Open Mike 08/01/2017

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, January 8th, 2017 - 142 comments
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142 comments on “Open Mike 08/01/2017 ”

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  1. EE 1
    8 January 2017 at 7:43 am

    I just found out that Art Theorist Jon Berger died earlier this week.
    His “Ways of Seeing” TV program changed the way I saw.
    https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/jan/02/john-berger-obituary

    • mikesh 2.1
      8 January 2017 at 1:57 pm

      None of these schemes seem to be UBI’s of the sort suggested by Gareth Morgan and Keith Rankin. Their UBIs would be payable to everyone, rich or poor, employed or unemployed.

  3. Rosemary McDonald 3
    8 January 2017 at 9:27 am

    A pity it is Family First who has mooted this….http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11778433

    …subsidies for parents who choose to stay at home with their pre- schoolers rather than depositing them in state funded day care/early childhood ‘education’.

    Imagine if a parent who chose to care for their child themselves was paid the going rate for ece…..https://www.childforum.com/costs-subsidies-prices/72-government-ece-funding-rates.html

    …or childcare….https://www.childforum.com/costs-subsidies-prices/274-childcare-subsidy-a-tax-deduction.html

    • garibaldi 3.1
      8 January 2017 at 9:44 am

      You are right Rosemary, it is a pity that FF have proposed this. One automatically supposes ulterior motives, just like most homeschoolers and Charter schools.

    • JanM 3.2
      8 January 2017 at 10:32 am

      Why the quotation marks around education, Rosemary? Ece teachers have a three year training qualification just like primary. It is possible you do not understand what education at this level is about, or are you having a well-aimed crack at some of the more commercial, lesser quality centres around since the world and its wife discovered what a wonderful cash cow it can be?

      • Rosemary McDonald 3.2.1
        8 January 2017 at 11:24 am

        “…or are you having a well-aimed crack at some of the more commercial, lesser quality centres around since the world and its wife discovered what a wonderful cash cow it can be?”

        Yes…yes most definitely.

        But also I have to question (hence the ‘ ‘) if what pre -schoolers receive in these artificial environment is a better preparation for primary school.

        Parents are the best first teachers of their children, and it was a source of personal grief that I was forced into paid work when mine were little. But apart from a brief six weeks in a private ece centre for No 1 son ( he was bored there, so we quit) all three of mine got their preparation for primary school from home.

        Within a few days of them beginning school, their teachers wanted to know which pre- school/kindy they had gone to to be so well prepared for primary school. I have a reasonable level of formal education but certainly no teacher training, child development training or any other formal learning that we are now told is vital for very young children to succeed and reach their full potential.

        Hmmm…when you think about it…the phenomena of very young children being ‘educated’ by strangers is very recent.

        Coincides with the economic necessity of families needing two incomes to keep their heads above water.

        The jury is still out on the benefits of mass ece…and I suspicion that much of the research to test the benefits may very well be funded by those with vested interest in maintaining what has become (unfortunately IMO) the norm.

        • Draco T Bastard 3.2.1.1
          8 January 2017 at 12:52 pm

          Parents are the best first teachers of their children

          How does ignorance translate into better teachers?

          You note that you have a reasonable level of education but the majority of people don’t. That’s changing as more people get more and better education but it’s not true at present.

          Hmmm…when you think about it…the phenomena of very young children being ‘educated’ by strangers is very recent.

          Yes. Just a few thousand years ago they would have been taught by the entire tribe whom they would have known and grown up with.

          • Rosemary McDonald 3.2.1.1.1
            8 January 2017 at 2:02 pm

            “How does ignorance translate into better teachers?”

            You are going to have to expand on that DTB…are you saying that all those without formal teaching qualifications are ignorant.

            “You note that you have a reasonable level of education but the majority of people don’t.”

            Wot? The majority? Data please.

            We have been told we are not qualified to teach our own under fives…by whom?

            Yes to the UBI…but more importantly better access to ‘confidence in parenting’ courses for those who find being a parent challenging.

            Like this…http://www.tipuora.org.nz/parents-as-first-teachers/

            oh but wait…http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/304311/funds-cut-from-parents-as-teachers-scheme

            There is an agenda here….

            • Draco T Bastard 3.2.1.1.1.1
              8 January 2017 at 3:45 pm

              You are going to have to expand on that DTB…are you saying that all those without formal teaching qualifications are ignorant.

              No, I’m saying that the majority of people simply don’t have enough education to raise children. That’s what that really stupid referendum on continuing to allow people to smack their children got so much support.

              Wot? The majority? Data please.

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tertiary_education_attainment

              You’ll note that less than 50% have tertiary education.

              We have been told we are not qualified to teach our own under fives…by whom?

              Those people who have done the research.

              It’s been known for quite some time that those children with better educated parents and social circles tend to end up with better education and life outcomes than those who don’t.

              I don’t really think that sending kids off to preschool is a great idea. It’s there to try and break that cycle that I just mentioned but we need to be lifting the parents as well as the children.

              • One Two …
                8 January 2017 at 4:49 pm

                Do you know the “majority of people”?

                Do you have children?

                What level of ‘education’ for parenting is acceptable from your perspective?

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  8 January 2017 at 5:09 pm

                  Do you know the “majority of people”?

                  Nope. Like everyone I have to go on statistics.

                  Do you have children?

                  Having children doesn’t make you an expert on children or how to raise them in a healthy environment.

                  What level of ‘education’ for parenting is acceptable from your perspective?

                  Ah, a loaded question designed to enable you to ridicule me no matter what I say.

                  • One Two …
                    8 January 2017 at 6:10 pm

                    Statistics to gauge parental suitability?

                    Having children qualifies people to comment on the role of parenting, in reality, not through statistics

                    No children (or raising, caring, fostering etc) does not preclude anyone from offering opinions. But on raising children, they don’t carry much credibility because they lack first hand experience of ‘parenting’

                    Your comment further below about the UBI and ECE for parents who wish to raise children at home, is a good suggestion. As an example of where non parent opinions can contribute

                    The education question was not loaded, I was curious as you had not qualified the statement( s)

                    • Rosemary McDonald …
                      8 January 2017 at 7:43 pm

                      “But on raising children, they don’t carry much credibility because they lack first hand experience of ‘parenting’.”

                      This.

                      Not something you can learn from a book.

                      Oh god! Imagine reading that 83.4% of three year old boys are 97.6 % toilet trained (including at night.)

                      Or that 78.3% of two and a half year old girls can use three or more words in an intelligible sentence!

                      Statistics and parenting…mutually exclusive!

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      8 January 2017 at 8:31 pm

                      @One Two

                      Having children qualifies people to comment on the role of parenting, in reality, not through statistics

                      Not really. Or do you really think that the parents of the Kahui twins knew what they were doing?

                      IMO, we have such high childhood abuse statistics because our parents don’t know how to parent which they learned from their parents.

                      The education question was not loaded

                      Yes it was because it couldn’t be answered with an ‘acceptable’ answer. No matter what I put there you would have found a way to use it as an attack.

