Open mike 11/02/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:29 am, February 11th, 2019 - 182 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

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Step up to the mike …

182 comments on “Open mike 11/02/2019 ”

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  1. James 1
    11 February 2019 at 7:43 am

    Initial unscientific poll has almost 90% of people against gender reassignment being funded by the tax payer.

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/shows/2019/02/poll.html

    Although apparently it’s a “significant issue“ for Jacinda’s government.

    • Incognito 1.1
      11 February 2019 at 7:57 am

      Agreed. Much better to let these people suffer for life and spend our hard-earned taxes on treating ordinary Kiwis with cancer. It’ll be a blow though to the gender-reassignment tourism industry. Just out of interest, how many billions of dollars are we talking about here?

      That poll isn’t just unscientific, it is polarising, populist, unhelpful and damaging any constructive debate, and is a magnet to draw people to the site and click away. I’d rather you put up decent arguments for and against but I fear that you’re simply not up to it Ed James.

      • soddenleaf 1.1.1
        11 February 2019 at 1:03 pm

        It’s been argued that children should not get such surgery… …also feminizing chemicals… …And then surely whose telling them it’s wrong to be a women inside a man’s body, surely that’s its own unique… …basic biology tells us we all start off female,why would genes switch on the male bits but not the male mind, does not make sense unless there is a evolutionary reason, that sometimes it helps society to have women in male bodies. Why make men more dominant? now a man trapped inside a women’s body, similarly why stop that, men seeing how much more risky being a women is. Sorry but I don’t believe society accords with the view that being in the wrong body, is a problem, should need rectifying… …people live with all types of discomforts that can either hold them back or make something new, surprising, unique… Now if your saying its linked to chemical pollution, then make the case, sue big chemical, otherwise it’s the cards that were dealt that way and I’m not paying for that.

    • marty mars 1.2
      11 February 2019 at 8:06 am

      Petty, paltry minded weak gnat supporter James. Stop trying to bully vulnerable people you little twerp.

    • xanthe 1.3
      11 February 2019 at 10:38 am

      “Initial unscientific poll has almost 90% of people against gender reassignment being funded by the tax payer.”

      gosh how many of those persons who are for gender reassignment are also funded by the tax payer?

      • mac1 1.3.1
        11 February 2019 at 11:07 am

        Indeed, xanthe, how many people are actually funded by the tax-payer?

        I’m one.

        Now, posting a result of an admitted unscientific poll without attempting to discuss the issues as to why people might or might not support gender reassignment is not helpful of James.

        I would say, unscientifically, that the issues have not been thoroughly aired. Such a poll is more likely to reflect people’s prejudice, or lack of knowledge, than a considered opinion.

        I heard an interview on RNZ very recently which advised caution as the age of intervention.

        James, that English therapist acknowledged the need for such work, presumably in his case funded by the NH in Britain.

      • veutoviper 1.3.2
        11 February 2019 at 11:42 am

        I don’t have time today to get together any more information, but here is a very basic summary on the Dept of Health’s website of the help available towards gender reassignment in NZ. There is help paid for by the tax payer through our public health system (including to some transgender people in prisons).

        https://www.health.govt.nz/your-health/healthy-living/transgender-new-zealanders/health-care-transgender-new-zealanders

        This includes links to more information. If you google ‘ gender reassignment medical intervention nz’ there are quite a number of other useful links. Here is that search

        https://www.google.com/search?q=gender+allocation+medical+intervention+nz&rlz=1C1LDJZ_enNZ499&oq=gender+allocation+medical+intervention+nz&aqs=chrome..69i57.23057j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

        However, there are a lot of hoops to jump through to get public financed help and IIRC this help has reduced over the last decade. Here is a Stuff article in 2014 on these aspects.

        http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/9598471/Gender-surgery-cost-too-high-for-many

        Links to the Human Rights Commission inquiry findings referred to in the Stuff article are in the Google search above.

        A link to the Ministry of Health’s document to assist health professionals with the management of trans-people seeking support, treatment and advice from health services is in the basic MOH document in my first link above.

    • bwaghorn 1.4
      11 February 2019 at 12:01 pm

      It’s a fucking self selecting poll on a show that will be mostly watched by knuckle dragging morons who think like its thick loud mouth host garner.

    • Gabby 1.5
      11 February 2019 at 7:24 pm

      That’s fine jimbo, cos I reckon at least 90% are ok with their genders.

  2. ankerawsharkP 2
    11 February 2019 at 7:49 am

    So Jacinda’s govt have some principles and aren’t always poll driven. Your point is James?

    BTW very good article on Kiwibuild on the Spinoff, which I will try to post the link when I have some time. Worth a read for those who are really interested in the housing crisis

  3. Cinny 3
    11 February 2019 at 7:58 am

    Newsflash, NZ is not Venezuela and will never ever have the massive issues they have over there.

    But nat MP’s must have been told to use the V word to scare monger people. Wonder how many more instances it will happen this week?

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/110448233/why-families-earning-100000-still-struggle

    • Muttonbird 3.1
      11 February 2019 at 8:01 am

      Wow. Once is a dumb accident. Twice is a carefully constructed plan.

      • marty mars 3.1.1
        11 February 2019 at 8:11 am

        Yep a carefully constructed plan that will fail and end up biting them on the bum. I have noticed an alignment of gnat talking points – luckily they really struggle with anything that requires working with others even their troll minions.

        • Gosman 3.1.1.1
          11 February 2019 at 8:55 am

          Why will it “bite them on the bum” exactly? It seems a very valid option for a right leaning party to point out the flaws in socialist thinking using the example of a failed socialist nation.

          • David Mac 3.1.1.1.1
            11 February 2019 at 10:04 am

            Socialism hasn’t brought Venezuela to it’s knees.

            Greedy trough frolicking at the top. Systemic corruption. US manipulations and a downward trending oil price are to blame.

            You know as well as anybody that a socialist focus in NZ is much more likely to mirror Scandinavian success stories rather than the Kalashnikov flavourings of South America.

            Simon’s comparisons are misleading false projections.

            • Shadrach 3.1.1.1.1.1
              11 February 2019 at 10:17 am

              “Socialism hasn’t brought Venezuela to it’s knees.”
              Well it’s been a major contributor.

              “You know as well as anybody that a socialist focus in NZ is much more likely to mirror Scandinavian success stories…”
              It amazes me people still repeat that nonsense.
              http://thefederalist.com/2015/08/11/scandinavia-isnt-a-socialist-paradise/

              • David Mac …
                11 February 2019 at 10:35 am

                Yes, Scandinavia has some serious problems and I’m sure a publication called The Federalist are expert at baking them up and garnishing them with bias.

                I said ‘Scandinavian success stories’, the bits they get right.

                eg: What Venezuela has done with their oil reserves vs what Norway has done with theirs.

                When living in Sweden I was struck by their ‘Come all’ welcoming nature. This quality I admired was intrinsic in the way they approached life. It’s an attitude that has played a part in creating precincts in Stockholm that are no longer safe to pass through. I think some of the problems are related to a socialist approach to life and we need to be careful not to make the same mistakes….but oh to have a Norwegian sized pension fund.

                We need to accept that we can’t say “Sure, come on in, sit by the fire and have a feed.” to everyone that wants to.

                I sort of agree with you Shadrach, there are strong examples of what not to do in Scandanavia too.

                • Shadrach …
                  11 February 2019 at 11:19 am

                  Thanks David – you clearly have some good insights. What I find is that some people (eg Bernie Sanders) hold up Scandinavia as example(s) of socialist economics at work, when the truth is that these countries have moved in the direction of free market capitalism.

                  Having no state sanctioned minimum wage and the universal school choice system are unlikely to be policies that find much favour with socialists in NZ.

                  • KJT …
                    13 February 2019 at 9:39 am

                    Yes. And note, just like us as their mixed economies have ended more towards the capitalist side of the equation, the more they go downhill.
                    Even in capitalist measures, like GDP per capita.

                    “Capitalism only works with a generous helping of socialism”

                    Venezuela is more capitalist then France, or even New Zealand, with 70% of their economy non state.

                    The USA is failing the further away they get from the excellent state education, infrastructure building and social supports they had, post WW2.

                • arkie …
                  11 February 2019 at 11:22 am

                  https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-federalist/

                  The Federalist is a news and opinion website that reports with a right wing bias that typically favors the right and denigrates the left. There is frequent use of loaded emotional language

                  The shadrach-linked article talks about the ‘homogenous’ Scandowegian countries that wouldn’t work in a ‘diverse’ place like the US. Racial dog-whistles.

                  • Shadrach …
                    11 February 2019 at 12:31 pm

                    Did you actually read the article and find fault you can enlighten us with? No, I suspect not. So just to feed your faux outrage, here’s another one https://fee.org/articles/the-myth-of-scandinavian-socialism/. And here’s a beauty from the NY Post https://nypost.com/2015/10/19/sorry-bernie-scandinavia-is-no-socialist-paradise-after-all/

                    • arkie …
                      11 February 2019 at 12:39 pm

                      https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/foundation-for-economic-education/

                      These media sources are slightly to moderately conservative in bias. They often publish factual information that utilizes loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using appeal to emotion or stereotypes) to favor conservative causes.

