Open mike 03/10/2023

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 3rd, 2023 - 103 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:


Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

103 comments on “Open mike 03/10/2023 ”

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  1. lprent 1
    3 October 2023 at 8:56 am

    The site was a victim of spring cleaning. Looks like we knocked the power off at the UPS while cleaning up cables and reorganising furniture late night at about 10pm.

  2. Dennis Frank 2
    3 October 2023 at 9:02 am

    I see Jack Tame has become an election issue. How much?

    As close observers of the 2023 campaign will be aware, Jack Tame, host of the TVNZ programme Q+A, is emerging as an important election issue. https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/02-10-2023/the-minister-responsible-for-jack-tame

    Yeah, but how much?

    Probably somewhere between law and order and climate change.

    Wow! No kidding?

    Winston Peters and Willie Jackson have helpfully laid out comprehensive Jack Tame manifesto positions by choosing, in conversations with Jack Tame, to talk a lot about Jack Tame.

    Jackson is, of course, the current broadcasting minister (encompassing Jack Tame), and presumptive broadcasting minister under a Labour-Green-Te-Pāti-Māori coalition of chaos. Peters, meanwhile, revealed to Jack Tame yesterday that he would seek the ministerial warrant for broadcasting in a National-Act-NZ-First coalition of chaos.

    So no matter the election outcome we get a coalition of chaos & interesting times. Cool.

    Top of Peters’ list for Jack Tame reforms is stopping Jack Tame being “corrupt” and, as he put it, “trying to get rid of New Zealand First because your masters told you to”. It is unclear whether, under a change of government, Jack Tame would be permitted to try to get rid of New Zealand First if his masters did not tell him to.

    Yeah, obviously the situation will require a certain amount of head-scratching. Could wheel out a few political scientists into the mix to pontificate on the health of democracy in this scenario. Get Jack Tame to rate their comparative credibility.

    • Ad 2.1
      3 October 2023 at 11:26 am

      Jack Tame is going well into the Lindsay Perigo scale of political importance, but he probes largely on political tactics and dynamics rather than what actual government or – dare we expect it – what kind of New Zealand each kind of coalition would deliver.

      He's hardly Ian Fraser in gravitas or actual use beyond the standard beltway echo-chamber.

      • Patricia Bremner 2.1.1
        3 October 2023 at 12:26 pm

        Ad, what is your considered opinion of Winston Peters’ behaviour during that interview?

        • mikesh 2.1.1.1
          3 October 2023 at 4:00 pm

          He lacks media training. If he doesn't know the cost of something he should admit that, but then say the issue, whatever it is, is one that we should be considering, regardless of cost. That would stop Jack Tame’s silly nonsense in its tracks.

  3. Barfly 3
    3 October 2023 at 9:18 am

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/revealed-how-acts-david-seymour-was-gifted-a-plane-for-the-election-campaign/

    Now when I noticed this right wing puff piece by the toilet paper escaping NZ Herald I developed something of an itch in the back of my mind. The article lead with

    "The wealthy businessman who gifted Act leader David Seymour his personal plane without cost to help his election campaign says he did so to allow Seymour to replicate the “whistle-stop” tours commonly seen in the United States."

    Now that itch at the back of my mind was starting to piss me off and while I felt that excreable article was in the 'right' vein it wasn't what was pissing me off soo much.

    My curse/blessing of a bloody good memory delivered with the association my subconscious was trying to propel me to. – and viola

    https://www.wondriumdaily.com/hitlers-presidential-campaign-of-1932/

    "The Nazis adopted a populist sort of approach to politics, which no one had witnessed earlier in Germany. It was called a Deutschlandflug. Hitler took to the skies, flying from city to city in an airplane. He was a manvonvolk, a man from the people. They created an image of a peripatetic, all-powerful man who could be at all places at all times." (my bold)

    David Seymour – perhaps the new 'Minister of Social Welfare Warfare' in a coming NACT Government

  4. Dennis Frank 4
    3 October 2023 at 9:22 am

    Farrar has an interesting take on our business elite here: https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/

    These are the average scores on a 1 to 5 scale that CEOs gave to various politicians in the Herald’s Mood of the Boardroom survey.

