Open mike 09/07/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, July 9th, 2019 - 159 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

159 comments on “Open mike 09/07/2019 ”

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  1. Cinny 1
    9 July 2019 at 7:17 am

    Wooooo hoooooo….. cheaper electric cars? YES PLEASE and THANK YOU 🙂

    We've been wanting one for ages, but haven't been able to afford, I really hope this happens, it would be life changing for so many.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/114068301/government-proposes-massive-feebate-car-scheme-that-would-make-cleaner-cars-up-to-8k-cheaper-and-dirtier-cars-more-expensive

  2. johnm 2
    9 July 2019 at 8:18 am

    Our climate is transitioning to a hotter state = Abrupt Climate Change

    Tiny Blip in Jet Stream Submerges Large Parts of Washington, DC

      • johnm 2.2.1
        9 July 2019 at 8:50 am

        Alex Farrant

        Alex Farrant 1 hour ago

        Washington DC now a swamp. Almost prophetic. This is why I don't do fiction anymore.

        Riitta Puhjo

        Riitta Puhjo 54 minutes ago

        Literally and figuratively a swamp.

        • WILD KATIPO 2.2.1.1
          9 July 2019 at 10:50 am

          Yeah well, … did they have the same mechanisms to register climate change 300 years ago?… and modern ice ore samples?… hey… lets ask the frozen mammoth who died with a tuft of grass in its mouths ( personally I think it died of a heart attack or old age .. ) , point is … why do we think we are any different ,- this worlds gone through many epochs of cooling and warming.

          And as for the industrial revolution and 100 years of petroleum /coal usage?

          One volcano the size of Karaktoa put up more debri into the atmosphere .

          I dunno. I cannot escape the suspicion theres a definite political agenda behind much of this, and yes, there are changes, but we've moved from ' global warming' to 'climate change'… all in a few short decades…

          • johnm 2.2.1.1.1
            9 July 2019 at 11:16 am

            20c Global Warming was considered linear, now it's evident it's exponential and the Planet is transitioning ( Abrupt Climate change) to a new hot state. Refer Michael Mann's hockey stick analogy.

            Michael Mann: The Hockey Stick in His Own Words

            • WILD KATIPO 2.2.1.1.1.1
              9 July 2019 at 12:10 pm

              Yeah well smog, space junk , and plastic bags killing marine life are all bad.

              But if we are to believe the evolutionists ,they say this earth is 'old' and has gone through many heating and cooling events. From Gwondala land ( and every other permutation on the theme ) and its break up and the volcano/mountain building process to the Carboniferous , Mezazoic, Cretaceous and a whole bunch of other 'zoics' and convenient eras they care to label.

              Think of it,… the 'Carboniferous' period… tons and tons of carbon locked up in trees, when they say the worlds atmosphere was far warmer than it is at present and there were no ice caps and the sea levels were much higher than now. So now we release a small percentage of that carbon in the form of oil and coal into the atmosphere again… so , voila!- instead of a return to the Carboniferous conditions and accepting it , – all of a sudden we get something different entirely… whereby certain groups ( read ' Bilderbergers' ) of this world can impose carbon taxes and gain control… seems a bit human – centric to me ,mate… with a fair few of those humans seeing a golden opportunity to make a fast buck and gain power more than any real concern ' for the planet'.

              And this is where we have the orthodox geologists and evolutionists by the short and curly's yet again, – by asking the question exactly WHY should we expect any difference between the Carboniferous period for example and now?

              You cant destroy matter as we've been led to believe, – and what goes up, must come down, – so they say. So now we release a very small portion of that former Carboniferous period carbon into the atmosphere in the form of oil and coal and now all of a sudden its 'anthropomorphic climate change'.

              It raised the alarm when Al Gore stood to gain millions of dollars in carbon tax shares along with the Bilderberger society ( the originators and pay roll guys of the theory originally ).

              There's no doubt there's change, but its a far cry from what the doomsayers are trying to make us believe. There's just no way conditions are going to approach anywhere close to the conditions that the orthodox geologists , climatologists and evolutionist's are leading us to believe. No way at all.

              You, your children and your grandchildren will still be here in 100 years time. Yes , Australia will grow hotter, yes the polar caps will shrink – as many of the glaciers have,… and yes, we will see more cataclysmic events regards typhoons and hurricanes …but that is supposedly a trifle compared to what changes this planet has undergone before – WITHOUT anthropogenic interference.

              As I've said before … you have far more to fear from THIS :

              What Happens When a Nuclear Bomb Hits – YouTube



              Than climate change in the next 100 years.

          • shadrach 2.2.1.1.2
            9 July 2019 at 1:28 pm

            "I cannot escape the suspicion theres a definite political agenda behind much of this…"

            Oh yes, there certainly is. And there is huge money to be made from this great bandwagon. But the bigger problem is that the kind of hysterical alarmism now so common is actually turning people off taking real action to address the issue.

            • Robert Guyton 2.2.1.1.2.1
              9 July 2019 at 4:48 pm

              If it's nothing more than alarmism, then the issue is not real, is it, Shadrach.

              • Shadrach …
                10 July 2019 at 7:14 pm

                Not at all. The issue can be real and yet have it's credibility/believability harmed by gross exaggeration.

              • Shadrach …
                10 July 2019 at 7:14 pm

                Not at all. The issue can be real and yet have it's credibility/believability harmed by gross exaggeration.

                • WeTheBleeple …
                  10 July 2019 at 7:36 pm

                  I think the issue is when people keep repeating themselves. wink

                  You do have a point re: doomsayers. But we must allow for the grieving process people go though when they realise the world and life as they know is under threat. Hell, I'd rather dream of a rosy future full of robots and hover boards than worry about how to deal with survival through rapid change.

                  It does cause a period of histrionics in many as grief is a real bitch.

                  As for making money… You really think there's some leftie conspiracy going on for cash? You don't understand lefties at all do you. There might be a few opportunists on the bandwagon but most aint in it for money at all, they're trying to save our asses.

                  Some of them trying to save our asses seem kinda shrill. The intention is largely honorable and sometimes it's a PITA.

                  You're a big boy now aren't you. You'll figure it out.

                  • Shadrach …
                    10 July 2019 at 9:53 pm

                    "You really think there's some leftie conspiracy going on for cash?"

                    Heck no. The exploiters come from all points of the political spectrum.

            • WILD KATIPO 2.2.1.1.2.2
              10 July 2019 at 1:13 am

              If there's one thing that galls me is humankinds rank stupidity in clearing the worlds forests ,- those massive 'purifiers' that are the real 'lungs' of the earth. The natural flora in any environment is there for a reason because it is the flora designed for that region. They are the filters of the planet.

              We replace it with monocrops such as pine , or worse ,… put it into pasture,… in NZ , I think there is less than 17% left of our lowland forests. Appalling.

              We collectively destroy those forests and the fauna which derives sustenance from them. We truly are wreckers. We create deserts. And the worst thing?- it is totally preventable.

              I wonder if more effort was put into simple revegetation ,… along with developing alternative, cheap sources of energy ( and they exist – one only has to read the huge amounts of data online ) whether we would see a far more balanced environment. I'm sure we would. One only has to look at documentary's on Chernobyl and the return of the mega wild life including Deer, Moose , Bears and Wolves – all totally unharmed by any 'radiation' to see the punyness of mankinds endeavors.

              Nature has a way of cancelling out anything we ever do once left alone.

              It is a comfort to see how rapidly the forest has again taken over and is covering the 'once city' of Chernobyl in a mere 30 years.

              In a study of the Toltecs, Mayans, Aztecs and Incas ,.. it is amazing how those society's not only created vast land areas from swamps and islands, – massive city's – ( 20 million populace in both the Aztec and Incas empires) but how they managed by not managing their surrounds barring what they needed for horticulture/agriculture. We cannot go back to that era but it is food for thought.

              An example of good planning are those farms in NZ who revege on riparian areas or provide natural areas for stock to shelter under… small increments such as that help to provide habitat, food sources, shelter – and in the case of riparian areas, – a natural filter for excess nitrates and the like.

              Our problem is our method of governing,.. with successive govt's not seeing the environment as being more important long term than pandering to human profit interests in the short term.

              Indeed,… it would be interesting to see if the 'lungs' of this earth were again increased to even a portion of what they once were,… if that would create a more stable atmospheric system and negate this mad hysteria of 'anthropomorphic climate change' and the carbon tax whereby nothing changes globally in an environmental sense , – barring certain elite individuals becoming even more obscenely powerful and wealthy.

    • Herodotus 2.3
      9 July 2019 at 9:38 am

      And we still promote tourism as a growth industry. So we can "tax" those with a few $$ considered rich BUT should there be an industry that would have large negative impact on our well being better not touch !!

      And as for calling for an emergency ?? Hopeless without meaningful action , and in most cases meaningful action has a price to pay as those US civil rights activists killed .

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/climate-news/113946213/more-than-50-of-new-zealands-top-scientists-call-on-government-to-declare-climate-emergency

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/110618125/what-is-the-carbon-footprint-of-international-tourism-in-nz

      https://www.carbonbrief.org/tourism-responsible-for-8-of-global-greenhouse-gas-emissions-study-finds

    • johnm 2.4
      9 July 2019 at 10:12 am

      Climate Crisis Disasters Now Occur Weekly, UN Warns

      https://truthout.org/articles/un-warning-that-climate-crisis-disasters-now-occur-weekly-provokes-calls-to-act/

      “staggering” new warning from a top United Nations official that climate crisis-related disasters are now occurring at the rate of one per week, with developing nations disproportionately at risk, provoked calls for immediate global action to combat the human-caused climate emergency.

      The warning came in an interview with The Guardian, which reported Sunday:

      Catastrophes such as cyclones Idai and Kenneth in Mozambique and the drought afflicting India make headlines around the world. But large numbers of “lower impact events” that are causing death, displacement, and suffering are occurring much faster than predicted, said Mami Mizutori, the U.N. secretary-general’s special representative on disaster risk reduction. “This is not about the future, this is about today.”

      This means that adapting to the climate crisis could no longer be seen as a long-term problem, but one that needed investment now, she said. “People need to talk more about adaptation and resilience.”

    • johnm 2.5
      9 July 2019 at 10:21 am

      The great mountain pine beetle outbreak

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSIEzq0fofk

      Our heating Planet has enabled this miniscule beatle to kill millions of trees in N.America

  3. RedLogix 3
    9 July 2019 at 8:23 am

    If anyone was ever curious about Artificial Intelligence this is an excellent primer based around the question 'what are machines so smart, yet at the same time so dumb'?



  4. The Chairman 4
    9 July 2019 at 8:32 am

    One in five children are living in households where putting food on the table is a struggle, according to a new report from the Ministry of Health.

    Queues of people lining up at the Manurewa MSD office to get emergency assistance.

    Auckland City Mission general manager of social services Helen Robinson said they have seen a 40 percent increase in demand for food this financial year, compared to last year.

    The number of hardship grants provided by this Government has increased 60 per cent year on year.

    If this was a National Government one would be asking where is the brighter future? But in this case it's a Labour one promising wellbeing as it proudly spends $20 billion on defence

    • Incognito 4.1
      9 July 2019 at 8:48 am

      How much does the NZ Government spend on Defence each year and how much on Social Welfare, for example?

