Open mike 06/11/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 6th, 2021 - 296 comments
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296 comments on “Open mike 06/11/2021 ”

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  1. Gezza 1
    6 November 2021 at 6:18 am

    Heartfelt thanks to all who crew her, who support her operations, and who donate to enable her to fly & save lives.

    https://www.lifeflight.org.nz/what-we-do/westpac-rescue-helicopter

    • Shanreagh 1.1
      6 November 2021 at 12:46 pm

      smileyI'll drink to that and to the Wellington Free Ambulance who made my transition from home to hospital such a 'breeze', well, relatively speaking.

      And thanks to Gezza for these pics, brought home a good memory of being awed by the skill of the pilots bringing sick patients to land.

  2. Stuart Munro 2
    6 November 2021 at 6:22 am

    You remember those police armed response units?

    These scumbag employers are what they need to be deployed against – what ought to be the responsible authorities turn out to "have no jurisdiction".

    • RosieLee 2.1
      6 November 2021 at 6:39 am

      Yes. They should all be named, shamed and deported. And all incoming students, workers or whoever, must be informed of their rights and conditions in NZ, in their own language and with contact phone numbers of officials. The labour department must surely have jurisdiction.

      • Gezza 2.1.1
        6 November 2021 at 6:58 am

        From the linked stuff article:

        "Exploitation is a huge issue in New Zealand,” [Bower] said.

        “The last five years has seen the first people trafficking and slavery convictions, this was a real wake-up call for a lot of businesses.”

        Bower also said he believed exploitation could be found across a range of sectors, “anywhere that requires unskilled or semi-skilled labour”.

        “It’s terrifyingly common across New Zealand, and we are yet to see a sector that is immune,” he said."

        ……………….

        Auē! Tautoko that, RosieLee

        This is not the first investigative journalism story Stuff has done on this issue. They did a very detailed multi-story investigation a year or two ago. Immigration New Zealand has started prosecuting unscrupulous employers, but to read that the problem is simply increasing suggests far more resources need to be put into their compliance & prosecution services.

        And if current legislation is insufficient somehow to catch & punish offending exploiters – it needs to be amended so they can be dealt to severely by the state.

        It appears we are now importing such abominable practices from overseas with certain migrants and/or their family members already in New Zealand.

      • Craig H 2.1.2
        6 November 2021 at 10:20 pm

        MBIE these days, but yes, the Labour Inspectorate and Immigration NZ (both part of MBIE) have jurisdiction. In theory Immigration NZ provides a pile of material in various languages to migrants. The issue isn't the material really, it's the bonded visas and disgraceful employers, and under-resourcing of regulators to deal with it.

    • bwaghorn 2.2
      6 November 2021 at 8:38 am

      In that article is a link to an older article about a douche bag who's amassed $36 mill on the back of his slaves!!

      Now if thatfucker wore a patch his profits would be taken under the crimes act,

      Why not do the same to these slave owners??

  3. Robert Guyton 3
    6 November 2021 at 7:04 am

    Gordon Campbell cuts to the chase:

    "The golden rule is – or should be – that we are free to make personal choices, so long as the exercise of that choice does not do harm to other people. Claiming the freedom to put your own children (or other children) at deadly risk without their consent seems selfish to the point of insanity. Surely, our loved ones and our workmates also deserve the freedom NOT to be further exposed to the Delta virus, because of our own wilful beliefs and inactions. As columnist Paul Krugman put it recently, vaccination is not a personal choice: it is a public duty. Amen to that."

    http://werewolf.co.nz/2021/11/gordon-campbell-on-the-calls-for-freedom-from-covid-restrictions/

    • Sabine 3.1
      6 November 2021 at 7:24 am

      well then, round em up, line em up on a wall and start injecting them then.

      I thought about putting a s/ on it, but then heck, quite a few here would have no issues with that scenario.

      Public duty, my lovely behind! We don't care about duty when it comes to housing our homeless, feeding our hungry kids and their adults, providing timely medical care everywhere in this country and without waiting times and without prejudice , good and decent schools with rooms that are not moldy and with all the tools needed for teaching – unless it is 'good' schools in good areas, access to healthy green spaces irrespective of race, income, and zip code, access to decent and healthy food irrespective of income, decent humane treatment when applying for help with WINZ or ACC, stopping sexual assaults of our school girls, paying nurses good wages and staffing them correctly especially in the times of the plague etc etc etc…..no that ain't a duty, that is something we do when we have a few pennies left over and can be bothered or its an election year.

      But here are some nice and polite and well to do people scared that that their nice bougie gated living areas are no longer safe and that they too could simply die of a disease and all that money that they have will not be able to buy them out of the misery that generally they have no issues with when other people live it.

      Duty, lol. Not sure what Gordon Campell knows about duty, but i can hear the shrieks of hysteria coming from his pen.

      • SPC 3.1.1
        6 November 2021 at 7:44 am

        When you say we, you mean us and what we have failed to collectively achieve for our society, but some – such as GC – may want us to achieve these other things you mention.

        • Sabine 3.1.1.1
          6 November 2021 at 7:55 am

          Duty – a moral or legal obligation; a responsibility.

          We – society, and that includes the dude with the scared pen, – the aggregate of people living together in a more or less ordered community.

          And looking at the stage of this planet, this country, and the many many people who are doing it very tough – even without covid, but more so with, no we don't care, and most only – like this one writer here – will only care when it directly and undeniably affect them. They have no issues with the poor being on 'lockdown' even during the good days for lack of funds, what they find unbearable is that all their money can't buy them a way out.

          But here again, we have a well to do person, who can work fulltime from home with full pay complain about people because after all he has rights to entertainment, haircuts, fine dining and social gatherings with lovely frocks and expensive canapes.

          So don't feel personally called out, i did not do that and i think it is quite clear that WE is 'society'.

          • SPC 3.1.1.1.1
            6 November 2021 at 8:08 am

            Of course it was clear and which is what I said.

            And I did not comment out of any defensiveness but at the unfair impugning of GC for simply being middle class.

          • theotherpat 3.1.1.1.2
            6 November 2021 at 10:33 am

            nicely put twice!yes

      • francesca 3.1.2
        6 November 2021 at 7:44 am

        I really like Campbell, but I agree with you.Its only when the well heeled are at threat themselves that they start demanding social responsibility etc.

        • SPC 3.1.2.1
          6 November 2021 at 7:51 am

          But is GC one of them, he is usually arguing for more social responsibility?

          • Sabine 3.1.2.1.1
            6 November 2021 at 7:57 am

            If you need to ask, is that not already your answer?

            • SPC 3.1.2.1.1.1
              6 November 2021 at 8:10 am

              He's not and yet you attacked him anyway.

              • Sabine …
                6 November 2021 at 9:19 am

                Totally, i attacked his words, and his status as a fairly well of work from home with full pay writer who talks about moral obligations that others have.

                And i will totally do that again.

                He ain't no essential worker who actually carries the risk of getting covid daily and who at worst will infect every single person living in his or her household.

                But Gordon Campell can feel free to write about hte moral obligations to decent housing, decent schooling, decent healthcare, decent public transport, decent infrastructure for 'others' that don't like him are nice well to do people who can work from home with full payl.

                • DS …
                  6 November 2021 at 9:31 am

                  The disease isn't going through essential workers in Auckland. If it were, there would be far more Pacific Island cases. I'd also suggest that the best way of keeping vulnerable people safe is to make sure they're vaccinated.

                  • Patricia 2 …
                    6 November 2021 at 10:56 am

                    Have a thought for the Auckland social work teams working in the front line with homeless and street people. Covid is raging thru these people at the minute ; difficult to trace their recent movements. Little recall and liberal use of alcohol and drugs preclude accurate info re places and contacts of interest. The support teams are vaccinated and well masked but concerned every day that they'll be infected by their clients.

          • francesca 3.1.2.1.2
            6 November 2021 at 8:39 am

            I do like Gordon Campbell.

            I'm responding to Sabine's wider point, that there's mass outrage against the unvaccinated threatening the vaxxed, but where is the mass outrage over poor people being trapped in poverty, homelessness, poor education and health outcomes, early deaths?

            • SPC 3.1.2.1.2.1
              6 November 2021 at 8:50 am

              Sure, for example, there are too many people in poor health out of work late 50's and 60's and in poverty on benefits (even if they get social housing) – some never live to get higher rate super. Yet few have considered super rate benefits for these people.

              And then there are those who have to continue working into their seventies because they do not own housing and cannot afford rent on super alone.

              And why are people dying from cancer required to live on benefits because their situation is not covered by ACC?

              • Descendant Of Smith …
                6 November 2021 at 9:52 am

                Well I'm one who has continuously argued for many years – right back to Helen Clarks government and earlier that benefit rates need to be returned to NZS rates and that the 8 hour working day 40 hour working week and penal rates need to be reinstated.

                . https://thestandard.org.nz/budget-2021/#comment-1793923

                . https://thestandard.org.nz/ubi-what-is-it-good-for/#comment-1688158

                It is so so easy to tritely say the level it was applied at was minimal as if this was somehow true.

                From 1950 to 1975 the single benefit rate was between 26.3% and 31.6% of the average wage. Lets say for simplicity's sake 30%.

                https://www3.stats.govt.nz/New_Zealand_Official_Yearbooks/1976/NZOYB_1976.html#idchapter_1_53820

                The average wage is currently $32-83 per hour or $1313-20 for a 40 hour week.

                The equivalent rate of single benefit if applied at the same rate as those 25 years would be $393-96 per week.

                The current rate is $145-98, $182-47 or $218-98 depending on your age.

                Your notion that it was minimal is untrue.

                NZS on the other hand currently sits for a single person at $411-15 or $379-52. Not co-incidently within the ranges that both NZS and benefit used to be.

                . https://thestandard.org.nz/29/#comment-539315

                Increasing benefit rates to a liveable amount – at minimum putting the $20-00 per week back on benefits – you know the $20 per week they put back on super and the one they had 9 years to put back on benefits but did not

                . https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-01012014/#comment-752261

                Well there’s little evidence that Labour is pushing the needs of beneficiaries and workers. 2012 was the year of the manifesto. 2013 was supposed to be the year of the policy.

                Amidst th’encircling gloom…

                “Next year will be where the detail gets done.” Mike Smith

                • weka …
                  6 November 2021 at 10:15 am

                  I fixed the TS links. If you put the link in a line of its own, it will revert to the post link not the comment link. You can avoid that by putting something in the same line ahead of the link (I used a full stop), or by using the link tags.

              • Patricia Bremner …
                6 November 2021 at 11:06 am

                Are the dying still asked "Are you able to work 15 hours?"

            • ianmac 3.1.2.1.2.2
              6 November 2021 at 9:44 am

              I like what Gordon writes. There would be more concern if he didn't bother to give his opinion which raises concerns like the issue of protesters denying the rights of others.

              It seems that for some it is OK for Collins to express her odious opinions but let's be outraged if Gordon does. Weird times.

      • Molly 3.1.3
        6 November 2021 at 8:01 am

        Thanks, Sabine.

      • Puckish Rogue 3.1.4
        6 November 2021 at 8:10 am

        Good to keep the population fearful

        • Gezza 3.1.4.1
          6 November 2021 at 9:25 am

          Unfortunately that is so, & it is how poltical parties in NZ operate.

          That in turn leads to governments of all shades delivering policies designed to pander to the voting blocs they target & not having the gonads to properly overhaul the governmental agencies, institutions, & instruments that are required to operate efficiently, humanely & fairly to create and maintain a decent, equitable, community-supported general society on the larger scale.

          • Puckish Rogue 3.1.4.1.1
            6 November 2021 at 10:52 am

            Institutional inertia is certainly a thing

            • Gezza 3.1.4.1.1.1
              6 November 2021 at 12:29 pm

              I know from direct experience that a truly competent, deeply involved & intelligent Minister of either gender can move Departmental & Ministry mountains & overcome that institutional inertia. They are, unfortunately, from my observation standpoint anyway, increasingly rare creatures.

      • KJT 3.1.5
        6 November 2021 at 11:58 am

        Gorden Campbell writes frequently in support of addressing the issues you mention, as well.

        Your expecting a bit much from one article. IMHO.

      • AB 3.1.6
        6 November 2021 at 1:39 pm

        The general principle that Campbell infers from the vaccination question is that "we are free to make personal choices, so long as the exercise of that choice does not do harm to other people". I think that general principle might serve quite well as a foundation for fixing some of the other social and economic issues you (rightly) raise. From what I know of Campbell's writing I suspect he would agree.

