Open mike 15/04/2012

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1. Pete George 1

   15 April 2012 at 7:44 am

   The National government is often blamed here for “handouts” to rich investors. Cullen blames it on Kevin Rudd.

   Michael Cullen says Kevin Rudd to blame for NZ’s broad Crown retail deposit guarantee scheme that left taxpayers’ with NZ$1b bill

   Cullen says the New Zealand government of the day was “forced into” a much more comprehensive, open ended scheme than it had been considering by Rudd’s “panicky” actions.

   Cullen says the New Zealand Government didn’t want to get itself into such a comprehensive scheme, but had to “because of Rudd’s action.”

   “Whether he was under pressure from the Aussie banks, who have always had enormous amount of entree into the Prime Minister’s office in Australia, I don’t know. He just seemed to me to panic and clearly hadn’t consulted properly with the Australian Treasury about it,” Cullen adds.

   A lot of our economic policy is forced by outside influences, and in this case Rudd seems to have thrown a rock and a hard place at us.
   • Bored 1.1

     15 April 2012 at 9:25 am

     Yes PG, and when are you, Peter Dunce, or for that matter any of the current political class going to shake their heads and say, “Enough is enough, time to regain our sovereignty”? It wont happen because you are on the right side of the pay off divide (the place where you blithely close your eyes to injustice / inequity because “you are all right Jack”).

     Consequently you and all the other RWNJs, (and a whole pile from the left as well) bicker over the rotten fetid carcass left to us as our share of the wealth we produce. And your mate Dunce is about to collude with making the scraps from the rich mans table smaller. Your constant whingeing in his defence disgusts me.
   • Jenny 1.2

     15 April 2012 at 9:29 am

     Protecting the fortunes of the rich with tax payer funds

     In an abrogation of leadership and political buck passing David Cullen makes the cowardly excuse that everyone else was doing it.

     Well they weren’t. And those that didn’t, were much better off than those who did.

     Compare Iceland to Greece.

     After a voter revolt and public referendum against it, the Iceland government refused to bail out the failed private banks and finance companies to the benefit of their people, instead protecting their public accounts.

     In Greece the opposite happened, a referendum on the matter was cancelled, a political dictatorship was imposed, huge loans were taken out on the public account to bail out the wealthy investors, leaving the country indebted and impoverished.

     After rescuing the wealthy investors and failed bankers, the rest of the population was prostrated before the bankers and the government, to pay off the huge loans mostly taken from the EU.

     Pete, which country would you prefer to be living in now?
     • Lanthanide 1.2.1

       15 April 2012 at 4:32 pm

       People who bring up how good Iceland have it are somewhat missing the forest for the trees: a handful of countries can do what Iceland did. If all countries did like Iceland did, the entire system would collapse.

       That isn’t necessarily a bad thing though; it’s going to collapse eventually the only question is when.
       • Colonial Viper 1.2.1.1

         15 April 2012 at 6:21 pm

         If all countries did like Iceland did, the entire system would collapse.

         Nope.

         We could have planned and structured defaults for very specific countries, namely:

         – Greece
         – Ireland
         – Portugal

         And kept the powder of QE/LTRO dry for the real problem countries: France, Italy, Japan.

         Instead, we’ve already used up most of what can be done in a game of pretend/extend, ironically increasing, not decreasing, sovereign debt levels with every so-called “bail out” (in essence new loans needed to cover the repayments on previous loans).
       • Draco T Bastard 1.2.1.2

         15 April 2012 at 8:48 pm

         If all countries did like Iceland did, the entire system would collapse.

         Considering just how bad the system is I don’t have any problem with it collapsing.
2. Carol 2

   15 April 2012 at 7:53 am

   This article aseems to have gone up this morning on Stuff, but it doesn’t have a date/time or author attribution. Some strong language though, “reviled”!

   http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/6744454/Hundreds-beg-committee-to-stop-sale-of-state-assets

   Submissions on National’s reviled Mixed Ownership Model Bill closed on Friday – and the majority of the 600 already made public were in opposition.

   […]
   However, a large proportion of the submitters disagree with Prime Minister John Key’s assertion that National has a mandate for the sale because it won.