    8. James Shaw 3.07

    5. Christoper Luxon 3.49

    7. Damien O’Connor 3.20

    10. Chris Hipkins 2.95

    12. Kieran McAnulty 2.85

    13. Grant Robertson 2.84

    14. Paul Goldsmith 2.81

    31. Marama Davidson 1.75

    Here's the bottom 4 on that list:

    33. Kelvin Davis 1.66

    34. Debbie Ngarewa-Packer 1.65

    35. Jan Tinetti 1.62

    36. Rawiri Waititi 1.60

    37. Willie Jackson 1.52

    Business hotshots aren't keen on Willie but they rate the Maori radicals higher! Who don't they rate?? Failures that failed to make the list at all: Seymour & co, Winston & co. I'm intrigued Farrar didn't notice this significant failure! surprise

    • Bearded Git 4.1
      3 October 2023 at 10:49 am

      Don't buy in to this bollocks Dennis.

      • Dennis Frank 4.1.1
        3 October 2023 at 11:03 am

        Why not? Seems very significant that they rate leftist politicians highly. It breaks the mould that people carry around in their heads: capitalists = rightists. Shows they ain't as dumb as they seem.

        Or, to put the point more elegantly, the extent to which they reward leftist politicians mentally for supporting the established economy.

        • Bearded Git 4.1.1.1
          3 October 2023 at 11:27 am

          Well who are numbers 1,2,3 4, 6 and 8?

          • Dennis Frank 4.1.1.1.1
            3 October 2023 at 11:42 am

            Nats apart from #8 which I noted above was James. Too scared to go & see for yourself? Don't blame you. Spiritual pollution is real, and it does infect!

            I zip in & out after a quick scan to avoid that – just to stay informed at this point in the campaign.

            • Bearded Git 4.1.1.1.1.1
              3 October 2023 at 1:42 pm

              It's paywalled.

              So the first 6 people with highest scores from CEO's are Nats. D'oh!

              • Dennis Frank …
                3 October 2023 at 1:52 pm

                Strange, I saw it on Farrar's blog no problem, didn't encounter a paywall, but yeah, interesting that they don't rate Lux highly even though he was one of that elite group!!

      • tc 4.1.2
        3 October 2023 at 12:07 pm

        Sage advice there BG. Farrar behind grannys paywall asking CEO'S was enough.

        Another useful tool for the right Davey Boy.

    • Ad 4.2
      3 October 2023 at 11:31 am

      It's not useful for anything.

      NZHerald invents different Top 10 Power Brokers for this or that industry from horse racing to real estate.

      What they never get to is the harder one: who are the top 20 most powerful people in New Zealand?

      And what you would get to quickly is that politicians under the top 3 are now well down to the top families and billionaires, and those who Chair multiple listed companies. That is the real rank of power.

      Ranking NZ power is very, very different to ranking Parliamentary power.

      • Dennis Frank 4.2.1
        3 October 2023 at 11:46 am

        I take your point but hierarchical rankings always impress people en masse. Social darwinism effects in the psyche of voters.

        I believe such listings work on a similar basis to imagery: they evoke feelings, form impressions. The interface tween political culture & people is at play…

        • Ad 4.2.1.1
          3 October 2023 at 12:25 pm

          Go and stretch your political mind and list the top 20 most powerful people in New Zealand.

          Use every measure you can think of.

      • AB 4.2.2
        3 October 2023 at 12:38 pm

        Yep. These lists are useful only anthropologically: first you see which groups the Herald deems worthy of having their opinions published; second you see the prejudices of the selected group laid out. It's boring because it's quite easy to predict both these things fairly accurately without the Herald having to do the actual survey in the first place.

    • weka 4.3
      3 October 2023 at 12:29 pm

      please supply a direct link. Go to the post, click on the title, copy and paste from the address bar.

      • Dennis Frank 4.3.1
        3 October 2023 at 1:02 pm

        https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2023/09/mood_of_the_boardroom_ratings.html

        Yeah I didn't go into it earlier because I read it on his front page. Frank the tank wrote "Lot of corporate wokesters are CEOs now. Explains Shaw at above 3".

        He was actually #8 which isn't above 3. That Frank seems to be using his inability to do simple arithmetic to demonstrate rightist solidarity.

        Another, krazykiwi, notes that "the ‘result’ is a Bayesian data crime." Literary references to top 19th century mathematicians are unlikely to impress rightist readers due to them not having a clue what he's talking about.

  5. Adrian 5
    3 October 2023 at 9:28 am

    Anyone get the irony of theNats complaining about how unfair life is because their Lead Sook is accused of running scared while they plan to slash the poorest’s income and sack up to 15,000 people before Christmas. Arseholes!.

