Open mike 13/08/2023

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, August 13th, 2023 - 88 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:


Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

88 comments on “Open mike 13/08/2023 ”

  • Comments are now closed

    • Dennis Frank 2.1
      13 August 2023 at 9:50 am

      Well, if that's what happens, I guess we'll all have to give them credit for their machavellian leaking of it to the Nat deputy leader a month back. Most people wouldn't expect Labour to be that clever.

      • Phillip ure 2.1.1
        13 August 2023 at 10:12 am

        If your deliberate-leak theory is correct… it's a shot own foot for labour.

        The early leak has taken all the whizz-bang out of it…

        (And my previously voiced fears that this is it..is those worst fears realized..)

        • mikesh 2.1.1.1
          13 August 2023 at 12:26 pm

          They could keep it simple and abolish GST altogether. Pay for the move wit a more steeply progressive tax system.

        • Anne 2.1.1.2
          13 August 2023 at 4:49 pm

          "If your deliberate-leak theory is correct… it's a shot own foot for labour."

          In the past when I was more politically involved, the primary source of most leaks was believed to be a public servant – someone who knows enough to put two and two together… The leaking occurs in a roundabout sort of way so that original source is rarely identified.

          Just saying.

    • bwaghorn 2.2
      13 August 2023 at 9:52 am

      https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300949203/labour-to-promise-to-take-gst-off-fresh-and-frozen-fruit-and-vegetables

      Looks like it's a go, pathetic tinkering, I've been getting the feeling for a while that chippie is all about chippie, , be greens or tpm for me.

      • Cricklewood 2.2.1
        13 August 2023 at 10:31 am

        Its awful policy and I hope it never gets enacted.

        Screws with the simplicity of the gst system, provides minimal if any benefit where its needed ($5-10 per week) at best.

        Far better to leave the system alone and give everyone $10 per week by way of a tax free threshold or something

  3. Blazer 3
    13 August 2023 at 8:59 am

    Looking at the calibre of elected representatives of the 'leader of the free world',there's really no cause for alarm.

    There are candidates here in NZ of major parties who believe there is an invisible being in the sky…who has 10 things you are not allowed to…do.

    The bottom of the barrel must be near empty these days ,when you look at the credentials of political aspirants.ACT is a good example.

  4. pat 4
    13 August 2023 at 9:27 am

    Under the Banking Association’s Orderly scenario, decisive climate action would limit the world to 1.4°C temperature rise – and still has the potential to deliver a positive impact to domestic GDP.

    "That is completely implausible," says Sandy Trust from EY, the author of a recent report by the UK Institute of Actuaries.

    Compare the banks' worst case scenario with the one designed by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change – one where the world continues to rely intensely on fossil fuels. In a world that assumes 4.4 degrees of warming by 2100, society would be facing an existential risk of collapse, Trust says.

    Matt Raeburn, a New Zealand-based climate scenarios specialist with consulting firm WSP, also doesn’t think the banks' scenarios properly reflect the risk.

    "To put it colloquially, when I read the NZ Banking Association’s scenarios, I just don’t think they get it yet," he says.

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/its-going-to-be-messy-banks-underestimate-threat-of-climate-change

    "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." Upton Sinclair

  5. Reality 5
    13 August 2023 at 9:29 am

    Pleasing to see Stuff investigating some of desperate Winston's weird candidates. High time it was exposed who he is consorting with.

    Not surprising now that he made a pilgrimage to the protesters at Parliament last year. There he was, amongst the rag tag unwashed mob, sauntering around in his finely tailored suit and Italian shoes. He was using the occasion to appear relevant, but no way would he camp down among the chaos and rubbish and spend the night there.

    • Mike the Lefty 5.1
      13 August 2023 at 9:46 am

      Isn't there a proverb about if you lie with dogs you end up with fleas?

      • Phillip ure 5.1.1
        13 August 2023 at 10:19 am

        It's more if you lie with anti-vax loons..you end up with candidates of a similar calibre ..

  6. Blazer 6
    13 August 2023 at 10:14 am

    War….when will the madness..end?

    'The World Bank has estimated that rebuilding Ukraine after the war could cost as much as $350 billion.

    'Beyond the immediate deficit, Ukraine's government has an estimated US$750 billion in direct economic costs from the war, which could be as high as US$1 trillion if indirect costs are added'.

    (And the human cost-10 million displaced,100’s of thousands dead and injured.)

