Open mike 11/05/2019

177 comments on “Open mike 11/05/2019 ”

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1. Pete George 1

   11 May 2019 at 8:03 am

   The Prime Minister has set up a semi-secretive digital and media expert group to advise on regulating social media. It took an OIA request by @MatthewHootonNZ to disclose the identity of members of the group.

   • Jordan Carter, Chief Executive, Internet NZ
   • Nat Torkington, technologist
   • Miriyana Alexander, Premium Content Editor, NZME
   • Rick Shera, Internet and Digital Business Law Partner, Lowndes Jordan
   • Michael Wallmansberger, cybersecurity professional, independent director; Chair of the CERT NZ Establishment Advisory Board
   • Victoria Maclennan, Managing Director, MD OptimalBI Ltd; Chair of the Digital Economy and Digital Inclusion Ministerial Advisory Group; Co-Chair, NZRise
   • John Wesley-Smith, GL Regulatory Affairs, Spark
   • Lizzie Marvelly, NZ Herald columnist, Villainesse.com co-founder and editor

   But the objectives remain secret 'in the public interest'.

   https://yournz.org/2019/05/11/digital-and-media-expert-group-advising-on-social-media-regulation-revealed/
   • lprent 1.1

     11 May 2019 at 9:19 am

     Four points.

     1. This is an advisory group. Most politicians could easily be described as extreme technophobes (by my standards). They need advice about what is achievable and desirable.

     2. I know several of those listed. I really don’t have any issues. They provide the required bridge between the technical and the political.

     3. If there are any problems with implementing their advice, I am pretty sure that they will be entirely aware of exactly how the technical community who have to implement it will view and deal with it.

     4. Hooton is technically a useless idiot who specializes in disruption. I’d prefer the people I know on this list to give advice to politicians.
     • RedLogix 1.1.1

       11 May 2019 at 9:36 am

       My handy rule of thumb on this sort of thing is to ask 'how might my political adversaries use this power or regulation against me, when they next get the levers of power in their hands?'

       Or in this instance, imagine if National had set up a 'semi-secret' committee to propose regulating social media and 'left wing extremism' … for instance.
       • Sacha 1.1.1.1

         11 May 2019 at 11:42 am

         .. imagine if National had set up a 'semi-secret' committee to propose regulating social media and 'left wing extremism'

         To get quick advice after a left-wing terrorist mass murder entangled with social media? Sure, I can imagine that. As Mr George notes, the objectives did not arise from the advisory group.
     • Pete George 1.1.2

       11 May 2019 at 11:01 am

       I'd prefer the consultation was being done a lot more widely and openly.

       Withholding any information about the objectives of the group is troubling. Either they are keeping the objectives secret (having considered the public interest), or they have formed the group and started operating with no objectives (and no work programme established). There must be objectives to have prompted the formation of the group.
       • Sacha 1.1.2.1

         11 May 2019 at 11:29 am

         It's not a broad "consultation" vehicle; it is a dedicated group for specific advice at a particular time.

         Government is full of them and they are not a substitute for broader engagement during policy processes. By all means jump up and down if there are resulting law changes without appropriate process.
         • Pete George 1.1.2.1.1

           11 May 2019 at 11:52 am

           If there are resulting law changes without appropriate process I think it's far too late.

           What if those law changes required full time moderation of The Standard? Or made it illegal to criticise laws that regulate speech in social media?

           Best to jump up and down when it might still make a difference. I don't think we should leave it up to a group working on a secret agenda to serve our best interests.
           • Sacha 1.1.2.1.1.1

             11 May 2019 at 11:59 am

             You are acting as if this advisory group can set law.
             • Pete George …

               11 May 2019 at 12:39 pm

               Funny. Are you serious?

               Do you think that policy on the regulation of speech in social media should be formulated in secret? It's not just an advisory group that's involved, it's the Government who set up the group and meet with the group.

               And as I understand things the Government can set law.
               • Sacha …

                 11 May 2019 at 12:48 pm

                 Advice is not policy 'formulation'. Govt has a process to set law. Consultation is part of that process.
               • lprent …

                 11 May 2019 at 1:58 pm

                 And as I understand things the Government can set law.

                 Your understanding is quite flawed.

                 Parliament can set law. The Legislative council can request changes in regulation. The cabinet can propose legislation to Parliament and regulation to the GG. Even that is subject to scrutiny by various bodies like the soliciter general, various statutory bodies, and eventually the courts.

                 Plus of course we live in a MMP system. That means coalition agreement.

                 Any proposal is a compromise. Requiring advice.

                 The ‘goverment’ is an interesting near fiction.. They can initiate but not control without agreement – what century are you living in?
                 • OnceWasTim …

                   11 May 2019 at 7:04 pm

                   🙂

                   "The ‘goverment’ is an interesting near fiction.. They can initiate but not control without agreement – what century are you living in?"

                   Linear time is an irrelevance to the man in the beige safari suit (just as it is, and has become to a good number in that 'gummint'). Much as he'd like to be operating in the 5th Dimension, we've yet to discover Pete's Whurl of Reality
           • Sacha 1.1.2.1.1.2

             11 May 2019 at 12:57 pm

             "I don't think we should leave it up to a group working on a secret agenda to serve our best interests."

             Continue to lobby the government.
       • cleangreen 1.1.2.2

         11 May 2019 at 11:30 am

         I agree Pete.

         I’d prefer the consultation was being done a lot more widely and openly.

         Jacinda promised us to be included, – she said "her government will bring a kinder warmer inclusive Government"

         Jacinda lets have inclusion please.
         • OnceWasTim 1.1.2.2.1

           11 May 2019 at 7:29 pm

           Sorry to say @ Cleeangreen "Jacinda lets have inclusion please" probably won't happen in your (or my) lifetime. You should have had learnings by now that buzz such as 'inclusion' – even 'truth' are subject to an individual's interpretation.

           All very nice of course, AND aspirational (going forward).

           If Marx were alive today, it wouldn't be a case of religion being the opium of the sheeple, but consumerism and the gorgeous self.

           And why not? Like a sex addict would say – what better way to go out than to fuck yourself to death. Bugger all else
       • SPC 1.1.2.3

         11 May 2019 at 1:42 pm

         It's patently obvious from the group slection what it is about, even Hooton must know even if he pretends otherwise for political stirring reasons – to feed the paranoia of the paranoid.

         This is just the group one would form before the Paris meet, it certainly looks like one associated with the take down notice implementation regime for social media the Paris meet will try to agree on (inciting violence, promotion of violence glorification of violence etc).

         The Paris meet is narrowly focused and does not include hate speech law, so no reason to get your …
         • Sacha 1.1.2.3.1

           11 May 2019 at 1:54 pm

           … doesn't bear thinking about. 🙂
   • Psycho Milt 1.2

     11 May 2019 at 12:40 pm

     But the objectives remain secret 'in the public interest'.

     That, and the fact there are no civil libertarians or free speech advocates on the panel, suggest the government has an agenda of censorship but would prefer not to advertise the fact.

     At this point, it would help if we had a credible opposition party, rather than the collection of ruthless, smarmy grifters that is our National Party caucus.
     • Sacha 1.2.1

       11 May 2019 at 12:51 pm

       "the fact there are no civil libertarians or free speech advocates on the panel"

       Really? From panel member and long-time internet expert Nathan Torkington: https://twitter.com/gnat/status/1126991181554970626

       I channelled the EFF, provided lists of similar orgs and people critical of censorship who should be engaged, IDed good speech not to be lost while chasing terrorists, etc.
     • SPC 1.2.2

       11 May 2019 at 1:44 pm

       No reason to, as it has nothing to do with censoring free speech, the Paris meet does not even cover hate speech. See my 1123.
   • The Chairman 1.3

     11 May 2019 at 12:44 pm

     Bomber raises a good point

     https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2019/05/11/ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm-shouldnt-an-advisory-board-to-the-pm-on-censoring-the-internet-require-some-academics-and-experts-on-civil-rights-and-freedom-of-speech/
     • Sacha 1.3.1

       11 May 2019 at 12:55 pm

       It's like you guys know little about either the historically US-liberal culture of internet policy, or about the specific people named here.
       • The Chairman 1.3.1.1

         11 May 2019 at 12:58 pm

         And what leads you to assert that?
         • Sacha 1.3.1.1.1

           11 May 2019 at 1:03 pm

           Relevant knowledge.
     • lprent 1.3.2

       11 May 2019 at 1:35 pm

       Most academics have absolutely no experience with the underlying structure of the internet. Why would anyone think that they have much to contribute at a technical level?

