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Open mike 09/08/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, August 9th, 2019 - 144 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

144 comments on “Open mike 09/08/2019 ”

  1. SHG 1

    This is the whitest white-person thread of all time

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • SHG 1.1

      The Standard: totally not racist and not at all a totally tone-deaf echo chamber of white people

      [That’s another silly comment in a series of silly comments and you (should) know better. Your comments got moved to OM but you didn’t get booted off the site. As such, it is just a minor action to keep the flow of comments tidy, relevant and on-topic. My advice is to not read more (too much) into it – Incognito]

      • Incognito 1.1.1

        See my Moderation note @ 3:23 AM.

      • SHG 1.1.2

        The comments got moved from a place where they were relevant to a place where they were not. That’s bad moderation. Do better.

        [FYI, I did not move your comments but I fully agree with the move. Secondly, you don’t decide what Moderators here should or shouldn’t do, which means you don’t criticise or litigate moderation; asking for clarification, for example, is generally (but not always!) fine. Thirdly, I care little about the cause of disagreement for want of a better description but I do care about behaviour. That was bad commenting behaviour. Finally, it would be a silly choice IMO if you opt for a ban. Please do better – Incognito]

        • Robert Guyton

          "The bin" would have met general approval, imo.

          • SHG

            Racists don’t like being told they’re racists.

            • Robert Guyton

              So they're not realists then, racists?

              • greywarshark

                I've stretched my bubble gum as far as it will go I think, and just puffing a bit – the bubble is getting bigger – wow splatter all over my mouth. Good for another go. Got to keep pushing the envelope, I mean the gummy, and they make the strength and ingredients very long-lasting these days. I haven't anything more important to do than blow bubbles and people get quite amused at my antics.

                It is all a delaying tactic I must confess. I actually do have more important things to do but stay on hoping for some advance in the nature of progress, or the progress of nature, whatever.

        • Incognito

          See my Moderation note @ 2:09 PM.

        • weka

          I didn't move it either but I think the original comment was under one of my posts (wilding pines). It came late in the piece when I tend to let things slide more. It didn't make much sense in context and seemed a jabby, throw away comment that was trying to make a point but doing it badly. Can't really complain about it now being out of context when you didn't bother to make your point clearly*

          And yeah, please don't have a go at moderators.

          *TS does tend to reflect Pākehā values, but I'm still not sure why the wilding pine post or discussion specifically warranted comment.

  2. vto 3

    America is clearly in a state of civil war, or revolution, with a mass shooting every day…

    Or does everyone keep turning a blind eye and claim it's just a nutters with guns thing ..

    it has started. where and when will it end

    • riffer 3.1

      Hardly. With 329 million, even a tiny percentage of the population doing crazy stuff would still appear statistically significant to outsiders. Despite how mad it appears to us, I feel revolution is still some way off, and would require a near-total collapse of the financial systems before that was to occur.

      • vto 3.1.1

        I disagree. Firstly, most revolutions and civil wars involve a small percentage of the population only, particularly at the beginning. Secondly, most revolutions and upheavals begin before people notice.

        Let's look back in ten years time and see what history has to say about this and when it started..

        I would suggest pretty much every crowd at an event and every mall shopper will have this risk in their mind today and tomorrow and onwards… another indicator it is underway… the population is cowering

        • I feel love

          I saw a graph of mass shootings this year, USA at 400+ at number one, followed by 2 in India, then NZ at number 3 with one mass shooting. I also happened on an American's IG page the other day and it was just pictures upon pictures of guns, even celebrating his kids 5th birthday with guns. They really do have a problem uniquely theirs.

    • Cinny 3.2

      trump…… offers support and condolences in the wake of the latest mass shootings…. meanwhile, elsewhere in the USA, ICE is doing the biggest round up of immigrants in ten years.


      He's driving the same narrative as the shooters are using and it's revolting.

      • vto 3.2.1

        Yes he needs to be removed from office… Trump claimed the mexicans were rapists and murderers etc, so some Trump follower went and shot them…

        total madness

      • Macro 3.2.2

        Yes I posted this last night:

        Couldn't sleep last night following those images of children suddenly bereft of their parents – many of whom had been in the US for many many years working and productive people. Insane and inhumane.

        • Macro

          It gets worse!

          ICE Raids Targeted Company Whose Workers Won Discrimination Lawsuit


          The arrests targeted chicken processing plants operated by Koch Foods, one of the largest poultry producers in the U.S. Last year, Koch Foods paid out $3.75 million to settle an Equal Employment Opportunities Commission class-action suit charging the company with sexual harassment, national origin and race discrimination, and retaliation against Latino workers at one of its Mississippi plants. Labor activists say it’s the latest raid to target factories where immigrant workers have organized unions, fought back against discrimination or challenged unsafe and unsanitary conditions.

          ps This is not the infamous Koch Bros – but another group.

        • joe90

          Amoral pricks.


        • joe90

          The Geheime Staatspolizei at work.

        • Infused

          You know this happened and started under Obama right?

          [Please explain your ambiguous comment and demonstrate it was not deliberately misleading or lying – Incognito]

          • Andre

            That's fkn shameless, brazenly repeating a Queens loofah-faced shitgibbon lie. Google Obama child separation and you'll be deluged with stuff showing how wrong that statement is. Here's just one:


          • McFlock

            Who gives a fuck? Seriously, you read about kids getting left at school because their parents have been rounded up, and the best response you can come up with is Obama did it too.

