I don’t think we’re quite as stuffed as the author makes us out to be or at least not in the short to medium term.
There’s one key issue she missed out and that is consumer enthusiasm to these new types of food, the whole frankenfood, heavily processed mindset is going to take quite a bit of time to overcome.
Positioning ourselves going forward though, organics has to be the future for NZ food production aim for those people who still want their food “natural’
Yes there is a resistance to ‘frankenfoods’ and there is also a growing grasp of the connection between a plant based diet and a lower carbon footprint.
That and the growing realisation that cows milk is not actually good for us.
I agree that organically is the way forward.
I also don’t recommend Cowspiracy, as it is a fundamentalist vegan propaganda film that takes far too many liberties with the truth in presenting its argument. I’ve critiqued this before – It seems to be comparing industrial stock farming with industrial agriculture and deciding that industrial agriculture is best. Both are highly polluting and destroy ecologies. Swapping one for the other out of ideological concerns just creates different problems, what we need to do instead is make all farming sustainable and regenerative.
A review of the film,
Responding to a polemic that plays as fast and loose with facts as this film could easily devolve into a line by line response, which would be even more boring to read than it would be to write. Instead, I’ll focus on a few of the main topics, beginning with how cows drink, burp, fart, and most of all poop, which – not to brag – I have some experience with.
Methane is a more vexed question, since cows indisputably belch and fart. In the film Anderson implies that cows are the main source of methane and that reducing their numbers is the fastest way to reverse global warming. After too much time poking around in search of definitive numbers on methane emissions, I decided to use those provided on a NASA website, even though a number of reputable sources arrive at different conclusions, particularly concerning the amount of methane released by wetlands, listed at 22% in the data I am quoting. By these numbers, ruminant livestock directly account for 16% of global methane emissions, and the (mis)management of all livestock manure accounts for another 5%. Human sewage treatment is 5%, biomass burning is 8%, fossil fuels production is 19%, and, surprisingly, rice cultivation is 12%. Various other manmade and natural sources fill out the remainder. While 21% of total methane is certainly significant, the idea that the elimination of livestock would clearly lead to a reversal of global warming trends is both an overstatement and an oversimplification, without getting into matters of methane’s half-life relative to carbon’s.
The great weakness of Cowspiracy, other than its title, is its single minded determination to prove that veganism is the only reasonable approach to feeding people, a proof it pursues without regard for facts or nuance. That’s not to say it’s worthless, for there are ideas for several good films within it. I would love to watch a truly investigative examination of any links between the industrial agriculture sector and large environmental non-profits, rather than one that infers connections from the vague responses of uncomfortable PR people. A devastating documentary could be made about the insanity of beef and dairy production in California, and I am all for consumers voting against them and other parts of the industrial food system with their dietary choices. I even think a fair examination of the ways small farms are not inherently better for land and livestock would be wonderful. Instead of any of these there is a failed effort to prove that one lifestyle choice can solve every environmental and agricultural problem.
This failure is not just a result of misleading and erroneous data, but even more so of superficiality. Though I watched carefully and took copious notes, I do not have a clear idea what Anderson’s vegan world would look like. Would excess land be converted to wilderness? Should the hills and fields of my farm return to forest and scrub like so much of the nearby land that used to be grass? Why is a monoculture of wheat preferable to a polyculture of pasture? Should we humans be connected to and reliant on the land around us and should these connections take different forms in response to local conditions? Yesterday, while out hunting turkey, I came across the remains of a deer, one of ten or so my brother and I have found this year. All of them starved or froze to death in the clutches of last winter. Now they are piles of mossy bones marking where living things curled up and never stood again. Why is this preferable to raising cows as I do, particularly when there’s room here for both?
I’d also add that in this discussion we need to distinguish between industrial farming designed to produce commodities to make money, and the need to have people growing food so we can eat. They are two different things entirely. Saying we should all be vegan supports industrial farming, because it pushes shifting from feedlot cows to monsanto soy. Neither are viable in a world of CC or a world that desperately needs to protect the environment.
Ta. Run it past Bill. I don’t remember the details (because I think the maths are a distraction), but from what I remember the ag figures are not a good representation of the state of play. Something to do with what they include in ag and what they don’t.
Plus there’s the food miles issue with eating meat (or eating anything).
Don’t know about that Weka, My understanding is that deforestation is included in agriculture among other things, so if you get down just to animal farming you are looking at much less than 14%?
What I do know is that it proves that PAUL’S documentary is a lying piece of propaganda shit.
And just for once, I’d like PAUL to stick around and keep discussing things when the FACTS don’t suit the lying propaganda he is posting….
Guess he’ll just go away for the night and then start up in the morning raving about the lying propaganda that doesn’t agree with his own lying propaganda….
Eating meat is the single most destructive thing you can do to the environment.
Quite apart from being wrong on the face of it (as others have explained), it’s also wrong at a deeper level: eating grass-fed livestock is better for the environment than eating crop plants. Get everyone on the planet eating soy and before long you’ll be wondering why there’s no topsoil any more.
Or, eating grass-fed livestock is the solution. Comes down to whether you prefer some soy-based edible object to a slab of meat or not. Don’t find it a difficult choice, myself, but maybe that’s just me.
‘How would you do that?’
Exactly the same way you would have people shift to perma-culture / power-down’/ go back to manual labour Weka.
You need social agreement it is necessary, and a socially agreed plan to make it happen.
It’s a tough one, but the Worlds population cannot simply keep growing can it?
‘And by how much?’
4 Billion sounds good to me. Take a few centuries to achieve.
‘And how would you stop the remaining people from burning fossil fuels and generally polluting the place?’
I’ve just spent a month in Asia and Europe on business, and from what i saw, my answer would be, ‘wouldn’t have the faintest idea!’.
Aotearoa is a tiny wee cocoon of tranquility. The pace and frenzy of the drive for ‘development’ in the emerging countries is way beyond anything I could envisage a mechanism for holding back.
I don’t think we’re quite as stuffed as the author makes us out to be or at least not in the short to medium term.
Not in the short term. The medium term should be the crossover period and the long term is when we replant our farms as native forest.
There’s one key issue she missed out and that is consumer enthusiasm to these new types of food, the whole frankenfood, heavily processed mindset is going to take quite a bit of time to overcome.
Doubt it. People have been eating ‘frankenfoods’ for awhile – pretty much anything that comes pre-made fits that bill.
I would suggest and am an advocate for more of a Robert Guyton approach where we plant with biodiversity in mind. Natives are at their best supplemented by various imports a favourite plant of mine (or weed to some) is Verbena bonariensis. The insect life, not to mention bees it supports is unreal and it kicks in right after Muehlenbeckia axillaris which bees love.
Talking about NZ going more to organic reminds me that I heard the Falkland Islands were into that.
I think we should establish High Commissioners and set up as sister countries. They seem to have cool headed people making governmental decisions and have ideas that we should talk about, and vice versa. And Falklands are similar to us, next to a hostile country as we are to Australia – which is ready to stand on our shoulders to achieve advantage for themselves and government ready to show disrespect like the boors they are.
Oh, Give Me a Home, Where the Sheep and the … – Modern Farmer
modernfarmer.com/2016/02/falkland-islands/
Feb 4, 2016 – The Falkland Islands are a wildlife sanctuary turned organic
Those Sci-fi books and movies showing machines that could be dialed up from stored ingredients and a synthetic steak pops out of the wall, are maybe a future much closer?
A very interesting article thanks Sacha. Can you imagine the ponderous Government machine adapting to swift changes? What about the poor old dairy farmers?
And how will I manage synthetic steaks? What about the sugar industry?
Actually the whole World economy would be in for a huge shake up?
Those Sci-fi books and movies showing machines that could be dialed up from stored ingredients and a synthetic steak pops out of the wall, are maybe a future much closer?
A very interesting article thanks Sacha. Can you imagine the ponderous Government machine adapting to swift changes? What about the poor old dairy farmers?
And how will I manage synthetic steaks? What about the sugar industry?
Actually the whole World economy would be in for a huge shake up.
I find articles like this really annoying – not due to anything the author writes, but because it rubs my nose in the fact that NZ used to be at the forefront of agricultural science but is no longer, and the outlook isn’t for improvement. We’ve had decades of a deadly combination: right-wing governments hollowing out the country’s public science research facilities, and hippies fighting against scientific experimentation in agriculture. Yes we’re going to get disrupted, and we’ve only ourselves to blame.
I don’t quite agree, What the author was trying to point out that what made us unique and successful( clean green, plenty of space) is no longer important or even needed.
You can now have a “dairy farm” in the middle of the Sahara, you can have a “dairy farm” in the middle of a Nestle chocolate factory.
These “dairy farms” can produce a product that is healthier than the original with no animal cruelty, minimal environmental damage and can be just about anywhere.
it’s unfortunate for NZ but large scale traditional dairying has been or soon will be superseded by this technology, it’s going the way of the dinosaur.
Given the environmental effects of large-scale dairy farming, it would be great if it became a niche business practiced only on a small scale.
I’ve eaten what Americans fondly imagine to be cheese, and believe we don’t need to be seriously threatened by American start-ups of non-agriculture-based food IF we stop holding back our own ag/food research. That’s “if” in capitals and italics because it’s a very big “if” and I don’t see a strong likelihood of us doing it.
One thing I have noticed is how strongly attitudes have changed in regards to the environment/animal welfare, especially with the current generation.
Take for example the electric car, it used to be the only selling point was that it would save you money, now the main selling point is that they’re eco-friendly which means you’re doing your bit for climate change, saving the world etc.
The same mindset is what will make this next generation food popular, thanks to the internet people now know that dairy is terrible for the environment, milk isn’t particularly good for you even though it tastes nice and there’s lots of animal cruelty that goes into the creation of dairy.
That is what’s going to be the big driver of this going forward if the dairy industry wants to compete it needs a radical overhaul and as soon as possible, the longer they leave it the worse it will get for the industry
Just as an aside, the claim that milk isn’t good for you is a canard. Lactose tolerance is a poster boy for human evolution because it spread so rapidly through the population – that rapidity being due to the big survival advantage it conferred. Dairy is excellent food and the people without lactose tolerance are really missing out.
No arguments re the problems associated with it as an industry, though.
I know right. Pfft to commercial agriculture. Shit taste like water and saw dust cause it’s stored longer and less nutritious. BM trying to sell dog shit again
I guess they have proper cheese in delis and suchlike. But in cafes and restaurants I stopped ordering anything that said it had cheese in it, because the bizarre white or orange stuff they were referring to wouldn’t be anything I’d recognise as cheese.
Just gotta love those business consultants.
David Skilling she ain’t.
Bad business consultants like the writer generate answers that always start with:
pile dumploads of private capital into something really risky, and pile dumploads of crap all over everything happening now, and trash every regulation you could possibly imagine might get in your way.
Can anyone tell me where we’ve heard that before?
– Sharemarket in the 1980s and 1990s
– Real estate and residential construction market 2007-2016
– GMOs in the late 2000s, within our CRI’s
– Mining and oil 2008-2015
And each one, tears before bedtime and generations of wasted capital generated fuck-all.
And yet here we are, economy doing about as well as it has ever done in our existence, diversifying as fast as it ever has, but some nutjob with a PhD in wank and a logframe and some travel expenses and a free-hit column and some great billable units to achieve gets to tell us the whole of agriculture is a sunset industry.
She should cut the horse manure and start a new essay with:
What do our customers want, and what will those customers pay the most for?
Douglas actually believed that the reforms he forced upon us would liberate the tech sector. Instead it set it back decades.
The point that he didn’t understand, and probably still doesn’t, is that the tech sector was built by the governments of the world – not free-market capitalists. Capitalists do the cheap and easy stuff that they can make a profit out of while it’s government that does the hard stuff that a profit can never be produced from.
Solar – land and habitat loss, requires significant raw and rare materials mined (rather than just a one-off large concrete pour). Not suitable for all locations due to climate.
Wind – shreds birds. Massive visual blot on the landscape and again not suitable for many locations.
Nuclear – promising but currently suffers from environmental issues due to waste problem. Expensive and vulnerable to technical problems.
Geothermal – great, only works in select locations though.
If we want to go clean, hydro power has a significant role to play, at least in New Zealand. Other countries might find it better to plop large scale solar in the desert or build next-gen nuclear plants, but NZ’s hydro electric backbone is fantastic.
Exactly, I’m going shopping for a new club and fur skin outfit this afternoon.
[you’re a fucking idiot who has no idea what powerdown even means. Don’t troll me, I’m not in the mood. You’re quite capable of engaging in intelligent debate, so I suggest you make some choices along those lines and stop with the soundbite baiting – weka]
What Johm Key has done to New Zealand as prime minister is similar to a friend who bought a WRX straight off the dock, pulled out to the lights to see how fast he could do a 1/4 mile and cooked the engine. Only in New Zealand’s case it’s going to take at least 20 years to become apparent that National can’t drive for shit.
who bought a WRX straight off the dock, pulled out to the lights to see how fast he could do a 1/4 mile and cooked the engine.
*facedesk*
Paying $120 to get such a vehicle carried to your local mechanics for a thorough going over, all new fluids and filters, BEFORE hammering it is the way to do it
Powering down, as you label it, isn’t really an option – it’s a necessity.
Putting all of the non-fossil suggestions that Brutus has mentioned in place would take decades – assuming we undertook such a task. And if our energy consumption patterns continued ‘as is’ while all that infrastructure got put in place, then carbon budget after carbon budget would get busted and the average global surface temperature would keep going up.
And I know you kind of hate numbers, but effective powering down isn’t a uniform scenario that can or even ought to be equally applied across all of society (or all societies). There is a huge class element involved due to the major culprits in terms of emissions tending to be richer people. (Roughly, the wealthiest 10% are responsible for about 50% of emissions according to studies done by Oxfam and others)
And richer people tend to be resistant to giving up their privilege and ‘ways’ – they’ll find a way adapt to a changing climate. Delusional, I know. As Yoda might say – the ‘she’ll be right’ is strong in those ones.
And richer people tend to be the ones heading up institutions we’ve tasked with organising and managing responses to climate change.
Nothing up-beat from this quarter today I’m afraid. There’ll be calamities. But since the first will be affecting (are affecting) poorer people far away in equatorial and tropical regions, we’ll just carry on. Eventually the effects will come down on our heads (on the poorest first and hardest of course) and the rich will likely just kind of carry on as best they can (move house, emigrate, lay in highly individualistic or atomised adaptation measures etc).
thanks for going into that in more depth Bill. And yep, class and CC.
It’s not so much that I don’t like the numbers, it’s that the I think the wrong maths are being done or at least some important maths isn’t being done yet. For instance, if what you say is true, that rich people disproportionately create/are responsible for more the problem (I believe this too), and that we therefore shouldn’t apply the power down uniformly across the nation (I also agree), and that therefore we should focus on rich people not poor people (I’m talking in NZ here, not somewhere like Somalia), then I’d say we need a different analysis as well. As you know, I think that most people in NZ need change, not just rich and well off people.
For instance, if we were to look at, in NZ, stopping all fossil fuel power generation, decommissioning dams, and possibly building some interim wind farms but acknowledging that they have their own problems, what standard of living could we expect in NZ? (and allowing for this being a thought experiment, so I get that there are all sorts of other things to take into account like transport and agriculture). Whose standard of living could we sustain? Middle class? Lower middle class? Working class? Underclass? BM’s fantasy of cave dwelling?
This is similar to when I talk about food and population. If we need to source most of our food locally and sustainably/regeneratively, how much food can we grow in each catchment in NZ?
It’s just another approach. I come to it from permaculture, which starts with those ecological principles and works out. I’d like to think about that more in terms of class, not just at the social justice level but also because I think that many of us are going to have to do physical work again (e.g. growing food). If we have a culture hell bent on ‘working class’ being something to avoid or move out of, how is that going to work out?
“but effective powering down isn’t a uniform scenario that can or even ought to be equally applied across all of society (or all societies).”
That’s an interesting way to approach this too. If by uniform you mean everyone takes a % cut downwards, then yep that’s grossly unfair and probably wouldn’t be helpful anyway. But if by uniform we look at a range of standards of living to aspire down to or up to depending on where one is currently, then I can see that being both useful and fair.
Your fantasies of some sort of communal agrarian society inevitably clash with human nature.
Assuming we were to all “return to the land”, the problem isn’t solved. Pre-industrial societies also suffered ecological devastation due to overpopulation and the inability to preserve and ration resources – as Easter island showed.
So you would of course need some sort of central authority to enforce environmental regulations in order to prevent the tragedy of the commons. Not only that, by forcing people back into lives of manual labour, considerable inequity would be generated – a society for the young, strong and able bodied effectively. The central authority would need to rectify these imbalances. Such a bureaucracy would require money, energy, and the ability to apply force to ensure compliance.
You end up right back at the beginning – just as agricultural humans originally formed governments to order their affairs and acquire the resources necessary to fulfil the desires of their citizens. Which then becomes just another beast to be fed as different views vie for influence.
And so we are back to square one.
You have to understand, there’s no voluntarily going back. Only war, genocide, pandemics, and natural disasters could “achieve” what you seek.
Our natural population increase in New Zealand is almost zero – that part is taken care of. We can’t dictate to the rest of the world what they do, but we can make appropriate policies for our environment and country.
We already do have them, but they could be tightened further especially given the number of NZ’ers already living overseas. If they all arrived back at once we simply wouldn’t be able to handle it.
Please explain why nothing could be produced in a post fossil world?
Please explain what is so ‘against human nature’ about growing food, raising livestock or living socially (communally)?
Please explain why a central authority is a prerequisite for order?
Please explain your adherence to the utterly discredited notion of ‘the tragedy of the commons’?
Please explain how it would be the case that people in whatever post fossil world would somehow lose the ability for empathy?
Why do you think the choice is between regressing to some mythical misanthropic Hobbesian world or just staying more or less as we are? What happened to the future!
3. Obvious. Communes over time begin to build their own identity to the exclusion of others from developing their own micro-culture. One group/commune organises itself to infringe/take more of the pie. That’s essentially the story of human history.
4. It’s not discredited, but it has been worked around at times. It’s still a reasonable basis for the argument though.
5. You may be empathetic, but in such a society, all it takes is for one group to not be and the party is over.
We know (or it’s claimed) that the poorest 50% of people in NZ produce 10% of NZ’s emissions. So if we want to see a substantial ‘overnight’ drop in NZ energy related emissions, then everyone would have to be living as half of us already do.
Homelessness aside, know anyone who lives in a cave? I don’t.
So okay. The business trips and the global jaunts and the various consumer goods with the huge carbon footprints that most of us can’t buy anyway….gone.
Throw in legislation around efficiency ratings on cars, fridges, etc and a fair few of us would see our standard of living rise (less money spent on the fuel needed to run the various contraptions/appliances) I should add that there is currently little or no price difference between a hugely efficient appliance or car and a crap one.
That (getting on for) 90% drop in emissions would have minimal to no negative impact on most of us and (with an eye to whatever piddly carbon budget we still have left) buy us some time to lay in the supply side infrastructure that we’d need achieve the necessary zero emissions from energy.
Throwing this last bit in just because it astounds me.
Globally, if just the highest emitting 10% of US citizens dropped their emissions to a European average (which is still really bloody high), global emissions would drop by 30%.
Solar – land and habitat loss, requires significant raw and rare materials mined (rather than just a one-off large concrete pour). Not suitable for all locations due to climate.
Well, the land and habitat loss is non-existent: Solar roadways and, of course, house roofs.
And, yes, solar does work in all climates. As long as the sun is up a solar panel will collect power. Of course, solar panels should be used in conjunction with other renewable generations such as wind and hydro.
Wind – shreds birds. Massive visual blot on the landscape and again not suitable for many locations.
Wind turbines do, occasionally, kill birds. So do cars. In fact, I’m pretty sure that cars actually kill more. And, no, they’re not a visual blot on the landscape at all – especially if you build them out to sea where they’ll also become an artificial reef helping sea life thrive. About the only place that wind can’t be directly placed is in cities.
Nuclear – promising but currently suffers from environmental issues due to waste problem. Expensive and vulnerable to technical problems.
Nuclear isn’t viable and it’s unsustainable.
If we want to go clean, hydro power has a significant role to play, at least in New Zealand.
We’ve pretty much tapped out all suitable hydro-generation in NZ. There’s really nowhere left to build hydro-dams in NZ.
Wind turbines do, occasionally, kill birds. So do cars. In fact, I’m pretty sure that cars actually kill more.
I was thinking about that the other day after seeing a sparrow bounce of my bonnet and hit the road behind me – if bird deaths are an argument against wind turbines, they’re an even bigger argument against road transport because there are millions of vehicles driving around. Strangely enough, I’ve never seen anyone argue motorised transport shouldn’t be used because birds, but it gets raised all the time for wind turbines.
“Strangely enough, I’ve never seen anyone argue motorised transport shouldn’t be used because birds, but it gets raised all the time for wind turbines.”
No, but if someone said hey I’ve got this great new technology that will allow us all individually to move around the place quickly, only it’s going to kill a few people, lots of birds and small mammals, create immediate air pollution that makes people sick and puts further strain on the health system, and be a major contributor to a global catastrophe, then who really would want cars?
Call it whatever kind of want you like Clump, then get out into the street and have a look at the reality around you.