                      Yeah shad, i did read it hence my comment about racial dog-whistles.

                      As to your second article, it’s a semantic argument, almost all countries have a mixed economic model, neither state capitalism or unregulated markets. The point is how to regulate for the benefit of the people rather than capital.

                    • Shadrach …
                      11 February 2019 at 2:27 pm

                      I doubt you did read the article, because there is nothing in it to match your rhetoric. Calling bias without understanding the argument put forward is weak.

                      “…almost all countries have a mixed economic model, neither state capitalism or unregulated markets.”
                      Do you find it interesting that the economic success stories follow market economics, while the failures adopt socialist economic practise?

                    • arkie …
                      11 February 2019 at 4:38 pm

                      I didn’t call bias. Media bias check did. I was quoting them.

                      I’m merely pointing out that the sources you keep using are from a right-wing perspective, it’s not to dismiss what they say but that they are ideologically opposed to ‘socialism’ so they use ‘loaded emotional language’.

                      Please point out the ‘socialist economies’ you are talking about and I will point out that they are mixed economies or state capitalism, so, you know, NOT socialism.

                      People on the right use socialism as scare word, deliberately misrepresenting the term. Then they dismiss any market failure while not admitting that these failures are a consequence of capitalism.

                    • Shadrach …
                      11 February 2019 at 4:56 pm

                      “I didn’t call bias. Media bias check did. I was quoting them.”
                      So you quoted them but meant nothing by it? Yeah, right.

                      “I’m merely pointing out that the sources you keep using are from a right-wing perspective…”
                      The NY Post?

                      “People on the right use socialism as scare word, deliberately misrepresenting the term.”
                      Using the term socialism to describe the Venezuelan economy, for example, is not misrepresenting the term.

                    • arkie …
                      11 February 2019 at 5:00 pm

                      We’ve done this before shaddy. France is more ‘socialist’ than Venezuela. They both have mixed economies.

                      If that’s all you have then, well, my point is proven. Faux outrage about ‘socialism’.
                      Argumentum Ad Venezuela.

                      Also you added the NY Post article after I had responded. And that article is an opinion piece by Rich Lowry from the National Review, yet another conservative magazine so…

                    • Shadrach …
                      11 February 2019 at 9:05 pm

                      “France is more ‘socialist’ than Venezuela.”
                      Rubbish.

                      “Also you added the NY Post article after I had responded.”
                      Not after you said “the sources you keep using are from a right-wing perspective” (https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-11-02-2019/#comment-1581960). ‘Sources’. Including the NY Post.

                    • arkie …
                      11 February 2019 at 9:14 pm

                      What a well-reasoned rebuttal you have there.
                      And I’m supposed to be the outraged one here?

                      Richard Lowry is the editor of the conservative magazine The National Review, writing an opinion piece in the NY Post, so my point about sources stands.

                    • Shadrach …
                      12 February 2019 at 10:33 am

                      “…so my point about sources stands.”
                      Your point is simply that if you don’t like the political slant, you dismiss the content. That’s naïve and ignorant.

                    • arkie …
                      12 February 2019 at 10:45 am

                      What I dismiss is the ‘loaded emotive language’ used to advance a misrepresentation of ‘socialism’. You’re the one who is only reading articles you already agree with. That’s wilful ignorance. It’s naïve to think that you even understand socialism if your only ‘example’ is Venezuela.

                    • Shadrach …
                      12 February 2019 at 11:52 am

                      “You’re the one who is only reading articles you already agree with. ”
                      You have no idea what I do or don’t read. We do, however, know that you dismissed the reference because of some inane bias meter.

                      “That’s wilful ignorance. It’s naïve to think that you even understand socialism if your only ‘example’ is Venezuela.”
                      ‘Only’ example? History is littered with the failure of socialism. Venezuela just happens to be the latest misery of you eventually run out of other peoples money.

                    • arkie …
                      12 February 2019 at 12:18 pm

                      Well every article you’ve brought up and linked to dismiss ‘socialism’ is from the same right wing perspective so… I assume you read them before you posted them…

                      Your laughable equivocation of socialism and “spending other peoples money” shows the puddle-like depth of your understanding of economics in general.

                    • Shadrach …
                      12 February 2019 at 4:23 pm

                      “Well every article you’ve brought up and linked to dismiss ‘socialism’ is from the same right wing perspective so… ”
                      Well there aren’t too many sources in socialist countries free to critique. There weren’t too many in the USSR, that’s for sure.

                      “Your laughable equivocation of socialism and “spending other peoples money” shows the puddle-like depth of your understanding of economics in general.”
                      You obviously have no sense of humour. But actually socialism is about largesse with other peoples money. Which eventually runs out.

                      “Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” Winston Churchill.

                    • arkie …
                      12 February 2019 at 4:31 pm

                      Hey look! You quoted another conservative politician mischaracterising socialism! You keep swinging you’ll get a hit one day!

                      Well there aren’t too many sources in socialist countries free to critique.

                      So you admit you are only interested in reading content that says ‘socialism’ is bad then. Idealogical simpleton.

                      Also ‘laughable’ means so ludicrous as to be amusing. So I already am laughing at you, don’t you worry.

                    • Shadrach …
                      13 February 2019 at 9:25 am

                      Except for this…it isn’t a mischaracterisation.

                    • arkie …
                      13 February 2019 at 10:02 am

                      The Venezuelan Economy is 70% in private hands. The top income tax rate is 34%.

                      The French government spending is 56% of GDP. The top income tax rate is 51%.

                      So the French spend more of ‘other peoples money’ than Venezuela. By your own definition France is more ‘socialist’ than Venezuela.

                      You’re a dunce. A blinkered ideologue.

                    • Shadrach …
                      13 February 2019 at 9:49 pm

                      “So the French spend more of ‘other peoples money’ than Venezuela. By your own definition France is more ‘socialist’ than Venezuela.”

                      You don’t understand socialism. And you don’t understand economics. You’ve dishonestly cherry picked data you don’t understand and made a goose of your argument. Here’s some real data.

                      https://www.heritage.org/index/country/venezuela
                      Tax Burden
                      France 48.4
                      Venezuela 74.7

                      Economic Freedom
                      France 63.8%
                      Venezuela 25.9%

                      Fiscal Health
                      France 64.9
                      Venezuela 17.6

                      Property Rights
                      France 82.5
                      Venezuela 7.6

                      And this…this will tell you just how rotten socialism is at the core:

                      “Venezuela’s once-modern economy has collapsed into a sort of 21st century feudalism. Monetization of large public deficits, coupled with mismanagement of the state-dominated oil industry, has led to hyperinflation and shortages of foreign currency, basic goods, and industrial inputs. An economic plan launched in August 2018 included the removal of five zeroes from the currency, a massive devaluation, and another large increase in the minimum wage amid persistent ad hoc policy interventionism, heavy state control of the economy, and blatant disregard for the rule of law.”

                      “The bungling and deeply corrupt “21st Century Socialist” government’s policies have caused severe shortages of food, medicines, and other consumer goods that, combined with hyperinflation, have accompanied one of the worst economic contractions ever recorded. ”

                      “Years of interventionist and market-distorting policies, including import restrictions, expropriations, and nationalizations, have resulted in dire economic conditions. The financial system remains hobbled by state interference and uncertainty about the direction of economic policies.”

                      What a shining example of absolute failure.

                    • arkie …
                      14 February 2019 at 1:07 pm

                      You keep making my point for me.

                      I note that what you’ve quoted doesn’t refute any of the statistics I posted, you just say I’m wrong and quote another conservative thinktank.

                      Your ‘statistics’ are from the Heritage Foundation. These are their own ratings based on their conservative checklist of priorities. You are a fool.

                      These media sources are moderately to strongly biased toward conservative causes through story selection and/or political affiliation. They may utilize strong loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using appeal to emotion or stereotypes), publish misleading reports and omit reporting of information that may damage conservative causes. Some sources in this category may be untrustworthy.

                      https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/heritage-foundation/

                      Try reading this report:
                      http://cepr.net/documents/publications/venezuela_2007_07.pdf

                    • Shadrach …
                      14 February 2019 at 1:53 pm

                      “I note that what you’ve quoted doesn’t refute any of the statistics I posted, ”

                      You didn’t read the part about having ‘cherry picked’ your data? Here, I’ll be more specific

                      “The Venezuelan Economy is 70% in private hands.”
                      1. You didn’t even give a source for that.
                      2. You confuse ownership with control. When a country has such a low ranking in economic freedom and property rights, ownership is not that beneficial.

                      “The top income tax rate is 34%.”
                      The top income tax rate is irrelevant. What matters more is the overall tax burden, including indirect taxes. France has a far lower tax burden overall.

                      You clearly have no understanding of economics. It’s not hard to see how you could support socialism.