        I take your point though – there are commentators who are quite selective in pointing out obligations. The obligation of others to get vaccinated is stated vehemently, while the obligation on oneself to pay taxes to properly fund a health service is more muted. I just don't think Campbell is in that group.

    • Ad 3.2
      6 November 2021 at 7:59 am

      Gordon Campbell can go fuck himself.

      People outside Auckland perpetually preaching abstract nouns about duty can just zip it.

      • vto 3.2.1
        6 November 2021 at 8:14 am

        sheesh Ad, that is no argument only abuse – in each of your two sentences.

        i remember posters getting hauled over the coals and banned for such nonsense abuse like that. Aren't you a mod yourself or something??

        • Ad 3.2.1.1
          6 November 2021 at 8:16 am

          I commented at length on the same post last night, and Mr Guyton is just re-hashing. It got to the point where the only useful thing people could put up was another re-run video of Me and Bobby Magee, which is about as useful as the debate got.

          • Robert Guyton 3.2.1.1.1
            6 November 2021 at 12:38 pm

            I didn't read your post of last night, Ad, being otherwise engaged (grandchildren staying over). Apologies for unwittingly bringing up a subject to which you are so sensitive 🙂

        • weka 3.2.1.2
          6 November 2021 at 8:46 am

          Ad's not a mod. The problem is with telling people here to go fuck themselves, which Ad didn't do.

      • SPC 3.2.2
        6 November 2021 at 8:15 am

        So those of the white middle class and those outside of Auckland are to be silent while the victims of the unfairness of their circumstance rage? Aint social media grand.

        • Ad 3.2.2.1
          6 November 2021 at 8:18 am

          We've already had plenty of South Islanders saying they don't want Aucklanders to come there.

          All we need is more bullshit entitled Wellington beltway liberals like Gordon Campbell telling us how to feel and how to express ourselves.

          • SPC 3.2.2.1.1
            6 November 2021 at 8:28 am

            Aucklanders were very supportive of elimination and border bubbles when they benefited – in fact there were complaints about their vulnerability to outbreaks because most of the MI facilities were close to the local airport.

          • AB 3.2.2.1.2
            6 November 2021 at 1:52 pm

            Campbell is completely correct in how the word 'freedom' has been debased for political ends. But nobody in Auckland is in the mood for the intricacies of the discussion.

      • left for dead 3.2.3
        7 November 2021 at 7:18 am

        [deleted]

        [it’s against the site rule to attack authors. – weka]

        • weka 3.2.3.1
          7 November 2021 at 8:40 am

          mod note.

          • left for dead 3.2.3.1.1
            7 November 2021 at 9:48 am

            But they can behave as he has,fine stick it to us second class contributes,Why the blue box,is that another class thing.

            • weka 3.2.3.1.1.1
              7 November 2021 at 10:55 am

              the blue box just means the person has a login at TS. That's all authors, and some commenters who have had one historically (w.e don't allow logins for new commenters now)

              Ad said fuck you to someone who isn't here and doesn't comment here. It was a political comment and he then referred to a longer comment from yesterday. This is normal behaviour on TS. What you cannot do is attack authors, and generally telling other commenters 'fuck you' will get some moderator attention because it tends to start flame wars (and increase work for moderators, which we usually hate).

              Can you see the difference? It's fine to swear here, even strongly, but don't direct it at people you are talking to or TS authors (and there are some limits on some swear words, and context matters).

    • mauī 3.3
      6 November 2021 at 8:48 am

      Presumably Campbell has forgotten about the generations of kiwis that have relied on natural exposure to childhood diseases for protection.

      • weka 3.3.1
        6 November 2021 at 8:57 am

        don't think there's much evidence that this works with covid. It may eventually, as humans and the virus evolve, but not at the moment.

        • mauī 3.3.1.1
          6 November 2021 at 10:20 am

          I've seen plenty of evidence, though most of it is not shown in our media. As an example, there was a study done on the survivors of SARS 1 in the early 2000s, who acquired long term immunity after having the disease. There's also good evidence that children are the least affected by covid than anyone.

      • francesca 3.3.2
        6 November 2021 at 9:03 am

        When Maori were exposed to European diseases like the common cold and flu, they died in huge numbers .To them, respiratory diseases were like(to a degree) the novel coronavirus is to all of us .Our immune systems don't know how to deal with the novel coronavirus.Yes we could all tough it out and many of us would get horribly sick , and many would suffer long covid, and a great many would die, and after a few years our immune systems might get a lot better at coping.Thats a price not many are willing to pay, so the vaccine spares us, gives us a short cut to immunity.

        Not that I don't have problems with a lot of aspects of the global covid response, but I'm not an advocate either of letting her rip

        • Robert Guyton 3.3.2.1
          6 November 2021 at 10:58 am

          That's well expressed, francesca. I share many of mauī's views, but on this, I don't. The rationale behind vaccinations is sound, imo.

      • KJT 3.3.3
        6 November 2021 at 12:02 pm

        You are also "full of it".

        The generations of Kiwi's that ended up disabled or dead from "aquiring immunity" for "harmless childhood diseases" before vaccination.

        The kids graves in our cemetaries in the decades before vaccination was common, before the 60’s, for Scarlet fever, Whooping caugh, Polio, Typhoid, Small pox, Measles, mumps and other "childhood diseases".

        • mauī 3.3.3.1
          6 November 2021 at 2:33 pm

          So covid had a death rate of 2 in one million children in the UK in the first year (https://www.bbc.com/news/health-57766717)

          Can't see how that bears any comparison to these historical diseases that filled up cemeteries.

          • KJT 3.3.3.1.1
            7 November 2021 at 4:02 am

            Parents and grandparents dying early, tend to have a detrimental effect on children's future lives.

            • joe90 3.3.3.1.1.1
              7 November 2021 at 7:59 am

              A pandemic of orphanhood.

              Findings

              Globally, from March 1, 2020, to April 30, 2021, we estimate 1 134 000 children (95% credible interval 884 000–1 185 000) experienced the death of primary caregivers, including at least one parent or custodial grandparent. 1 562 000 children (1 299 000–1 683 000) experienced the death of at least one primary or secondary caregiver. Countries in our study set with primary caregiver death rates of at least one per 1000 children included Peru (10·2 per 1000 children), South Africa (5·1), Mexico (3·5), Brazil (2·4), Colombia (2·3), Iran (1·7), the USA (1·5), Argentina (1·1), and Russia (1·0). Numbers of children orphaned exceeded numbers of deaths among those aged 15–50 years. Between two and five times more children had deceased fathers than deceased mothers.

              https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)01253-8/fulltext

      • Craig H 3.3.4
        6 November 2021 at 10:28 pm

        It's purely anecdotal, but I live near 4 cemeteries, and it's noticeable how the children's sections slow down in numbers more recently even with bigger populations over time. Some of that is no doubt families having fewer children, but vaccines and antibiotics for the deadlier diseases also have something to do with it. Smallpox in particular had a 30% death rate and diphtheria 5-10%.

      • Heather Grimwood 3.3.5
        7 November 2021 at 10:02 am

        to Maui at 3.3 : I'm bit late with this reply, but ask you to think of the children who died or suffered lifelong debility from many of them. I grieve that this historical memory is not widely remembered or known.

    • weka 3.4
      6 November 2021 at 8:58 am

      that we are free to make personal choices, so long as the exercise of that choice does not do harm to other people

      I'd like to take issue with people who vote in that case.

    • DS 3.5
      6 November 2021 at 9:37 am

      Fully agree with Gordon Campbell here.

    • Ross 3.6
      6 November 2021 at 10:53 am

      Has Gordon had a recent measles shot? How about a shot for mumps? It would be irresponsible of him if he hasn't. And it would be hypocritical of him to tell others what to do if he hasn't done it himself. I'll take him more seriously when he shows me his vaccination records. 🙂

      Since abortion involves potential harm to the expectant mother, and definitely harm to the aborted fetus/child, I can only conclude that Gordon may well be anti-abortion. He is entitled to his views.

      • Robert Guyton 3.6.1
        6 November 2021 at 11:02 am

        You're "iffing" much, Ross. Perhaps if you were to stick with the known, rather than the speculative, you'd sound more credible. Or I should say rather, stick with the known, rather than the speculative 🙂

        • Ross 3.6.1.1
          6 November 2021 at 1:16 pm

          I disagree, Robert. If someone is pontificating from a high horse, I expect them to be beyond reproach. Hardly an unreasonable position. Gordon doesn't answer any of the fundamendal questions about Covid or the vaccination programme, and the words "informed consent" don't pass his lips. It's understandable why he has copped his fair share of criticism here.

          And he definitely seems to be pro-abortion. No ifs there.

          “…given the availability of chemical options in the 21st century, [abortion] can and should be regarded as a choice for women alone”.

          http://werewolf.co.nz/2017/03/gordon-campbell-on-the-conflicts-over-abortion/

          • Robert Guyton 3.6.1.1.1
            6 November 2021 at 3:25 pm

            "High horse"?

            Hmmm…

            Was Gordon charged with addressing "fundamendal (sic) questions about Covid or the vaccination programme,"? or is he free to tell us what he thinks?

            You said, "I can only conclude that Gordon may well be anti-abortion"

            Then went on to say, "And he definitely seems to be pro-abortion."

            He aha tou raruraru???

  4. Sabine 4
    6 November 2021 at 7:30 am

    and can we finally rest the claim that some are responsible for all evils whilst others are just poor bystanders who are endangered?

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/pou-tiaki/300447300/covid19-more-pkeh-are-unvaccinated-but-mori-are-being-stigmatised

    While Māori are facing increasing pressure from the public to get vaccinated, figures show the ethnic group with the highest number of unvaccinated people is Pākehā.

    Ministry of Health data revealed more than 260,000 Pākehā, recorded under the European/Other ethnicity band, were unvaccinated on November 2. That total was almost double the number of unvaccinated Māori, which sits at 140,000.

    The 35 to 64-year-old age group was nearly three times more than Māori. But the rate is closer in 12 to 34-year olds, 120,000 Pākehā and Māori, 94,000. Half the eligible Māori population is aged 12 to 34-years.

    fwiw, Maori are actually right on time with vaccinations considering that the Group 4 was not supposed to be vaccinated before End of October, as – and i would hope it arrived – a shipment of vaccines was expected around 28th of October.

    Want to be safe from Covid?

    wear a mask

    keep physical distance to others not in your group/s

    sanitize

    keep healthy – food, exercise, find some happiness in something

    get your jabs.

    • SPC 4.1
      6 November 2021 at 7:50 am

      Funny that Stuff …

      1. they just published an article by their explainer guy (Lynch) about statistics – such as at some point most people infected will be those double vaxxed (break through infections), as more are vaxxed and waning immunity before booster doses and because of prior infections among the 10% unvaxxed.
      2. the news stories about the concern that there is no target for Maori vaccination before opening up, just the aggregate total for those in the regional area.

      Why are Maori health providers concerned about lower Maori vaccination rates if everything is on schedule (and yes they do have a lower age demographic – but they have been able to be vaccinated since the end of August)?

      • Sabine 4.1.1
        6 November 2021 at 8:03 am

        Again, that misses the point that i was making. Namely that Maori should not be held to blame for the lockdown and the continuing lockdown of Auckland as it has been for a while now.

        Maori are 16% of the population, the biggest part of the Maori Population are young, the smallest part of the Maori Population are among the old to very old.

        It was a cheap and mainly racist blame game and it still is.

        And last but least, the Jabs ( i do not call this a vaccine) will not prevent you from getting it, transmitting it, but hopefully you get to live, while without chances are you don't.

        And in saying that, the Government can already start with its propaganda tour for the booster shots, because that too is going to cause issues. Also, are those that are needing boosters right now, vaccinated or unvaccinated? And are they white/brown/others? And do we need to care?

        • SPC 4.1.1.1
          6 November 2021 at 8:25 am

          Maori have not been blamed for the lock down in Auckland and nor for the continuing lock down in Auckland – they are on track for 90/90.

          The concern is in regard to the lower rates of vaccination in NI provincial areas where there is a higher Maori population if there is spread from out of Auckland (and yes the younger Maori demographic means it was inevitable that areas with a higher Maori population would be last to reach the 90/90 figure).