      • The Chairman 4.1.1
        9 July 2019 at 8:59 am

        I'm sure you already have some idea that it is far more. Yet, evidently not near enough.

        But it would be interesting to know how much is spent on the bureaucracy opposed to the recipients.

        • WeTheBleeple 4.1.1.1
          9 July 2019 at 9:17 am

          I am concerned as to how many concerns you have. A concerted effort to contemplate concerning concerns of the concerned should be co-opted.

          Doesn't look good for the government. Concerning in fact.

          • Robert Guyton 4.1.1.1.1
            9 July 2019 at 10:40 am

            Without the Chairman's relentless and heartfelt expressions of concern for the Government's behaviour, this site would be nothing more than a riotous, bacchanalic festival of gloating and showboating by irresponsible, boastful lefties, drunk on power and sherry (is that what Socialists drink?Milk-stout maybe?Ena Sharples and Minnie Caldwell were never a Tories, were they?).

            We have a great deal to thank the Chairman for; he brings dignity to a blog that would otherwise be nothing more than a great night at the Rovers.

            • The Chairman 4.1.1.1.1.1
              9 July 2019 at 11:59 am

              Back-slapping echo chambers are excessively dull. Though, some find comfort in them.

            • greywarshark 4.1.1.1.1.2
              9 July 2019 at 1:59 pm

              Yay! Oh damn. I'll go for Yay! I love that florid description Robert – I wait in anticipation of being drunk on power, and sherry or kambucha (once I get used to it. We have a firm that has started making it in Nelson.)

              • mac1 …
                9 July 2019 at 6:30 pm

                Kambucha, grewarshark, is easy to make with basic brewing skills and gear. Cheap, tasty, even in smaller doses healthy. Doesn't have to be strongly alcoholic either. My brew is about 1% abv and made from mostly black tea with some flavoured tea bag additions. All you need is a SCOBY, tea, sugar and a brewing vessel. Mine's under an airlock in a 5 litre bottle. 3 litres every three weeks. My daughters reckon I'm an original hipster- though I'm of hippy age.Cheers!

          • The Chairman 4.1.1.1.2
            9 July 2019 at 11:23 am

            @ WeTheBleeple

            Don't be concerned for me, be concerned for those the Government are failing.

            It costs far less to pay a decent benefit rate than it does to keep someone in hospital.

            The Auditor-General's latest report into DHBs points to years of underinvestment combined with an ageing and increasingly impoverished population.

            • WeTheBleeple 4.1.1.1.2.1
              9 July 2019 at 11:40 am

              "be concerned for those the Government are failing"

              Are the Range Rover owners all getting crook off the plastics? Have the homeowners been dropping from exhaustion trying to make their rentals liveable? What about Farmers, cleaning up shit can't be good for them?

              I understand how the lack of CGT has affected the poor dears leaving much less ammo to back up their claims the sky is falling while they continue to live off the sweat of real men.

              I suggest an army of folks with umbrellas to symbolise the danger of said sky falling, and perhaps a Range Rover parade, to commemorate the death of the free market.

              It is good the Auditor General is able to illustrate the gross failings and mismanagement of the previous government. Have we managed to link it all to the current government yet? Those PR boys need to earn money too.

              It may be the government lack the perfection of execution required to clean a complete shit show up overnight. Let alone the convergence of many life threatening phenomena at once.

              I do hope you'll send them a terse letter compiling your concerns.

              • The Chairman …
                9 July 2019 at 11:53 am

                One letter of concern has little to no impact. Whereas, if the so-called left all spoke out publicly, I'm sure we would have a larger impact.

                Going off the distraction you just posted, I'm sure we can't count on your support.

                • McFlock …
                  9 July 2019 at 4:39 pm

                  Love your use of "we", toryboy. You have the impact of soggy bogroll.

                  This government were left a mountain of shit. Well, they're shovelling it out the door. What are you doing, other than complaining about the smell?

                  • Robert Guyton …
                    9 July 2019 at 4:44 pm

                    He's trying to push the door closed while complaining the shovelers are lazy and the shovels too small!".

        • Incognito 4.1.1.2
          9 July 2019 at 9:49 pm

          It doesn’t matter whether I “already have some idea that it is far more” or not. The point is that others who read TS may not know. You drew the comparison with the Defence spending budget yet failed to show the other side of the ledger. A persistent failure, I may add.

          But it would be interesting to know how much is spent on the bureaucracy opposed to the recipients.

          I assume you mean the bureaucracy to run the social welfare system? In what way would it be interesting? Do you have a benchmark in mind? Would you like to propose a more efficient and effective system? Are you in favour of small government?

          Again, you ask leading questions but fail to offer anything constructive. Is it merely negative criticism or anti-government propaganda? Despite your repeated protestations and claims of being “more left than most” it is often impossible to tell. By your comments we know you.

          • The Chairman 4.1.1.2.1
            9 July 2019 at 10:29 pm

            The comparison drawn was to highlight we have a welfare system that is largely unfit for purpose, resulting in widespread hardship. Yet, the Government prioritises a massive military spend over increasing core benefit rates in its so-called Wellbeing Budget.

            If this wasn't so dire it would be a joke.

            Thus, of course this is negative criticism. Labour can't pull crap like this and not expect to be criticised. The left I know are fuming. Yet, here, one can't point out such things without coming under fire.

            In what way would it be interesting?

            Exactly as I stated. To see how much of the welfare spend actually goes to those that require it. What's the CEO on now days?

            I'm not advocating for smaller Government but I'm confident efficiencies could be found at MSD.

            • Incognito 4.1.1.2.1.1
              9 July 2019 at 10:51 pm

              There you go again, with emphasis added where you clearly show your prejudice:

              The comparison drawn was to highlight we have a welfare system that is largely unfit for purpose, resulting in widespread hardship. Yet, the Government prioritises a massive military spend over increasing core benefit rates in it's [sic] so-called Wellbeing Budget.

              There is no comparison if you do not give the actual figures. It is just disingenuous innuendo and almost looks like a smear campaign.

              I’m also sure efficiencies can be found at MSD, which is an operational matter. Let’s cut the CEO’s salary by 50% and see whether that will solve “widespread hardship”. What is your benchmark for how much should go to those who require it?

              So, Labour, NZ First, and the Greens should stop to “pull crap like this” and you and your lefty buddies can stop fuming, no less. To me this sounds it is all about you and might explain the angry emotive language that has become your trademark for criticising Labour in particular rather than the CoL Government as a whole.

              And you do wonder why you come under fire here …

              • Sam …
                9 July 2019 at 10:57 pm

                I think the paradox of who pays for the military and how is limited by a population that is surplus to requirements, Y'know disposable.

                I don't think that is Ron Marks fault for successfully getting his budget priorities through. I think it is rather more telling that the rest of the cabinet ministers didn't.

                • Incognito …
                  9 July 2019 at 11:02 pm

                  This is not about the Defence budget.

                  • Sam …
                    9 July 2019 at 11:48 pm

                    Last time you commented it was to inform me that I wasn't Trump. Now this pathetic contribution.

                    • Incognito …
                      9 July 2019 at 11:54 pm

                      Both times you were missing the point. Going for the trifecta?

                    • Sam …
                      10 July 2019 at 12:16 am

                      I don't think so. If you were to construct a budget right now based on your desperate attempts to protect your little theoretical model of a government budget it would produced a CEO salary half what it is now, fewer bureaucrags so a smaller cheaper government and more stupid.

                    • Incognito []
                      10 July 2019 at 12:21 am

                      Congratulations! You won the Trifecta and a Bonus Ticket.

                    • Sam …
                      10 July 2019 at 12:28 am

                      Well Y'know Chairmen and I have discussed this welfare thing a few different ways before and I thought he was correct on a few things. The public just has to get used to these billion dollar unicorns. A billion dollar budget blow out used to be a very rare event. Now practically every ministry is experiencing these budget unicorns and we just have to mornalize them.

                • The Chairman …
                  9 July 2019 at 11:22 pm

                  Telling in what way?

                  That the international support for Ron successfully getting his budget had more sway?

                  • Sam …
                    9 July 2019 at 11:44 pm

                    Well I listened to Ron Marks budget speech. In it he congratulated the former minister of defence Gerry Brownly for showing a little bit of interest in his portfolio at the time, something he criticized Mark Mitchel for lacking, Y'know interest, self drive, a bit of knowledge of the issues.

                    If I go down the list of priorities out lined in the Defence Capability Plan released a couple of weeks ago, an extra LHD, an extra patrol vessel, basically $20 billion in stuff. No one thought Ron Marks could get all that past the Greens.

                    More significant is that the $20 billion dollar plan has so far crossed 2 successive governments. In my humble opinion I think the public should embrace such spending and more of it as a natural part of running a government.

              • The Chairman …
                9 July 2019 at 11:17 pm

                There is no comparison if you do not give the actual figures.

                Clearly, it wasn't a dollar for dollar comparison. It was a moral one. Highlighting a massive military spend was prioritises over increasing core benefit rates of kiwis most in need.

                What is your benchmark for how much should go to those who require it?

                The Welfare Expert Advisory Group gives some good indication.

                To me this sounds it is all about you…

                Well that clearly highlights you live in a bubble if you genuinely believe that to be true.

                • Drowsy M. Kram …
                  9 July 2019 at 11:44 pm

                  It's not my bubble that's burst wink

                • Incognito …
                  10 July 2019 at 12:16 am

                  Do you see your disingenuous smear campaign criticism of Labour as some kind of moral crusade? I mean $20 billion and the CEO’s salary combined obviously show how evil out of touch Labour is, and without a moral compass. There is no comparison necessary about dollars or how taxpayers’ money is spent, it’s just plainly and clearly wrong.

                  You don’t have a benchmark except for some vague reference to a group of others. Did they give benchmark for how much of the total MSD spent should go to those who require it? You brought it up so it is a valid question to ask you. But you keep ducking for cover and not answering the question.

                  Yes, I live in my personal sphere. What do you live in? When do you stop drawing attention to yourself and when will you start using your skills in a more effective and productive way here?

                  • The Chairman …
                    10 July 2019 at 12:27 pm

                    It's somewhat moral but more so a political need. And I'll explain why. Unfortunately, despite all their rhetoric, Labour's representation of the left is vastly lacking. National lite is the most common description. Therefore, they only tend to act in the interest of the left when they are publicly pressured to do so (and even then they largely fall short). I'm one of many helping to apply that public pressure.

                    The need is somewhat exacerbated in the current political environment due to the Greens heading down the same path since the political demise of Metiria Turei.

                    Prioritising such a massive military spend up over better addressing the more pressing issue of poverty suffering and hardship in a so-called Wellbeing Budget is a kick in the face for those who believed their campaign rhetoric and voted for them as a result.

                    When Little was leader he talked of cutting back this military spend. Yet, evidently, that quickly went out the window once they achieved power.

                    If Labour no longer want to represent the left, then fine. But they must make that publicly clear. Don't try to appeal to us only to turn around and shit on us. A least with National, the left know where they stand. No expectations, no let downs. With National we know we are screwed.

                    Re the bureaucracy opposed to the recipients, as I don't have a total overview, I don't currently have a benchmark in mind. I just thought it would be interesting to see the actual breakdown of where the money all goes.

                    • Incognito …
                      11 July 2019 at 10:03 pm

                      I appreciate your considered comment, I really do.