       And you’d have to be daft to think that anything can be done except at a technical level when it comes to the net.

       If you look at the speed used in the legal system with any of the existing tools like the defamation act, privacy act, HDCA, or even the police – then they take years to deal with.

       It is hard to see what else could be done with anything like the existing structures. Besides getting anything done would be

       And anything else relies upon the technical people to have figured out something that will actually work.

       After that is done, then we can use wafflers to fine-tune it.
       • The Chairman 1.3.2.1

         11 May 2019 at 1:49 pm

         Academics can help provide balance in the creation of the policy ideas being tested.
         • Sacha 1.3.2.1.1

           11 May 2019 at 1:53 pm

           "After that is done, then we can use wafflers to fine-tune it."
           • The Chairman 1.3.2.1.1.1

             11 May 2019 at 2:07 pm

             It would be preferable to have their input in the initial creation of the policy ideas.

             This would publicly demonstrate that safeguards to freedom of speech will be instilled from the outset.
             • Incognito …

               11 May 2019 at 4:23 pm

               Nobody is stopping academics and universities to fulfil their legal role acting as critics and conscience of society. One would like to think that the Government does listen to advice from more than one source and that one advisory group would neither have or aim for a monopoly on nor as a filter of genuine proper advice.
               • The Chairman …

                 11 May 2019 at 4:36 pm

                 Yes, one would like to think that. However, thus far, in this instance the Government hasn't shown that.
                 • Incognito …

                   11 May 2019 at 4:45 pm

                   Just because I see a red flag doesn’t mean the whole world is a red flag. I can zoom in and out, I can entertain multiple PoVs, I can even attempt integration of multi-level or paradoxical concepts. In very few instances, I will even admit that I don’t know shit. Or I can decide to stare myself blind on the bird shit splatter on the windscreen and drive off the road into a ditch.
                   • Sacha …

                     11 May 2019 at 8:07 pm

                     Hooters is whipping himself into a frenzy over this as well. Tunnel vision narrowing ..
     • SPC 1.3.3

       11 May 2019 at 1:46 pm

       Not really, the group is advising on the take down regime, implementation – not legislative policy on free speech and hate speech.
       • The Chairman 1.3.3.1

         11 May 2019 at 1:58 pm

         It is stated the group provides an informal way to test policy ideas.
         • SPC 1.3.3.1.1

           11 May 2019 at 2:13 pm

           In this case, merely implementation – practicality of.

           If hate speech legislation were proposed it would go through the Select Committee process.
           • The Chairman 1.3.3.1.1.1

             11 May 2019 at 2:43 pm

             Nevertheless, policy ideas are being drafted and tested.
   • Gabby 1.4

     11 May 2019 at 3:51 pm

     She didn't ask Sarah Dowie? WTF?
     • Robert Guyton 1.4.1

       11 May 2019 at 3:54 pm

       Well, that's just irresponsible and it's clear why Pete George and The Chairman are full-on affronted!
2. mac1 2

   11 May 2019 at 8:11 am

   There's been some angry reactions from some gun owners recently. A former neighbour weighed in against the PM, and all politicians when I pointed out that all but one MPs had voted for the Act, because friends who had been active on social media and were gun owners got a visit from the police.

   Today in the Press we learn of armed police teams raiding the homes of two men who the day after the mosque shootings went and bought AR15 style weapons from Gun City in Christchurch.

   They just didn't get that such a response was brought about by their actions. They bought the weapons hoping that existing gun owners would be exempt. ONe said he'd 'always wanted one.' They didn't hand in the weapons having found out the weapons would have to be impounded. They bought the guns in the same city as the massacre one day after.

   They got upset because a team of armed police visited a man who bought the same weapon as used in the massacre which killed 51 people, and acted according to the possible threat and danger from a man who had two assault convictions.

   As Mrs Mac1 says, " we have some very fragile people in our country."
   • dv 2.1

     11 May 2019 at 9:26 am

     I had some sympathy until i read they bought the guns the day after the raids in ChCh . DUH
   • James 2.2

     11 May 2019 at 12:03 pm

     did they buy the guns legally?

     If so – whats the problem? There is no justification of a raid unless there was evidence they were planning something
     • Sacha 2.2.1

       11 May 2019 at 12:11 pm

       There had just been a major terrorist mass murder involving the type of weapon these guys purchased the next day. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-shooting/112634121/police-seize-gun-collectors-firearms-in-over-the-top-raid

       At least one of them had been mouthing off online about Muslims, the attack's target.

       The way NZ police behaved here was standard worldwide procedure, including armed police being posted everywhere. I have no sympathy for these guys whining about their hurt feelings.
       • James 2.2.1.1

         11 May 2019 at 1:00 pm

         ”At least one of them had been mouthing off online about Muslims, the attack's target”

         there is is no mention of that in the link at all. What’s this guy done that deserved a raid like that ?????
         • Sacha 2.2.1.1.1

           11 May 2019 at 1:05 pm

           You're right. I'm confusing it with a different story. Leaves the other factor I've already mentioned.
       • James 2.2.1.2

         11 May 2019 at 1:05 pm

         And bollocks to it being standard procedure- police don’t raid people who have purchased firearms legally without a reason – and they have provided none in this case.
         • Sacha 2.2.1.2.1

           11 May 2019 at 1:06 pm

           It is standard procedure after a terrorist attack. Don't be so wilfully dim.
     • joe90 2.2.2

       11 May 2019 at 12:32 pm

       Well, the plods do tend to turn up armed to the teeth when they visit people possessing firearms, legally or otherwise.
       • Pingau 2.2.2.1

         11 May 2019 at 4:07 pm

         Plus there was a high terror alert.
   • Jenny - How to get there? 2.3

     11 May 2019 at 7:03 pm

     I have heard mutterings from inside the gun owning fraternity that they know of friends who are buying plastic piping and sealing their automatic weapons in them before burying them in the garden.

     I think that the police should carry metal detectors on every such raid and check out the yard.
3. Andre 3

   11 May 2019 at 9:05 am

   Some interesting thoughts on how and why building more just law-enforcement systems should get more emphasis in aid to developing countries.

   https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/05/how-to-fix-poverty-gary-haugen-ijm.html?via=homepage_taps_top
   • Adrian Thornton 3.1

     11 May 2019 at 10:37 am

     Man that Slate piece you linked to is one of the most racist things I have read in a long time..holy shit.

     " In Peru, he recalls, a doctor reported seeing 50 cases of rape in the preceding five days. All the victims were less than 15 years old."

     Yet according to Nation Master you are 17% more lightly to be raped in the USA than Peru, in fact it shows that the risk from nearly all crime is higher in the US than Peru

     https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Peru/United-States/Crime.

     Love this little gem….

     " The abuse of state power turned out to be a human problem, not a colonial one."

     Colonialist invade a poor country, completely destroy and disrupt centuries of structure and life for the inhabitants, they eventually get kicked out. and suddenly everything is meant to just go back to how it was before colonization?..seriously, I mean I am no academic, but even I understand that the deep damage caused to these formally colonized societies lays squarely at the feet of their former oppressors.
     • Andre 3.1.1

       11 May 2019 at 10:59 am

       Uhh, you have any idea of the difference between recorded crime and actual crime is in places with really corrupt authorities? Particularly for a deeply personal crime such as rape, where attempting to pursue justice is much much more likely to result in further victimisation and humiliation than any kind of punishment for the perpetrator?

       In your rush to find something to whine about and make yourself feel morally superior, you seem to have totally missed the point of the article. Which is to look at ways to improve things for people living in fucked up parts of the world.
       • Adrian Thornton 3.1.1.1

         11 May 2019 at 11:27 am

         Well of course we all want " to look at ways to improve things for people living in fucked up parts of the world." how that is done and under what context and by whom is also incredibly important, all I was saying is that I found the piece to be extremely condescending to the people of those poor counties, and it's lack of historical context was disturbing.

         BTW Andre, When I read statements like…' You can’t just do good. You have to grapple with evil', I of course get instantly suspicious…so I was in no ' rush to find something to whine about and make yourself feel morally superior" so go get fucked with your ad hominem attacks (as you and your pals always fall quickly back to). maybe you should just try displaying a little more critical thinking.
         • SPC 3.1.1.1.1

           11 May 2019 at 1:54 pm

           I would have thought the same problem, patriarchal power structure existed in the first world and in the pre colonial "third world". And that, as a result of colonialism one can add institutional racism. Those dealing with both in the first world can bring that knowledge to the third world in their foreign aid programmes.

