Open mike 10/08/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, August 10th, 2019 - 196 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

196 comments on “Open mike 10/08/2019 ”

  • Comments are now closed

  1. bwaghorn 1
    10 August 2019 at 7:49 am

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/114882066/fact-check-are-our-farm-systems-any-better-for-the-climate

    Farmers world wide could cut their emmisions if they learnt to farm like us!

    • Robert Guyton 1.1
      10 August 2019 at 8:04 am

      Getting worse farmers to follow our practices would be step 1.

      Changing our own practices to further cut emissions would be step 2.

      Changing the ratio of stock-farming to cropping, in favour of cropping, while at the same time promoting a vegetarian diet, would be step 3.

    • Robert Guyton 1.2
      10 August 2019 at 8:05 am

      Dave Kennedy's written about wintering of livestock in Southland.

      http://localbodies-bsprout.blogspot.com/2019/08/the-muddied-waters-of-winter-grazing.html

      • bwaghorn 1.2.1
        10 August 2019 at 8:13 am

        The rural Facebook pages I see are putting pressure on winter grazers to up their game you'll be glad to know .

        Yip a reduction in intensity on dairy farms would be good .

        Subsidizing alternative cropping for ten years would be the way forward in dairy areas .

        • Robert Guyton 1.2.1.1
          10 August 2019 at 8:17 am

          I agree that agreed-upon changes to farming could/should be subsidised. Farmers should be assisted in reducing their greenhouse gas outputs, to maintain their viability. Much discussion could be had about how this could be done. Assistance with tree-planting schemes is the obvious first step, perhaps under the umbrella of “alternative cropping”, especially when that involves carbon sequestration, job creation and food production. Nut trees are an example, or coppiced sycamore for fuel, perhaps. It’s a space where a lot of exciting thinking could take place.

          • greywarshark 1.2.1.1.1
            10 August 2019 at 10:12 am

            Can we look to see who or what is moving into that space and help the action along? Just by publicising what is being done, the meetings being held, the start with planting, any helpful funding, the training and pastoral care being given to young workers used and whether this is plantation, or agroforestry (not aggroforestry)!

    • Robert Guyton 1.3
      10 August 2019 at 8:13 am

      From bwaghorn's farming link:

      "The IPCC report highlighted the impact of deforestation, where countries were essentially swapping native forest for food cultivation.

      "This means those countries are trying to prioritise feeding their own people. And that's being done at the expense of the environment," Hoggard said."

      Haven't we New Zealanders "swapped" vast swathes of native forest for … farming?

      • bwaghorn 1.3.1
        10 August 2019 at 8:19 am

        In the past but apart from the big removal of pine forest in the central north island the general direction has been more trees in this country for the last 40 years.

        • Robert Guyton 1.3.1.1
          10 August 2019 at 8:28 am

          In the past…the vast bulk of farmland was created and there was no need for more deforestation, aside from nibbling at the edges. We did the damage then, so can't claim now to be blameless.

        • Pat 1.3.1.2
          10 August 2019 at 9:19 am

          You might want to add Canterbury to that list

    • phillip ure 1.4
      10 August 2019 at 8:52 am

      our m.s.m.(including rnz) are stepping up as defenders of the animal-exploitation industries…here in nz…

      and are unquestioning in their repeating of their lies/spin/bullshit…

      which is what the above link is is – an exemplar of that unthinking/factually-incorrect support…..

      • Robert Guyton 1.4.1
        10 August 2019 at 9:00 am

        Feds chief Hoggard said:

        ""We are essential to the diets of many people, in many other countries. And we do it in an extremely emissions efficient way.""

        There's much to be debated in just those tow claims. Mostly though, that's nonsense smiley

  2. phillip ure 2
    10 August 2019 at 7:56 am

    (early-adopter/long time) vegan here – steeling myself for the (long awaited/expected) flesh-eater backlash – that time is clearly now upon us..

    and a thought for all those progressives/greens/environmentalists who awake this morning salivating for pig-flesh/eggs etc..

    you do realise that the combination of yr 'progressive' ideas/beliefs – along with your (unthinking?) contributions to supporting the wholesale exploitation of/cruelty to innocent animals..(as well as helping fuck the planet – but hey..!..eh..?

    that this makes you the modern-day equivalent of that historical oxymoron – the 'good slave-owner'

    and as well as everything else that is wrong with the above picture – you do all realise that you are on the wrong side of history..eh..?

    • bwaghorn 2.1
      10 August 2019 at 8:16 am

      Welcome back .

      Let's wave a majic wand and all kiwis are vegans.

      What would you do about the feral animals that have no predators except hungry hunters .

      Releasing wolves and and a large cat would be the only option I can see.

      • Robert Guyton 2.1.1
        10 August 2019 at 8:24 am

        For those who must eat meat, hunting wild game, or buying it from their hunter-mates, would be a great solution to the issue.

    • vto 2.2
      10 August 2019 at 8:33 am

      Mr Ure, are you a hippy?

      • phillip ure 2.2.1
        10 August 2019 at 8:56 am

        vto – first give me yr definition of a 'hippy' – and i'll see if it's a fit…

        (but i would note – the hippies got so much right..)

        • OnceWasTim 2.2.1.1
          10 August 2019 at 3:21 pm

          Or a 'Mod' or a 'Rocker'? I need a box to put you in Mr Ure.

          (I suspect more Vespa than Harley, perhaps more Corduroy than Leather, probably more Homebake than P)

          (/sarc)

          • phillip ure 2.2.1.1.1
            10 August 2019 at 3:56 pm

            close..yes to the vespa – no to the leather..and yes..(historically-speaking) to the opiates – and a big no to the 'p'..(never tried homebake – had more than my fair share of heroin..)

    • Gabby 2.3
      10 August 2019 at 9:49 am

      Howmany … fleas didja kill today… eh…whoar?

      • Robert Guyton 2.3.1
        10 August 2019 at 9:53 am

        Gabby: Philip and his 3 vegan dogs once visited me in Riverton; I've never seen healthier dogs and Phil didn't look at all hippyish, fyi.

        • Psycho Milt 2.3.1.1
          10 August 2019 at 10:12 am

          You mean the same Phil who lectures us about our cruelty to innocent animals forces three carnivores to eat plants?

          • Barfly 2.3.1.1.1
            10 August 2019 at 11:04 am

            "Many people believe dogs are carnivores. In fact, dogs are omnivores, and even wolves in the wild derive nutrition from both plant and animal sources."

            Google

            • The Al1en 2.3.1.1.1.1
              10 August 2019 at 11:09 am

              Give them the choice of a carrot or a sausage and see which one they go for first.

              • Patricia Bremner …
                10 August 2019 at 11:36 am

                I don't think I could totally go vegan now. But vegetarian meals 3 to 4 times a week, with judicious choices for other meals are fine, and the resultant weight loss has been a welcome bonus.
                It has meant saving interesting recipes and learning how to use a greater variety of plant seeds flesh and leaves.

              • Robert Guyton …
                10 August 2019 at 12:10 pm

                In the case of labradors, both.

                • The Al1en …
                  10 August 2019 at 12:19 pm

                  lol. How about a bowl of carrots and a bowl of meat?

                  • Robert Guyton …
                    10 August 2019 at 1:13 pm

                    Labs? meat, carrots then the bowls.

                    • greywarshark …
                      10 August 2019 at 3:45 pm

                      You are onto it Robert. The labs I know live to eat and then a nice run, a woof and sleep.

                      Here is a link for people chewing on this tough question about the right diet.

                      https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-46459714
                      Climate change food calculator: What's your diet's carbon footprint?

                      What about serving sizes?
                      The data in the study looked at the environmental impact for 1kg of each of the different food products.

                      The graph shows the impact of beef growing in the different continents is interesting and I find Asia's water use for it puzzling.

                      I have found that I should stick to eating a couple of small potatoes 3-5 times weekly for minimum effect, compared to a block of chocolate 1-2 times weekly – not good. And that chocolate grown in de-rainforest gives more carbon than a serving of low-impact beef. So depends where and what.

                • phillip ure …
                  10 August 2019 at 12:41 pm

                  i should shoot a vid of my current dogs (two ex-pig-hunting dogs – big hulking beasts – one 17yrs old – t' other 8yrs old ) as they watch me preparing their food..

                  (both were pulled from death row – and are grateful for it.)

                  when they see that tonite they are getting a peanut sauce dressing – they almost achieve lift-off..

                  when they came into my life – (just over a yr ago) the 17 yr old was an emotional-mess (pig-hunting dogs – in the main – have a shit life)..wouldn't lift his head off the ground..was very scared..

                  he ain't 'scared' no more..

                  the 8 yr old was a physical mess – big sores on both hips etc.(from living/lying on concrete) – but mentally was strong – (that's 'cos he is a boofhead…a loveable one – but a boofhead nonetheless..)

                  both dogs are now shiny-coated/wet-nosed happy dogs..

                  and we have a carnivore dog living nearby – she likes to come by to clean up any small vestiges left from my dogs' dinner..

                  in short – carnivore dogs also luv the vegan feeds i prepare for my hounds..

                  in fact – i cd turn any dog vegan overnite..

                  and something else i have observed in over 20 yrs of having vegan dogs – is that i don't need to bathe them..

                  it takes 10-12 months to happen…but their hair returns to being serviced by the natural oils..