    • alwyn 5.1
      3 October 2023 at 11:39 am

      "sack up to 15,000 people before Christmas"

      What evidence do you have for your claim that the National Party plan to do this? When have they said that they plan to do so?

    • gsays 5.2
      3 October 2023 at 12:06 pm

      Any thoughts on the courage (or lack of) in the rejected idea of the deputies filling in?

      After all, that is what deputies are for.

  6. ianmac 6
    3 October 2023 at 10:15 am

    Evangelists believe that their god is all powerful.

    Therefore their god would not allow a disastrous Climate change to happen.

    Thus for people like Luxon they can pat the believers of Climate change on the head and leave it all to their god.

    Perhaps that is why National is not active climatically but delay delay delay.

    • Barfly 6.1
      3 October 2023 at 10:31 am

      Perhaps we should also get biblical

      "To burn the earth is a great sin and the wages of sin is death Mr Luxon"

      (I wrote that – just now)

    • Ad 6.2
      3 October 2023 at 11:33 am

      You ever read the story of Noah?

      • SPC 6.2.1
        3 October 2023 at 12:10 pm

        It's a story …and even those who hold it to be true were told it would not happen again.

        The real issue with them is their belief in end time God intervention to sort out the liberals and also fix all of the CC problem.

        • Ad 6.2.1.1
          3 October 2023 at 12:24 pm

          God apparently is well on record to wipe people out through climatic events, written with Genesis in about 1400BC. So it's not some recent preserve of evangelicals.

          There are plenty of telos-driven end-timers on many parts of the political spectrum. You can find them in their billionaire bunkers in Queenstown and Wanaka, in Far North communes, all across Southland from Tuatapere to Owaka, in parts of the Green Party, in the peace movement, all over the place.

          National and Labour can be described as delaying our inevitable end.

          • Dennis Frank 6.2.1.1.1
            3 October 2023 at 1:31 pm

            Yeah. I'm optimistic enough to discount end-times as inevitable, yet realistic enough to acknowledge that addiction to neoliberalism keeps escalating their probability of happening.

            Humanity evolves via catharsis experiences. System crash is a viable possibility at all times. Being locked into any particular mental state diminishes survival prospects and that logic applies to all of us. Hold your beliefs lightly to survive any testing times, shift and adapt when situations compel it.

      • Barfly 6.2.2
        3 October 2023 at 1:07 pm

        I would be lucky to withstand reading a few lines without losing it.

        perhaps I should've said

        "To drown or burn the earth is a great sin and…..et cetera

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 6.3
      3 October 2023 at 2:39 pm

      Oldie but a goodie (GOP Jesus)

      • PsyclingLeft.Always 6.3.1
        4 October 2023 at 7:50 am

        Well..thats a smiler for the morning : ) GOP and Evangelical Luxon Christian? Humour…does help in these (and other) times….

        It is super duper easy for a rich man to enter the Kindom of Heaven. The richer the better, really. Maybe get a solid gold house just to be sure.

        FYI..(just in case?) I say..Truth in Humour !

  7. joe90 7
    3 October 2023 at 10:31 am

    Chief Sook displaying his mendacious arrogance.

    Christopher Luxon ChatGPT

    @rugbyintel

    The problem with Maori is they just won't accept that I know best. They don't even know Maori health outcomes did really well over the last National government.

    https://twitter.com/rugbyintel/status/1708752874216493546

    The Hui livestream: October 02, 2023 @5:40>

    https://www.youtube.com/live/UP0hZ8vp1Nk?si=hKDNVKwRos8hjAcT&t=340

  8. Anne 8
    3 October 2023 at 10:32 am

    Christopher Bishop

    @cjsbishop

    This is another lie from Chris Hipkins. Robertson was never put forward as a stand-in. We offered the Deputies – Nicola v Kelvin. We’ve never had a response to that. Offer remains open.

    Quote

    Ben McKay

    @benmackey

    ·1h

    Hipkins tells AM Labour put forward Grant Robertson as a debate stand-in tonight. "Unfortunately the National party weren't happy with that" Still hopes it could happen next week "I understand Christopher Luxon is going to be in Christchurch on Monday so that would be a good day"

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/133039988/live-christopher-luxon-says-he-didnt-pull-out-of-press-leaders-debate

    Projection again. It is not Hipkins playing dirty and lying.

