I don’t think we’re quite as stuffed as the author makes us out to be or at least not in the short to medium term.
There’s one key issue she missed out and that is consumer enthusiasm to these new types of food, the whole frankenfood, heavily processed mindset is going to take quite a bit of time to overcome.
Positioning ourselves going forward though, organics has to be the future for NZ food production aim for those people who still want their food “natural’
Yes there is a resistance to ‘frankenfoods’ and there is also a growing grasp of the connection between a plant based diet and a lower carbon footprint.
That and the growing realisation that cows milk is not actually good for us.
I agree that organically is the way forward.
I also don’t recommend Cowspiracy, as it is a fundamentalist vegan propaganda film that takes far too many liberties with the truth in presenting its argument. I’ve critiqued this before – It seems to be comparing industrial stock farming with industrial agriculture and deciding that industrial agriculture is best. Both are highly polluting and destroy ecologies. Swapping one for the other out of ideological concerns just creates different problems, what we need to do instead is make all farming sustainable and regenerative.
A review of the film,
Responding to a polemic that plays as fast and loose with facts as this film could easily devolve into a line by line response, which would be even more boring to read than it would be to write. Instead, I’ll focus on a few of the main topics, beginning with how cows drink, burp, fart, and most of all poop, which – not to brag – I have some experience with.
Methane is a more vexed question, since cows indisputably belch and fart. In the film Anderson implies that cows are the main source of methane and that reducing their numbers is the fastest way to reverse global warming. After too much time poking around in search of definitive numbers on methane emissions, I decided to use those provided on a NASA website, even though a number of reputable sources arrive at different conclusions, particularly concerning the amount of methane released by wetlands, listed at 22% in the data I am quoting. By these numbers, ruminant livestock directly account for 16% of global methane emissions, and the (mis)management of all livestock manure accounts for another 5%. Human sewage treatment is 5%, biomass burning is 8%, fossil fuels production is 19%, and, surprisingly, rice cultivation is 12%. Various other manmade and natural sources fill out the remainder. While 21% of total methane is certainly significant, the idea that the elimination of livestock would clearly lead to a reversal of global warming trends is both an overstatement and an oversimplification, without getting into matters of methane’s half-life relative to carbon’s.
The great weakness of Cowspiracy, other than its title, is its single minded determination to prove that veganism is the only reasonable approach to feeding people, a proof it pursues without regard for facts or nuance. That’s not to say it’s worthless, for there are ideas for several good films within it. I would love to watch a truly investigative examination of any links between the industrial agriculture sector and large environmental non-profits, rather than one that infers connections from the vague responses of uncomfortable PR people. A devastating documentary could be made about the insanity of beef and dairy production in California, and I am all for consumers voting against them and other parts of the industrial food system with their dietary choices. I even think a fair examination of the ways small farms are not inherently better for land and livestock would be wonderful. Instead of any of these there is a failed effort to prove that one lifestyle choice can solve every environmental and agricultural problem.
This failure is not just a result of misleading and erroneous data, but even more so of superficiality. Though I watched carefully and took copious notes, I do not have a clear idea what Anderson’s vegan world would look like. Would excess land be converted to wilderness? Should the hills and fields of my farm return to forest and scrub like so much of the nearby land that used to be grass? Why is a monoculture of wheat preferable to a polyculture of pasture? Should we humans be connected to and reliant on the land around us and should these connections take different forms in response to local conditions? Yesterday, while out hunting turkey, I came across the remains of a deer, one of ten or so my brother and I have found this year. All of them starved or froze to death in the clutches of last winter. Now they are piles of mossy bones marking where living things curled up and never stood again. Why is this preferable to raising cows as I do, particularly when there’s room here for both?
I’d also add that in this discussion we need to distinguish between industrial farming designed to produce commodities to make money, and the need to have people growing food so we can eat. They are two different things entirely. Saying we should all be vegan supports industrial farming, because it pushes shifting from feedlot cows to monsanto soy. Neither are viable in a world of CC or a world that desperately needs to protect the environment.
Ta. Run it past Bill. I don’t remember the details (because I think the maths are a distraction), but from what I remember the ag figures are not a good representation of the state of play. Something to do with what they include in ag and what they don’t.
Plus there’s the food miles issue with eating meat (or eating anything).
Don’t know about that Weka, My understanding is that deforestation is included in agriculture among other things, so if you get down just to animal farming you are looking at much less than 14%?
What I do know is that it proves that PAUL’S documentary is a lying piece of propaganda shit.
And just for once, I’d like PAUL to stick around and keep discussing things when the FACTS don’t suit the lying propaganda he is posting….
Guess he’ll just go away for the night and then start up in the morning raving about the lying propaganda that doesn’t agree with his own lying propaganda….
Eating meat is the single most destructive thing you can do to the environment.
Quite apart from being wrong on the face of it (as others have explained), it’s also wrong at a deeper level: eating grass-fed livestock is better for the environment than eating crop plants. Get everyone on the planet eating soy and before long you’ll be wondering why there’s no topsoil any more.
Or, eating grass-fed livestock is the solution. Comes down to whether you prefer some soy-based edible object to a slab of meat or not. Don’t find it a difficult choice, myself, but maybe that’s just me.
‘How would you do that?’
Exactly the same way you would have people shift to perma-culture / power-down’/ go back to manual labour Weka.
You need social agreement it is necessary, and a socially agreed plan to make it happen.
It’s a tough one, but the Worlds population cannot simply keep growing can it?
‘And by how much?’
4 Billion sounds good to me. Take a few centuries to achieve.
‘And how would you stop the remaining people from burning fossil fuels and generally polluting the place?’
I’ve just spent a month in Asia and Europe on business, and from what i saw, my answer would be, ‘wouldn’t have the faintest idea!’.
Aotearoa is a tiny wee cocoon of tranquility. The pace and frenzy of the drive for ‘development’ in the emerging countries is way beyond anything I could envisage a mechanism for holding back.
I don’t think we’re quite as stuffed as the author makes us out to be or at least not in the short to medium term.
Not in the short term. The medium term should be the crossover period and the long term is when we replant our farms as native forest.
There’s one key issue she missed out and that is consumer enthusiasm to these new types of food, the whole frankenfood, heavily processed mindset is going to take quite a bit of time to overcome.
Doubt it. People have been eating ‘frankenfoods’ for awhile – pretty much anything that comes pre-made fits that bill.
I would suggest and am an advocate for more of a Robert Guyton approach where we plant with biodiversity in mind. Natives are at their best supplemented by various imports a favourite plant of mine (or weed to some) is Verbena bonariensis. The insect life, not to mention bees it supports is unreal and it kicks in right after Muehlenbeckia axillaris which bees love.
Talking about NZ going more to organic reminds me that I heard the Falkland Islands were into that.
I think we should establish High Commissioners and set up as sister countries. They seem to have cool headed people making governmental decisions and have ideas that we should talk about, and vice versa. And Falklands are similar to us, next to a hostile country as we are to Australia – which is ready to stand on our shoulders to achieve advantage for themselves and government ready to show disrespect like the boors they are.
Oh, Give Me a Home, Where the Sheep and the … – Modern Farmer
modernfarmer.com/2016/02/falkland-islands/
Feb 4, 2016 – The Falkland Islands are a wildlife sanctuary turned organic
Those Sci-fi books and movies showing machines that could be dialed up from stored ingredients and a synthetic steak pops out of the wall, are maybe a future much closer?
A very interesting article thanks Sacha. Can you imagine the ponderous Government machine adapting to swift changes? What about the poor old dairy farmers?
And how will I manage synthetic steaks? What about the sugar industry?
Actually the whole World economy would be in for a huge shake up?
Those Sci-fi books and movies showing machines that could be dialed up from stored ingredients and a synthetic steak pops out of the wall, are maybe a future much closer?
A very interesting article thanks Sacha. Can you imagine the ponderous Government machine adapting to swift changes? What about the poor old dairy farmers?
And how will I manage synthetic steaks? What about the sugar industry?
Actually the whole World economy would be in for a huge shake up.
I find articles like this really annoying – not due to anything the author writes, but because it rubs my nose in the fact that NZ used to be at the forefront of agricultural science but is no longer, and the outlook isn’t for improvement. We’ve had decades of a deadly combination: right-wing governments hollowing out the country’s public science research facilities, and hippies fighting against scientific experimentation in agriculture. Yes we’re going to get disrupted, and we’ve only ourselves to blame.
I don’t quite agree, What the author was trying to point out that what made us unique and successful( clean green, plenty of space) is no longer important or even needed.
You can now have a “dairy farm” in the middle of the Sahara, you can have a “dairy farm” in the middle of a Nestle chocolate factory.
These “dairy farms” can produce a product that is healthier than the original with no animal cruelty, minimal environmental damage and can be just about anywhere.
it’s unfortunate for NZ but large scale traditional dairying has been or soon will be superseded by this technology, it’s going the way of the dinosaur.
Given the environmental effects of large-scale dairy farming, it would be great if it became a niche business practiced only on a small scale.
I’ve eaten what Americans fondly imagine to be cheese, and believe we don’t need to be seriously threatened by American start-ups of non-agriculture-based food IF we stop holding back our own ag/food research. That’s “if” in capitals and italics because it’s a very big “if” and I don’t see a strong likelihood of us doing it.
One thing I have noticed is how strongly attitudes have changed in regards to the environment/animal welfare, especially with the current generation.
Take for example the electric car, it used to be the only selling point was that it would save you money, now the main selling point is that they’re eco-friendly which means you’re doing your bit for climate change, saving the world etc.
The same mindset is what will make this next generation food popular, thanks to the internet people now know that dairy is terrible for the environment, milk isn’t particularly good for you even though it tastes nice and there’s lots of animal cruelty that goes into the creation of dairy.
That is what’s going to be the big driver of this going forward if the dairy industry wants to compete it needs a radical overhaul and as soon as possible, the longer they leave it the worse it will get for the industry
Just as an aside, the claim that milk isn’t good for you is a canard. Lactose tolerance is a poster boy for human evolution because it spread so rapidly through the population – that rapidity being due to the big survival advantage it conferred. Dairy is excellent food and the people without lactose tolerance are really missing out.
No arguments re the problems associated with it as an industry, though.
I know right. Pfft to commercial agriculture. Shit taste like water and saw dust cause it’s stored longer and less nutritious. BM trying to sell dog shit again
I guess they have proper cheese in delis and suchlike. But in cafes and restaurants I stopped ordering anything that said it had cheese in it, because the bizarre white or orange stuff they were referring to wouldn’t be anything I’d recognise as cheese.
Just gotta love those business consultants.
David Skilling she ain’t.
Bad business consultants like the writer generate answers that always start with:
pile dumploads of private capital into something really risky, and pile dumploads of crap all over everything happening now, and trash every regulation you could possibly imagine might get in your way.
Can anyone tell me where we’ve heard that before?
– Sharemarket in the 1980s and 1990s
– Real estate and residential construction market 2007-2016
– GMOs in the late 2000s, within our CRI’s
– Mining and oil 2008-2015
And each one, tears before bedtime and generations of wasted capital generated fuck-all.
And yet here we are, economy doing about as well as it has ever done in our existence, diversifying as fast as it ever has, but some nutjob with a PhD in wank and a logframe and some travel expenses and a free-hit column and some great billable units to achieve gets to tell us the whole of agriculture is a sunset industry.
She should cut the horse manure and start a new essay with:
What do our customers want, and what will those customers pay the most for?
Douglas actually believed that the reforms he forced upon us would liberate the tech sector. Instead it set it back decades.
The point that he didn’t understand, and probably still doesn’t, is that the tech sector was built by the governments of the world – not free-market capitalists. Capitalists do the cheap and easy stuff that they can make a profit out of while it’s government that does the hard stuff that a profit can never be produced from.
Solar – land and habitat loss, requires significant raw and rare materials mined (rather than just a one-off large concrete pour). Not suitable for all locations due to climate.
Wind – shreds birds. Massive visual blot on the landscape and again not suitable for many locations.
Nuclear – promising but currently suffers from environmental issues due to waste problem. Expensive and vulnerable to technical problems.
Geothermal – great, only works in select locations though.
If we want to go clean, hydro power has a significant role to play, at least in New Zealand. Other countries might find it better to plop large scale solar in the desert or build next-gen nuclear plants, but NZ’s hydro electric backbone is fantastic.
Exactly, I’m going shopping for a new club and fur skin outfit this afternoon.
[you’re a fucking idiot who has no idea what powerdown even means. Don’t troll me, I’m not in the mood. You’re quite capable of engaging in intelligent debate, so I suggest you make some choices along those lines and stop with the soundbite baiting – weka]
What Johm Key has done to New Zealand as prime minister is similar to a friend who bought a WRX straight off the dock, pulled out to the lights to see how fast he could do a 1/4 mile and cooked the engine. Only in New Zealand’s case it’s going to take at least 20 years to become apparent that National can’t drive for shit.
who bought a WRX straight off the dock, pulled out to the lights to see how fast he could do a 1/4 mile and cooked the engine.
*facedesk*
Paying $120 to get such a vehicle carried to your local mechanics for a thorough going over, all new fluids and filters, BEFORE hammering it is the way to do it
Powering down, as you label it, isn’t really an option – it’s a necessity.
Putting all of the non-fossil suggestions that Brutus has mentioned in place would take decades – assuming we undertook such a task. And if our energy consumption patterns continued ‘as is’ while all that infrastructure got put in place, then carbon budget after carbon budget would get busted and the average global surface temperature would keep going up.
And I know you kind of hate numbers, but effective powering down isn’t a uniform scenario that can or even ought to be equally applied across all of society (or all societies). There is a huge class element involved due to the major culprits in terms of emissions tending to be richer people. (Roughly, the wealthiest 10% are responsible for about 50% of emissions according to studies done by Oxfam and others)
And richer people tend to be resistant to giving up their privilege and ‘ways’ – they’ll find a way adapt to a changing climate. Delusional, I know. As Yoda might say – the ‘she’ll be right’ is strong in those ones.
And richer people tend to be the ones heading up institutions we’ve tasked with organising and managing responses to climate change.
Nothing up-beat from this quarter today I’m afraid. There’ll be calamities. But since the first will be affecting (are affecting) poorer people far away in equatorial and tropical regions, we’ll just carry on. Eventually the effects will come down on our heads (on the poorest first and hardest of course) and the rich will likely just kind of carry on as best they can (move house, emigrate, lay in highly individualistic or atomised adaptation measures etc).
thanks for going into that in more depth Bill. And yep, class and CC.
It’s not so much that I don’t like the numbers, it’s that the I think the wrong maths are being done or at least some important maths isn’t being done yet. For instance, if what you say is true, that rich people disproportionately create/are responsible for more the problem (I believe this too), and that we therefore shouldn’t apply the power down uniformly across the nation (I also agree), and that therefore we should focus on rich people not poor people (I’m talking in NZ here, not somewhere like Somalia), then I’d say we need a different analysis as well. As you know, I think that most people in NZ need change, not just rich and well off people.
For instance, if we were to look at, in NZ, stopping all fossil fuel power generation, decommissioning dams, and possibly building some interim wind farms but acknowledging that they have their own problems, what standard of living could we expect in NZ? (and allowing for this being a thought experiment, so I get that there are all sorts of other things to take into account like transport and agriculture). Whose standard of living could we sustain? Middle class? Lower middle class? Working class? Underclass? BM’s fantasy of cave dwelling?
This is similar to when I talk about food and population. If we need to source most of our food locally and sustainably/regeneratively, how much food can we grow in each catchment in NZ?
It’s just another approach. I come to it from permaculture, which starts with those ecological principles and works out. I’d like to think about that more in terms of class, not just at the social justice level but also because I think that many of us are going to have to do physical work again (e.g. growing food). If we have a culture hell bent on ‘working class’ being something to avoid or move out of, how is that going to work out?
“but effective powering down isn’t a uniform scenario that can or even ought to be equally applied across all of society (or all societies).”
That’s an interesting way to approach this too. If by uniform you mean everyone takes a % cut downwards, then yep that’s grossly unfair and probably wouldn’t be helpful anyway. But if by uniform we look at a range of standards of living to aspire down to or up to depending on where one is currently, then I can see that being both useful and fair.
Your fantasies of some sort of communal agrarian society inevitably clash with human nature.
Assuming we were to all “return to the land”, the problem isn’t solved. Pre-industrial societies also suffered ecological devastation due to overpopulation and the inability to preserve and ration resources – as Easter island showed.
So you would of course need some sort of central authority to enforce environmental regulations in order to prevent the tragedy of the commons. Not only that, by forcing people back into lives of manual labour, considerable inequity would be generated – a society for the young, strong and able bodied effectively. The central authority would need to rectify these imbalances. Such a bureaucracy would require money, energy, and the ability to apply force to ensure compliance.
You end up right back at the beginning – just as agricultural humans originally formed governments to order their affairs and acquire the resources necessary to fulfil the desires of their citizens. Which then becomes just another beast to be fed as different views vie for influence.
And so we are back to square one.
You have to understand, there’s no voluntarily going back. Only war, genocide, pandemics, and natural disasters could “achieve” what you seek.
Our natural population increase in New Zealand is almost zero – that part is taken care of. We can’t dictate to the rest of the world what they do, but we can make appropriate policies for our environment and country.
We already do have them, but they could be tightened further especially given the number of NZ’ers already living overseas. If they all arrived back at once we simply wouldn’t be able to handle it.
Please explain why nothing could be produced in a post fossil world?
Please explain what is so ‘against human nature’ about growing food, raising livestock or living socially (communally)?
Please explain why a central authority is a prerequisite for order?
Please explain your adherence to the utterly discredited notion of ‘the tragedy of the commons’?
Please explain how it would be the case that people in whatever post fossil world would somehow lose the ability for empathy?
Why do you think the choice is between regressing to some mythical misanthropic Hobbesian world or just staying more or less as we are? What happened to the future!
3. Obvious. Communes over time begin to build their own identity to the exclusion of others from developing their own micro-culture. One group/commune organises itself to infringe/take more of the pie. That’s essentially the story of human history.
4. It’s not discredited, but it has been worked around at times. It’s still a reasonable basis for the argument though.
5. You may be empathetic, but in such a society, all it takes is for one group to not be and the party is over.
We know (or it’s claimed) that the poorest 50% of people in NZ produce 10% of NZ’s emissions. So if we want to see a substantial ‘overnight’ drop in NZ energy related emissions, then everyone would have to be living as half of us already do.
Homelessness aside, know anyone who lives in a cave? I don’t.
So okay. The business trips and the global jaunts and the various consumer goods with the huge carbon footprints that most of us can’t buy anyway….gone.
Throw in legislation around efficiency ratings on cars, fridges, etc and a fair few of us would see our standard of living rise (less money spent on the fuel needed to run the various contraptions/appliances) I should add that there is currently little or no price difference between a hugely efficient appliance or car and a crap one.
That (getting on for) 90% drop in emissions would have minimal to no negative impact on most of us and (with an eye to whatever piddly carbon budget we still have left) buy us some time to lay in the supply side infrastructure that we’d need achieve the necessary zero emissions from energy.
Throwing this last bit in just because it astounds me.
Globally, if just the highest emitting 10% of US citizens dropped their emissions to a European average (which is still really bloody high), global emissions would drop by 30%.
Solar – land and habitat loss, requires significant raw and rare materials mined (rather than just a one-off large concrete pour). Not suitable for all locations due to climate.
Well, the land and habitat loss is non-existent: Solar roadways and, of course, house roofs.
And, yes, solar does work in all climates. As long as the sun is up a solar panel will collect power. Of course, solar panels should be used in conjunction with other renewable generations such as wind and hydro.
Wind – shreds birds. Massive visual blot on the landscape and again not suitable for many locations.
Wind turbines do, occasionally, kill birds. So do cars. In fact, I’m pretty sure that cars actually kill more. And, no, they’re not a visual blot on the landscape at all – especially if you build them out to sea where they’ll also become an artificial reef helping sea life thrive. About the only place that wind can’t be directly placed is in cities.
Nuclear – promising but currently suffers from environmental issues due to waste problem. Expensive and vulnerable to technical problems.
Nuclear isn’t viable and it’s unsustainable.
If we want to go clean, hydro power has a significant role to play, at least in New Zealand.
We’ve pretty much tapped out all suitable hydro-generation in NZ. There’s really nowhere left to build hydro-dams in NZ.
Wind turbines do, occasionally, kill birds. So do cars. In fact, I’m pretty sure that cars actually kill more.
I was thinking about that the other day after seeing a sparrow bounce of my bonnet and hit the road behind me – if bird deaths are an argument against wind turbines, they’re an even bigger argument against road transport because there are millions of vehicles driving around. Strangely enough, I’ve never seen anyone argue motorised transport shouldn’t be used because birds, but it gets raised all the time for wind turbines.
“Strangely enough, I’ve never seen anyone argue motorised transport shouldn’t be used because birds, but it gets raised all the time for wind turbines.”
No, but if someone said hey I’ve got this great new technology that will allow us all individually to move around the place quickly, only it’s going to kill a few people, lots of birds and small mammals, create immediate air pollution that makes people sick and puts further strain on the health system, and be a major contributor to a global catastrophe, then who really would want cars?
Call it whatever kind of want you like Clump, then get out into the street and have a look at the reality around you.