                      @Rosemary McDonald

                      “But on raising children, they don’t carry much credibility because they lack first hand experience of ‘parenting’.”

                      This.

                      Not something you can learn from a book.

                      That’s what a lot of ignorant people say about a lot of things taught in school. You’ll note that those people who do learn it in school do it better at the start than those who don’t.

                      In other words, you’re talking a load of bollocks.

                    • One Two []
                      9 January 2017 at 12:11 am

                      There was no need to insult anyone, Draco. Perhaps reflect on the projection in your comments as well

                      That you won’t provide a response on education level (due to an imagined, unforthcoming’attack’) is counter to having a point of reference to begin with

                      Using the Kahui twins as an example shows me how uneduated you are on this subject, which is why statistics hold appeal to you, along with reference to the ‘smacking referendum’

                      “Know what they were doing” does not come into a sensible discussion about parenting, Draco. If you were a parent you would understand why your comment is so misplaced. Heck even common sense should help you with that one…parent or not

                      “High abuse statistics” and their causation are a very different conversation from where I stand, and bringing them into this discussion to support (whatever your position) appears misplaced

                      Being a parent/carer is a natural phenomenon which has been successfully performed since day one. The ‘education’ I suspect you have in mind was superfluous at anytime outside and including the modern age

                      Skills and and learnings are still wonderfully transferred through generations in nations around the world through a plethora of different cultures

                      There is no need for anything other than ensuring informative and skills based training/education/support is available to those who may seek it out, and let people find their way organically

                      Such courses are fundamental and elementary in form, and compliment the innate capabilities of the overwhelming majority of parents and parents to be..

                      Is this the sort of ‘education’ you’re referring?

                      Or am I to join the threads you’re leaving behind and take a path which I believe is somewhat sinister on your part?

                      Whichever angle it is you’re coming from, it’s not an ‘educated’ one, that much is clear!

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      9 January 2017 at 11:09 am

                      There was no need to insult anyone,

                      I haven’t insulted anyone.

                      Being a parent/carer is a natural phenomenon which has been successfully performed since day one.

                      Really?

                      Then why are we so damn bad at it?

                      Skills and and learnings are still wonderfully transferred through generations in nations around the world through a plethora of different cultures

                      Except for the fact that they’re not due to the ongoing fragmentation of society through Individualism and Capitalism.

                      Think about it this way:
                      It used to be that a household would have three or more generations living in it. The elders would look after the children while the middle generations worked. The middle generations would learn from the elders how to look after the children.

                      Now we’ve broken that. We have only two generations living in a house – the parents and the children. So the parents aren’t learning from their elders, don’t have the immediate support that they used to have and the children are only getting fragmented experience.

                      Each generation that passes becomes worse at parenting.

                      Such courses are fundamental and elementary in form, and compliment the innate capabilities of the overwhelming majority of parents and parents to be..

                      Mankind doesn’t appear to have any innate capabilities. This is why we need to be taught.

              • KJT …
                9 January 2017 at 10:17 am

                I seem to remember some research that Playcentre produced the best results.

                Playcentre, of course, relied on parents attending with their children, along with the playcentre associations free courses in parenting.

                Educating both parents and children.

        • Psycho Milt 3.2.1.2
          8 January 2017 at 1:13 pm

          Hmmm…when you think about it…the phenomena of very young children being ‘educated’ by strangers is very recent.

          So’s the phenomena of the physically disabled or mentally ill not being regarded as an embarrassment to be hidden away by their relatives. “Recent” != “bad.”

          Parents are the best first teachers of their children…

          In some cases, maybe. Not that many, though. The people working in my kids’ childcare centres were way better educators of small children than I was, not least because they’d had a shitload of training in it, compared to my “training” of knowing how my parents and my friends’ parents had done it.

          • Rosemary McDonald 3.2.1.2.1
            8 January 2017 at 1:49 pm

            “Parents are the best first teachers of their children…

            In some cases, maybe. Not that many, though. ”

            With respect PM…rubbish.

            Following your logic…only those with the requisite years of study and proper qualifications should be caring for and ‘educating’ under five year- olds.

            Next great ideologically based legislation will be compulsory early childhood education by ‘professionals’….oh, wait, they already did that…

            http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10833412

            “Early childhood experts are in shock after a government decision to make education compulsory from the age of 3 for children of welfare beneficiaries.

            The decision, announced by Social Development Minister Paula Bennett yesterday, will apply from July to 31,500 children, aged 3 and 4, whose parents are either on sole parent or couple benefits.

            Parents will have their benefits halved if they fail to take “all reasonable steps” to keep their children in licensed or certificated early education for at least 15 hours a week from the time they turn 3 until they go to school.

            A Cabinet paper estimates that about 2200 beneficiary families might fail the test each year, of which 1300 might fail to comply immediately and have their benefits halved.

            Dr Sarah Farquhar of the Child Forum early childhood support network said the decision amounted to “a revolution in our social policy”.”

            Unsurprisingly, those with vested interests (read…snouts in the government trough) thought this was a great idea.

            https://www.ecc.org.nz/Story?Action=View&Story_id=841

            “‘From this point of view early childhood education can be viewed as an inoculation for multiple diseases, with these diseases including low achievement at school, criminality, unemployment, and poverty as an adult.’

            The requirement to ensure children attend early childhood education had the potential to rescue hundreds of thousands of children from educational underachievement, ‘and the nightmare that could follow from that’.

            It was, said Mr Reynolds, ‘one of the most important welfare reforms in recent years’, and was likely to start changing lives the week it was implemented.”

            Scaremongering much?

            Psycho Milt…you seem to be a fairly intelligent sort of person…for goodness sakes…have a bit more confidence in your own abilities as a parent…and by ‘parent’ I mean all aspects of parenting….giving love, protection from harm, proper housing and nutrition, teaching language and communication skills, teaching morals and ethics, etc. etc.

            • Psycho Milt 3.2.1.2.1.1
              8 January 2017 at 2:14 pm

              Following your logic…only those with the requisite years of study and proper qualifications should be caring for and ‘educating’ under five year- olds.

              That’s not logic, it’s reductio ad absurdum. We could do the same to your position, by “following its logic” to the conclusion that only a child’s biological parents should be caring for it.

              …have a bit more confidence in your own abilities as a parent…and by ‘parent’ I mean all aspects of parenting….giving love, protection from harm, proper housing and nutrition, teaching language and communication skills, teaching morals and ethics, etc. etc.

              I did all those things in the time the kids weren’t in childcare, ie by far the greater amount of the time. But while I was at work, it was being handled by trained professionals, and life provides inexhaustible examples of how professionals are better than amateurs. Those guys did a great job and were worth every cent.

            • Carolyn_nth 3.2.1.2.1.2
              8 January 2017 at 6:26 pm

              I don’t think pre-school education should be compulsory. It, however, should be an accessible choice for any parent who wants it, for whatever reason. And good quality pre-school centres should be available.

