Open mike 09/01/2024

68 comments on “Open mike 09/01/2024 ”

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1. Muttonbird 1

   7 January 2024 at 1:46 pm

   Tufton Street in London is a synonymous descriptor for right wing think tanks and lobby groups close to the Conservative government. Particularly 55 Tufton Street, which houses a who's who of Eurosceptics, Brexiteers, libertarians, fossil fuel lobby groups, climate change deniers, anti-immigration groups and interestingly (or not), the LGB Alliance.

   Birds of a feather flock together.

   [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]
   
   • Robert Guyton 1.1

     7 January 2024 at 3:15 pm

     Nasty snots.
   • Molly 1.2

     8 January 2024 at 8:12 am

     Organisations rent premises in shared buildings. Hardly a headliner.

     "…interestingly (or not), the LGB Alliance."

     Why – and how – is that interesting?
     • weka 1.2.1

       8 January 2024 at 7:31 pm

       it's interesting because it's a TRA stick to beat them with. Brilliant example from MB.
   • Drowsy M. Kram 1.3

     8 January 2024 at 10:58 am

     The LGB alliance has stated "the office [at 55 Tufton Street] was chosen because it's handy, flexible, and that it became available at the right time".

     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGB_Alliance#Media_coverage_and_criticism
     • Muttonbird 1.3.1

       9 January 2024 at 10:22 am

       Yeah, it's all just a coincidence:

       “I can tell you we’ve rented a single large room that is ideal for our purposes. The office is fantastically well-served In terms of transport links. In addition, we spend a lot of time trying to make our case to politicians and the office is just a few minutes’ walk from the Houses of Parliament.

       – Kate Barker, Managing Director LGB Alliance

       As equalities secretary, Liz Truss is reported to have had regular meetings at 55 Tufton Street with groups such as the IEA. The UK government staged a significant U-turn on its attitude towards progressing LGBTQIA+ rights during the same period, culminating in a backpedal on Gender Recognition Act reform and the collapse of the #SafeToBeMe2022 event earlier this year.

       Truss’s second-in-command at the time, Kemi Badenoch, has now taken on the post. She too has links to Tufton Street via the Cato Institute and her former adviser Alex Morton, who went on to become head of policy at the Centre for Policy Studies and subsequently the IEA’s director of strategy.

       This is why I mentioned it. Pertaining to the influence of right wing think tanks which is the purpose of the post, the LGB Alliance is a highly political lobby group now housed the the very building synonymous with far right/libertarian lobby groups, and as such should not be immune from scrutiny and criticism.

       https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/5050/lgb-alliance-55-tufton-street-think-tanks/
   • SPC 1.4

     8 January 2024 at 4:47 pm

     It's interesting that it is so hard to discern if any organisation not seen as aligned with political right has a place there.
   • weka 1.5

     8 January 2024 at 7:30 pm

     Birds of a feather flock together.

     Aye, some lefties still don't get that politicised lesbians will flock with the people who support their rights. That's probably not you.

     Do you believe that lesbians should date males who have socially but not surgically transitioned to identifying as female. If you can't answer that with an unequivocal no, then you really are incapable of why LGBA might not GAF about who is in the building with them.

     I don't know if the LGBA are RW (it would surprise me if they were positionally), or politically naive, or just working with what they've got.

     Myself, if I was running such an organisation, no way would I have made that choice. But I'm a leftie. Many people aren't and increasing numbers used to be but are no longer. If the LGBA are getting assistance from other Grafton St tenants, maybe that's because they can't get it from the left (and the right is taking full advantage of that, duh).

     Which just brings us back to the lady dick question, and why some lefties still think there is any kind of respect for the position that lesbians should like lady dick. Do you really think lesbians and gays are going to care about the opinions of lefties with such a strong degree of homophobia?
     • roblogic 1.5.1

       8 January 2024 at 9:14 pm

       I think many in the LGBA are lifelong lefties who have been vilified and rejected because they maintain the orthodox view of biology that was unchallenged across time and culture until a strange movement took hold of the narrative in the last 10 years. Here's one of them:

       I don't want the far left, or the new left, I want the old left.

