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Open mike 11/09/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, September 11th, 2019 - 188 comments
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Open mike is your post.

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The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

188 comments on “Open mike 11/09/2019 ”

  1. The Labour party sexual assault allegations story is growing in strength as more information comes out.

    The Spinoff have published Timeline: Everything we know about the Labour staffer misconduct inquiry

    Jacinda Ardern has declared herself “deeply concerned and incredibly frustrated” over the allegations levelled at a Labour staffer as well as the party investigation into the man, who remains employed by the Labour leader’s office and denies wrongdoing.

    The party president says he is “confident I have handled the process in a professional manner”.

    The prime minister says she had been assured that no complainant alleged sexual assault or violence. She says the first she learned of the nature of the allegations that Sarah (a pseudonym) insists she raised repeatedly with the Labour Party, was upon reading the Spinoff’s investigation published on Monday.

    A crucial question is whether the Labour Party’s position, that it was not informed of the allegations, is tenable. Just as important is whether its process – for example in repeatedly failing to meet complainants’ requests to review the summaries of their oral evidence – is defensible.

    They then detail "an incomplete chronology, based on public statements and numerous documents provided to The Spinoff".

    They include authentication of the open letter to the prime Minister that emerged yesterday:

    An “open letter to the prime minister” is circulated within the party by “Me Too Labour”, an unnamed “group of Labour Party members who are writing to you to urge you to immediately take action regarding the allegations” surrounding the staffer. It makes a series of demands including the resignation of Haworth. The letter, which The Spinoff has verified originates from party members, had by lunchtime attracted more than 100 signatures.

    Claims of a false flag or a conspiracy by National don't stack up.

    Stuff: Complaints about Labour Party staffer taken to his employer

    Two of the complainants in an investigation into assault, bullying and harassment by a Labour Party staffer have taken their concerns directly to the man's employer.

    The man, who Stuff cannot name for legal reasons, works in the Labour Leader's Office, but is a public servant employed by Parliamentary Service.

    A 19-year-old woman, who alleges sexual assault, and a young man, who has accused the staffer of throwing a punch at him, wrote to Parliamentary Service boss Rafael Gonzalez-Montero on Tuesday.

    But Gonzelez-Montero says his hands are tied because the accusations do not relate to the man's employment. Neither of the complainants work at Parliament.

    That seems an odd avoidance of any responsibility. It is affecting his employment.

    The man has not been stood down. But he agreed to work from home after allegations surfaced about his conduct in early August.

    And Ardern's credibility is looking at risk.

    HDPA (Newstalk ZB): We must question PM's honesty over Labour sexual assault allegations:

    This is what we want to ask her: When did she know that the allegations against a staffer in her office were of an alleged sex crime?

    She told media yesterday: ”I was informed in the very beginning that the allegations made were not sexual.”

    She told RNZ this morning that she found out yesterday.

    “The first I’ve seen the complaints of that nature was when I read then." Asked when that was, she said "When I saw them in the Spinoff.”

    That is very hard to believe. This has been reported in the media for the last five weeks.

    If you believe that yesterday was the first the Prime Minister heard of this, then you must believe that the Prime Minister of this country does not watch, read or listen to the news reported in this country.

    That she for the last five weeks has missed every bulletin, newspaper and programme that mentioned the fact this guy is alleged to have committed a sexual crime.

    Like this on Newshub: “The Labour Party has been forced to review its own investigation into bullying, sexual harassment and sexual assault by a Labour staffer.”

    Or this: “Two more of the seven people who laid complaints about bullying, sexual harassment and assault by a Labour staffer have told Newshub about their experience of the department’s internal investigation.”

    You have to also believe that the Prime Minister didn’t ask what allegation was so serious that a staffer in her office stopped coming to work five weeks ago.

    You also have to square it with this comment she made yesterday in her press conference”:

    “A month ago I visited New Zealand [Labour Party] Council. Very seriously shared my view that they were not the appropriate place to undertake inquiries around concerning behaviour of members of the Labour Party. But particularly they are not the appropriate place to ever undertake an investigation into a sexual assault. And that would be their view too.”

    Why would she say to the Labour Party council that they were not the right people to investigate an alleged sex crime, if she didn’t know the allegations were of a sex crime?

    Because she did. She did know.

    On the 6th of August, one day after the story broke in the media, Mike Hosking raised it with her right here on this station.

    He asked her: "How many people have quit your party as a result of this investigation into this bloke who may or may not have sexual assaulted someone?"

    Her response was: “I’m going to be very careful answering that question Mike because this is an inquiry and work is still underway and it is still a party matter.”

    Exactly when the Prime Minister knew is important for a bunch of reasons.

    Did she fail in her duty of care to staffers and volunteers? Was this supposed to be covered up? But mostly it’s important because this is now about her integrity

    It’s becoming increasingly hard to believe her version of events, and possibly this is the first time that we’ve had reason to question Jacinda Ardern’s honesty.

    This is not just Ardern's honesty and credibility at stake. Labour's chances in the next election may be severely compromised by this.

    It has been claimed that the man facing the allegations is seen by Labour as an important part of their campaign team. He may be more toxic than helpful. It's hard to understand why Ardern can't see this.

    In an interview on RNZ's Checkpoint yesterday a man who claims to be the victim of an attempted physical assault and a physical assault indicated the accused man had family connections to the Labour Party.

    Protecting him looks increasingly untenable.

    [lprent: I’d suggest that you be careful about claiming authentication of that ‘open letter’ here. I read that article and I simply don’t believe it. Apparently nor do many others – 100 people adding to it doesn’t exactly sound like a landslide.

    To me it reads exactly like a fake false flag operation. And I never appreciate false news or outright lies being promulgated here. ]

    • Sacha 1.1

      Also another article by Alex Casey detailing further evidence she has seen establishing what Labour was told about the nature of the assault: https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/11-09-2019/fresh-evidence-emerges-confirming-labour-was-told-of-sexual-assault-allegations-on-june-11/

      [lprent: That isn’t ‘evidence’. That is statement about seeing a email that is alleged to have been sent. It is simply an allegation and has no evidential authority at all of actually arriving.

      And somehow you didn’t refer to this in the same article.

      The Labour Party has told The Spinoff that no attachments were received by the investigation chair, and that no one involved in the investigation was aware that any of the people appearing before them was alleging sexual assault.

      That places this claim as being a hearsay allegation. If you want to continue commenting here, could you please refrain from making shit up?

      The title of that article should be a the subject of a media complaint if anyone can be bothered. ]

      • Sacha 1.1.1

        And the investigating panel is a subset of these people (scroll down page): https://www.labour.org.nz/party_info

        Members of NZ Council

        President: Nigel Haworth
        Senior Vice President: Tracey McLellan
        Maori Senior Vice President: Tane Phillips
        Women's Vice President: Fleur Fitzsimons
        Affiliates Vice President: Chris Flatt
        Pacific Island Vice President: Jerome Mika
        Youth Vice President: Kaitlyn White
        Policy Council Representative: Rachel Boyack
        Rainbow Representative: Paul Stevens
        Te Kaunihera Maori Representatives: Honey Heemi and Rudy Taylor
        General Secretary: Andre Anderson
        Parliamentary Leader: Rt Hon Jacinda Ardern MP
        Parliamentary Deputy Leader: Hon Kelvin Davis MP
        Caucus Secretary: Jan Tinetti MP
        Auckland/Northland Representatives: Antonia Verstappen, Simon Mitchell and Jesse Thompson
        Waikato/Bay of Plenty Representative: Rosina Taueki
        Central North Island Representative: Alan McKenzie
        Wellington Representative: Paul Tolich
        Northern South Island Representative: Keir Leslie
        Otago/Southland Representative: Michael Wilson

        • lprent


          The only sanction that these people could to is to remove whoever it is as a party member.
          They can’t make a complaint to the police.
          They can’t even remove them as a parliamentary employee.

          Exactly how is that going to help? It sounds like a completely useless gesture.

          Could you please explain why this is relevant?

          • Sacha

            As an outsider, trying to establish who was involved in the process – and particularly which people inside the party were allegedly made aware of the nature of the allegations.

            That list was news to me. From what you say, Haworth still seems most appropriate to be carrying the can for the party's performance of the process.

            And I am not talking about the justice process (which as you say could include police and parliamentary services), just the political one. Who needs anyone to offer the opposition such an easy stick to beat the govt with?

            • lprent

              FYI: The presidential role inside the Labour party is

              1. Not a paid position. The secretary is the operational head. The presidential role is mostly about fund raising and keeping factions from each others throats.
              2. Not a HR position. You’d have to look to the secretary for that.
              3. Not operational at all. The Labour party head office at Fraser House is usually something like about 5 people and some volunteers. Run by the secretary. It doesn’t sound like they had anything to do with any of the reported occassions (hard to tell – the journalists appear to brain dead when looking at lines of responsibility)
              4. Not operational at all even inside the NZ Council. The secretary operates that as well

              None of what is alleged seems to have had much to do with the Labour party. My biggest complaint about Nigel’s involvement was that he got involved at all. It isn’t part of his role.