              The Natz government’s policies are just in the same vein as all their punitive, condescending treatment of beneficiaries.

              Parents should also have state supported choice to stay home with pre-schoolers, rather than being pressured into work.

          • The Fairy Godmother 3.2.1.2.2
            8 January 2017 at 5:33 pm

            Just wondering what it was that your Kid’s teachers were so much better at teaching your children than you were? The main thing young children need to learn are language and how to get along with other people in their family and community. No matter how good the centre is the ratios of adults to children is much worse than that of a child in a family. Parents can have far more frequent and deeper conversations with children than a childcare teacher with a ratio of one to five for under twos and 1 to ten for overs can possibly do. The same goes with learning social mores. Children who spend their time in large groups of other children do not have as much adult role modeling and guidance in how to behave properly instead learning from other children of a similar age and stage. Hence why I think Rosemary McDondald’s children who had spent most of their time with family arrived at school with advanced social skills which impressed their teachers.

            I have no problem with children going into early childhood centres if that meets the needs of their families. However, I think that big commercial interests are selling educational advantages to us that are just not realistic. There is a lot of push down curriculum from school and parents being impressed by children learning school stuff such as numbers and letters instead of playing. I would say that unless a family is very dysfunctional with a lot of problems parents can certainly do just as good a job if not better than a commercial centre.

            • Carolyn_nth 3.2.1.2.2.1
              8 January 2017 at 6:04 pm

              Children are differnet in the kinds of experiences they learn from – it’s not one-size fits all. Some children may benefit more from the home environment, others may benefit from a pre-school one – and there are probably individual differences in the kind of day care that a child responds to.

              A good child care centre would focus a lot on social skills and learning through play – providing a wide range of play experiences. It’s actually more pressure that comes from some parents who think the child care centre should be doing some sort of formal teaching.

              A good child care centre should have a small number of children for each staff member.

              There are some social skills learned in a child care centre that are not so easily taught “in the home” (although it’s a bit of an assumption that parents and children spend all their time at home). So, learning to engage with people other than family members, with social rules that are not necessarily the same in each home, are useful pre-school skills.

              Plus, for some children, the kinds of daily routines in schools are a shock after a more free-form day at home. So having set times for certain activities at a pre-school, can ease some children into a school-type routine.

              Also, the skills needed for staff in child care centres, include some not so often practiced in the home – managing small groups of (possibly diverse) children, for instance, in play activities. Also being aware of the health and safety procedures in such situations is an important staff skill.

              People who are good with their own children may not be so good with other children in a pre-school setting – different set of skills.

            • Psycho Milt 3.2.1.2.2.2
              8 January 2017 at 6:41 pm

              Just wondering what it was that your Kid’s teachers were so much better at teaching your children than you were?

              In the early stages, it was stuff like toilet training and how to eat like a human. Later, it was stuff like numbers and writing – my kids could write their own names when they started school and I sure as hell had nothing to do with it. However, the most important thing they taught was how to behave in a group of unrelated strangers, which no kid gets from their family and often makes a very noticeable difference at the year one school level. My experience leads me to a completely different conclusion than yours with regard to learning social mores – childcare was much better for that. (Although, presumably the quality of the childcare is relevant here.)

              • The Fairy Godmother …
                8 January 2017 at 7:18 pm

                Ok fair enough. I guess everyone has different ideas about what is important. My kids did not go to childcare but to Playcentre as I did not go back to work until our youngest started school. I think they did know how to write their names from memory but don’t remember teaching them. They didn’t know the alphabet or anything like that but they soon picked all this up at school. I think that learning oral language, and conversing and thinking are more important than reading and writing at that age. They have certainly done OK in the education system with the older two currently doing Masters and Phd degrees. I do believe that school and institutionalised pre-school teaches children how to fit into an institution. I am not too sure if teaching compliance in an institutionalised setting at a very young age is necessarily what they need to learn in our complex and troubled world.

                • Carolyn_nth …
                  8 January 2017 at 8:32 pm

                  I am not too sure if teaching compliance in an institutionalised setting at a very young age is necessarily what they need to learn in our complex and troubled world.

                  I can understand that.

                  Although, a lot of our school system is about funneling people into our dominant institutions, workplaces, etc – our education system does tend to reward compliance. That’s why some parents opt to home school their children and/or send them to alternative schools.

                  • The Fairy Godmother …
                    8 January 2017 at 9:56 pm

                    My children went through the state school system. I feel that having their early years predominately with family meant they gained a strong sense of who they are and the ability to cope with the institutionalised education systems without losing the ability to question, be creative, and think for themselves.

              • Rosemary McDonald …
                8 January 2017 at 7:30 pm

                “In the early stages, it was stuff like toilet training and how to eat like a human. ”

                I’m sorry PM…I have to wonder what sort of role model/s your kids were getting from home in these areas? (And honestly, I and every other honest parent has had a ‘what on earth have I spawned here’ moment. Or three. 😉 )

                But seriously, (and moving right on along), did you never read to your kids? Never wrote their name proudly on the latest piece of pre-school artwork? Never counted out the cutlery when setting the table or demonstrated simple fractions when cutting the cake? Never played the ‘count the number of yellow/green/blue cars spotted’ when on a long and boring drive?

                “However, the most important thing they taught was how to behave in a group of unrelated strangers, which no kid gets from their family…”

                Did you never go shopping with your kids? Exposing them to strangers and crowds of unfamiliar people? To a movie, pantomime or an outdoor concert?

                If you answer, “Off course you silly woman I did all of that stuff with my kids when they were under five!”… then you, sir, were their first teacher.

                Lessons learned from the people closest to the very young child are the ones that stick.

                That’s why those parents less well equipped for the job of parenting need help…

                • The Fairy Godmother …
                  8 January 2017 at 7:43 pm

                  “That’s why those parents less well equipped for the job of parenting need help…”

                  Which is what organisations such as Playcentre offer, and unfortunately are offering less and less as fewer parents are able to make the choice to stay with their children and are working longer and longer hours. I find it heartbreaking that a beneficiary who in earlier days would have been able to attend Playcentre with their child and upskill themselves at the same time as well as gaining support from the Playcentre community, is less and less likely to be able to do this with WINZ preferring them to attend courses and seminars on things such as CV writing.

                  • Clump_AKA Sam …
                    8 January 2017 at 8:11 pm

                    All you want is children willing to learn and teachers willing to teach. In Mexico they have that in abundance with one of the highest attendance rates right up to uni, and it’s all free.

                    So price isn’t a problem in education it’s that education is being destroyed for political reasons. But like any public programs it can be changed by democratising forces

                • Psycho Milt …
                  8 January 2017 at 9:34 pm

                  But seriously, (and moving right on along), did you never read to your kids?

                  I qualified as a professional librarian, so well duh. I’m not saying my kids got nothing from me, I’m saying they got more from professionals than they did from this amateur. Are you under the impression amateurs are better than professionals as a general rule, or is it only professional ECE workers who are less useful than amateurs?

