Open mike 06/03/2015

Written By: - Date published: 8:07 am, March 6th, 2015 - 413 comments
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openmike Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

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Step up to the mike …

413 comments on “Open mike 06/03/2015 ”

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  1. One Anonymous Bloke 1
    6 March 2015 at 8:10 am

    That outage reminded me of Ben Rachinger’s warning the other week. Hack or something less sinister, I bet Lprent didn’t get much sleep.

    Thanks for all the hard work.

    • te reo putake 1.1
      6 March 2015 at 8:18 am

      Something less sinister apparently. But you are right about Lprent’s commitment to getting the Standard up and running. Awesome effort.

      • weka 1.1.1
        6 March 2015 at 9:13 am

        +1000. Was starting to worry a bit by this morning, so glad it’s all ok. Is that the longest outage?

    • marty mars 1.2
      6 March 2015 at 8:19 am

      yep thanks from me too Lynn.

    • RedBaronCV 1.3
      6 March 2015 at 8:29 am

      Thank you Lprent – I feared a takedown. Is there another site that would post status of this one for you if you needed it?

      • One Anonymous Bloke 1.3.1
        6 March 2015 at 8:31 am

        The Daily Blog had a post up offering asylum while TS was down.

        • greywarshark 1.3.1.1
          6 March 2015 at 9:47 am

          OAB
          Really! Hah.

          and RedBaronCV
          Good idea. I didn’t know whether it was my dodgy connection, even got annoyed then paranoied.

        • Stephanie Rodgers 1.3.1.2
          6 March 2015 at 9:51 am

          To be perfectly accurate, the Daily Blog had a post up saying they “had offered” TS authors asylum. Which was news to me.

          To be fair it is difficult for Bomber to communicate with me since he’s blocked me on Twitter. 🙄

          • marty mars 1.3.1.2.1
            6 March 2015 at 10:31 am

            lol blocked on twitter and offered an asylum – he’s doing a lot of blocking and besmirching – I wonder why.

            • Once was Tim 1.3.1.2.1.1
              6 March 2015 at 2:30 pm

              Wonder not – it’s wasted energy. I still wonder why the little spats between various protagonists within our ‘broad church’ these days.
              Sometimes I think I should just shout various folks a hotel room and let ’em get on with it.
              When it comes down to it – each can be as bad (or good) as the other.
              Unfortunately it just isn’t PC these days to just bang a couple of craniums together.
              OMG
              LOLZ
              STFU – no YOU stfu

              Time and energy is precious yes?

              No doubt there’ll be many (most) thinking what the fuck are you on about Tim

      • lprent 1.3.2
        6 March 2015 at 8:48 am

        Yeah good point. I should have put one up.

      • felix 1.3.3
        6 March 2015 at 10:36 am

        Luckily thestandard has a mirror site at yawnnz…

    • Colonial Rawshark 1.4
      6 March 2015 at 8:33 am

      Yep. On a day that debate about NZ’s role in the FVEY alliance was roaring away, the Standard goes down.

      Someone has been doing legendary work getting it back up. Thank you.

      • lprent 1.4.1
        6 March 2015 at 8:47 am

        Just a pain. I need a better failover.

      • TheContrarian 1.4.2
        6 March 2015 at 8:50 am

        “Yep. On a day that debate about NZ’s role in the FVEY alliance was roaring away, the Standard goes down.”

        Yeah of course, The Standard is of such a danger to the five eyes alliance/GCSB/NSA that it must have been taken down.

        • northshoredoc 1.4.2.1
          6 March 2015 at 9:06 am

          …more likely that it was big pharma that closed the site down due to the vaccination debate..

        • Colonial Rawshark 1.4.2.2
          6 March 2015 at 9:09 am

          Remember that it doesn’t even cost them an extra dollar for them to launch a DoS attack on a website.

          And there have been documented cases where the security services have taken down cell phone networks, internet access, access to financial transaction systems, when it suited them to.

          • TheContrarian 1.4.2.2.1
            6 March 2015 at 9:22 am

            Yeah…”them”

            • Colonial Rawshark 1.4.2.2.1.1
              6 March 2015 at 9:43 am

              Remember, in a security and surveillance state, if you don’t have secret or top secret security clearance, you are a second grade citizen. The ones with clearances are more trusted, get access to jobs, contracts and budgets that you cannot get access to, and know more about what is happening in society than you do.

              • TheContrarian …
                6 March 2015 at 10:13 am

                Yeah and The Standard is such a threat they thought they’d take it down for 9 hours. That’ll teach ’em

        • Tracey 1.4.2.3
          6 March 2015 at 9:16 am

          and the people having holidays in Tuvalu present a danger, how?

    • Chooky 1.5
      6 March 2015 at 8:36 am

      +100…i realised i am addicted…not good…but better than some other things…btw where is philip ure…i miss his comments

      • lprent 1.5.1
        6 March 2015 at 8:40 am

        Off for a two week ban. Made comment that looked like it was defamatory, without providing a backing link. Turned out he was correct, so I halved it down. Don’t have time to moderate and read all news.

        • Skinny 1.5.1.1
          6 March 2015 at 9:17 am

          I was wondering what was up thought i’d been sent to timeout with Ure.

          My partner didn’t miss a trick ” have you been banned from that blog site you ‘live on’ …your actually being sociable having a drink without looking at your phone every 10 minutes, ” I said “yeah looks like it.”

          She replies “I could tell when I got home, you take a day off work do all the house work including the washing…. this is a first, here give me a look I got banned off lizard club once for arguing with the mod.. nah your alright you could still read just not comment…pity.”

          • Chooky 1.5.1.1.1
            6 March 2015 at 10:49 am

            lol…yes i thought i had been banned too….was wracking my brains as to what I had done…more than usual

      • Pasipial 1.5.2
        6 March 2015 at 9:03 am

        Chooky

        I reckon you’d be in a minority in missing Ure’s disruptive babble. Not that I always disagreed with his points, but the; noise to signal ratio, was way too high. Usually I just found myself scrolling past that distraction, though my wheel finger sometimes started cramping up with the enormity of that task.

        • Chooky 1.5.2.1
          6 March 2015 at 9:10 am

          pu is actually quite perceptive and highly intelligent imo…i find his comments easy to read …but I am a speed reader….i dont always agree with him of course

          • Rodel 1.5.2.1.1
            6 March 2015 at 9:57 am

            Pasipial I agree TS is better without the babble and 2 fingers are slowly recovering from RSI (rapid scroll injury)
            Chooky I think you will be in a minority. I don’t miss the incoherence or the Tourette’s like abuse (compulsive utterances of obscenities.)

            • McFlock 1.5.2.1.1.1
              6 March 2015 at 6:50 pm

              Can’t say as I miss him all that much.
              An obsessive, insecure mediocrity with a thoroughly undeserved ego lurking behind frequently unintelligible composition. His ability to ignore what someone else wrote and instead respond to what was written on the inside of his eyelids was always impressive, though, as was his habit of using that ability to snatch victory from the jaws of delusion.

            • McFlock 1.5.2.1.1.2
              7 March 2015 at 9:44 am

              although it does seem that the place falls apart without him 🙂

          • Once was Tim 1.5.2.1.2
            6 March 2015 at 2:40 pm

            +1. I came across him many years back – he one of those ‘acquaintances’ of my brother’s and a rough justice crowd of specimens.
            Although at the time I thought of him as a bit of a wanker, I’ve come to see that he’s actually a very perceptive and compassionate CONTRIBUTOR – and someone who has successfully overcome the effects of an illness. I have to admire that – it’s not that easy.
            It’s a shame others don’t actually see that but its no surprise to me they don’t. But Christ! …. I wish he wouldn’t preach (thanks to TS though – I learned to get passed all that)

            • Chooky 1.5.2.1.2.1
              7 March 2015 at 9:53 am

              …I think peoples comments on pu are partially a projection…ie the comments say something about the commenter…so interesting!

        • gsays 1.5.2.2
          6 March 2015 at 9:27 am

          hi pasipial, that minority is one tick bigger, i have missed the input from pu.

          also i would like to echo comments earlier this open mike, in that i missed being able to read ts, (more than i thought i would), and thank you lprent for the work done in ressurecting the site.

          • Molly 1.5.2.2.1
            6 March 2015 at 9:35 am

            +1 both for philu and lprent

            • Belladonna 1.5.2.2.1.1
              6 March 2015 at 9:38 am

              +1

              • marty mars …
                6 March 2015 at 9:45 am

                + 1 although he can be irritating but no more so than many others imo

                • greywarshark …
                  6 March 2015 at 9:54 am

                  @ marty mars
                  His approach is to keep on and add on and stir on it then on something else. Too many, and not varied enough. Takes up space on the page, might have to put up a search ‘not pu’ to find the next new commenter.

                  • Chooky …
                    6 March 2015 at 10:57 am

                    greywarshark…you need to speed read…he is a lot more readable than many

                    • the pigman …
                      6 March 2015 at 8:05 pm

                      I am sure phil will be pleased to see that his absence is so widely noted, anyway…

                      … whoar … or something.

    • lprent 1.6
      6 March 2015 at 9:04 am

      I was in bed by 0300 while the linux was upgrading itself. Out of bed at 0700 to finish it off. Getting ready for work at 0805. At work with a sandwich and coffee at 0845. Reading startup emails now.

      • Pasupial 1.6.1
        6 March 2015 at 10:38 am

        lprent

        Wow – that certainly makes my own day seem less hectic (and sleep deprivation less extreme). It’s not that I don’t appreciate the time and skill you bring to the maintenance of this site, but you really ought to spread the load a bit further. Imagine if you were struck down by an autumn illness – we’d all end up like Skinny and have to interact with physical people and catch up on neglected activities in the meat-world!

    • weka 1.7
      6 March 2015 at 9:16 am

      “That outage reminded me of Ben Rachinger’s warning the other week.”

      I was thinking about that last night too. Anyone know what happened to his spat with the DP crowd?

      • the pigman 1.7.1
        6 March 2015 at 8:07 pm

        I think BR might be a bit of a compulsive exaggerator/bs artist/attention seeker. I started following him on twitter, all his stuff about his WO dump being the tip of an iceberg, etc., etc., came to zilch. Lots of comparing himself to Einstein and MLK though.

    • David H 1.8
      6 March 2015 at 12:58 pm

      Thanks from me as well.

    • Murray Rawshark 1.9
      7 March 2015 at 7:10 pm

      Thanks lprent. I do appreciate your hard work.

  2. CnrJoe 2
    6 March 2015 at 8:15 am

    An outage? While Cooking with Brucey is on The Guyon Suzie Show?
    Ham and whitebait fritters sponsored by Countdown.

    • framu 2.1
      6 March 2015 at 8:52 am

      i heard that interview too

      my god – BF took deliberate side stepping and feigned lack of comprehension to some staggering levels

      he should be utterly ashamed of his performance – purely on the basis of sounding like a complete ass who couldnt argue his way round a lamp post

      • greywarshark 2.1.1
        6 March 2015 at 10:03 am

        Hah got you. BF is Bruce Ferguson previous something important in surveillance, (is that right?). Bletchley Park I need your Help phone number.

  3. vto 3
    6 March 2015 at 8:23 am

    Why is it that residential landlords are consistently some of the dimmest people around…

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/67027557/rbnz-told-to-leave-property-investors-alone

    • Weepus beard 3.1
      6 March 2015 at 8:28 am

      Dimmest. Greediest.

    • Tracey 3.2
      6 March 2015 at 9:18 am

      Basically saying leave the market alone even though it is a failure of market that is leading to huge capital gains for its members. The property Investor feels persecuted and is trying to stave off oppression. They are freedom fighters all.

    • RedLogix 3.3
      6 March 2015 at 10:19 am

      For what its worth I think these RBNZ proposals are perfectly reasonable and quite well thought through.

      Most investors – as distinct from speculators – would quite likely learn to live with them. The Property Institute of New Zealand should stick to ITS knitting and butt out of fiscal policy.

  4. te aro pundit 4
    6 March 2015 at 8:42 am

    Anyone heard about last night’s TV3 Northland snap poll? Winston is ahead on 35%, National’s Mark Osborne is behind at 30% and Willow-Jean Prime trails at 16%. All other candidates at 11% and 8% still undecided. Poll had a sample of 500. Looks like it’s win-win for Winston and a shock result for the Nats.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1
      6 March 2015 at 8:55 am

      Will it put paid to the confident predictions of a National win that’s all Labour’s fault?

    • Pasipial 4.2
      6 March 2015 at 9:09 am

      TAP

      I just mentioned it over on lprent’s Northland post. Saw it over on TDB when TS was down. Another thing I saw was this!

      It just seems churlish to ask Laila for money when Kelvin worked with Key, Winston Peters, Maori Party, John Key, Cameron Slater and David Farrar to deny her entry into Parliament.

      Labour’s email list should probably get updated.

      http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2015/03/05/kelvin-davis-asks-laila-for-donation/#sthash.t8TYbtS4.dpuf

      • marty mars 4.2.1
        6 March 2015 at 9:30 am

        yeah I saw that begging letter lol

        winnie may have the legs but where are labour – is little up there banging around to uplift his candidate? I haven’t heard – what is happening with the labour campaign, apart from the leaflets (snif) of course, is there any littlelabour noise at all up there or is winnie just running rings around them all

        • Colonial Rawshark 4.2.1.1
          6 March 2015 at 9:50 am

          Labour are asking members to raise a tonne of money for the Northland by-election campaign. The target budget is significant, for a by-election.

          One of our Andersons Bay Peninsula Branch organisers said “I could lose that election for just half the money that Wellington thinks it can do it for.”

        • Stephanie Rodgers 4.2.1.2
          6 March 2015 at 9:58 am

          Why not look at the very active Facebook page for Willow-Jean Prime’s campaign?
          https://www.facebook.com/willowprime

          Seems to be a heck of a lot going on, and a lot of Labour MPs pitching in.

          • marty mars 4.2.1.2.1
            6 March 2015 at 10:16 am

            thank you for the link – I’m not one of her 4100ish likes and none of my friends are labour friends on fb so good to see lots of action from her labour mates supporting her

            I wonder when little is getting up there – that should shoulder winnie off the news

          • Pasupial 4.2.1.2.2
            6 March 2015 at 10:19 am

            SR

            “Why not look at the very active Facebook page for Willow-Jean Prime’s campaign?”

            Because it’s on facebook.

            • Colonial Rawshark 4.2.1.2.2.1
              6 March 2015 at 11:24 am

              Stasibook

              Inform on your friends and family for free. Let corporate moguls monetize your personal relationships.

              The FVEYs thank you, as do Facebook’s shareholders.

              • marty mars …
                6 March 2015 at 11:55 am

                lol and they aren’t tracking you anyway – hide out in the open – paranoia is the real enemy that destroys real relationships and community.

          • Draco T Bastard 4.2.1.2.3
            6 March 2015 at 10:42 am

            And Labour will still lose the election. No amount of activism, money or FB likes will change that outcome.

            • Stephanie Rodgers 4.2.1.2.3.1
              6 March 2015 at 11:02 am

              I was answering marty’s question about “what is happening with the labour campaign”, not commenting on their chances of winning.

              The irony is that I was one of the first people at TS to say it wasn’t a winnable seat for Labour, and got roundly denounced as a defeatist sell-out for it.

              • Colonial Rawshark …
                6 March 2015 at 11:35 am

                The irony is that I was one of the first people at TS to say it wasn’t a winnable seat for Labour, and got roundly denounced as a defeatist sell-out for it.

                Not denounced by Standardistas or anyone who can tally up September’s election results, I hope. And as you know, Labour wants to pour money into losing the Northland campaign…

                • Stephanie Rodgers …
                  6 March 2015 at 12:04 pm

                  See for yourself:
                  http://thestandard.org.nz/the-northland-by-election/

                  And as I argue in that post, winning the seat shouldn’t be the real point for Labour. It’s a great opportunity to get the Labour message out there.

                  It’s possibly taboo to say so but the fact is that National losing Northland doesn’t do a hell of a lot to damage their ability to govern. Just means they only need 2 votes from partners (i.e. only the Maori Party or both Seymour and Dunne) instead of 1. So all the excitement about Winston potentially winning is a little misdirected.

                  • te reo putake …
                    6 March 2015 at 12:20 pm

                    Not necessarily misdirected, Stephanie. I heard something curious last night that indicates the difficulties losing a seat causes National. In Parliament, to be passed, a proposition must have majority support. A tie is a loss.

                    The curious remark was that the funding for the Iraq posting was not covered in the defence forces budget for this year and would need to be paid for with a separate authorisation which would be voted on in Parliament. If that is true, then given the Maori Party and Dunne’s opposition, Key may find himself severely embarrassed when the numbers are counted. At the very least, he’ll need to do some serious sucking up to get one or the other of those parties to at least abstain.

