Open mike 04/11/2015

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 4th, 2015 - 125 comments
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125 comments on “Open mike 04/11/2015 ”

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  1. Tautoko Mangō Mata 1
    4 November 2015 at 7:06 am

    Ranking of digital rights in tech companies.
    https://rankingdigitalrights.org/index2015/

    • weka 2.1
      4 November 2015 at 8:26 am

      Things are going to get very weird. I reckon one of NZ’s biggest shocks will be when people have to get over the idea that it can’t happen to lil ole us in godzone.

      Chapala has weakened and yesterday a Category 2 storm made landfall along the coast to the west of the port city of Al Mukalla, a region with very little or no experience with hurricanes. Bob Henson of Weather Underground said it “is difficult to overstate the rarity and gravity of this event: a hurricane-strength storm striking near a large, ancient city, situated near mountains, with no modern experience in dealing with tropical cyclones”.

      The rainfall poses a huge danger, with Chapala likely bring at least five years’ worth of rain to parts of Yemen.

      • b waghorn 2.1.1
        4 November 2015 at 11:29 am

        The optimist in me hopes rain in places like Yemen will become a regular thing ,and there might be rapid growth to lock up some carbon ,.

        • DoublePlusGood 2.1.1.1
          4 November 2015 at 11:32 am

          The last hurricane event to go through the eastern Yemen area in 2008 dumped a tonne of rain and caused mass floods, but does not create lasting water for a higher level of vegetation than normal. It would probably require a deep sea current change to bring regular rainfall to the area, but warmer temperatures will make hurricanes more frequent.

          • weka 2.1.1.1.1
            4 November 2015 at 2:54 pm

            Swales (and other rainwater harvesting techniques) can make use of high but infrequent rainfall for food growing.

  3. JeevesPOnzi 3
    4 November 2015 at 7:44 am

    Van Essen v The Attorney-General [2015] NZSC 166 (3 November 2015)

    http://www.nzlii.org/nz/cases/NZSC/2015/166.html

    Interesting decision-
    ” [2]
    The search warrant applications were largely prepared by the private investigators.
    It was common ground well before trial that they were invalid.
    The private investigators participated in the execution of the warrants along with police officers.

    There are two other particular points that should be mentioned:
    (a) the Patterson warrant was unsigned; and
    (b) one of the police officers involved in the Van Essen warrant and its execution was Mr Gibbons’ son-in-law. ”

    It seems you don’t even have to be the FBI or a Hollywood mogul to hire our cops for a bust. It must be official police policy now that –Better to just do it wrong and apologise later- because its okay to frame the right guy – that’s not a miscarriage of justice.

    • xanthe 3.1
      4 November 2015 at 11:42 am

      one statement stands out like dogs balls,
      ” In doing so the Court relied on the IPCA investigation and a subsequent report”

      case closed i guess. works every time!

      why would a court accept evidence from an oxymoron? !

      • North 3.1.1
        4 November 2015 at 5:01 pm

        I like your …..”evidence from an oxymoron ?”. Certainly true in name. In nature probably nothing oxymoronic about it. For an institution which is part of the power structure and contributes to it . Bit of a worry really. Because this institution sets threshholds of behaviour.

  4. Tautoko Mangō Mata 4
    4 November 2015 at 8:48 am

    TPP Countries Aiming To Publish Final Agreement Text Later This Week
    Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) countries are aiming to make public the final agreement text before the end of this week, after making more progress than expected at a drafting session that wrapped up in Tokyo at the end of October, according to informed sources.
    http://insidetrade.com/

    Finally we might get to see the fine print.

  5. Rosie 5
    4 November 2015 at 9:26 am

    Do you ever get the feeling you are surrounded by idiots, living here in Nu Zuland?

    A PM who repeatedly pulls the hair of a woman in a position of service, harasses and abuses her, and gets away with it.

    An MP that refers to women performing demeaning sex acts to an audience of technology professionals at Sky City, and gets away with it.

    A Ministry that hires “model sheep” from a sex shop for their xmas party because you know, that’s f-ing hilarrrrious and everyone will love that surely………

    The annual parade of idiots setting things on fire and traumatise animals because we allow idiots to purchase dangerous explosives:

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/288726/fires-on-first-day-of-fireworks-sale

    Idiots that can’t see a problem with strapping a 13 year old girl on to the front of a truck and sending her into flames, for kicks.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/288814/driver-defends-flaming-wall-truck-stunt

    Also see Mickey’s post on a blighted future. Idiocy combined with cruelty.

    Some days you’ve just gotta put your hands in your hands and sigh.

    • BM 5.1
      4 November 2015 at 9:48 am

      The flaming stunt trick was quite impressive, very mad max.

      • Rosie 5.1.1
        4 November 2015 at 10:08 am

        If you had a 13 year old daughter would you do that her?

        There are so many wrongs it’s hard to know where to start.

        A professional stunt woman was interviewed on 3 news last night. She was absolutely gobsmacked at the sheer stupidity and risk of it.

        A child’s life has been endangered with the permission of her idiot parents.

        Neil Jorgensen, the driver of the truck, when asked by the RNZ interviewer couldn’t say that the girl (don’t know her name) volunteered for the stunt, he just kept referring to a discussion with the family. His argument is that he has known the girl’s Dad for 20 years, as if that is relevant to putting a young life at risk.

        Oh, and she wasn’t strapped in, I was wrong. Jorgensen was quite adamant about that. Said she could have jumped at any time. Lucky girl eh, having that choice. A choice between something going wrong and going up in flames or jumping from a moving vehicle and breaking your bones.

        • BM 5.1.1.1
          4 November 2015 at 10:18 am

          I agree, it was utterly stupid and showed a complete lack of awareness.

          For a start she could have been impaled on the bits of flaming wood, not a lot of intelligence on display there.

      • North 5.1.2
        4 November 2015 at 5:06 pm

        BMadmax !

    • Sabine 5.2
      4 November 2015 at 10:12 am

      my partner is one of the many unpaid voluntary firefighters in NZ, and yes, the stupidity of people is astounding.
      Considering that it is the season, I have given up on sleeping through a night until winter next year.
      Cause that beeper (while they still have pagers) is not gonna stop, cause lighting a bbq with flame accelerator is fun, lobbing fire crackers in the bush is fun, burning shit without a permit is fun, and so on and so on and yeah….huwud’avethunk.