As Orwell said, ‘Propaganda only works on those who are already inclined to accept it’.
Or do you seriously believe that if there was no advertising of cars, no one would perceive any benefit in one, and no one would want one?
That’s what market makers say to, you’ve got a lot in common you know.
It’s also conceivable with the rise of VR googles, humans will live in apartments 24/7 with no need to venture outside because drones will bring them stuff and take stuff away and so on.
If you think I’m kidding just put on a set of VR and report back here
Visual pollution is a major problem with wind turbines – they’re incredibly spatially inefficient.
I’m not defending fossil fuels, i’m promoting certain solutions over others. You are correct on decentralised solar though as being very important.
As for “powering down”, that’s just modern Ludditism (?). There are certainly efficiency gains to be had, but trying to reduce aggregate demand for energy in the world without mass population culls isn’t mathematically feasible (if it was even desirable).
Environmental protection is entirely consistent with a steady-state population but advancing technology and prosperity – done correctly.
Visual pollution is a major problem with wind turbines – they’re incredibly spatially inefficient.
The visual thing is subjective. Most people seemingly like the look of them.
Spatially they’re good as well. You design their layout to suit the prevailing winds and, on land, the land can still be used for other things such as farming.
At sea you keep the same layout, get better wind capture and the benefits of a massive breeding ground for fish.
“Visual pollution” doesn’t exist, other than as a matter of personal taste. If a person finds the sight of man-made objects in the landscape unbearable, they’re hardly going to be able to live anywhere but in a national park.
I have never felt wind turbines are a visual pollution. Overseas where there are many areas with wind farms, usually in desolate or moorland type areas I have always seen them as a sculptural piece of art, eerie and stark against the skyline. Surreal in their own way, but as people on this site are saying its beauty in the eyes of the beholder. I think we should have many more of them out there on our skylines – its progress in action and an obviously cleaner substitute than fossil fuels.
“If a person finds the sight of man-made objects in the landscape unbearable, they’re hardly going to be able to live anywhere but in a national park.”
That’s not what people are referring to when they talk about visual pollution, so null argument there I’m afraid.
If their beef isn’t with man-made objects per se, it’s just a matter of personal taste, for which the term “visual pollution” is inappropriate. I don’t like the sight of people wearing sports gear as street clothes, but it would be pretentious to call it “visual pollution.”
It’s not the sight of man-made objects per se, it’s the impact of some man-made objects on the appreciation of natural beauty. Not all man-made objects. It’s a valid argument in itself, I’m sure you can think of places not to put industrial structures because of the visual impact (amongst other reasons). Or maybe not. Maybe having massive industrial structures next in a national park or next to a beautiful piece of architecture wouldn’t bother bother you. Many humans aren’t like that though.
I quite like the look of wind turbines myself, relative to other industrial structures, but there’s plenty of places I think they are inappropriate to put on visual grounds alone.
NZ’s wind turbines tend to be in places where there are also farms visible and/or the original forest cover has been removed by humans. I don’t see why someone should believe that’s OK but a wind turbine isn’t.
Some people value iconic bare landscapes /shrug. I get that you don’t understand this, but you not getting it doesn’t mean it’s not valid. Myself, I’d prefer to see the hills of somewhere like Central Otago reforested even if that means letting wilding pines grow. But I also understand that the people that grew up there that have a direct relationship with the place experience the place differently.
It’s not a black and white thing, land, or appreciation of beauty. Nor is it rational in the way you want it to be. We can apply rationality over it, but that’s not always the best thing to do esp as rationales are rarely pure and simply represent a different set of values. For instance, there’s no way in hell I’ll support a wind farm on the Lammerlaws so that Aucklanders can wear t-shirts in winter or people can have heated towel rails.
I get that you don’t understand this, but you not getting it doesn’t mean it’s not valid.
It’s valid, but it’s also just an opinion, or more accurately a personal preference. I get that people feel strongly about it, and their feelings on any subject are just as valid as mine, but feeling strongly about something isn’t an argument and can’t conjure something called “visual pollution” into existence.
But “pollution” is the word that makes it a matter of opinion, not “visual”.
Nobody uses “pollution” to refer to harmless or positive stuff, be it light pollution, noise pollution, air pollution, or waterway pollution. It’s always a negative, and usually it’s a negative to the people mentioning it but not the people who discharged it. Nobody says “you’re polluting the stream with your fresh water” unless they fall for the “dihydrogen monoxide” joke.
Because it’s arbitrary. If someone is looking out the window of their house and thinks that the farms they can see are OK, and the road to their house is OK, and the power lines bringing electricity to their house are OK, and the fences they and all the other farmers put up are OK, and the non-native animals all over the place are OK, but those wind turbines in the distance, those are visual pollution, they don’t really have a workable definition of “visual pollution” beyond “I think it spoils the view.”
I think you are just arguing from your own personal preferences now. As I’ve already said, one can experience a man-made object as interfering with beauty, but not experience all man-made objects doing so.
You’re right, I am arguing from my own personal preferences. I’m just saying it would be nice if wind turbine opponents would admit they’re doing the same, instead of inventing something called “visual pollution” so they can pretend they aren’t.
As for “powering down”, that’s just modern Ludditism (?). There are certainly efficiency gains to be had, but trying to reduce aggregate demand for energy in the world without mass population culls isn’t mathematically feasible (if it was even desirable).
Environmental protection is entirely consistent with a steady-state population but advancing technology and prosperity – done correctly.
Powering down is in fact feasible, and is what will happen anyway if we don’t do it. Every civilisation that’s collapsed has gone through enforced power down. I think what you mean is that you don’t know how to feed the world without fossil fuels (renewables require fossil fuels). It’s ok, there are people who know how to do this.
I’m theoretically good with the steady state idea, although I tend to think that ship has sailed, but the upteching you are advocating isn’t in fact steady state. Running a high tech society requires fossil fuels and GHG emissions (care to share how to build NZ style-hydro without concrete for instance?).
I would be interested to hear your ideas on population and steady state too.
Consider the computing power in your phone – roughly equivalent to a supercomputer of the 60’s that sucked tremendous amounts of electricity. Now we have better functionality and ability to aid/perform tasks, sitting right there in your pocket.
In a resource sense, the old supercomputer physically used a lot more materials. If we keep growing the number of smartphones, obviously we will need to keep mining ad infinitum. But we can currently do a lot more with the same quantity materials than we used to.
But all the resources we have ever mined on earth are still here, they’ve just been converted into different forms. So the stuff from the ground is now in a building or in a landfill somewhere. Currently it’s hugely expensive to recycle, but cheap and abundant energy would solve all those issues along with many others. Soon we will be able to grow meat in a lab, and return farmland to forest.
At the core, it’s all just a physics problem.
TLDR is population level off + efficiency + tech + recycling could get us through without the need for unpalatable situations.
While I appreciate the efficiency argument, I’d point out two things. There is nothing even remotely sustainable about mobile phones in an ecological sense, so any argument around steady state via high tech would need to include how to make cell phones that were modular with replacement parts and that didn’t require destroying other parts of the planet. Which takes us neatly to social/political issues which efficiency has nothing to do with.
There is also the Jevon’s Paradox, which is also not solved by world views that propose high tech solutions to our predicament. Are you sure we are using the same quantity as in the 1960s, because I’m willing to bet we are using many many times more.
I agree with you about better use of resources e.g. mining landfills and more functional recycling, but where is the cheap and abundant energy going to come from?
How will we grow meat in a lab without fossil fuels (assuming it’s a good idea to base diets around, which I doubt)?
There is nothing even remotely sustainable about mobile phones in an ecological sense
Wrong.
The materials can be mined using sustainable methods. Recycling using renewable energy means that once mined they’re available essentially forever.
The only thing that makes them unsustainable is that we have a tendency to throw them in landfills rather than recycling. We need to change that and make recycling mandatory.
Are you sure we are using the same quantity as in the 1960s, because I’m willing to bet we are using many many times more.
We probably are but that’s not due to increasing tech but increasing population. If population had remained the same then the increase in tech level would have seen a decrease in resources used.
I agree with you about better use of resources e.g. mining landfills and more functional recycling, but where is the cheap and abundant energy going to come from?
Renewable generation. As has been pointed out, there’s enough solar energy striking the Earth to maintain our present energy use without affecting the environment.
How will we grow meat in a lab without fossil fuels
By the simple expedient of not using fossil fuels.
See. There you go again. I’m getting a very strong feeling you believe in perpetual motion machines.
It’s good to focus on economy but you have link it to ecology which no ones done except on the fringes orstudents interpreting the mass of data my and previous generations have collected but don’t fully understand
Renewable energy is incredibly cheap. In fact, it’s always been cheaper than fossil fuels because it doesn’t need continuous inputs of fuel. It just needs the sun burning and it’s going to be doing that for the next five billion years without any help from us.
The problem is we will still be exploiting stored energy whether stored in stars, fission material or fossil fuels. Exploiting these free energy produces background radiation that seeps out of a process we’ve already over used. The only thing for it is to scale back and let Mother Nature work her self out
“The materials can be mined using sustainable methods”
Rare materials are a finite resource. Yes, technically, if we stabilised the population and decided that only a percentage of them would get mobile phones at any one time, then we could produce them sustainably. But that’s not the situation we are in. It’s a literal impossibility to mine a small mineral resource sustainably at the scale we are talking about.
If you are intent on a somewhat aggressive argument (“wrong”), then I’ll just say that all your theoretical stuff fails when applied in the physical world. This is a classic example.
“We probably are but that’s not due to increasing tech but increasing population. If population had remained the same then the increase in tech level would have seen a decrease in resources used.”
Not just increasing population but increased demand per person for goods. We have far more electronics now per person than we used to.
Anyway, go ahead and explain how to build a wind farm without using FF or concrete. And by build, I mean in the real world, not the theoretical possibility.
Yep. Completely agree with that. That’s why I keep saying that we need to set standards for trade. Shoddy practices like those described would immediately prevent trade with that country.
BTW, we do have sources of tungsten in NZ along with all of the other rare earths (which aren’t actually rare BTW).
We have far more electronics now per person than we used to.
Yes we do but each device uses far less resources than they used to and they achieve far more. A single 1960s mainframe would probably use more resources than several thousand PCs and yet each single PC far outstrips the capabilities of that mainframe.
Now think about what that would mean if we’d stabilised the population at the three billion of 1960.
Just out of curiosity weka, what bits of modern industrial society do you think can’t do without fossil fuels?
Broadly, fossil fuels are either burned for direct process heat, or burned in engines for mechanical power. Renewable electricity can easily substitute for both of those. Powering large ships is going to be difficult with renewables, but could go zero-carbon with nukes. Long-haul aviation needs liquid fuels, which could be biofuels.
1. Wind farms. Please show me how they can be built, in the foreseeable future using zero fossil fuels. You’ll need to include all materials (including mining, transport and processing of materials), as well as all the infrastructure involved in that e.g. the machines used to mine the minerals, the factories that those machines are made in, the materials those factories are made from etc. I get that that is theoretically possible at an abstract level, so I’m asking you to explain how it would work in the work over the next period of time.
2. long haul aviation fuels replaced with biofuels. Where are they going to come from?
weka, it would take weeks to go through every single process, identify which energy input came from fossil fuels and show how it could change to electricity. The question you’ve asked is so general it’s like asking to prove a negative.
But as far as I know, every single step of making a wind turbine could be powered by electricity. For instance, steel-making uses coal both for heat, and to reduce the iron oxide. Coz coal is cheap. But it can be done entirely electrolytically.
Every mining dump truck, front-end loader that currently runs on diesel could run on electricity. Whether by batteries, overhead wires, or trailing cables. It’s just cheaper and more convenient to use fossil fuels. Oh, and those massive german coal mining machine that can scoop up the volume of an olympic swimming pool in a few minutes? Electrically powered.
The crushers and mills for pulverising materials that go into concrete often are already electric. The heat needed for the calcination of cement is usually fossil now (coz it’s cheaper) but can easily be swapped to electricity.
There’s three bits. If you’ve got a specific process you don’t understand how to convert, ask and I’ll help you.
Biofuels – well plenty of agricultural production now goes to really dumb bio-ethanol. It wouldn’t be hard to get smarter about that to make aviation fuel.
I think you misunderstand me Andre. I accept that it’s possible technically. I’m saying that once you try and do it in the real world, it looks really different. This stuff was hashed out by the Peak Oil crowd a decade ago, and that included industry people and engineers etc.
weka, it would take weeks to go through every single process, identify which energy input came from fossil fuels and show how it could change to electricity. The question you’ve asked is so general it’s like asking to prove a negative.
It’s not a general question, it’s specific. People who claim that because it’s technically feasible it must be literally possible at the applied level are the ones talking in generalities. I’m asking you to break it down and show how that could happen given the various limitations of the known physical world. You don’t have to go into every little detail but if you can’t do a cradle to grave analysis please explain what makes you think it’s possible in reality.
Biofuels – well plenty of agricultural production now goes to really dumb bio-ethanol. It wouldn’t be hard to get smarter about that to make aviation fuel.
Likewise with this. It sounds reasonable right? But I’d like to see that broken down into some broad figures on how much fuel is needed per flight, and how much land is needed to grow that fuel, and then how many non-ff resources are needed to process/transport it etc. You’re talking theoretically, I’m asking for some evidence that it would work in practice.
You could do it just for NZ. For the sake of argument, take the number of international flights and cut it in half as our responsibility to grow and process the fuel for it. There will be an interesting calculation there along the lines of how many flights we do per year compared to how long it takes to grow and process each crop.
It works really easily in real time. As the price of fossil fuels go up relative to electricity, more and more processes become cheaper to do electrically than with fossil fuels.
When the price of oil went over $100/barrel I’m aware of several manufacturers went on quick conversion programmes to electric. Only one of which actually completed the conversion before the oil price went back down. The others abandoned their projects, and still run on fossil fuels now.
“It works really easily in real time. As the price of fossil fuels go up relative to electricity, more and more processes become cheaper to do electrically than with fossil fuels.”
That’s the theory, which has been demonstrated on a small scale. You are asserting that it can be done on the whole planet, but there’s nothing you’ve said that I find convincing.
When the price of oil went over $100/barrel I’m aware of several manufacturers went on quick conversion programmes to electric. Only one of which actually completed the conversion before the oil price went back down. The others abandoned their projects, and still run on fossil fuels now.
Right, but they still relied heavily and instrinsicly on ff-based tech. They had all that infrastructure, supply lines etc behind the conversion that was mined, manufactured and run on ff.
You’ve also now neatly highlighted the economic (and likewise political) realities, which I’m actually happy to leave out of the argument for now, because even with the best will in the world I’m not sure what you are suggesting is possible.
That’s the theory, which has been demonstrated on a small scale. You are asserting that it can be done on the whole planet, but there’s nothing you’ve said that I find convincing.
It can be done on the whole planet.
The problem is that you’re confusing the need for fossil fuels during the change over period as an ongoing need for fossil fuels for a high-tech economy.
Yes, we’ll continue using fossil fuels until the change over is done and then we won’t because they’re not needed.
The problem is that you’re confusing the need for fossil fuels during the change over period as an ongoing need for fossil fuels for a high-tech economy.
No, I’m not Draco, which you would know if you engaged in conversation instead of making assumptions and telling me I’m wrong. In this conversation I am talking about how to get from where we are now to fully renewables with the current population and standards of living. Neither you or Andre have done anything other than present some theory. Both of you are side stepping the pragmatics of how it could be done.
Long-haul aviation needs liquid fuels, which could be biofuels.
Theoretically could, yes.And you could argue back and forth on the logistics. But since we need to have zero emissions from energy, it ain’t an option (not beyond the very, very short term anyway). And that zero carbon necessity means that no bio-fuel can be used anywhere for energy purposes – probably including my much beloved wood burning stove
🙁
You want air travel there are two options I’m aware of.
1. Hydrogen fueled aircraft (the prototypes were built in the 80s by the Russians – they retrofitted ‘normal’ aircraft)
Dunno what graphene is – never heard of it. Bottom line is that by around 2030 -2040, anything with carbon emissions is a ‘no go’ if we want even the slimmest chance of ducking 2 degrees.
“probably including my much beloved wood burning stove”
Maybe not (although we need to transition to high efficient burners),
while new plantations managed for timber and firewood have no net carbon dioxide emissions and actually take 0.17kg of CO2 out of the atmosphere for every kWhr of heat produced.
His comparisons initially are with coal-fired electricity and gas (wood is a no brainer), but he appears to be saying that irrespective of comparisons with other forms of energy for heating, firewood has negative emissions if managed properly. I’ve heard Holmgren say that firewood is the only sustainable energy source on the planet (I assume because of it’s ability to sequester more than it emits).
Ae. It’s nano material. It’s just one possible step in along process required to recycle carbon. The thing is. We’ll have to wait for a Thomas Edison, JP Morgan type relation ship to emerge.
Liquid fuels around 45MJ/kg, including tanks. Hydrogen best figure I’ve seen including tanks is 11 MJ/kg. Hydrogen and liquid fuel have about the same efficiency converting chemical energy into mechanical energy. The takeoff weight of a long haul aircraft going for maximum range is around 50% fuel. I just don’t see how that can possibly add up to hydrogen being viable for long haul aviation.
Let alone the other problems with hydrogen, ie where do you get it from and it’s an extremely difficult and dangerous fuel.
Graphene has potential as a next next generation high strength material. You may have heard of carbon nanotubes – they’re essentially sheets of graphene rolled up into a cylinder to make a single layer or multi-layer tube.
Carbon fibre is more or less lots of graphene mushed together to form a really long log (at the micro scale), with the number and type of defects in the structure determining the grade (strength and modulus) of the fibre.
We experienced the same problems with silicon 50 years ago. We solved all that by pumping money into it. We can do the same with graphene. So time isn’t so much an inhibitor
86.%of worlds energy use was supplied by oil,coal and gas (2006)…..while the theory of replacing the likes of earthmoving equipment et al with electric versions sounds feasible (small scale), to replace energy use without a reduction in production would require an almost 8 fold increase (at least) in electricity production and distribution worldwide……and in an impossibly short timeframe.
That fails to explain why we need fossil fuels for these things.
Yes, we’re presently using fossil fuels to supply energy but we don’t need to. This makes weka’s and your assertion that we need fossil fuels for both a high tech economy and renewables wrong.
don’t be a dickhead….30 years to change over?right, have you any concept of what is involved in an 8 fold increase in electricity generation and distribution? (we won’t worry about any of the other challenges involved )…i suggest not.
there is one way you can hold on to your precious western lifestyle….reduce the worlds population by 86%(or so)
“These tests show that you’re a LIAR!”
Jeremy Kyle in New Zealand, Monday 9 January 2017
Part One of Two
We join the show near the end of the first segment. Host JEREMY KYLE stands centrestage, holding a large white envelope. To his right are seated HELEN CLARK and HEATHER SIMPSON, to his left sits the disgraced ex-Labour MP SHANE JONES. Hovering close by, ever vigilant, are two burly, black-clad security men….
JEREMY KYLE: All right, now just one more time, let’s get this quite clear: you say you did nothing in that hotel room except work on your Cabinet papers? [He turns to the audience and smirks disdainfully]
AUDIENCE: Ha ha ha!
SHANE JONES: Absolutely.
AUDIENCE: Ha ha ha ha ha!… BULLSH*T!…. He’s the Minister for Porn!…The only papers he was working through was tissue papers!…. Ha ha ha ha ha!
JEREMY KYLE:[waiting for the wave of catcalling and derisive laughter to subside] Well, let’s see what the lie detector tests say. …
[tears open envelope, scans contents, pauses several seconds for effect]….
JEREMY KYLE: These tests show that you’re a LIAR! You weren’t attending to cabinet papers in that hotel room, you were watching PORN!
SHANE JONES: Bugger the lie detector machines! They’re obviously faulty.
AUDIENCE: Ha ha ha ha ha! Not as faulty as the Labour Party candidate selection process!
JEREMY KYLE: These good citizens will be happy, I’m sure, to know that their hard-earned TAXES are going on rental copies of Debbie Does Dallas!
SHANE JONES: Piss off! It wasn’t Debbie Does Dallas, it was Vase de Noces.
….Awkward pause….
JEREMY KYLE: You disGUST me! Get off my show, NOW!
JONES skulks off, clutching the lie detector results slip…
WAGS FROM CROWD: He’s fit only for the ACT cult now!…. He’s got the situation FIRMLY in hand! …. Ha ha ha ha ha! …. Off to the National Party, Jones—that’s where all the wankers go!…. More huzzas, general hubbub, raucous laughter….
HELEN CLARK:[through gritted teeth] I knew it!
HEATHER SIMPSON:[bitterly, to Clark] I TOLD you you should NEVER have made that clown a cabinet minister in the FIRST place, for pity’s sake.
HELEN CLARK:[angrily rising from seat and advancing on SIMPSON] Don’t you DARE criticize my man-management! I ran a tight ship for NINE glorious years.
The security men step swiftly between SIMPSON and CLARK…
JEREMY KYLE: Now, now, settle down ladies. This is the Jeremy Kyle Show, not Jerry Springer! Maybe we’ll have you back on the show soon to discuss your legacy, Helen! For now, you go THAT way, and YOU—[pointing to SIMPSON]—go THAT way.