           I am fairly sure the UN Development agency does.
       • Siobhan 3.1.1.2

         11 May 2019 at 2:30 pm

         I wish these assurances were true. They aren’t. Tests do show an IQ deficit, not just for Africans relative to Europeans, but for Europeans relative to Asians. Economic and cultural theories have failed to explain most of the pattern, and there’s strong preliminary evidence that part of it is genetic. It’s time to prepare for the possibility that equality of intelligence, in the sense of racial averages on tests, will turn out not to be true.

         William Salatan…racist. Or maybe just lazy and attention grabbing. Or maybe all 3.

         https://slate.com/technology/2007/11/liberal-creationism.html
         https://slate.com/culture/2007/12/a-response-to-liberal-creationism.html

         https://web.archive.org/web/20071203013749/http://cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/weblog/546.html
         • Andre 3.1.1.2.1

           11 May 2019 at 2:48 pm

           In your rush to whine about the person whose name is on the byline, did you miss the actual content of the piece? And that the piece was almost entirely just a summary of content originally produced by Gary Haugen, with a bit of additional info about Haugen and the organisation he heads?
           • Adrian Thornton 3.1.1.2.1.1

             11 May 2019 at 3:23 pm

             No actually the piece you linked to has the heading and then 'By WILLIAM SALETAN' (Their caps) so it isn't a byline.

             Don't you think it is about time you grow up and stop your incessant whining and whinging every time some one points to all the holes in the shit you put up.
             • Andre …

               11 May 2019 at 3:41 pm

               When you and Siobhan stop responding to just about everything with a diversionary whine that's unrelated to the content of the comment you're responding to, I'll stop telling you what you're doing is diversionary whining.
               • Adrian Thornton …

                 11 May 2019 at 4:58 pm

                 Firstly my initial comment WAS about the content of your link, and as far as I can see so was Siobhan’s. so don’t know what your are talking about there.,,just whinging for the sake of it I guess.

                 Secondly, maybe I will stop critiquing you when you stop putting up links that are dodgy and making comments that I don't agree with, but until then I will comment how ever I see fit, as is the nature of open political forums in case you hadn't noticed

                 You don't see me getting all sad and defensive on it like you when people constantly critique my links and comments (which they do)…maybe you need to harden up a bit.

                 So in short, if you can only understand being critiqued as whining then that is your problem not mine.
           • Siobhan 3.1.1.2.1.2

             11 May 2019 at 3:52 pm

             "Some liberals don’t like to hear this message. They’re uncomfortable with the language of power, punishment, deterrence, and force. They prefer to talk about amnesty, rehabilitation, or demilitarization"

             Like this, most of the article is

             By WILLIAM SALETAN

             As for Haegen, I'm sure the guy means well, but I try and stay well clear of Evangelicals. too problematic.

             .
             • Andre …

               11 May 2019 at 4:18 pm

               Congratulations on finding one of the very few bits of the piece that's Saletan's content, not a summary of Haugen's views.

               Now, do you think you can actually take the very brave step of actually considering Haugen's views about how the lack of a fair justice system is a significant part of continuing poverty? And that concentrating more aid efforts into improving justice systems might have better results than current aid efforts?

               Or is it just too big a mental obstacle for you to overcome, purely because he's an evangelical, that someone might actually have developed worthwhile observations from his work helping the impoverished ?
     • joe90 3.1.2

       11 May 2019 at 5:24 pm

       Yet according to Nation Master

       An estimated 60% of Peruvian mothers aged between 12 and16 years old become pregnant as a result of rape. And your reaction to anecdotal reports of appalling levels of sexual violence is but America!.

       FFS.
       • Adrian Thornton 3.1.2.1

         11 May 2019 at 5:45 pm

         @joe90, Look all I was trying to say was that the piece that was linked to initially seemed to me to be quite racist in tone, just because someone wants to help in poor third world countries doesn't mean they don't have all kinds of hooks and personal agendas that go along with that 'help’,so when I read this … ' You can’t just do good. You have to grapple with evil' and this 'The abuse of state power turned out to be a human problem, not a colonial one.' in that piece, and then looked up the author who turned out to be involved in some racist controversies, well my alarm bells started ringing…wouldn't yours?
4. Andre 4

   11 May 2019 at 9:10 am

   Random morning thought: there should be a word for that really discomfiting feeling you get when someone that's nuttier than pecan pie actually agrees with you.

   The Germans probably already have one. Sabine, can you help?
   • Gabby 4.1

     11 May 2019 at 9:28 am

     Pfennigfallen dredre.
     • greywarshark 4.1.1

       11 May 2019 at 9:42 am

       That's a really cool definition Gabby and as always leads to the need for further elucidation. For the benefit of very uncool people like me here is an Urban Dictionary's definition of Dre (the others were so packed with sex-loaded foul-mouthed expletives I passed them by).

       dre

       an adjective used to describe anything that is cool and/or dope beyond comprehension. Applicable only to those individuals with the highest levels of swag. Derivative of the popular rapper name Dre and thus is most commonly used as an expression by members of hip hop culture. However, it is sometimes used by a select few individuals who wish they had swag…

       Boy 1: bruh, did you see them new Nike Blasers?
       Boy 2: you know i did foo, i aint neva seen shoes so dre.
       #cool#dope#awesome#boss#prime
       by camster82 May 15, 2011
       • Gabby 4.1.1.1

         11 May 2019 at 4:08 pm

         The pfennig must have lodged somewhere on the way down greysy.
   • Ad 4.2

     11 May 2019 at 9:55 am

     Don't they call it The Standard?
   • Incognito 4.3

     11 May 2019 at 4:32 pm

     Bumboozled
     • Andre 4.3.1

       11 May 2019 at 4:39 pm

       Maybe. Works for most of the sensation. Bit it doesn't quite convey that additional little hint of feeling maybe your own views need an urgent re-examining, tho.
       • Incognito 4.3.1.1

         11 May 2019 at 4:48 pm

         Introprobation
         • Andre 4.3.1.1.1

           11 May 2019 at 4:50 pm

           Yeah!
           • Incognito 4.3.1.1.1.1

             11 May 2019 at 4:52 pm

             Phew
   • joe90 4.4

     11 May 2019 at 4:41 pm

     Discombobulated
     • Andre 4.4.1

       11 May 2019 at 4:45 pm

       Too broad. What I'm talking about is a very specific subset of discombobulated.
5. Pat 5

   11 May 2019 at 9:28 am

   The scale of procrastination is increasingly evident…

   "Emission budgets will be set for five-year periods once we are past 2025 and up to 2035 these will be all set by December 31st, 2021. In setting the targets consideration must be given as to how these targets may be realistically met plus another range of “cover all options” clauses.

   If a budget period achieves greater savings than budgeted these can be carried forward into the next period and if a budgeted period falls short of budgeted emissions government may drag back up to 1% (borrow) from the following period."

   https://www.interest.co.nz/rural-news/99610/legal-degree-may-become-necessary-skill-farmers-feel-good-politicians-and

   So it appears meaningful climate action has been deferred until post the next election
   • Jenny - How to get there? 5.1

     11 May 2019 at 10:25 am

     “So it appears meaningful climate action has been deferred until post the next election”

     Even further than that….

     As there is no concrete plan on how to meet these targets….

     It is all very well having a target, but without a concrete plan to work towards it, it is meaningless.

     I could have a target to be a millionaire in 5 years.

     I could even say that I will need to get $200,000 per year to reach my target.

     I have a target, I am almost there.

     The same with the Zero Carbon Bill, lots of targets lots of deadlines, Zero actual policy on how to meet them.

     Meanwhile in the real world, business as usual continues, huge area of Taranaki opened up for oil and gas exploration. Huge coal mine expansion in Huntly Rotowaro open cast. More motorway expansion. Business as usual in all spheres
     • Pat 5.1.1

       11 May 2019 at 10:56 am

       the cognitive dissonance within the coalition is something to behold….how the Greens cope with this humourless farce I cannot fathom.
     • SPC 5.1.2

       11 May 2019 at 2:09 pm

       The purposes of the targets is to require those contesting elections and forming coalition governments to have plans to meet the said targets – though we have yet to see National buy in to confirm it.

       The targets themselves are in accord with the OECD international consensus – sans outliers such as Oz and USA and Canada.
       • Pat 5.1.2.1

         11 May 2019 at 3:50 pm

         the stated purpose of the Bill is to confine to 1.5 degC of warming (but definitely less than 2) as per the Paris accord……and this admin is going to further waste this 3 year term and part of the next (should they get another) before any practical policy is enacted…..on current projections 1.5 will have already been exceeded by then.