      • Rosie 5.2.1
        4 November 2015 at 10:35 am

        Huge respect and gratitude to your partner Sabine.

        I don’t have the level of tolerance for idiots that members of the volunteer fire service would need to possess in order to do their job and keep themselves calm and sane.

        Two years ago one of our neighbours managed to set the vegetation on the roundabout next to our house on fire. The firework set alight very dry ornamental grasses. The flames went up so fast, metres into the air. I was on the phone to 111 immediately and the fire service were there within one minute. Probably one of many call outs to similar fires that night.

        I fully support their calls last year for a discussion around the banning of the public sale of fireworks. If that happened you might get a few more uninterpreted nights with your partner.

  6. esoteric pineapples 6
    4 November 2015 at 9:52 am

    Guts of a letter to the editor of my local newspaper

    I hope Prime Minister John Key isn’t planning to wear a white ribbon this November as it is clear from his past actions that he has no idea what the White Ribbon campaign stands for, which is men standing up and saying to other men that violence towards women is not okay.
    When former Labour leader Cunliffe did exactly this, rather than support him, John Key publicly denigrated him to score political points. He even went so far as to wear a T Shirt saying “I’m proud to be a man” after Cunliffe had lost the election and resigned. He couldn’t resist having one more jab just for the pleasure of it. The worst thing a man can do is actually denigrate other men who stand up and say violence against women is not okay.
    As well, John Key persistently harassed a female café worker despite her objections, claiming afterwards it was just a bit of fun and an indication of his “casual” style. He doesn’t seem to understand that he is not the only male that does this sort of thing and if every man who went in a café felt entitled to harass female staff they would be put upon the whole day long. This is the sort of thing that goes on in a lot of countries.
    As far as I can see, the Prime Minister is still in denial about his attitude and behavior. A good first step for him this November would be to do what many other men have already done. Stand up in public amongst a group of men and women (with accompanying media for maximum publicity) and take the White Ribbon Pledge “I promise never to commit, condone or remain silent about violence towards women”.

    • Rosie 6.1
      4 November 2015 at 10:11 am

      That is an excellent letter e p. What paper was it in?

    • mary_a 6.2
      4 November 2015 at 10:43 am

      @ esoteric pineapples (6) –

      Excellent letter. Thanks for sharing. Where did you find it?

      In my very humble opinion for all it’s worth, FJK is in denial, because his behaviour points to that of a cold, calculating psychopath. He is completely devoid of any emotion towards anyone he abuses, hurts, humiliates, denigrates or offends!

      There is enough evidence there in that letter describing FJK’s behaviour, for a full psychiatric conference I’m sure!

      • Sabine 6.2.1
        4 November 2015 at 12:15 pm

        this is how its done, but Dear Leader is clearly above these ‘trivial’ matters

        https://www.facebook.com/SamoaMoSamoa/photos/a.225162717501562.64779.225138367503997/1091286354222523/?type=3&fref=nf

        Quote from the post
        Former Manu Samoa player, Eliota Fuimaono-Sapolu, is calling Samoan men out, urging them to put a stop to domestic violence against women in Samoa. His comments come after the brutal murder of 25-year-old mother of two Fatima Tupa’i, who was beaten to death by her estranged husband while she was asleep next to their children.

        “A protection order is a piece of paper and a piece of paper will not stop a violent man. Fatima was still beaten to death while she slept with her children. She told the Police and they did nothing. They failed her and her children,” he said. He believed incidents of domestic violence in Samoa were increasing, and urged all men to put a stop to it.

        “Domestic violence is a man’s issue! Who is doing the violence, the rape, the abuse? Men, we have to speak out against our brothers, fathers, uncles and friends. Men, if you see something, do something.”

        “We have to stop being cowards,” he said. He believed women were devalued in Samoa. “Domestic violence is a product of a society that does not value women.”

      • North 6.2.2
        4 November 2015 at 5:52 pm

        I’m in mind of the televised giggles about who’s not coming to dinner at or about the time Smith fled to Brazil. This in the presence of the president of Brazil FFS. Footage that went round the world.

        If we’d pity the 10 year old on the school trip who screws up the speech of thanks at the dairy factory…….surely we wouldn’t more or less celebrate ?

        This is our prime minister and it’s happens more frequently. Worn with robust disdain, an amalgam of Vaudeville/Monty Python. It trickles down. Until the ‘spectacle’ becomes a melting ‘popsicle’ riding a broken-down ‘bicycle’.

        Hey MSM, you wanna make that the broadly acceptable norm ?

  7. Sabine 7
    4 November 2015 at 10:08 am

    who would not like a few teeth in their stew? And Food Hygiene is for suckers anyways.

    http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2015/nov/03/human-teeth-found-in-meal-served-to-asylum-seekers-on-manus-island?CMP=fb_gu

    or maybe a bit of violence and torture in ‘detention centers’ run by the ozzies

    https://www.facebook.com/KelvinDavisLabour/posts/1068955776469602?fref=nf

    maybe a bit of emotional torture for someone who has completed his sentence for the possession of marijuana, and a lonely death for a partner

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/288326/kiwi-detained-while-partner-dies-alone

    Luckily for us our Dear Leader, now that the rugby is over and the boys are safely back in the country, will be on it. Surely, he will check with his OZ Dear Leader mate to make sure that the kiwis in detention on Manus Island will be treated as humanly as the Saudis treat NZ donated sheep in the desert. Or sum such thing. or maybe not. Oh …look, there is Sir Richies leg to hump.

  9. RedBaronCV 9
    4 November 2015 at 10:23 am

    Having been seen off by Northland, Wellington and the Hawkes Bay Paula Bennet is still going to corporatise councils by bribing with our own money (taxpayer funds) subsidies only if they go to CCO’s right?
    So us ratepayers and taxpayers are looking forward to another round of expensive consultation that we don’t want to fund followed by the transfer of major council assets to undemocratic entities which will be locked in (and Northland is first for the chop).
    Can we transfer the threatened regional assets to a company with the directors being the elected regional councillors and the shareholders being those on the electoral role entitled to vote for said councillors having one share each? Then the provisions of the companies act would click in so that major changes could not be made without putting it to shareholder vote, i.e us ratepayers or changing the wholes companies act? Are there other pre-emptive strategies we could look at – might be a better spend of the money

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11539528

    “Government was proposing a “viable alternative to large-scale amalgamation”. Regions could transfer some core services between regional and territorial authorities. Or they could transfer them to “arms-length” organisations similar to Auckland’s Council Controlled Organisations (CCOs).