As Orwell said, ‘Propaganda only works on those who are already inclined to accept it’.
Or do you seriously believe that if there was no advertising of cars, no one would perceive any benefit in one, and no one would want one?
That’s what market makers say to, you’ve got a lot in common you know.
It’s also conceivable with the rise of VR googles, humans will live in apartments 24/7 with no need to venture outside because drones will bring them stuff and take stuff away and so on.
If you think I’m kidding just put on a set of VR and report back here
Visual pollution is a major problem with wind turbines – they’re incredibly spatially inefficient.
I’m not defending fossil fuels, i’m promoting certain solutions over others. You are correct on decentralised solar though as being very important.
As for “powering down”, that’s just modern Ludditism (?). There are certainly efficiency gains to be had, but trying to reduce aggregate demand for energy in the world without mass population culls isn’t mathematically feasible (if it was even desirable).
Environmental protection is entirely consistent with a steady-state population but advancing technology and prosperity – done correctly.
Visual pollution is a major problem with wind turbines – they’re incredibly spatially inefficient.
The visual thing is subjective. Most people seemingly like the look of them.
Spatially they’re good as well. You design their layout to suit the prevailing winds and, on land, the land can still be used for other things such as farming.
At sea you keep the same layout, get better wind capture and the benefits of a massive breeding ground for fish.
“Visual pollution” doesn’t exist, other than as a matter of personal taste. If a person finds the sight of man-made objects in the landscape unbearable, they’re hardly going to be able to live anywhere but in a national park.
I have never felt wind turbines are a visual pollution. Overseas where there are many areas with wind farms, usually in desolate or moorland type areas I have always seen them as a sculptural piece of art, eerie and stark against the skyline. Surreal in their own way, but as people on this site are saying its beauty in the eyes of the beholder. I think we should have many more of them out there on our skylines – its progress in action and an obviously cleaner substitute than fossil fuels.
“If a person finds the sight of man-made objects in the landscape unbearable, they’re hardly going to be able to live anywhere but in a national park.”
That’s not what people are referring to when they talk about visual pollution, so null argument there I’m afraid.
If their beef isn’t with man-made objects per se, it’s just a matter of personal taste, for which the term “visual pollution” is inappropriate. I don’t like the sight of people wearing sports gear as street clothes, but it would be pretentious to call it “visual pollution.”
It’s not the sight of man-made objects per se, it’s the impact of some man-made objects on the appreciation of natural beauty. Not all man-made objects. It’s a valid argument in itself, I’m sure you can think of places not to put industrial structures because of the visual impact (amongst other reasons). Or maybe not. Maybe having massive industrial structures next in a national park or next to a beautiful piece of architecture wouldn’t bother bother you. Many humans aren’t like that though.
I quite like the look of wind turbines myself, relative to other industrial structures, but there’s plenty of places I think they are inappropriate to put on visual grounds alone.
NZ’s wind turbines tend to be in places where there are also farms visible and/or the original forest cover has been removed by humans. I don’t see why someone should believe that’s OK but a wind turbine isn’t.
Some people value iconic bare landscapes /shrug. I get that you don’t understand this, but you not getting it doesn’t mean it’s not valid. Myself, I’d prefer to see the hills of somewhere like Central Otago reforested even if that means letting wilding pines grow. But I also understand that the people that grew up there that have a direct relationship with the place experience the place differently.
It’s not a black and white thing, land, or appreciation of beauty. Nor is it rational in the way you want it to be. We can apply rationality over it, but that’s not always the best thing to do esp as rationales are rarely pure and simply represent a different set of values. For instance, there’s no way in hell I’ll support a wind farm on the Lammerlaws so that Aucklanders can wear t-shirts in winter or people can have heated towel rails.
I get that you don’t understand this, but you not getting it doesn’t mean it’s not valid.
It’s valid, but it’s also just an opinion, or more accurately a personal preference. I get that people feel strongly about it, and their feelings on any subject are just as valid as mine, but feeling strongly about something isn’t an argument and can’t conjure something called “visual pollution” into existence.
But “pollution” is the word that makes it a matter of opinion, not “visual”.
Nobody uses “pollution” to refer to harmless or positive stuff, be it light pollution, noise pollution, air pollution, or waterway pollution. It’s always a negative, and usually it’s a negative to the people mentioning it but not the people who discharged it. Nobody says “you’re polluting the stream with your fresh water” unless they fall for the “dihydrogen monoxide” joke.
Because it’s arbitrary. If someone is looking out the window of their house and thinks that the farms they can see are OK, and the road to their house is OK, and the power lines bringing electricity to their house are OK, and the fences they and all the other farmers put up are OK, and the non-native animals all over the place are OK, but those wind turbines in the distance, those are visual pollution, they don’t really have a workable definition of “visual pollution” beyond “I think it spoils the view.”
I think you are just arguing from your own personal preferences now. As I’ve already said, one can experience a man-made object as interfering with beauty, but not experience all man-made objects doing so.
You’re right, I am arguing from my own personal preferences. I’m just saying it would be nice if wind turbine opponents would admit they’re doing the same, instead of inventing something called “visual pollution” so they can pretend they aren’t.
As for “powering down”, that’s just modern Ludditism (?). There are certainly efficiency gains to be had, but trying to reduce aggregate demand for energy in the world without mass population culls isn’t mathematically feasible (if it was even desirable).
Environmental protection is entirely consistent with a steady-state population but advancing technology and prosperity – done correctly.
Powering down is in fact feasible, and is what will happen anyway if we don’t do it. Every civilisation that’s collapsed has gone through enforced power down. I think what you mean is that you don’t know how to feed the world without fossil fuels (renewables require fossil fuels). It’s ok, there are people who know how to do this.
I’m theoretically good with the steady state idea, although I tend to think that ship has sailed, but the upteching you are advocating isn’t in fact steady state. Running a high tech society requires fossil fuels and GHG emissions (care to share how to build NZ style-hydro without concrete for instance?).
I would be interested to hear your ideas on population and steady state too.
Consider the computing power in your phone – roughly equivalent to a supercomputer of the 60’s that sucked tremendous amounts of electricity. Now we have better functionality and ability to aid/perform tasks, sitting right there in your pocket.
In a resource sense, the old supercomputer physically used a lot more materials. If we keep growing the number of smartphones, obviously we will need to keep mining ad infinitum. But we can currently do a lot more with the same quantity materials than we used to.
But all the resources we have ever mined on earth are still here, they’ve just been converted into different forms. So the stuff from the ground is now in a building or in a landfill somewhere. Currently it’s hugely expensive to recycle, but cheap and abundant energy would solve all those issues along with many others. Soon we will be able to grow meat in a lab, and return farmland to forest.
At the core, it’s all just a physics problem.
TLDR is population level off + efficiency + tech + recycling could get us through without the need for unpalatable situations.
While I appreciate the efficiency argument, I’d point out two things. There is nothing even remotely sustainable about mobile phones in an ecological sense, so any argument around steady state via high tech would need to include how to make cell phones that were modular with replacement parts and that didn’t require destroying other parts of the planet. Which takes us neatly to social/political issues which efficiency has nothing to do with.
There is also the Jevon’s Paradox, which is also not solved by world views that propose high tech solutions to our predicament. Are you sure we are using the same quantity as in the 1960s, because I’m willing to bet we are using many many times more.
I agree with you about better use of resources e.g. mining landfills and more functional recycling, but where is the cheap and abundant energy going to come from?
How will we grow meat in a lab without fossil fuels (assuming it’s a good idea to base diets around, which I doubt)?
There is nothing even remotely sustainable about mobile phones in an ecological sense
Wrong.
The materials can be mined using sustainable methods. Recycling using renewable energy means that once mined they’re available essentially forever.
The only thing that makes them unsustainable is that we have a tendency to throw them in landfills rather than recycling. We need to change that and make recycling mandatory.
Are you sure we are using the same quantity as in the 1960s, because I’m willing to bet we are using many many times more.
We probably are but that’s not due to increasing tech but increasing population. If population had remained the same then the increase in tech level would have seen a decrease in resources used.
I agree with you about better use of resources e.g. mining landfills and more functional recycling, but where is the cheap and abundant energy going to come from?
Renewable generation. As has been pointed out, there’s enough solar energy striking the Earth to maintain our present energy use without affecting the environment.
How will we grow meat in a lab without fossil fuels
By the simple expedient of not using fossil fuels.
See. There you go again. I’m getting a very strong feeling you believe in perpetual motion machines.
It’s good to focus on economy but you have link it to ecology which no ones done except on the fringes orstudents interpreting the mass of data my and previous generations have collected but don’t fully understand
Renewable energy is incredibly cheap. In fact, it’s always been cheaper than fossil fuels because it doesn’t need continuous inputs of fuel. It just needs the sun burning and it’s going to be doing that for the next five billion years without any help from us.
The problem is we will still be exploiting stored energy whether stored in stars, fission material or fossil fuels. Exploiting these free energy produces background radiation that seeps out of a process we’ve already over used. The only thing for it is to scale back and let Mother Nature work her self out
“The materials can be mined using sustainable methods”
Rare materials are a finite resource. Yes, technically, if we stabilised the population and decided that only a percentage of them would get mobile phones at any one time, then we could produce them sustainably. But that’s not the situation we are in. It’s a literal impossibility to mine a small mineral resource sustainably at the scale we are talking about.
If you are intent on a somewhat aggressive argument (“wrong”), then I’ll just say that all your theoretical stuff fails when applied in the physical world. This is a classic example.
“We probably are but that’s not due to increasing tech but increasing population. If population had remained the same then the increase in tech level would have seen a decrease in resources used.”
Not just increasing population but increased demand per person for goods. We have far more electronics now per person than we used to.
Anyway, go ahead and explain how to build a wind farm without using FF or concrete. And by build, I mean in the real world, not the theoretical possibility.
Yep. Completely agree with that. That’s why I keep saying that we need to set standards for trade. Shoddy practices like those described would immediately prevent trade with that country.
BTW, we do have sources of tungsten in NZ along with all of the other rare earths (which aren’t actually rare BTW).
We have far more electronics now per person than we used to.
Yes we do but each device uses far less resources than they used to and they achieve far more. A single 1960s mainframe would probably use more resources than several thousand PCs and yet each single PC far outstrips the capabilities of that mainframe.
Now think about what that would mean if we’d stabilised the population at the three billion of 1960.
Just out of curiosity weka, what bits of modern industrial society do you think can’t do without fossil fuels?
Broadly, fossil fuels are either burned for direct process heat, or burned in engines for mechanical power. Renewable electricity can easily substitute for both of those. Powering large ships is going to be difficult with renewables, but could go zero-carbon with nukes. Long-haul aviation needs liquid fuels, which could be biofuels.
1. Wind farms. Please show me how they can be built, in the foreseeable future using zero fossil fuels. You’ll need to include all materials (including mining, transport and processing of materials), as well as all the infrastructure involved in that e.g. the machines used to mine the minerals, the factories that those machines are made in, the materials those factories are made from etc. I get that that is theoretically possible at an abstract level, so I’m asking you to explain how it would work in the work over the next period of time.
2. long haul aviation fuels replaced with biofuels. Where are they going to come from?
weka, it would take weeks to go through every single process, identify which energy input came from fossil fuels and show how it could change to electricity. The question you’ve asked is so general it’s like asking to prove a negative.
But as far as I know, every single step of making a wind turbine could be powered by electricity. For instance, steel-making uses coal both for heat, and to reduce the iron oxide. Coz coal is cheap. But it can be done entirely electrolytically.
Every mining dump truck, front-end loader that currently runs on diesel could run on electricity. Whether by batteries, overhead wires, or trailing cables. It’s just cheaper and more convenient to use fossil fuels. Oh, and those massive german coal mining machine that can scoop up the volume of an olympic swimming pool in a few minutes? Electrically powered.
The crushers and mills for pulverising materials that go into concrete often are already electric. The heat needed for the calcination of cement is usually fossil now (coz it’s cheaper) but can easily be swapped to electricity.
There’s three bits. If you’ve got a specific process you don’t understand how to convert, ask and I’ll help you.
Biofuels – well plenty of agricultural production now goes to really dumb bio-ethanol. It wouldn’t be hard to get smarter about that to make aviation fuel.
I think you misunderstand me Andre. I accept that it’s possible technically. I’m saying that once you try and do it in the real world, it looks really different. This stuff was hashed out by the Peak Oil crowd a decade ago, and that included industry people and engineers etc.
weka, it would take weeks to go through every single process, identify which energy input came from fossil fuels and show how it could change to electricity. The question you’ve asked is so general it’s like asking to prove a negative.
It’s not a general question, it’s specific. People who claim that because it’s technically feasible it must be literally possible at the applied level are the ones talking in generalities. I’m asking you to break it down and show how that could happen given the various limitations of the known physical world. You don’t have to go into every little detail but if you can’t do a cradle to grave analysis please explain what makes you think it’s possible in reality.
Biofuels – well plenty of agricultural production now goes to really dumb bio-ethanol. It wouldn’t be hard to get smarter about that to make aviation fuel.
Likewise with this. It sounds reasonable right? But I’d like to see that broken down into some broad figures on how much fuel is needed per flight, and how much land is needed to grow that fuel, and then how many non-ff resources are needed to process/transport it etc. You’re talking theoretically, I’m asking for some evidence that it would work in practice.
You could do it just for NZ. For the sake of argument, take the number of international flights and cut it in half as our responsibility to grow and process the fuel for it. There will be an interesting calculation there along the lines of how many flights we do per year compared to how long it takes to grow and process each crop.
It works really easily in real time. As the price of fossil fuels go up relative to electricity, more and more processes become cheaper to do electrically than with fossil fuels.
When the price of oil went over $100/barrel I’m aware of several manufacturers went on quick conversion programmes to electric. Only one of which actually completed the conversion before the oil price went back down. The others abandoned their projects, and still run on fossil fuels now.
“It works really easily in real time. As the price of fossil fuels go up relative to electricity, more and more processes become cheaper to do electrically than with fossil fuels.”
That’s the theory, which has been demonstrated on a small scale. You are asserting that it can be done on the whole planet, but there’s nothing you’ve said that I find convincing.
When the price of oil went over $100/barrel I’m aware of several manufacturers went on quick conversion programmes to electric. Only one of which actually completed the conversion before the oil price went back down. The others abandoned their projects, and still run on fossil fuels now.
Right, but they still relied heavily and instrinsicly on ff-based tech. They had all that infrastructure, supply lines etc behind the conversion that was mined, manufactured and run on ff.
You’ve also now neatly highlighted the economic (and likewise political) realities, which I’m actually happy to leave out of the argument for now, because even with the best will in the world I’m not sure what you are suggesting is possible.
That’s the theory, which has been demonstrated on a small scale. You are asserting that it can be done on the whole planet, but there’s nothing you’ve said that I find convincing.
It can be done on the whole planet.
The problem is that you’re confusing the need for fossil fuels during the change over period as an ongoing need for fossil fuels for a high-tech economy.
Yes, we’ll continue using fossil fuels until the change over is done and then we won’t because they’re not needed.
The problem is that you’re confusing the need for fossil fuels during the change over period as an ongoing need for fossil fuels for a high-tech economy.
No, I’m not Draco, which you would know if you engaged in conversation instead of making assumptions and telling me I’m wrong. In this conversation I am talking about how to get from where we are now to fully renewables with the current population and standards of living. Neither you or Andre have done anything other than present some theory. Both of you are side stepping the pragmatics of how it could be done.
Long-haul aviation needs liquid fuels, which could be biofuels.
Theoretically could, yes.And you could argue back and forth on the logistics. But since we need to have zero emissions from energy, it ain’t an option (not beyond the very, very short term anyway). And that zero carbon necessity means that no bio-fuel can be used anywhere for energy purposes – probably including my much beloved wood burning stove
🙁
You want air travel there are two options I’m aware of.
1. Hydrogen fueled aircraft (the prototypes were built in the 80s by the Russians – they retrofitted ‘normal’ aircraft)
Dunno what graphene is – never heard of it. Bottom line is that by around 2030 -2040, anything with carbon emissions is a ‘no go’ if we want even the slimmest chance of ducking 2 degrees.
“probably including my much beloved wood burning stove”
Maybe not (although we need to transition to high efficient burners),
while new plantations managed for timber and firewood have no net carbon dioxide emissions and actually take 0.17kg of CO2 out of the atmosphere for every kWhr of heat produced.
His comparisons initially are with coal-fired electricity and gas (wood is a no brainer), but he appears to be saying that irrespective of comparisons with other forms of energy for heating, firewood has negative emissions if managed properly. I’ve heard Holmgren say that firewood is the only sustainable energy source on the planet (I assume because of it’s ability to sequester more than it emits).
Ae. It’s nano material. It’s just one possible step in along process required to recycle carbon. The thing is. We’ll have to wait for a Thomas Edison, JP Morgan type relation ship to emerge.
Liquid fuels around 45MJ/kg, including tanks. Hydrogen best figure I’ve seen including tanks is 11 MJ/kg. Hydrogen and liquid fuel have about the same efficiency converting chemical energy into mechanical energy. The takeoff weight of a long haul aircraft going for maximum range is around 50% fuel. I just don’t see how that can possibly add up to hydrogen being viable for long haul aviation.
Let alone the other problems with hydrogen, ie where do you get it from and it’s an extremely difficult and dangerous fuel.
Graphene has potential as a next next generation high strength material. You may have heard of carbon nanotubes – they’re essentially sheets of graphene rolled up into a cylinder to make a single layer or multi-layer tube.
Carbon fibre is more or less lots of graphene mushed together to form a really long log (at the micro scale), with the number and type of defects in the structure determining the grade (strength and modulus) of the fibre.
We experienced the same problems with silicon 50 years ago. We solved all that by pumping money into it. We can do the same with graphene. So time isn’t so much an inhibitor
86.%of worlds energy use was supplied by oil,coal and gas (2006)…..while the theory of replacing the likes of earthmoving equipment et al with electric versions sounds feasible (small scale), to replace energy use without a reduction in production would require an almost 8 fold increase (at least) in electricity production and distribution worldwide……and in an impossibly short timeframe.
That fails to explain why we need fossil fuels for these things.
Yes, we’re presently using fossil fuels to supply energy but we don’t need to. This makes weka’s and your assertion that we need fossil fuels for both a high tech economy and renewables wrong.
don’t be a dickhead….30 years to change over?right, have you any concept of what is involved in an 8 fold increase in electricity generation and distribution? (we won’t worry about any of the other challenges involved )…i suggest not.
there is one way you can hold on to your precious western lifestyle….reduce the worlds population by 86%(or so)
“These tests show that you’re a LIAR!”
Jeremy Kyle in New Zealand, Monday 9 January 2017
Part One of Two
We join the show near the end of the first segment. Host JEREMY KYLE stands centrestage, holding a large white envelope. To his right are seated HELEN CLARK and HEATHER SIMPSON, to his left sits the disgraced ex-Labour MP SHANE JONES. Hovering close by, ever vigilant, are two burly, black-clad security men….
JEREMY KYLE: All right, now just one more time, let’s get this quite clear: you say you did nothing in that hotel room except work on your Cabinet papers? [He turns to the audience and smirks disdainfully]
AUDIENCE: Ha ha ha!
SHANE JONES: Absolutely.
AUDIENCE: Ha ha ha ha ha!… BULLSH*T!…. He’s the Minister for Porn!…The only papers he was working through was tissue papers!…. Ha ha ha ha ha!
JEREMY KYLE:[waiting for the wave of catcalling and derisive laughter to subside] Well, let’s see what the lie detector tests say. …
[tears open envelope, scans contents, pauses several seconds for effect]….
JEREMY KYLE: These tests show that you’re a LIAR! You weren’t attending to cabinet papers in that hotel room, you were watching PORN!
SHANE JONES: Bugger the lie detector machines! They’re obviously faulty.
AUDIENCE: Ha ha ha ha ha! Not as faulty as the Labour Party candidate selection process!
JEREMY KYLE: These good citizens will be happy, I’m sure, to know that their hard-earned TAXES are going on rental copies of Debbie Does Dallas!
SHANE JONES: Piss off! It wasn’t Debbie Does Dallas, it was Vase de Noces.
….Awkward pause….
JEREMY KYLE: You disGUST me! Get off my show, NOW!
JONES skulks off, clutching the lie detector results slip…
WAGS FROM CROWD: He’s fit only for the ACT cult now!…. He’s got the situation FIRMLY in hand! …. Ha ha ha ha ha! …. Off to the National Party, Jones—that’s where all the wankers go!…. More huzzas, general hubbub, raucous laughter….
HELEN CLARK:[through gritted teeth] I knew it!
HEATHER SIMPSON:[bitterly, to Clark] I TOLD you you should NEVER have made that clown a cabinet minister in the FIRST place, for pity’s sake.
HELEN CLARK:[angrily rising from seat and advancing on SIMPSON] Don’t you DARE criticize my man-management! I ran a tight ship for NINE glorious years.
The security men step swiftly between SIMPSON and CLARK…
JEREMY KYLE: Now, now, settle down ladies. This is the Jeremy Kyle Show, not Jerry Springer! Maybe we’ll have you back on the show soon to discuss your legacy, Helen! For now, you go THAT way, and YOU—[pointing to SIMPSON]—go THAT way.
