure you will. For example chris73, BM, King Kong, whatever Gosman calls himself this week, Matthew Hooten, Jason Ede in his various guises etc etc

          • QoT 5.1.1.1.2
            19 November 2013 at 6:31 pm

            And that’s why Phil Goff won the 2008 election, because that policy was so popular. *sage nod*

            • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 5.1.1.1.2.1
              19 November 2013 at 6:33 pm

              What really held him back in 2008 was that we wasn’t the fucking leader.

              • Arfamo …
                19 November 2013 at 6:36 pm

                Bullshit. The motorbike he turned up to their conference on was just too big for him and everyone could see that. It was what finally did him in.

      • Tracey 5.1.2
        19 November 2013 at 1:03 pm

        er, not enough to prevent minority shareholder rights and Key doesnt believe in interfering with the Board, so yes, it’s as good as gone as far as any influence goes.

    • Rosie 5.2
      19 November 2013 at 9:33 am

      Hi David H. Yesterday on Open Mike Weka raised that very issue. I think it’s a valid concern that people will be dis spirited and not bother with participating in the referendum, and I think it’s a bit of a worry. I know I’m going to hear that line from my family and friends and then this morning on the radio, to my horror because their message is often anti govt, the DJ was agreeing with a caller who was saying exactly that, whats the point. I sent in an email response to the station. This is the content of it.

      “I’m starting to hear the “Why bother participating in the Asset sales referendum, they’re not going to listen and it’s non binding anyway”. line. The reason we need to bother is that if we don’t its shows Shonkey and his government that they have won and they will say “see, told you so, NZer’s don’t care” all said with that smug grin on his goofy face. Wouldn’t you rather wipe that smirk off his face with a loud and resounding NO! from the entire country? The results of the referendum need to demonstrate to key that he can’t go on with the lie “we were voted in with a mandate to sell assets”.

      The referendum is one way that we can formalise our disapproval. A healthy NO response is one way that Key will get the message that his days are numbered.

  6. TightyRighty 6
    18 November 2013 at 6:08 pm

    Well if there is enough of a response davidh then it’ll give labgreen a policy plank at the election won’t it? Nationalise everything. What a policy

    • karol 6.1
      18 November 2013 at 6:31 pm

      I’d go with, “Don’t trust NActUF/Cons/Maori to act in the nest interest of NZ and NZers.”

      They know their asset sales are unpopular. Hence the rush to put things on the block before the referendum

      Charlatans!

  7. photonz 7
    18 November 2013 at 6:11 pm

    The left also want to drill it.

    They still want to fill their car up, so they want some other person, in some other place, to take all the risks for drilling the fuel that they use.

    The left also want to mine it.

    They still want tvs and cars and computers, so they want some other person, in some other place, to take all the risks for mining so the products they want can be made.

    The left are happy to sell assets as well.

    But it’s only when National sell that they cry crocodile tears.

    When Labour sold Spring Creek mine, not a whisper of protest.

    When Labour (82% shareholder of Air NZ) sold down ( around $100 million to 76%), not a whisper of protest.

    Labour wants the assets to be kept because of the good dividends the govt gets, but intends to decimate those dividends and the capital value of the company with their power plan.

    • karol 7.1
      18 November 2013 at 6:29 pm

      photonz, if you want to keep commenting on this thread, you need to do better – eg provide some citations showing what Labour is actually saying they will do.

      Labour and The Greens have different policies from NActUF – but you make it sound like they are exactly the same.

      • Paul 7.1.1
        18 November 2013 at 6:35 pm

        He’s just here to disrupt.
        I get very bored having to read his deliberate attempts to derail and distract discussion.

        • ann kerr 7.1.1.1
          18 November 2013 at 7:47 pm

          Lets just ignore them. Don’t give the p…ks any oxygen

        • photonz 7.1.1.2
          18 November 2013 at 7:56 pm

          So endless mindless personal attacks that don’t even mention the topic (like the one you just did), are not boring.

          But anything that shows up hypocrisy of the people you are cheer leading for is.

          And few things are more hypocritical flying around the country and overseas on taxpayer junkets, then driving into town for an anti drilling protest.

          • Paul 7.1.1.2.1
            18 November 2013 at 7:58 pm

            I see you’re ducking from one post to another.
            Debate the issues or depart.

          • karol 7.1.1.2.2
            18 November 2013 at 8:02 pm

            photnz, you are creating the problem – so try starting again. You claimed

            The left also want to drill it.

            They still want to fill their car up, so they want some other person, in some other place, to take all the risks for drilling the fuel that they use.

            The left also want to mine it.

            They still want tvs and cars and computers, so they want some other person, in some other place, to take all the risks for mining so the products they want can be made.

            The left are happy to sell assets as well.

            You are referring back to past Labour governments to justify your claims about what labour allegedly WANT to do when next in government.

            So, where’s your evidence? If you are going to claim hypocrisy, try providing some evidence from current Labour policies or statements, about what they would do in the future. The world has changed since the 1990s.

            • photonz 7.1.1.2.2.1
              18 November 2013 at 8:47 pm

              Did Labour go to the public (or even tell anyone) when they sold Spring Creek Mine?

