Open mike 05/03/2013

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, March 5th, 2013 - 185 comments
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Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

185 comments on “Open mike 05/03/2013 ”

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  1. Jenny 1
    5 March 2013 at 6:19 am

    Climate Change stops here!

    Mangatangi South of Auckland, Fonterra is planning a huge new open cast coal mine.

    While the current Green Party leadership prepare to make their peace with climate change. Ex-Green Party co-leader Jeanette Fitzsimons is actively campaigning against it.

    Fitzsimons has linked up with locals opposed to the mine, who are calling a public meeting for Thursday night, March 7, at the Mangatawhiri hall, off state highway 2, (next to the famous Ice Cream Castle).

    The crux of the argument is that coal adds to anthropomorphic climate change when more sustainable fuels could be used.

    Fonterra’s coalmining company Glencoal has applied for resource consents to develop an opencast coalmine on 30ha of farmland between Mangatawhiri Rd and the new State Highway 2 at Maramarua….

    ….Glencoal has Government permits to mine the new property which, like K3, is expected to yield around 120,000 tonnes of coal a year.

    Stuff.co.nz

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/8380942/Protesters-take-on-Fonterra-over-coal

    • QoT 1.1
      5 March 2013 at 5:46 pm

      prepare to make their peace with climate change

      As always, [citation needed].

      • Jenny 1.1.1
        5 March 2013 at 10:47 pm

        Enough citations for you QoT?

        Sacrificing Principle for Power; The Green Party and Climate Change

        Despite the urgent and pressing need, the Green Party are selling out over climate change.

        The first I heard of the Greens back-peddling on Climate Change was at the last elections.
        People who I know, close to the Green Party, and whose views I trust, informed me that the Green Candidates had been advised, not to mention climate change during their election campaigns by the leadership of their party. The reason given for this directive, was rot them not to appear too radical to the voting public.

        I have since confirmed this direction for self censorship, talking with leading members of the Greens who told me, “We didn’t want to scare the horses”.

        The final proof, of course was the election itself. Which was marked by a lack of public debate on this issue by all parties.

        In 2011, in ignoring climate change, the Green Party, Labour Party and the Natonal Party candidates, behaved very similarly to the 2012 US presidential candidates, neither side wanted to discuss climate change, or what to do about it.
        In the US presidential elections, even an unprecedented Superstorm which interrupted their campaigning could not get Obama or Romney to discuss climate change.

        It looks likely that the Green Party policy of keeping silent on Climate Change is to continue into the next election.

        Climate change was not an election issue in 2011,
        Despite the dangerous urgency.
        Despite the appalling record of the current government on climate change.
        It looks likely that climate change will not be an election issue in 2014.

        If the Green Party do not take this issue up, it looks likely that it will not be raised by any other party either.

        The other political parties: Labour and National will not want to raise this issue either, in case they offend their powerful oil and coal industry donors.

        The proof that the Green Party are continuing their silence over climate change comes from their official website.

        The following is the link to the official Green Party website which sets out all their “Priorities and “Issues”;

        http://www.greens.org.nz/

        The link takes you to the Green Party home page.

        You will immediately notice that for an environmental party, there is no mention of climate change on the Green Party home page. ( It has been this way for months, despite Superstorm Sandy, Superstorm Bopha, and the record breaking Australian heatwave). And the current unprecedented drought being experienced in Northland.
        I find this extremely odd, as climate change has been described as the biggest environmental issue of all time.

        To find any mention of climate change on the official Green Party website you have to really look for it.

        At the top of the Green Party home page: “For The Future” campaign. Clicking on this link to takes you to a page in which there is no mention of climate change.

        There are no other obvious mentions of climate change on the Green Party official home page.

        To find mention of climate change click on the “Issues” tab at the top of the Green Party home page.

        http://www.greens.org.nz/issues

        This sets out the Green Party Priorities for 2011-2014

        Which are:

        100,000 kids out of poverty by 2014
        http://www.greens.org.nz/endchildpoverty

        Our plan to clean up New Zealand’s rivers and lakes
        http://www.greens.org.nz/cleanrivers

        Green jobs for New Zealanders
        http://www.greens.org.nz/greenjobs

        But no mention of climate change

        Not once in any three of these admittedly worthy priorities, is combating the impending danger of climate change mentioned.

        Below the Green Party 3 main “Priorities”. The Green Party say, “Other priorities that we are focussing on include”

        “Keep Our Assets” http://www.greens.org.nz/koa

        “Rebuilding Christchurch” http://www.greens.org.nz/visionchristchurch

        “Conservation” http://www.greens.org.nz/conservation

        “Transport” http://www.greens.org.nz/transport

        “Equal pay” http://www.greens.org.nz/equalpay

        “Fracking” http://www.greens.org.nz/fracking

        “Gambling” http://www.greens.org.nz/gambling

        Again very worthy issues, once again climate change is left out.

        Below the list of Green Party “Other priorities that we are focussing on include”, is a heading;

        “Other issues” http://www.greens.org.nz/campaigns/all

        Clicking on this link shows all the “Other issues” that are not Green Party “Priorities” or even Green Party “Other priorities”

        “Other issues” are set out in alphabetical order, presumably signifying that not one, is of any more significance than the others.

        These other “Other issues” are:

        “Economy”

        “Environmental and resources”

        “Fairness and society”

        “Health and food”

        “International relations”

        “Politics and law”

        Under the second heading in the list under the heading “Environmental and resources”. First up, is climate change.

        However this is misleading, as climate change is only first up, because this list is also set out alphabetically. The only signifcance that climate change has, to the 59 other Green Party “Other issues” is that it starts with the letter ‘C’.

        Despite Naomi Klein’s warning to the left and the environmental movement that climate change has the power to undo all our current campaigns and past victories, the New Zealand Green Party have decided to bury this issue as deep as they can get away with.

  2. Coronial Typer 2
    5 March 2013 at 6:33 am

    Sorry if I haven’t caught up but did anyone hear Shearer on Radio Live yesterday with Garner on asset sales?
    Utterly awful.

    • Chris 2.1
      5 March 2013 at 7:29 am

      Well. That was interesting!

    • tc 2.2
      5 March 2013 at 8:37 am

      consistently awful but what does that matter as long as the mallarfia is happy

    • Mary 2.3
      5 March 2013 at 11:00 am

      Dominion Breweries can have this for nothing: “David Shearer will get better. People should just give him a chance.”

    • Murray Olsen 2.4
      5 March 2013 at 3:18 pm

      Based on that performance, Shearer belongs in ACT.

    • Rhinocrates 2.5
      5 March 2013 at 4:30 pm

      Q: Mr Shearer, do you know your arse from your elbow?

      A: Well, ah… yes,… I wouldn’t be too rash… I mean yes, I have a rash that itches, no, er, I mean I have to, I have an arse, and I have an elbow… two elbows… or one elbow and two arses… though I suppose you mean any elbow…I’m well,… I mean really arses and elbows are… you know, part of the same body, and I don’t think, ah, that it’s quite reasonable to you know, talk about them as if they were different things… I mean even if I do have an arse in the middle of each arm and I sit on my elbow, they’re all part of me… I mean you have arses and an elbow too… and spleens. I breathe with my pancreas. Er… I mean we have to consider glands as well, I’m not sure if you can pile glands up, like dominoes. I mean lego. I know glands are not lego, well I’m not sure glands are not dominoes or lego, but I mean if you had a stack of salivary glands and elbows, you couldn’t , er, make a model house out of them like you can with lego, or dominoes… er, what was the.. oh dear, where’s my bit of paper?

      • Rhinocrates 2.5.1
        5 March 2013 at 4:38 pm

        A bit more seriously, this is just incredible. My flabber is utterly ghasted. Shearer got up and beat his breast about asset sales and now can’t even say why he did that, and is desperately distancing himself from any commitment to hanging on to them. It’s a betrayal, moreover it’s a public betrayal, criminally undermining confidence in his party.

