Open mike 11/04/2024
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- PM Luxon is house proud as David Seymour continues to push the edges of social division
Mountain Tui is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Luxon Is That Job Interviewee That’s All Sunshine And RainbowsCraig McCulloch (RNZ) has an unbeatable report this morning on Luxon’s reflections of his first year as PM.Allow me to replicate:On ...22 minutes ago - Monday 25 November 2024
Maritime workers are joining opposition to the government’s plans for resuming live animal exports on the basis that the country “would benefit from being seen as a kind of modern and progressive exporter”. The TEU is slamming a proposal that would end an invaluable timber machining apprenticeship programme, while the ...1 hour ago - PM ‘constructively dissatisfied’ with himself
“Look, I don’t really live with regrets,” Luxon said in one of the interviews marking his first year as PM. File photo: Lynn Grieveson/TheKakaKia ora. Long stories short, here’s my top things to note in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and poverty on Monday, November 25: The news: COP29 ...4 hours ago - Team of One
Oh, it's a mystery to me We have a greed, with which we have agreed And you think you have to want more than you need Until you have it all, you won't be freeSongwriter: Eddie VedderToday is the last day to subscribe to Nick’s Kōrero at the original price ...5 hours ago - A Bad Day
6 hours ago - A visitor from the Hawkes Bay rides AT’s buses & trains.
This is a guest post from longtime supporter Mr Plod, whose previous contributions include a proposal that Hamilton become New Zealand’s capital city, an examination on cruise control and speed limits, and that we should switch which side of the road we drive on. Greater Auckland is brought to you by a ...6 hours ago - Bridges challenges Luxon’s foreign policy
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon last Friday appeared to be starting to moderate his pivot to the United States under the foreign policy reset. Back in August he had told Australia’s Lowy Institute last August that New Zealand’s independent foreign policy was a “nonsense”. But in his latest foreign policy speech, ...9 hours ago - 2024 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #47
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Related articles belowIntroductionRecently, I’ve been having some delays in putting pen to paper.It’s not because I’m short on words -Verbosity seems to be one of the banes of my life. And it’s not because there isn’t enough content: I just whipped up a long list from the past few days.So, ...21 hours ago - Rowdy scrappers, beautiful birds
Who doesn't love to watch Tūī? Who doesn't love those colours, almost too good to be true - the deepest, glossiest, most lustrous of deep blue, the iridescent turquoise, the crisp-as-a-vicar's-collar white tuft?Who doesn't love the way they move, swooping as swift as a jet or occasionally bashing the hell ...1 day ago - Fact brief – Has human-caused climate change increased extreme weather?
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- What’s Been Happening? Political Roundup
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The gift that keeps giving: David Seymour has now opened a split in the coalition over the future of National’s promise to build a new medical school. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / TheKakaKia ora. Long stories short, here’s my top things to note in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and ...3 days ago
- Weekly Roundup 22-November-2024
It’s another Friday and we’re inching closer to the end of the year. Here’s some of the stories that have caught our attention this week. This post, like all our work, is brought to you by a largely volunteer crew and made possible by generous donations from our readers and ...3 days ago
- Beyond Question?
Record Numbers: The Hīkoi mō te Tiriti, which began at the tip of the North, and the tail of the South, on 11 November, culminated outside Parliament on Tuesday, 19 November 2024, in one of the largest demonstrations in New Zealand’s political history.ACCORDING TO TE ARA, the Ministry of Culture ...3 days ago - The Rush To Blame “The Activists”
Activists are such easy scapegoats. The right and center have been conditioned for decades to roll their eyes at all protests. The left are easily aggravated over students leading movements they see as belonging to grownups, who have more important concerns like the economy and whether the trains come on ...3 days ago - Cutting Through An Inundation of Dipshit Racists
Hi,Watching New Zealand from afar offers a strange perspective. It can be a good thing — distance from Aotearoa helped keep me sane while I reported on abuse at New Zealand’s biggest megachurch over the course of a year. It helps fuel my silly podcast. But it can also be ...3 days ago - This is bad news
The speech yesterday by Treasury’s Chief Economic Advisor warning that the books are in worse shape than forecasted looks like it’s part of a softening-up process for either more cuts or a longer wait to get back into surplus. The speech was a highly unusual public preview of Treasury’s Half-Yearly ...3 days ago
- Skeptical Science New Research for Week #47 2024
Open access notables Projected increase in the frequency of extremely active Atlantic hurricane seasons, Lopez et al., Science Advances: Future changes to the year-to-year swings between active and inactive North Atlantic tropical cyclone (TC) seasons have received little attention, yet may have great societal implications in areas prone to hurricane ...4 days ago
- Chicken Kiev
Chatting in the supermarket this morning, I found I needed to lunge for the chicken drumsticks.Coping mechanisms: who hasn’t felt a greater need for them lately?When it all gets too much, I turn to demonstrating handy butchery hacks.It wasn’t that she’d said anything wrong, our friend, not at all. We ...4 days ago - The year is 2024 and it’s 1984
This is written in response to the highly significant open letter from a group of economists that was today addressed to Christopher Luxon. The year is 2024, and it’s 1984. The country is reeling from a record Olympic medal gold haul, while the globe grapples with the choice of the ...4 days ago - The IPCA has failed
Back in 2022, RNZ took an in-depth look at the "Independent" Police Conduct Authority and its handling of killings by police. These are the most serious test of oversight, and you would expect the police's use of lethal force to receive the most severe scrutiny. But despite the police regularly ...4 days ago
- Thursday 21 November 2024
The Hīkoi mō Te Tiriti arrived at Parliament on Tuesday – the size is being debated but estimates range from 42,000 to 100,000. The Prime Minister is defending not attending due to some of the organisers being affiliated with Te Pāti Māori. The national gang patch ban came into force ...4 days ago
