Open mike 11/04/2024

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, April 11th, 2024 - 123 comments
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123 comments on “Open mike 11/04/2024 ”

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  1. gsays 1
    11 April 2024 at 7:17 am

    A good news story to kick off the day.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/513961/water-tank-installation-programme-changing-lives-in-the-far-north

    Life changing and affirming in many ways.

    Young fellas getting skills and education. Decent water quality provided. Stopping the need to buy water in plastic. A community acquires resilience, one tank at a time.

    • Robert Guyton 1.1
      11 April 2024 at 8:39 am

      Excellent on a lot of levels.

      I remember reading about an Australian city where water tanks were being stolen regularly, as the area became drier and people bought tanks as insurance against running out of reticulated water. Not saying this will be a problem here but into the near-future, when drinking water becomes more of an issue, it will be, across the country. The concrete ones are harder to throw onto the back of a ute.

      • gsays 1.1.1
        11 April 2024 at 8:47 am

        As a tangent, in the past, it appears to be a right wing or tory view to 'de-centralise' this sort of thing.

        To my mind, Aotearoa needs way more of this, government funded, Iwi lead initiatives that provide local solutions by locals.

        This is the way to raise boats with the tide.

        • Robert Guyton 1.1.1.1
          11 April 2024 at 8:56 am

          It might appear that way, gsays, but they talk out of both sides of their mouth, claiming hands-off, but acting hands-on (think Fast-tracking consents with no local input, for example).

          Where there are opportunities like this those who are able can act though. A subsidy for buying water tanks would be wise and the pressure (pun intended) could be taken off community reticulation systems but of course, home-tank-owners might clamour for a rates-reduction as a result and that's not a sound local councils like to hear 🙂

          • AB 1.1.1.1.1
            11 April 2024 at 1:40 pm

            As a rule of thumb, the right will decentralise when that means devolving decision-making, or providing business opportunities, to their kind of people. Such as the owners of charter schools or business/farmer-dominated rural councils.

            The best counter to it is probably not a reflexive urge to centralise and control – that's too easily painted as coercive. Some sort of federated decentralisation might be better, though how it would be structured needs a lot of thought.

        • weka 1.1.1.2
          11 April 2024 at 9:17 am

          RW decentralisation and government funded/iwi led are contradiction in terms.

          The right are very actively trying to undermine iwi-led.

          We should of course be doing water tanks everywhere it makes sense to, and solar (passive, hot water, power generation) on every new build and retrofit those where it makes sense to.

          One of the problems with 3 waters was the ideological commitment to centralisation, as if shit isn't going to hit the fan in the next few decades, as if the only problem we have is how to pay for infrastructure upgrades.

          • gsays 1.1.1.2.1
            11 April 2024 at 12:47 pm

            We are in the middle of the process of renewing our water and power systems.

            Very excite!

            All advice has been to keep away from hydronic solar and go with photovoltaic solar and heat an element in the water cylinder.

            48volt system, 8kw solar panels ( mixture of existing and new) and an Aussie Selectronic inverter.

            New Tauranga built 1000litre Marshall water cylinder heated with existing hydronic solar, solid fuel and electricity.

      • joe90 1.1.2
        11 April 2024 at 10:47 am

        Australian city where water tanks were being stolen regularly,

        An acquaintance spent a long weekend barging/helicoptering four >30k litre tanks onto remote whānau land in the far North.

        Come the following weekend, all four had disappeared.

        • Obtrectator 1.1.2.1
          11 April 2024 at 11:22 am

          Sounds as though too many people knew what was going on, and some were busy hatching plans even as those deliveries were being made.

    • Ad 1.2
      11 April 2024 at 12:52 pm

      The depth of Northland's multi-decade poverty and sickness inside that article is just disgusting.

      • Gosman 1.2.1
        11 April 2024 at 3:45 pm

        Which is interesting considering it has one of the highest proportion of land that is Maori freehold land in the country. It is also a part of the country where land confiscations did not take place.

        • JeremyB 1.2.1.1
          11 April 2024 at 4:19 pm

          Of more interest (than your lazy insinuations) is the dominance of the National party in that electorate working hard to improve the lives of all of their constituents, clearly.

  2. gsays 2
    11 April 2024 at 9:06 am

    I think rural ratepayers are more than accustomed to contributing to services they don't benefit from.

    At the risk if accusations of nepotism this initiative is a good example of a circut breaker of the neo-liberal doctrine of subcontracting everything.

    • weka 2.1
      11 April 2024 at 9:19 am

      Local government can help with the funding.

      Agree about the circuit breaker. It gives people immediate benefit and builds local community resiliency

    • tc 2.2
      11 April 2024 at 9:21 am

      Rural ratepayers get shafted with increasing costs for services they'll never get.

      Can't even let my dog into the local Harbour due to the effluent…..a situation they've shoulder shrugged for years whilst taking the dosh for alot of new connections in raglan.

      That’s on top of releasing sewage on an incoming tide now and again.

    • KJT 2.3
      11 April 2024 at 12:19 pm

      Rural ratepayers would do well to keep quiet about that.

      The amount of roading alone that each rural ratepayer has, at council cost compared with urban ratepayers makes the idea that rural ratepayers are disproportionately subsidising urban services, a nonsense.