                  • Rosemary McDonald …
                    8 January 2017 at 9:58 pm

                    Are you saying that teaching children these skills…

                    form friendships
                    play and explore
                    be courageous and try new things
                    ask questions and have a say
                    meet people outside their whānau
                    learn to relate well to other children in a group
                    sing, dance, and play games
                    think and solve problems
                    take turns, negotiate, and share
                    understand their own feelings and those of others
                    learn about disagreements and how to manage these
                    learn about words, numbers, and how things work
                    have conversations with children and adults
                    begin to understand and make sense of the world around them.

                    ….is best done by those who had to go to school for three years to learn how to teach them, or should they be skills all parents have and can impart to their babies long before they toddle of to be educated by the state?

                    Since when did parenting become a ‘profession’?

                    • Clump_AKA Sam …
                      9 January 2017 at 12:16 am

                      Parents need brakes to. It’s nice to send your kids off to a competent school soo adults can have time to be adults. Otherwise you end up frustrated and that’s known to be a negative learning environment

                    • Psycho Milt …
                      9 January 2017 at 9:31 am

                      …best done by those who had to go to school for three years to learn how to teach them…

                      I’m not saying that. Particularly for the under-twos, the ECE centre my kids went to had staff who hadn’t had any professional education, just a lot of experience. I’m an opponent of 100%-qualified requirements for ECE.

                      Since when did parenting become a ‘profession’?

                      I’m tempted to write “Since we implemented the DPB in 1973,” but that could start a flame war. Obviously parenting is not a profession, but professional childcare equally obviously is one.

    • Draco T Bastard 3.3
      8 January 2017 at 12:41 pm

      …subsidies for parents who choose to stay at home with their pre- schoolers rather than depositing them in state funded day care/early childhood ‘education’.

      I’d prefer to see a UBI and ECE training available for those parents who choose to stay home.

    • Sabine 3.4
      8 January 2017 at 12:42 pm

      clearly we can’t pay women to stay at home and raise their children, don’t they know that it is a ‘labour of love’ and something that ‘women have a calling for’ and that ‘is the fulfillment of womanhood’ and that a ‘goodly women knows her place is being an unpaid home maker and helpmeet and child care provider’.

      No matter that this is what keeps women poor and depended on state help should the ‘provider’ walk out, die, or fall ill.

      seriously and besides won’t somebody please think of the poor blokes that don’t get paid for staying at home and doing nothing much other then a bit of household chores, cooking, cleaning, looking after gods little blessings.

      • garibaldi 3.4.1
        8 January 2017 at 4:04 pm

        When we were kids we were told how great our Country was because mums could stay at home and raise a family. On the other hand we were told how uncivilised the Russians were for putting all their kids in state care whilst the parents were forced to go out and work, and how that was terrible for the kids and the Country.
        Mmmmm.

        • Sabine 3.4.1.1
          8 January 2017 at 4:58 pm

          that might very well be, but

          when you were a kid the mothers that stayed at home would have had a hard time surviving on their own once their provider was gone. Consider as well that if our current government could, the Sole Parent Benefit (used to be the DPB) would be scrapped overnight, cause we all know that it only incentives women into having children that they can’t afford. And for what its worth, I am sure the Widow Key would not have managed on her own without government assistance.

          So to have a women stay at home without pay is not helping her ….the point is that she is completely depended on her ‘provider’. You can see how someone who would like to keep women as ‘chattel’ and children as ‘chattel’ would consider the ex USSR an abomination for not only having women work at across the Industries and have easy accessible abortion, birth control etc. Cause godly and such.

          But then, its all good, cause we are going back to the good old days and the USSR does not exist anymore. Right?

          • garibaldi 3.4.1.1.1
            8 January 2017 at 6:02 pm

            Too true Sabine. I was just pointing out a kind of irony on how things have turned out in “godzone”.

            • JanM 3.4.1.1.1.1
              8 January 2017 at 8:04 pm

              Interesting conversation going on while I was travelling. It’s pretty apparent that no-one has read the amazing NZ ece curriculum Te Whariki which has earned world-wide acclaim or accessed the Competent Children, Competent Learners study – ho hum!

              • Rosemary McDonald …
                8 January 2017 at 8:27 pm

                “It’s pretty apparent that no-one has read the amazing NZ ece curriculum Te Whariki which has earned world-wide acclaim or accessed the Competent Children, Competent Learners study – ho hum!”

                I’m not reading it that way Jan M…I’m reading opinions from both sides if the issue.

                http://parents.education.govt.nz/early-learning/learning-at-an-ece-service/what-your-child-learns-at-ece/#TeWhariki

                Sounds wonderful…but ALL of those skills can be learned from properly engaged parents.

                form friendships
                play and explore
                be courageous and try new things
                ask questions and have a say
                meet people outside their whānau
                learn to relate well to other children in a group
                sing, dance, and play games
                think and solve problems
                take turns, negotiate, and share
                understand their own feelings and those of others
                learn about disagreements and how to manage these
                learn about words, numbers, and how things work
                have conversations with children and adults
                begin to understand and make sense of the world around them.

                • The Fairy Godmother …
                  8 January 2017 at 10:05 pm

                  Exactly, Te Whaariki outlines what a child would receive in a family environment and a good childcare centre tries to be as homelike as possible. Things such as primary caregiving, good ratios, nice environment etc. I don’t believe it does it better than the home environment.

  4. The Chairman 4
    8 January 2017 at 10:19 am

    Seems some smokers have been hit far harder than what’s been announced.

    Some brands have increased 15%.

    With inflation running at around 0.4% and the tax increase is 10%, tobacco companies have some explaining to do.

  5. DH 5
    8 January 2017 at 10:43 am

    a few days ago ropata posted some info on China’s plundering of fisheries in the south Pacific;

    http://thespinoff.co.nz/society/30-03-2016/how-chinas-illegal-fishing-armada-is-plundering-the-south-pacific/

    What surprises me is the lack of news stories and reporting on this. I knew little about it and yet it’s of more relevance to NZ than events Syria or the US election by virtue of it affecting us directly.

    I can remember the furore over Japanese long lining and drift-netting of a few decades ago and the relative silence on this is quite puzzling. Are the media being muzzled or do people just not see this as important any more?

    • mpledger 5.1
      8 January 2017 at 12:41 pm

      The problem is that nowadays people don’t know who to believe. Since they can’t see it with their own eyes, they don’t know what to think on the issue.

      We used to have a media that would find out about stuff like this but I guess this is to expensive to report on. It’s costs too much money to get video of it happening.

  6. The Chairman 6
    8 January 2017 at 11:36 am

    Some here will find this documentary interesting.
    https://youtu.be/Yc7Tk3mwM38?t=2s

    • The Chairman 6.1
      8 January 2017 at 1:17 pm

      Director Alex Gibney on ‘Zero Days’ Documentary, Stuxnet & Cyberweapons
      https://youtu.be/qh-er7BAqVA?t=1s

      • Colonial Viper 6.1.1
        8 January 2017 at 2:24 pm

        The US and Israel are very far advanced in the field of cyberwarfare innovations.