                    Now, I don’t know whether that really is the case, but for anything contentious, they will need to consult in a genuine way. And for anything that might be a conscience vote, they may be in deep trouble.

                    Fingers crossed, anyway.

    • weka 4.3
      6 March 2015 at 9:17 am

      Almost makes me think I’d have to vote for Peters if I lived in Northland, damn.

      • Tracey 4.3.1
        6 March 2015 at 9:19 am

        I could bring myself to do it if I had to. His winebox work alone deserves it… when he shone some big light into the 1% and the Labour/Nats who benefitted and enabled it.

        • Rodel 4.3.1.1
          6 March 2015 at 10:32 am

          Weka and Tracey-me too.I could almost.

          The Nat candidate, Osbourne is it?, on radio nz this morning presented as jaunty and synthetically positive but of little substance, still using the Crosby Textor ‘look -look’ interpolations long since discarded by his colleagues.

          I take little notice of polls, especially samples of only 500 and probably with a margin of error of, oh say, 100% but a win for Winston would be cat-pigeon politics at its best.

          Just hope people in the North are now motivated to vote.

        • weka 4.3.1.2
          6 March 2015 at 10:46 am

          Fair doos re the winbox, but my concern is the consequences of giving Peters more power at this point in time.

          • Rosie 4.3.1.2.1
            6 March 2015 at 11:04 am

            I think it would be his last starburst of glory weka, He could end on a high note – the next two and half years as MP for Northland. He would of course need to do all the work he is saying he would do for Northland, not just sit it out for the rest of the term. It could be his last act of service to the people before he retires, and it could be interesting.

            • weka 4.3.1.2.1.1
              6 March 2015 at 11:08 am

              You think he wouldn’t stand at the next election? And that he wouldn’t screw the GP/left again?

              • Rosie …
                6 March 2015 at 11:37 am

                I have no idea weka. I should imagine he would assess the political landscape in 2017 and make his mind up from there, but retirement will be looking appealing by then perhaps. He could put his feet up and drink that whiskey that he likes so well.

                I don’t think there is that much damage left that he can do. Whilst he has been an enemy to the Left in the past, we have a far bigger enemy in our govt, and that enemy is his enemy.

                That old our “enemies enemy is our friend”, comes to mind, even if it’s not a friend you’d like to hang out with, or you’d be embarrassed to be seen with.

                I’m just being practical. Who would you rather have in parliament? That kooky inexperienced Mark Osbourne being a nodding dog or Winnie, whose current flavour is anti govt, and who will weaken our govt’s ability to pass bills, if they didn’t get support from Dunne or Flavell?

              • Colonial Rawshark …
                6 March 2015 at 11:43 am

                He’ll stand again in 2017. I reckon he has one more full term in him. The man could do more Parliamentary work on his deathbed than half the National backbench added together.

                • Rosie …
                  6 March 2015 at 11:53 am

                  He does have a lot of vigour and zeal for one so fond of booze n fags. Gotta hand that to him. He has always been committed to work.

                  As an aside, I thought the age related digs at him by the Labour team, who were sharing the same spot for the street corner meeting were unkind and unnecessary. Would have been fair enough to attack him for his policies but not his age.

                  Some one shouted that he needed a walking frame.

              • Tracey …
                6 March 2015 at 12:34 pm

                could be, but I know what Osbourne will do

        • Rosie 4.3.1.3
          6 March 2015 at 10:58 am

          Yeah, I’d do it, If I were a Northlander, I’d vote Winnie. There would a moment’s discomfort at the ballot box, a slight twinge of angst at the betrayal of values, but I’d shrug that off for the greater good.

          Worth it just to see Key’s face go over all dark when the votes come in.

        • Once was Tim 4.3.1.4
          6 March 2015 at 3:02 pm

          “I could bring myself to do it if I had to. His winebox work alone deserves it….”
          +100.
          Me too.
          I’m not sure the LP apparatus is yet conscious of how they’re perceived amongst the voting public.
          The saying ‘beggars can’t be choosers’ springs to mind for me (and that’s after almost a lifetime of loyalty – until Helen’s 3rd term when I realised I, and many others were just being taken for granted). They’d chosen to just have a lay down instead of trying to roll back more of the Ruthenasia/Rogergnome era – talk about missed opportunities.

          Winnie the Poo has an ego the size of that double-rear axled bus he’s getting around in a.t.m – but it seems he is probably the most realistic thing there is of getting rid of a regime/ a junta they purport to despise

          I’m not sure this Bi-E and 2017 is probably make or break time for the LP. It’s just a shame that their candidate seems like a thoroughly nice person.
          Being unprincipled (by say not contesting/endorsing Winnie) is probably one of the only ways of getting LP principles back – its just that I’m not convinced that’s what they ekshly want to do yet (having allowed a few to have hijacked the party this past 30 years)

    • Skinny 4.4
      6 March 2015 at 9:55 am

      Who’s your Daddy John Key!

      Seriously Key put the kiss of death on his no name candidate with his idiot comment “zero chance” you would have thought after his insulting comment made during the cup of tea deal with bent Bankie ” that NZF voters were dying off ” that he would show
      some respect.

      The interesting aspect is 54% of Tory voters thought they should have been told of the Sabin issue prior to the election, people like to make an informed decision, no one likes being handed bullshit. The 19% either undecided or choosing an independent candidate shows a further rebellion. There is also a lot of speculation that John Carters ‘patsy’ candidate was right in the thick of the alleged cover up. He was an executive member of the Northland (Sabin’s) committee. He has denied any knowledge, something Duncan Garner has labeled bullshit lies.

      • Karen 4.4.1
        6 March 2015 at 10:13 am

        i must admit I am surprised at how poor the Nat candidate is. Strange choice.
        Not only is he lacking in charisma, he is treasurer of the LEC and lives in the same area as Sabin yet says he knew nothing about the investigation into Sabin until it hit the media?

        Meanwhile Winston is driving a blue bus around Northland doing old style campaigning that is obviously designed to appeal to National Party voters. I didn’t think Winston could win, but having now seen the way he is campaigning against a totally inadequate opponent perhaps he can do it, particularly if more info about Sabin comes out before the election.

        • Rosie 4.4.1.1
          6 March 2015 at 11:42 am

          +1 Karen.

          A question. Whats the likelihood of more info coming out about Sabin before the by election?

        • Anne 4.4.1.2
          6 March 2015 at 3:14 pm

          Meanwhile Winston is driving a blue bus around Northland doing old style campaigning…

          lols. He doesn’t miss a trick.

    • Draco T Bastard 4.5
      6 March 2015 at 10:19 am

      As I said the other day, all Labour and other party voters need to be voting for Winston. He’s got a chance of kicking National out of Northland whereas Labour hasn’t got snowball’s chance in a furnace.

      • Colonial Rawshark 4.5.1
        6 March 2015 at 11:49 am

        Yep. The weird thing is that there was never really a winning scenario for Labour in any event, and plenty of possible losing scenarios, if you accept that Labour was not going to overturn the 5000+ vote lead that National had after September’s election even when LAB and GR votes are added together.

        Winston winning is a big loss of face for Labour. Winston coming in second to National with Labour third, is a big loss of face for Labour. Winston pulling even with LAB as 2nd equal with National winning, is a big loss of face for Labour.

        Labour coming in second to National with Winnie third, meh that would be simply meeting expectations – not a win for Labour.

        Poor strategising in the red camp.

  5. amirite 5
    6 March 2015 at 9:09 am

    A day of shame for New Zealand, and a sad day for NZ workers, when this Government has further cut your employment rights:

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/267903/flexible-working-hours-law-comes-in-today

    • Tracey 5.1
      6 March 2015 at 9:21 am

      which is odd when Michael Woodhouse doesn’t think he can legislate employer behaviour, while legislating for employer behaviour toward workers.

    • Rosie 5.2
      6 March 2015 at 11:08 am

      Yep thats right. Today is the day we say goodbye to good faith bargaining and say goodbye to the right to a tea break.

      It is indeed shameful and sad. So much hard work getting work rights into law has just gone to waste, and those rights have vanished so easily under the Key Govt.

  6. The Murphey 6
    6 March 2015 at 9:38 am

    India: Paralysis cases soar after oral polio vaccine introduced

    A new report by two Delhi pediatricians suggests that the sharp rise in childhood paralysis in India is due to the increased usage of the oral polio vaccine, a drug that was banned in the U.S. over a decade ago

    Drug companies and regulators have long known about the harmful effects of the oral polio vaccine that includes the live virus. In 1976, vaccine inventor Jonas Salk admitted to the United States Congress that the live polio vaccine was the “principal if not sole cause” of all reported polio cases in the U.S. since 1961, according to Salem News.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 6.1
      6 March 2015 at 9:42 am

      Someone did some science and you believe them on this occasion.

      Slow clap.

      • Colonial Rawshark 6.1.1
        6 March 2015 at 9:55 am

        Yours is an odd response. The link shows The Murphy (and myself) as having some scientific basis for advising caution against calls for compulsory vaccination.

        As I have been consistently saying – you cannot treat all vaccinations as being equally worthwhile under all circumstances and contexts. To do so would be “anti-science” and ignore a whole lot of knowledge and experience we have gathered over decades on vaccination.

        You should recognise that instead of red herring The Murphey’s comment.

        • northshoredoc 6.1.1.1
          6 March 2015 at 10:01 am

          Yours is an even more odd response which ignores the fact that we use IPV in NZ.

          • Colonial Rawshark 6.1.1.1.1
            6 March 2015 at 11:54 am

            I accept that the risk doesn’t apply to the particular vaccine that we use in NZ. Indeed, we should be judging each specific vaccine on its particular merits, benefits and risks.

            But an estimated 47,500 cases of vaccination related deadly paralysis in a poor country like India gives one a bit of pause.

            • northshoredoc 6.1.1.1.1.1
              6 March 2015 at 12:07 pm

              http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19712176

              ” This study is an overview of non-polio enterovirus (NPEV) circulating in North India studied from the perspective of poliomyelitis eradication. Wild polio cases declined because of intensive oral polio vaccine immunization. As we approach global eradication of poliovirus (PV), NPEV causing acute flaccid paralysis (AFP) are equal cause of concern.

              A total of 46 653 AFP samples (World Health Organization) and apparently 1000 healthy contacts living in the same geographical area were studied (2004-2007). Serological identification of NPEV was done using RIVM-specific pools (The Netherlands). Untyped (UT)-NPEVs were sequenced directly from reverse transcription-polymerase chain reaction using pan-enterovirus (Pan-EV) primer (CDC, Atlanta, GA) targeting highly conserved 5’un-translated regions of the enterovirus.

              RESULTS:
              In this study, 12 513 NPEVs were isolated from the collected stool samples. Seroneutralization had identified 67% of NPEV isolates, whereas 32.6% remained as UT- NPEV. Of the typed NPEVs, Coxsackie-B accounted for 32.3%; followed by echoviruses-11, 12, 13, 7 between 8 and 28%. In sequencing few UT-NPEVs, some were identified also as echovirus-30, 11 and 18 which were probably present in mixtures as they remained UT-NPEV in ENT. Newly classified human enterovirus virus-86 (HEV) (EU079026), HEV-97(EU071767) and HEV-B isolate (EU071768) were isolated in AFP samples.

              CONCLUSIONS:
              This study provided definitive information about circulation, prevalence and new emerging NPEV in the polio-endemic region of India, hence they should be considered in AFP surveillance. This would help in adopting and planning new strategies in post-PV eradication era in the country. This is the right time to prepare for the future tasks while we head towards a polio-free region.

        • Chooky 6.1.1.2
          6 March 2015 at 11:00 am

          +100 CR and The Murphey

        • One Anonymous Bloke 6.1.1.3
          6 March 2015 at 12:39 pm

          Can’t you figure it out CR? Here’s a little clue:

          Science is in a state of human negotiated and perpetual change…

          Until a newspaper reports that “scientists say” something The Murphey believes. Then it’s gospel, and worthy of copy-pasting with zero original content.

          In short, a waste of everyone’s oxygen.

          • Colonial Rawshark 6.1.1.3.1
            6 March 2015 at 1:00 pm

            Oh and here I was thinking that science was all ready to pronounce absolutes like compulsory vaccination, and that people opposed to that stance were “science deniers”. I stand corrected.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 6.1.1.3.1.1
              6 March 2015 at 1:13 pm

              You believe your own strawman. Why doesn’t that surprise me?

              • Colonial Rawshark …
                6 March 2015 at 1:16 pm

                And then late in the day you accepted that voluntary vaccination was actually shown by the evidence to be a GOOD THING.

                • One Anonymous Bloke …
                  6 March 2015 at 1:27 pm

                  🙄

                  You want to play twist my words again, do you?

                  That was right about the time you said that goat shit makes a good homeopathic remedy that scientists can learn something from, and then went on to praise Clare Curran’s performance.

                  • Colonial Rawshark …
                    6 March 2015 at 1:46 pm

                    I think I represented your comment quite fairly:

                    PS: compulsory vaccination is opposed by the health profession because it compromises the doctor/patient relationship and evidence (yes, that boring stuff again) shows it would reduce the immunisation rate.

                    http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-04032015/#comment-979572

                    Happy to be corrected though.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      6 March 2015 at 1:53 pm

                      That was when I “accepted” that was it?

                      Or perhaps I never advocated for vaccines to be compulsory in the first place, and in your slack-brained inattention you were clutching at straws, because my comments were aimed primarily at feeble attempts to misrepresent research instead, and you couldn’t rebut them.

                      Or perhaps my name is Draco The Bastard.

    • northshoredoc 6.2
      6 March 2015 at 9:43 am

      There are 2 types of polio vaccine used in the world today.

      New Zealand and most other developed countries use the inactivated polio vaccine (IPV). This contains dead (inactivated) polio virus – so it can’t cause illness. The vaccine is provided as an injection, usually with other childhood immunisations.

      In the past, New Zealand used the oral polio vaccine. Many developing countries still use this vaccine. It contains a live but weakened form of the virus. It is easier to store, transport and administer than the inactivated polio vaccine, and provides longer-lasting immunity. However, the weakened virus can cause polio in about 1 in 750,000 cases. Because of this risk, New Zealand switched to using the inactivated vaccine in 2002.

      The World Health Organization plans to withdraw the oral polio vaccine worldwide when polio nears global elimination.

      http://www.health.govt.nz/your-health/conditions-and-treatments/diseases-and-illnesses/polio-poliomyelitis

      • Molly 6.2.1
        6 March 2015 at 9:59 am

        I remember a case where a mother caught polio from changing a nappy after her child had been vaccinated. She thought she had been immunised, but can’t find any reference to it now.

        I believe this is part of the reason for the change in 2002.

        This NZ Herald article refers to a father – but IIRC I remember the story being about a female and having a photo accompanying it:

        “In the years since the battle was won, only a handful of cases of polio have been recorded – including one where a parent appeared to have caught the disease while changing the nappy of his three-month-old baby inoculated with the live virus. Cases such as this led the Ministry of Health to switch back this year to the inactivated or killed variety of vaccine.”

        • northshoredoc 6.2.1.1
          6 March 2015 at 10:02 am

          ..and some people will be old enough to remember the days before polio vaccine was available and the mayhem this virus caused around the world.

          • David H 6.2.1.1.1
            6 March 2015 at 1:08 pm

            I am. I was born in Britain ion the 1950’s, and I am immunised. I had to be to leave England in the late 60’s.
            So yeah I remember the kids with the Brace on their leg, hopping and stumping along . BUT they were always in the thick of the games, or mischief making,

          • Molly 6.2.1.1.2
            7 March 2015 at 10:35 am

            I have a relative who contracted the disease in his childhood. In his late fifties – early sixties, he had an illness that was supposedly related. Apparently, many of the children that survived polio had a similar incident in later lives.

            Perhaps you will know more?

          • Molly 6.2.1.1.3
            7 March 2015 at 10:37 am

            Just asking. Do you not read the links? I was providing additional information regarding the change in NZ in 2002, not criticising the vaccine?

            • weka 6.2.1.1.3.1
              7 March 2015 at 10:48 am

              I noticed that too and wondered if your comment hadn’t been read properly (I didn’t read the link but understood what you meant).

      • The Murphey 6.2.2
        6 March 2015 at 10:09 am

        Q. WHO tolerate childhood paralysis ?

        Q. How many cases of polio are recorded globally every year ?

        http://www.health.govt.nz/your-health/healthy-living/immunisation/vaccine-safety

        Medsafe’s evaluation is performed to internationally defined standards and is based on data from clinical trials.