                  ..and both now have super-shiny coats…(no maintenance needed from me..)

                  so yeah..dogs – like humans – are omnivores – and like humans – thrive on a healthy vegan/plant-based diet..

                  (ahem..!..i also have shiny-coat/wet-nose etc..heh..!..)

                  • The Al1en …
                    10 August 2019 at 12:43 pm

                    Yeah, yeah, and if I held out a handful of flesh they wouldn't eat it?

                    • phillip ure …
                      10 August 2019 at 1:03 pm

                      of course they would..

                      why don't you look up the definition of omnivore..?

                      ..that may help you..

                    • The Al1en …
                      10 August 2019 at 1:08 pm

                      So your dogs aren't naturally vegan, you're just imposing your ideology upon them against their natural instincts.

                      So what Pyscho said at 2.3.1.1

                    • phillip ure …
                      10 August 2019 at 1:14 pm

                      you haven't looked up the definition of 'omnivore' yet – have you..?

                      i'll wait..

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      10 August 2019 at 1:17 pm

                      "So your dogs aren't naturally vegan, you're just imposing your ideology upon them against their natural instincts."

                      Dogs don't naturally live in houses either, nor ride in cars, sleep in kennels, sit on command…we're just imposing our ideology on them, eh, The Al1en!

                    • The Al1en …
                      10 August 2019 at 1:22 pm

                      Sure, RG. Domestication of dogs over thousands of years is the same as a vegan ignoring the well being of an animal by denying it the food it's body is naturally adapted for, for the sake of their own belief system.

                    • The Al1en …
                      10 August 2019 at 1:24 pm

                      Come on, PU, even you know I'm smarter than that. 😉

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      10 August 2019 at 1:31 pm

                      It has to start somewhere, The Al1en. It's started with Phil; why the anguish? Do you think he's mistreating his dogs; remember, I've seen Phil's dogs; again, pictures of health and contentment.

                    • The Al1en …
                      10 August 2019 at 1:36 pm

                      No anguish, RG, just getting to the truth of the situation, that PU's dogs are a sad experiment against the natural order of things and, as you agreed up thread, they'd eat the meat given the choice.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      10 August 2019 at 1:45 pm

                      Not convinced that the logic of your argument is sound, The Al1en. From what you said earlier, faeces is the meal-of-choice for labradors; should lab owners provide that in preference to anything else?

                    • The Al1en …
                      10 August 2019 at 2:27 pm

                      From what you said earlier, faeces is the meal-of-choice for labradors; should lab owners provide that in preference to anything else?

                      Sadly, for you, I didn't write that, so logic and argument in this case are humorously moot.

                      However, I do agree with a lot of what you write about the environment, and appreciatively acknowledge your green credentials, so while I will not take your line on the matter of ideologue fed dogs, I am predisposed to show my omnivorous side and take the veg with the meat.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      10 August 2019 at 5:57 pm

                      True, The Al1en, it was Andre who wrote,

                      "All the labs I've known have been enthusiastically coprophagic…"

                      "coprophagic" meaning, "the eating of excrement".

                      I trusted his claim, but misread Andre, for Al1en, sorry.

                      That said, it seems labs prefer poo over meat and vegetables.

                      However, I was off the mark.

                      Your denouement,

                      "so while I will not take your line on the matter of ideologue fed dogs, I am predisposed to show my omnivorous side and take the veg with the meat." is brilliant and I appreciate your finesse with language, and I thank you for your indulgence. My case is collapsed, but I'll recover from the set-back and rejoin the fray after my bath.

                      I do appreciate a focused thinker, btw. My excuse for missing the detail would be that I was all but fully engaged with customers buying heritage apple trees during our to-and-fro, I'm the selector, advisor and packager of said trees, but that's no real reason to miss a detail like the author's identity. Can I close with the claim that all dogs are ideologically-fed (aside from those who aren't)?

                      smiley

                      Robert

                • Andre …
                  10 August 2019 at 1:02 pm

                  All the labs I've known have been enthusiastically coprophagic. Lay out a nice smelly one next to the carrot and sausage, and odds are they'd go for that first.

          • phillip ure 2.3.1.1.2
            10 August 2019 at 1:20 pm

            gee..p.m..you really are an exemplar of the 'good slave-owner' i pointed out before..eh..?

            a 'progressive' with that blind-spot as big as the sun..eh..?

        • The Al1en 2.3.1.2
          10 August 2019 at 11:13 am

          Auckland to Dunedin. Must be worth a few carbon footprint steaks and roast dinners.

    • Sacha 2.4
      10 August 2019 at 10:17 am

      Phil you have tried this line of argument before over many many moons. You can find a better way than insulting most other people.

      • phillip ure 2.4.1
        10 August 2019 at 12:50 pm

        um..!..this is not 'a line of argument' – not some philosophical word-wank..

        i am arguing against the industrial cruelty that is the soupcon in most peoples' meals..

        and yes – 'for many moons'…i was an early adopter/learner..(more widespread now – have you noticed..?..more of me….less of you..?…keep watching that space..eh..?..it has just begun..)

        and that you are addicted to animal-flesh/bye-products is yr fucken problem..eh….?

        not mine..

        and yes..telling that you consider yr addiction being pointed out to you – as an 'insult'..

        in yer own words..eh..?

        • Psycho Milt 2.4.1.1
          10 August 2019 at 3:20 pm

          If you're not presenting an argument, what are you doing? In writing these comments, you must be seeking to persuade, or what's the point? I know that in the past some people with poor ability to cope with a non-standard writing style have sometimes accused you of dumping word salads on people's blogs, but this time you're practically accusing yourself of it.

          • phillip ure 2.4.1.1.1
            10 August 2019 at 4:09 pm

            quite astonishing how defensive/attacking the messanger so many modern good slave-owners are..

            hitting the marks there..aren't you p.m..?

        • Sacha 2.4.1.2
          10 August 2019 at 6:19 pm

          Phil, do you behave like this in all places or only online?

          • phillip ure 2.4.1.2.1
            10 August 2019 at 7:52 pm

            behaving like 'what?'..

            and i use my own name – so of course i am happy to engage on such matters in person/any forum..

            is there anything i have said that is untrue..?

            if you find that truth less than palatable – this is really yr issue..

            i find the industrial cruelty done to animals – just so you can eat them..

            ..kinda 'less than palatable'..

            bordering on nauseating..actually..

            and in those who self-regard as green/environmentalists – who haul out the worry-beads/wring their hands as an expression of helplessness over 'what can i do?'…

            and then wipe the animal-fats from their lips..?

            with those same hands..

            w.t.f..!…

            eh..?

            • Sacha 2.4.1.2.1.1
              10 August 2019 at 9:57 pm

              Assuming the worst of people thwarts a productive life.

            • The Al1en 2.4.1.2.1.2
              10 August 2019 at 10:00 pm

              i find the industrial cruelty done to animals – just so you can eat them..

              .kinda 'less than palatable'..

              bordering on nauseating..actually..

              Have you tried smothering it in peanut sauce? It works on your dogs.

  3. Andre 3
    10 August 2019 at 7:57 am

    There have been articles recently about how it would be too expensive for NZ to go to 100% renewable electricity. In NZ, that's utter nonsense considering that vast amount of stored hydro we already have in our existing lakes, how easy it would be for us to build new pumped hydro storage, and how cheap wind energy has become.

    Nevertheless, looking at how relatively easily the US could go 100% renewable just further highlights how shameful it is that we are still burning shit-tons of coal and gas for electricity.

    https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2019/8/9/20767886/renewable-energy-storage-cost-electricity

    • phillip ure 3.1
      10 August 2019 at 8:28 am

      a recent news report held that scotland in the first six months of the year produced 200% of its' required energy – from wind farms..

      why have we been so slow on that one..?

      given we live in quite a windy country..?

      • Andre 3.1.1
        10 August 2019 at 8:45 am

        why have we been so slow on that one..?

        Lots of reasons, none of them honourable.

        Collectively, we just don't care enough to elect a government that will prioritise making the change, and/or reward a government that does make the change.

        We have tolerated changing the structure of our electricity system to one where protecting short-term corporate profit streams from existing assets is overwhelmingly prioritised over doing the right thing for our future. Even when doing that right thing would be better for long-term economic performance.

        That's just two of the biggest factors.

      • Gabby 3.1.2
        10 August 2019 at 9:49 am

        What did they do…. on the days…. without wind philly?

        • Andre 3.1.2.1
          10 August 2019 at 11:00 am

          Scotland has days without wind?

          All of the UK, Ireland, the rest of Europe, and even Iceland have grunty grid connections. Since that spread covers a big geographic area, it would be very unusual to have low wind across the entire grid-connected area.