        That’s the irony of the accusations that “Russia did it.”

        • exkiwiforces 6.1.1.1
          8 January 2017 at 6:23 pm

          CV, Russia, China and terrorist groups are miles ahead of the US, Israel and most if not all the other western nations in cyberwarfare. Because they know they can’t match us on the battlefield so use they the indrecit route via cyberwarfare ie to attack/ deny/ destroy/ delay/ exploit/ corrupt and spread false information because they know our life style now increasing built around digital connectivity.

          Why spend billons on nukes why you can infect a nations power supply or Stock market for example by a simple Stuxnet virus or something even more deadly.

          Hell, I still teach the my lads how use a map and compass to move around the bush. To get even more technical, I show them how to use a sun compass and teach astro navigation at night for shits and giggles especially if I’ve got dumb yanks attached to me. The look on the yanks faces is priceless Lol.

          For further reading, Out of the mountains “The coming age of the Urban Guerrilla.
          By David Kilcullen and the New Zealand DWP 2016

          • Colonial Viper 6.1.1.1.1
            8 January 2017 at 7:12 pm

            Greetings exkiwiforces.

            CV, Russia, China and terrorist groups are miles ahead of the US, Israel and most if not all the other western nations in cyberwarfare. Because they know they can’t match us on the battlefield so use they the indrecit route via cyberwarfare

            Your rationale is solid, but my read from the Snowden revelations is that the US Gov has co-opted all major US tech providers like Yahoo, Google, Microsoft, Cisco, IBM, Amazon, the big banks etc. to put in backdoor access for the NSA, as well as compromising internet cables and network hardware world wide.

            In combination with the FVEY surveillance arrangements its a lead that no other nation can match, though of course they do the best they can.

            Whereas Russia may have used some kind of password phishing scam to get Podesta’s emails, the NSA can just open up Google’s gmail databases directly.

            Thank you very much for the reference.

            • exkiwiforces 6.1.1.1.1.1
              9 January 2017 at 12:33 am

              The Snowden papers I’ve seen seem to deal with Intell gathering ie meta data collecting since 9/11 which in the scheme things is small fry and can defeat this very using snail mail or have internal web system like Iran did after the Stuxnet attack there and China has one.

              Russia, China, terrorist groups and their 3rd parties partners are way ahead of us in terms of cyber warfare. Some of the Janes Defence articles and other Defence journals I’ve seen over the years we (the west) really have our head in the sand when it comes to cyber warfare and we (the west) are now playing catch up. Especially what Russia is doing in the Ukraine, the Baltic Nations. No doubt the Russians use the same tactics in the US elections and in the EU. China are doing the same to everyone. On most cases the Russia, China, terrorist groups and their 3rd parties partners were able to pretty much walk in without anymore realizing they were there, in most cases after the event a occur. Very Scary stuff

              If you have 3 COA ( Courses of Action) your Enemy will have 4 COA.

              Your Enemy is more smarter than you are and don’t treat them as a idiot unless you want to lose.

              • Clump_AKA Sam …
                9 January 2017 at 12:53 am

                Maybe it’s because I don’t care about theft of intellectual property why I don’t view China as an enemy. They are brutal but I’m not going to condem them unless they charge over 90 mile beach with tanks. And to be honest, China pays its way in the world and they can handle there piss. If they really want to play Cold War and ramp up a global enterventionist force then fine. I’ll treat them just like America

                • exkiwiforces …
                  9 January 2017 at 1:34 am

                  I’m sorry, but I’ll have to disagree with you about China. I treat China with awful lot suspicion they slowly adopting a global interventionist force posture and no doubt they will take over when the yanks finally go tits up.

                  They have their finger in quite a few counties I’ve visited in the last few years and locals I’ve spoken too distrust Chinese as they don’t buy local instead import their own food, bring in their workers instead employing locals. Hell they even doing it in New Zealand even my dad ranks them up there with the Indian’s, South Koreans and freedom campers as worst tourists to have. He should know he works in the tourists industry.

                  China had a crack at doing the same thing here in Oz during boom, but AWU and CFMEU got wind of it and told them to F off.

                  Please don’t me started on what they do to those Poor Pacific nations and East Timor ATM or in the South China Sea it make my blood boil.

                  I know this is old news, but this just the tip of the iceberg on what they are doing in Africa ATM.
                  VENTURES AFRICA – News from the Kenya Railways Corporation suggests that the China Road & Bridge Corporation will send in 5,000 workers to work on the standard gauge railway.

                  Kenya signed a Sh314.2 billion deal with China for the construction of the Mombassa‐Nairobi railway in May, 2014.

                  The deal is to be executed in phases starting with the standard gauge railway project which is to cover 609.3km from the port of Mombassa to Nairobi.

                  • Clump_AKA Sam …
                    9 January 2017 at 2:17 am

                    China has delightful cuisines. I envy China.

                    Im guessing you would know that All Asian hate the Koreans more.

                    One slight quibble with your news report. The deal is a good deal. Africa owns it so the profits go straight to them. The quality of there engines is yet to be seen. We’ve spoken about 3rd world development for decades so I’m not going to condem China for actually doing it.

                    If I was to condem China it would be on there environmental record. The South China Sea claim is bogus because it’s based on a cartoon Chairmen Mao made up during his interlectual purge. That’s concerning but I wonder if America would swallow it’s pride and return Hawaii to its indigenous inhabitants which I find hard to believe given how vital it is to its strategic concerns. Since 5trillion in trade passes through the South China Sea that will be concerning for China.

                    Paul Buchanan once said, “I wonder how long New Zealander can be a tier 1 strategic partner with America and vital trade relations with China while they’re locked into a dispute.” I want my cake and eat it to so I’ll hold fast to the status quo. But rest assured the moment VT4s role out in anger. I’ll be there.

              • Colonial Viper …
                9 January 2017 at 1:36 am

                https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3owk7vEEOvs

                Bill Binney is smarter than most any of the guys who write about cyberwarfare.

        • YNWA 6.1.1.2
          8 January 2017 at 7:52 pm

          Didn’t they also claim Bin Laden got past the most sophisticated air defence in the world from a cave in Pakistan?

  7. HDCAFriendlyTroll 7
    8 January 2017 at 11:56 am

    Donald Trump, greatest President of America since Reagan says “Hacking did NOT affect election results.”

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/817701436096126977

    Too right, Mr Trump. Regardless of what happened, you would have won anyway. Dems are totally out of touch with the American people and are looking for a scapegoat!

    • HDCAFriendlyTroll 8.1
      8 January 2017 at 1:54 pm

      I know for a fact that Donald Trump, greatest American President since Reagan, is a tremendous Morrissey fan, and regards him as a great, great, American artist.