        The gold standard for clinical trials includes three phases:
        Phase 1:
        Small numbers of people take the same vaccine using different methods of delivery and/or dosage. Assesses safety and immune response.

        Phase 2:
        Uses larger numbers of people and compares new treatments with a placebo. Continues to assess safety and immune response.

        Phase 3:
        Large, randomised trial(s) to test the effect of a new vaccine against a control group. This phase tests safety and efficacy, which is the percentage of people that the vaccine protects from catching the disease.

        Provide examples of where and how The Gold Standard has been proven to be followed in development of recent vaccinations as they relate to those used on children and pregnant women

        • northshoredoc 6.2.2.1
          6 March 2015 at 10:15 am

          A. I don’t feed trolls

        • Colonial Rawshark 6.2.2.2
          6 March 2015 at 12:15 pm

          The Murphey – your line of reasoning is bloody sharp.

          The truth of course is that vaccinations tend to be tested using much easier to measure intermediate indicators (like antibody titres), not real life clinical end points.

          But with too many drugs nowadays the real trial is done en masse on real patients post mass marketing.

          One reason never to use a recently introduced drug, if at all possible.

          • northshoredoc 6.2.2.2.1
            6 March 2015 at 1:01 pm

            🙄

            • Colonial Rawshark 6.2.2.2.1.1
              6 March 2015 at 1:40 pm

              My personal standard is to not touch any drug which has not been on the market for 10 years or more. Usually leaves plenty of choices though if you need treatment. A rather significant proportion of drugs are pulled off the market within the first 10 years of mass marketing – or get “black box” warnings added, etc.

          • Chooky 6.2.2.2.2
            6 March 2015 at 1:36 pm

            CR +100…”The Murphey – your line of reasoning is bloody sharp”…way more sharp than than some other commenters here

            …and note they don’t reply to his arguments or anyone else’s directly…they just roll their eyes …or go off on a tangent… or ignore the arguments altogether …and/or diss the person

            ….makes me think they have vested interests …and are not interested in real discourse

            • One Anonymous Bloke 6.2.2.2.2.1
              6 March 2015 at 1:41 pm

              Is that what you think an argument is? Cutting and pasting someone else’s work, presenting it out of context, and lying about the World Health Organisation?

              Paging Dr. Dunning-Kruger.

            • McFlock 6.2.2.2.2.2
              6 March 2015 at 3:21 pm

              Personally, I’m just waiting for the results of the muffrey’s OIA request to MoH as to which vaccines in NZ have been given “gold standard” evaluation, and also in regards children and pregnant women.

              I mean, it’s not like he’s just shallowly demanding blog commenters to do his research for him, is he? “Real discourse” would be him providing evidence for his own claims…

              • The Murphey …
                6 March 2015 at 3:58 pm

                MOH defers to the CDC

                Q. Where is the evidence of the gold standard ?

                Should pregnant women be immunised?

                Pregnant women can be immunised with inactive (non-live) vaccines. There is no evidence of a safety risk for the mother or her fetus. In some countries regular contact with a woman during pregnancy is used to ensure she is up to date with her tetanus and diphtheria immunisations and also reduce the risk of neonatal tetanus.

                Pregnant women are at high risk for influenza and in New Zealand immunisation against this disease is not only recommended but also funded for a pregnant woman at any time during her pregnancy. There is also evidence that an influenza immunisation in the late stages of pregnancy can also provide protection against influenza in the newborn infant.

                A free whooping cough booster immunisation, with a combined tetanus, diphtheria, pertussis vaccine, is free for women between 28-38 weeks of pregnancy to reduce their risk of getting the disease and passing it onto their newborn baby. When the booster immunisation is given before 36 weeks of pregnancy some protection will cross the placenta and may reduce the severity of whopping cough in babies for up to six weeks after they are born.

                It is also important for pregnant women, who are at risk of be infected with hepatitis B, receive the course of hepatis B immunisations as soon as their risk is identified.

                Live vaccines, e.g. measles/mumps/rubella (MMR) and chicken pox vaccines, are not intentionally administered to pregnant women. Although overseas research has not found any cases of injury to the unborn child when the MMR vaccine was inadvertently given just before or during pregnancy it is recommended that women delay becoming pregnant for one month after receiving a live vaccine.

                It is recommended that close contacts of pregnant women are immune to measles and rubella. They can receive the MMR vaccine without risk to the pregnant woman or her fetus.

                Q. Where is the evidence ?

                • McFlock …
                  6 March 2015 at 4:09 pm

                  🙄

                  Here’s what I just did:
                  I googled: “vaccine schedule nz”
                  right up the top, because I’m in NZ I guess, we got the MoH imms schedule.
                  This gives us brand names of individual vaccines.
                  Those brand names fed into another google search give us the datasheets for each vaccine, e.g. rorateq the rotovirus vaccine. CDC not required. There, now you learned something.

                  BTW, “no evidence” means “no evidence”, not “no testing”. E.g. the rotateq datasheet advises no doses under specific contingencies on the grounds that those contingencies weren’t tested in trials.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke …
                    6 March 2015 at 4:13 pm

                    Oh, but McFlock, science is always changing in a permanent and wibbly wobbly way. Those search results might mean something completely different next week.

                    Q. Why is the Moon?

                    • McFlock …
                      6 March 2015 at 4:21 pm

                      I can’t answer your Q without context of what the charstring “moon” denotes, if indeed a physical universe exists separately from the subjective universes of forms and the charstring “moon” denotes a specific object or set of objects within that subjectively objective reality. If there is no physical universe, then I believe the A. from my true reality of forms is “Purple Goat Probe”, according to the context of “moon”.

                  • The Murphey …
                    6 March 2015 at 4:19 pm

                    ‘No evidence ‘ without providing qualitative evidence is meaningless irrespective of where the word use originates

                    Q. Where is evidence of gold standard in your comment or the source you quote ?

                    • McFlock …
                      6 March 2015 at 4:24 pm

                      Really? You couldn’t see any evidence of clinical trials in the rotateq data sheet?

                      Or if you need information on rotateq in even greater detail, do you seriously need me to google “rotateq clinical trial information” for you?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      6 March 2015 at 4:35 pm

                      Of course there’d be pre-licensure trials on pregnant women. Can’t see any reason not to do those.

                      It would be totes ethical, too.

                    • The Murphey …
                      6 March 2015 at 4:39 pm

                      That was not the question

                      While you’re at it have a go at answering the question above as opposed to requesting an OIA

                      Q. Where is the evidence the of gold standard testing used in development of vaccines given and offered to pregnant women and children

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      6 March 2015 at 4:46 pm

                      Do your own homework.

                      That you are unable to find evidence is a consequence of your laziness. I’m looking at a Google scholar list of pre-licensure trials right now, and I have no doubt that linking to the relevant ones would not result in you thanking me. It would result in yet another arrogant demand for me to do your homework for you.

                      Do your own homework.

                    • The Murphey …
                      6 March 2015 at 4:54 pm

                      That was for McFlock

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      6 March 2015 at 4:58 pm

                      In that case, let me chop off your legs, homework bludger.

                      Start with the brand name of each vaccine and the phrase “pre-licensure” and enter it into Google scholar. Alternatively, check the WHO factsheet for each vaccine in the part where citations are listed.

                      Now your laziness has an even smaller excuse.

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      6 March 2015 at 5:02 pm

                      The question is not about whether there are trials or not. The issue is how many of those pre-licensure trials meet the gold standard?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      6 March 2015 at 5:04 pm

                      And the response is “do your own homework, homework bludger”.

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      6 March 2015 at 5:05 pm

                      Hey OAB, compulsory vaccination is a bad idea on several levels. Glad we arrived at common ground, at last.

                      I wonder if any of those pre-licensure trials is going to reduce the absolute rate of death for any of the participants by as much as 1 in 1,000. I’m guessing probably not.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      6 March 2015 at 5:08 pm

                      Your confidence gets stronger with every dilution.

                    • McFlock …
                      6 March 2015 at 5:18 pm

                      Actually CR, when the “gold standard” consists of three-phase trials processes, then the existence of such trials requires the existence of the gold standard.

                      And quite frankly, if muffrey is incapable of googling “rotateq clinical trial information” themselves (let alone actually doing an OIA to the people who used the phrase “gold standard” anyway), then muffrey is an idiot.

                      Because when I used that exact simple google phrase, in the first few docs there was the report submitted to the fda for approval. In paragraph 2 of the executive summary it even has the sentence “The Biologics Licensing Application (BLA) contains three phase 3 trials: study 006, the rotavirus efficacy and safety trial (REST), study 007 the end-expiry dose trial and study 009 the lot-consistency trial.”

                      So yeah, the testing went through phase three trials. All anyone has to do is do that search with the name of the vaccine they’re interested in, rather than demanding we do their fucking research for them less we then be accused of not being interested in rational discourse.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      6 March 2015 at 5:22 pm

                      Not just an idiot. A lazy homework-bludging idiot.

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      6 March 2015 at 5:29 pm

                      Your confidence gets stronger with every dilution.

                      I do love you materialists, you’re all so new fangled in your intrinsic belief in the power of matter.

                    • McFlock …
                      6 March 2015 at 5:30 pm

                      I wonder if any of those pre-licensure trials is going to reduce the absolute rate of death for any of the participants by as much as 1 in 1,000. I’m guessing probably not.

                      A mortality rate of about 1.6 per 100,000 for newborns, and a hospitalisation rate of 25 to 30 per thousand.

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      6 March 2015 at 5:35 pm

                      Yes, basically all FDA approved drugs go through phase III trials. Including the ones pulled post marketing for being unsafe.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      6 March 2015 at 5:37 pm

                      The power of matter can only be invoked by shaking. Not stirring.

                    • McFlock …
                      6 March 2015 at 5:45 pm

                      Yes, basically all FDA approved drugs go through phase III trials. Including the ones pulled post marketing for being unsafe.

                      Yes, Murphey’s inability to find evidence for the existence of such trials says more about his inability to use the internet than it does about whether such trials exist.

                      But of course the trials are good for filtering out ineffective and harmful treatments, even if not perfect. Which is why modern medecine is both safer and more effective than all forms of quackery.

                    • The Murphey …
                      6 March 2015 at 6:50 pm

                      Q. Why would you choose that particular oral vaccine ?

                    • McFlock …
                      6 March 2015 at 7:02 pm

                      edit:
                      why did I choose rotateq? Because it was the the first trade name I saw from the first google search I did that you should have done before wasting everyone’s time.

                      You can follow that process yourself for any other vaccination you want to jackoff about. Teach a pretentious idiot to fish, and all that.

                      /edit

                      Q. Why would you choose and oral vaccine ?

                      A1. because sometimes it’s nicer than fucking the vaccine
                      A2. because it’s better for the midochlorian balance
                      A3. because otherwise you walk funny
                      A4. because you obviously can’t use google.

                    • The Murphey …
                      6 March 2015 at 7:18 pm

                      So start again this time using intramuscular examples

                      With evidence of independence in the standards utilised

                    • McFlock …
                      7 March 2015 at 9:55 am

                      But I already showed you howyou can do it yourself.

                      Indeed, the process was so simple that if I did not think that you were a complete idiot, I would have been insulted by your demands that everyone else do your thinking for you.

                      So rather than shifting the goalpoasts, how about you demonstrate that you’ve at least learned how to confirm the existence of phase 3 trials for a vaccine of your choice? You can do it! Two or three simple google searches. Heck, pick an intramuscular vaccine for all I care. You remember how? google for the nz vaccine schedue, that list will gove you the brand names. Then google the brand name with something like “trials information” or whatever, and you can get the submission for fda approval off the fda website. It’s so simple that even you can manage it.

                    • The Murphey …
                      7 March 2015 at 11:28 am

                      The position I have expressed previously has never change nor will it

                      I am not for compulsory vaccination of any kind

                      There is no requirement for me prove corruption and fraud inside the corporate controlled industry processes and practice which many here conflate and confuse as being ‘the science’

                      That corruption fraud nepotism cronyism lobbying and profiteering exists is not debatable only the degree of damage and loss caused to human life and well being is

                      The onus is on those of you who need to believe ‘the science’ exists in a vacuum outside of the fraudulent and corrupt practices of the pharmaceutical and vaccine industry as it relates to this discussion

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      7 March 2015 at 1:27 pm

                      the degree of damage and loss caused to human life and well being

                      Can be seen every time herd immunity drops below acceptable levels.

                    • McFlock …
                      7 March 2015 at 1:40 pm

                      You wanted evidence that the “gold standard” clinical evaluation. The description of that evaluation that you, yourself, provided is shown to exist by the few seconds of googling I did for a random vaccine.

                      I showed you how to find that evidence for any specific vaccine you care to name.

                      Do you thank me for my patience? No. You shift the goalposts.

                      The lesson here is that your question about “gold standard” evaluation was irrelevant to your objection, and that you probably didn’t understand its meaning anyway.

                      If you want to allege fraud about a particular vaccine, feel free. At the moment the only vaccine-related fraud I’m aware of was some fraudulent reseach into one vaccine by a doctor with undisclosed financial conflicts of interest, but they caught the bastard and retracted the papers when no other study could repeat his results..

                    • The Murphey …
                      7 March 2015 at 1:48 pm

                      Continuing to cite Wakefield and calling me lazy

                      hypocrisy |hiˈpäkrisē|
                      noun ( pl. hypocrisies )
                      the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one’s own behavior does not conform; pretense

                      hypocrite |ˈhipəˌkrit|
                      noun
                      a person who indulges in hypocrisy.

                      Ex-cep-tion-al: Being an Exception

                    • McFlock …
                      7 March 2015 at 2:05 pm

                      Is that an acknowledgement that the demand you made for evidence of “gold standard” evaluation of vaccines, a demand I met and showed you how to replicate, a demand that we’ve all wasted a solid couple of dozen comments on, was completely irrelevant to the point you were trying to make?

                    • The Murphey …
                      7 March 2015 at 2:11 pm

                      Is that an acknowledgement that the demand you made for evidence of “gold standard” evaluation of vaccines, a demand I met and showed you how to replicate, a demand that we’ve all wasted a solid couple of dozen comments on, was completely irrelevant to the point you were trying to make?

                      No

                      There are no requirements prior to FDA approval and licensing that a vaccine must undergo independent study by researchers that have no financial interests and or industry ties in order to validate a vaccine maker’s claims

                      OAB managed to comprehend that comment

                      Q. Can you ?

                    • McFlock …
                      7 March 2015 at 2:19 pm

                      Your demand for information re:the “gold standard” is below.

                      Provide examples of where and how The Gold Standard has been proven to be followed in development of recent vaccinations as they relate to those used on children and pregnant women

                      Nowhere does it mention your requirement for whether the research involved “researchers that have no financial interests and or industry ties”. That was not even mentioned in the longer description of “gold standard” clinical evaluation.

                      So your demand for information was irrelevant to the point you are trying to make.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      7 March 2015 at 2:29 pm

                      Let’s make one thing absolutely clear: McFlock is walking all over Muffrey, who has utterly and completely failed to make a single valid or valuable observation since first stinking up the place.

                      Nothing but lazy worthless demands for plagiarised homework.

                    • The Murphey …
                      7 March 2015 at 2:34 pm

                      Goodness gracious

                      Nowhere does it mention your requirement for whether the research involved “researchers that have no financial interests and or industry ties”.

                      Given the comments and links I have posted the implication should be self evident

                      That you can only see one angle at a time has been self evident to me a long time

                      That was not even mentioned in the longer description of “gold standard” clinical evaluation.

                      Q. Why would it be ?

                      So your demand for information was irrelevant to the point you are trying to make.

                      That you only see one angle at a time does not make my point irrelevant

                      The causality between ‘the gold standard’ and failure in regulatory process and practice by the FDA should be self evident to even the dimmest of light bulbs

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      7 March 2015 at 2:41 pm

                      Did I mention boring?

                    • The Murphey …
                      7 March 2015 at 2:41 pm

                      desperate |ˈdespərit|
                      adjective
                      feeling, showing, or involving a hopeless sense that a situation is so bad as to be impossible to deal with

                      Let’s make one thing absolutely clear: McFlock is walking all over Muffrey, who has utterly and completely failed to make a single valid or valuable observation since first stinking up the place

                      Q. What is it with you all trying so damn hard ?

                      Q. Are you channeling DTB ?

                      Q. On the abortion issue – are you pro choice ?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      7 March 2015 at 2:43 pm

                      Flatulent, too.