    US President asks for NZ$34 billion for Ukraine as counteroffensive sputters | Stuff.co.nz

  7. Anne 7
    13 August 2023 at 10:44 am

    Watched Jack Tane with Steven Joyce on Q&A this morning. Twenty minutes of free campaign advertising for the National Party. 🙄

    • bwaghorn 7.1
      13 August 2023 at 10:52 am

      I thought it was a good interview, don't agree with everything thing Joyce says but he ain't the worst, of course there's a huge difference between putting a cable under ground, broadband rollout , and putting light rail down the middle of a Auckland rd, maybe the next government should hire him to do it. !!!

      • Muttonbird 7.1.1
        13 August 2023 at 11:58 am

        The broadband rollout seems to be the go to project when the Nats say they get things done. It was their crowning achievement over 9 years.

        As you say, hiring cheap offshore labour to dig a few micro trenches in cities and towns is not a particularly difficult project.

        • Patricia Bremner 7.1.1.1
          13 August 2023 at 12:07 pm

          Wasn't Dotcom threatening to do that, then Key got involved and Chorus was born? Is my memory correct?

        • Visubversa 7.1.1.2
          13 August 2023 at 5:14 pm

          A lot of the Broadband cables were thrust – only the ends were dug. No need to close the road, no trenching, just the equivalent of "keyhole surgery".

          • William 7.1.1.2.1
            13 August 2023 at 10:34 pm

            A lot of the Chorus fibre in Wellington was installed late in the rollout and is strung overhead between poles. It's a weird hodgepodge of some small sections underground and then up a pole to continue as an aerial cable.

  8. arkie 8
    13 August 2023 at 11:07 am

    The Greens have announced a clean power payment policy plan:

    The Clean Power Payment, which is planned to be part of a broader Zero Carbon Homes upgrade, will allow:

    • grants of up to $6000 to cover the cost of installing solar power and making energy efficient upgrades,
    • interest-free loans of up to $30,000 to cover the cost of additional zero carbon home upgrades,
    • tax deductible zero carbon upgrades for rental homes.

    The Zero Carbon Homes upgrade is planned to:

    • scale up solar on Kainga Ora homes to 30,000 more households in the next three years,
    • expand Warmer Kiwi Homes to cover more zero carbon upgrades such as replacing gas heaters,
    • fund Community Energy providers and by Māori, for Māori approaches.

    Grants could be used to cover 25 percent of the cost of things like better insulation; replacing fossil-fuel appliances, like gas heaters, with clean alternatives, like heat pumps; and to purchase rooftop solar power

    The funding would come from revenue from the Emissions Trading Scheme, through the Climate Emergency Response Fund.

    The total operating expenditure for all the initiatives in this area it planned would be about $682 million by the year 2026/27.

    The party claims the Clean Power Payment will save households up to $1200 on their energy bills, every year, and slash carbon emissions.

    It would be scaled up over three years, with an initial focus on lower-income households.

    Green Party co-leader James Shaw said while people struggled with energy challenges, the planet was heating "at frightening speed".

    "There is a clear answer staring us in the face: warm homes powered by clean, cheap, low-carbon energy, supplied straight from our roofs," Shaw said.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/495691/elections-2023-political-parties-announce-major-policies

    • arkie 8.1
      13 August 2023 at 11:18 am

      “The Clean Power Payment will deliver lower bills, more jobs, and cut climate emissions. That is what the Green Party is offering this election.

      “We are proving once again that we are the only party with the bold solutions people need right now.

      “Our Income Guarantee will ensure everyone has an income of at least $385 per each, so we people always have enough to afford the weekly shop, pay the rent, or cover unexpected costs. Rent controls will put a limit on how much landlords can increase people’s rent each year. And now the Clean Power Payment will cut emissions and power bills, saving people hundreds of dollars a year.

      “Everything we need to upgrade our homes exists. However, most of us do not have thousands of dollars spare to pay for things like solar panels, heat pumps, or double-glazing.

      “The Clean Power Payment is the obvious answer to that problem.

      “Under our plan, people will be able to access grants of up to $6,000 to cover the cost of clean energy upgrades, like putting solar power on their roof, or installing a heat pump. Plus, interest-free loans of up to $30,000 to cover the cost of additional zero carbon home upgrades.