  10. Draco T Bastard 10
    8 January 2017 at 1:01 pm

    Large Iceberg Poised to Break Off From Antarctica

    While calving is a natural process, it can be driven into overdrive by the warm ocean waters that are lapping away at the ice shelves that fringe Antarctica. When calving events happen too quickly in succession, the glacier-ice shelf system doesn’t have time to rebalance, which can result in glaciers continuing to speed their flow, bringing more and more ice into the oceans and raising sea levels.

    This is what happened with Larsen C’s northern neighbors, Larsen A and B, which collapsed spectacularly in 1995 and 2002, respectively. The glaciers that had fed Larsen B flowed six times faster after its demise.

  11. RedBaronCV 11
    8 January 2017 at 1:12 pm

    So Fonterra is doing feel good ads and Ritchie maybe has a new bromance appearing on them.

    From Stuff:

    “Fonterra chief operating officer in global consumer and foodservice Jacqueline Chow said the campaign was designed to promote the goodness of dairy.

    She said dairy was a part of the solution to malnutrition, but its image in New Zealand was being affected by “dietary fads and special interest groups”.”

    Well it’s great to know that the special interest groups in New Zealand are becoming sufficiently large & influential for Fonterra to actually notice!

    But Fonterra could help themselves:

    – there has been considerable publicity about the disappearance of mainstream Lewis Road organic milk from supermarket shelves (only one supermarket of the six or so around here has held out) Be interesting to see what ComCom does about this and why Fonterra though that this was a good idea at any level. Don’t forget Fonterra bought the Kapiti label (it was a premium brand) about 15 years ago and promptly closed it down. Will they do the same again once they have swamped Lewis Road so we have to go back to the normal rubbish.

    -stop selling stuff in bottles that pretends to be a milk product at milk product prices when it is little more than watered down skim with some additives. I’m not sure how they get away with this under the Fair Trading act. Most of this is simply a milk flavoured drink much as we have juice flavoured drinks

    -and then there are all the dirty water issues and ruined swimming places

    • Sacha 11.1
      8 January 2017 at 4:14 pm

      Our traditional agriculture industry may be totally disrupted over coming years anyway: http://pureadvantage.org/news/2016/11/29/lament-nz-farm/

      • bwaghorn 11.1.1
        8 January 2017 at 7:10 pm

        i bet monsanto and co can’t wait to start turning out your frank’n food.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 11.1.1.1
          8 January 2017 at 7:13 pm

          I bet farming practices are going to be far more disrupted by anthropogenic global warming than by innovation, and the innovation might even help.

          • bwaghorn 11.1.1.1.1
            8 January 2017 at 7:33 pm

            ”and the innovation might even help.” might actually be how a few survive if it gets real rough.
            I was more commenting on how lefties love the concept of frank’n food but the hate big pharma/agrichemical companies , when it’s those very companies that will produce your beaker burger

          • weka 11.1.1.1.2
            8 January 2017 at 8:09 pm

            “I bet farming practices are going to be far more disrupted by anthropogenic global warming than by innovation, and the innovation might even help.”

            That kind of innovation is a driver in the land/water pollution and farming’s contribution to GHG emissions/CC.

            • Draco T Bastard 11.1.1.1.2.1
              8 January 2017 at 10:24 pm

              No it isn’t. Vertical farms don’t have any run off as an example.

              • weka …
                8 January 2017 at 10:41 pm

                I’m talking about currently. And note I didn’t say all innovation.

                • Clump_AKA Sam …
                  8 January 2017 at 11:20 pm

                  I’m not keen on synthetic food because it taste like saw dust. I imagine they have no nutrition value because they can store it longer. But that makes sense from the point of view of commercialised agriculture, after all you’re in it to make money not to feed people. That drives productive agriculture/farmers out, it’s horrible for the rest of the world. We talk about a supposed immigration problem, a lot of the problem is due to designers of our trade pax attempting to destroy agriculture in other countries. Chinese farms are efficient enough but they couldn’t possible justify (for example) dairy intensification because there population is lactose intolerant.

                  There is a movement around lake Taupo wanting to better use dairy farming/forest/water, it’s encouraging, it’s competent, well organised and they’re generating valuable data and they’re making money. It isn’t a massive movement but it proves you can divert growth from dairy intensification to sustainable methods and it’s got a lot to show already.

                  • weka …
                    8 January 2017 at 11:28 pm

                    I’d say there is some nutritional value otherwise it wouldn’t be a food. But I take the point.

                    The biggest issue I see with dairying, even the people that are doing good things, is the focus on export. The whole model is just wrong, from the need for irrigation to the exporting of fertility via milk powder. People are focussed on water quality and run off, but the underlying problem is the model that says we can strip the land to make excess profit and ignore the ecosystem at the same time.

                    Good to hear about Taupō. I know of a few other diary farms around that are doing good things, but the pressure is always there to keep growing.

                    • Clump_AKA Sam …
                      8 January 2017 at 11:50 pm

                      It was a good bet that you could grow tomatoes ect and pass it on to your son but that’s a suckers bet now due to political instability, so we keep doubling and not paying attention. Theirs a notion in economics of externalities which are things you don’t pay attention to when carrying out transactions. That’s to say it’s nice to feed more people but what else are we doing. We know what they’re doing to poison the environment and it makes it harder to produce. It’s outside the capacity of our culture to do something about it so solutions have to be imposed on the industry.

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      9 January 2017 at 2:24 am

                      People are focussed on water quality and run off, but the underlying problem is the model that says we can strip the land to make excess profit and ignore the ecosystem at the same time.

                      Yep. People don’t understand that running an economy always costs in resources. To do one thing requires the removal of resources to do another. Intensified farming takes away resources from the environment.

                      Remember John Key saying something like water going into the sea was wasted?

                      That’s how these capitalists see it. If a resource isn’t being used to make them richer then it’s wasted. Keeping a healthy environment or a healthy society doesn’t factor into their thinking and so both have resources removed from them to boost profit for the few.

        • Andre 11.1.1.2
          8 January 2017 at 7:18 pm

          I can’t wait to start eating it. Then I’ll never feel guilty about Bessie ever again.

  12. RedBaronCV 12
    8 January 2017 at 1:24 pm

    And Hollywood thinks we are a hot bed of piracy. Hahaha.
    Rather over-egging it given our 4 million of population compared to the US 340 million. I’d say there is no comparison the US – we’d lose every time.

  13. Andre 13
    8 January 2017 at 3:51 pm

    Obama gives his final address with his anger translator in attendance…

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2017/01/06/key-peele-s-obama-and-luther-roast-pussy-grabber-trump.html

    … and Keith Olbermann has a point for Trump supporters to ponder.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/keith-olbermann-trump-supporters_us_586f0eede4b02b5f858825ca

  14. Fisiani 14
    8 January 2017 at 5:07 pm

    What have the Left done in the last month to change votes? nothing. That’s why the summer BBQs talk about cricket and not about politics. There will never be another Labour government.