              If a formal complaint was made to the NZ Council, then the most that they could do would be to sanction someone by excluding them from occasions that they organise and removing their membership.

              There isn’t anything hard about understanding that. It is exactly the same as every other organisation.

          • weka

            re the open letter, what would be a reasonable standard of verification? The Spinoff aren't going to reveal sources, but I thought their statement about verification was too light given what is involved. I'd probably be satisfied with a better explanation from them, but I don't know the technicals of how someone would prove to them ownership of a google doc like that.

        • Sacha

          RNZ Checkpoint has identified the 3 members of the panel as Tracey McLellan, Honey Heemi, and Simon Mitchell (who Heemi told RNZ took the official notes 'because he is a lawyer'). Heemi interview is interesting.

          Audio will be here eventually: https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/20190910

      • lprent 1.1.2

        Ah no. That isn’t ‘evidence’. That is a set of allegations and copy of something that could have been sent.

        If you think that is evidence , then I’d have to say that I think you are an idiot.

        • Rapunzel

          When it comes to such complaints as you mention above about "headlines" is a headline not being sufficiently accurate or reflective or different from the main content enough?

          I have often been tempted but an experience with a complaint to Magic Radio reduced my confidence in that action. While the agreed the statement was "incorrect" they maintained it was not, in their opinion" something that the public would have either "noticed" or would have influenced their opinion. By then I was a bit over it after waiting for a response, I think it may be something that should be followed up on and complaints made especially if the media are going to be such a major influence on "opinion" for next year's election.

          • xanthe

            The use of headlines that contradict or mislead the content is a big bugbear of mine also ! The Hearsay is high on my list of media outlets that engage in this practise

            • Rapunzel

              Perhaps it is something to make the time to pursue, I had one on the weekend that caused me to cancel a subscription – and say why – but more should be done than that, time for me to make the effort.

        • sumsuch

          You have all the fight of Labour, Lprent. From a disgustant since 1984. The Left without ideals is nothing. I spotted it then. Yissee, I'm old and am prepared to play the long game for our Country.

      • Sacha 1.1.3

        somehow you didn’t refer to this in the same article

        I did not 'refer' to anything beyond the headline. Sensitive much.

    • They include authentication of the open letter to the prime Minister that emerged yesterday:

      If so, the people who posted it could seriously do with some lessons on how to post stuff on the web so that it doesn't look like a personal-data-gathering exercise by unknown agents. Having seen the thing, I wouldn't submit personal info to it regardless of what the Spinoff says.

      • Sanctuary 1.2.1

        Oh God, we are going to get a few weeks of hysterical outrage from the beltway and partisan hacks about this.

        It is the perfect imbrication of the tangential tribal politics of the liberal elites and oppositional hysteria.

        The National party and it's cheerleaders in the media are desperate to weaponise this to try and damage the PM. For them, they want to use this as a stick to beat the PM with forever and forever and forever and forever and forever ad nuseum.

        The MSM press gallery and opinionistas have got an issue they can now endlessly (and cheaply) interview their keyboards about without the need to question the bubble the live in and without fear of contradiction by any sort of collision with the reality of the lives of 99% of the population.

        The twitterati of the Grey Lynn 500 who are obsessed with identity and sexual politics have found the next thing to be hysterical about forever. Pity the occupiers of Ihumatao, for Alison Mau has now got something far, far more interesting to be outraged about. For these people, no apology is good enough and accusation counts as irrefutable evidence.

        Meanwhile, the rest of us just get on with paying the bills and worrying about the economy and wondering why Simon Bridges is such an idiot.

        • Sanctuary

          The thing is, it isn't that i am not interested in issues of people lives. But I am more interested in (for example) the accusations of systemic bullying in the police force, or the economic radicalism of Corbynism as it realites to the lives of workers.Why? Because in the first case the police are well funded and professional organisation that has systemic issues that solving can lead to major improvements for lots and lots of people. The second because the potential material benefits to the working poor and precariat are huge – and that is what i am interested in – radical politics, not the ravings of over-privileged liberals.

          Political parties are largely run by an assorted collection of the community minded, mild eccentrics, tribal loyalists, political chancers, true believers and party apparatchiks all of whom are mostly under appreciated, undertrained and seldom paid well or at all. How these often dyfunctional organisations – which are, after all, committed to a greater or lesser extent to the democratic process – run themselves is of course of interest. The issue of whether or not our funding laws are fit for purpose is an important story. But not story, or at least not to this level of sanctimony, inappropriate outage and sheer nonsense.

          • AB

            Our media is populated by a materially comfortable middle class for whom all structural questions with the economy or society are already solved . When issues arise they must therefore be attributable to bad behavior or incompetence at the individual level. So they love this sort of sh*t.

            • Rapunzel

              It crossed my mind how many of those pursuing this with a zest that has not been seen with the National Party internal inquiry are dependent on these "stories", so many the details are now a bit of a blur, for their income and to maintain, create or increase their public profile.

      • weka 1.2.3

        I find the format of that open letter very odd and likewise wouldn't 'sign' it*. It's possible that it's fake, but it's also possible that it was done by survivors and others who just don't have a good sense of how to do something like that, technically or socially.

        *in part because it reminds me of Labour early on who used such online forms around social justice or political issues but also used them to harvest emails. I doubt that is what is happening here but it's unfortunately still a badly done action. This makes me tend to think the form is genuine and comes from Labour people.

        The other thing I don't like about the form is that it puts the people 'signing' in a position of being blind to what is going on. They don't know what happens to the information when they click submit, and there is *no way to know if it is genuine or fake or nefarious.

        I've seen these kind of forms used on social media for other kinds of justice actions and they're problematic in that they're a system of disempowerment not empowerment, and that's really not a good move given what is going on. The people who set it up probably have a high need for anonymity, which is understandable, but this isn't the way to manage that.

    • vto 1.3

      Listening to the RNZ interview last evening, it was all very smelly… didn't trust the interviewee… don't trust the party hierarchy…

      best you lot keep this within the confines of party politics – nothing turns voters off quicker

    • Wayne 1.4


      You have zero proof that it is a false flag operation. Just your belief that it could be.

      Pete George is entitled to rely on it for what it purports to be. The burden of proof is upon you to prove otherwise.

      • marty mars 1.4.1

        wise words from Marc that applies across the board to ex politicians imo

        "You never get a politician on a show like that. Because they believe they are the voice of reason, but in actual fact, there's no streetwise politician, they've just had people fluffing them continuously," he said.


      • lprent 1.4.2

        You have zero proof that it is a false flag operation. Just your belief that it could be.

        Just as you and PG have zero proof that it isn’t.

        As far as I am concerned, if he wants to rely on it here for extravagant claims that it represented a widespread trend inside Labour, then he needs to provide more supporting evidence than a statement by a journalist that some of the 100 people who have signed it are in fact Labour members. Not exactly an expert source.

        There are a lot of Labour members. Some have been members for decades. Some have been members for a week. I am one myself for decades. FFS the journo making the claim that it is legit doesn’t even deign to say why they were sure? Did they see a card like the one in my wallet? Or was it just someone saying that they were?

        I think that it is most likely to be a false flag operation. So far I haven’t seen ANY evidence that it is or that it isn’t. I have seen evidence that if I wanted to set up a false flag operation is is exactly what I would have done, and exactly what like I seen in the past by dangerous fools like Ben Guerin.

        And of course the way the law operates is that an allegation or hearsay doesn’t constitute evidence except on the balance of probabilities basis. In my judgement, the balance of probabilities is that it is probably a false flag operation. So I’m treating it as being one until evidence is provided that it isn’t. Just as I do for any otehr unsustantiated bulklshit that comes off the net.

        • Wayne


          Well, as you say "In my judgement, the balance of probabilities is that it is probably a false flag operations".

          It seems to me that you are mixing up two things here, "burden of proof" and "standard of proof".

          Burden of proof requires the person making the allegation to adduce some evidence to support their claim.You have produced none, it is just "in my judgement". Standard of proof is the level of proof that the evidence has to clear. Hence "balance of probabilities" mean evidence that is more likely than not to be true. But you have produced no evidence at all, just your view of the matter.

          I would have thought if you are saying something is false on the balance of probability you have to adduce at least some evidence of that. You have admitted it is "in my judgement", but that is not evidence of any sort at all.

          By the way hearsay can be admitted as evidence, at least in civil cases, it just may not have that much weight.

          • Wayne

            Iprent, weka, PM

            I would also note the article in the The Spinoff by Toby Manhire on the timeline has this statement, "The letter, which The Spinoff has verified originates from party members…".

            I am certain the The Standard authors and commenters would know that when a reputable journalist makes such an emphatic statement (has verified) about something then it will be true.

            The Spinoff staff have clearly done enough research on the open letter that they absolutely know it originated from Labour Party members. They will have probably interviewed the originators of the letter and have seen membership cards, or alternatively they know enough about the people who originated the letter to know they are Labour Party members.