      “The Clean Power Payment will help people to upgrade their homes to be warmer, without relying on dirty fuels, so everyone can come home to a warm place which doesn’t pollute the planet,” says Marama Davidson.

      https://www.greens.org.nz/saving_the_planet_and_saving_money_it_s_as_easy_as_more_green_mps

      James Shaw's speech is here: https://www.greens.org.nz/clean_power_payment_james_shaw_speech

      • Phillip ure 8.1.1
        13 August 2023 at 11:46 am

        The greens deserve credit for this rolling maul of logical/sensible/well thought out/problem solving policies..they have been serving up..

        This latest one maintains that quality level…

    • SPC 8.2
      13 August 2023 at 11:31 am

      Greater energy efficiency is the only way to be less dependent on increasing the power supply (given the resources used to produce equipment for new generation) is to require, or incentivise, such investment.

    • The Chairman 8.3
      13 August 2023 at 1:04 pm

      On average it will cost around $35,000 to double glaze a 100m2 home and around up to $20,000 for solar power and battery setup.

      Does the Green's new policy have provisions for households that are deemed unable to service a loan?

      Or have those poorer/struggling households (that need the financial relief the most) been overlooked?

      • arkie 8.3.1
        13 August 2023 at 2:57 pm

        No interest means there isn't the pressure to service the loan above what is affordable and people will be able to get a grant of $6000 as well as the loan. Did you perhaps overlook all of this in the announcement?

        • grants of up to $6000 to cover the cost of installing solar power and making energy efficient upgrades,
        • interest-free loans of up to $30,000 to cover the cost of additional zero carbon home upgrades,

        …

        Grants could be used to cover 25 percent

        …

        It would be scaled up over three years, with an initial focus on lower-income households.

        https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/495691/elections-2023-political-parties-announce-major-policies

        • The Chairman 8.3.1.1
          13 August 2023 at 5:08 pm

          No interest doesn't reduce the principal (amounts shown above) and the grant comes nowhere near covering the total amount, as you also pointed out. Thus, no, I didn't overlook them.

          You are aware ones income and liabilities are taken into account when seeking a loan, leaving a number unable to service, thus secure a loan.

          Furthermore, scaling up solar on Kainga Ora homes doesn't help poor/struggling homeowners.

          So it seems those poorer/struggling households (that need the financial relief the most) have been overlooked. Unless you have something else to point too?

          • arkie 8.3.1.1.1
            13 August 2023 at 5:21 pm

            If there is no interest on a loan it can be paid off slowly, there is no evidence these are to be means tested beyond having a regular income; the extra money to pay the loan is acquired through power saving from the increased thermal efficiency gained by the improvements.

            Who are these poorer/struggling households in your opinion? Not people in social housing?

            • arkie 8.3.1.1.1.1
              13 August 2023 at 5:33 pm

              Then there's their taxation policy with an income guarantee and a $10k threshold. All these policies overlap it's a bizarre claim that the 'poorer/struggling' have been overlooked, there's no one else offering more for the struggling, or for the planet. Party vote Green

              • The Chairman …
                13 August 2023 at 5:51 pm

                The income guarantee is a very small amount.

                • arkie …
                  14 August 2023 at 8:28 am

                  no one's income will ever fall below $385 per week, after tax

                  A very small amount, that happens to be more that what's currently offered. But no, you say the Greens overlook the ‘poorer/struggling’.

            • The Chairman 8.3.1.1.1.2
              13 August 2023 at 5:46 pm

              The ability to service a loan results in whether or not people are able to obtain one.

              https://www.nzba.org.nz/banking-information/consumer-lending/you-and-consumer-lending-law/

              Who are these poorer/struggling households in your opinion? Not people in social housing?

              Those on low or fixed incomes. Those that have high debt and little spare income. Therefore, power savings may not help secure the loan.

              • arkie …
                13 August 2023 at 5:54 pm

                That only applies to commercial lending practices which all involve interest. The Climate Emergency Response Fund would be the lender of the interest free loans, not banks.

                So when the Greens said: an initial focus on lower-income households. You saw that as overlooking those households on low or fixed income?

                • The Chairman …
                  13 August 2023 at 6:42 pm

                  Can you show me where the Climate Emergency Response Fund (being the lender) allows them to override the responsible lending rules?

                  When the Greens said: an initial focus on lower-income households, they overlooked homeowners on low or fixed incomes, as I've been pointing out to you.