        How on earth can anyone have confidence in this drongo?

        • Mary 2.5.1.1
          5 March 2013 at 7:16 pm

          I just hope there’s more of it and that no PR fix-it brigade comes in and masks his incompetence just enough to hold off his ousting so we’re left with the un-fixable buffoon that he is. Keep going, David, may you reach rock bottom. It’s the only hope we’ve got.

    • cardassian 2.6
      5 March 2013 at 6:38 pm

      I missed it and find the site impossible to navigate around. Could someone be kind and post a link please?

  3. AsleepWhileWalking 3
    5 March 2013 at 7:58 am

    The beautiful Wairarapa; where religion meets bigotry.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/music/8380757/Church-uncomfortable-with-Moas-lifestyle

    • Colonial Viper 3.1
      5 March 2013 at 8:24 am

      And it’s the Green Party who get quoted on this, not Labour.

      • felixviper 3.1.1
        5 March 2013 at 8:41 am

        That’s because there is no place for homophobic attitudes in the Green party.

        • handle 3.1.1.1
          5 March 2013 at 8:52 am

          They know where they stand.

        • kiwi_prometheus 3.1.1.2
          5 March 2013 at 10:29 am

          It’s not a phobia.

          Stop using rhetoric and propaganda, Ms felix. Of course that would mean you would have to dump the nonsense about Feminist “science” etc as well.

          • felixviper 3.1.1.2.1
            5 March 2013 at 10:35 am

            Please point to my comments about feminist science.

          • Colonial Weka 3.1.1.2.2
            5 March 2013 at 10:37 am

            How about ‘sapphic paranoia’ then?

            • kiwi_prometheus 3.1.1.2.2.1
              5 March 2013 at 10:44 am

              How about “aversion to manhaters” then?

              • Colonial Weka …
                5 March 2013 at 11:12 am

                Sure. Can’t say I’ve know that many manhaters though, so I guess you have a very rare condition. Unless you mean aversion to women, in which case we have several useful words already.

                • kiwi_prometheus …
                  5 March 2013 at 11:28 am

                  “Can’t say I’ve know [sic] that many manhaters though,”

                  There’s lots of manhaters around, perhaps your pro Feminist ideological blinkers stop you seeing them?

                  Are you a feminist or a moral relativist?

                  • McFlock …
                    5 March 2013 at 12:16 pm

                    Ever consider the possibility that people hate you because of your own unique personal characteristics, rather than because you’re a man?

                    There might be a good chance of it, unless they say things like “we are uncomfortable with the fact you have a penis”.

                  • Colonial Weka …
                    5 March 2013 at 12:39 pm

                    “There’s lots of manhaters around”

                    That either says something about your personal life, or you need to provide a citation.

                    “There’s lots of manhaters around, perhaps your pro Feminist ideological blinkers stop you seeing them?”

                    Or maybe I just care more about humans than you do.

                    “Are you a feminist or a moral relativist?”

                    Both (non-academically). But not in ANY way that matches what goes on in your head about those things.

    • Dr Terry 3.2
      5 March 2013 at 9:52 am

      True, “religion”, but in this instance not Christianity.

    • kiwi_prometheus 3.3
      5 March 2013 at 10:32 am

      Aren’t you and the pro gay crusaders moral relativists?

      So how can you make a normative statement about what a religious individual objects to?

      • McFlock 3.3.1
        5 March 2013 at 12:28 pm

        Love the way you bung people into categories and then imply inconsistency because they don’t follow the precise category description you dictated.

        • Pascal's bookie 3.3.1.1
          5 March 2013 at 12:40 pm

          And even his categories make no sense.

          A ‘pro gay crusader’ may or may not be a ‘moral relativist’, but if they are they won’t be the type of relativist who ‘can’t make normative statements’.

  4. johnm 4
    5 March 2013 at 8:03 am

    Dispatch from the English class war:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2287402/Healthy-happy-Queen-leaves-hospital-smiling-treated-nasty-stomach-bug.html

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86jb14b-jNI&list=UUGThM-ZZBba1Zl9rU-XeR-A&index=2

    While homeless man freezes to death in Kent to the south east.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sb07UL3olGs&list=UUGThM-ZZBba1Zl9rU-XeR-A&index=4

    The dead man was uncared for scum but the mega rich Queenie gets a bug and everyone’s bowing and scraping, sort of society the market’s shoeshine boy Key wants here. 🙁

  5. AsleepWhileWalking 5
    5 March 2013 at 8:10 am

    WELFARE DISASTER LOOMING AS SERVICE SHUTS DOWN

    BIAS interview on 9 to noon yesterday:

    The Herald headline: Minister defends continued underfunding of beneficiary aid service:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10869162

    Benefit advocates help the government deliver it’s welfare service properly by cleaning up the mess left by overworked (or let’s face it…just bitchy) case managers. They ensure mental health consumers continue to receive welfare. They SAVE the government money by negotiating with Work and Income and preventing review of decisions (costly and time consuming for the ministry).

    This service needs help or it closes in three weeks: http://bais.org.nz/ (website has been hacked so donate page missing !) Might take a phone call or two.
    BAIS is registered as a charity with the NZ Charities Commission: CC10594 so please give these guys a hand.

    IMHO the government should fully fund these. It’s a tough funding environment out there but we can change it by voting with out donations and claiming it via tax back.

    To hear the minister crow about the drips and dribbles of funding benefit rights services are funded on makes me sick. They only stay in existence because the volunteers know what is at stake – everyday people going without in a country with a SOCIAL CONTRACT to support them at their most vulnerable.

    • AsleepWhileWalking 5.1
      5 March 2013 at 8:12 am

      Damn edit function!! Beneficiary Advocacy and Information Service is BAIS, not Bias as I typed.

    • just saying 5.2
      5 March 2013 at 8:30 am

      Thanks AWW.
      Maybe a post in itself?

      • AsleepWhileWalking 5.2.1
        5 March 2013 at 9:37 am

        Yea, does need a voice. Might be better if someone with experience of dealing with BAIS writes it. I’ve only sent them an email once and deal with the Benefit Rights Service (BRS) in Wellington central.

  6. just saying 6
    5 March 2013 at 8:16 am

    An interesting item on msm reporters who are compromised by conflicts of interest in their undisclosed family and friendship connections with politicians.

    http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2013/03/05/full-disclosure-or-do-you-know-where-that-journalist-has-been/

    Note to Bomber –Proofreading – crowd source if necessary. I was also shocked at the recently published edition of ‘Werewolf’ which was so shot through with every kind of error that I wondered if they had accidentally published an earlier unedited version. I’m vehemently opposed to policing this kind of thing in the conversation amongst commenters, but in the format of a magazine or a newspaper, too many typos, spelling, punctuation etc. mistakes jar and detract from credibility, yet they can be corrected without changing the writer’s actual words, one jot.

    God that sounds pendantic even to my ears.

    • Colonial Viper 6.1
      5 March 2013 at 10:18 am

      To me, if you can’t be bothered using good grammar and good spelling to express your ideas, have you actually thought through and value what you are trying to say? And have you even bothered to check the facts that you are using?

      • karol 6.1.1
        5 March 2013 at 10:56 am

        Actually, I don’t think those things necessarily go together, CV. I have often noticed spelling errors in Bomber’s Tumeke posts. Maybe he needs to get someone else to do the proofreading – spelling and written grammar may not be his strong point.

    • Colonial Weka 6.2
      5 March 2013 at 12:50 pm

      +1 js.

