Open mike 12/07/2022

119 comments on “Open mike 12/07/2022 ”

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1. PsyclingLeft.Always 1

   12 July 2022 at 7:26 am

   New climate change polling shows people are becoming less tolerant of those who build in harm's way, with the overwhelming majority expecting extreme flooding to increase.

   It was also when shocking new data came out showing the sea level is rising twice as fast as previously thought in some parts of Aotearoa, making once-in-a century floods likely in some places every year in just 18 years.

   Victoria University climate scientist Professor James Renwick said there was "a lot of confusion, and a need for education and clear messages about actions we can all take".

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/470749/climate-change-poll-tolerance-dropping-for-those-who-build-in-harm-s-way

   National's Climate Spokesperson Scott Simpson said it was a conversation New Zealand needed to be having, and it was better having it late than not at all.

   Buller mayor Jamie Cleine said the region was already seeing the effects of climate change, and the approach to mitigating those needed to be multi-pronged.

   "We've seen multiple serious floods now, tidal surge inundations, and two ex-tropical cyclone wind events all within the last, say, 10 years, so it's quite clear that the climate is changing and the intensity of the events is getting greater.

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/466007/councils-property-owners-must-share-costs-of-climate-shaw-warns

   Nats Scott Simpson……the unaware Irony.! How many years….have critical thinkers…been trying to red flag this? Were his Nats EVER interested ? Mind boggling.
   • PsyclingLeft.Always 1.1

     12 July 2022 at 7:33 am

     Birchfield was elected chairman of the West Coast Regional Council in 2019, after six terms as a councillor.

     Birchfield denies human-caused climate change and sea-level rise, calling it "a gigantic fraud" and "the biggest rort in the history of human civilisation".He refused to accept a report to the regional council about future hazards to the region from sea-level rise, calling it "bullshit".When Kiwibank announced it would no longer do business with the fossil fuel industry, he accused them of "trying to destroy the economy."

     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Birchfield

     Birchfield and his like….somehow retain a following. Of similar dinosaurs. Reminds of a King Cnut.!
     Or similar : ) ….

     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cnut#The_story_of_Cnut_and_the_waves
     • Sanctuary 1.1.1

       12 July 2022 at 8:29 am

       He won't be happy until Westport is washed into the Tasman sea and it's former site a low lying lagoon, at which point he'll write a column for the Daily Blog blaming "wokism".
       • PsyclingLeft.Always 1.1.1.1

         12 July 2022 at 8:34 am

         Well…that was a lol. : ) And maybe some gold be washed to the top ? A cunning plan !
   • Jenny how to get there 1.2

     12 July 2022 at 1:10 pm

     Power and roading infrastructure in the South Island takes a serious hit. Those sitting trapped in the dark can be sure, (though it may take a few days in some cases), that they will reconnected to the grid and the roads will be cleared.

     As weather extremes get worse and closer together that certainty will disappear. As more and more of us get to sit in cold dark homes, for longer periods, cut off from our neighbours by floods and slips. and power outages.

     There must come a realisation that there will be a time where the hits to power and roading infrastructure cannot be rebuilt.

     When we reach that point, will BAU still continue?
     Will we still allow our transportation system to be dominated by fossil fueled vehicles?
     Will we still allow valuable crop lands to be ploughed under for intensive dairying conversions?
     Will still be mining and importing coal?
     Will Huntly coal fired power station still be operating?

     When that time comes, will we try to mend our ways?

     When that time comes, will it be far too late to make any difference what we do, will we find that the changes to the climate will be irreversible?

     What then?
2. dv 2

   12 July 2022 at 8:05 am

   Re Sri Lanka

   First thing done by the 'current ' admin a couple of years ago was

   CUT TAXES

   Sound familiar.
3. Sanctuary 3

   12 July 2022 at 8:12 am

   You know, if this was the Soviet Union you'd almost suspect the usually sycophantic media had got the memo that the Politburo thinks comrade Fosters inability to consistently hit his tractor production quotas is now a problem…
4. PsyclingLeft.Always 4

   12 July 2022 at 8:25 am

   He refused to say what mask rules he would introduce however, only that he would listen to the experts. It was put to him that New Zealand could not move on from the virus while case numbers were rising.

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/470745/rest-of-the-world-has-moved-on-from-covid-19-christoper-luxon-says

   Health problems accumulated as you grew older and there were many seniors with compromised immune systems who were worried they would be affected badly by the virus.

   https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/mask-us-grey-power

   Indeed, there is increasing concern that with the likely more transmissible BA.5 variant on the rise and the surge in the number of daily cases reported last week, we are at the start of the second Omicron wave which could have a big impact on the over-60s.

   https://www.odt.co.nz/opinion/editorial/not-time-being-over-covid

   Clustopher Luxon…saying how he thinks…well…maybe.
   • PsyclingLeft.Always 4.1

     12 July 2022 at 8:31 am

     Masks work and we need to think about how best to use this vital public health protection and how to ensure that mask policies are working well for everyone."

     https://www.newsroom.co.nz/dont-scrap-mask-rules-experts-urge

     Experts…..
   • Leighton 4.2

     12 July 2022 at 2:00 pm

     Has any NZ politician ever been given such a big platform to say nothing at all so as to remain as politically beige as possible? First he says he won't criminalize abortions despite the fact he also considers them to be murder, and now the guy can't even take a position that masks are useful protection against airborne viruses.
     • AB 4.2.1

       12 July 2022 at 3:28 pm

       Luxon and the previous three Nat leaders have called for looser restrictions at every stage. They have now made tighter restrictions politically impossible and there is only one possible direction of travel – stay the same or loosen further. They have what they wanted all along, and as the consequences of that become clear, only the most brazen of liars and opportunists among them will reverse course and call for a tightening.
     • PsyclingLeft.Always 4.2.2

       13 July 2022 at 7:30 am

       Yep. Clustopher (tip o' the hat..Blazer ! ) Luxon could be quite a dangerous man. Doesnt "quite" say….where he really is on these and other vitals.