                      It leaves a number of questions unanswered. For example, is the Defence spending really “massive” compared to social welfare or health or poverty reduction? How can we tell without actual figures? Another way of putting it is to suggest how much less should be spent on Defence IYO and where and more importantly how should that money be spent elsewhere? It is easy enough to gesticulate wildly with your hands and arms but given that you don’t know what those who are in charge know I think this comes across as ignorant and arrogant.

                      Another question that remains is why Labour should be held to account for things they said and promised in the past, which they are allegedly not delivering on in the current Coalition Government? Can Jacinda Ardern be held to everything Andrew Little said when he was Labour Leader? Even when the parties are not delivering on past promises, it might mean that they are doing as much as they can under the circumstances.

                  • The Chairman …
                    12 July 2019 at 3:22 pm

                    The Defence spend is massive in a historical sense.

                    Little was speaking as Labour Party leader months out from the election, they changed leader but made no suggestion they were going to change their stance on this military spend. So of course they will be pulled up on this and called to account. Are you on planet Key? What were you expecting? Everybody to lay down and take it?

                    Labour's failure to deliver largely comes down to them tying their own hands (BRR, income tax, CGT etc) when it came to funding their rhetoric.

                    • Incognito …
                      12 July 2019 at 11:24 pm

                      The Defence spend is massive in a historical sense. [my bold]

                      What on Earth does this mean? What kind of answer is this, I ask you. BTW, astronomical sounds even better than massive.

                      Apart from the $20 billion figure, you’ve provided absolutely nothing of any substance, nada, zilch, rien, niente …

                      Labour's failure to deliver largely comes down to them tying their own hands (BRR, income tax, CGT etc) when it came to funding their rhetoric.

                      What are you suggesting? That they rip up the Coalition Agreement?

                      If Labour’s hand are tied down they cannot really do what you want them to do, can they?

                      Why did they tie down their own hands IYO? Should they have told NZF to go with National? Were you part of the coalition negotiations? Thought not.

                      Are you angry, or “fuming” rather, that Labour is leading this Coalition Government because you really come across that way.

                  • The Chairman …
                    12 July 2019 at 11:11 pm

                    Another way of putting it is to suggest how much less should be spent on Defence IYO

                    I'd look at cutting it in half. And spend the money on welfare, housing and health. But I don’t have a full overview. Nevertheless, whatever the case I wouldn't be spending that much on Defence with the current shit that's going down locally.

                    Moreover, that massive expenditure will largely head offshore. Whereas, if we spend it locally now, it will not only stimulate the local economy but will also save us money (by improving social ills) going forward. Putting us in a better position to re look at it (the military spend) further down the road.

                    • Incognito …
                      12 July 2019 at 11:50 pm

                      Ok, are you talking about cutting in half the Government's $20 billion Defence Capability Plan 2019 for the next 11 years?

                      What would be the known consequences of that cut?

                      Is that the only source of money or are there other areas you would cut too? Or was Defence spending just a rhetorical tool and a weapon to use against Labour? More like you’re ideologically opposed to Labour rather than ideologically supportive of more social welfare? I really cannot tell because once you start lashing out at Labour it doesn’t seem to matter what it is/was about.

                      You would “spend the money on welfare, housing and health”. Sounds good but what specifically would you do with the $10 billion? Build more social housing? Increase PHARMAC funding more? Increase benefits more? More support for mental health?

                  • The Chairman …
                    13 July 2019 at 12:16 am

                    “What on Earth does this mean?”

                    It’s the largest Defence procurement ever announced. Albeit it was initially announced by National.

                    What are you suggesting? That they rip up the Coalition Agreement?

                    Don't be silly. I was highlighting why they are failing to deliver.

                    Could they have avoided this? Yes, I'm confident they could of. They didn't have to make the BRR so stringent from the onset.

                    Just as Jacinda could have done more to secure a CGT (as I've highlighted here before) And she further dropped the ball completely dropping it. Polls showed support for a CGT. Especially when combined with tax cuts. She could have at least put it up for referendum come next election.

                    It was only going to be tax neutral for the first 5 years and it would have become a massive revenue source, which Jacinda has unnecessarily thrown away without batting an eyelid. And to make matter worse, they have no B plan as yet. And it will be a hard loss of revenue to compensate for.

                    They wouldn't have lost any votes taxing the top 1 percent (they may have even got away with taxing the top 10%) yet nada. Another lost form of revenue.

                    The tourist entry tax was another area they fell short. Another potential revenue stream cut far short.

                    They have a lot to deliver but are fiscally boxing themselves in.

                    I like your minimizing tactic and the way you continue to pretend it's just me that wants them to do more. Have you seen the People's Budget. Heard of CPAG? AAAP? I don't stand alone in my wants.

                    I'm not angry Labour are leading the coalition, I'm (along with many others) disappointed they are failing to deliver. Moreover, they seem intent on making matter worse. Why do they keep doing that?

                    • Incognito …
                      13 July 2019 at 11:17 pm

                      The Coalition Agreement is probably more of a ‘roadmap’ but also a ‘rulebook’ that loosely (?) defines the boundaries of what’s possible and what’s not from the Coalition’s perspective. Then there are, of course, the usual constraints on what the Government can do. In the end, Governments makes policy, they don’t perform miracles.

                      Yet, in your eyes, they systematically and continuously fall short and fail to deliver.

                      With the wisdom of hindsight, with different cards dealt to them by the voters, and under different political and economic circumstances we would and we will have a different outcome. Until then, they play with the cards they were dealt, to their best ability.

                      But you always claim to know better. Yet, you’re not an insider but more likely just another armChair critic.

                      I like your evading tactic and never provide straight answers, hard figures, or actual facts. Just your negative views of and attitude towards Labour. Didn’t you vote Green Party??

                      Good for you that don’t feel alone in your “wants”; is that supposed to show that it’s not all about you? Others here on TS are not exactly blown away by this Government either but at least they put up well supported arguments for debate and not just negative bias towards Labour.

                      Moreover, they seem intent on making matter [sic] worse. Why do they keep doing that?

                      This captures your enormous bias in one. Firstly, it is intentional on (again) Labour’s behalf. Secondly, (all) things are getting worse. Thirdly, doubt and suspicion again of their motives and wilful actions.

                      In short, you don’t seem to comment here in good faith and this is starting to concern me. In fact, you’ve been repeatedly called out about your behaviour here but there’s no hint of acknowledgement, that you take these things on board. Why do we have to put with your comments that demand change from Labour the Government in such an uncompromising way and whilst you show that you’re utterly unwilling to take our criticism on board? Your demands are therefore irreconcilable with your behaviour here and to me show a rigid angry person lashing out at Labour, time after time.

                    • The Chairman …
                      14 July 2019 at 12:53 am

                      Yet, in your eyes, they systematically and continuously fall short and fail to deliver.

                      Are you that blind and committed to Labour that you can't see this failure?

                      So, for example. When they only took 3 recommendations from the The Welfare Expert Advisory Group and not one of them was lifting core benefit rates (which by the massive increase in emergency benefits being issued coupled with the fact we know benefits were slashed, thus no longer fit for purpose showing an increase is long overdue) you didn't see that as them falling short in any way?

                      Especially with all their campaigning on poverty and giving Kiwis a fair go and a so-called Wellbeing Budget on the horizon?

                      You see no failure and are totally shocked anybody else would?

                      Moreover, I'm "a rigid angry person lashing out at Labour" for even suggesting so. Oh and I'm supposedly the only one in NZ even thinking so? Yeah right.

                      If you don't like what am saying, move on to the next comment.

                      Don't play stand over games with me. I don't fear you.

                    • Incognito []
                      14 July 2019 at 10:18 pm

                      It is not about being blind, it is about willing to see and focus. You seem to focus only on Labour’s failures. It is the only thing you want to see, expect to see, and focus on. Thus, you are wilfully blind. You cannot or do not want to see things in perspective. That is a very ‘limited’ way of discussing politics and trying to further progressive ideas IMHO.

                      If you don’t like what [I] am saying, move on to the next comment.

                      You claim to be “more left than most”, which should mean you and I are in the same political ‘camp’ for all intents and purposes. However, your anti-Labour bias, which often borders on smearing them IMO, is more hinder than help. To mitigate, I call you out.

                      Don’t play stand over games with me. I don’t fear you.

                      Well, that’s a new tactic to make another commenter stop challenging you on your anti-Labour bias. I tell you what, as long as you are making these unrealistic demands of Labour here, I will be challenging you on your comments. If you don’t like what I am saying, move on to the next comment. Don’t play silly games with me. I don’t fear you either.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      14 July 2019 at 11:32 am

                      "One of the key problems today is that politics is such a disgrace, good people don't go into government."
                      – Donald Trump

                      Failure is everywhere. It's puzzling that a self-professed "lefty" who is "more left than most", such as The Chairman, remains stubbornly silent (on this left-leaning blog) about the manifold failings of the National party, both in government and in opposition.

                      No let-up, however, in their "relentlessly soggy" criticism of left leaning politicians/government, so that's a ‘blind in one eye’ fail for The Chairman. As the (now searchable) evidence here continues to pile up, one begins to suspect they were never a friend of the left.

                    • The Chairman …
                      14 July 2019 at 11:41 am

                      @Drowsy M. Kram

                      Labour haven't been left since the 80s

                      Muldoon was probably more left than this Labour lot.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      14 July 2019 at 12:16 pm

                      Agree that 30+ years of neoliberalism as moved political parties towards the right on the NZ political 'Left – Right axis'. Nevertheless:

                      LEFT Greens (yeah) Labour NZ1st National ACT RIGHT
                      Relentlessy soggy criticism Deafening silence The Chair

                      Does The Chairman disagree?

                    • The Chairman …
                      14 July 2019 at 1:01 pm

                      Yes, neoliberalism has moved political parties towards the right which has resulted in Labour becoming National lite, thus no longer really a friend of the left.

                      And the Greens have shown themselves to be a toothless kowtower to Labour as they are also moving with the neoliberal tide.

                      So the choice for the left is to either push them back to the left and regain our political representation or look elsewhere for it. Sadly, a good number have just opted out and no longer vote as they see no hope of change.

                      And when people lose hope, that is where we risk things becoming dangerous.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      14 July 2019 at 1:12 pm

                      Chair, don't lose hope. Simon & Seymour ‘lead’ NZ’s ‘right’. wink

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      14 July 2019 at 4:27 pm

                      Are the youth losing hope, or are they "pretty damn hopeless"?
                      Do you recall your criticism of the Finance Minister at the time.

                      "Bill English blamed the number of young people on drugs, in part, for the Government's decision not to further limit unskilled migrant numbers.

                      It's not the first time either. English previously regaled a Fed Farmers meeting about the number of "pretty damn hopeless" young Kiwis who were unemployable."

                      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/89907495/government-fighting-immigrations-tentacles-on-every-front

                      The Chairman is highly selective when choosing targets for their relentless sogginess. Only The Chairman knows why.

                    • The Chairman …
                      14 July 2019 at 5:51 pm

                      What does English have to do with what I'm telling you.

                      Did you bring that up because you think the youth of today are"pretty damn hopeless". Cause that's not what I said.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      14 July 2019 at 6:18 pm

                      "pretty damn hopeless" unemployable young Kiwis – Bill English

                      "when youth lose hope" – The Chairman @3:36 pm

                      I submit that the current coalition government, led by PM Ardern, gives most young NZers more cause for hope than English or his hair fondling predecessor ever did. Feel free to disagree, loudly & often.