            And it's obvious that this isn't a continuation of Obama's policies – because if Obama had enthusiastically followed the midnight raid programme, dolt45 would be creating DACA on steroids and naturalising everyone who gets across the border.

          • Macro


            This did not happen under Obama.

            These ICE raids began under Bush. Obama put a stop to them and these are the first raids of this nature in a DECADE!

            Stop spreading bullshit lies!

          • greywarshark

            infused It seems you are spreading lies. Do you think you are at the right address when you come here? I think that a higher standard of communication is required. Isn't there somewhere you can go who will swallow all your rats?

          • Incognito

            See my Moderation note @ 2:32 PM.

    • roblogic 3.3

      Americans are beginning to ask themselves the same question..

  3. Robert Guyton 4

    National's MP Hamish Walker puts his foot in it.

    "Intensive winter grazing is a vital practice used in Clutha-Southland by farmers. Without it, there would be serious repercussions for the area and as a flow-on effect our rural towns, such as Gore, Winton and Lumsden."

    Walker said farmers have made dramatic improvements in how they graze stock, including the fencing of waterways, the buffer zones around critical source areas and grazing crops strategically."


    • Cinny 4.1

      Yeah hamish… that's why the minister is doing something, because there is no problem…. lolz. I guess hamish doesn't get out much, or he is blind.

      • vto 4.1.1

        but we need to keep making a mess..

        because otherwise the economy will suffer..


    • Rosemary McDonald 4.2

      Keep up Mr.Guyton…they have a long term plan.


    • Gabby 4.3

      Flow on effect eh Hamey? Hur hur. Liddle kiddies can go get shat on.

  4. Robert Guyton 5

    "Clutha-Southland MP Hamish Walker, who is the associate spokesperson for agriculture, said "the protesters at Ihumātao are standing in mud – why is it only farmers being targeted and not them?"


    "Walker said winter grazing working group was "more money down the drain" and "another orchestrated attack on farmers by this Government".

    "In light of the winter grazing photos released, the Government has chosen to establish yet another group to address the issue. Instead of getting around a table and having discussions to see what work is being done, or can still be done, they react as soon as a vegan movement shouts live cattle exports or an environmentalist shouts winter grazing."


    • marty mars 5.1

      wow no wonder he's a gnat – he thick bigtime

    • greywarshark 5.2

      Disgraceful thinking – shows the mentality and lack of education about the important matters for the country and ethical standards that all farmers sons should learn about. Their schools are too busy drilling scientific and business-related knowledge into them during formal learning hours and in the rest how to keep fit and be competitive in sports. Nothing about the philosophic understanding that an advanced developed nation would know. All competition and person advancement using the money system, not human collaboration.

      I put up the link again about the UK study on the education of the wealthy and aspirational there and how parents don't care and love their children enough to give them the emotional ties that would result in a strong individual who is empathetic and understanding of others.


      Britain’s public school system has for generations produced a high proportion of its political leaders, despite the number of children attending these schools representing a tiny fraction of the larger population….

      But a British psychotherapist says schools such as Eton produce damaged individuals and very poor leaders suffering a form of “privileged abandonment.”

      Dr Nick Duffell is the founder of the boarding school survivors organisation, he himself went to Oxford and taught at a boys’ boarding school, and is the author of The Making of Them: The British Attitude to Children and the Boarding School System, and more recently, Wounded Leaders: British Elitism and the Entitlement Illusion…

  5. Robert Guyton 7

    "For New Zealanders, one "immediate and striking recommendation" was to alter diets from being high in meat and dairy, to being more balanced with plant-based food choices. This would use less land and water and emit fewer greenhouse gases, Hayward said."

    Eat plants to help the climate, IPCC report suggests

    The report suggests a lot of other things as well:


    • Pat 7.1

      Somewhat more complicated than that….

      "The report makes clear that much of the onus is on industrial, transport and other emitters to urgently cut greenhouse emissions to give food growers the friendly climate they’ll need to feed a growing and increasingly affluent global population.

      Agriculture itself is in a tricky position: its existence as an industry is non-negotiable if people are going to continue to eat."


      • Robert Guyton 7.1.1

        It's complicated alright. So many things will have to change.

      • weka 7.1.2

        affluent countries need to lower their standard of living. Low hanging fruit: eat seasonally, eat local food. These drop emissions, but also sharpen the mind around what is involved in producing food for everyone, not just the people with the most money.

        • Pat

          Considering affluent (OECD) countries are responsible for the bulk of emissions they indeed should be making the most radical lifestyle changes….that involves far more than eating habits

          • weka

            yep, I was just responding to food issue, because it's coming up a lot at the moment, and eating plants from the other side of the world isn't much of an improvement for NZers over eating NZ farmed meat.

            Also using that as example of how affluent countries can do something meaningful. Thinking that the whole world can have our lifestyles is a madness, utter madness. We have to give away some of our privilege. It won't hurt us, it might make us a better country.