       That, and the rest of these Nact types…has indeed focused me. On doing my best to make sure they never get power in NZ.

       Hence. Colours. Nailed. : )
   • Leighton 4.3

     12 July 2022 at 3:32 pm

     Also "not giving a shit" is different from "moving on". 300 people still dying from Covid daily in the UK (almost 50% worse than NZ's 17 average deathsper day on a per capita basis) in addition to the 182,000 who have already died. If Luxon thinks that's the model to follow then that says more about him than it does about the current government.
5. Belladonna 5

   12 July 2022 at 9:37 am

   Now this is a global supply chain shortage issue which I can live with!

   RTDs are one of the entry points into alcohol abuse (sweet mixers hiding the taste of alcohol) – having them off the shelves (because of a shortage of bourbon) seems to be a win for health.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/129239817/global-bourbon-shortage-creates-lack-of-supply-of-cheap-rtds
   • weka 5.1

     12 July 2022 at 10:05 am

     excellent.

     The fertiliser shortages might finally push us towards getting off that shit as well and into regenag.
     • Populuxe1 5.1.1

       12 July 2022 at 4:47 pm

       You mean like Sri Lanka?
       • weka 5.1.1.1

         13 July 2022 at 12:06 pm

         yes, exactly. A wealthy industrialised country like NZ should totally take the opportunity of lowering art fert supplies and turn it into an umitigated disaster that collapses the economy.

         🙄

         What do you think will happen to NZ if we blithely try to keep BAU and art fert supplies don't recover? At the same time as we have crop failures globally and locally from increased frequency, climate induced, extreme weather events. Writing is on the wall for those that are paying attention. We have a window in which to transition well and by choice, before that choice is taken from us.
         • Populuxe1 5.1.1.1.1

           13 July 2022 at 5:12 pm

           There is no evidence that fertiliser supplies won't recover when supply chains open up again and we do, in fact, produce our own at Kāpuni and Ravensdown among other places.
           You do have this tendency to make sweeping statements about agriculture and power generation without demonstrating much understanding the technical or geographical practicalities.
   • Patricia Bremner 5.2

     12 July 2022 at 2:55 pm

     Agree Belladonna. They are addictive with all the sugar and alcohol.
6. DavidJ 6

   12 July 2022 at 9:49 am

   RIP Monty Norman

   Monty Norman, composer of iconic James Bond theme, dies at 94 (msn.com)

   And from that great philosopher himself:

   "Governments change. The lies stay the same."

   -James Bond, 'GoldenEye'.
7. ianmac 7

   12 July 2022 at 11:13 am

   This is pretty compelling stuff Nicky. Especially the part about lobby groups fighting change:

   The thing I want to emphasise with climate and environment is that the main problem stopping change is not a lack of facts about the issues. The main thing stopping change is the continuous organised obstruction, delay and watering down of environment policy by well funded industry lobby groups. It is the fake community groups – Mothers for More Motorways-type groups – the paid spokespeople and publicity campaigns, the funding of biased experts, the full-time lobbyists, the corporate election donations, the law firms threatening to sue governments for introducing needed regulations and the rest of the mercenaries who help companies fight desperately needed change…..

   https://www.newsroom.co.nz/nicky-hager-being-investigative-journalists-in-times-of-trouble

   Being investigative journalists in times of trouble
   By Nicky Hager

   New Zealand author Nicky Hager was keynote speaker at Dataharvest, the European Investigative Journalism Conference, and highlighted the big issues needing urgent and lasting media attention.
   • Rosemary McDonald 7.1

     12 July 2022 at 12:11 pm

     I have admired and supported Hager's work for years, but like others on the Old Left have been disappointed to see him join (seemingly unquestioningly) the Team of Mainstream Media Personalities Standing Against (what we have reliably been informed is ) The Far Right.

     …a US-inspired protest against covid policies that was used as movement building for the far right.

     The protest was in February this year, when New Zealand anti-vaccine groups staged an action imitating the Canadian “freedom convoy” truck protest. Hundreds of people took over the Parliament sector of the city for four weeks, with effigies of people in nooses and being guillotined, and slogans about executing the Prime Minister. It had an ugly ending with protesters pelting the police with rocks and setting their tents on fire.

     The most chilling part was the social media statistics. They revealed that more people were getting news about the parliament protest from right-wing and conspiracy social media than from all the mainstream news media combined.

     (my bold)

     It's concerning that Hager refers to the US as inspiring the Freedom Village protest, then also refers to the Canadian Trucker protest. Which is it? Or has Hager blindly accepted the line that the Canadian Truckers were also inspired and funded by 'US Far Right White Supremacist Misogynist whatevers…' ?

     As yet I have seen no actual evidence, no paper trail (for which Hager is rightfully respected) to support these claims.

     It was not "hundreds" of protestors in Wellington, it was thousands. But what is an order of magnitude or two between professional investigative journos?

     I did not see the "effigies of people being guillotined" in the Wellington protest…I'd be grateful if someone could provide a photo or two to verify this…perhaps Hager is a tad confused and is remembering the 2012 Anti Asset Sales protest?

     And no, Hager…the Wellington protest was overwhelmingly peaceful until the heavily armed and armoured police squad moved in with their super pepper spray and crowd control tech and provoked a riot. The rock throwing and the burning only began after the cops began their purge of what a sitting MP desribed as a "river of filth".

     An honest investigative journalist would have also shown pictures of the unprovoked police brutality of the 10th of February, and how the riot cops on the 2nd March forced peaceful protestors from their tents and the common cops moved in behind to destroy and lay waste what had been carefully and lovingly built over the previous three plus weeks.

     An honest investigative journalist would have shared with us his interviews with the Freedom Villagers, and how he realised that far from being generic "anti-vaxxers", many of them had willingly taken the Pfizer Product and been seriously negatively impacted.