    • rod 14.1
      8 January 2017 at 5:27 pm

      I didn’t know BBQs could talk, oh sorry, your probably pissed, up there on Planet Key.

      • Sacha 14.1.1
        8 January 2017 at 8:36 pm

        Some these days are programmed to offer suggestions like: “Fisiani, I want you to try those new cricket patties from Canada. Yummy alternative protein. No slave labour, honest.”

        The rest is but a fevered dream ..

    • Muttonbird 14.2
      8 January 2017 at 5:30 pm

      The Right have done it all for them. Key took off like a scolded dog after the humiliating Mt Roskill defeat, and they picked the morally corrupt Bill 21% English as his replacement.

    • Colonial Viper 14.3
      8 January 2017 at 5:55 pm

      There will never be another Labour government.

      Correct. But there may be what they term a “Labour-led Government” which in reality will only be 3/5 Labour, and 2/5 other parties.

      • Muttonbird 14.3.1
        8 January 2017 at 8:55 pm

        And you will do everything in your limited, anti-worker, anti-Kiwi invective to prevent that eventuality.

        Seriously. If you spent half the time you do dribbling over US politics on NZ social outcomes then you might claim to be helping the disenfranchised of this country.

        Twyford is right. The Asian elite do not care about this country.

        • Colonial Viper 14.3.1.1
          8 January 2017 at 9:55 pm

          Twyford is a careerist dickhead who goes wherever the political wind is blowing. If he thinks anti-asian sentiment is the flavour of the month, that’s where he will go, and repeaters like you will spout it out as wisdom.

          So much for lefty respect of cultural and ethnic diversity. Just more insincerity.

          • Muttonbird 14.3.1.1.1
            8 January 2017 at 11:04 pm

            What a self centred scum bag you are. I thought you were self centred before but you have cemented it here in your stupid, Trumptastic way.

            Are you in Auckland? No, you’re not and as such you know nothing about the place. You judge Twyford but I’m sure you have never met him and so know nothing about his call for accurate information about the Asian spend in Auckland.

            What really confuses me is that you ruptured an arsehole about Twyford in your own fucking county but have no issue about Trump in his.

            Idiot.

            • Colonial Viper 14.3.1.1.1.1
              8 January 2017 at 11:18 pm

              You’re going to leap to Twyford’s defence? Figures. BTW I lived in Auckland for several years. Rodney Hide’s electorate. A lovely city to be 1600km away from.

              • Muttonbird …
                8 January 2017 at 11:26 pm

                Twyford doesn’t need defending in any sense.

                Jesus Christ, no wonder they threw you out of the Labour Party. You are a real cunt.

                • McFlock …
                  8 January 2017 at 11:57 pm

                  MB,

                  While I find myself agreeing with most of the sentiments and even some of the expressions you have for CV, I fear that expressing them so bluntly will only result in you picking up a ban while he continues to liberally sprinkle the site with his bullshit.

  15. Muttonbird 15
    8 January 2017 at 5:22 pm

    The so-called democratic Israelis are not shy of interfering with other countries democracies when it suits them. The embassy is distancing itself from the comments by one of its own but you can bet senior political officer Masot’s opinion is reflective of the entire Israeli authority.

    Israel’s ambassador to the UK has apologised after a senior member of his staff was secretly filmed saying he wanted to “take down” Foreign Office Minister Sir Alan Duncan.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/world/321989/israel's-ambassador-sorry-over-'take-down'-comment

  16. Andre 16
    8 January 2017 at 5:27 pm

    Interesting (scary) speculation on how the relationship between Trump and the intelligence agencies might play out. With a useful reminder that the WMD thing was more about Bush and his senior official misrepresenting info than the agencies giving them bad intel.

    http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/313123-intel-experts-worry-trump-will-go-rogue

  18. Muttonbird 18
    8 January 2017 at 7:40 pm

    Getting back to New Zealand for a moment, Greenpeace wins big against the dairy industry.

    This sort of ruling is important for New Zealand rivers because Dairy NZ, Fonterra, and the number 8 wire farmers are no longer allowed to protest against the truth. The truth being that our waterways are under threat.

    “What we’re seeing is that dairy industry is doing everything they can to try and confuse people about water pollution but the facts are the facts and ordinary New Zealanders are starting to see that.”

    – Russell Norman

    http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2017/01/greenpeace-trumps-dairy-industry-with-river-pollution-ad-ruling.html

    The Greens should own this issue and it should be theirs as an election platform along with renters rights. Labour should focus on housing affordability and worker’s rights. NZ First should focus on immigration concerns. They should all be allowed to comment on lack of infrastructure and the underfunding of social services.

    These parties and the people who vote for these parties all want the government changed for the good of the whole country. Tasks need to be delegated.

    • Sacha 18.1
      8 January 2017 at 8:33 pm

      I doubt they need that much deliberate division of their labours.

      • Muttonbird 18.1.1
        8 January 2017 at 8:44 pm

        I think they do.

        A coalition government in waiting should have a devolution of tasks, and I think it would help individuals aligned with particular concerns to be able to devote their energies to that concern while at the same time not attacking others’ concerns.

        In short, each party in the coalition would own their ground but also have common ground.

        • Sacha 18.1.1.1
          8 January 2017 at 9:04 pm

          The Greens have always said environment, society and economy are indivisible. Labour likewise has policies in all 3 areas. Winston First have usually been a thing unto themselves.

          • Muttonbird 18.1.1.1.1
            8 January 2017 at 9:11 pm

            I don’t like the police numbers thing being associated with Labour or Green. Clearly it is the penny pinching current government which has presided over the increase in volume crime in this country but the stick part should be delegated to NZ first.

            Another ally needs to drive this.

    • weka 19.1
      8 January 2017 at 8:12 pm

      Fearmongering. That poll shows people’s fears, not whether war is likely or not. It also appears to be showing that the countries where people are happiest have less people concerned about war.

      • NewsFlash 19.1.1
        8 January 2017 at 8:21 pm

        Yes, and very small sample, 9000 participants across 9 western countries, 1000 per country.

        The interesting part is who is frightened of who.

  20. swordfish 20
    8 January 2017 at 9:01 pm

    Joyzus !!! … Farrar/ Slater / other prominent Tory shills must be absolutely pissing themselves with glee

    You see, there’s a little event coming up in New Zealand politics later this year (maybe even sooner than we think, who knows ?). It’s called … wait for it …
    … the 2017 New Zealand General Election.

    And what does the premier Left-leaning forum for the New Zealand labour movement do ? – increasingly tears itself apart, … first during the US Presidential Election campaign late last year, then over the rights and wrongs of Superpower involvement in Syria, and now over allegations of Russian interference in the US Presidential Election.

    Authors happily abusing each other, expletives being thrown about with wild abandon, regular commenters abusing authors and vice versa, … basically a whole lot of people stridently crossing the line from bona fide robust debate to bitter and waspish personal insults, outright contempt and the determination to win their petty little battles no matter what the long-term cost.