                      The "lefty" "more left than most" Chairman deplores the inadequacies of NZ's current government, loudly and often, but couldn't manage a bad word about the efforts and outcomes of the previous National government, preferring instead to highlight the manifold shortcomings of Labour, the Greens and even NZ1st in opposition.

                      The Chairman is "an enigma wrapped in a riddle" – a conundrum. The Hair-man’s deceits, on the other hand, were lauded as examples of integrity and honesty in National party circles.

                      At least English was being honest in his opinion of young unemployed NZers.

                    • The Chairman …
                      14 July 2019 at 11:56 pm

                      @Incognito

                      What you clearly fail to see and evidently fail to understand is, Labour's achievements are largely tied to their failures. So it's not that I don't see them, it's just they are not worth raving about.

                      Take the new tourist entry tax/levy, that was an good achievement which also fell well short.

                      Medicinal cannabis is another achievement but also another fall short. And again, nothing really positive to rave about.

                      GP fees, another good move, but again they promised $8 GP visits but only dropped the fees to $18. So of course, the jumps for joy aren't going to be forthcoming.

                      I can go on but surely you must be starting to see and understand.

                      What gripes me and others is the lost opportunity, we don't have time to mess about, things are really bad out there and getting worse, hence we need far more done now.

                    • Incognito []
                      15 July 2019 at 12:24 am

                      I 100% agree with your last sentence.

                      Have you ever seen me rave about Labour or this Government for that matter?

                      The way I see it is that constructive criticism is about balance and finding the sweet spot between the ‘good, the bad, and the ugly’. Everything happens on a scale, a spectrum if you like. Actually, more in a multi-dimensional and multi-factorial continuum. Simplism and reductionism only get you so far, and binary thinking and dualism are not much help either.

                      I am optimistic that you and I and many others here are contributing to a better future, whatever that means, and not just for ourselves but also, and more importantly, for others. And we all do this in our own ways, starting with ourselves and our natality (cue Hannah Arendt).

                      That’s all I have to say for now.

                      Have a good night.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      15 July 2019 at 12:19 am

                      "What you clearly fail to see and evidently fail to understand…"

                      It's clearly illogical to expect me to understand that which I "clearly fail to see."

                      Nevertheless, I see well enough to see through your carefully choreographed pas de deux.

                      I'm personally disappointed by the scale and speed of progress the Labour-led coalition has made thus far in rolling back some of the more egregious ills perpetrated during nine LONG years of self-serving National party 'rule', but IMHO is a bit too soon to panic. Carry on.

                      "Softly, softly, catchee monkey."

                    • The Chairman …
                      15 July 2019 at 12:32 am

                      Have a good night.

                      You too. Catch you up next time, ta-ta.

                  • The Chairman …
                    13 July 2019 at 1:07 am

                    What would be the known consequences of that cut?

                    Really? Come on, you're not that ignorant are you? Surely you must know there will be a number of them. Mainly, our defence capability will take longer to rebuild and the wider impact of that. However, it will be $10 billion better off than it currently is now going forward.

                    It's going to disappoint the international interests that are going to cash in on this. And those that want us to carry more weight. But again, $10 billion will make improvements to our current capability.

                    Is that the only source of money or are there other areas you would cut too?

                    No. I would make other cuts and changes too.

                    I'm ideologically opposed to war. Moreover, historically our military spending has largely been atrociously wasteful. With cost blowouts and purchases not fit for purpose. Which, I'm sure we will see more of with this massive spend up. As they say, watch this space.

                    I am ideologically supportive of more social welfare spending. It's not only morally correct, it's fiscally astute.

                    I don't generally lash out at Labour, I just tell it how it is, yet some here take it as a lashing. I guess its a case of the truth hurting some of the more sensitive ones.

                    Sounds good but what specifically would you do with the $10 billion? Build more social housing? Increase PHARMAC funding more? Increase benefits more?

                    Yes, yes and yes. In health, more preventative and diagnostic investment to better catch things early. Speaking of which, where are those $8 GP visits that Labour promised but have yet to deliver?

                    Social housing is where the need is worse and is not being met, which in turn will slow private investment in rental property as rents slow as supply increases. Resulting in less demand for housing, thus slowing house price growth going forward.

                    • Incognito …
                      13 July 2019 at 11:49 pm

                      Indeed, I’m ignorant of the cuts you demand and their consequences. It is for you to show the impact of these cuts and whether and how the claimed benefits outweigh the negative consequences. This not a simple Excel exercise, you know. Yet again, you fail to provide a satisfactory answer. In fact, you don’t even make a genuine attempt. For example, tell us what you’d cut, why, and what the consequences would be. Be specific. You can use the Defence Capability Plan 2019 as your guide.

                      I am also opposed to war. Yet paradoxically, spending on Defence can help to avoid war.

                      Moreover, historically our military spending has largely been atrociously wasteful. With cost blowouts and purchases not fit for purpose. Which, I'm sure we will see more of with this massive spend up.

                      Nice adjectives. Care to give some examples? You do realise that cost blowouts and purchase not fit for purposes are part and parcel of governing and are really operational matters and not specific to Defence, don’t you?

                      I am also in favour of more or rather better social welfare spending. I agree, it is good economics.

                      I don't generally lash out at Labour, I just tell it how it is, yet some here take it as a lashing. [my bold]

                      Uhhmmm, no. You just tell it how you see it and how you want it. Unless you have all the facts and the complete picture, which you obviously do not, you have just an opinion.

                      You know that GP visits are not paid for or subsidised by PHARMAC, don’t you? Yes, very good point about prevention and early diagnosis with the only proviso that early diagnosis can have the unwanted consequence of too much and/or too early intervention. Along these lines, pregnancy appears to be more and more treated as a health risk and there are way too many C-sections performed IMHO, at great cost (and with their own health risks).

                      I agree that the Government should ramp up social housing. I don’t necessarily agree that this should come from the Defence budget but I’m awaiting a compelling argument to convince me otherwise.

            • Drowsy M. Kram 4.1.1.2.1.2
              9 July 2019 at 10:56 pm

              Q.1: How long has NZ had "a welfare system that is largely unfit for purpose"?

              Q.2: How long has The "lefty" "more left than most" Chairman been criticising the Government charged with formulating and delivering that welfare system?

              Honest answers could set The Chairman free.

              • Incognito …
                9 July 2019 at 11:00 pm

                Blast! He’ll be forever chained to TS; our own poltergeist.

              • Chris …
                13 July 2019 at 1:24 am

                Our welfare system hasn’t been fit for purpose since at least 1991. Some would argue before that when benefit rates ceased to be tagged to the cost of living.

      • Peter Christchurh nz 4.1.2
        9 July 2019 at 4:00 pm

        Ingcognito, Is defence not also welfare though?

        China without any doubt whatsoever is a threat to our future way of life and standard and quality of living. Ergo, welfare for our countries future security is also social welfare.

        Have we so soon forgotten the lessons of the creeping danger as in the appeasement policies of the 1930s, or the appeasement policies of the US towards the sick North Korean regime?

        • greywarshark 4.1.2.1
          9 July 2019 at 5:04 pm

          Have you reviewed the WW2 studies where it was pointed out that Chamberlain's period of appeasement enabled Britain to hurriedly prepare for war.

          Earlier they would have had insufficient organisation, infrastructure, weaponry, training, planning, manpower etc. to withstand Germany's superior organisation. Winston could and no doubt, did, advise them on that as it had been an interest of his for probably a decade, and he organised regular reports to him on such matters.

          The obvious was useful, everyone thought Britain was backing off, and no doubt if they had caught one of their diplomats leaking the truth about their unreadiness, he would have been quickly dealt with; faster than Trump.

          Here is a Timeline of the interwar years from Wikipedia. What turbulent times. Whats that French saying – 'plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose' Karr from 1849 – proven correct. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_events_preceding_World_War_II#1930

          This is a very interesting excerpt from a book about Edward VIII who abdicated in 1936. It seems to give a thoroughly researched picture of the man and his approach to his country and royal duties. He seems admirable to an extent which I had not realised, with enough detail to substantiate and explain any faults that could have been found.

          (King Edward VIII: An American Life by Ted Powell is available now (Oxford University Press, £25).

          This article was first published on History Extra in September 2018.)

          https://www.historyextra.com/period/20th-century/real-edward-viii-nazi-sympathiser-reformer-soldier/

          • CHCoff 4.1.2.1.1
            9 July 2019 at 5:42 pm

            ' Have you reviewed the WW2 studies where it was pointed out that Chamberlain's period of appeasement enabled Britain to hurriedly prepare for war.'

            Or it was a giant fudge that ended when a forest was found to be not a very effective fighter against the relatively most advanced & mobile technological war society of the time & probably since

            • McFlock 4.1.2.1.1.1
              9 July 2019 at 5:58 pm

              Much of its equipment having been captured from the Czechs.

            • greywarshark 4.1.2.1.1.2
              9 July 2019 at 7:48 pm

              No forests and fudge didn't appear in the information I was reading.

              I thought i was talking about Britain and Germany and France all facing off around 1938-39, and I put a timeline showing earlier years. Was Britain all ready at the time Chamberlain was having talks – they had a phony war too for a while – that must have helped in giving time to get defences ready and plan for attack?

      • SHG 4.1.3
        9 July 2019 at 10:41 pm

        How much on the elect Shane Jones northland fund you mean?

    • Drowsy M. Kram 4.2
      9 July 2019 at 12:41 pm

      "The number of hardship grants provided by this Government has increased 60 per cent year on year." – The Chairman @4

      Why would The Chairman, who is "more left than most", chose to propagate such a scurrilous out-and-out 'citation-free' lie? Steven Joyce, or John Key (god, weren’t they just stinkers) I could understand, but a "lefty" such as The Chairman? Why, it fair beggars belief – who does The Chairman get their facts from, Stacey Kirk?!!

      Here are the annual increases (to Sept each year) in the number of hardship grants provided for the last three years. The increase to Sept 2018 is not dramatically higher than the previous two years under a National-led government, and is presumably needs-based. Possibly, just possibly, an unmet need developed under the ‘careful watch’ of National party MPs that is only now being addressed.

      213,167 (Sept 2015) – 247,641 (Sept 2016): + 16.2 %
      248,641 (Sept 2016) – 290,683 (Sept 2018): + 16.9 %
      290,683 (Sept 2017) – 344,731 (Sept 2018): + 18.6 %

      https://www.msd.govt.nz/documents/about-msd-and-our-work/publications-resources/statistics/benefit/2018/benefit-fact-sheets-september-2018.pdf

      "If this was a National Government one would be asking where is the brighter future?" – The Chairman @4

      Yet The Chairman was curiously silent about the year-on-year increases that occurred under the National-led government, curious at least for a self-described "lefty".

      The Chairman, "as transparent as a transparent thing" – maybe it's all Jacinda's fault, but I don't trust The Chairman's motives, nor anything they say.

      • The Chairman 4.2.1
        9 July 2019 at 12:53 pm

        Why would The Chairman, who is "more left than most", chose to propagate such a scurrilous out-and-out 'citation-free' lie?

        A lie was it? Yet it was reported as a quote by Social Development Minister Carmel Sepuloni, in response to claims it was turning away people in need at Manurewa.