      • weka 2.3.1
        11 April 2024 at 12:23 pm

        That’s a very rw argument. Roads are a public good, not just for the people that live on them.

        • KJT 2.3.1.1
          12 April 2024 at 11:42 am

          No. It is not.

          That "rural ratepayers subsidise urban services they don't use", is an often used agreement by rural businesses to try and get their rates bill reduced. To contribute less! to public services.

          Ironically, in reality the subsidy goes in the opposite direction.

          • weka 2.3.1.1.1
            12 April 2024 at 12:58 pm

            The amount of roading alone that each rural ratepayer has…

            that is though. We don't pay as individuals for the roads we use most.

      • gsays 2.3.2
        11 April 2024 at 12:29 pm

        We had cause to engage with both local council and Waka Kotahi (am I allowed to still use that term?) advocating for a speed reduction on Railway Road as if enters Palmy from Bunnythump.

        We were told by council that because it is an open road (100 kmh) it was a Waka Kotahi issue not Council.

        Not sure if this is nation wide but rural ratepayers here are chipping in with town roads and ratepayers aren't funding rural roads.

        • Belladonna 2.3.2.1
          11 April 2024 at 1:12 pm

          Was entirely charmed by the prospect of a place called "Bunnythump" – sadly google suggests that it's really "Bunnythorpe".

      • gsays 2.3.3
        11 April 2024 at 12:49 pm

        Oops, sorry about that.

  3. Ad 3
    11 April 2024 at 10:10 am

    Farewell James Shaw good work. Made a difference. Grew the vote.

    Also shoutout to the Greens for yesterday helping turn both NZFirst and ACT on the Samoan citizenship bill into next reading. Well played.

    • Obtrectator 3.1
      11 April 2024 at 10:15 am

      See recent comments about that Bill in yesterday's Daily Review. The Greens were genuine, and good on them, but those other two parties were just being cynical poseurs.

      • Robert Guyton 3.1.1
        11 April 2024 at 10:17 am

        Made it to Select Committee.

        Isn't that what's promised with the referendum on Te Tiriti?

      • Ad 3.1.2
        11 April 2024 at 10:19 am

        The Greens will take it for the win it is. A very important power-shot against Luxon from his Deputy Prime Ministers.

  4. Ad 4
    11 April 2024 at 10:17 am

    Very curious move by Biden to consider dropping all the charges against Assange yesterday.

    • Phillip ure 4.1
      11 April 2024 at 10:58 am

      Could it be possible he is coming around to the p.o.v. that whatever assange did…he has been punished enough…?

      I can't think of any other geopolitical reason..

      • joe90 4.1.1
        11 April 2024 at 11:13 am

        A $440billion nuclear submarine programme.

        • Phillip ure 4.1.1.1
          11 April 2024 at 11:30 am

          How is that a reason..?

          They hardly need to persuade oz to sign up for that..eh..?

          Australia has always been an eager bag-carrier for america…

          So I don’t see that as any reason..

        • Ad 4.1.1.2
          11 April 2024 at 12:15 pm

          Though any Assange pardon would put the Espionage case against Trump in an indefensible position.

          • SPC 4.1.1.2.1
            11 April 2024 at 4:11 pm

            Two factors, how long Assange has been in prison compared to the time of Manning before the pardon by Obama. And the harm to Assange caused by the prison conditions in the UK – he might not be fit to stand trial without some health spa time (risk he might die in a US prison).

            https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-68784298

  5. Visubversa 5
    11 April 2024 at 12:31 pm

    Anyone seen any coverage of the Cass Review report – published yesterday and all over the UK papers.
    Sorry Admin – I don’t know how to shrink the image.

    May be an image of 8 people, newsstand and text

    • gsays 5.1
      11 April 2024 at 12:36 pm

      I heard a reasonably long (3-4minutes) snippet on RNZ this morning.

      From both 'sides' if th issue, sorry don't recall either woman's name, also from a transitioning person.

    • weka 5.2
      11 April 2024 at 12:36 pm

      5m piece on Morning Report today. Was pretty good.

    • weka 5.3
      11 April 2024 at 1:05 pm

      Sorry Admin – I don’t know how to shrink the image.

      editing the comment to put width="100%" just before the final /> usually does it.

    • That_guy 5.4
      11 April 2024 at 1:11 pm

      The Cass report was good, it's measured, it lays it all out. This is a medical scandal. It's happening in NZ too.

      The only quibble I have with it is that some blame is placed on the "toxicity" of the debate. No. There was one side simply refusing to debate (and we now know from the Cass report, refusing to release data). Then the other side was saying with increasingly loud and desperate voices: there is a problem here, we need to talk about this. And then the other side responded with various iterations of "STFU bigot", and a sustained campaign of harassment and vilification that continues to this day.

      There really isn't much middle ground here. One side sterilised and destroyed the sexual function of a bunch of confused kids. The other side just wanted normal medical processes to be followed.

      • weka 5.4.1
        11 April 2024 at 1:36 pm

        I tend to agree with the generalisation, and I think the debate can be characterised as you say (no debate vs wants to debate).