     An honest journalist would have noted that it was the total denial by the Ministry of Health, the Government and the "mainstream news" of these injuries that drove many to Wellington. And a professional investigative journalist would have commented that how it is totally bizarre the insistence that those who suffered heart injuries from the first or second shot (or anaphylaxis) had to have a second or third shot in order to keep their jobs.

     Or perhaps, a good investigative journalist would have gone out there into the world and found out why so many of us have turned away years ago from the "mainstream news" providers (that he clearly believes should be our only source of truth) and prefer to find our own sources of information such as established scientific journals and Covid data sites.

     Such a pity there are so few investigative journalists with the integrity to step outside the mainstream and actually speak kanohi ki te kanohi with those they seem happy to accuse.
     • Jenny how to get there 7.1.1

       12 July 2022 at 1:44 pm

       "An honest journalist would have noted that it was the total denial by the Ministry of Health, the Government and the "mainstream news"…" Rosemary McDonald

       Are you inferring Rosemary, that Nikki Hagar is not an honest journalist?

       The supporters of Russia's war against Ukraine, also spread the same smear against our journalists, that they are all corrupt hacks toeing the Western MSM line.
     • Jenny how to get there 7.1.2

       12 July 2022 at 1:52 pm

       …has Hager blindly accepted the line that the Canadian Truckers were also inspired and funded by 'US Far Right White Supremacist Misogynist whatevers… Rosemary McDonald

       No, but my fear is that you have.

       Nazi Hippies: When the New Age and Far Right Overlap

       Both the New Age and the far right are drawn to conspiracy theories

       https://gen.medium.com/nazi-hippies-when-the-new-age-and-far-right-overlap-d1a6ddcd7be4

       https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00131857.2022.2061948
     • Incognito 7.1.3

       12 July 2022 at 9:33 pm

       Denial much?
8. Poission 8

   12 July 2022 at 11:34 am

   Europe reaches equality,

   Euro/us$ parity,The Euro has now depreciated 14% TY and imported energy costs have increased by both demand inflation,and currency depreciation.

   Lagarde and the ECB showing the risks with continued QE when inflation shock was not only a war levy.

   https://twitter.com/RobinBrooksIIF/status/1546598034104098822?cxt=HHwWjIC9kfitz_YqAAAA
9. aj 9

   12 July 2022 at 12:53 pm

   Health Minister responds to doctors' claim 'catastrophic collapse' coming.

   Health Minister Andrew Little spoke to Morning Report.

   Corin Dann doesn't understand what Little says and keeps insisting it's a 'crisis'. Little describes the situation using words similar too, or meaning virtually the same, but Dann won't be happy until the word crisis is used.

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018849118/health-minister-responds-to-doctors-claim-catastrophic-collapse-coming
   • rod 9.1

     12 July 2022 at 4:46 pm

     Corin Dann is just another right wing poodle imho
10. Temp ORary 10

    12 July 2022 at 1:47 pm

    This is starting up again; though probably too late now for this year's local body elections, and likely next year's general election too:

    A youth-led campaign to lower the voting age to 16 is being heard in the Supreme Court today.

    Make it 16 will have its case heard at the Supreme Court after failing in the group's efforts in the High Court and Court of Appeal in 2020 and last year…

    Attorney General David Parker's position is that the earlier High Court decision was correct for declining the declaration Make it 16 seeks.

    He said section 12 of the NZ Bill of Rights Act, which provides that every New Zealand citizen over the age of 18 can vote in parliamentary elections, settles any limitation in respect of the voting age.

    https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/voting-age-appeal-be-heard-supreme-court-today

    However, that does rather ignore the Court of Appeal's statement from last year:

    the Court of Appeal judgement found the Attorney-General had failed to “discharge the burden of proof” to justify the existing age limit.

    Looking at the justification of limiting the rights of 16 and 17 year olds was required, the judgement found.

    “The matter is intensely and quintessentially political involving the democratic process itself,” the judgement said.

    “Further the matter is very much in the public arena already including being part of a recently announced review of electoral law. We choose to exercise restraint and decline the application for declarations.”

    In a new judgement of the court, released on the Supreme Court's website on Wednesday, along with the granting of leave of appeal, it said "the approved question is whether the Court of Appeal was correct to dismiss the appeal".

    https://www.1news.co.nz/2022/04/13/fight-to-lower-voting-age-to-16-will-head-to-supreme-court/

    The AG taking refuge in section 12 of the BORA also seems to contradict Section 21 (1) (i) of the Human Rights Act:

    For the purposes of this Act, the prohibited grounds of discrimination are…

    (i) age, which means… any different treatment based on age that occurs on or after 1 February 1999, any age commencing with the age of 16 years

    https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1993/0082/latest/DLM304475.html

    The more relevant part of the BORA would seem to be Section (4), which is why Make It 16 are going for a declaration of inconsistency rather than a nullification. Though it seems more likely that it'll be kicked back down to the Court of Appeal given the wording of the Supreme Court's approved question. Everyone appears to recognize the inconsistency, but no one seems to want to do anything about it:

    No court shall, in relation to any enactment (whether passed or made before or after the commencement of this Bill of Rights),—

    (a) hold any provision of the enactment to be impliedly repealed or revoked, or to be in any way invalid or ineffective; or

    (b) decline to apply any provision of the enactment—

    by reason only that the provision is inconsistent with any provision of this Bill of Rights.

    https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1990/0109/latest/whole.html
11. Puckish Rogue 11

    12 July 2022 at 2:22 pm

    This is fantastic:

    https://fortune.com/2022/07/11/elon-musk-twitter-meme-mocks-bots-court-delaware-showdown/

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FXW4J4xXgAAXFKs?format=jpg&name=small

    He'll either buy it at a cheaper price (probably won't use any of his own money to do it) or it'll be revealed just how over priced twitter is and the shareholders will be asking questions of the veracity of the boards statements

    Win-win all round

    https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/TWTR/
    • Barfly 11.1

      12 July 2022 at 3:40 pm

      The old "don't talk about the bots let them pad the numbers trick" goes boom
      • Puckish Rogue 11.1.1

        12 July 2022 at 3:45 pm

        Something about chickens and roosts springs to mind
12. Puckish Rogue 12

    12 July 2022 at 2:27 pm

    Let them work:

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/129197272/plea-by-unvaccinated-nurses-to-return-to-work#comments
    • KJT 12.1

      12 July 2022 at 3:01 pm

      Why would you want medical staff who don't comprehend, or refuse to follow, medical science, to be responsible for your health?