       Working people paid properly for their time, their housing secure, their kids educated to the highest standard, their food nutritious, their communities maintained.

       A left that values & respects the working class

       https://x.com/Serena_Partrick/status/1743697222703657010?s=20
       • weka 1.5.1.1

         8 January 2024 at 10:47 pm

         We're a very long way from home now. I like Serena's twitter. While GC people like KJK are obviously conservative and in her case, ex-swing voter (or maybe she still is), I haven't seen anything obvious like that with LGBA. I would guess you are right in that there's a core of old left. Probably people from across the spectrum. The new politics is mixed, and not partisan. Trad lefties can't get their head around it, but we know that Māori have their own politics, so why not LGB, or women.
         • Belladonna 1.5.1.1.1

           9 January 2024 at 11:11 am

           Trad lefties can't get their head around it

           Have seen this play out in my own family. Family member who is lesbian and a hard-left voter all her life, highly supportive and activist in the 2017 campaign for Ardern. Did not vote in the last election. She couldn't stomach any of the left parties, given their (in her eyes) abandonment of LG people in favour of trans; and couldn't square it with her conscience to vote right.

           [Please note, in common with most urban liberal gay people, she is in no way 'anti-trans' – and has very long-standing friendships with many in the trans community – but believes that women's spaces (and lesbian relationships) need to be for women.]

           However, if there was a centrist party which supported LG in an upcoming election – I wouldn't be surprised to see her voting for them….
           • weka 1.5.1.1.1.1

             9 January 2024 at 11:38 am

             thanks, that's a good explanation.

             What some lefties seem to be missing is that a) people who used to vote left or centre left are starting to hate the left and b) the right are laughing all the way to the bank on this one and are very good at making use of it.
     • Muttonbird 1.5.2

       9 January 2024 at 10:26 am

       You've called me a misogynist and a homophobe in recent weeks. I don't care much but they are fairly direct accusations against a commenter.

       I’m not getting into the chicks with dicks obsession because that is certainly prejudicial, demeaning, othering, harmful speech.
       • weka 1.5.2.1

         9 January 2024 at 11:27 am

         In fact, I didn't call you a [insert prejudice] last time, I pointed out to you the shortcomings of political slur name calling. You appear to not have grasped this and are doing it again.

         So now I will directly call you a homophobe. I asked if you believe that lesbians should have to include males in their dating pool, you have responded by saying you're not getting into it, which I will take as an admission that you are ok with lesbians being told to date males.

         That’s lesbophobic. It’s just an updated version of blokes saying lesbians just need a proper shag (by a bloke), and it’s based in the position that lesbians don’t get body autonomy and sovereignty but men do. It’s classic, core patriarchy, and it’s rape culture, so yeah, you’re a misogynist too.

         You also threw in a TRA diverting cliche about GCFs – that the political arguments we make are about penile obsession. Heard it all before mate, all very Freud when really women just want our bodies and our politics to be respected.

         edited.
         • weka 1.5.2.1.1

           9 January 2024 at 11:35 am

           and while I'm here, let me just spell it out some more.

           Historically lesbians have been raped by men because 'lesbians just need a good shag'. That still happens, and it’s part of het bloke culture. ie heterosexual male culture sanctions this.

           I've listened to young lesbians talk about what it's been like in LGBTQI+ communities where older males who have transitioned to being a trans woman 'mentor' them, and then after a while the pressure to be sexual arrives.

           To make that very clear, the young women are homosexual, and the TW are male heterosexuals.

           When women object to this they are told they are bigots, and ostracised in via peer pressure. It's horrible, disgusting, and the lefties who support this and/or are in denial that it is happening should be ashamed of themselves.

           You also can't then wonder why so many are abandoning the left. Did you really think women would roll over and see our rights destroyed and rape culture entrenched via liberal politics?
   • Corey 1.6

     10 January 2024 at 1:28 pm

     So what? Plenty of left wing orgs, mps and activists share buildings with or rent from right wing outlets.