Exeunt CLARK and SIMPSON
JEREMY KYLE: And the best of luck to them. Coming up after the break: this man [close-up of SWORDFISH waiting nervously in green room] says that the people on New Zealand’s leading blog need to COOL IT during this election year and STOP all the SQUABBLING!
Cameras pan over nervous Standardistas waiting to make their entrance: marty mars, weka, Psycho Milt, Sasha and Morrissey.
JEREMY KYLE: And the best of luck to them. Coming up after the break: this man [close-up of SWORDFISH waiting nervously in green room] says that the people on New Zealand’s leading blog need to COOL IT during this election year and STOP all the SQUABBLING!
“Nervously” ???, Mozza, “Nervously” ??? … Never !!! I’ve always been a laid back sort of a Geeza, cool as a cucumber, me. I’d be sitting in the Green Room scheming up ways to subvert the programme by telling a few home truths that highlight Kyle’s remarkably ugly manipulative streak.
Looking forward to the next instalment.
By outrageous coincidence, my 16 year old Nephew (living in the UK) is a massive JEREMY KYLE fan (in common, no doubt, with most English 16 year old lads). His parents have spent a few years trying to wean him off the show (to no noticeable effect).
Shhh better not let this news get to the public, wonder if the Herald or Stuff will bother mentioning it. (The Herald had a link to the story, click on the link and it is a 404 page not found)
“Figures obtained by the Taxpayers’ Union under the Official Information Act show that to date Kiwi taxpayers have forked out $7.7 million to the Clinton Foundation’s “Health Access Initiative” with $2.5 million and $3 million earmarked for 2017 and 2018 respectively.”
This pisses me off no end, dodgy Clinton foundation and our government decides that taxpayers are giving millions of dollars to it.
What kind of dumb arse explanation will the outgoing government provide for this ‘donation’? Especially with all the scandal around the Clinton Foundation to start with. FFS.
Here’s an idea, how about using NZ tax payer money for NZer’s.
If I understand this correctly, you’re endorsing a National Party front organisation whose press release includes the line “…New Zealand’s faux pas in co-sponsoring the UN Security Council resolution condemning Israel on Christmas Eve…” and suggesting that the NZ government stop all foreign aid (“NZ tax payer money for NZer’s”). Is that really what you wanted to say?
Do some independent thinking, Cinny.
1) The Taxpayers Union is a front for ACT-ites.
2) Why do you assume that everything with the name “Clinton”on it is “dirty”? Who fed you that line? (Clue, he likes to blow his own trumpet.)
3) Are you seriously saying that NZ shouldn’t spend any money on foreign aid? Because, if you are, that’s a despicable attitude.
Check out the posting, links and comments on just put up:
That money should have gone into our own foreign relief aid efforts in the Pacific, not into an attempt to curry favour with the next Clinton Administration.
I tried forwarding some helpful advice to democrat_propaganda_unit@wetdream.org, but got the autoreply “morrissey isn’t in right now, but when he gets close to planet earth he’ll get back to you with some barely-legible ranting”.
He’s entertaining McFlock. He knows he’s exaggerating but that’s part of the fun… you take it into consideration. My Dad was the same. We knew to halve everything he said but he was also entertaining in the process.
3) Are you seriously saying that NZ shouldn’t spend any money on foreign aid?
The question that I always come up with is: Why do these countries need aid?
At no point should a country ever need aid or foreign investment. They have their own resources, their own people, and thus can create their own money to utilise those resources creating their own economy.
I suspect that the real problem that needs to be addressed is the colonisation of these countries by foreign bankers and capitalists.
1. Doesn’t really matter to me whom the taxpayers union is aligned to, but that’s interesting that you say it’s a front for ACTites. Will def do some more reading/research.
2. Nope no one fed me that line. Gosh certainly not Agent Orange. I do take on board much info, but do like to come to my own conclusions, and am happy to change my mind if more info comes to light. Only a stubborn fool would be stuck in one mindset, or gather info from an echo chamber or limited sources/sites.
3. Foreign aid is fine by me, as long as it is used for those that need it. And with our country in so much debt, recovering from earthquakes, as well as making sure we have reserves to help any in the pacific islands should they have another disaster (because that is important IMHO), it makes me think that such a generous donation to that particular organisation is in bad taste.
Just thought I’d mention I’m a supporter of increasing our refugee quota.
I wonder what other ‘donations’ there are and to whom?
This appears to have only come to light via an OIA, so what else is happening that they would rather us not know about?
I mean if it was a great organisation, wouldn’t the government be proud to donate money to it? Wouldn’t the public feel proud to know they were helping people whom were suffering more than they are? So wouldn’t they be making it
a publicity press opportunity. And that’s a bit of a crux for me, it appears to be all a bit slim shady.
Been a primo day here, time for me to do some reading 😀
If it’s okay for the government to give public money that was earmarked for ‘Foreign Aid’ to the Clinton Foundation (a private concern), then presumably it’s okay to give that same money to other private concerns like (oh – I dunno) The Bill Gate’s Foundation, The George Soros Foundation, the Ford Foundation.. the White Helmets…
I’m no statist, but if we’re going to throw crumbs and bones from our banquet by way of foreign aid monies, I’d fully expect the public purse to fund orgs and programmes that had high degrees of public oversight…such as other government bodies. ..or to recognised aid agencies (eg Oxfam) for specific projects/programmes.
The donations were indeed for specific projects, the CHAI is a recognised agency, and it has admin costs probably better than anything the government does directly.
food environment
10 Jan 2017
Seeking unusual vege varieties
From Summer Days with Jesse Mulligan, 11:25 am on 10 January 2017
Tim Martin is an ecologist who in his spare time cultivates a magnificent fruit and vege garden at his Mt Wellington home in Auckland.
He tries to experiment every year with new varieties, some of which become staples, he says.
Fuji apples as an espalier on boundary fence
Leeks are a winter staple in Tim’s garden
Courgettes
Beans and capsicum
All of Tim’s swiss chard (silverbeet) is produced by letting them grow wherever they self-seed.
Cucumber grown as a groundcover
climbing beans, sunflowers, pumpkin and corn in garden alongside house
Heather potatoes – which Tim says have an amazing texture that semi-caramelises in the middle
Tomato plants
The summer tomato glut
Tomatoes grown as groundcover under clothes-line
Mesclun for all year round salads
The loaded lemon tree
“One of my favourites is the tomatillo. It’s a close relative of the Cape gooseberry, it’s in that tomato family, it’s a very easy way of growing a tomato equivalent, it’s disease resistant there’s no training or pruning they just form a bush.”
Tomatillos are used in Mexican to make salsa and he says they can also be chargrilled.
Tim grows them from seed in August/September and plants out in November.
Having a problem with stringy beans? Try an old New Zealand heritage variety Tim says.
“One of my all-time favourites is an old heritage variety The Dalmation bean, it’s a climbing bean and if you go away during your summer holidays … you won’t come back to inedible beans – even if they grow full size, they’re stringless and tender.”
He suggests potato onions as a lazy way of growing onions, which is where you plant an onion, instead of an onion seed, and that onion turns into 10 or 12 small onions, much in the same way as garlic or shallots.
Other options he suggests are water spinach (or Kang Kong) and a variety of tomato called green sausage which he says you can leave alone and it will grow like a carpet.
For future reference, can you please link to the RNZ page, not the audio? RNZ are not using permanent URLs for their audio, but instead audio IDs that link to a person’s history, so your link went to the last audio I listened to. If you link to the page instead (with the details of the content), then that will be a permanent link and the same for everyone. That page will also give the various options for listening e.g. stream or download, rather than just the stream which isn’t suitable for everyone. Cheers.
OK I’ll try weka but I can’t always get to a place where I can do what I want to do – get message that I can’t be transferred for some bloody reason. I am sick of it being so difficult. So sometimes if I can’t get the right thing I will just have to put what I can get. I have to limit my time on the computer, but like to pass interesting stuff on. But have to keep a kitchen timer beside me – so old-fashioned! And proud of it. I don’t want to be completely controlled by machines and web designers thinking up new ways to make me feel inadequate and out of touch. Bah,
Why RNZ couldn’t give all the previous options with a pretty format when they updated their site I don’t know. I think a lot of these programming types wouldn’t know their A from their E and simply work from the latest instruction book as to what is ‘best practice’ until the next disruption occurs! Strike it also on Trademe, where for no apparent customer advantage something will change and a useful option vanish.
Jordy-boy Williams of Taxpayers Union fame is having a tantrum after discovering the NZ Govt. has donated 7.7 million dollars of “tax payers money” to the Clinton Foundation. This is a charitable organisation which apparently has been highly praised by philanthropy experts:
From Wikipedia:
Through 2016 the foundation had raised an estimated $2 billion from U.S. corporations, foreign governments and corporations, political donors, and various other groups and individuals. The acceptance of funds from wealthy donors has been a source of controversy. The foundation “has won accolades from philanthropy experts and has drawn bipartisan support”.
But what is upsetting Jordy-boy most is the fact that Donny-boy Trump won’t like it one little bit and we mustn’t upset the orange fella. How dare the NZ govt. support a charity set up to provide humane assistance to the disadvantaged wherever and whoever they may be!
This is my paraphrasing of the Herald item because guess what: the highlighted online news clip has suddenly become “not available“.
Psychological projection – Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
Psychological projection is a theory in psychology in which humans defend themselves against their own unconscious impulses or qualities (both positive and negative) by denying their existence in themselves while attributing them to others.
A heckler at a UK Brexit meeting told an economy professor that his GDP figures were not for her economy. And this article shows why she is correct.
If economists tout GDP as signs of a healthy strong economy, but many people around the country (whether UK or NZ) are not getting the benefits, then there’s something wrong with the way economists are measuring the strength of an economy:
Putting together official figures and the Bank of England’s own calculations, it looked at regional GDP per head from the capital up to Scotland. And it showed that only two regions of the total 12 were actually richer than they were before the credit crunch. Those two regions were London and the south-east. Nearly everywhere else was poorer than in 2007 – sometimes, as in Northern Ireland, a lot poorer.
… On statistical aggregates the UK is enjoying a recovery. But in reality this has been a recovery for owner-occupiers in London and the south-east. It has locked out those without big assets, such as the young, and those renting in the capital. It has penalised the poor. And it has impoverished those who have been forced on to zero hours or bogus self-employment.
…
the problem with economists … [is] that by concentrating on aggregates, they insist it’s sunny outside, when it’s T-shirt weather for a few in central London and the rest of the country is getting soaked.
It’s all about how the statistics are used by economists…. or alternatively, they could just get out and about and see what the reality is for diverse people on the ground.
As Glenn Greenwald tweeted, whatever the truth of the weakly verified reports from the US intelligence agencies, there’s now open warfare between the intelligence services and Trump.
I have no doubt that both the Russia and US intelligence services have sophisticated surveillance and black ops capabilities. I have no way of knowing exactly what is going on in this covert warfare.
Two terms of Donald, and then two terms from one of the kids, as Mrs Melania is foreign born and not eligible, though Donald could get that changed. There are five kids, so why not 48 years coming up Trumps? 🙂
I’m rather confident that document is fake. I’m no Trump fan but the story on the report says something like it’s from a former Brit Spy – D I doesn’t say who he worked for but I guess MI6.
After looking over the docs, it’s nothing like any Intel Report I’ve even seen. And I’ve seen a written a few.
I don’t have time to pull it to bits, but will if enough people want it, but here’s my brief summary:
The document isn’t laid out anything like a Intel Report, or even a gist report. So the format is the main thing that leads me to believe it’s fake.
Now, what would this guy know I hear you ask… Well as our Intelligence services are based on MI6 MI6 and most other police or military. Our agencies follow very similar protocols and procedures… Including the way Intel reports, Gist reports etc are written. So NZ Intel reports are based in format / layout on the UK Intel Reports.
This doc looks nothing like a genuine Intel report written by a person who should know what one not only looks like, but how it should be formatted.
So, the format is just wrong, although it looks like they (the writers tried however) Them comes the content. It’s not written in a way that someone trained to write these reports would do. It’s shit, really. Like I said. I’m willing to go through it bit by bit and show you the mistakes, incorrect use of terms, lack of using real terms. Making comments wrapped in ()
So, I don’t think this is a silver bullet. It’s fake, obviously written by people who knew enough to put the content together, and leak it. I’m not going to answer who I think it is. But the way things are sharpening up, this won’t be the last one of these.
Again, if people want a full synopsis of the leaked report and why I think it’s fake, just ask and I’ll go through it bit by bit.
So if the 35 pages is just something made up by a fantasist, what are the intel agencies using as a basis for their announcement? Or have the intel agencies lost the plot so badly one will publicly announce more investigations into one candidate 10 days before the election (against protocol with apparently no reasonable evidence and very dubious legal grounds), then this, 10 days before the inauguration of the other one, (who was arguably assisted in victory by the previous dodgy announcement).
Rail workers call out Transport Minister’s hypocrisy over electric vehicles
The union representing working people in New Zealand’s railways says Transport Minister Simon Bridges is acting like a hypocrite for touting the benefits of electric cars while allowing KiwiRail to ditch electric locomotives.
“There’s some incredible irony in this. While Bridges is ditching his diesel vehicle for an electric one, he’s overseeing KiwiRail’s move from electric locomotives to diesel ones,” said Rail and Maritime Transport Union (RMTU) General Secretary Wayne Butson.
In December KiwiRail confirmed that it would not upgrade its electric fleet on the North Island Main Trunk Line, instead opting to downgrade to Chinese-made diesel locomotives.
“If Bridges is sold on the benefit of electric vehicles why isn’t he sold on the benefits of electric locomotives?”
“All the arguments that apply to electric cars apply to electric locomotives. They’re cheaper and better for the planet in the long run. Investing in electric locomotives would even create local jobs,” said Butson.
RMTU modelling shows that KiwiRail’s electric fleet saves 8 million litres in fuel each year and the price of upkeep is only $1.13 per km, but the Chinese-made diesel locomotives will guzzle the gas the electric fleet saves and the likely cost of upkeep will be $2.27 per km.
Attention Micky-savage ,back in the 1970s the late Bob Reece of Hamilton who you may remember told me that the LP had patented the silver fern badge . So if this is the case how is it that that the Nat’s
are often seen wearing what looks very much like our silver fern membership badge .?
Whoops: /refining-that-dog-whistle/
“Bill English has used a proposal for timing of his Waitangi speech to wrongly claim that he is being silenced. And most of the media bought it.”
Full of incendiary anti-Russian rhetoric and selective morality,
Hopey-Changey’s last hurrah is a model of hypocrisy and dishonesty.
Chicago, Tuesday 10 December (U.S. time)
I’ve just heard the man that Jim Mora calls “the greatest orator of our time” quoting Atticus Finch—the “walk a mile in someone’s shoes” quote from To Kill A Mockingbird. Incredibly, he doesn’t seem to realize that Atticus Finch could give Jeff Sessions a run for his money when it comes to bigotry. [1]
Hopey-Changey’s brain-dead cheer squad didn’t seem to mind, though. These zombies even cheered when he boasted about how he’s “halved our dependence on foreign oil”—forgetting that he’s presided over a stratospheric increase in fracking, and has been a stubborn advocate of expanding nuclear energy production.
He’s just spoken of “violent fanatics who claim to speak for Islam”, but said nothing about violent fanatics who claim to speak for Judaism, or Christianity. [2] Nor did he mention that for the last six years the United States has been supporting, in Syria, the most violent and fanatical of all the violent fanatics who claim to speak for Islam.
He’s also just praised the “effectiveness of our law enforcement agencies”, as though all those police executions of unarmed black children across the United States had never happened. The crowd, which no doubt is largely comprised of self-described “liberals”, cheered even louder after that lie.
Morrissey, have a look at the reply I gave you about Atticus Finch over in the other line where you posted this comment. Better still, read To Kill a Mockingbird (which is not the same book as Go Set a Watchman – hint, they have different titles – and does not feature the same character as the one who’s discussed in your link – that’s about a different book – an early draft that was abandoned and never intended for publication).
But I apologize. I should obviously have said “I have the IMPRESSION you are actively whitewashing the brutality of Assad’s regime and implying that anyone who thinks he’s a genocidal monter is uninformed and brainwashed.” I’ll be more careful in future.
“I have the IMPRESSION you are actively whitewashing the brutality of Assad’s regime and implying that anyone who thinks he’s a genocidal mon[s]ter is uninformed and brainwashed”
Thanks Wainwright. That turns out to have been a useful exercise. A nice little summary and I share your impression.
IMO, you’ve just done something quite similar to what Wainwright was accused of which led to this summary – stating as a fact what what is actually your opinion about how I think.
I certainly do share Wainwright’s impression. I interpreted Bill’s comments in a similar way to Wainwright at the time they were made, and have not seen anything since that has changed my mind.
Sorry Miravox, I just fired it off without thinking. I know you’re not a liar. I was thoughtless and irresponsible to write it, and there’s no excuse.
While you’re there, Mickey, I’ve just had two messages for the “Obama’s last Speech” adulation thread bounced. I did not swear or engage in the sort of ad hom. nonsense that I unleashed on poor old Miravox.
So why am I being bounced? I presume you are not the one doing it.
[Nothing in the pending comments list. Will check – MS]
[Nothing in the pending comments list. Will check – MS]
Thanks Bill. This feels really sinister. I posed four serious questions to Sacha, asking her to defend her contention that old Hopey Changey had made an “inspiring” speech in Chicago.
Looks like either she’s not up to the challenge of responding or someone is stomping on our right to politely and intelligently dissent.
[there were 2 comments in the Trash, I’ve released them now. Nothing nefarious, it happens randomly, to many of us, including authors. You’ve been here long enough to know this Morrissey, so stop with the conspiracy stuff please – weka]
All my comments got put into pending because Bill didn’t like what I said. Do I get to imply there’s a dark conspiracy of Standard authors suppressing the truth too? 🙄
[all your comments got put into Pending because you accused an author of something they didn’t do. That’s premoderation and it’s one of the tools at a moderator’s disposal to make moderating easier and to teach commenters where the boundaries. Can you please reread the Policy, because it states clearly that it’s not ok to attack authors. Stop and think about it. If we moderated based on dislike, between the groups of us most comments would disappear. While we are all broadly on the left, there is a large range of views and opinions held by authors who moderate.
Sometimes people’s comments go into moderation randomly, but it’s amazing to me how many people assume something nefarious is going on despite it regularly being pointed out that this happens. I’m now putting you back in premoderation until I can see you’ve acknowledged this comment – weka]
Yes weka, I know. That was my point. Sometimes comments go into moderation. Morrisey’s the one trying to paint himself as the Edward Snowden of the Standard.
I already apologised for it. I guess I’ll do it again. Bill moderated me for making a direct statement instead of making it clear I was stating an opinion that my impression is he obfuscates criticism of Assad’s regime. He also doesn’t “like” my opinion but has not moderated me for it. Message received.
[You still don’t get it, offer up half arsed ‘apologies’ and (I noticed way after the fact) took the opportunity to launch some smart arsed/half arsed attack on an Open Mike after someone else had prematurely released you from your first stint in pre-mod. Anyway…] – Bill
[I wasn’t asking you to apologise Wainwright, I wanted to know if you would acknowledge why you were moderated. It might not seem important to you, but there is a line around criticising moderators and you stepped over it. I thought you did well to back up why you said what you did originally but still apologise, I just wanted to be sure you understood where the line is. Suffice to say that moderator patience is wearing thin at the moment, so how about making our job easier? Out of premod now – weka]
“As good as this?” What part did you like best?—The incendiary and hypocritical goading of Russia? The praising of U.S. “law enforcement” officers? The blather about “violent fanatics” that he has armed and diplomatically supported in Syria since 2011?
Your comment, analysis-free as it is, shows nothing more than cultural cringe and an alarming susceptibility to soaring bloviation.
The thing is, Morrissey, a lot of other people actually get the concept that a president or prime minister represents everybody in their country, that not all of those people share Morrissey’s opinions, and that the president/pm must nevertheless address his speeches to all of them. Perhaps if you write to him he’ll write you a speech that’s carefully tailored to your own opinions, but I wouldn’t get your hopes up.
Morrissey has a North Shore cliff with a favourite spot that he gets to declaim in the evening to all the fallen gods and prepare great idealistic worlds for himself to live in. If only his genius were understood.
…and that the president/pm must nevertheless address his speeches to all of them.
Imagine if instead of embarking on another anti-Russian rant like he did, and canting about “values” and heaping praise, without any discernible irony, on American “law enforcement”, Obama had actually DONE something meaningful, like dropping all charges against Edward Snowden, and releasing—immediately, with compensation—Chelsea Manning.
A misanthrope is someone with a generalised loathing of humankind. I actually feel quite positive about most people, and am charitable towards most, including my opponents—the ones who aren’t unbearably hostile, that is. I do loathe nearly all politicians, however, and their servants, whether they are paid to tell lies in the diplomatic corps [1] or paid to tell lies in the de facto propaganda corps. [2]
Obama’s handlers presented him as a blank slate, in other words you can write what ever you like. There are a few slogans, hope/unity/change, now write down what ever you like in between. It does arouse enthusiasm and we can understand why. More than 80% of the population thinks America and the world are going the wrong way. For most people in the US in the last 40 years it’s been a hard hard battle you can’t underestimate. And it’s a rich country which isn’t like living in Southern Africa but real wages declined for 40 years. There’s growth but it’s being hoarded by very few pockets. Health care/Benefits/wages have declined, this isn’t the work of a Nobel peace prize winner, this is the work of a charlatan. There isn’t anything to show for it other than keeping subsidising private inefficiencies.