    • Ad 4.2
      6 November 2021 at 8:00 am

      Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

    • bwaghorn 4.3
      6 November 2021 at 8:43 am

      To a certain extent some Maori have made themselves a target by their constant harping on about needing more help ,more time , more more more, get off your arse and get dotted.

      • Descendant Of Smith 4.3.1
        6 November 2021 at 10:06 am

        Nope that's a big misrepresentation.

        What Maori said quite early on was three things:

        1. We need a different approach for Maori in the prioritisaton of the rollout as the age related approach suit the older European population but Maori (and PI) have a younger age profile and are more susceptible at a younger age
        2. That Maori should be empowered now to deliver much of the vaccination rollout and to develop the approach and to take a more whanau based approach e.g. ignore the age prioritisation and do a whole family at once – old and young
        3. They will be able to reach groups of people who are distrustful of the government who who currently struggle to access health services in rural areas

        If this had been done from day one then we would be in a much better place.

        I understand that in Hawke's Bay the community took this approach with the PI community having the highest vaccination rate of any PI community in NZ.

  5. Subliminal 5
    6 November 2021 at 7:41 am

    The World Socialist Website is a place that has always pointed out the dangers that covd poses to humanity. They have always been and still are firm supporters of vaccination. But they also realise that vaccination alone will not be enough. There is a good article by Dr Deepti Gurdasani of the UK that explains the concept of herd immunity. The higher the R number, the greater the immunity level required of the population. For Delta, immunity needs to be at least 85%. Thats immunity, not vaccination rates. Since we don't have vaccinations that provide this level of immunity, even with 100% vaccination, letting Delta rip will bring on the very same situation as the UK. We will be looking at 10s of thousands dead, predominantly in poorer, vulnerable communities. Containment and suppression strategies do not work with Delta. In NZ, the govt still had great support for lockdown strategies but this support is now waning with the abandonment of elimination.

    At the bottom of the article is a link to a webinar that amongst others, features Michael Baker and Deepti Gurdasani. Its long but most of the best is near the front. In the UK, students are attending school without even a mask mandate. There is high levels of ongoing child infection. Parents are liable to prosecution if they refuse to put their children in school. There are now numbers indicating significant long covd in children as well as organ damage. This is not a nice disease to get. Our government now appears to be going down this same track of caving to business and putting the economy before peoples health. This is a sure path to the same devastation as the UK. China appears to now be the only country left with an elimination strategy

    • weka 5.1
      6 November 2021 at 8:49 am

      the economy, but also having to balance containment with people's tolerance for being contained. Personally I think there's a lot more that could be done about that, and I agree that letting delta into the rest of country is a very big risk. But, we haven't had the conversation about what it would be like to contain it in one place and to what extent this would create two New Zealands. That's a tough conversation.

      • Subliminal 5.1.1
        6 November 2021 at 9:00 am

        It is tough but that just means it requires some effort. We can see from oversees what pretending about a magic bullet approach to vaccines leads to. It's not good and burying of heads in sand will mean a very short stint in power for Labour. They were here in power for this pandemic and will be judged by how it plays out. If they choose to believe the whining attitude of the msm and its business supporters they will pay the price when the inevitable custardisation occurs.

        • weka 5.1.1.1
          6 November 2021 at 9:09 am

          I doubt Labour think it's a magic bullet, everyone is gearing up for more deaths. But there are going to be some disappointed and angry people next year as the reality of the limits of the vaccination programme become apparent, probably starkly so in NZ as we have slow spread and MSM intense focus on that.

          • SPC 5.1.1.1.1
            6 November 2021 at 9:27 am

            It's now about the delivery of health services.

            Boosters in time for the oldies and those with health conditions and the availability of and quick supply of anti-viral treatments to those infected. Pfizer's one seems useful, maybe better than Merck's.

            And still nothing on AZ antibody treatment being purchased – it and the Novavax vaccine are options for those not rna vaccinated.

            • weka 5.1.1.1.1.1
              6 November 2021 at 9:52 am

              sure, but still seems risky and not our only option. Anyone talking about long covid and what will happen to those people?

              • SPC …
                6 November 2021 at 9:57 am

                Fortunately there is not much evidence of young people and asymptomatic infections resulting in long COVID, and hopefully early identification of infection and quick treatment prevents it.

                • Subliminal …
                  6 November 2021 at 10:13 am

                  Thats not true SPC. The webinar mentioned above has a series of chapters with the one by Deepti Gurdasani outlining with publicly available data the serious impacts of long covd and organ damage for school children in the UK. The chapter before by parent Lisa Diaz on the UK scorched earth policy in schools is also sobering.

                  • weka …
                    6 November 2021 at 10:47 am

                    really interesting, thanks.

                    3% of health workers have long covid in the UK. That should be waking people up.

                    2 – 14% of children with confirmed covid are getting long covid.

                    That decline in kidney function (even in people that weren't hospitalised) is really a worry. Novel virus, so much we don't know yet. What will happen to people in 10 years? Later in their lives?

                    Faark, the whole video.

                    • SPC …
                      6 November 2021 at 11:37 am

                      The case for delaying the return to school in Auckland from Nov 15 to Dec 1 (90/90) is strong.

                      It’s not as if women going back to the workplace can use hospitality (level 3 lightest) before Dec 1 or does it …Baker will not be happy clappy if that was before 90/90 plus 2 weeks.

                    • Sabine …
                      6 November 2021 at 11:49 am

                      @SPC

                      It’s not as if women going back to the workplace can use hospitality (level 3 lightest) before Dec 1 or does it …Baker will not be happy clappy if that was before 90/90 plus 2 weeks.

                      because only 'women' use hospitality (what does that even mean, man don’t drink coffee) , and hey its just 'women' right? Boy oh boy oh boy.

                      btw, women atm are working from home with the kids there, and and and and, maybe just a litte bit r e s p e c t?

                    • SPC …
                      6 November 2021 at 12:10 pm

                      The point being why is the government rushing the return of children to school before the 90/90 level is reached?

                      With the year 11-13 there was the exams thing and they have been able to be vaxxed – not those under 12 till next year

                      So why? Yes women are at home working and looking after kids (which employers will respect). But as soon as they can go back to school there will be pressure on these women to go back to work.

                      The question is why Nov 15 for schools to re-open. Is it because it because this was the date they penciled in for hospitality to re-open?

                      And if there is the risk of lingering health problems for those unvaxxed children …

                    • weka …
                      6 November 2021 at 12:17 pm

                      kind of seem daft to reopen so close to the school holidays, so you are probably right, this is about the economy. Lack of imagination to find other solutions.

                  • SPC …
                    6 November 2021 at 11:31 am

                    On checking.

                    First this account – that there is evidence of some impact (lung tissue scaring for example) of the infection on those who were asymptomatic. But not the categorisation of this meaning a long COVID case, just an uncertainty whether the damage noted, but not experienced by the person, would have any future health consequences or whether it would heal up over time.

                    https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200811/asymptomatic-covid-silent-but-maybe-not-harmless

                    And this California study focused on the health of people over 2 months after asymptomatic infection. Not sure if this counts as long COVID. 27% of those not hospitalised had continuing symptoms and a third of this 27% were those asymptomatic initially after infection (and children were in both categories).

                    Another study cited in the article below noted 3/4 of hospital patients had continuing health issues 6 months later.

                    Unfortunately it does not establish a figure to differentiate levels of longer adverse impact between symptomatic (short of hospitalisation) and non symptomatic cases.

                    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/08/health/long-covid-asymptomatic.html

                    So OK I'll revisit my post.

                    There is evidence that children with infection and asymptomatic infection cases can result in longer term health problems.

                    And given this note, early identification and treatment is therefore important (even in asymptomatic cases) to reduce adverse health impact.

                    Which would inform a decision to import more of the anti-viral treatment doses and more routine rapid testing.

                    • weka …
                      6 November 2021 at 12:12 pm

                      the video above talks about symptoms persisting between 6 and 12 weeks after infection. She points out that once symptoms are lasting that long, it's harder for people to recover.

                      (some research was done on people with symptoms after a year).

                      I hope the MoH proves me wrong, but they've barely been mentioning long covd and are using conservative figures of incidence (10% rather than up to 40% internationally). They're also bad at helping people with illnesses not well undersood by mainstream medicine.

                      Labour keeping medical benefits so low is going to be an obvious problem for those that end up unable to work, although it's possible long covid will highlight the issue and it will get some media and public attention.

                    • SPC …
                      6 November 2021 at 1:22 pm

                      It seems that where a vaccinated person has a breakthrough infection the chance of Long Covid is reduced by 50% as compared to those not.

                      That is still some risk. The government has ordered 4.7 M more Pfizer doses – for those 5-11 and for boosters.

                      https://www.bbc.com/news/health-58410354

                • weka …
                  6 November 2021 at 10:28 am

                  the NZ government is likely to let covid into the wider community before the vax rates are high enough. That's the risk in particular.

                  • Blazer …
                    6 November 2021 at 11:09 am

                    That's an interesting observation Weka.

                    How exactly will the NZ Govt be likely to 'let' covid into the wider community?

                    • SPC …
                      6 November 2021 at 11:41 am

                      Opening schools in Auckland pre 90/90. Aucklanders travelling for holidays to areas still below 90/90.

                    • weka …
                      6 November 2021 at 12:14 pm

                      they're opposed to a firewall between NI and SI and appear to be about to let people from an area with transmission go have holidays in the SI. Even with vaccinate mandates, this seems to me to basically be saying the whole country is going to have covid in the community sooner rather than later.

                    • Subliminal []
                      6 November 2021 at 1:50 pm

                      I think you are absolutely right there weka. Conditions for the traffic light system have no mention of travel restrictions. Even green states that covd will be spread throughout AoNz with "limited" community cases. Not sure how we do "limited" with a virus that has an R number between 5 and 8. With no travel restrictions and vaccines that dont give the necessary immunity increasing cases, deaths and long covd are inevitable.

                    • weka …
                      6 November 2021 at 2:33 pm

                      from what I can tell the government and health system are gearing up for deaths and hospitalisations across the country. I haven't looked at the traffic light system (yet).

                    • Craig H …
                      6 November 2021 at 10:32 pm

                      Once all DHBs reach 90% double dose, everyone moves to Orange on the traffic light system. There are no regional boundaries at Orange, so once we get there, we are opening up (or earlier if Cabinet says so on 29 November).

                  • Robert Guyton …
                    6 November 2021 at 11:15 am

                    "Governance" and "Government (lower & upper case g)" really interests me. What do we understand by that? What are the parameters of each of those? Are lobby groups with identifiable influence, part of government? Protesters who cause change, partners of elected representatives? Foreign governments, overt and covert…the streams that contribute to our governance are many, imo and yet we talk about the Government; Jacinda et al. as if they're hermetically-sealed.

                  • Blazer …
                    6 November 2021 at 12:20 pm

                    So how high do you think vaccination rates need to be before inter island travel is allowed?

                    • weka …
                      6 November 2021 at 12:25 pm

                      no idea, and I assume we don't know yet. But the state of the SDHB is a compelling reason to delay as along as possible.

                      The argument against would be we're better getting our first wave in summer/autumn than winter.

                      I'm not particularly convinced by either the economic or the social (freedom to travel) reasons, there are other solutions to both of those.

                    • weka …
                      6 November 2021 at 12:26 pm

                      I also think there are issues with basically saying to the NI, let it rip, and protecting the SI. And if the NI was to be protected from Auckland and Waikato, those issues become even more problematic. I think it's useful to have the conversation though and see what is fair (or what people think is fair). Something definitely needs to change for Aucklanders.

                    • Subliminal …
                      6 November 2021 at 3:41 pm

                      High enough that it can be demonstrated that comminity cases do not transmit exponentially. As stated above, it is unlikely that this can be attained even at 100% vaccination with the vaccines available. Therefore, caution is the way to go. We have seen what happens in Auckland with Delta. There is no need to rush this to any other area. Anyone who believes that there is some magic path back to BAU is dreaming. It's not necessary to compound the many current problems with Bojos "pile the bodies high" for the sake of summer holidays. We might need to imagine its a time when we holiday in our own back yard. Just keeping freight moving is going to be challenging.

        • ianmac 5.1.1.2
          6 November 2021 at 9:53 am

          "custardisation"

          A great new word for me thanks Subliminal.