      There is a feedback form on TDB 😉

  7. just saying 7
    5 March 2013 at 8:25 am

    This is really interesting:

    At the national election held in Italy last week, a party that is less than three years old gained over 8 million votes, equivalent to one quarter of all votes cast. The party didn’t pay for a single advertisement on television or in the print media. None of its members appeared on television or gave interviews to the Italian press. The party didn’t put up a single hoarding. All of the party’s candidates were complete unknowns, whilst leader Beppe Grillo – who didn’t run for office – hasn’t appeared on national television since 1994. – See more at: http://bat-bean-beam.blogspot.co.nz/2013/03/turn-off-your-computers.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+BatBeanBeam-AWeblogOnMemoryAndTechnology+(Bat,+Bean,+Beam+-+A+Weblog+on+Memory+and+Technology)#sthash.fYfnitFQ.dpuf

    • prism 7.1
      5 March 2013 at 10:36 am

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LPdTXRjIKQ
      A clip from Brewsters Millions where a guy inherits or wins a lot and spends it on lampooning the electoral system.

    • Bill 7.2
      5 March 2013 at 10:48 am

      Interesting (and slightly disturbing) piece on Grillo here too that might interest you.

      http://www.redpepper.org.uk/how-beppe-grillo-stole-the-lefts-clothes

      Let us make clear that this is no victory for the left. M5S is an extremely ambiguous phenomenon. As Giuliano Santoro points out, Grillo and the co-founder of his movement, marketer Gianroberto Casaleggio, are both millionaires with a proprietorial conception of their organisation.

      M5S’s constitution, written by Grillo and Casaleggio, states: ‘The name of the Five Star Movement is attached to a trademark registered under the name of Beppe Grillo, the sole holder of rights on its use.’ These rights have been consistently used to expel anyone who has tried to make the movement more autonomous from Grillo’s personal style of leadership.

  8. KhandallaViper 8
    5 March 2013 at 8:56 am

    Shearer removes every reason for Labour members to fight against asset sales. The Party Leader does not believe in the Asset Sales Campaign.

    He is absolutely clueless and moronic on finance. He has ZERO mention of strategic asset policy.

    He is a ****ing disgeace to the Labour Party. Roll on Christchurch.

    Please Trevor, keep him off the radio, and TV, just like you did in the period prior to the Confidence vote.

    The Duncan Garner show from yesterday is here.

    http://soundcloud.com/whaleoil/david-shearer-um-asset-er-what

    http://www.radiolive.co.nz/Audio.aspx

    • felixviper 8.1
      5 March 2013 at 9:37 am

      I’m sure he’ll get better with more media training.

      And the poll trend? Most likely a rogue trend.

      No really, I’ll do the dishes later.

    • Colonial Viper 8.2
      5 March 2013 at 9:58 am

      These things take time mate. Give Shearer another 6 months. He’ll fire up voters imaginations by then, I’m just sure.

      • Colonial Viper 8.2.1
        5 March 2013 at 10:41 am

        I see even Winston is promising to buy back the power shares at cost.

        http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/8380541/Today-in-politics-Tuesday-5-March-2013

      • KhandallaViper 8.2.2
        5 March 2013 at 11:01 am

        Yep, I’m sure too.

        In fact for the past three years I’ve been sure that Labour would get it right in the next six months. It is teh one ting the Party is consistant about.
        A pity the voters don’t see it that way.

        (the sound you hear is a mixture of hysterical laughter and tearful sobs)

      • Colonial Weka 8.2.3
        5 March 2013 at 11:14 am

        “Give Shearer another 6 months”

        Give Shearer another 21 months 😉

        • Colonial Viper 8.2.3.1
          5 March 2013 at 12:28 pm

          Oh, that’s just so mean!!! 🙂

        • Colonial Viper 8.2.3.2
          5 March 2013 at 12:51 pm

          Assuming a November 2014 election, E-day is only 18 months away. Unless of course you are talking about the normally scheduled February Leadership vote which occurs after each election…which would be exactly 21 months away…

        • Socialist Paddy 8.2.3.3
          5 March 2013 at 2:34 pm

          You mean give fecking Key another three years .

      • Anne 8.2.4
        5 March 2013 at 2:59 pm

        But you two have been saying the same for a lot more than six months!

        • Anne 8.2.4.1
          5 March 2013 at 3:02 pm

          But you two have been saying the same for a lot more than six months!

          edit: reply to felix v and CV.
          (not sure what’s what. Hit reply button and the original came up)

        • Colonial Viper 8.2.4.2
          5 March 2013 at 5:07 pm

          Oh I’m sure it’s just a Jedi mind trick…those polls aren’t really as bad as you think they are…

    • RedLogix 8.3
      5 March 2013 at 11:07 am

      Go easy … Shearer is busy going round the country stirring up apathy.

    • BM 8.4
      5 March 2013 at 11:38 am

      Jesus, that’s terrible.
      I look forward to the election debates, LOL it’s going to be a slaughter.

      • tc 8.4.1
        5 March 2013 at 1:06 pm

        Exactly what the hollowmen wanted, the thought of DC up against Slippery made them go all out helping the mallarfia ensure that’s now not going to happen.

        well meaning dithering inexperienced bloke up against well trained sharky dishonest money trader, shall we lay bets now.

      • Rhinocrates 8.4.2
        5 March 2013 at 5:01 pm

        Q: Who would you rather have as Prime Minister in 2014: David Cunliffe or John Key?

        Robertson, King, Goff, Mallard, Hikins, Curran, Fenton et al: David Shearer – and he will be!

        Q: My question was whether you would prefer David Cunliffe or John Key.

        Robertson, King, Goff, Mallard, Hikins, Curran, Fenton et al: Napoleon!

        Q (rolls eyes): I repeat my question.

        Robertson, King, Goff, Mallard, Hikins, Curran, Fenton et al: Richard the Lionheart, Qin Shi Huang, Augustus, Ramesses II!

        Q (facepalm): I don’t mean DEAD historical figures, my question was-

        Robertson, King, Goff, Mallard, Hikins, Curran, Fenton et al: Gandalf!

        Q (tearing hair): – nor do I mean fictitious characters.

        Robertson, King, Goff, Mallard, Hikins, Curran, Fenton et al (after a brief pause): Historical inevitability!

        Q:What?

        King, Goff, Mallard, Hikins, Curran, Fenton et al (now they roll their eyes): You don’t understand how democracy works do you? Let us put it clearly: Whenever National comes to power due to the foolishness of the people and David Cunliffe, they are punished by that government which then – being aware of historical inevitability, politely cedes power to us in the next term after we have released a sufficient number of press releases. We really don’t see what all the fuss is about.

        Q (staring blankly and speaking in a halting monotone); Um. Yes. Well then… Um. My question remains: Who. Would. You. Prefer. To. Be. Prime. Minister. In. 2014: John. Key. Or. David… Cunliffe?

        King, Goff, Mallard, Hikins, Curran, Fenton et al: JOHN KEY!

        Robertson: ME!

    • David H 8.5
      5 March 2013 at 3:13 pm

      Jesus Christ Shearer’s fucking hopeless. He hasn’t got a clue at all. At the rate he’s going Key could shoot someone on Queen street, at lunchtime and still be re-elected.

  9. muzza 9
    5 March 2013 at 9:05 am

    Let it spray

    NZ inc – Lab Experiment, and how your *friendly* governmental stooges work hand in glove with corporations, to allow it, then cover it up!

    • Rosie 9.1
      5 March 2013 at 11:19 am

      Hey Muzza. Yep, watched that doco last year. Ha! It never ends. Am in the thick of dealing with regional council in regard to an aerial agri chemical spraying co for three breaches of the regulations right at the moment. Don’t want to say too much about that case. Just to add that we have a poor history of health and safety and lax regulation when to comes to using and abusing agri chemicals in NZ.
      “The poisoning of New Zealand” by Meriel Watts (published in 1994) gives some background to that history. There may or may not have been regulatory changes within the years since that book was published but the challenge of holding the likes of monsanto, dowagro, nufarm etc to account remains the same. Bloody tough.

      • muzza 9.1.1
        5 March 2013 at 3:17 pm

        Hi Rosie,

        All the best with that, and thanks for the book tip.