              And we’re not talking 1990s – it was in 2007.

              And what about the missing $100m of shares in Air NZ.

              In 2002 they owned 82%. A few years later they somehow carelessly managed to lose 6% (or around $100 million)

              • mickysavage …
                18 November 2013 at 9:21 pm

                You know the answer photonz. Go on enlighten us. Show us that you have not been trying to imply something that is not true. Go on.

              • tricledrown …
                18 November 2013 at 10:11 pm

                so why is bling english stopping asset sales photonz.
                get your facts right the $100 million was needed to refinance new aircraft purchases it was funded mainly by the Singapore govt owner of Singapore airlines a minority shareholder also an alliance partner was allowed to keep its share holding even though it was completely bankrupt because international airlines need partners to survive in the long haul tourist and business class Michael Cullen saved the Airline the Nactufs said let it go to the wall.
                Now nationals slush fund is primed for the next election thanks to Labours foresight.

          • framu 7.1.1.2.3
            19 November 2013 at 7:37 am

            “So endless mindless personal attacks ”

            oh boo hoo hoo, somebody call the whaaaambulance

            your a pathetic cry baby

            you say a bunch of stuff
            people point out why they disagree or why you are wrong
            you evade and distract till you piss people off
            people tell you that youve become a pain in the ass
            you ignore that
            people give up and tell you to piss off

            then you have a pathetic fucking little cry that people are being mean to you.

            Is photonz actually srylands? – that was his exact same MO

            • Tracey 7.1.1.2.3.1
              19 November 2013 at 1:09 pm

              Funny you would write that framu… through it out there obliquely last week… the tone is VERY similar

              • framu …
                19 November 2013 at 2:19 pm

                thats right – it wasnt till you posted that, that i suddenly remembered where i got the idea from 🙂

          • Tracey 7.1.1.2.4
            19 November 2013 at 1:08 pm

            IF you genuinely care about hypocrisy of people I look forward to your line by line aalysis of this

            http://thestandard.org.nz/an-honest-man/

            And given you dont like hypocrisy, just WHO will you be voting for next year?

    • Francis 7.2
      19 November 2013 at 12:27 pm

      “When Labour (82% shareholder of Air NZ) sold down ( around $100 million to 76%), not a whisper of protest.”

      Citation needed.

    • Tracey 7.3
      19 November 2013 at 1:12 pm

      “A report into the mine explosion found systemic failures by several government departments contributed to the deaths of the 29 miners.

      “Two of the shareholders in Pike River Coal were also Crown agencies – ACC and the New Zealand Superannuation Fund.”

      Commissar Brownlee presided over the opening of this mine with champagne in hand… and you who doesnt like hypocrisy left this out in your “analysis”.

  8. Paul 8
    18 November 2013 at 6:21 pm

    I see all Slater’s have come over here to play.
    Bedtime soon.

    • chris73 8.1
      18 November 2013 at 6:36 pm

      Yeah its a bugger when people have different opinions

      [karol: unsubstantiated “opinions” won’t cut it. Those attempting to derail with little of substance, or opinions disconnected from and facts/reality, will start to find their comments in open mike instead of here.

      Here’s an idea – try an argument, preferably evidence-based, rather than just opinions plucked out of the air. So back on topic, please, people.]

      • McFlock 8.1.1
        18 November 2013 at 6:42 pm

        That would be why Key’s sold as much as he can before the referendum.

        They started with an excellent budget and a cupboard full of income-returning assets, and within 5 years we’re in massive hock and the cupboard is bare.

        • karol 8.1.1.1
          18 November 2013 at 6:57 pm

          It seems there’s two different opinions coming out of both sides of the government’s mouths:

          Most news sources say English says there will be no more asset sales or no more sales after next election. But One News has this:

          Finance Minister Bill English says a re-elected National Party-led government is not planning any more asset sales after the 2014 election.
          […]
          There were no other obvious candidates for partial privatisation, English said.
          […]
          “The kinds of assets that would benefit from it (partial sale) are in the programme,” said English. “The other assets need different management.”
          […]
          Joyce said “we will be transparent” about announcing any intention to resume asset sales.

          • photonz 8.1.1.1.1
            18 November 2013 at 8:03 pm

            karol – perhaps they are talking about PPPs. i.e. private companies building and maintaining schools, and the govt leasing or renting them. That’s been talked about quite a bit previously.

            [karol: is this the best you can do? Who is “they”? Joyce? He is talking about “asset sales” – that is selling something. PPPs, by you own definition is building things.]

            [karol: moved some of you other comments over to open mike, and a reply by Ian – to keep the other comments in sync – to keep the discussion on topic]

            • Will@Welly 8.1.1.1.1.1
              18 November 2013 at 9:35 pm

              But what you can do is get private enterprise to build new schools, prisons, hospitals, etc, then once they are built, they are run as PPP’s. Then the Government closes down the old obsolete institutions, bulldozers them, and flogs the land off to property developers. We’re seeing that with state housing, and the re-build in Christchurch. Also, under the PPP model, there is a tendency to lower wages, which makes it a win-win for the Tory bastards.
              As for stopping the asset sales, this is just a ruse. Obviously the Nat’s polling is telling them that the people are opposed, but wait until next year – if Johnny the liar thinks he in with a chance, they’ll be back on the table as quick as mud flies. The Nat’s want to flog off Kiwibank, KiwiRail, TVNZ, NZ Post, Radio NZ, just to name a few.
              Long-term, expect to have to self fund your own social security and health provisions as those are privatised. Johnny the money-trader is in the pocket of the financiers, and are we going to pay.