    Now the last thing I want to sound like here is some sort of horrendous touchy-feely New Age Middle-Class Hand-Wringing Liberal Hippy “Facilitator”… BUT … the kind of personal abuse that’s been going on almost inevitably ends up emotionally wounding people (even when they’re too proud to admit it), in turn generating long-term grudges and resentment, if not immediate ruptures (with the potential for authors to suddenly pack their up bags and fuck the fuck off, never to be heard of again).

    Not something we necessarily need in Election Year … especially when we’re up against ruthless, power-hungry, tightly disciplined opponents.

    Despite being firmly in that broad camp I associate with Bill, CV, Morrissey, Olwyn, Puddleglum and various others on these contentious issues – and despite having occasionally thrown a few snide little grenades into the conversation myself – from now on I’m going to discipline myself to avoid any involvement in these specific debates.

    Who knows, might be in the Left’s long-term interests if others consider doing likewise.

    Or … to put it all another way … Do we always have to live up to the Life of Brian sketch ?
    I mean, every single fucking time ?

    • Muttonbird 20.1
      8 January 2017 at 9:23 pm

      Sword. A very good point you have raised and I’ve also been concerned about it.

      There are some contributors who are all out for themselves, and there are some contributors who are trying to help the disenfranchised.

      It is my hope that those posting on ego might stop for a moment to think about people less fortunate than themselves.

      • Colonial Viper 20.1.1
        8 January 2017 at 9:50 pm

        Hey great polarising comment there. Which camp do you put yourself in then?

        • Muttonbird 20.1.1.1
          8 January 2017 at 10:46 pm

          I’m trying to help NZ communities. You, however, are some sort of egomaniac and retarded keyboard hack who has no empathetic thought for anyone but yourself and this proof is born by the amount of time you spent on USA threads.

    • BM 20.2
      8 January 2017 at 9:37 pm

      It amuses me greatly how a group of people who put so much weight into the concept of the collective, fight to the death over such irrelevant micro issues.

      Know it all, never can see another view point egotists will always be the Achilles heel of the left.

      • Clump_AKA Sam 20.2.1
        8 January 2017 at 9:43 pm

        There are days you have to man up and say you’re wrong but not today. Diluting debate isn’t my style

      • Muttonbird 20.2.2
        8 January 2017 at 9:46 pm

        We know you want your point of view heard, RWNJ, but community based activists have other things on their mind…

    • Sacha 20.3
      8 January 2017 at 9:46 pm

      “the kind of personal abuse that’s been going on almost inevitably ends up emotionally wounding people (even when they’re too proud to admit it), in turn generating long-term grudges and resentment”

      Quite. If left-leaning citizens cannot behave like grown-ups in our own discussion spaces, why would anybody vote for the organisations we champion?

      • Muttonbird 20.3.1
        8 January 2017 at 9:49 pm

        I’d say it’s because there are genuine anti-left people posting on the standard. There are very dumb people like CV taking up a lot of bandwidth.

      • Chris 20.3.2
        9 January 2017 at 4:10 am

        The problems Labour faces might go a tad wider than that.

    • bwaghorn 20.4
      8 January 2017 at 9:47 pm

      The main thing those endless circle jerks over trump and russia etc cause is that they turn off readers new and old.

    • NewsFlash 20.5
      8 January 2017 at 10:41 pm

      Hey swordfish, I agree with most of your comments, you make a very good point, but can I ask you if you honestly believe that any thing said or stated in this forum will have any influence what so ever over the outcome of the up coming election? My guess is NO.

      Trying to change the behaviour of “old men stuck in a mind set” is the same as pissing into the wind.

      • weka 20.5.1
        8 January 2017 at 10:48 pm

        It’s the largest left wing blog in NZ. The political blogosphere plays a part in the election cycle both directly, via the MSM, and via activism. Of course the website has influence. Whether we make good use of that influence is another matter.

    • weka 20.6
      8 January 2017 at 10:50 pm

      Well said Swordfish.

      I’m also wanting to focus on other areas so if you or anyone wants to see different content and hopefully different discussion, feel free to put forward ideas.

      • The decrypter 20.6.1
        8 January 2017 at 11:27 pm

        Ok,hows about moving all mad scientist stuff to a battle ground where they can scratch each others eyes out –not where mortals like me get confused by it all.

        • weka 20.6.1.1
          8 January 2017 at 11:31 pm

          Having set up spaces for US election conversations during the election, and then diverting people there I can say it’s a lot of work. If people want to do what they did today, it’s pretty hard to stop them. We can of course set up different kinds of conversations if people want that, but whenever I offer that I generally don’t get too many suggestions.

    • mickysavage 20.7
      8 January 2017 at 11:01 pm

      Thanks SF.

      Two solutions:

      1. Some new authors. I would be happy to arrange a login for you because your poll analysis is second to none.
      2. The fights we have had over US politics is rather difficult. Some of us prefer to pull our fingernails out than support Trump. But that does not sit with others.

      Author wise we are now fine. I agree to the onward and upward proposal.

      • Olwyn 20.7.1
        9 January 2017 at 10:13 am

        Your second point is a bit like Wittgenstein’s duck-rabbit. Some see an orange greed monster at the helm of a superpower, others see a very compromised left with all the machinery of power behind it finally getting its comeuppance. Broadly speaking, both sides seem to respect Bernie Sanders, Jeremy Corbyn and Helen Kelly – perhaps we need to bear that touchstone in mind.

        • Andre 20.7.1.1
          9 January 2017 at 10:27 am

          As one of the more vocal people arguing for Clinton here (who would have much preferred Bernie, O’Malley, or a long list of others that didn’t put their hand up), I’m quite happy to see compromised Democrat elites getting their comeuppance.

          But the price is that many real, vulnerable people really are going to get damaged over the next few years by the orange greed monster. To a far greater extent than they would be under the compromised Dems. With no guarantee that the next cohort of Democrat elites will be less compromised. To me, that damage to the vulnerable is way way too high a price to pay for the temporary satisfaction of kicking elites who are already well-insulated from any potential pain.

          • Olwyn 20.7.1.1.1
            9 January 2017 at 10:38 am

            Well the election has been and gone and most of us here didn’t have a vote in it. The result is what it is. In that respect Bernie Sanders has the right idea – to regroup, support what is good and fiercely oppose what is bad.

        • KJT 20.7.1.2
          9 January 2017 at 10:29 am

          I see both actually.

          I can understand the impulse to throw a grenade at a comfortable two party system of political elitists, and I abhor the Democratic parties alignment with imperialist corporations, while, at the same time, I am horrified by Trump..

          The election of Trump may be for the best in the end.
          A definable enemy is easier to fight than someone who pretends to be on our side, but really isn’t. Like the US Democrats and “third way” Labour parties.

    • mauī 20.8
      9 January 2017 at 6:30 am

      I think it’s appropriate that this all plays out on here. The battle of the collapsing media and political establishment and those more tied up within it and those that aren’t.