         This lot could teach the EU a thing or two about can kicking on that performance
6. greywarshark 6

   11 May 2019 at 9:58 am

   Future thinking. Past thinking. Just thinking and trying and being a bit entrepreneurial and not putting it off till many of us thinking oldies will be dead. (How are we all planning for the environmentally appropriate way to be laid to rest?)

   I thought of Futuro houses – alien looking double saucered homes on stilts.

   I see from Nelson Mail paper that a guy has been sourcing some of these in NZ. Apparently only 100 were made in the 1970's (worldwide?) then the oil crisis, so rare. Nick McQuoid brought one from Northland to Christchurch in 2012 and later sold it to Museum in Tasmania for $280,000!

   His latest is at Ohoka, Christchurch, and was a whitebait shelter in South Westland.

   Futuro houses were conceived by Matti Suuronen in Finland in 1968 to be used as "portable" ski chalets. The insulated fibreglass structures were designed so the interior could heat up in just 20 minutes.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/homed/houses/112505522/canterbury-entrepreneur-tackles-weird-and-wonderful-restoration-project
   • Cinny 6.1

     11 May 2019 at 10:49 am

     Grey, about a month ago I saw a lil truck towing a house on a trailer in Thorp St, was super impressed.

     It looked like a tall prefab cottage, but what buzzed me out was the vehicle towing it, was one of those landcrusier style trucks, the ones many kiwi's own. It was so cool to watch. They backed it down their drive way and voila, instant house. Must have been lightweight to be able to be moved by such an average vehicle.

     Those chalets, awesome, I think there is one at the wreckers on the left driving into Mot next to a phonebox with an alien in it….hmmmm…. going to the tip today, will double check if it is, I wonder if they've seen the article, that would be worth stopping in and sharing with them, might just do that…..thanks for sharing Grey, very cool.
   • Rosemary McDonald 6.2

     11 May 2019 at 11:09 am

     http://www.breezepod.com/
7. greywarshark 7

   11 May 2019 at 10:05 am

   Newest news from Radionz:

   Displaced people in the world 41 million!! Extreme weather displaces more people than conflicts and violence. Norway has a group keeping track.

   (Me: Scandinavia for the modern UN! Time for a change of place, practice, hegemony, away from hedgemoney!)

   Fog in Auckland stopping ferry sailings and international departures. (This is NZ idea of what displaced people are! We have to up our thinking, I think.)
8. Jenny - How to get there? 8

   11 May 2019 at 10:41 am

   How To Get There 5/5/19

   Greed has overcome both good sense and decency, as the government opens a up huge area for oil and gas exploration on land violently seized from Maori by Colonial authorities

   TE AO MĀORI ENVIRONMENT

   5 May 2019

   Māori disappointed ancestral land up for tender for oil and gas drilling in Taranaki

   Leigh-Marama McLachlan, Māori Correspondent

   @leighmarama leigh-marama.mclachlan@rnz.co.nz

   Iwi in Taranaki are upset the government has put their ancestral land up for oil and gas drilling…..

   ……Former Green Party candidate for Te Tai Hauāuru, Jack McDonald, is gutted with the offer, which covers his own tribal lands.

   “It is a slap in the face that this so-called progressive government, which is meant to be taking a new approach to climate change and a new approach to Māori-Crown relations, would actually continue with this approach.”
9. Jenny - How to get there? 9

   11 May 2019 at 10:55 am

   

   Greed has overcome both good sense and decency, as the government opens a up huge area for oil and gas exploration on land violently seized from Maori by Colonial authorities

   TE AO MĀORI ENVIRONMENT

   5 May 2019

   Māori disappointed ancestral land up for tender for oil and gas drilling in Taranaki

   Leigh-Marama McLachlan, Māori Correspondent

   @leighmarama leigh-marama.mclachlan@rnz.co.nz

   Iwi in Taranaki are upset the government has put their ancestral land up for oil and gas drilling…..

   ……Former Green Party candidate for Te Tai Hauāuru, Jack McDonald, is gutted with the offer, which covers his own tribal lands.

   “It is a slap in the face that this so-called progressive government, which is meant to be taking a new approach to climate change and a new approach to Māori-Crown relations, would actually continue with this approach.”
   • Jenny - How to get there? 9.1

     11 May 2019 at 12:23 pm

     Why consensus stinks

     https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/apr/20/our-leaders-are-ignoring-global-warming-to-the-point-of-criminal-negligence-its-unforgivable

     Unforgiveable

     ….The problem – and it’s an existential threat both profound and perverse – is that those who lead us and have power over our shared destiny are ignoring global warming to the point of criminal negligence. Worse than that, their policies, language, patronal obligations and acts of bad faith are poisoning us, training citizens to accept the prospect of inexorable loss, unstoppable chaos, certain doom. Business as usual is robbing people of hope, white-anting the promise of change. That’s not just delinquent, it’s unforgivable…..

     The Australian term white-anting comes from the action of termites that hollow out and empty something that looks fine on the surface.

     The Zero Carbon Bill is an example of white-anting stopping any real action on climate change, looking substantial, but completely hollowed out of any real action.

     The argument made for the Zero Carbon Bill by its supporters, is that we have to seek 'Consensus' with the National Party, otherwise when they get back into power they will repeal any concrete legislation we put in place.

     As well as being a defeatist position, the evidence for for this argument is actually extremely weak.

     The Nats never repealed the Nuclear Free Legislation. Labour have never repealed the Anadarko Amendment. Phil Goff traveled the Country in a big red bus with "Kill The Bill" (the National Government Bill to increase GST to 15%) before admitting that if he was elected he wouldn't repeal it.

     Consensus is not democracy it is an attack on democracy.

     As Winston Churchill famously said, Democracy is the worst of all possible systems, except for all those others that have been tried.

     Democracy has been described by its detractors as the dictatorship of the majority over the minority.

     This is the sound of ideologies crashing, sang Billy Bragg

     Consensus is an effort to paper over these differences between ideologies.

     And it fits into one of those worst ways Churchill spoke of.

     Consensus is not democracy. Consensus is going for the lowest possible denominator to achieve unanimity.

     In effect Consensus is an effort to silence and stifle political debate. To suffocate the sound of ideologies clashing.

     The tragedy of Consensus politics is that it robs the electorate of making a clear choice between one way forward and another. Consensus politics prevents us hearing the arguments between both ways forward, and for making an informed decision with our vote.

     Consensus politics murders democracy in back room deals between politicians.

     What consensus politics displays, is a lack of faith in the people.

     Consensus politics is a cowardly abrogation of leadership.

     Instead of appeasing the National Party politicians what our leaders should do instead is enact the legislation that their conscience and the science demands, and then openly defy the opposition to repeal it if they dare.

     This is what is called leadership.
     • Sacha 9.1.1

       11 May 2019 at 12:40 pm

       "Consensus politics prevents us hearing the arguments between both ways forward"

       Black/white thinking is a bigger problem than consensus decision-making ever will be.
       • Jenny - How to get there? 9.1.1.1

         11 May 2019 at 1:05 pm

         “Black/white thinking is a bigger problem than consensus decision-making ever will be.” Sacha

         Or are you like the oil and coal companies, scared of the possibility that you may, one day, have to submit to the dictatorship of the majority?

         Democracy has its faults, but its better, as Churchill said than all those others that have been tried and that includes the so called the consensus style of politics.

         Personally I think that many people are heartily sick of consensus between the two major political parties.

         Which delivers no choice, and which sees many turn away from even voting, finding it hard to determine any difference between them.
         • Sacha 9.1.1.1.1

           11 May 2019 at 1:07 pm

           Democracy can include consensus.
           • Jenny - How to get there? 9.1.1.1.1.1

             11 May 2019 at 2:17 pm

             Really?

             Maybe you would like to enlarge on that comment Solkta?

             In there is a difference of opinion between two parties, (or people), there can be only three possible outcomes. Either one side is right, or the other side is right, or both sides are wrong.

             Where is the ground for consensus if both sides disagree?
     • SPC 9.1.2

       11 May 2019 at 2:34 pm

       An international consensus – a co-ordinated effort – is required to deal with a global issue. Whether global social media regulation against incitement/promotion/glorification of violence, money laundering, tax havens, taxation of international cartels, extradition agreements, war crimes, 200 mile economic zones, freedom of the sea, diplomatic immunity, free trade rules (WTO), and global environment concerns.

       And where there is an international consensus as to national targets – nations formulate how they meet their obligations. This will include national plans – which can include an internal consensus within which parties contest elections and form coalition agreements. The recent proposal would need to be agreed to by National to become one.