    Half of CCOs’ directors are appointed by the council. Mrs Bennett admitted there could be some resistance to transferring core services to less democratic entities. But she said changes would not be forced on regions, and would be community-led.

    The Government planned to introduce law changes next year which would allow the new structures to be “locked in” for the long-term.”

  10. joe90 10
    4 November 2015 at 11:25 am

    Didn’t take Murdochs mob long.

    WASHINGTON, DC (November 3, 2015) – In the opening days of the month when National Geographic magazine is scheduled to be turned over to 21st Century Fox, the magazine’s employees were told to stand by their phones to wait for calls – one by one – to come to Human Resources to learn the fate of their jobs.

    https://nppa.org/node/72817

    • One Two 10.1
      4 November 2015 at 12:58 pm

      NG was compromised some time back

      The magazine cover used ‘conspiracy theories’ as cover for “the war on science” , attacking ” reasonable people”

      The digital age takes deception to a level beyond the capacity of people to understand

  11. Draco T Bastard 11
    4 November 2015 at 11:25 am

    Executive Recalls Booming Private Prison Corporation’s Humble Beginnings As Modest 6-Cell Facility

    “There were times early on when I’d walk down the hall, pass only three or four inmates, and think, ‘How are we going to make it to the end of the month?’” said Parks, recalling several periods in which the company “hemorrhaged money” due to low recidivism, the result of occasional public investment in criminal rehabilitation programs. “Compare that to now, though, when all of our prisons are filled to the gills and we’re housing the overflow on bunks in the gymnasiums.”

    “And what’s more, we’re hiring them all out as manual labor at pennies on the dollar,” he added. “Talk about a success story.”

    Yeah, it’s the Onion…

    • b waghorn 11.1
      4 November 2015 at 11:33 am

      You can dress up what their doing any way you want but that is government assisted slavery pure and simple.

      • Puckish Rogue 11.1.1
        4 November 2015 at 1:23 pm

        You do know what the Onion is?

        • Naturesong 11.1.1.1
          4 November 2015 at 1:46 pm

          You do know the history of prisons in the US?

          • Puckish Rogue 11.1.1.1.1
            4 November 2015 at 1:58 pm

            North Carolina, while without a system comparable to the other states, did not prohibit the practice until 1933. Alabama was the last to end the practice of official convict leasing in 1928.

            I do now

            • arkie 11.1.1.1.1.1
              4 November 2015 at 2:09 pm

              It is illegal to import goods produced by prisoner labour in the US but perfectly fine for them use prisoner labour to create consumer products.

              A significant amount of controversy has arisen with regard to the use of prison labour if the prison in question is privatized, a phenomenon present in a few areas of the United States, where goods produced through penal labour are regulated through the Ashurst-Sumners Act which criminalizes the interstate transport of such goods.

            • McFlock 11.1.1.1.1.2
              4 November 2015 at 2:16 pm

              Maybe you need to know a bit more.

            • joe90 11.1.1.1.1.3
              4 November 2015 at 2:37 pm

              Convict leasing appears to be alive and well.

              Prison labor in the states

              • Minimum wage in the United States, in dollars per hour528: $5.15
              • Average hourly rate paid at a prison camp in Nevada529: $0.13
              • Maximum wage paid to prisoner workers in dollars per day in Georgia and Texas530: $0
              • Most prisons that pay prisoners for work have a range of pay depending on the job. Average of the minimum wages for prisoners paid by the states, in dollars per day for non-industry work531: $0.93
              • Average of the maximum wages paid to prisoners by the states, in dollars per day532: $4.73
              • Lowest wage reported, in dollars per day, for prisoners working in private industry533: $0.16

              http://www.prisonpolicy.org/prisonindex/prisonlabor.html

        • b waghorn 11.1.1.2
          4 November 2015 at 4:33 pm

          Oh I’ve been had….the barstards!! Still many a truth said in jest.

    • savenz 11.2
      4 November 2015 at 12:31 pm

      Free market really working for all!

  12. Ad 12
    4 November 2015 at 11:31 am

    Unemployment up to 6%.

    Not panic time, but would be great to see an actual plan from the Government on this.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11539885

    Looks like stagnation in 2016, not much better in 2017.

    • grumpystilskin 12.1
      4 November 2015 at 11:37 am

      More to the point, I wonder what the real unemployment figure is?

    • b waghorn 12.2
      4 November 2015 at 11:38 am

      Henry talked about that this morning with the money guy and then went to the longest interview I’ve seen him do with key and not one mention of it was made , all they talked about was fucking knighthoods the pair of arseholes.

    • Sabine 12.3
      4 November 2015 at 11:39 am

      make unemployment benefit eligibility so hard that no one applies for benefits. Problem solved.

      • Rosemary McDonald 12.3.1
        4 November 2015 at 12:09 pm

        Yep….a WINZ worker told me add another at least 1%….so many don’t even bother applying. So many involved in the ‘grey economy’….downside of which is not only skewed unemployment stats but also slightly lower tax take. Also undermining labour laws (such as they are) as the ‘job’ does not really exist.

        Methinks this is exactly how Our Leaders want the economy to go….

    • Draco T Bastard 12.4
      4 November 2015 at 11:50 am

      Increasing unemployment is their plan as it helps the capitalists to screw down wages.

    • BM 12.5
      4 November 2015 at 12:01 pm

      Only going to get worse and there’s nothing any one can do about.

      • Sabine 12.5.1
        4 November 2015 at 12:11 pm

        a so thats the type of guy you are? A nothing can be done about nothing type of guy. That is pretty sad, really.

        • BM 12.5.1.1
          4 November 2015 at 12:15 pm

          Automation and people living/working longer are going to be the big issues in next couple of decades.

          I’m not ashamed to say, I don’t have the answers.

          • b waghorn 12.5.1.1.1
            4 November 2015 at 12:34 pm

            Its going to be very interesting to see if Mr Little has a few answers.

          • arkie 12.5.1.1.2
            4 November 2015 at 12:49 pm

            People working longer is already an issue for gen Y workers. There is little chance for advancement within organisations. It’s a tough situation for everyone involved as we all need the money!