                    • arkie …
                      14 February 2019 at 2:41 pm

                      Here’s a comparison of the two nations: https://countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/france/venezuela

                      These Ratings you mention are a construction of the Heritage Foundation. They wrote them, they assigned them. They are an arch-conservative thinktank. Try reading something not put out by an organisation with an obvious political agenda. But you won’t because you also have the same agenda. Keep screaming socialism at anything vaguely left and drown out rational discussion. GTFOH

                    • Shadrach …
                      14 February 2019 at 3:39 pm

                      “These Ratings you mention are a construction of the Heritage Foundation”.

                      Nonsense. They are standard measure used by economists.

                      PS You reference uses comparisons from different years. Why are you comparing unemployment rates from nearly 3 years apart? Expenditure as a % of GDP 4 years apart? Some of the Venezuela data goes back to 2009! Seriously you have no idea.

                    • arkie …
                      14 February 2019 at 4:02 pm

                      It’s objectively better data than your subjective ‘data’. It’s sourced from a variety of international reports with a variety of biases done over a period of time. You seemingly don’t understand that I didn’t produce the links I provided. You don’t even understand your own sources. They describe their rating system and what they base it on their website.

                      Go on, have another swing at it, might get it this time!

              • patricia bremner …
                11 February 2019 at 3:46 pm

                + 1

              • KJT …
                13 February 2019 at 9:24 am

                Just like us Scandinavia has been bitten by the Neo-liberal bug in recent times. Starting the same sort of problems.

                However, like us, they have had decades of socialist building up of infrastructure and resilience.

                The right wing there is trying to fix that as fast as possible, just like ours.

            • soddenleaf 3.1.1.1.1.2
              11 February 2019 at 12:31 pm

              to its knees? you mean compared to global rapacious capitalism eating several planets…

              • cleangreen …
                11 February 2019 at 1:58 pm

                soddenleaf

                Capitalists all think the universe is theirs also no doubt.

                They can all be put on a slow burning space vehicle to the stars for all we care as we are better off without them wrecking our planet.

              • David Mac …
                11 February 2019 at 6:24 pm

                Yes, in some ways I do. I have no desire whatsoever to live in or even visit Caracas. I like it here with 24/7 electricity and the choice of 50 fruit and vege.

                Any light at the end of Venzuela’s tunnel features tankers filled with fossil fuels and square-dancing with OPEC.

                Their long-shot solutions would be illegal in NZ.

                Sweden has twice our population and a list of global brands as long as my arm. Capitalist bastards every one of them.

                People being enterprising is not wrong in itself. It comes to us naturally, we can’t help ourselves. The fault lies with the tuning of how we go about it.

                The retired men and women that spent years at Sandvik Commorant accumulated subsidised shares in the company as their tenure increased. They are a part of that company’s heritage. They go back for morning teas and check out the latest machines in tool-making. Their well-being is intrinsically linked to the job their sons and shares will do. Sandvik compete on the capitalist stage, the difference is how they come to be there.

                • KJT …
                  13 February 2019 at 9:51 am

                  And. Every one of their global brands grown with State support.

                  Paid for by their high taxation.

                  Capitalism works fine, so long as it is regulated for the social benefit of everyone concerned.

            • patricia bremner 3.1.1.1.1.3
              11 February 2019 at 3:46 pm

              + 1

          • marty mars 3.1.1.1.2
            11 February 2019 at 11:04 am

            Why not check out the whole post written about this subject.

          • Psycho Milt 3.1.1.1.3
            11 February 2019 at 1:23 pm

            It seems a very valid option for a right leaning party to point out the flaws in socialist thinking using the example of a failed socialist nation.

            Note to Labour: all commentary on National in the future should be generously peppered with references to Honduras.

            • Gosman 3.1.1.1.3.1
              11 February 2019 at 1:46 pm

              If you can link Honduras’s problems with some sort of right wing economic thinking they have implemented then go ahead. Honduras’ problems are more to do with their political culture coupled with the US war on Drugs than anything “right-wing” inspired. But if National starts pushing for aggressive military action against Cannabis plantations then you can start using the Honduras example with my blessing.

              • McFlock …
                11 February 2019 at 2:02 pm

                3-16 ring any bells? War on drugs my arse.

              • One Two …
                11 February 2019 at 2:19 pm

                When were you on the ground in Honduras, for an extended time asessing and understanding ‘political culture’, gosman ?

              • KJT …
                13 February 2019 at 10:03 am

                Even the US media calls Honduras a “right wing coup”.

                Even road repairs, depend on local villagers filling in the holes, in return for coins from passing motorists.

                A triumph of right wing idealogy.

                Where people are so desperate to leave that Trump wants to build a wall to stop them.
                E
                Which we don’t hear about, just as we don’t hear about the triumph of right wing poverty and genocide in Indonesia, Yemen, Somalia and all the other “successes” where the USA has installed right wing dictatorships.

                But Venezuela, as if US meddling, years of repressive, corrupt right wing regimes, had nothing to do with it.

            • KJT 3.1.1.1.3.2
              13 February 2019 at 9:55 am

              It would be, if the failure had anything to do with socialism.

              How is the right wing experiment doing in New Zealand, again?

              From level pegging with Australia to 30% behind.

              Not to mention “left wing” California carrying the Republican States.
              Without funding from the “”Blue” states, the “Red” States are on the verge of collapse.

    • mac1 3.2
      11 February 2019 at 10:45 am

      Funny the MP concerned, Stuart Smith, did not accept there was a building crisis three years ago.

      He doesn’t blame non-socialist countries going through huge problems saying they stem from their system of government or particular ideology, though.

      Interestingly, in a Wikipedia list of ‘fragile countries’. the top performing countries include socialist countries and capitalist countries, countries with social democratic governing parties and countries with parties of the Right. Similarly, the bottom grouping.

      17 out of 25 top performers are European. Now what might that tell us? Four more are members of the Commonwealth. Hmmm….. The US sneaks in at #25 by the way.

      Instead, National are trotting out the old tactics- red herrings, reds under the beds, blame the ‘sozies’, ‘socialism by stealth’. nanny state, ‘big gummint’.

      Some of us are old enough to see these old tactics being recycled.

      His scapegoats- planning laws, cost of materials through lack of competition (that one rings truer, though), the RMA…………. and socialism (National were in power for nine out of the last ten years after all)…….. did not affect over a decade the undersupply of suitable houses for ordinary people.

  4. Cinny 4
    11 February 2019 at 8:11 am

    Has simon given any morning interviews today please? Or is he MIA?

    Edit… found him… he’s now comparing the cannabis referendum to Brexit….. dang !

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2019/02/cannabis-referendum-could-be-new-zealand-s-brexit-simon-bridges.html

  5. Rapunzel 5
    11 February 2019 at 8:13 am

    I would have thought it odd given the coverage of the National Party’s dim view of overhauling polytechs etc that MSM did not cover this release of figures from government. As NZ had quite significant numbers of overseas students during that period it shows that training of NZers was just not happening

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1902/S00072/drop-of-23000-students-at-polytechnics-under-national.htm

    • soddenleaf 5.1
      11 February 2019 at 12:43 pm

      Banks, raise fees, fund parties holding back union influence, lower incomes result, stuff property markets up as they like bigger higher house prices, longer loans, etc. So average nz pays more for housing, gets paid less, and bank loans have to be larger and longer held. Banks. Skills now need loans to acquire, bankers cheer. They are eating at every corner, nibbling bank rent.

      We don’t have a skills problem in NZ, we have a business part too close to the banks needs. We have a management crisis, our govt managing is captured by bank requests. Bridges attacked tax slippage as a problem, that limiting govt income means govt has less to make free fee education possible, state housing, free health care, oversight of work sites, inspectors of mines, and retail food. He won’t conceive of a policy that reigns in bank profits, its not on his agenda.

      Management crisis not skills crisis, as who with the skills wants to pay all the private taxes banks charge them at every opportunity. Hey, it just gets worse, now banks have all that data too, now the more business you do, the more they can seek out rent opportunities to grow bank profits. NZ needs a real business party.

  6. Ed1 6
    11 February 2019 at 8:31 am

    One of the last acts of desperation when National realised that there really was a housing crisis was to increase the application of the capital gains tax that we have had for many many years – they introduced a “bright line” test, so that investors could not sell a property on quickly and still claim the investment was for long term income purposes. Now Bridges is saying that he will remove tax on capital gains . . .

    The reality is that the claim of investing for long term income is a stupid test – those with private trust funds can easily make that claim, even while they continue to trade in properties, whereas poorer people who save through a pooled fund with professional investment management will pay tax on capital gains (albeit at their own marginal rate for Kiwisaver).

    Labour are not planning to introduce a tax on capital gains – we already have that tax – they are planning on making it more comprehensive s it applies to all (except the family home). Naturally, National believe exempting the wealthy and lawyered up is fair . . .

    A comprehensive capital gains tax will not affect most people except the wealthy – we should be asking why National are promising to remove a tax that has existed for years . . .