       As to being more ambitious than the international community programme, being a fast follower rather than a prevaricator is progress for now. The only way to be effective is by

       1. taking the resistance (aka National) along with you.

       2. convincing the international community to be bolder.
10. cleangreen 10

    11 May 2019 at 1:34 pm

    Subjects; The way forward' /consensus /climate change/well being/ – all in one here folks

    11/5/19

    Our HB/Gisborne community is still awaiting the Labour coalition promises made to us all in 2016 in the Gisborne Herald.

    Three parties all now in Labour coalition had promised restoration of our rail services that the National Government has allowed to become partly washed out in 2012 by a lack of funding for rail maintenance to keep the infrastructure free of damages from any storms.

    This service was already under community restoration as industry was wanting more freight services then in 2011 when in december the HBRC had evidence that more freight was wanted to be carried on Gisborne rail in a press release 21st December 2011 entitled “At risk rail can’t cope”.

    (links are all provided below"

    We are claiming our right to have our rail services restored by this new Labour Coalition Government under the new “well being budget policy .

    https://www.labour.org.nz/wellbeingbudget

    This promise will see Government reducing carbon emissions and increasing infrastructure under two of the ‘five priorities’ using – Boosting Innovation, & Creating Opportunities .

    QUOTE; “Alongside GDP, we will measure ourselves against five key priorities that will make real improvements to the lives of New Zealanders. We’ve used evidence to identify the five areas we can make the greatest difference. Boosting Innovation, Creating Opportunities, Backing Māori & Pasifika, Supporting Mental Health, Improving Child Wellbeing.

    Please Government give us in HB/Gisborne back our Gissbone Rail as you are doing already in most other provinces, such as Wairarapa, Tananaki, Canterbury, Otago, Westland, Waikato and Northland. – So we await your response in the new GPS called "wellbeing budget" https://www.labour.org.nz/wellbeingbudget

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/…/PA1302/S00183/kiwirail-admits-lack-of-maintenance-led-to-wash-out.htm

    http://gisborneherald.co.nz/localnews/2535803-135/three-parties-say-fix-rail

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/6170590/At-risk-rail-line-can-t-cope-with-demand
    • patricia bremner 10.1

      11 May 2019 at 4:37 pm

      Cleangreen did you hear Winston today? A big boost for Rail in the budget.
11. Jenny - How to get there? 11

    11 May 2019 at 2:08 pm

    Zero carbon bill – let the battle commence

    WrittenBy: MICKYSAVAGE – Date published:8:21 am, May 9th, 2019 – 100 comments

    Yesterday I made brief comment on Micky's post, that I hoped that the National Party continue to oppose the Zero Carbon Bill so as to give the voters at least some chance to decide.

    To which Solkta replied:

    solkta13.1

    10 May 2019 at 7:38 am

    I just think you like your "war" too much. What if National oppose the Bill and win the election?

    In my opinion, any party that fought an election campaign against the scientific evidence of climate change and the need to act against it, would be in for the political drubbing of their life.

    The evidence is that strong.

    The tragedy is that the current consensus strategy will prevent that debate ever being held.
    • SPC 11.1

      11 May 2019 at 2:43 pm

      The coalition's approach is to

      1. propose legislation and see if National oppose it

      2. if National do, win in 2020 and force them to reconsider their position.

      3. post 2020 gain consensus around the plan.

      4. compete in subsequent elections with policies and coalition agreements that specify implementaiton arrangements.

      5. within the framework that this plan is in accord with existing international agreements which can be made more progressive should there be consensus around this.
    • Wayne 11.2

      11 May 2019 at 4:58 pm

      I think it is most likely that National will vote for the Zero Carbon Bill. If certain goals prove too difficult down the track, say the reduction in methane by 2030, adjustments can be made.

      After all, it it is highly unlikely Labour will still be the govt then!
      • Stuart Munro. 11.2.1

        11 May 2019 at 5:57 pm

        Certainly not if they keep odious company like the Gnats.
      • Chris 11.2.2

        11 May 2019 at 10:49 pm

        That's not like you to be so open about how the nats decide policy. You must've had had a few wines, and was only 5 o'clock.
12. Chris 12

    11 May 2019 at 3:08 pm

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/112321733/chinese-water-giant-nongfu-spring-had-a-rocky-road-to-setting-up-in-new-zealand

    More national government filth revealed.
    • greywarshark 12.1

      11 May 2019 at 5:11 pm

      See also at #16.
    • CHCoff 12.2

      11 May 2019 at 7:09 pm

      The too good to be true back door wheeling and dealing arrangements are inherently unstable and readily detrimental, as the National Party involvement shows.
13. greywarshark 13

    11 May 2019 at 3:13 pm

    Why we should never considering privatising our health industry and abandon Pharmac. A small inroad by some private companies providing services for the wealthy, and some limited crossover, but very limited interaction.

    Specialists in infectious disease are protesting a gigantic overnight increase in the price of a 62-year-old drug that is the standard of care for treating a life-threatening parasitic infection.

    The drug, called Daraprim, was acquired in August by Turing Pharmaceuticals, a start-up run by a former hedge fund manager. Turing immediately raised the price to $750 a tablet from $13.50, bringing the annual cost of treatment for some patients to hundreds of thousands of dollars.

    Sept 20, 2015

    https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/business/a-huge-overnight-increase-in-a-drugs-price-raises-protests.html
    • Andre 13.1

      11 May 2019 at 3:36 pm

      That's more an artefact of the way the FDA won't recognise approvals from other countries. Daraprim's generic name is pyrimethamine and it's widely available around the world as a generic for about $1 a dose. But the US market for it is small enough it wasn't worth it for any other company to go through the rigmarole of bringing in a generic.

      A thornier problem is simply the unpredictability of private health care costs. Which leads to horrifying stuff like parents with kids that have done something that really does need any emergency room visit, but the risk of a ruinous bill is so high they'll wait with the kid outside in the carpark and hope the kid pulls through so they don't have to go in.

      https://www.vox.com/health-care/2019/5/10/18526696/health-care-costs-er-emergency-room
      • greywarshark 13.1.1

        11 May 2019 at 5:07 pm

        How far the USA has declined or flat-lined. In the 1860s in Semmelweiss' time in Vienna, pregnant mums might hire a horse-drawn cab to circle the hospital to see how they went with the birth because of the high death rate for mothers at the hospital. It was a last resort.

        When Semmelweiss carried out a handwashing experiment on young trainee doctors who had been handling cadavers before viewing the birthing mothers, he reduced that death rate. But his methods didn't suit the PTB and they discontinued the practice. The knowledge of those avoidable deaths practically drove him mad and to his death.

        What a disgrace that the United States is as low as the 1800s in its unconcern for its citizens. I'll mention Joan Brady here. She wrote a novel Death Comes for Peter Pan based on a paper she had written about defects in the medical services in one of the States. She couldn't get her work published. So she wrote it up as 'faction' .

        Review Good Reads by Steve:

        High 4. This is a devastating portrait of the iniquities of the medical system in the US. When Alice Wexler is told her husband is dying and that no medical treatment can prevent this outcome, they return to their American homeland. What follows is a tale of her passionate crusade to attain a more promising diagnosis, but as Alice's hopes of her country providing a second chance become shattered`in the face of the harsh realities of the Medicare system, her struggle becomes one of fighting for her husband's right to a dignified end. As she witnesses her husband's deterioration her self-reflection rveals hidden aspects of their relationship, and as any meaningful contact with her partner becomes more and more remote, we are witness to her growing emotional attachment to the one person who provides support. The author cuts through with scalpel-precision the layers of bureaucratic hypocrisy to reveal a health care system where poorly trained staff ensure passivity of patients through over-medication, and where those in such a vagetative state are regarded by those who manage the system, as mere 'product' to keep the coffers full. In the epilogue, Joan Brady reveals that she faced her own such struggle when she returned with her terminally-ill husband to the US. The questions she raises over the allocation of funds and the impersonal operation of the US health-care system, and the call for more discussion of 'mercy killings' contained within its pages brought condemnation across the pond, but this is a wonderful novel which deftly exposes social injustice.

        Amsterdam audio – Joan Brady second half of audio on her book Death Comes for Peter Pan.

        (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS-I-hfiIEM

        and – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis
14. cleangreen 14

    11 May 2019 at 3:51 pm

    Use of rail will reduce over use of truck freight emissions.

    http://gisborneherald.co.nz/localnews/4077328-135/prime-time-to-expand

    May 11, 2019
    gisborneherald.co.nz
    Prime time to expand
    by Andrew AshtonPublished: May 11, 2019 11:58AM

    Report says container port, restoration of rail can boost growth
    A Deloitte report says investing in rail could be more commercially viable if Eastland Port had container port facilities.