            The industries required in the future are the service and aged care industries, it would be helpful if they could offer an liveable wage for the frontline workers who cannot be easily replaced by machines.

            • BM 12.5.1.1.2.1
              4 November 2015 at 1:08 pm

              I agree, a short term solution would be to copy the USA and its service industry driven economy.

              It would involve a complete change of mind set within certain sectors of NZ.

              That is, stopping being a tight arse , opening your wallet and start hiring people to do stuff for you.

              That’s what they have drummed into the Americans, having people doing your chores isn’t a sign of laziness, it’s a form of charity which keeps the economy going and people in jobs.

              • arkie …
                4 November 2015 at 1:18 pm

                I’m not sure the US style is to be emulated as it seems to be entirely predicated on businesses leaving renumeration of their employees to their customers.

                As far as the mindset change goes, employers must be offering wages that reflect the high levels of skill and care that is required to do these kind of service jobs properly, and that needs to start with decent reimbursing of care workers now, which this government and aged care providers seem deadset against. That’s not going to encourage the next generation of workers to enter these industries.

              • Muttonbird …
                4 November 2015 at 1:39 pm

                Haha. “Be more like America.”

                Sounds like a great idea.

              • Sabine …
                4 November 2015 at 2:07 pm

                Well there is no point in hiring people if they don’t get paid enough to live as for example Walmart employment is doing. Or ‘tipped’ servers that earn 2.10$ an hour plus tips that they have to share with bussers, dishwashers and often the cooks.

                As for cleaners, lawn mowers, and house keepers these are probably the some of the oldest jobs on the planet, and should not be treated as charity but as work. The cleaner at the hotel does a full time job keeping the rooms clean, so does the lady that comes to ones own domicile to clean.

                The trouble that we have is not that we don’t have jobs that need doing, we do, ‘the Auckland Transport owned Berms’ that are being mowed free of charge by people having houses behind them comes to mind. We have jobs that need doing, buy that we don’t want to pay for. We – the populace that wants tax cuts, and the current government -that would like to spend money of PR rather then infrastructure, social welfare, education, energy creation. WE could do with more nurses in hospitals, doctors even and decent cooks, we could do with more mental health care workers, we could do with more police and paid fire fighters, early child hood teachers and tertiary teachers, we could do with street cleaners and Park workers, Bus Drivers, Youth workers etc. but no one seems to want to pay for it.

                So no, there is no need for high unemployment other than a wage drive downwards, high competition for the last remaining paid jobs (no matter how lowly they are paid) and the idea that general misery for many makes a virtuous populace.

                How will you survive once you don’t have a job anymore? Ever thought of that? Or are you very very sure in your assumption that you will always have a paid gig, and that that gig is gonna cover all your costs?

              • Draco T Bastard …
                4 November 2015 at 5:53 pm

                I agree, a short term solution would be to copy the USA and its service industry driven economy.

                Nope, that’s the worst thing to do as a service industry doesn’t actually create any wealth. And that is, IMO, why we have such increasing poverty in NZ. We’ve already become too dependent upon low paid services for jobs rather than creating new high value ones in and through R&D.

                That is, stopping being a tight arse , opening your wallet and start hiring people to do stuff for you.

                Thing is, that’s not actually possible as the people hired to do services must be paid lower than the people hiring them which means that only a few percent of people at the top can actually afford to hire others to do services.

                • Nic the NZer …
                  4 November 2015 at 8:58 pm

                  This strikes me as a rather strange view. An economy which is focused on creating ‘wealth’ would seem to me to be a high resource impact economy. I want the opposite, a low resource impact economy. At the same time there seems to be no reason to suggest that economies are degenerating because they are not creating enough ‘wealth’ (what ever that is, I am assuming its real resources organised into useful technology). This suggests a service based industry would be a good thing if it could be organised.

                  The second paragraph is equally strange. There are no such tiered sectors of the economy which require that the service sector must be paid less. One part of the service sector can just the same spend on another part of the service sector. A service based economy could equally have a very flat wage structure. I can see no reason to believe that inequality in the economy had to develop, or is related to an increase in the service economy. Income inequality has been driven by factors unrelated to that, such as high unemployment rates, de-unionisation, and legislation against workers rights.

                  • Draco T Bastard …
                    4 November 2015 at 9:35 pm

                    This strikes me as a rather strange view. An economy which is focused on creating ‘wealth’ would seem to me to be a high resource impact economy.

                    Not necessarily. Generally speaking you want a society producing everything that it needs from it’s own labour and resources. What you don’t want it doing is over producing to produce money which is what we have now.

                    There are no such tiered sectors of the economy which require that the service sector must be paid less.

                    We already have a service economy with our service sector at around 70% of the economy. Please note that around 75% of the population has an income less than the average wage. These people can’t afford to hire services.

                    This is what out present system has delivered and we’re getting more and more services all the time because we’re not developing our economy. Apparently that’s just too hard and costs too much.

                    • Nic the NZer …
                      4 November 2015 at 9:50 pm

                      “Generally speaking you want a society producing everything that it needs from it’s own labour and resources. What you don’t want it doing is over producing to produce money which is what we have now.”

                      This doesn’t differentiate between service and non-service wealth. Also what does over-production mean? In a largely service based economy it appears to mean people providing services to each other. I strongly disagree that is harmful or unsustainable in and of itself. You have been advocating for a UBI, so how is a bunch of people working to produce money any different to them not working and being given a UBI?

                      “We already have a service economy with our service sector at around 70% of the economy. Please note that around 75% of the population has an income less than the average wage. These people can’t afford to hire services.”

                      So arguably there is a correlation there (you didn’t show any real correlation), but this doesn’t mean that there is a cause. What is the supposed causal mechanism meaning a service economy must be highly unequal? We know about many of the causes of inequality in the economy but none of them appear to be that too much of the economy is focused on working on or producing services.

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      4 November 2015 at 10:15 pm

                      Also what does over-production mean?

                      Over production is where excessive use of resources occur. Farming is a good example in that it over uses the land to produce money while not actually providing for our society.

                      In a largely service based economy it appears to mean people providing services to each other.

                      And how does that supply what we need? How is the food grown? How are the vehicles produced? etc. etc

                      Services don’t produce anything. To a degree they’re needed but we’re already pushing to excessive amounts.