     Activists who don't like the Lgb alliance aren't going to win people over by attacking them.

     As a gay man, there is a large and ever increasing number of lesbians and gay men all over the world who are extremely uncomfortable with being connected with Trans activists and want to split from a movement that share wildly different goals to lesbians and gays.

     It's a lot closer to a 50/50 split than many trans activists are willing to admit because most gay and lesbian people who feel this way stay silent because they fear being ostracized, but in private…

     Gays and lesbians have had cis hetero women and men utterly highjack our bars, our apps and our culture.

     Lesbians and gays are constantly being told now by progressives that our sexuality is "genital preference" that we'd like the genitals of the opposite sex if we only gave them a chance, that we are sexual racists for not sleeping with trans people, that our same sex spaces must be open to members with genitalia of the opposite sex and calling us same gender attracted, which is why you hear more and more l and gs refer to themselves as homosexual.

     We've had our history rewritten by progressives saying that trans activists threw the first brick at stone wall (as someone whose been to stonewall it's untrue and the trans person they say did it openly states she wasn't even there)

     Gay and lesbian culture survived it being illegal for millenia and it will survive this new homophobic progressive form of conversion therapy.

     LGBT acceptance has been trending down for the first time in decades for the four years because of trans activists, we're not going back in the closet.

     You're not gonna win over gays and lesbians by calling us right wing for liking the same sex.

     The left needs to stop attacking people it disagrees with and start actually trying to win over voters the left have already lost the youth vote (Trump now wins with young voters in all recent polling) we've lost working class people of every race and we are starting to even lose lesbians and gays… The left are running out of voters to alienate…

     Maybe it's time the left stopped telling people how to live their lives and attacking people for wrong think and start focusing on economically making people's lives better because identity politics ain't never gonna win the left another election.
     • Muttonbird 1.6.1

       10 January 2024 at 2:27 pm

       So what? Plenty of left wing orgs, mps and activists share buildings with or rent from right wing outlets.

       Really? Not at 55 Tufton St, I expect.

       A movement that share wildly different goals to lesbians and gays.

       What goals are those, to live without prejudice, harassment, discrimination and with dignity. Seems like you share the same goals…

       Gays and lesbians have had cis hetero women and men utterly highjack our bars, our apps and our culture.

       What is with the us and them vibe? You complain about activists ostracising people yet create this ugly division between gay people and heterosexual people. You can't exclude people from bars.

       I said before I'm not going to get into people pants on this because it really is none of my business. Warfare within the LGBT community is something for that community to sort out. There are laws against harassment, online or otherwise, based on sexual preference, I believe, and anyone breaking those laws should be held accountable.

       Gay and lesbian culture survived it being illegal for millenia and it will survive this new homophobic progressive form of conversion therapy.

       Restricting or banning identity, therapy, education and support for transgender people is a road which leads directly to it being made illegal.

       LGBT acceptance has been trending down for the first time in decades for the four years because of trans activists, we're not going back in the closet.

       On the conservative right, possibly. They have never accepted transgender people anyway.

       The rest is just right wing talking points, but following your post history you have always been highly critical of progressive politics, so no surprise there.

       The left will do what they always do, empathise with and support those marginalised for things they have no control over and try to provide an environment for everyone to live in healthy, safe and dignified lives, notwithstanding they don't always hit those targets, and sometimes don’t even get close.
2. millsy 2

   8 January 2024 at 9:22 pm

   LGB Alliance hold a number of views that could be interpreted as socially conservative.

   Exhibit A: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGB_Alliance#Views

   The founder also wants LGBTQ clubs at school banned:

   https://www.thepinknews.com/2020/01/23/lgb-alliance-co-founder-malcolm-clark-predatory-gay-teachers-anti-gay/

   [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]
   
   • weka 2.1

     8 January 2024 at 10:41 pm

     From exhibit A:

     1. Lesbians are in danger of becoming extinct because of the cultural and social pressure to transition.
     2. Lesbians don't have penises
     3. Homosexuality is same sex attraction, not same gender identity attraction.
     4. Strongly supports the historic repealing of anti-homosexuality legislation, and strongly supports the introduction of same sex marriage
     5. Opposes conversion therapy where gays and lesbians are transitioned to the opposite sex
     6. Opposes the affirmation only approach that leads to the transitioning of children who would otherwise grow up to be lesbian or gay.