    The lack of a container port in Gisborne is costing the region $36 million a year and potentially hindering the return of the Gisborne to Wairoa rail line, a report from a top finance firm says.

    The second edition of Deloitte’s Shaping Our Slice of Heaven report, entitled Regions of Opportunity, assesses the economic impact of increasing exports in tourism, agribusiness, food processing and advanced manufacturing from Auckland, Waikato, Hawke’s Bay/Gisborne, Wellington and Canterbury from 2019 to 2040.

    The report says Gisborne is in a prime position to take advantage of growth industries and highlights the expansion of Eastland Port and the restoration of rail as aspects that can boost the region further.

    “Gisborne needs increased connectivity to flourish,” the report states.
    “While the Wairoa-Napier rail line has been reopened and road upgrades between Wairoa and Gisborne have been promised, extending the operating rail line up to Gisborne would increase trade efficiency going south from Gisborne.
15. Morrissey 15

    11 May 2019 at 3:55 pm

    The infamous District Judge Michael Snow in his pomp

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kyos-M48B8U

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/apr/11/assange-branded-a-narcissist-by-judge-who-found-him-guilty
16. Rosemary McDonald 16

    11 May 2019 at 4:03 pm

    Whakatane residents are supplied 'E' grade water…the lowest of the low…while New Zealand Government officials woo wealthy investors to a local spring so the investor can potentially bottle 580 million litres of pure, clear water per year.

    The runanga has previously said it has concerns about the health of the Awaiti aquifer, from which the water would be drawn, and the consent regime: "At every turn, Te Rūnanga o Ngāti Awa has had to advocate for transparency and accountability by local and central government, namely making the consent hearing public, and the participation of hapū, iwi and community in decisions that affect us."

    Whether the legal challenges succeed or fail, the focus on Nongfu Spring has highlighted the ease with which overseas company can access vast quantities of water for little to no cost.

    In this case, consent to bottle and export 580m litres of water would cost the company around $2000 a year, the price of a resource consent monitoring fee.

    Seriously beggars belief that we're still protesting this shit. If we only consider the plastic used to bottle 580 million litres of water per year then we have a strong indicator that those promoting this madness have not been listening.

    That the NZ government is behind this is bordering on treason.

    Talk about mitigating climate change and cleaning up our water ways and reducing plastic use….all bullshit.
    • greywarshark 16.1

      11 May 2019 at 4:35 pm

      This is just a fiction made up by malcontents??? Tell me the truth – this isn't really happening right? I think I need another cup of tea, it's enough to drive you to drink. But not pure water. Can someone explain why this is allowed to happen. Is it just no backbone? Is it being left up to local Councils to decide? Is it that central government can't put a stop to treating an essential resource for everything being mined? It would be right to stop it now. And try to claw back what has already been signed up to, even if it costs big money.

      Does this come under the CPPPTPA etc? Have we the citizens got no come-back to this dreadful, stupid bit of 'trade’? @$%$&$ *** 👿 😈 😡 😥
      • Rosemary McDonald 16.1.1

        11 May 2019 at 5:18 pm

        Does this come under the CPPPTPA etc?

        Which this Current Mob broke land speed records to sign…with the ink barely dry on the Coalition Agreement.

        Or the China (F?)TA…which the Previous Labour Government tripped over their feet to sign?

        Treason. Traitors.
17. joe90 17

    11 May 2019 at 4:38 pm

    heh

    https://twitter.com/euro268/status/1126959569559855104

    Here's @afneil interviewing @benshapiro on #politicslive– this is the full, unedited version. It is not Fox News or an unmediated YouTube video but a tough interrogation. https://t.co/9hn6MtdSJx

    — Rob Burley (@RobBurl) May 10, 2019
    • Puckish Rogue 17.1

      11 May 2019 at 5:52 pm

      I'll have to wait until I get home to watch this (unfortunately) I'm a bit of a Ben Shapiro fan boy

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXb4h6cXvX4
      • Morrissey 17.1.1

        11 May 2019 at 6:20 pm

        (unfortunately) I'm a bit of a Ben Shapiro fan boy….

        That truly is unfortunate. He's one of the truly wicked opinion-vomiters, and unlike, say, Donald Trump, he lacks even a smattering of rudimentary charm.

        Why would you call yourself a "fan boy" of that chump?
        • Puckish Rogue 17.1.1.1

          11 May 2019 at 6:34 pm

          Facts don't care about your feelings
    • Adrian Thornton 17.2

      11 May 2019 at 6:54 pm

      Actually, and I really hate to say this, but Shapiro didn't do to badly really, he batted off Neil's questions mostly pretty well, Neil seemed to base the whole interview on just a string of lazy gotcha questions.

      Most of the blogs and you tube channels I follow are framing this as a huge fail and an embarrassment for Shapiro, and when you watched their edited clips it sure looks like it, but when you take the time and watch the whole thing, it reads quite differently I think.
      It is so easy to believe things when they align with your own ideology, but truth matters. if you start believing your own bullshit you end up losing elections like the Dems in 2016.
      • joe90 17.2.1

        11 May 2019 at 7:25 pm

        Shapiro couldn't cope when the interviewer ignored his babbling and demanded he answer the question. He folded and took his ball home.
        • Adrian Thornton 17.2.1.1

          11 May 2019 at 8:41 pm

          Yeah he definitely lost his shit in the end, but in a way I can kind of see why, Neil didn't seem interested in having a discussion with him, he only seemed interested in cornering him with one of his single fire questions, which is a very lazy way to expose Shapiro for the arsehole that he is, in my opinion Neil didn't do a good job in this interview.
18. joe90 18

    11 May 2019 at 5:35 pm

    Wag the Dog. When all else fails, start a war

    After Trump invite, Iran commander says: No talks with US https://t.co/MkC4ROEIsM

    — Zeke Miller (@ZekeJMiller) May 10, 2019
19. cleangreen 19

    11 May 2019 at 6:06 pm

    Today another truck fire in the city caught fire and burnt completely out surrounded by residential traffic in the close proximity of homes.

    We need ‘US style’ ‘ring road’ heavy truck routes around our NZ cities not through the middle of them like this?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_road Ring road – From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    For other uses, see Ring Road (disambiguation). "Beltway" redirects here. For the term used in American politics, see Inside the Beltway. "Periférico" redirects here. For Mexico City's beltway, see Anillo Periférico.

    The inner ring road of Sheffield, England

    A ring road (also known as beltline, beltway, circumferential (high)way, loop or orbital) is a road or a series of connected roads encircling a town, city, or country.

    The most common purpose of a ring road is to assist in reducing traffic volumes in the urban centre, such as by offering an alternate route around the city for drivers who do not need to stop in the city core.

    Wake up useless NZTA!!!!
    • McFlock 19.1

      11 May 2019 at 6:59 pm

      Dunedin just needs a bypass. I was actually in an exam years ago when a slinky (lamb carcass) truck on a hot day exploded its load all down the middle of town. The stench was insane (apparently they'd filled the truck fine, but the swellage on a hot day caused overflow).

      Most of the double-trailers passing through are going nowhere close to the inner hills areas. There are a couple of trans-shipping depots in southD, lots of logging trucks crunch roads up to Port Chalmers, but the stock trucks are going straight through.
      • Puckish Rogue 19.1.1

        11 May 2019 at 7:31 pm

        I think you mean just need to bypass Dunedin 🙂
        • McFlock 19.1.1.1

          11 May 2019 at 7:43 pm

          Depends entirely on who wants to avoid who 🙂
20. A 20

    11 May 2019 at 6:23 pm

    Dangers of 5G – Mark Steele interview notes regarding a claim weapons expert Mark Steele marks that autonomous vehicles are never going to be a reality because of the amount of microwave radiation they emit. What's impossible is having 20-50 of them all together.

    BMW did a study that showed autonomous cars interfered with pacemakers. 13:25. Nobody has warned of the danger looking at these cars with binoculars or telescopes – if the laser from the autonomous car catches the sight it will put your eye out
    • Andre 20.1

      11 May 2019 at 6:41 pm

      Get your protection products here:

      http://www.lessemf.com/personal.html
    • Drowsy M. Kram 20.2

      11 May 2019 at 11:09 pm

      But we need 5G – self-driving flying cars are coming (in 5 years, apparently) – how ‘cool’.