            • Pat

              Given the 80/20 rule it likely would make us a better country but I wouldnt hold my breath waiting for acceptance of such thought

            • Poission

              Meat is not actually mentioned in the report,its land use changes ie deforestation, (south america asia and africa.)

              There seems to be a lot of creative reporting in the press (mostly due to the hard reading of the report under a legal framework)

              you would struggle to find that land use changes are both a source and a sink (the emission imbalance due to deforestation)

              Land is simultaneously a source and a sink of CO2 due to both anthropogenic and natural drivers, making it hard to separate anthropogenic from natural fluxes (very high confidence). Global models estimate net CO2 emissions of 5.2 ± 2.6 GtCO2 yr-1 (likely range) from land use and land-use change during 2007-16. These net emissions are mostly due to deforestation, partly offset by afforestation/reforestation, and emissions and removals by other land use activities (very high confidence) (Table SPM.1)23.There is no clear trend in annual emissions since 1990 (medium confidence) (Figure SPM.1). {1.1, 2.3, Table 2.2, Table 2.3}

              The natural response of land to human-induced environmental changes such as increasing atmospheric CO2 concentration, nitrogen deposition, and climate change, resulted in global net removals of 11.2 +/– 2.6 Gt CO2 yr–1 (likelyrange) during 2007-2016 (Table SPM.1). The sum of the net removals due to this response and the AFOLU net emissions gives a total net land-atmosphere flux that removed 6.0+/-2.6 GtCO2 yr-1 during 2007-2016 (likely range). Future net increases in CO2 emissions from vegetation and soils due to climate change are projected to counteract increased removals due to CO2 fertilisation and longer growing seasons (high confidence). The balance between these processes is a key source of uncertainty for determining the future of the land carbon sink. Projected thawing of permafrost is expected to increase the loss of soil carbon (high confidence). During the 21st century, vegetation growth in those areas may compensate in part for this loss (low confidence). {Box 2.3, 2.3.1, 2.5.3, 2.7; Table 2.3}

              They also want limits on urban expansion ie removal of agriculture land for housing etc.

              The foremost take home message is the need to increase the sink capacity.

      • Drowsy M. Kram 7.1.3

        Ever increasing humans in ever decreasing circles…

        A Standard blast from ~2 years' past – https://thestandard.org.nz/750816-2/

    • roblogic 7.2

      been reading a new book called "what the fast", by some AUT experts based off south auckland population studies and recent science into "low carb healthy fat" food. lots of healthy recipes


  6. Robert Guyton 8

    "There are now over 500 million people living in desert areas that would not have been considered deserts before the 1980s. A full quarter of the world's ice-free land mass is subject to land degradation as a result of human activity."

    I wonder how they define "land degradation" and whether they consider agriculture to be improving of degrading what was forested land?

  7. Dennis Frank 9

    Is the coalition govt really Putinesque? Dunne thinks so. Yet his reasoning actually reads better than one might expect. https://www.newsroom.co.nz/@politics/2019/08/09/743756/rewrite-this-putin-esque-referenda-bill

    "Under this Bill, Parliament will no longer determine the question to be considered, which means there will be no opportunity for any public input through the select committee process. Rather, the referendum question will be set by Order-in-Council, (that means a regulation passed by the Executive Council on the recommendation of the Cabinet, which, in turn, means that the Cabinet will effectively decide the question to be considered, without any external scrutiny)."

    I'm agnostic on this. I can see merit in using efficient practical politics to produce a cabinet consensus on the questions to be put in the referenda. Parliament's process could be messier & more time-consuming. But if it turns out to be quicker & gets the result more efficiently, why not run the cabinet decision past parliament anyway? Doing so would flush out any short-comings – which cabinet could consider as amendments – or confirm the merit of their decision.

  8. JohnP 10

    As we get to Day +4 after the police rarked things up at Ihumatao, Newsroom have done an interview with the Ihumatao camp's liaison with the police who notes that;

    "As part of reducing that footprint Tawha asked if mana whenua could move their presence to the Kaitiaki Village – an area for which they’ve been served eviction notices by Fletcher Building.

    Many school groups had bookings to do tours of the stone fields in the coming weeks and SOUL was keen to continue the educational kaupapa there, she said.

    “He said he’d talk to Fletchers, and I said we’d have to talk to our people – that was it.”

    A decision was made to halt the talks for the day until both negotiators could consult their respective parties."

    That night the cops flooded the site, presumably because someone high up heard about the request and made a massive assumption about intentions, completely messing it all up in the process.

    Obviously District Commander Rogers stands by her statement that kaitiaki had already occupied that space and that they acted on "information" that they were going to retake the village.

  9. Peter 11

    Matthew Hooton has it that Julie Ann Genter should resign over her handling of communications to do with the Wellington transport plan."Genter is a disgrace to her party and herself and should either release her letter in full or resign," he says.

    Nothing unusual in that, simple politics and perspectives.

    Something that puts a perspective on the perspective is his bit, "It has even been reported that Julie Ann Genter and another Green MP threatened to resign if the tunnel went ahead before the tram."

    It has been reported? Is that bit added to give substance or merely chucking toys out of the cot because things aren't as he wishes?

    It has been reported? If I were to report that Matthew Hooton is a fuckwit with mental health issues someone can pick that up and use that in a headline story in the country's biggest media outlet saying, " It has even been reported that Matthew Hooton is a fuckwit with mental health issues?"