     Now tell me millsy, which of those positions is conservative (and please explain your thinking)
     • millsy 2.1.1

       9 January 2024 at 1:32 am

       Weka..

       As I said above:

       The founder also wants LGBTQ clubs at school banned:

       https://www.thepinknews.com/2020/01/23/lgb-alliance-co-founder-malcolm-clark-predatory-gay-teachers-anti-gay/

       I dont think anyone who call themselves socially liberal or left, can argue from any position that LGBT support networks in schools should be broken up.
       • weka 2.1.1.1

         9 January 2024 at 10:47 am

         sweet, so your exhibit A doesn't in fact demonstrate your claim that the LGBA are socially conservative. You apparently just made that up.

         Let's look at Exhibit B.

         The first thing I'll point out is that Pink News doesn't cite primary sources and in fact goes out of its way to avoid linking people to the original material. For instance, when they say,

         Clark’s inflammatory anti-gay comments were made in an online discussion about an LGB Alliance supporter being kicked out of an LGBT+ nightclub in Glasgow for refusing to reverse her t-shirt bearing the group’s slogan.

         They don't link to that online discussion, so we have no easy way of knowing the context.

         That approach means PN are basically a propaganda machine. You can compare to the approach on TS, where we expect links and back up to mean something.
       • Visubversa 2.1.1.2

         9 January 2024 at 12:45 pm

         Oh yes we can very much support supposed LGBT "support groups" in schools from being removed from the position where they deny the very existence of same sex attraction, and influence young people to believe that humans can change sex and that their adolescent concerns and problems can be solved with chemical castration and/or sterilising and mutilating surgery.

         LGB is about same sex attraction but we are force teamed with a bunch of straight people whose interests are not ours and in many cases are incompatible with our interests.
       • Molly 2.1.1.3

         11 January 2024 at 10:57 am

         "The founder also wants LGBTQ clubs at school banned.."

         Why would you think that is the case?

         Let's see what Malcolm Clark actually wrote, and discuss whether his concerns are warranted or can be mitigated:

         
         • SPC 2.1.1.3.1

           11 January 2024 at 11:16 am

           Yeah I noted that, not seeing the point is not a policy of banning.

           His opine of a bygone era of teachers hitting on pupils, and teens with a known same sex identity being at greater risk so not supporting LGBT, is in fact an argument against LGB groups.
           • Molly 2.1.1.3.1.1

             11 January 2024 at 11:28 am

             He is raising safeguarding issues, and relating how he recognised the safeguarding failures in his own school life.

             There is also a discussion to be had around sexual orientation being asked to be considered by pre-pubescent children – ie. at primary school. Many children will understand the beginnings of attraction, but will not relate this to sexual activity at this age, unless introduced to this adult perspective.

             The discussion point in this case, is whether it is harmful to children to be prematurely exposed to such considerations or discussions.

             There have also been recent safeguarding failures reported by clubs, that have allowed predatory and exploitative behaviour to occur:

             https://reduxx.info/trans-teacher-placed-on-indefinite-leave-after-disturbing-videos-surface/

             https://reduxx.info/scottish-lgbti-police-association-fundraising-for-youth-charity-under-investigation-for-historic-child-abuses/

             So then the question becomes: in a time of societal acceptance are these clubs necessary, or do they cement the othering of those with homosexual orientations, and allow for exploitation at a time of exploration, growth and personal understanding of self (exacerbated by hormone fluctuations)?

             Are they conducted with strict adherence to gold standard safeguarding vetting and practices?
3. millsy 3

   9 January 2024 at 1:33 am

   The so-called LGBT Alliance want LGBT support groups in schools broken up.