        NZ genuinely has a disgraceful history, on many counts. Yeah there are good people throughout the country, but the sad state of the nation, is now a reflection on all people, including the good ones.

        Keep at it Rosie

        Cheers

      • Rogue Trooper 9.1.2
        5 March 2013 at 4:12 pm

        agricultural spray chemicals killed my father eventually; he was riddled with tumours by 34

        • Rosie 9.1.2.1
          5 March 2013 at 8:59 pm

          So sorry to hear about your Dad RT @ 9.1.2.
          I wonder how many of the generations before us (and indeed those who are still with us) suffered ill health that wasn’t diagnosed correctly and/or early death due to the effect of unsafe practices when working with agricultural or industrial chemicals.
          A relative of mine was one of those victims of a certain notorious timber mill in the Eastern B.O.P. He lived with a chronic work related respiratory illness which eventually took him.
          Still, despite all efforts the “She’ll be right” attitude is still prevelant within our culture. The examples are around us all the time.

  10. prism 10
    5 March 2013 at 10:17 am

    The census – all that effort and the useful and important things that weren’t init!! For instance I do a lot of volunteer work which wasn’t mentioned in this census. All retired people should be barracking for volunteer work to be counted as work and a contribution to society. There has to be action by older people against the 70 age limit to the old age pension, which is what it is in NZ.

    I see being expected to contribute to society in some meaningful way fro the whole of one’s life, but especially when society pays you a pension, as being a reasonable and rational and practical thing which mitigates against the idea of us being self-centred elderly royalty, which many now are at the top end . If we thinking older people don’t get together and present a defence to current thinking and upward age limits most older lives are going to be times of worry and sometimes misery under the Labour push. This is a very TINA mentality – just a repeat of the thinking, or lack of it, in 1984.

    It irks me to see on the form a space for working on the family business for no pay (and also I believe that ‘work’ is counted from the first completed hour). I spend probably about 20 hours a week as a volunteer, which is invisible. Marilyn Waring’s book Counting for Nothing findings still apply.

    No wonder we can’t get ahead in this country – we have good thinkers here but we have pathetic little burkes that talk their way into a profession or money and then bureaucracy or parliament who never realise the breadth of what they don’t know that they don’t know. There should always be pilot schemes testing different ways of managing the country which are formulated from a wide number of ideas and input, and then evaluated against set criteria.

    Listening to Peter Dunne this morning on child support liability and exponential imposts of penalties impressed me on the narrow understanding of the world many of these twerps have.
    He talked about partners having a vendetta against each other as the main reason for not paying. A lot of the time it’s just that they can’t afford to support two households, or they don’t want to, or else they are alcoholics and can’t afford the happy-go-lucky habit and free spending trend that goes with trying to be happy all the time.

    What government doesn’t understand is that often the family is better off without such a role model and the further away with infrequent contact with the other parent, the better for the child’s moral development and the stability and happiness of the family..

    • karol 10.1
      5 March 2013 at 11:06 am

      Indeed volunteer work is very important to society and the economy:
      prism: The census – all that effort and the useful and important things that weren’t init!! For instance I do a lot of volunteer work which wasn’t mentioned in this census.

      question 45:

      Mark as many spaces as you need to answer this question. In the last 4 weeks, which of these have you done, without pay?

      Answer otions include, housework, gardeneing etc; caring for others plus:

      other help or voluntary work for or through any organisation, group or marae

      Other questions include options for unpaid work within family business or farm.

      • karol 10.1.1
        5 March 2013 at 11:08 am

        Ack! need edit function: Should be:

        Question 45:

        Mark as many spaces as you need to answer this question. In the last 4 weeks, which of these have you done, without pay?

        Answer options include, housework, gardening etc; caring for others plus:
        other help or voluntary work for or through any organisation, group or marae

        Other questions include options for unpaid work within family business or farm.

        [Click to Edit | Delete]

        • prism 10.1.1.1
          5 March 2013 at 12:47 pm

          Thanks karol
          It is in my mind though that volunteer work for the community has been listed separately in a previous census. Unpaid work within family business or farm is merely working for your own interests, your household or wider family – not the same thing. I think it isn’t sufficient to just have community or volunteer work touched on so generally. There isn’t a question of how many hours, just whether done ever in the last 4 weeks.

          And working at housework gardening without pay is what people do for each other in their own home. If it is supposed to mean – for other people outside your home it should say so. The census isn’t worded so as to find really useful statistics. For instance it would be interesting to ask – how many women are home nearly all the time caring for children or other family members – on maternity leave for a year, or working for pay part-time under 15 hours, working for more than 30 hours with children in child care? How many men? How many grandparents are caring for grandchildren regularly? How many hours per week.

          There are things we ought to know if we were a functioning vital people-embracing country. But sadly we embrace businesses that can boost our politicians and entertain us, we would rather have a matinee idol cracking jokes and finishing every sentence with a confident ‘No worries mate, it’ll work out fine” than a thinking, caring pragmatic person who has buckteeth and a hunchback.

          • karol 10.1.1.1.1
            5 March 2013 at 12:57 pm

            prism, yes there could be more specific questions about hours, etc. However, qu 46 does ask about housework, gardening, etc, within your household, and separately asks about caring for a child, with your household, and not in your household, plus separate questions about caring for someone with illness or disability within your household and not in your household.

            There is a separate question elsewhere asking if you are on the DPB, and of course, separate questions about paid and unpaid hours worked.

            There also needs to be a balance between the number of questions asked, and the amount of meaningful information sought.

    • alwyn 10.2
      5 March 2013 at 11:11 am

      You mention in the first paragraph that
      “There has to be action by older people against the 70 age limit to the old age pension”
      I don’t understand what you are talking about. Can you please clarify what this is?

      • prism 10.2.1
        5 March 2013 at 1:08 pm

        alwyn I’ve read your posts before and you often don’t understand. Seems you have a lot of thinking and learning to do. So by all means keep asking and someone will help. I usually can get info and different points of view here.

        You have heard surely alwyn that Labour is talking about raising the age limit for receiving superannuation (old age pension under a fancy name) to 70 years, probably over a period of years? I have been thinking of the unpleasant results to the people affected and have decided I am against it.

        Google says on the meaning of the word superannuation
        1 Regular payment made into a fund by an employee toward a future pension.
        2 A pension of this type paid to a retired person.
        As NZ pays out of current taxation the income support for retired people, this is not superannuation. But everyone likes that word better than old age pension which is not a cool term especially to the wealthy.

        The reason for paying all old people from current taxation, to add to your putea of knowledge, is that it is hard to build and maintain solid funds going forward! that match inflation when conservatively invested. And before we tackled inflation which at one time was rampant, it was impossible. Now the Super Fund is trying to build up a fund to limit the shock when an extra lot of baby boomers come to The Age. Company pension funds also are difficult to maintain because they are notoriously tempting to dip in to by those high up in the company having risky investments going belly-up or yacht and mansion house maintenance problems.

        • alwyn 10.2.1.1
          5 March 2013 at 1:51 pm

          Thank you for replying, at least.
          However just how I was expected to connect the statement you made to Labour’s last election policy is rather a stretch.
          Your statement, and I quote it in full, was “There has to be action by older people against the 70 age limit to the old age pension which is what it is in New Zealand.”
          For your information “what it is in New Zealand” at the moment is 65, not 70.
          What labour proposed was that it be raised to67, not 70 and that the age of 67 would not be reached until 2033. How that becomes 70 now, which you appear to believe, is rather unclear.
          As to the rest of the response you made, my only addition would be to suggest that it is just as hard for the state to maintain a fund as it is for a company. If you don’t understand that have a look at the tribulations of the various state and city super schemes in the USA, many of which are insolvent.
          I don’t trust ANY politician with access to funds such as the Cullen fund, which is in theory supposed to pre-fund superannuation. One has only to read material on the Green party blog, or web-site, to see all the hare-brained ideas for spending the fund. Alternatively just read the material on this blog for how to spend the money on non-productive assets.
          Incidentally you can’t really pre-fund superannuation for anybody. Any consumption by a non-working person must be from production by a currently working one. Imagine if every single person was retired. Just where would the goods they wish to consume come from?