        However seeing the sweaty balls memes in the Giggle v Tickle twitter discourse, that's a clear example of being cruel and intentionally inflammatory*. If someone did that here, I would moderate them.

        *It's also stupid and incontinent and damages the good work being done.

        • That_guy 5.4.1.1
          11 April 2024 at 2:08 pm

          I respect your POV but I never thought women had an obligation to be kind or to refrain from mocking the eminently mockable. After the sustained campaign of vilification of women, I am even less inclined. Fuck these people. They have hurt, really hurt, vulnerable kids. They still are.

          • weka 5.4.1.1.1
            11 April 2024 at 4:23 pm

            yeah, any empathy disappeared when I saw a tweet saying RT and his male friends were using the women's toilets at the court after having heard how hard that was for some women.

            And it's not like this isn't his first foray into colonisation.

            I suppose what I was trying to say above was that when we cross that line, it changes us too. It's hard to hold to values when we give them up.

        • That_guy 5.4.1.2
          11 April 2024 at 2:16 pm

          I guess I'm just quite angry. Mostly because the Cass review only came about because an MP literally had to change a law to force the clinics to release their own data. So they knew.

          I always knew being proved right wouldn't make me happy but didn't realise how angry it would make me.

          • weka 5.4.1.2.1
            11 April 2024 at 4:21 pm

            the anger is entirely justified. We haven't come to the point of reckoning yet either. More anger to come I think.

            JKR put up a tweet today at the end of a thread,

            Today's not a triumph, it's the laying bare of a tragedy.

            https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1778106344295280884

            The stories of detrans people still have to hit NZ, or even The Standard. A lot of days my anger is about not being able to write posts here about it. No Debate is one of the most harmful politics I have ever seen.

        • Tabletennis 5.4.1.3
          11 April 2024 at 4:13 pm

          Weka:
          "that's a clear example of being cruel "

          Except this court case is not about ‘gender affirmation’ children and adolescents.

          The case is about a grown man, who at a very late stage in his life, has had women feelz. Changes the sex on his birth certificate, which recognised him as being legally a women.

          In the Anti-Discrimination Act discrimination on the basis of sex is included . When this act was written it meant: biological sex (what else could it mean?).
          Mr Tickle being a biological man was not allowed into a natal women only app.Whereas female transgenders are.

          In this court case Sall Grover, for which she had to fundraise half million dollar, has to proof that a male can not ever become a women, no matter how much plastic surgery he undergoes or not.
          And does the – sex – in the discrimination Act need to be amended to mean biological sex?

          The fact that this Mr Roxky Tickle took her to court, aided by donors which are being kept secret – is somehow not cruel?
          Because that is what is being done here again and again – picking off a women one at the time. Remember the process is the punishment.

  6. Phillip ure 6
    11 April 2024 at 12:43 pm

    Trying to come up with a name for those walking examples of contradictions-in-terms…

    …the animal-eating 'green'…

    ..would 'garnivore' do it..?

    • gsays 6.1
      11 April 2024 at 12:51 pm

      Perhaps Virtue Signal Resistant.

      Or just stick with Omnivore.

      • Phillip ure 6.1.1
        11 April 2024 at 1:02 pm

        Don't really agree with yr labelling/lessening of opposition to one of the factors driving us towards the environmental-cliff..

        ..as 'virtue signalling'..

        ..and someone already has dibs on 'omnivore'..

        ..I am trying to define/hook together those two contradictions…the 'green'…and the animal eater…

        ..and the more I look at it..'garnivore'..seems to do the business..

        • weka 6.1.1.1
          11 April 2024 at 1:06 pm

          we could explain it to you but you would just deny it.

          • Phillip ure 6.1.1.1.1
            11 April 2024 at 2:06 pm

            And you are short-listed/front runner for today's condescension-award..

            Go on..!..have a go…

            Explain to me the justifications used by carnivores..

            It does puzzle me..that they can't see it themselves..

            So..have a go…and I will try really really hard to 'understand it'…

            • weka 6.1.1.1.1.1
              11 April 2024 at 2:11 pm

              It does puzzle me..that they can't see it themselves..

              This is why I won't bother. You have an a priori position that omnivores are inherently wrong.

              I don't care if someone is vegan. I care if they want the whole world to be vegan and ignore any evidence that contradicts their view. I also care about people who think there are no ethical consequences to eating animals. But you and I can't have a conversation about that because everything you stems from an ideological belief that you are right and omnivores are wrong. It's boring.

              • Phillip ure …
                11 April 2024 at 2:50 pm

                Oh..ok..end with an ad hominem..if you must..

                Before you go..could you please define what 'ethical' meat/dairy is..

                ..for those of us too dumb to automatically know..

                I ask you because you have been promoting this 'ethical' animal bits idea..

                And I struggle to see any difference between what those self-labelling as 'ethical' do…and the standard cruelties/indignities heaped on by the run of the mill animal-exploiters..

                .."this is fanny the 'ethical' cow.. don't get too attached to her.. she's off to the slaughterhouse next week..and we dispatched her offspring last week..we get such a good price for our 'ethical'-veal..'

                It is just wall-to-wall bullshit..really..

                • weka …
                  11 April 2024 at 4:03 pm

                  let me put it another way. When you say,

                  Before you go..could you please define what 'ethical' meat/dairy is..