    • James 6.1
      11 February 2019 at 9:06 am

      “A comprehensive capital gains tax will not affect most people except the wealthy”

      It won’t impact people because it’s an election loser and national will turf it out.

      That’s the beauty of politics.

      • vto 6.1.1
        11 February 2019 at 11:02 am

        Yeah that’s right eh James, let’s leave the poor suffering wage and salary earner paying tax on their earnings while those that make millions from capital appreciation pay nothing on their earnings.

        You tories still hanker after children in the coal mines. Bastards.

    • Naki man 6.2
      11 February 2019 at 11:00 am

      “A comprehensive capital gains tax will not affect most people except the wealthy”

      So anyone who has parents who own a house or has kiwi saver or retirement savings or is the owner of a small business is wealthy apparently. The majority of us will be affected by capital gains tax if labour have things their way.

      https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/110441137/the-reality-of-capital-gains-tax-is-that-the-lions-share-is-paid-by-the-middle

      • vto 6.2.1
        11 February 2019 at 11:04 am

        Why shouldn’t anyone who comes into money not pay tax on it? Especially when that money has come for, effectively, doing little to nothing.

        Why do you think only income should be taxed?

        • Naki man 6.2.1.1
          11 February 2019 at 11:44 am

          Once you have paid tax on your income the money should be yours to do what you like with. Why should it be taxed again if you leave it to family? why should people who are responsible enough to save for their retirement get taxed again on their super? There are always ways around stupid laws that over tax people.
          The parasites (lawyers and accountants) will love the extra money they make from this.

          • bwaghorn 6.2.1.1.1
            11 February 2019 at 12:09 pm

            You obviously dont understand what capital gain is .
            If I buy a house for $1,000,000 then sell it for $1.1 mill I only pay cgt on the $100,000 profit that was unearned.

            • McFlock 6.2.1.1.1.1
              11 February 2019 at 1:08 pm

              It’s always funny when rabid tories forget how basic things like tax work. AOC having to explain marginal tax rates to millionaires is a laugh, too (it’s not 70% of all your income, just 70% on your million-and-first dollar…).

            • Jimmy 6.2.1.1.1.2
              11 February 2019 at 2:13 pm

              What if I inherit my parents house worth $1.1 million, that was bought a long time ago for $170,000. If I sell it (cause I cant live in two houses) do I pay 33% on $930,000?

              • bwaghorn …
                11 February 2019 at 3:07 pm

                I believe a cgt will not be retrospective so it will only be on gains after the law is enacted.

              • solkta …
                11 February 2019 at 6:11 pm

                Your parents are not liable for CGT as they have used it as the family home. If you keep the house and don’t live in it as your family home and then sell it later you are liable for CGT from when you inherited to when you sold it. There would be a grace period to allow you to sell the house straight away.

                This is how Key tripped up Cunliffe in the leaders election debate. Key asked him how long in Labour’s policy before the tax applied. It apparently hadn’t been decided but Cunliffe blurted out three months and then Key managed to make it look like you had three months to sell the house or pay capital gains on the whole time your parents owned it rather than just the time over three months.

            • Naki man 6.2.1.1.1.3
              11 February 2019 at 7:46 pm

              I know what capital gains tax is, i have paid it before on an Australian property. We don’t all own million dollar houses and we are not all property speculators. It is far more likely that a property has gone up by 100% than your example of a miserable 10% so there will be far more tax to pay. Get over this unearned shit.

              • Psycho Milt …
                11 February 2019 at 8:30 pm

                We don’t all own million dollar houses and we are not all property speculators.

                You write that as though it made some kind of difference. People who don’t have capital to make tax-free gains from already pay interest on the income they receive, and they sure as fuck aren’t property speculators either. If you can’t bear to contribute to the running of the society you live in, go find an island somewhere.

          • Gabby 6.2.1.1.2
            11 February 2019 at 5:55 pm

            Same reason it’s taxed again if you spend it Nastiman.

        • Jimmy 6.2.1.2
          11 February 2019 at 2:07 pm

          So it is an envy tax. You have saved and have more than me so you need to pay tax on it (again) when you sell it.

        • Jimmy 6.2.1.3
          11 February 2019 at 4:40 pm

          What about Lotto winnings?

      • Ed1 6.2.2
        11 February 2019 at 2:21 pm

        I have not seen specific numbers on how much tax is currently raised currently, let alone who pays most of it. The majority of the tax should be paid by those making the most capital gains, just as those with a higher salary pay more tax than those with a lower salary or wage. The wealthy are most likely to make capital gains as most other than the wealthy have no capital assets other than their house, and many do not have that – they rent. I am told however that the problem with the current tax regime is that whether capital gains are taxable or not depends at least in part on the deemed purpose of the investment – if an asset was purchased for long term income (eg a rental property), then the income (rent) is taxed but not the capital gain. If it is purchased for resale then all the capital gains form art of taxable income. I presume that is why it can be profitable to land-bank and not build – building and selling realises gains which are taxable! Now clearly the wealthy are better at having lawyers make intention fit the best tax result – contributors to a Kiwisaver Fund are equally clearly investing for an investment return, so all dividends, rents, capital gains and other income is taxable.

        Now of course property gets a lot of attention, and National will try to make people think that homes will attract capital gains tax when they are sold. But other investments may also be significant. Take shares. When Bill English sold off a lot of state owned companies at lower than true value, those buying got a great investment which has increased in value considerably in most cases. When those shares are sold, is there any reason why the gain in value should not be taxed? Perhaps that is why Bridges is not just promising to do away with any loopholes in taxing capital gains that the government decides, but to do away with all tax on capital gains. After all, if lawyers and accountants can whisk those gains out of the tax net altogether, then it seems that in the minds of National, capital gains are never taxed . . .

        Perhaps it is time for an accountant / lawyer / tax expert to tell us just what capital gains are currently taxed, how much is raised through that being the case, and what types of investment are carrying that tax burden.

        Perhaps the tax rorts are the reason why it is hard to get people to build property, but easy to get speculation on buying and selling companies. Is it really true that tax is a bigger influence on investing than what is good for the investor and what is good for the country?

        I know I don’t have the facts, and the spin of National is not very informative – its time someone gave us some facts.

    • Jimmy 6.3
      11 February 2019 at 11:33 am

      What happens if you own your own home and inherit your parents house?

      • indiana 6.3.1
        11 February 2019 at 11:56 am

        You pay death taxes of course….cleverly called a capital gains tax because you earned an income from inheritance.

        • Jimmy 6.3.1.1
          11 February 2019 at 12:08 pm

          And you may end up being forced to sell your parents house you have inherited (which was bought many years previously out of after tax income) simply because you cannot afford to pay the CGT on it!

          • bwaghorn 6.3.1.1.1
            11 February 2019 at 12:10 pm

            You would only pay the cgt if/when sold it

            • Ed1 6.3.1.1.1.1
              11 February 2019 at 2:23 pm

              And it would only have tax on gains after the loophole is stopped – ie when legislation started the count. As I understand it investment properties (the rental down the road) should have tax on capital gains from when they were purchased – is that right?

              • In Vino …
                11 February 2019 at 8:56 pm

                Would Indiana like to explain very clearly just how one ‘EARNS’ income when one inherits one’s parents’ house?
                I see it as a lucky accident of birth and social class.
                No meritorious ‘earning’ about it, is there Indiana?

          • KJT 6.3.1.1.2
            13 February 2019 at 4:56 pm

            Rubbish. You only pay CGT, if you sell it.

            You are getting confused with TOP’s asset tax.

        • bwaghorn 6.3.1.2
          11 February 2019 at 12:14 pm

          Stop bullshitting.

          • indiana 6.3.1.2.1
            11 February 2019 at 12:47 pm

            Stop pretending that they way the capital gains tax has been designed is for the good of all New Zelander’s

            • McFlock 6.3.1.2.1.1
              11 February 2019 at 1:11 pm

              Where was your concern for the good of all NZers when nats were underfunding the health system and ignoring the deepening housing crisis for nine years?

            • mac1 6.3.1.2.1.2
              11 February 2019 at 4:43 pm

              If tax is used wisely, then we all benefit, even if we think we are paying more than we should. CGT is a tax on income, so it should be levied.

              In Scandinavian countries the well-off pay high taxes willingly because they know they benefit from the health service that they help pay for, and for the education system that provides the smart, educated and well-trained employees they need.

              Indiana, try reading “Viking Economics” by George Lakey.

              https://www.amazon.com/Viking-Economics-How-Scandinavians-Right/dp/1612195369

              • bwaghorn …
                11 February 2019 at 4:46 pm

                Haha Haha haa joke of the day asking Indiana to read something that doesn’t come direct from some actoid shit factories

                • mac1 …
                  11 February 2019 at 5:51 pm

                  I gave the same book to a National MP to read.

                  When I see him next month, I’ll ask him how he found Lakey’s ideas.

                  I always hope that engaging positively with people might effect better change than, say, laughing at them.

      • Psycho Milt 6.3.2
        11 February 2019 at 1:09 pm

        What happens if you own your own home and inherit your parents house?