- ‘These budget cuts are counter-productive and make no sense’
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- ACT’s Astroturfing & A Co-ordinated Attack on Te Pati Māori
Unity on the Streets / Unity at the TableAfter the Hīkoi, all three right wing Coalition leaders came together to push the idea that the 42,000 - 50,000 + strong Hikoi was somehow less potent and brave, and more illegitimate than the energy and crowd displayed.Prime Minister Christopher Luxon 20-November: ...4 days ago - Durability of carbon dioxide removal is critical for stabilizing temperatures
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- Economists call on PM to suspend budget cuts for the sake of the economy
Nicola Willis’ budget cuts are under fire from economists for having no clear rationale and worsening the recession. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāKia ora. Long stories short, here’s my top things to note in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and poverty on Thursday, November 21: The news at ...4 days ago
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- The Treaty Principles Bill: A Who’s Who
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- 27% of kids going hungry, up from 21% in a year
One in four Kiwi children live in households where food runs out often or sometimes. Photo: Getty ImagesKia ora. Long stories short, here’s my top things to note in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and poverty on Wednesday, November 20: The lead: The official annual Health Survey found sharp ...5 days ago - Transport modelling is an illusion
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- Young Maori take over
Neither Wellington nor Parliament has ever seen anything like it before. The Police said there were more than 40,000 but however many there were, yesterday’s Hikoi to Parliament was a monumental event. It was almost three times the Foreshore and Seabed martch of 2004 and many,many times bigger than ...5 days ago
- Gordon Campbell On The Hikoi Aftermath
The euphoria from yesterday’s hikoi may be transitory, but is no less valuable for that. It is pretty rare for the left to feel itself to be in the overwhelming majority, and speaking as the voice of the people. Lest that momentum be lost, the organisers will no doubt be ...6 days ago - Sabin 33 #3 – Solar panels generate too much waste and will overwhelm landfills
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- What’s the time Mr Seymour?
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- We need to talk about Kevin
All happy families are alike; each unhappy family has a Drunk Uncle Kevin in there somewhere. If your Kevin is anything like the ones I know, he was getting along happily enough without having to think too much about the Treaty Principles Bill apart from bloody good job, onya guys ...6 days ago - The hikoi
Like everyone else (everyone who wasn't there, anyway), I've spent the morning watching the hikoi march on Parliament. The pictures are astounding: parliament grounds and the surrounding streets are full, and there are still people backed up along Lambton Quay. The police are estimating 35,000 people, and that's a floor ...6 days ago
- Why Govt & NZ Inc should boycott & regulate Facebook
6 days ago - How should we talk about change?
A better world isn’t just possible, it’s desirable. And that’s how we should frame a lot of our conversations around making a greater Auckland. As an example take urban climate action. A climate friendly Auckland: Is free from congestion Enables people to travel how they choose Is filled with ...6 days ago
- AMA + Holiday Webworm Merch!
6 days ago - Discount Code for Webworm Merch!
Hi,So there’s a bunch of new stuff on the Webworm store (www.webworm.store) — just in time for the Holidays. Read more ...6 days ago - Trying to defuse the tension
There were urgent moves yesterday at Parliament to try and defuse the tension building up over ACT’s Treaty Principles Bill. The Bill’s author, ACT leader David Seymour, told reporters that he understood the Justice Select Committee met yesterday to discuss how long it should take to consider submissions on the ...6 days ago
- An Irritable NZ Pawn – David Seymour Admits Treaty Principles Bill will clear the way for deve...
7 days ago - Gordon Campbell On The Hikoi Arrival, And Tyler Childers
Politicians like to bang on all about the need to heal society’s racial/economic divisions, but in their actions they’re more keen on stoking those divisions, with the Treaty Principles Bill being the classic example. The Bill seeks to dilute the Crown’s responsibilities to Māori at the same time as it ...7 days ago
- Socially Backwards and Fiscally Forwards: the False Ideological Divide and the “Conservative” Li...
7 days ago - Kaamos: Accepted
I appreciate that A Phuulish Fellow has been fairly quiet recently. That’s a combination of two things – comparatively little in the way of relevant material to discuss (at least until The War of the Rohirrim comes out next month), and my general work on The Secret Non-Fiction Writing Project. ...7 days ago - Here’s how governments could fix their Paris climate commitment failures
This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections Governments around the world face a conundrum. Virtually none are on track to meet their Paris climate commitments. That includes the United States, which committed to cut its emissions at least 50% below 2005 levels by 2030 but is only on track for 32-43% cuts ...1 week ago
- Unstoppable.
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- Katherine Trebeck – An Alternative Economic Narrative
The era of neoliberalism has been destructive on so many levels, with a huge growth in wealth and privilege for the one percent. A hollowing out of the state; fraying of the safety net; inadequate government investment in infrastructure; and continued environmental degradation has resulted in damage on a vast ...1 week ago - In a Manner of Speaking
In a manner of speakingI just want to sayThat I could never forget the wayYou told me everythingBy saying nothingOh, give me the wordsGive me the wordsThat tell me nothingOh, give me the wordsGive me the wordsThat tell me everythingSongwriter: Winston TongNext Tuesday, the subscription price for Nick’s Kōrero will ...1 week ago - Monday 18 November 2024
The NZNO have announced a nationwide strike for December over its pay dispute with Health NZ, who have put a 1 per cent cap on pay rises. The Hīkoi mō Te Tiriti and Treaty Principles Bill remain front and centre in the media, with the impacts of the Hana-Rawhiti Maipi-Clarke-led ...1 week ago
- Shipley warns Seymour’s bill is ‘inviting civil war’
The divisive Treaty Principles Bill is not just a risk for the National Party, it’s a risk to civil order and unity, warns a National Party grandee. Photo: Getty ImagesKia ora. Long stories short, here’s my top things to note in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and poverty on ...1 week ago - A clearer network for the City Rail Link?