                  Why would I bother when you already think it's bullshit. Why would I waste my time?

                  I like arguing with people who have different opinions, but there has to be an actual argument made on both sides. Running out a set of pre-determined talking points from a position of "I'm right/you're wrong" is as I said boring.

                  I'm a fan of the philosophical idea that we should be able to represent our opponents argument fairly. Not only can you not do that but you appear to not think it's a valuable think to do.

                  • Phillip ure …
                    11 April 2024 at 6:16 pm

                    I understand the difficulties you would have defending your 'ethical' meat oxymoron…

                    But you can't even define it..?

                    Wot if someone else asks you to define it..?

                    Will you answer them..?

                    • weka …
                      11 April 2024 at 7:23 pm

                      I'm fine with having that conversation with other people. I won't have it with you for reasons I've already explained clearly.

      • Phillip ure 6.2.1
        11 April 2024 at 1:11 pm

        Aahh!..well…that opens a big philosophical worm-hole..

        ..are we 'meant' to eat everything that walks/swims on the planet..?

        ..are they there for us to use/exploit/eat as we please..?

        ..is that how it is all meant to work..?

        ..and is that believed 'cos of what the bible sez..?

        ..or is it just habituation..?

        ..and/or should we live in peace with fellow earth-dwellers..?

        But as a name for animal-eating 'greens'..?..it fails to define…

        ..'garnivore' it still is…

        • weka 6.2.1.1
          11 April 2024 at 1:32 pm

          grarnivore works better.

        • Ad 6.2.1.2
          11 April 2024 at 2:26 pm

          Vegan is to eating what transsexual is to female: a minor category a few get overly excited about

          • Phillip ure 6.2.1.2.1
            11 April 2024 at 2:38 pm

            So ad..you all gung-ho about this factor driving us towards the environmental cliff..eh..?

            Nothing to see there..eh..?

            Sticking yr hand up as a garnivore..eh..?

            ..can you explain what 'ethical' meat is…?..weka seems to shy away from that basic question..

    • weka 6.3
      11 April 2024 at 1:00 pm

      unless they are doing paleo etc, I'd call them plant based.

      • Phillip ure 6.3.1
        11 April 2024 at 1:15 pm

        ??..puzzled by that one..

        .. surely calling animal-eating 'greens' plant-based..

        ..is just another contradict-in-terms..?

        • weka 6.3.1.1
          11 April 2024 at 1:30 pm

          how so? I eat plants, lots of them. Plant based.

          • Phillip ure 6.3.1.1.1
            11 April 2024 at 1:44 pm

            And you eat what you call 'ethical' meat/dairy..

            You are an exemplar of the afor-mentioned 'garnivore'..

            You most certainly are not 'plant-based'..

            And could you please define for me just what 'ethical' meat is..?

            ..what exactly makes it 'ethical'..and somehow ok to chow down upon..?

            • weka 6.3.1.1.1.1
              11 April 2024 at 1:56 pm

              but I am plant based. I was vegetarian for a long time and when I added meat back into my diet, I still ate the same kind of diet plus meat. I’m don’t centre meat, I centre plants. That’s what plant based literally means, based on plants. Originally it was a term that allowed people to shift away from heavy meat eating. Now it’s a synonym for vegan, which makes it confusing and frankly dishonest.

              • Phillip ure …
                11 April 2024 at 2:21 pm

                I have never before heard of carnivores being 'plant-based'..

                You are either vegetarian..or carnivore..

                You can't be both at the same time..eh..?

                That's another example of the 'contradiction in terms' I referred to before..

                And in fact calling yourself plant-based when you eat animals could be deemed (to use your words) both 'confusing' and 'dishonest'

                • That_guy …
                  11 April 2024 at 2:26 pm

                  Weka is correct, you are wrong.

                  Happy to help.

                • Belladonna …
                  11 April 2024 at 3:06 pm

                  You are either vegetarian..or carnivore.

                  A remarkably silly statement – all humans are adapted to eat an omnivorous diet.

                  It is possible (with a great deal of diet planning and management) to eat an exclusively vegetarian diet – and remain healthy. An exclusive vegan diet requires even more rigorous dietary planning (and is never a suitable option for the very young). Both hold very significant health risks, if the diet is not carefully planned.

                  No humans are carnivores (i.e.they obtain either all or the majority of their dietary requirements through meat). Scurvy will quickly kill off anyone who tried it.

                  An omnivorous diet (incorporating a wide variety of plants, meat, fish, fungi, etc.) – is almost never going to result in any health risks.
                  Dietary health risks in modern society are mostly associated with highly processed foods and/or overconsumption.

                  • Phillip ure …
                    11 April 2024 at 3:37 pm

                    That's a bit silly..a vegetarian/vegan diet has 'very significant health risks'..?

                    I'm just gonna laugh that one out of the room..

                    ..what 'health risks'..exactly..?

                    • Belladonna …
                      11 April 2024 at 3:58 pm

                      You seem to have missed the "if the diet is not carefully planned" – section of the sentence.

                      Even those with the most cursory acquaintance with vegetarianism/veganism know that you have to plan, to address the risk of Vitamin B12 deficiency – for example.