    • Barfly 8.1
      3 October 2023 at 10:37 am

      Should perhaps Labour offer to have the debate using only former Big Tobacco shills – oops dang thats right Labour, unlike National, is in a severe shortage of those sociopaths.

      • Anne 8.1.1
        3 October 2023 at 10:46 am

        Note: Kelvin Davis is not the Deputy PM. Grant Robertson is. His opposite no. is Nicola Willis who, in the event of a Nat win would become Deputy PM.

        So there's dirty politics from C Bishop for starters.

        • Bearded Git 8.1.1.1
          3 October 2023 at 10:53 am

          Carmel Sepuloni is deputy PM. Kelvin Davis is deputy leader.

          But it should be leader versus leader. Hipkins has offered alternative dates. A woman spokesperson from The Press said that this was possible this morning on RadioNZ, but that the Chicken had refused to change his schedule. The Chicken has admitted this.
          https://www.rnz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=2018909455

          • Dennis Frank 8.1.1.2.1
            3 October 2023 at 11:10 am

            Thought so. Why, then, did Hipkins tell AM (as Anne cited above) that Labour offered Robertson instead. No faith in their deputy, obviously!

            Quite right for the Nats to reject a fake leaders debate when Labour put forward a fake leader instead of a real leader! Goddam charade. Pathetic.

            • Anne 8.1.1.2.1.1
              3 October 2023 at 11:32 am

              You are a bs artist Frank. If you are going to have a debate then you offer like with like. You have spent the past few weeks throwing rocks and Labour and "lefties" in general so don't try to fool me or most people here what you are up to.

              • Dennis Frank …
                3 October 2023 at 11:49 am

                Look Anne, there's no need to try offensive bullshit in order to avoid the reality that you don't want to face up to. Face the facts!

                If you believe anything I wrote is wrong, prove it by quoting facts. If you can't, have the grace to apologise.

              • Bearded Git …
                3 October 2023 at 2:51 pm

                Agree with that Anne. I think Dennis is a troll.

                • Dennis Frank …
                  3 October 2023 at 2:58 pm

                  I'm curious. Do you see all onsite commentators here who don't agree with you as such? If not, precisely what in my commentary makes you think like that??

                • Anne …
                  3 October 2023 at 5:12 pm

                  Don’t think he is a troll, but he does come up with bullshit (I use the full word since he did) from time to time. I note that – like me – not too many people bother to respond to it. 🙂

            • AB 8.1.1.2.1.2
              3 October 2023 at 12:43 pm

              That's a bit purist Dennis. Since elections are so much about economic policy, it would be silly and unfair to put a non-finance minister against a finance shadow minister – just because of the accident of how the deputy-leader roles have been assigned.

              • AB …
                3 October 2023 at 12:57 pm

                Oops – sorry Dennis, my mistake. Should read: "put a non-finance minister (Sepuloni) against the leader of the opposition"

                • Dennis Frank …
                  3 October 2023 at 1:05 pm

                  Yeah it's a valid point re parity, but the chicken thing side-steps the rules of the game: status parity. Debates must do that to seem fair to audience.

                  • Anne …
                    3 October 2023 at 5:21 pm

                    So you agreed with AB re the "parity" point but not my "like with like" @ 1132am which means exactly the same thing. Interesting.

                    • Dennis Frank …
                      3 October 2023 at 5:31 pm

                      Wasn't clear to me what you meant then. I could comment better on your position if you clarified further how you see parity being provided by Labour in their debate stance…

                    • Anne …
                      3 October 2023 at 5:43 pm

                      Debate twosomes.

                      Leaders Hipkin (PM) Luxon (would be PM)

                      Deputies Sepuloni (DPM) Willis (would be DPM)

                      Last but not least:

                      Finance Minister Robertson (former DPM) Willis (would be Finance Minister and DPM)

                      All of those pairs have acceptable parities or in my words 'like with like'.

                    • Dennis Frank …
                      3 October 2023 at 6:23 pm

                      Okay, I see your reasoning & have no disagreement with it. Not sure how it bears on what Labour actually did tho!

                      If they really did offer the debate to Robertson, why didn't they provide parity framing so the Nats could reciprocate??

                    • Anne …
                      3 October 2023 at 7:03 pm

                      They probably did Dennis Frank, or at least framed it in such a way they invited National to accordingly respond. They chose not to.