            • mac1

              Wayne, I would hope so, that a reputable journalist etc.

              But I have been fulminating here about supposedly reputable journalists who don't meet the criterion of journalist in that their writing is loose, inexact and badly edited. I have criticised Hoskings, du Plessis-Allan and Rob Stock within the past week for that.

              It is therefore very important to exactly know upon what basis a journalist makes a statement that something is verified. After all it was once verifiable that the earth is flat.

              Even you say the Spinoff staff 'probably' acted properly, within reasonable expectations. The thing is we don't know, and it could all be assumptions or hearsay.

              It also depends on the English being used as well. The word 'evidence' by itself does not mean that the material is true. It's just evidence, material put forward to justify a case being proposed. It can be true or false.

              But most English users assume it means incontrovertible evidence only, not debatable, factually wrong, misinterpreted or misapplied. Therefore it was journalistically dubious to use the word 'evidence' in the headline "Fresh evidence emerges confirming Labour was told of sexual assault allegations on June 11". The misuse of the word by a journalist or editor is compunded by the word 'confirmed'. There is no idea of allegation or of possible error. It is 'confirmed'. Judge, Jury, Guilty as Charged in one headline.

              That came from the Spinoff as well, written by' reputable' 'journalist' Alex Casey.


              • Climaction

                Cath Casey’s daughter? Hardly a foot soldier in the VRWC that seems be promulgated here.

                More like a believer in the effect metoo and sunlight has in reducing Rape culture that appears to be endemic in the halls of power in this country

                • mac1

                  climaction, address the issue, why don't you? I don't care whose daughter she is. She is addressing as you say an important issue of power and proper conduct.

                  She should be using, ot her editor, whoever wrote the headline, English accurately.

                  Not as a foot soldier. As a journalist.

                • Climaction

                  maybe they have irrefutable evidence and they aren’t publishing it yet to get comment on it from labour and to protect their sources?

              • Wensleydale

                Criticising Mike Hosking is largely a waste of time. Everyone knows what Hosking's about, and it's never been journalism.

                • mac1

                  Maybe though the 'reputable' journalists might up their game if they are lumped in with the like of Hoskings.

            • lprent

              That isn’t a verification – that is an assertion. If they’d explained how they verified…

              They will have probably interviewed the originators of the letter and have seen membership cards, or alternatively they know enough about the people who originated the letter to know they are Labour Party members.

              See – even you are unsure how they “verified”. You’re having to resort to mere supposition.

              I know for a fact where “has verified” has been used by a “reputable journalist” where the verification was just asking for verbal confirmation. I’m sure that we all have. It is like the way that the media also trot out people to comment on the internal workings of Labour who I know haven’t been members or involved for decades, or never have been members or involved.

              Forgive my cynicism – but I’m afraid that statement by Toby Manhire is just meaningless waffle. As far as I am concerned if he’d said something like he’d seen the membership cards or he has known that they were Labour members for a decade – but he didn’t eh? And would have been so easy to say that. That tells me the level of veracity he is using.

            • mac1

              I've just read this in a paper. " (name) revealed he will be retiring as principal at the end of December. The move comes in the wake of a challenging few months at the (name) college after allegations of sexual abuse involving a teacher".

              The principal involved has reached retirement age. He has good reasons to be retiring.

              But the phrase "in the wake of' means that there is a consequential component to the resignation. It means more than a simple time sequence.

              That was another 'reputable journalist' in paragraph three spreading an allegation which was not at all addressed in the rest of the article. In this case, it was the editor who wrote the article.

              There is an Autralian journalist who every time when referring to union leaders calls them a union 'boss' but a leader of a conservative party is propeerly called a 'leader'.

              Reputable journalism?

          • lprent

            It seems to me that you are mixing up two things here, “burden of proof” and “standard of proof”.
            Burden of proof requires the person making the allegation to adduce some evidence to support their claim.

            What I am saying is that I see absolutely no evidence that a suspicious object on the net is what it says that it is. Therefore it should be treated as being internet garbage – which is the default action that everyone should always take (and usually do).

            If you believe that a anonymous page on the net making claims should be believed, then I will find you some that you should press links on to see how you get along with them. After all by your argument – you can’t determine that they are dangerous until after you have tried them.

            However the reporter and PG are making a claim. They are saying that it is a legitimate object. However they are offering no evidence to support their claim. Nor do they appear to have a lot of expertise at making that judgement. To me that makes them unreliable.

            By the way hearsay can be admitted as evidence, at least in civil cases, it just may not have that much weight.

            Yeah I know. I simply don’t find that their hearsay evidence to support that claim is compelling.

            To put it mildly, I am the resident expert on political bullshit on the net around here after watching it for more than a decade. I am also the person in the gun if we have false claims coming out of the comments. So I’m afraid my opinion is the one that counts. This one smells to my internet nose to be exactly like a previous false flag with a little more sophistication on the concealment side. So I treat it exactly the same way. Since the dirty politics fuckwit in my previous post has gone on to be a professional dirty politics fuckwit… I guess my nose keeps proving to be accurate. I’ll trust it.

            Arguing about it doesn’t help. All it does is irritate me and waste my time.

            Perhaps finding something that convinces me that it worth the risk of having PG make claims that I’m liable for would be a better use of your time than trying to dance on the head of a pin.

            • weka

              that post, christ. I'm guessing he didn't put that on his CV. Or maybe he did, and they've shipped him off to London to hone his skills.

      • Psycho Milt 1.4.3

        Wayne: for your own good – if you encounter a web form asking you to enter your personal information and you can see that the owner of the form is effectively anonymous and doesn't tell you what will be done with your information, you would be unwise to assume you can rely on it for what it purports to be. That way lies identity theft or worse.

        • Chris T

          Would imagine they wouldn't have clicked on the link to the random form if they didn't trust the person who sent them it.

          There seems to be some seriously desperate looking "fending off" going on here in the last couple of days given the seriousness of the accusations, which is at odds with the rhetoric that comes from Labour supporters, when these cases come up any other time

    • mac1 1.5

      Further very unclear thinking from HDPA as reported by Pete George above at #1.

      "On the 6th of August, one day after the story broke in the media, Mike Hosking raised it with her right here on this station.

      He asked her: "How many people have quit your party as a result of this investigation into this bloke who may or may not have sexual assaulted someone?"

      Her response was: “I’m going to be very careful answering that question Mike because this is an inquiry and work is still underway and it is still a party matter.”

      Now what does that actually prove? Is it meant to be further proof that Arderne knew of the sexual nature of the allegations? The question from Hosking referred to numbers of members resigning.

      I cannot understand the point that HDPA is trying to make here.

      Very unclear, and what this issue needs is clarity, not lazy writing and mischief-making.

      • Wensleydale 1.5.1

        That's Heather's attempt to go "See?! Look! Labour did… some stuff, and it was bad stuff! Very bad! Naughty Labour! Let's see if we can fling muck about in the vain hope some of it will stick to the PM! She's like the Oracle of Delphi, that Jacinda! She knows all! But she won't admit it! Oh no! Tricksy. Like a hobbit. Dirty Labour!"

        It's hysterical flailing. Actually, it's transparent hysterical flailing. Now that Nigel Haworth's ritually disemboweled himself, can we all move on?

    • xanthe 1.6

      "That she for the last five weeks has missed every bulletin, newspaper and programme that mentioned the fact this guy is alleged to have committed a sexual crime."

      An alternative scenario is that the PM does not act on media headlines but rather established facts.

      I cannot imagine that either HDPA or hoskins are on the PM's list for providers of facts. they certainly are not on mine

      • mac1 1.6.1

        +1 xanthe. Add Pete George to that list.

        I'd like to ask Hoskings, " "How many people have quit listening to your show as a result of these allegations into whether you may or may not be a biased interviewer?"

        If he answers "None" then he doesn't know about me.

        If he answers "At least one" then he has admitted that it has been said that he is a biased interviewer, hasn't he? If he answers "I don't know" then he is still a biased interviewer.

        That was the ploy he tried on with Arderne.

        She avoided the trap.

    • Dukeofurl 1.7

      George/HPDA is also incorrect to claim 'its been in the media for 5 weeks'

      Harrasment/bullying yes. The sexual assualt claim was 'broken' by Spinoff in the last few days and the previous claims were in Spinoff 5 weeks ago.

      it even says so in the indro to that story

      "A woman who says she was subject of a sustained sexual assault by a Labour staffer has for the first time described .."


      Dateline of that story was 9 Sept

      • Formerly Ross 1.7.1

        The article by Alex Casey quotes Nigel Haworth:

        “It’s important to be clear that none of the complaints the party investigated related to sexual assault. The person leading the original review made it clear to the complainants that the party would never be the appropriate body to handle allegations of that nature and that they would need to be investigated by the police.”