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- National’s support base is wobbling
If ACT leader David Seymour intended the Treaty Principles Bill to drive a wedge into National’s support base, he may well already be succeeding. By midnight on Thursday after the Maori Party haka in Parliament, National MPs were being deluged with emails and messages from their members calling them out ...1 week ago
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The current rise of populism challenges the way we think about people’s relationship to the economy.We seem to be entering an era of populism, in which leadership in a democracy is based on preferences of the population which do not seem entirely rational nor serving their longer interests. ...
1 week ago - More lawlessness from National
On Tuesday, sick of government stonewalling, the Waitangi Tribunal issued a rare court order, ordering the Minister of Health to release unredacted documents within 48 hours showing its reasoning for disestablishing Te Aka Whai Ora, the Māori Health Authority. The government's response to the lawful order of a court? Yeah, ...1 week ago
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The Treaty Principles Bill continues to dominate political news, with it passing its first reading in the House. Parliament was briefly suspended and Te Pāti Māori MP Hana-Rawhiti Maipi-Clarke suspended for 24 hours after leading a haka that was joined by opposition MPs and the public in the gallery. Willie ...1 week ago
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- Release: National’s lack of climate action taking NZ backwards
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- Release: Simple reason for drop in emergency housing
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- Govt’s child wellbeing strategy ‘shallow and shameful’
The Government is turning its back on children by not only weakening child poverty reduction targets, but also removing child mental wellbeing as a priority focus in their Child and Youth Wellbeing Strategy. ...4 days ago
- Release: A historic win for Samoan communities
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- Government plan to reinstate live animal exports a “national disgrace”
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- Economists sound alarm on Government’s slash-and-burn approach
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...2 weeks ago
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- Without action, an apology will be empty air
For tomorrow’s apology to survivors of abuse in state and faith-based care to hold any water, the Government must not pursue the same policies that drove the abuse in the first place. ...2 weeks ago
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- Green MP’s Meme-ber’s Bill set to save the world
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- Release: Labour, Greens and Te Pāti Māori call on the Prime Minister to block the Treaty Principle...
The opposition parties stand united for an Aotearoa that honours Te Tiriti, rather than seeking to rewrite it. Labour, the Greens and Te Pāti Māori are working together against the Government’s divisive Treaty Principles Bill. ...3 weeks ago
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The server will be getting hardware changes this evening starting at 10pm NZDT.
The site will be off line for some hours.
A good news story to kick off the day.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/513961/water-tank-installation-programme-changing-lives-in-the-far-north
Life changing and affirming in many ways.
Young fellas getting skills and education. Decent water quality provided. Stopping the need to buy water in plastic. A community acquires resilience, one tank at a time.
Excellent on a lot of levels.
I remember reading about an Australian city where water tanks were being stolen regularly, as the area became drier and people bought tanks as insurance against running out of reticulated water. Not saying this will be a problem here but into the near-future, when drinking water becomes more of an issue, it will be, across the country. The concrete ones are harder to throw onto the back of a ute.
As a tangent, in the past, it appears to be a right wing or tory view to 'de-centralise' this sort of thing.
To my mind, Aotearoa needs way more of this, government funded, Iwi lead initiatives that provide local solutions by locals.
This is the way to raise boats with the tide.
It might appear that way, gsays, but they talk out of both sides of their mouth, claiming hands-off, but acting hands-on (think Fast-tracking consents with no local input, for example).
Where there are opportunities like this those who are able can act though. A subsidy for buying water tanks would be wise and the pressure (pun intended) could be taken off community reticulation systems but of course, home-tank-owners might clamour for a rates-reduction as a result and that's not a sound local councils like to hear 🙂
As a rule of thumb, the right will decentralise when that means devolving decision-making, or providing business opportunities, to their kind of people. Such as the owners of charter schools or business/farmer-dominated rural councils.
The best counter to it is probably not a reflexive urge to centralise and control – that's too easily painted as coercive. Some sort of federated decentralisation might be better, though how it would be structured needs a lot of thought.
RW decentralisation and government funded/iwi led are contradiction in terms.
The right are very actively trying to undermine iwi-led.
We should of course be doing water tanks everywhere it makes sense to, and solar (passive, hot water, power generation) on every new build and retrofit those where it makes sense to.
One of the problems with 3 waters was the ideological commitment to centralisation, as if shit isn't going to hit the fan in the next few decades, as if the only problem we have is how to pay for infrastructure upgrades.
We are in the middle of the process of renewing our water and power systems.
Very excite!
All advice has been to keep away from hydronic solar and go with photovoltaic solar and heat an element in the water cylinder.
48volt system, 8kw solar panels ( mixture of existing and new) and an Aussie Selectronic inverter.
New Tauranga built 1000litre Marshall water cylinder heated with existing hydronic solar, solid fuel and electricity.
An acquaintance spent a long weekend barging/helicoptering four >30k litre tanks onto remote whānau land in the far North.
Come the following weekend, all four had disappeared.
Sounds as though too many people knew what was going on, and some were busy hatching plans even as those deliveries were being made.