Exeunt CLARK and SIMPSON
JEREMY KYLE: And the best of luck to them. Coming up after the break: this man [close-up of SWORDFISH waiting nervously in green room] says that the people on New Zealand’s leading blog need to COOL IT during this election year and STOP all the SQUABBLING!
Cameras pan over nervous Standardistas waiting to make their entrance: marty mars, weka, Psycho Milt, Sasha and Morrissey.
JEREMY KYLE: And the best of luck to them. Coming up after the break: this man [close-up of SWORDFISH waiting nervously in green room] says that the people on New Zealand’s leading blog need to COOL IT during this election year and STOP all the SQUABBLING!
“Nervously” ???, Mozza, “Nervously” ??? … Never !!! I’ve always been a laid back sort of a Geeza, cool as a cucumber, me. I’d be sitting in the Green Room scheming up ways to subvert the programme by telling a few home truths that highlight Kyle’s remarkably ugly manipulative streak.
Looking forward to the next instalment.
By outrageous coincidence, my 16 year old Nephew (living in the UK) is a massive JEREMY KYLE fan (in common, no doubt, with most English 16 year old lads). His parents have spent a few years trying to wean him off the show (to no noticeable effect).
Shhh better not let this news get to the public, wonder if the Herald or Stuff will bother mentioning it. (The Herald had a link to the story, click on the link and it is a 404 page not found)
“Figures obtained by the Taxpayers’ Union under the Official Information Act show that to date Kiwi taxpayers have forked out $7.7 million to the Clinton Foundation’s “Health Access Initiative” with $2.5 million and $3 million earmarked for 2017 and 2018 respectively.”
This pisses me off no end, dodgy Clinton foundation and our government decides that taxpayers are giving millions of dollars to it.
What kind of dumb arse explanation will the outgoing government provide for this ‘donation’? Especially with all the scandal around the Clinton Foundation to start with. FFS.
Here’s an idea, how about using NZ tax payer money for NZer’s.
If I understand this correctly, you’re endorsing a National Party front organisation whose press release includes the line “…New Zealand’s faux pas in co-sponsoring the UN Security Council resolution condemning Israel on Christmas Eve…” and suggesting that the NZ government stop all foreign aid (“NZ tax payer money for NZer’s”). Is that really what you wanted to say?
Do some independent thinking, Cinny.
1) The Taxpayers Union is a front for ACT-ites.
2) Why do you assume that everything with the name “Clinton”on it is “dirty”? Who fed you that line? (Clue, he likes to blow his own trumpet.)
3) Are you seriously saying that NZ shouldn’t spend any money on foreign aid? Because, if you are, that’s a despicable attitude.
Check out the posting, links and comments on just put up:
That money should have gone into our own foreign relief aid efforts in the Pacific, not into an attempt to curry favour with the next Clinton Administration.
I tried forwarding some helpful advice to democrat_propaganda_unit@wetdream.org, but got the autoreply “morrissey isn’t in right now, but when he gets close to planet earth he’ll get back to you with some barely-legible ranting”.
He’s entertaining McFlock. He knows he’s exaggerating but that’s part of the fun… you take it into consideration. My Dad was the same. We knew to halve everything he said but he was also entertaining in the process.
3) Are you seriously saying that NZ shouldn’t spend any money on foreign aid?
The question that I always come up with is: Why do these countries need aid?
At no point should a country ever need aid or foreign investment. They have their own resources, their own people, and thus can create their own money to utilise those resources creating their own economy.
I suspect that the real problem that needs to be addressed is the colonisation of these countries by foreign bankers and capitalists.
1. Doesn’t really matter to me whom the taxpayers union is aligned to, but that’s interesting that you say it’s a front for ACTites. Will def do some more reading/research.
2. Nope no one fed me that line. Gosh certainly not Agent Orange. I do take on board much info, but do like to come to my own conclusions, and am happy to change my mind if more info comes to light. Only a stubborn fool would be stuck in one mindset, or gather info from an echo chamber or limited sources/sites.
3. Foreign aid is fine by me, as long as it is used for those that need it. And with our country in so much debt, recovering from earthquakes, as well as making sure we have reserves to help any in the pacific islands should they have another disaster (because that is important IMHO), it makes me think that such a generous donation to that particular organisation is in bad taste.
Just thought I’d mention I’m a supporter of increasing our refugee quota.
I wonder what other ‘donations’ there are and to whom?
This appears to have only come to light via an OIA, so what else is happening that they would rather us not know about?
I mean if it was a great organisation, wouldn’t the government be proud to donate money to it? Wouldn’t the public feel proud to know they were helping people whom were suffering more than they are? So wouldn’t they be making it
a publicity press opportunity. And that’s a bit of a crux for me, it appears to be all a bit slim shady.
Been a primo day here, time for me to do some reading 😀
If it’s okay for the government to give public money that was earmarked for ‘Foreign Aid’ to the Clinton Foundation (a private concern), then presumably it’s okay to give that same money to other private concerns like (oh – I dunno) The Bill Gate’s Foundation, The George Soros Foundation, the Ford Foundation.. the White Helmets…
I’m no statist, but if we’re going to throw crumbs and bones from our banquet by way of foreign aid monies, I’d fully expect the public purse to fund orgs and programmes that had high degrees of public oversight…such as other government bodies. ..or to recognised aid agencies (eg Oxfam) for specific projects/programmes.
The donations were indeed for specific projects, the CHAI is a recognised agency, and it has admin costs probably better than anything the government does directly.
food environment
10 Jan 2017
Seeking unusual vege varieties
From Summer Days with Jesse Mulligan, 11:25 am on 10 January 2017
Tim Martin is an ecologist who in his spare time cultivates a magnificent fruit and vege garden at his Mt Wellington home in Auckland.
He tries to experiment every year with new varieties, some of which become staples, he says.
Fuji apples as an espalier on boundary fence
Leeks are a winter staple in Tim’s garden
Courgettes
Beans and capsicum
All of Tim’s swiss chard (silverbeet) is produced by letting them grow wherever they self-seed.
Cucumber grown as a groundcover
climbing beans, sunflowers, pumpkin and corn in garden alongside house
Heather potatoes – which Tim says have an amazing texture that semi-caramelises in the middle
Tomato plants
The summer tomato glut
Tomatoes grown as groundcover under clothes-line
Mesclun for all year round salads
The loaded lemon tree
“One of my favourites is the tomatillo. It’s a close relative of the Cape gooseberry, it’s in that tomato family, it’s a very easy way of growing a tomato equivalent, it’s disease resistant there’s no training or pruning they just form a bush.”
Tomatillos are used in Mexican to make salsa and he says they can also be chargrilled.
Tim grows them from seed in August/September and plants out in November.
Having a problem with stringy beans? Try an old New Zealand heritage variety Tim says.
“One of my all-time favourites is an old heritage variety The Dalmation bean, it’s a climbing bean and if you go away during your summer holidays … you won’t come back to inedible beans – even if they grow full size, they’re stringless and tender.”
He suggests potato onions as a lazy way of growing onions, which is where you plant an onion, instead of an onion seed, and that onion turns into 10 or 12 small onions, much in the same way as garlic or shallots.
Other options he suggests are water spinach (or Kang Kong) and a variety of tomato called green sausage which he says you can leave alone and it will grow like a carpet.
For future reference, can you please link to the RNZ page, not the audio? RNZ are not using permanent URLs for their audio, but instead audio IDs that link to a person’s history, so your link went to the last audio I listened to. If you link to the page instead (with the details of the content), then that will be a permanent link and the same for everyone. That page will also give the various options for listening e.g. stream or download, rather than just the stream which isn’t suitable for everyone. Cheers.
OK I’ll try weka but I can’t always get to a place where I can do what I want to do – get message that I can’t be transferred for some bloody reason. I am sick of it being so difficult. So sometimes if I can’t get the right thing I will just have to put what I can get. I have to limit my time on the computer, but like to pass interesting stuff on. But have to keep a kitchen timer beside me – so old-fashioned! And proud of it. I don’t want to be completely controlled by machines and web designers thinking up new ways to make me feel inadequate and out of touch. Bah,
Why RNZ couldn’t give all the previous options with a pretty format when they updated their site I don’t know. I think a lot of these programming types wouldn’t know their A from their E and simply work from the latest instruction book as to what is ‘best practice’ until the next disruption occurs! Strike it also on Trademe, where for no apparent customer advantage something will change and a useful option vanish.
Jordy-boy Williams of Taxpayers Union fame is having a tantrum after discovering the NZ Govt. has donated 7.7 million dollars of “tax payers money” to the Clinton Foundation. This is a charitable organisation which apparently has been highly praised by philanthropy experts:
From Wikipedia:
Through 2016 the foundation had raised an estimated $2 billion from U.S. corporations, foreign governments and corporations, political donors, and various other groups and individuals. The acceptance of funds from wealthy donors has been a source of controversy. The foundation “has won accolades from philanthropy experts and has drawn bipartisan support”.
But what is upsetting Jordy-boy most is the fact that Donny-boy Trump won’t like it one little bit and we mustn’t upset the orange fella. How dare the NZ govt. support a charity set up to provide humane assistance to the disadvantaged wherever and whoever they may be!
This is my paraphrasing of the Herald item because guess what: the highlighted online news clip has suddenly become “not available“.
Psychological projection – Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
Psychological projection is a theory in psychology in which humans defend themselves against their own unconscious impulses or qualities (both positive and negative) by denying their existence in themselves while attributing them to others.
A heckler at a UK Brexit meeting told an economy professor that his GDP figures were not for her economy. And this article shows why she is correct.
If economists tout GDP as signs of a healthy strong economy, but many people around the country (whether UK or NZ) are not getting the benefits, then there’s something wrong with the way economists are measuring the strength of an economy:
Putting together official figures and the Bank of England’s own calculations, it looked at regional GDP per head from the capital up to Scotland. And it showed that only two regions of the total 12 were actually richer than they were before the credit crunch. Those two regions were London and the south-east. Nearly everywhere else was poorer than in 2007 – sometimes, as in Northern Ireland, a lot poorer.
… On statistical aggregates the UK is enjoying a recovery. But in reality this has been a recovery for owner-occupiers in London and the south-east. It has locked out those without big assets, such as the young, and those renting in the capital. It has penalised the poor. And it has impoverished those who have been forced on to zero hours or bogus self-employment.
…
the problem with economists … [is] that by concentrating on aggregates, they insist it’s sunny outside, when it’s T-shirt weather for a few in central London and the rest of the country is getting soaked.
It’s all about how the statistics are used by economists…. or alternatively, they could just get out and about and see what the reality is for diverse people on the ground.
As Glenn Greenwald tweeted, whatever the truth of the weakly verified reports from the US intelligence agencies, there’s now open warfare between the intelligence services and Trump.
I have no doubt that both the Russia and US intelligence services have sophisticated surveillance and black ops capabilities. I have no way of knowing exactly what is going on in this covert warfare.
Two terms of Donald, and then two terms from one of the kids, as Mrs Melania is foreign born and not eligible, though Donald could get that changed. There are five kids, so why not 48 years coming up Trumps? 🙂
I’m rather confident that document is fake. I’m no Trump fan but the story on the report says something like it’s from a former Brit Spy – D I doesn’t say who he worked for but I guess MI6.
After looking over the docs, it’s nothing like any Intel Report I’ve even seen. And I’ve seen a written a few.
I don’t have time to pull it to bits, but will if enough people want it, but here’s my brief summary:
The document isn’t laid out anything like a Intel Report, or even a gist report. So the format is the main thing that leads me to believe it’s fake.
Now, what would this guy know I hear you ask… Well as our Intelligence services are based on MI6 MI6 and most other police or military. Our agencies follow very similar protocols and procedures… Including the way Intel reports, Gist reports etc are written. So NZ Intel reports are based in format / layout on the UK Intel Reports.
This doc looks nothing like a genuine Intel report written by a person who should know what one not only looks like, but how it should be formatted.
So, the format is just wrong, although it looks like they (the writers tried however) Them comes the content. It’s not written in a way that someone trained to write these reports would do. It’s shit, really. Like I said. I’m willing to go through it bit by bit and show you the mistakes, incorrect use of terms, lack of using real terms. Making comments wrapped in ()
So, I don’t think this is a silver bullet. It’s fake, obviously written by people who knew enough to put the content together, and leak it. I’m not going to answer who I think it is. But the way things are sharpening up, this won’t be the last one of these.
Again, if people want a full synopsis of the leaked report and why I think it’s fake, just ask and I’ll go through it bit by bit.
So if the 35 pages is just something made up by a fantasist, what are the intel agencies using as a basis for their announcement? Or have the intel agencies lost the plot so badly one will publicly announce more investigations into one candidate 10 days before the election (against protocol with apparently no reasonable evidence and very dubious legal grounds), then this, 10 days before the inauguration of the other one, (who was arguably assisted in victory by the previous dodgy announcement).
Rail workers call out Transport Minister’s hypocrisy over electric vehicles
The union representing working people in New Zealand’s railways says Transport Minister Simon Bridges is acting like a hypocrite for touting the benefits of electric cars while allowing KiwiRail to ditch electric locomotives.
“There’s some incredible irony in this. While Bridges is ditching his diesel vehicle for an electric one, he’s overseeing KiwiRail’s move from electric locomotives to diesel ones,” said Rail and Maritime Transport Union (RMTU) General Secretary Wayne Butson.
In December KiwiRail confirmed that it would not upgrade its electric fleet on the North Island Main Trunk Line, instead opting to downgrade to Chinese-made diesel locomotives.
“If Bridges is sold on the benefit of electric vehicles why isn’t he sold on the benefits of electric locomotives?”
“All the arguments that apply to electric cars apply to electric locomotives. They’re cheaper and better for the planet in the long run. Investing in electric locomotives would even create local jobs,” said Butson.
RMTU modelling shows that KiwiRail’s electric fleet saves 8 million litres in fuel each year and the price of upkeep is only $1.13 per km, but the Chinese-made diesel locomotives will guzzle the gas the electric fleet saves and the likely cost of upkeep will be $2.27 per km.
Attention Micky-savage ,back in the 1970s the late Bob Reece of Hamilton who you may remember told me that the LP had patented the silver fern badge . So if this is the case how is it that that the Nat’s
are often seen wearing what looks very much like our silver fern membership badge .?
Full of incendiary anti-Russian rhetoric and selective morality,
Hopey-Changey’s last hurrah is a model of hypocrisy and dishonesty.
Chicago, Tuesday 10 December (U.S. time)
I’ve just heard the man that Jim Mora calls “the greatest orator of our time” quoting Atticus Finch—the “walk a mile in someone’s shoes” quote from To Kill A Mockingbird. Incredibly, he doesn’t seem to realize that Atticus Finch could give Jeff Sessions a run for his money when it comes to bigotry. [1]
Hopey-Changey’s brain-dead cheer squad didn’t seem to mind, though. These zombies even cheered when he boasted about how he’s “halved our dependence on foreign oil”—forgetting that he’s presided over a stratospheric increase in fracking, and has been a stubborn advocate of expanding nuclear energy production.
He’s just spoken of “violent fanatics who claim to speak for Islam”, but said nothing about violent fanatics who claim to speak for Judaism, or Christianity. [2] Nor did he mention that for the last six years the United States has been supporting, in Syria, the most violent and fanatical of all the violent fanatics who claim to speak for Islam.
He’s also just praised the “effectiveness of our law enforcement agencies”, as though all those police executions of unarmed black children across the United States had never happened. The crowd, which no doubt is largely comprised of self-described “liberals”, cheered even louder after that lie.
Morrissey, have a look at the reply I gave you about Atticus Finch over in the other line where you posted this comment. Better still, read To Kill a Mockingbird (which is not the same book as Go Set a Watchman – hint, they have different titles – and does not feature the same character as the one who’s discussed in your link – that’s about a different book – an early draft that was abandoned and never intended for publication).
But I apologize. I should obviously have said “I have the IMPRESSION you are actively whitewashing the brutality of Assad’s regime and implying that anyone who thinks he’s a genocidal monter is uninformed and brainwashed.” I’ll be more careful in future.
“I have the IMPRESSION you are actively whitewashing the brutality of Assad’s regime and implying that anyone who thinks he’s a genocidal mon[s]ter is uninformed and brainwashed”
Thanks Wainwright. That turns out to have been a useful exercise. A nice little summary and I share your impression.
IMO, you’ve just done something quite similar to what Wainwright was accused of which led to this summary – stating as a fact what what is actually your opinion about how I think.
I certainly do share Wainwright’s impression. I interpreted Bill’s comments in a similar way to Wainwright at the time they were made, and have not seen anything since that has changed my mind.
Sorry Miravox, I just fired it off without thinking. I know you’re not a liar. I was thoughtless and irresponsible to write it, and there’s no excuse.
While you’re there, Mickey, I’ve just had two messages for the “Obama’s last Speech” adulation thread bounced. I did not swear or engage in the sort of ad hom. nonsense that I unleashed on poor old Miravox.
So why am I being bounced? I presume you are not the one doing it.
[Nothing in the pending comments list. Will check – MS]
[Nothing in the pending comments list. Will check – MS]
Thanks Bill. This feels really sinister. I posed four serious questions to Sacha, asking her to defend her contention that old Hopey Changey had made an “inspiring” speech in Chicago.
Looks like either she’s not up to the challenge of responding or someone is stomping on our right to politely and intelligently dissent.
[there were 2 comments in the Trash, I’ve released them now. Nothing nefarious, it happens randomly, to many of us, including authors. You’ve been here long enough to know this Morrissey, so stop with the conspiracy stuff please – weka]
All my comments got put into pending because Bill didn’t like what I said. Do I get to imply there’s a dark conspiracy of Standard authors suppressing the truth too? 🙄
[all your comments got put into Pending because you accused an author of something they didn’t do. That’s premoderation and it’s one of the tools at a moderator’s disposal to make moderating easier and to teach commenters where the boundaries. Can you please reread the Policy, because it states clearly that it’s not ok to attack authors. Stop and think about it. If we moderated based on dislike, between the groups of us most comments would disappear. While we are all broadly on the left, there is a large range of views and opinions held by authors who moderate.
Sometimes people’s comments go into moderation randomly, but it’s amazing to me how many people assume something nefarious is going on despite it regularly being pointed out that this happens. I’m now putting you back in premoderation until I can see you’ve acknowledged this comment – weka]
Yes weka, I know. That was my point. Sometimes comments go into moderation. Morrisey’s the one trying to paint himself as the Edward Snowden of the Standard.
I already apologised for it. I guess I’ll do it again. Bill moderated me for making a direct statement instead of making it clear I was stating an opinion that my impression is he obfuscates criticism of Assad’s regime. He also doesn’t “like” my opinion but has not moderated me for it. Message received.
[You still don’t get it, offer up half arsed ‘apologies’ and (I noticed way after the fact) took the opportunity to launch some smart arsed/half arsed attack on an Open Mike after someone else had prematurely released you from your first stint in pre-mod. Anyway…] – Bill
[I wasn’t asking you to apologise Wainwright, I wanted to know if you would acknowledge why you were moderated. It might not seem important to you, but there is a line around criticising moderators and you stepped over it. I thought you did well to back up why you said what you did originally but still apologise, I just wanted to be sure you understood where the line is. Suffice to say that moderator patience is wearing thin at the moment, so how about making our job easier? Out of premod now – weka]
“As good as this?” What part did you like best?—The incendiary and hypocritical goading of Russia? The praising of U.S. “law enforcement” officers? The blather about “violent fanatics” that he has armed and diplomatically supported in Syria since 2011?
Your comment, analysis-free as it is, shows nothing more than cultural cringe and an alarming susceptibility to soaring bloviation.
The thing is, Morrissey, a lot of other people actually get the concept that a president or prime minister represents everybody in their country, that not all of those people share Morrissey’s opinions, and that the president/pm must nevertheless address his speeches to all of them. Perhaps if you write to him he’ll write you a speech that’s carefully tailored to your own opinions, but I wouldn’t get your hopes up.
Morrissey has a North Shore cliff with a favourite spot that he gets to declaim in the evening to all the fallen gods and prepare great idealistic worlds for himself to live in. If only his genius were understood.
…and that the president/pm must nevertheless address his speeches to all of them.
Imagine if instead of embarking on another anti-Russian rant like he did, and canting about “values” and heaping praise, without any discernible irony, on American “law enforcement”, Obama had actually DONE something meaningful, like dropping all charges against Edward Snowden, and releasing—immediately, with compensation—Chelsea Manning.
A misanthrope is someone with a generalised loathing of humankind. I actually feel quite positive about most people, and am charitable towards most, including my opponents—the ones who aren’t unbearably hostile, that is. I do loathe nearly all politicians, however, and their servants, whether they are paid to tell lies in the diplomatic corps [1] or paid to tell lies in the de facto propaganda corps. [2]
Obama’s handlers presented him as a blank slate, in other words you can write what ever you like. There are a few slogans, hope/unity/change, now write down what ever you like in between. It does arouse enthusiasm and we can understand why. More than 80% of the population thinks America and the world are going the wrong way. For most people in the US in the last 40 years it’s been a hard hard battle you can’t underestimate. And it’s a rich country which isn’t like living in Southern Africa but real wages declined for 40 years. There’s growth but it’s being hoarded by very few pockets. Health care/Benefits/wages have declined, this isn’t the work of a Nobel peace prize winner, this is the work of a charlatan. There isn’t anything to show for it other than keeping subsidising private inefficiencies.