        You instantly become wealthier than you were, on an asset basis. If at some later point you sell that asset, you’d pay tax on the money you made. Attempts to paint that as an outrageous assault on “hard-working Kiwi families” might get traction with the incorrigably self-interested, but few others.

        • Alan 6.3.2.1
          11 February 2019 at 1:44 pm

          Dream on, it will rightfully infuriate the vast majority of the electorate.
          Go on labour, do it. And wave goodbye as you head out the door

          • Ed1 6.3.2.1.1
            11 February 2019 at 2:31 pm

            I haven’t seen the detail of new legislation, but I suspect that if it was the home your parents had lived in, there would be no tax payable on capital gains up to the date of death, and if the person who inherited continues to live in it no tax would accrue on capital gains while that was the case. I you inherited the house and kept it as an investment then CGT would accrue on gains over the value when the ownership changed. Why would that infuriate the vast majority of the electorate? Now you may be closer to the proposed changes to capital gains loopholes, but we have been told it will not affect the family home. How else do you see that working?

            • Alan 6.3.2.1.1.1
              11 February 2019 at 2:42 pm

              It will be seen as double dipping by the Government.
              “My parents bought and paid for that house with after tax income, it belongs to our family, why should the government suddenly get another massive slice of tax??”
              That is exactly how people will think.
              For many low and middle income New Zealanders a tidy, hard earned (by their parents) inheritance is viewed as precious. Meddle with that at your peril.

              • greywarshark …
                11 February 2019 at 2:50 pm

                It’s already meddled with. They may have to borrow or sell to keep them for interminable years in a retirement home/hospital.

              • Psycho Milt …
                11 February 2019 at 3:33 pm

                That’s how the incorrigably self-interested and the chronically confused will think, for sure. Everyone else will be able to figure out that the capital gain accruing to them from their ownership of the place is income that no-one else paid tax on.

                • Alan …
                  11 February 2019 at 3:38 pm

                  Your comment suggests a very poor understanding of how the vast majority of people think and act. Go on labour, enact the CGT.

                  • Psycho Milt …
                    11 February 2019 at 4:30 pm

                    The incorrigably self-interested and the chronically confused are a significant constituency, granted. And we could be sure that ACT, National and their astroturfing body The Taxpayers’ Union would make hay with lies like “My parents bought and paid for that house with after tax income, it belongs to our family, why should the government suddenly get another massive slice of tax??” But the self-interested tend to be Nat supporters anyway and lies can be countered, so overall it’s probably worth doing.

                  • KJT …
                    13 February 2019 at 4:58 pm

                    A poll showed 80% supported a CGT.

              • patricia bremner …
                11 February 2019 at 5:29 pm

                Alan, your parents paid for the house Call that Value A no tax
                over time the value has increased Call that Value B no tax
                To inherit , a reg valuation is done Call that Value C for tax base
                Sold at a higher value than C Call that Value C+
                You pay your tax rate on the difference between C and C+

                That is one method it could take.

              • Ed1 …
                11 February 2019 at 11:36 pm

                So if I buy shares out of my “tax-paid” income, then sell them a few days later after the share price has gone up, why have governments for the last umpteen years being putting that gain into taxable income – and taxing the capital gains? We already have tax on capital gains – and National put it up by introducing a “bright line” test to force tax to be paid on all short terms property buying and selling – why does Bridges now claim that the government he was in was wrong and is promising to remove all taxes on capital gains?

                And if you inherit a house, the capital gains only accrues from that point – if it was worth $1 million when your parents die, the government get no tax as there have been no taxable gains. If you rent it out as an investment then sell it a year later for $1.5 million, you would pay tax on the rent, plus the $500,000 capital gain, less expenses. Would you have it any other way? Now think about whether it is any different from your inheriting $1 of shares, keeping them for a year then selling for $1.5 million – should one of the investments get favoured treatment? If so, Why?

          • Gabby 6.3.2.1.2
            11 February 2019 at 5:59 pm

            The majority of the population aren’t going to be inheriting houses ally.

            • Naki man 6.3.2.1.2.1
              11 February 2019 at 8:01 pm

              Why not Gobby? Anyone with a brain transfers as much as possible long before a rest home is needed.

            • Tricledrown 6.3.2.1.2.2
              11 February 2019 at 11:45 pm

              Gabby He was saying one form of income/profit is taxed while others are not. Meaning those who pay are having to pay more than they should. Rewarding speculation over productivity.

      • Pat 6.3.3
        11 February 2019 at 8:39 pm

        why the expectation you should inherit?….what happened to meritocracy?

        • Tricledrown 6.3.3.1
          11 February 2019 at 11:47 pm

          Every generation wants to leave something for the next.

          • Pat 6.3.3.1.1
            12 February 2019 at 5:39 pm

            something or everything?

          • KJT 6.3.3.1.2
            14 February 2019 at 9:51 am

            What happened to having to work for your living?

            Is that only applicable to the poor?

            If the rich really become rich due to merit, not having a inheritance shouldn’t be a problem. “Superior” people would make the fortune back again.

            100% inheritance taxes over a million dollars.

            After all, the children of the rich have already inherited numerous other advantages. The old boy network, being able to afford to take internships, training, a house……

            They should have to earn their living. Like everyone else.

            No work, no eat.

  7. Peter 7
    11 February 2019 at 9:12 am

    Since it’s Open Mike some attention could be given to how Mike Hosking can open some complicated situation up with scalpel like incisions.

    “Is the Employment Relations Authority out of touch – and more dangerously – out of control?” he ponders.

    “Now we must accept that there will be subtlety and nuance, as there is in any case like this, a bit of he said, she said.

    But upon reading as much detail as I can, it strikes me that we have a pretty basic case of misunderstanding. … $9000 is a heap of dough, and a hammer to deal with a nut.”

    There you have it, the subtleties, the nuances all sorted, put in their place and understood. We’re bloody lucky to have someone like him to sort things out for us.

    It was said at the time of questions about Hosking’s commercial relationship with casino company SkyCity that he was receiving money in the region of $45,000. Do we presume for that they got the power of five nuts?

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12202554

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10795401

    • greywarshark 7.1
      11 February 2019 at 10:12 am

      But $9000 is a heap of dough. For work of how many days that employer wanted to be unpaid and worker not told?

    • Ed1 7.2
      11 February 2019 at 2:31 pm

      Did the $9000 cover costs of court and legal representation?

      • McFlock 7.2.1
        11 February 2019 at 2:40 pm

        Nah ISTR the bulk of it was punitive. Because the business owner either doesn’t know how to hire staff, or gets free work from desperate people under “trials”. Could knock 20% off his wage costs if he does it regularly.

    • Gabby 7.3
      11 February 2019 at 6:00 pm

      Phuxee talkin bout peetee?

  8. greywarshark 8
    11 February 2019 at 11:23 am

    Gordon Campbell from Werewolf and Scoop brings some interesting facts on Oz banks profits from NZ to light; They definitely need to be viewed in sunlight.

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL1902/S00024/gordon-campbell-on-why-the-aussie-banks-are-bastards.htm
    …Holmes responds: “To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time.” “But,” protests the Inspector, “the dog did nothing in the night-time.” At which Holmes delivers the punch-line: “That was the curious incident.”

    Aha. So the watchdog knew the culprit, all too well. Let us now turn our attention if we may, to the nefarious practices of the Australian Banking Gang, and in particular to their extraordinary level of profit taking from New Zealand.

    ANZ made a record $1.99 billion profit in 2018, which works out at $416 extracted from every single New Zealander. BNZ has racked up a $1.029 billion profit the same year. Westpac’s profit was up by 5% this year, to $1,017 billion as well. In June 2018, ASB reported a 10% rise in profit to $1.177 billion.

    It’s my opinion that anyone (or country) that is soft and easy to take advantage of, results in a loss of their respect and further becomes the subject of their derision.
    Which might explain the swingeing attitude they take to NZs. They know how to have their cake and eat it too – a rare achievement – and they feel pretty chuffed with themselves for having got our measure. In a satirical skit I saw once, a group of men formally pronounce unfavourably to someone who turns and walks out, and they collapse in uncontrollable giggles. I think that is the basic scenario for us with Oz.

  9. alwyn 9
    11 February 2019 at 11:48 am

    I imagine that everyone who ranted on about companies like Google and Facebook collecting information about their users will be up in arms about the IRD.
    After denying asking anyone in a survey they were doing about their political opinions they have finally been forced to admit the truth.
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/110447687/ird-spends-125000-polling-public-on-overtly-political-issues
    What the hell were they up to, and why won’t the Minister and his Department explain what was going on?
    Where are the complaints here about their political bias and demands that the head of the IRD should be sacked?
    Or is it OK to collect information about people’s political views if it is being done for the benefit of our current Government?

    • Shadrach 9.1
      11 February 2019 at 12:52 pm

      From the article:

      “Inland Revenue initially refused to release the polling questions. Group head of communications and marketing Andrew Stott denied the poll included political leaning questions. “I’d be incredibly amazed if there was,” Stott said.
      He later admitted he had not checked the poll.”