  6. Dennis Frank 6
    6 November 2021 at 8:10 am

    Kim Hill is interviewing Danyl Mclaughlin @ 9.40am re the PM as exemplar of the middle way. The gist of his thesis seems to be the ever-spinning moral compass of our middle class:

    I experience a thrill of self-righteous outrage at the destruction to the social fabric caused by housing hyperinflation: all the families sleeping in cars, or trapped in emergency accommodation; I rage at the failure to solve housing, that it’s getting worse instead of better, that the political and economic system seems utterly broken.

    But I also feel, simultaneously, a warm little glow because I own a house in a leafy suburb, and the steady, unending increase in property values means I make money off it without doing anything, or paying any tax. It’s bad for the country but good for me. And I think this Ferrantesque sensation of having-it-both-ways, the self-righteousness and the cash, points to something important in our politics.

    https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/06-11-2021/in-a-captured-state/

    • weka 6.1
      6 November 2021 at 8:51 am

      lol, that quote is spot on. I've been framing that as Labour will never act on the housing crisis because too many liberal voters own property with large capital value. But I also think that the same dynamic reaches most of our key issues. We want clean rivers but we don't do what is necessary to get them. Climate change, poverty, benefit rates, it's all the same thing.

      • bwaghorn 6.1.1
        6 November 2021 at 9:38 am

        Saying labour isnt acting on housing isnt true, they've tried plenty and still are, more state houses, kiwibuild (yes I know it isn't going that well) tightening the noose on investors, the new intensification rules, .

        • weka 6.1.1.1
          6 November 2021 at 9:51 am

          they're not acting on the housing crisis in the sense of solving it. They're tinkering to stop it from getting worse and to bring some relief to some of the people in poverty. They're pretty up front about not wanting to drop house prices and they're equally up front about not raising benefits. So what's the plan? How will the chasm between benefit income and housing costs ever reduce? Do you think all beneficiaries will end up living in state houses? When is that likely to happen? Before National get in again?

          • UncookedSelachimorpha 6.1.1.1.1
            6 November 2021 at 12:12 pm

            "they're not acting on the housing crisis in the sense of solving it."

            Exactly. House prices have increased about 30% just in the last year, in dollar terms each NZ house "earned" far more than a typical annual income (difference being – the house "income" was mostly not taxed). Homelessness remains terrible.

            Utter, utter failure by Labour on this one. No other description.

          • Patricia Bremner 6.1.1.1.2
            6 November 2021 at 12:44 pm

            They are using Kiwisaver to fund the idea of build to rent. However world events(covid) and supply lines are choking current efforts to get materials.

            • weka 6.1.1.1.2.1
              6 November 2021 at 1:39 pm

              the supply lines one is interesting. It's not a difficult pivot to things like retrofitting existing houses, and making sure that all demolition materials are saved and reused. We should be doing these things anyway, because of climate change and because of the ecology crises.

              We could also be merging forestry with the supplies issue with climate action, and looking long term ie planting our own trees for building instead of expecting to import them.

              What's build to rent?

              • Patricia Bremner …
                6 November 2021 at 2:14 pm

                Purpose built properties, usually town houses or apartments meant for long term renting on 10 year leases. That is already an income stream for Australian pension funds, so our Kiwisaver could help build those homes. Built to a high standard to last 50 plus years. (22/Sept NZ herald Minister Woods explores :|Build to rent. Paywalled )

                Currently any partnerships would cause them to be subject to commercial tax. Nicola Willis has designed a bill to "Fix" this. This may become part of the housing accord….. which means two party thinking to solve this, though I have not seen the proposed bill yet. waiting waiting. I think this could be a good discussion post.

                • weka …
                  6 November 2021 at 2:32 pm

                  Labour want to use Kiwisaver to build houses for long term rentals? Would they be the landlord?

                  • Patricia Bremner …
                    6 November 2021 at 9:40 pm

                    Through K'ainga Ora, and affiliates I understand. Awaiting more to come out.

                  • Craig H …
                    6 November 2021 at 10:35 pm

                    Kiwisaver funds can do what they like, they are privately run. Simplicity has announced they are moving into this area, and it's common overseas as large pension funds are quite good landlords and have a very long investment horizon.

                    The NZ Super Fund (aka Cullen Fund) might go down this pathway as well – I think this might be what was meant by Kiwisaver. As with Kiwisaver funds, it could work well.

                    • weka …
                      7 November 2021 at 12:16 am

                      so essentially it's the private sector building rental housing for profit?

                    • Craig H []
                      7 November 2021 at 12:48 pm

                      The NZ Super Fund is a Crown entity, so not private sector, but any income streams will be used to help fund superannuation in the future which may avoid tax increases. Up to you whether that constitutes profit I guess.

                      Kiwisaver is private sector all the way (although Kiwibank is a State Owned Enterprise), but a lot of the funds are provided by the government over time. Simplicity is a non-profit, so the income is being used to fund people's retirements but not the shareholders as well.

    • SPC 6.2
      6 November 2021 at 9:00 am

      A cognitive dissonance in having concern but opposing CGT and estate/inheritance taxation – so they have the resources to support their children into home ownership while the children raised in rentals are locked out. This is how a class system becomes inter-generational (remember the fear about inter-generational welfare).

      • Nic the NZer 6.2.1
        6 November 2021 at 11:34 am

        The only thing Labour opposed about a capital gains tax is calling it a capital gains tax. The bright line test is a fully functional CGT, the other problem being CGTs have prevented zero housing bubbles (most countries with housing bubble collapses after 2008 also have long standing CGTs).

        • SPC 6.2.1.1
          6 November 2021 at 11:59 am

          Fully functional. Nope.

          1. IRS was not on top of identifying and collecting any bright line test liability from the get go, and I am not sure they are now either.

          2. It's still possible to buy a house and do it up and sell (simply by not letting it out, and using it as a place of work one lives in) without being taxed. And then do it all over again.

          3. There was no backdating of the application of the 10 year time periods to the original Key (2) and Labour (5) dates.

          4. It does not apply to farmland or shares

          5. It does not apply to multiple property ownership for personal use.

          Sure the move to end deductability of interest has ensured landlords now question delaying sale to avoid the brightline tax and revisit plans to buy up more properties (that's now becoming the preserve of developers).

          • SPC 6.2.1.1.1
            6 November 2021 at 12:36 pm

            IRD, must have been IRS via Am sp auto-correction or grammarly tax – IRS … .

          • Craig H 6.2.1.1.2
            6 November 2021 at 10:44 pm

            IRD have collected some tax through the bright line test since Labour got in and increased the term. With the changes, a lot of people are holding onto property longer.

            On 2, that's taxable if IRD cotton onto it – the exemption for owner-occupied properties has limits ("have a regular pattern of either buying and selling or building and selling your main home" or "have used the main home exclusion twice or more over the 2-year period immediately before you sold your main home").

            On 5, the exemption for personal ownership only applies to one property ("main home") – if you own a bach as well, one of your properties is captured.

            https://www.ird.govt.nz/property/buying-and-selling-residential-property/the-brightline-property-rule/exclusions-to-the-brightline-rule

            • SPC 6.2.1.1.2.1
              6 November 2021 at 11:06 pm

              I missed or since forgot the change on one property only exemption from the bright-line.

              I do wonder how it applies when people change their main residence from the urban home to their McMansion by the beach. Especially should they sell their urban home first (free of liability) and move into the "bach" (while this might not end liability on the property it allows total bach ownership beyond 10 years and extinguishes bright line application) and then buy an apartment in town (which becomes the main residence when they sell the bach post 10 years and so on).

              • Craig H …
                7 November 2021 at 12:39 pm

                In theory that's covered by the legislation, although how many people will actually properly comply is always a matter of conjecture for any tax legislation.

    • gsays 6.3
      6 November 2021 at 1:01 pm

      I was listening to Dame Kim this morning and she prefaced the Danyl Mclaughlin interview with an email observing how, "she has become the quintessential reactionary liberal centrist and staunch defender of the status quo", and that was what they were going to talk about. After the interview Hill intimated that she would revisit the Neapolitan Novels, by Elene Ferrante with a different view.

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=2018819445

      It occurs to me, that it is one of the bigger fissures that runs through this community (TS).

      • Dennis Frank 6.3.1
        6 November 2021 at 1:10 pm

        it is one of the bigger fissures that runs through this community (TS)

        An interesting insight. I comment here as an outsider, so such fissures are less evident to me.

        I was intrigued when she responded to something Danyl said by saying "That depresses me." It made me feel more empathy for her than I normally do!

  7. francesca 7
    6 November 2021 at 8:15 am

    Oh god, not only covid, poverty, impending environmental doom, global catastrophe, energy crises, wars, spots and exams but the young also have to contend with excruciating identity problems .

    Luckily there are labels , cos everyone needs an identity

    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/nov/05/i-am-16-and-identify-as-an-ace-lesbian-but-i-dont-want-to-come-out-to-my-parents

    • Sabine 7.1
      6 November 2021 at 8:21 am

      when you can't say lesbian, cause you got to center males

      Non Men loving Non Men = Lesbian.

      We are so fucked, this planet is fucked, society is fucked, and our kids are the ones suffering all that fucked up'edness.

      • vto 7.1.1
        6 November 2021 at 8:25 am

        I dont think we are any more fucked up than any time before Sabine

        What has happened is that all the previously unconnected fucked uppeds have connected due to internet and that has made it seem more fucked up than before… that connectedness of our fuckedupnesses

        • francesca 7.1.1.1
          6 November 2021 at 8:50 am

          I think that culturally we've come to a bit of a dead end, no collective sense, more and more atomisation, identities , individuals,All expedited and exacerbated by social media and the internet, which was initially expected to do the opposite ..connect.

          The anxiety which comes out in the kids is an epidemic.There is narcissism and loneliness and disembodiment galore, all ready to be monetised and harvested by social media manipulators.

          We are pretty fucked and seemingly helpless in the face of it

        • weka 7.1.1.2
          6 November 2021 at 8:54 am

          yeah but social media isn't inert, it actively promotes and provides a place for even more fuckedupness. It doesn't care if young women hate their bodies, it will make money from that and grow the market.

          • vto 7.1.1.2.1
            6 November 2021 at 9:20 am

            yep. I remember when women's magazines like Cleo used to do the same – and would ask my female friends why they read that shit when it just made them feel lesser. Same principle being applied, just now on an uber-grand scale. I agree

          • Sabine 7.1.1.2.2
            6 November 2021 at 9:53 am

            +1

            but still, indoctrination is a thing,

            and that 16 year old girl refers to 'sexual' self as a

            Non male loving Non Males. She does not refer to herself as a Women/Girl loving Women/Girls.

            She has already learned that 'women/girl' is not something that applies to her and her sexuality.

            • weka 7.1.1.2.2.1
              6 November 2021 at 10:09 am

              it's completely fucked up. The Patriarchy is rolling on the ground laughing. The liberals are still thinking everything will just be alright if every individual has an identity.

              Fortunately the lesbians are fighting back, as are the older women who are generally ignored until it's too late.

              • weka …
                6 November 2021 at 10:10 am

                I should find a MSM article about women and write a post where the word woman is replaced with non-man. I've been appreciating your comments in that frame.

                • SPC …
                  6 November 2021 at 10:29 am

                  There has been a subtle subversion of the feminist claim to (biological sex) group gender equality – NOW has used that approach and it sort of compromises them in a defence of the safety of biological women now that gender has become part of individualised identity. Which explains the emergence of SUFW and the other group that submitted to the PSC.

                  It's a bit of a mix with lesbians – they do include Louisa Wall, and those in the health area are aware of the need to be supportive of those marginalised because of their identity. And concern about the safety of the transgender in police cells was/is valid (as to the Auckland parade issue a few years ago which began a few divisions). The problem is when things go tribal and the full range of concerns are not taken into account. It sometimes seems easier to just adopt a singular principle, the self identifying individual becoming entitled to apex predator status (alongside husbands and men of high society standing) of the past) in the matter of womans right to safety as it were.

            • Blazer 7.1.1.2.2.2
              6 November 2021 at 11:14 am

              Logically a homosexual will then be a non female loving non females….or hang on is anything 'logical' these days!

        • Treetop 7.1.1.3
          6 November 2021 at 10:24 am

          People still seem to communicate face to face when it comes to those who you live with or work with if not working from home.

          A few days ago I saw an article on a robot like a large vacuum on 4 wheels delivering pizza. The customers preferred the robot to a person delivering the pizza.