      Apart from the added risk to patients that have immune issues.
      • Puckish Rogue 12.1.1

        12 July 2022 at 3:07 pm

        There are valid reasons why someone doesn't want/need/require all the shots and boosters and I'd rather have an unvaccinated or unboosted nurse looking after me than no nurse at all or nurses that are so burnt out that they might make mistakes

        https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/nursing-shortage-nurses-broken-while-sector-faces-thousands-of-vacancies/L7NUXOPG4AB472OKXOH5QJSUMU/

        Time for Ardern to support the nurses

        https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/07/pm-jacinda-ardern-suggests-migrant-nurses-put-off-by-needing-to-stay-in-role-for-two-years-perhaps-don-t-want-to-be-a-nurse-in-nz.html
        • KJT 12.1.1.1

          12 July 2022 at 3:23 pm

          You may want to have a fool responsible for your medical treatment. I don't!

          Adern is correct.

          Why bring in Nurses to help with the shortages, that don’t work as nurses for a couple of years. No point.
          • Puckish Rogue 12.1.1.1.1

            12 July 2022 at 3:48 pm

            If this keeps up then you won't have either!

            'Why bring in Nurses to help with the shortages, that don’t work as nurses for a couple of years. No point.'

            A couple of years is better than no years or at all because, unless you've failed to notice, we're in a crisis

            Maybe the nurses could claim to be DJs instead then they'd have no problems getting in
            • KJT 12.1.1.1.1.1

              12 July 2022 at 4:11 pm

              "No years at all" is the point.

              If they won't even commit to two years, what is the point of bringing them in.
              • Puckish Rogue …

                12 July 2022 at 4:36 pm

                So why only nurses then, why not do the same for GPs

                (Apart from sexism of course)
                • weka …

                  12 July 2022 at 6:45 pm

                  Apparently because nurses not staying in nursing once they get residency is an issue, but GPs don't do that enough for it to be a problem. My guess is they looked at some data from a Ministry and made the decision based on advice based on what's happening the real world. It's stupid politics given everything else that is going on, but is it a bad policy?
                  • weka …

                    12 July 2022 at 6:47 pm

                    I mean, if you were a nurse in the UK, burnt out, hating living there, and you got the opportunity to immigrate to NZ and quit nursing and go work in a less stressful job, what's not to love?
                  • Puckish Rogue …

                    12 July 2022 at 7:04 pm

                    So lets throw some figures around (the numbers don't matter so much as the gist of it)

                    Lets say100 nurses come in and 10% of nurses don't hang around so 10 nurses leave early meaning 90 nurses stay

                    Is it better to make it less desirable for nurses to work here in the hopes that those who do stay longer or is it better to make it easier and more desirable for nurses to come here

                    For example 150 nurses arrive, 20% leave early (just a figure I plucked since Ardern wouldn't tell us) but that still leaves 120 nurses

                    If nurses are in hot demand globally and we can't match other countries wages then surely it makes sense to do whatever else we can to attract nurses here?
                    • weka …

                      12 July 2022 at 8:54 pm

                      I'd guess that 10% is quite a large shortfall for the health planners.

                      I thought the issue wasn't that nurses leaving NZ, but getting residency and not staying in nursing.

                      I also think NZ is a reasonably attractive place to try and get residency. I'm in favour of bonding and think we should use it more.
            • Muttonbird 12.1.1.1.1.2

              12 July 2022 at 5:51 pm

              You ripped that joke off Farrar. What's the deal with RWNJs stealing other people's material?!
              • Puckish Rogue …

                12 July 2022 at 6:10 pm

                I'm surprised you actually recognize a joke
                • weka …

                  12 July 2022 at 6:48 pm

                  shall we take bets on who gets banned next if you two start having another go?
                  • Puckish Rogue …

                    12 July 2022 at 7:05 pm

                    
                  • Muttonbird …

                    12 July 2022 at 8:16 pm

                    I'm pretty hot on this for three reasons:

                    1. The National Party used a recognisable part of a popular song by Eminem without the creator's permission to further their own political ambitions. They thought they could get away with it because it was "pretty legal". Got into big trouble and they have form.
                    2. One time I worked hard to create visual content for a project only to have it appropriated and used thereafter as their own by a certain taxpayer funded organisation beginning with T and ending in NZ. Still unhappy about it.
                    3. The future National government's coalition partner, ACT, does not respect culture in any form. While Baldrick (Chris Luxon) speaks of trading NZ to the world, Rimmer (David Seymour) is determined to halt our film and TV trade with the world. Fireworks to come.

                    Puckish Rogue continues a long line of chancers abusing other's content for their own means.

                    I guess some people create, and some incarcerate!
                    • weka …

                      12 July 2022 at 8:56 pm

                      you could have riffed that of PR's casual, throw away joke, but instead you made it personal. Remember how mods don't like having their time wasted, and how flaming tends to irritate them?
                    • Muttonbird …

                      12 July 2022 at 9:28 pm

                      I wanted to point out that PR had used someone else's specific joke written on another forum without attribution. Despite your assertion, it was not PR’s joke at all.

                      Here’s the quote:

                      All the nurses who want to come and live and work in New Zealand should simply declare they are really DJs, who just do nursing as a side gig.

                      – David Farrar

                      and link:

                      https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2022/07/pm_says_migrant_nurses_may_not_want_to_be_nurses.html

                      The second comment explained why I took that position.

                      How is that wasting moderator's time?

                      [what you appear to be missing is that I was giving both you and PR a headsup to not start in on each other. Now I will make my point in BOLD.