   Many called for a referendum on the sale, backing a Labour, Greens and Grey Power alliance which has launched a petition. A number of the correspondents asked to be allowed to appear before the 11 MPs sitting on the finance and expenditure committee.

   Many kept their letters brief, with Panayiotis Matsis writing simply: “NO ASSET SALES.”

   The first submission, from Vivienne Shepherd, called the sell-off “theft”. “How it is that the people of New Zealand are being conned into buying shares they already own, but then those who purchase them will be the chosen ones … I do not give John Key, Bill English and Tony Ryall permission for my 49 per cent to be sold.”
3. Te Reo Putake 3

   15 April 2012 at 8:51 am

   Sad news from Italy with the death of Piermario Morosini. The Livorno player, and former youth international, survived the initial collapse, but a delay in getting the ambulance on the field due to a police car blocking the entrance meant he went without the assistance he needed for some twenty minutes and he apparently succumbed to a heart attack as the ambulance left the field.
    
   Not normally an item for the Standard, I know, but given AS Livorno’s impeccable left wing credentials, I hope Standardistas will spare a moment to salute the club, the fans and the player.
    
   RIP Piermario, solidarity Livorno.
    
    
    
    
   • Vicky32 3.1

     15 April 2012 at 4:45 pm

     RIP Piermario, solidarity Livorno.

     Seconded! He was only 25 years old…
4. mickysavage 4

   15 April 2012 at 9:12 am

   ..
5. mickysavage 5

   15 April 2012 at 9:12 am

   So why are political parties world wide struggling to retain membership?

   I discovered this interesting US paper recently.  It considers part of the problem is that thanks to the internet we are so wired up to the body politic and we receive so many calls to action that many of us are struggling with “decision paralysis”.  To add to this the old way of organizing, with meetings, minutes, financial reports bore too many people who are willing to give time to a cause but do not want to be part of a laborious decision making process.

   People also want to protect their privacy.  Slater’s attack style politics means that many prefer not to engage.

   To succeed in this new world requires a realization that there are four different ways to engage people and each type should be used.

   They include:

   Direct engagement: the individual acts alone to influence society and government.
   Grassroots engagement: individuals act as a part of a loose coalition.
   Organizational engagement: people work through nonprofit and advocacy corporations with governing boards and centralized leadership.
   Network-centric engagement: an individual acts as part of a coordinated network. 

   The growth of environmental groups is an indicator of the type of change that has been occurring.

   The internet has also fueled this change.  Whereas the dissemation of information was previously reserved to the well resourced nowadays anyone with a laptop and a feed can express their point of view and thanks to sites like the Standard have it broadcast to many.
    
   One comment stood out.

   “The most troubling trend and direct threat to the organizational structure is a basic shift in behavior of the American public away from “joiners”. Demographics and membership data show that the average citizen does not join organizations, political parties or institutions.

   Increasingly, individuals get involved in an issue on their own terms rather than on the terms forced on them by organizational membership.  Membership of major organizations is increasingly old, white and declining in number. ”

   Food for thought for Labour in its organizational review. 
   • higherstandard 5.1

     15 April 2012 at 9:32 am

     “So why are political parties world wide struggling to retain membership?”

     Because they’re cunts ?
     • Bored 5.1.1

       15 April 2012 at 9:51 am

       HS, language please.

       I concur with the sentiment but you can think of a dozen more appropriate and less offensive terms.
   • Bored 5.2

     15 April 2012 at 9:43 am

     Maybe Mickey the people cant find who to focus their efforts on. We have got conditioned to comments that reflect our thinking like:

     * “What can the government do? ”
     * “Its not the government fault, they have to do xyz otherwise the economy…..”
     * “We are a small fish…..”
     * “But the banks and corporations actually run things…”

     In effect I believe that most people are disengaged with the concept of participatory democracy because they dont believe the democratic political process can actually run things on their behalf. And they are right to a high degree. Do you think a political party can persuade them to join up without a radical agenda of enpowerment?