The depth of Northland's multi-decade poverty and sickness inside that article is just disgusting.
Which is interesting considering it has one of the highest proportion of land that is Maori freehold land in the country. It is also a part of the country where land confiscations did not take place.
Of more interest (than your lazy insinuations) is the dominance of the National party in that electorate working hard to improve the lives of all of their constituents, clearly.
I think rural ratepayers are more than accustomed to contributing to services they don't benefit from.
At the risk if accusations of nepotism this initiative is a good example of a circut breaker of the neo-liberal doctrine of subcontracting everything.
Local government can help with the funding.
Agree about the circuit breaker. It gives people immediate benefit and builds local community resiliency
Rural ratepayers get shafted with increasing costs for services they'll never get.
Can't even let my dog into the local Harbour due to the effluent…..a situation they've shoulder shrugged for years whilst taking the dosh for alot of new connections in raglan.
That’s on top of releasing sewage on an incoming tide now and again.
Rural ratepayers would do well to keep quiet about that.
The amount of roading alone that each rural ratepayer has, at council cost compared with urban ratepayers makes the idea that rural ratepayers are disproportionately subsidising urban services, a nonsense.
That’s a very rw argument. Roads are a public good, not just for the people that live on them.
No. It is not.
That "rural ratepayers subsidise urban services they don't use", is an often used agreement by rural businesses to try and get their rates bill reduced. To contribute less! to public services.
Ironically, in reality the subsidy goes in the opposite direction.
that is though. We don't pay as individuals for the roads we use most.
We had cause to engage with both local council and Waka Kotahi (am I allowed to still use that term?) advocating for a speed reduction on Railway Road as if enters Palmy from Bunnythump.
We were told by council that because it is an open road (100 kmh) it was a Waka Kotahi issue not Council.
Not sure if this is nation wide but rural ratepayers here are chipping in with town roads and ratepayers aren't funding rural roads.
Was entirely charmed by the prospect of a place called "Bunnythump" – sadly google suggests that it's really "Bunnythorpe".
There's no truth to the rumour that a lot of Woodvillians live there either.
Oops, sorry about that.
Farewell James Shaw good work. Made a difference. Grew the vote.
Also shoutout to the Greens for yesterday helping turn both NZFirst and ACT on the Samoan citizenship bill into next reading. Well played.
See recent comments about that Bill in yesterday's Daily Review. The Greens were genuine, and good on them, but those other two parties were just being cynical poseurs.
Made it to Select Committee.
Isn't that what's promised with the referendum on Te Tiriti?
The Greens will take it for the win it is. A very important power-shot against Luxon from his Deputy Prime Ministers.
Very curious move by Biden to consider dropping all the charges against Assange yesterday.
Could it be possible he is coming around to the p.o.v. that whatever assange did…he has been punished enough…?
I can't think of any other geopolitical reason..
A $440billion nuclear submarine programme.
How is that a reason..?
They hardly need to persuade oz to sign up for that..eh..?
Australia has always been an eager bag-carrier for america…
So I don’t see that as any reason..
Though any Assange pardon would put the Espionage case against Trump in an indefensible position.
Two factors, how long Assange has been in prison compared to the time of Manning before the pardon by Obama. And the harm to Assange caused by the prison conditions in the UK – he might not be fit to stand trial without some health spa time (risk he might die in a US prison).
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-68784298
Anyone seen any coverage of the Cass Review report – published yesterday and all over the UK papers.
Sorry Admin – I don’t know how to shrink the image.
I heard a reasonably long (3-4minutes) snippet on RNZ this morning.
From both 'sides' if th issue, sorry don't recall either woman's name, also from a transitioning person.
5m piece on Morning Report today. Was pretty good.
Govt won’t say if it will follow UK move on puberty blocker use
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018933794/govt-won-t-say-if-it-will-follow-uk-move-on-puberty-blocker-use
editing the comment to put width="100%" just before the final /> usually does it.
The Cass report was good, it's measured, it lays it all out. This is a medical scandal. It's happening in NZ too.
The only quibble I have with it is that some blame is placed on the "toxicity" of the debate. No. There was one side simply refusing to debate (and we now know from the Cass report, refusing to release data). Then the other side was saying with increasingly loud and desperate voices: there is a problem here, we need to talk about this. And then the other side responded with various iterations of "STFU bigot", and a sustained campaign of harassment and vilification that continues to this day.
There really isn't much middle ground here. One side sterilised and destroyed the sexual function of a bunch of confused kids. The other side just wanted normal medical processes to be followed.
I tend to agree with the generalisation, and I think the debate can be characterised as you say (no debate vs wants to debate).
However seeing the sweaty balls memes in the Giggle v Tickle twitter discourse, that's a clear example of being cruel and intentionally inflammatory*. If someone did that here, I would moderate them.
*It's also stupid and incontinent and damages the good work being done.
I respect your POV but I never thought women had an obligation to be kind or to refrain from mocking the eminently mockable. After the sustained campaign of vilification of women, I am even less inclined. Fuck these people. They have hurt, really hurt, vulnerable kids. They still are.
yeah, any empathy disappeared when I saw a tweet saying RT and his male friends were using the women's toilets at the court after having heard how hard that was for some women.
And it's not like this isn't his first foray into colonisation.
I suppose what I was trying to say above was that when we cross that line, it changes us too. It's hard to hold to values when we give them up.
I guess I'm just quite angry. Mostly because the Cass review only came about because an MP literally had to change a law to force the clinics to release their own data. So they knew.
I always knew being proved right wouldn't make me happy but didn't realise how angry it would make me.
the anger is entirely justified. We haven't come to the point of reckoning yet either. More anger to come I think.