                    • weka …
                      11 April 2024 at 4:07 pm

                      this woman's story is common, I'm surprised you didn't know Phil. Maybe you're just not listening.

                      https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-7072647/VIRPI-MIKKONEN-admits-vegan-diet-ruined-health-brought-early-menopause.html

                    • Phillip ure []
                      11 April 2024 at 4:20 pm

                      Um..!

                      I see yr daily mail (heh..!) defense of advertisers..

                      ..and raise you with my 25 yrs as a vegan..and 15 yrs before that as vegetarian..(never taken vitamin supplements).

                      I am old..I am fit/healthy..I am on no meds..last med check was told I have the lungs of a twenty-something..(which puzzled me..given the heroic amounts of weed/hashish I have consumed..but there ya go..)..

                      And mores the point I know people who have been vegan for longer than me…and are older than me..

                      ..and the one thing we all share..is rude good health..

                      ..and at the other end I would cite all the glowing with health vegan children I have known..with my son (now adult) another example..)

                      (Sorry..!..I can't stop chuckling at yr idea of a reliable source..the daily mail…really..?)

                    • weka …
                      11 April 2024 at 4:11 pm

                      gut health issues in women who have been vegan long term, also something I have seen talked about a lot. Although some women reach this stage after only a few years.

                      https://www.bodyandsoul.com.au/nutrition/how-my-vegan-diet-ruined-my-gut/news-story/d4b4fbd47581301e965d0d6a3d61cf4f

                    • Phillip ure []
                      11 April 2024 at 4:28 pm

                      So ya just hafta eat animals..to be healthy..eh..?

                      That's quite an extravagant claim…

                      ..how to explain me..and all those other vegans I know..?..many of them women..

                      ..why aren't we guzzling multiple pills…on zimmer frames..as are so many of our contemporaries..?

                    • weka []
                      11 April 2024 at 4:36 pm

                      So ya just hafta eat animals..to be healthy..eh..?

                      No, ya don’t. You just made that up. This is why I won’t debate it with you. The links are for other people to see.

                    • weka []
                      11 April 2024 at 4:38 pm

                      btw, if you do that shit (making things up) on any post I put up about the politics of diet, I will simply ban you from the post. Best you get your head around the problem now.

                    • Phillip ure []
                      11 April 2024 at 6:30 pm

                      What have I made up..?

                      You have been arguing how unhealthy a vegan diet is..

                      It is hard to not conclude that you are arguing that you have to eat meat to be healthy..is it not..?

                      And if you are also moderating any post you put up on diet…I will not be taking part…eh..?

                      I see it inevitably turning pear-ahaped..with the power imbalance not favouring me ..

                      So..go for it..

                      I will be interested to see what others have to say..

                      In this thread I have said pretty much all I need to say on the topic .

                      And in your upcoming piece..will you define/explain just what 'ethical' meat/dairy is..?

                    • Belladonna …
                      11 April 2024 at 4:26 pm

                      Your anecdata fails to convince.
                      I know 3 centenarians who regularly enjoy a good fry up. I don't regard them as an advertisement for that dietary lifestyle. Rather, that they've survived that long, despite a diet full of fat, not because of it.

                    • weka []
                      11 April 2024 at 4:31 pm

                      the reasons for old age health are complex, relating I think to early diet too, but the idea that animal fat is bad for us has pretty much been debunked now. Who knows why they lived so long, but it might be because of the fat rather than despite it. We need fat for joint health and brain health among other things.

                    • Phillip ure []
                      11 April 2024 at 4:38 pm

                      What evidence do you have for your last sentence..?

                      (And sorry..daily mail doesn't quite cut it..eh..?..)

                    • Phillip ure []
                      11 April 2024 at 4:34 pm

                      (sigh..!)..I am forced to say that..'cos of daily mail claims..that are being cited/relied upon..

                      ..as evidence of a deleterious effect..from not eating animals…

                      ( Doesn't that even sound silly..?..)

                      And if googling for daily mail articles..can I suggest you ask ..'does bacon cause cancers..?..

                      You might find it to be quite revelatory..

                      You could then ask the same question about red meat..

                      And then ask it about dairy…

                  • Grey Area …
                    11 April 2024 at 6:00 pm

                    As someone who was vegetarian for around 40 years before finally eliminating dairy from my diet I don't agree with your "with a great deal of diet planning and management" and "even more rigorous dietary planning".

                    The switch to a animal-free diet can be done progressively. Yes the dietary changes have to be made mindfully, and yes I've seen people who said they were vegans who didn't look particularly healthy.

                    But it's not as hard as you make out. Depends on the motivation of course. I decided to go meat-free when I read a short book that made the case that humans do not need to kill and eat animals to live and challenged me to consider how much cruelty is created when they do.

                    So we started cutting back meat, joined the NZ Vegetarian Society, started buying vegetarian cookbooks and so on. We looked into what the change was going to mean and learnt more as time went on.

                    It is an important point for people changing their diet for whatever reason to learn that if you remove certain things from your diet you need to find those from other sources.

                    But it becomes easier as you go along.