      Incredible.

    • Psycho Milt 9.2
      11 February 2019 at 1:14 pm

      I imagine that everyone who ranted on about companies like Google and Facebook collecting information about their users will be up in arms about the IRD.

      Wouldn’t that depend on whether they were confused about the difference between gathering data on individuals and conducting an opinion poll?

      • McFlock 9.2.1
        11 February 2019 at 2:13 pm

        Not at all. IRD conducting a poll is worse than Venezuela.

        • alwyn 9.2.1.1
          11 February 2019 at 3:09 pm

          You have this thing about Venezuela, don’t you?
          What caused this obsession with the place?

          • Psycho Milt 9.2.1.1.1
            11 February 2019 at 3:34 pm

            He’s been watching too much Simon Bridges on the news.

            • alwyn 9.2.1.1.1.1
              11 February 2019 at 4:23 pm

              Really?
              Can you give me some links to Simon talking about Venezuela?
              Say, half a dozen? Then I might get some idea about what McFlock and Bridges have in common.

          • McFlock 9.2.1.1.2
            11 February 2019 at 4:30 pm

            Hadn’t given it too much thought, then a whole bunch of you tory tools started saying it here just as some random expression. Now some nat caucus tools have taken to dropping it randomly into conversations. Venezuela est delenda, sort of thing.

            When in Rome, do as they do, I reckon.

            • alwyn 9.2.1.1.2.1
              11 February 2019 at 4:33 pm

              “Hadn’t given it too much thought”.
              Sums your remarks up pretty well I would say.
              Still, I will continue to read what you say here.
              Anyone who appreciates a fine cigar can’t be all bad.

      • Gabby 9.2.2
        11 February 2019 at 6:05 pm

        You’re not going to attempt a defence of the ird are you milty? Please do.

        • Psycho Milt 9.2.2.1
          11 February 2019 at 7:04 pm

          I don’t have any strong feelings about the merits or otherwise of the IRD conducting opinion polls. Doesn’t sound like a great use of their budget to me, but what would I know?

    • Cinny 9.3
      11 February 2019 at 2:08 pm

      First I’ve heard about it, but hey it’s hot topic on whale oil and kiwiblog….if you are looking for outrage am sure there’s plenty on those right wing blogs.

      Could a person chose not to answer the question?

      Has it happened before?

      • alwyn 9.3.1
        11 February 2019 at 3:10 pm

        Apparently not before November 2017.
        The IRD kept to the rules before then, or at least so I have been told.

    • Gabby 9.4
      11 February 2019 at 7:26 pm

      Must be a gnat mole in the ird wally.

  10. Dennis Frank 10
    11 February 2019 at 2:24 pm

    Danyl Mclauchlan: “even the super-woke can be secret and subconscious super-racists.” https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/11-02-2019/how-implicit-bias-works/

    “How? Let’s start with Henri Tajfel, a Polish Jewish Holocaust survivor and social psychologist. After the war Tajfel decided – for not very mysterious reasons – to study prejudice, group psychology and social identity. How do humans form affiliations to groups, like races or nationalities, and why does that often incite us to demonise other groups? He divided a bunch of undergraduate students into random teams – and told them they’d been randomly selected; none of them knew each other, they’d probably never interact again – and had them perform various tasks like divide resources or judge members of the groups at different activities. The subjects showed a massive preference for their own group and its members even if they knew they’d only been assigned to that group through the toss of a coin.”

    “It’s a finding that’s been replicated many times across many different places and cultures, and it serves as the basis for the Minimal Group Paradigm, describing the innate tendency for humans to affiliate to ingroups on the basis of social identity.”

    Well done, Danyl! Reporting the scientific discovery of the psychological basis of identity politics is a major contribution to culture. Particularly since the news media are unlikely to do so! But what I find remarkable is that the predisposition is so arbitrary. One would expect it to be driven by cultural origin and nurture, even if not genetics. It’s a discovery that will have a tremendous impact in years to come.

    “All of us have a host of different, sometimes conflicting social identities crowding around inside our minds. I’m white, a male, middle-aged, married, a New Zealander, a father, middle-class, a writer, and so on. We switch between which affiliation feels most salient given the circumstances, primarily identifying with whichever ingroup awards us the higher status. Politicians and other actors are increasingly adept at activating these different identities, manipulating us into defining ourselves in a way that strengthens our connection to them and makes us believe they personally champion our ingroup – which is always the victim of some sinister outgroup.”

    Just look at the way that the Great Satan Trump syndrome has some commentators here tapping furiously at their keyboards daily and you can see how right he is! 😎

    • greywarshark 10.1
      11 February 2019 at 2:48 pm

      Interesting Df.
      So we relate to people on basis of social identity.
      Then, within our reality of various social identities we have – or call them roles perhaps – We switch between which affiliation feels most salient given the circumstances, primarily identifying with whichever ingroup awards us the higher status.

      That is a generalisation of course. Sounds like it came from the neolib songbook.

      • Dennis Frank 10.1.1
        11 February 2019 at 2:58 pm

        Yes, I wonder if that status thing was proven by the science or is mere inference. Scientists are as prone to spin interpretations of discoveries as anyone else. My intuitive take is that we feel part of a group when others within recognise us as such. Whether such recognition equates with status then depends how you define status.

        • greywarshark 10.1.1.1
          11 February 2019 at 3:39 pm

          Groucho Marx said he wouldn’t want to belong to any club that would accept him, or the like.

          But that was partly ironic, because I think, his son had been turned down for membership to one in the USA because he was Jewish.

          Status – it can be a poisoned chalice.

  11. Observer Tokoroa 11
    11 February 2019 at 3:10 pm

    The Fallen Blog
    .
    The Standard has fallen to the Trolls. It belongs in reality to Whomever the Trolls want.

    The National Party has done Nothing for New Zealand for Years! Not only did it do nothing for years it slammed additional burden on the noble people who do the work in this National destroyed Land.

    The Trolls know it all. – Sir John Key – he the molester of little Blonde Girls hair, slammed up the Gst which affects the poor very seriously, on taking the up the Role of leader of National. He raised the Costs of energy …and so on.

    He then went further and Flogged off the few Assets that New Zealand had. His submissve little “I will do anything you want John” Billy English, sold up as much Housing as he could find to FOREIGNERS.

    The Two of them stripped and denuded any possible asset NZ had. the Banks belong to Ozzie. the Forests belong to Ozzie. The Parking Stations belong to Korea. the keyholes belong to nobody here. Key sent money to mates in Saudi Arabia.

    You want fish ? you can’t afford it . It belongs to FOREIGNERS. You want meat ? – you cant afford it – it belongs to FOREIGNERS. You want Cheese – you can’t afford it. It belongs to FOREIGNERS.

    You want a tertiary Education – you can’t afford it. Firstly John Key has Ducked up the Price of Housing and Rentals all over the country – massively. Secondly the Kids can’t afford the exorbitant Fees. John is busy pulling the hair of a cafe assistant. Until his wife belatedly tells him to leave the young woman alone .The Rat.

    John key never paid fees. The slippery eh.

    John Key followers are the Trolls on here. Complete with Key / English lies.

    Bye Bye Sanity. Bring on Troll Horror, Courtesy of the Dumb National non achievers.

  12. Gosman 12
    11 February 2019 at 4:39 pm

    Theresa May may be having a nightmare over Brexit but there is one leader who looks to be having almost as bad a time over it and other issues – Jeremy Corbyn.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/10/what-is-going-on-in-jeremy-corbyns-labour

    • Stuart Munro 12.1
      11 February 2019 at 5:03 pm

      That would be because he’s honest – not an easy thing to be in politics. Brexit is a mare’s nest and there will be no happy solution. One could almost believe Putin dreamt it up, much as Germany is said to have instigated the October revolution.

    • Drowsy M. Kram 12.2
      11 February 2019 at 5:20 pm

      Interesting piece in the Guardian – seems to be setting Corbyn and the Labour party up to take the blame for the Brexit catastrophe, despite it being a Tory initiated and ‘planned’ process. Corbyn and Labour, however, are not responsible for Brexit (everyone knows who is), Corbyn and Labour are not responsible for the events in Venezuela, and who knows who’s responsible for the apparent rise in anti-semitism.

      ““One antisemite in the Labour Party is one too many.” – Shadow health secretary Jon Ashworth

      https://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/tony-blair-labour-has-not-been-robust-enough-tackling-antisemitism/

      But you’re right about one thing, Theresa May and the Tories are well and truly skewered on the Brexit spit. Extraordinary really, given that conservative parties have a reputation for being better managers and having “a safe pair of hands”. Oh mercy!