        Have any of the alleged victims spoken to police, and how many have approached Paula Bennett? What did the alleged victims expect would happen after approaching Bennett? What expertise does Bennett have in dealing with victims of sexual assault? How has Bennett assisted the alleged victims?

        • lprent

          The article by Alex Casey quotes Nigel Haworth:

          “It’s important to be clear that none of the complaints the party investigated related to sexual assault. The person leading the original review made it clear to the complainants that the party would never be the appropriate body to handle allegations of that nature and that they would need to be investigated by the police.”

          Ummph. Clearly I didn’t read that article deeply enough. Which would be pretty much what I would have expected.

          Bullying by a staffer employed by parliamentary services which is what the original complaints appear to have been about are barely within the remit of the NZ Council, and will only apply to two aspects…

          1. If the subject of complaints concerned should have access to NZLP volunteers. It sounds like there was a clear effort towards separation.
          2. If they should be a member which doesn’t sound like it was raised. It would have been the subject of the full council.

          Reading the article again. It appears that what ‘Sarah’ and ‘Jamie’ is reporting and what the panel from the NZ Council are reporting are two completely different sets of interviews and meetings.

          But basically I can’t see any way that the NZ Council could have or would have acted on a sexual assault complaint. They simply don’t have any mandate to do so.

          That is and should have been a police matter.

          • SPC

            So the Council would only deal with allegations of assault, but not sexual assault.

            Thus would ignore evidence submitted about sexual assault.

            Thus could assure the PM they were not looking at any allegations of sexual assault – even though some people may be alleging that this has happened and providing such testimony to it.

            • lprent

              Sexual assault is a criminal offence. You can’t have vigilante groups (like the NZ Council?) dealing with it. That is unlawful.

              Tell me – what exactly do you think the NZLP council can do about any assault? They literally aren’t allowed to deal with things that are in the realm of criminal.

              I’d suggest that you campaign for a law change to achieve what you seem to be asking for. The problem comes with what you think that law change should look like, especially when it needs to cover all organisations.

              • SPC

                You seem to be missing my point – why was the PM of the view, for months, that no allegations of sexual assault had been made?

                As to organisational safety, if an allegation of a serious sexual assault had been made many would act to protect members long before police took the matter to court. In this case the matter is one confused by mixed jurisdiction – place of work and political party are connected but not the same.

                Thus the confused interface between the party and the PM – with parliamentary services not even involved, as no complainant was on staff.

                • lprent

                  Because that was what she was told? I thought that was made pretty clear by the PM in the last few days.

                  Don’t you read the news?

                  • SPC


                    Were we not discussing why she was told that, rather then the truth?

                    1. Because the Council do not investigate criminal matters, it informs the PM it is not investigating criminal matters.

                    2. The PM informs the media there are NO ALLEGATIONS of criminal matters being investigated by the Council.

                    3.There were such allegations made, but the Council does not/did not investigate them.

                    If the allegation is dead on arrival at the Council but lives on for those who testify to it, will the dead parrot come back to life and squawk out a name? For whom the parrot squawks … .

    • xanthe 1.8

      Ok here's the thing,

      We all knew six weeks out from last election that the LP was a basket case! the country wasn't going to vote for them and I certainly wasn't.

      And then there was Jacinda. Suddenly we had an actual caring, empathetic, smart! and appealing person to vote for and I and enough others changed our minds and voted for her. Events have shown that we made the right choice.

      But I do not expect miracles. the LP is still a dysfunctional basket case and Jacinda is not going to turn that around with a magic wand. we should not expect her too. If she remains at the helm for long enough things will improve. and you can argue that each major #$%CK up along the way will actually make things better (as long as the right people get the blame!!).

      I really don’t think this will affect election 2020 at all. sadly ALL the available parties are shit. There is only Jacinda and the populous will vote for her as there is nothing else.

      Its a sad state but here we are and it could be a lot worse!

  2. mac1 2

    There is a very important issue going on with the language of how things are being reported here.

    I am examining in particular the assertion by HDPA in Pete George's comment at 1 above.

    The text reads. "“A month ago I visited New Zealand [Labour Party] Council. Very seriously shared my view that they were not the appropriate place to undertake inquiries around concerning behaviour of members of the Labour Party. But particularly they are not the appropriate place to ever undertake an investigation into a sexual assault. And that would be their view too.”

    My reading of this quote is that there is a break in the meaning after this two sentences "“A month ago I visited New Zealand [Labour Party] Council. Very seriously shared my view that they were not the appropriate place to undertake inquiries around concerning behaviour of members of the Labour Party. "

    The next two sentences are, as I read it, a comment by Ardern upon what she siad to the council a month ago. She added on the reference to the sexual allegations as an extension now that she had been informed of the sexual allegations.

    The use of the word "would" indicates the conditional nature of the comment, starting at the word "But".

    Read the quote like this, instead, to get what I believe Ardern was saying.

    "“A month ago I visited New Zealand [Labour Party] Council. Very seriously shared my view that they were not the appropriate place to undertake inquiries around concerning behaviour of members of the Labour Party.

    But particularly they are not the appropriate place to ever undertake an investigation into a sexual assault.

    And that would be their view too.”

    The word 'would' indicates that the issue had not been considered by the Council a month ago but refers to the situation now, after disclosure of sexual assault allegations, as to how they 'would' now react.

  3. Sacha 3

    Titirangi chickens not cheap to tackle. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/115647790/titirangi-chickens-will-cost-about-112-each-to-remove

    Birds would be captured in the areas where they were fed using nets, traps and by hand.

    Wonder if they priced 'capturing' the person who feeds them instead?

    • David 3.1

      $25000 to catch an estimated 100 – 200 chickens does sound an awful lot. And it’s not as if the are spread over a very large area: mainly the shopping area and community centre. At dusk they are perched in trees and, you would think, could be rounded up with a minimal of effort.

  4. Pat 4

    Neolib owned MSM coming for the Coalition ably assisted by a preponderance of useful idiots….and inept handling by the parties themselves.

    Are memories now so short that a Nat Gov next term becoming a possibilty?

  5. A 5

    Save Our Subbies!

    …makes a good point about paying PAYE, ACC, etc, but HNZ hasn't paid them. My boy is a tradie and I worry that one day this will be him – stressed with no way of avoiding massive losses, kids asking parents if they are ok?


  6. marty mars 6

    sad vlad

    A Russian rapper who describes himself as Vladimir Putin’s best friend has pulled his latest pro-Kremlin music video from YouTube after it set a new record for online unpopularity.

    The track, entitled Moscow, was released by Timati on the eve of Sunday’s city council elections in the Russian capital.

    …The music video, which featured sweeping images of Moscow’s best-known landmarks, recorded the highest number of dislikes – 1.48m – for a single video on Russian YouTube. It also entered the top 30 most disliked music videos worldwide. It had 85,000 “likes”.

    Timati denied allegations that he had been paid by the government to record the track.

    …Guf, another rapper who contributed to the now notorious music video, apologised to his fans and said he had not even been aware elections were taking place. Putin’s ruling United Russia party suffered massive losses at Sunday’s city council polls.


  7. Peter 7

    It seems it's just another day when proof and truth are disposable commodities.

  8. south china morning post covers bridges grovelling in china..

    'Euan Graham, the executive director of La Trobe University’s Asia department in Melbourne, said the visit set a “new jaw-dropping standard in cringeworthiness for Western politicians visiting China”.

    “While the questions were leading, Bridges took up the challenge of buttering up the party with obvious enthusiasm, praising Xi Jinping in such obsequious terms that he sounded like a paid-up party member,” Graham said.'


    • Chuck 9.1

      Both Bomber and Cactus Kate agree on one point – brand Jacinda is in mortal danger of imploding.

      Depending on which view you tend to lean toward either Jacinda has no idea of what is happening within her own inner circle (Bombers take) or she does and looks the other way (Cactus).

      • SPC 9.1.1

        It's a bit of both. The play book is to allow the party leader deniability in the cover up. The leader above the fray talks about process and the party waits to see if they can make it go away or not.

        • greywarshark

          Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern has more on her plate to deal with than the prurient and malicious thoughts of you RW coming here. Thank goodness that we don't have a person from your 'set' at the head of our country any more. And long may that continue. Why don't you brand your lot with your chosen brand logo, or get it tattooed on each hand, so we know who not to shake hands with so we can keep all our fingers.

          • SPC

            Both wrong in tone and in fact. I've voted to the left of you my entire life.

            • Enough is Enough

              As did I, and will continue to. Just look back at my comments over 10 years.

              Greywark seems to be suggesting that you are right wing if you dare to criticise the Prime Minister, the government, or the handling of this sexual assault.

      • lprent 9.1.2

        And what does Jacinda’s brand have to do with getting anything done about these allegations?

        I’m afraid that neither Bomber nor Cactus Kate seem to actually be interested in anything except the political fallout?

        • Chuck

          "And what does Jacinda’s brand have to do with getting anything done about these allegations?"

          Once the alleged victims went public – nothing. Its as you allude to political fallout.