          • prism 10.2.1.1.1
            5 March 2013 at 8:49 pm

            alwyn I said that the old age pension is what we have in NZ. And I made the point that it is not actually superannuation. And the 67 year limit has often been stated to be just a step on the way to 70 years.

            And you appear to be in a bog not a blog as you don’t like government funded pensions and you are vague about the value and sustainability of company and government funds alike. Oh dear, we are up the creek without a paddle in this case.

            • alwyn 10.2.1.1.1.1
              6 March 2013 at 9:46 am

              Last comment on this (at least by me).
              Of course it is an old age pension. However evryone calls it National Superannuation so why shouldn’t we?
              OK, no doubt there are people who say we should move to 67 or 70 or whatever.
              You however said it was 70 NOW, not some vague option for the future. Perhaps you are like a Maths Prof I used to have who said that “one is just a first approximation to infinity”
              I do like Government pensions. In fact I regard them as an essential thing to ensure that the elderly have an income in retirement. People can try and invest to help with their retirement but I think a basic state supplied old age pension is the only way to keep a significant portion of the elderly from penury.
              I am not “vague” about the value and sustainability of pensions at all. I know that there will be a proportion of investments that become worthless and that some company schemes in particular that will fail, for any of a number of reasons. They don’t all happen because of people like Robert Maxwell. Some are just bad luck.
              I don’t think that trying to build up massive funds, under Government control will work in the long run. I do not trust politicians to leave them along. They want to interfere in the investment decisions to fulfill their own little dreams. Look at the people on this blog who want to say where the Cullen fund should put its money. Everyone thinks that hey know best. You’ve seen it, haven’t you?
              My final comment about it being logically impossible to pre-fund pensions for all, without affecting those who are working when the pension is paid, is of course true. It is merely an example of something that is true for an individual is not necessarily true for society as a whole.

              • Colonial Viper …
                6 March 2013 at 9:53 am

                I don’t think that trying to build up massive funds, under Government control will work in the long run. I do not trust politicians to leave them along. They want to interfere in the investment decisions to fulfill their own little dreams. Look at the people on this blog who want to say where the Cullen fund should put its money. Everyone thinks that hey know best. You’ve seen it, haven’t you?

                Shit dude, so you trust bankers, finance companies and Wall St to look after your investment funds instead?

                The NZ Government is 100x more solid than any of those agents buddy.

                • alwyn …
                  6 March 2013 at 11:19 am

                  Oh dear, I said I had finished commenting on this subject but I can’t resist.
                  No I don’t “trust” them at all.
                  I think that Cullen set up the fund for the wrong reasons, which is a separate matter, but at least he did his best to keep the investments out of the hands of his fellow politicians. They always say that a poacher makes the best gamekeeper.
                  That is the structure of the “Guardians of New Zealand Superannuation” (or whatever they are called) who pick the people who will invest the assets. They are supposed to be independent of the politicians. Unfortunately the bigger the pot gets the more temptation there is for the Poly’s to interfere. Even John Key got in at one point when he suggested that a certain percentage should be invested within New Zealand. Luckily he seems to have thought better of that. The Green party are probably the most interested in choosing the investments of course. Certainly they are worse than Labour.
                  In terms of having bankers, finance companies etc looking after my investment funds, no I don’t trust them. This is one of the flaws in Kiwisaver where you are required to have your Kiwisaver investments with one of these organisations. That is where the Australian superannuation system is better. People are allowed to manage them themselves. Not that great a percentage do but you CAN do so. Why can’t we have that here?
                  In terms of the Government part of Superannuation, or the universal old age pension, I don’t think we need a fund at all. Pay it out of current taxation, however that is raised. As I said, wherever it is being paid from it is being provided by those who are working at the time it is spent.

              • prism …
                6 March 2013 at 1:39 pm

                alwyn
                I didn’t say it was 70 NOW. I did manage to incorporate two things in the one sentence in an unclear manner. So sorry. I’ll keep sentences shorter from now on.

    • Draco T Bastard 10.3
      5 March 2013 at 12:09 pm

      There should always be pilot schemes testing different ways of managing the country which are formulated from a wide number of ideas and input, and then evaluated against set criteria.

      That’s what universities are for and these pilot programs could then be tested at the local government level and filter up. Unfortunately, our central government tends to think it knows best especially when under control of the National Party.

      What government doesn’t understand is that often the family is better off without such a role model and the further away with infrequent contact with the other parent, the better for the child’s moral development and the stability and happiness of the family.

      And that comes back to that false right-wing ideology that the family is more important in a child’s life than anything else even when it is dysfunctional.

      • prism 10.3.1
        5 March 2013 at 1:21 pm

        DTB
        True about universities, but this bunch once they started to read, went straight on to textbooks that gave improving stories about how to make money. They went to university to do business courses or ones that fitted their conservative brains and just reinforced all their prejudices while there. And probably met their future partner there and parented more self-centred little know-alls.

        And that’s what is important in a child’s life for them to achieve a comfortable lifestyle. And the rest can go scrabble for what they can get and be punished for not being wealthy.

        Interesting how the National Party goes in for Central Planning. I thought they considered that was a Communist disaster – the Five, Ten Year Plan etc. And the Great Leap Forward.

        We did have a Great Leap in 1984 of course followed by strides in other years and have now sunk to incrementally and sneakily removing screws from the body politic and NZ Inc and soon the muffler may fall off, or the crankshaft will be flat (quoting Toad from Wind in the Willows).

        It does pay to view the whole enterprise of NZ under the mendacious politicians as a sweeping filmic epic and then you’re so busy waiting for the next fascinating instalment that you don’t realise that you’re the featured actor and it’s your house that is in flames.

        • Rogue Trooper 10.3.1.1
          5 March 2013 at 4:16 pm

          personally (in case you were wondering)
          -Mon, community meal
          -Tues, foodbank
          -Wed, counsel
          -Thurs, counsel
          -Everyday, grow veges to distribute around the “cul-de-sac”

          • prism 10.3.1.1.1
            5 March 2013 at 8:52 pm

            You’re a real trooper Rogue. Do you counsel others, or go to counselling yourself on Wed and Thurs?
            Growing veges everyday sounds interesting. Have you followed the city gardens movement I think mainly in parts of the USA?

            • Colonial Viper 10.3.1.1.1.1
              6 March 2013 at 12:02 am

              Rogue Trooper (from AD2000) had his unit violently betrayed by the very top. He then spent years on foot, trudging and fighting through the chemical wastelands of Nu-Earth, to find those responsible for the massacre of the people he cared about. Awesome.

    • mikesh 10.4
      5 March 2013 at 7:39 pm

      I don’t see why they need names and addresses. I don’t recall providing that information previously, though of course it has been seven years since the last one and I may be wrong. I would have thought they would only be interested in the numbers in the various categories, not the identities of the persons concerned.

    • kiwi_prometheus 11.1
      5 March 2013 at 11:32 am

      That’s funny.

      Apparently she operated some cult like think tank / educational outfit in NY.

      Can see why the free market zealots are in love with her.

      [lprent: Your comment pattern this morning looks like a troll. You seem to be haranguing people trying to start a flame war. If you want to discuss something then write something substantive about what your topic for others to disagree with. Don’t just harass with assertions that you provide no backing for. I can, if you’d prefer, demonstrate on you why that tactic isn’t a good idea for “debate”. Your choice really.. ]

  12. Colonial Weka 12
    5 March 2013 at 10:39 am

    Comment editor seems to not be working. Loads as ‘comment successfully loaded’ and blank text boxes.

    • Colonial Weka 12.1
      5 March 2013 at 9:27 pm

      Don’t seem to be able to delete posts either.