                    • Belladonna …
                      11 April 2024 at 6:42 pm

                      I think that your comment is supporting my point. Vegetarianism requires some degree of mindfulness in dietary planning (what I describe as a 'great deal of planning and management' – you describe as progressive changes – but it's still planning which needs to happen.

                      Veganism requires a whole lot more.

                      However, finding balanced, healthy meals on a vegan diet can often be difficult and overwhelming.

                      If improperly planned, vegan diets may cause nutritional deficiencies and health problems.

                      https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/vegan-meal-plan#_noHeaderPrefixedContent

                      Both require more than an omnivore diet.

                    • weka …
                      11 April 2024 at 7:11 pm

                      in addition to my health improving, one of the best things about starting to eat meat again is just how easy it is to get the right nutrients compared to a vegetarian diet.

                • Michael P …
                  11 April 2024 at 6:15 pm

                  Biologically we're all omnivores.

                  • Robert Guyton …
                    11 April 2024 at 6:51 pm

                    And we all know, you can't change biology; we can pretend we're herbivores; dress as herbivores, hang out in paddocks and act like herbivores, but we never can be, coz nature made us omnivores 🙂

                    • weka …
                      12 April 2024 at 9:12 am

                      this is true though. Humans can make choices to work outside material reality, and we get away with that to varying extents (or not, the world is riddled with the failures of men thinking we can transcend our bodies). But our physical bodies are evolved to be omnivorous. I guess it’s technically possible that over the long term humans could physically evolve to be vegan (how many generations would that need?), but I can’t see it at this point in time because being vegan without industrial civ is very hard to maintain.

                      It is naturally mostly men running the everyone can be vegan line. Women find out the hard way that we cannot use our minds to escape our bodies. There are reasons there are no vegan cultures. Childbearing is a nutrient demanding process and a vegan diet just doesn’t give enough women the stuff they need to keep reproducing over generations. Killing animals is hard. If humans could easily have stopped doing that we would have.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      12 April 2024 at 12:19 pm

                      Veganism would be a step too far for me, but not for health reasons.

                      It is naturally mostly men running the everyone can be vegan line.

                      And (naturally?) mostly women swallowing it, vegan hook, line and sinker. This article, written by (naturally) a man [Jordi Casamitjana], seems fairly thorough, and balanced, despite the author’s activism.

                      Is Veganism Led by Women? [17 February 2023]
                      Despite all this uncertainty, let’s assume there are significantly more vegans identifying as women than as men. Why would that be? The Beet website has speculated the following reasons: 1) women are nurturing by nature, 2) women may be more interested in self-improvement than men, 3) men are afraid to give up their “grillmaster” rep, 4) women feel more pressure to be slim, 5) hormones, hormones, hormones, 6) women want to reap the benefits of anti-inflammatory diets, and 7) women want to take charge of their mental wellbeing. Some of these may be true factors, while others may be expected stereotypes.

                      The BBC has also speculated about it, stating that when women hold two incompatible beliefs, they are more likely to change their behaviour to reconcile them, while men, by comparison, tend to dig themselves in. Perhaps this psychological insight holds water as a 2022 study from Perez-Cueto et al. found that women tend to score lower in all barrier statements toward plant-based food consumption.

                      Men, Women, and Ghosts in Science [17 January 2006]
                      Baron-Cohen makes one point crystal clear: you cannot deduce the psychological characteristics of any person by knowing their sex.
                      …
                      Males tend to think narrowly and obsess, while females think broadly, taking into account balancing arguments. Classifying individuals in general terms, he concludes that among men, about 60% have a male brain, 20% have a balanced brain, and 20% have a female brain. Women show the inverse figures, with some 60% having a female brain.

                  • Grey Area …
                    11 April 2024 at 7:09 pm

                    Humans have choice and we can evolve. We don't have to kill and eat sentient beings.

                    • weka …
                      11 April 2024 at 7:14 pm

                      yes, some of us do. There are people that do well on a vegetarian diet, and a smaller number on a vegan diet. There's no need to ignore the numbers of people whose health deteriorated and then recovered when they started eating animals again. The existence of us doesn't negate your choices.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      11 April 2024 at 7:22 pm

                      I agree entirely, Grey Area; I was just making a trans logic joke – or something like that.

                      I believe humans have, can and will transcend their biological selves, by exercising choice, discretion, kindness and forgiveness.

                    • Grey Area []
                      11 April 2024 at 10:17 pm

                      "I believe humans have, can and will transcend their biological selves, by exercising choice, discretion, kindness and forgiveness".

                      Even members of the current government. 😀

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      12 April 2024 at 7:59 am

                      The human ones.

              • Grey Area …
                11 April 2024 at 5:15 pm

                Now it’s a synonym for vegan, which makes it confusing and frankly dishonest.

                It can be used by some as a synonym for vegan but there is a difference and I don't agree that stems from dishonesty.

                What’s the Difference Between a Plant-Based and Vegan Diet?

                “Plant-based” typically refers to one who eats a diet based primarily on plant foods, with limited to no animal-derived products. A whole foods, plant-based diet means that oils and processed packaged foods are likewise excluded.

                The term “vegan” extends to one’s lifestyle choices beyond diet alone. A vegan lifestyle aims to avoid causing harm to animals in any way, including through products used or purchased.