    Already today on Newstalkzb news I've heard two politicians reported as saying something was or wasn't a case and then the final word being given to MP Sarah Dowie speaking directly on tape, that what they said couldn't be believed as if hers was the definitive and authoritative version of reality.

    Just another day of media with shit standards.

      • greywarshark 11.1.1

        I wish these pollies could be allowed to get on with plans that have been thought about and that offer a way forward and improvements without some carping shit coming along and throwing cow pats or other messy missiles at them in an attempt to start a stoush and stop the solution.

        • Sacha

          Doing the process properly is important though. I expect oppositions to hold governing parties accountable on such stuff. Murky spindoctors, not so much.

          • greywarshark

            How opposition parties choose to hold the governing parties accountable and for what is extremely important. When the opposition acts like a murky spindoctor they are traitors to the citizens of the country. Now that is the sort of emotive term that can bring the termites out of the woodwork!

      • dv 11.1.2

        Someone needed to sort the Wtn transport mess.

    • weka 11.2

      Fortunately its paywalled so most people won't be able to read it.

      • Cricklewood 11.2.1

        The artical on spinoff is interesting… tbh I find it a bit disapponting that the new govt is as bad as the old govt when it comes to accountablity and wearing of 'hats'.

        Cant understand the secrecy either everyone knows and understands that the Greens are pro public transport and for very good reason. They shouldnt be ashamed of using whatever leverage they have at their disposal to achieve what are very important changes in the NZ transport system.

  10. Andre 12

    WTF? How is it that jailhouse snitches can in any way be considered evidence reliable enough to be introduced at a trial without solid corroboration from non-jailhouse evidence?



    Frankly, if I were ever on a jury considering uncorroborated jailhouse snitch evidence, I'd view it as evidence the prosecutors were trying to do a frame-up.

  11. greywarshark 13

    Are Regional Councils useful and worth the money to run them or are they majorly a law unto themselves and a millstone to the Councils in their area trying to get stuff done that their constituents expect them to be in charge of?

    Arrowtown has a lot of air pollution.

    Otago Regional Councillor Michael Laws had himself called it to report burn-offs dropping ash on properties, and said the regulatory committee was ignoring increasing complaints, leading to people being more reckless with burn-offs.

    "It gives you an example of the bizarre priorities of the Otago Regional Council and their policy team, that they're trying to stop people burning wood in the dead of night, to stay warm, in their wood burner – but they refuse to do anything about the daytime pollution which is likely to have a more deleterious effect on communities," he said.


    Recently we have heard about Wellington buses, largely the work of the regional council there. I see dv is concerned about that.

    Numerous problems are arising. Should regional councils go or are they mostly okay, and problems should go to combined committees with a larger group coming from the concerned councils who can push for needed improvements to contested plans and systems?

    • greywarshark 13.1

      dv You may have been thinking of this that has come out today 9/8 in the Scoop.

      Regional Council seeks $415m for “essential” new trains to carry more people


      • dv 13.1.1

        I was recalling the change over a couple? years ago. Then went with the cheaper option, paid drivers less. Lost drivers etc. Many buses cancelled AND flyer NOT included in metlink software ETC !!!!!!

        • Dukeofurl

          That was decided by the previous regional council to the current one under the national governments edict that lowest tender MUST win.

    • Graeme 13.2

      ORC are having real difficulties. A large part of the problem is that they are Dunedin based and dominated due to population representation of the ward system, when most of the Council's work is in Central Otago and Queenstown Lakes which have little representation. ORC didn't have an office in Queenstown for 3 years after the sole staff member here died. It's a hangover from the goldrush days perpetuating Dunedin's economic model of clipping the ticket (raping and pillaging in some cases) of the Central Otago economy.

      Now that the Central Otago and Queenstown Lakes economy equals, and probably exceeds Dunedin's, especially if activity derived in Central is omitted from Dunedin, maybe it's time for a local government re-organisation around community of interest.

      A possible starting point could be DCC becoming a unitary covering the Taieri and Shag catchments, with the remainder of Central Otago and Queenstown Lakes amalgamating and also becoming unitary, or having a seperate Catchment Authority covering the Clutha catchment.

      ORC also have a huge problem with water permits that expire in 2021 and have to be renewed. Generally these permits grossly over-allocate the catchments. Since the permit holders (farmers mostly) are reluctant to accept a reduced allocation progress on renewals has been glacial at best to current situation of effectively back to square one. Government intervention is probably inevitable.

      • greywarshark 13.2.1

        That is good backgrounding Graeme thanks. Perhaps there need to be a series of meetings from gummint around the country and some new borders for local authorities drawn up.

        There was a strong call I think Nick Smith led, for Nelson and Tasman to amalgamate in a Top of the south grouping but I don't know how the city and country can co-ordinate. We have Nelson – Richmond (Tasman's main town) urban areas separated by playing grounds, settled suburbs and some industrial and farming area. This is a bit like Napier and Hastings.

        Nelson is a character town that is a Unitary Authority.

        Richmond is the growing area for housing with quite a big industrial estate. It is the headquarters for Tasman District Council which is a Unitary Authority. It abuts onto the Marlborough District Council and the West Coast District Council and Canterbury.