There is tremendous dissatisfaction with institutions and that’s generalised right across the world. There’s a lot of talk about labour low poll ratings but parliament poll ratings is lower. In fact all institutions are not trusted and disliked. There is a sense everything is going wrong. So when you say hope/unity/change and talk eloquently and so on. Herd it all a million times
‘Keep Kansas in mind this year when our politicians begin to try to sell the notion that tax cuts are a responsible form of economic management. They’re not. They’re a bag of sweets, a bribe to win your vote. Beyond the sugar hit, they’ll do nothing to fix the problems facing the country, and will also do nothing to make this country safer or more prosperous for your kids.”
good advice ……we don’t need any more type2 diabetes.
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Rt Hon Winston Peters, Deputy Prime Minister, Minister of Foreign Affairs Hon Megan Woods, Minister of Research, Science and Innovation Hon Dr David Clark, Minister of Health Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters, Research, Science and Innovation Minister Megan Woods, and Health Minister David Clark today announced a COVID-19 vaccine strategy, ...
Budget 2020 is about rebuilding together, supporting jobs, getting business moving and the books back into the black. It’s an integral part of our COVID-19 economic response, and our plan to grow our economy and get New Zealand moving again.Here’s a quick look at the five top things you ...
The Green Party is pleased to reveal its candidate list for the upcoming election. With a mix of familiar faces and fresh new talent, this exceptional group of candidates are ready to lead the Greens back into Government. ...
The Coalition Government has approved $206 million in essential upgrades at Ōhakea Air Base. Defence Minister Ron Mark said the money would be spent on improving old infrastructure. He said safety issues would be addressed, as well as upgrades to taxiways, accommodation and fresh, storm and waste water systems. "This ...
Rt Hon Winston Peters, Leader of New Zealand First “I am not persisting with this case just for myself, but for all people who have had their privacy breached. Privacy of information is a cornerstone of our country’s democracy. Without it our society truly faces a bleak future. We now ...
Hon Tracey Martin, Minister for ChildrenA major increase in funding and availability of support will improve the incomes and reduce the pressure on 14,000 caregivers looking after more than 22,000 children.Children’s Minister Tracey Martin says that caregivers – all those looking after someone else’s children both in and ...
Forestry Minister Shane Jones has introduced a Bill to Parliament that he says will "force more transparency, integrity and respect" for the domestic wood-processing sector through the registration of log traders and practice standards. The Forests (Regulation of Log Traders and Forestry Advisers) Amendment Bill had its first reading in ...
This summer presents a great opportunity for New Zealanders to get out into nature with bookings on Great Walks for 2020/21 set to open next week, says Minister of Conservation Eugenie Sage. Bookings for the Great Walks will open between 9 and 11 June, excluding Milford and Routeburn tracks which ...
Extra 40,000 businesses to be eligible for wage subsidy extension Small business cashflow support application period extended The Government is today announcing further support for businesses that continue to be affected by the global COVID-19 pandemic, as the broader economy becomes one of the most open in the world following ...
The Coalition Government has confirmed five Lockheed Martin C-130J-30 Super Hercules transport aircraft will be purchased to replace the existing fleet, Defence Minister Ron Mark announced today. “Last year, Cabinet selected these aircraft as the preferred option to replace the current Hercules fleet. Procurement of the Super Hercules has been ...
New public housing that will save tenants money in energy bills, and provide warmer, healthier and more comfortable homes, is setting the standard for the Government’s future public housing programme, Housing Minister Megan Woods said. Dr Woods opened the new Kāinga Ora – Homes and Communities complex, which has a ...
The Minister of Conservation Eugenie Sage is celebrating World Environment Day with an announcement of a major step towards Wairarapa Moana being recognised as an internationally significant wetland. “Wairarapa Moana is an ecosystem of 10,000 hectares of wetland and open water that provides a home for indigenous fish, birds and ...
A new-look Police graduation ceremony to take account of COVID19 health rules has marked the completion of training for 57 new constables. Police Minister Stuart Nash attended this afternoon's ceremony, where officers of Recruit Wing 337 were formally sworn in at the Royal New Zealand Police College without the normal support of ...
Mobile traders and truck shops must adhere to responsible lending requirements Interest rate cap on high-cost loans Lenders prohibited from offering further credit to an applicant who has taken two high-cost loans in the past 90 days The Minister of Commerce and Consumer Affairs, Kris Faafoi, has signalled an end ...
94% of firms say wage subsidy had positive impact on cashflow 62% of firms say support helped to manage non-wage costs like rent A survey of business that have received the Government’s wage subsidy show it has played a significant role in saving jobs, and freed up cash flow to ...
New legislation introduced to Parliament today will support growth and assist businesses on the road to economic recovery, said Revenue Minister Stuart Nash. “The Taxation (Annual Rates for 2020-21, Feasibility Expenditure, and Remedial Matters) Bill proposes that businesses can get tax deductions for ‘feasibility expenditure’ on new investments,” said Mr ...
Sport and Recreation Minister Grant Robertson has welcomed the first release of funds from the $265 million Sport Recovery Package announced as part of Budget 2020. Sport NZ has announced that $4.6 million in funding will go to the Wellington Phoenix, NZ Warriors, Super Rugby teams and the ANZ Premiership ...
An iconic New Zealand tourism attraction and the country’s 31 Regional Tourism Organisations are the first recipients of support from the $400 million Tourism Sector Recovery Plan, to help position the sector for recovery from COVID-19, Tourism Minister Kelvin Davis announced today. The plan includes a Strategic Tourism Assets Protection ...
The Government will legislate to ensure businesses that suffered as a result of the COVID-19 response will get help to resolve disputes over commercial rent issues, Justice Minister Andrew Little announced today. A temporary amendment to the Property Law Act will insert a clause in commercial leases requiring a fair ...
The Minister for Small Business says new data from Xero highlights the urgency of prompt payment practices to small and medium enterprises as we move into economic recovery. Last month Government ministers wrote to significant private enterprises and the banking industry to request they join efforts by government agencies to ...
Young people in Waikato will be the first to have free access to period products in schools in another step to support children and young people in poverty,” Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern said. During term 3, the Ministry of Education will begin providing free period products to schools following the ...
The Minister of Police Stuart Nash has issued the following statement in response to charges filed against three Police officers this morning in the New Plymouth District Court. “Any incident involving a loss of life in Police custody is taken very seriously. The charges today reflect the gravity of the ...
$196 million for Crown Research Institutes $150 million for R&D loan scheme $33 million for Māori research and development opportunities $12 million for the Nationally Significant Collections and Databases $10 million to help maintain in-house capability at Callaghan Innovation New Zealand’s entrepreneurs, innovators and crown researchers will benefit from a ...
Further temporary changes to NCEA and University Entrance (UE) will support senior secondary school students whose teaching and learning have been disrupted by COVID-19. “The wellbeing of students and teachers is a priority. As we are all aware, COVID-19 has created massive disruption to the school system, and the Government ...
Minister for Racing Winston Peters today announced that the terms for the directors of the Racing Industry Transition Agency (RITA) have been extended to 30 June 2021. Due to the COVID-19 crisis the transition period has been extended to ensure that the Racing Industry Bill can complete its progress through ...
The deadline for landlords to include detailed information in their tenancy agreements about how their property meets the Healthy Homes Standards, so tenants can see the home they are renting is compliant, has been extended from 1 July 2020 to 1 December 2020. The Healthy Homes Standards became law on 1 July 2019. The Standards are ...
Justice Minister Andrew Little today announced details of further appointments to the Criminal Cases Review Commission. “I am pleased to announce Paula Rose QSO OStJ as Deputy Chief Commissioner for a term of five years commencing on 15 June 2020,” said Andrew Little. “I am also pleased to announce the ...
The Targeted Training and Apprenticeships Fund (TTAF) will pay costs of learners of all ages to undertake vocational education and training The fund will target support for areas of study and training that will give learners better employment prospects as New Zealand recovers from COVID-19 Apprentices working in all industries ...
The Emissions Trading Scheme (ETS) will finally start to cut New Zealand’s greenhouse gas pollution as it was originally intended to, because of changes announced today by the Minister for Climate Change, James Shaw. The changes include a limit on the total emissions allowed within the ETS, rules to ensure ...
Minister for Pacific Peoples Aupito William Sio says the Queen’s Birthday 2020 Honours List provides an abundance of examples that Pacific people’s leadership capability is unquestionable in Aotearoa. “The work and the individuals we acknowledge this year highlights the kind of visionary examples and dedicated community leadership that we need ...
The Government is backing a new $27 million project aimed at boosting sustainable horticulture production and New Zealand’s COVID-19 recovery efforts, says Agriculture Minister Damien O’Connor. “Our horticulture sector has long been one of New Zealand’s export star performers, contributing around $6 billion a year to our economy. During and ...
Applications have opened for 2021 Ngā Karahipi Uru Rākau – Forestry Scholarships, which will support more Māori and women to pursue careers in forestry science, says Forestry Minister Shane Jones. “I’m delighted Te Uru Rākau is offering Ngā Karahipi Uru Rākau – Forestry Scholarships for the third year running. These ...
The Queen’s Birthday 2020 Honours List once again highlights the dedication by many to looking after our native plants and wildlife, including incredible work to restore the populations of critically endangered birds says Minister of Conservation Eugenie Sage. Anne Richardson of Hororata has been made an Officer of the New ...
The Government will invest $10 million from the One Billion Trees Fund for large-scale planting to provide jobs in communities and improve the environment, Agriculture Minister Damien O’Connor and Forestry Minister Shane Jones have announced. New, more flexible funding criteria for applications will help up to 10 catchment groups plant ...
Organisations that support women are invited to apply to a new $1,000,000 fund as part of the Government’s COVID-19 response. “We know women, and organisations that support women, have been affected by COVID-19. This new money will ensure funding for groups that support women and women’s rights,” said Minister for ...
Healthier waterways are front and centre in a new project involving more than 300 King Country sheep, beef and dairy farmers. The Government is investing $844,000 in King Country River Care, a group that helps farmers to lift freshwater quality and farming practice, Agriculture Minister Damien O’Connor announced today. “Yesterday ...
A major funding package for libraries will allow them to play a far greater role in supporting their communities and people seeking jobs as part of the economic recovery from COVID-19. “Budget 2020 contains over $60 million of funding to protect library services and to protect jobs,” says Internal Affairs ...
A jobseekers programme for the creative sector and four new funds have been set up by the Government to help our arts and music industry recover from the blow of COVID-19. Thousands of jobs will be supported through today’s $175 million package in a crucial economic boost to support the ...
Minister for Veterans Ron Mark has welcomed the First Reading of a Bill that will make legislative changes to further improve the veterans’ support system. The Veterans’ Support Amendment Bill No 2, which will amend the Veterans’ Support Act 2014, passed First Reading today. The bill addresses a number of ...
Views sought on Order in Council to help fast track the reinstatement of the Christ Church Cathedral The Associate Minister for Greater Christchurch Regeneration, Hon Poto Williams, will be seeking public written comment, following Cabinet approving the drafting of an Order in Council aimed at fast-tracking the reinstatement of the ...
The law setting out New Zealanders’ basic civil and human rights is today one step towards being strengthened following the first reading of a Bill that requires Parliament to take action if a court says a statute undermines those rights. At present, a senior court can issue a ‘declaration of ...
Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters today reiterated the deep concern of the New Zealand Government following confirmation by China’s National People’s Congress of national security legislation relating to Hong Kong. “New Zealand shares the international community’s significant and long-standing stake in Hong Kong’s prosperity and stability,” Mr Peters said. “New Zealand ...
Thousands of artists and creatives at hundreds of cultural and heritage organisations have been given much-needed support to recover from the impact of COVID-19, Prime Minister and Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage Jacinda Ardern announced today. “The cultural sector was amongst the worst hit by the global pandemic,” Jacinda ...
Key New Zealand assets will be better protected from being sold to overseas owners in a way contrary to the national interest, with the passage of the Overseas Investment (Urgent Measures) Bill. The Bill, which passed its third reading in Parliament today, also cuts unnecessary red tape to help attract ...
Setting higher health standards at swimming spots Requiring urban waterways to be cleaned up and new protections for urban streams Putting controls on higher-risk farm practices such as winter grazing and feed lots Setting stricter controls on nitrogen pollution and new bottom lines on other measures of waterway health Ensuring ...
The Government is on the verge of reaching its target of state sector boards and committees made up of at least 50 percent women, says Minister for Women Julie Anne Genter and Minister for Ethnic Communities Jenny Salesa. For the first time, the Government stocktake measures the number of Māori, ...
For all The Spinoff’s latest coverage of Covid-19 see here. Read Siouxsie Wiles’s work here. New Zealand is currently in alert level two – read The Spinoff’s giant explainer about what that means here. For official government advice, see here.The Spinoff’s coverage of the Covid-19 outbreak is made possible thanks to donations from Spinoff Members. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Kate Noble, Education Policy Fellow, Mitchell Institute, Victoria University Three quarters of a million Australian children are likely to be experiencing employment stress in the family as a result of COVID-19. This is on top of around 615,000 children whose families were ...
Spice up the classic banana muffin with a subtle touch of star anise.These muffins came about one rainy Saturday when the cupboards were bare and there was nothing much left in the fruit bowl aside from some very sad-looking bananas. Fortunately we know sad bananas result in the best kind ...
For years, Work and Income has been telling New Zealanders they couldn’t get the benefit until their redundancy payments ran out. Turns out, it was wrong.What’s all this then?Work and Income has long told New Zealanders receiving redundancy payments that they weren’t eligible for the benefit until their redundancy money ...
New Zealand writer Anna Rankin reports from Los Angeles. Last Friday afternoon, I went downtown to a protest outside the enormous Los Angeles Police Department headquarters on 1st Street. The LAPD had set up cordons, placing orange cones across streets to block traffic. Arms crossed, they stood with a wide ...
Until the sudden closure of Bauer Media in April, Simon Farrell-Green was the editor of HOME, New Zealand’s oldest architecture magazine. Here he explains what comes next.Being the editor of a major architecture magazine was the best job I ever had. I got it in 2016, after a career spent ...
A global success story or an overly generous, unsustainable scheme that is doing lasting damage to our fish stocks? Ethan Neville looks at the ongoing debate over New Zealand’s fishing quota management system. The management of our fisheries is a touchy topic – and why wouldn’t it be? New Zealanders ...
By RNZ News Thousands of people were protesting across Australia today to oppose the deaths of Indigenous people in police custody. It comes as Black Lives Matter protests are held around the world after the death of George Floyd at the hands of a white police officer in the US ...
Wrapping everyone in a blanket of love, whakapapa and mauri for Matariki is the brave, exuberant and generous fabric art of Maungarongo Te Kawa, writes Amanda Thompson.E te AtuaNau enei rau harakeke he taongaTukuna ki a matouKia tika o matou mahiKo Papatuanuku e takoto neiTuturu WhakamauaKia tina, tinaHui eTaiki e.‘Karakia ...
For all The Spinoff’s latest coverage of Covid-19 see here. Read Siouxsie Wiles’s work here. New Zealand is currently in alert level two – read The Spinoff’s giant explainer about what that means here. For official government advice, see here.The Spinoff’s coverage of the Covid-19 outbreak is made possible thanks to donations from Spinoff Members. ...
One press statement from the Beehive yesterday sounded more like advertising – or a barker’s pitch – than a Government announcement. Another advised of two diplomatic appointment, one of them – has the woman who landed the post done something wrong? – to protest-troubled and politically volatile Hong Kong. And ...
It’s not often that someone graduates from university one year and becomes a senior economist commentating on national media the next. George Driver investigates the meteoric rise of the high-flying Brad Olsen.Google “senior economist Brad Olsen” and you’ll find him quoted in no fewer than 167 articles in the past ...
As public sentiment turned against Uber Eats, a new local operation emerged promising a more ethical alternative to help New Zealand’s struggling hospitality industry. But now Eat Local NZ has suspended trading after falling out with its Australian partner Mr Yum. So what happened?A dispute between local hospitality platform Eat ...
By Budi Sutrisno in Jakarta As the death of George Floyd, an African-American man who died while being arrested in the United States, sparks a global outcry, Indonesian rights advocates and young people have stepped forward to remind fellow citizens that racism has long been an issue at home as ...
Edward Cullen became a vampire to survive the Spanish flu pandemic of 1918. Now a new Twilight novel looms and Laura Surynt, a New Zealander living in the UK, wants to live forever too. As I lay in bed this morning watching Instagram stories, Tayi Tibble told my reluctant little Capricorn ...
Over the lockdown period, thousands of people joined a Facebook group dedicated to remembering the nightlife of inner-city Auckland. Its creator Simon Grigg explains why it touched a chord in lockdown.Within a few days of The Lost Nightlife of Inner-city Auckland Facebook page accidentally going live on May 12, we ...
Throughout Anglo colonial states there is a constant habit of defining people who aren’t white as a problem, writes Aaron Smale in this personal essay. It was a balmy summer evening in the capital and cops were standing over a young brown man. I was walking down Courtenay Place on ...
"The countdown clock ticks 2, then 1, then the prime minister raises her drink": dystopia, by Ōtautahi writer Laura Borrowdale. You stand in the centre of the room, and around you, the guests seem to swirl and blend into one. There’s a mouth, gaping and red, filled with laughter. A ...
Martin Luther King Jr said in 1963: “America has given the Black people a bad cheque, a cheque which has come back marked ‘insufficient funds’." Six generations of egregious police violence later, the sentiment out of which those bad cheques were born could be shifting. In the wake of egregious police violence, ...
WATCH: In a candid interview on Sky Sport, Dame Susan Devoy talks on her concern for rising sports stars, the state of NZ squash, and the spectre of racism. Dame Susan Devoy is proudly still “a little terrier who fights for the underdog”. “I have been doing it all my life and ...
Of the huge funding boost coming for early childhood education, Playcentre has been left with just the crumbs, writes Kate Barber. Amidst all the celebration of the $430m funding boost for early childhood education (ECE) announced in this year’s budget, little attention was paid to the plight of Playcentre. The ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Vikrant Minhas, PhD candidate, University of Adelaide Although bacteria are single-celled and microscopically small, they still need energy to survive, just like us. One of the most efficient ways of acquiring energy for bacteria is through sweet, soluble carbohydrates: sugars. In fact, ...
PACIFIC PANDEMIC DIARY:By David Robie Three cartoonists had especially poignant takes on the tragic and toxic political aftermath of martyr George Floyd’s brutal killing under the knee of a white American policeman in Minneapolis last week. The Boston Globe’s Christopher Weyant featured a split frame contrasting a red-capped “Make ...
Are central bankers jealous that epidemiologists are the rock stars of the current crisis?There is talk that both the British and New Zealand central banks might institute negative interest rates as part of the policy response to the Covid shock. While Sweden’s central bank ended its five year experiment ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Monika Sarder, Senior Strategic Analyst, Monash University Algorithmic decision-making has enormous potential to do good. From identifying priority areas for first response after an earthquake hits, to identifying those at risk of COVID-19 within minutes, their application has proven hugely beneficial. But ...
LISTEN: This week's Extra Time podcast discusses racism in sport and the role of athletes and organisations in making a stand for good. Former Silver Fern and Black Fern Louisa Wall believes today's sports stars must have a social conscience and stand up against discrimination and divisiveness. Sport and politics, once ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Emma Thomas, Associate professor, Flinders University We have seen ten days of protests in the United States over the death of George Floyd. While thousands of people have gathered to express their outrage peacefully, some demonstrations have been marred by vandalism and ...
40 percent of millennials have one, and an increasing number of GenXers and Baby Boomers do too. Two Cents' Worth delves into the world of side hustles. ...
Auckland writer Caroline Barron has a terrific book out today called Ripiro Beach: A Memoir of Life After Near Death. Here, she writes about the memoirs that have been a balm, a lesson, or both. Throughout my life, I’ve sought solace between the covers of books, particularly memoirs. There, I’ve learnt ...
An exclusive interview with Steve McSteverson about his traumatic and tragic ordeal this week.Many New Zealanders are struggling with the news that a children’s book not commissioned or authorised by Jacinda Ardern was advertised in a newsletter for children’s books. This horrific attack on New Zealanders whose ears are permanently ...
Air New Zealand staff are dismayed and angered at the company’s announcement to cut a further $150 million from their wage bill. On Friday, the company’s Chief Executive Officer, Greg Foran, made the announcement to employees, who are still ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Dr. Bodean Hedwards, Lecturer, Monash University This week the leaders of India and Australia reaffirmed their mutual interest in closer diplomatic and economic ties. Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi told Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison during their long-delayed Thursday “virtual summit”: ...
The Herald reported this morning that MediaWorks was on the verge of selling its TV assets to US TV giant Discovery – but an internal email and senior source suggest the story may have been premature.A senior MediaWorks source has emphatically denied a report in the NZ Herald that a ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Gery Karantzas, Associate professor in Social Psychology / Relationship Science, Deakin University Life in lockdown has been tough on many relationships. But negotiating the transition back to “normal” as restrictions continue to lift could also be a challenge for couples. So what ...