          When it comes to a neighbour asking another neighbour to do something like banging in a couple of nails on a very windy day (me supplying the hammer and nails) on their side of the fence to avoid a heavy sheet of iron being blown through the answer was no, ring the property manager. So now a 1×1 m gap.

          People who do social media will communicate with a stranger. There is a disconnect in face to face communication. When it comes to social media pressing a key a can reinforce your point of view and agree with you no matter how f – ed up your thinking is.

        • Sabine 7.1.1.4
          6 November 2021 at 10:31 am

          I had some small hopes in the 80's when all of Germany's forests turned brown and dead with acid rain, when Tchernobyl happened, that maybe we can actually change things – surely people understand that change needs to come. ha!

          The kids today don't even have that hope. They know better then any of us will ever admit that the planet they will live on will be hostile to them, that the food they will eat will be of lesser variety and quality then the food we eat, they know the water they drink is full of chemicals to make it potable, and that an outbreak of Covid will have them locked up for ever in their flats (if they even have or can afford housing).

          We had hope, they have covid and stupid transflags to make up for the fact that their future is fucked beyond believe and that should they want kids themselves it will be even worse for them.

          We leave them nothing. And they know it.

          • Treetop 7.1.1.4.1
            6 November 2021 at 11:24 am

            Young people need to be listened to and their needs and concerns need to be recognised and acted on by those who hold the power and control economically over the future of the young.

            Every person has it in them to contribute to sustainability and to change an attitude which has caused the environmental situation the young have been dealt.

            Trust is lacking and needs to be restored using the right actions by those who hold the power.

            • Sabine 7.1.1.4.1.1
              6 November 2021 at 11:32 am

              Well, who ever is listening to this Girl will hopefully tell her that she is not a NON MALE but a girl/women and that being lesbian is AOK and that being sexually not active – rather then a-sexual – at 16 is also normal. Also i hope they tell her that women the world over feel hyper feminine aka girly some days and then other days not. And all of that still makes them only one thing. Women and Girls.

              Enough of that Non Male bs. She ain't non male, she is a girl. We are not referring to homosexual men as Non Female loving Non Females, or to heterosexual men as Non Female loving Non Males.

      • theotherpat 7.1.2
        9 November 2021 at 4:09 pm

        its the muppet virus we really need to worry about

    • SPC 7.2
      6 November 2021 at 9:48 am

      Gender identity has sort of supplanted biological sex equal place in society feminism in academia and that, as it does, then comes down to influence girls when they become teens. And more broadly when there is social media about (including fitness/fashion style influencers and their commercial sponsors). Which is why the psychologist was advising more emphasis on becoming/maturing/developing an identity in real life rather than on line. Psychologists were always right in allowing people to come to who they become as it develops/evolves (like other girls – is it a role model thing, or something more – no need to presume an answer now approach).

      • Treetop 7.2.1
        6 November 2021 at 12:12 pm

        … an identity in real life rather than online.

        This is a process which needs to be experienced by an individual over a period of time and not virtually.

  8. Dennis Frank 8
    6 November 2021 at 8:18 am

    There’s nothing wrong with having a society that’s run by smart, hard-working, educated people. The problem arises when that class is unable to see itself.

    When you walk around a university campus you’ll see posters and meeting notices and public lectures critiquing a wide range of injustices, inequality and oppression, but you’re very unlikely to see anything suggesting our society is ruled by technocratic elites.

    Because the campus is where that leadership class is manufactured and the students are ferociously clambering to join it. The university is the apex of a gigantic sorting mechanism to sift those who are economically productive from those who aren’t.

    https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/06-11-2021/in-a-captured-state/

    Been there, done that, long ago. It produced a life medial between the dissident margin of society and the competent competitive production of society. In terms of identity politics, the archetype is the shapeshifter. Traditional form shamanism, but you don't know that as a young adult experimenting in performing that medial function. Creating social progress via subversion within the establishment.

    Doubt if Danyl gets that subtle, but my point is that not all those on the middle way are complacent hypocrites…

    • SPC 8.1
      6 November 2021 at 9:22 am

      Yeah sure, there was the Socialist Action League about when I was at uni – not Stalinist like the ANC of course, more pro PAC (Steve Biko).

      I recall a student asking a first year economics lecturer why there was nothing about socialism or any alternative to the market economics till the third year – to the lecturers reply I said, if you learnt market economics you'll apologise for the worth of your education to monetise it. Of course the aplologists as it were climb ladders to status and then believe in their entitlement to be one of the haves and be well rewarded.

      • Blazer 8.1.1
        6 November 2021 at 11:18 am

        Not hard to see why financial literacy is not on the agenda for early education is it.

        Who wants the hoi polloi to be au fait with compounding interest,debt, and modern monetary theory.

        • Gezza 8.1.1.1
          6 November 2021 at 12:23 pm

          👍🏼

          Good to see you posting here, B. Luv your avatar.

          • Robert Guyton 8.1.1.1.1
            6 November 2021 at 12:32 pm

            A couple of relics left over from Keeping Stock 🙂

          • Blazer 8.1.1.1.2
            6 November 2021 at 12:33 pm

            You too G.

            Hope you are in good health.yes

            • Gezza 8.1.1.1.2.1
              6 November 2021 at 1:15 pm

              Thanks, B.

              I’m feeling pretty damn good, all things considered. Life is for living well while we can.

              .https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-05-11-2021/#comment-1830389

              At least, that’s the new motto of:

              Sir Gerald Ormsby Battersea Bradders, RSVP, PC
              North Wellington Avian Aviation Authority
              (But call me G or Gezza, I’m not one for overly overt displays of formality 👍🏼☘🐧)

              • Blazer …
                6 November 2021 at 2:30 pm

                I see.

                We never can foresee the trials and tribulations life has in store for us Gezza.

                Its good to see you have great support around you.

                You are a very sincere and resilient individual.

                I'm sure you have alot more songs to sing yet.

                Get that guitar out and let the music..play on.wink

            • Robert Guyton 8.1.1.1.2.2
              6 November 2021 at 3:33 pm

              Sure am! Pity about ol' Inventory – got rubbed out, he 🙂

              • Blazer …
                6 November 2021 at 4:21 pm

                ?…is this some misdirected schadenfreude Robert?

                • Gezza …
                  6 November 2021 at 7:20 pm

                  I was starting to wonder the same thing, mon ami. I actually have no fking idea what he’s on about. And I realise I probably don’t even want or need to. Most Bizarre remarks.

  9. vto 9
    6 November 2021 at 8:22 am

    middle class this middle class that

    what a load of bullshit

    this sneering

    upper class are worse

    why do you not mention them?

    anyone?

    or is it all just self-loathing

    this middle class this and middle class that

    no cred

    • SPC 9.1
      6 November 2021 at 8:41 am

      It’s largely a term in reference to the middle class having the voter power to support government action – CGT, estate/inheritance taxes/better public health and housing and income support for families in need.

      Yes the upper class are worse, but in regards to politics Randolph Churchill once explained to the Tories they should not fear extension of the franchise to the working class. For then middle class supporters of the Whigs (their liberals) would act to protect their status from an empowered working class – and they did to the point of abandoning the Whigs to join the Tories and prevent a working class Labour government.

      • Dennis Frank 9.1.1
        6 November 2021 at 8:52 am

        Danyl's source provides insight into middle-class political psychology:

        Conservatives have fretted endlessly about the danger of radical professors indoctrinating students with Marxist postmodernism, but Ferrante understands two things that they do not.

        Firstly, that Lenù isn’t being indoctrinated into an ideology: she’s being socialised into an elite class; and secondly, this class often presents itself as radical – revolutionary even – but is almost always “symbolically liberal but operationally conservative”. Its members occupy privileged positions in a wildly unequal society while presenting themselves as outsiders and critics. But they employ forms of activism or protest that don’t really change anything.

        Sound like the Labour Party you thought you knew? Simulation of progress emanates from so-called progressive politicos…

        • SPC 9.1.1.1
          6 November 2021 at 9:12 am

          And yet there were those of the middle class who joined the working class party and offered them their leadership – the "Blairites" and they followed after the Americans into Iraq to remove a socialist regime and prevent one from happening in the UK.

          • Sabine 9.1.1.1.1
            6 November 2021 at 10:26 am

            Labour is a lot of things but it has not been a 'workers' party for a long long time.

            I don't think any of the current lot even 'worked' in the sense of 'working'. They pushed pencils in some political connected job, but that is about the heaviest thing they ever had to push.

            And the problems Labour has with peeps such as my self is that lack of 'working people ' in that party. They are a very elitist club of highly educated people who have learned a lot, but in fact understood very little. And its shows.

            Last, having good intentions works for getting elected, but having no skills to back any of these intentions up is what loses an election.

            • Gezza 9.1.1.1.1.1
              6 November 2021 at 10:44 am

              Yes, & that is the most common criticism of modern day NZ Labour party politicians by ALL of their detractors. Take away the mosque shootings, Whakaari eruption, & Covid, and in too many portfolios “it sticks out like dogs’ balls”, as my late beloved father in law used to say.

              Although with the current rump of National MPs & in particular the current National leader, the other major party won’t fill voters’ minds with hope of a better, more coherent & competent alternative government under a National Party-led coalition, imo.

              • Sabine …
                6 November 2021 at 11:34 am

                I don't think that National ever pretended to be the workers party.

                • Gezza …
                  6 November 2021 at 12:20 pm

                  Tru dat, Sabine, & I didn’t mean to unwittingly imply that they were.

                  But their claim, in general terms, is to be, overall, always the best, most responsible Party for government in NZ, & I see that claim as, frankly, in absolute tatters in National’s current, incoherent state.

                  • Sabine …
                    6 November 2021 at 12:55 pm

                    as is Labours claim that they are better then National, while at the best they are both just the other side of the same coin, at worst, they undo everything good in their own way, and the citizens and taxpayers get to pay the bills. Neither one of these parties are the saviours they like to pretend they are. Both of these Parties are the reason why we are were we are atm, global warming, and all.

    • weka 9.2
      6 November 2021 at 8:56 am

      Middle class in NZ usually also refers to the professional classes. We don't have an aristocractic class here. If you mean the uber wealthy, not sure we have a term for them.

      • SPC 9.2.1
        6 November 2021 at 9:07 am

        The middle class does not usually have a main home worth millions and another also worth millions as a "bach" and millions in shares (and or rental portfolio). But sure we do not use the term upper class for those in this group with greater wealth/land property ownership.

        It's notable that the UK has a CGT and an inheritance tax and we do not.

        • weka 9.2.1.1
          6 November 2021 at 10:49 am

          I tend to call them upper middle class. But we do have uber wealthy as well, and many middle class people are millionares simply because they own a home (or a home and a crib).

          • SPC 9.2.1.1.1
            6 November 2021 at 12:54 pm

            Owning (inheriting or buying one of those railway or post office union holiday homes for their workforce) a bachelor pad sized or crib baby sized getaway is not the same thing as owning a newly built McMansion by the beach.

          • alwyn 9.2.1.1.2
            6 November 2021 at 7:00 pm

            The millionaires don't own a home and a crib surely. They own a home and a bach. Only in the South do people have cribs. The crazy house price inflation that exists in Auckland, and now in Wellington, hasn't reached the deep South where the cribs are has it?

            After all QV give an average price of $1,392,000 in Auckland and $460,000 in Invercargill.

            https://www.qv.co.nz/price-index/

            I'm surprised there isn't a mass move south of the population.

      • Gezza 9.2.2
        6 November 2021 at 10:30 am

        The only term I can immediately think of that I’ve heard sometimes used to cover them is ” the top end of town”.

      • Blazer 9.2.3
        6 November 2021 at 11:21 am

        'rich pricks' may suffice.

    • Sabine 9.3
      6 November 2021 at 9:55 am

      The middle class that would like to be the upper class will do anything to keep the working class and the proletariat and the precariat in its place.

      And they are not even aware of that, cause that middle class status is precious and fragile, and the worst thing that can happen to any of these wanabe's rich listers is that they too one day are nothing more then working class, proletariat and precariat.

  10. Cricklewood 10
    6 November 2021 at 8:48 am

    Forget farmers for a minute at least they're a productive industry. The uber rich and their lifestyles are a big part of the problem we face, we could make a big dent in emmisions by clipping their wings and demanding they lower their carbon footprints… Fossil fueled Private Yachts and Jets are just unconscionable.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/nov/05/carbon-top-1-percent-could-jeopardise-1point5c-global-heating-limit

    • bwaghorn 10.1
      6 November 2021 at 9:40 am

      What no it's the cows I tell you it's the cows!!!!