        The Nelson-Marlborough Regional Council was one of 13 regional councils established through the passing of the Local Government Act 1987. The council was established in the 1989 local government reforms, but disestablished only three years later in 1992, when its functions went to the unitary authorities of Nelson City Council, Tasman District Council, and Marlborough District Council.[1] Kaikoura District had belonged to the Nelson-Marlborough Regional Council but with the 1992 reform was transferred to the Canterbury Regional Council.[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson-Marlborough_Regional_Council

        Central government had a go at having a combined Nelson-Marlborough Regional Council but that was for just a few years. The Marlborough council has plenty to do with the port at Picton within its area, and the unsettling possibility of a new port being established further down the coast which only was abandoned when there were hefty earthquakes in the area. (It being a waste of capital, infrastructure and investment in Picton was not the important point – I think it suited the trucking firms and self-drive tourists mostly.)

        • Graeme

          In the south the issues are around population shifts, being the rise of the former "hinterland" and the decline of the cities. Dunedin and Invercargill are going backwards and Central Otago forwards rapidly. Where resources should be going into Central and Northern Southland they are increasingly being drawn back into the cities to maintain services there. Lumsden and Wanaka / Central Otago / Queenstown maternity being an illustration of this.

          But dramatic changes are happening with the population growth in Queenstown, Wanaka, Cromwell and Alexandra. The regional airport is now Queenstown with 10 international flights a day to 3 cities, Dunedin has less than 1 to 1 city (Brisbane), and that's marginal. Most of the passengers through Queenstown airport are going to / from somewhere outside Whakatipu, 40% from Wanaka / Central. Southland, Waitaki and South Westland are significant contributors as well. Consequently the shit has hit the fan and QLDC (75.1% shareholder in airport) has put the brakes on the airport's expansion plans as the natives were getting restless, and that's putting it diplomatically, https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/396263/queenstown-airport-expansion-plans-on-hold-after-public-vitriol

          Local and regional government structures tend to be historically based and the entrenched interests don't take kindly to reduced circumstances. Change is inevitable but it could be an interesting ride.

          • McFlock

            The bullshit maternity "hub" decisions are based on the bullshit "debt" Southern DHB has accrued because of the bullshit funding model over the last couple of decades.

            The issue you allude to with QLDC is the permanent population vs the tourist population (and I mean "permanent" not "been there ten weeks and calls themselves 'local'" syndrome) is interesting and needs to be accounted for. But what's basis for elevating Lakes District Hospital into tertiary status?

            • Graeme

              But what's basis for elevating Lakes District Hospital into tertiary status?

              Probably none, but there's a very rapidly developing case for a tertiary hospital to serve the Central Otago / Queenstown region. The time / distance thing becomes crippling, both for the patient, and the provider.

              We are currently immersed in a situation with a friend who has kidney failure coupled with onset of diabetes. The lady is in her early 70's and has alway lived life at 100 mph. She also is also caregiver to her 86 yo husband who suffered a very serious head injury about 20 years ago. They married when she was 17. His head injury means he cannot drive, and is pretty slow and unsteady at getting around.

              She has been in hospital care for two months now, with an in and out bit at the start. Over that time she's had two trips to Dunedin, one down by air and one by road, but both back by road, and one to Invercargill for a test that took 10 minutes, but resulted in a week's stay there until she was able to return to LDH. In the meantime he has soldiered on as best he can, not knowing if he'll ever see his wife again. He's had a few falls and the stress of the situation has knocked him back a lot, and worrying about him isn't helping her recovery either.

              While the care she has received is exemplary, along with the support he's getting from agencies, it's difficult to see how this is efficient, and humane, due to the distance and time involved. Multiply this out over probably hundreds of patients in varying circumstances a month along with the socialised costs, and there's got to be a better way of doing it.

      • weka 13.2.2

        Keep regional councils and adjust them to account for geographical spread. Put the main office in Alex if needed. Decentralise the district councils. I'm sure the Upper Clutha would be happy to separate from Queenstown, because of the large difference in communities and needs that QLDC is ignoring.

        • Dukeofurl

          Alexandra is outside QLDC area

          Central Otago District Councils towns are Alexandra,Cromwell Roxburgh and Ranfurly

          The lakes part of QLDC is Hawea and Wanaka areas but quickly following the Clutha gets into Cromwell and Central Otago

        • Graeme

          Amalgamation, along with strong community boards should get the best of both. Right now we need a strong hold on the rapidly changing regional issues, not more parochialism.

          The other side of QLDC "ignoring" Wanaka is that Wanaka residents are quite happy to come to Queenstown to use the airport, and contribute a considerable proportion of the considerable aircraft noise issues Whakatipu suffers, but get rather upset at the thought of their share of the noise being created in their own geography.

          Cromwell has become the defacto base for infrastructure servicing and is the logical place to base administrative services as well. A regional hospital would fit there as well, unfortunately at the expense of Dunedin and Invercargill.

          • weka

            Tthe noise and other problems with over use of flying are pretty much all on mass tourism. Maybe criticise Upper Clutha and Cromwell people for making a living from tourism.

            As I understand the Wanaka/Queenstown issues, it's about voting population and representation. If smaller areas want to stay quieter and have a say in how their communities are run (and this applies to many place in NZ), then that way of structuring councils needs to change to be more democratic.