      That will keep the shareholders happy, going forward…
21. The Chairman 21

    11 May 2019 at 6:31 pm

    Cancer snuck up on me. Now I deserve to die peacefully

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/euthanasia-debate/112559499/cancer-snuck-up-on-me-now-i-deserve-to-die-peacefully
22. The Chairman 22

    11 May 2019 at 6:44 pm

    It is often touted the Greens need more votes to implement change.

    But would it really make a difference?

    They still won't have king maker leverage.

    They've shown they'd prefer to be in the tent than out. So no leverage there.

    Thus, they would still be the smaller partner of Labour that prefers not to rock the boat.
    • Muttonbird 22.1

      11 May 2019 at 7:01 pm

      The Greens are not ugly centrists like NZF so they are unlikely to ever be king-makers. Unlike NZF, king-making is not what drives the Greens. Environmental and social concerns drive the Greens.
      • The Chairman 22.1.1

        11 May 2019 at 7:12 pm

        Yes. And seeing as they've got little from Labour and been forced to swallow a few dead rats, surely it wouldn't take much for National to try and entice them over?

        They would only have to offer a little more than Labour has allowed them which hasn't been much. And with going with National, there is less chance of Winston getting in the way.
        • Puckish Rogue 22.1.1.1

          11 May 2019 at 7:27 pm

          Personally speaking I'd rather deal with any party before I'd deal with Winston. I get the feeling that National, Labour, the Greens, Maori Party and Act all want to achieve something but Winston only wants whats best for Winston

          The sooner he's gone the better
          • The Chairman 22.1.1.1.1

            11 May 2019 at 7:37 pm

            He has his benefits and his experience will be a great loss.
            • Puckish Rogue 22.1.1.1.1.1

              11 May 2019 at 7:44 pm

              He has his perks and his experience will not be missed
              • The Chairman …

                11 May 2019 at 8:22 pm

                No one packs a hall like Winston, so I say he will be missed.
                • Sacha …

                  11 May 2019 at 8:42 pm

                  By greying lamington-seekers, sure.
                  • Drowsy M. Kram …

                    11 May 2019 at 11:13 pm

                    Greying lamington-seekers are voters too, and motivated voters at that!
        • Muttonbird 22.1.1.2

          11 May 2019 at 7:49 pm

          I don't know if you've been paying attention but the Greens will not and can not 'go with' National because their political ideologies run counter to each other.

          It's not going to happen.

          Mind you, NZF and the Greens might be closer on policy in some areas than is generally acknowledged. Given your hatred of rail (which is weird for a self-pronounced far left activist) the idea that Winston Peters is driving a big boost for rail will leave you stinging I’m sure.

          https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/112648672/deputy-pm-winston-peters-signals-budget-boost-for-railways
          • The Chairman 22.1.1.2.1

            11 May 2019 at 8:21 pm

            I wasn't advocating they go with National, just pointing out it wouldn't take much for National to out offer Labour.

            I fully support trains. My comment in that other thread was merely a reference to the timetable (one each way a day) which is vastly insufficient.

            And yes, NZF and the Greens are closer on policy in some areas than is generally acknowledged.
            • McFlock 22.1.1.2.1.1

              11 May 2019 at 8:49 pm

              I wasn't advocating they go with National, just pointing out it wouldn't take much for National to out offer Labour.

              Just a complete reversal of their policies and an alienation of their corporate and rural support.
              • The Chairman …

                11 May 2019 at 9:02 pm

                When stacked up against what Labour has offered them, the reversal and alienation would be minimal, manageable, thus survivable if it was required to secure them power.
                • Sacha …

                  11 May 2019 at 9:10 pm

                  Yep, more mining, dirty dairying and big highways would be just what Green voters were seeking. You're a genius!
                  • The Chairman …

                    11 May 2019 at 9:12 pm

                    Labour haven't offered much less in that respect. There is still more mining, dirty dairying and big highways.
                    • Sacha …

                      11 May 2019 at 9:17 pm

                      Remove Winston from the equation and we'll see about that.
                    • Muttonbird …

                      11 May 2019 at 9:23 pm

                      Did you miss where the government scrapped new oil exploration and introduced methane targets and refocussed big highway funding to clean public transport?

                      Remembering you yourself advocate for big highways I'm not surprised you have overlooked these developments.
                    • The Chairman …

                      11 May 2019 at 9:35 pm

                      @Muttonbird

                      Did you miss how Labour has fallen short on most of that, hence they aren't that apart from National when one looks deeper than the soundbites.

                      And we will still require highways going forward for environmentally friendly vehicles.
                    • Muttonbird …

                      11 May 2019 at 9:38 pm

                      No Mate, that's what they government has actually done. Things National would have the guts for.
                • McFlock …

                  11 May 2019 at 9:14 pm

                  No, on the part of National.

                  You think nats would support the climate change stuff, even as it is? Not to mention the fact that the entire Nat philosophy is based on exploitation rather than conservation: environment, resources, people…

                  Even without the social policy aspect to the Greens (because holistic attitudes cannot be restricted to one narrowly defined area, by definition), it's not a case of concessions on individual policies buying cooperation. Everybody has to be on the same broad page on most of everything else that comes up, and generally treat each other with respect. That's what would require a complete change in the nats for them to realistically have the Greens as an option.

                  This should be pretty basic stuff to any Green voter.
                  • Muttonbird …

                    11 May 2019 at 9:25 pm

                    The Chairman is an ACT voter.
                    • The Chairman …

                      11 May 2019 at 9:36 pm

                      Hell no!
                    • Muttonbird …

                      11 May 2019 at 9:39 pm

                      Everything comment you make suggests so I'm afraid.
                    • The Chairman …

                      11 May 2019 at 9:48 pm

                      No.
                    • mauī …

                      12 May 2019 at 1:17 pm

                      or Chairman of "Sustainable New Zealand"
                  • The Chairman …

                    11 May 2019 at 9:32 pm

                    You think nats would support the climate change stuff, even as it is?

                    They most likely will with methane further reduced And as it has no teeth, it won't really be such a big one to swallow. Despite the current noise.

                    National can act respectably and professionally when required And have worked with the Greens before.
                    • marty mars …

                      11 May 2019 at 9:42 pm

                      lol rubbish – you're just another wanker sending the kids to hell cos you can't be bothered changing your cushy lifestyle. You are a gnat supporter.
                    • McFlock …

                      11 May 2019 at 9:43 pm

                      Not for confidence and supply. Especially come budget time.
                • Incognito …

                  11 May 2019 at 9:30 pm

                  As the the great politician M.E. Atloaf once said “I’d do anything for power, but I won’t do that!”.
                  • Sacha …

                    11 May 2019 at 9:56 pm

                    Yep, Greens would be like a bat out o hell.
              • greywarshark …

                11 May 2019 at 10:49 pm

                I feel there is a rap base here. Alienation, exploration, exploitation, equation, conservation, commendation – chacha.
        • mauī 22.1.1.3

          12 May 2019 at 1:14 pm

          Well, well well, here is Mr Green the party activist toying with the idea of a Nat-Green coalition. Never saw that one coming lol.
23. joe90 23

    11 May 2019 at 7:37 pm

    Thread.

    I’ve been researching female agency in anticolonial resistance and it’s an extremely interesting subject… I’ll be publishing on this in due course but can’t help sharing some pics here… (ongoing thread) #anticolonial #resistance #femaleagency #empire

    — Paddy Docherty (@paddydocherty) April 23, 2019

    https://tttthreads.com/thread/1120756675210817538.html
24. marty mars 24

    11 May 2019 at 10:08 pm

    RIP Pua

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/112648625/pua-magasiva-found-dead
    • greywarshark 24.1

      11 May 2019 at 10:43 pm

      Only 38. We need to look after our creatives. RIP.
25. greywarshark 25

    11 May 2019 at 10:41 pm

    Here is a guy who should get a good Parkour workout and training. Then make some sculpture of his own that goes outside on public display for our critical judgment, which we are all very good at it in NZ. That will teach him some skills, some planning, some discipline, some understanding of materials, some mentoring, the ability to see a thought from start to finish and outcome. And how vulnerable we all are to others' respect for ourselves and our works.

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/384071/man-who-broke-wellington-s-len-lye-sculpture-sentenced-to-community-work
26. joe90 26

    12 May 2019 at 12:13 am

    Watched Chernobyl.

    Fuck.
27. Eco Maori 27

    12 May 2019 at 9:18 am

    Kia ora R&R.

    I think the tridition on single marriage is westernised. Marriage is a
    very important to the old Maori thats where te Mokopuna are going to come from.