   [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]
   

   [please provide evidence for this assertion. Evidence here means all of these:

   1. a link that contains the evidence (and no, you can’t use Pink News, see my comments elsewhere on this).
      1. supporting quotes.
      2. explanations for why you think the links/quotes support your assertion.

   Or, you can retract the assertion and agree that from now on you will provide evidence for such assertions, up front, at the time you make the comment.

   I’m also going to remind you of why you were banned this time last year for a whole year. This is partly about you perpetually running fact free lines on TS, and also because it ended up taking a lot of moderator time (not just me and not just on this topic). The is a clear pattern of behaviour and what you might not know is that the mods have even less patience now than a year ago.

   https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-07-01-2023/#comment-1929460

   I see another mod also also talked to you in the brief few days you have been back from your ban. If you do actually want to be here to take the government to task, I suggest you stick to that, but even with that you still need to abide by the above regarding evidence and assertions. I won’t be asking again. – weka]
   • roblogic 3.1

     9 January 2024 at 8:34 am

     That’s a fairly random and unreferenced accusation. Do you feel that any group in sparkly colours should be given a free pass at the school gates?
   • weka 3.2

     9 January 2024 at 11:06 am

     mod note.
   • weka 3.3

     9 January 2024 at 11:22 am

     and you're in premod until this is resolved. I won't be letting any other comments through, and if you don't follow the above instructions and instead muck me around, I will just ban you again to save myself the time.
   • millsy 3.4

     9 January 2024 at 2:18 pm

     I retract the allegations.
   • millsy 3.5

     9 January 2024 at 3:00 pm

     …and I agree to post evidence in future.
4. Morrissey 4

   9 January 2024 at 7:50 am

   "Let's give her a call…"

   Washington Post propagandist Elizabeth Dwoskin has waded into a situation way beyond her competence. She's been telling lies about real journalists. One of them, Max Blumenthal, decided to call her live, on air. She did not perform well….
5. Anne 5

   9 January 2024 at 9:08 am

   Maggie Barry being her usual entitled self despite her protestations to the contrary:

   https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/01/07/maggie-barry-misunderstanding-led-to-police-being-called-to-flight/
   • Robert Guyton 5.1

     9 January 2024 at 9:38 am

     2 truths going head-to-head! 🙂
   • Peter 5.2

     9 January 2024 at 3:16 pm

     There could be the start to a little like minded, like operating club – she might start one. Maggie and Gaurav Sharma. If anyone besides me remembers who he is.

     https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/former-politician-maggie-barry-denies-abusing-air-new-zealand-crew-member/57QYCYGG7VFXDHQHQKTZ2V2CBI/
   • Morrissey 5.3

     9 January 2024 at 4:56 pm

     Hilarious. Shades of that absurd old fool Sir Robert Jones being kicked off a plane after he refused to follow seatbelt procedure.
     • Robert Guyton 5.3.1

       9 January 2024 at 8:22 pm

       Rules?

       RULES?

       Pour moi?
     • Anne 5.3.2

       9 January 2024 at 8:25 pm

       With his usual puckish humour, here is David Slack's take on the matter:

       DON’T YOU HATE IT ON AN AIR NZ FLIGHT when you go to say:
       Oh sorry, I didn’t realise I needed to take this off, I’ll do it right now
       and it somehow comes out as something that causes a 20-minute flight delay and requires the cops to sort it all out?

       You will notice this picture is not well coloured-in.

       What we have here is not so much a they-said/she-said situation as a they-diplomatically-said-not-much/Maggie-Barry-issued-a-baffling-press-statement situation.

       It was no worries she breezily says—and I’m paraphrasing here to make it shorter—the silly Air NZ people for whom I have the utmost respect seemed to have got hold of the wrong idea and once I understood what the silly girl was trying to tell me to do, I did it, and very soon we were up up and away with the useful assistance of His Majesty’s police force.