     So to Labour: a party who had 9 years in “power” and blithely did nothing but “manage”, went with the flow on globalisation / financialisation, and I would argue did nothing to push back the corporatist erosion of our democratic process. Why would I rejoin as a member?
     • Colonial Viper 5.2.1

       15 April 2012 at 11:35 am

       Yep. Labour continues to let the Right Wing write the rules and frame how the game should be played. Recipe for slip slip sliding backwards and to the rRight – which is what this country has been doing for decades.
     • mickysavage 5.2.2

       15 April 2012 at 11:37 am

       Probably a glass half full argument Bored.  The last Labour Government paid off debt, improved the plight of most of the poor and working class, brought in an ETS, took steps to make our power generation sustainable, poured huge investments into health and education, ran an independent foreign affairs policy, yada yada yada …

       But the trend appears to be world wide and it affects all political parties.  I would appreciate someone pointing out a party which is going against what appears to be a clear trend. 
       • the pink postman 5.2.2.1

         15 April 2012 at 3:14 pm

         Very true Micky but that is not what the Right-Wing press told the people .They attacked !attacked !attacked and we lost . And I have no idea how to counter this.
         One of the main reason the Left is on the back foot is the destruction of the Unions we lost not only protection of workers but the main source of real information of the political situation. The unions not only protected workers but gave many the chance of having an education .WEA informed on a number of issues .Now its all gone and workers main source of any form of political information is the TV news %90 Right-wing biased .Ask any low paid worker if their firm is unionised and they have a blank look about it.The majority have no idea what one is talking about.
         However having said that I was most surprised at how the clued up the young Labout guy on backbenchers was last Friday.
         • mickysavage 5.2.2.1.1

           15 April 2012 at 5:15 pm

           Aye PP.

           The Labour guy was Glenn Riddell, definitely one to watch in the future.
           • james 111 5.2.2.1.1.1

             15 April 2012 at 5:51 pm

             Yes he seemed definitely Gay but not as Gay as the Green representative is being A Gay now a prerequisite for representing both of these parties. There was truth in Damien Ocoonor well publicised news story after all
             • aotearoean …

               15 April 2012 at 5:54 pm

               James you have to be joking.  This has to be the most stupid comment made by a poster to the Standard in the last 12 months if not ever.

               Did you realise you are homophobic? 
             • felix …

               15 April 2012 at 6:05 pm

               What the flippin’ fuck?

               I reckon that sort of pointless bigoted bullshit would be enough to get some people booted out of here for good if they were nothing but waste of pixels at the best of times.

               Luckily for jimmie he’s usually a thoughtful and considered commenter who argues his points well and backs up his statements with evidence, so he’ll probably be sweet.
               • Te Reo Putake …

                 15 April 2012 at 6:15 pm

                 3 weeks last time wasn’t it? Won’t be missed if it’s a lot lot longer this time.
             • Tazirev …

               15 April 2012 at 6:17 pm

               What a fucking numpty you are jimmy
               • Anne …

                 15 April 2012 at 7:03 pm

                 .
             • Draco T Bastard …

               15 April 2012 at 8:50 pm

               Tell me james, are you trying to hide something?
             • Hateatea …

               15 April 2012 at 8:51 pm

               So I see the Sabbath hasn’t had any demonstrable beneficial effect on your commenting standard then, James 111.
                
               You are a non-thinking, homophobic waste of oxygen
             • fender …

               16 April 2012 at 2:05 pm

               With a bit of luck this latest blunder by the pathetic james 111 will result in him imposing a ban on himself from posting his brainless rubbish on this excellent blog site.

               Do us all a favour and just play with your old sock james and give the keyboard a rest. Theres dog shit on the lawn with more to contribute than you “old sock jim”.
   • ianmac 5.3

     15 April 2012 at 9:54 am

     “We will consult widely,” they say blandly. But of course they just carry on doing exactly what they set out to do. “We have listened carefully to what the people had to say and we have taken their views on board.”
     Yeah right! This seems to me to a disincentive for action from the people by the people.
     • Half Crown Millionare 5.3.1

       15 April 2012 at 12:07 pm

       “We will consult widely,” they say blandly. But of course they just carry on doing exactly what they set out to do. “We have listened carefully to what the people had to say and we have taken their views on board.”
       Yeah right! This seems to me to a disincentive for action from the people by the people.”