          It is clear the complainants believed that the Labour Party after hearing their testimonies would have acted with empathy and made the necessary changes. The opposite happened.

          There are two separate issues at hand. 1/ Will the alleged victim/s give statements to the police ending up in court if the evidence is sufficient. 2/ The fallout within the Labour Party (both wings) as to who knew what and when and if the complainant's assurances are correct, why the sexual assault detail was suppressed.

          • lprent

            Agreed about the police – that is where it should have gone in the first place for both the Young Labour camp for something that was clearly unlawful behaviour (the only thing that the NZLP could do was to chanbge procedures to that the opportunity didn’t happen again) and for this one based on what was in the Spinoff article.

            The fallout in NZLP is just problematic. NZLP could do something if the allegations related to something that happened at a NZLP event. They can’t do much if it wasn’t as appears to have been the case. The person involved isn’t an employee of the NZLP. Similarly the actions claimed appear to be criminal.

            The NZLP has no more ability to deal with sexual assault cases than any other external organisation. Employers can. Police can. Complaints should be directed to them.

            Now I’m sure that there will be political fallout from this one. The correct response should be to tighten the complaint procedures to things that the NZLP council can actually do.

            That should be clearly written, quite formal, and be signed by the complainant that they know the limits of what could be done.

            If anything more is required, then it is a law change that changes the legal requirements for all organisations – one that covers from companies to charities. And includes the legal requirements for the police. Having half-arsed unenforceable coverage for sexual assaults through to bullying behaviour needs to be comprehensive and legislated rather than half arsed, unclear and unenforceable as this current snafu shows.

  9. greywarshark 10

    The statement said, until now, the complainants had believed that Mr Haworth had had the best of intentions.

    "He was like a fatherly figure to us six women and he's let us down."

    This is from a statement that was in a Radionz news piece. https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/398515/labour-complainants-say-party-president-let-them-down

    Isn't this similar to what Louise Nicholas experienced with a senior police officer to whom she took her story – that he was seemingly sympathetic but with the idea of taking it no further?

    In the 2013 story 'Louise Nicholas: 'I've gone full circle' she and Police Commissioner announce an initiative where she is helping police and the public in giving guidance on help for victims and family after sexual abuse. Ms Nicholas, a campaigner for victims, has helped police create a brochure which will be given to anyone who reports a sexual crime with the focus on support for survivors and their family and whanau. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10891131 (In it her name was spelt differently, with two variations Nichols and Nicholas! It's hard to get things right it seems.)

    The matter of dealing with attitudes to sex and being more open about how it affects our thinking and behaviour needs to be actioned as it is still a leading cause of unhappiness and violence when it should be the opposite. I really like the Hollies 'All I Need is the Air that I Breathe' for the sort of fulfilled and serene feeling that can be the outcome of good sex. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HydvceA1PAI

    But of course it is not appropriate to discuss things positively, only to criticise outcomes – an endless and ultimately vicious circle.

    Looking in to the background of policing and NZ mores in the Louise Nicholas case brought forward a number of stories. This is one.

    The Louise Nicholas saga – Out Of The Shadows The Louise Nicholas saga – Out Of The Shadows by Phil Taylor in 2007


    The reporting on sexual matters being covered and uncovered in one location in NZ is an unusually honest and frank nearly stream-of-consciousness piece. It reflects how things are happening in our impoverished degraded society after neolib swept our norms away – our jobs, our sense of agency in our lives, our ability to earn a living wage and have a place of our own to live, and the degraded community that has followed on the heels of the depredations of neolib. The economist dreamers who know nothing about real life and everything about their graphs and charts and computer models with economic 'laws' that are generalised, showing tendencies, and not suitable to be adopted as concrete universal law. But the government has accepted and implemented the neolib theories and the patchy and erratic results are being experienced in a tidal wave over all the country now.

    • SPC 10.1

      The statement said, until now, the complainants had believed that Mr Haworth had had the best of intentions. "He was like a fatherly figure to us six women and he's let us down."

      Using the now standard play book.


      • greywarshark 10.1.1

        I'm sorry i haven't time to read the sort of books that you read SPC. I never notice from your comments that they have given you any insight into the depressing problems of today, and future, and still existing ones of the past.

        • SPC

          I never notice from your comments that they have given you any insight into the depressing problems of today, and future, and still existing ones of the past.

          The comments I have made cannot do that. But then, nor do the comments of others do that for them after they made them either.

      • Dukeofurl 10.1.2

        Asian Invasion? Cactus Kate up to her old tricks and SPC uses this as a source ?

    • lprent 10.2

      Isn’t this similar to what Louise Nicholas experienced with a senior police officer to whom she took her story – that he was seemingly sympathetic but with the idea of taking it no further?

      It is not only there. You’ll find that everywhere from HR departments covering corporate arses through to the police. Basically you can’t and shouldn’t depend on authority figures. You need to depend on mandated procedures and avoid shortcuts and fob-offs.

      What needs to happen is to find out what the formal complaints procedures are for the actual issue that you’re dealing with and then to follow them rigorously and relentlessly to achieve the desired outcome. Find the review and appeal procedures at the same time and make it very clear that they also will be followed.

      In this case, if the allegations were correct, presumably to removing someone from their position that they were exploiting. Unfortunately that will usually expose the complainant to formal and court processes. But really the reason you do this and all other complainant procedures is as much about stopping the repetition of activities on to other people.

      • greywarshark 10.2.1

        lprent Just a musing. Your concerns about ensuring good practice made me think about keeping things clean and fresh and i thought of Quenton Crisp. I'm not a good housekeeper, and the witticisms of this eccentric Brit amused me:-

        Quentin Crisp — 'There is no need to do any housework at all. After the first four years the dirt doesn't get any worse.' from Goodreads quotes.

        Your points above show that it is essential to do good housekeeping as you have described. Not to do it from the first can result in the dire outcomes Crisp describes, which cannot be tolerated when it comes to abuse and bullying.


        And this can also be applied to the reports of police bullying of lower ranks which seems endemic.


        • McFlock

          Disagree entirely on housekeeping (I'm on Crisp's side for that one), agree entirely on the bulk of your comment 🙂

          I'm involved with a non-profit organisation, on the board. We get a lot of people through the door from members of the public to client organisation to our own staff and volunteers. Thousands a year. So statistically speaking we also get hundreds if not thousands or people who have or will sexually assault others at some time in their lives.

          So we have the basic OSH procedures and plans, and we also have procedures and plans for sensitive issues of varying levels (causing discomfort through to to outright criminal complaint). And they're workable procedures with clear action points.

          It's part of making a robust organisation, as opposed to ticking boxes to limit personal liability.

          We're not perfect – sooner or later shit will happen that we clusterfuck in a catastrophic way – but we can at least plan for the likely hazards.

    • greywarshark 12.1

      It seems from reading that piece, that many young NZs don't think much about what people from another English-speaking culture are like. We aren't all the same – as the saying goes from GB Shaw – 'The English and the Americans are two peoples divided by a common language.'

      What Waititi said was just right.

      "At the end of the day, the reality is we're all losers, and we're all uncoordinated," is another of the filmmaker's pearls of wisdom.

      "We're the worst of all of the animals on Earth and there's something quite endearing about that."

      Good point. Rosie Carnahan-Darby, an LA-based Kiwi comedy producer, says New Zealanders' "very dry, sarcastic, sardonic, self-deprecating sense of humour" doesn't always translate well in the US.

      "Another thing to remember is that as a nation, New Zealand was very isolated for a very long time, so our language and culture has evolved to reflect that," she says, adding that humour from a country other than your own will almost always seem strange.

      And washroom, bathroom, toilet, wc. Anyone who has watched USA tv much should know that they are very given to euphemisms for the basic matters of life, and are sort of agin' them? Like they didn't allow even a married couple to be pictured in bed together in the early movies. That's weird. And Canada is a bit like the USA – it has a strong Scottish Christian background too. But in Quebec who knows, those saucy French – now that is another prejudice, misconception, perhaps.

  10. greywarshark 14

    Keep watching – it would be terrible if NZ as we know and love it vanished one day while we were not looking. Oh dear we will say, I didn't know it was so sick, why didn't someone say something, we could have helped, saved it from this terrible end. It is terminal, and we aren't even allowed to give it euthanasia. Now I can't bear to watch.

    This morning's news.


    Bad plumbing. Poor job. Not done to good standard and probably regulations (if any) are broken, ignored.


    Officially denied by taxi people, but disabled person on ACC needing assistance from government as promised to citizens are being denied because ACC machine-minds, aggravating alghorithms, won't pay normal rates to meet costs of taxi drivers.


    The real economy for the people is in small face to face business. It is suffering badly, because of poor decisions that have ignored the domestic economy while going after more glamorous exports, and foreign investors who make everyone feel important when they come and take an interest in us and pick our plums, but these are not the workers in the orchards.


    More and more money on airports?? When we are worrying about climate change and using less fossil fuels and also what about the principled travellers which will ruin our business, they might cut down on their willingness or ability to travel by air?