              • McFlock …
                19 November 2013 at 11:31 am

                the other thing is that the SOE sell-offs are the tip of the iceberg – there are the declining units within SOEs that are either being downgraded or outright wound up (Hillside rail workshops spring to mind). How many SOEs that remain will be empty husks?

      • Paul 8.1.3
        18 November 2013 at 6:49 pm

        I have no problem with different opinions.
        I do have a problem with the fact the vast majority of you come over simply to derail and distract from the actual debate. The right wingers who come on this site are also prone to insult in a provocative manner with inflammatory language. It’s clear a lot are here not for honest or real debate..but as I said to play.
        If the level of reasoning is juvenile or puerile, it seems fair to request you return to your right wing blogs, where you can behave as you wish.

        • Ian 8.1.3.1
          18 November 2013 at 8:03 pm

          I have no problem with The Government selling some of it’s portfolio and allocating that capital to other portfolio’s .You guys need to follow the money a bit more and see behind your slogans. I sold some of my land assetts a few years ago but reinvested that money into shares that have increased 50 % in 3 years. The Govt is no different if it can sell assetts ,reinvest that money into something better. . It is prudent financial management in my opinion.

          • karol 8.1.3.1.1
            18 November 2013 at 8:16 pm

            I think if you hang around here long enough you’ll see that the opposition to asset sales is based on sound arguments, not empty slogans.

            What’s the point of selling off assets for essential services like power, so that some investors and corporates can drain off a private, raise prices for consumers, and too often send the profits overseas. If such enterprises stay state owned, the state gets some profits to use elsewhere.

            And do tell what essential enterprises you think the Nat government will put the asset sales money into?

            • Ian 8.1.3.1.1.1
              18 November 2013 at 8:25 pm

              I spend approx $ 200000 a year on electricity a year which I currently purchase from Meridian. I quite liked the idea of owning a stake in that industry so that I make sure that profits are not siphoned off by politicians to buy votes.

              • karol …
                18 November 2013 at 8:31 pm

                Exactly how would politicians use the profits to “buy votes”? Like maybe they could use some profits form it for the education and health systems. How are you going to get the stakeholders and business managers to both, deliver a return to stakeholders AND lower prices?

                • Ian …
                  18 November 2013 at 8:47 pm

                  I remember Helen clark Bought a 3 rd term by wiping interest on student loans. Landcorp are selling dairy farms at the moment. Follow the money and look at where they are going to reinvest the capital. They are selling assetts , so they can grow their business. Honestly,the crappy slogans you guys are singing are getting you nowhere.

                  • mickysavage …
                    18 November 2013 at 9:06 pm

                    So Ian if an asset was a really sound investment and produced a good return would you sell it or keep it?

                    • photonz …
                      18 November 2013 at 9:27 pm

                      Get rid of it real quick if the potential next government wanted to destroy it’s dividends and capital value.

                      You can’t argue to keep the assets because of the great dividends, when your plan is to destroy those same dividends.

                    • mickysavage …
                      18 November 2013 at 9:33 pm

                      You can’t argue to keep the assets because of the great dividends, when your plan is to destroy those same dividends.

                      I will make it really simple for you. Public ownership of community assets where the profit goes to us all good, private ownership of community assets where the profit goes overseas and to the uber wealthy bad. And if that happens then sure, tax them to try and return some of the profit to the public.

                    • photonz …
                      18 November 2013 at 9:49 pm

                      The arguement to keep the assets wast because of the dividends they made the govt.

                      That argument is blown to bits with the Labour/Greens power plan.

                      Surely the referendum question should be ” Do you want to keep the assets, then destroy their value?

                    • Ian …
                      18 November 2013 at 9:57 pm

                      Assets Mickey are like the weather.Some days absolutely brilliant ,other days ,what the fuck am I doing here. I am a natural born trader ,and my heros at the moment are Nga Tahu ,those guys know how to work their assetts .The biggest Asset that national doesn’t have to sell at the moment is David Cuniliffe ,his bullshit is a gift from heaven ,and Key won’t be selling him in a hurry

                    • felix …
                      19 November 2013 at 4:00 am

                      “Surely the referendum question should be ” Do you want to keep the assets, then destroy their value?”

                      photonz, you haven’t identified the value at all.

                      The value of these pieces of infrastructure is their ability to produce energy. Everything you’re worried about – share price, dividend, revenue, profit – is irrelevant to that.

                      This infrastructure should never have been operated as if it were a bunch of corporations and it’s time to put a stop to that. It’s time to realise the value to the people of NZ.

                    • One Anonymous Knucklehead …
                      19 November 2013 at 7:42 am

                      “…if that happens then sure, tax them to try and return some of the profit to the public.”