          • Pat 3.1.2.1.1
            10 August 2019 at 5:56 pm

            Im assuming most of Scotlands wind generation is offshore like that of Ireland and the rest of the UK….for the obvious reason the wind is more consistent

        • Naki man 3.1.2.2
          10 August 2019 at 11:11 am

          Burn coal and natural gas.

        • phillip ure 3.1.2.3
          10 August 2019 at 12:53 pm

          i guess they went and sat outside – for a pleasant change – gabby..

          • Naki man 3.1.2.3.1
            10 August 2019 at 1:22 pm

            No, they bought electricity from another company who burns coal and gas.

            • phillip ure 3.1.2.3.1.1
              10 August 2019 at 1:48 pm

              i don't know what their storage capabilities are – do you..?

              (or was that just a random orifice-pluck..?..on yr part..?..

            • Dukeofurl 3.1.2.3.1.2
              10 August 2019 at 5:51 pm

              Homes use 3x as much gas ( in energy terms) than they do electricity.

              Wind power would mean the homes have no heating, hot water or cooking. Those canny Scots ?

        • phillip ure 3.1.2.4
          10 August 2019 at 8:00 pm

          pull out the kilt..?..and go for a walk..?..feeling confident sudden gusts will not disturb anyone..?..gabby..?

      • Dukeofurl 3.1.3
        10 August 2019 at 3:28 pm

        "Recent news report held that scotland in the first six months of the year produced 200% of its' required energy – from wind farms.."

        No it doesnt. Thats because you have misread the original story , which was designed to be misleading.

        The real story was that 200% was of power consumption of homes – excluding factories ( Scotland is an industrial country) , commercial, public hospitals etc.

        Secondly Scotland like the rest of the UK , mostly relies on natural gas for residential heating, hot water and cooking. ( Not like NZ at all where gas is overall a small part of home energy use). Homes arent using much electricity, mostly appliances, lighting etc.

        The other factor with only looking at consumption, is the production of electricity uses energy as well , losses occur in every power line big and small.In a real world its the electricity PRODUCTION number to start from.

        Scotland , the supply point for North Sea gas also provides nett a considerable amount of power to England and Wales as they are part of the grid.

        So reading the headline number about 'electricity for homes' ignore the massive use of fossil fuel like gas for Scotlands homes and businesses and public facilities.

        • phillip ure 3.1.3.1
          10 August 2019 at 8:04 pm

          sigh..!..well that is wind-power well and truly debunked..

          cd someone please alert all those countries that use it..of their folly..?

          say that dukeofearl person said so…

  4. Dennis Frank 4
    10 August 2019 at 9:08 am

    Interesting interview from Kim Hill just now, ran the full hour, with a prof involved in the 2-hour doco (released July 24), The Great Hack, about Cambridge Analytica. Explores the brave new world of social control and manipulation via algorithms…

    • Dennis Frank 4.1
      10 August 2019 at 9:35 am

      "Professor David Carroll, from Parsons School of Design in New York, is one of the central figures in 'The Great Hack', a recently released Netflix documentary looking at the Cambridge Analytica/Facebook data scandal from 2018."

      "The revelations that data from tens of millions of Facebook users was being harvested and improperly used to serve targeted ads designed to influence the outcome of elections around the world (in countries including Trinidad and Tobago, Kenya, and memorably in the 2016 US Presidential Election), led Carroll to try to recover the personal data held about him through the courts."

      "After a legal battle lasting for more than two years, Cambridge Analytica's parent company finally pled guilty to criminal charges of disobeying the British data regulator, who fined it and ordered it to hand over all the data about Carroll they had collected. It would appear that he is still to receive it!" https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/saturday/audio/2018708110/david-carroll-cambridge-analytica-and-the-great-hack

    • Siobhan 4.2
      10 August 2019 at 2:38 pm

      Heres an actual study from Stanford about the power of 'fake news' in peoples voting..

      https://observer.com/2017/02/stanford-study-fake-news-hillary-clinton-election-loss/

      Allcott and Gentzkow concluded, “Our data suggest that social media were not the most important source of election news, and even the most widely circulated fake news stories were seen by only a small fraction of Americans. For fake news to have changed the outcome of the election, a single fake news story would need to have convinced about 0.7 percent of Clinton voters and non-voters who saw it to shift their votes to Trump.” They added, “For fake news to have changed the outcome of the election, a single fake article would need to have had the same persuasive effect as 36 television campaign ads.”

  5. Adrian Thornton 5
    10 August 2019 at 9:31 am

    Biden looks and sounds awful..yet again, and makes multiple gaffs on different occasions in a day of constant embarrassment for him and his team.

    Surely the Dems are going to have to pull him out soon, he looks and sounds more and more senile as the primaries grind along…but who else have they got to defend their Liberal ideology?…I guess Warren could be their fall back, although she is not a perfect fit for them, it is pretty well accepted now that the establishment Dems and most 'liberal' media are running on the mantra..anyone but Bernie.

    • Dukeofurl 5.1
      10 August 2019 at 11:38 am

      "Dems are going to have to pull him out soon"

      You have no idea how US primary campaign politics works. Who are these "dems' you talk about.

      Candidates raise their own money and run their own campaign with it. The usual process is to keep going till the candidate ( not the Dems!) runs out of money. Joining the campaign doesent require even to be 'a democrat' – as Bernie Sanders even though a Senator wasnt. There arent any party memberships.

      Actual primaries where the voters decide dont start till early next year.

      Maybe you can learn something until that happens

      • Gabby 5.1.1
        10 August 2019 at 11:51 am

        If Nancy's backers want Joe, that's who'll run.

      • Gabby 5.1.2
        10 August 2019 at 11:52 am

        before that happens dukiduki.

        • Dukeofurl 5.1.2.1
          10 August 2019 at 12:47 pm

          More complete nonsense. leaping from tree to tree with even more silly stuff doesnt make for good debate.

      • Adrian Thornton 5.1.3
        10 August 2019 at 12:42 pm

        @Dukeofurl
        No maybe you better do a refresher course in US politics, you seem to know sweet FA. The highest members of establishment democratic party were caught red handed in 2016 tipping the scales for Clinton..even Clinton arselicker and cheater for Clinter, Donna Brazile admitted that the DNC was effectively controlled by the Clinton Campaign in 2016…

        The Democratic Party's ex-interim chief has accused Hillary Clinton of seizing control of the party in exchange for funding during the 2016 campaign.

        https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41850797

        Go to the back of the class..

        • Dukeofurl 5.1.3.1
          10 August 2019 at 12:57 pm

          Vote for Clinton in Democratic primaries 16.9 mill

          Vote for Sanders 13.2 mill

          hence Clinton wins. You have had this pointed out many times. The registered democrats preferred Clinton by a wide margin ( in 2008 Clinton had a small margin over Obama in primary votes but he won the delegate vote)

          So Clinton wins the primary votes in two Presidentail campaigns and you think The DNC had their hand ( no idea of what the DNC really is) on the scales.

          The DNC doesnt run the primaries in each state , nor does it tell the voters how to vote.

          Look at who are members of the DNC , of course Clinton has over whelming support from that group .

          That doesnt give her the voters, first she had to do something you dont understand . Its called campaigning .

          Your idea of tipping scales is primary school level understanding.

          And MONEY ?
          Clinton spent $174 mill
          Sanders spent $219 mill

          Again you ignore the reality of Sanders was very well funded and still didnt win enough votes in the primaries.

          • phillip ure 5.1.3.1.1
            10 August 2019 at 1:31 pm

            you seem to be ignoring the reams of evidence of the dems actively campaigning for clinton/against sanders..

            and how they used every dirty trick in their arsenal to effect that..

            i think you need to read more widely…

            • Ad 5.1.3.1.1.1
              10 August 2019 at 2:37 pm

              It's a political party selecting a candidate, not a courtroom.

              Stop whining.

            • Dukeofurl 5.1.3.1.1.2
              10 August 2019 at 3:00 pm

              "evidence of the dems actively"

              So silly . Thats how their system works , you get elected officials AND unions to endorse you . And she did.

              Its an open contest, Sanders got heaps of endorsements too, spend more money and still lost.

              Doesnt mean "the dems" make the voters vote your way. It cant, its a devolved system. The DNC runs the convention long after the primaries are over, The individual states democratic Party run their own primaries not the DNC.

              DNC is 100s of elected officials , would be like herding cats

          • Adrian Thornton 5.1.3.1.2
            10 August 2019 at 2:19 pm

            Man you really are living in a really loud echoing bubble..don't your ears hurt?

            A. The DNC had/has either in it's direct employment or on file an incredibly deep instrustrucure in terms of human resources, and battle hardened political campaigners..many from Obama's two successful runs, not to mention Clintons own extensive and extremely potent team from her own previous run, Clinton had every single advantage any politician could ask for heading into that race.

            B. By allowing Hillary access to the levers of power with in the DNC, Clinton would have had that huge database of information that helped Mook target voters with a precision Sanders could not, thereby spending less (if that is actually the case).

            C. Hillary had an existing network of local campaigners and foot soldiers spread through out the States that Sanders was only building as the primary's unfolded, so his loss turned out to be in many ways a symbolic victory to the progressive movement, as we are seeing unfold in this election cycle.