                      Had you made the point you did in your last comment (your view, quote, link) there would have been no problem. The comment explains really clearly what you are on about and thus everyone reading and wanting to take part knows. Your FB-esque original comment looked like taking a pot shot at PR and it wasn’t possible to know what you were on about.

                      The wasting mod time is that here you are yet again arguing about moderation, something you have a history of. You could have asked early on where the boundaries are, but instead you expect me as a mod to do the extra mahi and explain ad nauseum.

                      It’s actually really simple: use your words to explain the political point you are making, do this at the start. Avoid taking pot shots at commenters. Stop arguing with the mods – weka]
                    • weka …

                      13 July 2022 at 10:44 am

                      mod note.
            • Incognito 12.1.1.1.1.3

              12 July 2022 at 9:43 pm

              Are DJs on the Green List and do they have to DJ for 2 years here before they can apply for Residency? And after that they can go into property development?
          • Anker 12.1.1.1.2

            12 July 2022 at 4:42 pm

            "you may want a fool responsible for your medical treatment, I don't"

            I just want someone who is trained and competent to carry out whatever medical procedure I need. I know if I go into a hospital or medical practice right now, there is a big chance I will get covid from either other patients or medical staff (vacinated or unvacinated).

            Do you not relize that the health system is on the brink of collapse? Everyday there are articles in Stuff about Drs and nurses on the brink. We are 4000 nurse down. If these nurses/drs were unvacinated and we had a war zone with sick people dying would you say I don't want these fools looking after these people?
            • Puckish Rogue 12.1.1.1.2.1

              12 July 2022 at 4:47 pm

              'If these nurses/drs were unvacinated and we had a war zone with sick people dying would you say I don't want these fools looking after these people?'

              This right here is what its all about
              • Populuxe1 …

                12 July 2022 at 4:52 pm

                If this was a war zone, all field medics would have had mandatory vaccinations by command order, so really not the best analogy. You really don't want infection roaring unchecked through territory with no sanitation or infrastructure.
                • Puckish Rogue …

                  12 July 2022 at 5:04 pm

                  Not if they were hard up for medical personal
                  • KJT …

                    12 July 2022 at 5:10 pm

                    They would be drafted, and fully vaccinated when they were kitted out.
                    • Puckish Rogue …

                      12 July 2022 at 5:14 pm

                      Ever heard of conscientious objectors?
                    • KJT …

                      12 July 2022 at 5:37 pm

                      Conchies that refused to join the medical corps, Merchant Navy or other options were put in jail. Where many were treated worse by the guards, than actual criminals.

                      10 March 2016, Families of NZ conscientious objectors sought to share and preserve stories, News, University of Otago, New Zealand

                      Refusing to shoot people for moral reasons, and taking the consequences, is a commendable moral choice. Refusing to take sensible precautions to protect the health of your patients……. Is something that most of the conchies wouldn’t have agreed with.
                    • mauī …

                      12 July 2022 at 11:14 pm

                      One would have to question the General that as casualties stack up, keeps 700 nurses in a POW camp at home, because there was a question mark over the last item of their medical.
                  • Populuxe1 …

                    12 July 2022 at 5:23 pm

                    Conscientious objectors don't get sent to front lines
            • Populuxe1 12.1.1.1.2.2

              12 July 2022 at 4:53 pm

              Why would you go to a hospital if you don't believe what the doctors and scientists tell you?
              • Puckish Rogue …

                12 July 2022 at 5:06 pm

                Some doctors think boys can become girls.

                Its not a accept everything or accept nothing situation.
                • Populuxe1 …

                  12 July 2022 at 5:25 pm

                  It's impossible to take seriously anyone who insists on dragging any argument back to a single and not really equivalent issue.
                  • Puckish Rogue …

                    12 July 2022 at 5:36 pm

                    Seriously?

                    Sure then because I think the risk of covid has been massively overblown and I support those that don't want to/have objections to/are unable to have the injections I should also not go to the hospital if I break an arm or something, because its equivalent

                    Labours on the wrong side of this, deal with it
                    • KJT …

                      12 July 2022 at 5:43 pm

                      The statistics from countries that didn't have as comprehensive a covid response as ours, prove that anyone who claims " risk of covid has been massively overblown" is divorced from reality.
                    • Populuxe1 …

                      12 July 2022 at 5:49 pm

                      Well you're on the wrong side of the science and evidence, so you deal with it
                    • Puckish Rogue …

                      12 July 2022 at 5:55 pm

                      https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

                      How many of those deaths were actually caused by covid?

                      So yeah overblown.

                      But it made incredible profits for Big Pharma, the MSM had everyone glued to the screens (if it bleeds it leads) and it got Labour an overwhelming victory in the election
                    • KJT …

                      12 July 2022 at 7:48 pm

                      Yeah right. All those people I know overseas whose family and friends died of covid, are just being "overblown".
                    • Incognito …

                      12 July 2022 at 9:39 pm

                      Nope, not overblown, but severely underestimated.

                      https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid
                  • Anker …

                    12 July 2022 at 7:25 pm

                    I think the arguement is relevant. It is about people who deny science, i.e. that its not posible to change your sex and that the evidence for puberty blockers is experimental at best.
            • KJT 12.1.1.1.2.3

              12 July 2022 at 5:08 pm

              All these people talking about a shortage of medical staff, a "crises" as if it has suddenly happened.

              The shortage of GP' s, Nurses and other staff has been apparent for years.

              Our local medical centre hasn't been fully staffed for over a decade.
              • DavidJ …

                12 July 2022 at 5:40 pm

                "The shortage of GP' s, Nurses and other staff has been apparent for years."

                Yes, of course, but the scale has changed significantly.

                For example, according to the NZNO in 2012 the ADHB was short about 120 nurses. "NZNO organiser Craig Muir says, “These shortages are shocking."" In March 2022, the ADHB was short by 428 nurses.

                I acknowledge these are two different sources, but if the data comparison is valid, that's a big change over the 10 years.
                • KJT …

                  12 July 2022 at 5:52 pm

                  Getting steadily worse over decades is hardly a sudden crisis.