       See sidebar "More than a Fielding” for whole post".
6. Adrian Thornton 6

   9 January 2024 at 9:24 am

   Here is a perfect example of why the West has finally (and totally) lost what ever tattered remains of it's supposed 'moral high ground' in the arena of world geo-politics….and probably why the story of the most televised genocide in history that was published here on The Standard yesterday, only got 17 comments….compare the amount of comments that the war in Ukraine got for over a year on TS, with the Liberal class, amped up by their news feeds, which had them running around with their hair on fire…holy hell, the Liberal class are just so fucking pliable and so willfully ignorant, that it even catches an old cynic like me out sometimes……

   All CNN Gaza Coverage Seen by Bureau Monitored by IDF Before Publication

   "All reporters in Israel must sign an agreement to abide by such rules set by the IDF, and Israel has reportedly censored thousands of news stories since the beginning of the current massacre in Gaza"

   bbc-bias …An indepth report on the obvious BBC bias re; Gaza genocide.

   And yet I can guarantee you, that while it will be without doubt, still acceptable to use both these compromised sources for any geo-political story on TS going forward, if any one were to use RT as a source in a debate here, it would be instantly dismissed out of hand….without even the slightest thought of double standards….but then as we have witnessed with dismay, the Liberal class and their media have been torturing and upending logic and truth so regularly over the last decade, why would they see a problem…of course they don't…up is down, black is white…got it.

   John Pilger: Silencing the Lambs: How Propaganda Works
   https://consortiumnews.com/
   “Leni Riefenstahl said her epic films glorifying the Nazis depended on a “submissive void” in the German public. This is how propaganda is done. “
   • SPC 6.1

     9 January 2024 at 10:48 am

     I don't think the number of comments angle hunts well – there was only 10 on Open Mike..
     • Belladonna 6.1.1

       9 January 2024 at 11:15 am

       I'd also think that much the same is happening over the Gaza situation on TS as happened over Ukraine.

       The same talking points being repeated, and countered, and neither 'side' convincing the other. My observation is that many commentators have just stopped engaging.
       • Adrian Thornton 6.1.1.1

         9 January 2024 at 3:09 pm

         "The same talking points being repeated, and countered, and neither 'side' convincing the other. My observation is that many commentators have just stopped engaging"….Yeah you are probably right, I know have mostly given up on TS…shame it used to be fun going hard here, giving it out and getting it back just as hard…but those good times are long gone.
   • Incognito 6.2

     9 January 2024 at 12:34 pm

     You’re still the same habitual one-eyed whiner.

     … and probably why the story of the most televised genocide in history that was published here on The Standard yesterday, only got 17 comments …

     Since 7 October 2023, there have been 14 Posts with “Israel” as category:

     https://thestandard.org.nz/category/international/israel/

     That’s an average of 5 Posts per month here on TS.

     These had a combined total of 665 comments and 12,063 views. Of course, these are quantitative metrics and don’t tell us much about quality or impact.

     Only a dimwit would ignore the fact that we just had a General Election and that almost everybody is currently on holiday recuperating & recharging. Site traffic reflects this, as does pretty much everything in MSM and SM; Daily Review is lying on the beach.

     … if any one were to use RT as a source in a debate here, it would be instantly dismissed out of hand….without even the slightest thought of double standards …

     This is your usual biased bollocks. It depends on the context and the merit/strength of the comment presented, among other things.

     For example, look at this thread (https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-25-06-2023/#comment-1956312) in which a commenter linked to RT and your own singularly biased response about news sources.

     … but then as we have witnessed with dismay, the Liberal class and their media you have been torturing and upending logic and truth so regularly over the last decade, why would they you see a problem…of course they you don't…up is down, black is white…[you] got it.

     FIFY
   • UncookedSelachimorpha 6.3

     9 January 2024 at 3:01 pm

     The BBC is quite often guilty of bias, I agree.

     In my case, I see evil and wrong doing on both sides of the Israel / Palestine conflict. Those who cheerlead only for Palestine often hold up Al Jazeera as a reliable source – when in fact it is owned by Qatar, a mysogynistic, authoritarian monarchy that provides massive funding to the terrorist organisation Hamas. My observation is that Al Jazeera is every bit as biased as the BBC.