            D. All 'liberal' media attacked,slandered and undermined Sanders relentlessly through out the primary race.

            E. I was actually talking about the Clinton loss to Trump and not about Sanders.

    • roblogic 5.2
      10 August 2019 at 11:39 am

      Anyone but Bernie *or* Tulsi (from 51s)

      https://youtu.be/WFCVut00nsI?t=51

    • Andre 5.3
      10 August 2019 at 11:47 am

      Are you saying you think the DNC should actively intervene to boost one candidate and try to suppress support for others?

      • Adrian Thornton 5.3.1
        10 August 2019 at 12:43 pm

        They did just that in 2016, and of course they will do it again..they (like you) are defending their defunct and discredited ideology, and will not go down without a fight that is for sure.

        • Andre 5.3.1.1
          10 August 2019 at 12:50 pm

          So you want them to do it for your fantasy fetish, but whine forever when you think they did it for someone else?

          • Dukeofurl 5.3.1.1.1
            10 August 2019 at 1:07 pm

            The person who only got 43% of the primary votes , but outspent Clinton is supposed to be 'the winner'.

          • Adrian Thornton 5.3.1.1.2
            10 August 2019 at 3:47 pm

            When did I say I wanted them to do it for Sanders? you [deleted].

            You and your fellow staunch defenders of the status quo are the ones who live in fantasy, a dangerous fantasy world, where it just goes back to normal for you in your little bubble…in fact as it turns out you [deleted] would rather live in a racist right wing hell hole than see any real change that might effect you personally.

            So have a nice day..

            and by nice day, I mean [deleted] you.

            [Not cool to lose your cool like that and you’re better than that – Incognito]

            • Incognito 5.3.1.1.2.1
              10 August 2019 at 4:01 pm

              See my Moderation note @ 3:47 PM.

            • Andre 5.3.1.1.2.2
              10 August 2019 at 4:18 pm

              You said about Joe Biden: Surely the Dems are going to have to pull him out soon

              Then perhaps you'd like to be a bit clearer about who "the Dems" are that might be able to do this and how they might be able to do it. And then, given that you're a vocal advocate of the candidate that's still coming second in most polls, explain why that sentiment isn't a blatant wish that something be done to improve the chances of your preferred candidate rather than letting a democratic process play out.

            • adam 5.3.1.1.2.3
              10 August 2019 at 5:52 pm

              Sheesh Adrian Thornton did you miss the memo – neo libs and fake lefties always support fascism. They are too cowardly for a real positive challenge.

              God forbid they actually behaved like decent human beings and raise a finger to actually help people – why would they – when they have their ideological purity to help them sleep at night.

      • Dukeofurl 5.3.2
        10 August 2019 at 12:46 pm

        Good luck with that.

        The party side is limited to running the primaries or caucuses.

        And at the moment , its the TV networks/ cable outlets who are running debates who maybe try to winnow the talking heads debates based on poll numbers. But thats not really a party thing.

        BTW

        "The DNC is composed of the chairs and vice-chairs of each state Democratic Party's central committee, two hundred members apportioned among the states based on population and generally elected either on the ballot by primary voters or by the state Democratic Party committee, a number of elected officials serving in an ex officio capacity, and a variety of representatives of major Democratic Party constituencies."

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_National_Committee

        The primary job of the DNC is to run the National Nominating convention, about a year away.

        The party system is highly devolved, with states democratic party having a lot of say over their primary. At the local level its organised down at the county/city level too.

        • Dukeofurl 5.3.2.1
          10 August 2019 at 3:09 pm

          Clintons agreement for a Joint fundraising with the DNC ?

          Sanders had one too –

          "Now, the JFCs aren’t loved by campaign finance or good-government experts, but they’re not entirely out of the ordinary. Before his grassroots fundraising juggernaut took off, for instance, Sanders also had an agreement for a joint fundraising committee with the DNC"

          Eventually Sanders didnt need it as his online fundraising took off and he ended up spending more then Clinton.

          https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/11/2/16599036/donna-brazile-hillary-clinton-sanders

  6. greywarshark 6
    10 August 2019 at 9:58 am

    Putting a machine between everything that we naturally need or want to do so we can't proceed independently is our biggest mistake. When the energy isn't available to us we can be helpless. I

    In an individualistic society we must find the true value of individuality, having our own thoughts, management systems, and our support people with similar understandings and trustworthy.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/world/396376/commuter-chaos-as-uk-hit-by-major-power-failures
    Commuter chaos as UK hit by major power failures
    Individuals in the train system had to provide lights in the dark caverns using their phone lights, which would eventually peter out as batteries went flat. What then – a small torch with wind-up energy source could be good to have. One tweeter said that the doors of the train were closed and they couldn't leave. Some had to be helped by police to walk through dark tunnels after being 2 hours trapped in the train. Walking out in a line with one hand on the shoulders of the person in front would be helpful for group support and guidance and passing information from the front down the line could then be done which would be encouraging.
    .
    .

    An interview on this morning was an excellent interview between Kim Hill and an expert about Cambridge Analytica and the Netflix production of The Great Hack. What an interesting and chilling thing this all is. (Our clever minds are being twisted and any morals passed on, abandoned.) There was so much to take in. One coment – some of the European countries, Germany and .. can't remember, have strong laws which are "muscularly" administered. And that the UK controlling body has all the information in its hands about the USA that was gathered which is roughly everything that is worth knowing from a manipulating POV.

    I am wondering if that is behind the Brexit excitement of the Cons. That there is a method in their madness that has not been identified. The Prof being interviewed was very alive to all the power that the system misused has and will bring if not 'reined' in (my pedantry – people keep spelling it reigned). He gave an example of the modus operandi of CA and said they look at the zeitgeist (my word) of an individual country's peoples and then know which buttons to push. I think he mentioned Trinidad and Tobago, not sure, where the country is divided and then they could work on manipulating that for their client's purposes.

    1-/8/2019 48 mins https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/saturday/audio/2018708110/david-carroll-cambridge-analytica-and-the-great-hack

    Professor David Carroll, from Parsons School of Design in New York, is one of the central figures in 'The Great Hack', a recently released Netflix documentary looking at the Cambridge Analytica/Facebook data scandal from 2018.

    The revelations that data from tens of millions of Facebook users was being harvested and improperly used to serve targeted ads designed to influence the outcome of elections around the world (in countries including Trinidad and Tobago, Kenya, and memorably in the 2016 US Presidential Election), led Carroll to try to recover the personal data held about him through the courts.

    After a legal battle lasting for more than two years, Cambridge Analytica's parent company finally pled guilty to criminal charges of disobeying the British data regulator, who fined it and ordered it to hand over all the data about Carroll they had collected. It would appear that he is still to receive it!

    • ianmac 6.1
      10 August 2019 at 10:57 am

      Don't now how to link to yesterday but Pat wrote some chilling stuff about how Big Business operates against threats. (Hope you don't mind Pat?)

      Pat7

      9 August 2019 at 10:42 pm

      From the horses mouth…

      "I’m just one person, just one reporter working from a home office in the midwest, juggling three kids with irregular writing deadlines. So the knowledge that a multibillion-dollar corporation spent so much time and attention trying to figure out how to thwart me is terrifying.

      Truth and transparency are precious commodities, the foundations for the knowledge we all need and deserve about the world we live in. Without truth we cannot know what risks we face, what protections we must make for our families and our futures.

      When corporate power is so intensely brought to silence messengers, to manipulate the public record and public opinion, truth becomes stifled. And we should all be afraid."

      https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/08/monsanto-roundup-journalist-documents

      • Rosemary McDonald 6.1.1
        10 August 2019 at 12:07 pm

        When corporate power is so intensely brought to silence messengers, to manipulate the public record and public opinion, truth becomes stifled. And we should all be afraid."

        At the risk of being labled, I've just waded my way through Andrew Wakefield's book 'Callous Disregard'. It was a slow wade as there were so many footnotes and references that my slightly Aspie brain was triggered to go and verify as many as possible…because, you know, Wakefield is this anti science, anti vax, fraudulent nutbar and you can't trust anything he writes.

        To say he was targeted is an understatement.

        And for shits and giggles I checked out what the loudest detractors of the monsanto journalist had to say about others who have the audacity to swim against the accepted science stream.

        • weka 6.1.1.1
          10 August 2019 at 12:38 pm

          being targeted (which I'm sure is true) doesn't mean his science was sound. On the other side, the people who went on to be called anti-vaxxers led a crazy movement that has resulted in one of the biggest sub-cultures of poor science I have seen. It's *very ideological, and creates a kind of blindness.

          Pre-internet and pre-Wakefield, there was a steady, low % of the population who didn't vaccinate by choice (as opposed to people who couldn't easily access health services). They were generally informed, and tended to be from families with good standards of living, diet, non-overcrowding, and thus some disease protection from that. Public health officials have not been too concerned about them, because herd immunity can handle that low %.

          What's happened post-Wakefield is a wider range of people have been scared into not vaccinating, but they're not necessarily promoting health in other ways. That's a problem when it's added to the people not vaccinating because of poverty/lack of access. We've also moved on from the days when immunity could be acquired from contracting measles, mumps or rubella.