  13. Drowsy M. Kram 13
    11 February 2019 at 6:04 pm

    Good Reid Research poll result for Labour, but for Bridges “a trifecta from hell”.

    https://thestandard.org.nz/latest-reid-research-poll-result-disastrous-for-national-and-bridges/

  14. Jenny - How to get there? 14
    11 February 2019 at 10:13 pm

    Dirty Muller

    Most other countries reflecting on their own domestic commitments are confronted firstly with electricity generation, which is often fossil fuel dominated. That is their challenge of the next decade. Ours is harder, with electricity production already at 85 per cent renewable. We can continue to increase this, but as we approach 100 per cent renewable electricity, the last few per cent become very expensive and don’t deliver significant emissions reductions.

    Todd Muller

    Wth this above statement, Todd Muller, National’s climate change spokesperson, is in effect, refusing to accept the need to close down New Zealand’s single coal fired power station.

    In Germany which is less well placed than us for renewables and climate, the German government has just announced that they will close down all 84 of their coal fired generators.

    Germany to close all 84 of its coal-fired power plants, will rely primarily on renewable energy
    ERIK KIRSCHBAUM – Los Angeles Times, January 26, 2019

    https://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-germany-coal-power-20190126-story.html?fbclid=IwAR1XctIvCdO3JFPTCtWXO1MRlop5zyNjveg7F0ly3PdKCSJ44L3bUcSQbHY

    Germany, one of the world’s biggest consumers of coal, will shut down all 84 of its coal-fired power plants over the next 19 years to meet its international commitments in the fight against climate change, a government commission said Saturday.

  15. Adrian 15
    12 February 2019 at 2:43 pm

    There is a long story in todays new Yorker called Private Mossad For Hire.
    It might just explain why some people are so eager to visit Israel. Like the Inert Whale for instance.
    It has come to light thru the Mueller investigation, if our Secret Service are on to it it’s no wonder the Fat Boy had a stroke.
    Sorry, too stupid to do a link. I still think this stuff moves round the world by carrier pigeons.,

    [Here ya go, Adrian: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/02/18/private-mossad-for-hire ]

    • Adrian 15.1
      12 February 2019 at 4:52 pm

      Thanks, I really only use a computer for playing Solataire, reading newspapers and with the exception of The Standard. Wasting time!
      35 degrees on the farm today, so its starring at screen time.

  16. Eco Maori 16
    13 February 2019 at 8:02 am

    Kia ora The AM Show there you go social media can’t be to bad. As the generation that use social media the most are getting a education on the true facts in our society that is one reason why the bad stats are falling. The other they could get shamed on social media for doing dumb shit social media is giving our society a good conscience and social media will make every be much more HUMANE.
    There you go PEE use is causing big problems in our society and that has grown rapidly under shonky national rule the state is just ripping children away from their parents instead of helping them stay with their parents the state has not got a good record for caring for children alot children will end up being on the wrong side of the law.?????????????? this is a big shitty MESS that shonky national created after all they have been in charge of NZ society for the last 9 years so don’t go trying to blame our Coalition Government for the mess.
    Equality can and will work its just RICH PRICKS like you two who have self centre EGOS that can’t see that Socialism is why society’s started in the first place neanderthal who can’t see past there own greedy ASSES. Most of the children in state care are Maori YOU MUPPETS I can see every move you make against me that’s why I have a holster on YOU to keep the capitalist DICKS in line who don’t give a shit about the POOR and have a KICK every chance you get
    Sam
    All the rich kids are signed up to Kiwisaver by their parents accountants as soon as they are born. the accountants get their taxes number and walar socialist for the wealthy .
    No Sam mark and duncan do believe that a socialist IDEAL like EQUALITY can work its not there fault they are not intelligent enough to to care about the common people. The only reason equality in not here and now is because fools like you two brand Equality as bad and trash it whenever you get a chance.
    I say that the changes to Polytechnic should be changed to provide our youth with qualified trade tickets I wounder why national did not want the poor common people who are MOSTLY MAORI to get good trade tickets.?????????????.
    I see you two have changed your undies once again AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.
    shonky new that tangata whenua minority cultures % of the population is rising fast so he and his neo capitalist m8 set out to keep (US) poor uneducated broke and on the dole to justify importing foreign workers who will vote shonky national that’= the stupid policy that national have been running so self serving. That’s why ECO Maori hammers the national party its people like them that cause a lot of society ills.
    There you go duncan that’s exactly what shonky wanted people making excuses for hiring foreign workers you just confirmed my words above and kicking the poor common person once again.
    The children in state care obviously don’t have good carers so they need a backstop sign into Kiwisaver is that backstop for when they retire or want to buy a house duncan just search for the popular topic and pins his hat to it to get the best popular hits from it.
    Just when you think you know ECO MAORI I give you the facts and I don’t care if you get shit for it Ka kite ano P.S te tangata te tangata te tangata te tangata

  17. Eco Maori 17
    13 February 2019 at 8:15 am

    Do you know the personal reasons some people can not work dick the ones that are capable but to lazy will be that small that it’s not worth talking about but you kick all the unemployed.
    Ana to kai neanderthal. It’s a white man society and the brown people have been disadvantage for hundreds of years I have seen the evidence in my tipuna letters I have been reading that were sent to the crown

  18. Eco Maori 18
    13 February 2019 at 8:43 am

    50 years ago the internet was first invented Some Eco Maori Music for the minute.

  19. Eco Maori 19
    13 February 2019 at 8:54 am

    Hannah Ka pai on your great feat the sting Ray was Tangaroa blessings you and your crew succeeding with your goal Ka kite ano

  20. Eco Maori 20
    13 February 2019 at 12:02 pm

    Eco Maori Says that after Global Warming ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENTs is the next big threat to human kind thats why someone is cutting there internet connetions in a test.???????. We have to get OUR BEST Minds together and come up with the best IDEARS to control this TECH or we risk being slaves to the TECH Thats REALITY.
    Imagine some EVIL person getting the best AI in our World they will have UNLIMITED POWER we have seen on the World Stage What Someone Has done with the powerfulest job on the PLANET and what I see is a big bad MESS Imagine if his POWER Was UNLIMITED WE would be ((((((STUFFED))))))
    Optimizing logistics, detecting fraud, composing art, conducting research, providing translations: intelligent machine systems are transforming our lives for the better. As these systems become more capable, our world becomes more efficient and consequently richer.
    Tech giants such as Alphabet, Amazon, Facebook, IBM and Microsoft – as well as individuals like Stephen Hawking and Elon Musk – believe that now is the right time to talk about the nearly boundless landscape of artificial intelligence. In many ways, this is just as much a new frontier for ethics and risk assessment as it is for emerging technology. So which issues and conversations keep AI experts up at night?
    1. Unemployment. What happens after the end of jobs?
    The hierarchy of labour is concerned primarily with automation. As we’ve invented ways to automate jobs, we could create room for people to assume more complex roles, moving from the physical work that dominated the pre-industrial globe to the cognitive labour that characterizes strategic and administrative work in our globalized society.
    Look at trucking: it currently employs millions of individuals in the United States alone. What will happen to them if the self-driving trucks promised by Tesla’s Elon Musk become widely available in the next decade? But on the other hand, if we consider the lower risk of accidents, self-driving trucks seem like an ethical choice. The same scenario could happen to office workers, as well as to the majority of the workforce in developed countries.
    Have you read?
    Artificial Intelligence Collides with Patent Law
    Robot inventors are on the rise. But are they welcomed by the patent system?
    Artificial intelligence could be our saviour, according to the CEO of Google
    This is where we come to the question of how we are going to spend our time. Most people still rely on selling their time to have enough income to sustain themselves and their families. We can only hope that this opportunity will enable people to find meaning in non-labour activities, such as caring for their families, engaging with their communities and learning new ways to contribute to human society.
    Eco Maori says that $$$$$ based on the hits & + &- will give US equality I can see it happening NOW This system will provide money for people who lose jobs to ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE P.S HARD WORKERS WILL BE PAYED MORE.
    2. Inequality. How do we distribute the wealth created by machines?
    Our economic system is based on compensation for contribution to the economy, often assessed using an hourly wage. The majority of companies are still dependent on hourly work when it comes to products and services. But by using artificial intelligence, a company can drastically cut down on relying on the human workforce, and this means that revenues will go to fewer people. Consequently, individuals who have ownership in AI-driven companies will make all the money.
    We are already seeing a widening wealth gap, where start-up founders take home a large portion of the economic surplus they create. In 2014, roughly the same revenues were generated by the three biggest companies in Detroit and the three biggest companies in Silicon Valley … only in Silicon Valley there were 10 times fewer employees.
    If we’re truly imagining a post-work society, how do we structure a fair post-labour economy?
    3. Humanity. How do machines affect our behaviour and interaction?
    Artificially intelligent bots are becoming better and better at modelling human conversation and relationships. In 2015, a bot named Eugene Goostman won the Turing Challenge for the first time. In this challenge, human raters used text input to chat with an unknown entity, then guessed whether they had been chatting with a human or a machine. Eugene Goostman fooled more than half of the human raters into thinking they had been talking to a human being.
    This milestone is only the start of an age where we will frequently interact with machines as if they are humans; whether in customer service or sales. While humans are limited in the attention and kindness that they can expend on another person, artificial bots can channel virtually unlimited resources into building relationships
    4. Artificial stupidity. How can we guard against mistakes?
    Intelligence comes from learning, whether you’re human or machine. Systems usually have a training phase in which they “learn” to detect the right patterns and act according to their input. Once a system is fully trained, it can then go into test phase, where it is hit with more examples and we see how it performs.
    Obviously, the training phase cannot cover all possible examples that a system may deal with in the real world. These systems can be fooled in ways that humans wouldn’t be. For example, random dot patterns can lead a machine to “see” things that aren’t there. If we rely on AI to bring us into a new world of labour, security and efficiency, we need to ensure that the machine performs as planned, and that people can’t overpower it to use it for their own ends.
    7. Evil genies. How do we protect against unintended consequences?
    It’s not just adversaries we have to worry about. What if artificial intelligence itself turned against us? This doesn’t mean by turning “evil” in the way a human might, or the way AI disasters are depicted in Hollywood movies. Rather, we can imagine an advanced AI system as a “genie in a bottle” that can fulfill wishes, but with terrible unforeseen consequences.
    In the case of a machine, there is unlikely to be malice at play, only a lack of understanding of the full context in which the wish was made. Imagine an AI system that is asked to eradicate cancer in the world. After a lot of computing, it spits out a formula that does, in fact, bring about the end of cancer – by killing everyone on the planet. The computer would have achieved its goal of “no more cancer” very efficiently, but not in the way humans intended it.
    9. Robot rights. How do we define the humane treatment of AI?
    While neuroscientists are still working on unlocking the secrets of conscious experience, we understand more about the basic mechanisms of reward and aversion. We share these mechanisms with even simple animals. In a way, we are building similar mechanisms of reward and aversion in systems of artificial intelligence. For example, reinforcement learning is similar to training a dog: improved performance is reinforced with a virtual reward.
    Right now, these systems are fairly superficial, but they are becoming more complex and life-like. Could we consider a system to be suffering when its reward functions give it negative input? What’s more, so-called genetic algorithms work by creating many instances of a system at once, of which only the most successful “survive” and combine to form the next generation of instances. This happens over many generations and is a way of improving a system. The unsuccessful instances are deleted. At what point might we consider genetic algorithms a form of mass murder?
    Ka kite ano links below P.S While I write this post the sandflys hack my computer making it do thing I do not command it to do these are the types of people who I do not want to get the ultermate AI