    • Subliminal 10.2
      6 November 2021 at 9:48 am

      Absolutely Cricklewood. It's the place to start all right. Those at the bottom of the heap that contribute little to nothing are not the major problem. Being a billionaire should be made impossible through taxation. Or a crime against humanity. Simply on the issue of world wide malnutrition, Elon Musk could fully fund the $30B annual reqired to end world hunger for six years just from the increase in his nett worth in the last 12 months. During the time of covd, US billionaires have increased their net worth 70% from $3 trillion to $5.1 trillion. Obscene is really the only word to describe it.

  11. Adrian Thornton 11
    6 November 2021 at 8:52 am

    Kim Hill in her interview with Daniel Ellsberg this morning, just confirmed ( as if needed) her status as faithful guardian of the status quo…I think Ellsberg had to say "are you serious" twice to her and wasn't even when Hill suggested Assange should just harden up and go to the US and test out their justice system FFS…she has become the quintessential reactionary liberal centrist.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/saturday

    • francesca 11.1
      6 November 2021 at 9:23 am

      She is such a disappointment in that regard.I mean devil's advocate is one thing..

      I wonder if it stems back to that dreadful interview she had with John Pilger over WMD and Iraq.when she said "Well what would you do about Saddam Hussein Mr Pilger?"and slammed his book across the table Listening to her fawn all over Peter Pomerantsev, Bill Browder and Luke Harding is an embarrassment.

      Because I genuinely do enjoy her interviews with authors, scientists, people in the arts.

      I think her research team must inform her on the political stuff, ie the current orthodoxy.And whoever is in charge of programming delivers her the interview subjects, always in favour of the status quo

      • Bearded Git 11.1.1
        6 November 2021 at 9:54 am

        I think you have a point there Francesca. Either Hill is badly briefed or briefed by people who are centre or centre right.

        But surely she should be aware that Assange will not get justice in the US? Not good enough Kim.

      • SPC 11.1.2
        6 November 2021 at 10:12 am

        Why would anyone do anything based on lies about WMD?

        And its not as if this was an orthodoxy – our government did not support regime change in Iraq. Taking military action was not UN approved and we tend to regard UN as providing legitimacy in such matters.

        • francesca 11.1.2.1
          6 November 2021 at 10:47 am

          You would think that she realises the stance she took back then proved to be based on totally false data.Simply she was wrong.

          She's clearly never bothered to inform herself over Assange, puzzling, but then she's never really shown much insight into geopolitics, just not her thing.But that doesn't explain her quite stubborn loyalty to whatever shallow analysis appears in the MSM

    • SPC 11.2
      6 November 2021 at 10:07 am

      The idea that the USA can extradite and imprison anyone who facilitates awareness of their corruption is the necessary support for their internal suppression of such reporting (those in the know cannot leak or they go to secret courts where there is no public good defence – which is why Snowden could not get a fair trial if he stayed in the US).

      A journalist supporting this undermines the profession and enables government authoritarian corruption. She may as well become a press officer for NSO.

    • Brigid 11.3
      6 November 2021 at 1:40 pm

      After referring to Assange's 'rape charge' I was expecting her to refer to Wikileaks releasing un-redacted data. I guess we should be thankful she didn't do that.

      I just don't understand why someone generally so well informed and clever, persists with the mis-information.

      • Adrian Thornton 11.3.1
        6 November 2021 at 7:20 pm

        "I just don't understand why someone generally so well informed and clever, persists with the mis-information." you don’t need to look far for the answer to that question…Francesca hit the nail on the head…"I guess there's a reason she's lasted so long in the job"

        Kim Hill and RNZ in general are like a text book case proving the theory of manufacturing consent in media is working perfectly in New Zealand….

        " …on the basis of the partial picture of issues offered by the mass media, denying them access to alternative views which would lead them to oppose such policies. They present this as a propaganda model in which the mass media select material in relation to the values of those in power."

        https://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803100132197

    • gsays 11.4
      6 November 2021 at 6:34 pm

      Was it you, Adrian, that e-mailed the show and called her "quintessential reactionary liberal centrist”?

      I thought of you when she read it out.

      • Siobhan 11.4.1
        6 November 2021 at 7:45 pm

        That was him alright…late for work as per usual on a Saturday while he writes his thoughts to our dear friend Kim..

  12. Dennis Frank 12
    6 November 2021 at 9:14 am

    Danyl recycles two graphs from Piketty, and uses them to produce a noteworthy analysis and conclusion:

    That’s education polarisation. More than almost any peer nation (except the US) New Zealand’s left-wing parties are supported by a cohort of people with professional and advanced degrees: the top 10% by education level. And, because education mostly correlates with income, they’re the people at the top of that earlier distribution of left-wing voters by income.

    So we’re a textbook example of the phenomenon Piketty talks about: the transformation of a 20th-century politics based around income inequality into a “multi-elite party system” dominated by “the brahmin left” and “the merchant right”; rival factions of the professional managerial class.

    This validates one of my main themes of commentary the past seven years onsite here: the Lab/Nat duopoly as ruling class. Democracy provides political competition as sham for sheeple & media. The system produces the same old shit regardless of electoral results.

    https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/06-11-2021/in-a-captured-state/

    • Bearded Git 12.1
      6 November 2021 at 10:21 am

      That is way too simplistic Mr Frank. While I agree with most of what Danyl says, there is a difference in electing a Labour/Green coalition versus National/ACT. To tar them with exactly the same brush is wrong (shame the Greens are not in the coalition)

      I am a Green voter here but would have enthusiastically voted for Corbyn if I still lived in the UK. But again there is a difference between voting for Boris or Starmer….and there is always hope people in the UK Labour party will push him further left.

    • RedLogix 12.2
      6 November 2021 at 11:21 am

      I very much like that analysis – and I agree it aligns with my experience too. Danyl's article is a joy to read – he's come a long way in the past decade.

      But one advantage of this hybrid PMC/Ferrante/Piketty viewpoint is realising that an awful lot of politics is just intra-elite squabbling; that many controversies and cultural events are either moral panics, propaganda or exercises in personal or corporate branding, sometimes all of these simultaneously. You can tune it all out and pay attention to things that seem interesting and important.

      Which is partly why I've veered away from the theatre of personality politics toward more data driven themes that determine the fate of nations. We rely on competent people to make our world work:

      In the multi-elite party system all parties are deeply constrained by the managerial class. This new alignment isn’t anything that’s gone wrong with any one political party, leader or ideology: it’s a huge social shift happening across multiple democracies simultaneously.

      • Dennis Frank 12.2.1
        6 November 2021 at 11:33 am

        Yeah he's onto it. The dichotomy tween narrative & metanarrative is where the action is nowadays. Meta is always more powerful (thus Facebook's morphing) and to read the undercurrents influencing politics & culture ought to become increasingly important. I'd go so far as to suggest it will be a survival skill.

      • swordfish 12.2.2
        6 November 2021 at 5:32 pm

        .

        an awful lot of politics is just intra-elite squabbling

        Bang on … Danyl hits the nail squarely on the head.

        I've been singing this tune on social media for quite some time now … I just tweeted yesterday:

        Increasingly, I see both the Right & the Woke pseudo-"Left" as two sides of the same self-interested Establishment.

        Labour captured & transformed into a kind of Upper-Middle Woke Vanity Project.

        [Ironic though that Danyl’s piece appears in the Grey Lynn Luvvies unofficial House Mag]

    • Ad 12.3
      6 November 2021 at 5:52 pm

      Danyl should try Bordieu for a far more nuanced analysis of class. Piketty is really just a statistician.

      But you can't fault McLaughlan for cute winking self-referentiality.

      • RedLogix 12.3.1
        6 November 2021 at 8:12 pm

        cute winking self-referentiality

        ha – very droll. In my more plodding fashion I might have said 'self-awareness'.

  13. garibaldi 13
    6 November 2021 at 10:32 am

    Quite so AT @ 8.52 am. Tragic isn't it? Faafoi is wise fucking around doing nothing in the Broadcasting portfolio ….. RNZ is deteriorating rapidly even without his dithering.

  14. Puckish Rogue 14
    6 November 2021 at 10:35 am

    Does Labour want to lose the next election? I don't think they do but this should have been an easy No I'd have thought:

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/126910310/covid19-pm-not-ruling-out-time-slots-for-aucklanders-to-travel-this-summer

    • solkta 14.1
      6 November 2021 at 10:50 am

      No doubt Northland will be back to level three by then anyway so all a bit pointless talking about coming north. With all the antivax numbnuts up here and a main hospital that can't cope at the best of times it is going to get messy.

    • Nic the NZer 14.2
      6 November 2021 at 5:41 pm

      Did you see the Dr Who episode about the massive interminable traffic queue? Who knew Aucklanders might prefer that to start off their holidays.

  16. theotherpat 16
    6 November 2021 at 10:50 am

    we are two islands…..i vote north does not get to come south until vax rates are 98% plus boosters……the nth island has the majority of population which also brings a higher percentage of selfish muppets…. yeah i know …pot calling the kettle black….the Auckland level 4 showed that and after over a year here with no community cases as soon as govt relaxed the lockdown the Bert and Ernies ran wild but hey i guess economics and voting blocks that matter most.

    • Puckish Rogue 16.1
      6 November 2021 at 10:55 am

      I vote NZ follows the UK model. North and South divide!

    • Sabine 16.2
      6 November 2021 at 11:39 am

      time to go and declare independence then.

      • I Feel Love 16.2.1
        6 November 2021 at 11:58 am

        No one down here in the south island thinks that, just some bozo shit stirring.

        • weka 16.2.1.1
          6 November 2021 at 12:23 pm

          I'm in the SI and I think we should definitely be exploring the use of the natural geographical border to delay bringing delta into the community here. Seems like a no brainer to me. What's the objection exactly?

          • Shanreagh 16.2.1.1.1
            6 November 2021 at 12:40 pm

            I agree with this Weka. It is worth looking at. The geographical sea border would be easily done. Not sure that there would be many Aucklanders doing a Dunkirk in little boats to cross the Strait. Bookings by air could be restricted to emergencies.

            But the Aucklanders, the Aucklanders……..

            The North Island is big enough for all of us North Islanders to play around in over Christmas. Of course it won't be all Aucklanders who are able to travel.

            • Sabine 16.2.1.1.1.1
              6 November 2021 at 12:58 pm

              How about Families? Should they apply for a South Island Visa any day soon, just in case?

              • weka …
                6 November 2021 at 1:27 pm

                it's not forever Sabine.

                • Sabine …
                  6 November 2021 at 1:44 pm

                  I get what you are saying Weka, i do, but still – would you be ok with the North Island saying no to any South Islanders coming up? And if they have to come to the North Island will they have to stay there until some MIQ space in the South Island becomes available? How far do we want to take this?

                  Again, keep in mind that i did travel from west to east germany on occasion, so things that are supposedly one thing can very quickly turn into a different thing altogether.

                  • weka …
                    6 November 2021 at 9:35 pm

                    if the situation were reversed and there was uncontainable spread in Otago and no covid in the NI, I would totally support the government to put a firewall between the two islands until we're at 90%+ vax rate. Probably even more so given the larger numbers of at risk Māori in the NI.

                    Re govt powers, I was pleased today to read that restrictions on non vaxxed people leaving Ak (if they are brought in) would be temporary.

                    • Sabine …
                      6 November 2021 at 9:50 pm

                      Not disagreeing with you. To be honest, i would also be happy if no one really comes to Rotorua either from Auckland.

                      I guess this is the biggest gift anyone can give this year for Christmas, the gift of staying at home and not travelling to much about. To contain the spread, and to save the environment.

                      I just don't want to end up in an environment were we all live in districts with different rules and regulations and without the correct paperwork etc no one goes anywhere. That situation could very well go bad, say if booster shots were only available to those that could pay for them in the future.

                    • weka …
                      7 November 2021 at 12:22 am

                      I can see all sorts of ways this could go wrong too (my imagination runs to mission creep by Labour and then National get in with all these extra powers and the culture has changed around what is acceptable).

          • alwyn 16.2.1.1.2
            6 November 2021 at 7:06 pm

            The objection? There are more voters in Auckland than there are in the whole South Island I would think.

        • Sabine 16.2.1.2
          6 November 2021 at 12:58 pm

          I have no doubt about that. In the same sense as non of us north islanders that are currently stuck in l2 blame aucklanders for anything. But there be shit stirrers that want to be stirring shit.