    Bloody unbelievable. Those of us who are thinking need to set up 24 hour watches so we can keep up with those who dream up these nightmares while we are sleeping.

  11. McFlock 15

    Stuff is reporting that Howarth has resigned.

    Andrea Vance is also reporting it:

    Party President Nigel Haworth has resigned after Ardern saw correspondence in which "confirms that the allegations made were extremely serious"— Andrea Vance (@avancenz) September 11, 2019

    • SPC 15.1

      It would have taken more than one person to have kept the PM misinformed for so long, but we will not hear about most of the fallout.

      • SPC 15.1.1

        Lew suggests an approach.

      • McFlock 15.1.2

        Not really – he's the main connection between the party and the caucus.

        The investigation was screwed up, and I still think it's 50/50 that the reviewers viewed themselves as restricted solely to reviewing the investigation, rather than raising issues with Ardern.

        As for Lew, he seems to think everyone involved is employed by the party or even Ardern, rather than being elected officials.

        Hopefully the new president puts some stick about so shit isn't so ossified. And maybe the guy everyone's been complaining about should take a tip from Howarth.

        • Sacha

          Maybe someone can offer the alleged assaulter a seat on the Todd Barclay career express to the UK?

        • Chuck

          "The investigation was screwed up, and I still think it's 50/50 that the reviewers viewed themselves as restricted solely to reviewing the investigation, rather than raising issues with Ardern."

          That's a longbow to draw but ok let us accept they binned any reference to sexual assault …however we have Ardern telling us she asked and sort assurances that none of the claims were of a physical/sexual nature. That gives the investigation panel nowhere to hide, or maybe they did raise it?

          • SPC

            They were not investigating sexual assault matters and they told those complainants that such were matters for the police, so while they knew of such allegations, they were not investigating them. And thus they could tell the PM none of the allegations they were investigating involved sexual assault (because they do not investigate those matters).

            A male complained he was assaulted when confronting the alleged perp, if he was also told to take that to the police, there would have been less and less for them to investigate and find him culpable for.

            The interesting thing is that no one has yet said they were asked to inform the party if they took the matter to police. Did they presume no one would?

            • lprent

              The interesting thing is that no one has yet said they were asked to inform the party if they took the matter to police. Did they presume no one would?

              Perhaps because it is illegal to interfere in any individuals decision to lay a complaint to the police or interfering with a police investigation. I’d have to look up the acts (which I don’t have time for right now), but I remember running across that several times in various contexts over the decades.

              Think it through about what the implications are of having early warning about a complaint being laid.

              • SPC

                I don't see being informed, after the fact, of a complaint to police being made, as interfering in the decision to do so.

                Or party awareness of this having occurred compromising or interfering with any investigation by police for that matter.

                In this matter the party advised people to take matters to police, if it was in fact illegal to influence a persons decision on whether to go to police, the party would surely not have done so.

          • McFlock

            I'm not sure how proper it would have been to speak to the reviewers like that directly. So who did the assurances come from (hint: probably the guy who just quit).

            But either way, sometimes folks in such roles have a very narrow idea of what "professionalism" means in that role, because it's not their usual job.

      • Sacha 15.2.1

        Ardern from her release above:

        “This morning I was provided some of the correspondence from complainants written to the party several months ago. It confirms that the allegations made were extremely serious, that the process caused complainants additional distress, and that ultimately, in my view, the party was never equipped to appropriately deal with the issue.

        Evidently that was good enough for her.

      • Gosman 15.2.2

        Looks like I was off by 24 hours…

  12. haworth has resigned…

    • OnceWasTim 16.1

      Meanwhile "the PB" is so beside herself with joy, she's decided to treat herself to a new frock and "the Soi" hez dusoided on a noit on the tearn. Insiders say the gNatz are about to ramp up their targeting using a bit of new-found wealth promised on a recent trip to the Whurl's farcetist groan konamy.

      • Fireblade 16.1.1

        Paula Bennett on Twitter.
        Haworth has gone but this goes right to the PM. It’s her employee, her senior staff and a senior minister and what they knew when. And of course what Ardern herself knew.
        2:29 PM · Sep 11, 2019.

        • OnceWasTim

          It's probably high time Jacinda got out that Mark Richardson index finger again and directed it towards a few senior public servants and others just along for the ride.

          It isn't just Her Madge's opposition that are the problem but sure as shit it seems to be taking an eon for some to realise just where the roadblocks to transformation and kindness are. Often, they're staring them in the bloody face

    • Jimmy 16.2

      Nigel had to go to protect Jacinda. She is far more important.

  13. joe90 17

    Terrified because she understands how the rich and their schemes work.

    • vto 17.1

      Ha, that's brilliant, especially the part where one of the goons noted that the last time government went after the banks in the 1930's, twenty years later in the 50's and 60's they had the most equal income spread ever..

      ffs what is wrong with people

  14. The Fairy Godmother 18

    Looks like Nigel Harworth has resigned and taken one for the party.

    • Anne 18.1

      Yes Fairy Godmother, that's my take too.

      The DP brigade and their media enablers were not going to be satisfied until they had his scalp. My pick is: he took it for an underling or two.. Now they will be after Jacinda's scalp.

      Anyone see Soper on the TV stand-up with Jacinda today? Standing over her (almost) shouting hostile questions at her. What an ill mannered creep. She ignored him.

  15. Puckish Rogue 19

    Anyone still believe this is a false flag operation, asking for a friend angel

    [lprent: FFS The false flag was about the “open letter’. Banned for 3 months for lying about my moderation. ]

    • Stuart Munro. 19.1

      I'm far from convinced it's meaningful. Even your own interest is driven by factionalism, not credible concern for the victim or victims. It's news (to you) because it represents an opportunity to impugn the government, not because the government are supporters of abuse. As such it is a side show, whatever the facts (and I've yet to see them) may be.

    • marty mars 19.2

      keep cracking jokes about this, after all judith collins is your hero you zero, and you must score your points to be a big man eh

      meanwhile the rest of us will listen carefully and watch closely to try to sort this out for the VICTIMS

      • Puckish Rogue 19.2.1

        Had this issue not been pushed Labour we wouldn't have known about it, had the issue not been aired the victims would not have their chance to speak, if Labour had their way no one would have known about this and the guy would be free to keep on doing what he likes

        • marty mars

          yessss hold your precious close you P.O.S. and cry your fake tears of concern as you pretend to care – no one is fooled – it makes your true nature shine forth puckwit

          • Puckish Rogue

            "cry your fake tears of concern as you pretend to care "

            Take that back, I have no wish for anyone here to think I might be part of Labour

        • lprent

          As far as I can see, he still is free to do what is alleged.

          Until a formal complaint is made to the police or parliamentary services then there is very little to stop him.

          • SPC

            Are they not PS only involved when both parties are on staff?

            • lprent

              Why? PS doesn't have a complaints department and procedures for external people to access. I think that has been standard at every place I've worked at.

              If I complain about an employee of an organisation that I'm dealing with then I'd expect that is a problem for their manager and probably then to their HR. It is after all an issue for the organisation if people complain about the behaviour of their employees.

              • SPC

                Did the party volunteers work with him as a staff member of parliamentary services? Or as part of the Labour Party organisation to which they …

                Sure they could say they felt unsafe when visiting parliament and why. But he was already working from home while the party investigated.

          • The Fairy Godmother

            And very frustrating too. As a young woman long before social media a friend told our women's group how she was raped at 16 by her minister. She chose not to tell the police. I was horrified at the thought he was still employed and still likely to hurt someone else. Yet not one of us could go to the police as it was all second hand. Its weighed on my mind. This is similar. Until the victim goes to the police harm will continue to be done.

  16. Peter Christchurh nz 20

    While we are talking about sexual abuse…..

    Marist Brother gets Home D for repeated child sexual abuse? His defence lawyer says the child exploitation porn he possessed had no victims?

    With attitudes like these, and the long history of Labours attitude to victim blaming or denial (like in the Darren Hughes case), no wonder Ardern has a see no evil/hear no evil attitude.

    She's toast now I think, unless she and Labour start seeing that a kinder and more caring government starts with how the most powerless individuals in society are treated.


    • Puckish Rogue 20.1

      If I could wave a magic wand then any and all child sexual abuse would be mandatory jail time, no ifs or buts

      • In Vino 20.1.1

        PR, if you were not simply utilising sexual abuse for your own political purposes, you would use your magic wand to put an end to all sexual abuse.

        You are nowhere near as idealistic as your crocodile tears pretend.

    • Anne 20.2

      That's drawing a long bow comparing those two cases PCnz.

      And you're up the creek without a paddle when it comes to Jacinda. Where have you been these past nine months in particular? Or do you have an extraordinarily poor memory?

      • Peter Christchurh nz 20.2.1

        Anne, Re-reading my post, yes you are right. Linking the Marist Brother to this current situation was wrong of me.