A slight bounce in the economy is brightening the outlook as the country heads into the winter months, Radio NZ reports. Retail spending is up and NZ shares rose on Thursday for a third day running. Key indicators have led some economists to point to a faster recovery than expected. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Geoff Hanmer, Adjunct Professor of Architecture, University of Adelaide HomeBuilder is a good idea gone bad. It is possibly the most complex and least equitable program the government could have devised to deliver construction jobs. It gives $25,000 to people who already ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Peter Keller, Professor of Cognitive Science, Western Sydney University The coronavirus pandemic has silenced the world’s concert halls and opera theatres. Organisations specialising in live performance face an existential crisis under current restrictions on social gatherings, with up to 75% of people ...
Finance Minister Grant Robertson, wearing his Sport and Recreation ministerial hat, can show he can be a big spender and draw voters’ attention to his largess each time he dispenses money from the funds under his control – or the control of an agency within his ministerial bailiwick. Yesterday he ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Pi-Shen Seet, Professor of Entrepreneurship and Innovation, Edith Cowan University Scott Morrison wants to overhaul the skills workforce to ensure a better post-COVID-19 recovery. But there may not be enough people with the necessary skills to do so. And travel restrictions, which ...
As we transition out of a Covid-focused world and prepare for what comes next, New Zealand’s ICT industry is gearing towards growth.From app development helping track the Covid-19 virus to website engineering keeping businesses in touch and online, ICT knowledge has been crucial to keeping New Zealand working over the ...
Analysis: As New Zealand eases restrictions, it no longer has international precedent to look towards and must decide on its own how to reopen the economy while reducing the risk of a second wave of infections, Marc Daalder reports While most of the country eagerly awaits a likely move to ...
Ten days is too long. That from insurance claimant advocate, Ali Jones. EQC has today made contact with homeowners via email after accidentally releasing confidential details of 8000 insurance claims on May 26. Jones says although she has not received ...
The only published and available best-selling indie book chart in New Zealand is the top 10 sales list recorded every week at Unity Books’ stores in High St, Auckland, and Willis St, Wellington.AUCKLAND1 Girl, Woman, Other by Bernadine Evaristo (Penguin Classics, $24)Winner of the 2019 Booker Prize. The other day, ...
Simon Day discovers how the voluntary carbon market allows both individuals and companies to offset their emissions at the same time as investing in native forest regeneration.When Celia Wade-Brown sold her first batch of carbon credits earned from the native forest on her Wairarapa farm, she had two customers: Z ...
Simon Day discovers how the voluntary carbon market allows both individuals and companies to offset their emissions at the same time as investing in native forest regeneration.When Celia Wade-Brown sold her first batch of carbon credits earned from the native forest on her Wairarapa farm, she had two customers: Z ...
Analysis by Keith Rankin. Keith Rankin. The conversation around the 2020 covid19 pandemic has been widely framed as ‘health versus the economy’. It has been quite political, with people leaning to the left emphasising ‘health’, and people leaning to the right emphasising ‘the economy’. A couple of weeks ago ...
Sam Brooks pays tribute to Alex Rider, and the new TV series that (finally) captures the spirit of the books.“What if James Bond was a teenager?”The concept for Anthony Horowitz’s Alex Rider series is so simple but so brilliant. There’s a reason why the franchise has managed to sustain 12 ...
Analysis - The PM resists pressure to move immediately to level 1, Winston Peters' tactics play into the hands of the Opposition and the government at last works out a commercial rent solution, writes Peter Wilson. ...
Source: Council on Hemispheric Affairs – Analysis-Reportage By COHAFrom Washington DC Federal charges against the four protectors of the Venezuelan Embassy, who defended the building in Washington DC against violent opposition crowds for several weeks between April 10 and May 16 of 2019, were completely dropped in a case that ...
Source: Council on Hemispheric Affairs – Analysis-Reportage By COHA Editorial TeamFrom Washington DC The Council on Hemispheric Affairs (COHA) joins the Black Alliance for Peace[1] and other pro-democracy organizations throughout the world in calling for the United Nations to address the systemic violations of human rights by the police and ...
Being shot by police had a profound, transformational effect on Rob Mokaraka’s life in more ways than you’d expect. A new documentary, airing on Māori TV at 7.30pm on Sunday, explores the work he’s done to heal his own mind and to ensure nobody has to go through the same ...
Human rights watchdog TAPOL has condemned the demand by Indonesian prosecutors seeking 17 and five years imprisonment for West Papuan activists Buchtar Tabuni and Irwanus Uropmabin. On June 2, the Jayapura District Prosecutor’s Office issued 33 pages containing charges against the defendant Irwanus Uropmabin. In the document, the Public Prosecutor ...
The arrival of Dan Carter is far from the first time the ever-struggling Auckland team has hoped to turn around its fortunes with a star signing, writes Jamie Wall.New Zealand rugby Twitter is a generally desolate place, especially lately given that there’s been nothing to talk about ever since the ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Robyn J. Whitaker, Senior Lecturer in New Testament, Pilgrim Theological College, University of Divinity US President Donald Trump delivered an address this week in which he threatened military action on the nation. Then he walked to the nearby St John’s Episcopal Church ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Vincent Ho, Senior Lecturer and clinical academic gastroenterologist, Western Sydney University Why do we burp? We sometimes also burp before meals, why does this happen? — Ahaana, age 7 That is a really interesting question, Ahaana! There ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Justine Bell-James, Associate Professor, TC Beirne School of Law, The University of Queensland After years of litigation, Australia’s highest court will today make a major decision on the fate of the controversial proposed expansion to the New Acland Coal mine in Queensland. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Nicholas Williams, Associate Professor in Urban Ecology and Urban Horticulture, University of Melbourne Tomorrow is the first World Green Roof Day. Cities around the world will celebrate the well-documented environmental, economic and social benefits of green roofs. New ground-level green spaces are ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Elise Klein, Senior Lecturer, Crawford School of Public Policy, Australian National University Robodebt isn’t the only measure the government should consider withdrawing. Late last Friday, after a long press conference from the prime minister which avoided any mention of the topic, the ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Richard Holden, Professor of Economics, UNSW Harvard University’s Alberto Alesina died suddenly of a heart attack on May 23. He was 63. His long-time colleague and friend Larry Summers wrote that before him, “there was no academic field of political economy. Today, ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Julian Meyrick, Professor of Creative Arts, Griffith University What keeps democracies together? As America burns, Brazilians die and Europe braces for another wave of the coronavirus, the question assumes an alarming immediacy. If the answer is complicated in one way, it is ...
For all The Spinoff’s latest coverage of Covid-19 see here. Read Siouxsie Wiles’s work here. New Zealand is currently in alert level two – read The Spinoff’s giant explainer about what that means here. For official government advice, see here.The Spinoff’s coverage of the Covid-19 outbreak is made possible thanks to donations from Spinoff Members. ...
Good morning and welcome to The Bulletin. In today’s edition: Millions of dollars divvied up by Sport NZ, MSD’s problem with wrongly denied payments grows, and internal coalition battles emerge in time for election.It’s Friday, and there hasn’t been a lot of it recently, so we’re going to start with ...
The Government picks Waitomo caves as 'strategic tourism asset' and grants $4m to Tourism Holdings, boosting shares another 7.8 percent. Facebook staff and alumni revolt over Zuckerberg's inaction on Trump ...
This week's biggest-selling New Zealand books, as recorded by the Nielsen BookScan NZ bestseller list and described by ReadingRoom literary editor Steve Braunias.NON-FICTION 1 Vegful by Nadia Lim (Nude Food, $55) 2 Stop Surviving Start Fighting by Jazz Thornton (Penguin Random House, $38) 3 So Delish! by Simone Anderson ...
Systemic white violence against black Americans is alive and well, and it's white violence that sustains white supremacy Current scenes from the United States are both familiar and shocking. George Floyd’s life being brutally snuffed out by Minneapolis police, followed by peaceful protests of Floyd’s murder as well as legitimate ...
The US isn't the only country with a broken criminal justice system that works to criminalise and destroy the lives of black and brown families. Dylan Asafo puts forward two ways NZ could lead in dismantling systems of white supremacy. If you were to imagine a society without racial oppression, ...
Open Mike 11/01/2017 
A chronological listing of news articles linked to on the Skeptical Science Facebook Page during the past week: Sun, May 31 through Sat, June 6, 2020 Editor's Choice The world must seize this opportunity to meet the climate challenge As current and former central bankers, we believe the pandemic offers ...6 hours ago
The 60 Years of New Zealand Television celebrations, such as they were, seemed to rely heavily on the classics: here we go again with Lynn of Tawa, A Week of It and the Country Calendar spoofs. Wonderful highlights of our televisual past, to be sure, but after hearing Paul Holmes’ ...22 hours ago
The Two Americas Collide: You gotta love the Americans marching for George Floyd and the fragile promises of the US Constitution. But, you also gotta keep your eye on the pale rider in the White House, and understand that behind him Hell follows.THE FRAGILITY of democracy’s promise is becoming clearer ...1 day ago
Oliver Twist, famously asked for ‘more’. He did not challenge the system of workhouses – Dickens did – nor the authority of Beadle Bumble. He was only nine. I am often struck how critics of the current income maintenance system are like Oliver Twist. They ask for more, but they ...2 days ago
New Zealand’s history as a sheep-farming nation means the command “Get in behind!” has long had a particular resonance — but not usually for journalists. However, in late March, as panic over the coronavirus pandemic surged around the world, Dr Gavin Ellis — former editor-in-chief of the NZ Herald — ...2 days ago
When the New Zealand Police started using Armed Response Teams - gangs of heavily-armed police cruising Māori-Pacifica neighbourhoods in juiced-up gun-trucks - they told us it was a "trial". But it turns out that those armed police - who were mainly doing traffic stops and bail checks, rather than the ...2 days ago
Another study comparing effect in children from nonendemic areas (Dagang) and endemic fluorosis area (Jinghai) about 80km apart in the Tianjin area of China. Hardly sampling the same population. Anti-fluoride campaigners still use studies from ... 3 days ago
George Thomson, Nick Wilson, Richard Edwards This blog discusses the passing of the Smoke-free Environments (Prohibiting Smoking in Motor Vehicles Carrying Children) Amendment Act last week. We briefly review some lessons from this legislation’s long journey and explore future smokefree possibilities in Aotearoa / New Zealand. A law ...3 days ago
Bernard Hickey is one of New Zealand’s leading financial journalists. His latest article, published by Newsroom, lays bare the cruel treatment of hundreds of thousands of workers stranded since the lockdown. Our Prime Minister is lauded overseas for her compassion, but her Cabinet is refusing to properly support tens of ...4 days ago
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Ag 2.0 – How agricultural tech advances will completely disrupt NZ’s traditional models: http://pureadvantage.org/news/2016/11/29/lament-nz-farm/
Interesting article.
I don’t think we’re quite as stuffed as the author makes us out to be or at least not in the short to medium term.
There’s one key issue she missed out and that is consumer enthusiasm to these new types of food, the whole frankenfood, heavily processed mindset is going to take quite a bit of time to overcome.
Positioning ourselves going forward though, organics has to be the future for NZ food production aim for those people who still want their food “natural’
Yes there is a resistance to ‘frankenfoods’ and there is also a growing grasp of the connection between a plant based diet and a lower carbon footprint.
That and the growing realisation that cows milk is not actually good for us.
I agree that organically is the way forward.
I recommend you watch ‘Cowspiracy.’
I recommend that you don’t as it was obviously a load of bollocks written up by an ignoramus.
You deny the massive carbon footprint of animal farming?
No. I deny the lies that are the basis for Cowspiracy.
I am glad we agree that stopping eating animals is the biggest thing we can do to mitigate our carbon footprint.
8.4 on IMDB.
I also don’t recommend Cowspiracy, as it is a fundamentalist vegan propaganda film that takes far too many liberties with the truth in presenting its argument. I’ve critiqued this before – It seems to be comparing industrial stock farming with industrial agriculture and deciding that industrial agriculture is best. Both are highly polluting and destroy ecologies. Swapping one for the other out of ideological concerns just creates different problems, what we need to do instead is make all farming sustainable and regenerative.
A review of the film,
http://cairncrestfarm.blogspot.co.nz/2014/10/cowspiracy-movie-review.html
I’d also add that in this discussion we need to distinguish between industrial farming designed to produce commodities to make money, and the need to have people growing food so we can eat. They are two different things entirely. Saying we should all be vegan supports industrial farming, because it pushes shifting from feedlot cows to monsanto soy. Neither are viable in a world of CC or a world that desperately needs to protect the environment.
You deny the massive carbon footprint of animal farming?
No.
Did you fail to understand my points?
Eating meat is the single most destructive thing you can do to the environment.
So someone who eats meat from rabbits raised in their backyard is engaged in the single most destructive thing they can do to the environment?
Your ideology is blinding you Paul. Stop and think about what you just said.
99% of people do not eat that way
According to the IPCC Agriculture in total accounts for only 13.5% of Greenhouse emissions, so that cannot be true Paul.
link please.
https://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar5/syr/
Click on 5th assessment Report, and see page 88.
Ta. Run it past Bill. I don’t remember the details (because I think the maths are a distraction), but from what I remember the ag figures are not a good representation of the state of play. Something to do with what they include in ag and what they don’t.
Plus there’s the food miles issue with eating meat (or eating anything).
Don’t know about that Weka, My understanding is that deforestation is included in agriculture among other things, so if you get down just to animal farming you are looking at much less than 14%?
What I do know is that it proves that PAUL’S documentary is a lying piece of propaganda shit.
And just for once, I’d like PAUL to stick around and keep discussing things when the FACTS don’t suit the lying propaganda he is posting….
Guess he’ll just go away for the night and then start up in the morning raving about the lying propaganda that doesn’t agree with his own lying propaganda….
Watch ‘Before the Flood.’
You might learn something.
Trying to shift the ground Paul?
Why don’t you just address the lies in the previous propaganda you recommended?
“And just for once, I’d like PAUL to stick around and keep discussing things when the FACTS don’t suit the lying propaganda he is posting….”
Yes, I see what you mean.
Eating meat is the single most destructive thing you can do to the environment.
Quite apart from being wrong on the face of it (as others have explained), it’s also wrong at a deeper level: eating grass-fed livestock is better for the environment than eating crop plants. Get everyone on the planet eating soy and before long you’ll be wondering why there’s no topsoil any more.
Yep, although conventional livestock farming also depletes soil, just a bit slower.
Simple idea: we only grow the food required for our own population +20% for export.
That should get rid of a few million heads of livestock.
Permaculture is the solution.
Or, eating grass-fed livestock is the solution. Comes down to whether you prefer some soy-based edible object to a slab of meat or not. Don’t find it a difficult choice, myself, but maybe that’s just me.
Grassfed livestock uses up a massive carbon footprint.
Watch Di Caprio’s recent film ‘Before the Flood.’ – if you are suspicious of Cowspiracy.
Of course there is also the issue of animal cruelty.
Watch ‘Earthlings.’
And the health issues.
Watch ‘Fork over knives.’
“Permaculture is the solution.”
on that we can agree Paul (or at least it’s one of the solutions).
I’d say decreasing the Earths population was the number one strategy personally.
How would you do that? And by how much? And how would you stop the remaining people from burning fossil fuels and generally polluting the place?
‘How would you do that?’
Exactly the same way you would have people shift to perma-culture / power-down’/ go back to manual labour Weka.
You need social agreement it is necessary, and a socially agreed plan to make it happen.
It’s a tough one, but the Worlds population cannot simply keep growing can it?
‘And by how much?’
4 Billion sounds good to me. Take a few centuries to achieve.
‘And how would you stop the remaining people from burning fossil fuels and generally polluting the place?’
I’ve just spent a month in Asia and Europe on business, and from what i saw, my answer would be, ‘wouldn’t have the faintest idea!’.
Aotearoa is a tiny wee cocoon of tranquility. The pace and frenzy of the drive for ‘development’ in the emerging countries is way beyond anything I could envisage a mechanism for holding back.
We don’t have a few centuries. Post going up today for discussion.
Tonight I’m cooking steaks just to annoy you Paul.
Not in the short term. The medium term should be the crossover period and the long term is when we replant our farms as native forest.
Doubt it. People have been eating ‘frankenfoods’ for awhile – pretty much anything that comes pre-made fits that bill.
I would suggest and am an advocate for more of a Robert Guyton approach where we plant with biodiversity in mind. Natives are at their best supplemented by various imports a favourite plant of mine (or weed to some) is Verbena bonariensis. The insect life, not to mention bees it supports is unreal and it kicks in right after Muehlenbeckia axillaris which bees love.
Talking about NZ going more to organic reminds me that I heard the Falkland Islands were into that.
I think we should establish High Commissioners and set up as sister countries. They seem to have cool headed people making governmental decisions and have ideas that we should talk about, and vice versa. And Falklands are similar to us, next to a hostile country as we are to Australia – which is ready to stand on our shoulders to achieve advantage for themselves and government ready to show disrespect like the boors they are.
http://www.falklands.gov.fk/self-sufficiency/commercial-sectors/agriculture
http://organic-market.info/news-in-brief-and-reports-article/_Falkland_Islands.html/farm.
google Falkland Islands organic farming
Oh, Give Me a Home, Where the Sheep and the … – Modern Farmer
modernfarmer.com/2016/02/falkland-islands/
Feb 4, 2016 – The Falkland Islands are a wildlife sanctuary turned organic
Those Sci-fi books and movies showing machines that could be dialed up from stored ingredients and a synthetic steak pops out of the wall, are maybe a future much closer?
A very interesting article thanks Sacha. Can you imagine the ponderous Government machine adapting to swift changes? What about the poor old dairy farmers?
And how will I manage synthetic steaks? What about the sugar industry?
Actually the whole World economy would be in for a huge shake up?
Actually, I can. What I can’t imagine is the private sector adapting to it as they need things to remain the same for them to make a profit.
Yep. We can kiss goodbye to trade in food. Why import when everything that the city needs and wants can be produced in the city?
Those Sci-fi books and movies showing machines that could be dialed up from stored ingredients and a synthetic steak pops out of the wall, are maybe a future much closer?
A very interesting article thanks Sacha. Can you imagine the ponderous Government machine adapting to swift changes? What about the poor old dairy farmers?
And how will I manage synthetic steaks? What about the sugar industry?
Actually the whole World economy would be in for a huge shake up.
I find articles like this really annoying – not due to anything the author writes, but because it rubs my nose in the fact that NZ used to be at the forefront of agricultural science but is no longer, and the outlook isn’t for improvement. We’ve had decades of a deadly combination: right-wing governments hollowing out the country’s public science research facilities, and hippies fighting against scientific experimentation in agriculture. Yes we’re going to get disrupted, and we’ve only ourselves to blame.
and we’ve only ourselves to blame.
I don’t quite agree, What the author was trying to point out that what made us unique and successful( clean green, plenty of space) is no longer important or even needed.
You can now have a “dairy farm” in the middle of the Sahara, you can have a “dairy farm” in the middle of a Nestle chocolate factory.
These “dairy farms” can produce a product that is healthier than the original with no animal cruelty, minimal environmental damage and can be just about anywhere.
it’s unfortunate for NZ but large scale traditional dairying has been or soon will be superseded by this technology, it’s going the way of the dinosaur.
Given the environmental effects of large-scale dairy farming, it would be great if it became a niche business practiced only on a small scale.
I’ve eaten what Americans fondly imagine to be cheese, and believe we don’t need to be seriously threatened by American start-ups of non-agriculture-based food IF we stop holding back our own ag/food research. That’s “if” in capitals and italics because it’s a very big “if” and I don’t see a strong likelihood of us doing it.
One thing I have noticed is how strongly attitudes have changed in regards to the environment/animal welfare, especially with the current generation.
Take for example the electric car, it used to be the only selling point was that it would save you money, now the main selling point is that they’re eco-friendly which means you’re doing your bit for climate change, saving the world etc.
The same mindset is what will make this next generation food popular, thanks to the internet people now know that dairy is terrible for the environment, milk isn’t particularly good for you even though it tastes nice and there’s lots of animal cruelty that goes into the creation of dairy.
That is what’s going to be the big driver of this going forward if the dairy industry wants to compete it needs a radical overhaul and as soon as possible, the longer they leave it the worse it will get for the industry
Just as an aside, the claim that milk isn’t good for you is a canard. Lactose tolerance is a poster boy for human evolution because it spread so rapidly through the population – that rapidity being due to the big survival advantage it conferred. Dairy is excellent food and the people without lactose tolerance are really missing out.
No arguments re the problems associated with it as an industry, though.
Answer to BM @ 11.31am
Shit I hope this is not going to be a trend in 2017 but I agree with you BM 100%
I know right. Pfft to commercial agriculture. Shit taste like water and saw dust cause it’s stored longer and less nutritious. BM trying to sell dog shit again
Just remembered an old favourite song , humming it now .a rollicking version of (Cows with guns}
“I’ve eaten what Americans fondly imagine to be cheese”
Trust me, there are many places you can get a variety of interesting tasty cheeses in the US. Just not in Wisconsin.
Yes any good shop which has a wide selection of European foodstuffs
You’ve never been to San Francisco if you think that.
I guess they have proper cheese in delis and suchlike. But in cafes and restaurants I stopped ordering anything that said it had cheese in it, because the bizarre white or orange stuff they were referring to wouldn’t be anything I’d recognise as cheese.
Just gotta love those business consultants.
David Skilling she ain’t.