     Neutral News? A study of the neutrality in BBC’s and Al Jazeera’s reporting on the Israeli military operation “Pillar of defense”

     …none of the agencies are honest in their claims of neutrality. There are various examples that show that BBC is favoring the Israeli view of the operation while Al Jazeera clearly promotes the Palestinian.
     • David 6.3.1

       9 January 2024 at 10:23 pm

       Well said.
7. Grey Area 7

   9 January 2024 at 2:53 pm

   Can people please not use so many initials. Shorthand may be helpful for the poster but for others of us left struggling to keep up they can be unhelpful. Having to resort to internet searches to work out what initials mean can become tiring.

   I guess GCF is a gender critical feminist? TRA? IEA? I had to look up LGB Alliance because I'd never heard of it.

   Over time we come to understand some shorthand if we regularly enter certain discussion spaces but if we enter them infrequently to me they are barrier.
   • Rosielee 7.1

     9 January 2024 at 5:03 pm

     
   • Johnr 7.2

     9 January 2024 at 7:25 pm

     I wholeheartedly agree Grey. I try to follow the thread of the conversation to be fair to the participants.

     But, especially with the gender alphabet soup stuff, after 20 or 30 he said she said comments in an alien vocabulary, that seems to not progress the discussion, my eyes glaze over.

     It would be nice if their was a button at the bottom of my phone screen that I could activate to get to the next subject and bypass this type of non productive dialogue
     • Muttonbird 7.2.1

       9 January 2024 at 10:26 pm

       It's difficult to follow this stuff but appreciate that commenters like yourself and Grey Area take the time to do so without prejudice.

       I have looked back at my comments and I have used one acronym/abbreviation but the explanation for it is in the appropriate link. Also appreciate the time taken to read those links which isn't available to everyone.

       One issue with the comment @1 is that it was removed by a moderator, for some reason and without explanation, from it's original context as part of another post which makes it more difficult to follow.

       I didn’t intend for it to be stand alone.
   • millsy 7.3

     9 January 2024 at 8:07 pm

     TRA = Trans(gender) Rights Activist

     IEA = Institute of Economic Affairs, basically the UK's version of the Business Roundtable.
     • Grey Area 7.3.1

       9 January 2024 at 10:17 pm

       Thanks. When I searched for TRA, out of the first 60 hits Google's AI provided there was nothing about gender. And putting in "TRA meaning" didn't help either.
   • weka 7.4

     9 January 2024 at 8:20 pm

     Fair point Grey Area. I will try to remember to use the full name at the start of a comment (but will prob use the initials after that, maybe as the thread goes on too).
     • Grey Area 7.4.1

       9 January 2024 at 10:04 pm

       Thanks Weka. If the full term is in view the initials are okay but I also agree with Johnr about the alien vocabulary. I also try to follow discussions like the preceding one but it's tough when initialised terms are used as if we should know what they mean.
       • weka 7.4.1.1

         10 January 2024 at 7:31 am

         this is useful feedback. Sometimes it's easy to slip into thinking everyone is ignoring a topic apart from a few people who are commenting, so thanks for raising this aspect as well.
8. Tricledrown 8

   9 January 2024 at 8:32 pm

   National are happy to have cult religions which have women in subservience take money and help from these happy clappy patriarchal cult like religious nutters who also have jumped on the conspiracy theorist band wagon finance ,help and legislate for a few votes.

   Youth suicide and social division will increase while these moral lowlives control everyone else.

   Watch an episode of how I escaped a cult.

   Bert Potter 'Brian Tamaki etc etc
   • Belladonna 8.1

     10 January 2024 at 7:20 pm

     Taking conspiracy theory quite a bit too far.

     I really doubt that Bert Potter followers were National voters (a hippy commune-style enclave – which would have been exceedingly alien to the National Party of the 20th century).