            • Graeme

              There's just as strong, maybe stronger, an argument that we are as much 'over localed' as over touristed. Wanaka's 40% share of ZQN passengers is mostly business and locals travel, there's not much tourism there compared to Queenstown, and virtually none in Cromwell or Central. On flights I'm on and in visits to the airport I'd put the passenger mix at around 50%, or maybe more, local or other than tourist.

              Our region has experienced massive population growth, both from those that are sleeping in their own bed, and those that are hiring someone else's bed for the short to medium term. This growth is stretching the community and infrastructure and things are starting to give.

      • Ad 13.2.3

        Nice work there

        • Graeme

          Thank you. It would be nice to see these issues getting wider discussion and leadership. There's potential for things to get out of control on multiple fronts resulting in unfortunate outcomes.

          • Ad

            Stretch your legs and write a Standard post on QLDC/ORC election issues.

            Go on.

    • weka 13.3

      Laws is an idiot of epic proportions who somehow now seems to pop up occassionally on the right side of things. In this case, he's wrong. Ill health from woodfires at night in the winter is because of the long term exposure, over months. High country burnoffs last a day. There are really good reasons to not allow farmers to do them, but this isn't one of them (and if it was, farmers can burn when the wind is blowing the other way).

      Can't see how we could get rid of regional councils, they do different things than city and district councils and as bad as regional councils can be I'd hate to see them taken over by townies who have a different set of priorities. The big problem with regional councils is that not enough people vote, so farmers get to stack them with people aligned with their values.

      • Graeme 13.3.1

        Michael Laws is unfortunately only the current iteration of 'different' representative Dunstan has had on ORC, a past example was Jerry Eckoff and there will undoubtedly be many more.

        It's hard to say ORC is farmer dominated at a representative level, there's only 5 out of 12 with direct farming connections, most of the rest are technocrats closely related to the functions of the council, and half the councillors represent the Dunedin constituency, not many resource hungry farms there.

        However at a submission level rural interests loudly predominate, and pay for the best consultants.

        Agricultural burning is a fraught activity 'round these parts. It doesn't matter how careful you are, how well approved you've got the burn (that can involve up to 6 agencies, virtually none of which seem to know what the others are doing) and how well you think you've picked 'the day', it can all turn to custard and you're hosting lots of people in big red trucks with flashing lights, angry ORCs, and if you're really lucky a couple of helicopters.

        • Robert Guyton

          Why are people lighting fires in arid Central Otago?

          • weka

            Because they don't know how to farm any other way (or are willfully ignorant on it).

          • Graeme

            Mostly it's disposing of development and land clearance waste. Removing D. Fir shelter belts has produced a few good plumes this winter. Our 'turnout' was disposing of the mess from gorse clearance and willow maintenance. We've got about 10 km of deer fence we have to defend from DOC's willows, so there's an ongoing trimming program which generates a lot of slash. And that's just one med – large property, the district's covered in large, elderly and often inappropriate trees. Many of which are downright dangerous. Also just had to deal with about a ha of very large, increasingly leaning silver poplars that were in their third (at least) phase of self coppice. That generated a very large pile of firewood logs and a good sized pile of slash

            • Robert Guyton

              Slash = lignin habitat and food for fungi, the generators of soil health and wealth; why rob them of the stuff they need and instead, put it up in the air as heat and gas?

              • Graeme

                Like I said, it's a fraught exercise. The grief from the episode I described has resulted on a marked change in practices from the farm manager and owner concerned, granted we did close the airport for a little while. The remains are now composting well.

            • Robert Guyton


              Following a "very stressful" night Elliot said he was relieved on Friday morning to find the massive blaze on his land between Kurow and Waimate, which began from a controlled burn, had largely "burnt itself out".

              About 50 firefighters, nine appliances and two helicopters were called at the height of the blaze on Thursday, and a two man team monitored the fire throughout the night."


        • weka

          I was thinking farmers dominating regional councils across the country (farmers and allies), but even with the ORC they seem to have a large influence on what the council does (eg water or dairying).

          Which is odd on both counts given more people live in cities now. We need more people voting and better support for progressive candidates.

          • Robert Guyton

            "We need more people voting and better support for progressive candidates."


            "None of the local candidate nominees were presenting their plans at high schools, where there would be a lot of first time voters, Laker said.

            "You only see signs around town and that is only a face and a name. It doesn't tell you what they are running for. "

            Well, Ms Laker, your high school admin don't allow local body candidates to speak to students, donchaknow! I tried and had to jump through hoops to get anywhere at all as far as talking to students was concerned.

            In any case, were you completely unaware of the efforts to have a climate emergency declared by some of your your regional councillors? It was on the front page of The Southland Times, twice! (The Southland Times is published on-line – you're on-line, right?)


            • weka

              "Well, Ms Laker, your high school admin don't allow local body candidates to speak to students, donchaknow!"

              What?!? Is that all high schools?

          • Graeme

            The influence is at the submission and submission support level. I manage a couple or small water schemes and get to observe and engage through a recent consent renewal. It's quite a machine.

    • McFlock 13.4

      Lhaws is an arse.