                Someone who is vegan also tends to take into account the potential negative environmental effects of animal products.

                While these two terms are fundamentally different, they share similarities. Additionally, both are increasing in popularity and can be healthy ways of eating when planned properly.

                Or as Forks over Knives puts it about being plant-based:

                With a plant-based diet, the vast majority of food comes from plants. The term originated in the health science community, where it was more appropriate than “vegetarian” or “vegan.” First, the term is divorced from any ethical connotation; and second, it doesn’t mean “never eating meat” or “never eating animal products.” Consumption of very small amounts of animal foods can be inconsequential when speaking of the health benefits of a diet, an important nuance for science that is not captured by the term “vegan” or “vegetarian.”

                What does make it confusing though is considering wholefood plant-based diets because as FoK points out some vegans eat highly processed imitation meats and cheeses.

                My wife and I sometimes say we are plant-based rather than vegan because the V word can be triggering for some people because of their preconceptions, and because we still wear wool. Replacing those garments that we've had sometimes for years is wasteful and not environmentally friendly to us. Does that mean we are dishonest?

                I don't know and really don't care. We are doing what we can to reduce harm to animals, help the planet, and trying to maintain a healthy diet.

                • Robert Guyton …
                  11 April 2024 at 5:29 pm

                  Today, I saw and picked a handful of Lawyer's Wig (Coprinus comatus) mushrooms, brought them home, cooked and ate them. They were delicious!

                  Tomorrow, I plan to hunt-for, gather, dehydrate and store, Larch boletes and Peppery boletes, which I'll add to some dish or other in the winter-time.

                  Fungi! Tis the season!

                  • weka …
                    11 April 2024 at 7:10 pm

                    Lawyer's wig is one of my favourite fungi, hardly ever see it, got to be quick!

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      11 April 2024 at 7:24 pm

                      These ones tasted exceptionally good. If you ever get the chance, try Wood Blewits; they're excellent, as are Velvet Shanks. Both grow here (and, I suspect, In Ōtepoti).

                    • weka []
                      12 April 2024 at 9:05 am

                      haven’t seen either of those! I get lots of birch boletes, pretty happy with them.

                • Matiri …
                  11 April 2024 at 6:59 pm

                  I describe my diet as 'plant led'. I eat eggs and fish but no meat or dairy products. My husband eats a bit of wild venison but otherwise the same as me. We grow most of our vegetables supplemented by a few field mushrooms off the lawn this morning. Big plus we have discovered is that it's a pretty cheap yet healthy way of life.

                • weka …
                  11 April 2024 at 7:22 pm

                  vegan means no animal products at all. It's a word that has meaning. Plant based can mean people that eat mostly vegan but some animal products. So yes, it's dishonest to say plant based when one means vegan.

                  • Grey Area …
                    11 April 2024 at 9:58 pm

                    Luckily I don't expect other people to go vegan and I'm not trying to fool anyone, so I don't see where the dishonesty is.

                    The only person I might have been fooling by using the term interchangeably is myself, because for my own reasons I wear wool jerseys and leather work boots.

                    I'll use "plant-based diet with no animal products I'm aware of with an ethical foundation of being anti-exploitation of, and cruelty to animals, but not strictly vegan" then in future. 🙂

                    I thought plant-based did mean no animal products (which is why we've used it interchangeably thinking the difference was in the motivation) but I see I was wrong about that.

                    But I have looked at a number of definitions of "plant-based" and several say little or no meat or animal products. So talking about diets alone, is there any difference between a plant-based diet with no meat or animal products and a vegan diet? None that I can see.

                    Someone saying they eat a vegan diet is not the same as them saying they are a vegan (although it could be implied). It's why I guess you tick gluten-free, vegetarian or vegan for dietary requirements.

                    At the moment climate collapse is the thing and we need to dramatically reduce the amount of meat and dairy products NZ and many other countries produce and consume.

                    As Take The Jump says: Our current eating habits are not sustainable. We can make three changes to dramatically reduce emissions from the food we eat: Move to a mostly plant-based diet. This means replacing most of the meat and dairy we eat with plant-based alternatives that are lower in overall emissions. The closer to entirely plant-based the better, though not everyone may go all the way. The upper limit for meat consumption is 16 kg a year (so try a maximum of 300 g per week) and 90 kg of dairy (so try a maximum of 1.7 kg per week). Support our biodiversity and native forests by choosing wild pig, deer, or goat meat. Customary harvesting of seafood and some birds by local iwi is another sustainable practice.

                    So the more people who move to a totally or mostly plant-based diet, the happier I am. We reduce emissions and fewer animals have to die to feed humans. It's a win-win.

                    I fully understand some won't, and others as you say, can't. But I don't worry about that.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      11 April 2024 at 10:36 pm

                      Thanks GA, makes sense to me. I’ll give those guidelines (300 g of meat + 1.7 kg of dairy per week) a go – think I’ve already got meat covered. Will be good for me, as well as our environment – a win-win, as you say.

    • Belladonna 6.4
      11 April 2024 at 1:06 pm

      If only Vegan Greens can be 'worthy' in your book – you're going to end up in an increasingly isolated minority.

      • Phillip ure 6.4.1
        11 April 2024 at 1:37 pm

        That's a bit of a trouser-splitting leap there bella..?