          It's highly likely that there was concerted action by vested interests online to stir up hate against anti-vaxxers. The vitriol and authoritarianism I've seen from progressives is mind blowing.

          I think it's nigh on impossible to have a conversation about vaccination now, both sides are doing bullshit things, and the industry being part of that makes total sense.

          • Rosemary McDonald 6.1.1.1.1
            10 August 2019 at 1:09 pm

            I think it's nigh on impossible to have a conversation about vaccination now, both sides are doing bullshit things, and the industry being part of that makes total sense.

            Yes. A while back there were a few discussions here…but in a surprisingly short time the vitriol flowed toward anyone who dared to suggest that vaccine harm is real and dismissing that small number of individuals who have suffered such vaccine injuries is simply unjust. And cruel.

            My stance has consistently been that the influence of the so-called 'anti-vaxxers' is exaggerated…and that message has emerged from our Immunisation Advisory Centre…there are other factors that have led to low vaccine uptake.

            However….I am of an age and of a particular group who were aware that there were serious safety concerns with early DTP vaccines and early MMR vaccines. Scout around for interweb info from NZ on this and there is just about nothing. There should be screeds. Where has it gone? Shit happened and kids were permanently harmed and there's sweet FA in our history. Dismissed. For shits and giggles I made an OIA request for the numbers of successful ACC claims for vaccine injury since records began. Bearing in mind that only the most serious harm events are accepted….I wonder if anyone can guess at an average per year since 2005? (Which is well after the time when there were many instances of post vaccine incidents….)

            • weka 6.1.1.1.1.1
              10 August 2019 at 1:27 pm

              No idea, but very curious what the number is.

              MoH don't seem too bothered by the non-vaccinated by choice rate and appear more focused on getting to those who are not vaccinating because of poverty or lack of access. Is the IAC part of the MoH or separate?

              • Rosemary McDonald …
                10 August 2019 at 5:09 pm

                …curious what the number is.

                1376, average of 98 per year.

                And reports from CARM here…https://www.health.govt.nz/system/files/documents/topic_sheets/adverse-event-summary.pdf

                IAC is https://www.immune.org.nz/

                …based at the Auckland Uni and funding from the MOH….plus…. https://www.immune.org.nz/sites/default/files/IMACSponsorweblistAugust2018.pdf

                • weka …
                  10 August 2019 at 10:24 pm

                  that's not a low number.

                  Reading the summary, it looks like most serious adverse effects aren't permanent or long term. Which is good. But the reporting looks inadequate, and light on detail.

                  I wonder how many people getting the flu shot are told about the potential side effects. I find stats so interesting. Death or disability risk might be very low across the population but catastrophic for the few people it happens to. How do people make those decisions?

                  • McFlock …
                    10 August 2019 at 10:36 pm

                    Had the flu shot from a couple of different providers over the years. Both provided a consent form each and every time.

                    • weka …
                      10 August 2019 at 10:44 pm

                      that doesn't mean people are giving informed consent. In my experience, people are not often told the truth about adverse/side effects of drugs they are given. I'm sure this varies quite a bit by doctor.

                    • McFlock …
                      10 August 2019 at 10:56 pm

                      There's no reason to mislead or underinform. Some docs might be more time-constrained or shite comunicators than others, but that's an issue of the wider system, not immunisation or medication in general.

                      And 98 serious events per year is pretty low considering the number of vaccine doses, and that some of those might not even be related to the vaccine.

                      There's always room for improvement, but as long as the contraindication list is correctly filled in and reviewed, this shouldn't be a difficult choice to make.

                    • lprent …
                      11 August 2019 at 12:28 am

                      They always have when I get jabbed at work.

                      The only one who doesn’t is my GP if I get there before the workplace people come around. But I’ve had a number of discussions with him about various medical matters. I think that he is somewhat aware of my researching habits. However the nurse who actually does the needle runs through the litany anyway.

                    • weka …
                      11 August 2019 at 9:41 am

                      what risks do they tell you about?

                    • McFlock …
                      11 August 2019 at 5:01 pm

                      Dunno, it was months ago. List usually revolves around immunosupporessed and allergies.

                      This year an unvaxxed colleague went for the flu shot and ended up having a long sit-down with the doc as he went through a history check. As in I was due to leave after the post-jab wait before she was given the jab – and he did almost all the talking. So if you go in and ask about it, you might be surprised.

                    • weka …
                      11 August 2019 at 5:13 pm

                      Surprised about what? Many people on meds aren't aware of the known side effects. You will be because you ask. Probably same for Lynn. Same for me. But if you talk to people outside of the proactive patients, lots have general ideas but haven't read the safety sheets for instance. Stories of people that have a weird illness for months that then gets discovered as being a side effect of meds is not uncommon.

                      It might be that doctors are more careful with vaccinations, I don't know.

                      That the adverse reporting is still kind of loose is not good.

                    • Incognito []
                      11 August 2019 at 6:01 pm

                      All drugs have side effects, even the so-called ‘harmless’ ones. As always, it depends on many factors, e.g. dose, frequency, duration, condition of the patient, use of other drugs (causing so-called drug-drug interactions), diet (e.g. alcohol consumption), et cetera. The list of possible side effects can be very long (and frightening). Best thing is to ask your healthcare provider and the pharmacist.

                      If you really want to dig into it yourself as well then this is a good start: https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/Medicines/infoSearch.asp

                      Remember, no (data and information) system is perfect and no patient is the same. Many things to do with the immune and nervous/neurological systems, for example, are incomplete and/or unpredictable, which is a euphemism for saying that our current medical knowledge is somewhat limited.

                    • McFlock …
                      11 August 2019 at 5:45 pm

                      So how would you do any of it better?

        • Poission 6.1.1.2
          10 August 2019 at 12:44 pm

          The fat libel and academic collusion with big sugar.

          https://twitter.com/TheEconomist/status/1159877766667546624

          • weka 6.1.1.2.1
            10 August 2019 at 1:28 pm

            That one, as well as how the science was misapplied and taken up by authorities who should have known better, seems like the great health scandal of our time.

        • Drowsy M. Kram 6.1.1.3
          10 August 2019 at 3:02 pm

          To "swim against the accepted science stream" can be a hard row to hoe – just listen to Christine Benn (Professor in Global Health) who believes that "vaccines [are] the largest untapped resource for improving health globally.", and has had difficulty persuading the medical establishment to take her research results onboard.

          Good scientists, clinicians and other experts should review and be prepared to revise the directions of their various professional 'swims' in the light of new evidence. But experts are only human – they have limited time, limited expertise, limited intelligence, etc. They all make mistakes, many are ambitious, and some continue to cling to a favourite hypothesis (swimming in the same direction) after new evidence has shown it to be false – it’s human nature. http://sciencenordic.com/no-link-between-mmr-vaccine-and-autism

          "Autism is a developmental disability that can cause significant social, communication, and behavioral challenges. A report published in 1998, but subsequently retracted by the journal, suggested that measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine causes autism. However, autism is a neurodevelopmental condition that has a strong genetic component with genesis before one year of age, when MMR vaccine is typically administered. Several epidemiologic studies have not found an association between MMR vaccination and autism, including a study that found that MMR vaccine was not associated with an increased risk of autism even among high-risk children whose older siblings had autism. Despite strong evidence of its safety, some parents are still hesitant to accept MMR vaccination of their children. Decreasing acceptance of MMR vaccination has led to outbreaks or resurgence of measles. Health-care providers have a vital role in maintaining confidence in vaccination and preventing suffering, disability, and death from measles and other vaccine-preventable diseases."

          "5. IMPACT OF THE MMR VACCINE AND AUTISM CONTROVERSY
          In the United Kingdom, the 1998 Wakefield article had a profound impact, with subsequent decreases in MMR vaccination coverage and a dramatic increase in measles cases. Public confidence in the safety of MMR vaccine showed substantial declines in the early 2000s, possibly influenced by increasing negative media coverage of the MMR vaccine–autism controversy. MMR vaccination coverage, which had consistently been above 90% for the first dose in young children in the mid-1990s, sharply declined, dropping to just below 80% by the mid-2000s. At the same time, annual measles cases increased from<100 in the late 1990s to a peak of just over 2,000 in 2012. With the retraction of the Wakefield article in 2010 and the accumulating evidence that MMR vaccine does not cause autism, MMR vaccine acceptance and vaccination coverage recovered and stabilized in the United Kingdom. By 2010–2011, first-dose MMR vaccination coverage by age 24 months climbed to above 90% and has stayed at >90% through 2017, although coverage has fallen slightly in recent years. Measles case counts have decreased, and, in 2016, measles was declared eliminated from the United Kingdom."

          https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/pdf/10.1146/annurev-virology-092818-015515 [first posted online on April 15, 2019. (Changes may still occur before final publication.)]