                  • arkie …
                    14 August 2023 at 8:30 am

                    So does consumer credit law apply to the provision of student loans, another interest free, government funded loan system?

                    • The Chairman …
                      14 August 2023 at 10:36 am

                      Are you saying instead of helping poorer/struggling households with larger grants, they should be burdened with debt they cannot afford to repay?

                      Is that your idea of helping them?

                    • arkie …
                      14 August 2023 at 10:47 am

                      We are disagreeing over whether the debt is affordable. You are making the assumption that the savings in power couldn't be used to pay off the loan, that the income guarantee wouldn't improve the lot of those 'poorer/struggling' households that own their own home but somehow have insufficient income to pay off an interest free loan. That's quite a few contra-evidenced assumptions.

                    • The Chairman …
                      14 August 2023 at 11:04 am

                      If savings in power is going to pay off debt, what savings do they actually gain from the process? Nada. Again, not really helping them, is it?

                    • weka []
                      14 August 2023 at 11:50 am

                      once the debt is paid off their power costs are lower going forward than they are now.

                      Additionally, they’ve increased household, community and societal resiliency in the climate crisis as well as helping mitigate.

                    • The Chairman …
                      14 August 2023 at 11:22 am

                      Single, 25 years or over on a benefit gets $337.74 in the hand. And that is not counting any other top ups.

                      Sole parent in the hand without any other top ups is $472.79

                      Single, living alone on a pension gets $496.37 in the hand without any other top up.

                      https://www.workandincome.govt.nz/products/benefit-rates/benefit-rates-april-2023.html

                      So again, the income guarantee is a very small amount that some benefits already exceed.

                    • arkie …
                      14 August 2023 at 11:48 am

                      It's helping them to have warmer, more energy efficient home for a start. At the end of paying the loan they have a warmer, drier, cheaper-to-run home, have paid no interest and will continue to benefit from the savings.

                      So a lot more than nothing.

                    • The Chairman …
                      14 August 2023 at 12:06 pm

                      @weka

                      once the debt is paid off their power costs are lower going forward than they are now.

                      That largely depends on the repayment rate (how much are the savings) thus time it takes to payoff the loan. Coupled with the longevity of the product.

                      Teslar power wall warranty is 10 years.

                    • weka []
                      14 August 2023 at 12:14 pm

                      Most well-made solar panels will have a warranty of 25 years or more. This might make you think this is the point at which they stop generating power. However, that isn’t quite the full story.

                      The 25-year warranty isn’t an actual product lifetime. After two and a half decades of operation, a solar panel will still produce energy, just at a lower rate.

                      Estimates on exactly how much less vary, but a 2012 study from the US-based National Renewable Energy Laboratory found that solar panels lose about 0.8% of their original efficiency every year. By this estimate, after 25 years, a solar panel will still be producing about 82.5% of the power it did when it first started.

                      https://www.zenenergy.co.nz/blog/what-is-the-life-expectancy-of-a-solar-panel

          • SPC 8.3.1.1.2
            13 August 2023 at 6:17 pm

            90% grants – heating and insulation – CSC holder and those in areas 7-9.

            https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2308/S00070/over-50000-more-kiwis-to-be-eligible-for-insulation-grants.htm

  9. fisiani 9
    13 August 2023 at 12:41 pm

    Labour thinks saving $4 a week on veges will win votes means they think voters are just dumb

    • Mac1 9.1
      13 August 2023 at 12:56 pm

      Fisiani returns after four long years away from The Standard! Nice to see you're still fizzing…..

    • The Chairman 9.2
      13 August 2023 at 1:16 pm

      Moreover, it won't kick in till April.

      Once again, showing how out of touch Labour are. Struggling households need far more than $5 a week and they need relief now.

    • MickeyBoyle 9.3
      13 August 2023 at 1:55 pm

      Sadly it appears that the leaks were accurate and Nicola Willis was able to take all the gloss off this policy.

      It concerns me that many on the left appear to be opposed to this plan, but I understand why.

      I was hoping for something truly transformational to inspire the base and change the lefts fortunes.

      I don't think that was it…

      And Ffs, sort your microphone out beforehand!

  10. Corey 10
    13 August 2023 at 2:08 pm

    Labours big big announcement was a dud.

    A policy that had already leaked to the public.