                  In fact most of us were predicting it, for our proffesions for decades.

                  My own trades/Proffesions have an over thirty year training gap, since it was decided that bringing in already trained "skilled migrants" was cheaper than training our own kids.

                  I admit to a degree of shadenfraude, as those who cheer leaded the whole "reforms" and profited by the whole shemozzle, get bitten on the arse, as we predicted, so long ago.
                  • DavidJ …

                    12 July 2022 at 6:07 pm

                    "Getting steadily worse over decades is hardly a sudden crisis."

                    Yes, the point I was making was about the scale. The situation is far worse than 10 years ago.

                    "since it was decided that bringing in already trained "skilled migrants" was cheaper than training our own kids."

                    Training our own is preferable, but it takes time and we still may not have enough to allow for population growth. Bringing in trained migrants will likely always be part of the solution. Right now it needs to be a big part.
                    • KJT …

                      12 July 2022 at 7:50 pm

                      No. It doesn't, because it will just carry on the addiction. And the problem of adding more people when the infrastructure cannot possibly be expanded fast enough to keep up.
                  • DavidJ …

                    12 July 2022 at 8:54 pm

                    "because it will just carry on the addiction."

                    Unless we have willing trainees, and can train them in sufficient numbers, there is no option. Besides, having foreign trained nurses helps with cultural and professional diversity. It's a good thing.
              • Anker …

                12 July 2022 at 7:30 pm

                And your point is KJT.?

                Yes its been a problem for years. I posted recently an article by Dr Ian Powell who met with David Clark 5 and a half years ago and said there are three problems for the workforce……staff shortages, staff shortages and staff shortages.
                • KJT …

                  12 July 2022 at 7:55 pm

                  2009. Though I could look up almost any other year.

                  On solutions to the shortage of doctors in Australia and New Zealand | The Medical Journal of Australia (mja.com.au)

                  • "Australia and New Zealand are the most reliant of the OECD countries on foreign doctors."
        • psych nurse 12.1.1.2

          12 July 2022 at 3:43 pm

          I wish the media instead of harping on and on about the need for immigrant nurses would check out the requirements for Registration with the NZ Nursing Council. basically an applicant from a country where the education is in English, UK, Ireland, Singapore and USA and Canada where all conditions are met registration will be granted in 30 or so days. All other countries will have to prove scope and competencies and pass an IELTS exam, most don't. To grant immediate residency without registration would be foolhardy as all we would have is a number of Nurse Aides who like most immigrant Nurses be gone to Australia as soon as able.
          • RosieLee 12.1.1.2.1

            12 July 2022 at 4:38 pm

            Absolutely. I want to know that the nurses looking after me are properly trained and qualified to NZ standards.
        • Anker 12.1.1.3

          12 July 2022 at 4:37 pm

          FFS yes lets bring these nurses back! It's desperate.
          • Puckish Rogue 12.1.1.3.1

            12 July 2022 at 4:41 pm

            C'mon get real, its only desperate for plebs like us, the ruling class don't have to worry about it

            Be kind

            Aroha
      • felix 12.1.2

        12 July 2022 at 7:39 pm

        Why would you want every layer of the public service staffed by people who don't have the wits or the fortitude to refuse to follow stupid orders?
        • Incognito 12.1.2.1

          12 July 2022 at 9:04 pm

          So much stupidity all around!

          https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-high-court-rules-vaccination-mandates-for-educators-healthcare-workers-justified-dismisses-challenge/Q4NCC26OS7VOPOP72AR7TSYRJU/
    • Anne 12.2

      12 July 2022 at 4:23 pm

      Let them work?

      NO!
      • Puckish Rogue 12.2.1

        12 July 2022 at 4:37 pm

        Let them work?
        • Anne 12.2.1.1

          12 July 2022 at 5:16 pm

          Done it.
      • Anker 12.2.2

        12 July 2022 at 4:44 pm

        Why not let them work Anne?

        Is it that you fear they will be more likely to pass covid on? Or you think they shouldn't be practicing if they don't agree with all medical procedures?
        • KJT 12.2.2.1

          12 July 2022 at 8:04 pm

          They are more likely to pass covid on.

          As well as being less likely to take other sensible precautions to protect their patients.
          • Incognito 12.2.2.1.1

            12 July 2022 at 9:26 pm

            As psych nurse mentioned @ 13.2.1 no health care worker has died yet from attracting Covid-19 at work in NZ. To mandate a vaccinated workforce is helping a lot to keep it this way.
          • mauī 12.2.2.1.2

            12 July 2022 at 10:47 pm

            Anecdotally I've seen it spread through all different groups of people, vaccination status doesn't seem to be a deciding factor, but I'd be interested to know if we have evidence of only the unvaccinated being the superspreaders?? Highly vaccinated countries are getting high case numbers are they not?

            Your second sentence is a slur on these health workers, as their job everyday requires sensible decision making.
            • KJT 12.2.2.1.2.1

              13 July 2022 at 8:21 am

              "Anecdotally"???

              https://www.bbc.com/news/world-51235105

              USA. 67% vaccinated. Death rate 308/100k.
              NZ 94% vaccinated. Death rate 31/100k.
              It is even more striking if you compare highly vaccinated US states, with the Republican idiotvilles.
            • KJT 12.2.2.1.2.2

              13 July 2022 at 8:33 am

              "job everyday requires sensible decision making".

              Which is why we don't need idiots, in medical care.