Bad business consultants like the writer generate answers that always start with:
pile dumploads of private capital into something really risky, and pile dumploads of crap all over everything happening now, and trash every regulation you could possibly imagine might get in your way.
Can anyone tell me where we’ve heard that before?
– Sharemarket in the 1980s and 1990s
– Real estate and residential construction market 2007-2016
– GMOs in the late 2000s, within our CRI’s
– Mining and oil 2008-2015
And each one, tears before bedtime and generations of wasted capital generated fuck-all.
And yet here we are, economy doing about as well as it has ever done in our existence, diversifying as fast as it ever has, but some nutjob with a PhD in wank and a logframe and some travel expenses and a free-hit column and some great billable units to achieve gets to tell us the whole of agriculture is a sunset industry.
She should cut the horse manure and start a new essay with:
What do our customers want, and what will those customers pay the most for?
rodger douglas went on about farming being a sunset industry in the 80S and yet we’re still here still going strong.
The buggy-whip industry was still going strong right up until it wasn’t.
still is by the look of this
http://www.drivingessentials.com/Whips.php
A stone adze would be a better example.
they just had to diversify into new market segments
B & D supplies. 🙂
Now, did I say that 😛 😀
Douglas actually believed that the reforms he forced upon us would liberate the tech sector. Instead it set it back decades.
The point that he didn’t understand, and probably still doesn’t, is that the tech sector was built by the governments of the world – not free-market capitalists. Capitalists do the cheap and easy stuff that they can make a profit out of while it’s government that does the hard stuff that a profit can never be produced from.
Dams be damned.
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/09/dams-building-let-rivers-flow
And on the subject read Derreck Jensen.
Derrick Jensen on dams.
I liked the retro 70’s porn music in the vid.
Yes, but compare to the alternatives:
Fossil Fuels – self explanatorily bad
Solar – land and habitat loss, requires significant raw and rare materials mined (rather than just a one-off large concrete pour). Not suitable for all locations due to climate.
Wind – shreds birds. Massive visual blot on the landscape and again not suitable for many locations.
Nuclear – promising but currently suffers from environmental issues due to waste problem. Expensive and vulnerable to technical problems.
Geothermal – great, only works in select locations though.
If we want to go clean, hydro power has a significant role to play, at least in New Zealand. Other countries might find it better to plop large scale solar in the desert or build next-gen nuclear plants, but NZ’s hydro electric backbone is fantastic.
Or we could power down. Let’s not pretend there aren’t other choices here.
Exactly, I’m going shopping for a new club and fur skin outfit this afternoon.
[you’re a fucking idiot who has no idea what powerdown even means. Don’t troll me, I’m not in the mood. You’re quite capable of engaging in intelligent debate, so I suggest you make some choices along those lines and stop with the soundbite baiting – weka]
Any political party promoting power down as an option for the nation?
What Johm Key has done to New Zealand as prime minister is similar to a friend who bought a WRX straight off the dock, pulled out to the lights to see how fast he could do a 1/4 mile and cooked the engine. Only in New Zealand’s case it’s going to take at least 20 years to become apparent that National can’t drive for shit.
Call AAA immediately
*facedesk*
Paying $120 to get such a vehicle carried to your local mechanics for a thorough going over, all new fluids and filters, BEFORE hammering it is the way to do it
Those were great days I reflect on fondly. We were truely entitled
I was always a VTEC lad myself
Roatary was my thing, never quite got the upgraded rocket car I mean the proper batmobile I always wanted
Powering down, as you label it, isn’t really an option – it’s a necessity.
Putting all of the non-fossil suggestions that Brutus has mentioned in place would take decades – assuming we undertook such a task. And if our energy consumption patterns continued ‘as is’ while all that infrastructure got put in place, then carbon budget after carbon budget would get busted and the average global surface temperature would keep going up.
And I know you kind of hate numbers, but effective powering down isn’t a uniform scenario that can or even ought to be equally applied across all of society (or all societies). There is a huge class element involved due to the major culprits in terms of emissions tending to be richer people. (Roughly, the wealthiest 10% are responsible for about 50% of emissions according to studies done by Oxfam and others)
And richer people tend to be resistant to giving up their privilege and ‘ways’ – they’ll find a way adapt to a changing climate. Delusional, I know. As Yoda might say – the ‘she’ll be right’ is strong in those ones.
And richer people tend to be the ones heading up institutions we’ve tasked with organising and managing responses to climate change.
Nothing up-beat from this quarter today I’m afraid. There’ll be calamities. But since the first will be affecting (are affecting) poorer people far away in equatorial and tropical regions, we’ll just carry on. Eventually the effects will come down on our heads (on the poorest first and hardest of course) and the rich will likely just kind of carry on as best they can (move house, emigrate, lay in highly individualistic or atomised adaptation measures etc).
Eventually, as a society we’ll act.
thanks for going into that in more depth Bill. And yep, class and CC.
It’s not so much that I don’t like the numbers, it’s that the I think the wrong maths are being done or at least some important maths isn’t being done yet. For instance, if what you say is true, that rich people disproportionately create/are responsible for more the problem (I believe this too), and that we therefore shouldn’t apply the power down uniformly across the nation (I also agree), and that therefore we should focus on rich people not poor people (I’m talking in NZ here, not somewhere like Somalia), then I’d say we need a different analysis as well. As you know, I think that most people in NZ need change, not just rich and well off people.
For instance, if we were to look at, in NZ, stopping all fossil fuel power generation, decommissioning dams, and possibly building some interim wind farms but acknowledging that they have their own problems, what standard of living could we expect in NZ? (and allowing for this being a thought experiment, so I get that there are all sorts of other things to take into account like transport and agriculture). Whose standard of living could we sustain? Middle class? Lower middle class? Working class? Underclass? BM’s fantasy of cave dwelling?
This is similar to when I talk about food and population. If we need to source most of our food locally and sustainably/regeneratively, how much food can we grow in each catchment in NZ?
It’s just another approach. I come to it from permaculture, which starts with those ecological principles and works out. I’d like to think about that more in terms of class, not just at the social justice level but also because I think that many of us are going to have to do physical work again (e.g. growing food). If we have a culture hell bent on ‘working class’ being something to avoid or move out of, how is that going to work out?
“but effective powering down isn’t a uniform scenario that can or even ought to be equally applied across all of society (or all societies).”
That’s an interesting way to approach this too. If by uniform you mean everyone takes a % cut downwards, then yep that’s grossly unfair and probably wouldn’t be helpful anyway. But if by uniform we look at a range of standards of living to aspire down to or up to depending on where one is currently, then I can see that being both useful and fair.
Your fantasies of some sort of communal agrarian society inevitably clash with human nature.
Assuming we were to all “return to the land”, the problem isn’t solved. Pre-industrial societies also suffered ecological devastation due to overpopulation and the inability to preserve and ration resources – as Easter island showed.
So you would of course need some sort of central authority to enforce environmental regulations in order to prevent the tragedy of the commons. Not only that, by forcing people back into lives of manual labour, considerable inequity would be generated – a society for the young, strong and able bodied effectively. The central authority would need to rectify these imbalances. Such a bureaucracy would require money, energy, and the ability to apply force to ensure compliance.
You end up right back at the beginning – just as agricultural humans originally formed governments to order their affairs and acquire the resources necessary to fulfil the desires of their citizens. Which then becomes just another beast to be fed as different views vie for influence.
And so we are back to square one.
You have to understand, there’s no voluntarily going back. Only war, genocide, pandemics, and natural disasters could “achieve” what you seek.
I don’t think you understand what the Powerdown is, and you certainly are misinterpreting my own views. Can you please stop doing that, thanks.
Let’s try another starting point. If you believe in a steady state country, how would you propose we stabilise the population?
Our natural population increase in New Zealand is almost zero – that part is taken care of. We can’t dictate to the rest of the world what they do, but we can make appropriate policies for our environment and country.
Also have replied to you below…
Do you believe in perpetual motion machines?
Are you suggesting limits on immigration then?
We already do have them, but they could be tightened further especially given the number of NZ’ers already living overseas. If they all arrived back at once we simply wouldn’t be able to handle it.
Let me clearer, do you support limiting immigration so we have steady population instead of an increasing one?
His argument is similar to maori’s. If we let them in Aotearoa won’t handle it.
Rolling my eyes at the casual racism there.
NZ is a finite space. There’s only so many people that can fit here. Far less if we want to do it sustainably.
Yep, harsh limits. No more than 10,000 immigrants per year, very carefully chosen people, under 40 years of age.
Please explain why nothing could be produced in a post fossil world?
Please explain what is so ‘against human nature’ about growing food, raising livestock or living socially (communally)?
Please explain why a central authority is a prerequisite for order?
Please explain your adherence to the utterly discredited notion of ‘the tragedy of the commons’?
Please explain how it would be the case that people in whatever post fossil world would somehow lose the ability for empathy?
Why do you think the choice is between regressing to some mythical misanthropic Hobbesian world or just staying more or less as we are? What happened to the future!
1. It can, of course.
2. It’s not, but why did such societies end?
3. Obvious. Communes over time begin to build their own identity to the exclusion of others from developing their own micro-culture. One group/commune organises itself to infringe/take more of the pie. That’s essentially the story of human history.
4. It’s not discredited, but it has been worked around at times. It’s still a reasonable basis for the argument though.
5. You may be empathetic, but in such a society, all it takes is for one group to not be and the party is over.
2. many societies and many stories. Not all societies ‘ended’. Plenty of agrarian cultures/societies exist around the world today.
3. is a half arsed but passable description of the dynamics of capitalism, not human society/history.
4. There never was any ‘tragedy of the commons’.
5. isn’t true. All societies have ways of regulating behaviours or traits that are deleterious.
Your assertions are simply wrong. Human conflict is not just a result of capitalism, as you suggest.
We are the culmination of an evolutionary process that has ensured our survival while resulting in both good and bad traits.
We know (or it’s claimed) that the poorest 50% of people in NZ produce 10% of NZ’s emissions. So if we want to see a substantial ‘overnight’ drop in NZ energy related emissions, then everyone would have to be living as half of us already do.
Homelessness aside, know anyone who lives in a cave? I don’t.
So okay. The business trips and the global jaunts and the various consumer goods with the huge carbon footprints that most of us can’t buy anyway….gone.
Throw in legislation around efficiency ratings on cars, fridges, etc and a fair few of us would see our standard of living rise (less money spent on the fuel needed to run the various contraptions/appliances) I should add that there is currently little or no price difference between a hugely efficient appliance or car and a crap one.
That (getting on for) 90% drop in emissions would have minimal to no negative impact on most of us and (with an eye to whatever piddly carbon budget we still have left) buy us some time to lay in the supply side infrastructure that we’d need achieve the necessary zero emissions from energy.
Throwing this last bit in just because it astounds me.
Globally, if just the highest emitting 10% of US citizens dropped their emissions to a European average (which is still really bloody high), global emissions would drop by 30%.
How are the emissions of each individual quantified?
Pay for your own research cheap skate
You’d have to go read the Oxfam and Chaucer & Piketty studies /reports for an explanation of their methodology.
If you’ve flown in the last year, chances are you are in the top 50% of NZ emission emitters.
String me up then…
Eventually we’ll get sailing ships back for international trade, I can’t wait, now might be a good time for the herald to apologise to Russel Coats
http://newatlas.com/next-gen-ships-sails-lower-fuel-use/22289/
Your a fish
I was hoping to find some one to talk to. I was wrong
Massive diesel powered freight ships moving at five or six knots are still a very good deal per tonne of cargo moved, emissions-wise.
Maybe. But I wouldn’t use it for trade I’d stick carbon scrubbers on it. Make industry pay for it, it would be my Mexican wall
Well, the land and habitat loss is non-existent: Solar roadways and, of course, house roofs.
And, yes, solar does work in all climates. As long as the sun is up a solar panel will collect power. Of course, solar panels should be used in conjunction with other renewable generations such as wind and hydro.
Wind turbines do, occasionally, kill birds. So do cars. In fact, I’m pretty sure that cars actually kill more. And, no, they’re not a visual blot on the landscape at all – especially if you build them out to sea where they’ll also become an artificial reef helping sea life thrive. About the only place that wind can’t be directly placed is in cities.
Nuclear isn’t viable and it’s unsustainable.
We’ve pretty much tapped out all suitable hydro-generation in NZ. There’s really nowhere left to build hydro-dams in NZ.
Wind turbines do, occasionally, kill birds. So do cars. In fact, I’m pretty sure that cars actually kill more.
I was thinking about that the other day after seeing a sparrow bounce of my bonnet and hit the road behind me – if bird deaths are an argument against wind turbines, they’re an even bigger argument against road transport because there are millions of vehicles driving around. Strangely enough, I’ve never seen anyone argue motorised transport shouldn’t be used because birds, but it gets raised all the time for wind turbines.
“Strangely enough, I’ve never seen anyone argue motorised transport shouldn’t be used because birds, but it gets raised all the time for wind turbines.”
No, but if someone said hey I’ve got this great new technology that will allow us all individually to move around the place quickly, only it’s going to kill a few people, lots of birds and small mammals, create immediate air pollution that makes people sick and puts further strain on the health system, and be a major contributor to a global catastrophe, then who really would want cars?
‘then who really would want cars?’
The answer is ‘nearly everyone’ Weka. That’s the reality of human nature for ya!
I don’t mean to but in but that’s incorrect. Cars are a manufactured want. Just turn on your tv and watch an ad for more information
Call it whatever kind of want you like Clump, then get out into the street and have a look at the reality around you.
As Orwell said, ‘Propaganda only works on those who are already inclined to accept it’.
Or do you seriously believe that if there was no advertising of cars, no one would perceive any benefit in one, and no one would want one?
That’s what market makers say to, you’ve got a lot in common you know.
It’s also conceivable with the rise of VR googles, humans will live in apartments 24/7 with no need to venture outside because drones will bring them stuff and take stuff away and so on.
If you think I’m kidding just put on a set of VR and report back here
Sounds like you’ve already had too much VR Sam!
If I have I’ll adjust my schedule to maximise my earning potential so I become a winner out of all of this and not a loser
Visual pollution is a major problem with wind turbines – they’re incredibly spatially inefficient.
I’m not defending fossil fuels, i’m promoting certain solutions over others. You are correct on decentralised solar though as being very important.
As for “powering down”, that’s just modern Ludditism (?). There are certainly efficiency gains to be had, but trying to reduce aggregate demand for energy in the world without mass population culls isn’t mathematically feasible (if it was even desirable).
Environmental protection is entirely consistent with a steady-state population but advancing technology and prosperity – done correctly.
The visual thing is subjective. Most people seemingly like the look of them.
Spatially they’re good as well. You design their layout to suit the prevailing winds and, on land, the land can still be used for other things such as farming.
At sea you keep the same layout, get better wind capture and the benefits of a massive breeding ground for fish.
“Visual pollution” doesn’t exist, other than as a matter of personal taste. If a person finds the sight of man-made objects in the landscape unbearable, they’re hardly going to be able to live anywhere but in a national park.
I have never felt wind turbines are a visual pollution. Overseas where there are many areas with wind farms, usually in desolate or moorland type areas I have always seen them as a sculptural piece of art, eerie and stark against the skyline. Surreal in their own way, but as people on this site are saying its beauty in the eyes of the beholder. I think we should have many more of them out there on our skylines – its progress in action and an obviously cleaner substitute than fossil fuels.
“If a person finds the sight of man-made objects in the landscape unbearable, they’re hardly going to be able to live anywhere but in a national park.”
That’s not what people are referring to when they talk about visual pollution, so null argument there I’m afraid.
If their beef isn’t with man-made objects per se, it’s just a matter of personal taste, for which the term “visual pollution” is inappropriate. I don’t like the sight of people wearing sports gear as street clothes, but it would be pretentious to call it “visual pollution.”
It’s not the sight of man-made objects per se, it’s the impact of some man-made objects on the appreciation of natural beauty. Not all man-made objects. It’s a valid argument in itself, I’m sure you can think of places not to put industrial structures because of the visual impact (amongst other reasons). Or maybe not. Maybe having massive industrial structures next in a national park or next to a beautiful piece of architecture wouldn’t bother bother you. Many humans aren’t like that though.
I quite like the look of wind turbines myself, relative to other industrial structures, but there’s plenty of places I think they are inappropriate to put on visual grounds alone.
NZ’s wind turbines tend to be in places where there are also farms visible and/or the original forest cover has been removed by humans. I don’t see why someone should believe that’s OK but a wind turbine isn’t.
Some people value iconic bare landscapes /shrug. I get that you don’t understand this, but you not getting it doesn’t mean it’s not valid. Myself, I’d prefer to see the hills of somewhere like Central Otago reforested even if that means letting wilding pines grow. But I also understand that the people that grew up there that have a direct relationship with the place experience the place differently.
It’s not a black and white thing, land, or appreciation of beauty. Nor is it rational in the way you want it to be. We can apply rationality over it, but that’s not always the best thing to do esp as rationales are rarely pure and simply represent a different set of values. For instance, there’s no way in hell I’ll support a wind farm on the Lammerlaws so that Aucklanders can wear t-shirts in winter or people can have heated towel rails.
I get that you don’t understand this, but you not getting it doesn’t mean it’s not valid.
It’s valid, but it’s also just an opinion, or more accurately a personal preference. I get that people feel strongly about it, and their feelings on any subject are just as valid as mine, but feeling strongly about something isn’t an argument and can’t conjure something called “visual pollution” into existence.
ah, ok, I see what you are getting at. So pollution being something that can be objectively evaluated and probably measured?
Feeling strongly about something isn’t an argument but it can be used to make an argument. We do that all the time.
But “pollution” is the word that makes it a matter of opinion, not “visual”.
Nobody uses “pollution” to refer to harmless or positive stuff, be it light pollution, noise pollution, air pollution, or waterway pollution. It’s always a negative, and usually it’s a negative to the people mentioning it but not the people who discharged it. Nobody says “you’re polluting the stream with your fresh water” unless they fall for the “dihydrogen monoxide” joke.
“Pollution” is the loaded part of the term.
except at lay person level air pollution, noise pollution, water pollution all make sense, so why not visual pollution?
Because it’s arbitrary. If someone is looking out the window of their house and thinks that the farms they can see are OK, and the road to their house is OK, and the power lines bringing electricity to their house are OK, and the fences they and all the other farmers put up are OK, and the non-native animals all over the place are OK, but those wind turbines in the distance, those are visual pollution, they don’t really have a workable definition of “visual pollution” beyond “I think it spoils the view.”
I think you are just arguing from your own personal preferences now. As I’ve already said, one can experience a man-made object as interfering with beauty, but not experience all man-made objects doing so.
You’re right, I am arguing from my own personal preferences. I’m just saying it would be nice if wind turbine opponents would admit they’re doing the same, instead of inventing something called “visual pollution” so they can pretend they aren’t.
As for “powering down”, that’s just modern Ludditism (?). There are certainly efficiency gains to be had, but trying to reduce aggregate demand for energy in the world without mass population culls isn’t mathematically feasible (if it was even desirable).
Environmental protection is entirely consistent with a steady-state population but advancing technology and prosperity – done correctly.
Powering down is in fact feasible, and is what will happen anyway if we don’t do it. Every civilisation that’s collapsed has gone through enforced power down. I think what you mean is that you don’t know how to feed the world without fossil fuels (renewables require fossil fuels). It’s ok, there are people who know how to do this.
I’m theoretically good with the steady state idea, although I tend to think that ship has sailed, but the upteching you are advocating isn’t in fact steady state. Running a high tech society requires fossil fuels and GHG emissions (care to share how to build NZ style-hydro without concrete for instance?).
I would be interested to hear your ideas on population and steady state too.
The Luddites were right btw.
Well, one example of up-teching.
Consider the computing power in your phone – roughly equivalent to a supercomputer of the 60’s that sucked tremendous amounts of electricity. Now we have better functionality and ability to aid/perform tasks, sitting right there in your pocket.
In a resource sense, the old supercomputer physically used a lot more materials. If we keep growing the number of smartphones, obviously we will need to keep mining ad infinitum. But we can currently do a lot more with the same quantity materials than we used to.
But all the resources we have ever mined on earth are still here, they’ve just been converted into different forms. So the stuff from the ground is now in a building or in a landfill somewhere. Currently it’s hugely expensive to recycle, but cheap and abundant energy would solve all those issues along with many others. Soon we will be able to grow meat in a lab, and return farmland to forest.
At the core, it’s all just a physics problem.
TLDR is population level off + efficiency + tech + recycling could get us through without the need for unpalatable situations.
While I appreciate the efficiency argument, I’d point out two things. There is nothing even remotely sustainable about mobile phones in an ecological sense, so any argument around steady state via high tech would need to include how to make cell phones that were modular with replacement parts and that didn’t require destroying other parts of the planet. Which takes us neatly to social/political issues which efficiency has nothing to do with.
There is also the Jevon’s Paradox, which is also not solved by world views that propose high tech solutions to our predicament. Are you sure we are using the same quantity as in the 1960s, because I’m willing to bet we are using many many times more.
I agree with you about better use of resources e.g. mining landfills and more functional recycling, but where is the cheap and abundant energy going to come from?
How will we grow meat in a lab without fossil fuels (assuming it’s a good idea to base diets around, which I doubt)?
Wrong.