    The Blairite is firmly in save the furniture mode, he doesn't believe or want another term

  11. Descendant Of Smith 11
    13 August 2023 at 6:05 pm

    About twenty years ago one newspaper published an article about religious nutters from the USA seeing NZ as a place that was small enough to remake in the image they wanted. They named 50 very well off Americans who were part of a list. Some had already moved here. I've never been able to find the article in recent years.

    I'm occasionally reminded of this when something happens eg when Act had to suddenly get citizenship a few years back for five of their candidates who were recent arrivals to NZ, when Thiel was given citizenship, the increasing number of religious people in parties, the rise of Trump, the increase inn religious teaching the secular state schools, etc.

    Been watching the documentary about Donald Cline, the fertility doctor who used his own sperm to impregnate his patients. In this is mentioned a group I had not previously heard of – Quiverfall.

    Quiverfull is a Christian theological position that sees large families as a blessing from God.It encourages procreation, abstaining from all forms of birth control, natural family planning, and sterilization.
    Some sources have referred to the Quiverfull position as providentialism, while other sources have simply referred to it as a manifestation of natalism.

    It is most widespread in the United States but it also has adherents in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, and elsewhere. One 2006 estimate put the number of families which subscribe to this philosophy as ranging from "the thousands to the low tens of thousands".

    Somewhat surprised to find adherents in NZ.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiverfull

    • Molly 11.1
      13 August 2023 at 6:51 pm

      Posted some musing on this back in 2013, when I was still connected to the home education community:

      https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-02062013/#comment-642343

      Just like outside of home education, there are a variety of different beliefs in the home education families – ranging from the familiar Christian families, to brethrens, but I do recall a couple of meetings with US immigrant families – that followed more fundamental doctrines. (I was point of contact for new families for a couple of committees). It was then I was introduced to the quiverful concept.

      (Contact didn't last long, once they realised my last name did not match my children's and I wasn't married, but there were enough to be a noticeable cohort.)

      It was so long ago, reading the comment feels like I'm reading someone else but here's what I posted back then:

      "In conjunction with this, I also recently complained to our National Council for allowing religious messages Creating a God-Centred family – workshop by to be sent via the secular NCHENZ message loop.

      Decided to give the two seconds required to google the advertised speakers with Geoff Botkin mentioned above, and they seem to be well acquainted.

      In summary:
      – a message on the homeschool loops in 2009 which was tl;dr
      – recalled that message after reading Lusks amateur leaked documents
      – was able to google that message and read again, which now sounds more credible given some of the recent US families that have moved to NZ, and the workshops that have been offered by the christian support groups in the last couple of years
      – found links between the person named in the original (2009) email and those currently doing the rounds within the christian homeschooling groups.

      If any of the original email is true, then imagine if this group aligns with funding a hardA-right wing conservative government. The families I have had direct contact with seemed to be middle class, but would also be quite likely to give a significant portion of their income to their church (which may end up including a political lobby group)."

      As mentioned, long out of the loop in the home education community. If anyone else is still involved, it'd be good to have an update on whether they have seen any development along these lines.

  12. Sabine 12
    13 August 2023 at 7:06 pm

    No GST on fresh produce:

    1. Well I for one can't wait for my discount on fresh veggies, so as long as the poor pay GST on canned Tomatoes and Peas as there is no way they can actually afford fresh food on their income. And fwiw, the Government needs its increased GST take, after all they for sure will not tax the rich and wealthy people such as themselves and their partners/spouses.

    2. Why not also no GST on bread, butter, cheese and meat? To fancy for the poor?

    3. Why not immediately after the election but only starts in April next year? To hard for the businesses and accoutants?

    4. GST is a cost that runs through all steps of production. So would a Farmer be able no pay the GST on his fertilizers, seeds and other cost of production? Or is this only a gift to supermarkets? Or is it a gift to accountants for extra billable hours?

    5. Really Labour. That is the fucking best you can do? That is your help to deal with the cost of living? Who told you that? Like what oracle did you consult that came to you with a booming voice " Remove GST of Fresh Fruit/Veggies, the poor can't afford it but it will make you look like you care"?

    Far out, never did i think that i would watch the implosion of a lefty party due to arrogance, lack of ideas and incompetence at best, willful arrogance at worst.

    • weka 12.1
      13 August 2023 at 7:14 pm

      3. Why not immediately after the election but only starts in April next year? To hard for the businesses and accoutants?

      Because they don't have a magic wand?