        I guess what I was trying to say was that sexual abuse, in general, is still way too casually viewed by many people.

        Not sure what you mean in your second comment? I absolutely admire her handling of the mosque shooting. Hope she take a similar approach with this. Maybe she was telling the truth and was misled. Just find that surprising.

        • Anne

          Fair enough. I thought you were referring to Jacinda when you mentioned … a kinder more caring government. They are infinitely better then the previous government but still have a way to go.

          I went through a similar process to these 'complainants' 25 years ago but it wasn't through a political party although politics was involved. In my case the incidents were more broad-based (and there were sexual connotations as well) but I was terrified. What absolutely shocked me (still does) was the inability of the authorities I approached to be able to comprehend what I was trying to tell them. They were all men and they clearly concluded I was just making shit.

          I suspect something similar happened here.

          • Anne

            Oops last sentence – making up shit.

          • Peter Christchurh nz

            Yes, a way kinder and more caring government for sure. No doubt whatsoever in my mind about that!

            Posts, texts etc always miss the nuances that are so important, and it is so easy, for me at least, to not quite convey the subtleties of my message at times. Hope you can understand that and allow me a little grace.

          • Shadrach

            "And yet, these are the rules the young complainants in this latest scandal have had to negotiate their way through: a task made all the more difficult and distressing by the fact that nobody told them what they were. They did not understand that the invitation to come forward with their personal experiences of sexual misconduct was never meant to be taken seriously. They did not grasp that the prime objective of the Labour Party is not to build a better, fairer world, but to win the next election. "


            Your cheerleading is sickening.

            [Your comment was a reply to Anne’s @, which was based on her experience with a similar complaint process. I cannot see how this could be considered as “cheerleading [that] is sickening”. You couldn’t even be bothered to use your own words but instead used Chris Trotter’s, which bear no relevance to Anne’s personal comment and experience and it was mind-numbingly stupid trolling given the recent developments. In any case, I’m going to stop you from trolling this site in general and of women here in particular in order to improve the overall culture here. Banned for three months – Incognito]

    • WeTheBleeple 20.3

      I think you'll find Ardern stared evil straight in the face. You, on the other hand, bow deferentially to any POS you think might pimp your precarious position of being a complete prick.

      The Standard was a good read. PR and his PR team have fucked it.

      [We don’t need (more) personal abuse and insults. Please tone it down – Incognito]

      • alwyn 20.3.1

        "I think you'll find Ardern stared evil straight in the face".

        Applying her make-up was she? Or are you thinking about something else?

        • In Vino

          Sorry alwyn – witty, but deficient. Staring evil in the face can only be eyeball to eyeball. Applying makeup, people look anywhere but the eyeball. Little external details, not the essential.

          Good quip, but no banana.

          I think this indicates your lack of a socially cohesive philosophy..

          Just saying

        • marty mars

          wow so you are implying that our Prime Minister is evil – sad to see someone so low and useless drop even further but you, alwyn, have managed it – wash your face with lots of soap cos you are dirty

          • alwyn

            There there. You really shouldn't make such assumptions about what I say.

            Now just calm down you little adorer of all creatures on the sinister side. This incoherent rage can't be good for your blood pressure.

            • marty mars

              “"I think you'll find Ardern stared evil straight in the face".

              Applying her make-up was she?”

              I have no rage just disgust with your insinuations including this latest one – "Now just calm down you little adorer of all creatures on the sinister side"

              what does that mean in the context of this thread – you think our Prime Minister is a creature from the sinister side?

              You rwnj's are manhandling yourself constantly on this – such weaklings, it is no wonder you are fiddling on the hoof.

      • Peter Christchurh nz 20.3.2

        If you mean she showed brilliant leadership with the mosque shooting, you are right.

        But hey, as always wtb, just play the abuse, if that somehow makes you feel.better and you believe it in some strange way forms an argument. And please do not make assumptions about you, as certainly am tempted about you but have.far more respect for you than apparently you have for me, or maybe for anyone that has an opposing view.

        • Jimmy

          My 2 cents, for what its worth…yes I think Ardern was brilliant the way she handled the Chch mosque shooting. However, I believe she has not handled this well at all.

      • Incognito 20.3.3

        See my Moderation note @ 3:58 PM.

  17. Fireblade 21

    Will the National Party president Peter Goodfellow now reflect on his past behavior and resign?

    National Party president denies abuse allegation cover up.


    Harassed woman allegedly signed confidentiality agreement in Jami-Lee Ross case.


    • Anne 21.1

      Yep. The media were silent when National was in the spotlight for exactly the same sort of thing – twice in the past year. No screaming headlines. No hysterical commentaries from the likes of Hosking, Soper, HdPA – and others of their ilk. No presidential scalp demanded from the Nats.

      • rod 21.1.1

        + 100 Anne yes

        • greywarshark

          Just bought a book from the library 50c – on how opposition from a deadhead, erratic, manic, ambitious politician that no-one in the Labour Party wanted as a leader was replaced by a reluctant Julia Gillard.

          And how she was attacked and villified by a nest of media vipers and polly sycophants, for the whole of her time in the position, with attention going onto the latest trumped-up stooory instead of her remarkably good outcomes achieved while working with a Coalition

          Sound familiar? Soimon may be a wizard's familiar. Who would the wiz in the background be?

          I'll put some quotes later from auuthorKerry-Anne Walsh, Oz reporter of renown and regular on Radionz.

      • Chris T 21.1.2

        You have to be joking, they were all over it like a rash!


        And half of posters on here came across as if it were Ross who was the victim and gave the woman crap.

        And Cameron Slater became their number one source of truth.


        • Anne

          Bullshit. The MSM reported it all yes, but there was no blood-rushing to the head. No hysterics from the usual suspects eg. Hosking and co. And no MSM screaming for heads to roll.

  18. rod 22

    TVNZ so called news these days, is more like a party political broadcast on behalf of the National Party. What are the political affiliations the news editor? Anyone know?

  19. greywarshark 23

    Flickering lights – I've got them at home. Why, what ?? This info that I have come across so far.

    I’ve never had this before. I don’t have dimmers just bog standard light fitting hanging from the ceiling. I still use some incandescent bulbs, and one of those was flickering also.




    Washington Post says LED can’t flicker. ‘How to stop your LED lights from flickering – The Washington …
    https://www.washingtonpost.com › business › 2018/07/25 › how-stop-your-l…
    Jul 31, 2018 – There’s no flickering. LED bulbs don’t have glowing filaments…..’

    • MickeyBoyle 23.1

      LEDs can flicker, it's rare but is usually caused by the LEDs driver or a dimmer switch in the circuit. Even though you don’t always see it all mains powered light sources flicker, whether incandescent, halogen, fluorescent or LED due to our electrical supply being alternate current. Older 230V LEDs are especially affected by the odd flicker, what voltage are yours?

      • Andre 23.1.1

        Tried really hard to detect any flicker in my household 230V LEDs ($2 cheapies from Bunnings), using techniques I know I can detect flicker in some other LEDs. Videoing, head movements, variable speed rotating objects. Nothing.

        They're warm white, so they're blue leds shining through a lot of yellow phosphor. And because that phosphor emission takes a while to die off, the yellow part of the light might not be flickering significantly even if the underlying blue led actually is flickering. Kinda like a light analogue of an electronic capacitor. On mine, you can definitely see the light fading when they're switched off, unlike the instant-off you get with monochromatic LEDs (such as brake lights).

        Don't have any cool white LEDs to check. Maybe they have more noticeable flicker since much more of the output light is directly from the blue LED, rather than absorbed then re-emitted from a yellow phosphor.

        • greywarshark

          I prefer warm white, and find the cool white ones give a stark lab room feel. here is stuff to learn – lumens etc and I have been reading a bit here and there. I like to keep some indcandescents for spares. I think I should do most of my political reading at night – by the time I am finished I am so energised that I am incandescent myself, probably enough to do two rooms.

      • greywarshark 23.1.2

        Mickey B – Ah, silence about that voltage? I have been using Phillips Tornado but got some EV things from Warehouse. And then I got some that have normal round shaped bulbs from the supermarket. I imagine they are all the usual is that 230-240? Anyway I will look in the weekend and try to be more informed.

    • Andre 23.2

      If you've got flicker in an incandescent bulb, I strongly recommend checking it out carefully. A likely cause is some kind of poor connection, which can than cause arcing and heat. And if it really goes bad, could conceivably start a fire (very very rare, but possible).

      With it off, first carefully look for any sign of anything getting hot (just look, don't touch). Yellowing plastic near the socket is a sign. Then turn it on and listen for buzzing and/or crackling noises when it's on. Turn it back off, let it cool, remove the bulb and look at the contacts on the bulb and inside the socket. Check the metal shell for the contacts isn't loose or distorted (both bulb and socket).

      If there's nothing visibly faulty, put the bulb back in and check the bulb is a snug fit in the socket and the spring pressure of the contacts feels normal as you install the bulb. (Definitely do not poke at the contacts inside the socket to feel the spring pressure, if you're taking advice from randoms off the webz, you definitely don't know enough about what you're doing to do that safely).