JKR put up a tweet today at the end of a thread,
https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1778106344295280884
The stories of detrans people still have to hit NZ, or even The Standard. A lot of days my anger is about not being able to write posts here about it. No Debate is one of the most harmful politics I have ever seen.
Weka:
"that's a clear example of being cruel "
Except this court case is not about ‘gender affirmation’ children and adolescents.
The case is about a grown man, who at a very late stage in his life, has had women feelz. Changes the sex on his birth certificate, which recognised him as being legally a women.
In the Anti-Discrimination Act discrimination on the basis of sex is included . When this act was written it meant: biological sex (what else could it mean?).
Mr Tickle being a biological man was not allowed into a natal women only app.Whereas female transgenders are.
In this court case Sall Grover, for which she had to fundraise half million dollar, has to proof that a male can not ever become a women, no matter how much plastic surgery he undergoes or not.
And does the – sex – in the discrimination Act need to be amended to mean biological sex?
The fact that this Mr Roxky Tickle took her to court, aided by donors which are being kept secret – is somehow not cruel?
Because that is what is being done here again and again – picking off a women one at the time. Remember the process is the punishment.
Trying to come up with a name for those walking examples of contradictions-in-terms…
…the animal-eating 'green'…
..would 'garnivore' do it..?
Perhaps Virtue Signal Resistant.
Or just stick with Omnivore.
Don't really agree with yr labelling/lessening of opposition to one of the factors driving us towards the environmental-cliff..
..as 'virtue signalling'..
..and someone already has dibs on 'omnivore'..
..I am trying to define/hook together those two contradictions…the 'green'…and the animal eater…
..and the more I look at it..'garnivore'..seems to do the business..
we could explain it to you but you would just deny it.
And you are short-listed/front runner for today's condescension-award..
Go on..!..have a go…
Explain to me the justifications used by carnivores..
It does puzzle me..that they can't see it themselves..
So..have a go…and I will try really really hard to 'understand it'…
This is why I won't bother. You have an a priori position that omnivores are inherently wrong.
I don't care if someone is vegan. I care if they want the whole world to be vegan and ignore any evidence that contradicts their view. I also care about people who think there are no ethical consequences to eating animals. But you and I can't have a conversation about that because everything you stems from an ideological belief that you are right and omnivores are wrong. It's boring.
Oh..ok..end with an ad hominem..if you must..
Before you go..could you please define what 'ethical' meat/dairy is..
..for those of us too dumb to automatically know..
I ask you because you have been promoting this 'ethical' animal bits idea..
And I struggle to see any difference between what those self-labelling as 'ethical' do…and the standard cruelties/indignities heaped on by the run of the mill animal-exploiters..
.."this is fanny the 'ethical' cow.. don't get too attached to her.. she's off to the slaughterhouse next week..and we dispatched her offspring last week..we get such a good price for our 'ethical'-veal..'
It is just wall-to-wall bullshit..really..
let me put it another way. When you say,
Why would I bother when you already think it's bullshit. Why would I waste my time?
I like arguing with people who have different opinions, but there has to be an actual argument made on both sides. Running out a set of pre-determined talking points from a position of "I'm right/you're wrong" is as I said boring.
I'm a fan of the philosophical idea that we should be able to represent our opponents argument fairly. Not only can you not do that but you appear to not think it's a valuable think to do.
I understand the difficulties you would have defending your 'ethical' meat oxymoron…
But you can't even define it..?
Wot if someone else asks you to define it..?
Will you answer them..?
I'm fine with having that conversation with other people. I won't have it with you for reasons I've already explained clearly.
Human
Aahh!..well…that opens a big philosophical worm-hole..
..are we 'meant' to eat everything that walks/swims on the planet..?
..are they there for us to use/exploit/eat as we please..?
..is that how it is all meant to work..?
..and is that believed 'cos of what the bible sez..?
..or is it just habituation..?
..and/or should we live in peace with fellow earth-dwellers..?
But as a name for animal-eating 'greens'..?..it fails to define…
..'garnivore' it still is…
grarnivore works better.
Nah..!..too clumsy/contrived.. doesn't sound good to the ear..
Vegan is to eating what transsexual is to female: a minor category a few get overly excited about
So ad..you all gung-ho about this factor driving us towards the environmental cliff..eh..?
Nothing to see there..eh..?
Sticking yr hand up as a garnivore..eh..?
..can you explain what 'ethical' meat is…?..weka seems to shy away from that basic question..
unless they are doing paleo etc, I'd call them plant based.
??..puzzled by that one..
.. surely calling animal-eating 'greens' plant-based..
..is just another contradict-in-terms..?
how so? I eat plants, lots of them. Plant based.
And you eat what you call 'ethical' meat/dairy..
You are an exemplar of the afor-mentioned 'garnivore'..
You most certainly are not 'plant-based'..
And could you please define for me just what 'ethical' meat is..?
..what exactly makes it 'ethical'..and somehow ok to chow down upon..?
but I am plant based. I was vegetarian for a long time and when I added meat back into my diet, I still ate the same kind of diet plus meat. I’m don’t centre meat, I centre plants. That’s what plant based literally means, based on plants. Originally it was a term that allowed people to shift away from heavy meat eating. Now it’s a synonym for vegan, which makes it confusing and frankly dishonest.
I have never before heard of carnivores being 'plant-based'..
You are either vegetarian..or carnivore..
You can't be both at the same time..eh..?
That's another example of the 'contradiction in terms' I referred to before..
And in fact calling yourself plant-based when you eat animals could be deemed (to use your words) both 'confusing' and 'dishonest'
Weka is correct, you are wrong.