                      No. Return the property to its rightful owners without compensation, and make it absolutely clear that none of the National Party’s deals will be honoured as long as they continue to sell legislation and the practice of “trading on their time as MPs to build a lucrative business career” (sic).

                      Overseas buyers will get their fingers burnt, but locals will enjoy the benefits (lower power prices, smashing neo-liberalism) of a return to best practice, and New Zealand will have taken punitive action against its enemies.

                  • karol …
                    18 November 2013 at 9:07 pm

                    I remember Helen Clark Bought a 3 rd term by wiping interest on student loans.

                    And exactly what has that to do with asset sales?

                    And John key got two terms talking about a “brighter future”, smiling a lot, doing loads of photo ops, and using PR fed lines (“show me the money”>

                    Please just stop with the abuse, and make a decent argument.

                    They are selling assetts , so they can grow their business.

                    And this isn’t a slogan? You won’t convince unless you can provide some details .

                    Now, you are treating governance of a country as if it is the same as governing a business.

                    A country needs basic services like electricity. It provides the infrastructure from which most other enterprises, and daily life, operate: including education, health, etc. Sell power, and you’ve given away a basic necessity.

                    Would you sell your house the pipes that bring water into your house so that you can invest in a photography business?

                    • Ian …
                      18 November 2013 at 10:17 pm

                      Are you saying that none of Helens spending came from assett sales,because if you are,you are not correct.I am not abusing you. You are deluded if you believe your electricity will be disconnected because I now own a part of your electricity producer. You better pay up though,because I don’t like thieves. I supply my own water to my house ,and I have my own cameras.

                    • karol …
                      18 November 2013 at 10:32 pm

                      Ian, your argument is all over the place and really doesn’t add anything to the discussion. You are asking me about things I haven’t included in my post – about the past. And you make assumptions. In case you haven’t noticed, Helen Clark is neither PM, or leader of Labour and seeking to become the next PM.

                      I am interested in what Labour and the Greens would do, and i like their suggestion of NZPower – although it doesn’t go far enough. If it were practical after all the destruction by key’s government, I would like to see power re-nationalised. it should never have gone to SOEs, and selling of such a big part of the companies will result in price rises.

                      People on low incomes, already struggling to pay the bills, will suffer more.

                      Where did I say anything about my electricity being disconnected. I’m using water supply to a house an analogy for electricity supply to the country.

                  • Lanthanide …
                    18 November 2013 at 9:45 pm

                    I don’t think anyone can seriously dispute Helen bought the election with that policy, given the polling in the weeks leading up to it, the sudden blip after the policy was announced and the exit polling conducted.

                    But the thing is, interest free student loans is a good policy that makes sense.

                    I see a lot of right-wingers slagging off about how students don’t need it, blah blah blah, including the (recently) sensible Bernard Hickey. What these people don’t seem to understand, is that without the IFSL policy, a lot of people just like me would have buggered off to Autralia simply to have a chance to earn enough money to pay off the loan ahead of the interest.

                    I guess on the other hand, if people like me had buggered off to Australia, the housing market might not be as difficult as it is. But the government’s tax revenues would also be down…

              • Tat Loo (CV) …
                19 November 2013 at 8:12 am

                Ian, Key and English pawned the power generators off to you in order to “buy your vote.” In order to direct money from those state assets into your wallet, to “buy your vote.”

                That you pretend not to understand that is self serving and disingenuous.

      • photonz 8.1.4
        18 November 2013 at 9:23 pm

        So all sorts of versions of “fuck off shrill” are all ok (as long as they’re by a leftie).

        But pointing out hypocrisy (with no profanities) cannot be tolerated in any way if it’s even slightly critical of the left.

        [I am wondering if photonz has overstayed his welcome. There is nothing worse than being lectured about how you have no commitment to freedom of speech when you provide a platform for them to shout and shout and not understand when they need to quieten it down slightly – MS]

        • Gatsby 8.1.4.1
          18 November 2013 at 9:39 pm

          Democracy is about free speech whether you agree with it or not. To block or ban someone just because you don’t agree with them is completely undemocratic and ban on everyone’s civil liberties. It’s in completely opposite to what those who want freedom and democracy.

          [karol: Gatsby, I’ve said to you before, it is not blocking someone because I disagree with them, but because they are derailing the thread and not adding anything to the topic. This is going to moderation because you also are off topic, and breaking a few Standard rules.

          I am actually hoping Photonz will lift his/her game, and add something of substance to the discussion.]

          • mickysavage 8.1.4.1.1
            18 November 2013 at 9:43 pm

            So let’s see, there is a group who come over here and make obnoxious pests of themselves and get themselves told off or even banned and then another group come over here and tell us that we do not support free speech.

            It appears a bit contrived, doncha think?

            • karol 8.1.4.1.1.1
              18 November 2013 at 9:50 pm

              It does indeed, micky. I’ve sent one mini-thread to open mike, including one of yours micky – if I don’t move the replies, all the comments left here get thrown out of sync…. which already seems to have happened. I will try to tidy it up.

              [lprent: did it. ]

              [karol: Thanks, Lynn. I pondered how to do it. Then gave up]

              • Gatsby …
                18 November 2013 at 10:01 pm

                [deleted]

                Please don’t censor free speech.