        Blowing Labour's own trumpet a bit hard perhaps in the ass covering process?

        https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/114070792/this-government-promised-a-war-on-poverty–is-it-gaining-any-ground#comments

        • Drowsy M. Kram 4.2.1.1
          9 July 2019 at 1:02 pm

          So your information source is Stacey Kirk – quelle surprise.

          So glad we at last have a NZ government that is attempting to address this previously unmet need so that folks who were struggling under National's 'blighted future' policies have a better chance of life with dignity – don't you agree?

          “Blowing Labour’s own trumpet a bit hard perhaps in the ass covering process?“

          Even for The “lefty” “more left than most” Chairman, this is a bit rich. Maybe, just maybe, they are finally transistioning from their ‘friend of the left’ charade – not a second too soon, IMHO.

          • The Chairman 4.2.1.1.1
            9 July 2019 at 11:00 pm

            So your information source is Stacey Kirk

            She was merely one of a number of journalists that reported it.

            The attempts of this Government have fallen well short. Their response to the Welfare Expert Advisory Group was absolutely dismal.

    • Shadrach 4.3
      10 July 2019 at 7:28 pm

      When I was a child in the 1960's, a significant portion of my neighbourhood struggled to put food on the table. The difference was that people made sacrifices to make it happen, they didn't think the state was the first port of call for help, and they beat down every door looking for work. We have grown soft, massaged into submission by an overly generous welfare system and an unwillingness to make personal sacrifices to take care of those we have had a hand in creating.

      • Sam 4.3.1
        10 July 2019 at 7:38 pm

        Do you want to be called trash as well do you?

        thats a rubbish comment you made. The welfare state didn't spawn dependant children. That's like saying F1 racing causes drink driving.

        No TV adverts selling children GI Joe and Barby over decades made them soft you nutter.

        • Shadrach 4.3.1.1
          10 July 2019 at 9:55 pm

          "The welfare state didn't spawn dependant children. "

          No, but it's expansion and abuse created the environment for intergenerational dependence.

        • Shadrach 4.3.1.2
          10 July 2019 at 10:01 pm

          Oh the timing. Here's the sort of bs that just encourages irresponsibility: https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2019/07/parents-angry-after-government-scraps-unpaid-ncea-fees.html

          • Sam 4.3.1.2.1
            11 July 2019 at 5:36 am

            So you're scared angry at a double tax?

            Being concerned about how people die rather than some mythical welfare queen eating caviar between meals, popping out kids for less money than the government gives while having to prove they’re looking for work is a fantasy. It’s not a real concern.

            • Shadrach 4.3.1.2.1.1
              11 July 2019 at 10:13 am

              It’s the signal. Do the right thing, pay what you owe, and then watch others who didn’t get rewarded. Or, keep you hands in your pockets, live frugally and independently, and watch others live off the state. It’s not all recipients, but there is enough to be of concern.

              • Sam …
                11 July 2019 at 10:16 am

                What others?

                • Shadrach …
                  11 July 2019 at 12:48 pm

                  The 'others' who didn't pay the NCEA fees and had the debt forgiven. The 'others' who cheated the taxpayer and then become Green Party MP's. There are plenty of examples.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram …
                    11 July 2019 at 1:06 pm

                    Plenty of examples of dishonesty crime (fraud, corruption, etc.) in NZ. https://teara.govt.nz/en/dishonesty-crime

                    It's important that they are all addressed, but resources are limited.

                    If you actually wanted the biggest bang for taxpayer buck, which area(s) would you prioritise, i.e. allocate the greatest resources?

                    Burglary and theft?
                    Fraud?
                    White-collar crime?
                    Copyright crime and tax evasion?

                    • Shadrach …
                      11 July 2019 at 7:48 pm

                      When we allow our political leaders to get away with stealing form the taxpayer, we are sending a signal that that is ok. All of what you mention is wrong, but maybe if we made an example of some high profile miscreants (and not just ex Green party leaders btw) the rest of our bad behavers might get the message.

                    • Sam …
                      11 July 2019 at 7:58 pm

                      Oh piss off Mr Realestate. Y'know thousands have lost there jobs in the last 10 years through offshoring jobs. Employers just make people redundant and you want to blame Labour, The Greens or the Welfare state. Classic really, conservatives and hard left all in denial.

                    • KJT …
                      11 July 2019 at 7:59 pm

                      Like the ones who made their money shorting the NZ dollar, for example?

                      How much did that, cost every individual New Zealander.

                      But. That theft was legal, so it was OK.

                    • Sam …
                      11 July 2019 at 8:07 pm

                      Hey not every forex trader assumes sovereign risk. Sometimes they just get lucky. Nah but the Reserve Bank now has tools to fight against currency manipulation and I think they are exercising there duties as well as could be expected. Y'know the she'll be right attitude is just the wrong one to have. It's crazy to assume that poor people are the reason the economy is soft.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      11 July 2019 at 10:36 pm

                      A reasonable strategy might be to allocate publicly-funded investigative and prosecutorial resources roughly on a pro rata basis, i.e. estimate the total cost (to victims and wider society) of each major category of offending, then allocate taxpayer funds accordingly, starting (as Shadrach suggests) with high-profile alleged offenders.

                      Don't know exactly how much Metiria Turei's self-confessed offending (~10 years before she was elected to parliament in 2002) cost the taxpayer, but the courts have determined that another former politician (an ex-PM, no less), is liable for $6,000,000 – no small sum. I wouldn't hold my breath that reparations will be forthcoming in either case.

                      And I couldn't begin to speculate on whether one, or the other, or both offended for love of money, although if personal wealth is any measure then their love of money is not shared equally wink

                      "For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows." – 1 Timothy 6:10

                    • Sam …
                      11 July 2019 at 10:57 pm

                      Then there's the super dupery tough conservative policy of handing out tax cuts for the "poor" people, of course.

                      Apparently, there are prevalant myths that the state relationship is reversed: that the poor taxes support rich infrastructure and whatnot.

                      So I'm gonna go with yeah, nah. They don't, and yes, it's both concerning and painfully eye-rolley.

                  • KJT …
                    11 July 2019 at 7:57 pm

                    The ones who, couldn't, pay the NCEA fees, which should never have been levied in the first place.

      • In Vino 4.3.2
        10 July 2019 at 8:07 pm

        Shadrach – You conveniently forget that when you were growing up, people who found work were paid a decent wage relative to the cost of living. It was worth the effort to work.

        No longer so: the minimum wage is now an insult to anybody's dignity.

        I blame the Rogernomes. I am old enough to remember Roger Douglas earnestly expounding how his theories had to work, and how NZ should avoid becoming a low-wage economy. With a high-wage economy, we would thrive incredibly..

        What a bloody liar. He and his ilk then put in policies that could only plunge NZ into a low-wage economy.

        When you were young, people got decent wages when they worked. They don't now, and that changes everything. You reminiscences are invalid and downright stupid.

        • Shadrach 4.3.2.1
          10 July 2019 at 9:58 pm

          "When you were young, people got decent wages when they worked."

          Did they? And yet my dad worked two jobs at times just to pay the bills. I don't know whether it's easier to live on the average wage today or not. All I know is that I see a lot of people with one hand out and the other spending it on stuff we used to call luxuries.

          • Drowsy M. Kram 4.3.2.1.1
            10 July 2019 at 10:09 pm

            You're not, by any chance, thinking of David Hisco, Nigel Murray, Jenny Shipley or Peter Whittall? Best not to bother wealthy 'players'; focus instead on real crims.

            “Only the poor break laws – the rich evade them.” – T-Bone Slim

      • The Chairman 4.3.3
        12 July 2019 at 2:26 pm

        @Shadrach

        In the early 60's, New Zealand enjoyed one of the highest standards of living in the world.

        One main income earner was able to cover the bills, put food on the table and pay off the family home. Jobs were plentiful and double time and time and a half for working overtime and weekends were common practice. This allowed many low skilled workers the opportunity to put in some extra hours and be nicely rewarded come payday. Unions were strong and workers enjoyed the benefits of that.

        Moreover, the cost of renting or owning a home was far less relative to incomes then than it is now. It was a totally different era, thus as In Vino (above) points out, your comparison, in a general sense is far from valid.

        • Shadrach 4.3.3.1
          12 July 2019 at 4:48 pm

          In the 1960's we owed our standard of living entirely to mother England. Those days of gone, and we have had to grow up. Some people haven't, and the rest of us are picking up the tab.

          • The Chairman 4.3.3.1.1
            12 July 2019 at 5:15 pm

            We didn't "grow up" we created an unsustainable mess.

            Jobs were lost, unions weakened, and benefits were severely slashed. Labours share of the economy was reduced. House prices have soared and households debt is at record high levels. The most lucrative means of production are largely in foreign hands/ownership and the rich have become richer while more commoners are living in cars and our jails are at near full capacity.

            • Shadrach 4.3.3.1.1.1
              13 July 2019 at 4:09 pm

              We grew up. Yes jobs were lost, but far more were created. Our economy went from being a basket case to being described in rock star terms. NZ today employs more people than ever before.

              We have benefitted enormously from technological advance which has seen us enjoy a standard of living my parents only dreamed of. We have access to inexpensive goods and services far beyond those of the 1960's. And all of that is sustainable if we have government’s that manage the country with skill, which fortunately we have had. Until, arguably, the current government. Time will tell.

              What we aren't is dependent on mother England for our standard of living. We have forged an independent economic pathway that has delivered benefits to all who work to enjoy it. That you see the weakening of unions (by workers voting with their feet) and the 'slashing' of benefits as somehow bad things is indicative of a mindset that is stuck in the 1970's. Thankfully the country has moved on.

              • The Chairman …
                13 July 2019 at 8:48 pm

                Apart from technological advancements that, as time moved on, would have largely occurred regardless, our standard of living has fallen since the 60s – not improved.

                The rock star label was a sham. Built on a house of cards, namely soaring household debt and an opening of the floodgates (immigration). Both of which are unsustainable in their current trajectory. Our infrastructure is failing to cope, and our growing debt is of concern to our creditors.

                As for our indebtedness, local Government is up to its eyeballs. With Auckland for example, hitting their debt ceiling.

                Jobs have largely become low paid and insecure, it's now called the gig economy. And the stats used classes one hour of work as being employed, thus there is a growing number that can get the hours of work they require.

                Stats NZ data shows that in the year to June last year, there were 2.14 million people in New Zealand who had annual income from wages and salaries.

                Of them, 50 per cent took home less than $45,673 a year.

                Only 23 per cent of people had income of more than $70,000.

                Our impoverishment is now straining our health system.

                Having access to inexpensive imported goods such as big flat screens is of little help when people can't afford a flat/home to put them in.

                The New Zealand economy would have been 10 per cent larger in 2010 were it not for the steep rise in income inequality which occurred between the late 1980s and mid-1990s, OECD economists have found.

                Drawing on data from across the OECD over the past 30 years their econometric analysis finds that income inequality has a negative and statistically significant impact on subsequent growth.

                https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11371860

                Yes, we have come a long way from dependence on mother England. We were the first to do a trade deal with China and have a number of others under our belt. But while we have come a long way and had sustained GDP growth, our standard of living (bar from technological advancements) hasn't improved and we could have done better (as highlighted above) if we didn't slash benefits widening our inequality. Moreover, our income stats above highlight only a very small number are doing well. The love isn't being shared and it is costing us all apart from a small number at the top.