Happy to help.
Sez the flesh-addict..heh..!
No surprises there..eh..?
A remarkably silly statement – all humans are adapted to eat an omnivorous diet.
It is possible (with a great deal of diet planning and management) to eat an exclusively vegetarian diet – and remain healthy. An exclusive vegan diet requires even more rigorous dietary planning (and is never a suitable option for the very young). Both hold very significant health risks, if the diet is not carefully planned.
No humans are carnivores (i.e.they obtain either all or the majority of their dietary requirements through meat). Scurvy will quickly kill off anyone who tried it.
An omnivorous diet (incorporating a wide variety of plants, meat, fish, fungi, etc.) – is almost never going to result in any health risks.
Dietary health risks in modern society are mostly associated with highly processed foods and/or overconsumption.
That's a bit silly..a vegetarian/vegan diet has 'very significant health risks'..?
I'm just gonna laugh that one out of the room..
..what 'health risks'..exactly..?
You seem to have missed the "if the diet is not carefully planned" – section of the sentence.
Even those with the most cursory acquaintance with vegetarianism/veganism know that you have to plan, to address the risk of Vitamin B12 deficiency – for example.
this woman's story is common, I'm surprised you didn't know Phil. Maybe you're just not listening.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-7072647/VIRPI-MIKKONEN-admits-vegan-diet-ruined-health-brought-early-menopause.html
Um..!
I see yr daily mail (heh..!) defense of advertisers..
..and raise you with my 25 yrs as a vegan..and 15 yrs before that as vegetarian..(never taken vitamin supplements).
I am old..I am fit/healthy..I am on no meds..last med check was told I have the lungs of a twenty-something..(which puzzled me..given the heroic amounts of weed/hashish I have consumed..but there ya go..)..
And mores the point I know people who have been vegan for longer than me…and are older than me..
..and the one thing we all share..is rude good health..
..and at the other end I would cite all the glowing with health vegan children I have known..with my son (now adult) another example..)
(Sorry..!..I can't stop chuckling at yr idea of a reliable source..the daily mail…really..?)
Nutritionists talking about it the negative impact on women's health too.
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/women-dairy-meat-free-diet-nutrition-b1995624.html
gut health issues in women who have been vegan long term, also something I have seen talked about a lot. Although some women reach this stage after only a few years.
https://www.bodyandsoul.com.au/nutrition/how-my-vegan-diet-ruined-my-gut/news-story/d4b4fbd47581301e965d0d6a3d61cf4f
this progression, also very common in women.
https://www.newsweek.com/vegan-vegetarian-diet-health-problems-meat-1795305
So ya just hafta eat animals..to be healthy..eh..?
That's quite an extravagant claim…
..how to explain me..and all those other vegans I know..?..many of them women..
..why aren't we guzzling multiple pills…on zimmer frames..as are so many of our contemporaries..?
No, ya don’t. You just made that up. This is why I won’t debate it with you. The links are for other people to see.
btw, if you do that shit (making things up) on any post I put up about the politics of diet, I will simply ban you from the post. Best you get your head around the problem now.
What have I made up..?
You have been arguing how unhealthy a vegan diet is..
It is hard to not conclude that you are arguing that you have to eat meat to be healthy..is it not..?
And if you are also moderating any post you put up on diet…I will not be taking part…eh..?
I see it inevitably turning pear-ahaped..with the power imbalance not favouring me ..
So..go for it..
I will be interested to see what others have to say..
In this thread I have said pretty much all I need to say on the topic .
And in your upcoming piece..will you define/explain just what 'ethical' meat/dairy is..?
Your anecdata fails to convince.
I know 3 centenarians who regularly enjoy a good fry up. I don't regard them as an advertisement for that dietary lifestyle. Rather, that they've survived that long, despite a diet full of fat, not because of it.
the reasons for old age health are complex, relating I think to early diet too, but the idea that animal fat is bad for us has pretty much been debunked now. Who knows why they lived so long, but it might be because of the fat rather than despite it. We need fat for joint health and brain health among other things.
What evidence do you have for your last sentence..?
(And sorry..daily mail doesn't quite cut it..eh..?..)
(sigh..!)..I am forced to say that..'cos of daily mail claims..that are being cited/relied upon..
..as evidence of a deleterious effect..from not eating animals…
( Doesn't that even sound silly..?..)
And if googling for daily mail articles..can I suggest you ask ..'does bacon cause cancers..?..
You might find it to be quite revelatory..
You could then ask the same question about red meat..
And then ask it about dairy…
As someone who was vegetarian for around 40 years before finally eliminating dairy from my diet I don't agree with your "with a great deal of diet planning and management" and "even more rigorous dietary planning".
The switch to a animal-free diet can be done progressively. Yes the dietary changes have to be made mindfully, and yes I've seen people who said they were vegans who didn't look particularly healthy.
But it's not as hard as you make out. Depends on the motivation of course. I decided to go meat-free when I read a short book that made the case that humans do not need to kill and eat animals to live and challenged me to consider how much cruelty is created when they do.
So we started cutting back meat, joined the NZ Vegetarian Society, started buying vegetarian cookbooks and so on. We looked into what the change was going to mean and learnt more as time went on.
It is an important point for people changing their diet for whatever reason to learn that if you remove certain things from your diet you need to find those from other sources.
But it becomes easier as you go along.
I think that your comment is supporting my point. Vegetarianism requires some degree of mindfulness in dietary planning (what I describe as a 'great deal of planning and management' – you describe as progressive changes – but it's still planning which needs to happen.