The materials can be mined using sustainable methods. Recycling using renewable energy means that once mined they’re available essentially forever.
The only thing that makes them unsustainable is that we have a tendency to throw them in landfills rather than recycling. We need to change that and make recycling mandatory.
We probably are but that’s not due to increasing tech but increasing population. If population had remained the same then the increase in tech level would have seen a decrease in resources used.
Renewable generation. As has been pointed out, there’s enough solar energy striking the Earth to maintain our present energy use without affecting the environment.
By the simple expedient of not using fossil fuels.
– Mandatory recycling protocols
– internalise environmental externalities in both raw material extraction, and industrial production
Won’t work very well without cheap energy, but improving solar and cold fusion might bail us out.
See. There you go again. I’m getting a very strong feeling you believe in perpetual motion machines.
It’s good to focus on economy but you have link it to ecology which no ones done except on the fringes orstudents interpreting the mass of data my and previous generations have collected but don’t fully understand
I totally missed the cold fusion reference. Is that a typo. Please xplain
Renewable energy is incredibly cheap. In fact, it’s always been cheaper than fossil fuels because it doesn’t need continuous inputs of fuel. It just needs the sun burning and it’s going to be doing that for the next five billion years without any help from us.
The problem is we will still be exploiting stored energy whether stored in stars, fission material or fossil fuels. Exploiting these free energy produces background radiation that seeps out of a process we’ve already over used. The only thing for it is to scale back and let Mother Nature work her self out
Further. If industry want to increase efficiency at the margins while acting with in the law they can pay for there own fucking research
“The materials can be mined using sustainable methods”
Rare materials are a finite resource. Yes, technically, if we stabilised the population and decided that only a percentage of them would get mobile phones at any one time, then we could produce them sustainably. But that’s not the situation we are in. It’s a literal impossibility to mine a small mineral resource sustainably at the scale we are talking about.
If you are intent on a somewhat aggressive argument (“wrong”), then I’ll just say that all your theoretical stuff fails when applied in the physical world. This is a classic example.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/mar/11/search-smartphone-soaked-blood
“We probably are but that’s not due to increasing tech but increasing population. If population had remained the same then the increase in tech level would have seen a decrease in resources used.”
Not just increasing population but increased demand per person for goods. We have far more electronics now per person than we used to.
Anyway, go ahead and explain how to build a wind farm without using FF or concrete. And by build, I mean in the real world, not the theoretical possibility.
And fully recyclable.
Yep. Completely agree with that. That’s why I keep saying that we need to set standards for trade. Shoddy practices like those described would immediately prevent trade with that country.
BTW, we do have sources of tungsten in NZ along with all of the other rare earths (which aren’t actually rare BTW).
Yes we do but each device uses far less resources than they used to and they achieve far more. A single 1960s mainframe would probably use more resources than several thousand PCs and yet each single PC far outstrips the capabilities of that mainframe.
Now think about what that would mean if we’d stabilised the population at the three billion of 1960.
No they don’t as I’ve explained to you several times before.
No they don’t as I’ve explained to you several times before.
as you’ve asserted several times before.
iffy.
Just out of curiosity weka, what bits of modern industrial society do you think can’t do without fossil fuels?
Broadly, fossil fuels are either burned for direct process heat, or burned in engines for mechanical power. Renewable electricity can easily substitute for both of those. Powering large ships is going to be difficult with renewables, but could go zero-carbon with nukes. Long-haul aviation needs liquid fuels, which could be biofuels.
Ok Andre, let’s play this out. Two examples then.
1. Wind farms. Please show me how they can be built, in the foreseeable future using zero fossil fuels. You’ll need to include all materials (including mining, transport and processing of materials), as well as all the infrastructure involved in that e.g. the machines used to mine the minerals, the factories that those machines are made in, the materials those factories are made from etc. I get that that is theoretically possible at an abstract level, so I’m asking you to explain how it would work in the work over the next period of time.
2. long haul aviation fuels replaced with biofuels. Where are they going to come from?
weka, it would take weeks to go through every single process, identify which energy input came from fossil fuels and show how it could change to electricity. The question you’ve asked is so general it’s like asking to prove a negative.
But as far as I know, every single step of making a wind turbine could be powered by electricity. For instance, steel-making uses coal both for heat, and to reduce the iron oxide. Coz coal is cheap. But it can be done entirely electrolytically.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/cleaner-cheaper-way-to-make-steel-uses-electricity/
Every mining dump truck, front-end loader that currently runs on diesel could run on electricity. Whether by batteries, overhead wires, or trailing cables. It’s just cheaper and more convenient to use fossil fuels. Oh, and those massive german coal mining machine that can scoop up the volume of an olympic swimming pool in a few minutes? Electrically powered.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagger_288
The crushers and mills for pulverising materials that go into concrete often are already electric. The heat needed for the calcination of cement is usually fossil now (coz it’s cheaper) but can easily be swapped to electricity.
There’s three bits. If you’ve got a specific process you don’t understand how to convert, ask and I’ll help you.
Biofuels – well plenty of agricultural production now goes to really dumb bio-ethanol. It wouldn’t be hard to get smarter about that to make aviation fuel.
I think you misunderstand me Andre. I accept that it’s possible technically. I’m saying that once you try and do it in the real world, it looks really different. This stuff was hashed out by the Peak Oil crowd a decade ago, and that included industry people and engineers etc.
weka, it would take weeks to go through every single process, identify which energy input came from fossil fuels and show how it could change to electricity. The question you’ve asked is so general it’s like asking to prove a negative.
It’s not a general question, it’s specific. People who claim that because it’s technically feasible it must be literally possible at the applied level are the ones talking in generalities. I’m asking you to break it down and show how that could happen given the various limitations of the known physical world. You don’t have to go into every little detail but if you can’t do a cradle to grave analysis please explain what makes you think it’s possible in reality.
Biofuels – well plenty of agricultural production now goes to really dumb bio-ethanol. It wouldn’t be hard to get smarter about that to make aviation fuel.
Likewise with this. It sounds reasonable right? But I’d like to see that broken down into some broad figures on how much fuel is needed per flight, and how much land is needed to grow that fuel, and then how many non-ff resources are needed to process/transport it etc. You’re talking theoretically, I’m asking for some evidence that it would work in practice.
You could do it just for NZ. For the sake of argument, take the number of international flights and cut it in half as our responsibility to grow and process the fuel for it. There will be an interesting calculation there along the lines of how many flights we do per year compared to how long it takes to grow and process each crop.
It works really easily in real time. As the price of fossil fuels go up relative to electricity, more and more processes become cheaper to do electrically than with fossil fuels.
When the price of oil went over $100/barrel I’m aware of several manufacturers went on quick conversion programmes to electric. Only one of which actually completed the conversion before the oil price went back down. The others abandoned their projects, and still run on fossil fuels now.
“It works really easily in real time. As the price of fossil fuels go up relative to electricity, more and more processes become cheaper to do electrically than with fossil fuels.”
That’s the theory, which has been demonstrated on a small scale. You are asserting that it can be done on the whole planet, but there’s nothing you’ve said that I find convincing.
When the price of oil went over $100/barrel I’m aware of several manufacturers went on quick conversion programmes to electric. Only one of which actually completed the conversion before the oil price went back down. The others abandoned their projects, and still run on fossil fuels now.
Right, but they still relied heavily and instrinsicly on ff-based tech. They had all that infrastructure, supply lines etc behind the conversion that was mined, manufactured and run on ff.
You’ve also now neatly highlighted the economic (and likewise political) realities, which I’m actually happy to leave out of the argument for now, because even with the best will in the world I’m not sure what you are suggesting is possible.
It can be done on the whole planet.
The problem is that you’re confusing the need for fossil fuels during the change over period as an ongoing need for fossil fuels for a high-tech economy.
Yes, we’ll continue using fossil fuels until the change over is done and then we won’t because they’re not needed.
The problem is that you’re confusing the need for fossil fuels during the change over period as an ongoing need for fossil fuels for a high-tech economy.
No, I’m not Draco, which you would know if you engaged in conversation instead of making assumptions and telling me I’m wrong. In this conversation I am talking about how to get from where we are now to fully renewables with the current population and standards of living. Neither you or Andre have done anything other than present some theory. Both of you are side stepping the pragmatics of how it could be done.
Long-haul aviation needs liquid fuels, which could be biofuels.
Theoretically could, yes.And you could argue back and forth on the logistics. But since we need to have zero emissions from energy, it ain’t an option (not beyond the very, very short term anyway). And that zero carbon necessity means that no bio-fuel can be used anywhere for energy purposes – probably including my much beloved wood burning stove
🙁
You want air travel there are two options I’m aware of.
1. Hydrogen fueled aircraft (the prototypes were built in the 80s by the Russians – they retrofitted ‘normal’ aircraft)
2. Dirigibles.
Graphene is still an option. Anything that can repurpose carbon is an option
Dunno what graphene is – never heard of it. Bottom line is that by around 2030 -2040, anything with carbon emissions is a ‘no go’ if we want even the slimmest chance of ducking 2 degrees.
Away to see what graphene is now….
A conductor, yes? So not an energy source.
“probably including my much beloved wood burning stove”
Maybe not (although we need to transition to high efficient burners),
while new plantations managed for timber and firewood have no net carbon dioxide emissions and actually take 0.17kg of CO2 out of the atmosphere for every kWhr of heat produced.
His comparisons initially are with coal-fired electricity and gas (wood is a no brainer), but he appears to be saying that irrespective of comparisons with other forms of energy for heating, firewood has negative emissions if managed properly. I’ve heard Holmgren say that firewood is the only sustainable energy source on the planet (I assume because of it’s ability to sequester more than it emits).
Ae. It’s nano material. It’s just one possible step in along process required to recycle carbon. The thing is. We’ll have to wait for a Thomas Edison, JP Morgan type relation ship to emerge.
Liquid fuels around 45MJ/kg, including tanks. Hydrogen best figure I’ve seen including tanks is 11 MJ/kg. Hydrogen and liquid fuel have about the same efficiency converting chemical energy into mechanical energy. The takeoff weight of a long haul aircraft going for maximum range is around 50% fuel. I just don’t see how that can possibly add up to hydrogen being viable for long haul aviation.
Let alone the other problems with hydrogen, ie where do you get it from and it’s an extremely difficult and dangerous fuel.
Graphene has potential as a next next generation high strength material. You may have heard of carbon nanotubes – they’re essentially sheets of graphene rolled up into a cylinder to make a single layer or multi-layer tube.
Carbon fibre is more or less lots of graphene mushed together to form a really long log (at the micro scale), with the number and type of defects in the structure determining the grade (strength and modulus) of the fibre.
We experienced the same problems with silicon 50 years ago. We solved all that by pumping money into it. We can do the same with graphene. So time isn’t so much an inhibitor
Not iffy at all. All we need fossil fuels for is energy and we can get that elsewhere.
All you do when you assert that we need fossil fuels for these things is prove your ignorance.
Another assertion Draco. It was an autocorrect, it was meant to be fify.
86.%of worlds energy use was supplied by oil,coal and gas (2006)…..while the theory of replacing the likes of earthmoving equipment et al with electric versions sounds feasible (small scale), to replace energy use without a reduction in production would require an almost 8 fold increase (at least) in electricity production and distribution worldwide……and in an impossibly short timeframe.
thanks Pat.
Now we’ve cleared that up. How do you tell some one there a horder
using words?
That fails to explain why we need fossil fuels for these things.
Yes, we’re presently using fossil fuels to supply energy but we don’t need to. This makes weka’s and your assertion that we need fossil fuels for both a high tech economy and renewables wrong.
@DTB….it explains it very clearly to anyone who grasps the concept of dense mobile energy (which oil, gas and coal are) …and the concept of time.
We dont need fossil fuels…..but we cannot produce and service the lifestyles we currently enjoy without them…at least not at scale.
Simple really.
No, it doesn’t explain it at all. It makes a really basic fucken mistake.
don’t be a dickhead….30 years to change over?right, have you any concept of what is involved in an 8 fold increase in electricity generation and distribution? (we won’t worry about any of the other challenges involved )…i suggest not.
there is one way you can hold on to your precious western lifestyle….reduce the worlds population by 86%(or so)
The Jeremy Kyle Show
I have a transcript of Jeremy Kyle’s recent appearance in New Zealand. Anyone interested in me posting it up?
not really.
Okay, that’s a yes. Keep your eyes peeled, fellas!
“These tests show that you’re a LIAR!”
Jeremy Kyle in New Zealand, Monday 9 January 2017
Part One of Two
We join the show near the end of the first segment. Host JEREMY KYLE stands centrestage, holding a large white envelope. To his right are seated HELEN CLARK and HEATHER SIMPSON, to his left sits the disgraced ex-Labour MP SHANE JONES. Hovering close by, ever vigilant, are two burly, black-clad security men….
JEREMY KYLE: All right, now just one more time, let’s get this quite clear: you say you did nothing in that hotel room except work on your Cabinet papers? [He turns to the audience and smirks disdainfully]
AUDIENCE: Ha ha ha!
SHANE JONES: Absolutely.
AUDIENCE: Ha ha ha ha ha!… BULLSH*T!…. He’s the Minister for Porn!…The only papers he was working through was tissue papers!…. Ha ha ha ha ha!
JEREMY KYLE: [waiting for the wave of catcalling and derisive laughter to subside] Well, let’s see what the lie detector tests say. …
[tears open envelope, scans contents, pauses several seconds for effect]….
JEREMY KYLE: These tests show that you’re a LIAR! You weren’t attending to cabinet papers in that hotel room, you were watching PORN!
SHANE JONES: Bugger the lie detector machines! They’re obviously faulty.
AUDIENCE: Ha ha ha ha ha! Not as faulty as the Labour Party candidate selection process!
JEREMY KYLE: These good citizens will be happy, I’m sure, to know that their hard-earned TAXES are going on rental copies of Debbie Does Dallas!
SHANE JONES: Piss off! It wasn’t Debbie Does Dallas, it was Vase de Noces.
….Awkward pause….
JEREMY KYLE: You disGUST me! Get off my show, NOW!
JONES skulks off, clutching the lie detector results slip…
WAGS FROM CROWD: He’s fit only for the ACT cult now!…. He’s got the situation FIRMLY in hand! …. Ha ha ha ha ha! …. Off to the National Party, Jones—that’s where all the wankers go!…. More huzzas, general hubbub, raucous laughter….
HELEN CLARK: [through gritted teeth] I knew it!
HEATHER SIMPSON: [bitterly, to Clark] I TOLD you you should NEVER have made that clown a cabinet minister in the FIRST place, for pity’s sake.
HELEN CLARK: [angrily rising from seat and advancing on SIMPSON] Don’t you DARE criticize my man-management! I ran a tight ship for NINE glorious years.
AUDIENCE: Fight, fight, fight!… Smash ‘er, Heather!
The security men step swiftly between SIMPSON and CLARK…
JEREMY KYLE: Now, now, settle down ladies. This is the Jeremy Kyle Show, not Jerry Springer! Maybe we’ll have you back on the show soon to discuss your legacy, Helen! For now, you go THAT way, and YOU—[pointing to SIMPSON]—go THAT way.
Exeunt CLARK and SIMPSON
JEREMY KYLE: And the best of luck to them. Coming up after the break: this man [close-up of SWORDFISH waiting nervously in green room] says that the people on New Zealand’s leading blog need to COOL IT during this election year and STOP all the SQUABBLING!
Cameras pan over nervous Standardistas waiting to make their entrance: marty mars, weka, Psycho Milt, Sasha and Morrissey.
To be continued…..
.
“Nervously” ???, Mozza, “Nervously” ??? … Never !!! I’ve always been a laid back sort of a Geeza, cool as a cucumber, me. I’d be sitting in the Green Room scheming up ways to subvert the programme by telling a few home truths that highlight Kyle’s remarkably ugly manipulative streak.
Looking forward to the next instalment.
By outrageous coincidence, my 16 year old Nephew (living in the UK) is a massive JEREMY KYLE fan (in common, no doubt, with most English 16 year old lads). His parents have spent a few years trying to wean him off the show (to no noticeable effect).
Shhh better not let this news get to the public, wonder if the Herald or Stuff will bother mentioning it. (The Herald had a link to the story, click on the link and it is a 404 page not found)
“Figures obtained by the Taxpayers’ Union under the Official Information Act show that to date Kiwi taxpayers have forked out $7.7 million to the Clinton Foundation’s “Health Access Initiative” with $2.5 million and $3 million earmarked for 2017 and 2018 respectively.”
This pisses me off no end, dodgy Clinton foundation and our government decides that taxpayers are giving millions of dollars to it.
What kind of dumb arse explanation will the outgoing government provide for this ‘donation’? Especially with all the scandal around the Clinton Foundation to start with. FFS.
Here’s an idea, how about using NZ tax payer money for NZer’s.
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1701/S00040/government-set-to-give-clinton-foundation-another-55m.htm
Maybe this explains things a little more clearly. Can’t say I take anything the Taxpayers Onion comes with seriously.
http://publicaddress.net/hardnews/taxpayers-union-still-stupid-cynical-and/
If I understand this correctly, you’re endorsing a National Party front organisation whose press release includes the line “…New Zealand’s faux pas in co-sponsoring the UN Security Council resolution condemning Israel on Christmas Eve…” and suggesting that the NZ government stop all foreign aid (“NZ tax payer money for NZer’s”). Is that really what you wanted to say?
Using information from =/= endorsing.
Sure. However, promoting bullshit from on Open Mike == endorsing.
…dodgy…
[citation needed]
Are you determined to make common cause with Breitbart?
Do some independent thinking, Cinny.
1) The Taxpayers Union is a front for ACT-ites.
2) Why do you assume that everything with the name “Clinton”on it is “dirty”? Who fed you that line? (Clue, he likes to blow his own trumpet.)
3) Are you seriously saying that NZ shouldn’t spend any money on foreign aid? Because, if you are, that’s a despicable attitude.
Check out the posting, links and comments on just put up:
Stop apologising for the corrupt Clintons.
That money should have gone into our own foreign relief aid efforts in the Pacific, not into an attempt to curry favour with the next Clinton Administration.
Stop making shit up.
That’s good advice. You should c.c. the Democratic Party’s desperate propagandists.
https://www.democracynow.org/2017/1/5/glenn_greenwald_on_dearth_of_evidence
I tried forwarding some helpful advice to democrat_propaganda_unit@wetdream.org, but got the autoreply “morrissey isn’t in right now, but when he gets close to planet earth he’ll get back to you with some barely-legible ranting”.
I find Morrissey both enlightening and entertaining.
I get neither from him.
He’s a delusional fool. But at least he doesn’t seem to be a damned liar like CV, so there’s that going for him, I guess.
He’s entertaining McFlock. He knows he’s exaggerating but that’s part of the fun… you take it into consideration. My Dad was the same. We knew to halve everything he said but he was also entertaining in the process.
LOL
I enjoy Morrisys transcripts …………..
When Stunned mullet or James post …………. Its like someone slipping a dick pic into the thread ….
Piss and wind being the usual contribution from them …..
2017 could be a tough year to be knob spam …….
Bill English can not carry out the walking ‘fake news’ con job that John Key was packaged up as …….
I think it’s also accurate to say Winston beat key …… again…………..
and if Keys Tax Haven/cheating laws are properly dismantled it will be 100% defeat …
I’m picking Keys legacy will embroil the all blacks into a scandal in the near future ….
Lowering their mana and support …
I haven’t seen that much use of ellipsis since the days of Phil Ure…..
The question that I always come up with is: Why do these countries need aid?
At no point should a country ever need aid or foreign investment. They have their own resources, their own people, and thus can create their own money to utilise those resources creating their own economy.
I suspect that the real problem that needs to be addressed is the colonisation of these countries by foreign bankers and capitalists.
Thankies RB for the link, much appreciated.
1. Doesn’t really matter to me whom the taxpayers union is aligned to, but that’s interesting that you say it’s a front for ACTites. Will def do some more reading/research.
2. Nope no one fed me that line. Gosh certainly not Agent Orange. I do take on board much info, but do like to come to my own conclusions, and am happy to change my mind if more info comes to light. Only a stubborn fool would be stuck in one mindset, or gather info from an echo chamber or limited sources/sites.
3. Foreign aid is fine by me, as long as it is used for those that need it. And with our country in so much debt, recovering from earthquakes, as well as making sure we have reserves to help any in the pacific islands should they have another disaster (because that is important IMHO), it makes me think that such a generous donation to that particular organisation is in bad taste.
Just thought I’d mention I’m a supporter of increasing our refugee quota.
I wonder what other ‘donations’ there are and to whom?
This appears to have only come to light via an OIA, so what else is happening that they would rather us not know about?
I mean if it was a great organisation, wouldn’t the government be proud to donate money to it? Wouldn’t the public feel proud to know they were helping people whom were suffering more than they are? So wouldn’t they be making it
a publicity press opportunity. And that’s a bit of a crux for me, it appears to be all a bit slim shady.
Been a primo day here, time for me to do some reading 😀
If it’s okay for the government to give public money that was earmarked for ‘Foreign Aid’ to the Clinton Foundation (a private concern), then presumably it’s okay to give that same money to other private concerns like (oh – I dunno) The Bill Gate’s Foundation, The George Soros Foundation, the Ford Foundation.. the White Helmets…
I’m no statist, but if we’re going to throw crumbs and bones from our banquet by way of foreign aid monies, I’d fully expect the public purse to fund orgs and programmes that had high degrees of public oversight…such as other government bodies. ..or to recognised aid agencies (eg Oxfam) for specific projects/programmes.