                      After 50 plus years of political experience as part of an inner circle and observing closely from the periphery, together with another experience not aligned to Labour, I easily detect lying, cheating and disingenuous behaviour. This is how the National Party under Luxon is operating. I would not believe anything that man says nor his deputy and certainly not his campaign manager. They are an extension of the dirty politics Nicky Hager wrote about nearly ten years ago. Nothing has changed.

                    • Roger []
                      3 October 2023 at 8:38 pm

                      Sure you do Anne

  9. Kat 9
    3 October 2023 at 11:05 am

    Letter from Insurance company today listing main factors for changes in house and contents policy with rise in premiums:

    • Rising inflation – particularly in the building sector;
    • Extreme weather events; and
    • Supply chain disruptions.

    And here I was being made to think it was all due to Labour's 'wasteful spending'………

    • satty 9.1
      3 October 2023 at 11:11 am

      Yep, same here. The insurance premium increased by 50% and 30% (Content and House) for us. For me the Climate Crises and Cost-of-Living Crises are closely interlinked.

      Oh, the insurance company didn't mention another important factor… greed-flation.

      • Kat 9.1.1
        3 October 2023 at 12:49 pm

        The 'cost of living crisis' has been leveraged to the max with price increases……..similar to throwing petrol on a fire…..

  10. Drowsy M. Kram 10
    3 October 2023 at 12:24 pm

    Luxon maintains he can't reschedule debate [3 October 2023]
    “We’re in the last week of a campaign and it’s pretty hectic…”

    So Luxon thinks he's "in the last week of a campaign" – but isn't this the second-to-last week? Has Lux been consulting his would-be finance minister about "technical numbers"?

    • Kat 10.1
      3 October 2023 at 12:45 pm

      Chippy has already offered to turn up on next Monday and do the Press Leaders debate, live with audience questions. Luxon is scheduled to be in Ch Ch that day and if he doesn't turn up to the debate that is going to be a very very very bad look……..

      • Belladonna 10.1.1
        3 October 2023 at 7:02 pm

        Bad look in whose eyes?

        The lefties who wouldn't vote National if you paid them?

        For the rest, Luxon has already done what he needs to in the debates (i.e. looked reasonably competent to the online/TV audience) [as judged by the commentators – of course he won't look competent in the eyes of the left wing]

        There are no further wins for him to take out of debates with Hipkins. And this particular one wasn't even going to be televised – so an audience of max 2,000.

        It's a piece of basic electioneering. And National have judged he can maximise his opportunities to convince wavering voters, elsewhere.

        • Kat 10.1.1.1
          3 October 2023 at 9:27 pm

          Luxon……"looked reasonably competent to the online/TV audience…."

          "…as judged by the commentators…."

          Oh of course….the "commentators"…the ones that decide thinking……..

          And the debate was to be livestreamed….meaning it can be watched on TV with the push of a button……

          • Belladonna 10.1.1.1.1
            3 October 2023 at 9:36 pm

            Well, who do you think does decide?

            If you can't accept analysis by political commentators – then there really is little point in discussing anything with you.

            It doesn't make your opinion wrong – just not widely shared….

            • Kat 10.1.1.1.1.1
              3 October 2023 at 9:55 pm

              What about the still undecideds…….the National candidates and supporters in Christchurch……

              If you base your thinking on the analysis of current mainstream political commentators then no wonder you appear to have a fragile self concept.

              • Belladonna …
                4 October 2023 at 9:39 am

                National have made the call that the 'undecideds' won't be materially affected by the Christchurch election debate.
                And are more likely to be affected by alternative electioneering strategies. National candidates and supporters in ChCh have already made their minds up (and probably already voted) – no point in preaching to the choir.

                TBH – I'd tend to agree – after the first one, and absent a major debating coup ("show me the money" "this glitter is going to settle") – which is not going to come from Mr Bland and Mr Blander – the debates don't change opinion.

                And, yes, I do find political analysis interesting. Those who don't are doomed to fester in their own little corner of the internet echo chamber – and will find the real world rather a shock when it comes calling.

                While I could make some response to your personalization of the discussion. I’ll leave it at the fact that those without a coherent argument, degenerate to name-calling.
                And, that it takes someone with a rather tough self-concept to continue commenting as a Centrist on a left-leaning site like TS.

                • Kat …
                  4 October 2023 at 10:12 pm

                  Ok, finding political analysis interesting is a long stretch from basing your thinking on said analysis. But hey, who am I to argue with such depth of awareness of someone so grounded in the real world…..phew! please send autograph to moderator……

                  Name calling….mmmmn….not that I mentioned anything but now that you have, Primadonna seems to fit……

                  • Belladonna …
                    5 October 2023 at 11:13 am

                    those without a coherent argument, degenerate to name-calling.