              They did enough damage in parliament grounds.
13. Anne 13

    12 July 2022 at 5:15 pm

    You know perfectly well why nurses (and doctors) who are not vaccinated (and masked) can't work in their profession so don't pretend otherwise.
    • Puckish Rogue 13.1

      12 July 2022 at 5:18 pm

      But surely masking up is all thats needed to protect us from the virus, especially if we're vaccinated, therefore the nurses just need to wear ppe and we're all good to go

      Unless…
      • Anker 13.1.1

        12 July 2022 at 7:32 pm

        Masking up and regular testing. You know like what happened in MIQ before there was a vaccine
        • Incognito 13.1.1.1

          12 July 2022 at 8:50 pm

          Please tell us what happened in MIQ before there was a vaccine and how that compares with working in a healthcare setting. Just for good measure you may want to include a comparison of transmissibility of the current variants vs. the earlier ones that are relevant to MIQ.
          • Anker 13.1.1.1.1

            12 July 2022 at 9:59 pm

            My point is Incognito that prior to vaccines nurses worked MIQ. There are many health care settings but in MIQ and and at the Jet Park where covid cases went, nurses interacted with people,taking swabs, temparatures monitoring symptoms etc, with great care. They were also tested regularly.

            Having attended an ED in the last few weeks where we were not asked if we were vacinnated, nor were we particularly isolated, nor tested for covid, I am unsure that there is that much difference
    • Rosemary McDonald 13.2

      12 July 2022 at 5:25 pm

      You know perfectly well why nurses (and doctors) who are not vaccinated (and masked) can't work in their profession …

      We do?

      Vaccine effectiveness studies have conclusively demonstrated the benefit of COVID-19 vaccines in reducing individual symptomatic and severe disease, resulting in reduced hospitalisations and intensive care unit admissions. However, the impact of vaccination on transmissibility of SARS-CoV-2 needs to be elucidated.

      This study showed that the impact of vaccination on community transmission of circulating variants of SARS-CoV-2 appeared to be not significantly different from the impact among unvaccinated people.

      The scientific rationale for mandatory vaccination in the USA relies on the premise that vaccination prevents transmission to others, resulting in a “pandemic of the unvaccinated”.

      Yet, the demonstration of COVID-19 breakthrough infections among fully vaccinated health-care workers (HCW) in Israel, who in turn may transmit this infection to their patients, requires a reassessment of compulsory vaccination policies leading to the job dismissal of unvaccinated HCW in the USA. Indeed, there is growing evidence that peak viral titres in the upper airways of the lungs and culturable virus are similar in vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals.2,3

      https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00768-4/fulltext
      • psych nurse 13.2.1

        12 July 2022 at 5:56 pm

        According to WHO some 180,000 Health Care workers worldwide died of Covid, contacted in the course of their work. In the UK some 900, NZ zilch. You should be eternally grateful to the NZ government for their response to the pandemic, I am. You can reference these figures on Google when you next find evidence to back up your conspiracies.
        • Puckish Rogue 13.2.1.1

          12 July 2022 at 6:09 pm

          Of or with?
          • Incognito 13.2.1.1.1

            12 July 2022 at 8:54 pm

            of/from
        • Rosemary McDonald 13.2.1.2

          12 July 2022 at 6:51 pm

          …find evidence to back up your conspiracies.

          What conspiracies? I provided a link to a letter in The Lancet which suggests that Covid vaccine mandates for healthworkers are unjustified because studies show that it makes no difference whether the worker is vaccinated or not with respect to transmission or viral load. The writer provides references.

          You offer un- referenced figures and slurs.
          • Temp ORary 13.2.1.2.1

            13 July 2022 at 12:21 am

            The Franco-Peredes Lancet letter from which you quote is not scientific research: Rosemary McDonald. Rather it is a comment on a study by Singanayaman et al (2021): Community transmission and viral load kinetics of the SARS-CoV-2 delta (B.1.617.2) variant in vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals in the UK: a prospective, longitudinal, cohort study. Who are not at all impressed with him in their response, given their pointed line about misinterpretation, in the paragraph immediately preceding their brief discussion of Franco-Peredes' comment:

            Ultimately, one has to consider the totality of data on SAR estimates, which are generated using different methods and populations, each with their own particular strengths and limitations. The public health messages of our paper and media briefing (Science Media Centre, London, Oct 28, 2021) are thus complementary to the findings of Knol and colleagues. First, despite vaccination, the delta variant readily transmits in households, and unvaccinated people cannot therefore rely on the immunity of the vaccinated population for protection as they remain susceptible to infection, severe illness, and death. Second, increasing population immunity via booster programmes and vaccination of teenagers will help to increase the population-level protective effect of vaccination on delta-variant transmission. Third, direct protection of those at risk of severe outcomes, via vaccination and non-pharmacological interventions, remain necessary to contain the burden of disease. Fortunately, the vast majority of media coverage of our paper, comprising over 360 news stories to date, has conveyed these important messages without misinterpretation.

            Although our findings support Franco-Peredes’ conclusion that vaccination status should not replace social and physical public health mitigation practices, the above clarifications explain why our findings do not support his assertion that mandatory vaccination of health-care workers would not reduce nosocomial SARS-CoV-2 transmission.

            https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00761-1/fulltext

            Original study (a bit dated now because; delta, rather than; omicron, SARS-CoV-2 variant):

            https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00648-4/fulltext
            • Rosemary McDonald 13.2.1.2.1.1

              13 July 2022 at 8:35 am

              The Franco-Peredes Lancet letter from which you quote is not scientific research: Rosemary McDonald. Rather it is a comment …

              Yes. I did state that it was a letter I was quoting from in my comment. In your rush to prove me a fool, did you not read what I wrote?

              Can you provide scientific proof that the Pfizer Product prevents infection and transmission of the Omicron variants? Or at least reduces infection and transmission sufficiently to justify exclusion of much needed health and disability workers?

              And I'd like to see those scientific papers that show that the mRNA injections are safe and there will be no long term adverse effects from continual boosting?