      • lprent 12.1.1
        5 March 2013 at 10:58 pm

        Same system – re-edit. There is hopefully a chorus tech coming in to look at my network link on behalf of Orcon support (who have spent the last week getting upset after I told them that I wasn’t happy about factory resetting my Genius). At present the link is reconnecting every 15 minutes or so.

        I’m looking for a new network supplier. Anyone got bad things to say about Actrix?

        I can only get ADSL+ at present. The UFB in Grey Lynn doesn’t appear to go into apartment blocks.

        I just have to stop being social and going to weddings and the like to get some more time. I really need some time off..

        • Draco T Bastard 12.1.1.1
          5 March 2013 at 11:26 pm

          At present the link is reconnecting every 15 minutes or so.

          I had that. Lasted for about a week. Orcon finally decided that I was right and that a tech needed to be sent out (it really is irritating trying to explain to the helpdesk staff that I actually know more about the network, fault finding and the processors than they do). On the day the tech was came my internet went down for about two hours and then came back up rock solid but at only 5mbps. For it to be down that long I figured that they must have been doing some work on the cabinet or possibly the exchange (not bloody likely) but the tech didn’t know if anybody was working on the cabinet – he wasn’t – but he turned up a couple of hours after my internet came back up. He replaced a couple of connectors in the DP and I got 17mbps back.

          I’m looking for a new network supplier. Anyone got bad things to say about Actrix?

          The problem is that you’re not dealing directly with Telecom. When an ISP sends a Telecom tech out and there’s nothing found to be wrong with Telecoms network they get charged a huge amount and so the ISP will work very hard not to send out a tech. It results in poor service.

          • lprent 12.1.1.1.1
            6 March 2013 at 8:24 am

            Yeah it is a problem. But supposedly Chorus isn’t part of Telecom any more….

            The reason I moved from Telecom many years ago was because their plans sucked* (and I see they still do), but most importantly because it always took a bloody long time to get through to anyone who knew what my problem was – usually routing or network connection.

            $14/mo for national calling OR 24c/min? WTF.

  13. Pascal's bookie 13
    5 March 2013 at 1:19 pm

    wanna know how much Parata’s bad relationship with Lesley Longstone cost?

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1303/S00061/lesley-longstone-severance-payment-released.htm

    • David H 13.1
      5 March 2013 at 3:29 pm

      Near half a Million bucks thats obscene.

      • Arfamo 13.1.1
        5 March 2013 at 4:29 pm

        I know. It’s insane. In most circumstances if your boss doesn’t think you’re doing the job right, or if you don’t think the boss is doing the job right, you end up when you leave with a couple of weeks pay. Can’t understand why the hell you get a fortune to leave at the top end of the business in the same situation.

  14. joe90 14
    5 March 2013 at 1:57 pm

    This’ll cause a few nightmares.

  15. Chris 15
    5 March 2013 at 1:57 pm

    So. According to leighton smith it is really good that teachers are out protesting as it is preferable to them being in the classroom “spreading misinformation” According to the information I heard the teachers were doing it BEFORE school so as not to disrupt their classes.I get really annoyed with these radio has- beens who do not even take the time to get their facts right. Was in my daughter’s car so took a while to find the knob to turn the KNOB off.

  16. Tim 16
    5 March 2013 at 2:22 pm

    You know what? …. WOT! said fred.
    I look at all the various categories of posts on here: ‘Throw another Mill on the Barbie’; The constitutional ….etcetera; Asset sales et al.
    WHERE THE FUCK IS LABOUR?
    missing in action, and quite probably having a lay down (gathering their strength of course for some pathetic assault in future).
    A Main Stream Media of a right-wing bent, a piece of journalistic couch material disguising herself amongst the various fabrics that create one-off wearable wardrobes – hell bent on a bit of rough-trade.
    FFS there’s a cliff that saw herself amongst an era long gone (bring up the African drums).
    You probably don’t get it atm. QUITE OBVIOUSLY neither does Trev, but prepare yourselves for the aftermath.
    I hadn’t been aware that Trev n Jane as an item were public knowledge (as I’ve seem elsewhere)., but their positions as representaives – FIRSTLY as politicians, and secondly as representatives of a supposed 4TH ESTATE, pretty much says it all.
    No no no, these are also the people I expect to be the folk that squeel like pigs in the not-to-distant

    • gobsmacked 16.1
      5 March 2013 at 4:00 pm

      Shearer has been in most of the MSM, over the past 48 hours. Today he was doing Newstalk ZB, Radio NZ, yesterday Radio Live, etc.

      So let’s be fair. He’s been seen and heard in the media. Unfortunately, that’s when the problems start …

    • Bill 17.1
      5 March 2013 at 3:41 pm

      Em – er -yes…indeed. Maybe. Hard to tell really.

    • Blue 17.2
      5 March 2013 at 3:49 pm

      Pretty sure that doesn’t link to what you think it links to…

      • Murray Olsen 17.2.1
        5 March 2013 at 3:59 pm

        I hope you’re right there, Blue.

        • McFlock 17.2.1.1
          5 March 2013 at 4:10 pm

          much lols! For the census and gender thread, for those who didn’t pick it.

          And now for something completely different

          • McFlock 17.2.1.1.1
            5 March 2013 at 4:11 pm

            Checks – yes, that’s the one 🙂

            Also just checked me work emails – fortunately that cut&paste error was the only one. Could have made for some interesting discussions, though 🙂

            • Colonial Viper 17.2.1.1.1.1
              5 March 2013 at 4:17 pm

              4 press releases and the number which have newsworthy statements is…

              Good that Christchurch recovery is so important, too bad they demoted their key Christchurch MP to Siberia

              • McFlock …
                5 March 2013 at 4:36 pm

                oh, sorry – forgot you were playing “Fantasy Politics”, with your pick for team labour having a different line-up under Captain Cunliffe.

                The point being that the “missing in action” rhetoric is just more bullshit. Like the “Siberia” line.

                • felixviper …
                  5 March 2013 at 5:21 pm

                  My pick for team labour has a different line-up regardless of who the leader is.

                  I wonder how long it will take until you lot figure out that criticism of Shearer and his decisions has bugger all to do with Cunliffe or anyone else.

                  • McFlock …
                    5 March 2013 at 5:38 pm

                    Are we all talking exclusively about you again? Joy.

                    • felixviper …
                      5 March 2013 at 5:46 pm

                      Nope, and a weird thing to say McF.

                      Am I not allowed to add my 2c to this thread?

                    • McFlock …
                      5 March 2013 at 9:32 pm

                      Just making sure. I seem to recall that last time Hopefully that goes to “reshuffle for unity” – on my form so far today it’ll probably go to an obscure statsNZ paper on ethnicity and the census) we ended up talking at cross purposes past each other because you thought my comments about recurring themes in comments here were comments about specific quotes you make.

                      If we’re not talking specifically about you, chapter and verse, then a lot of the time here I think that people are letting their disappointment that Cunliffe isn’t leader affect their assessment of what labour and Shearer are doing or saying. Just because a tory MSM aren’t picking up doesn’t mean that Labour are doing nothing.

                    • felixviper …
                      5 March 2013 at 11:10 pm

                      “a lot of the time here I think that people are letting their disappointment that Cunliffe isn’t leader affect their assessment of what labour and Shearer are doing or saying.”

                      Meh, maybe so. It’d be a lot more convincing if the general public as polled and surveyed didn’t generally agree though, wouldn’t it?

                      Unless the polls and surveys are also heavily weighted toward embittered Cunliffe supporters of course, but I don’t think that’s any more likely than people on this forum saying they don’t think Shearer and Labour are much good for any other reason than, well, that they don’t think they’re much good.

                      “Just because a tory MSM aren’t picking up doesn’t mean that Labour are doing nothing”

                      Lolz. The tory msm have been Shearer’s biggest cheerleaders all along.