Veganism requires a whole lot more.
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/vegan-meal-plan#_noHeaderPrefixedContent
Both require more than an omnivore diet.
in addition to my health improving, one of the best things about starting to eat meat again is just how easy it is to get the right nutrients compared to a vegetarian diet.
Biologically we're all omnivores.
And we all know, you can't change biology; we can pretend we're herbivores; dress as herbivores, hang out in paddocks and act like herbivores, but we never can be, coz nature made us omnivores 🙂
this is true though. Humans can make choices to work outside material reality, and we get away with that to varying extents (or not, the world is riddled with the failures of men thinking we can transcend our bodies). But our physical bodies are evolved to be omnivorous. I guess it’s technically possible that over the long term humans could physically evolve to be vegan (how many generations would that need?), but I can’t see it at this point in time because being vegan without industrial civ is very hard to maintain.
It is naturally mostly men running the everyone can be vegan line. Women find out the hard way that we cannot use our minds to escape our bodies. There are reasons there are no vegan cultures. Childbearing is a nutrient demanding process and a vegan diet just doesn’t give enough women the stuff they need to keep reproducing over generations. Killing animals is hard. If humans could easily have stopped doing that we would have.
Veganism would be a step too far for me, but not for health reasons.
And (naturally?) mostly women swallowing it, vegan hook, line and sinker. This article, written by (naturally) a man [Jordi Casamitjana], seems fairly thorough, and balanced, despite the author’s activism.
Humans have choice and we can evolve. We don't have to kill and eat sentient beings.
yes, some of us do. There are people that do well on a vegetarian diet, and a smaller number on a vegan diet. There's no need to ignore the numbers of people whose health deteriorated and then recovered when they started eating animals again. The existence of us doesn't negate your choices.
I agree entirely, Grey Area; I was just making a trans logic joke – or something like that.
I believe humans have, can and will transcend their biological selves, by exercising choice, discretion, kindness and forgiveness.
"I believe humans have, can and will transcend their biological selves, by exercising choice, discretion, kindness and forgiveness".
Even members of the current government. 😀
The human ones.
Now it’s a synonym for vegan, which makes it confusing and frankly dishonest.
It can be used by some as a synonym for vegan but there is a difference and I don't agree that stems from dishonesty.
What’s the Difference Between a Plant-Based and Vegan Diet?
“Plant-based” typically refers to one who eats a diet based primarily on plant foods, with limited to no animal-derived products. A whole foods, plant-based diet means that oils and processed packaged foods are likewise excluded.
The term “vegan” extends to one’s lifestyle choices beyond diet alone. A vegan lifestyle aims to avoid causing harm to animals in any way, including through products used or purchased.
Someone who is vegan also tends to take into account the potential negative environmental effects of animal products.
While these two terms are fundamentally different, they share similarities. Additionally, both are increasing in popularity and can be healthy ways of eating when planned properly.
Or as Forks over Knives puts it about being plant-based:
With a plant-based diet, the vast majority of food comes from plants. The term originated in the health science community, where it was more appropriate than “vegetarian” or “vegan.” First, the term is divorced from any ethical connotation; and second, it doesn’t mean “never eating meat” or “never eating animal products.” Consumption of very small amounts of animal foods can be inconsequential when speaking of the health benefits of a diet, an important nuance for science that is not captured by the term “vegan” or “vegetarian.”
What does make it confusing though is considering wholefood plant-based diets because as FoK points out some vegans eat highly processed imitation meats and cheeses.
My wife and I sometimes say we are plant-based rather than vegan because the V word can be triggering for some people because of their preconceptions, and because we still wear wool. Replacing those garments that we've had sometimes for years is wasteful and not environmentally friendly to us. Does that mean we are dishonest?
I don't know and really don't care. We are doing what we can to reduce harm to animals, help the planet, and trying to maintain a healthy diet.
Today, I saw and picked a handful of Lawyer's Wig (Coprinus comatus) mushrooms, brought them home, cooked and ate them. They were delicious!
Tomorrow, I plan to hunt-for, gather, dehydrate and store, Larch boletes and Peppery boletes, which I'll add to some dish or other in the winter-time.
Fungi! Tis the season!
Lawyer's wig is one of my favourite fungi, hardly ever see it, got to be quick!
These ones tasted exceptionally good. If you ever get the chance, try Wood Blewits; they're excellent, as are Velvet Shanks. Both grow here (and, I suspect, In Ōtepoti).
haven’t seen either of those! I get lots of birch boletes, pretty happy with them.
I describe my diet as 'plant led'. I eat eggs and fish but no meat or dairy products. My husband eats a bit of wild venison but otherwise the same as me. We grow most of our vegetables supplemented by a few field mushrooms off the lawn this morning. Big plus we have discovered is that it's a pretty cheap yet healthy way of life.
vegan means no animal products at all. It's a word that has meaning. Plant based can mean people that eat mostly vegan but some animal products. So yes, it's dishonest to say plant based when one means vegan.
Luckily I don't expect other people to go vegan and I'm not trying to fool anyone, so I don't see where the dishonesty is.
The only person I might have been fooling by using the term interchangeably is myself, because for my own reasons I wear wool jerseys and leather work boots.
I'll use "plant-based diet with no animal products I'm aware of with an ethical foundation of being anti-exploitation of, and cruelty to animals, but not strictly vegan" then in future. 🙂
I thought plant-based did mean no animal products (which is why we've used it interchangeably thinking the difference was in the motivation) but I see I was wrong about that.
But I have looked at a number of definitions of "plant-based" and several say little or no meat or animal products. So talking about diets alone, is there any difference between a plant-based diet with no meat or animal products and a vegan diet? None that I can see.