                So instead of pointing the blame at those on the bottom, start looking at what's going on up top.

                As I've clearly shown, my perspective is fine. It's yours that needs adjustingwink

                • Shadrach …
                  14 July 2019 at 12:06 pm

                  “Apart from technological advancements that, as time moved on, would have largely occurred regardless, our standard of living has fallen since the 60s – not improved.”

                  That’s nonsense. NZ’ers have been in the position to enjoy new technologies because of the economic liberalisation of the 1980’s and beyond. Without those changes the new technologies would have remained beyond most people due to duties, quote etc. Today even the most modest of households enjoys a lifestyle my parents could only have dreamed of.

                  “The rock star label was a sham. Built on a house of cards, namely soaring household debt and an opening of the floodgates (immigration).”

                  Again, nonsense. Our economy is diverse. We have enjoyed growth in a range fo sectors beyond property, including tourism and technology.

                  “Jobs have largely become low paid and insecure, it's now called the gig economy.”

                  That is little more than a mantra to satisfy those who have been left behind in a modern economy. We compete on the world stage across a raft of different industry sectors, something we were incapable of in the ‘60’s.

                  “Our impoverishment is now straining our health system.”

                  No, they aren’t. Our health system is exceptional by world standards. The stresses on it are largely the result of the availability of new procedures and technologies, and the pressure of an aging population.

                  “Having access to inexpensive imported goods such as big flat screens is of little help when people can't afford a flat/home to put them in.”

                  Very few people cannot. I rent to low income families. All have the latest TV’s phones, etc.

                  “Moreover, our income stats above highlight only a very small number are doing well. The love isn't being shared and it is costing us all apart from a small number at the top.”

                  You are conflating income inequality with whether people are generally better off. For every economist you cite who claims we could have been better off with less inequality I’ll quote you one who disagrees. Just because my wealth hasn’t increased as much as my neighbours doesn’t mean mine hasn’t increased. Indeed mine may have increased BECAUSE my neighbours has increased by more. Our economy today provides the opportunities for far more people to prosper, but today it is far more about choice than it was in the 1960′. Some choose to live off the rest of us (and that is the fault of an overly generous welfare system), when it really isn’t necessary. Back to my original point.

                  • The Chairman …
                    14 July 2019 at 2:45 pm

                    Without those changes the new technologies would have remained beyond most people.

                    Not if the love was better shared and people were earning more as a result. As it stands, most of those items are put on tick as they continue to be beyond the salaries and wages of the majority as the cost of life's necessaries (like housing) are robbing them of their discretionary income.

                    While our economy has diversified somewhat, GDP growth is still largely coming from soaring debt and immigration. Tourism is another area that is becoming unsustainable in its current trajectory, hitting capacity constraints in our infrastructure and accommodation.

                    A large chunk of tourism income goes towards accommodation, which is vastly offshore owned.

                    The gig economy isn't merely a mantra, there is a growing number of part time work and a growing number of workers that are underemployed. A job for life has become a thing of the past.

                    The Auditor-General's latest report into DHBs points to years of underinvestment combined with an ageing and increasingly impoverished population putting strain on our health system.

                    While low income families may have the latest TV’s phones, etc, a good number still struggle to buy food and pay their bills. These largely one off items (opposed to ongoing daily expenses) don't offset the hardship they face. And you'll find most get into debt to buy them anyway.

                    I wasn't conflating income inequality with whether people are generally better off. I was highlighting the returns from GDP growth aren't being widely shared. The rich are getting richer as the majority are ending up with less of a share.

                    For every economist you cite who claims we could have been better off with less inequality I’ll quote you one who disagrees.

                    You sound like John Key. The IMF and OECD not only acknowledge this but understand how it contributes to the boom and bust cycle. A more equal economy not only fosters growth it is also a more long lasting sustainable economy.

                    You go on to say "our economy today provides the opportunities for far more people to prosper".

                    Yet, evidently, more aren't. Home ownership is in decline, Household debt is soaring. Food bank queues are growing. Jails are at full capacity. But that's OK for you as most have the latest phone and a big TV.

                    Even Phil O’Reilly gets the welfare system in NZ is not fit for purpose and is not overly generous.
                    https://youtu.be/Cdo_Pz6ez5w

                    • Shadrach …
                      14 July 2019 at 6:38 pm

                      “Not if the love was better shared and people were earning more as a result.”

                      So go live in a communist country, but you’ll pass masses leaving for market economies, that are providing much higher standards of living.

                      “As it stands, most of those items are put on tick as they continue to be beyond the salaries and wages of the majority as the cost of life's necessaries (like housing) are robbing them of their discretionary income.”

                      No-one is forced to buy anything. That’s the beauty of a free society.

                      “While our economy has diversified somewhat, GDP growth is still largely coming from soaring debt and immigration.”

                      Now you’re saying ‘largely’. That’s a climb down, but you’ve still got some way to go.

                      “The Auditor-General's latest report into DHBs points to years of underinvestment combined with an ageing and increasingly impoverished population putting strain on our health system. “

                      We don’t have an increasingly impoverished population. You’re just making this up.

                      “While low income families may have the latest TV’s phones, etc, a good number still struggle to buy food and pay their bills. “

                      Maybe these are connected?

                      “I wasn't conflating income inequality with whether people are generally better off. I was highlighting the returns from GDP growth aren't being widely shared. The rich are getting richer as the majority are ending up with less of a share.”

                      So what? If my 10% share is worth ore than my old 15%, I’m better off.

                      “ A more equal economy not only fosters growth it is also a more long lasting sustainable economy.”

                      There is absolutely no evidence for that. In fact the failure of just about every socialist economy proves you are wrong.

                      “Home ownership is in decline”

                      Again, so what? Home ownership is in decline globally, and many immigrants to NZ come from countries with no specific culture of home ownership.

                      “Food bank queues are growing. Jails are at full capacity. But that's OK for you as most have the latest phone and a big TV.”

                      The prison population is the result of individual decisions to commit crime. Not colonisation. Not economic policy. Bad personal choices.

                      “Even Phil O’Reilly gets the welfare system in NZ is not fit for purpose and is not overly generous.”

                      Our welfare system is a disincentive to SOME to better themselves by their own effort. As a last resort, I fully endorse the welfare state, but it has become the first port of call for too many, and that as been actively encouraged by successive governments. The extensive reach of Working for Families is an excellent example. Middle class welfare is socialism by stealth. And yes, that is John Key.

                  • The Chairman …
                    14 July 2019 at 8:48 pm

                    So go live in a communist country

                    Why would I want to do that when more socialist countries like Norway are doing so well? I'm a modern day Keynesian not a communist.

                    I didn't claim people were forced to buy. Was highlighting these items continue to be beyond the salaries and wages of the majority as the cost of life's necessities (like housing) are robbing them of their discretionary income.

                    Stating largely wasn't a climb down from my initial comment where I stated namely. Nor does it change the point made.

                    I'm not making shit up. You are just poorly informed.

                    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12245927

                    Purchasing a TV etc is generally a one off expense albeit spread out over time if ticked up. So while purchases like this will have an impact on household budgets, it won't be the main driver of fiscal hardship. Therefore, the interconnection would be small.

                    If your new 10% share is now worth more than your old 15% share then your new 15% share would be worth more than your new 10% share, hence you are losing out dropping to 10%.

                    There is indeed evidence. Economic inclusion is a high priority issue for the IMF. High inequality is negatively associated with macroeconomic stability and sustainable growth—core to the Fund’s mandate in promoting systemic, balance of payments, and domestic stability.

                    https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/Policy-Papers/Issues/2018/06/13/pp060118howto-note-on-inequality

                    You state home ownership is in decline globally as if it's a good thing.

                    The ability of less people to afford a home is an indication all is not well in an economy, and you are right, this isn't limited to NZ. But that is not a good thing.

                    While the prison population is the result of individual decisions, it's the wider circumstances that influences and helps shape the decision process. As a society, we can't turn a blind eye to the wider role we play (fiscally and politically) in people's personal choices as it will prevent the right solutions from being found.

                    The unemployment benefit pays little and has high churn. It's no longer enough to live off so is far from a disincentive. And if you fall ill and can no longer work, you are destine to a life of poverty as the supported living benefit is also no longer enough to live off. Hence, the massive increase of emergency benefits being issued.

                    The welfare state has become the first port of call for too many due to low incomes (remember your declining share) and the increase of the working poor. WFF is an employer subsidy taking pressure off wage demands and fails to give enough or any to the poor that aren't actually working. Which Key himself admitted and which is why he kept it on the National party agenda.

                    • Shadrach …
                      14 July 2019 at 10:35 pm

                      “Why would I want to do that when more socialist countries like Norway are doing so well?”

                      Except that Norway is not socialist. https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreydorfman/2018/07/08/sorry-bernie-bros-but-nordic-countries-are-not-socialist/#3d5058bd74ad

                      “I didn't claim people were forced to buy. Was highlighting these items continue to be beyond the salaries and wages of the majority as the cost of life's necessities (like housing) are robbing them of their discretionary income.”

                      You said they were purchased ‘on tick’. If they are beyond their income, why are they buying them?

                      “Purchasing a TV etc is generally a one off expense albeit spread out over time if ticked up. So while purchases like this will have an impact on household budgets, it won't be the main driver of fiscal hardship. Therefore, the interconnection would be small.”

                      But you claimed the funds are borrowed, meaning there is a close connection. You’re dancing across a number of contradictory arguments.

                      “There is indeed evidence. Economic inclusion is a high priority issue for the IMF. High inequality is negatively associated with macroeconomic stability and sustainable growth—core to the Fund’s mandate in promoting systemic, balance of payments, and domestic stability.”

                      That’s debatable. Very debatable. The evidence of actual economies is that the free market is reducing poverty while increasing inequality.

                      “You state home ownership is in decline globally as if it's a good thing.”

                      No, I state it to put your saying it is a bad thing in a global perspective. Home ownership is not a right.

                      “The ability of less people to afford a home is an indication all is not well in an economy, and you are right, this isn't limited to NZ. But that is not a good thing.”

                      In the UK, home ownership has not been an indication of how well the economy is doing. The idea of home ownership has been an unattainable notion for many for a very long time, and yet people live comfortably.

                      “While the prison population is the result of individual decisions, it's the wider circumstances that influences and helps shape the decision process.”

                      Not really. To end up in jail requires a particularly serious misdemeanour. That misdemeanor takes a particularly bad set of choices by the individual that most of us don’t take.

                      “The unemployment benefit…”

                      …is just one of a raft of welfare measures available in NZ.

                      “ It's no longer enough to live off so is far from a disincentive.”

                      And yet some do.

                      “The welfare state has become the first port of call for too many due to low incomes (remember your declining share) and the increase of the working poor.”

                      You’re doing it again. A declining share doesn’t mean lower income people get less.

                      “WFF is an employer subsidy taking pressure off wage demands and fails to give enough or any to the poor that aren't actually working.”

                      No it’s an income redistribution. Employers pay market rates. They don’t pay less simply because of WFF. WFF should be replaced with a tax free threshold, targeted at genuinely low income families, not middle class welfare.

                    • Incognito …
                      14 July 2019 at 10:39 pm

                      FWIW, that was a great exchange between Shadrach and you, and I applaud you for that. Credit where and when credit is due.