There is tremendous dissatisfaction with institutions and that’s generalised right across the world. There’s a lot of talk about labour low poll ratings but parliament poll ratings is lower. In fact all institutions are not trusted and disliked. There is a sense everything is going wrong. So when you say hope/unity/change and talk eloquently and so on. Herd it all a million times
‘Keep Kansas in mind this year when our politicians begin to try to sell the notion that tax cuts are a responsible form of economic management. They’re not. They’re a bag of sweets, a bribe to win your vote. Beyond the sugar hit, they’ll do nothing to fix the problems facing the country, and will also do nothing to make this country safer or more prosperous for your kids.”
good advice ……we don’t need any more type2 diabetes.
Brad Scott, GNS Science VolcanologistThis post was originally published by GeoNet.Following the 9 December devastating eruption at Whakaari/White Island we have put together some information about the island. New Zealand’s most active volcano Whakaari/White Island is currently New Zealand’s most active volcano, it has been since an eruptive episode ...
The Justice Committee has reported back on its Inquiry into the 2017 General Election and 2016 Local Elections, with a host of recommendations about how to improve our electoral systems. Some of their recommendations are already incorporate din the Electoral Amendment Bill currently before Parliament, but there's also a recommendation ...
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This weekend was Labour's 103rd Party Conference! We welcomed over 500 of our Labour whānau in red to Whanganui, where we reflected on the last two years in Government, and looked ahead to 2020 and beyond. We know the long-term challenges facing New Zealand won't be tackled overnight, but we're making ...
Regional Economic Development Minister Shane Jones announced that the Provincial Growth Fund will invest $9.6 million to seal the final unsealed section of State Highway 43 from Stratford to Taumarunui. The Minister said sealing the 12-kilometre gravel section of the highway – also called the “Forgotten World Highway” - through ...
Former Finance Minister and former chair of the Tax Working Group, Sir Michael Cullen, has voiced his support for New Zealand First’s decision to oppose the planned increase in tobacco excise tax. In an interview with The Weekend Collective, he said that increasing the price was no longer effective in ...
Māori are natural storytellers. On the marae we use stories to tell our history, to teach the next generation life lessons and to let people know, in our most creative of ways, who we are and where we have come from. ...
Rt Hon Winston Peters, New Zealand First Leader New Zealand First has invoked the ‘Agree to Disagree’ provisions of the Coalition Agreement because it cannot support the announced 11.46 percent increase in the tobacco excise from 1 January 2020. “Studies show that the automatic tobacco excise increases are having less effect ...
Taupō-based company Geo40 has made a breakthrough in extracting near battery-grade lithium from geothermal fluid which its says could be a gamechanger. Its chief executive John Worth said the earth mineral was highly prized, with battery-grade lithium selling for US$10,000 (NZ$15,600) a tonne. Geo40 was founded in 2010 to find ...
Crown research institute AgResearch Ltd, as part of its Future Footprint plan, had intended to relocate top scientists and support staff — particularly those focused on sheep genetics and genomics — from Invermay to Lincoln. However, those plans seem to have been shelved at the request of the Coalition Government. ...
Ten engineering firms in Southland are receiving a total of $2.13 million in Provincial Growth Fund funding to lift productivity and create new jobs. Regional Economic Development Minister Shane Jones announced in Invercargill that the 10 engineering and manufacturing firms would receive funding to assist them with buying equipment that ...
The number of new residents to New Zealand is the lowest it has been in nearly two decades and it has earned the ire of the immigration industry. The industry alleges that 'Trump-style extreme vetting' is being put in place aimed at keeping a lid on immigration numbers. June Ranson, ...
The Royal New Zealand Air Force is one step closer to modernising its fleet after the United States State Department recently approved the sale of five new C-130J Hercules aircraft to New Zealand. Arms manufacturer Lockheed Martin, in Fort Worth, Texas, will provide the aircraft, but as a "foreign military ...
Forestry Minister Shane Jones wants to create a log barging facility at Hicks Bay and turn the area into a Special Economic Zone. The move would be part of protecting New Zealand's forests from being depleted by India and China, he said. It follows his announcement last week to strengthen ...
New Zealand First supports the changes recommended by the Winter Grazing Taskforce to improve animal welfare outcomes through the winter months, and the establishment of a pan-sector action group to implement them. New Zealand First Primary Industries Spokesperson Mark Patterson says the report highlights areas of concern about the animal ...
Former prime ministers Helen Clark and Sir John Key, formerly from the Labour and National parties respectively, have joined forces in support of New Zealand First’s plan to relocate Auckland's port to Whangārei. While Ms Clark and Sir John spent their political careers on opposite sides of the political divide, ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters is in Japan for the Foreign Ministers' meeting of the G20 grouping of countries as one of nine "invited" countries. He has used the opportunity to cast a spotlight on the plight of Pacific countries, calling out countries which still offered subsidies or Government assistance to ...
It's been a great week of progress: we've celebrated Children's Day, we've made communities safer with 1800 new police, and we've seen almost 90% of eligible schools take up Government funding to scrap school donations - taking pressure off the families of more than 416,000 students. ...
Hon Shane Jones, Minister of Forestry The Government will further strengthen New Zealand’s wood processing sector as part of our focus on ‘value over volume’ in our forestry industry, Forestry Minister Shane Jones says. Minister Jones will today meet with forestry representatives in Northland to signal new measures to help the ...
New Zealand First are celebrating the announcement of an investment of $3.5 million into five new trapping devices. These are a range of bait and trap devices, all designed to be left unattended for long periods of time. NZ First conservation spokesperson Jenny Marcroft says that this latest development will ...
Fletcher Tabuteau MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Regional Economic Development Innovation and technology are behind five new tools to give nature a helping hand by helping eliminate predators, funded through the Provincial Growth Fund (PGF), Minister for Conservation Eugenie Sage and Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Regional Economic Development Fletcher Tabuteau announced today.“The ...
Darroch Ball, Spokesperson for Police New Zealand First is proud to have delivered on a key Coalition Agreement commitment to adding 1800 new frontline police, with the graduation of Recruit Wing 332 in Porirua today. Law and Order Spokesperson Darroch Ball says increasing police numbers and boosting their resources was one ...
Jenny Marcroft, Spokesperson for Conservation New Zealand First is proud to announce the Provincial Growth Fund (PGF) has allocated $3.5 million to develop innovative predator control approaches which will reduce the need for repeated 1080 use. $19.5 million of PGF funding was announced for Predator Free 2050 Limited in February ...
Rt Hon Winston Peters, Deputy Prime Minister, Minister of Foreign Affairs Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters has welcomed the first reading of the Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation 2021 (APEC 2021) Bill in Parliament today. The temporary bill supports New Zealand’s security preparations for hosting the Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation (APEC) Forum ...
Racing Minister Winston Peters has welcomed the first reading of the Racing Industry Bill in parliament today. This is the second of two Bills that have been introduced this year to revitalise New Zealand’s racing industry. “Our domestic racing industry has been in serious decline. The Government is committed to ...
Minister for Disability Issues, Carmel Sepuloni, is pleased to announce that $291,321 is to be awarded to national and local community initiatives to maintain and promote the use of New Zealand Sign Language (NZSL). “New Zealand is one of the few countries in the world where Sign Language is an ...
Minister for Veterans Ron Mark has announced today the Coalition Government’s initial response to work completed by the independent statutory body, the Veterans’ Advisory Board. “When Professor Ron Paterson completed his review of the Veterans’ Support Act in 2018, he made a number of recommendations, including one which I referred ...
The Government will fund the bulk of the cost of a rural water supply for the Ohakea community affected by PFAS contamination, Environment Minister David Parker announced today at a meeting of local residents. This new water scheme will provide a reliable and clean source of drinking water to the ...
I have had the opportunity to be briefed on the details of the volcanic eruption of Whakaari/White Island, off the coast of Whakatane in the Bay of Plenty. The eruption happened at 2.11pm today. It continues to be an evolving situation. We know that there were a number of tourists ...
Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern and Minister of Civil Defence Peeni Henare have today confirmed initial Government support of $100,000 for communities affected by the severe weather that swept across the South Island and lower North Island over the weekend. The contribution will be made to Mayoral relief funds across the ...
New Zealand's High Commissioner to the Cook Islands, Tessa Temata, died in Palmerston North over the weekend, Foreign Minister Winston Peters said today. Ms Temata, 52, had recently returned to New Zealand for medical treatment. "On behalf of the Government and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade, we extend ...
Transport Minister Phil Twyford today announced construction is underway on Wellington commuter rail upgrades which will mean more frequent services and fewer breakdowns. The upgrades include converting the Trentham to Upper Hutt single track section to a double track, with a new signalling system, upgraded stations and level crossings, and ...
Minister of Defence Ron Mark and Minister for Climate Change James Shaw have announced the release of a Defence Climate Change Implementation Work Plan, titled Responding to the Climate Crisis: An Implementation Plan. The plan sets out a series of recommendations based on the 2018 New Zealand Defence Assessment, The ...
A medium-scale adverse event has been declared for the South Canterbury district, which will see up to $50,000 in funding made available to support farming communities which have been significantly affected by recent heavy rain and flooding in the area, says Agriculture Minister Damien O’Connor. “Two weeks of solid rain ...
Thank you Professor Juliet Gerrard and your team for the comprehensive and extremely helpful report and recommendations. Thank you too to all the stakeholders and interested parties who have contributed ideas and thinking to it. “Making best practice, standard practice” is a great framework for change and the action plan ...
The Government will phase out more single-use plastics following the success of its single-use plastic bag ban earlier this year and the release today of a pivotal report for dealing with waste. Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern has welcomed the Rethinking Plastics in Aotearoa New Zealandreport, released by her Chief Science Advisor ...
International education continues to thrive as the Government focuses on quality over quantity, Education Minister Chris Hipkins said. The tuition revenue from international education increased to $1.16 billion last year with the average tuition fee per student increasing by $960. The total number of international students enrolled in New Zealand ...
I want to talk about one of the most pressing issues in our national life: the housing crisis and the poor performance of our cities. The argument I want to make to you is that generations of urban land use policy have lacked a decent grounding in economics. The consequences ...
Health Minister Dr David Clark says new appointments to DHBs represent a significant changing of the guard, with 13 new chairs including four Māori chairs. Today 76 appointments have been announced to complement elected board members, as well as eight elected members appointed as either chair or deputy chair. Four ...
Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Foreign Affairs, Fletcher Tabuteau, is travelling to Germany, Poland, Austria, and Spain next week to bolster New Zealand’s political and trade relationships in Europe. While in Spain, Mr Tabuteau will represent New Zealand at the 14th Asia-Europe (ASEM) Foreign Ministers’ Meeting in Madrid. “New Zealand strongly supports ...
“I’ve spoken to Minister Faafoi, who has apologised for his poor handling of this issue,” Jacinda Ardern said. “I have confidence in Kris as a hardworking and effective Minister, but this should have been dealt with in a much clearer manner, and I’ve made my views on that very clear ...
Deputy Prime Minister Winston Peters met with Tongan Prime Minister and Foreign Minister Pohiva Tu'i'onetoa in Wellington today. The pair signed a Statement of Partnership setting out joint priorities for cooperation out to 2023. “We welcomed Prime Minister Tu'i'onetoa on his first visit to New Zealand as Prime Minister. Tonga ...
The Minister of Police Stuart Nash says his sympathies are with the family of a man who died after being shot by Police in Kurow. “Initial reports are that Police were called by a family member to help the man who was threatening to harm himself,” Mr Nash says. “However ...
Ethnic communities will be able to plan and deliver more community initiatives thanks to an increase in Government funding, Minister for Ethnic Communities Hon Jenny Salesa said today. “Ensuring Aotearoa New Zealand is a place we can all be proud to call home has been a key priority of our ...
Healthier waterways, better productivity and farmer wellbeing are front and centre in a new project involving more than 1000 Southland farmers and growers. Minister of Agriculture Damien O’Connor today announced that the Thriving Southland Change and Innovation Project is the first region-wide extension programme supported by the $229 million Sustainable ...
Work to look after nature and restore freshwater quality in Te Hoiere/Pelorus River catchment is getting a significant boost, thanks to new Government funding support Minister for Conservation Eugenie Sage announced in Canvastown today. “Every New Zealander should be able to swim in their local river without getting sick, and ...
Eight Queen’s Counsel have been appointed under a process that includes the new criterion of a commitment to improving access to justice, Attorney-General David Parker announced today. “The new criterion was included this year. It emphasises that excellence and leadership in the profession can be seen through a wider, community ...
Onslow College in Wellington will get 20 new classrooms for more than 400 students, Education Minister Chris Hipkins announced today. The much-needed investment will relieve growth pressure the school has been experiencing for some time. Seven existing classrooms which have deteriorated over time will also be replaced, bringing the total ...
More than 250 young New Zealanders will add international experience to their education, thanks to the latest Prime Minister’s Scholarships for Asia (PMSA) and Latin America (PMSLA), Education Minister Chris Hipkins announced today. This round of scholarships supports 252 recent graduates or current students to undertake study, research or internships ...
Consumers will benefit from a more competitive, transparent retail fuel market as a result of changes the Government will be making in response to the findings of the Commerce Commission’s study of the fuel sector. “We accept the Commission’s findings and, as the Prime Minister has said, we’re ready to ...
Five new cancer medicines have now been funded this year, meaning thousands of people have more treatment options PHARMAC has today announced that it has approved two new medicines for funding – fulvestrant for breast cancer and olaparib for ovarian cancer. This follows earlier decisions on advanced lung cancer treatment alectinib, ...
The Minister of Local Government, Hon Nanaia Mahuta says the Government will consider making changes to local electoral legislation before the 2022 elections to fix the problems that have arisen where elections are settled by a coin toss. The Minister says the recount process in the Murupara- Galatea ward at ...
New Zealand will sign up to new international maritime regulations to reduce ship emissions and lift air quality around ports and harbours, Associate Transport Minister Julie Anne Genter announced today. Subject to completion of the Parliamentary treaty examination process, New Zealand will sign up to Annex VI of MARPOL, an ...
New legislation to transform our urban areas and create sustainable, inclusive and thriving communities will tomorrow be introduced to Parliament, Urban Development Minister Phil Twyford said. “The Urban Development Bill gives Kāinga Ora-Homes and Communities the tools it needs to partner with councils, communities, mana whenua and private developers to ...
Today’s launch of He taonga te Tamaiti: Every child a taonga: The Early Learning Action Plan 2019-2029 provides the foundation for long-lasting changes to early learning, Education Minister Chris Hipkins says. “Early learning will be one of the Government’s top education priorities going into 2020,” Chris Hipkins said. ...
Major decisions made by the Government will now be considered under a climate change lens, Minister for Climate Change James Shaw announced today. “Cabinet routinely considers the effects of its decisions on human rights, the Treaty of Waitangi, rural communities, the disability community, and gender – now climate change will ...
Education Minister Chris Hipkins today announced the appointment of Māori education specialist Dr Wayne Ngata and Business NZ head Kirk Hope to the Board of the Tertiary Education Commission (TEC). Dr Alastair MacCormick has been reappointed for another term. “Wayne Ngata, Kirk Hope and Alastair MacCormick bring a great deal ...
The next phase of the Pike River Re-entry project is underway, Minister Responsible for Pike River Re-entry Andrew Little says. “Fresh air will be pumped into the Pike River Mine drift this week, following acceptance of the plan for re-entry beyond the 170m barrier by New Zealand’s independent health and ...
New Zealand consumers will have greater certainty about their insurance cover when they need to make claims as a result of proposed government changes. “Insurance is vitally important in supporting consumers and businesses to be financially resilient when unexpected events happen,” Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs Kris Faafoi said. ...
The Crown is providing an opportunity for the hapu of Ngāpuhi to rebuild its framework from the ground up for collective negotiations to deal with its historical Treaty claims, Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations Andrew Little and Minister for Māori Development Nanaia Mahuta announced today. The Crown is also ...
A Bill enabling referendums to be held with the 2020 General Election has passed its third reading. Justice Minister Andrew Little says the Act is important for upholding the integrity of New Zealand’s electoral process. “The Government has committed to holding a referendum on legalising recreational cannabis at the next ...
The first release of public information on the two referendums to be held at next year’s General Election was made today with an informative new Government website going live. Additionally, the draft Cannabis Legalisation and Control Bill has been released, showing the strict controls on cannabis that will apply if ...
The Government is taking action to protect New Zealand from foreign interference in our elections by banning foreign donations to political parties and candidates, Justice Minister Andrew Little announced today. Legislation will be introduced to Parliament this afternoon and passed under urgency. “There’s no need for anyone other than New ...
Governments and tech companies are holding a two-day workshop, hosted by YouTube/Google in Wellington, to test the Christchurch Call Shared Crisis Response Protocol. The workshop aims to refine and strengthen the response in the event of a terrorist attack with online implications. Companies, governments, civil society experts and NGOs will ...
The issue of moving Auckland's port goes beyond party politics - it is an idea whose time has come for commercial, practical and cultural purposes, writes Shane Te Pou. ...
A decade of austerity and four elections in five years have scarred rather than soothed Britain. John Morgan wonders if the electoral barometer might yet swing to change. ...
Through the dark clouds of injury woes, pole vaulting star Eliza McCartney saw a chance to turn her focus to making a cleaner, healthier New Zealand ...
While New Zealand struggles with the volcano tragedy, Australia too, is in the grip of its own disaster. Bushfires in New South Wales have killed 6 people and destroyed nearly 700 homes. Newsroom’s Mark Jennings is currently in Sydney which is blanketed in thick grey smoke. ...
By providing food boxes to those who have requested food grants, Work and Income is fundamentally misunderstanding how to meet a basic human right, writes Rebekah Graham. Over the past few months, Work and Income has provided Auckland-based beneficiaries who have requested a food grant with a Bargain Box food kit ...
As controversy including a $10m lawsuit and ‘ghost’ offices continues to swirl around Jamie Beaton, his fellow Rhodes scholars have slammed him for trying to recruit them.Those who gain a prestigious Rhodes Scholarship must display “truth, courage, devotion to duty, sympathy for and protection of the weak, kindliness, unselfishness and ...
With the Labour party making a late surge in the opinion polls and getting some good headlines, some pundits are wondering if Britain’s general election on Thursday will end in a repeat of 2017’s hung parliament.Never say never, but this time feels quite different to 2017.That election took ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michael Lueck, Professor of Tourism, Auckland University of Technology The official death toll remains at five, and eight people are still missing, presumed to have died in yesterday’s volcanic eruption at Whakaari/White Island. The people on the island were tourists and tour ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Abishek Santhakumar, Senior Lecturer in Haematology, Charles Sturt University How and why do we get bruises? – Francesca, aged 8. Hi Francesca, thanks for sending in this great question. If you fall off your bike or knock yourself on ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Ryan R. Witt, Conjoint Lecturer | Conservation Biology Research Group, University of Newcastle Thousands of koalas may have died in fires burning through New South Wales but expert evidence to a state parliamentary inquiry on Monday said we are unlikely to ever ...
Police Minister Stuart Nash has defended the police decision not to mount a rescue operation at Whakaari / White Island and says he's confident they did everything they could. ...
Sam Brooks interviews Cecily, the local singer behind surprise sleeper hit ‘Thinking ‘Bout Me’.“Getting thinner, feeling fatter, laughing more, feeling sadder.”That’s one of a few killer lines that adorn Cecily’s gem of a sadbanger ‘Thinking ‘Bout Me’, which wound up on the top of every pop music nerd’s favourite New ...
I have written elsewhere (see reference list below) about the important principles that suggest all enfranchised residents should receive a share of public income, and how the realisation of this is essentially a matter of reformed public accounting. Here I just consider two typical New Zealanders of different generations, and ...
Hū ana te whenua, ngārue ana te moana. He aituā! He aituā! E tangi ana i āhua o te parekura i Whakaari inanahi. E aroha ana ki te whānau pani me ngā iwi e honohono kau ana ki te tipua maunga kei te Moana-a-Toi. “The Māori Party expresses its ...
The Prime Minister has sent a message to the family and friends of those overseas tourists caught up in the Whakaari / White Island eruption that New Zealand will hold their loved one close. ...
In the first instalment of our new pop-up podcast, The Spinoff Book Out Loud, Madeleine Chapman reads her poignant, hilarious response to the response to her scandalous ranking of New Zealand chips.In late March 2019, Madeleine Chapman spied her Everest, and she climbed it. “All 123 chip flavours in New ...
We were in the middle of drawing up this list when Potton & Burton quietly dropped a new book – it is optimistic and surprising and all kinds of wonderful, and here is our wee rave about it. Plus, in no particular order, here are the other nine best children’s ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Lachlan Warner, Australian Catholic University Last week Britain’s Turner Prize for visual art was announced. For the first time, the award went to a collective instead of the usual singular winner. The four finalists – Helen Cammock, Oscar Murillo, Tai Shani and ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Genna Churches, PhD Candidate, UNSW After watching this year’s media raids and the prosecution of lawyers and whistleblowers, it’s not hard to see why Australians wonder about excessive police power and dwindling journalistic freedom. But these problems are compounded by another, less ...