                    • Kat …
                      5 October 2023 at 12:32 pm

                      Naming is a way of placing order on our world by helping us differentiate between things. It also helps others know what we are referring to when having a conversation…………..

                  • Belladonna …
                    5 October 2023 at 2:36 pm

                    If you struggle to differentiate between 'naming' (using the preferred name for a person or thing, or the commonly used term) and 'name calling' (using a pejorative term or phrase, designed to slur to denigrate) – then I'm sorry for you.

    • PsyclingLeft.Always 10.2
      3 October 2023 at 2:28 pm

      Well, Lux was the guy who spells "Cat"…. : )

      https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/08/election-2023-christopher-luxon-stumbles-on-spelling-doesn-t-rule-out-banning-mobile-phones-in-schools.html

      Maybe a sentence might have helped?

      The fat cat sat, on the mat…….

      • Bearded Git 10.2.1
        3 October 2023 at 2:54 pm

        Luxon is the man who opposes the clean-car discount but took it himself.

        Clearly he is entirely trustworthy.

  11. weka 11
    3 October 2023 at 12:38 pm

    “Being forced into a room with men when unwell and vulnerable – often separated by only a curtain – may be traumatising to many women, even if the perception of threat or danger isn’t realised. It’s not surprising that the practice has been a frequent topic of complaint in feedback from patients, their families and the staff who care for them.

    “Mixed-gender rooms breach the psychological safety of these patients, but this is avoidable by changing bed management practices,” Towns says.

    …

    “Male and female patients express a preference for single-gender rooms. For female patients, this preference is associated with fear of violence while for male patients it is expressed as general concern and discomfort.

    “Respecting these preferences is essential to maintain patient dignity during their hospital stay.”

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/call-for-single-gender-hospital-rooms-to-protect-human-rights-new-report/CFVSTEUIUZEADPOJ7LFASBD33A/

    • Barfly 11.1
      3 October 2023 at 1:24 pm

      Gee why on earth would they do this (mixed rooms) Surely they they should be all gender specific ?

      – Could it perhaps have something to do with maximising the use of available facilities to provide treatment? If you insist on gender specific rooms you are going to have more empty beds that won't be allowed to be used and you will have less health care delivered.

      Where is the budget coming from to build more treatment facilities so that you can manage a lower utilisation rate? You may get more comfortable patients but you bloody well aren't going to be able to treat as many.

      • psych nurse 11.1.1
        3 October 2023 at 7:45 pm

        ED,s separated by curtains, Acute medicat assessment units separated by curtains, Recovery separated by curtains, whats the problem ?.

    • SPC 11.2
      3 October 2023 at 2:25 pm

      If they have separate areas for males and females in the UK, that would explain the concern about gender ID in their health system then …

  12. Dennis Frank 12
    3 October 2023 at 1:20 pm

    Twyford announces foreign policy decision by Labour, Minto freaks out:

    “It’s a disgraceful decision, both unprincipled and cowardly” says PSNA National Chair John Minto.https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2023/10/03/labour-refuses-to-recognise-palestine-even-after-104-years/

    Grant Robertson – There is a formal Foreign Policy part of the manifesto. We’re sticking with the long standing Bi-Partisan approach to a 2 state solution in the Middle East and what we are doing is working with the Palestinian representative on closer discussions but that doesn’t make a change to a formal recognition. It just means that we open that dialogue up.

    Q – So no formal recognition?

    GR – Not until there is a state to recognise. But we have long stood for a 2 state solution and what we have said is that we want to have more open and regular dialogue with Palestinian Representatives.

    Presumably GR is doing pr for Labour on the basis that finance ministers are the right people inform the public about foreign policy. A leftist thought process.

    However I can't fault the excellent exposition of the Grant. I'm tempted to suggest that Minto is doing grumpy old man syndrome on the topic.

    Yesterday Labour implied in their manifesto release that they would recognise the state of Palestine although the wording was unclear and ambiguous. What is clear now is that the slippery wording was deliberately meant to mean all things to all people.

    They're establishment politicians, what do you expect?? A moon-walk?

    138 other countries have recognised Palestine as a state and haven’t had the “problem” of recognition that Grant Robertson has manufactured for Labour.