Someone saying they eat a vegan diet is not the same as them saying they are a vegan (although it could be implied). It's why I guess you tick gluten-free, vegetarian or vegan for dietary requirements.
At the moment climate collapse is the thing and we need to dramatically reduce the amount of meat and dairy products NZ and many other countries produce and consume.
As Take The Jump says: Our current eating habits are not sustainable. We can make three changes to dramatically reduce emissions from the food we eat: Move to a mostly plant-based diet. This means replacing most of the meat and dairy we eat with plant-based alternatives that are lower in overall emissions. The closer to entirely plant-based the better, though not everyone may go all the way. The upper limit for meat consumption is 16 kg a year (so try a maximum of 300 g per week) and 90 kg of dairy (so try a maximum of 1.7 kg per week). Support our biodiversity and native forests by choosing wild pig, deer, or goat meat. Customary harvesting of seafood and some birds by local iwi is another sustainable practice.
So the more people who move to a totally or mostly plant-based diet, the happier I am. We reduce emissions and fewer animals have to die to feed humans. It's a win-win.
I fully understand some won't, and others as you say, can't. But I don't worry about that.
Thanks GA, makes sense to me. I’ll give those guidelines (300 g of meat + 1.7 kg of dairy per week) a go – think I’ve already got meat covered. Will be good for me, as well as our environment – a win-win, as you say.
If only Vegan Greens can be 'worthy' in your book – you're going to end up in an increasingly isolated minority.
That's a bit of a trouser-splitting leap there bella..?
..where does your quoted 'worthy' come from..I don't recall ever saying that…did you just make that up…?
..in a reasonably long life…lived in more than a few different cultures/countries…I have come across very few people I would not consider 'worthy''..(whatever that means..)..
A recent example of (perhaps?) being open to more than most I would cite my recent interactions with p-addict/child-smacking/patched gang member..
I saw him last nite..he is on week whatever of no 'p'..gave up alcohol last week..and both he and his five children are just loving the new no-smacking life they are living…
See..!..someone deemed not 'worthy' by many…is actually..indeed that..
So I would argue against me being deemed exclusionary..
In part I argue my case here because nobody else is doing it..
..and so much written here on this existential crisis we all face..seems to ignore the role the eating/exploitation of animals plays..
..and I am just seeking to hopefully open people's eyes..to their own contradictions..
..to the horrors these animals experience..
..and to the dangers to us all their behaviour engenders ..
.. that's all…
But happy to throw derogatory terms around "flesh-addict"
https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-11-04-2024/#comment-1996022
Every comment you make on this topic implies that those who make other choices are less 'worthy' than you are.
I would say that you have to be the least enticing advocate for Veganism I've ever seen.
Are you denying that addiction to flesh-eating is a thing..?
It is a major reason for the lack of movement on this issue..
..(flesh)-addicts doing what their monkey sez..
Horrified by the very idea their heroin/alcohol/flesh (name yr poison) could be taken away from them..
Flesh-eating has all the marks of heroin addiction..and the like..
No matter the well-documented cancer-causing from red meat..bacon..etc..eh .?
The environmental damage caused .
The cruelties to the animals..
Monkey must have it's flesh…
..this is a definition of addiction…the ability to ignore the damage done..(c.f. ciggy-smoking..)
You may not like to think of yrslf as an addict.. it’s called denial..eh..?
And don’t worry..you aren’t alone..you are in the majority..
I'm pointing out that your increasingly extravagant language is alienating.
If you truly do desire to convince, rather than posture, you might reflect on why you are failing to do so.
Whether I am ' failing to do so'..is in the eye of the casual reader..
That is the value of such debates..the reader is left to evaluate the merits of the opposing arguments..
..and to make up their own mind..
So it's sorted then..
.'garnivore' it is…
(Next stop..
..urban dictionary..)
Well, 'sorted' in your own mind, which is apparently the only one that is important to you.
You will no doubt note, and discard, the fact that you seem to have garnered zero support on the site for your concept.
Wot..?..you and weka..?..right ho..!..noted..
As I said ..I am writing for the casual reader..
..and they are the jury on the worth or not of my burblings/arguments..
..not my antagonists…they are just a foil..
(And hey..!..you are on the wrong side of history..eh..?..)
So..in summary..you and fellow garnivores (patent pending)..
..are able to ignore the environmental impacts from farming flesh..(how so..?)
Are able to ignore the suffering/cruelties done to the animals you eat..
..and are able to also ignore the cancer health warnings about bacon/red meat..
(That's quite the trifecta..eh..?..)
..none of that science at all challenges the power of yr flesh-eating addiction..eh..?
(Would you like some bacon with that..?..)
My 'concept'..?
u might just pip weka at the post for todays condescension-award with that one..
I totally support Philip's ideas on this topic. Just so you know.
Whew…!… it's been a long thread..
I think I need a joint..
(Reaches for grinder..)
Parliament On Demand have changed the layout. To me the new is about 50% the user friendlieness as before. Finding a particular question on a particular day is hard. Can't easily skip the less interesting questions.
Progress of sorts – I suppose.
Sounds as though no-one should have any truck with this lot (they're operating in NZ, so be warned – not that many on this forum are likely to be clients).
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2024/apr/10/im-a-victim-of-scammers-but-revolut-says-no-to-a-refund
The new ministry of information. Only ideologically correct news, of course.
/
https://twitter.com/actparty/status/1777922547700453492
Headline should be:..
'Trust in act is plummeting'..
His very own podium of truth.. except it's a news letter, and an email..