Sam Brooks reviews Marriage Story, the latest Netflix movie that tackles that universally horrible experience: divorce.There’s a moment, about halfway into Noah Baumbach’s Marriage Story, Netflix’s new film about the dissolution of a marriage, that hit me harder than anything else in the movie up until that point. During their first mediation ...
Barnardos welcomes He taonga te tamaiti - the 10 Year Early Learning Action Plan recently published by the Ministry of Education. Barnardos particularly welcomes the theme of the Action Plan: every child a taonga. The plan recognises that every ...
It is International Human Rights Day 2019. To explore the close connection between social work and human rights and to highlight social work activity in this field, the Association asked Neil Ballantyne, a social work academic at the Open Polytechnic ...
A defamation case involving former National minister Steven Joyce, the NBR website and its publisher focuses on what columnist Matthew Hooton meant by particular words he used in a "ruthless, spiteful, repugnant" column. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By John Quiggin, Professor, School of Economics, The University of Queensland The Morrison government’s waiving of almost A$500 million in dodgy vocational education and training debts holds many lessons about the nature of education and public services being provided by for-profit enterprises. The ...
If you’re looking for Christmas gifts or just trying to fill the void of silence with your friends and family this festive season, look no further than the humble board game. Christmas is coming which means long, lazy days with your nearest and dearest, perhaps eating too much and definitely still ...
Twenty-four hours after the eruption on Whakaari/White Island, here’s what we know about the ongoing situation.How many people have died?Currently, the official death toll stands at five, but there are a further eight people missing, who are presumed to have died in the eruption. 31 people remain in hospital and ...
The New Zealand Muslim Association is saddened for those effected by the impact of Whakaari / White Island eruption. We share their pain and sorrow and are concerned for those still missing. Our prayers and thoughts are with the victims of this tragic ...
Another giant bird has been torn from its grave: the ancient Rēkohu/Chatham Island penguin. Just how big was it?Standing at just over a metre tall, Kupoupou stilwelli was a big bird. It was as large as the giant Otago parrot, or as tall as a metre ruler.Sixty million years ago, ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Celine Boehm, Head of School for Physics, University of Sydney A team of scientists in Hungary recently published a paper that hints at the existence of a previously unknown subatomic particle. The team first reported finding traces of the particle in 2016, ...
At the request of the Prime Minister, the Right Honourable Jacinda Ardern, the New Zealand Flag is to be flown at half-mast on all Government and public buildings with immediate effect as a mark of mourning and respect for the victims of the Whakaari/White ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Daniel Connell, Research Fellow, Crawford School of Public Policy, Australian National University When farmers descended on Parliament House in Canberra this month to demand the Murray Darling Basin Plan be dumped, they reserved sharp words for Nationals leader Michael McCormack. “The National ...
From tennis champions to dance craze inventors, Scratched celebrates New Zealand sporting heroes who never got their due – but whose legacies deserve to be in lights. This month, Barbara Cox, the matriarch of New Zealand football.New Zealand’s first women’s football team wasn’t formed until 1975. Barbara Cox was the ...
White Island tour operators say the eruption risk level on the island yesterday was within their guidelines to keep operating. Yet when tragedy strikes, it’s natural to question whether the powers that be made the right decisions. ...
The roll of drums sounded for many months — but the Reserve Bank’s call on how the country’s banks could withstand a one-in-200-year financial crisis landed with less of a bang, more like a whimper, last week. At least, that’s how the markets interpreted the decision of the Governor, Adrian ...
Looking back on 10 years of wild, weird and wonderful food stories in Aotearoa.It’s been a hell of a decade for food here in New Zealand. Sure, there have been tedious trends aplenty – the rise of bloody kale, bloody coconut oil, bloody poké bowls – but the following list ...
What the hell are you meant to give the person who has everything? Don’t worry, Sam Brooks has you covered with the gift guide for that person in your life.It’s that time of year again – that time of the year when you have to think about your sociopathic friend. ...
Wellbeing may be at the centre of government strategy, but too many children and whānau are remaining on the outer, cautions The Royal Australasian College of Physicians (RACP). In a series of report cards released today, the RACP’s Aotearoa NZ President, ...
"You get this sudden depressurisation, same as sort of taking the top off of a soft drink bottle or pulling the cork out of a bottle of champagne. It depressurises and the materials underneath rise very, very quickly." ...
Looking back on 10 years which saw New Zealand’s media transform from a position of near-limitless power and influence to the deeply humbled reality of today. At the end of 2009 I had resigned from my first good job, convinced that print media was finished. The good job was as editor ...
Sending in armed police is exactly how not to defuse a situation where a person is highly distressed and suicidal, writes someone who has been in a similar situation herself.Last week a man was shot by police. There’d been a call for help – he was suicidal, had a weapon ...
Report into 2017 general election tipped to be published shortly; and higher benefits, more state housing needed to combat child poverty - Children's Commissioner. ...
Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern has confirmed that her Cabinet is in agreement that it "is not viable" for the North Island's main port to remain in Auckland. ...
Anyone watching the news coverage of the debate over Auckland's port would think a move to Northland is a real prospect. It's not, writes Bernard Hickey, who sees it purely as a political oxygen machine for NZ First. ...
Local party members have today selected Jake Bezzant as National’s candidate in Upper Harbour for the 2020 Election. Mr Bezzant is replacing Paula Bennett, National’s Campaign Chair, who isn’t seeking re-election in Upper Harbour but will stand as ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Jean-Philippe Deranty, Professor, Macquarie University Hardly a week goes by without a report announcing the end of work as we know it. In 2013, Oxford University academics Carl Frey and Michael Osborne were the first to capture this anxiety in a paper ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Asha Bowen, Head, Skin Health, Telethon Kids Institute Antibiotic-resistant infections already cause at least 700,000 deaths globally every year. Although the phenomenon is most concerning for serious infections people are admitted to hospital with, antibiotic resistance means common bacterial infections could one ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Holly Thorpe, Professor in Sociology of Sport and Physical Culture, University of Waikato Recently, several elite sportswomen have spoken out about toxic sport culture and the damage it does to their long-term health. Mary Cain went from being the fastest and the ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Alan Reid, Professor Emeritus of Education, University of South Australia Since the OECD’s Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) began in 2000, published results have sent commentators and politicians in some countries into meltdown. The release of the 2018 test results last ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Eric Keys, PhD Researcher, Centre for Urban Research, RMIT University This is the second article in a series to mark the 50th anniversary of the landmark Melbourne Transportation Plan. Transport models are often singled out as a barrier to providing more sustainable ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Lisa Toohey, Professor of Law, University of Newcastle An important part of the World Trade Organization will cease to function from midnight. December 10 is when the terms of two of the remaining three members of its Appellate Body expire. It is ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Aaron Burton, Lecturer in Media Arts, University of Wollongong Fans of Ridley Scott’s 1982 masterpiece Blade Runner returned to cinemas last month for an unusual milestone: history catching up with science fiction. Blade Runner opens in Los Angeles, in November 2019. Furnaces ...
Welcome to The Bulletin. In today’s edition: Death toll from Whakaari eruption likely to rise, cabinet agrees Auckland port must move, and expensive Christchurch stadium details released.A tragic death toll from the eruption of Whakaari/White Island is likely to rise. The number of those killed is currently five at the time ...
Aerial reconnaissance missions have flown over Whakaari-White Island since the eruption on Monday afternoon and there are no signs of any survivors, police say. ...
Open Mike 11/01/2017 
Brad Scott, GNS Science VolcanologistThis post was originally published by GeoNet. Following the 9 December devastating eruption at Whakaari/White Island we have put together some information about the island. New Zealand’s most active volcano Whakaari/White Island is currently New Zealand’s most active volcano, it has been since an eruptive episode ...13 hours ago
The Justice Committee has reported back on its Inquiry into the 2017 General Election and 2016 Local Elections, with a host of recommendations about how to improve our electoral systems. Some of their recommendations are already incorporate din the Electoral Amendment Bill currently before Parliament, but there's also a recommendation ...13 hours ago
I love data. It’s amazing the sort of “discoveries” I can make given a data set and computer statistical package. It’s just so easy to search for relationships and test their statistical significance. Maybe relationships which ... 19 hours ago
The other big story concerning Leeds Hospital is Boris Johnson's bizzare behaviour at Leeds Hospital, where he was confronted by a journalist and challenged about a four year old boy with suspected pneumonia who was left sleeping on the floor, rather than getting abed like a sick kid would in ...21 hours ago
by Daphna Whitmore Last week France passed a law that equates anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. It is based on a definition of anti-Semitism that includes criticism of Israel such as: “Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist ...2 days ago
The state of the United Kingdom is fractured, torn up, shredded. The Empire is gone, it died a long time ago. And yet, the country is still tracking with a lead in favour of the ones who play to the ingrained, class-bound division for political gain. It is a disgrace ...3 days ago
It should be obvious by now but let’s be clear: The same folk who regularly traffic in disinformation, misinformation and “fake news” are also those who most strongly claim that their freedom of expression rights are being violated when moves are made to curb hate speech (as opposed to protected ...4 days ago
New Zealand's Underarm Banker: It bears recalling that the “independence” of the Reserve Bank Governor was for decades held up by neoliberal capitalists as the most compelling justification for passing the Reserve Bank Act. Interesting, is it not, how the ruling class’s support for the Bank’s independence lasted no longer than ...5 days ago
“Free at last, Free at last, Thank God almighty we are free at last.” ― Martin Luther King Jr. A long and bitter court feud between former Conservative Party leader Colin Craig and Jordan Williams has been settled, with an apology and compensation from Williams. On Tuesday, Craig sent out ...5 days ago
In an unreliable, strange and confusing world, Public Address is proud to present a measure of comfort and stability by annually asking everyone what words or phrases sum up the year that's been – and then giving some of them consumer goods as prizes for being clever or simply lucky.Well, ...6 days ago
While much of the NZ left has transitioned to postmodern and identity politics in relation to transgender ideology, there are some very good articles about that deploy Marxist methodology in relation to this subject. The one below is from the British marxist group Counterfire and appeared on their site here ...1 week ago
“America the Beautiful!”, staunch defender of democracy, freedom and… a whole lot of despotic tyrants that play nice with what is called “the Washington Consensus.” America is indeed capable of immense good, but like any Nation, and most assuredly any aspirant to the mantle of Empire, great, immense evil. All ...1 week ago
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Interesting article.
I don’t think we’re quite as stuffed as the author makes us out to be or at least not in the short to medium term.
There’s one key issue she missed out and that is consumer enthusiasm to these new types of food, the whole frankenfood, heavily processed mindset is going to take quite a bit of time to overcome.
Positioning ourselves going forward though, organics has to be the future for NZ food production aim for those people who still want their food “natural’
Yes there is a resistance to ‘frankenfoods’ and there is also a growing grasp of the connection between a plant based diet and a lower carbon footprint.
That and the growing realisation that cows milk is not actually good for us.
I agree that organically is the way forward.
I recommend you watch ‘Cowspiracy.’
I recommend that you don’t as it was obviously a load of bollocks written up by an ignoramus.
You deny the massive carbon footprint of animal farming?
No. I deny the lies that are the basis for Cowspiracy.
I am glad we agree that stopping eating animals is the biggest thing we can do to mitigate our carbon footprint.
8.4 on IMDB.
I also don’t recommend Cowspiracy, as it is a fundamentalist vegan propaganda film that takes far too many liberties with the truth in presenting its argument. I’ve critiqued this before – It seems to be comparing industrial stock farming with industrial agriculture and deciding that industrial agriculture is best. Both are highly polluting and destroy ecologies. Swapping one for the other out of ideological concerns just creates different problems, what we need to do instead is make all farming sustainable and regenerative.
A review of the film,
http://cairncrestfarm.blogspot.co.nz/2014/10/cowspiracy-movie-review.html
I’d also add that in this discussion we need to distinguish between industrial farming designed to produce commodities to make money, and the need to have people growing food so we can eat. They are two different things entirely. Saying we should all be vegan supports industrial farming, because it pushes shifting from feedlot cows to monsanto soy. Neither are viable in a world of CC or a world that desperately needs to protect the environment.
You deny the massive carbon footprint of animal farming?
No.
Did you fail to understand my points?
Eating meat is the single most destructive thing you can do to the environment.
So someone who eats meat from rabbits raised in their backyard is engaged in the single most destructive thing they can do to the environment?
Your ideology is blinding you Paul. Stop and think about what you just said.
99% of people do not eat that way
According to the IPCC Agriculture in total accounts for only 13.5% of Greenhouse emissions, so that cannot be true Paul.
link please.
https://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar5/syr/
Click on 5th assessment Report, and see page 88.
Ta. Run it past Bill. I don’t remember the details (because I think the maths are a distraction), but from what I remember the ag figures are not a good representation of the state of play. Something to do with what they include in ag and what they don’t.
Plus there’s the food miles issue with eating meat (or eating anything).
Don’t know about that Weka, My understanding is that deforestation is included in agriculture among other things, so if you get down just to animal farming you are looking at much less than 14%?
What I do know is that it proves that PAUL’S documentary is a lying piece of propaganda shit.
And just for once, I’d like PAUL to stick around and keep discussing things when the FACTS don’t suit the lying propaganda he is posting….
Guess he’ll just go away for the night and then start up in the morning raving about the lying propaganda that doesn’t agree with his own lying propaganda….
Watch ‘Before the Flood.’
You might learn something.
Trying to shift the ground Paul?
Why don’t you just address the lies in the previous propaganda you recommended?
“And just for once, I’d like PAUL to stick around and keep discussing things when the FACTS don’t suit the lying propaganda he is posting….”
Yes, I see what you mean.
Eating meat is the single most destructive thing you can do to the environment.
Quite apart from being wrong on the face of it (as others have explained), it’s also wrong at a deeper level: eating grass-fed livestock is better for the environment than eating crop plants. Get everyone on the planet eating soy and before long you’ll be wondering why there’s no topsoil any more.
Yep, although conventional livestock farming also depletes soil, just a bit slower.
Simple idea: we only grow the food required for our own population +20% for export.
That should get rid of a few million heads of livestock.
Permaculture is the solution.
Or, eating grass-fed livestock is the solution. Comes down to whether you prefer some soy-based edible object to a slab of meat or not. Don’t find it a difficult choice, myself, but maybe that’s just me.
Grassfed livestock uses up a massive carbon footprint.
Watch Di Caprio’s recent film ‘Before the Flood.’ – if you are suspicious of Cowspiracy.
Of course there is also the issue of animal cruelty.
Watch ‘Earthlings.’
And the health issues.
Watch ‘Fork over knives.’
“Permaculture is the solution.”
on that we can agree Paul (or at least it’s one of the solutions).
I’d say decreasing the Earths population was the number one strategy personally.
How would you do that? And by how much? And how would you stop the remaining people from burning fossil fuels and generally polluting the place?
‘How would you do that?’
Exactly the same way you would have people shift to perma-culture / power-down’/ go back to manual labour Weka.
You need social agreement it is necessary, and a socially agreed plan to make it happen.
It’s a tough one, but the Worlds population cannot simply keep growing can it?
‘And by how much?’
4 Billion sounds good to me. Take a few centuries to achieve.
‘And how would you stop the remaining people from burning fossil fuels and generally polluting the place?’
I’ve just spent a month in Asia and Europe on business, and from what i saw, my answer would be, ‘wouldn’t have the faintest idea!’.
Aotearoa is a tiny wee cocoon of tranquility. The pace and frenzy of the drive for ‘development’ in the emerging countries is way beyond anything I could envisage a mechanism for holding back.
We don’t have a few centuries. Post going up today for discussion.
Tonight I’m cooking steaks just to annoy you Paul.
Not in the short term. The medium term should be the crossover period and the long term is when we replant our farms as native forest.
Doubt it. People have been eating ‘frankenfoods’ for awhile – pretty much anything that comes pre-made fits that bill.
I would suggest and am an advocate for more of a Robert Guyton approach where we plant with biodiversity in mind. Natives are at their best supplemented by various imports a favourite plant of mine (or weed to some) is Verbena bonariensis. The insect life, not to mention bees it supports is unreal and it kicks in right after Muehlenbeckia axillaris which bees love.
Talking about NZ going more to organic reminds me that I heard the Falkland Islands were into that.
I think we should establish High Commissioners and set up as sister countries. They seem to have cool headed people making governmental decisions and have ideas that we should talk about, and vice versa. And Falklands are similar to us, next to a hostile country as we are to Australia – which is ready to stand on our shoulders to achieve advantage for themselves and government ready to show disrespect like the boors they are.
http://www.falklands.gov.fk/self-sufficiency/commercial-sectors/agriculture
http://organic-market.info/news-in-brief-and-reports-article/_Falkland_Islands.html/farm.
google Falkland Islands organic farming
Oh, Give Me a Home, Where the Sheep and the … – Modern Farmer
modernfarmer.com/2016/02/falkland-islands/
Feb 4, 2016 – The Falkland Islands are a wildlife sanctuary turned organic
Those Sci-fi books and movies showing machines that could be dialed up from stored ingredients and a synthetic steak pops out of the wall, are maybe a future much closer?
A very interesting article thanks Sacha. Can you imagine the ponderous Government machine adapting to swift changes? What about the poor old dairy farmers?
And how will I manage synthetic steaks? What about the sugar industry?
Actually the whole World economy would be in for a huge shake up?
Actually, I can. What I can’t imagine is the private sector adapting to it as they need things to remain the same for them to make a profit.
Yep. We can kiss goodbye to trade in food. Why import when everything that the city needs and wants can be produced in the city?
Those Sci-fi books and movies showing machines that could be dialed up from stored ingredients and a synthetic steak pops out of the wall, are maybe a future much closer?
A very interesting article thanks Sacha. Can you imagine the ponderous Government machine adapting to swift changes? What about the poor old dairy farmers?
And how will I manage synthetic steaks? What about the sugar industry?
Actually the whole World economy would be in for a huge shake up.
I find articles like this really annoying – not due to anything the author writes, but because it rubs my nose in the fact that NZ used to be at the forefront of agricultural science but is no longer, and the outlook isn’t for improvement. We’ve had decades of a deadly combination: right-wing governments hollowing out the country’s public science research facilities, and hippies fighting against scientific experimentation in agriculture. Yes we’re going to get disrupted, and we’ve only ourselves to blame.
and we’ve only ourselves to blame.
I don’t quite agree, What the author was trying to point out that what made us unique and successful( clean green, plenty of space) is no longer important or even needed.
You can now have a “dairy farm” in the middle of the Sahara, you can have a “dairy farm” in the middle of a Nestle chocolate factory.
These “dairy farms” can produce a product that is healthier than the original with no animal cruelty, minimal environmental damage and can be just about anywhere.
it’s unfortunate for NZ but large scale traditional dairying has been or soon will be superseded by this technology, it’s going the way of the dinosaur.
Given the environmental effects of large-scale dairy farming, it would be great if it became a niche business practiced only on a small scale.
I’ve eaten what Americans fondly imagine to be cheese, and believe we don’t need to be seriously threatened by American start-ups of non-agriculture-based food IF we stop holding back our own ag/food research. That’s “if” in capitals and italics because it’s a very big “if” and I don’t see a strong likelihood of us doing it.
One thing I have noticed is how strongly attitudes have changed in regards to the environment/animal welfare, especially with the current generation.
Take for example the electric car, it used to be the only selling point was that it would save you money, now the main selling point is that they’re eco-friendly which means you’re doing your bit for climate change, saving the world etc.
The same mindset is what will make this next generation food popular, thanks to the internet people now know that dairy is terrible for the environment, milk isn’t particularly good for you even though it tastes nice and there’s lots of animal cruelty that goes into the creation of dairy.
That is what’s going to be the big driver of this going forward if the dairy industry wants to compete it needs a radical overhaul and as soon as possible, the longer they leave it the worse it will get for the industry
Just as an aside, the claim that milk isn’t good for you is a canard. Lactose tolerance is a poster boy for human evolution because it spread so rapidly through the population – that rapidity being due to the big survival advantage it conferred. Dairy is excellent food and the people without lactose tolerance are really missing out.
No arguments re the problems associated with it as an industry, though.
Answer to BM @ 11.31am
Shit I hope this is not going to be a trend in 2017 but I agree with you BM 100%
I know right. Pfft to commercial agriculture. Shit taste like water and saw dust cause it’s stored longer and less nutritious. BM trying to sell dog shit again
Just remembered an old favourite song , humming it now .a rollicking version of (Cows with guns}
“I’ve eaten what Americans fondly imagine to be cheese”
Trust me, there are many places you can get a variety of interesting tasty cheeses in the US. Just not in Wisconsin.
Yes any good shop which has a wide selection of European foodstuffs
You’ve never been to San Francisco if you think that.
I guess they have proper cheese in delis and suchlike. But in cafes and restaurants I stopped ordering anything that said it had cheese in it, because the bizarre white or orange stuff they were referring to wouldn’t be anything I’d recognise as cheese.
Just gotta love those business consultants.
David Skilling she ain’t.