                [deleted]

                [karol: for goodness sake. This goes to moderation – your democracy line is a diversion and does not stack up. It’s getting tiresome. Give it a rest, or you will be in line for some time out. Keep cluttering up this thread with your untenable line, and you will be banned from the thread.]

                [lprent: This pious fuckwit quite evidently doesn’t see the bank account that empties out providing this “free speech”. Not to mention our time and effort. Banned for two weeks for starting up with one of the more stupid troll lines that is under the darwin awards in the policy – that they clearly haven’t read. I’d also encourage them to consider the last section in the about. If they want to set the rules of a site, then they should do it on their own one. ]

                • Gatsby …
                  18 November 2013 at 10:46 pm

                  [deleted]

                  Your calling me a pious fuckwit is a pointless personal attack.

                  [lprent: Read my note carefully. There was a point to it as you are just demonstrating in your behaviour again. Anyone stupid enough to lecture an author about site policies on their site really has a problem with their rather pathetic faith in human nature.

                  As a hint for the future, there is always a hardworking arsehole like myself who finds it pathetically pious to be lectured about how we should run this site by a lazy parasite who doesn’t read the about or policy. They will like shoving the point in to demonstrate the fatal flaw in that freeloader theory.

                  Perhaps you should read the whole of the policy… Including the section about wasting my time.

                  ban doubled to 4 weeks. ]

                  • photonz …
                    19 November 2013 at 12:15 am

                    Gatsby – the censorship and rules obviously only apply to right wingers.

                    [deleted more whining ]

                    [lprent: Ah no. Many people who write here a lot have had bans including felix, millsy, morrissey, vto, etc etc.. Currently the longest non-permanent ban is being held by Jenny. But there is a distinct difference between how people handle getting warned or banned. Those with intelligence regard this as just being something that the people running the site setting their rules – they will respectfully disagree and serve their time. If they are really annoyed they will setup or get involved in their own site where they do the work and can set the rules.

                    Then there are the self-martyrdom whiners like yourself. I’m always happy to help such silly idiots immolate themselves as being a way to improve the overall standard of the net.

                    Ban doubled to 4 weeks for making me write this explanation. ]

                    • framu …
                      19 November 2013 at 7:44 am

                      photonz

                      imagine youve turned up uninvited to an open invite party

                      nothing wrong there of course – its an open invite after all

                      then you go around making a dick of yourself, passing snide little jokes about the decor and telling the host exactly why they are wrong about everything

                      just how long do you think thats going to last till your asked to pull your head in or fuck off?

                      so stop being a little cry baby and own your own behaviour – theres nothing wrong with admitting your mistakes and apologising

              • Ian …
                18 November 2013 at 10:49 pm

                Your bosses are not happy.They don’t like free speech. I can assure you that Key knows what he is doing.I would back him a thousands times ahead of cunliffe and norman. Kiwi power will go the same way as kiwi insure. Hey nice talking to you,it’s a pity those wankers who ramble on about off topic ,et al,hang around like a bad smell.

                • Tracey …
                  19 November 2013 at 1:18 pm

                  ” I can assure you that Key knows what he is doing”

                  Thanks Ian, I feel so much better now. Phew, that was a close one.

                  Thanks for your assurance. Previously all I had to judge him on was this;

                  “New Zealanders put their trust in John Key. As the 2008 election neared, New Zealanders sensed a positive change was in the offing, a change driven by optimism which held out the reassurance that the darkening and ominous clouds heralding financial meltdown gathering around previously rock-solid international banking institutions didn’t have to reach as far as us.

                  In fact, a multi-millionaire, a man who had made his fortune working with those very institutions had stepped up to offer his talents and to soften any impact such impending fiscal threat imposed. And look – he grew in a solo parent family dependent on a benefit for his family’s very food and rent. He knows struggle street, he’ll look after us, he’s one of us. Consider his own example; that’s how we work things out – be positive, couple our innate Kiwi optimism with a sturdy and aspirational mind-set to embrace a new New Zealand offered by John Key.

                  Sure, we can make mistakes, heh, just look at all that silly fuss about the Coldplay song on that promotion CD the nice smiling John Key sent to us. He won’t let us down. Yes, its time for a change. And guess what? John Key has promised live on television to never lie and to always do his best.

                  Now, four-and-a-half years later we know that was his first lie, and it certainly wasn’t going to be his last. And these are only the ones we know about. In fact, as the litany of lies still spills from John Key, it must be asked: is the litany orchestrated?

                  You decide. Take the “power” back.

                  01 – I promise to always be honest

                  02 – We’re not proposing to change the Employment Relations Act in a way that weakens unions

                  03 – we are not going to sack public servants, the attrition rate will reduce costs

                  04 – we are not going to cut working for families

                  05 – I firmly believe in climate change and always have

                  06 – We seek a 50% reduction in New Zealand’s carbon-equivalent net emissions, as compared to 1990 levels, by 2050. 50 by 50. We will write the target into law.