                    • The Chairman …
                      16 July 2019 at 4:14 pm

                      I said a "more" socialist country opposed to your suggestion I move to a Communist country. And Norway is (albeit not fully) a more socialist country than a Communist country. Additionally, socialist countries tend to be based on a mixed economy, which Norway is.

                      I said the reason people were putting such items on tick is because it was beyond their discretionary income. And because they are not everyday items there impact on household budgets would be limited, and not the main driver of fiscal hardship such as the high and ongoing weekly cost of accommodation. Therefore, you are either trying to intentionally spin my words for the sake of scoring a point or it could be you genuinely misunderstood.

                      While the free market may have lifted people in developing countries out of 'extreme' poverty, the same can't be said for developments here in NZ. For example, the number of children living in poverty increased from 12% in 1986 peaking to 24% in 2001. It declined somewhat (with the impact of WFF and and the global boom) but is now (latest data, 2018) sitting at 23%. So not only has inequality worsen, poverty in NZ has almost doubled since 1986. Not improved.

                      Home ownership is not a legal right, but accommodation is a necessity. Moreover, increasing home ownership is a sign of growing and widely shared prosperity, hence is a good thing. Thus, its decline is not.

                      Child poverty in the UK is almost at record highs, sitting at over 30%. Clearly, their economy is not as "comfortable" as you claim.

                      Wider circumstances do indeed influences and shape the decision making process. It impacts us in all manners of ways. From our investment choices right through to whether or not someone will commit suicide or being put into a position they need to break the law. Activism being merely one example. Moreover, wider circumstances such as the poor being more likely to go to jail than an executive also comes into play.

                      Not only is declining share Of GDP a lower income (as clearly explained above with your new 10% share equating to less than a new 15% share you missed out on by dropping to 10%) it also has wider negative, macro and political impacts.

                      Again from the IMF:

                      Equality, like fairness, is an important value in most societies. Irrespective of ideology, culture, and religion, people care about inequality. Inequality can be a signal of lack of income mobility and opportunity – a reflection of persistent disadvantage for particular segments of the society. Widening inequality also has significant implications for growth and macroeconomic stability, it can concentrate political and decision making power in the hands of a few, lead to a suboptimal use of human resources, cause investment-reducing political and economic instability, and raise crisis risk.

                      https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/sdn/2015/sdn1513.pdf

                      As for WFF being a employer subsidy, even Matthew Hooton gets it.

                      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12091904

                    • The Chairman …
                      16 July 2019 at 4:22 pm

                      @Incognito

                      Re your comment 14 July at 10:39 pm

                      yes

  5. reason 5
    9 July 2019 at 8:34 am

    rump is horrific self serving bullshitter …. People who claim to like him are sucked in by what he says …. as just like every other bullshitter .. he is a con artist who does not deliver on what he said.

    Racists love his dog whistles, especially the ‘build a wall to keep out the invaders’, These idiots deserve to be deceived, and so it is ,,,Their nasty stupidity is being milked by dangerous fool smart enough to say the moronic things their dumb bad ears love to hear….

    Trump is totally unable to ' seal the border' …. Unless he wants the usa to have a great depression again.

    Sealing the entire border between the countries, meanwhile, would cause economic chaos. In 2017, about $558 billion in goods flowed across the U.S.- Mexico border in both directions, making Mexico our third-biggest trading partner for goods

    47 official entry ports, which process more than 1 million people and about $1.7 billion in commerce every day.

    https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-na-us-mexico-border-misconceptions/

    Unfortunately and just like our own dirty mucksters, the national party ,,,, Trump goes after the racist vote, and flames their ugly paranoid delusions ,,, That means he will probably ramp up the cruelty towards migrants and refugees …A consolation prize to his angry inbreed voter base.

  6. Obtrectator 6
    9 July 2019 at 8:53 am

    Trying to get my head around how this good-news puff about Rwanda:

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/africa/114036137/rwanda-is-a-shining-example-of-good-news-from-africa

    – can be reconciled with what we're being told here about backers of ongoing violence in the Democratic Republic of Congo:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/08/warlord-bosco-ntaganda-democratic-republic-of-the-congo-congolese

  7. WeTheBleeple 7
    9 July 2019 at 9:21 am

    Microsoft are rolling out new Service Agreements and Privacy Statements. I'd really appreciate a lawyer type taking a look for we who lack sufficient legalese.

  8. reason 8
    9 July 2019 at 10:10 am

    I'm putting up a link to this Aussie doco on our very very preventable christchurch mass murder tragedy …… it is very well made, and any Aussie who has watched it is way more informed than the NZ public.

    We've got a whole lot of less than honest misdirection and filtering acting against us here in NZ ,, with our 'lone wolf media ' ,,,,, Arse covering secret investigations ,,,, Not to mention all the politicians and media people keeping quiet and hoping we all forget the smears and negative stereotypes they have pumped out since the 9/11 blow back,,,,,

    Blowback that was motivated by the 'crusader' killings of 500,000 Iraq children ,,, who died quietly,,,, starved and poisoned with the old traditional crusaders weapon of siege warfare ,,, renamed as sanctions nowadays ,,,in a modern feel good touch.

    Our indifference to the ethnic cleaning and land theft ,,, still going on till this day ,,, of the Palestinian People … was also mentioned as motivation … as reported on by Robert Fisk.

    Anyway if you wish to be better informed it is a much watch …. Its quite emotional and I got really fucked off at the scope of the failings revealed … the sub-human and white disgrace / trash was posting and displaying red flags ,,, to eyes that were blind … if red was on white.

    Also ….. who knew that apart from having " Turk Slayer" written on one of his weapons … He also called for the assassination of Erdogin …

    Don't get me wrong …. Erdogin is a war criminal and Kurd killer etc etc …. But our media kept us in the dark when everyone was dumping on him for his ANZACs in coffins comments. However given the context of a networking white sub-supreme terrorist visiting his country twice…. and with the turk slayer message … and kill Erdogin directive.,

    ,,Tells me Once more NZ has been kept ignorant and manipulated … putting us in the wrong ,,, morally wrong against a creep like Erdogin …. ffs

    *The doco does off course give us the name and face of sub supreme …

    And it is emotionally upsetting … both from the tragic interviews of survivors …. and the huge red swatzstickers this killer clown was all but draped in when posting online at fascist facebook pages and other extreme right muck hole meeting points .

    • Peter Christchurh nz 8.1
      9 July 2019 at 2:09 pm

      Ok, but why did you not mention the Chinese 'crusade' in Xinjiang against the Uighurs?

      This is happening in real time. A repeat of the Nazi persecution of the Jews. Yet fee care.

      • reason 8.1.1
        9 July 2019 at 10:26 pm

        Sorry peter … I did not see your reply post sooner.

        Osama Bin Laden …. who was one of the main planners and leaders behind 9/11 was quoted using the 'crusader' label, which he attached and used to describe the crime of 500,000 dead Iraq children killed as a result of the western nation siege / sanctions.

        So I'm quoting the motivation for the 9/11 terrorists ,,,,

        9/11 spurred on a big increase in anti-muslim language smears and stereotypes worldwide ,,,, and gave the excuse for the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq, Libya.

        These wars have been endless with huge destruction …. Causing tens of millions of refugees to flee from the bombs and the war.

        The refugees from our bombs and wars have created a ' Invaders ' fear into the dumb insecure and paranoid white Europeans. … Trump and others fan their fears by using their language and agreeing with them ….

        I hope this explains it a bit better for you …. 'Cruesader' crimes was the language used and excuse given at the start of a chain of events ….. leading up to the christchurch 'killer …. and his 'invaders' excuse.

        None of the excuses given by all the terrorists involved ,,,, and I include the lies / excuses given for invading and going to war in Iraq or Afghanistan were valid.

        Bush, Blair . Clinton and Cameron ….. should have all ended up where the christchurch shooter now is … getting locked away for ever/

  9. Anne 9
    9 July 2019 at 10:13 am

    Trump is having a major fit of the sulks over the British Ambassador emails. He's not gonna work with him anymore even though he and the Ambassador have never met. He's also lashing out at Theresa May and proclaiming his pleasure she will no longer be PM soon:

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jul/08/donald-trump-we-will-no-longer-deal-with-the-british-ambassador

    I'm still trying to figure out why the leaker (whoever it was) leaked the emails in the first place. Was it because he/she was wanting to embarrass the govt., or did he/she think it important for the public to hear the truth from a top diplomat?

  10. marty mars 10
    9 July 2019 at 10:45 am

    activate!

    a great activist song and I've put some explanation of the lyrics up too 🙂



    Pukumeke is a conjunction of puku and meke, meaning ‘final blow’ in the context of the song. As in, the final power, the power to bring change ultimately lies with us.
    This is a waiata porotēhi, a protest song towards the dairy industry and other industries in NZ that are polluting our waterways and poisoning the land.

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/CU1906/S00293/te-pukumeke-baitercell-ft-rei-music-video-out-now.htm

    • Robert Guyton 10.1
      9 July 2019 at 1:21 pm

      Thanks, Marty. The timing of your post was exquisite and I hope I can share why that was with you someday soon. You'll be thrilled. Can't say more at this time.

  11. soddenleaf 11
    9 July 2019 at 12:15 pm

    Racism. We are all racists. As we can all attribute to someone's virtues based on racial origin. Maori are some of the strongest advocates of positive racism, attributing positive virtues to Maori. Well no, surely examples are needed, otherwise this is well, bad racism, racism that is unevidenced, its like heckling badly. Fair dealing would be some form of accomadation between racists where they evidance each others virtues, but no this isnt common. Since talk of racism immediate brings up one's racial divisions most people avoid the notion as it's rather dumb. Racism is dumb.

    Evolution shows us that we are all superbeings having hundreds of million of years of successful ancestors, the idea that we are dissimilar in some way significant way as to require being enslaved, mistreated, denied equality, is absurd as it is an abuse of logic.

    Religion, wealth, skin pigmentation, height, etc are continuing to be used in debates to push control of each other. As a society, rule of law isnt about denying people the opportunity of warning us who is making a special pleading, since it's nice to know who to deny jobs, to keep distance from, for good reasons, that bigots come in all forms, closed minded bad for business.

    It is wrong what happen to many, it's inevitable societies make mistakes, advancing some, it's necessary that efforts are made to rectify them. The rich are failing to deal with growing inequality.

    • reason 11.1
      9 July 2019 at 2:06 pm

      Racists do not want to address racism ….. sodden

      Did a Iwi / Kiwi racist National electioneering board fall on your head hard, giving you amnesia, makeing you numerically illiterate and unable to see our … racist …. society….

      While not committing the aggressive genocide which cleansed murdered and starved the indigenous Native Americans and Aboriginals in Australia … We did lie cheat and steal through 'legal' means …. wage war to take land ….and generally try really hard to break their culture.

      We're still attacking their well being ……

      Who do we think bears the brunt of our predatory speculation housing bubble ….

      Or our Alcohol abuse problem …. that the nats did a Dirty Politics side-step to avoid any meaningful measures to address

      Someone like Judith Collins will shit all over Maori in our Justice system … But as pointed out by the corruption exposing reporter who ended up bringing down the criminal ruling Malaysian PM and his Govt …. Judith Collins is saying things that are untrue and unbeleviable …. as she defended the biggest criminals in the world … and Nationals non-fix, of their sneaky corruption enabling tax legislation.