Bad business consultants like the writer generate answers that always start with:
pile dumploads of private capital into something really risky, and pile dumploads of crap all over everything happening now, and trash every regulation you could possibly imagine might get in your way.
Can anyone tell me where we’ve heard that before?
– Sharemarket in the 1980s and 1990s
– Real estate and residential construction market 2007-2016
– GMOs in the late 2000s, within our CRI’s
– Mining and oil 2008-2015
And each one, tears before bedtime and generations of wasted capital generated fuck-all.
And yet here we are, economy doing about as well as it has ever done in our existence, diversifying as fast as it ever has, but some nutjob with a PhD in wank and a logframe and some travel expenses and a free-hit column and some great billable units to achieve gets to tell us the whole of agriculture is a sunset industry.
She should cut the horse manure and start a new essay with:
What do our customers want, and what will those customers pay the most for?
rodger douglas went on about farming being a sunset industry in the 80S and yet we’re still here still going strong.
The buggy-whip industry was still going strong right up until it wasn’t.
still is by the look of this
http://www.drivingessentials.com/Whips.php
A stone adze would be a better example.
they just had to diversify into new market segments
B & D supplies. 🙂
Now, did I say that 😛 😀
Douglas actually believed that the reforms he forced upon us would liberate the tech sector. Instead it set it back decades.
The point that he didn’t understand, and probably still doesn’t, is that the tech sector was built by the governments of the world – not free-market capitalists. Capitalists do the cheap and easy stuff that they can make a profit out of while it’s government that does the hard stuff that a profit can never be produced from.
Dams be damned.
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/09/dams-building-let-rivers-flow
And on the subject read Derreck Jensen.
Derrick Jensen on dams.
I liked the retro 70’s porn music in the vid.
Yes, but compare to the alternatives:
Fossil Fuels – self explanatorily bad
Solar – land and habitat loss, requires significant raw and rare materials mined (rather than just a one-off large concrete pour). Not suitable for all locations due to climate.
Wind – shreds birds. Massive visual blot on the landscape and again not suitable for many locations.
Nuclear – promising but currently suffers from environmental issues due to waste problem. Expensive and vulnerable to technical problems.
Geothermal – great, only works in select locations though.
If we want to go clean, hydro power has a significant role to play, at least in New Zealand. Other countries might find it better to plop large scale solar in the desert or build next-gen nuclear plants, but NZ’s hydro electric backbone is fantastic.
Or we could power down. Let’s not pretend there aren’t other choices here.
Exactly, I’m going shopping for a new club and fur skin outfit this afternoon.
[you’re a fucking idiot who has no idea what powerdown even means. Don’t troll me, I’m not in the mood. You’re quite capable of engaging in intelligent debate, so I suggest you make some choices along those lines and stop with the soundbite baiting – weka]
Any political party promoting power down as an option for the nation?
What Johm Key has done to New Zealand as prime minister is similar to a friend who bought a WRX straight off the dock, pulled out to the lights to see how fast he could do a 1/4 mile and cooked the engine. Only in New Zealand’s case it’s going to take at least 20 years to become apparent that National can’t drive for shit.
Call AAA immediately
*facedesk*
Paying $120 to get such a vehicle carried to your local mechanics for a thorough going over, all new fluids and filters, BEFORE hammering it is the way to do it
Those were great days I reflect on fondly. We were truely entitled
I was always a VTEC lad myself
Roatary was my thing, never quite got the upgraded rocket car I mean the proper batmobile I always wanted
Powering down, as you label it, isn’t really an option – it’s a necessity.
Putting all of the non-fossil suggestions that Brutus has mentioned in place would take decades – assuming we undertook such a task. And if our energy consumption patterns continued ‘as is’ while all that infrastructure got put in place, then carbon budget after carbon budget would get busted and the average global surface temperature would keep going up.
And I know you kind of hate numbers, but effective powering down isn’t a uniform scenario that can or even ought to be equally applied across all of society (or all societies). There is a huge class element involved due to the major culprits in terms of emissions tending to be richer people. (Roughly, the wealthiest 10% are responsible for about 50% of emissions according to studies done by Oxfam and others)
And richer people tend to be resistant to giving up their privilege and ‘ways’ – they’ll find a way adapt to a changing climate. Delusional, I know. As Yoda might say – the ‘she’ll be right’ is strong in those ones.
And richer people tend to be the ones heading up institutions we’ve tasked with organising and managing responses to climate change.
Nothing up-beat from this quarter today I’m afraid. There’ll be calamities. But since the first will be affecting (are affecting) poorer people far away in equatorial and tropical regions, we’ll just carry on. Eventually the effects will come down on our heads (on the poorest first and hardest of course) and the rich will likely just kind of carry on as best they can (move house, emigrate, lay in highly individualistic or atomised adaptation measures etc).
Eventually, as a society we’ll act.
thanks for going into that in more depth Bill. And yep, class and CC.
It’s not so much that I don’t like the numbers, it’s that the I think the wrong maths are being done or at least some important maths isn’t being done yet. For instance, if what you say is true, that rich people disproportionately create/are responsible for more the problem (I believe this too), and that we therefore shouldn’t apply the power down uniformly across the nation (I also agree), and that therefore we should focus on rich people not poor people (I’m talking in NZ here, not somewhere like Somalia), then I’d say we need a different analysis as well. As you know, I think that most people in NZ need change, not just rich and well off people.
For instance, if we were to look at, in NZ, stopping all fossil fuel power generation, decommissioning dams, and possibly building some interim wind farms but acknowledging that they have their own problems, what standard of living could we expect in NZ? (and allowing for this being a thought experiment, so I get that there are all sorts of other things to take into account like transport and agriculture). Whose standard of living could we sustain? Middle class? Lower middle class? Working class? Underclass? BM’s fantasy of cave dwelling?
This is similar to when I talk about food and population. If we need to source most of our food locally and sustainably/regeneratively, how much food can we grow in each catchment in NZ?
It’s just another approach. I come to it from permaculture, which starts with those ecological principles and works out. I’d like to think about that more in terms of class, not just at the social justice level but also because I think that many of us are going to have to do physical work again (e.g. growing food). If we have a culture hell bent on ‘working class’ being something to avoid or move out of, how is that going to work out?
“but effective powering down isn’t a uniform scenario that can or even ought to be equally applied across all of society (or all societies).”
That’s an interesting way to approach this too. If by uniform you mean everyone takes a % cut downwards, then yep that’s grossly unfair and probably wouldn’t be helpful anyway. But if by uniform we look at a range of standards of living to aspire down to or up to depending on where one is currently, then I can see that being both useful and fair.
Your fantasies of some sort of communal agrarian society inevitably clash with human nature.
Assuming we were to all “return to the land”, the problem isn’t solved. Pre-industrial societies also suffered ecological devastation due to overpopulation and the inability to preserve and ration resources – as Easter island showed.
So you would of course need some sort of central authority to enforce environmental regulations in order to prevent the tragedy of the commons. Not only that, by forcing people back into lives of manual labour, considerable inequity would be generated – a society for the young, strong and able bodied effectively. The central authority would need to rectify these imbalances. Such a bureaucracy would require money, energy, and the ability to apply force to ensure compliance.
You end up right back at the beginning – just as agricultural humans originally formed governments to order their affairs and acquire the resources necessary to fulfil the desires of their citizens. Which then becomes just another beast to be fed as different views vie for influence.
And so we are back to square one.
You have to understand, there’s no voluntarily going back. Only war, genocide, pandemics, and natural disasters could “achieve” what you seek.
I don’t think you understand what the Powerdown is, and you certainly are misinterpreting my own views. Can you please stop doing that, thanks.
Let’s try another starting point. If you believe in a steady state country, how would you propose we stabilise the population?
Our natural population increase in New Zealand is almost zero – that part is taken care of. We can’t dictate to the rest of the world what they do, but we can make appropriate policies for our environment and country.
Also have replied to you below…
Do you believe in perpetual motion machines?
Are you suggesting limits on immigration then?
We already do have them, but they could be tightened further especially given the number of NZ’ers already living overseas. If they all arrived back at once we simply wouldn’t be able to handle it.
Let me clearer, do you support limiting immigration so we have steady population instead of an increasing one?
His argument is similar to maori’s. If we let them in Aotearoa won’t handle it.
Rolling my eyes at the casual racism there.
NZ is a finite space. There’s only so many people that can fit here. Far less if we want to do it sustainably.
Yep, harsh limits. No more than 10,000 immigrants per year, very carefully chosen people, under 40 years of age.
Please explain why nothing could be produced in a post fossil world?
Please explain what is so ‘against human nature’ about growing food, raising livestock or living socially (communally)?
Please explain why a central authority is a prerequisite for order?
Please explain your adherence to the utterly discredited notion of ‘the tragedy of the commons’?
Please explain how it would be the case that people in whatever post fossil world would somehow lose the ability for empathy?
Why do you think the choice is between regressing to some mythical misanthropic Hobbesian world or just staying more or less as we are? What happened to the future!
1. It can, of course.
2. It’s not, but why did such societies end?
3. Obvious. Communes over time begin to build their own identity to the exclusion of others from developing their own micro-culture. One group/commune organises itself to infringe/take more of the pie. That’s essentially the story of human history.
4. It’s not discredited, but it has been worked around at times. It’s still a reasonable basis for the argument though.
5. You may be empathetic, but in such a society, all it takes is for one group to not be and the party is over.
2. many societies and many stories. Not all societies ‘ended’. Plenty of agrarian cultures/societies exist around the world today.
3. is a half arsed but passable description of the dynamics of capitalism, not human society/history.
4. There never was any ‘tragedy of the commons’.
5. isn’t true. All societies have ways of regulating behaviours or traits that are deleterious.
Your assertions are simply wrong. Human conflict is not just a result of capitalism, as you suggest.
We are the culmination of an evolutionary process that has ensured our survival while resulting in both good and bad traits.
We know (or it’s claimed) that the poorest 50% of people in NZ produce 10% of NZ’s emissions. So if we want to see a substantial ‘overnight’ drop in NZ energy related emissions, then everyone would have to be living as half of us already do.
Homelessness aside, know anyone who lives in a cave? I don’t.
So okay. The business trips and the global jaunts and the various consumer goods with the huge carbon footprints that most of us can’t buy anyway….gone.
Throw in legislation around efficiency ratings on cars, fridges, etc and a fair few of us would see our standard of living rise (less money spent on the fuel needed to run the various contraptions/appliances) I should add that there is currently little or no price difference between a hugely efficient appliance or car and a crap one.
That (getting on for) 90% drop in emissions would have minimal to no negative impact on most of us and (with an eye to whatever piddly carbon budget we still have left) buy us some time to lay in the supply side infrastructure that we’d need achieve the necessary zero emissions from energy.
Throwing this last bit in just because it astounds me.
Globally, if just the highest emitting 10% of US citizens dropped their emissions to a European average (which is still really bloody high), global emissions would drop by 30%.
How are the emissions of each individual quantified?
Pay for your own research cheap skate
You’d have to go read the Oxfam and Chaucer & Piketty studies /reports for an explanation of their methodology.
If you’ve flown in the last year, chances are you are in the top 50% of NZ emission emitters.
String me up then…
Eventually we’ll get sailing ships back for international trade, I can’t wait, now might be a good time for the herald to apologise to Russel Coats
http://newatlas.com/next-gen-ships-sails-lower-fuel-use/22289/
Your a fish
I was hoping to find some one to talk to. I was wrong
Massive diesel powered freight ships moving at five or six knots are still a very good deal per tonne of cargo moved, emissions-wise.
Maybe. But I wouldn’t use it for trade I’d stick carbon scrubbers on it. Make industry pay for it, it would be my Mexican wall
Well, the land and habitat loss is non-existent: Solar roadways and, of course, house roofs.
And, yes, solar does work in all climates. As long as the sun is up a solar panel will collect power. Of course, solar panels should be used in conjunction with other renewable generations such as wind and hydro.
Wind turbines do, occasionally, kill birds. So do cars. In fact, I’m pretty sure that cars actually kill more. And, no, they’re not a visual blot on the landscape at all – especially if you build them out to sea where they’ll also become an artificial reef helping sea life thrive. About the only place that wind can’t be directly placed is in cities.
Nuclear isn’t viable and it’s unsustainable.
We’ve pretty much tapped out all suitable hydro-generation in NZ. There’s really nowhere left to build hydro-dams in NZ.
Wind turbines do, occasionally, kill birds. So do cars. In fact, I’m pretty sure that cars actually kill more.
I was thinking about that the other day after seeing a sparrow bounce of my bonnet and hit the road behind me – if bird deaths are an argument against wind turbines, they’re an even bigger argument against road transport because there are millions of vehicles driving around. Strangely enough, I’ve never seen anyone argue motorised transport shouldn’t be used because birds, but it gets raised all the time for wind turbines.
“Strangely enough, I’ve never seen anyone argue motorised transport shouldn’t be used because birds, but it gets raised all the time for wind turbines.”
No, but if someone said hey I’ve got this great new technology that will allow us all individually to move around the place quickly, only it’s going to kill a few people, lots of birds and small mammals, create immediate air pollution that makes people sick and puts further strain on the health system, and be a major contributor to a global catastrophe, then who really would want cars?
‘then who really would want cars?’
The answer is ‘nearly everyone’ Weka. That’s the reality of human nature for ya!
I don’t mean to but in but that’s incorrect. Cars are a manufactured want. Just turn on your tv and watch an ad for more information
Call it whatever kind of want you like Clump, then get out into the street and have a look at the reality around you.
As Orwell said, ‘Propaganda only works on those who are already inclined to accept it’.
Or do you seriously believe that if there was no advertising of cars, no one would perceive any benefit in one, and no one would want one?
That’s what market makers say to, you’ve got a lot in common you know.
It’s also conceivable with the rise of VR googles, humans will live in apartments 24/7 with no need to venture outside because drones will bring them stuff and take stuff away and so on.
If you think I’m kidding just put on a set of VR and report back here
Sounds like you’ve already had too much VR Sam!
If I have I’ll adjust my schedule to maximise my earning potential so I become a winner out of all of this and not a loser
Visual pollution is a major problem with wind turbines – they’re incredibly spatially inefficient.
I’m not defending fossil fuels, i’m promoting certain solutions over others. You are correct on decentralised solar though as being very important.
As for “powering down”, that’s just modern Ludditism (?). There are certainly efficiency gains to be had, but trying to reduce aggregate demand for energy in the world without mass population culls isn’t mathematically feasible (if it was even desirable).
Environmental protection is entirely consistent with a steady-state population but advancing technology and prosperity – done correctly.
The visual thing is subjective. Most people seemingly like the look of them.
Spatially they’re good as well. You design their layout to suit the prevailing winds and, on land, the land can still be used for other things such as farming.
At sea you keep the same layout, get better wind capture and the benefits of a massive breeding ground for fish.
“Visual pollution” doesn’t exist, other than as a matter of personal taste. If a person finds the sight of man-made objects in the landscape unbearable, they’re hardly going to be able to live anywhere but in a national park.
I have never felt wind turbines are a visual pollution. Overseas where there are many areas with wind farms, usually in desolate or moorland type areas I have always seen them as a sculptural piece of art, eerie and stark against the skyline. Surreal in their own way, but as people on this site are saying its beauty in the eyes of the beholder. I think we should have many more of them out there on our skylines – its progress in action and an obviously cleaner substitute than fossil fuels.
“If a person finds the sight of man-made objects in the landscape unbearable, they’re hardly going to be able to live anywhere but in a national park.”
That’s not what people are referring to when they talk about visual pollution, so null argument there I’m afraid.
If their beef isn’t with man-made objects per se, it’s just a matter of personal taste, for which the term “visual pollution” is inappropriate. I don’t like the sight of people wearing sports gear as street clothes, but it would be pretentious to call it “visual pollution.”
It’s not the sight of man-made objects per se, it’s the impact of some man-made objects on the appreciation of natural beauty. Not all man-made objects. It’s a valid argument in itself, I’m sure you can think of places not to put industrial structures because of the visual impact (amongst other reasons). Or maybe not. Maybe having massive industrial structures next in a national park or next to a beautiful piece of architecture wouldn’t bother bother you. Many humans aren’t like that though.
I quite like the look of wind turbines myself, relative to other industrial structures, but there’s plenty of places I think they are inappropriate to put on visual grounds alone.
NZ’s wind turbines tend to be in places where there are also farms visible and/or the original forest cover has been removed by humans. I don’t see why someone should believe that’s OK but a wind turbine isn’t.
Some people value iconic bare landscapes /shrug. I get that you don’t understand this, but you not getting it doesn’t mean it’s not valid. Myself, I’d prefer to see the hills of somewhere like Central Otago reforested even if that means letting wilding pines grow. But I also understand that the people that grew up there that have a direct relationship with the place experience the place differently.
It’s not a black and white thing, land, or appreciation of beauty. Nor is it rational in the way you want it to be. We can apply rationality over it, but that’s not always the best thing to do esp as rationales are rarely pure and simply represent a different set of values. For instance, there’s no way in hell I’ll support a wind farm on the Lammerlaws so that Aucklanders can wear t-shirts in winter or people can have heated towel rails.
I get that you don’t understand this, but you not getting it doesn’t mean it’s not valid.
It’s valid, but it’s also just an opinion, or more accurately a personal preference. I get that people feel strongly about it, and their feelings on any subject are just as valid as mine, but feeling strongly about something isn’t an argument and can’t conjure something called “visual pollution” into existence.
ah, ok, I see what you are getting at. So pollution being something that can be objectively evaluated and probably measured?
Feeling strongly about something isn’t an argument but it can be used to make an argument. We do that all the time.
But “pollution” is the word that makes it a matter of opinion, not “visual”.
Nobody uses “pollution” to refer to harmless or positive stuff, be it light pollution, noise pollution, air pollution, or waterway pollution. It’s always a negative, and usually it’s a negative to the people mentioning it but not the people who discharged it. Nobody says “you’re polluting the stream with your fresh water” unless they fall for the “dihydrogen monoxide” joke.
“Pollution” is the loaded part of the term.
except at lay person level air pollution, noise pollution, water pollution all make sense, so why not visual pollution?
Because it’s arbitrary. If someone is looking out the window of their house and thinks that the farms they can see are OK, and the road to their house is OK, and the power lines bringing electricity to their house are OK, and the fences they and all the other farmers put up are OK, and the non-native animals all over the place are OK, but those wind turbines in the distance, those are visual pollution, they don’t really have a workable definition of “visual pollution” beyond “I think it spoils the view.”
I think you are just arguing from your own personal preferences now. As I’ve already said, one can experience a man-made object as interfering with beauty, but not experience all man-made objects doing so.
You’re right, I am arguing from my own personal preferences. I’m just saying it would be nice if wind turbine opponents would admit they’re doing the same, instead of inventing something called “visual pollution” so they can pretend they aren’t.
As for “powering down”, that’s just modern Ludditism (?). There are certainly efficiency gains to be had, but trying to reduce aggregate demand for energy in the world without mass population culls isn’t mathematically feasible (if it was even desirable).
Environmental protection is entirely consistent with a steady-state population but advancing technology and prosperity – done correctly.
Powering down is in fact feasible, and is what will happen anyway if we don’t do it. Every civilisation that’s collapsed has gone through enforced power down. I think what you mean is that you don’t know how to feed the world without fossil fuels (renewables require fossil fuels). It’s ok, there are people who know how to do this.
I’m theoretically good with the steady state idea, although I tend to think that ship has sailed, but the upteching you are advocating isn’t in fact steady state. Running a high tech society requires fossil fuels and GHG emissions (care to share how to build NZ style-hydro without concrete for instance?).
I would be interested to hear your ideas on population and steady state too.
The Luddites were right btw.
Well, one example of up-teching.
Consider the computing power in your phone – roughly equivalent to a supercomputer of the 60’s that sucked tremendous amounts of electricity. Now we have better functionality and ability to aid/perform tasks, sitting right there in your pocket.
In a resource sense, the old supercomputer physically used a lot more materials. If we keep growing the number of smartphones, obviously we will need to keep mining ad infinitum. But we can currently do a lot more with the same quantity materials than we used to.
But all the resources we have ever mined on earth are still here, they’ve just been converted into different forms. So the stuff from the ground is now in a building or in a landfill somewhere. Currently it’s hugely expensive to recycle, but cheap and abundant energy would solve all those issues along with many others. Soon we will be able to grow meat in a lab, and return farmland to forest.
At the core, it’s all just a physics problem.
TLDR is population level off + efficiency + tech + recycling could get us through without the need for unpalatable situations.
While I appreciate the efficiency argument, I’d point out two things. There is nothing even remotely sustainable about mobile phones in an ecological sense, so any argument around steady state via high tech would need to include how to make cell phones that were modular with replacement parts and that didn’t require destroying other parts of the planet. Which takes us neatly to social/political issues which efficiency has nothing to do with.
There is also the Jevon’s Paradox, which is also not solved by world views that propose high tech solutions to our predicament. Are you sure we are using the same quantity as in the 1960s, because I’m willing to bet we are using many many times more.
I agree with you about better use of resources e.g. mining landfills and more functional recycling, but where is the cheap and abundant energy going to come from?
How will we grow meat in a lab without fossil fuels (assuming it’s a good idea to base diets around, which I doubt)?
Wrong.
The materials can be mined using sustainable methods. Recycling using renewable energy means that once mined they’re available essentially forever.