The donations were indeed for specific projects, the CHAI is a recognised agency, and it has admin costs probably better than anything the government does directly.
Seems all your boxes are ticked.
Robert Guyton and weka
This was interesting on radionz yesterday – have picked up item about different veges than usual from afficiando like Robert.
http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/summer-days/audio/201829571/seeking-unusual-vege-varieties
food environment
10 Jan 2017
Seeking unusual vege varieties
From Summer Days with Jesse Mulligan, 11:25 am on 10 January 2017
[link and quoting fixed – weka]
Thanks, greywarshark. Makes me think, if I move, I’ll move to a flat where I can have a garden. There’s a limit to what I can grow in a pot.
I do like leeks, courgettes and silverbeet – do grow the latter, have had difficulty growing leeks.
I like the potato onion suggestion.
thanks grey!
For future reference, can you please link to the RNZ page, not the audio? RNZ are not using permanent URLs for their audio, but instead audio IDs that link to a person’s history, so your link went to the last audio I listened to. If you link to the page instead (with the details of the content), then that will be a permanent link and the same for everyone. That page will also give the various options for listening e.g. stream or download, rather than just the stream which isn’t suitable for everyone. Cheers.
OK I’ll try weka but I can’t always get to a place where I can do what I want to do – get message that I can’t be transferred for some bloody reason. I am sick of it being so difficult. So sometimes if I can’t get the right thing I will just have to put what I can get. I have to limit my time on the computer, but like to pass interesting stuff on. But have to keep a kitchen timer beside me – so old-fashioned! And proud of it. I don’t want to be completely controlled by machines and web designers thinking up new ways to make me feel inadequate and out of touch. Bah,
Why RNZ couldn’t give all the previous options with a pretty format when they updated their site I don’t know. I think a lot of these programming types wouldn’t know their A from their E and simply work from the latest instruction book as to what is ‘best practice’ until the next disruption occurs! Strike it also on Trademe, where for no apparent customer advantage something will change and a useful option vanish.
Industry lobbyists DairyNZ, who lost their recent complaint against a truthful Greenpeace tv advert, get a right spanking from Rachel Stewart: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11779636
Jordy-boy Williams of Taxpayers Union fame is having a tantrum after discovering the NZ Govt. has donated 7.7 million dollars of “tax payers money” to the Clinton Foundation. This is a charitable organisation which apparently has been highly praised by philanthropy experts:
From Wikipedia:
But what is upsetting Jordy-boy most is the fact that Donny-boy Trump won’t like it one little bit and we mustn’t upset the orange fella. How dare the NZ govt. support a charity set up to provide humane assistance to the disadvantaged wherever and whoever they may be!
This is my paraphrasing of the Herald item because guess what: the highlighted online news clip has suddenly become “not available“.
Oh and in case the likes of CV and other Trump lovers interpret the above as evidence of Clinton adulation… I am a strong admirer of Bernie Sanders.
Separate discussion opened up: https://thestandard.org.nz/the-great-taxpayers-union-fraud-and-corruption-discovery
“The foundation “has won accolades from philanthropy experts and has drawn bipartisan support”.
Didn’t the Clinton foundation pay for Chelsea Clinton’s marriage?
Didn’t they pay for Chelsea Clinton’s gift tax on money her parents gave to her?
And the government is tossing in millions to it?
Who says so? The Trump? Or one of his totally corrupt mates? There’s plenty of em – everywhere.
Google is your friend. It can help you to not look like a credulous idiot.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2017/01/04/did-the-clinton-foundation-pay-for-chelseas-wedding/?utm_term=.2aa8135f2bed
The CIA associated WaPo? LOL!
For Barfly
Just seen an excellent example of what I’m taking about @ 9.3.3
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rod-emmerson/news/article.cfm?a_id=147&objectid=11779873
A heckler at a UK Brexit meeting told an economy professor that his GDP figures were not for her economy. And this article shows why she is correct.
If economists tout GDP as signs of a healthy strong economy, but many people around the country (whether UK or NZ) are not getting the benefits, then there’s something wrong with the way economists are measuring the strength of an economy:
Article by Aditya Chakrabortty
It’s all about how the statistics are used by economists…. or alternatively, they could just get out and about and see what the reality is for diverse people on the ground.
Oh boy. Popcorn time. Whether there’s anything to this, or it’s some elaborate hoax, either way it’s a grenade in the longdrop.
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/01/10/politics/donald-trump-intelligence-report-russia/index.html
As Glenn Greenwald tweeted, whatever the truth of the weakly verified reports from the US intelligence agencies, there’s now open warfare between the intelligence services and Trump.
Also Greenwald and others speculating that the CIA is retaliating to Trump being critical of the intelligence services.
I have no doubt that both the Russia and US intelligence services have sophisticated surveillance and black ops capabilities. I have no way of knowing exactly what is going on in this covert warfare.
He’s done.
Well, that’s an entertaining read. I’m keeping a truckload of salt handy, though. Pending reliable confirmation.
I gotta say, you always bring out the good stuff.
Ah well, nothing verifiable – but lots of peeing jokes on twitter like “tinkle, tailor, soldier, spy.”
A bit more discussion around the memos and rumours they’ve been floating around DC for months.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-russia-cnn-kompromat_us_58757682e4b03c8a02d3dbd7?zb8h2bw66gxzp8pvi
#PEEOTUS
#goldengate
Golden Shower jokes
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/golden-shower-twitter-real-life_us_5875a89be4b092a6cae3e190?yqfa1r20pyaqhncdi
this is like a spy novel, the sleeper awakened.
He’s really pissed off.
Well, considering the usual ratio of truth and lies from Trump, that denial increases my confidence the stuff’s legit.
This article from before the election hints at the controversy.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/10/veteran-spy-gave-fbi-info-alleging-russian-operation-cultivate-donald-trump
Poor old lefty liberals. Still fighting the last war.
Ten days to 16 years of Trump rule.
(Assuming the CIA don’t successfully use their regime change skills on their homeland.)
16 years ?…do tell…
It’s a wind up.
oh is trolling and starting flame wars OK now ?
Two terms of Donald, and then two terms from one of the kids, as Mrs Melania is foreign born and not eligible, though Donald could get that changed. There are five kids, so why not 48 years coming up Trumps? 🙂
Jesus mac1. Trying to give us ‘fellow’ oldies heart attacks are you? 😮
In other countries it’s called the monarchy and is A Good Thing. You know, Liz followed by Charlie, then Billy, then Teddie et Al (whoever Al is.)
Reported by ‘Mother Jones’ at the back end of October.
So why now? As in, why the sudden ramping up? Why not back then?
Haven’t read the links provided below yet about the US eating itself, but
Why now? That question alone will probably account for a few tubs of popcorn.
I’m rather confident that document is fake. I’m no Trump fan but the story on the report says something like it’s from a former Brit Spy – D I doesn’t say who he worked for but I guess MI6.
After looking over the docs, it’s nothing like any Intel Report I’ve even seen. And I’ve seen a written a few.
I don’t have time to pull it to bits, but will if enough people want it, but here’s my brief summary:
The document isn’t laid out anything like a Intel Report, or even a gist report. So the format is the main thing that leads me to believe it’s fake.
Now, what would this guy know I hear you ask… Well as our Intelligence services are based on MI6 MI6 and most other police or military. Our agencies follow very similar protocols and procedures… Including the way Intel reports, Gist reports etc are written. So NZ Intel reports are based in format / layout on the UK Intel Reports.
This doc looks nothing like a genuine Intel report written by a person who should know what one not only looks like, but how it should be formatted.
So, the format is just wrong, although it looks like they (the writers tried however) Them comes the content. It’s not written in a way that someone trained to write these reports would do. It’s shit, really. Like I said. I’m willing to go through it bit by bit and show you the mistakes, incorrect use of terms, lack of using real terms. Making comments wrapped in ()
So, I don’t think this is a silver bullet. It’s fake, obviously written by people who knew enough to put the content together, and leak it. I’m not going to answer who I think it is. But the way things are sharpening up, this won’t be the last one of these.
Again, if people want a full synopsis of the leaked report and why I think it’s fake, just ask and I’ll go through it bit by bit.
Rob Gilchrist
So if the 35 pages is just something made up by a fantasist, what are the intel agencies using as a basis for their announcement? Or have the intel agencies lost the plot so badly one will publicly announce more investigations into one candidate 10 days before the election (against protocol with apparently no reasonable evidence and very dubious legal grounds), then this, 10 days before the inauguration of the other one, (who was arguably assisted in victory by the previous dodgy announcement).
Popcorn. Lots of popcorn.
Good call by the union:
Attention Micky-savage ,back in the 1970s the late Bob Reece of Hamilton who you may remember told me that the LP had patented the silver fern badge . So if this is the case how is it that that the Nat’s
are often seen wearing what looks very much like our silver fern membership badge .?
It won’t be a patent. You can’t copyright physical items. A registered trademark then? But those lapse if granted and not used.
Will ask PP.
“Ngapuhi elder now backs PM’s Waitangi no show: ‘I wouldn’t go either'”
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11780428
Whoops: https://thestandard.org.nz/refining-that-dog-whistle/
“Bill English has used a proposal for timing of his Waitangi speech to wrongly claim that he is being silenced. And most of the media bought it.”
The media bought it?
They sold it, more like.
Sad day for National when their voters look to Kingi Taurua for support.
One can be fairly sure the Herald will be loving this.
Full of incendiary anti-Russian rhetoric and selective morality,
Hopey-Changey’s last hurrah is a model of hypocrisy and dishonesty.
Chicago, Tuesday 10 December (U.S. time)
I’ve just heard the man that Jim Mora calls “the greatest orator of our time” quoting Atticus Finch—the “walk a mile in someone’s shoes” quote from To Kill A Mockingbird. Incredibly, he doesn’t seem to realize that Atticus Finch could give Jeff Sessions a run for his money when it comes to bigotry. [1]
Hopey-Changey’s brain-dead cheer squad didn’t seem to mind, though. These zombies even cheered when he boasted about how he’s “halved our dependence on foreign oil”—forgetting that he’s presided over a stratospheric increase in fracking, and has been a stubborn advocate of expanding nuclear energy production.
He’s just spoken of “violent fanatics who claim to speak for Islam”, but said nothing about violent fanatics who claim to speak for Judaism, or Christianity. [2] Nor did he mention that for the last six years the United States has been supporting, in Syria, the most violent and fanatical of all the violent fanatics who claim to speak for Islam.
He’s also just praised the “effectiveness of our law enforcement agencies”, as though all those police executions of unarmed black children across the United States had never happened. The crowd, which no doubt is largely comprised of self-described “liberals”, cheered even louder after that lie.
[1] https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jul/11/atticus-finch-racist-go-set-watchman
[2] http://www.thepoliticalinsider.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/obama_netanyahu_2_.jpg
When did Jim Mora know anything?
It’s quite sad listening to his fawning to the establishment.
Morrissey, have a look at the reply I gave you about Atticus Finch over in the other line where you posted this comment. Better still, read To Kill a Mockingbird (which is not the same book as Go Set a Watchman – hint, they have different titles – and does not feature the same character as the one who’s discussed in your link – that’s about a different book – an early draft that was abandoned and never intended for publication).
Bill asked me to back up some opinions I had on this thread so I’ve done that. Here it is for the afternoon crowd.
OK Bill. There was no search button on the front page so I did some googling\
You’ve dismissed any suggestion that the positive reporting coming out of Aleppo might be biased.
You’ve mocked images of a wounded child and reporting from inside Aleppo which didn’t match your narrative.
You’ve shrugged and said “Everyone’s bombing residential neighbourhoods” to avoid people talking about Russain atrocities
You’ve denied that there’s civil war in Syria implying the only resistance to Assad is foreign fighters.
But I apologize. I should obviously have said “I have the IMPRESSION you are actively whitewashing the brutality of Assad’s regime and implying that anyone who thinks he’s a genocidal monter is uninformed and brainwashed.” I’ll be more careful in future.
“I have the IMPRESSION you are actively whitewashing the brutality of Assad’s regime and implying that anyone who thinks he’s a genocidal mon[s]ter is uninformed and brainwashed”
Thanks Wainwright. That turns out to have been a useful exercise. A nice little summary and I share your impression.
A nice little summary…
Wainwright’s attack on Bill is actually a nasty little smear. He could be trying for a job with the DNC.
…and I share your impression.
No you don’t. You know Bill does not support Assad, just like “Wainwright” knows it.
“No you don’t. You know Bill does not support”
IMO, you’ve just done something quite similar to what Wainwright was accused of which led to this summary – stating as a fact what what is actually your opinion about how I think.
I certainly do share Wainwright’s impression. I interpreted Bill’s comments in a similar way to Wainwright at the time they were made, and have not seen anything since that has changed my mind.
You are a liar.
[Relax MV has addressed the issue. No need for this – MS]
That’s harsh Morrissey… and wrong.
Sorry Miravox, I just fired it off without thinking. I know you’re not a liar. I was thoughtless and irresponsible to write it, and there’s no excuse.
While you’re there, Mickey, I’ve just had two messages for the “Obama’s last Speech” adulation thread bounced. I did not swear or engage in the sort of ad hom. nonsense that I unleashed on poor old Miravox.
So why am I being bounced? I presume you are not the one doing it.
[Nothing in the pending comments list. Will check – MS]
[Nothing in the pending comments list. Will check – MS]
Thanks Bill. This feels really sinister. I posed four serious questions to Sacha, asking her to defend her contention that old Hopey Changey had made an “inspiring” speech in Chicago.
Looks like either she’s not up to the challenge of responding or someone is stomping on our right to politely and intelligently dissent.
[there were 2 comments in the Trash, I’ve released them now. Nothing nefarious, it happens randomly, to many of us, including authors. You’ve been here long enough to know this Morrissey, so stop with the conspiracy stuff please – weka]
All my comments got put into pending because Bill didn’t like what I said. Do I get to imply there’s a dark conspiracy of Standard authors suppressing the truth too? 🙄
[all your comments got put into Pending because you accused an author of something they didn’t do. That’s premoderation and it’s one of the tools at a moderator’s disposal to make moderating easier and to teach commenters where the boundaries. Can you please reread the Policy, because it states clearly that it’s not ok to attack authors. Stop and think about it. If we moderated based on dislike, between the groups of us most comments would disappear. While we are all broadly on the left, there is a large range of views and opinions held by authors who moderate.
Sometimes people’s comments go into moderation randomly, but it’s amazing to me how many people assume something nefarious is going on despite it regularly being pointed out that this happens. I’m now putting you back in premoderation until I can see you’ve acknowledged this comment – weka]
Yes weka, I know. That was my point. Sometimes comments go into moderation. Morrisey’s the one trying to paint himself as the Edward Snowden of the Standard.
Did you see my point about your comments about Bill? He didn’t moderate you based on ‘like’. This is an important point.
I already apologised for it. I guess I’ll do it again. Bill moderated me for making a direct statement instead of making it clear I was stating an opinion that my impression is he obfuscates criticism of Assad’s regime. He also doesn’t “like” my opinion but has not moderated me for it. Message received.
[You still don’t get it, offer up half arsed ‘apologies’ and (I noticed way after the fact) took the opportunity to launch some smart arsed/half arsed attack on an Open Mike after someone else had prematurely released you from your first stint in pre-mod. Anyway…] – Bill
[I wasn’t asking you to apologise Wainwright, I wanted to know if you would acknowledge why you were moderated. It might not seem important to you, but there is a line around criticising moderators and you stepped over it. I thought you did well to back up why you said what you did originally but still apologise, I just wanted to be sure you understood where the line is. Suffice to say that moderator patience is wearing thin at the moment, so how about making our job easier? Out of premod now – weka]
Thanks very much, weka. I thought I was being a bit paranoid—and it turns out I was.
All good – apology accepted.
Never said Bill “supported” Assad.
The full transcript of Obama’s farewell speech:
http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-pol-obama-farewell-speech-transcript-20170110-story.html
I would love to hear any New Zealand politician make a set piece speech as good as this.
“As good as this?” What part did you like best?—The incendiary and hypocritical goading of Russia? The praising of U.S. “law enforcement” officers? The blather about “violent fanatics” that he has armed and diplomatically supported in Syria since 2011?
Your comment, analysis-free as it is, shows nothing more than cultural cringe and an alarming susceptibility to soaring bloviation.
I assume he meant in the gravitas and delivery. US politics has a certain pomp and dignity to it (most of the time).
Contrast to the Key/Cunliffe debate.
“Naaa, ya with Dotcom”
Of course. I forgot how dignified American politicians are….
http://people.com/politics/trump-denies-mocking-journalist-disability-watch-video/
The thing is, Morrissey, a lot of other people actually get the concept that a president or prime minister represents everybody in their country, that not all of those people share Morrissey’s opinions, and that the president/pm must nevertheless address his speeches to all of them. Perhaps if you write to him he’ll write you a speech that’s carefully tailored to your own opinions, but I wouldn’t get your hopes up.
Stop talking sense
Morrissey has a North Shore cliff with a favourite spot that he gets to declaim in the evening to all the fallen gods and prepare great idealistic worlds for himself to live in. If only his genius were understood.
…and that the president/pm must nevertheless address his speeches to all of them.
Imagine if instead of embarking on another anti-Russian rant like he did, and canting about “values” and heaping praise, without any discernible irony, on American “law enforcement”, Obama had actually DONE something meaningful, like dropping all charges against Edward Snowden, and releasing—immediately, with compensation—Chelsea Manning.
Morrissey you are the left’s worst misanthrope.
Why not just shut yourself down for election year and come back once there’s a result later in the year. Save yourself the grief.
Morrissey you are the left’s worst misanthrope.
A misanthrope is someone with a generalised loathing of humankind. I actually feel quite positive about most people, and am charitable towards most, including my opponents—the ones who aren’t unbearably hostile, that is. I do loathe nearly all politicians, however, and their servants, whether they are paid to tell lies in the diplomatic corps [1] or paid to tell lies in the de facto propaganda corps. [2]
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8sHzxILZMk
[2] http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article32557.htm
You should check yourself for soaring bloviation before you start accusing anyone else.
Lange was the most recent NZ politician to impress as an orator, since then no one has really stood out.
He was a better speaker than Obama.
Lange survived on a few bon mots and some native cunning.
He couldn’t hold a candle to a single Obama set piece.
I’m sure having a team of professional speech writers with plenty of time to spend on the speech helps.
Of course we know now if a noble peace prize winner says no more war, he’s wrong
You want to extrapolate Obama’s actions/words out to all Nobel Prize winners?
Prior to 2008 they where all correct. After that they where all dead wrong
Obama’s handlers presented him as a blank slate, in other words you can write what ever you like. There are a few slogans, hope/unity/change, now write down what ever you like in between. It does arouse enthusiasm and we can understand why. More than 80% of the population thinks America and the world are going the wrong way. For most people in the US in the last 40 years it’s been a hard hard battle you can’t underestimate. And it’s a rich country which isn’t like living in Southern Africa but real wages declined for 40 years. There’s growth but it’s being hoarded by very few pockets. Health care/Benefits/wages have declined, this isn’t the work of a Nobel peace prize winner, this is the work of a charlatan. There isn’t anything to show for it other than keeping subsidising private inefficiencies.
There is tremendous dissatisfaction with institutions and that’s generalised right across the world. There’s a lot of talk about labour low poll ratings but parliament poll ratings is lower. In fact all institutions are not trusted and disliked. There is a sense everything is going wrong. So when you say hope/unity/change and talk eloquently and so on. Herd it all a million times
Reasons to be glad that Hopey-Changey’s leaving
No. 1: No more of Samantha Power’s hypocritical cant.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/samantha-power-un-us-ambassador-america-syria-aleppo-massacres-srebrenica-rwandan-genocide-bizarre-a7476556.html
No 2. No more peace prizes given to a war mongering president.
No 3. No TPPA.
No 4 no more whining from Paul and Morrissey
Sorry, Red, that’s not going to stop.
Not whining – celebrating the end of the TPPA.
this one made me think of you Weka
https://theestablishment.co/im-a-disabled-woman-who-s-not-celebrating-meryl-streep-s-golden-globes-speech-8d67173122e7#.ygjx8h6ty
what did you think of the article xanthe?
I thought she put a very different viewpoint, that really made me see it differently, somehow nnon confrontational, i was moved somewhat.
Nice one Xanthe.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/10/trump-could-slash-civil-service-pay-to-1-armageddon-rule
the life of an American public servant would appear to be an unhappy one as of 1/21/2017
more stirling work by Gordon Campbell….
http://gordoncampbell.scoop.co.nz/2017/01/11/gordon-campbell-on-why-tax-cuts-in-2017-would-be-a-bad-idea/#more-4727
‘Keep Kansas in mind this year when our politicians begin to try to sell the notion that tax cuts are a responsible form of economic management. They’re not. They’re a bag of sweets, a bribe to win your vote. Beyond the sugar hit, they’ll do nothing to fix the problems facing the country, and will also do nothing to make this country safer or more prosperous for your kids.”
good advice ……we don’t need any more type2 diabetes.