    Good point but it could be valid to dispose of them by assigning them to the category flakey. I'm inclined to be agnostic on this one. Wearing my Green hat I'd assert the relevant principle: any political group with a tradition of national identity in their collective reality – even if merely aspirational – has an inherent right to collective recognition of their common identity.

    • SPC 12.1
      3 October 2023 at 2:50 pm

      Meanwhile Israel is no longer recognising some of those converting to Judaism and becoming Rabbi's as eligible to for migration to Israel for this years sukkoth.

      https://www.ynetnews.com/article/skieqtk16

      It appears to be the beginning of a gambit (with the change to the basic law) to question the eligibility of those with a Jewish grandfather to become citizens.

    • Ad 12.2
      3 October 2023 at 2:59 pm

      All the Palestinians got from Oslo was KFC in Ramallah.

      • SPC 12.2.1
        3 October 2023 at 3:02 pm

        No, they got an offer of land for peace (most of the West Bank and Gaza) in 2000, with East Jerusalem as a capital. And Arafat rejected it because he also wanted right of return to Israel for the 1948 refugees.

        A mistake.

        Then his successor allowed Hamas to compete in PA elections, despite the fact they did not accept the Oslo Accords setting up the PA. Then Hamas won and there have been no elections since – soon to be a multiple decade thing.

        • Ad 12.2.1.1
          3 October 2023 at 4:05 pm

          What they were offered was one thing, but they definitely got KFC.

          And when Israel and Saudi Arabia sign their full security and diplomatic pact, they both do a full end-run around Jordan's historic claims which could have supported Palestine.

          House of Saud may as well be the Harkkonens for the play they are doing to bind US, Israel and Saudi Arabia together.

          https://www.reuters.com/world/us-saudi-defence-pact-tied-israel-deal-palestinian-demands-put-aside-2023-09-29/

          • SPC 12.2.1.1.1
            3 October 2023 at 5:03 pm

            The mere suggestion of SA going with an alternative to the US dollar/swift axis towards China …. and a full guarantee of US security ... tied to a SA-Israel deal to ensure that the GOP is enraptured to full accord.

            I doubt they will touch on the Jordan role as to Temple regime co-operation (remnant of the international city concept of 1947).

            Nor on any peace outcome between Israelis and Palestinians, not when the Israeli right has eretz Israel (permanent occupation without West Bank Arab citizens) with a united Jerusalem capital aspiration and SA will still officially support a two state outcome with East Jerusalem as a capital for a new one.

            So what is the Israeli-SA angle that would allow the GOP to accept this .(make it bi-partisan)?

            First SA recognition of Israel. Second SA aid to the PA that comes with strings as to how the PA operates (no reward to families of those who do bad things, but welfare to all families in need)(end to anti Jewish Semite propaganda in education)(one control of the gun)(WB PA elections)(PA regards all 1948 refugees as Palestinian citizens and no longer refugees and gets the AL to go along with this and allow them rights of residency, allowed to leave the camps).

            In return Israel will have to promise to play nice (…..

            The consequences of this going wrong – Jordan left with the Palestinian baby – Hashemite dynasty and PLO 1970's state away from state discord. The Temple run by Zionists for Zionists and invasion plans from the east via Iraq.

    • SPC 12.3
      3 October 2023 at 3:11 pm

      New Zealand’s ruling Labour Party plans to recognize the State of Palestine if it is re-elected on October 14.

      The Labour Party’s commitment entails extending an invitation to the head of the General Delegation of Palestine, allowing them to present their credentials as an Ambassador to New Zealand.

      https://www.palestinechronicle.com/its-official-new-zealands-ruling-party-commits-to-recognizing-palestine-if-re-elected/sharethis sharing button

      New Zealand’s ruling Labour Party plans to recognise the State of Palestine if it is re-elected on 14 October.

      The Labour Party’s commitment entails extending an invitation to the head of the General Delegation of Palestine, allowing them to present their credentials as an Ambassador to New Zealand

      https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231002-new-zealands-labour-party-pledges-recognition-of-palestine-if-re-elected/

      The presumption is allowing the representative to present their credentials is formal recognition, Labour have managed to make it a process, showing all the innovation required to be seen as a sophisticated player in the international community.

      • Dennis Frank 12.3.1
        3 October 2023 at 3:24 pm

        Fair point there. Funny how Minto doesn't see it eh? Doing the 2-step with Oz as interim measure is genuine lateral thinking. yes

        • SPC 12.3.1.1
          3 October 2023 at 3:37 pm

          His Excellency Izzat Salah Abdulhadi is the Head of the General Delegation of Palestine to Australia, New Zealand and the Pacific.