                  07 – National Ltd™ will provide a consistent incentive for both biofuel and biodiesel by exempting them from excise tax or road user charges

                  08 – I didn’t know about The Bretheren election tactics

                  09 – If they came to us now with that proposal [re trans-Tasman Therapeutic Goods regime], we will sign it

                  10 – I can’t remember my position on the 1981 Springbok Tour

                  11 – Tranzrail shares

                  12 – I did not mislead the House (1)

                  13 – Lord Ashcroft

                  14 – National Ltd™ would not have sent troops into Iraq

                  15 – Standard & Poors credit downgrade

                  16 – the double-down grade doesn’t really matter and its only about private sector debt

                  17 – I did not mislead the House (2)

                  18 – I didn’t say I want wages to drop

                  19 – the real rate of inflation is 3.3 percent.

                  20 – the tourism sector has not lost 7,000 jobs

                  21 – no I have never heard of Whitechapel

                  22 – I won’t raise GST

                  23 – people who are on the average wage and have a child are $48 a week better off after the rise in GST

                  24 – the purchase of farmland, by overseas buyers will be limited to ten farms per purchase

                  25 – the Pike River Mine was consented to under a Labour Government

                  26 – no promises were made to get the remains of the miners out of the Pike River mine

                  27 – I did not provide a view on the safety of the Pike River coalmine

                  28 – I did not mislead the House (3)

                  29 – capping, not cutting the public service

                  30 – raising the minimum wage to $15 per hour will cost 6000 jobs

                  31 – north of $50 a week

                  32 – privatisation won’t significantly help the economy

                  33 – wave goodbye to higher taxes , not your loved ones

                  34 – I never offered Brash a diplomatic job in London

                  35 – Tariana Turia is “totally fine” with the Tuhoe Treaty Claim deal

                  36 – Kiwisaver

                  37 – National Ltd™ is not going to radically reorganise the structure of the public sector

                  38 – tax cuts won’t require additional borrowing

                  39 – New Zealand does not have a debt problem

                  40 – New Zealand troops in Afghanistan will only be involved in training, not fighting

                  41 – the wage gap between New Zealand and Australia has closed under my National Ltd™ government

                  42 – It took 9 years for Labour to make a complete and utter mess of the economy

                  43 – National Ltd™ has changed the Overseas Investment Act to include 19 different criteria

                  44 – the price of goods and services has risen by 6 per cent since the last election, while the has actually gone up by 16 per cent

                  45 – no, although its a week ago and here I am being interviewed on television about them, I havn’t seen Gerry Brownlee’s comments regarding demolitions in Christchurch and which caused such outrage, but I can talk all about them

                  46 – our SAS soldiers were not involved in the Kabul Hotel gunfight

                  47 – the use of the Vela brother’s helicopter was required so I could attend meetings relating to national/international security concerns

                  48 – the DPS makes the decision about accompanying the Prime Minister or not, I had no choice but to take them on holiday to Hawaii

                  49 – I did not mislead the House (4)

                  50 – oh, maybe our SAS soldiers were in the Kabul hotel gun fight but they weren’t wounded by friendly fire

                  51 – New Zealand has lost $12 billion from GDP due to the Christchurch earthquake . . . oh, it might actually be around $15 billion from GDP due to the Christchurch earthquake . . . Blinglish said what?

                  52 – 10,000 houses will have to be demolished in Christchurch due to the earthquake

                  53 – 14,000 new apprentices will start training over the next five years, over and above the number previously forecast

                  54 – Our amendments to the ETS ensure we will continue to do our fair share internationally

                  55 – we are committed to honouring our Kyoto Protocol obligations

                  56 – any changes to the ETS will be fiscally neutral

                  57 – we [NZ] have grown for eight of the last nine quarters”

                  58 – National Ltd™ will tender out the government banking contract

                  59 – we will be back in surplus by 2014-15

                  60 – Nicky Hager’s book “Other People’s Wars” is a work of fiction

                  61 – unemployment is starting to fall

                  62 – we have created 60,000 jobs

                  63 – we have created 45,000 jobs

                  64 – the 2011 Budget will create in the order of 170,000 jobs

                  65 – I don’t know if I own a vineyard

                  66 – no, I did not mislead the House (5)

                  67 – the Isreali spy killed in the Christchurch quake had “only one” passport

                  68 – the Police will not need to make savings by losing jobs

                  69 – GCSB re Kim Dotcom x 3 (that we know about)

                  70 – I did not mislead the House (6)

                  71 – I voted to keep the drinking age at 20

                  72 – New Zealand is 100% Pure

                  73 – I’ve been prime minister for four years, and it’s really 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year

                  74 – baseball in New Zealand is attracting more government support

                  75 – the decision to buy brand new BMWs was made by the Department of Internal Affairs without reference either to their minister or to me

                  76 – I didn’t have a clue that Ministerial Services, which I am in charge of, was going to buy brand new BMWs

                  77 – even though two of my ministers knew all about it, I didn’t have a clue that brand new BMWs were being bought.