                    • McFlock …
                      7 March 2015 at 5:27 pm

                      That you can only see one angle at a time has been self evident to me a long time

                      So now it suits you to be able to see things from different angles, and yet only a few weeks ago you insisted taking comments purely on their literal meaning because you had no “context” for any other meaning. 🙄

                      Let me be completely clear: your enquiry was not couched in terms of anything relevant to wider issues of scientific corruption. It was purely a demand for proof of a specific narrow fact. If the answer that satisfies your request does not satisfy your concerns, then you failed to express your concerns accurately. This is not my problem.

                      If you are looking for disclosures of conflicts of interest by medical researchers, perhaps you should use the resources I gave you as starting points for further google queries. When you find the published clinical trials, you’ll find any conflict declarations.

                      Go on, surely you’re capable of it. At a purely random guess, after less than 5 minutes of googling you’ll find something like “T.V. declares advisory board membership, consultation fees, and honoraria from Sanofi Pasteur MSD and advisory group memberships and lecture fees from Merck, GlaxoSmithKline Biologicals, Novartis, and MedImmune; A.K. declares no conflict of interest; R.B. declares advisory board membership at Novartis, Pfizer, GlaxoSmithKline Biologicals, Baxter Biosciences, and Alexion Pharmaceuticals; and N.K., M.B., S.T., and A.F. declare that they work for Sanofi Pasteur MSD, the company that commercializes the pentavalent rotavirus vaccine.

                      This study was sponsored by Sanofi Pasteur MSD.

                      The trial is registered on ClinicalTrials.gov: National Clinical Trials Identifier (NCT ID) NCT00443846.”

                      It really is incredibly easy to find.

                • Chooky …
                  6 March 2015 at 5:59 pm

                  to me the vaccination of pregnant women to provide supposed immunity for things like measles in their unborn children and babies , is quite shocking and dangerous ….whatever happened to natural immunity and passing this on to the baby?

                  it reminds me of the Catholic Church males wanting to take over the lives of women and children….say no more!

                  http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/22/anti-vaccine-mothers-explain-measles-backlash

                  http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/01/03/flu-shot-increase-flu.aspx

                  • Chooky …
                    6 March 2015 at 8:46 pm

                    …and didnt Nazi doctors experiment on women and children without the consent of women and children ?

                    http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/11/14/Expert-Pediatrician-Exposes-Vaccine-Myths.aspx

                  • Ergo Robertina …
                    7 March 2015 at 8:19 pm

                    Yes, the whooping cough vaccine take up among pregnant women was low, if I recall rightly below 20%.
                    I think most women sense a vaccine at that time is a bad idea, otherwise rates would be almost 100% as it’s when you focus on doing everything correctly.
                    But the idea women might feel and know something that medical science does not will of course be ridiculed by the usual braying idiots.
                    Re the Church, and what was until recently an overtly controlling and often abusive medical profession, we forget how far things have come, which is why growing threats of compulsion or prosecution over vaccine compliance are concerning.
                    Personally I don’t think we will go there. Other currents in health are pushing things further in a more positive patient-centred direction.

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      7 March 2015 at 8:25 pm

                      Turn off your feelings
                      Don’t listen to your intuition
                      Don’t listen to your body
                      Just listen to assumed authority

                    • KJT …
                      8 March 2015 at 12:07 pm

                      Don’t listen to any evidence. The ramblings of faith healers are to be taken as correct.

                    • Ergo Robertina …
                      9 March 2015 at 12:30 am

                      ”Faith healers” is your construct, nothing more, and has nothing to do with my comment.
                      A world of difference exists between your fantasy faith healers and the mothers who make a large proportion of the health care decisions in the world. Thankfully most no longer see doctors as infallible.

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      9 March 2015 at 1:15 am

                      But that’s just it KJT, I do want “evidence”. I want evidence that a given treatment is going to make a big positive difference to me in the environment that I am in now, in the life that I lead, for my current age and health circumstances. Not in Bangladesh, not in the NZ of half a century ago, not for an intravenous drug user with a falling over immune system, not for some theoretical outbreak scenario, but for me right here and right now.

                      And sorry mate, as far as I can see for most of the vaccinations out there in 2015, they will improve my likely life expectancy by literally about zero. Not even an extra week out of 80 years. I’d do a thousand times better simply taking an extra walk every day and getting some vitamin D.

                      So given that, please excuse me if I don’t rush out and pump my body full of hyper reactive immune stimulants because certain people have come to a faith that it is somehow the rational thing to do.

                    • KJT …
                      9 March 2015 at 4:26 pm

                      When did I say anything about mothers, or the infallibility of Doctors.

                      It is because individuals are fallible, and inclined to be subjective that we have the “scientific method” of objective evidence.

                      Observations of individuals have value as empirical evidence, but some things need huge sample sizes to find out the reality.
                      There is no such thing as “anecdotal evidence”.

                      The failures are when someone ignores science, for dogma. It is even worse when it is someone who is supposedly intelligent and well educated enough to know better.

                      To go back deliberately from centuries of the enlightenment to dark age superstition, as so many seem to want to do these days.

                    • McFlock …
                      9 March 2015 at 4:57 pm

                      I want evidence that a given treatment is going to make a big positive difference to me in the environment that I am in now, in the life that I lead, for my current age and health circumstances. Not in Bangladesh, not in the NZ of half a century ago, not for an intravenous drug user with a falling over immune system, not for some theoretical outbreak scenario, but for me right here and right now.

                      It’s not all about you, though, is it.

                      It’s also about the baby too young to be vaccinated, or the child with allergies, or the immune-compromised person on chemo. All of whom you deliberately endanger because of your choice to not vaccinate. It’s about the drain on the health system in an outbreak, both treating people who refused to vaccinate (and of course dealing with the rush of selfish fools whose personal danger threshold has finally been met). And how that drain affects the quality and availability of care for patients who are not the paranoid or self-absorbed authors of their own misfortune.

                      Even if your personal threat assessment were correct and didn’t rely on almost everyone else being less selfish than you, you’re nothing more than a freeloader or a scab. It’s alright for you, stuff everyone else, mate.

                    • Ergo Robertina …
                      9 March 2015 at 10:11 pm

                      @KJT, I think we were talking past each other because I had thought your first response had been to me, but it was for CV.
                      I agree there is no such thing as anecdotal evidence, as such, but place a lot of store on lived experience, stories, and case studies. And you acknowledge the place of empirical evidence except when large amounts of data are involved. That is a point often missed by people who love the nonsensical term ‘anecdata’ without giving any context.
                      Planning health service design, particularly in countries like NZ with far flung communities, clinical guidelines for health services (particularly sensitive ones), and managing multiple conditions are examples of areas in which a cookie cutter aggregate approach often doesn’t work.
                      I also think reported experience acts as early warning of problems with medicines, devices, and treatments. This is often dismissed by people in positions of power, a problem that’s not even acknowledged yet, let alone addressed.
                      There is also too little acknowledgement of the need to research areas in which trade-offs appear to have been unwittingly made, such as the rise of obesity and allergies being linked with the overuse of antibiotics.
                      It’s little wonder part of the public feels a bit disenchanted, and probably accounts for the seeming paradox that some of them are ”educated enough to know better”.

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      9 March 2015 at 10:31 pm

                      As I said, I am all for evidence. I want the empirical data. I am not dissing evidence. Objective, empirical evidence is crucial, I agree.

                      McFlock says that “it’s not about me”. Fair enough then. Let’s look wider. What is the life expectancy of a NZ baby who gets all his vaxx’s versus a NZ baby who gets none?

                      Is their life expectancy even a month different?

                      Death not the only endpoint you say? OK how about in terms of QALYs then? Where’s the much vaunted “evidence” there on how a NZ baby who gets all the vaxx’s does so much better than one who doesn’t?

                      QALYs too difficult? OK how about hospital stay days. How many fewer hospital stay days does a full vaxx’d child have in their first 18 years compared to a child who is not vaxx’d at all? Is there any measurable difference due to the vaccinations?

                      Still too difficult? How about time off work. A fully vaccinated adult – how many fewer days do they take off work a year on average than a totally unvaccinated adult. Is the number even a single day of sick leave?

                      Surely you have empirical evidence for these meaningful end points, right? Some of it right? Any of it?

                      Even if your personal threat assessment were correct and didn’t rely on almost everyone else being less selfish than you, you’re nothing more than a freeloader or a scab. It’s alright for you, stuff everyone else, mate.

                      Stop getting preachy and moralistic and show me the empirical evidence of actual clinical outcomes and end points benefit as per the above. For any individual NZ vaccination or group of vaccinations that you care to reference.

                      By the way, my position is not about “stuffing everyone else.” They are welcome to get all the injections into their body that they want and that they consent to.

                      I am not being dogmatic about this. If a situation arose with sufficient cause – I too would certainly get vaccinated; and have before in the past.

                    • McFlock …
                      9 March 2015 at 11:26 pm

                      CR, are you saying that you haven’t looked at the evidence before starting your campaign? I’m impressed by your evidence-based approach /sarc

                      HPV. For a start.
                      Lord save me from anti-vaxxers who claim to have been persuaded by evidence yet seem incapable of googling it themselves.

                      By the way, my position is not about “stuffing everyone else.” They are welcome to get all the injections into their body that they want and that they consent to.

                      Unless they can’t. In which case they can only rely on herd immunity, the herd immunity that you choose to weaken. But in the case of an outbreak, you might be able to run and get the jab in time. They can’t. So yeah, you are stuffing them because of your own freeloading.

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      9 March 2015 at 11:45 pm

                      How interesting, the study admits that prevention of genital wart is the main QALY benefit of that vaccination, not the prevention of cancer. That’s not how that vaccination was sold to parents, and not how it continues to be sold to parents.

                      I’d be interested in what that actual break down is.

                      I’m also impressed that getting the vaccination can add 266 QALYs to someone’s lifespan. That’s darn impressive.

                      Unless they can’t. In which case they can only rely on herd immunity, the herd immunity that you choose to weaken. But in the case of an outbreak, you might be able to run and get the jab in time. They can’t. So yeah, you are stuffing them because of your own freeloading.

                      Freeloading? You’re making a big mistake as to who is taking our freedoms for granted, sir.

                      I’m healthier in general without vaccinations, so the dude without a spleen will do just fine around me, thanks. Although using your rationale, I hope his weakened immune system doesn’t spread stuff around. Perhaps you should propose that they live in oxygen tents kept well away from the rest of society.

                    • McFlock …
                      9 March 2015 at 11:56 pm

                      I’m also impressed that getting the vaccination can add 266 QALYs to someone’s lifespan. That’s darn impressive.
                      Ah. I understand now. You try to make evidence-based decisions, but you’re illiterate as well as selfish. Hopefully nobody believes you’re a doctor, eh.

                      I’m healthier in general without vaccinations,

                      You have evidence for that, eh? Why didn’t you cite that, rather than having me do your homework for you?

                      Although using your rationale, I hope his weakened immune system doesn’t spread stuff around.

                      You might want to get vaccinated, just to be safe…

                      Edit: yes, freeloading. Your freedom is just like a scab working during a strike, or a non-union member getting the same deal as the collective earned by union bargaining.

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      10 March 2015 at 12:02 am

                      So explain it to me – if a school girl takes that jab, she doesn’t get 266 QALYs added to her life?

                      Who does, then?

                      edit:

                      Edit: yes, freeloading. Your freedom is just like a scab working during a strike, or a non-union member getting the same deal as the collective earned by union bargaining.

                      So you see yourself as the union boss whipping workers into line?

                    • McFlock …
                      10 March 2015 at 12:26 am

                      So explain it to me – if a school girl takes that jab, she doesn’t get 266 QALYs added to her life?

                      Who does, then?

                      Damn, you’ve exposed the real scientificism fraud! All the doctors go into a secret chapel and sacrifice the qalys to the CEOs of Big Pharma, but don’t tell anyone.
                      🙄

                      I’m not a union “boss” (you’re really going full tory, now, eh). But you remind me a bit about an ACT on campus guy I encountered back in the 1990s who was proud of his claim that Richard Prebble’s “I’ve Been Thinking” was the only book he’d ever read cover to cover. I was having difficulty figuring out whether he really was that stupid, or he was only moderately delusional while craftily feigning what he thought was moderate idiocy. Same deal with you.

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      10 March 2015 at 12:30 am

                      So if those additional 266 QALYs mentioned in the computer simulation/modelling projection report you linked to don’t all go to a single school girl getting the vaccination, does it then mean that the QALYs are shared amongst a larger group of school girls getting the vaccination?

                    • McFlock …
                      10 March 2015 at 12:50 am

                      lol

                      You’re the dude who brought up QALYs. Surely you weren’t just repeating magic words you didn’t understand.
                      Keep going, this is fun.

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      10 March 2015 at 1:11 am

                      So how many school girls would you say that 266 QALY figure is shared between? 40,000? 50,000?

                    • McFlock …
                      10 March 2015 at 1:35 am

                      Don’t ask me how to use the criteria you demanded I supply. You claim to look at evidence. So follow the evidence.

                    • northshoredoc …
                      10 March 2015 at 8:41 am

                      Newer vaccines are not just made available and put on the NZ vaccination schedule but go through a fairly stringent process of consideration by the likes of PHARMAC.

                      e.g.

                      https://www.pharmac.health.nz/assets/ptac-minutes-2013-08.pdf

                      I’m beginning to find it concerning that someone who is registered with the NZ chiropractic board continues to provide opinions and advice well outside his mandated scope of practice.

                    • McFlock …
                      10 March 2015 at 10:35 am

                      But he was just about to show us how the Lords of Sciencism decide who “gets” the the 266 QALYs…

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      10 March 2015 at 11:20 am

                      I’m beginning to find it concerning that someone who is registered with the NZ chiropractic board continues to provide opinions and advice well outside his mandated scope of practice.

                      I’m providing a critical point of view highlighting many historical problems with vaccines and supporting the case for the status quo – no compulsory vaccination. Why do you see that as a problem? Do you think that the public discussion would be better left to a very small section of society from within the medical establishment?

                      BTW I’ve openly publicised very similar points around Dunedin, in the local papers and made them to people at Otago medical school. So I stand by my perspectives.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      10 March 2015 at 11:26 am

                      Yay for the debate! Teach the controversy! The science isn’t settled, you know 🙄

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      10 March 2015 at 11:39 am

                      But he was just about to show us how the Lords of Sciencism decide who “gets” the the 266 QALYs…

                      McFlock – the computer modelling report you linked to shows that the benefit to 40,000 or 50,000 school girls being vaccinated against HPV every year is 266 QALYs, yes?

                      I mean, you kindly found and linked to the report yourself.

                      Is there now some difficulty with these numbers which means that you don’t wish to acknowledge what the report says?

                    • McFlock …
                      10 March 2015 at 11:57 am

                      lol, nope.

                      You made up the 40k/50k numbers.

                      Try again.

                    • Northshoredoc …
                      10 March 2015 at 12:18 pm

                      @CV

                      “I’m providing a critical point of view highlighting many historical problems with vaccines and supporting the case for the status quo – no compulsory vaccination. Why do you see that as a problem? Do you think that the public discussion would be better left to a very small section of society from within the medical establishment?

                      BTW I’ve openly publicised very similar points around Dunedin, in the local papers and made them to people at Otago medical school. So I stand by my perspectives.”

                      If all you are doing is arguing for the status quo – no compulsory vaccination i believe you are wasting your time as the persons you are arguing with are also for non compulsion.

                      In reality what you are doing is spreading thinly veiled anti vaccination propaganda this is what you have done numerous times on this website over the last couple of years. Once again I would point you towards your own bodies code on the scope of chiropractic practice and not make claims to have any special knowledge in the area of immunisation over and above those who are specifically qualified in that area.

                      Certainly some of the commentary you have provided to papers is misinformed drivel

                      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/meningococcal/news/article.cfm?c_id=256&objectid=3580696

                      And you appearances on other blogs is …shall we say ….. interesting

                      http://sciblogs.co.nz/code-for-life/2013/10/31/poking-needles-in-childs-tongue-unlikely-to-bring-back-missing-dna/

                      https://evidencebasedthought.wordpress.com/2008/08/11/nz-chiropractors-vs-nz-medical-journal/

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      10 March 2015 at 12:21 pm

                      OK you’d like firmer numbers McFlock? Fair enough.

                      Est 28,500 girls born in NZ last year, so McFlock (out of 57,242 live births), the numbers are in the right ball park.

                      So 28,500 girls (approx) have to be vaccinated to gain 266 QALYs.

                      Oh my, that’s an advantage of roughly 0.0093 QALYs per girl vacinated. Or just 3.4 quality adjusted life days advantage on average for a vaccinated person compared to a non-vaccinated person, over a typical 80 year lifespan.

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      10 March 2015 at 12:32 pm

                      Once again I would point you towards your own bodies code on the scope of chiropractic practice and not make claims to have any special knowledge in the area of immunisation over and above those who are specifically qualified in that area.