      • Sabine 12.1.1
        13 August 2023 at 7:20 pm

        The cost of living is ruining peoples live now, so really they should come up with something that has a bit of urgency attached to it. Anything else is really just posturing and rallying the faithful, but otherwise utterly devoid of meaning.

        Secondly, they are power, full majority, they need no one to cosign that policy if it is so great. After all, as i stated above, the cost of living crisis has been an issue for a while now.

        I mean literally they could bring back the discount on fuel and free public transport for all, immediately, that would have an impact. But maybe that thing is just about grand standing.

        Labour, we are just make up and pretense.. please vote for us, cause otherwise we would have to find jobs.

        • weka 12.1.1.1
          13 August 2023 at 7:31 pm

          Meanwhile, in the real world, the government has a budget and an election. See if you can figure out why that particular policy would start in April.

          • Sabine 12.1.1.1.1
            13 August 2023 at 7:53 pm

            Meanwhile in the real world, people have ran out of money, food, electricity and good faith. Need weekly food parcels and live in cramped emergency housing cause they can't afford to rent a dog kennel.

            I know why its going to start in April, everyone knows. What we can not figure out how this is going to fight the rampant and run a way cost of living today, tomorrow and for the next 8 month.

            Labour has a full majority, they could have removed GST for a while now literally of all food items, and i am sure they could have done that with the full support of the Greens and TPM.

            Yet, they did not. Labour, on record for doing the right things only when they are about to lose an election.

    • William 12.2
      13 August 2023 at 11:45 pm

      "4. GST is a cost that runs through all steps of production. So would a Farmer be able no pay the GST on his fertilizers, seeds and other cost of production?"

      Not so. GST is a transaction that runs through all steps of production, but is only a cost to the final consumer. Farmers pay GST at the time of purchase of seed etc, but, so long as the farming business is registered for GST (because of the level of turnover most have to be), they declare that GST paid by them when they submit their regular GST return to IRD and receive a full refund of that GST paid.

      When they sell their veggies to the supermarket (or any intermediaries) they charge GST on the sale price, declare that amount on their GST return and pay that GST collected to IRD.

      The supermarket does the same on their GST return.

      It's the final consumer who pays the GST charged at time of purchase, cannot register for GST, so cannot claim a refund.

      • Sabine 12.2.1
        15 August 2023 at 11:06 am

        well not quite.

        chances are that you sell more product then you buy raw materials to produce. So in essence businesses also pay GST, specially if they make a profit. But they can write of the cost as a business expense.

        So can i not pay the GST that i was charged when i bought my raw materials, if it adds to he price of fruit and vegetables? After all that is the point? To make fruit and veggies affordable.

        What GST content is removed, only the GST levy where the Supermarket sells a carrot -GST inc -to the end consumer, or the step where the supermarket buys its produce from the farmer GST inc, or the step where the farmer buys fertilizer, land, seeds, water, etc all inc GST? Will the GST content that was accrued by transport be removable? As all these things are part of price setting, i.e. all costs and all accrued GST.

        The reason why GST is regressive is that it is charged at every step of production, and while businesses can write of GST as an expense, they still have to pay the difference of GST paid and GST received, ever month, two month or yearly and can only claim it back at the end of the year. The end consumer however pays for ever cent of GST charged on every step of production.

  13. Grey Area 13
    13 August 2023 at 9:19 pm

    "Really Labour. That is the fucking best you can do?"

    Yep. Labour – betraying NZ since 1984. We're screwed.

    • MickeyBoyle 13.1
      13 August 2023 at 9:39 pm

      My impression is Grant has had to swallow a few dead rats lately. Sir Michael Cullens tax working group was against this policy and so was Grant some months back.

      But Grant is a team player and has done his best here. I don't like the policy personally, I believe there are better, more targeted ways to support kiwis, but this policy is out there now.

      Chris Hipkins although a decent man, isn't the leader we need right now. Grant should've stepped up when Dame Jacinda stepped down.

      But it is what it is. If we get a third term it will be a miracle.

      • Sabine 13.1.1
        15 August 2023 at 11:23 am

        And that is why the Labour party has a good chance of losing. They collectively have no spine, no guts and no not a single conviction that they would defend and / or uphold

        They played their team into being a mockery of a serious political party that can read the room their in.

        But my theory is they don't want to win. Now its time for N to come along and finish the job, and N will. They are the two sides of NZ INC and we are just either profit centres or cost centres.