      If the bulb and socket all seem good, have a listen for buzzing/crackling noises at the switch, then at the fuse box. If you hear any buzzing/crackling noises anywhere that correspond to malfunctioning electrical stuff, please call a sparky.

      edit: Should also mention a rellie moved into a new place that had a bunch up lights with the sockets pointing up rather than hanging down, that were giving problems. Turned out the sockets had filled up with dead bugs attracted by the light.

      • greywarshark 23.2.1

        Thanks Andre – Blinded by the light eh. I have had mice in the ceiling (old house and two layer ceilings – the normal 8 ft and further up in part 11 foot.) I left some rat bars up there to chew on but haven't been up there lately. I hope they aren't chewing on my electric cable. I will have to explore. Have a new ladder so have the stable steps for getting up there.

        I'll keep all that useful stuff fom you to hand.

        • Rosemary McDonald

          Re: Rodents.

          The buggers will chew your wiring and eat bits of your car. (Some bright spark decided to be all eco-cool and use bio plastic insulation on some of the wiring of a particular brand of car…as if the rats and mice need any encouragement.)

          We dealt to our problem with good old fashioned mouse and rat traps. Poison them and they just die and rot in your roof space…after chewing your plastic water pipes to ease their poison induced raging thirst.

          Bait the traps with peanut butter…or bacon fat…but especially peanut butter. Might pay to staple a bit of strong string to the rat trap and tie to a nail…they have been known to take off once caught, taking the trap with them.

          Sounds ghoulish…but over the past couple of years the rodents have become particularly destructive.

          And maybe get your wiring checked…does your flickering light cause the transistor radio to crackle?

  20. burt 24

    Harworth has fallen on his sword, I assess the reason being he was proven to have known and not informed the PM.

    More senior people put into those shoes today. How many more are going to stand and say they didn't know and/or didn't tell the PM?

  21. TootingPopularFront 25

    Scientific paper on Work Trade Centre 7 collapsing into its own footprint not because of fire but because of “the almost simultaneous failure of every column in the building.” surprise surprise! And yet further amazement that the mainstream media across the globe (with few exceptions) looks the other way https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2019/09/10/presstitute-blackout-of-9-11-study/

  22. greywarshark 26

    Hooray for tiny house owners in their fight to get some sensible and practical moves from legislators.

    MoBIE have got an exemption. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Let's have a gander at tiny houses minimum regulations and then let people get an affordable place to live. Is that asking too much from you shiny-seated twits?


    …But the fact the houses will be on wheels hits a nerve with tiny house owners like Amberley man Alan Dall, who was told by Hurunui District Council, and then by MBIE, he needed to make his tiny house building code compliant as a fixed-foundation structure.

    He maintains it should simply be treated as a vehicle, as should MBIE's houses…

    "For a $66,000 one-bedroom tiny house, it would very likely cost them another $20,000 to go through the consent process with council," he said.

    Mr Wightman acknowledged that MBIE's houses were for emergency situations, but said New Zealand's housing crisis was also an emergency, for which his tiny houses were a viable solution.

    Pity that the ones in the picture were painted a lovely shade of dark grey! They are as near to black as possible, dark grey is the new black, as black heats up too much and the paint splits, same with very dark green, navy. But there are other 'colours' in between black and other darks and white. Couldn't we enjoy our houses and colour them, be happy and look happy even decorate them like Romany ones.

  23. greywarshark 27

    I guess most fiction readers will like Robert Harris, many of whom I hope are men as they are known to be mainly non-fiction readers. He has written another one in a back to the future style I think. Interview:

    Robert Harris: The Second Sleep

    From Sunday Morning, 10:08 am on 8 September 2019 “All civilisations consider themselves invulnerable; history warns us that none is.” That is the ultimate warning from best-selling author Robert Harris’ latest novel that fictionalises the dangers that await humanity. You can listen plus read a full informative piece about his thinking.


    The Second Sleep has all the trappings of a historical novel, and it’s titled after the noted pre-industrial European habit of having two bouts of sleep and waking up in between to complete tasks or socialise.

    Readers might be fooled into thinking it’s set in the 15th Century as the book also opens with a young priest, Christopher Fairfax, arriving in a remote Exmoor village to conduct the funeral of his predecessor.

  24. greywarshark 28

    There's a saying about crooked people, that they can't even lie straight in bed. Boorish won't even be able to go to bed by the time the Kingdoms unite against him and bloody England.

    Brexit latest news: Parliament may have to be recalled after Scottish court rules Boris Johnson broke law by proroguing



    Brexit: Labour deputy Tom Watson calls for referendum ahead of election


  25. sumsuch 29

    There are 2 stories, the Right and the Left — dinna complicate matters. More importantly the kicked-overs point of view. We need a power of unity, or the rich will win. And all the failure in the last 40 years was lack of organised resistence to the decisions of the silly rich.

  26. Eco maori 30

    Kia Ora The Am Show.

    Condolences to Akilisi Pohiva whanau for their loss and to Tonga for the loss of a great Prime minister.

    Jacinda doesn't need to stress to much she puts trust in her top staff that is who made a mess of the staff issues.

    It will take time for the Muslims people who were at prayer in the Christchurch heal.

    I agree national played the parliamentary staffing issues to try and dent Jacinda Star Power. That's correct Willy national had there own scandals and the Coalition Government did try and use it as a tool harm there credibility.

    Looks to me like the national skeemers are not fronting up.

    Ko Te Reo Maori Te ahua reka ki Te iwi.

    Ka kite Ano

  27. Eco maori 31

    Yes I agree the Star power of great celebrities is greatest when use to influence humanity to do positive things for all the Papatuanuku co founders of Friends at Mahi Ka pai.

    Ka kite Ano

  28. Eco maori 32

    Kia Ora to Fush n Chip shop owner for teaching our Te reo Maori I think you protest the demise of our Ika taonga Terakihi kia kaha bro.

    Ka kite Ano

  29. Eco maori 33

    I'm not impressed with the fishing industry add stating that they only take a certain % percent of our Ika for one we have to trust them that the data is correct ITS NOT like One can not sit on a hill a take count of our fish stock they have to guess some of the data.

    Also we have to trust people are reporting there fish catch honestly some will but some people can't help but rip our fish off. Its so easy to set scales to have one kg less per bin. Because of this phenomenon fishing draws in the shady type of business persons there only conscience is MORE MONEY.

    They mite say they account for their sly ways but I have no confidence in this.

    I have seen right before my eyes our fish stock drop wet fish shell fish.

    When I was short in the tooth I could take my whanau walk around the pohatu for half a hour and get a decent kai. After 10 years that Kai Moana disappeared the state will be in a very depressed depleted state now 25 years later. It is good that the fishing industry has dropped there catch tonnage but that is a model that has failed to protect our wild resources in the past I don't believe it's going to work NOW. The Ambulance at the bottom of the hill strategy. I.E harvest the natural stock ya bonanza hard out everyone's creaming it.

    Next minute O these things are getting harder to catch let's slow down lower the take on the resource. And most speices collapse and never recovered unless we invest heaps of putea to reseed the wild stock ECT.

    For one I can not see that being achieved with Orange Roughy they live very long lives 50 to 150 years and thousands of meters deep for this reason I say 3 %estimated catch rates are to much.

    Let's protect our Mana taonga great resources for our Mokopuna and there descending tangata.

    Ka kite Ano links below.



  30. Eco maori 34

    Some Eco Maori Music For The Minute.

  31. Eco maori 35

    Some Eco Maori Music For The Minute.

  32. Eco maori 36

    Kia Ora Newshub.

    I think it's great that our government is making people register there guns and show that there mental health is stable before qualifying to get a gun licence it's about time.

    It was needed the 9 million extra funding for Christchurch mental health department especially after the Christchurch desaster Ka pai.

    Some people don't care about their workers working in the horticultural and neighbours. industry being affected by the chemicals they apply to their orchards. . Organic is the way to go.

    I agree with Helen Clarke.

    boris has master the art of bullshitting

    Ka kite Ano

  33. Eco maori 37

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News.

    That's was a great legacy The Tonga Prime minister has changing the government to a tangata democracy

    I'm. Not giving him any oxygen.

    I am very happy that Aotearoa real. History is going to be taught to all our tamariki in Aotearoa THAT will help create happiness and harmony amongst all tangata Ka pai.

    That is awesome seeing all the new tangata whenua running for councillors kia kaha

    Its great that Tangata Whenua O Aotearoa are receiving a warm reception while they are in China

    Kai pai Webster great speach it gives Eco Maori A sore face to see all the Rangatahi rising up and showing there Mana wairua. Even a little tear kia kaha.

    Ka kite Ano

  34. Eco maori 38

    You better leave my Tamariki and Mokopuna alone.

  35. Eco maori 39

    Some Eco Maori Music For The Minute.

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