                      Do you really think that people should be kept in the dark or that only a narrow section of society should have a valid say.

                      People should know that their kids cannot be excluded from enrolling at school because they have not been vaccinated, they should know that a third of medical doctors refuse to take up the flu jab even though it is offered to them for free, they should know that as in the case of the MMR vaccination in the UK in 1992 and more recently the MeNZB vaccination in NZ important facts known to researchers and decision makers about those vaccinations were not communicated to parents in a timely way.

                      You may not think that people should know these things, that these facts are inconvenient to acknowledge, or you may think that they somehow comprise “special knowledge” that people like myself should be sanctioned for referring to, or you believe that “informed consent” doesn’t require a full discussion from all sides, but of course, I disagree.

                      In reality what you are doing is spreading thinly veiled anti vaccination propaganda

                      No, I pretty much stick the facts, but I will sometimes use values and priorities which may not be yours or may not be the conventional medical establishment’s, to interpret them differently.

                    • McFlock …
                      10 March 2015 at 1:50 pm

                      est? Lovely. You’re still making it up.

                      There is everything in the document that will lead you to the actual numbers used. This is how sciencing works. You can go and check their figures.

                      Once you supply the actual denominator used in the document I referenced, I will then tell you why you fucked up with your “Oh my, that’s an advantage of roughly 0.0093 QALYs per girl vacinated” idiocy.

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      10 March 2015 at 2:13 pm

                      I didn’t factor in the vaccination penetration rate, right?

                      Doesn’t really matter though, I was only after an answer which was in the correct order of magnitude, and I have it now: on average, a few days of benefit over a typical lifespan, and mostly from a reduction in genital warts not from a reduction in cancer.

                    • McFlock …
                      10 March 2015 at 3:33 pm

                      No, CR, you’re still adding your own data to the published document. You don’t need to. Use their data.

                      However, given that you’re obviously illiterate and can’t review or repeat the analyses you’re going off 1/4-cocked about, and you obviously don’t care what the actual evidence is, I will describe your abuse of the QALY abstraction.

                      You’re applying a population average to individuals and assuming that it is their individual net benefit. You wouldn’t do that with a change in the average real wage, would you? Maybe we should just say that it’s 3 or 4 randomly-chosen 12y.o. girls dropping dead every year in an unvaccinated cohort, saved by 100% vaccination. By your math, that would also equal 266 QALYs. How many random 12y.o. girls are you happy to see drop dead every year before people should prevent it? 5? 10? 500?

                      For someone so critical of the scientific method, you certainly can’t practise it.

                      BTW, I won 500 QALYs playing poker with the Lords of Sciencism last night. I’m gonna use them to reanimate Jenner.

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      10 March 2015 at 4:26 pm

                      Oh yes, I understand the statistical abstraction.

                      But I think I made my point. Tens of thousands of people vaccinated every year for a (very) slight population benefit – assuming the vaccination keeps working as intended.

                      Just note that your example of how many people I want dropping dead out of the 266 QALYs is misguided as the majority of that benefit is due to a reduction in genital warts not cancer, and people don’t drop dead of genital warts.

                      In fact, parents should probably be told that the major assessed benefit of the vaccination is vs genital warts, not from preventing cancer as they have been led to believe.

                    • McFlock …
                      10 March 2015 at 4:52 pm

                      But, as you illurstrated, the less benefit accrued by individuals means the greater number of individuals get a direct benefit. So “Tens of thousands” (you’ve still not managed to read the evidence rather than guessing, eh – great evidence-based opinion you have) of unvaccinated people getting warts would be much more significant than the bare minimum three days.

                      And, of course, cancer in later years is still the one people really would want to avoid (as well as warts), and contributes to the QALY. The population benefit is slight. The personal benefit to some individuals is extreme. The personal benefit to others is slight. But the problem is that there is no way of picking which individual will avoid cancer when she is 30, and which individual will never even be exposed to HPV in the first place. But telling everyone that there is “(very) slight” is an outright lie to the woman who will get cancer at 30, and an unverifiable truth to the woman who will never be exposed to HPV.

                      So, to sum up, you don’t understand the criteria you explicitly demanded, your “evidence base” involves blind guesswork rather than actually looking at the evidence, and you think that the most common complication must be the most serious thing people need to be advised of, and your idea of shedding light on the issue is to lie to people whose lives it would otherwise save well before most other people will face mortality.

                      You’re not just patently out of your depth, you’re dragging other people under as well, “doctor”.

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      10 March 2015 at 5:57 pm

                      McFlock, you win, I don’t have a biostatistics degree, I don’t have university library access to academic papers.

                      You think a 266 QALY benefit from vaccinating tens of thousands of people and spending millions of dollars is a good deal, and that is assuming the vaccination behaves as predicted over the next 20-30 years of which there is no evidence, you approve it for your own daughters so they can pick up an average of 3 quality adjusted life days then.

                      A lot of parents don’t and a lot of parents aren’t.

                    • McFlock …
                      10 March 2015 at 6:17 pm

                      I don’t have a biostats degree either, and you can go to your local uni library if you really wanted to. So poor excuses for ignorance there.

                      I note that your admitted ignorance doesn’t stop you from maintaining your firm (if baseless) convictions.

                      BTW, I first encountered QALYs studying philosphy years ago. Ran into them in a few other places. Don’t use ’em with my current hat, though. In most disciplines I’ve encountered them they’ve been fairly self-explanatory to those people who don’t want them to push barrows. Follow the evidence, don’t lead it.

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      10 March 2015 at 6:22 pm

                      McFlock, like I said you win, you think the vaccination has major benefits go for it. Go get it yourself even, it’ll only set you back a couple of hundred bucks.

                    • TheContrarian …
                      10 March 2015 at 6:25 pm

                      As I said, I am all for evidence. I want the empirical data. I am not dissing evidence. Objective, empirical evidence is crucial, I agree.

                      Says the guy stumping for homeopathy

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      10 March 2015 at 6:29 pm

                      Where did I stump for homeopathy?

                    • TheContrarian …
                      10 March 2015 at 6:30 pm

                      If you were really interested in empirical research and data you wouldn’t be promoting homeopathy – because it has no validity whatsoever. So you can stop pretending

                    • TheContrarian …
                      10 March 2015 at 6:34 pm

                      Oh so you agree homeopathy has no objective or empirical evidence to back it up

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      10 March 2015 at 6:38 pm

                      My bet is that homeopathy will last on long after conventional orthodox medicine winds down with the end of the fossil fuel age.

                    • McFlock …
                      10 March 2015 at 6:40 pm

                      Actually, I do try to ensure I’m fully vaccinated according to MoH guidelines.

                      Because it’s a duty for others, as well as maybe having a direct benefit for me. My drinking and diet rest on my shoulders, but I try to ensure they don’t endanger others. But for very little effort, I can make a lifestyle choice to help protect others rather than endanger them by freeloading behind a successful immunisation program.

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      10 March 2015 at 6:42 pm

                      well good on you McFlock, you take the moral high road, let me know when you take the HPV vaccination too, apparently it’s good for men too, just a bit too expensive is the only issue now, according to officials.

                      I won’t be introducing those immune altering chemicals into my body though.

                    • TheContrarian …
                      10 March 2015 at 6:43 pm

                      No one is asking how long it will last. What is being asked is whether you think homeopathy has objective or empirical evidence to back it up.

                    • McFlock …
                      10 March 2015 at 6:54 pm

                      Indeed it is good for males, too, and financial restrictions to healthcare are still sadly an issue in NZ – but I don’t think I will share with you the specifics of all of my medical records. It’s not like you’d understand them anyway.

                      Suffice to say I do try to take all evidence-based measures to minimise my participation in the transmission of communicable disease. Unlike you, freeloader.

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      10 March 2015 at 6:55 pm

                      Conventional medicine fails a lot of people and they will go elsewhere. It’s not brain surgery.

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      10 March 2015 at 6:56 pm

                      Well let me know when you decide to put your money where your mouth, and your sense of duty is, McFlock, scientism acolyte. It’s only a couple of hundred dollars and apparently the evidence is all for it.

                      BTW re: your medical records eeeew thanks but no thanks. That was not my idea.

                    • TheContrarian …
                      10 March 2015 at 7:00 pm

                      No one is asking you about where people go for treatment. What is being asked is whether you think homeopathy has objective or empirical evidence to back it up.

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      10 March 2015 at 7:01 pm

                      If homeopathy works for a person and they like what it does for them, then they should stick with it. It’s pretty simple.

                    • TheContrarian …
                      10 March 2015 at 7:05 pm

                      No one is asking about what someone may or not believe works for them. What is being asked is whether you think homeopathy has objective or empirical evidence to back it up.

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      10 March 2015 at 7:28 pm

                      Today, I don’t give a damn.

                    • TheContrarian …
                      10 March 2015 at 7:32 pm

                      So you can stop all this bullshit concerning caring for empirical evidence, objective, empirical evidence. Because you don’t. If you did you’d show it but you know you can’t.

                      Because homeopathy is 100% pure grade bullshit and you can’t show dick in objective, empirical evidence to support it so don’t pretend you give a shit about evidence.

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      10 March 2015 at 7:36 pm

                      I hope that was good for you, you were really bottling that up for a long time.

                    • TheContrarian …
                      10 March 2015 at 7:45 pm

                      It was good, because it shows how disingenuous you were throughout this entire thread. Pretending to care about empirical evidence that everyone must show to you and prove to your satisfaction when defending their positions but having no intention of holding yourself to same regard when defending your own.

                      You have no intellectual authority whatsoever when it comes to any debate on the merits of science or medicine because you completely fail to live up to the rigorous demands of evidence you apply to everyone else when trying to defend your own positions.

                      You obfuscate, hold double standards and fail, refuse, to back up your own arguments.

                      So yes, it was good. You’re a charlatan and every time you open your mouth to ask others for evidence of their positions this discussion can be pointed to, to show just how little you actually care for evidence. You are in no position to ask any one to ever back up any claim they make.

                      Thank you, kind sir.

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      10 March 2015 at 8:05 pm

                      As I figured, your cheap goading was all about your need for a sensation of intellectual, and moralistic superiority. You don’t know me from a bar of soap and I have no intention of living up to your pretences. Fuck off.

                    • TheContrarian …
                      10 March 2015 at 8:08 pm

                      Hey, don’t get mad at me – Cheap goading? You’re the one who is all about empirical, objective evidence. That you can’t show to support your own notions is no fault of mine.

                    • McFlock …
                      10 March 2015 at 8:42 pm

                      Conventional medicine fails a lot of people and they will go elsewhere. It’s not brain surgery.

                      Indeed. The tragedy is Steve Jobs syndrome, where conventional medicine would very likely save a life but the patient listens to fools like you until it’s too late.

                      And I do put my money where my mouth is. That’s why I go to conventional doctors who have an evidence base for their treatments.

            • Molly 6.2.2.2.2.3
              7 March 2015 at 10:50 am

              +100

          • The Murphey 6.2.2.2.3
            6 March 2015 at 3:12 pm

            The gold standard is the quintessential fallacy which exists at the epicentre of the vaccine industry

            The logical question will be seldom asked and impossible to qualify without exposing the fallacy

            • One Anonymous Bloke 6.2.2.2.3.1
              6 March 2015 at 3:17 pm

              Strive to use the best data and methods available. Yeah, that’s definitely a mistake.

              • The Murphey …
                6 March 2015 at 7:13 pm

                The mistake is there are no requirements prior to FDA approval and licensing that a vaccine must undergo independent study by researchers that have no financial interests and or industry ties in order to validate a vaccine maker’s claims

                Yes that is a mistake

                • One Anonymous Bloke …
                  7 March 2015 at 1:21 pm

                  One again, you have demonstrated what everybody here already knows: politics is a problem.

                  What would we do without you? Not your homework, that’s for sure.

      • weka 6.2.3
        6 March 2015 at 10:12 am

        @northshoredoc,thanks for the clear explanation sans vitriol and ridicule 🙂 I think it makes for a much better discussion.

        • northshoredoc 6.2.3.1
          6 March 2015 at 10:17 am

          No problem Weka.

          Although in truth it’s all readily available on the MoH, CDC and WHO websites… I don’t know why people rely on the likes of CV and his sock puppets rather than just going straight to the most authoritative information sites.

          • TheContrarian 6.2.3.1.1
            6 March 2015 at 10:27 am

            Because the MoH, CDC and WHO are all back by big pharma/the IMF/the Rothschilds/Lizard people

            Blogs written in caps and daytime TV are far more authoritative.

          • weka 6.2.3.1.2
            6 March 2015 at 10:37 am

            “Although in truth it’s all readily available on the MoH, CDC and WHO websites… I don’t know why people rely on the likes of CV and his sock puppets rather than just going straight to the most authoritative information sites.”

            Two reasons from my perspective. One is that those organisations aren’t infallible (no organisation is). Which leads to the world view/ideology issue. For those of us for whom medical mistakes are not insignificant, trust is a big issue. I tend to sit somewhere between say you and CV in terms of approach, but I definitely don’t trust information from MoH, CDC, WHO just because they say it. I want to look at it and be able to think about it and discuss it with a critical eye.

            What I appreciated about your comment is that it was free of the polarisation stuff, and I just got to read some facts. There might be some discussion that comes from that eg I might take issue with your statement that the inactivated vaccine can’t cause illness. I suspect what you meant is that it can’t cause polio, but whether it can cause adverse effects otherwise and to what extent those adverse effects are an issue is a problem for discussion. However it’s unlikely we will get to talk about those things because of the polarisation (and the vitriol/ridicule).

            • northshoredoc 6.2.3.1.2.1
              6 March 2015 at 10:45 am

              “What I appreciated about your comment is that it was free of the polarisation stuff, and I just got to read some facts.”

              ” I want to look at it and be able to think about it and discuss it with a critical eye.”

              Yes fair enough but you need to understand where those facts come from and the body of evidence that backs them up. Others also post things which they would suggest are “facts” but have little that backs up their position.

              I agree that conversations are best without vitriol but would humbly suggest that if that’s what your after this site might not be the best option.

              • weka …
                6 March 2015 at 10:50 am

                lolz, that’s true. But we do have some good debates here that aren’t total clusterfucks, so I’m always hopeful.

                To be honest, I’m not paying much attention to the outgoing links, nor reading Murphey’s content much. Or even CV’s where it’s talking too much detail. I have my own views on vaccination, and am more interested in the ethics rather than endless arguments over the science.

                • northshoredoc …
                  6 March 2015 at 10:53 am

                  As far as ethics go I don’t think things will change much in our lifetimes with vaccination, can’t see it changing from a voluntary choice…albeit heavily endorsed by the medical profession and government.

                  • McFlock …
                    6 March 2015 at 3:26 pm

                    I think there might be scope for non-vaccinating parents to be prosecuted for endangerment if their kid gets the disease.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      6 March 2015 at 3:34 pm

                      That would certainly be better than other parents taking the law into their own hands.

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      6 March 2015 at 5:37 pm

                      Oh yes come on lefties, it was only so long before you threatened a toxic mix of mob rule and taking away the rights of parents to raise children in favour of nanny state knows best.

                      Of course, the parents that McFlock would most likely target in court would usually be from poorer households with higher illness rates, lower rates of medical care and inability to get legal representation.

                      Everybody, I introduce to you our modern day “left.”

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      6 March 2015 at 5:41 pm

                      Crimes Act 1961, s. 48.

                      Q. Will it be a bourgeois fuckwit with too much time on their hands that puts childrens’ lives at risk with their callous doubt-merchant incompetence?

                    • marty mars …
                      6 March 2015 at 5:47 pm

                      same with smoking and drinking parents eh and those who do that near children – don’t want non-parents to miss out do we. Who else can we prosecute, who else are endangering their and others children – sugar eaters, coffee drinkers yeah lets get them all /sarc in case you aren’t sure

                    • McFlock …
                      6 March 2015 at 5:56 pm

                      Of course, the parents that McFlock would most likely target in court would usually be from poorer households with higher illness rates, lower rates of medical care and inability to get legal representation.

                      Not really, because access to medical care is an issue often beyond control of the poor. But the remuera crowd who took jimmy to the homeopath at the slightest sniffle and refused a vaccine because of what jenny mccarthy said would definitely have some legal problems.

                    • McFlock …
                      6 March 2015 at 5:58 pm

                      OAB, I thought s48 was self defense? I think there’s another one “failure to provide necessities of life”

                    • McFlock …
                      6 March 2015 at 6:05 pm

                      same with smoking and drinking parents eh and those who do that near children – don’t want non-parents to miss out do we. Who else can we prosecute, who else are endangering their and others children – sugar eaters, coffee drinkers yeah lets get them all /sarc in case you aren’t sure

                      Actually, I think the failure to provide necessities and the negligence laws do not proscribe specific acts so much as leaving it to a case-by-case basis, where the harm/negligence can be demonstrated and the act can be defended (i.e. balancing risks, act not really harmful, factors beyond parental control, etc).