          • weka 16.2.1.2.1
            6 November 2021 at 1:31 pm

            It's not about blame, it's about public health. I don't hear SI people blaming Aucklanders, and it could just have easily been the other way around. Remember the Bluff Wedding? We have our share of people doing stupid things.

    • Graeme 16.3
      6 November 2021 at 1:22 pm

      Christmas in Queenstown and other places that attract Aucklanders us going to be interesting. I doubt they will be that welcome, apart from a few accomodation providers, the general South Island population will be giving them a wide berth. So Queenstown will have a few Aucklanders around, who will have an attitude because everyone’s abusing them, and everyone else is trying to find somewhere there’s no Aucklanders. Fun Christmas.

      But that’s what last Christmas was like in Queenstown, but then more of a hate on ‘tourists’

    • Blazer 16.4
      6 November 2021 at 5:23 pm

      But Queenstown is screaming to open the borders!

      We need domestic and international tourism to survive they say.

      • weka 16.4.1
        6 November 2021 at 9:36 pm

        I think you will find that that is the Mayor and some of the tourism operators. Talk to people in tourist towns and they're not all unhappy about the current state of affairs.

  17. I Feel Love 17
    6 November 2021 at 12:06 pm

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/05/the-1918-influenza-tore-through-maori-communities-anti-vaxxers-risk-this-again

    Really interesting angle here, a māori perspective, saying it's "unmāori" to think individually & not collectively, the "my body my choice" argument is not traditionally how māori thought.

    • Dennis Frank 17.1
      6 November 2021 at 12:25 pm

      I agree it's an interesting space to watch, from an identity politics perspective, to see what collective label they adopt.

      Harawira was online with another of the great veterans of the sovereignty struggle, Tame Iti, to encourage Māori to get vaccinated. Tina Ngata from the East Coast, Debbie Ngarewa-Packer from the West Coast, and the vast majority of Māori sovereignty activists in between are pro-vaccination. What, then, does this make a Māori anti-vaxxer when the vast majority of Māori sovereignty activists oppose you?

      Back in the 1960s, dissidents were labelled nonconformists. This was considered more reasonable than the label used in the prior decade (communists).

      Then in the 1970s multiculturalism kicked in, so the framing shifted toward minority rights and the politics of oppressed minorities.

      We derive our personhood from our whakapapa – ancestry – and the complex web of privileges and obligations it confers.

      Godfery, in asserting this piece of traditionalism, offers the subtext that Maori are incapable of transcending tradition. I hope he's wrong to assume that! I expect some Maori, at least, are capable of forming individual identities similarly to pakeha; by choice & volition.

  18. Robert Guyton 18
    6 November 2021 at 12:26 pm

    Dame Anne Salmond – not impressed by our climate change proposals!

    "The way the Government is investing in tackling climate change is scientifically ill-informed, and economically ill-considered. It needs a fundamental rethink, writes Dame Anne Salmond

    My heart sank when I read about the commitments that New Zealand is taking to COP-26 in Glasgow. It seems we’re proposing to meet most of our international targets for sequestering carbon by spending $5 billion on restoring forests in other countries."

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/climate-emergency/cop26-anne-salmond-tiakina-te-taiao-take-care-of-the-living-world

    • weka 18.1
      6 November 2021 at 12:28 pm

      It's horrendous. We should be helping other countries restore their forests and dropping our GHG emissions fast.

      What we're doing is rearranging deck chairs and pretending we didn't hit the iceberg.

    • Dennis Frank 18.2
      6 November 2021 at 12:35 pm

      officials in Wellington are still talking about expanding industrial plantations on steep, erodible land

      The Dame seems to be complaining about bureaucrats being normal as usual. Would she expect a brontosaurus to leap out of the swamp and head for the hills?

      Recycling a norm that was prevalent half a century ago is exactly what bureaucratic inertia does. Someone ought to explain to her that public servants have no clause in their employment contracts requiring them to adjust their advice to suit conditions current in the world outside Wellington.

  19. UncookedSelachimorpha 19
    6 November 2021 at 12:36 pm

    Continuing the housing theme, good comments to the housing minister in a letter from John Minto:

    An industrial scale state-house building programme is the only solution to the housing crisis for low-income New Zealanders

    [State housing]…would save billions through reducing the massive spending on motels (over $300 million per year) and in accommodation supplements (over $1.7 billion per year) These subsidies to private sector landlords are “dead money”. Why are we spending billions on propping up a failed housing market while tens of thousands of our people struggle in unaffordable housing?

  20. Molly 20
    6 November 2021 at 1:32 pm

    Hey, PR – just following up on our previous conversation. I had looked at Blair White before, and found her OK, but I'm more of a reader than video watcher usually.

    I did come across this Andrea Dworkin quote which seemed to have some resonance for me on both the video I watched, and the silence of the supposed left wing. I thought I'd send it to you so that you can see if that lens has some merit when looking at 'right-wing' personalities talking about this topic:

    "To right wing men, we are private property.

    To left wing men, we are public property. In either case, we are not considered to be humans: we are things." – Andrea Dworkin, Right Wing Women

    This is a good explanation of the feeling I had watching the video you sent, the idea that women required 'protection by men' not 'from men' or any suggestion that men should stop being violent.

    This also gives one explanation into the silence of left men. If women – and are single-sex spaces are collectively owned, then the accommodation of transwomen (natal men) into those spaces is a simple reshuffling of community assets. Who would expect your local athletic park to have a say if a swimming complex was going to replace the croquet pitch. That decision is made by the owner, the local authority.

    Also, in regards to the emergence and speed question you posted. I've just come across this Spectator article from 2019, in part related to the self-id but also related to the explosion of children identifying as transgender and the response given to them, "The document that reveals the remarkable tactics of trans lobbyists" by James Kirkup which conveniently gives a link to a download for a document titled:

    "'Only adults? Good practices in legal gender recognition for youth'".

    Its purpose is to help trans groups in several countries bring about changes in the law to allow children to legally change their gender, without adult approval and without needing the approval of any authorities. 'We hope this report will be a powerful tool for activists and NGOs working to advance the rights of trans youth across Europe and beyond,' says the foreword.

    And how do the authors suggest that legal change be accomplished?

    I think the advice is worth quoting at length, because this is the first time I’ve actually seen this put down in writing in a public forum. And because I think anyone with any interest in how policy is made and how politics works should pay attention.

    Here’s a broad observation from the report about the best way to enact a pro-trans agenda:

    “'While cultural and political factors play a key role in the approach to be taken, there are certain techniques that emerge as being effective in progressing trans rights in the "good practice" countries.'

    Among those techniques: 'Get ahead of the Government agenda.'

    What does that mean? Here it is in more detail:

    [deleted]

    • weka 20.1
      6 November 2021 at 1:37 pm

      I took out a big chunk of the quote, too long especially for people on phones to have to scroll past if they're not interested. Better to summarise and link.

    • RedLogix 20.2
      6 November 2021 at 2:54 pm

      This also gives one explanation into the silence of left men.

      In my case I've made it clear several times already that sex is a real differentiator and I've no objection to the case being made by weka and others. Indeed I'm impressed at how well this obviously contentious issue has been conducted on this site.

      I'm fairly certain however that's about all I'm welcome to say on this topic.

      • Sabine 20.2.1
        6 November 2021 at 5:10 pm

        Actually, no, feel free to express your opinion. This is going to affect all of us, not just the Non Males. So please feel free to state what you think, as debate on this issue is needed.

      • Molly 20.2.2
        7 November 2021 at 1:57 pm

        Feel free, RL. While we might not agree, the discussion is worthwhile, and every new perspective gives insights in how to have the discussion as well.

    • SPC 20.3
      6 November 2021 at 8:36 pm

      Given Dworkin was abused in her marriage, her viewpoint is unsurprising.

      But abuse of power involves more than the male female dynamic, and needs to be confronted everywhere.

      For example our migrant labour system enabled abuse/exploitation to occur in both the particular and in the general neglect of the local labour pool (lack of workplace training, reduced workplace conditions and lower wages).

      The vulnerability of women in areas of pornography and prostitution relate to the wider issue of social justice in society (to actualise freedom of choice, rather than dependency via desperation – such as in other abusive relationships) and lack of empowerment for and protection of workers.

      • Molly 20.3.1
        7 November 2021 at 1:53 pm

        Thanks for your take SPC. PR and I were having a conversation a few days ago, about the silence of the left wing (particularly males) on the negative impact on women's rights due to legislation being written without regards for it.

        He had provided a few links to right-wing commentators actually talking about the issues, and we both tried to come up with an explanation about why so many right-wing commentators are talking about it, and so few left-wing are.

        I was just exploring possible reasons, and Dworkin's quote gave a general perspective. I don’t intend to get into some in-depth undertaking on Dworkin, just the quote gave a explanation that might be worth exploration, when watching the discussion on both sides.

        Despite previous understandings of women's only spaces being accepted, it now seems like heresy on the left to suggest that these spaces remain safeguarded and protected from male-bodied people. To my mind, these are communal spaces owned by the collective group of women, and they cannot be given away by men, or individual women within them.

        A consensus decision would be needed, – and yet that is not sought, and to be frank, would not be the result if all women were heard and given weight in the decision.

    • Puckish Rogue 20.4
      6 November 2021 at 9:12 pm

      Clever

      'In many of the NGO advocacy campaigns that we studied, there were clear benefits where NGOs managed to get ahead of the government and publish progressive legislative proposal before the government had time to develop their own. NGOs need to intervene early in the legislative process and ideally before it has even started. This will give them far greater ability to shape the government agenda and the ultimate proposal than if they intervene after the government has already started to develop its own proposals.'

      Quite clever

      'In Ireland, Denmark and Norway, changes to the law on legal gender recognition were put through at the same time as other more popular reforms such as marriage equality legislation. This provided a veil of protection, particularly in Ireland, where marriage equality was strongly supported, but gender identity remained a more difficult issue to win public support for.'

  21. Patricia Bremner 21
    6 November 2021 at 1:40 pm

    206 cases today.

    • Gezza 21.1
      6 November 2021 at 1:48 pm

      Jeeziz. 😬 That can’t be good. 😳

      • Janice 21.1.1
        6 November 2021 at 4:49 pm

        From the 5,000 'freedom' protestors last week?

      • Grafton Gully 21.1.2
        6 November 2021 at 6:04 pm

        Hoping for a mild illness so my body gets used to it, but old so more likely severe. Taking care to stave off the inevitable as long as possible by following MOH advice. Plenty of people I see out and about doing the same.

        • Gezza 21.1.2.1
          6 November 2021 at 7:12 pm

          My recently diagnosed neurological condition, among other challenges, makes it difficult for me to breathe even without a mask on the slightest exertion, & with Welly hospital support I have received an official mask exemption.

          I nevertheless always carry one & wear it whenever encountering other people until I am far enuf away from them outdoors to feel safe pulling it down & inhaling deeply of blessed air.

          It is also worth putting it on & pacing myself whenever visiting a supermarket or other crowded place than to deal with demands I have received like: “Can you put your mask on please?” in a hospital lift when someone entered with a family member patient in a wheelchair.

          With the time it takes to get one’s phone out, enter the screen lock code, & open one’s Photos app to display the exemption (which people actually have no right to demand, according to the issuing agency), it’s easier to pull the mask up or on & just slow down & inhale as deeply but quietly as conditions allow.

          I mostly avoid going out & am well set up to live pretty well self-contained at home, though I will need to pay attention to the health status of visiting community support staff & careworkers when Delta breaks thru in Welly.

          • Dennis Frank 21.1.2.1.1
            6 November 2021 at 7:53 pm

            I feel rather taken aback by your situation. Considerably worse than mine. I do hope you've been bolstered by useful advice around resilience & some prospect of healing. You usually seem in good spirits, and I suspect that derives from some inner resilience connected to spirituality.

            Since fitness is mostly aerobic, I wonder how the medical experts you've been dealing with have outlined a way to proceed with that.

            • Gezza 21.1.2.1.1.1
              6 November 2021 at 9:29 pm

              “You usually seem in good spirits, and I suspect that derives from some inner resilience connected to spirituality.”
              ………………………….

              That is very perceptive of you, Dennis. I am an argumentative atheist of the first order when it comes to belief in the Judaic, Christian & Muslim Abrahamic God, although I do try & respect their beliefs more these days since I believe we share an interest, or at least a hope, in the existence of a higher power.