            • Drowsy M. Kram 6.1.1.3.1.1
              10 August 2019 at 5:00 pm

              Measles in the U.K. (from Rosemary's link)

              Year No. of cases No. of deaths % of deaths
              1940 409,521 857 0.2 %
              1950 367,725 221 0.06 %
              1960 159,364 31 0.02 % [~1 in 5000]
              1970 307,408 42 0.014 %
              1980 139,487 26 0.019 % [~1 in 5000]
              1990 13,302 1 0.008 %
              2000 2,378 1 0.04 %
              2010 2,235 0 0 %

              This data shows a large decrease in the number of measles cases in the UK (presumably due to vaccination and other public health programmes plus increased hygiene in the home/community), dropping to between 1000 and 6000 measles cases per annum over the last two decades (since 1996).

              The % of measles cases resulting in death has also been decreasing. From 1989 there have (thankfully) been fewer than 5 deaths per year. When the number of deaths gets this low, the annual % death rate jumps around a fair bit, from a high of 0.12% (~1 in 800; 3 deaths in 1999), to 0 % (no deaths in 1994, 1996, 2003, 2005, 2010, 2014, 2015). wink

              "In high income regions of the world such as Western Europe, measles causes death in about 1 in 5000 cases, but as many as 1 in 100 will die in the poorest regions of the world. Worldwide, measles is still a major cause of death, especially among children in resource-poor countries. In 2016 about 90,000 people died of measles. This was the first year on record when global measles deaths fell below 100,000 a year. However, in 2017 global measles deaths rose by over 20% to 110,000 deaths – over 300 deaths a day. This increase was due to gaps in vaccination coverage." http://vk.ovg.ox.ac.uk/vk/measles

              That link also contains a graph of number of measles cases per annum from 1996 – 2018; 2012 and 2013 were the UK’s worst years in that period.

              In the last decade, New Zealand's best years (from WHO data) were 2013 (17 cases), 2015 (11 cases) and 2017 (15 cases) – since 2012 (when measles was declared eradicated in NZ) all cases have supposedly originated overseas.

              2019 hasn't been such a good year, with 499 cases (and 175 hospitalisations) as of 9 August (could all of those be from overseas?) Still, barring a case of measles in a highly compromised individual, we'd be unlikely to see a measles death in NZ even at these elevated numbers. Big thanks and shout-out to NZ's public health workers. https://www.immune.org.nz/diseases/measles

              https://www.immune.org.nz/hot-topic/measles-overseas-and-new-zealand

  7. Poission 7
    10 August 2019 at 10:21 am

    The ghost of christmas to come.

    The BBC understands that two power supply plants – one a traditional gas and steam-fired power station in Cambridgeshire, the other a huge wind-turbine farm in the North Sea – failed at about 16:00 BST.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-49300025

    • greywarshark 7.1
      10 August 2019 at 10:45 am

      'Twas them terrorists done it?

      • Poission 7.1.1
        10 August 2019 at 10:54 am

        Vikings ?

        EnAppSys, an energy consultancy, said the blackout may have been caused by the unexpected shutdowns of the Hornsea offshore wind farm, which is owned by the Danish wind farm company Orsted, and the Little Barford gas-fired power plant, owned by German utility giant RWE.

        https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/aug/09/power-cut-hits-london-and-south-east-england

        • Dukeofurl 7.1.1.1
          10 August 2019 at 12:22 pm

          The deeper reason

          "National Grid data showed both of the generators dropped from the grid at around the same time. The twin outages caused a sudden loss of frequency of the electricity grid, to below 49Hz, which would have caused certain parts of the network to disconnect automatically, causing the power cuts.

          The Grid is a dynamic system, the current flow is always changing , the voltage is within a small range , but the frequency is a narrow band. Outside those ranges will cause electrical equipment to fail so its cut off instead

        • greywarshark 7.1.1.2
          10 August 2019 at 1:06 pm

          Cripes hadn't someone paid them their regular monthly lease payment? Why should a Danish company give previous EU member UK some latitude, they have shifted the location of their political leanings? Also Germany. Oh UK what are you doing, turning yourself into an unfriendly power from being an integrated member in Europe. The corrupted Cons have a sideways slide when confronted on anything real.

          • Poission 7.1.1.2.1
            10 August 2019 at 1:26 pm

            Well the UK seems to have a history of deadlinism and trade agreements expiring before renewal on the 31st October.

            https://twitter.com/holland_tom/status/1158479269493989377

            • Dukeofurl 7.1.1.2.1.1
              10 August 2019 at 2:49 pm

              EU has an even more recent history of having to make decisions it didnt want until the very last minute.

          • Dukeofurl 7.1.1.2.2
            10 August 2019 at 2:37 pm

            The reason is failure of two separate power supply at almost the same time. Not management decisions. Fairly common. Just more unusual two at roughly same time

            • greywarshark 7.1.1.2.2.1
              10 August 2019 at 2:46 pm

              It is of course actually a management failure because there should be some back up in hand if such a thing happened, unlikely but needed to be envisaged.

              • Dukeofurl …
                10 August 2019 at 3:17 pm

                Doesnt work like that. Are you saying a a ghost power station should have been on instant standby – the frequency loss is detected in milliseconds and computers shut off the consumers just as quick, otherwise major damage occurs to grid equipment and some consumers equipment.

                There would be dozens of power stations of all types active at the time, and cables connecting to France and Netherlands.

                The scary part is the grid is under higher stress and more likely to fail in mid winter from single point failures not mid summer.

  8. ianmac 8
    10 August 2019 at 10:52 am

    Paul Goldsmith. All you wanted to know about him, or not!

    In 2005, Goldsmith published his biography of Don Brash. While notionally independent at the behest of the book's publisher, Penguin, the book was in fact paid for by friends of Brash.

    Despite protestations of the book's independence, leaked emails published by Nicky Hager after the election showed the book was indeed not as independent as Brash and Goldsmith had let on when it was published.

    A future very Right Wing Leader for National?

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/114877115/national-portrait–paul-goldsmith-a-career-of-tradeoffs (Thomas Coughlan often spins anti Government spinning.)

    • millsy 8.1
      10 August 2019 at 1:53 pm

      When this guy gets his hands on the finance portfolio, he is going to make Ruth's 1991 budget look like the Communist Manifesto.

      • bwaghorn 8.1.1
        10 August 2019 at 4:15 pm

        Yip but atleast the actiod clown is in the right fucking party not like that douglas piece of shit.

        • greywarshark 8.1.1.1
          10 August 2019 at 5:25 pm

          Why is a shit from National to be preferred to a shit from Labour? Your reasoning is wonky it seems to me.

          • bwaghorn 8.1.1.1.1
            10 August 2019 at 5:42 pm

            Douglas should never have been in labour he was far right . A wolf in sheeps clothing who hated the working classes.

            Scratch the surface and national hates the working classes so it fits that douglas 2.0 belongs in nact.

  9. A 9
    10 August 2019 at 11:11 am

    Pentagon experimenting with balloons that can track multiple vehicles at a time. Data is saved so it can be reviewed later. They must have had this a decade ago so I assume it's only just been ok'ed for public knowledge.

    https://www.autoblog.com/2019/08/07/pentagon-radar-balloons-tracking-vehicles/

  11. greywarshark 11
    10 August 2019 at 1:37 pm

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/world/396391/all-aboard-cathedral-courts-controversy-by-installing-fairground-ride

    This illustrates the same problem that we have in Christchurch (this is in Norwich UK). Visionaries of today say this lovely fairground ride is a great way to view the cathedral, and enjoy the experience in a new way no doubt.

    Old hands won't stand for it. The heavy presence of the established Church must be maintained. It is the appearance of the Church that is important, not the messages of the New Testament that need to be brought to our benighted times. I think new people will be brought into the church and i think that it should have a sort of powhiri to introduce the consumers and sports lovers to a large building that has thinking about ourselves and other people and finding our way through life as its chief goal; and every try is a goal for this institution.

    One way or another, some of the Church Ministers are going to draw people in to the venerable old piles:

    ‘The central aisle of Rochester Cathedral has also been converted into a crazy golf course’.

  12. Andrea 12
    10 August 2019 at 2:18 pm

    Wouldn't it be great if the Reserve Bank stopped punishing the savers and recommended to our dozy government that it's time to drop GST back to 10% – to match Australia's – AND 'leave more money in the pockets of 'the most vulnerable' '?

    Or is poverty abatement just talk? As usual.

    • Dukeofurl 12.1
      10 August 2019 at 2:34 pm

      A good basic idea but it benefits the well off the most. That new Audi at $110,000 will save you around $5000. Not so much on a 15 yr old Honda like mine.

      The best option is raising minimum wage as it affects the low paid the most without the well paid surfing the same wave

      • Dukeofurl 12.1.1
        10 August 2019 at 2:46 pm

        Notice a lot of 'talk' ( meaning articles in newspapers) about how much income tax ( proportion) the well off pay ….boohoo.

        While they say the lower income dont pay that much of total.

        What isnt mentioned is that with GST at 15% that was how it was designed to happen.

      • alwyn 12.1.2
        10 August 2019 at 2:48 pm

        I fact nothing at all on your 15 year old Honda.

        No GST on second-hand goods.