                      You have been advocating for a UBI, so how is a bunch of people working to produce money any different to them not working and being given a UBI?

                      The UBI is to allow for people to buy the products of their society. In capitalistic terms, which I don’t like, they could be considered the dividend from simply being a citizen of the country. This overly simplistic though as the purpose of the economy is actually to provide people with what they need to live and thrive.

                      What is the supposed causal mechanism meaning a service economy must be highly unequal?

                      I said that a service economy didn’t work because the wages of service workers needed to come down to the point where they’re living in poverty for the majority of people to be able to afford them but as they’re the majority then they won’t be able to afford themselves.

                    • Nic the NZer …
                      4 November 2015 at 10:53 pm

                      That’s all rather bewildering.

                      So the economy is in a state of ‘over-production’, and its not producing enough of what we need at the same time?

                      I still don’t understand what’s requiring service workers wages to come down or be lower than other sectors in all of this.

                      As far as I can see it would be a good thing if both more people were employed and mostly at higher wages because the economy is quite far from in a state of over-production and also in a state of wide income inequality. And at the same time service industries seem like a good place for them to be employed still as this is mostly less physically resource intensive.

                      I think your getting a bit confused about the definition of the service economy. You realize education is part of the service economy right?

            • McFlock 12.5.1.1.2.2
              4 November 2015 at 1:41 pm

              I suspect that the larger part of the current advancement problem is that people need to hold onto their jobs rather than successfully applying for better ones or risking a business startup (we still haven’t returned to the number of new company registrations in 2009-10).

              • arkie …
                4 November 2015 at 1:56 pm

                You could very well be right, I also think that peoples continuing mortgage requirements into later life also contribute to staying in employment. Also others have mentioned NZ’s (small c) conservatism, and this sort of risk-adverse attitude is probably wise in such ‘interesting times’ as these too!

            • Draco T Bastard 12.5.1.1.2.3
              4 November 2015 at 5:49 pm

              The industries required in the future are the service and aged care industries

              Well, over the next couple of decades until the Baby Boomers start dying off.

              The Baby Boomer demographics are a bulge in the population. Essentially, subsequent births didn’t match and thus scuttled most of the growth in the economy that the politicians had, quite literally, been banking on. An increasing population is always a growing economy even if you don’t get productivity increases.

              it would be helpful if they could offer an liveable wage for the frontline workers who cannot be easily replaced by machines.

              That could easily be done if it was the government directly doing it and we had a sovereign monetary system. The money paid would be directly created by the government to pay the workers and then taxed back out of existence.

          • crashcart 12.5.1.1.3
            4 November 2015 at 1:52 pm

            I know this is a long way out there but how about:

            1. Change the standard work week to be 20 hours instead of 40,
            2. Increase the minimum wage so that those 20 hours are enough to live on,
            3. Put overtime laws back in so that if an employer wants to have one person working more than 20 hours per week it will cost them more.

            Surely this creates a requirement for more employees to do job’s, and the increased money in the bottom end of society which is normally spent straight away increases the earnings of those same buisnesses that will have increased staff costs.

            Again I get this is a loooong way out there and not going to happen. However I think to say it can’t be fixed is a bit far as well.

            • Lanthanide 12.5.1.1.3.1
              4 November 2015 at 3:36 pm

              France dropped their working week to 35 hours from 39 in 2000. The idea is it would increase employment. Critics have pointed out that no real increase in employment has happened, workers are just under more pressure to produce the same amount of output in less time.

              I guess cutting from 40 to 20 wouldn’t have the same sort of problem, because you’d simply have to hire more people. But also this change is so dramatic it will not happen any time in the next 10 years, so you’d be better off focusing on potential solutions that could be implemented, not pie-in-the-sky daydreams.

              • Draco T Bastard …
                4 November 2015 at 9:43 pm

                It seems that the French system isn’t all that good. Workers get rest days rather than overtime rates.

                What I’d like to see is what we used to have – simple penal rates. They would have to apply to people on salary as well though just to make sure they worked as more people are on salary now than used to be.

      • b waghorn 12.5.2
        4 November 2015 at 12:11 pm

        Oh well that solves it then!!

      • Draco T Bastard 12.5.3
        4 November 2015 at 5:15 pm

        Maybe not anyone but the government could achieve full employment in a matter of months. Of course, that would have the business leader whinging again as they were in the 1970s and 80s about about the government taking all the employable people and them thus having to compete for them.

      • Nic the NZer 12.5.4
        4 November 2015 at 5:56 pm

        The undesirably high unemployment rate is a trivial problem for the country to solve. As BM argues later in this thread, you need somebody to employ these people (BM suggests the private sector should just start believing in a service economy, which is a fantasy, its not going to happen). But if the government wants them employed, it could simply employ them and pay them a wage to do something and then your problem is solved. The only problem here is the government doesn’t want them employed so it doesn’t employ them, it leaves them unemployed (its more focused on running a political budget surplus at present, which is why employment is stuck around 5-6% for ages).

        If in addition to solving the unemployment problem the government doesn’t want to put pressure on wage rates, which might push inflation up, then it should only employ people the private sector doesn’t want to employ. So it should pay these people (the ones who are being employed by the government just for the purposes of being employed) only the minimum wage and then the government doesn’t compete with the private sector at all and so this policy causes no inflation at all as well.

        So there you go problem solved. Somebody should probably mention this to Andrew Little.

      • Stuart Munro 12.5.5
        4 November 2015 at 6:27 pm

        Nonsense – this technique has a 25% chance of significantly improving things:

        http://www.nber.org/papers/w13102

    • infused 12.6
      4 November 2015 at 12:58 pm

      Interestingly enough, very few jobs on offer in IT at the moment. That’s normally a warning sign. yeah, it,s end of year, but there’s normally something.

  13. Draco T Bastard 13
    4 November 2015 at 11:52 am

    Self-flying drone learns to avoid obstacles, reaches record speed

    Tradition algorithms capture images at multiple distances to watch for obstacles, meaning the amount of processing power needed will only allow a drone to fly about 6 miles per hour, at most. Barry, however, set his drone to detect only what is 10 meters away.

    “You don’t have to know about anything that’s closer or further than that,” Barry said. “As you fly, you push that 10-meter horizon forward, and, as long as your first 10 meters are clear, you can build a full map of the world around you.”