                  78 – even though my Chief of Staff met with officials to discuss purchase of the the brand new BMWs, I didn’t have a clue

                  79 – Labour forced us into buying the brand new BMWs, its their fault

                  80 – ummm, look, sorry about that BMW thing , it was because I was so upset about the death of a New Zealand soldier and Julia Gillard was visit too

                  81 – the public demanded that we change the labour laws for The Hobbit

                  82 – “The Hobbit” created 3000 new jobs

                  83 – we have delivered 800 extra doctors in the public service

                  84 – I did not mislead the House (7)

                  85 – I wasn’t working at Elders when the sham foreign exchange deals took place

                  86 – I was starting School Certificate exams in 1978

                  87 – I don’t know who arrived on the CIA jet to visit the spies I am responsible for

                  88 – reducing barriers to property developers will increase the availability of affordable housing

                  89 – Labour left the economy in poor shape

                  90 – forecasts show unemployment will fall

                  91 – we have closed the wage gap with Australia by $27

                  92 – Ngati Porou and Whanau Apanui are not opposed to mining

                  93 – I have not had any meetings with Media Works

                  94 – our [NZ’s] terms of trade remain high

                  95 – the TPP is an example of democracy

                  96 – National Ltd™ will use the proceeds of state asset sales to invest in other public assets, like schools and hospitals

                  97 – New Zealand troops will be out of Afghanistan by April 2013

                  98 – overseas investment in New Zealand adds to what New Zealanders can invest on their own

                  99 – overseas investment in New Zealand creates jobs, boosts incomes, and helps the economy grow

                  100 – National Ltd™ will build 2000 houses over the next two years

                  101 – there are only 4 New Zealand SAS soldiers in Bamiyan and all working in the area of logistics and planning only

                  102 – selling state assets will give cash equity to those companies

                  103 – the Sky City deal doesn’t mean more pokies

                  104 – there was nothing improper about the Sky City deal

                  105 – my office has had no correspondence, no discussions, no involvement with the Sky City deal

                  106 – SkyCity will only get “a few more” pokie machines at the margins

                  107 – any changes to gambling regulations will be subject to a full public submission process

                  108 – Sky City has approached TVNZ about the purchase/use of government-owned land

                  109 – the Auditor General has fully vindicated National over the Sky City deal

                  110 – there’s a 50/50 chance the Hobbit is going off shore unless we do something

                  111 – David Shearer has signed up for the purchase of shares in Mighty River

                  112 – Solid Energy asked the government for a $1 billion capital investment

                  113 – fracking has been going safely on in Taranaki for the past 30 years without any issues

                  114 – no front line positions will be lost at DoC

                  115 – Iain Rennie came to me and recommended Fletcher for the GCSB job

                  116 – I forgot that after I scrapped the shortlist for GCSB job I phoned a life-long friend to tell him to apply for the position

                  117 – I told Iain Rennie I would contact Fletcher

                  118 – for 30 years, or three decades, I didn’t have any dinners or lunches or breakfasts with Ian Fletche

                  119 – I did not mislead the House (8)

                  120 – No, I did not say we would follow the US and Australia into a war against North Korea

                  121 – I paid for that lunch and I’ve got the credit card bill to prove it

                  122 – I called directory service to get Ian Fletcher’s number

                  123 – I did not mislead the house (9)

                  124 – I am honest and upfront

                  125 – cyber terrorists have attempted to gain access to information about weapons of mass destruction held on New Zealand computers

                  126 – the illegal spying on Kim Dotcom was an isolated incident

                  127 – New Zealand has an arrangement to have asylum seekers processed in Australian detention camps

                  128 – the law which says the GCSB cannot spy on New Zealanders is not clear

                  129 – the only way net new jobs can be created is by private investors putting their money into businesses in New Zealand

                  130 – an increase in the number of people looking for work indicates that confidence is returning to the economy

                  131 – the 10 percent of taxpayers in New Zealand who are the top earners pay 76 percent of all net personal tax.

                  132 – I did not mislead the House (10)

                  133 – the substantial wage growth under Labour was eroded by inflation

                  134 – National Ltd™’s 2010 tax changes were fiscally neutral

                  135 I did not mislead the House (11)

                  136 – the bulk of New Zealanders earn between $45,000 and $75,000 a year

                  137 – Pike River Coal did not put profits and its production ahead of the safety and lives of those 29 workers.

                  138 – Radio Live had sought advice from the Electoral Commission about my show just before the election

                  139 – it is because of National Ltd™’s policies that the price of fresh fruit and vegetables has dropped.

                  140 – the length-of-the-country cycleway will create 4000 jobs.

                  141 – police training for next year has not has not been cancelled

                  142 – National Ltd™ has only cut back-office jobs in the health service

                  143 – The Crown’s dividend stream from the Meridians, the Mighty Rivers of the world is large and there is no motivation to sell assets

                  144 – Gross.

                  – BLiP”

                  http://thestandard.org.nz/an-honest-man/

  9. Rosie 9
    19 November 2013 at 9:12 am

    @ Framu at 7.44am (no reply button) +100. Well said.Great analogy.

    Personally I rarely reply to folks like photonz (distracting, attacking, provocative but hollow) because I have to deal with them enough IRL but it’s good to see that others do and point out their flaws. Amazing that when faced with rational debate they behave the badly behaved uninvited but welcomed in party guest.

    It’s always a bit of a relief when they get banned because their noise is so distracting to the flow of conversation regarding the actual topic.I admire the patience and tolerance of the mods!