                    • McFlock …
                      6 March 2013 at 1:02 am

                      Really? The polls show us that Labour are shit at getting media coverage?What do the polls show us, really? The Labour needs to be more like National? Oh dear, in that case Shearer is indeed doing a shit job. Or maybe Labour need to be a counterpoint to National? In that case, Shearer and labour are shit the other way. Or maybe that it’s not all about whatever Labour does, but other shit counts too? Like National’s strategy of isolating key from competence and responsibility, or the fact that a lot of traditionally “left” people love to shit on Labour and Shearer, both the MSM commentariat and “left wing bloggers”?

                      Polls tell us what is, not why. They tell us, for example, that things are improving for labour, if sluggishly.

                      I’ve no idea if the MSM are picking up Labour inputs or not. Tim reckoned they were “missing in action”. I actually watched the late news tonight, saw hipkins and shearers on the longstone thing. And shearer on the mighty river thing. No idea what tim was talking about.

                      But whatever, between 2pm and 1030pm the MSM suddenly started interviewing the labour front bench to support Shearer from Tim’s scathing attack, or I suggest that Tim’s own perception bias is at fault.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      6 March 2013 at 1:21 am

                      For a non-Labour supporter I always enjoy your unfailing (although mostly oblique) support of the current Labour/Shearer orthodoxy.

                    • McFlock …
                      6 March 2013 at 1:32 am

                      I usually find it pretty funny, too.

                      It’s almost like people are too lazy to add Labour and Greens and Mana, and draw a shallow line between now and mid-2014.

                      Labour are necessary but not sufficient for a left wing government, regardless of their specific poll result. Their internal politics are largely irrelevant, bar shit overflowing and poisoning the public sphere (e.g. a repeat of the chris carter bs).

                      Nothing is assured, but I don’t see any reason for overly aggressive capitalisation of comments, bizarre analogies of death or hardship, or allegations that Labour are absent, sleepwalking or phoning it in.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      6 March 2013 at 1:39 am

                      Labour is a centrist market oriented party focussed on the votes of median and upper income households. Labour may be part of a left wing government, but since it’s instincts are centrist and market driven, that government will not be left wing because of it.

                      or allegations that Labour are absent, sleepwalking or phoning it in.

                      So you don’t think that those allegations hold water?

                      Feel free to keep setting the bar so fucking low that even a Chihuahua running by is gonna get a concussion.

                    • McFlock …
                      6 March 2013 at 1:59 am

                      Labour will not be the entirety of the next government, even if it might be Labour-led. Assuming that a labour-led governent will be the same as a labour 50%+ sole government is not realistic.

                      Labour aren’t absent. They are issuing releases, being interviewed in the press, and getting out and about.

                      Labour aren’t sleepwalking or phoning it in: those imply that Labour don’t really want to be in government.

                      They are plodding, lack fire and need a bit of an imagination transplant. They have some MPs that are a bit weak and lack experience, from what I see. They have a risk-averse media strategy and have too small a team looking for deficiencies or innovation in new policies – in fact I might go so far as to say there is little or no contingency anticipation at the tactical policy level, and possibly too much policy conservatism at the strategy level. And most of them, including Shearer, need to have like a daily spitballing session where they look at their interviews and think of how they could have done better, or what they would have said in their colleague’s place.

                      But the thing is, I don’t get worked up about those shortcomings that I see. Because left ain’t labour, labour ain’t the left, and the smaller parties will provide the guts that labour currently lack.

                    • felixviper …
                      6 March 2013 at 6:23 am

                      Really? The polls show us that Labour are shit at getting media coverage?What do the polls show us, really? The Labour needs to be more like National? Oh dear, in that case Shearer is indeed doing a shit job. Or maybe Labour need to be a counterpoint to National? In that case, Shearer and labour are shit the other way. Or maybe that it’s not all about whatever Labour does, but other shit counts too? Like National’s strategy of isolating key from competence and responsibility, or the fact that a lot of traditionally “left” people love to shit on Labour and Shearer, both the MSM commentariat and “left wing bloggers”?

                      lolwut? Was that directed to me? ‘Cos all I said was that people don’t seem to think much of Shearer and Labour at the mo.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      6 March 2013 at 10:42 am

                      McFlock reckons people who think that must have some irrational, illogical dislike of Shearer.

                    • McFlock …
                      6 March 2013 at 1:03 pm

                      Actually fv, you also speculated as to why the polls might begiving the results that you appealed to.

                      In case you hadn’t noticed, we had been talking about why people weren’t into labour. I think the general population has slightly different reasons for their poll results than e.g. shearer didn’t promise to renationalise telecom today, he must be a neoliberal, cunliffe would have done it by now

                • Socialist Paddy …
                  5 March 2013 at 7:06 pm

                  So the senior lawyer in Labour’s ranks, the Christchurch MP that has worked tirelessly for the area gets told that she has to go for the sake of “renewal”.

                  She did nothing wrong.

                  The decision to demote her was utu for not kissing Shearer’s arse.

                  • felixviper …
                    5 March 2013 at 7:49 pm

                    Not to worry, still got Shane Jones eh?

                    • Socialist Paddy …
                      5 March 2013 at 7:56 pm

                      Aye.

                      Half of the hardened left activists may have fucked off but they rejoice because they still have the magnificence of Shane Jones.

                      JM&J.

                    • Rhinocrates …
                      5 March 2013 at 8:08 pm

                      Soon to be joined by John Tamihere! Start drinking those pints of Brut 33 and Party like it’s 1975!

                  • Rhinocrates …
                    5 March 2013 at 8:01 pm

                    Or his elbow, since he can’t tell the difference.

                  • Colonial Viper …
                    5 March 2013 at 9:38 pm

                    According to McFlock, Dalziel being demoted to “Siberia” by Shearer is an irrelevancy.

                    He probably thinks it’s renewal etc.

                    • McFlock …
                      6 March 2013 at 12:41 am

                      Nah mate.

                      I just think comparing the back benches at however many hundred $k p.a. with a multi-week train ride to a barren wasteland, starvation diet, overwork, and subzero temperatures is a bit, well, …, a bit shit, really.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      6 March 2013 at 12:46 am

                      One of Labour’s most experienced MPs, who has been doing a great job advocating for her constituents in a destroyed city, gets rewarded by being shoved down the rankings.

                      If that’s not political Siberia I don’t know what it is.

                      (Hey you didn’t think I was meaning actual geographical Siberia, did you? btw I know people from there and they think that it’s a fine place).

                    • McFlock …
                      6 March 2013 at 1:16 am

                      Oh noes, she’s got a different seat in the house and only a base MP salary! Fuck, that makes a comparison to the Gulag Archipelago totally reasonable!

                      I got that it was an analogy. I just think it was an analogy that was stupid, irrational, lacked perspective and actually sort of ilustrated my point that the major problems people here seem to have with Shearer and Labour probably come from the commenters’ own lack of rationality and perspective.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      6 March 2013 at 1:25 am

                      You’re blind as a bat mate.

                    • McFlock …
                      6 March 2013 at 1:36 am

                      must be snowblind, being an oppressed mass in Siberia and all. Fuck, I must be, seeing as I’m on a fraction of her salary and can’t make speeches in the house.

                      Maybe the analogy you could have used was “sin binning” – off on the sidelines for a bit, but still able to get back into the game if you’re prepared to play reasonably.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      6 March 2013 at 1:41 am

                      Fuck, here comes the analogy police

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      6 March 2013 at 1:43 am

                      Hey please explain on what grounds you think Shearer judged that Lianne Dalziel was not fulfilling her role as a Labour electorate MP “reasonably”.

                    • McFlock …
                      6 March 2013 at 1:46 am

                      inorite? It’s like the ge5tapo.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      6 March 2013 at 1:54 am

                      More like the Ministry of Public Enlightenment

                    • McFlock …
                      6 March 2013 at 2:00 am

                      now you’re sounding like vto

                    • McFlock …
                      6 March 2013 at 2:04 am

                      Hey please explain on what grounds you think Shearer judged that Lianne Dalziel was not fulfilling her role as a Labour electorate MP “reasonably”.