      Where greed combined with rich racists … shows the absolute worst about our culture.

      New Zealand has vulture investors …. ie the billionaire chandler Bro s

      http://100photos.time.com/photos/kevin-carter-starving-child-vulture

      World is plundering Africa's wealth of 'billions of dollars a year'

      aid and loans to the continent are outweighed by financial flows to tax havens

  12. Morrissey 12
    9 July 2019 at 4:09 pm

    Αντιο σας, Syriza. And good riddance.

    https://twitter.com/AliAbunimah/status/1148341706418470912

    • Adrian Thornton 12.1
      9 July 2019 at 5:04 pm

      Too right, traitorous is the only word to describe Syriza, it's too bad Tsipras wasn't removed by some sort of popular uprising earlier.

      Though I am sure Deutsche Bank would have taken good care of him had that happened.

    • reason 12.2
      9 July 2019 at 7:43 pm

      The British, usa and Israel diplomats … should all be told to piss off out of NZ until they reform and stop their warmongering,,,, their stealing,,, and acting like a weaponized lynch mob.

      What a depraved disgrace they all are …. The christchurch sick fuck shooter praised both trump and Israel …. it's easy to see why.

      The Poms are boozey has been pirates …. only good for stealing, starving children to death in Yemen…. and killing civilians with their military.

      We should get out of the five eyes lynch club …. grubby mobsters.

      Which reminds me …… Did double dipper Wayne Mapp ever state or show ,,,,, that he made an apology or compensation,,,For the killings of children and civilians …. that he involved all of us in ?.

      I'm still waiting for the slightest bit of real proof …. that he has any remorse for the pain and suffering and death and maiming that he walked himself …. and us into.

      Some people think he's remorsefull …. He's had a long time to say sorry to the victims ,,, and offer something for the lives he's destroyed.

      Because I'd like to get really rude ,,,, and tell him to fuck off and live in Israel .. a flabby but hard right wing Uber-gentile, living among uber-zionists … A kiwi war criminal living in the war criminal Apartheid state of Israel.

      Maybe he can show that he did care enough to do the two token gestures towards his …. and our victims.

      Or does he have the old white slave-masters complex ????

  13. soddenleaf 13
    9 July 2019 at 4:12 pm

    racist do not want to address racism. duh. So why box them in as racists, let them be humans like you who have feelings. You assume that all racism is racist, it's not some people have turrets? some people just mimic and don't get that it's offensive. most just want a easy life and thought being a jerk gets them what they want. If a boulder is rolling uncontrollably down a hill, you don't argue with the boulder, you point out how the smashing hurts, how the waste costs us, how the simple life…

    Anyway, Romans invaded Briton and changed Britons, Britons interbred and are much more diverse, coloured pinkies, and are as a rule unlikely to sign a treaty with Maori if they were racists. rather they knew better by then.

    • reason 13.1
      9 July 2019 at 6:45 pm

      By saying let racists be ……. your passively participating.

      And even passive actions speak louder than fine words of how equal we all are when speaking to non-racists. ….

      Its like bad behavior from a child ,,, we teach them good behavior ,,,, and everybody ends up more happy .

      Racism is also a lie ,,,,, it can make some people so sick they will kill Women, children and old people ……. Christchurch.

      I doubt you put up with other types of lies being told to you … if you know the truth you'll go 'hang on a sec, that aint right ' … and explain why.

      Racists are a bit like wife beaters … they sick on the inside, with this ugly anger that robs them of the good emotions, those which make us content, happy, satisfied and relaxed.

      So step up , its better for all .

  14. mosa 14
    9 July 2019 at 6:35 pm

    God when are we going to grow up and realise that we play other sports and not just bloody rugby!!!

    Maybe then when we get good at cricket they will get their own tv channel.

  15. Eco maori 15
    10 July 2019 at 9:28 am

    Yes a tax on the gas guzzling big vehicle.

    https://youtu.be/Xo7WjnC8ekQ

  16. Eco maori 16
    10 July 2019 at 10:52 am

    Some Eco Maori music for the minute.

    https://youtu.be/cEXhZ8PwM-Y

  17. Eco maori 17
    10 July 2019 at 11:04 am

    Some Eco Maori music for the minute.

    https://youtu.be/9XaS93WMRQQ

  18. Eco maori 18
    10 July 2019 at 6:06 pm

    Kia kaha to the youth for fighting for their future environment.

    Let the neanderthal who run this Papatuanuku your future is so special to Eco Maori

    New Plymouth students organising climate conference

    For two New Plymouth students, climate change boils down to whether or not they will have a planet on which to live out their lives.

    Jezza Vivian and Nikita Taiapa, both 17, are organising a climate conference to help the next generation get actively involved, as well as providing rangatahi with a platform to have their voices heard.

    Many of their friends don't even want to have children because of uncertainty over the future environment, Nikita said

    Ka kite ano link below

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/taranaki-daily-news/news/114105263/new-plymouth-students-organising-climate-conference

  19. Eco maori 19
    10 July 2019 at 6:27 pm

    Kia ora Newshub

    Coach Stevie I know how you feel with people taking your words and making a moanga out of a mole hill of course there are some women who beat men I have seen it as well.

    All you people who are complaining about tamariki getting there qualifications even if they could not afford to pay their fees are just not very nice people you should be feeling sorry for all the tamariki in hardship muppets.

    There you go trump is a brat full stop that was a conversation that should not have gotten leaked is trump spying on him ???????????.

    Sir David Attenborough ka pai for your highlighting the harm that climate change is going to do to our mokopuna futures. If we don't stop burning carbon the common person future looks very bleak.

    Jensen you're art is making the place better and beautiful we should be encouraging people who have great art not suppressing them kia kaha m8.

    Ka kite ano

  20. Eco maori 20
    10 July 2019 at 6:47 pm

    Kia ora te ao Maori news.

    I it is a step in the correct position on medical marijuana it can revleave a lot of pain that people are suffering.

    Biddle I thought I new the feachers I know some Biddles from Te taiwhiti.

    The ass has dropped out of the log markets thanks to trump.

    Like I have said the returns the Maori land owners get is crap if the logs have to be carted more than 2 hours only the forestry company's are making cream good money there needs to be a port on te taiwhiti coast to cut costs. I reckon that the forest company's short change Maori forest owners and pay their Pakaiha m8 more I see that behavior has been happening for hundreds of years the same can be said for stock agents ripping off Maori farmers and paying their m8 more money.

    Ka kite ano

  21. Eco maori 21
    11 July 2019 at 8:21 am

    Kia ora The Am Show.

    Lloyd you look like you're enjoying yourself in Britain.

    Ryan we need to invest in mass transport not roads we need more Railways. The line to Gisborne Te taiwhiti needs to be fixed so Ngati Porou can get more value out of our exports. Is it a coincidence that the 2 place with high Maori populations have had next to no investment in the roads or railroad. ?????.

    I heard that the tenants gave Jensen permission to paint the building with his street art it's all good Ryan the Eco Maori effect is in play Jensen art will get heaps of publicity NOW .

    The neanderthals running Our Papatuanuku to the dirt at the minute can not even listen to Wahine concerns let alone listening to our rangitahi concerns with the Papatuanuku and their futures. The 30 under 30 is a great campaign kia kaha. Rangitahi are intelligent people some can see the big picture on Humanity's reality that is we can not keep SHITTING in our own backyard in reality it's full of shit that needs cleaning up right NOW.

    I agree Sir Graham we need to nurture our rangitahi not put them down.

    Ka kite ano

  22. Eco maori 22
    11 July 2019 at 10:51 am

    Some Eco Maori music for the minute.

    https://youtu.be/5Yj4j_lZMBo

  23. soddenleaf 23
    11 July 2019 at 12:00 pm

    Good parenting Reason. Isn't calling your kid a racist when they say something racist, it's far more than that. Kids learn hate from those who teach hate towards racism and racists. Racism is just shallow thinking, as all vulgarity, yet of course has wider effects.

  24. Eco maori 24
    11 July 2019 at 2:53 pm

    Some Eco Maori music for the minute.

    https://youtu.be/tgVVG5EknuI

    Eco Maori goes to Jaycars Rotorua and Harvey Norman's and what do you know they don't sell satellite dishes for sky or other tv satellites YEA RIGHT The sandflys are playing there stupid game the Muppets

  25. Eco maori 25
    11 July 2019 at 5:06 pm

    Eco Maori thanks France for putting a Eco tax on there Air travelers all countrys need to follow there lead but use the tax to subsidize clean energy transportation. Ka pai.

    France to slap new 'ecotax' on plane tickets from 2020

    France will introduce a new charge on plane tickets from next year, with revenue used to fund environment-friendly alternatives, the country's transport minister has said.

    The "ecotax'' costing between €1.50 (NZ$2.50) and €18 euros (NZ$30.50) will apply to most flights departing in France, Elisabeth Borne said.

    The only exceptions will be for domestic flights to Corsica and France's overseas territories, and connecting flights that pass through France. It will not apply to flights arriving in France

    Murphy said the French move could boost efforts to introduce a Europe-wide tax on aviation to reflect plane travel's environmental impact Germany, Italy and some Nordics nations also have ticket taxes. Several European countries are meanwhile pushing for the VAT exemption that airline fuel enjoys in Europe to be dropped

    Germany's Environment Ministry said Tuesday it supports discussions on additional CO2-based pricing systems for air travel to reduce the industry's contribution to man-made greenhouse gas emissions, currently estimated at more than 2 per cent but forecast to grow significantly in coming decadesWhat's more, the conditions for competition between air, road and rail travel need to be made fairer,'' the ministry said in a statement. "This is something we in Europe need to achieve together ka kite ano link below.

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/travel/news/114118704/france-to-slap-new-ecotax-on-plane-tickets-from-2020

  26. Eco maori 26
    11 July 2019 at 6:29 pm

    Kia ora Newshub.

    Ka pai to Meng Foon for his new mahi as race relations Commissioner a great choice for that job.

    The Americas couple whose IV babies got mixed up looked unhappy about the time of the mix up happened the hospital tried to sweep it under the carpet tipical don't give a stuff about the people feeling both parents.

    Its is great that Middlemore hospital is getting a big money injection so that the hospital can lower the operating list its good that there is more investment going into treatment for Maori and Pacific health problems.

    Kia kaha Angela Merkel Mana Wahine .

    Ka kite ano

  27. Eco maori 27
    11 July 2019 at 6:52 pm

    Kia ora Te ao Maori News.

    Condolences to Hone Ngati Whanau I like his DJ on The Code on Maori TV.

    I agree stop the war on the poor one good thing is we now have a government that is trying its best to serve the tangata needs .It's tuff trying to live in Auckland when you are poor.

    Meng foon deserves his new mahi.

    With the James Cook not comments but Eco Maori has to let the Whanau know what is actually happening so that they can counter the bias discriminatory ways . Maori must keep trying harder when the system throws US heaps of underarm bowls kia kaha.

    Tea puia marae is preforming a excellent service for te tangata.

    I,,, you can't beat a traditional Hangi the last hakari was reka.

    I think wakakura flax pepi cots will be excellent for Maori pepi living in the . It will be a lot safer than pepi sleeping in the same bed as te Wahine.

    Ka kite ano

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