    Bit of a cheats way of doing it but it’s one of the step you take on the way to full implementation.

  14. marty mars 14
    4 November 2015 at 11:59 am

    International ridicule – worse than being a ‘slave’ eh steve

    Pity we can’t get key stuck in this rapidly setting amber.

    “”Those of you with a marginally broader perspective – say, anyone above the age of eight – may be tempted to pick holes in Williams’ definition of captive servitude. Welcome to The History of Slavery with Steve Williams, in which white men are brutally invited to carry the golf bags of black men, savagely consulted over club selection and putt lines, sadistically given a share of the winnings, cruelly allowed to leave whenever they want,” wrote Jonathan Liew in Britain’s Telegraph.””

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/golf/73663096/new-zealand-caddy-steve-williams-blasted-for-slave-comments-over-tiger-woods

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/golf/tigerwoods/11972102/Steve-Williams-finds-himself-slighted-at-every-turn-but-is-it-any-surprise-after-latest-slavery-comment.html

  15. Clean_power 15
    4 November 2015 at 1:40 pm

    Has New Zealand deported Kim Dot Com yet? If not, why not?

    • infused 15.1
      4 November 2015 at 1:42 pm

      No planes meet the requirements to move him.

      • Chooky 15.1.1
        4 November 2015 at 1:48 pm

        Dotcom is a genius …that is why he is being persecuted…he threatens the monopoly of the corporates

        ‘Meganet’: Kim Dotcom plans crowdfunded replacement to Internet (Ft. Max Keiser)’

        https://futuristrendcast.wordpress.com/2015/06/30/meganet-kim-dotcom-plans-crowdfunded-replacement-to-internet-ft-max-keiser/

        “Kim Dotcom from New Zealand introduces a revolutionary Internet alternative: new non-IP based, non-hackable, surveillance-proof and encrypted network, which will be 100% crowd-funded.

        Max Keiser from Keiser Report interviewed Kim Dotcom, who also talked about NSA spying and his ongoing prosecution by the US government…

        • tinfoilhat 15.1.1.1
          4 November 2015 at 2:38 pm

          🙄

          I would take anything that comes out of Dotcom’s mouth with a grain of salt.

        • Puckish Rogue 15.1.1.2
          4 November 2015 at 2:40 pm

          KDC plans a lot of things, alot of things that don’t come to fruition

          • Draco T Bastard 15.1.1.2.1
            4 November 2015 at 5:20 pm

            Well, it’s better than the usual RWNJ way of not planning anything and then complaining about it not working.

        • Chooky 15.1.1.3
          4 November 2015 at 4:24 pm

          and Part Two: Dotcom is not only a genius , he is also highly moral

          First they came for MegaUpload Dotcom and then they came for Google…but they bit off more than they could chew

          …Dotcom talks about his philosophy, whistleblowers, Wikileaks, Snowden and Manning

          …and the Sony hack/leak which he believes was not done by Google or South Korea …but which exposes Hollywood USA political corruption and which could be used to defend Google

          ‘Meganet’, Part 2: Kim Dotcom plans crowdfunded replacement to internet (Ft. Max Keiser)

      • alwyn 15.1.2
        4 November 2015 at 5:27 pm

        I am sure that there would be something suitable in this list.
        I’m not sure how many of the Antonov’s exist but the US would probably be able to find a Galaxy to move him.
        He might be big but these things are bigger.
        http://www.airforce-technology.com/features/featurethe-worlds-biggest-military-transport-aircraft-4180954/

    • McFlock 15.2
      4 November 2015 at 1:54 pm

      A little annoyance called “due process” is reponsible. You wouldn’t understand the concept.

    • Chooky 15.3
      4 November 2015 at 5:03 pm

      @ Clean_power…A better question: were NZ politicians bribed to persecute/prosecute Dotcom in New Zealand by Hollywood?

      ….as it would appear from the Sony hack/leaks ….. that USA politicians have been bribed by Hollywood to begin the persecution/prosecution of Google for piracy

      …it would appear from the hacks/leaks that Google was facing the very same plotting behind the scenes…accusations/case that was levelled against Dotcom MegaUpload

      …as it doesnt seem to have worked against Google …and in fact there is counter legal action by Google for the political corruption exposed ….where does this leave the NZ government?

  16. Chooky 16
    4 November 2015 at 1:43 pm

    Brave New World : Violent Passion Surrogate (V.P.S.), Violent Market Surrogate, Violent Crowd Surrogate

    “V.P.S is great for keeping people divided over pointless issues and bogged down by as never-ending stream of misinformation and biased interpretations which exist only within a truncated frame of reference” ( urban dictionary .com)

    Cashless society = bank surveillance, data mergers, censorship , state/corporate control ( social engineering, negative interest rates) ?

    Bitcoin = an alternative ( to bankster control) plus future digital privacy ( an alternative to bank blockchain technology)

    All this discussed on the Keiser Report with Tracy and Max and Brett Scott:

    https://www.rt.com/shows/keiser-report/320603-episode-max-keiser-831/

    “Every week Max Keiser looks at all the scandal behind the financial news headlines.

    In this episode of the Keiser Report, Max Keiser and Stacy Herbert discuss Violent Market Surrogates as the doors of misperception in a brave new world in which central bankers are fighting the wrong war. In the second half, Max interviews Brett Scott, author of The Heretic’s Guide to Global Finance: Hacking the Future of Money, about financial surveillance states and cashless societies.”

  17. aerobubble 17
    4 November 2015 at 3:04 pm

    Joyce stand Jackie Blue?down as commissioner in parliament today, can he do that?

  18. Chrys Berryman 18
    4 November 2015 at 3:08 pm

    OK this post is unrelated to the above ,but I was flabbergasted to hear John Key on RNZ this morning saying he was “quite mates” with Richie McCaw…..what the hell is a “quite mate”???????…..someone who you think likes you but your too bloody insecure to go the whole hog and call him a mate……does anybody out there have a “quite mate”or is this a new sort of relationship bond that only our PM indulges in…..?????

    • Sabine 18.1
      4 November 2015 at 3:23 pm

      Maybe Sir Richie, the mighty leg (for leghumpers anyways), is just too polite to tell our most exalted Dear Leghumper that he is not quite mates with with our most exalted Dear Leghumper.