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      6 March 2015 at 6:07 pm

                      For example, the bourgeois fuckwit with too much time on their hands might have access to the internet, and use it to spread their callous dogma. S.48 would be a good defence against prosecution for a denial of service attack upon them.

                      They might seek to walk the streets spreading their vile drivel, so s.48 would be a good defence against prosecution for nailing all their doors and windows shut.

                      Render them silent in any reasonable way: S.48 is there for you. Might pay to seek legal advice first 🙂

                    • marty mars …
                      6 March 2015 at 6:10 pm

                      do you think a non-parent smoker should or could be prosecuted for smoking around someone elses child? Assuming the stats on passive smoking and so forth are correct. That is endangerment isn’t it.

                    • McFlock …
                      6 March 2015 at 6:15 pm

                      Ok, so what are the risks of one cigarette within 5m, on the street? And the connectability of the specific harm to the smoking event?

                      vs a non-vaccinated child getting measles?

                      edit: seeing as ASH ads are already trying to head society that way, anyway

                    • marty mars …
                      6 March 2015 at 6:19 pm

                      to be safe let’s prosecute both, after all it is childrens lives we are concerned about isn’t it

                    • McFlock …
                      6 March 2015 at 6:28 pm

                      I like your zeal for child safety, but I fear that the practical threshholds of decisions to prosecute (such as likelihood of conviction and a prima facie case of harm or negligence) require at least a nodding acquaintance with the relative risk of each case, as well as the comparative risk of any avoiding behaviour (like the risk of violence or stress-related harm from asking an addict to put it out, or the risks of the vaccine itself).

                    • marty mars …
                      6 March 2015 at 6:36 pm

                      yes relative risk can fuck us all up

                    • McFlock …
                      6 March 2015 at 6:41 pm

                      Not so much if we assess the risks accurately, though.

                    • marty mars …
                      6 March 2015 at 6:57 pm

                      “assess the risks accurately”

                      tricky that one – even if it could be done, humans still make choices based on their perception of their relative risk

                    • McFlock …
                      6 March 2015 at 7:09 pm

                      And where those errors are obviously reasonable, there is no prima facie case of negligence.

                    • marty mars …
                      6 March 2015 at 7:24 pm

                      “obviously reasonable”

                      another one that is problematic imo

                    • McFlock …
                      7 March 2015 at 10:01 am

                      easily clarified in court, then

                    • marty mars …
                      7 March 2015 at 10:16 am

                      lol yeah easy peasy

                    • McFlock …
                      7 March 2015 at 10:29 am

                      one or two cases in the gray area you are concerned about would set the threshhold.
                      Just as already happens.

            • Molly 6.2.3.1.2.2
              7 March 2015 at 10:42 am

              +100

  7. marty mars 7
    6 March 2015 at 9:43 am

    the oceans have given there all but there all is just about over…

    So at some point in the near future, the PDO will switch from its current negative phase back to positive, reducing the capacity of the oceans to accumulate heat from the atmosphere.

    That positive phase of the PDO will therefore see a rapid rise in global surface air temperatures, as the oceans’ capacity to absorb all those Hiroshima bomb equivalents declines – and leaves it to accumulate in our skies. In other words, after years of slower-than-expected warming, we may suddenly feel the heat.

    So when will that happen? No one knows for sure, but at the end of last year, signs emerged that the phase shift to a positive PDO could be happening right now…

    …Scientists from the UK Met Office’s Hadley Center led by Dr. Chris Roberts of the Oceans and Cryosphere Group estimate in a new paper in Nature that there is an 85% chance the faux ‘pause’ will end in the next five years, followed by a burst of warming likely to consist of a decade or so of warm ocean oscillations.

    http://www.theecologist.org/News/news_analysis/2777808/coming_soon_the_big_heat.html

    • Murray Rawshark 7.1
      7 March 2015 at 8:54 pm

      This Brisbane summer has been way too hot for me. If it gets worse, I think I might just come back home a bit earlier than planned. Funnily enough, I am in the 1% on income figures, but not on a wealth basis. Another 1% fleeing to Aotearoa?

  8. mary_a 8
    6 March 2015 at 9:51 am

    Pleased TS is up and running again.

    The old cynic in me suspected a deliberate take-down, considering recent revelations re NZ spying game in the south pacific. Nothing would surprise me with this corrupt Natsy mob.

  9. joe90 9
    6 March 2015 at 10:03 am

    Matses as a fourth official language – exclusive to and compulsory for parliament and parliamentarians.

    Linguist David Fleck, at Rice University, wrote his doctoral thesis on the grammar of Matses. He says that what distinguishes Matses from other languages that require speakers to give evidence for what they are saying is that Matses has one set of verb endings for the source of the knowledge and another, separate way of conveying how true, or valid the information is, and how certain they are about it. Interestingly, there is no way of denoting that a piece of information is hearsay, myth, or history. Instead, speakers impart this kind of information as a quote, or else as being information that was inferred within the recent past.

    http://nautil.us/blog/5-languages-that-could-change-the-way-you-see-the-world

    • alwyn 9.1
      6 March 2015 at 10:26 am

      Not a chance.
      Gareth Hughes, assuming he makes it into the male leader’s role in the Green Party, is going to demand as the price of Green Party support to form a Government, that Klingon must become an official language in New Zealand.
      That is going to be the fourth official language.

      • Clemgeopin 9.1.1
        6 March 2015 at 11:23 am

        In my opinion, the Greens should concentrate on environmental issues only and make themselves appealing, both in policies and personalities, for the National supporters to want to vote for them. For that reason, Julie Anne Genter and James Shaw will be their best bet as leaders.

        • KJT 9.1.1.1
          7 March 2015 at 10:48 am

          Why don’t the Greens just lie about what they are going to do when in “power” then do what they like once they get in.

          Seems to work fine for National.

        • KJT 9.1.1.2
          7 March 2015 at 10:53 am

          Because being too like National has worked so well for Labour?

          • Clemgeopin 9.1.1.2.1
            7 March 2015 at 4:34 pm

            Being centre will work for them better and will make the Greens powerful, relevant and more importantly will enable them to ACHIEVE something REALLY worthwhile, rather than as of now, more talk and less action. But hey, no problem for me. Let them do ‘whateva’ the ideas of their brains tell them. But, I do agree with my comment. Their heart is in the right place, but head, not so much, I opine.

        • Murray Rawshark 9.1.1.3
          7 March 2015 at 8:57 pm

          The problem with that is that most Greens have a strong social conscience which prevents them from leaving everything but the environment to NAct. Actually, given the penetration of capitalist relations of production into so many spheres of our lives, I doubt that separating out the environment is even possible. After all, NAct don’t want to mine the Denniston Plateau because they hate kiwis and snails. They just put making their mates rich first.

          • Colonial Rawshark 9.1.1.3.1
            7 March 2015 at 9:01 pm

            given the penetration of capitalist relations of production into so many spheres of our lives

            Also the commodification of all aspects of workers, human life and human relationships (including those with the environment).

            • Murray Rawshark 9.1.1.3.1.1
              7 March 2015 at 9:24 pm

              I consider that the same thing. I blame capitalism for everything 🙂

  10. Penny Bright 10
    6 March 2015 at 10:11 am

    Ok folks – now the first Northland poll has come out – showing that indeed Winston Peters has ‘hit the ground running’ – are all so-called ‘lefties’ going to use their brains and ‘do an Epsom’?

    As this John Key led National Government is SURELY the ‘main enemy’ – then why on earth would every possible person NOT vote strategically for Winston Peters, in order to take Northland off National?

    In my considered opinion, Labour Party supporters should not ‘waste their vote’ on Labour’s Willow-Jean Prime.

    I look forward to history being created on a number of fronts with this Northland by-election, where hopefully the so-called ‘left’ will (at last) ‘get’ strategic voting under MMP?

    PS: If you listen NOW to Radio Live – you will hear – of all people Sean Plunket – promoting Winston Peters as the candidate who will best provide ‘strong advocacy’ for the people of Northland.

    That by voting Winston Peters you will weaken this National Government.

    That Sean Plunket can’t believe he’s saying this – but he is.

    Penny Bright

    Backing the WINNER – Winston Peters for Northland

    • Chooky 10.1
      6 March 2015 at 11:06 am

      +100 Penny…”by voting Winston Peters you will weaken this National Government”.

      • KJT 10.1.1
        7 March 2015 at 10:52 am

        No. Labour will just patiently wait their turn, in 2017,as being “in power” as the Labour party is more important than putting the brakes on National’s destruction and vandalism.

  12. greywarshark 12
    6 March 2015 at 10:12 am

    I have heard that one of the reasons that so many tourists are on the road is that our tourist department is running a program encouraging that. I think it is time to cut that completely, as the more we get, the more accidents and the worse propaganda, and also the more of us who will be injured or die and the amount of negativity towards tourists will grow. It is not a win-win situation and the tourism department and yek need to give a sigh, say I think we have achieved a rise in tourism with this but have reached saturation in this market, and now we must find another line.

    Someone emailing Radionz said that many rental companies in the USA refuse to hire out a car to a newly arrived tourist – they have to wait for 24 hours.

    Another writer said that NZs reaction to the tourists faults seems to have resulted in them driving a little more self-righteously and perhaps more assertively rather than adjusting their own driving for caution and safety.

    • weka 12.1
      6 March 2015 at 10:58 am

      The tourism industry has its sights set on far more money to be made, they’re not considering a cap or limit and consider the natural limits to still be a long way off. The big players are motivated by the same things as the dairy kings. It’s all about extraction and profit and fuck the rest of the world. National are willing to support this, because the big players are part of their class, and will just keep on letting tourism do what it wants as long as it works within the neoliberal market ideology.

  13. Penny Bright 13
    6 March 2015 at 10:25 am

    Crikey!

    Managed to say a lot of the above on Sean Plunket’s show!

    (Have been blocked from his show – but was allowed on this morning 🙂

    Good.

    Penny Bright

  14. Philip Ferguson 14
    6 March 2015 at 10:40 am

    Junior Hunt, a 20-year-old recycling truck driver critically injured by the machine he was operating, has died.

    In an awful accident that need not have happened.

    The worker, caught in the mechanism of an EnviroWaste recycling truck in Thorndon, Wellington was found unconscious but still alive by a member of the public. There was some delay before anyone could be found who knew how to release the machinery and free the trapped injured man.

    “We are devastated by this tragedy,” EnviroWaste chief executive Gary Saunders said. Mr Saunders added that family and staff had been offered counselling and other support as they began to work through their grief.

    “We will endeavour to understand how and why this accident happened – this is our commitment to Junior’s memory and his family.”

    He said the company would continue to work with authorities as investigations into the circumstances of the accident were carried out over the coming weeks.

    This model of EnviroWaste truck has been a familiar sight in our street for a couple of years.

    I have always hated the sight of it.

    The truck model is a single-operating one. The machine is designed so that the. . .

    full at: https://rdln.wordpress.com/2015/03/05/a-mate-for-solidarity/

    Phil

    • Rosie 14.1
      6 March 2015 at 11:24 am

      While I’m reluctant to point the finger until the findings of the investigation into Junior’s death are published I would have to say I agree with Don Franks suggestion that there should be two people working on this job, for safety.

      There needs to be a driver, concentrating on driving (especially manoeuvring a truck on our narrow steep streets) and another worker collecting the recyclables and operating the machinery. These are two separate jobs that require focus. Having just one operator spreads that focus too thin.

      I was worried about the safety of the single operator envirowaste trucks when they came into use a couple of years ago. This death is tragic, it will be even worse if is proven that it was completely avoidable, which I’m wondering if it would have been had there been a co worker who knew the machinery and could and free Junior.

      • idlegus 14.1.1
        6 March 2015 at 3:40 pm

        he was only 20, how much experience i wonder he had operating quite serious machinery & how long he had been working for envirowaste, just seems young to me, sure at 20 you are capable but surely experience plus heavy machinery is a better mix.

  15. Clemgeopin 15
    6 March 2015 at 11:34 am

    REMINDER : NATION WIDE MARCH TOMORROW AGAINST TPPA.
    Hope you will join the march and send a strong message to this government to be careful.

    Here is the link with all the information:

    Please check the TIME and VENUE of the march for your city or a city close to you:

    http://www.itsourfuture.org.nz/events/

    ALSO,
    Please SIGN the petition to John Key here:

    http://www.itsourfuture.org.nz/take-action/defend-our-sovereignty/

    [Also, More info on this thread:
    http://thestandard.org.nz/kelsey-et-al-on-tppa-wn-4-akl-5-march/#comments%5D

    • Rosie 15.1
      6 March 2015 at 11:45 am

      Yes. Will out out marching in Wellington tomorrow.

      Hope the rain and gales hold off. We have no rain or wind for two and half months and now it turns up, when theres an important march and two huge festivals this weekend.

    • Tracey 15.2
      6 March 2015 at 12:39 pm

      DO IT!!!!

  16. UglyTruth 16
    6 March 2015 at 1:02 pm

    Farrar demonstrating his profound ignorance of health issues of cellphone towers:

    “Excellent. The safety issues have been proved 1,000 times over, and just adding them onto existing structures shouldn’t need a resource consent.”

    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2015/03/greens_still_against_cell_phone_towers.html

    IARC indicated that data on long-term incidence of brain cancer will ultimately clarify the nature of the hazard. In fact, there were relatively few regular cellphone users in the Interphone study (which completed data collection in 2004) who had more than ten years use. Three other studies have carried out meta-analyses of all published data on people with over ten years of cellphone use [10-12]. All of these reported a significant risk in gliomas (cancer of the brain). One of these also found an approximate doubling of the risk of being diagnosed with a glioma on the same (“ipsilateral”) side of the head as that preferred for long-term (>10 years) cellphone use (118 cases, OR=1.9; 95% CI, 1.4-2.4). [11]

    http://electromagnetichealth.org/electromagnetic-health-blog/the-economist/

    • Colonial Rawshark 16.1
      6 March 2015 at 1:25 pm

      You can get the Righties on the property devaluing aspects of having a cell phone tower right next to their house.

      You can also imagine the outrage in Epsom if someone wanted to put up a tower right next to their precious kids school.

    • TheContrarian 16.2
      6 March 2015 at 1:28 pm

      electomagnetichealth.org.

      Seems legit.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 16.2.1
        6 March 2015 at 1:30 pm

        😆

      • UglyTruth 16.2.2
        6 March 2015 at 7:45 pm

        Wow, an ad hominem. Who would have thought that the Contrarian could make such an insightful post?

        • Psycho Milt 16.2.2.1
          6 March 2015 at 8:25 pm

          Are you genuinely under the impression that a loon site’s blather about the risks of spending lots of time with a cellphone held to the side of your head is in some way relevant to a post about where cellphone towers are placed? Because it kind of looks like you are.

          • Colonial Rawshark 16.2.2.1.1
            7 March 2015 at 11:05 am

            Apple realises that it is scientifically plausible that mobile phone radiation may present health risks which may become clearer in the future. They clearly say that carrying your iPhone within 10mm of your body means risk of RF radiation exposure above SAR guidelines. Which of course means everybody who carries an iPhone in their pocket.

            • Psycho Milt 16.2.2.1.1.1
              7 March 2015 at 1:52 pm

              It’s plausible, yes. Relevance to a discussion on NIMBYs not wanting cellphone towers anywhere they can see them?

              • Ergo Robertina …
                7 March 2015 at 7:50 pm

                Yep, why not remove all resource consent regulations, and community consultation procedures, and let developers and corporations do as they please?
                Anyone who objects is a NIMBY.
                It’s not your issue and that’s fine, but democracy has been stripped away in many areas in NZ, and this is another.
                There are legitimate concerns over negative health effects; re the useful idiot talking point regarding the IARC 2011 classification of electromagnetic radiation as a class 2B possible carcinogen (that it ranks alongside coffee), we have a choice whether to consume coffee, and we aren’t exposed to it 24-7.
                We effectively have no choice at the moment in exposure to EMF fields, but taking away all community consultation is extreme and draconian, even if you think the fears alarmist.

                • Psycho Milt …
                  7 March 2015 at 8:50 pm

                  Yep, why not remove all resource consent regulations, and community consultation procedures, and let developers and corporations do as they please.

                  Please Google the logical fallacy “false dichotomy.”