      I'm not a huge fan of the ORC – even in Dunedin their treatment of public transport is abysmal. Dunno the pros and cons of splitting it or relocating head office, though.

    • weston 13.5

      I got no particular prob with councils trying to educate people concerning the desirability of burning well seasoned wood in their woodburners so long as they did so politely but beyond that they can go fuck themselves

      • greywarshark 13.5.1

        Councils had to make changes according to a register of pollution days and how bad. I think there were big changes and much better readings but still there will be obligations to keep to.

  12. greywarshark 14

    Why public systems are better then those in the private sector in the long run. Few can be trusted completely these days, and to the private sector you are just a body to insert the consumer virus into, that they hope will promote a fever to spend on their product.


  13. w00t lol 😝 … whaleoil.co.nz now redirects to Matt Blomfield’s site

  14. A 17

    Check out this dude! 8 years old and looking after everyone. Awww.. ❥


    Side note: What are Stuff doing with spelling “mori” like that? Surely they can afford software to spell Maori correctly.

  15. marty mars 18

    Very interesting

    This column is part one of three on Ihumātao. This part traces the historical injustices behind Ihumātao. Part two outlines the legal progress and rising opposition against the Fletchers Residential development, the contradiction between justice for Māori and preserving Māori as an artefact, and how the Crown has divided mana whenua. Part three examines the political implications of Ihumātao.

    Ihumātao Dr Rawiri Taonui 1. Te Riri Pākehā | The White Man’s Anger

    • Dukeofurl 19.1

      Tell the Queen ?

      hehehe too funny. The system means its the Queen who asks – on the advice of the existing PM.

    • The Al1en 19.2

      Won't happen, and Corbyn's an idiot if he truthfully believes that's going to happen.

      If Boris loses a no confidence vote, under the fixed parliament legislation, he faces a second chance ballot a couple of weeks later. Lose that, and it goes to a general election.

      The only way Corbyn has a legitimate chance of taking over is, after the first vote, he has the numbers to form a government, which is highly unlikely, even with the cons single, solitary majority.

      Whilst conservative members may not want a bar of a no deal brexit, even the most europhile of their numbers won't cross the floor and vote Corbyn's labour in. I can see them wanting a snap election to stop the pm, but never propping up the opposition and certain expulsion, deselection and self inflicted career ending suicide.


      “If the PM loses the motion of no-confidence, then under the Fixed Term Parliaments Act he would have another 14 days to win another vote.

      If he fails to secure the vote then a general election would be called on a date advised on by the PM.

      However, if another candidate can secure the confidence of the Commons then, under cabinet rules, Mr Johnson would be expected to resign and recommend the Queen appoints the other person.”

      • SPC 19.2.1

        It depends on the NI MP's backing a Labour led coalition that kept the UK in the customs union and single market and then went to a general election including a referendum on accepting the deal. If the referendum failed and the Tories won they would have a mandate for a no deal Brexit. Or not.

  16. greywarshark 20

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/396328/blackcurrants-benefit-exercise-mood-and-recovery-study 9 August 2019

    There's been studies that we've done in New Zealand and also some work done overseas, especially in the UK, that are coming together to show blackcurrants in New Zealand have some activity around helping exercise recovery and helping your body cope with the stresses of exercise."

    He said there were three ways recovery occurred – managing stresses, regulating the inflammatory pathways in the body so that tissue repair was promoted and the boosting of immunity.
    He said studies suggested New Zealand blackcurrants had higher levels of Polyphenol, which promoted this recovery. But he said more research was needed to scientifically validate the claim New Zealand blackcurrants were superior to other blackcurrants in this respect.

    Frozen currants were just as good as fresh ones, he said. The study received funding from the government.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribena 2 Feb 2018 Major blackcurrant buyer Ribena cuts NZ contracts

    This Japanese firm did not require our production in 2018 and so the growers had to hastily look what to do. Why don't NZs make things themselves. If we as a country supported our own growers, they would be sure of a certain level of sales, and then could develop an overseas interest for exporting to increase business. And note that the Wikipedia item says that Suntory changed to artificial sweeteners as a result of a sugar tax in the UK. But people wanting a natural juice that is sweetened may prefer some sugar, or honey, compared to the laboratory equivalents, and may be affected adversely by them.

    But note: 6/2/2018 https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/country/349725/health-benefits-of-nz-blackcurrants-tapped-into

    What makes the New Zealand blackcurrant better than others?

    It's the ultra-violet sunlight that really benefits the New Zealand blackcurrant-growing environment, said Ms Cushman.
    "That stimulates the berry fruit into producing very high concentrations of poly phenols, the bio-actives that give blackcurrants their physiological benefits.
    "We are also blessed to have good varieties that thrive in the New Zealand conditions," she said.

    Curranz launched the New Zealand blackcurrant product as a sports nutrition supplement, first in the UK, but now also in other countries, including New Zealand, Ms Cushman said.
    The company will be supplying High Performance New Zealand Olympic athletes for the next Olympic cycle.

    "It is a big breakthrough for the Kiwis because British athletes have been using the black currant supplements and winning and it was embarrassing that New Zealand sports people were missing out"

    We need to protect our own country's business. The idea that we are big world players is quite wrong; No matter how much we make or import we are always small.