    • greywarshark 12.2
      10 August 2019 at 2:40 pm

      My thinking is to get on with building up infrastructure ready for the deluge or whatever plague of something coming along. Government could offer slightly better interest for savers through government bonds and get on with things in a timely manner ie steadily and using quality stuff and NZ young men and women getting training and employment who would feel then that they had something to be proud about.

      But the dozy sods have just gone the easy way to collect their money in a safe way since they abandoned citizens in 1984 to private contractors. That was on the basis that the unions weren't doing right. Now nothing is done right, everything is falling apart after receiving a quick approving pat by the 'investors'. My relative has had to pay twice for work on his house, once to the builder who was 'over-committed' and then to the subs who wouldn't give their certification till he paid them. Things fall apart, and his house would too probably if he had not kept watch and ensured proper paperwork and practice. Luckily he knows a fair bit. It's DIY but not as we know it these days. But GST lower? That is a step towards tax as a fair contribution from what people manage to make from their input into the economy; a great bit of equality with everyone paying the same, well nearly everyone.

      So I don't know if there is any capability at any level in NZ for a solid well-organised forward looking entity to manage anything. If they make a change and it doesn't work out for the pockets of the plutos, they will be unpopular. So too many pollies are too busy strutting in their expensive clothes, and glossing over everything except a few key matters that they drag out to the nth degree on the basis of 'look here, this is really important that everything is done 105% right, which will be difficult. Don't look over there, keep your mind on what we decree'.

  13. greywarshark 13
    10 August 2019 at 2:21 pm

    Uni of Canterbury Students Assocn are rebuilding the Ngaio Marsh Theatre affected by earthquake. A great NZ icon, and someone to remember.

    If you want to help the action – https://blogs.canterbury.ac.nz/intercom/2019/02/19/ucsa-ngaio-marsh-theatre-save-me-a-seat/

  14. Ad 14
    10 August 2019 at 2:32 pm

    Looks like a UK snap election is on.

    Boris has just cancelled all staff leave.

    • Dukeofurl 14.1
      10 August 2019 at 2:40 pm

      Has he recalled parliament to vote for the election as required under fixed term act ? Cant happen otherwise.

    • greywarshark 14.2
      10 August 2019 at 3:01 pm

      .
      https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49285670 Brexit: Corbyn seeks clarity on 'unconstitutional' election-time no-deal
      The Labour leader is concerned that the UK could leave the EU on 31 October, while a campaign is ongoing and before a new government is elected.

      He has written to Cabinet Secretary Sir Mark Sedwill saying such a move would be an "anti-democratic abuse of power".

      It comes amid speculation MPs will table a no-confidence motion in the PM.

      Wasn't there once a Cod War? Everyone who has an iron in the fire is full of no-confidence in the UK politicians. How can they hold their heads up? A clerk who made gaffes like this continuing one, would have been down the road with no reference. The UK seem mesmerised by the debacle going on around them. Get up and fight you silly blighters – start now and later as the hard yakka is under way you can put up the cautionary poster – 'Keep Calm and Carry On'.

      https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49302778
      Brexit: Email slip-up reveals no-deal fishing patrol 'uncertainty'
      In the event of leaving without a deal, the UK would become an independent coastal state and leave the Common Fisheries Policy, which is the EU's shared rules about how much fish countries can catch and where….

      "At this stage, there is a lot of uncertainty about the sufficiency of enforcement in a no-deal because we have 12 vessels that need to monitor a space three times the size of the surface area of the UK."

  15. joe90 15
    10 August 2019 at 4:28 pm

    Trolololo…..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Z4m4lnjxkY

    On Thursday, noted right-wing phrenology site Quillette published an op-ed (archived link) from a fella calling himself Archie Carter. Carter was a self-described Marxist-Leninist union construction worker, a devotee of Saul Alinsky, and a Mets fan — and boy, was he ever unsatisfied with his experience going to meetings of the Democratic Socialists of America. "The DSA Is Doomed," the tantalizing headline read.

    It was the reddest of red meat for Quillette. A real working class Marxist-Leninist-Alinskyist union guy talking about how he tried to go to some meetings of the Brooklyn chapter of the DSA because he was sick of the two-party system and was looking for an "alternative." He attended their meetings, and all their sit-ins and protests, only to discover just how out of touch all those latte-sipping liberals at the DSA really were with the actual working class.

    https://www.wonkette.com/right-wing-site-falls-for-fake-marxist-leninist-alinskyite-construction-worker-op-ed

  16. Jenny - How to Get there? 16
    10 August 2019 at 5:18 pm

    Democracy Now, examining the US role in Syria.

    All Leftist Assad apologists and genocide deniers need to take note

    Behind the Lines: Shane Bauer Travels to Syria to Uncover America’s Role in the Syrian War
    …..I really wanted to kind of untangle our role in that war, which, you know, is one of this century’s greatest tragedies. And I wanted to understand not just the role of, you know, Obama and diplomats, but of the special forces, of the CIA and of private citizens who joined and fought on different sides of the conflict….

    https://www.democracynow.org/2019/8/8/behind_the_lines_shane_bauer_travels?utm_source=Democracy+Now%21&utm_campaign=2ab76601fa-Daily_Digest_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_fa2346a853-2ab76601fa-192291029

    As for America’s role?

    The take home message;

    The US are in Syria for their own reasons. The US presence as disastrous and deadly for the Syrian people as it has been, has little or nothing to do with the so called regime change conspiracy theory, or even challenging the regime in any way, but more a matter of protecting their own interests. Even if this involves joining the wholesale slaughter of the Syrian people alongside the Assad regime and Russia.

    • Jenny - How to Get there? 16.1
      10 August 2019 at 5:42 pm

      Behind the Lines: Shane Bauer Travels to Syria to Uncover America’s Role in the Syrian War

      …..The battle of Raqqa was four months long, roughly 4,000 airstrikes, and 95% of those were from American jets. I think if something like Raqqa had happened in the Vietnam War, for example, it might have been one of the most sensational parts of that war. It was, you know, just a total onslaught. And, you know, the coalition claims that they were very precise in their campaign on Raqqa, but civilians that I spoke to described a campaign that was blanketing the city with bombs…..

      …… I spent a week in Raqqa. And people responded in different ways, but I would say the most common response was “We are happy to be rid of ISIS.” You know, that was kind of the main thing, that they were glad that that was over. “But why did the U.S. have to destroy our city to this degree?” You know?…..

      ……I don’t know if we’ve had a conflict like this where it’s not only a literal proxy war, but it just ripple — the ripples go so far. I mean, you can find major divisions just within the American left about the Syrian war, you know. And this is all over the world. You know, there is just — it reaches, I think, farther than we can even realize. And, you know, in some ways, I think these points that people — that people kind of focus in on, like particular chemical attacks, you know, they’re also just places that we can kind of fight these battles with each other, but in some ways, you know, they are maybe not as relevant as we make them. I mean, the last study of civilian casualties in Syria was 2016, and that put them at half a million, you know.

      NERMEEN SHAIKH: And the vast majority of whom have been killed by conventional weapons.

      SHANE BAUER: Yes. And studies have have shown that around 85% of civilian deaths have come from the Assad regime…..

      https://www.democracynow.org/2019/8/8/behind_the_lines_shane_bauer_travels?utm_source=Democracy+Now%21&utm_campaign=2ab76601fa-Daily_Digest_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_fa2346a853-2ab76601fa-192291029

  17. marty mars 17
    10 August 2019 at 5:21 pm

    The former Treaty Negotiations Minister Chris Finlayson has launched a blistering attack on the quality of state consultation with Māori over many years.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/396314/fish-sanctuary-prompts-finlayson-attack-over-lack-of-maori-consultation?

    Classic – didn't say nothing or do anything when he was minister – but decides now is a good time – what a fail

    • greywarshark 17.1
      10 August 2019 at 5:32 pm

      I thought you were smarter mm. Finlayson knew what was expected of him from his Party and had to follow the protocol and if he had tried to change it and caused a lack of settlement on the tabled considerations, he would have been out from National and perhaps delayed an inevitable deal from the Maori side, and then there might have been total pullback. It was not a conscience vote and he had to present to Maori what the government was offering, and oversee the staff involved.

    • Incognito 18.1
      10 August 2019 at 5:43 pm

      You actually read it??

      • Drowsy M. Kram 18.1.1
        10 August 2019 at 6:19 pm

        Some comments:

        "The preoccupation with ''issues'' like this is so childish it's hard to believe it's not a joke being played on the reader. ''Surely this is not serious'' is a thought that must pop into many readers' minds."

        "I only looked to see what the fuzz was all about!"

        "hair hair"

      • Robert Guyton 18.1.2
        10 August 2019 at 6:27 pm

        Nope.
        I’m not interested in hair-say.

  19. Pat 19
    10 August 2019 at 7:22 pm

    when good news is bad

    "It confirmed on Thursday that it was forgiving all outstanding debt owed by customers of its two Canadian credit cards."