              (Full disclosure here…I was the paid carer of my tetraplegic partner from April 2020 when this payment was allowed because of home care worker shortage and fear of infection with carers going into multiple homes. This payment of course was stopped when both my partner and I chose not to partake of the Pfizer product. Stopped because…paying for the work I do would somehow increase the risk of infection? Who knows.? The properly triple jabbed carer sent out to merely sit with my man so I could do the shopping came to our home a day before testing positive and after a weekend partying out of town. She was symptomatic. Despite having already had Omicron in March…I too also developed a sore throat etc for a few days. I'm not sure what country you are living in, but around these parts its generally accepted that vaccination status means nothing in terms of getting infected, and those already vulnerable are still sadly falling off their perches despite being multiply jabbed. )
              • KJT …

                13 July 2022 at 8:38 am

                USA. 67% vaccinated. Death rate 308/100k.
                NZ 94% vaccinated. Death rate 31/100k.
                It is even more striking if you compare highly vaccinated US states, with the Republican idiotvilles.
                • Rosemary McDonald …

                  13 July 2022 at 9:07 am

                  Sigh. Have you not been following what has been happening in the US regarding healthcare? As much as healthcare might exist for the millions who cannot afford it in that obscene jealously protected private profit driven system. Compare apple with apples.

                  Japan has been doing quite well.

                  But what truly sets it apart from many places, particularly Asian neighbors like China, is it’s managed to limit deaths without mandates and with few restrictions. The constitution prevents imposing lockdowns backed by police actions, meaning that even during a state of emergency the government puts the onus on businesses and individuals to change their behavior.

                  https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-06-17/how-japan-achieved-one-of-the-world-s-lowest-covid-death-rates

                  Considering our much lower population density (a factor with an airborne disease) Japan has done much better than NZ…without the stick waving and vicious mandates.

                  And treating the population like helpless, mewling infants.
                  • KJT …

                    13 July 2022 at 11:16 am

                    Japans population doesn't need "stick waving" because they follow sensible precautions without it.

                    Coronavirus manners in Japan (japan-guide.com)

                    Japanese do not have to be told not to make other people sick.

                    Unlike a proportion of our population. Who need to be treated like "mewling" moaning infants. Because they are!
                • RedLogix …

                  13 July 2022 at 9:44 am

                  That is deeply flawed comparison that pretends vaccination rate is the only variable that is different between the the US and NZ. In fact despite their relatively low total vaccination rate the US death data is not very different from many other similar developed nations.

                  The story is far more complex than you are pretending. For example India has a very similar vaccination rate to the US at 66%, but a far lower total death rate according to the OurWorldinData link above.
                  • KJT …

                    13 July 2022 at 11:11 am

                    That is only one piece of evidence, of many.

                    It is the anti vaccers and their apologists, like you who ignore complexity. Who cannot comprehend that sciencentific evidence is a jigsaw of many pieces. Not just one, or a few datapoints! or "aneqdotes".

                    And, of course you prefer you ignore the differences in neighbouring US States, where "other variables" have less effect than between NZ and the USA.

                    We all know why India has less deaths. If you do not have an excellent immune system in India, you won't survive to adulthood.
                    • RedLogix …

                      13 July 2022 at 11:37 am

                      I point out that your simplistic comparison is flawed and show one example of how reality is much more complex – and you accuse me of ignoring complexity.

                      I don't know how you expect a constructive conversation on that basis.
        • Anker 13.2.1.3

          12 July 2022 at 7:33 pm

          psych nurse that is a shocking statistic. Really shocking
      • Stan 13.2.2

        12 July 2022 at 9:13 pm

        Hi, Rosemary

        Thank you for the link. I think you are seeing things that don't actually exist in this letter to the Lancet.

        Yes, there was no difference in viral load or nasopharangeal levels of Covid19, between vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals. I think you then imply that it's ok for doctors to be unvaccinated when seeing patients.

        This is overly simplistic in that viral load doesn’t necessarily equate with transmissibility.

        This is one letter in a medical journal versus a large body of evidence backing vaccination for medical professionals to protect their patients.

        Sorry out running right now can't easily do a decent search for you in the rain, but lots of clear evidence out there.
        • Rosemary McDonald 13.2.2.1

          13 July 2022 at 8:50 am

          Sorry out running right now can't easily do a decent search for you in the rain, but lots of clear evidence out there.

          And there's a lot of real world evidence that despite complying with mandates multiply 'vaccinated' medical staff are being infected with Covid and becoming symptomatic. And needing time off work.

          Somewhere there will be data showing the % of folks who became infected, were symptomatic, needed hospitalisation and sadly died of/from/with Covid before the Magic Jabs were deployed.

          From memory, 80% of those infected in 2020 had no symptoms…. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/08/more-than-80percent-of-people-with-coronavirus-had-no-symptoms-uk-study.html

          It would be very interesting to compare those data with the data collected recently.

          A pity RNZ has now removed the comparisons between unvaccinated, fully vaccinated and boosted with respect to new cases, hospitalisations and deaths…because before they were removed…the graphics were showing sweet f/a difference.
    • Anker 13.3

      12 July 2022 at 7:28 pm

      But Anne, I understand the only Dr in Muripara who refused the vacinne has been allowed bcak to work. Maybe the powers that be thought it was better to have a Dr rather than no Dr at all.
      • Incognito 13.3.1

        12 July 2022 at 8:43 pm

        You seem to understand very little because you didn’t do any research, did you?

        Why don’t you Google it and let us know what you find? BTW, it is Murupara.
        • Anker 13.3.1.1

          12 July 2022 at 10:05 pm

          Ouch! Are you ok Incognito? Did I touch a nerve?

          While I didn't provide a link for my brief comment about the Dr at Murupara, it is more or less as Rosemary said. Another reason to bring back unvaxed nurses is indeed if they have had covid in the last three months (likely if they are unvaxxed) as they will have natural immunity.

          We are due to get a booster soon, which we will do, although I haven't taken the time to read how effective it is in providing immunity. I imagine it must provide some.
      • Rosemary McDonald 13.3.2

        12 July 2022 at 8:46 pm

        Maybe the powers that be thought it was better to have a Dr rather than no Dr at all.

        At the time he was suspended, he had been restricted to carrying out consultations via Telehealth due to not being immunised against Covid-19.

        Because of his recent recovery from Covid-19, he has received a three-month exemption from the Covid-19 order and is able to practise

        https://www.nzdoctor.co.nz/article/news/murupara-doctor-back-practice

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