  17. SHG 21

    It has been


    days without an incident of John Key Derangement Syndrome

    [lprent: And
    hours since the occurrence of Jacinda Ardern Derangement Syndrome (also known as ‘good ole misogynist itch’)

    If you want to make a point, then perhaps you could play with your teeny dick off my post…]

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

  18. SHG 22

    Amazing how moving a reply out from under the post that’s being replied to changes the context, geniuses.

    • greywarshark 22.1

      So there was a context. Thanks for explaining something that was of no importance to anyone with even half a brain.

  19. Eco maori 23

    More rats rats being thrown at Eco Maori.

  20. Eco maori 24

    Some Eco Maori music for the minute.

  21. Eco maori 25

    Eco Maori has seen a story about the state of Indias Awa it is not good poverty and plastic waste is a big problem there .

    Please clean up your rivers to leave the taonga wai treasure water for your mokopuna grandchildren. Aotearoa has banned single use plastic bags it is a minor inconvenience but well worth it not seeing plastic bags blowing all around the country side the effects of the ban on single use plastic bags can already be seen we will eventually ban most plastics in Aotearoa

    Plastic, poverty and paradox: experts head to the Ganges to track waste

    India’s most sacred river is also its most polluted, with plastic a major culprit. Now moves are afoot to monitor the flow of rubbish and assess its link to poverty

    Drop a plastic bottle into the Ganges and where does it end up? An all-female team of engineers, explorers and scientists is about to find out by undertaking the first expedition to measure plastic waste in one of the world’s most polluted waterways

    Following the Ganges upstream from where it empties in the Bay of Bengal to its source in the Himalayas, the National Geographic-backed expedition aims to better understand how plastic pollution travels from source to sea and provide solutions for reducing the amount that ends up in the world’s oceans.

    The 2,525 km-long Ganges is a river of extreme paradox: though worshipped by 1 billion Hindus and relied on as a water source for roughly 400 million people, it is contaminated with industrial runoff, untreated sewage and household waste. It is also one of 10 rivers responsible for 90% of the plastic that ends up at sea.

    The river is, therefore, a perfect starting point for measuring how plastic travels from land into rivers, and from rivers into the ocean, says National Geographic fellow and University of Georgia associate professor Jenna Jambeck, who is co-leading the expedition.

    “We know there’s plastic in these river environments and that the plastic is heading into the ocean,” says environmental engineer Jambeck, whose previous research found that 8 metric tons of plastic waste entering the sea every year.

    Ka kite ano link below.


  22. Eco maori 26

    Kia Ora Newshub.

    Wow a mean weather system is effecting the South Island lets hope that it doesn't make to big a Mess.

    I think the Idea that moving the cars to a different location in the Auckland region if its works and saves money run with it work smarter not harder is one of my philosophys the other is keep it simple it looks like this Idea fits both.

    What about the suppression order against Eco Maori what a joke.

    Cool teaching tamariki how to eat healthy foods at a kindergarten very good I have dropped sugar our of my diet and I have lost 10 kg and feel much better sugar should be banned too the gasoline tanks of our cars.

    Ka pai to the volunteers who have helped clean up the Awa river mess of a old dump down South Island.

    Cool Idea including models with access needs in a fashion Show that should help lift there wairua.

    A huge power cut in Britain that is not good at all lucky I harvest my power straight from Te Ra.

    Thats heaps of Sharks in Australia they are beautiful creatures that need to be treasured and protected from over exploitation by greedy people.

    Ka kite ano

  23. Eco maori 27

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News.

    It's sad that the Kua is closing after 15 years of teaching Te reo Maori Eco Maori hopes that their is plans to fill the void of this Kua closure

    The final 33 students finished today Eco Maori hopes that they can climb up to greater hights on their ladders of LIFE.

    There are 2 sides to a story the Ihumatao issue with tangata being called racist.

    It's awesome to see Tangata Whenua O Aotearoa in Australia tau toko te tangata at Ihumatao.

    The Australian Tangata Whenua have been treated very badly by the Australian government. Ka kite ano

  24. Eco maori 29

    Some Eco Maori Music for the Minute.

  25. Eco maori 30

    Its not on having tamariki starving when Te Papatuanuku produce enough food and resources for all we have to change so food is not wasted 30% of food is wasted.

    The rulers need to learn to share their lollipops sharing will be part of the changes needed to combat Human Caused Climate Change

    World hunger on the rise as 820m at risk, UN report finds

    Eliminating hunger by 2030 is an immense challenge, say heads of UN agencies

    More than 820 million people worldwide are still going hungry, according to a UN report that says reaching the target of zero hunger by 2030 is “an immense challenge”.

    The number of people with not enough to eat has risen for the third year in a row as the population increases, after a decade when real progress was made. The underlying trend is stabilisation, when global agencies had hoped it would fall.

    Millions of children are not getting the nutrition they need. The UN says the pace of progress in halving child stunting and reducing the number of low birthweight babies is too slow, which jeopardises the chances of achieving another of the sustainable development goals.

    Nearly half of all child deaths in Africa stem from hunger, study shows

    Read more

    The report is from the UN Food and Agriculture Organization, the International Fund for Agricultural Development, the UN Children’s Fund (Unicef), the World Food Programme and the World Health Organization

    Ka kite ano link below.


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