                  There are legitimate concerns over negative health effects;

                  Are there? “Legitimate” concerns would be based on known negative effects involving the type of radiation these towers produce and at levels they produce within the radius people might be spending a lot of time in. I haven’t yet seen anything that falls into that category. What I have seen is a lot of hippies who regard anything they don’t understand as a threat, while in many cases using the very same technology they regard as such a threat – “loons” seems entirey appropriate.

                  • Ergo Robertina …
                    7 March 2015 at 9:07 pm

                    What a supercilious patronising response.
                    The only false dichotomy is you dismissing everyone concerned about EMF and corporate dictats supplanting democracy as a loon or hippie.
                    I’ve had a bit to do with people who’ve organised in their community to resist these incursions, and they are typically not unconventional types, for what it’s worth.
                    You’re deploying WO dirty politics tactics – it seems you have no other way of making a point.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      8 March 2015 at 10:07 am

                      The “dictat” is coming from people who refuse to furnish the evidence of known negative effects involving the type of radiation these towers produce and at levels they produce within the radius people might be spending a lot of time in, and yet insist on having a veto over them.

                      Do you have to climb the cellphone tower to get your head close enough to the bad ju-ju?

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      8 March 2015 at 10:17 am

                      RF technicians and engineers know too many colleagues who have contracted unusual tumours and other illnesses to be immediately flippant about the issue.

                      Anyway why are you arguing for corporate rights to pollute the environment for profit? Because the “science” is on their side?

                    • Ergo Robertina …
                      8 March 2015 at 10:19 am

                      ”Veto” – really?
                      Community consultation and resource consent requirements are veto rights now? Stop telling lies.
                      What did IARC rely on if not EVIDENCE to make its 2B classification? It’s not cut and dried scientifically, thus removing EXISTING democratic community rights over the placement of these installations is wrong.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      8 March 2015 at 10:20 am

                      It is well known that cyanide is deadly poison, apples contain cynanide, therefore apples are deadly.

                      What has that got to do with a cell-phone tower?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      8 March 2015 at 10:24 am

                      Once the resource consent has been granted, do the objectors accept the decision?

                      Yeah right. Like I said, they want a veto.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      8 March 2015 at 10:29 am

                      Why can’t Tat Loo argue his point without lying?

                      When did he stop fucking his pig?

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      8 March 2015 at 10:33 am

                      Hey OAB, it’s not your fault that you’re a leftist authoritarian pig.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      8 March 2015 at 10:38 am

                      It’s not my fault you can’t provide evidence that cell-phone towers “pollute”, nor that you’re failing to mask your flailing failure by putting words in my mouth.

                      It’s passive aggressive pigfucker rhetoric though, Tat, so when you stop being a passive-aggressive pigfucker, you’ll experience less overt active hostility.

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      8 March 2015 at 10:42 am

                      You called me a liar and had no right to. Simply pointing that out. You also did not address my point about supporting corporate pollution of our environment for profit just because they have been granted resource consent.

                      You are a nasty angry piece of work. Take a deep breath.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      8 March 2015 at 10:51 am

                      Yeah, I addressed it: you’re lying. I made no such argument. You were asked to provide evidence of harm from cell-phone towers and you immediately started wanking on about the harm from cell-phones.

                      Then you pretended that means pollution, and started your passive aggressive pigfucker bullshit.

                      If you don’t like my response to your pig-fucker bullshit, adopt some better ethics.

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      8 March 2015 at 10:56 am

                      So your basis for attacking me as a liar is that I was talking about the safety of mobile phone radiation whereas you were talking about mobile phone tower radiation?

                      Is that it?

                      Don’t you see that the two types of transmissions are directly and literally (and physically) linked?

                      Wait, have you even ever worked with RF equipment other than your own mobile phone? Do you even know what you are talking about?

                      If you don’t like my response to your pig-fucker bullshit, adopt some better ethics.

                      You need to seriously calm down.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      8 March 2015 at 11:02 am

                      Nope, that’s not it.

                      OAB: The objectors lack evidence and want a veto.

                      Passive Aggressive Pigfucker: Why are you arguing for the right to pollute?

                      This is your usual pattern: your argument fails (never gets off the ground) so you invent a strawman to attack, and then get all whiny when you get a hostile response.

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      8 March 2015 at 11:06 am

                      You’re a leftist authoritarian. Once the state authorities have made a decision, the citizens affected by that decision should have nothing more to say or do.

                      I understand that point of view. And I disagree with it. Get used to dissent.

                      BTW, stop siding with the for-profit corporates against ordinary citizens.

                    • The Murphey …
                      8 March 2015 at 11:18 am

                      http://www.magdahavas.com

                      As a starting point

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      8 March 2015 at 11:20 am

                      Once the state authorities have made a decision, the citizens affected by that decision should have nothing more to say or do.

                      Better, and still no.

                      For citizens to be effective they have to be credible. The courts will decide on the basis of evidence, not gut feelings. Supporting emotive objections will help the citizens lose every single time.

                      I’ve been there: many years ago, up at the big table with a vague sense of injustice. The committee simply pointed out that there was nothing in law that meant they had to listen to me, and they were right.

                    • Ergo Robertina …
                      8 March 2015 at 11:23 am

                      Also this:
                      http://www.bioinitiative.org/
                      A rationale for biologically-based public exposure standards for electromagnetic fields.

                    • Ergo Robertina …
                      8 March 2015 at 11:27 am

                      Didn’t you also argue TPP opponents who point to a lack of democratic oversight are being alarmist and silly OAB?
                      Still running that line too?

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      8 March 2015 at 11:36 am

                      I’ve been there: many years ago, up at the big table with a vague sense of injustice. The committee simply pointed out that there was nothing in law that meant they had to listen to me, and they were right.

                      So you’re both an authoritarian and an authoritarian follower; i.e. someone who quickly defers to authority figures and authority structures. So be it.

                    • The Murphey …
                      8 March 2015 at 11:44 am

                      The committee simply pointed out that there was nothing in law that meant they had to listen to me, and they were right.

                      Q. And from that moment despite a reaslization that ‘the law is an ass’ you accepted defeat and have cowed to this day since ?

                      Q. Has patrolling this web site insulting others become your way to self medicate and claw back a sense of self respect ?

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      8 March 2015 at 12:03 pm

                      And there it is: more passive aggressive pigfucker bullshit.

                      Far from feeling cowed, I went away and got my ducks in a row, so that they could listen to my arguments, which resulted in success.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      8 March 2015 at 12:10 pm

                      No, Ergo, I pointed out that complaining about secrecy in a process that requires secrecy is like complaining that water is wet.

                      You can’t argue with that, so you twist my words instead. Way to look dishonest.

                    • Ergo Robertina …
                      8 March 2015 at 12:22 pm

                      The European Ombudsman doesn’t agree with your view that such talks have to be secret. In respect of the TTIP negotiations between the EU and US, it ordered release of the relevant documents.
                      And as for the TPP, you do realise hundreds of industry representatives are allowed into the negotiations as cleared advisers? So the secrecy you claim is essential is only applied to the public, not the corporates for whom the deal is designed.
                      Keeping it secret is the crucial element in presenting this thing as a done deal.
                      If you can’t grasp that problem, I find it entirely unsurprising you object to community consultation requirements over cellphone antennas.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      8 March 2015 at 12:31 pm

                      Again, without a pause to consider my argument, or settle any ambiguity, you misinterpret it and off you go with the bullshit.

                      The European Ombudsman has not made public any bottom line positions of any of the parties to the negotiations.

                      They must remain secret or the bad guy bogeyman gets an advantage, and we wouldn’t want that now would we?

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      8 March 2015 at 12:36 pm

                      if powerful people including corporate representatives say that it is important that things remain secret from the citizenry, surely we should accept that they know more than us about these matters than us ordinary people and we should put full trust their judgement.

                    • Ergo Robertina …
                      8 March 2015 at 12:44 pm

                      Is the ‘bad guy bogeyman’ in your scenario the public? As pointed out, industry already has access to the documents
                      It would certainly fit the tenor of your other comments on this thread, their contempt for public input.

                      Oh, and Jane Kelsey was unequivocal about the significance of the EU ruling, so your attempt to split hairs over it looks like a Pete George type tactic.

                      http://www.itsourfuture.org.nz/groser-needs-to-explain-why-nz-must-keep-tppa-secret-while-eu-releases-ttip-documents/

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      8 March 2015 at 12:47 pm

                      No.

                      Distributive negotiation. Integrative negotiation. Look them up.

                      Or carry on with the obtuse and pathetic pretence that everyone who disagrees with your emotive crap is a shill, and admit to yourself that your chances of being selected recede with every single comment you make.

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      8 March 2015 at 12:52 pm

                      OAB – your little authoritarian implied threats and projections are simply par for the course. I don’t blame you for them.

                      You should stop siding with the powerful and the authorities though over ***their*** needs for secrecy, over the rights of the citizenry though.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      8 March 2015 at 12:52 pm

                      No, the bad guy bogeymen are the evil bad baddy corporations who want to take away your sovereignty. While they’re actually gearing up to take away your sovereignty, you’re busy pretending our negotiating team is going to help them, because authoritarianism!

                      Own goal, chump.

                      As for my alleged hair-splitting, stop telling lies about my argument and I’ll stop rubbing your face in your mendacity.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      8 March 2015 at 12:58 pm

                      If there’s no need for secrecy in a distributive negotiation, why is Angela Merkel so upset that the NSA tapped her phone?

                      Why were they even trying?

                      Why weren’t you cheering them on?

                    • Ergo Robertina …
                      8 March 2015 at 1:10 pm

                      Yeah, I already pointed out that industry have access and input into the negotiating process, of which you seemed unaware, so your ”bogeyman” thing is simply incoherent.
                      Can’t argue any more though – have things to do.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      8 March 2015 at 1:12 pm

                      Industry players know what the list of New Zealand’s bottom lines looks like?

                      That’s a very serious allegation, probably involves jailtime for the Cabinet Minister or civil servant who told them, and I think I’d like you to provide evidence of that before I take it at face value.

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      8 March 2015 at 1:20 pm

                      You’re a bit behind the curve with the reality of things, aren’t you? This doesn’t require a ‘leaker’ from the NZ negotiating team.

                      Wikileaks already demonstrated that the US Govt shares information with US corporations for economic reasons, and Snowden showed that the US and Canada spied on its own allies at the G8 and G20 diplomatic and trade negotiations.

                      And all NZ internet traffic is captured via the Southern Cross Cable, if not in Auckland, then certainly where it lands in Hawaii. Probably with a Naris device. Any documents, phone calls, emails, attachments, etc that the NZ negotiating team produced, the US has.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      8 March 2015 at 1:31 pm

                      Please try and think more clearly.

                      The NZ govt. knows the extent of the NSA’s reach. If they let them take the info anyway they’re complicit, and presto! Jailtime.

                      Are you saying they’re stupid traitors? Are you saying the negotiators don’t understand the meaning of secure communications? That they blab official secrets on public networks?

                      Well, we are talking about Stephen Joyce, I suppose.

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      8 March 2015 at 1:56 pm

                      I merely explained what the reality is: that our negotiating positions have likely been compromised from the start. I also explained to you how this would probably have been done.

                      Culpability, blame, grounds for prosecution, whatever, is an entirely separate issue.

                      Don’t conflate them.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      8 March 2015 at 2:11 pm

                      So you’re saying the GCSB, which operates the equipment, hasn’t noticed that all cabinet comms are being hoovered up?

                      Why does this conspiracy rely on all its targets being of such low intelligence?

                    • Colonial Rawshark …
                      8 March 2015 at 2:20 pm

                      Your perspective is off. This is not about smart people or dumb people. I’m just telling you what has been in place since 2009 and probably in my view before then: mass surveillance and capture of ***all*** NZ communications data as part of our role in the FVEY network.

                      You may be incredulous that the GCSB and the SIS have played a part in that, but they do have access to the full suite of technologies tools that the NSA applies. Snowdens revelations also showed that NZ intelligence agencies also help to support and improve NSA technolgies. Note that the NSA has been shown to spy on their own lawmakers and on senior officials and delegates of friendly governments.

                      No effective prohibition stands against any of that now. It is fundamentally anti-democratic.

                      Thanks to the journalism done by the Herald, we know that if a NZ delegation goes overseas into the near Pacific region for discussions or negotiations – then they are spied on by FVEY systems based here and the data sent to the USA. Accept the revelations, and move on to dealing with them.

                    • McFlock …
                      8 March 2015 at 2:23 pm

                      Soooo – no evidence cellhone towers cause harm, then? 😈

                    • Ergo Robertina …
                      9 March 2015 at 12:20 am

                      ”Industry players know what the list of New Zealand’s bottom lines looks like? ”

                      This comment and others just demonstrate your total lack of awareness of the inherent power imbalance and vulnerability of NZ in the TPP.
                      You claim to have been at the ”big table” once, and I guess the view of some concerns looks different from there, but you’re being altogether too sanguine about our negotiators’ ability to wrangle something from this rort.
                      This isn’t some domestic row over resources, it means possibly losing autonomy to legislate because of the threat of investor state disputes. And that’s not a ”bogeyman” – there are scores of examples of investor state disputes to show how it’s already panning out in other countries.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      9 March 2015 at 12:49 pm

                      There is no TPP agreement. Our negotiators sit in opposition to US demands.

                      In the linked table, A means “accept”, R means “reject”. Have a look at which clauses NZ rejects and accepts. Compare them to the US position.

                      Clearly our “disadvantage” hasn’t prevented us from disagreeing with them.

                      This is why people say there isn’t a shit-show of negotiations bearing fruit any time soon. Outrageous US demands aren’t quite so big and scary when there’s zero possibility of our acquiescence.

                      PS: “The big table” is a metaphor for any official body that considers arguments and evidence. Nice try though.

  17. Rosie 17
    6 March 2015 at 1:28 pm

    Apologies in advance if this has been discussed.

    Re NZ’s mass surveillance of our Pacific friends and neighbours on behalf of the U.S.

    I’m largely uninformed about China’s growing presence in the Pacific. I know very little apart info gleaned from a Simon Reeves BBC doco about China buying up fisheries around the Pacific, and investing in other business. Then there was also the bit on stuffed.co.nz yesterday about Tonga owing China $14 billion, but now I can’t find that link.

    Does the U.S want to know what China is up to and asks us to do their dirty work?

    Would a TPPA deal block China’s expansion in the Pacific?

    Would NZ spying on Pacific nations piss off one of our largest trading partners?

    • Colonial Rawshark 17.1
      6 March 2015 at 1:44 pm

      The TPPA deal makes it hard for sovereign nations to push back against or limit the commercial activity of large US based corporations, so to that extent it restricts Chinese businesses from getting any foothold in Pacific countries.

      • Rosie 17.1.1
        6 March 2015 at 2:25 pm

        Theoretically then, there could be a link between our spying and the U.S protecting it’s economic interests in the Pacific? Or even Military?

        “WASHINGTON — The Pentagon is fortifying bases in the Pacific and looking to revive World War II-era air bases as part of an effort to survive a Chinese missile attack that could wipe out critical installations on Okinawa and elsewhere, military records, interviews and congressional testimony show.”

        From Dec 2013

        http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/11/25/pentagon-china-missiles-bombers/3665219/

        (random example)

        • Colonial Rawshark 17.1.1.1
          6 March 2015 at 2:38 pm

          I think the link is strong and present.

          • Rosie 17.1.1.1.1
            6 March 2015 at 3:00 pm

            Then we are beyond puppets. We are now Americans. Although, I think that became apparent a few years ago, when Warners came to town and we changed our employment law for their benefit.

            • Colonial Rawshark 17.1.1.1.1.1
              6 March 2015 at 4:53 pm

              To the empire, we are Socii, or possibly Foederati. We get some benefits by being involved with American empire but as is typical, most of those benefits accrue to the top 1%.

              • Draco T Bastard …
                6 March 2015 at 5:11 pm

                Yep, Empire propagates Banana Republics on it’s periphery so as to help maintain control by their own rich.

        • Murray Rawshark 17.1.1.2
          7 March 2015 at 9:08 pm

          If our spying were not important to US commercial interests, they wouldn’t tell us to do it.

      • Rodel 17.1.2
        6 March 2015 at 8:42 pm

        I’m ambivalent about China or any country trying to have influence in the Pacific but I suspect that the TPPA is designed to stop China having influence.
        I wish someone from Labour would make clear policy statements about TPPA.

        • Colonial Rawshark 17.1.2.1
          6 March 2015 at 8:48 pm

          Very interesting why Labour refuses to make clear statements on the TPPA. Suggests to me that they intend to eventually sign and screw the left. Or if National sign it, ah well it’s a done deal.