       Agreed. Take our area (Greater Waikato) Waikato regional council who were told by 60% by the community by way of “communty consultation” that we cannot afford or did not want a right wing elitist Velodrome, but still went ahead and gave 6 million which can be ill afforded by some ratepayers who now have the burden of a special rate for 20 years. Sad day for so called democracy that day.
     • prism 5.3.2

       15 April 2012 at 6:41 pm

       Yeah – ‘they’ have taken the requirement for consultation to heart on many matters. And the ‘consultation’ that has been adopted is a meeting where they listen and then later over-ride peoples objections to whatever, and go ahead with the plan with a bit of parsley on the meat for window dressing. But it is still going to be ground and minced as planned.
   • Pete George 5.4

     15 April 2012 at 10:25 am

     So why are political parties world wide struggling to retain membership?

     No doubt a variety of reasons, including:
     – “what’s the point, won’t be able to change anything”
     – presidentialisation of politics, where local politics doesn’t matter
     – poor reputation of politicians
     – high exposure of people who get involved in politics

     Probably one of the main reasons is that there are vastly more things to do, and ways of doing them. Fifty years ago to have a say in politics you probably had to join a party, now you just have to get on the Internet.
     • Rosemary 5.4.1

       15 April 2012 at 8:41 pm

       Yes, but if they waste too much time on the internet they don’t get elected. You might’ve been the exception to this though because in your case it mightn’t have made any difference. Do you think you might’ve been elected if you hadn’t spent too much time on the internet?
   • Drakula 5.5

     16 April 2012 at 9:18 pm

     MS I think that was a very good analysis on the left rules of engagement. The left as far as I see it is much more wide and deep than partisan politics.
6. Dv 6

   15 April 2012 at 9:17 am

   Found this on trademe discussion

   Looks distinctly sneaky .
   http://www.trademe.co.nz/Community/MessageBoard/Messages.aspx?id=1005210&topic=45

   OK, somebody in government finally woke up from their afternoon snooze and realised that Section 29, article 4 of the EQC Act 1993 created a legally binding 1yr time-frame on the commission. On 2 April 2012, the Gov-General, made an Order in Council relaxing the 1yr time restriction on EQC to pay-out for reinstatement, ie. repair. As I posted before, the CERA Act 2011, Section 71 required this course of action. The order is here: http://www.legislation.govt.nz/regulation/public/2012/0063/l
   atest/DLM4365601.html , and the timing is obviously made to slip through the Easter “downtime” period of Parliament and the media.

   Yes, this order is only 13 days old and backdated to take effect from 4 Sept 2010. What does it mean?
   • mickysavage 6.1

     15 April 2012 at 11:48 am

     It probably means someone dropped the ball.  Well spotted DC.

     Section 29 EQC requires payments to be made within 12 months after “the amount of the damage has been duly determined”.  I guess the Government want to delay the process.  I would be interested to see if some payments should have been made but the regulation validates the delay.
7. captain hook 7

   15 April 2012 at 10:19 am

   oh what a beautiful morning on the MSN homepage.
   their little poll has it that more people support the freezing company and not the workers.
   get off your bums people and let the rest of NZ know that the workers need and deserve your support.
   • joe90 7.1

     15 April 2012 at 11:55 am

     Well someone’s off their bum here in Whangavegas. Every Talley’s product in the supermarket, from the frozen goods through to the meat and kai moana in the chillers, had accompanying flyers asking why would you buy this product and requesting support for the Affco workers with details on how to donate.
     • Te Reo Putake 7.1.1

       15 April 2012 at 12:06 pm

       Hey Joe, did you get to the march yesterday? Fantastic to see hundreds of supporters get the message out on the streets, a real wake up call for the shits currently trying to destroy Imlay’s union.
     • joe90 7.1.2

       15 April 2012 at 12:29 pm

       Afraid not Te Reo Putake, the early boy gets the waves, but I have spent some time with Bill R and the people manning/ladying the Beach Rd picket. Some very determined union members.