              I am, as you will probably know, a profound admirer of the planet & the universe in which we find ourselves delightfully alive & able to experience their magnificence, their complexity, & sheer beauty, & at times their awesome, destructive but usually in some way regenerative raw power on a daily, & for me, even a nightly basis.

              Every culture I know of has looked for & developed beliefs around the originator(s) of these many wonders, these beautiful things, often simply described as “creation”.

              Although science has so far demonstrated the capacity for animo acids, the so-called building blocks of life, to be formed in the lab from science’s best guess at the chemicals present on the earliest earth with the introduction of electricity into that “chemical soup”, I know of no experiment that has yet succeeded in introducing the spark of life that made the first cell divide & replicate.

              The precise origin or cause of the Big Bang still eludes the greatest human minds in physics, who are reduced to fascinating speculation by the incredible layers of complexity quantam mechanics keeps on slowly peeling back.

              I think there was – and possibly still is – a creator. For want of a better term I am happy to call it God, though I attribute no specific gender to it. I see no reason to. I do not know whether God intervenes in our earthly affairs, or hears the entreaties of humanity, but I have long ago developed the habit, in times of need, of going out into nature & asking, out loud & very specifically, for help with matters that are troubling me, personally.

              It seems to me that, far more times than the odds should allow, I have received precisely the help that I requested, or occasinally even something better. It is important to me to remember always to give thanks to God for the many blessings that have already been bestowed on me, & it is remarkable how many people of multiple different cultures throughout history have come up with the same feelings & practices.

              Traditional Māori are intimately familiar with these precepts, for example, although they have built myths around many atua as a means of reminding themselves of the need to treat ancestors & the environment with due thanks & respect by anthropomorphising their wairua.

              I don’t need to know how it works, or even IF it really works. It gives me hope & encouragement & does me no harm because, having made my request, I have no expectation that it will be answered. I make the request, & then get on with doing whatever I have to do in case the request is not granted. If it IS granted, or seems to be, that is another bonus, for which I always express my thanks out loud, out of earshot of others, as this is a very personal thing.

              “Since fitness is mostly aerobic, I wonder how the medical experts you’ve been dealing with have outlined a way to proceed with that.”

              I won’t go into much detail, but the hospital physio has given me good, practical information & handouts on best techniques for someone like I am now for breathing, for clearing my lungs, & for exercising. My arms & legs are still plenty strong enuf to mobilise & to hurt the doctors’s hands when I squeeze, kick or push against them, & long may they continue to be.

              If there is any way to beat this thing, I will; if there is not, I will not surrender to it until there is absolutely no other option. I do not believe in an afterlife, tho one would be nice, as I have had no experiences to strongly suggest to me that there IS one. So
              i will carry on living on this amazing planet for as long as I possibly can, & be thankful for the time I have had on it. At my age I know so many other people who have sadly not been granted the duration of enjoyment of earthly existence that I have had.

              • Dennis Frank …
                7 November 2021 at 4:17 am

                Good, I see you have the right attitude. Thanks for the feedback. I became a refugee from christianity at age 13 when I told my mum "I'm never going to go to church or sunday school again." Then was mystified that the usual thrashing from my dad never arrived.

                I realised I had a spiritual connection to nature when the hippie thing happened – reminded me of the feeling I had as a child exploring the bush near our home in New Plymouth. Later discovered they call this sense of oneness with nature mystical, and instantly accepted the Gaia hypothesis when Lovelock's brand-new book announced it. Eventually did in-depth research on life after death from circa '96 for a decade or so but like you have no direct experience of that. Was intrigued that our life-path gets co-designed tween incarnations and some tragic/traumatic events are pre-chosen for spiritual development. I don't expect you to believe that since it would be inappropriate to do so! I can't honestly say I believe it either – just that it seems likely.

                Re willpower & self-transformation, I've been applying this combo to myself since I was a teenager (initially out of desperation). Necessity being the mother of invention, I've been pleasantly surprised to escape any doom that seemed to loom at various stages of my life thro lateral thinking, inspiration, diligence application of technique etc & hope you find a similar mix works for you… angel

                • Gezza …
                  7 November 2021 at 8:22 am

                  OMG, serendipity strikes again! Not only are you a spiritual kindred spirit, but while a Wellingtonian, I’m also a Taranaki Boy, born & raised in Fitzroy, NP, close to the mouth of te awa waiwhakaiho & in view of that most spectacular & beautiful maunga in our beloved country.

                  These sorts of things & connections to me keep popping up so much my sister has commented on it.

                  • Dennis Frank …
                    7 November 2021 at 5:39 pm

                    Cool! smiley I retired out of Ak 5 years ago, bought a house on the western fringe, mountain view out the back windows & two-minute walk down the bush track at the end of our cul-de-sac gets me onto back beach. I run there often enough, and have walked to Oakura every summer since. Went to Welbourne Primary back in the fifties, then Highlands (then college in Wanganui, university in Ak).

        • Gezza 21.1.2.2
          6 November 2021 at 7:40 pm

          I would add, Grafton, that sitting outside Welly Hospital on Riddiford Street every day for two weeks, whenever I could, in the open air people-watching, even at Level 2 there is very good compliance with mask-wearing in Welly by the great majority of passers-by – and not just those entering or exiting from the many public transport buses that stop there.

        • joe90 21.1.2.3
          6 November 2021 at 8:12 pm

          but old so more likely severe.

          And you're likely to be at the front of the queue when Pharmac starts dishing out the good shit.

          We have more good news on the small-molecule anti-Covid front. We’ve already seen what look like strong results with molnupiravir, the Merck/Ridgeback/Emory transcriptase inhibitor.

          […]

          We’re getting the protease inhibitor news well before it was expected, because the results were so strong. Told you it was good news! Pfizer’s press release this morning says that when its EPIC-HR trial ran its scheduled interim analysis, it showed an 89% reduction in hospitalization or death when the drug was given to high-risk patients within 3 days of symptom onset, and 85% reduction when given within 5 days. There have, in fact, been no deaths at all in the treatment groups after 28-day follow-up. The trial has now been stopped due to efficacy (they had only made it up to 70% enrollment by that point), and the company is moving up its EUA application as quickly as possible. Note that the treatment regime includes a smaller dose of ritonavir, which is in there not for its antiviral activity (it’s useless as a direct antiviral against the coronavirus), but for its CYP-inhibiting properties, slowing down the metabolic clearance of the actual drug.

          https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/pfizer-s-good-news-world-s-good-news

  22. observer 22
    6 November 2021 at 1:45 pm

    One of the organisers of the anti-vax campaign is Sue Grey, co-leader of the Outdoors Party. Hey, everyone likes a bit of outdoors, right? So they must be good people pushing these protests?

    Meet Alan Simmons, Sue's co-leader and party president. The voice of "freedom":

    https://twitter.com/RawiriTaonui/status/1456580854461845512

    If anyone wants to be an apologist for the protests and the organisers, you are of course free to do so. But do not pretend that you do not know who they are.

    • weka 22.1
      6 November 2021 at 2:40 pm

      that actually cheers me up. The chances of someone like him leading a successful revolution in NZ are very very low.

      • Ad 22.1.1
        6 November 2021 at 5:55 pm

        🙂 the peasants are revolting!

      • Grafton Gully 22.1.2
        6 November 2021 at 6:08 pm

        Unless he gets powerful backers.

        • McFlock 22.1.2.1
          7 November 2021 at 12:08 am

          Especially if they're not after a revolution, just enough bitching and noncompliance so the government backs off and lets them open their businesses. Stuff the lives of customers and employees, their income stream is more important! So they ally with extremists.

          But then that's how the Italian nobility considered Mussolini and the junkers considered Hitler: useful tools. That got a bit out of control on them, though.

  23. observer 23
    6 November 2021 at 6:00 pm

    More from those lovely anti-vax protesters:

    https://www.1news.co.nz/2021/11/06/1news-cameraman-attacked-by-west-coast-anti-vaccine-protesters/

    Yesterday on Open Mike I linked to journos drawing attention to this behaviour. It's not an isolated incident. It's who they are.

    • alwyn 24.1
      6 November 2021 at 9:00 pm

      He is paid, apparently, $134 (US) million over 4 years on his current contract.

      I doubt if he is going to give up his day job to switch to medical research.

    • alwyn 26.1
      6 November 2021 at 9:03 pm

      Someone who actually knows what defenestration really means and uses the word correctly. My faith in the New Zealand education system is (slightly) restored.

      • Gezza 26.1.1
        6 November 2021 at 10:21 pm

        Watching & listening to the tv news, & reading online news sites, these days, sadly, mine is not. 😬 😦 😭 ☹️

      • Craig H 26.1.2
        6 November 2021 at 10:50 pm

        Best (joke) command word I ever learnt was autodefenestrate.

        • SPC 26.1.2.1
          6 November 2021 at 11:19 pm

          When you find something taken from your house and placed in your letter box (sending a message) that someone has a key to the door of your home (and no it was not a landlord but people who infer they are considering and able to plant things to incriminate and legitimise a prosecution).

          It's part of broken windows neighbourhood watch policing of the unemployed/other undesirables (KKK church and police in the late 20th/21st C).

      • SPC 26.1.3
        6 November 2021 at 11:14 pm

        It began with the legend of Samaria, and returned into use after Prague 1618 – start of the Thirty Years War.

  27. SPC 27
    6 November 2021 at 8:19 pm

    The campaign to prepare the public for the re-opening of hospitality (level 3 lightest) in Auckland with the re-opening of schools on Nov 15 is on.

    A rather naked expression of the view that to those with property, this is of equivalent value to the lives of other people.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/leo-molloy-the-date-auckland-must-reopen-otherwise-save-the-icu-beds-for-hospo/SRP6LHF3ZTP2XCFJIGDU5LR5PU/

    • RedLogix 27.1
      6 November 2021 at 8:31 pm

      I'm baffled how the some on the left insists every life must be saved from COVID and at the same time darkly hints at how the world must be de-populated to save it from CC.

      • SPC 27.1.1
        6 November 2021 at 8:45 pm

        That sort of critique sort of depends for relevance to any proposed method of population decline …

        I note the Eco Health Alliance involved with Fauci in the gain of function research at the Wuhan lab for the coronavirus (the same spike protein as in this pandemic ….) is a group concerned about the human population impact on remaining wildlife areas and raising concern about this as a threat to humanity via disease – so we show concern in our own interest. Are we yet convinced … . Of course a population decrease would reduce encroachment on wildlife areas and also reduce carbon/methane emissions.

      • Drowsy M. Kram 27.1.2
        6 November 2021 at 9:58 pm

        COVID and CC are civilisation's self-made problems – spaceship Earth will carry on.

        Imho too many people are already addicted to over-consumption, and I'm not optimistic that we will be able to save all our souls from the consequences of an average 2 degree rise in global temperatures, let alone 1.5 degrees. Time will tell.

        1.5-Degree Lifestyles: Towards A Fair Consumption Space for All
        [PDF; 2021]
        By putting forward the concept of a Fair Consumption Space for All, the report highlights the importance of justice and equity in the transition to a low-carbon society. With limited room for continued emissions—and, particularly, for increasing material footprints among the well-to-do—we need to consider both how to effectively meet basic needs everywhere and how to rein in excessive carbon-intensive consumption. It is no exaggeration to say that overcoming this dual challenge is the greatest task of our current generation. Taking on this task calls for responsible leadership and bold action at all levels but, if we succeed, will demonstrate that we can indeed be good ancestors to future generations.

    • SPC 27.2
      6 November 2021 at 9:03 pm

      I'll walk back my original comment, as Molloy was not writing to call for a re-opening of hospitality (level 3 lightest) with the governments planned one for schools on Nov 15 (which for mine is too early and it should not be before 90/90 is reached or even better in February).

      Given by Dec 1 AK will be around the 90/90 for the traffic light move his advocacy is not extreme, even if a metaphor he used was inappropriate.

      I’d still have the certificates only valid from 2 weeks after the second dose to reduce chances of spread at hospitality locations.

      • Graeme 27.2.1
        6 November 2021 at 11:03 pm

        Hospo's still go to get people to go out, they may not be that keen, even at 90%. around Queenstown most places are dead, hospo and retail, no one wants to be around people they don't know. What trade bars are doing is in small groups that don't mix, in retail people keep their distance and discretionary spending is waaay down the priorities.

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