    • Rosie 9.1
      19 November 2013 at 9:38 am

      or, perhaps they “act like the badly behaved uninvited but welcomed in party guest”. Lol, I WAS distracted by the conversation on the radio on the topic of asset sales.

      • Naturesong 9.1.1
        19 November 2013 at 1:26 pm

        I wouldn’t mind so much if they had robust arguments supported by evidence.

        There is the occasional one, but you have to have the patience to read through;
        – bad analagies
        – poorly constructed strawmen
        – arguments from ignorance
        – arguments from repitition (bellman)
        – cum hoc ergo propter hoc
        – fallacy of division
        – false dilemma
        – false authority (a favourite of the climate change deniers)
        – argument to moderation (surely the middle ground between a highly esteemed scientist and a raving loon on a blog is the correct balance?)
        – red herrings
        … being the main ones I notice.

        I’m not surprised that some contributors resort to ad hominem.

        • framu 9.1.1.1
          19 November 2013 at 2:28 pm

          its funny isnt it – that my position as well.

          I dont care if i disagree with anyone – the world would be boring if we all thought the same

          but you better have an argument that stands up to simple matters of fact and logic or be prepared to admit your mistakes – and yes, before someone says it, that goes both ways

          and its funny how many of the loudest complainers of the ad hom response look only at the point where it happened and not the sometimes long and frustrating conversation that led to someone having enough

    • Will@Welly 9.2
      19 November 2013 at 9:57 am

      +100%

  10. The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 10
    19 November 2013 at 11:01 am

    John Key’s government is going full tilt at dismantling everything of value in NZ

    What next in this trail of destruction of everything good for Kiwis, and fire sales of all that should have been retained to ensure a better future for all who live in NZ?

    Selling minority interests in some utilities is dismantling everything of value and leaving a trail of destruction?

    Perspective, woman.

    • felix 10.1
      19 November 2013 at 11:04 am

      Can’t sell half of something without dismantling it.

    • Draco T Bastard 10.2
      19 November 2013 at 11:24 am

      Selling minority interests in some utilities is dismantling everything of value and leaving a trail of destruction?

      Yes, it is. It is specifically destroying the community for the advantage of a few.

      • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 10.2.1
        19 November 2013 at 12:02 pm

        Selling 20% of Air New Zealand has destroyed the community?

        You have a strange community.

        • Draco T Bastard 10.2.1.1
          19 November 2013 at 7:15 pm

          Working together creates community. Competing with each destroys it.

          Selling AirNZ and all the state assets increases the latter and I want more of the former.

          Not a strange community after all.

          • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 10.2.1.1.1
            20 November 2013 at 9:44 am

            If your community is so fragile it is going to be “destroyed” by the government owning 53% of Air New Zealand instead of 73% something else was probably going to destroy it anyway.

            • felix 10.2.1.1.1.1
              20 November 2013 at 9:53 am

              Yeah this is the one single thing the Nats have done that contributes to destroying community.

              🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄

            • Colonial Viper 10.2.1.1.1.2
              20 November 2013 at 10:01 am

              One thing I love about the neoliberals, they are patient and consistent. 30 years of erosion later and the nation is losing the last ground under its feet.

              • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell …
                20 November 2013 at 10:13 am

                You guys need to get a bit of perspective. You are sounding a little unhinged.

                • Colonial Viper …
                  20 November 2013 at 10:39 am

                  Come now ‘Ole, you’re not blind to it either. Billions of dollars offshored out of NZ annually. Not good for our economy.

                  • felix …
                    20 November 2013 at 11:24 am

                    Don’t be silly CV, you know we’re only allowed to look at anything in isolation.

                    Look, I’m only taking your red crayon. You still have ALL the other colours. What are you complaining about? It’s only ONE CRAYON.

                    Look I’m only taking your green crayon. You still have ALL the other colours that you have. What are you complaining about? It’s only ONE CRAYON.

                    Rinse and repeat.

                    Gormy wants us to only talk about one crayon at a time.

  11. captain hook 11
    19 November 2013 at 12:53 pm

    looks like the key familiars are shitting themselves today.
    the in house party polling must be telling them that the national party is going down the shit shute.
    goodbye and good ridance.
    byeeeeeeee…..

  12. rod 12
    19 November 2013 at 4:54 pm

    It looks like Ian has done a runner.

    • Arfamo 12.1
      19 November 2013 at 4:58 pm

      Wouldn’t be surprised if his continually misplaced and abused commas, fullstops and other punctuation marks finally got together, rose up against him, and slit his throat. Or his cow herd did the equivalent.

  13. Rogue Trooper 13
    20 November 2013 at 12:41 pm

    English [ on the referendum , will be skewed because ] “most who support asset sales will not vote”.
    -Midday Report.

  14. captasin hook 14
    20 November 2013 at 12:49 pm

    most of these tories are little upstarts who think if they kiss enough arse they might get a cheap mansion if they relocate to london after the end of their run at plundering the treasury.

  15. captain hook 15
    20 November 2013 at 12:54 pm

    most of these tories are little upstarts who think if they kiss enough arse they will get a cheap mansion in london at the end of their looting of the New Zealand Treasury.

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