       Another detail of note, Affco are in the process of offering jobs to those who’ve been sacked during the last few years. Most of the sackings have been for theft, assault, attendance issues, gross misconduct and drug and alcohol offences including those who’ve been dismissed for being intoxicated on the job. Happy days indeed.
       • Te Reo Putake 7.1.2.1

         15 April 2012 at 12:51 pm

         No worries, I’ve always found Morgan St strangely attractive too! It’s hard to say how many were there, but the first marchers were reaching the  square as the last were leaving Taupo Quay, so that’s two blocks of the Ave full of workers and supporters. It would have to be the biggest demo Whanganui’s seen since the occupation of pakaitore.
          
         Hopefully there’ll be some good coverage in tomorrow’s Chronicle, but I have a feeling it’ll be full of self congratulatory articles about the shift to a tabloid format instead.
          
          
8. jcuknz 8

   15 April 2012 at 10:51 am

   >>>get off your bums people and let the rest of NZ know that the workers need and deserve your support <<<

   Why?
9. Blue 9

   15 April 2012 at 10:52 am

   David Shearer has now been Labour leader for a little over four months (Friday the 13th was his anniversary). To celebrate, there has been a spate of criticism in the media about his lack of profile.

   Whoever was elected leader, they had weeks to turn the sinking ship around, not months. Shearer seems to think he has all the time in the world. He doesn’t. The next election may not be until 2014 but Labour are already looking like they will lose. The most critical thing right now is that Labour does not fall into the same trap it did under Phil Goff, where the media knocking machine gets momentum and after that it becomes impossible to stop. The seeds are there right now.

   The media have had time to weigh up Shearer, and their verdict is in: they are not impressed:

   http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10798848

   http://www.nzherald.co.nz/news-cartoons/news/article.cfm?c_id=500814&objectid=10796296

   http://www.nzherald.co.nz/news-cartoons/news/article.cfm?c_id=500814&objectid=10797731

   http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/will-labour-follow-liberals-116557

   Labour under Shearer is looking disorganised, irrelevant and invisible.

   Stuff has a poll on their politics page at the moment, asking readers who the most effective political party is right now. Unsurprisingly, the Greens are trouncing Labour 38% to 10%.

   http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/

   Something must be done about this soon, or the track to defeat in 2014 will become set in stone. The wheels are coming off National now, and the only thing that could possibly save them and hand them three terms in Government is Labour’s poor performance.
   • Jim Nald 9.1

     15 April 2012 at 11:25 am

     Last time I looked, Labour was doing remarkably well in circumstances they had better not be so contented to wallow ….. just about a couple of percent more than ACT.

     Given the current direction and approach Labour and the new, leadership is taking or maybe not taking, it seems quite appropriate? No?

     /sarc
   • muzza 9.2

     15 April 2012 at 11:47 am

     It’s almost as it if the supposed “left” , has been moved deliberately..

     A bit like a game of chess you might say!
   • Anne 9.3

     15 April 2012 at 11:58 am

     It looks like one of those shoddy polls where you can keep voting by just exiting and re-entering the site as many times as you wish. I think you will find the Young Nats and many youthful Greens with lots of time on their hands are having a ball. The rest of us have better things to do?
   • james 111 9.4

     15 April 2012 at 5:53 pm

     This is new Labour as David calls it ,and we love it!
   • Red Rosa 9.5

     15 April 2012 at 5:58 pm

     Well put. What more needs to be said?
10. deuto 10

    15 April 2012 at 2:01 pm

    Yet again ACC hits the news on privacy matters – http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/6746061/Legal-row-over-ACC-blog

    And no – WO is not involved in this one.
11. Campbell Larsen 11

    15 April 2012 at 7:51 pm

    Cat-astrophic Ch-Ch
12. Dave Kennedy 12

    16 April 2012 at 12:19 am

    In rejecting the Green proposals to extend their MoU, National has clearly indicated how far they have lurched to the right. http://localbodies-bsprout.blogspot.co.nz/2012/04/national-rejects-broadening-mou-with.html

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