      • Gangnam Style 18.1.1
        4 November 2015 at 6:14 pm

        He also said knighthoods & damehoods have increased in popularity in NZ, tho fuk knows how he figured that out. In the same article he said the royals might join the All Blacks on one of their parades.

        • alwyn 18.1.1.1
          4 November 2015 at 6:37 pm

          The titles were obviously very popular with those who got awards between 2001 and 2008 that entitled them to use Sir or Dame after the titles were reintroduced in 2009.
          There were 85 of them, of whom 72 accepted the titles. That included at least one former Labour MP who must have really annoyed Helen Clark.
          Of the other 13 a couple were “Clayton’s” refusals as they already held the title via other awards. I notice that they never relinquished their prior titles.
          Thus the vote was 72 aye, 11 nay and 2 effective abstentions.
          http://www.odt.co.nz/the-regions/otago/67860/who039s-opting-titular-honour-and-who039s-not

          • Gangnam Style 18.1.1.1.1
            4 November 2015 at 7:40 pm

            Self interest? About sums up the honours system I think. I have never or will ever address anyone as ‘sir’ or ‘dame’. Seems backwards looking to me.

        • sabine 18.1.1.2
          4 November 2015 at 6:42 pm

          it increased amongst the dames and sirs in parnell who would love to hump dear Leghumpers leg and maybe have some hair pulled.

  19. Hami Shearlie 19
    4 November 2015 at 3:59 pm

    I’ve just seen David Cunliffe give an amazing speech in Parliament in the General Debate. Just reaffirming once again why he should still be the Labour Leader. He managed to encapsulate in one rousing speech just what is wrong in NZ, from Stephen Joyce’s appalling management of MOBIE including “blow up sheep”, to the National Party’s manipulation of our media, their dirty politics a la Slater and Collins with the former SFO Head, the Ombudsman’s office failing to compel ministers to answer OIA’s, through to Westpac releasing Nicky Hager’s account details to the police.

    He mentioned all of the journalists who have been removed from prime time television and newspapers who have sought a better home at Radio NZ. He mentioned the person responsible for the funding of Radio NZ is John Key’s former electorate head and wondered how long it would be before funding for Radio NZ would be reduced or stopped altogether.

    This kind of speech from David Cunliffe is why the members are still so angry that the ABC crowd forced him to relinquish the leadership. The public voted in the major newspapers polls that Cunliffe had won most if not all the political debates in the election! So much for him being so unpopular. He just had too little time to establish himself as leader before the election, coupled with hatchet jobs from the media (Armstrong etc) and sad to say, from within!! If David Cunliffe had had the time as leader that Clark or Goff had had, things would be very different in Parliament today. David Cunliffe talked about Key’s “peeing in the shower and in the pockets of the All Blacks”!! Funny and the absolute truth!

    • Chooky 19.1
      4 November 2015 at 4:28 pm

      +100…this also explains why they were so keen to get rid of David Cunliffe

    • Saarbo 19.2
      4 November 2015 at 5:00 pm

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIxSzcoI6Nc

      Very well worth Listening too. Excellent.

      • Anne 19.2.1
        4 November 2015 at 5:18 pm

        Good to be reminded why I supported and voted for David Cunliffe. I also think it was the right thing for David to avoid any limelight for a year after the election. Had he launched any attacks sooner, the DP mob and their media acolytes would have accused him of trying to upstage Andrew Little.

        Now that Little is firmly established and has the total support of every caucus member – plus the ordinary members – I hope Cunliffe will be brought back to the fore of proceedings again. His quick brain and smart rhetorical skills are much in need.

      • Olwyn 19.2.2
        4 November 2015 at 8:31 pm

        Sorry Saarbo – I thanked Hami for putting that clip up but it was actually you who did – Hami did a good summary of what was in it. Thanks. It is excellent.

    • alwyn 19.3
      4 November 2015 at 5:48 pm

      “The public voted in the major newspapers polls that Cunliffe had won most if not all the political debates in the election”
      And then the public voted in the election and showed that the support for him as PM was pretty thin among the voters.

      Were there any real polls done by the newspapers as to who “won” the debates. I am not aware of any. There were of course some of the self selecting variety but I don’t think anyone could take them seriously.
      Can you give me a reference to a professionally run poll that supports your thesis?

      When the journalists expressed opinions, and they are certainly not right leaning as some of the people here seem to believe they wouldn’t support your view would they? For example
      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11318016

    • Belladonna 19.4
      4 November 2015 at 6:23 pm

      Yes it is a shame that David Cunliffe (a) didn’t get support from the ABC crowd and (b) wasn’t given another chance. The current Labour lot are ineffectual. They need to get rid of the traitors and Andrew Little needs to get a backbone. Many people are saying to me they don’t like National but Labour are just the same so why bother voting, wont make any difference. I would like to see David Cunliffe given the finance portfolio as Grant Robertson doesn’t have the credibility IMO.

      • Chooky 19.4.1
        4 November 2015 at 6:39 pm

        all those ABCs who did not support Cunliffe are wannabes with more ambition than talent…we all have a fair idea who they are

        they betrayed the Labour Party membership who voted for David Cunliffe …and they betrayed the Labour Party…and they betrayed the New Zealand electorate

        imo David Cunlffe deserves to be Deputy Leader after Annette King and he deserves to be not only high profile Finance spokesperson but high profile spokesperson for Climate Change issues and Environment ( which are linked to Finance)

        David Cunliffe is an old style New Zealand politician with high integrity

        ( about as far from jonkey nact as it is possible to be)

        If David Cunliffe is given a high profile for the New Zealand Labour Party …its fortunes could turn around…as more and more are seeing through jonkey nact

    • Olwyn 19.5
      4 November 2015 at 7:23 pm

      +100 Thanks for putting that up Hami – it’s such a relief to hear an MP actually tell it like it is. I was shocked by the treatment dished out to Cunliffe when he was the LP leader, and I have not forgotten the heroism with which he hung on, under huge pressure, and forced the leadership question to be taken back to the membership. I too would like to see him restored to a position befitting his talents.