The only thing that makes them unsustainable is that we have a tendency to throw them in landfills rather than recycling. We need to change that and make recycling mandatory.
We probably are but that’s not due to increasing tech but increasing population. If population had remained the same then the increase in tech level would have seen a decrease in resources used.
Renewable generation. As has been pointed out, there’s enough solar energy striking the Earth to maintain our present energy use without affecting the environment.
By the simple expedient of not using fossil fuels.
– Mandatory recycling protocols
– internalise environmental externalities in both raw material extraction, and industrial production
Won’t work very well without cheap energy, but improving solar and cold fusion might bail us out.
See. There you go again. I’m getting a very strong feeling you believe in perpetual motion machines.
It’s good to focus on economy but you have link it to ecology which no ones done except on the fringes orstudents interpreting the mass of data my and previous generations have collected but don’t fully understand
I totally missed the cold fusion reference. Is that a typo. Please xplain
Renewable energy is incredibly cheap. In fact, it’s always been cheaper than fossil fuels because it doesn’t need continuous inputs of fuel. It just needs the sun burning and it’s going to be doing that for the next five billion years without any help from us.
The problem is we will still be exploiting stored energy whether stored in stars, fission material or fossil fuels. Exploiting these free energy produces background radiation that seeps out of a process we’ve already over used. The only thing for it is to scale back and let Mother Nature work her self out
Further. If industry want to increase efficiency at the margins while acting with in the law they can pay for there own fucking research
“The materials can be mined using sustainable methods”
Rare materials are a finite resource. Yes, technically, if we stabilised the population and decided that only a percentage of them would get mobile phones at any one time, then we could produce them sustainably. But that’s not the situation we are in. It’s a literal impossibility to mine a small mineral resource sustainably at the scale we are talking about.
If you are intent on a somewhat aggressive argument (“wrong”), then I’ll just say that all your theoretical stuff fails when applied in the physical world. This is a classic example.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/mar/11/search-smartphone-soaked-blood
“We probably are but that’s not due to increasing tech but increasing population. If population had remained the same then the increase in tech level would have seen a decrease in resources used.”
Not just increasing population but increased demand per person for goods. We have far more electronics now per person than we used to.
Anyway, go ahead and explain how to build a wind farm without using FF or concrete. And by build, I mean in the real world, not the theoretical possibility.
And fully recyclable.
Yep. Completely agree with that. That’s why I keep saying that we need to set standards for trade. Shoddy practices like those described would immediately prevent trade with that country.
BTW, we do have sources of tungsten in NZ along with all of the other rare earths (which aren’t actually rare BTW).
Yes we do but each device uses far less resources than they used to and they achieve far more. A single 1960s mainframe would probably use more resources than several thousand PCs and yet each single PC far outstrips the capabilities of that mainframe.
Now think about what that would mean if we’d stabilised the population at the three billion of 1960.
No they don’t as I’ve explained to you several times before.
No they don’t as I’ve explained to you several times before.
as you’ve asserted several times before.
iffy.
Just out of curiosity weka, what bits of modern industrial society do you think can’t do without fossil fuels?
Broadly, fossil fuels are either burned for direct process heat, or burned in engines for mechanical power. Renewable electricity can easily substitute for both of those. Powering large ships is going to be difficult with renewables, but could go zero-carbon with nukes. Long-haul aviation needs liquid fuels, which could be biofuels.
Ok Andre, let’s play this out. Two examples then.
1. Wind farms. Please show me how they can be built, in the foreseeable future using zero fossil fuels. You’ll need to include all materials (including mining, transport and processing of materials), as well as all the infrastructure involved in that e.g. the machines used to mine the minerals, the factories that those machines are made in, the materials those factories are made from etc. I get that that is theoretically possible at an abstract level, so I’m asking you to explain how it would work in the work over the next period of time.
2. long haul aviation fuels replaced with biofuels. Where are they going to come from?
weka, it would take weeks to go through every single process, identify which energy input came from fossil fuels and show how it could change to electricity. The question you’ve asked is so general it’s like asking to prove a negative.
But as far as I know, every single step of making a wind turbine could be powered by electricity. For instance, steel-making uses coal both for heat, and to reduce the iron oxide. Coz coal is cheap. But it can be done entirely electrolytically.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/cleaner-cheaper-way-to-make-steel-uses-electricity/
Every mining dump truck, front-end loader that currently runs on diesel could run on electricity. Whether by batteries, overhead wires, or trailing cables. It’s just cheaper and more convenient to use fossil fuels. Oh, and those massive german coal mining machine that can scoop up the volume of an olympic swimming pool in a few minutes? Electrically powered.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagger_288
The crushers and mills for pulverising materials that go into concrete often are already electric. The heat needed for the calcination of cement is usually fossil now (coz it’s cheaper) but can easily be swapped to electricity.
There’s three bits. If you’ve got a specific process you don’t understand how to convert, ask and I’ll help you.
Biofuels – well plenty of agricultural production now goes to really dumb bio-ethanol. It wouldn’t be hard to get smarter about that to make aviation fuel.
I think you misunderstand me Andre. I accept that it’s possible technically. I’m saying that once you try and do it in the real world, it looks really different. This stuff was hashed out by the Peak Oil crowd a decade ago, and that included industry people and engineers etc.
weka, it would take weeks to go through every single process, identify which energy input came from fossil fuels and show how it could change to electricity. The question you’ve asked is so general it’s like asking to prove a negative.
It’s not a general question, it’s specific. People who claim that because it’s technically feasible it must be literally possible at the applied level are the ones talking in generalities. I’m asking you to break it down and show how that could happen given the various limitations of the known physical world. You don’t have to go into every little detail but if you can’t do a cradle to grave analysis please explain what makes you think it’s possible in reality.
Biofuels – well plenty of agricultural production now goes to really dumb bio-ethanol. It wouldn’t be hard to get smarter about that to make aviation fuel.
Likewise with this. It sounds reasonable right? But I’d like to see that broken down into some broad figures on how much fuel is needed per flight, and how much land is needed to grow that fuel, and then how many non-ff resources are needed to process/transport it etc. You’re talking theoretically, I’m asking for some evidence that it would work in practice.
You could do it just for NZ. For the sake of argument, take the number of international flights and cut it in half as our responsibility to grow and process the fuel for it. There will be an interesting calculation there along the lines of how many flights we do per year compared to how long it takes to grow and process each crop.
It works really easily in real time. As the price of fossil fuels go up relative to electricity, more and more processes become cheaper to do electrically than with fossil fuels.
When the price of oil went over $100/barrel I’m aware of several manufacturers went on quick conversion programmes to electric. Only one of which actually completed the conversion before the oil price went back down. The others abandoned their projects, and still run on fossil fuels now.
“It works really easily in real time. As the price of fossil fuels go up relative to electricity, more and more processes become cheaper to do electrically than with fossil fuels.”
That’s the theory, which has been demonstrated on a small scale. You are asserting that it can be done on the whole planet, but there’s nothing you’ve said that I find convincing.
When the price of oil went over $100/barrel I’m aware of several manufacturers went on quick conversion programmes to electric. Only one of which actually completed the conversion before the oil price went back down. The others abandoned their projects, and still run on fossil fuels now.
Right, but they still relied heavily and instrinsicly on ff-based tech. They had all that infrastructure, supply lines etc behind the conversion that was mined, manufactured and run on ff.
You’ve also now neatly highlighted the economic (and likewise political) realities, which I’m actually happy to leave out of the argument for now, because even with the best will in the world I’m not sure what you are suggesting is possible.
It can be done on the whole planet.
The problem is that you’re confusing the need for fossil fuels during the change over period as an ongoing need for fossil fuels for a high-tech economy.
Yes, we’ll continue using fossil fuels until the change over is done and then we won’t because they’re not needed.
The problem is that you’re confusing the need for fossil fuels during the change over period as an ongoing need for fossil fuels for a high-tech economy.
No, I’m not Draco, which you would know if you engaged in conversation instead of making assumptions and telling me I’m wrong. In this conversation I am talking about how to get from where we are now to fully renewables with the current population and standards of living. Neither you or Andre have done anything other than present some theory. Both of you are side stepping the pragmatics of how it could be done.
Long-haul aviation needs liquid fuels, which could be biofuels.
Theoretically could, yes.And you could argue back and forth on the logistics. But since we need to have zero emissions from energy, it ain’t an option (not beyond the very, very short term anyway). And that zero carbon necessity means that no bio-fuel can be used anywhere for energy purposes – probably including my much beloved wood burning stove
🙁
You want air travel there are two options I’m aware of.
1. Hydrogen fueled aircraft (the prototypes were built in the 80s by the Russians – they retrofitted ‘normal’ aircraft)
2. Dirigibles.
Graphene is still an option. Anything that can repurpose carbon is an option
Dunno what graphene is – never heard of it. Bottom line is that by around 2030 -2040, anything with carbon emissions is a ‘no go’ if we want even the slimmest chance of ducking 2 degrees.
Away to see what graphene is now….
A conductor, yes? So not an energy source.
“probably including my much beloved wood burning stove”
Maybe not (although we need to transition to high efficient burners),
while new plantations managed for timber and firewood have no net carbon dioxide emissions and actually take 0.17kg of CO2 out of the atmosphere for every kWhr of heat produced.
https://holmgren.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/41_firewood.pdf
His comparisons initially are with coal-fired electricity and gas (wood is a no brainer), but he appears to be saying that irrespective of comparisons with other forms of energy for heating, firewood has negative emissions if managed properly. I’ve heard Holmgren say that firewood is the only sustainable energy source on the planet (I assume because of it’s ability to sequester more than it emits).
Ae. It’s nano material. It’s just one possible step in along process required to recycle carbon. The thing is. We’ll have to wait for a Thomas Edison, JP Morgan type relation ship to emerge.
Liquid fuels around 45MJ/kg, including tanks. Hydrogen best figure I’ve seen including tanks is 11 MJ/kg. Hydrogen and liquid fuel have about the same efficiency converting chemical energy into mechanical energy. The takeoff weight of a long haul aircraft going for maximum range is around 50% fuel. I just don’t see how that can possibly add up to hydrogen being viable for long haul aviation.
Let alone the other problems with hydrogen, ie where do you get it from and it’s an extremely difficult and dangerous fuel.
Graphene has potential as a next next generation high strength material. You may have heard of carbon nanotubes – they’re essentially sheets of graphene rolled up into a cylinder to make a single layer or multi-layer tube.
Carbon fibre is more or less lots of graphene mushed together to form a really long log (at the micro scale), with the number and type of defects in the structure determining the grade (strength and modulus) of the fibre.
We experienced the same problems with silicon 50 years ago. We solved all that by pumping money into it. We can do the same with graphene. So time isn’t so much an inhibitor
Not iffy at all. All we need fossil fuels for is energy and we can get that elsewhere.
All you do when you assert that we need fossil fuels for these things is prove your ignorance.
Another assertion Draco. It was an autocorrect, it was meant to be fify.
86.%of worlds energy use was supplied by oil,coal and gas (2006)…..while the theory of replacing the likes of earthmoving equipment et al with electric versions sounds feasible (small scale), to replace energy use without a reduction in production would require an almost 8 fold increase (at least) in electricity production and distribution worldwide……and in an impossibly short timeframe.
thanks Pat.
Now we’ve cleared that up. How do you tell some one there a horder
using words?
That fails to explain why we need fossil fuels for these things.
Yes, we’re presently using fossil fuels to supply energy but we don’t need to. This makes weka’s and your assertion that we need fossil fuels for both a high tech economy and renewables wrong.
@DTB….it explains it very clearly to anyone who grasps the concept of dense mobile energy (which oil, gas and coal are) …and the concept of time.
We dont need fossil fuels…..but we cannot produce and service the lifestyles we currently enjoy without them…at least not at scale.
Simple really.
No, it doesn’t explain it at all. It makes a really basic fucken mistake.
don’t be a dickhead….30 years to change over?right, have you any concept of what is involved in an 8 fold increase in electricity generation and distribution? (we won’t worry about any of the other challenges involved )…i suggest not.
there is one way you can hold on to your precious western lifestyle….reduce the worlds population by 86%(or so)
The Jeremy Kyle Show
I have a transcript of Jeremy Kyle’s recent appearance in New Zealand. Anyone interested in me posting it up?
not really.
Okay, that’s a yes. Keep your eyes peeled, fellas!
“These tests show that you’re a LIAR!”
Jeremy Kyle in New Zealand, Monday 9 January 2017
Part One of Two
We join the show near the end of the first segment. Host JEREMY KYLE stands centrestage, holding a large white envelope. To his right are seated HELEN CLARK and HEATHER SIMPSON, to his left sits the disgraced ex-Labour MP SHANE JONES. Hovering close by, ever vigilant, are two burly, black-clad security men….
JEREMY KYLE: All right, now just one more time, let’s get this quite clear: you say you did nothing in that hotel room except work on your Cabinet papers? [He turns to the audience and smirks disdainfully]
AUDIENCE: Ha ha ha!
SHANE JONES: Absolutely.
AUDIENCE: Ha ha ha ha ha!… BULLSH*T!…. He’s the Minister for Porn!…The only papers he was working through was tissue papers!…. Ha ha ha ha ha!
JEREMY KYLE: [waiting for the wave of catcalling and derisive laughter to subside] Well, let’s see what the lie detector tests say. …
[tears open envelope, scans contents, pauses several seconds for effect]….
JEREMY KYLE: These tests show that you’re a LIAR! You weren’t attending to cabinet papers in that hotel room, you were watching PORN!
SHANE JONES: Bugger the lie detector machines! They’re obviously faulty.
AUDIENCE: Ha ha ha ha ha! Not as faulty as the Labour Party candidate selection process!
JEREMY KYLE: These good citizens will be happy, I’m sure, to know that their hard-earned TAXES are going on rental copies of Debbie Does Dallas!
SHANE JONES: Piss off! It wasn’t Debbie Does Dallas, it was Vase de Noces.
….Awkward pause….
JEREMY KYLE: You disGUST me! Get off my show, NOW!
JONES skulks off, clutching the lie detector results slip…
WAGS FROM CROWD: He’s fit only for the ACT cult now!…. He’s got the situation FIRMLY in hand! …. Ha ha ha ha ha! …. Off to the National Party, Jones—that’s where all the wankers go!…. More huzzas, general hubbub, raucous laughter….
HELEN CLARK: [through gritted teeth] I knew it!
HEATHER SIMPSON: [bitterly, to Clark] I TOLD you you should NEVER have made that clown a cabinet minister in the FIRST place, for pity’s sake.
HELEN CLARK: [angrily rising from seat and advancing on SIMPSON] Don’t you DARE criticize my man-management! I ran a tight ship for NINE glorious years.
AUDIENCE: Fight, fight, fight!… Smash ‘er, Heather!
The security men step swiftly between SIMPSON and CLARK…
JEREMY KYLE: Now, now, settle down ladies. This is the Jeremy Kyle Show, not Jerry Springer! Maybe we’ll have you back on the show soon to discuss your legacy, Helen! For now, you go THAT way, and YOU—[pointing to SIMPSON]—go THAT way.
Exeunt CLARK and SIMPSON
JEREMY KYLE: And the best of luck to them. Coming up after the break: this man [close-up of SWORDFISH waiting nervously in green room] says that the people on New Zealand’s leading blog need to COOL IT during this election year and STOP all the SQUABBLING!
Cameras pan over nervous Standardistas waiting to make their entrance: marty mars, weka, Psycho Milt, Sasha and Morrissey.
To be continued…..
.
“Nervously” ???, Mozza, “Nervously” ??? … Never !!! I’ve always been a laid back sort of a Geeza, cool as a cucumber, me. I’d be sitting in the Green Room scheming up ways to subvert the programme by telling a few home truths that highlight Kyle’s remarkably ugly manipulative streak.
Looking forward to the next instalment.
By outrageous coincidence, my 16 year old Nephew (living in the UK) is a massive JEREMY KYLE fan (in common, no doubt, with most English 16 year old lads). His parents have spent a few years trying to wean him off the show (to no noticeable effect).
Shhh better not let this news get to the public, wonder if the Herald or Stuff will bother mentioning it. (The Herald had a link to the story, click on the link and it is a 404 page not found)
“Figures obtained by the Taxpayers’ Union under the Official Information Act show that to date Kiwi taxpayers have forked out $7.7 million to the Clinton Foundation’s “Health Access Initiative” with $2.5 million and $3 million earmarked for 2017 and 2018 respectively.”
This pisses me off no end, dodgy Clinton foundation and our government decides that taxpayers are giving millions of dollars to it.
What kind of dumb arse explanation will the outgoing government provide for this ‘donation’? Especially with all the scandal around the Clinton Foundation to start with. FFS.
Here’s an idea, how about using NZ tax payer money for NZer’s.
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1701/S00040/government-set-to-give-clinton-foundation-another-55m.htm
Maybe this explains things a little more clearly. Can’t say I take anything the Taxpayers Onion comes with seriously.
http://publicaddress.net/hardnews/taxpayers-union-still-stupid-cynical-and/
If I understand this correctly, you’re endorsing a National Party front organisation whose press release includes the line “…New Zealand’s faux pas in co-sponsoring the UN Security Council resolution condemning Israel on Christmas Eve…” and suggesting that the NZ government stop all foreign aid (“NZ tax payer money for NZer’s”). Is that really what you wanted to say?
Using information from =/= endorsing.
Sure. However, promoting bullshit from on Open Mike == endorsing.
…dodgy…
[citation needed]
Are you determined to make common cause with Breitbart?
Do some independent thinking, Cinny.
1) The Taxpayers Union is a front for ACT-ites.
2) Why do you assume that everything with the name “Clinton”on it is “dirty”? Who fed you that line? (Clue, he likes to blow his own trumpet.)
3) Are you seriously saying that NZ shouldn’t spend any money on foreign aid? Because, if you are, that’s a despicable attitude.
Check out the posting, links and comments on just put up:
Stop apologising for the corrupt Clintons.
That money should have gone into our own foreign relief aid efforts in the Pacific, not into an attempt to curry favour with the next Clinton Administration.
Stop making shit up.
That’s good advice. You should c.c. the Democratic Party’s desperate propagandists.
https://www.democracynow.org/2017/1/5/glenn_greenwald_on_dearth_of_evidence
I tried forwarding some helpful advice to democrat_propaganda_unit@wetdream.org, but got the autoreply “morrissey isn’t in right now, but when he gets close to planet earth he’ll get back to you with some barely-legible ranting”.
I find Morrissey both enlightening and entertaining.
I get neither from him.
He’s a delusional fool. But at least he doesn’t seem to be a damned liar like CV, so there’s that going for him, I guess.
He’s entertaining McFlock. He knows he’s exaggerating but that’s part of the fun… you take it into consideration. My Dad was the same. We knew to halve everything he said but he was also entertaining in the process.
LOL
I enjoy Morrisys transcripts …………..
When Stunned mullet or James post …………. Its like someone slipping a dick pic into the thread ….
Piss and wind being the usual contribution from them …..
2017 could be a tough year to be knob spam …….
Bill English can not carry out the walking ‘fake news’ con job that John Key was packaged up as …….
I think it’s also accurate to say Winston beat key …… again…………..
and if Keys Tax Haven/cheating laws are properly dismantled it will be 100% defeat …
I’m picking Keys legacy will embroil the all blacks into a scandal in the near future ….
Lowering their mana and support …
I haven’t seen that much use of ellipsis since the days of Phil Ure…..
The question that I always come up with is: Why do these countries need aid?
At no point should a country ever need aid or foreign investment. They have their own resources, their own people, and thus can create their own money to utilise those resources creating their own economy.
I suspect that the real problem that needs to be addressed is the colonisation of these countries by foreign bankers and capitalists.
Thankies RB for the link, much appreciated.
1. Doesn’t really matter to me whom the taxpayers union is aligned to, but that’s interesting that you say it’s a front for ACTites. Will def do some more reading/research.
2. Nope no one fed me that line. Gosh certainly not Agent Orange. I do take on board much info, but do like to come to my own conclusions, and am happy to change my mind if more info comes to light. Only a stubborn fool would be stuck in one mindset, or gather info from an echo chamber or limited sources/sites.
3. Foreign aid is fine by me, as long as it is used for those that need it. And with our country in so much debt, recovering from earthquakes, as well as making sure we have reserves to help any in the pacific islands should they have another disaster (because that is important IMHO), it makes me think that such a generous donation to that particular organisation is in bad taste.
Just thought I’d mention I’m a supporter of increasing our refugee quota.
I wonder what other ‘donations’ there are and to whom?
This appears to have only come to light via an OIA, so what else is happening that they would rather us not know about?
I mean if it was a great organisation, wouldn’t the government be proud to donate money to it? Wouldn’t the public feel proud to know they were helping people whom were suffering more than they are? So wouldn’t they be making it
a publicity press opportunity. And that’s a bit of a crux for me, it appears to be all a bit slim shady.
Been a primo day here, time for me to do some reading 😀
If it’s okay for the government to give public money that was earmarked for ‘Foreign Aid’ to the Clinton Foundation (a private concern), then presumably it’s okay to give that same money to other private concerns like (oh – I dunno) The Bill Gate’s Foundation, The George Soros Foundation, the Ford Foundation.. the White Helmets…
I’m no statist, but if we’re going to throw crumbs and bones from our banquet by way of foreign aid monies, I’d fully expect the public purse to fund orgs and programmes that had high degrees of public oversight…such as other government bodies. ..or to recognised aid agencies (eg Oxfam) for specific projects/programmes.