     I equally doubt that Brian Tamaki followers are voting National (except, possibly, strategically as their local MP in an electorate vote). Given that Tamaki had an endorsed party in the last election, and absent that, they would seem to be more closely aligned to Peters and NZF (certainly in its most recent incarnation).

     If you have any actual evidence that 'cult religions' are funding National (election donation amounts over $20K have to be declared within 10 days) – perhaps you could provide it.

     https://elections.nz/democracy-in-nz/political-parties-in-new-zealand/donations-exceeding-20000/
     • roblogic 8.1.1

       11 January 2024 at 12:25 pm

       National have history with the Exclusive Brethren, and half of the current Nats are Evangelical Christian

       The Hollow Men (book) – Wikiwand
9. Muttonbird 9

   9 January 2024 at 9:16 pm

   The coalition government's new infrastructure policy:

   No Waters.

   https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2024/01/wellingtonians-queue-for-hours-for-emergency-storage-tanks-as-water-shortages-loom.html
   • Pat 9.1

     9 January 2024 at 10:09 pm

     Nothing to do with new Gov…..this is an issue thats been building for decades and accentuated by population growth.

     200 litre rainwater tanks are not going to do anything

     Slagging off the Nat led Gov may make you feel better but it ignores the fundamental causes of the problem, and so we will continue to make the stupid mistake of expecting a change of Gov to solve the problems
     • Muttonbird 9.1.1

       9 January 2024 at 10:15 pm

       Of course, it's all Labour's fault. What was I thinking?
       • Pat 9.1.1.1

         9 January 2024 at 10:24 pm

         Obviously not….it may however be "the fault' of a growth model that demands us to increase infrastructure to the point we can no longer provide the resources to maintain that which we have built….a problem not solved by blaming any particular political party as they all advocate 'growth'….and we all vote for them when they do.
         • Muttonbird 9.1.1.1.1

           9 January 2024 at 10:46 pm

           Sustainable, modest, manageable and managed growth is fine. The Greens, MP and Labour all nod to this either in policy or action.

           I agree the 130K net immigration gain is ridiculous, but so too is the reluctance in NZ by the Atlas types, the Rand lot to make sure innovations to service any growth are available.
           • Pat 9.1.1.1.1.1

             9 January 2024 at 11:18 pm

             "Sustainable, modest, manageable and managed growth is fine. The Greens, MP and Labour all nod to this either in policy or action."

             And there you have it….same problems , different managers.
       • Belladonna 9.1.1.2

         10 January 2024 at 7:24 pm

         30+ years of failure to build and maintain infrastructure by Wellington City Council/Wellington Water.

         https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/explained/130757094/wellingtons-water-problems-have-been-decades-in-the-making
     • weka 9.1.2

       10 January 2024 at 7:38 am

       200L water tanks make a huge difference when it's the only water you have.

       Agree about the fundamental causes, but tbf NACTF were agin 3 Waters, and isn't the situation in Wellington exactly the kind of thing that 3 Waters was set up to address?
       • weka 9.1.2.1

         10 January 2024 at 7:39 am

         (4 x 50L tanks would be better, because you can fit them in the back of some vehicles and take them somewhere to get filled).
         • Belladonna 9.1.2.1.1

           10 January 2024 at 7:28 pm

           Just not really practical in a city – especially with terrace housing and/or apartments (which is quite a lot of Wellington central).
10. Muttonbird 10

    9 January 2024 at 11:26 pm

    "I was really concerned during the election campaign, that I was told by a candidate that we're just trying to 'trans-ify' kids. What on earth does that even mean? I hadn't even heard of the 'woke gender curriculum', I had to look it up, and saw that it was something that was an imported culture war. That really concerns me. Our kids are beyond that.

    "We have a really good curriculum in this country. The guidelines are not the curriculum, they are adding to how we can make sure the curriculum is taught well. They are not compulsory, but they are absolutely superb."

    – Jan Tinetti.

    Basically we are now leaving sex ed up to Winston Peters and his influencers…

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/506348/government-accused-of-conspiracy-based-thinking-in-changes-to-sex-education

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