  20. Puckish Rogue 20
    4 November 2015 at 4:03 pm

    http://karldufresne.blogspot.co.nz/2015/11/surprising-as-it-may-seem-i-dont.html

    I stand by all that. My concerns about Hager are essentially twofold: first, that he uses the label “journalist”, with all its connotations of even-handedness and impartiality, to disguise his true purpose, which is that of an ideological crusader; and second, that the publication of his Dirty Politics book was carefully timed to coincide with a general election, in the clear hope that it would cause maximum political damage. But neither of those concerns could be construed as endorsement of any disregard for his rights or violation of his privacy.

    I do, however, share Cameron Slater’s view that the reaction to the latest disclosures exposes a gaping double standard. Where was the media outrage when Slater’s email account was hacked?

    There’s a difference, of course, in that this time it’s an agency of the state that’s digging into someone’s personal affairs. That’s infinitely more alarming than the actions of a rogue private hacker. But Slater is right to point out that the hacker, Rawshark, largely escaped media condemnation – as did Hager, who used the information Rawshark obtained.

    Its a good article

    • McFlock 20.1
      4 November 2015 at 4:38 pm

      If Hager had sat on the information for a couple of years, you guys might have a point about the timing. But he received the information in January and it was published in August. Seems to be a reasonable timeframe.

      The media outrage at slater being hacked was somewhat lessened by the outrage at what those pricks had been up to, and their absolutely contemptable attitudes and behaviour. But then you’ve always had a problem understanding the concept of “public interest”.

      Hager is an invetigative journalist. Just because you don’t like the truths he exposes, it doesn’t mean that if Labour or the Greens were up to the same thing he wouldn’t also report that.

    • Muttonbird 20.2
      4 November 2015 at 5:00 pm

      I do…share Cameron Slater’s view

      – Puckish Rogue

      This is the first bit I read, and I stopped reading there.

    • RedBaronCV 20.3
      4 November 2015 at 6:01 pm

      Not a good article entirely
      – calling Hager and idealogical crusader not a journalist is simply idiotic – the content of his book would be gobsmacking no matter who was doing it – Nact have only themselves to blame that they were in the limelight – and nobody has sued so we can take it that it’s pretty much factually right- personal responsibility there for Nact

      – releasing it to cause maximum political damage – oh please – don’t do it to start with and don’t all MSM outlets write stories and release tehm for best effect.

      Lastly Hager does factual content and investigation, du Fresne does an opinion column, why does the MSm support one but not the other.

    • North 20.4
      4 November 2015 at 9:32 pm

      You seem to suffer from the TVNZ disease which aches as to say that the first imperative is ‘balance’ (as though it were a calculable absolute). “Balance’ is the MOST subjective number and in TVNZ is generally reflected by reporting this and not reporting that, according to a lonely and untested personal sense of what is ‘balance’. Very well paid contenders to the next level of very well paid, even excessive, even obscenely extravagantly paid contenders.

      Why is a child prime minister deemed to be central, reliable, our desired ‘us’ ? If this is ‘balance’……(gulp)……please do not show me imbalance. I am a precariously positioned pensioner. I have impecuniosity and nostrils keen to the stink of shit. Especially that passed on by yuppie Cafe Society wannabes of the Auckland media.

  21. reason 21
    4 November 2015 at 4:50 pm

    @ clean power, infused @ puke rouge …….

    Have they caught the people who killed kim dotcoms swan yet ???? http://www.businessinsider.com.au/kim-dotcom-swan-murder-2015-2

    also all three of you jerks will be very sad to hear that we have not deported Dotcoms nanny s who help raise his children yet …….. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11279059

    …….and I’m guessing your all very comfortable with females to this country being sexually assaulted by our customs officials …… if their crime is visiting Kim Dotcom

    Hell ….. I’d even bet you 3 would join up to be customs officers …… if you could get in on some of that.

    Kim Dotcom was a man who could get things done and had vision in the computer and internet industries …………… Nationals plan was more cows

    Still you 3 keep giving yourself mutual hand-jobs ………….. because you really are wankers 🙂

  22. Draco T Bastard 22
    4 November 2015 at 5:25 pm

    Looks like the race is on to see which nation will have a sovereign money system first:

    The survey results reinforce the Vollgeld Initiative, which currently has more than 90,000 signatures of the 100,000 required to force a binding national referendum in Switzerland. [Update on 2nd Nov: More than 100,000 verified signatures were collected.]

    Iceland is also having such discussions but no indications yet that they going to have a referendum on it.

  23. reason 23
    4 November 2015 at 10:07 pm

    alwyn ………….. I missed your late arrival for the now four-way with your buddies clean power, infused and puke rouge …….

    Like those other trolls you are here to spread misinformation or derail …. and with your comments on Cunliffe you did just that ……. in this instance you left out the dirty politics hatchet job that the Nats cooked up and engineered for the election.

    Cunliffe as most people know was the victim of a national dirty politics hit job involving the usual suspects of Key, Slater, farrar, the herald etc …….. and 1 dishonest dodgy rich immigrant named ‘Lui’ …..who was charged with domestic violence at the time.

    The Herald in particular ran a counterfactual and unsubstantiated smear job on cunliffe and Labor ………………. all sorts of false accusation were put into print …………. Cunliffe was called to resign by Armstrong and others ……………. and the Nats in a pre-planned and coordinated way always referred to Cunliffe as ‘tricky’.

    The truth in the matter which made the story against Labor and Cunliffe counterfactual …………….. Was that John Key and others were around having meals at Lui’s house ……. and picking up $10,000 dollar donations to the national party…..they were the ones associating and taking money from him …… but we never read that in the Herald or elsewhere

    The Slater, Key, Farrar cliche were at the peak of their Dirty politics underhand sleazy tricks when they did their job against Cunliffe …………… but thanks to Nicky Hager we now know how they operate which has hobbled them ……. for the time being.

    The unintended consequences from their shit slinging hit job on Cunliffe was Winston s rising …………

    Winston is of course now sitting in the northland seat ………… courtesy of what could be John Keys dirtiest political act of all regarding one Mike Sabin ………… and who knew what when they knew it going into the general election.

    Personally I think Key will resign before that shit storm hits ……..

    His job is done now that he has signed away our sovereignty with the TPPA ……..

  24. reason 24
    4 November 2015 at 10:18 pm

    one small typo in my post above …….

    Winston is of course now sitting in the northland seat ………… courtesy of what could be John Keys dirtiest political act of all regarding one Mike Sabin ………… and who knew what AND when they knew it going into the general election.

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