        ..where does your quoted 'worthy' come from..I don't recall ever saying that…did you just make that up…?

        ..in a reasonably long life…lived in more than a few different cultures/countries…I have come across very few people I would not consider 'worthy''..(whatever that means..)..

        A recent example of (perhaps?) being open to more than most I would cite my recent interactions with p-addict/child-smacking/patched gang member..

        I saw him last nite..he is on week whatever of no 'p'..gave up alcohol last week..and both he and his five children are just loving the new no-smacking life they are living…

        See..!..someone deemed not 'worthy' by many…is actually..indeed that..

        So I would argue against me being deemed exclusionary..

        In part I argue my case here because nobody else is doing it..

        ..and so much written here on this existential crisis we all face..seems to ignore the role the eating/exploitation of animals plays..

        ..and I am just seeking to hopefully open people's eyes..to their own contradictions..

        ..to the horrors these animals experience..

        ..and to the dangers to us all their behaviour engenders ..

        .. that's all…

        • Belladonna 6.4.1.1
          11 April 2024 at 2:48 pm

          But happy to throw derogatory terms around "flesh-addict"
          https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-11-04-2024/#comment-1996022

          Every comment you make on this topic implies that those who make other choices are less 'worthy' than you are.

          I would say that you have to be the least enticing advocate for Veganism I've ever seen.

          • Phillip ure 6.4.1.1.1
            11 April 2024 at 3:04 pm

            Are you denying that addiction to flesh-eating is a thing..?

            It is a major reason for the lack of movement on this issue..

            ..(flesh)-addicts doing what their monkey sez..

            Horrified by the very idea their heroin/alcohol/flesh (name yr poison) could be taken away from them..

            Flesh-eating has all the marks of heroin addiction..and the like..

            No matter the well-documented cancer-causing from red meat..bacon..etc..eh .?

            The environmental damage caused .

            The cruelties to the animals..

            Monkey must have it's flesh…

            ..this is a definition of addiction…the ability to ignore the damage done..(c.f. ciggy-smoking..)

            You may not like to think of yrslf as an addict.. it’s called denial..eh..?

            And don’t worry..you aren’t alone..you are in the majority..

            • Belladonna 6.4.1.1.1.1
              11 April 2024 at 3:09 pm

              I'm pointing out that your increasingly extravagant language is alienating.

              If you truly do desire to convince, rather than posture, you might reflect on why you are failing to do so.

              • Phillip ure …
                11 April 2024 at 3:17 pm

                Whether I am ' failing to do so'..is in the eye of the casual reader..

                That is the value of such debates..the reader is left to evaluate the merits of the opposing arguments..

                ..and to make up their own mind..

                • Phillip ure …
                  11 April 2024 at 4:06 pm

                  So it's sorted then..

                  .'garnivore' it is…

                  (Next stop..

                  ..urban dictionary..)

                  • Belladonna …
                    11 April 2024 at 4:30 pm

                    Well, 'sorted' in your own mind, which is apparently the only one that is important to you.

                    You will no doubt note, and discard, the fact that you seem to have garnered zero support on the site for your concept.

                    • Phillip ure …
                      11 April 2024 at 4:51 pm

                      Wot..?..you and weka..?..right ho..!..noted..

                      As I said ..I am writing for the casual reader..

                      ..and they are the jury on the worth or not of my burblings/arguments..

                      ..not my antagonists…they are just a foil..

                      (And hey..!..you are on the wrong side of history..eh..?..)

                      So..in summary..you and fellow garnivores (patent pending)..

                      ..are able to ignore the environmental impacts from farming flesh..(how so..?)

                      Are able to ignore the suffering/cruelties done to the animals you eat..

                      ..and are able to also ignore the cancer health warnings about bacon/red meat..

                      (That's quite the trifecta..eh..?..)

                      ..none of that science at all challenges the power of yr flesh-eating addiction..eh..?

                      (Would you like some bacon with that..?..)

                    • Phillip ure …
                      11 April 2024 at 5:00 pm

                      My 'concept'..?

                      u might just pip weka at the post for todays condescension-award with that one..

                    • Immigrant …
                      11 April 2024 at 7:19 pm

                      I totally support Philip's ideas on this topic. Just so you know.

                    • Phillip ure []
                      11 April 2024 at 8:11 pm

                      Whew…!… it's been a long thread..

                      I think I need a joint..

                      (Reaches for grinder..)

  7. ianmac 7
    11 April 2024 at 3:44 pm

    Parliament On Demand have changed the layout. To me the new is about 50% the user friendlieness as before. Finding a particular question on a particular day is hard. Can't easily skip the less interesting questions.

    Progress of sorts – I suppose.

  8. Obtrectator 8
    11 April 2024 at 3:50 pm

    Sounds as though no-one should have any truck with this lot (they're operating in NZ, so be warned – not that many on this forum are likely to be clients).

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2024/apr/10/im-a-victim-of-scammers-but-revolut-says-no-to-a-refund

  9. Joe90 9
    11 April 2024 at 4:39 pm

    The new ministry of information. Only ideologically correct news, of course.

    /

    https://twitter.com/actparty/status/1777922547700453492

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