                      How the fuck should I know? I’m not in caucus. I know it’s not because she chose sides against Shearer, because there wasn’t an alternative challenger for the leadership.

                      But her demotion sounds like, oh, a demotion to an important and well-paid position, not a train ride to Siberia.

                    • felixviper …
                      6 March 2013 at 6:31 am

                      Ignoring all cold war analogies, she was demoted and it’s not unreasonable to want to know why.

                    • McFlock …
                      6 March 2013 at 2:21 pm

                      Indeed. If that’s what rocks your boat. But frankly it could well be unreasonable for a party leader to explain every placement decision to bloggers.

                      And cv asking me for speculation was just stupid.

      • Bill 17.2.2
        5 March 2013 at 4:12 pm

        Oh, I dunno. The lack of concision, the ambiguity and general confusion is all kind of apt, don’t you think?

        • McFlock 17.2.2.1
          5 March 2013 at 5:06 pm

          What’s apt is describing a simple and obvious clipboard error as “lack of concision, the ambiguity and general confusion”.

  18. Pete 18
    5 March 2013 at 3:11 pm

    I’m horrified by this case of torture in Fiji and I really want our government to bring more pressure to bear on the regime in those imprisoned islands.NZ eased sanctions in 2012. Clearly that was a mistake. Restore them and extend them.

    • Murray Olsen 18.1
      5 March 2013 at 3:35 pm

      But Fiji is WhaleSpew’s favourite democracy and we just don’t understand them. The terrorist in the video won’t think of stealing any more lightbulbs now, will he?

      • Pascal's bookie 18.1.1
        5 March 2013 at 4:53 pm

        Colonel Trotter has also been scathing of ‘democracy purists’ who just don’t understand that sometimes you need a strong man it make it all gooder.

        • prism 18.1.1.1
          5 March 2013 at 8:01 pm

          Do you mean Chris Trotter – it doesn’t sound like a complimentary view.

  19. Skinny 19
    5 March 2013 at 4:05 pm

    News Flash: Share Scalpers crash Mighty River Powers website!

    That’s right those same greedy people ( Trevor Mallard refuse to comment on speculation that he is interested) that buy concert tickets to on sell for huge profits are at it again this time looking to wound us with the buy up of ‘our’ power assets shares!

  20. Rogue Trooper 20
    5 March 2013 at 4:22 pm

    Ha ha ha ha ha
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1acEVmnVhI
    (the Killer in Me is the Killer in U, Jim.)

  22. dpalenski 22
    5 March 2013 at 6:39 pm

    Advisers in shock as taxman wins big case

    Senior tax practitioners are in shock after the Inland Revenue Department won another key tax avoidance case in the Court of Appeal, with implications for at least 16 companies and some $300 million of back tax, interest and penalties at stake.

    http://tvnz.co.nz/business-news/advisers-in-shock-taxman-wins-big-case-5360372

    • Descendant Of Sssmith 22.1
      5 March 2013 at 7:51 pm

      Look forward to seeing the managers fired from the firms for fraudulent behaviour, no Golden handshakes, their kids put into cyf care, assets taken off them, partners getting prosecuted for benefitting from the ill gotten salary and bonus payments and both going to jail.

  23. Tom Gould 23
    5 March 2013 at 7:52 pm

    Another party political broadcast from Corin Dann on behalf of his preferred party, even this time concluding the float was so popular the ‘opposition parties’ are now irrelevant. This from the political editor of the public television broadcaster. The Tory twat should be sacked, or come clean and go work for Key openly. Mind, that would require integrity.

    • Colonial Viper 23.1
      5 March 2013 at 8:17 pm

      Just how sure are you that the Opposition is actually relevant?

      • Tom Gould 23.1.1
        6 March 2013 at 6:31 am

        They have a view and ethics demand balance and fairness in reportage. To rule them out regardless, makes his reportage propaganda.

  24. Elizabeth Bourchier Real Labour 24
    5 March 2013 at 8:57 pm

    That nice Mr Trotter had provided some of the text of David Shearer’s interview with Duncan Garner.
    And naturally some very insightful commentary.

    “Mr Shearer’s comments are further proof (if proof is still required) of the man’s ideological orthodoxy, economic passivity and political timidity.

    No wonder the Right is so determined to keep him exactly where he is.

    Perhaps it’s time to calculate the opportunity cost of David Shearer?”

    Link to http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2013/03/05/the-opportunity-cost-of-david-shearer/

  25. ropata 25
    5 March 2013 at 11:34 pm

    Not surprising, TDB is even more anti Shearer than this place.

    Blogs are fun but they exist at the fringes of politics, Labour & Shearer are trying to position themselves more at the centre, and every policy is negotiable until a real election campaign begins.

    Shearer is trying very hard to look like a reasonable dude to the average kiwi, rather than a freaky left wing zealot who calls the PM a liar.

    (public perception is what wins elections, not badly presented ‘facts’)

    • Arfamo 25.1
      5 March 2013 at 11:41 pm

      He’s got to radically sharpen up his tv and radio presence then. He comes across like an idiot who doesn’t know what he’s talking about when he gets asked questions beyond his limited script. It’s killing whatever messages he’s trying to get across.

        • KhandallaViper 25.1.1.1
          6 March 2013 at 6:51 am

          You are right. Up to a point Ropata, many Kiwi’s are busy with their lives and not into the minutiae like many of us on-line weirdos.

          That point though is when he has a few stuff-ups on the 6.00 news and in heavily watched elections TV debates. Then most kiwis will respond negatively.

          Many on these pages are experienced participants and/or observers of politicians and politics.
          They had doubts about many aspects of Shearer from early on:
          Shearer was given the benefit of the doubt for a long enough period;
          then Shearer confirmed those doubts;
          then Shearer even managed to smash the “nice guy” image;
          and Shearer extends and confirms the doubts most of the times he speaks.

    • Colonial Viper 25.2
      5 March 2013 at 11:51 pm

      and every policy is negotiable until a real election campaign begins.

      Seriously?

      And Shearer is some kind of professional, trained in the war zone, hostile environment negotiator in-extremis?

      Is there some special style of negotiation I’m not aware of where you fold all your cards before the first round has even finished being dealt, and where you give away all your chips before betting starts???

      • ropata 25.2.1
        6 March 2013 at 12:11 am

        what is there to negotiate? labour isn’t in government.
        he can only make a bunch of promises or commitments that tend to come back later and bite you on the arse at an inconvenient time on an election campaign

        • Colonial Viper 25.2.1.1
          6 March 2013 at 12:20 am

          And it’s not like Savage or Kirk won by making promises or commitments to Labour voters, is it?

          Perhaps this is our fate from here on in. Centrist middling mediocrity, hard to criticise the flavour because it doesn’t taste like anything.

          At least National has the power of its convictions.

          • Draco T Bastard 25.2.1.1.1
            6 March 2013 at 7:03 am

            And it’s not like Savage or Kirk won by making promises or commitments to Labour voters, is it?

            This.

            We need a party of the left willing to stand on principle, to make promises and then to keep them. The ones we have are too busy making deals – just like National.

          • prism 25.2.1.1.2
            6 March 2013 at 1:45 pm

            CV
            Give those Centrists some Kaitaia Chilli – get them moving. It should be come a ritual for every new left government to have crackers and chilli to underline their commitment to keep hot and keen for the people’s betterment.

            And National’s convictions having power, I wouldn’t like to rely on that energy for when they have sold all the electricity assets and dug down to all the oil and gas. After that they we will find they haven’t have any power in reserve for us.

    • Draco T Bastard 25.3
      6 March 2013 at 6:55 am

      Blogs are fun but they exist at the fringes of politics…

      That may be where they are but they’re not staying there and are rapidly moving to the centre of politics.

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