The donations were indeed for specific projects, the CHAI is a recognised agency, and it has admin costs probably better than anything the government does directly.
Seems all your boxes are ticked.
Robert Guyton and weka
This was interesting on radionz yesterday – have picked up item about different veges than usual from afficiando like Robert.
http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/summer-days/audio/201829571/seeking-unusual-vege-varieties
food environment
10 Jan 2017
Seeking unusual vege varieties
From Summer Days with Jesse Mulligan, 11:25 am on 10 January 2017
[link and quoting fixed – weka]
Thanks, greywarshark. Makes me think, if I move, I’ll move to a flat where I can have a garden. There’s a limit to what I can grow in a pot.
I do like leeks, courgettes and silverbeet – do grow the latter, have had difficulty growing leeks.
I like the potato onion suggestion.
thanks grey!
For future reference, can you please link to the RNZ page, not the audio? RNZ are not using permanent URLs for their audio, but instead audio IDs that link to a person’s history, so your link went to the last audio I listened to. If you link to the page instead (with the details of the content), then that will be a permanent link and the same for everyone. That page will also give the various options for listening e.g. stream or download, rather than just the stream which isn’t suitable for everyone. Cheers.
OK I’ll try weka but I can’t always get to a place where I can do what I want to do – get message that I can’t be transferred for some bloody reason. I am sick of it being so difficult. So sometimes if I can’t get the right thing I will just have to put what I can get. I have to limit my time on the computer, but like to pass interesting stuff on. But have to keep a kitchen timer beside me – so old-fashioned! And proud of it. I don’t want to be completely controlled by machines and web designers thinking up new ways to make me feel inadequate and out of touch. Bah,
Why RNZ couldn’t give all the previous options with a pretty format when they updated their site I don’t know. I think a lot of these programming types wouldn’t know their A from their E and simply work from the latest instruction book as to what is ‘best practice’ until the next disruption occurs! Strike it also on Trademe, where for no apparent customer advantage something will change and a useful option vanish.
Industry lobbyists DairyNZ, who lost their recent complaint against a truthful Greenpeace tv advert, get a right spanking from Rachel Stewart: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11779636
Jordy-boy Williams of Taxpayers Union fame is having a tantrum after discovering the NZ Govt. has donated 7.7 million dollars of “tax payers money” to the Clinton Foundation. This is a charitable organisation which apparently has been highly praised by philanthropy experts:
From Wikipedia:
But what is upsetting Jordy-boy most is the fact that Donny-boy Trump won’t like it one little bit and we mustn’t upset the orange fella. How dare the NZ govt. support a charity set up to provide humane assistance to the disadvantaged wherever and whoever they may be!
This is my paraphrasing of the Herald item because guess what: the highlighted online news clip has suddenly become “not available“.
Oh and in case the likes of CV and other Trump lovers interpret the above as evidence of Clinton adulation… I am a strong admirer of Bernie Sanders.
Separate discussion opened up: /the-great-taxpayers-union-fraud-and-corruption-discovery
“The foundation “has won accolades from philanthropy experts and has drawn bipartisan support”.
Didn’t the Clinton foundation pay for Chelsea Clinton’s marriage?
Didn’t they pay for Chelsea Clinton’s gift tax on money her parents gave to her?
And the government is tossing in millions to it?
Who says so? The Trump? Or one of his totally corrupt mates? There’s plenty of em – everywhere.
Google is your friend. It can help you to not look like a credulous idiot.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2017/01/04/did-the-clinton-foundation-pay-for-chelseas-wedding/?utm_term=.2aa8135f2bed
The CIA associated WaPo? LOL!
For Barfly
Just seen an excellent example of what I’m taking about @ 9.3.3
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rod-emmerson/news/article.cfm?a_id=147&objectid=11779873
A heckler at a UK Brexit meeting told an economy professor that his GDP figures were not for her economy. And this article shows why she is correct.
If economists tout GDP as signs of a healthy strong economy, but many people around the country (whether UK or NZ) are not getting the benefits, then there’s something wrong with the way economists are measuring the strength of an economy:
Article by Aditya Chakrabortty
It’s all about how the statistics are used by economists…. or alternatively, they could just get out and about and see what the reality is for diverse people on the ground.
Oh boy. Popcorn time. Whether there’s anything to this, or it’s some elaborate hoax, either way it’s a grenade in the longdrop.
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/01/10/politics/donald-trump-intelligence-report-russia/index.html
As Glenn Greenwald tweeted, whatever the truth of the weakly verified reports from the US intelligence agencies, there’s now open warfare between the intelligence services and Trump.
Also Greenwald and others speculating that the CIA is retaliating to Trump being critical of the intelligence services.
I have no doubt that both the Russia and US intelligence services have sophisticated surveillance and black ops capabilities. I have no way of knowing exactly what is going on in this covert warfare.
He’s done.
Well, that’s an entertaining read. I’m keeping a truckload of salt handy, though. Pending reliable confirmation.
I gotta say, you always bring out the good stuff.
Ah well, nothing verifiable – but lots of peeing jokes on twitter like “tinkle, tailor, soldier, spy.”
A bit more discussion around the memos and rumours they’ve been floating around DC for months.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-russia-cnn-kompromat_us_58757682e4b03c8a02d3dbd7?zb8h2bw66gxzp8pvi
#PEEOTUS
#goldengate
Golden Shower jokes
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/golden-shower-twitter-real-life_us_5875a89be4b092a6cae3e190?yqfa1r20pyaqhncdi
this is like a spy novel, the sleeper awakened.
He’s really pissed off.
Well, considering the usual ratio of truth and lies from Trump, that denial increases my confidence the stuff’s legit.
This article from before the election hints at the controversy.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/10/veteran-spy-gave-fbi-info-alleging-russian-operation-cultivate-donald-trump
Poor old lefty liberals. Still fighting the last war.
Ten days to 16 years of Trump rule.
(Assuming the CIA don’t successfully use their regime change skills on their homeland.)
16 years ?…do tell…
It’s a wind up.
oh is trolling and starting flame wars OK now ?
Two terms of Donald, and then two terms from one of the kids, as Mrs Melania is foreign born and not eligible, though Donald could get that changed. There are five kids, so why not 48 years coming up Trumps? 🙂
Jesus mac1. Trying to give us ‘fellow’ oldies heart attacks are you? 😮
In other countries it’s called the monarchy and is A Good Thing. You know, Liz followed by Charlie, then Billy, then Teddie et Al (whoever Al is.)
Reported by ‘Mother Jones’ at the back end of October.
So why now? As in, why the sudden ramping up? Why not back then?
Haven’t read the links provided below yet about the US eating itself, but
Why now? That question alone will probably account for a few tubs of popcorn.
I’m rather confident that document is fake. I’m no Trump fan but the story on the report says something like it’s from a former Brit Spy – D I doesn’t say who he worked for but I guess MI6.
After looking over the docs, it’s nothing like any Intel Report I’ve even seen. And I’ve seen a written a few.
I don’t have time to pull it to bits, but will if enough people want it, but here’s my brief summary:
The document isn’t laid out anything like a Intel Report, or even a gist report. So the format is the main thing that leads me to believe it’s fake.
Now, what would this guy know I hear you ask… Well as our Intelligence services are based on MI6 MI6 and most other police or military. Our agencies follow very similar protocols and procedures… Including the way Intel reports, Gist reports etc are written. So NZ Intel reports are based in format / layout on the UK Intel Reports.
This doc looks nothing like a genuine Intel report written by a person who should know what one not only looks like, but how it should be formatted.
So, the format is just wrong, although it looks like they (the writers tried however) Them comes the content. It’s not written in a way that someone trained to write these reports would do. It’s shit, really. Like I said. I’m willing to go through it bit by bit and show you the mistakes, incorrect use of terms, lack of using real terms. Making comments wrapped in ()
So, I don’t think this is a silver bullet. It’s fake, obviously written by people who knew enough to put the content together, and leak it. I’m not going to answer who I think it is. But the way things are sharpening up, this won’t be the last one of these.
Again, if people want a full synopsis of the leaked report and why I think it’s fake, just ask and I’ll go through it bit by bit.
Rob Gilchrist
So if the 35 pages is just something made up by a fantasist, what are the intel agencies using as a basis for their announcement? Or have the intel agencies lost the plot so badly one will publicly announce more investigations into one candidate 10 days before the election (against protocol with apparently no reasonable evidence and very dubious legal grounds), then this, 10 days before the inauguration of the other one, (who was arguably assisted in victory by the previous dodgy announcement).
Popcorn. Lots of popcorn.
Good call by the union:
Attention Micky-savage ,back in the 1970s the late Bob Reece of Hamilton who you may remember told me that the LP had patented the silver fern badge . So if this is the case how is it that that the Nat’s
are often seen wearing what looks very much like our silver fern membership badge .?
It won’t be a patent. You can’t copyright physical items. A registered trademark then? But those lapse if granted and not used.
Will ask PP.
“Ngapuhi elder now backs PM’s Waitangi no show: ‘I wouldn’t go either'”
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11780428
Whoops: /refining-that-dog-whistle/
“Bill English has used a proposal for timing of his Waitangi speech to wrongly claim that he is being silenced. And most of the media bought it.”
The media bought it?
They sold it, more like.
Sad day for National when their voters look to Kingi Taurua for support.
One can be fairly sure the Herald will be loving this.
Full of incendiary anti-Russian rhetoric and selective morality,
Hopey-Changey’s last hurrah is a model of hypocrisy and dishonesty.
Chicago, Tuesday 10 December (U.S. time)
I’ve just heard the man that Jim Mora calls “the greatest orator of our time” quoting Atticus Finch—the “walk a mile in someone’s shoes” quote from To Kill A Mockingbird. Incredibly, he doesn’t seem to realize that Atticus Finch could give Jeff Sessions a run for his money when it comes to bigotry. [1]
Hopey-Changey’s brain-dead cheer squad didn’t seem to mind, though. These zombies even cheered when he boasted about how he’s “halved our dependence on foreign oil”—forgetting that he’s presided over a stratospheric increase in fracking, and has been a stubborn advocate of expanding nuclear energy production.
He’s just spoken of “violent fanatics who claim to speak for Islam”, but said nothing about violent fanatics who claim to speak for Judaism, or Christianity. [2] Nor did he mention that for the last six years the United States has been supporting, in Syria, the most violent and fanatical of all the violent fanatics who claim to speak for Islam.
He’s also just praised the “effectiveness of our law enforcement agencies”, as though all those police executions of unarmed black children across the United States had never happened. The crowd, which no doubt is largely comprised of self-described “liberals”, cheered even louder after that lie.
[1] https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jul/11/atticus-finch-racist-go-set-watchman
[2] http://www.thepoliticalinsider.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/obama_netanyahu_2_.jpg
When did Jim Mora know anything?
It’s quite sad listening to his fawning to the establishment.
Morrissey, have a look at the reply I gave you about Atticus Finch over in the other line where you posted this comment. Better still, read To Kill a Mockingbird (which is not the same book as Go Set a Watchman – hint, they have different titles – and does not feature the same character as the one who’s discussed in your link – that’s about a different book – an early draft that was abandoned and never intended for publication).
Bill asked me to back up some opinions I had on this thread so I’ve done that. Here it is for the afternoon crowd.
OK Bill. There was no search button on the front page so I did some googling\
You’ve dismissed any suggestion that the positive reporting coming out of Aleppo might be biased.
You’ve mocked images of a wounded child and reporting from inside Aleppo which didn’t match your narrative.
You’ve shrugged and said “Everyone’s bombing residential neighbourhoods” to avoid people talking about Russain atrocities
You’ve denied that there’s civil war in Syria implying the only resistance to Assad is foreign fighters.
But I apologize. I should obviously have said “I have the IMPRESSION you are actively whitewashing the brutality of Assad’s regime and implying that anyone who thinks he’s a genocidal monter is uninformed and brainwashed.” I’ll be more careful in future.
“I have the IMPRESSION you are actively whitewashing the brutality of Assad’s regime and implying that anyone who thinks he’s a genocidal mon[s]ter is uninformed and brainwashed”
Thanks Wainwright. That turns out to have been a useful exercise. A nice little summary and I share your impression.
A nice little summary…
Wainwright’s attack on Bill is actually a nasty little smear. He could be trying for a job with the DNC.
…and I share your impression.
No you don’t. You know Bill does not support Assad, just like “Wainwright” knows it.
“No you don’t. You know Bill does not support”
IMO, you’ve just done something quite similar to what Wainwright was accused of which led to this summary – stating as a fact what what is actually your opinion about how I think.
I certainly do share Wainwright’s impression. I interpreted Bill’s comments in a similar way to Wainwright at the time they were made, and have not seen anything since that has changed my mind.
You are a liar.
[Relax MV has addressed the issue. No need for this – MS]
That’s harsh Morrissey… and wrong.
Sorry Miravox, I just fired it off without thinking. I know you’re not a liar. I was thoughtless and irresponsible to write it, and there’s no excuse.
While you’re there, Mickey, I’ve just had two messages for the “Obama’s last Speech” adulation thread bounced. I did not swear or engage in the sort of ad hom. nonsense that I unleashed on poor old Miravox.
So why am I being bounced? I presume you are not the one doing it.
[Nothing in the pending comments list. Will check – MS]
[Nothing in the pending comments list. Will check – MS]
Thanks Bill. This feels really sinister. I posed four serious questions to Sacha, asking her to defend her contention that old Hopey Changey had made an “inspiring” speech in Chicago.
Looks like either she’s not up to the challenge of responding or someone is stomping on our right to politely and intelligently dissent.
[there were 2 comments in the Trash, I’ve released them now. Nothing nefarious, it happens randomly, to many of us, including authors. You’ve been here long enough to know this Morrissey, so stop with the conspiracy stuff please – weka]
All my comments got put into pending because Bill didn’t like what I said. Do I get to imply there’s a dark conspiracy of Standard authors suppressing the truth too? 🙄
[all your comments got put into Pending because you accused an author of something they didn’t do. That’s premoderation and it’s one of the tools at a moderator’s disposal to make moderating easier and to teach commenters where the boundaries. Can you please reread the Policy, because it states clearly that it’s not ok to attack authors. Stop and think about it. If we moderated based on dislike, between the groups of us most comments would disappear. While we are all broadly on the left, there is a large range of views and opinions held by authors who moderate.
Sometimes people’s comments go into moderation randomly, but it’s amazing to me how many people assume something nefarious is going on despite it regularly being pointed out that this happens. I’m now putting you back in premoderation until I can see you’ve acknowledged this comment – weka]
Yes weka, I know. That was my point. Sometimes comments go into moderation. Morrisey’s the one trying to paint himself as the Edward Snowden of the Standard.
Did you see my point about your comments about Bill? He didn’t moderate you based on ‘like’. This is an important point.
I already apologised for it. I guess I’ll do it again. Bill moderated me for making a direct statement instead of making it clear I was stating an opinion that my impression is he obfuscates criticism of Assad’s regime. He also doesn’t “like” my opinion but has not moderated me for it. Message received.
[You still don’t get it, offer up half arsed ‘apologies’ and (I noticed way after the fact) took the opportunity to launch some smart arsed/half arsed attack on an Open Mike after someone else had prematurely released you from your first stint in pre-mod. Anyway…] – Bill
[I wasn’t asking you to apologise Wainwright, I wanted to know if you would acknowledge why you were moderated. It might not seem important to you, but there is a line around criticising moderators and you stepped over it. I thought you did well to back up why you said what you did originally but still apologise, I just wanted to be sure you understood where the line is. Suffice to say that moderator patience is wearing thin at the moment, so how about making our job easier? Out of premod now – weka]
Thanks very much, weka. I thought I was being a bit paranoid—and it turns out I was.
All good – apology accepted.
Never said Bill “supported” Assad.
The full transcript of Obama’s farewell speech:
http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-pol-obama-farewell-speech-transcript-20170110-story.html
I would love to hear any New Zealand politician make a set piece speech as good as this.
“As good as this?” What part did you like best?—The incendiary and hypocritical goading of Russia? The praising of U.S. “law enforcement” officers? The blather about “violent fanatics” that he has armed and diplomatically supported in Syria since 2011?
Your comment, analysis-free as it is, shows nothing more than cultural cringe and an alarming susceptibility to soaring bloviation.
I assume he meant in the gravitas and delivery. US politics has a certain pomp and dignity to it (most of the time).
Contrast to the Key/Cunliffe debate.
“Naaa, ya with Dotcom”
Of course. I forgot how dignified American politicians are….
http://people.com/politics/trump-denies-mocking-journalist-disability-watch-video/
The thing is, Morrissey, a lot of other people actually get the concept that a president or prime minister represents everybody in their country, that not all of those people share Morrissey’s opinions, and that the president/pm must nevertheless address his speeches to all of them. Perhaps if you write to him he’ll write you a speech that’s carefully tailored to your own opinions, but I wouldn’t get your hopes up.
Stop talking sense
Morrissey has a North Shore cliff with a favourite spot that he gets to declaim in the evening to all the fallen gods and prepare great idealistic worlds for himself to live in. If only his genius were understood.
…and that the president/pm must nevertheless address his speeches to all of them.
Imagine if instead of embarking on another anti-Russian rant like he did, and canting about “values” and heaping praise, without any discernible irony, on American “law enforcement”, Obama had actually DONE something meaningful, like dropping all charges against Edward Snowden, and releasing—immediately, with compensation—Chelsea Manning.
Morrissey you are the left’s worst misanthrope.
Why not just shut yourself down for election year and come back once there’s a result later in the year. Save yourself the grief.
Morrissey you are the left’s worst misanthrope.
A misanthrope is someone with a generalised loathing of humankind. I actually feel quite positive about most people, and am charitable towards most, including my opponents—the ones who aren’t unbearably hostile, that is. I do loathe nearly all politicians, however, and their servants, whether they are paid to tell lies in the diplomatic corps [1] or paid to tell lies in the de facto propaganda corps. [2]
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8sHzxILZMk
[2] http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article32557.htm
You should check yourself for soaring bloviation before you start accusing anyone else.
Lange was the most recent NZ politician to impress as an orator, since then no one has really stood out.
He was a better speaker than Obama.
Lange survived on a few bon mots and some native cunning.
He couldn’t hold a candle to a single Obama set piece.
I’m sure having a team of professional speech writers with plenty of time to spend on the speech helps.
Of course we know now if a noble peace prize winner says no more war, he’s wrong
You want to extrapolate Obama’s actions/words out to all Nobel Prize winners?
Prior to 2008 they where all correct. After that they where all dead wrong
Obama’s handlers presented him as a blank slate, in other words you can write what ever you like. There are a few slogans, hope/unity/change, now write down what ever you like in between. It does arouse enthusiasm and we can understand why. More than 80% of the population thinks America and the world are going the wrong way. For most people in the US in the last 40 years it’s been a hard hard battle you can’t underestimate. And it’s a rich country which isn’t like living in Southern Africa but real wages declined for 40 years. There’s growth but it’s being hoarded by very few pockets. Health care/Benefits/wages have declined, this isn’t the work of a Nobel peace prize winner, this is the work of a charlatan. There isn’t anything to show for it other than keeping subsidising private inefficiencies.
There is tremendous dissatisfaction with institutions and that’s generalised right across the world. There’s a lot of talk about labour low poll ratings but parliament poll ratings is lower. In fact all institutions are not trusted and disliked. There is a sense everything is going wrong. So when you say hope/unity/change and talk eloquently and so on. Herd it all a million times
Reasons to be glad that Hopey-Changey’s leaving
No. 1: No more of Samantha Power’s hypocritical cant.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/samantha-power-un-us-ambassador-america-syria-aleppo-massacres-srebrenica-rwandan-genocide-bizarre-a7476556.html
No 2. No more peace prizes given to a war mongering president.
No 3. No TPPA.
No 4 no more whining from Paul and Morrissey
Sorry, Red, that’s not going to stop.
Not whining – celebrating the end of the TPPA.
this one made me think of you Weka
https://theestablishment.co/im-a-disabled-woman-who-s-not-celebrating-meryl-streep-s-golden-globes-speech-8d67173122e7#.ygjx8h6ty
what did you think of the article xanthe?
I thought she put a very different viewpoint, that really made me see it differently, somehow nnon confrontational, i was moved somewhat.
Nice one Xanthe.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/10/trump-could-slash-civil-service-pay-to-1-armageddon-rule
the life of an American public servant would appear to be an unhappy one as of 1/21/2017
more stirling work by Gordon Campbell….
http://gordoncampbell.scoop.co.nz/2017/01/11/gordon-campbell-on-why-tax-cuts-in-2017-would-be-a-bad-idea/#more-4727
‘Keep Kansas in mind this year when our politicians begin to try to sell the notion that tax cuts are a responsible form of economic management. They’re not. They’re a bag of sweets, a bribe to win your vote. Beyond the sugar hit, they’ll do nothing to fix the problems facing the country, and will also do nothing to make this country safer or more prosperous for your kids.”
good advice ……we don’t need any more type2 diabetes.