  18. North 18
    6 March 2015 at 4:53 pm

    Morrissey……come in please – it enrages me to hear nothings the like of Deborah Hill-Cone and umistakeable Luddite Jock Anderson pontificating on The Panel RNZ just now re Customs’ apparent wish to demand from me passwords for my phone/laptop.

    These ‘identities’, distinguishuishable only according to garrulousness and weird fascination with lawyers respectively, presume to mock my concerns about the invasion (without any pretence to reasonable cause) of my privacy. As though that were their property.

    WTF use or ornament are these up-themselves idiots ?

  19. One Anonymous Bloke 19
    6 March 2015 at 5:30 pm

    Closely followed by my new startup: a series of comedy tweets to mercilessly lampoon the new victimhood 😈

    • Draco T Bastard 20.1
      6 March 2015 at 6:19 pm

      The only way to avoid catching measles was to have had two measles vaccinations at 15 months and four years.

      Or to have survived having measles previously.

      • McFlock 20.1.1
        6 March 2015 at 6:31 pm

        doesn’t that involve catching measles in the first place?

        • Draco T Bastard 20.1.1.1
          6 March 2015 at 8:06 pm

          It does prevent you from catching them again 😛

          • Colonial Viper 20.1.1.1.1
            6 March 2015 at 8:08 pm

            And more effectively than the vaccination.

            • Draco T Bastard 20.1.1.1.1.1
              7 March 2015 at 9:41 am

              Possibly, although I doubt that, but it also comes with the significant risk of death. Personally, I’d prefer the vaccination than the actual measles.

              • weka …
                7 March 2015 at 10:27 am

                “Possibly, although I doubt that, but it also comes with the significant risk of death.”

                What makes you say the risk of death is significant? For most people that’s not true.

                “Personally, I’d prefer the vaccination than the actual measles.”

                If we’re talking about personal preferences, having had measles, I’d choose measles unless there were specific medical reasons for me personally why it was better to have the vaccine.

                • northshoredoc …
                  7 March 2015 at 11:47 am

                  “If we’re talking about personal preferences, having had measles, I’d choose measles unless there were specific medical reasons for me personally why it was better to have the vaccine.”

                  You just don’t get the science behind vaccination do you ?

                  • The Murphey …
                    7 March 2015 at 11:57 am

                    And you don’t get that ‘the science’ is not the issue

                    That you do not answer reasonable questions use rolly eyes and insults is a sad indictment on you as a human being as well as the profession you represent

                    I understand that you mistake your working life and contribution to the profession you represent as being ‘the science’ but it’s not

                  • northshoredoc …
                    7 March 2015 at 12:00 pm

                    ….just to expand….. this means that after injection, the viruses grow and cause a harmless infection in the vaccinated person with very few, if any, symptoms. The person’s immune system fights the infection caused by these weakened viruses and immunity develops.

                  • The Murphey …
                    7 March 2015 at 12:22 pm

                    I know you don’t believe that is what I represent and I know it is your fear and ego which allow you come up with such blatant slander

                    IMO your comments and approach represent the core barriers to genuine progress and improvement to this planet and all its inhabitants

                    I accept the limitations which are placed upon people through dogma institutionalized training frameworks and constructs which most confuse as being ‘professional life’

                    Boxed into convention and trapped for eternity because of fear and misunderstanding of thy self

                  • weka …
                    7 March 2015 at 12:22 pm

                    “You just don’t get the science behind vaccination do you ?”

                    Actually I do. You have no way of assessing my understanding of the science because I largely avoid the conversations here on that. The only way to know would be to have a conversation with me, which you haven’t done. Instead you’ve made some assumptions that are incorrect.

                    You’ve entirely missed the points I was making by my comment, one of which was a response to seeing a pro-mandatory vaccination person talk about their personal preferences. Maybe that was a bit subtle.

                    • northshoredoc …
                      7 March 2015 at 12:26 pm

                      Fine Weka.

                      I really would welcome you explaining why you would rather

                      “choose measles unless there were specific medical reasons for me personally why it was better to have the vaccine.”

                    • weka …
                      7 March 2015 at 12:59 pm

                      Bearing in mind this is in the context of Draco introducing the idea of personal preference to a discussion about mandatory vaccination, it’s because I trust naturally aquired immunity in my situation more than I trust the vaccine, and because I think decisions to vaccinate are context specific and in my personal situation I’d choose what I’d choose (which is a fairly theoretical argument given I was a child when I had measles and if it were now the choice would be my parents’ not mine).

                      I don’t particularly want to get into the details of my situation online and I appreciate that this probably then doesn’t answer your question very well (am guessing you are looking for specific medical reasons), but for me it takes us straight to the ethical issues around whether people have personal choice and autonomy regarding their health. We now have several decades of debate, work and legislation around that that basically support people’s right to make their own health decisions and be supported in that, which is one of the reasons I’m surprised to see lefties willing to ride rough shod over it so easily.

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      7 March 2015 at 4:13 pm

                      You have no way of assessing my understanding of the science because I largely avoid the conversations here on that.

                      Actualy, we do – we have all your tripe on the subject on here to refer to ascertain that you haven’t got a friggen clue.

                      it’s because I trust naturally aquired immunity in my situation more than I trust the vaccine

                      Taking the measles vaccine causes your immune system to naturally develop defenses against the measles virus thus leaving you immune to it.

                    • The Murphey …
                      7 March 2015 at 7:44 pm

                      Taking the measles vaccine causes your immune system to naturally develop defenses against the measles virus thus leaving you immune to it.

                      Q. Draco are you claiming a vaccine to be natural ?

                      Q. Is the vaccine more or less natural than coming into contact with measles in another human being ?

                    • weka …
                      7 March 2015 at 11:17 pm

                      🙄 @Draco. Slur-based insults instead of engagement, says quite a lot actually.

                      “Taking the measles vaccine causes your immune system to naturally develop defenses against the measles virus thus leaving you immune to it.”

                      Again with the semantics. Yes, you are right, but it doesn’t really have any relation to my comment unless you want to argue over the word ‘natural’ for some reason.

            • McFlock 20.1.1.1.1.2
              7 March 2015 at 9:41 am

              we have to infect the village to inoculate it? Super.

            • northshoredoc 20.1.1.1.1.3
              7 March 2015 at 11:50 am

              Yes that’s true, it’s also far, far more likely to lead to serious side effects and the infection of others.

              It’s a bit like the people who have chickenpox parties for children…morons.

    • weka 20.2
      6 March 2015 at 8:08 pm

      “Measles is a serious illness with no treatment.”

      With public health information of that calibre, no wonder that some people are sceptical and others are without primary health care skills (and no, by that I don’t mean going to the doctor).

      • Draco T Bastard 20.2.1
        7 March 2015 at 9:41 am

        It’s accurate so what’s your complaint about it?

        • weka 20.2.1.1
          7 March 2015 at 10:14 am

          It’s misleading. How measles gets managed by parents is important and the article both misleads (“no treatment”) and fails to direct people to what they should do if their child contracts measles.

          Now we can have a semantic argument about what ‘treatment’ means, but to most parents I’ve known it includes how to care for a sick child, what to do about fever, pain etc. The article could be written by someone who had no clue, or this could be the actual message being given out by health authorities (there is nothing you can do). Either way, it’s a good example of both why some people are critical of public health approaches, and why some people have no homecare health skills.

          • Molly 20.2.1.1.1
            7 March 2015 at 11:02 am

            ” How measles gets managed by parents is important and the article both misleads (“no treatment”) and fails to direct people to what they should do if their child contracts measles. “

            I agree. If measles is presently an epidemic, then this information should be added to the article for the public good. But the cynic in me thinks that it is written to bash home the vaccination message only, and has no interest in helping give information to those that may have contracted the disease on the flight.

            A simple – keep fluids up, and Vitamin A supplements would be a good start. As well as low-light for patient’s comfort.

            • northshoredoc 20.2.1.1.1.1
              7 March 2015 at 11:53 am

              A simple – make an urgent phone call to your primary care physician and keep the patient isolated would be a good start…FIFY.

              • Molly …
                7 March 2015 at 11:57 am

                Unless it is after hours or the weekend. Unless you have no phone access.

                Why not put all that in the article – which was the point that weka made and I reinforced (and you did too, while being disagreeable)

                • northshoredoc …
                  7 March 2015 at 12:02 pm

                  There are after hours services in all major centres and the majority of rural areas also.

                  The reason that none of this was put in the article is that a journalist wrote it.

                  • weka …
                    7 March 2015 at 12:19 pm

                    And yet the journalist managed to write other things in the article.

                    The idea that if a child gets measles a parent can just phone and be told what they need to know fails on so many levels. As Molly points out, not everyone has a phone or credit on their phone to make phone calls.

                    It’s better to have health knowledge before you need it rather than having to learn or take in new things while you are stressed or tired or trying to juggle too many things eg managing a fever at home is a learned skill, not something to just be told over the phone. You can be told over the phone, but you still have to go through the process of learning how to do what you are told. Promotion of a largely unskilled home health care generation also puts the power with the medical profession and MoH (which I’m sure is what is intended), but it actually fails basic public health interests.

                    I’m of the generation where it was normal for parents to know how to deal with many childhood ilnesses at home. Many of those skills have and are being lost. The system thinking that parents can just phone a doctor (or visit a doctor) when there is any kind of problem is why we don’t manage things as well at home any more and it’s part of why trust is decreasing. It also puts children at risk.

                    • northshoredoc …
                      7 March 2015 at 12:31 pm

                      @Weka so your position is that the parent should diagnose measles and treat the child at home ?

                      From my reading of your post it appears you suggest that there is some kind of conspiracy amongst the government and health professionals over these kind of infectious diseases ?

                      I can assure you this is not the case.

                    • weka …
                      7 March 2015 at 12:47 pm

                      “@Weka so your position is that one should diagnose measles and treat the child at home ?”

                      Not quite. I think that in general child health is better served where the parenting population is informed and skilled at managing health care at home. This in no way precludes medical involvement, I’m saying we should have both.

                      With measles, I think that parents knowing how to manage that at home contains community exposure, as opposed to parents who have no idea what to do and take their infectious child to the local practice or A and E (it works the other way too. When I’ve been seriously ill my GP has told me to stay away from the clinic, too many infectious people, and stay away from town). There are flow on effects from home care, around less stress to the child, more sense of being cared for (assuming that happens) etc, and the subtle effects on immunity and health resiliency that come from that. Again, none of this precludes medical attention, it complements it.

                      “From my reading of your post it appears you suggest that there is some kind of conspiracy amongst the government and health professionals over these kind of infectious diseases ?”

                      No, I don’t think there is a conspiracy. I think it’s just a natural consequence of the particular world view that most health authorities work from nowadays. Get everyone vaccinated, don’t bother educating the population because if they need help they can go to the doctor. That’s a huge shift from when I was a kid and parents knew now to manage many illnesses at home (and when to seek medical care).

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      7 March 2015 at 4:22 pm

                      As Molly points out, not everyone has a phone or credit on their phone to make phone calls.

                      And so they wouldn’t be looking on the internet either right?

                      Promotion of a largely unskilled home health care generation also puts the power with the medical profession and MoH (which I’m sure is what is intended), but it actually fails basic public health interests.

                      I’m fairly sure that you’ll find basic first aid/health care is taught at schools these days and is far more than anything you or I ever got.

                    • weka …
                      7 March 2015 at 11:22 pm

                      “And so they wouldn’t be looking on the internet either right?”

                      Why not? Free public access at the local library, or a friend’s, or a friend prints it off or tells them. There are whole bodies of knowledge that get passed around verbally. People learn and share skills in many ways. Getting the the information out there in a variety of ways would make sense. But my point was mostly about how relying on people being able to phone a doctor in the middle of the night was a pretty limited form of public health support.

                • marty mars …
                  7 March 2015 at 12:03 pm

                  lol watch out Molly, doc don’t like dis

            • weka 20.2.1.1.1.2
              7 March 2015 at 12:26 pm

              Thanks Molly. I’d add knowing what complications are and would look like and when one might need to see a doctor and how to do that without bringing an infected child into contact with the general population including esp vulnerable people.

              It’s acutally astonishing that this kind of information isn’t being promoted, so I tend to agree with you that it’s about pusing vaccination, and it’s about keeping the power and control with the medical profession and the MoH.

              • northshoredoc …
                7 March 2015 at 12:34 pm

                “I’d add knowing what complications are and would look like and when one might need to see a doctor and how to do that without bringing an infected child into contact with the general population including esp vulnerable people.”

                Yes, but once again for certain of the complications probably best done by a health practitioner or on advisement of a health practitioner.

                “It’s acutally astonishing that this kind of information isn’t being promoted, so I tend to agree with you that it’s about pusing vaccination, and it’s about keeping the power and control with the medical profession and the MoH.”

                This is just so far off target as to be twilight zone stuff.

                • weka …
                  7 March 2015 at 1:04 pm

                  “Yes, but once again for certain of the complications probably best done by a health practitioner or on advisement of a health practitioner.”

                  I think you are misunderstanding. I’m suggesting that at the most basic level the public should be informed about when they need to seek medical attention. I’m kind of surprised I have to be explaining this given the infectious nature of measles.

                • weka …
                  7 March 2015 at 1:06 pm

                  “This is just so far off target as to be twilight zone stuff.”

                  That doesn’t really tell me anything about why you disagree with me other than that found something weird about my comment. I don’t think there is anything nefarious about the power and control issues, but there are very clear patterns that we can talk about if you want.

              • Molly …
                7 March 2015 at 6:31 pm

                Hi weka.

                I have an amicable relationship with my children’s GP, who has quite an abrasive manner so is no pushover.

                When it comes to fevers, we have agreed a set of parameters that I use to determine whether to expose them to the elements and a wait in the doctors waiting room. These parameters include but are not limited to: taking regular temperatures and recording them, and monitoring any changes when treating fevers with paracetomol. Whether they are still taking fluids, and how aware they are. Most parents can tell the difference after a while between a good sleep – and one that is a concern. Fevers have often moved on within 24 hours, or recovery is apparent before that time. This agreement has worked for us, and I would have no hesitation with taking my child to medical care if I noticed something outside this agreed and practiced protocol.

                In this way, other patients are not exposed to something contagious, and my children have not compounded their discomfort and lengthened their recovery by hours long trips to the doctor, and exposure to the weather and other patients in the waiting rooms.

                It has been a learned experience, and one that has contributed to better at home care for some of their illnesses.

          • Draco T Bastard 20.2.1.1.2
            7 March 2015 at 4:17 pm

            Now we can have a semantic argument about what ‘treatment’ means, but to most parents I’ve known it includes how to care for a sick child, what to do about fever, pain etc.

            /facepalm.

            Keeping the infected comfortable is caring for them but does nothing to treat the disease. Again, we’re at a point in you choosing definitions for words that don’t exist to try to support your argument.

            • Molly 20.2.1.1.2.1
              7 March 2015 at 6:18 pm

              It was the article itself said that there was no treatment for measles.

              It could have more accurately stated that there were no drug therapies for this disease, but once contracted the following steps should be followed – insert recommendations such as those mentioned from northshoredoc, weka and myself here.

              It is a conversation about providing information that informs the public good. Instead of framing every article from a vaccination ethos of “if you have contracted it, let’s find out whose fault it is”, rather than – “if you have contracted measles – these are steps and measures you can take towards a faster recovery, and more comfortable illness”.

              For arguments sake, both options could be included without impact on the vaccination message.

            • weka 20.2.1.1.2.2
              7 March 2015 at 11:10 pm

              “Keeping the infected comfortable is caring for them but does nothing to treat the disease.”

              Women at home providing primary health care for their kids don’t differentiate in the way you just have. That’s the point (plus see what Molly said).

  21. Rodel 21
    6 March 2015 at 8:36 pm

    Oh Jeez!
    I’ve just watched Judith Collins dancing on stage, on Campbell live with an Elvis impersonator who looks like Cameron Slater.
    This must be the comeback………vomit!

    • One Anonymous Bloke 21.1
      8 March 2015 at 1:42 pm

      Judith jumped the shark? I wonder whether it signals acceptance or desperation.

      Either way it’s good news. She’s done. Turn her over.

  22. greywarbler 22
    6 March 2015 at 8:56 pm

    This is surprising. The Australian government or state anyway has controls against overseas investors buying property and are going to order the sale of a Sydney house.
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-03/hockey-orders-sale-of-39-million-dollar-sydney-mansion/6278116

    http://www.worldbulletin.net/news/156111/australia-probes-illegal-foreign-home-buyers

    • Murray Rawshark 22.1
      7 March 2015 at 9:19 pm

      The Australian government prefers to gift things to foreign investors rather than sell them. The coal in the Galilee Basin and the infrastructure that Bjelke-Newman wanted to build and give to an Indian company are a good example.