    https://www.weforum.org/whitepapers/artificial-intelligence-collides-with-patent-law

    https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/04/robot-inventors-on-rise-patent-system-US

    https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/01/google-ceo-ai-will-be-bigger-than-electricity-or-fire

    https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/10/top-10-ethical-issues-in-artificial-intelligence/

  21. Eco Maori 21
    13 February 2019 at 12:07 pm

    Eco Maori Video for the above post.

  22. Eco Maori 22
    13 February 2019 at 2:49 pm

    Some Eco Maori Music for the minute We have to keep the focus on the real threats to HUMANITY Global Warming & ARITIFICAL INTELLIGENCE Eco Maori says that these people are underestimating HOW fast AI will evolve by a factor of 10 they have underestimated Climate Change countrys are pouring BILLIONS into this tech & with all new goverments tech someone takes it to the capitalist market and makes billions hundreds of billions now 1 network (ALPHAET) internet 2 GPS 3Drones 4 weather radar 5microwave oven 6digital cameras 7computers you get my point

  23. Robert Guyton 23
    13 February 2019 at 2:59 pm

    Ha!
    James Shaw’s killer hit in the House this afternoon, asking if there have been any reports about Michele Boag and Murray McCully, disgraced over the Saudi Sheep Scandal, making recent efforts to set up a Blue-Green Party!
    Nicely timed and beautifully aimed, James!

  24. Eco Maori 24
    13 February 2019 at 3:07 pm

    Some Eco Maori Music for the minute.

  25. Eco Maori 25
    13 February 2019 at 4:02 pm

    Eco Maori has been keeping out of the international scene for a bit after I seen whats been going down .I also want to make sure who I tau toko/support is worthy of his support .And as the young lady Ocasio-Cortez is one of Bernie flock and bravest of the lot and showed her hand on Climate Change and our tamarikis future Green New Deal she gets ECO MAORIs Tau Toko /support kia kaha.
    Green New Deal: Ocasio-Cortez unveils bold plan to fight climate change
    Blueprint for a carbon-neutral economy has been embraced by prominent Democrats and evokes FDR’s famous legacy
    Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is releasing a broad outline of a vision for the Green New Deal, a plan to battle economic and racial injustice while also fighting climate change.
    The new congresswoman’s blueprint, co-introduced by Massachusetts Senator Ed Markey, aims to develop a carbon-neutral economy in 10 years, which would require huge strides in reducing the US’s reliance on oil, gas and coal. It does not set a date for ending the use of fossil fuels.
    Specifically, the resolution says it is the duty of the federal government to craft a Green New Deal “to achieve net-zero greenhouse gas emissions”. That includes getting all power from “clean, renewable and zero-emission energy sources”.
    What is the Green New Deal and is it technically possible?
    Read more

    The document also endorses universal healthcare, a jobs guarantee and free higher education – a huge shift in messaging from nearly a decade ago, when Democrats were advocating for a cap-and-trade system to limit greenhouse gases by allotting industry permits for pollution.
    Sixty members of the House and nine senators are co-sponsoring the resolution, including several presidential candidates, according to a fact sheet from congressional aides that did not include a list of supporters. However, any legislation would be dead-on-arrival with Republicans in control of the Senate and the White House, and would be difficult for Democrats to implement even if they controlled government. In supporting documents staffer acknowledge the investment required would be “massive”.
    Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi said a select committee on climate change, which she has announced the members of, will not be tasked with writing a specific bill and called the Green New Deal a “suggestion”.
    “It will be one of several or maybe many suggestions that we receive,” Pelosi said in an interview with Politico. “The green dream or whatever they call it, nobody knows what it is, but they’re for it right?”
    Discussions on what shape the plan would take also involved major environment, justice and labor organizations, as well as the youth-run Sunrise Movement. Backers hope the six-page resolution will push Democrats vying for the White House in 2020 not just to sign on to the general idea, but to lay out specific legislative goals.
    Ka kite ano links below. P.S I see alot of others are backing the deal to ka pai

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/feb/07/green-new-deal-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-plan

  26. Eco Maori 26
    13 February 2019 at 6:49 pm

    Kia ora Newshub Hawkesbay is not as good as it use to be they have massive housing shortage they had drinking water problems and now hospitals problems.
    If some Polytechnic are going BROKE than they are broken and need to be fixed. The Coalition government cleaning up another mess that shonky made.He would have privatisation them.
    That didn’t sound like the prime minister throwing her Mps under a bus just saying that they made mistakes no one is perfect . The big picture is simons crew played silly buggers they could have save the committee meeting by going into the room and starting the meeting.
    There you go I was shocked to see that there are private Labour higher companies that take a cut out of a labour’s crap wages they should be outlawed.
    Light rail is still going to be built in Auckland just the dates are out by about 12 to 24 months hardly anything to cry foul on tho ECO MAORI Knows what’s going on . Te tangata te tangata te tangata.
    There you go all tech including health is advanceing rapidly AI is advanceing rapidly to it was cool that the doctors could operate on the unborn child who had spina bifida Ka pai Ka kite ano

  27. Eco Maori 27
    14 February 2019 at 8:34 am

    Kia ora Amanda & Niki from The AM Show.
    Shamubee Eaqub the Aotearoa economy will be fine As for world trade our farmers produce is the best in the WORLD.
    Joe NO young person should be allowed to smoke cannabis thanks for the honest humble humane opinion on OUR cannabis LAWS you said that the current laws are just locking up more Maori for cannabis crime and when they get out they carry on smoking cannabis and end up back in jail. NZ needs a health base solution to the issue not the lock emup solution that cost OUR country $300.00 a day x365 1/4 A year.
    Lloyd Eco Maori says Britain should stay in the European Union. Brexit its not very INTELLIGENT to pull out of a UNION with your Neighbours who you have been in a Union with for decades JUST to keep the 00.1 % happy.
    Ka pai Mike King for being houned with NZER of the YEAR For advocating our mental health problems a brown Tangata Whenua at that to.
    The Waikato DHB Need to clean its act up and admite that they made mistakes in their care of mental health patients who died in there care dismissing the corners reported that place the blame on the health system. The system is never wrong. Cherpy + website is a good way for 55+ people to meat other lonely people on our 21 century comunacations device.
    The leftys are not haters or cheating dirty liers like the self righteous
    Wornges /righties tight ASS,s
    Ka kite ano P.S nice spoon didn’t you get one of those yesterday

  28. Eco Maori 28
    14 February 2019 at 8:43 am

    The Edit system is not working is it because of the Eco Maori Effect

  29. Eco Maori 29
    14 February 2019 at 9:07 am

    Some Eco Maori Music For the minute.