    I don't think that the high devorce rate in NZ is good for anyone but lawyers.

    I say that people who are going to marry should look HARD at there potential partners to make sure they are compatible as there are a lot of players out there.

    I would not use a dating website.

    Ka kite ano P.S chose your partners wisely
28. Eco Maori 28

    12 May 2019 at 11:56 am

    Kia ora R&R on Maori Tv.

    I just a few years ago I new all my neighbours the way of the west goal is to individualised the common tangata easer to use there blind/fool people if they are ALONE. For tangata whenua we have to work together to make a better future for te Mokopuna.

    Moden living has to change back to the hapu /familys cooperationing in all aspects of life the Marae way of living is way of the future we will use less resources and that is going to be beneficial for our future shear the tools shareing is caring if we learn that respect is a big thing that needs to be promoted.

    I get pissed at accounts who say it better to rent than buy a house.

    A whare is the Whanau moanga it gives the Whanau security no one can tell you to leave with out good cause it will help with financial security once you have good equity you can lend money with low interest rates you can use your equity to help the tamariki and Mokopuna get there own house.

    I agree with Marama if one is paying rent WHY can't the government and the banks lend money to buy A whare the rent has to be paid or your under the bridge. Rents are higher than a mortgage in a lot of places. Figure that one out.

    Ka kite ano
29. Eco Maori 29

    12 May 2019 at 12:22 pm

    I Back the call for IWI leaders to declare Human Caused Climate change a national emergency in Aotearoa as in my view on our REALITY it is.

    Iwi leaders say New Zealand should declare an environment and climate emergency, as the British parliament did last week Ka kite ano links below

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/te-manu-korihi/388691/we-have-to-react-with-speed-iwi-leaders-on-climate-change
30. Eco Maori 30

    12 May 2019 at 1:32 pm

    Some Eco Maori Music for the minute.
31. Eco Maori 31

    12 May 2019 at 1:43 pm

    All the tangata of Papatuanukue need to put huge pressure on all the Papatuanukue ruling class to force them to protect OUR Mokopuna futures first and formost.

    Hague climate change judgement could inspire a global civil movement

    Dutch ruling could trigger similar cases worldwide with citizens taking their governments to courts to make them act on climate promises Ka kite ano links below.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/jun/24/hague-climate-change-judgement-could-inspire-a-global-civil-movement
32. Eco Maori 32

    12 May 2019 at 6:28 pm

    Kia ora Newshub.

    Social media needs to have boundaries set to stop the haters using it to cause harm to others verbally and physically but let's not compromise free speach in the reaction.

    Parlm kernel fire the stuff can self combust if not stored correctly.

    Its good that more money for the homeless people to be housed,

    Well national has a policy that I will back 2 days more care after our Wahine give birth to Te Mokopuna I think it's a real good policy te Wahine go thru a enormous amount of stress giveing birth to our tamariki it is quite easy for them to slip into depression.

    I say that IWIs paying for health insurance for there tangata whenua is on to it yes the crown should be paying for it but we can not Rely on the government this will keep the kaumatua around longer to guide our Mokopuna up there ladders of Life.

    Ka kite ano
33. Eco Maori 33

    12 May 2019 at 6:52 pm

    Kia ora Te ao Maori News.

    I miss it last night Sir Heke Busby passed he will be missed dearly.

    I see that the United nations Antonio is in Aotearoa promoting Papatuanukue PEACE Ka pai and championing the mitigatetion against climate change we must respect our future and past tipuna.

    The poor common people need help its cool more funding is coming from our government for tangata whenua as we are the majority in those stats of homeless. Kia ora to the Black Ferns Ka kite ano
34. Eco Maori 34

    13 May 2019 at 8:52 am

    Kia ora The AM Show.

    Chris you do a good job in Auckland caring for OUR homeless tangata.

    The Ausse election in on hope you are wrong Jason the Papatuanukue can not afford to have the same government in power that is prow coal.

    It is awesome that the protesting the lack of action against climate change around the Papatuanukue is still going strong.

    Paul I agree with your words I say no more.

    I say white supremacist are a bit of a problem in NZ I see there actions all the time.?

    My diet is no additional sugar in prosessed food and a little hear and there and porridge rolled oats gets the digest system working it fulls you up easy as to I notice with te Mokopuna good feed of porridge and toast keeps them happy for 3 hours any other food 2 hours it a super food.

    The white supremacist problem if you ignore a sore eventually it gets that big it burst.

    Your mother day prize for that Wahine who lost her loved one's recently is cool she will be happy Wahine are the unsung Hero's of OUR society.

    You should see how my WiFi and laptop get hacked so easily so be careful about the new technology you put in your whare if your privacy matters to you.

    Ka kite ano
35. Eco Maori 35

    13 May 2019 at 12:07 pm

    Now is the time to buy second hand electric car. I say our government should be investing in the technology of refurbishment of the battery's of the second hand car market or they will have to quickly try and clean up a mess that is easily foreseeable heaps of dead batterys and cars if the manufacturer won't back their secondhand car the government has to mabe legerslate but NZ is to small to have a impact at that level. Its a no brainer to chase a phenomenon that will sharply reduce our carbon footprint and can save the country billion at the same time a smart investment I say. I know heavy industries need fuel like gas or hydrogen but I say working smarter not harder is what little AOTEAROA has to do to keep up with the phase of change and get the best returns from the changes. The technology can be sold to other that are interested. There are many more poor people in the Papatuanukue than wealthy so the market for refurbishment of batteries is huge Ka kite ano links below.
36. Eco Maori 36

    13 May 2019 at 1:54 pm

    Some Eco Maori Music for the minute.
37. Eco Maori 37

    13 May 2019 at 3:20 pm

    Equality for all is needed Wahine are treated the less equal of OUR society. Wahine from 3 world countries have it very hard they do most of the heavy lifting in the mahi of providing for there familys. The men get most of any money they get and some waster it. Eco Maori backs Tau toko this micro financing for Wahine.

    Gender inequality is a global problem, but it is especially amplified when it comes to the financial opportunities presented to men and women. While there has been a significant improvement in gender equality since women were first allowed to vote,statistically, women are underrepresented in most financial positions: form borrowers to lenders, not to mention regulatory bodies or high-standing positions in banking institutions.

    Micro-financing for female borrowers

    Micro-financing platforms like AssetStream will allow women with lower social status and lack of work or credit history to start borrowing small sums of money, to jumpstart their finances or even start their own small business Ka kite ano links below

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cryptopolitan.com/implications-of-greater-gender-equality-through-microfinance/amp/
38. Eco Maori 38

    13 May 2019 at 4:59 pm

    We don't have to invent the wheel to fix our environment. Papatuanukue has already achieved this we just have to find the creature to will help in clearing up the mess and nerture them use mother nature creations to help clean up mess we have made with our Environment. I Back the kicks principles keep it smart and simple.

    The big, beautiful Baltic Sea hides a dirty secret in its 377,000km of water.

    A number of agricultural spills has turned the Baltic into one of the most polluted seas in the world, due to excess nitrogen and phosphorus lacing its waters.

    This process of eutrophicationhas led to the depletion of oxygen and an overgrowth of algae in the body of water, but not all hope is lost Ka kite ano link below

    https://www.euronews.com/2019/05/09/pollution-fighting-mussels
39. Eco Maori 39

    13 May 2019 at 6:31 pm

    Kia ora Newshub.

    I say that the gumman would have had others helping him he was just the minupulate puppet.

    I say it's dumb Fonterra selling Tip Top you know how to win monuply not selling ASSETS.??????.

    What's the point of a study on unreported unproven crime it will be similar everywhere

    Drones delivery orgain/kidneys is a sign of the Times technology is cool in the correct HANDS.

    Ka kite ano
40. Eco Maori 40

    13 May 2019 at 6:54 pm

    Kia ora Te ao Maori News.

    Sir Heke will have a huge tangi

    Its cool that the people who can't hear have Maori sign te reo language I will find the time in the near future to master te reo.

    The side of the road drug test on the roads would be fine with Eco Maori in a perfect Papatuanukue but from all the data and stories I can see. Tangata whenua will end up with the short end of that STICK.

    Its awesome that school fees will be dropped and focused on education Alot of intelligent tamariki would fail or not set the test because of the fees being un payed.

    Ma te wa

    Antonio the tangata whenua of the Pacific Islands need help in combining climate change.

    Its cool that the United nations is Tau toko indigenous culture te reo /language.

    I would not be a happy MAN if that happens to my Mokopuna.

    Ka kite ano

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