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/09/chase-bank-cancels-all-credit-card-debt-for-canadian-customers

  20. Puckish Rogue 20
    10 August 2019 at 8:19 pm

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2019/08/julie-anne-genter-denies-claim-greens-used-leverage-over-let-s-get-wellington-moving.html

    'Genter denies she ever threatened to resign, telling media on Thursday: "I have not threatened to resign… I don't know why you would take the word of councillors over myself."

    Maybe she didn't offer to resign but said she would resign but its not looking good for her, I mean asking people to take her word over others but refusing to release the letter which would prove what happened…its not a good look

    • Psycho Milt 20.1
      10 August 2019 at 8:59 pm

      Is there some reason anyone other than Nat spin doctors should trouble themselves to try and find out what the fuck this letter business is all about?

    • Drowsy M. Kram 20.2
      10 August 2019 at 9:21 pm

      "its [sic] not looking good for her"; "its [sic] not a good look". “Gone, by lunchtime even” laugh

  22. Pat 22
    10 August 2019 at 9:59 pm

    Open and transparent governance…..Orr is nothing if not honest….heres our future laid out bare,

    Bernard Hickey interviews Adrian Orr

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/@pro/2019/08/09/746808/why-adrian-orr-prefers-negative-interest-rates-to-qe

  23. Robert Guyton 23
    10 August 2019 at 10:01 pm

    "Currently we produce and export enough dairy products for an estimated 34 million people who don't live here. There are significant costs borne by the rest of the community for that production in the loss of swimmable rivers, polluted aquifers, massive milk tanker damage to roads, and methane and carbon dioxide emissions to the atmosphere."

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/114861965/farmers-cant-cry-unfair-if-theyre-still-not-meeting-the-rules

  24. The Al1en 24
    10 August 2019 at 11:11 pm

    Not watching, why would I? But just noticed the score in the rugby game tonight.

    Can't help but feel sorry for that screechy fat fuck in the adverts.
    Go on boydy, woohoo. Woo hoo hoo. 😆

  25. Eco maori 25
    11 August 2019 at 6:26 pm

    Kia Ora Newshub.

    The Allblacks lost ma te wa there is plenty of time for the Allblacks to get back in form for the Rugby World Cup my brother was not happy I had to tell him about the positive things about that situation.

    The South Island is having a huge Snow storm its a bit cooler we're we are.

    Great that the Barrett whanau is supporting Down syndrome by letting the public see their daughter who has Down syndrome that will help lift the wairua of many people who have Down syndrome.

    Thats great for Our waterways our government is investing $12 million into cleaning up our estuaries.

    Ka pai JJ Phillips for stopping the train because a girl was abusing a whanau talking in their own language we have to let people know that if others are different it's not acceptable to verbally abuse people just because they are different.

    Ka kite ano

  26. Eco maori 26
    11 August 2019 at 6:49 pm

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News.

    Cool that the Kaipara harbor is getting government money to clean it up it was a major food basket for the local tangata whenua back in the day and it can be once again when it is cleaned up some one tryed to blame the demise of the tuatua on local tangata whenua with out thinking about the degradation of the tuatua environment because of the activity of all the locals farmers people driveing on the beaches ect WTF

    Awesome that tangata whenua musician have come together to produce a wiata supporting Ihumatao.

    The Hawaiians have managed to halt the building of a huge telescope on their Moanga tapu sacred mountain.

    Eco Maori agrees that tangata whenua of the Papatuanuku needs to join together to champion our rights and JUSTICE for all tangata whenua People Of The Land.

    Ka kite ano

  27. Eco maori 27
    12 August 2019 at 8:29 am

    Kia Ora The Am Show.

    I agree with Amanda the prisoner with less than 3 years to serve should have the right to vote she's correct that there are a lot of criminal that don't get locked up EXCEPT they let these criminals off because they are there actor's rats kiroie assets narks they let this type of person off on many crimes so long as they do what they are told to do. But a person like Eco Maori who respects everyone doesn't cause havoc in society but will not back down or let them intimidate ME they spend millions trying to set me up millions trying to ruin MY Credibility My good name WTF this behavior is the reason crimes keeps being a hindrance to our society's.

    Cameron I agree we need to invest in fish farming it has 4 positive results one export dollar 2 it takes huge pressure off our local Fishes from where Im looking they have been hammered by over fishing how do I no this well 20 years ago there was boat loads of fish being land in Napier today only about 30% of that volume is being landed there was always a emergency job for me unloading fishing boats NOT ANYMORE. 3 our Whenua has enough pressure on it Deep sea fish farming will create export dollar with minimal damage to our environment 4 it spreads our risk not to many eggs in one basket if dairy got to grow that big 30 billion our environment would have turned into a big Mess.

    Jason its great that the Wallabies won it will keep the Allblacks on their toes good for Papatuanuku Rugby.

    That's a good Idea Grant Robinson having dinner with the highest bidder off trade me James has lymphoma cancer all the best.

    We had one blast of Thunder and Lightning and some rain here in the Bay Im going to make sure all my solar equipment is well earth .

    Ka kite ano

  28. Rapunzel 28
    12 August 2019 at 8:38 am

    The real irony is from what I have been able to find out those on home detention are not prevented from voting and plenty of those are the biggest fraudsters in NZ, on that basis alone the restriction is ridiculous.

  29. Eco maori 29
    12 August 2019 at 5:00 pm

    Eco Maori say have more stories about the students Strikes as this championship for the students to be left a environment that is healthy for all is their goal. What be that a grandchild telling there grandparents that they are in reality ruining their future environment the neanderthal who are running Papatuanuku at the minute are making a big MESS

    The Guardian view on climate crisis: what can we do?

    Curbing meat and dairy consumption is critical to tackling global heating. But the issue must not be reduced to solely

    UK students take part in a strike for the climate crisis in Westminster, London

    It’s easy to despair. The scale of the problems we face looms as large as the shadows cast by unpalatable leaders. What stirs some into action for the first time leaves others feeling simply overwhelmed. What can any one person do?

    When the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change put out a landmark report this week, warning that global heating is damaging the ability of the land to sustain humanity, many news outlets summarised it with the injunction: eat less meat. It was an easily relatable way into the story and told audiences what they could do to help – an essential part of tackling the climate crisis. It was certainly a more accessible angle than the lengthy report’s advice on issues such as smallholders and soil protection.

    The danger of such an approach is that great demands can become reduced to individual purchasing decisions, conveniently freeing politicians from making unpopular choices or businesses from reducing their profits. It isn’t a coincidence that so many issues are framed as purely personal choices. It is easier to blame dietary ignorance, sloth and greed for soaring levels of obesity than to tackle an obesogenic environment and the powerful “big food” lobby which has helped to create it. It is easier to encourage individuals to take up meditation than to tackle the social and economic factors contributing to many people’s mental health

    Deforestation has soaredin the Amazon, the world’s largest rainforest, under Jair Bolsonaro’s watch. A new report suggests that leases from the Trump administration of public lands and waters for oil and gas drilling could lead to more carbon emissions than the entire European Union contributes in a year. In this context, focusing on dinner plates can sound trivial. Relying on the conscience of individual shoppers is not a substitute for governmental commitments to drastically curb carbon emissions and introduce the laws, taxes and investment which can produce a more sustainable society

    KA KITE ANO LINK BELOW the sandflys are stuffing with my device I see they are still spraying there manufactured lies about Eco Maori all around the Papatuanuku.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/11/the-guardian-view-on-climate-crisis-what-can-we-do

  30. Eco maori 30
    12 August 2019 at 6:24 pm

    Kia ora Newshub.

    Tornadoes struck Auckland and the taranaki that is part and parcel of the Phenomenon Human Caused Climate Change Ingrid.

    Thats cool that the Railways showing the near misses of pedestrian close to being hit by a train that should make people think twice before crossing a rail line.

    Good on the commence commion for taking money petty to court for charging up to 400 %.

    That shows Eco Maori that the World system are set up to make the wealthy filthy rich the wealthy are all getting more money than they need is stuffed up.

    That's a great story Paddy and last night one I think that there needs to be more resources for tamariki with speach impediments .

    Mike I have already had my say on people in the hinaki jail voting.
    Australian flying foxes are being devastated by heatwaves affecting Australia there huge rain forest is suffering from the heatwave caused by you know what.
    Ka kite ano

  31. Eco maori 31
    12 August 2019 at 6:53 pm

    Kia Ora Te Maori News.

    I agree that Aotearoa is not keep up with the image of a free and fair society shonky drove this dumb law to ban tangata from voting while in the hinaki .

    That is needed some support for impaired tangata to get jobs.

    Awesome Te Rawawa buying that food market it looks like they are going to get their products from tangata whenua vegetable growers.

    Its ka pai that Te Rawawa is getting involved in treating waste water in there area they have heaps of great lakes that need to be treasured Ka pai to the Rotorua council for their tau toko of this Idea Mana Wahine I have seen heaps of awesome changes in Rotorua recently.

    To much seeing Waka arma racing on the Papatuanuku stage that will help lift the Tangata Whenua of Papatuanuku mana up .

    Ka kite ano P.S Eco Maori has a editor I can’t say whom it is.

The server will be getting hardware changes this evening starting at 10pm NZDT.
The site will be off line for some hours.