          In 2018 and 2021 Labor’s national conference backed a resolution that “supports the recognition and right of Israel and Palestine to exist as two states within secure and recognised borders” and “calls on the next Labor government to recognise Palestine as a state”.

          But those resolutions were passed when Labor was not in government, and the foreign affairs minister, Penny Wong, has so far declined to commit to a timeframe for recognising a Palestinian state.

          https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jul/06/australia-should-recognise-state-of-palestine-as-part-of-fair-go-ethos-de-facto-ambassador-says

          • Dennis Frank 12.3.1.1.1
            3 October 2023 at 4:53 pm

            Good reporting as it provides essential context, thus meaning relevant to any observer. Wonder why Albo is so hesitant to proceed.

            That bit at the end of the Guardian report about Israel's stance being peace will only come via agreement between Palestine & Israel is rather disingenuous. True on the face of it yet it masks the role of peacemakers as brokers of a deal.

            Biden lacks the ambition to go down in history as the magical transformer of the status quo, seemingly. Same for the UN head. Sad.

  13. Dennis Frank 13
    3 October 2023 at 2:45 pm

    Brilliant exposition on the meanings of Te Tiriti: https://pointofordernz.wordpress.com/2023/10/03/elizabeth-rata-two-treaties-of-waitangi-the-articles-treaty-and-the-principles-treaty/

    In inventing and consolidating the Principles, advocates for a kinship-based political structure have used traditional ideology to provide a timeless, spiritually authorised quality to their very time-bound interests.

    The erroneous partnership Principle is given the greatest weight, opening up a wide backdoor to power. Tribal corporations can now move beyond their economic interests to demand political power – to be entrenched first as co-governance, then as tribal sovereignty.

    How do you get people to believe in an invention and then to agree to its consolidation in legislation? Retribalists simply used age-old strategies.

    She presents a strategic triad used to drive novelty into our traditional stasis, then:

    Embedding one of those partners in the status of indigeneity with the other partner an intruder into Arcadia expands the moral distinction into a timeless mythical realm. Romantic evocations of the evil coloniser and the indigenous colonised provide a more seductive narrative for the nation’s collective memory than the more prosaic fact that, from the thirteen century to the present, all New Zealanders are settlers. Our history is one of waves of settlers. It is a shared experience that trumps an arbitrary division into the indigenous on the one hand and all other settlers on the other, but language control is most successful when it evokes the sacred.

    The interface between the sacred and politics is a mental shared space where politicos rarely go, yet salient to the issues. She extends triad to tetrad:

    It is in the revelation of sacred meaning that the fourth strategy has proved to be most effective. Today’s secular priests – the activist judges, tribalist law professors, and lawyer-politicians – have claimed the authority to interpret the truth from the Treaty runes.

    Ethos usually emerges from mythos, morality generates in consequences of like-minded ethos, then you get articulated laws. Co-governance as a principle is mired in deep context. No clear common ground in legislative application of the principle thus far!

  14. Kat 14
    3 October 2023 at 3:00 pm

    This in the Herald is not paywalled and a must read.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/political-roundup-ten-reasons-labours-support-has-halved/3I3F36OCRFFB3PPCIKZL2TH6VI/

    The bold headline at the end stating "Labour needs honest soul-searching about its defeat" at this stage of the election cycle proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the fear mongering, manipulation and orchestration of disinformation, misinformation and general sycophantic editorials amount to nothing less than 'quid pro quo' by the big end of town.

    If there is ever a bloody civil uprising in this country as many predict, I fear for the likes of Bryce Edwards head……..

  15. ianmac 15
    3 October 2023 at 3:15 pm

    The Judge of Trumps trial has declared that 80% of the charges are outside the Statute of Limitations. Therefore he will evade accountability.

    • Ad 15.1
      3 October 2023 at 4:01 pm

      I think you'll find it's Trump's team that have asserted that, not a ruling from the judge.

  16. ianmac 16
    3 October 2023 at 4:16 pm

    Yes Ad. That was a quote from Trump outside the Court. And by the looks on the faces on faces of his team they were aghast. Sorry that I was ill informed.

  17. randal.mcmurpy 17
    3 October 2023 at 4:25 pm

    nationals are a gang of clowns just this side of the freak show and not up to government.