Open mike 16/05/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, May 16th, 2022 - 199 comments
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199 comments on “Open mike 16/05/2022 ”

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  1. Jenny how to get there 1
    16 May 2022 at 7:03 am

    Because the German Nazis murdered millions of your people in World War Two, is not a blank cheque you can cash in, giving you a moral authority to murder other people and take over their land..

    Yesterday at the Nakba day rally in Auckland's Aotea Square, much to the dismay of the bloodthirsty tankies, Palestinian and Ukrainian flags flew together.

    Green MP Golriz Ghahraman addressed the assembled crowd and spoke of both Palestinian and Ukraine peoples' struggles against the brutal military powers of Russia and Israel.

    Chants from the crowd,

    "1234 We Don't Want Your Bloody War – 2468 Stop the Killing Stop the Hate"

    "From Auckland to Palestine Killing Reporters is a Crime"

  2. pat 2
    16 May 2022 at 7:26 am

    Chinas property market continues to unwind…

    "In a separate statement, Sunac said its aggregated sales in March and April fell 65% from a year ago due to COVID-19 outbreaks in various cities, and its refinancing and asset disposal plans did not materialise after a series of rating downgrades earlier this year.

    The firm confirmed it missed the Wednesday deadline for a $29.5 million interest payment on the October 2023 bond that was required to be repaid last month, and it does not expect it will pay three other coupons due last month totalling $75.3 million before the 30-day grace periods expire, or pay other senior notes when they become due."

    https://morns.ca/2022/05/15/chinese-developer-sunac-misses-bond-repayment-expects-to-miss-more/

  3. Ad 3
    16 May 2022 at 7:37 am

    Best of luck today Mr Shaw.

    Your ERP is either going to be viewed as Rogernomics 2 or Nuclear Free 2.

  4. Sanctuary 4
    16 May 2022 at 7:46 am

    I scarcely bother reading Luke Malpass in Stuff- he is a boringly predictable right wing Aussie and just another self important twot in the MSM – but this line from his (badly sub-edited) piece today is such a jaw droppingly ideological statement it is worth repeating to a wider audience:

    "…Rogernomics, named after then finance-minister Roger Douglas, was the overall policy suite that liberated the country’s economy from the dead hand of the state, with the goal of putting consumer choices at the centre of economic life, removing distortions, targeting state support and making New Zealand competition though comparative advantage…"

    It tells us a lot about the MSM neoliberal consensus. Stuff, the self-proclaimed champions of establishment liberal identity politics, has no problem employing as its political editor a shill for the neoliberal economic settlement that has entrenched economic inequality in this country. Centrism in a single opinion piece. It isn't a coincidence that Josie Pagani also gets an opinion piece in Stuff.

    And yes, I know it is an OPINION piece. But the MSM can't have it both ways. It can't spend it's time in perfromative puzzlement about the public's loss of trust in their objectivity and also promote such frankly ideological nonsense from it's senior political journalist. Once you read that you'll automatically adopt a partisan position towards all Malpass's other utterances on everything.

    If the Herald exists to promote the interests of the Auckland squatocracy then Stuff exists to promote the views of the radical centre. Both exist primarily to promote the axiom that extreme individualism is the number one principle and defend the economic interests of their particular end of the trough.

    • Belladonna 4.1
      16 May 2022 at 9:15 am

      If the Herald exists to promote the interests of the Auckland squatocracy then Stuff exists to promote the views of the radical centre. Both exist primarily to promote the axiom that extreme individualism is the number one principle and defend the economic interests of their particular end of the trough.

      So how do left-wing commentators and opinion writers like Simon Wilson fit into this characterization?

      I see both left- and right-wing people complain about the impartiality and/or slant of The Herald and/or Stuff

      • Sanctuary 4.1.1
        16 May 2022 at 9:19 am

        Simon Wilson is the fig leaf of impartiality at the Herald.

        • AB 4.1.1.1
          16 May 2022 at 10:57 am

          Bryan Gould concurs. However I think he is too nice in assuming that the Herald even cares about self-respect. You need to already have self-respect in order to care about it – and if you never had it, your not about to acquire it any time soon.

    • Stuart Munro 4.2
      16 May 2022 at 10:31 am

      It never ceases to amaze me that Stuff begs us to "support quality journalism" at the bottom of every article, then it subjects us to third rate biased editorializing like a journalism student destined for a D minus see me.

    • Tony Veitch (not etc.) 4.3
      16 May 2022 at 11:54 am

      the axiom that extreme individualism is the number one principle

      I wonder how NZ would have coped if we hadn't adopted the collective responsibility model during the pandemic.

      Well, really I don't have to wonder, I only have to look at the UK and USA!

    • Incognito 4.4
      16 May 2022 at 2:41 pm

      That wasn’t the mission and goals, stated or unstated, of Roger Douglas & gang?

      The whole piece by Malpass was lazy and weak, an F for effort.

  5. weka 5
    16 May 2022 at 8:04 am

    Just in case you’re wondering where progressive men telling women what they can speak about is going, that’s the statue of suffragette Emmeline Pankhurst in Manchester in the UK. Women were set to gather and speak, men in black stopped them.

    https://twitter.com/bindelj/status/1525884203774132225

  6. aom 6
    16 May 2022 at 8:27 am

    Here is the unequivocal evidence that NZ is Zionist Israeli occupied territory

    After citing MFAT's immoral advice in support of the apartheid Israeli state, the soon to be departed Mayor, Andy Foster decided that Palestinians are persona non grata in Wellington.

    The Stuff report concludes with the following, "The Embassy of Israel in Wellington could not be reached for comment but Zionist Federation of New Zealand President Rob Berg said having the flag displayed on a public building in the capital city would cause distress to Israeli people. “It doesn't help promote peace,” he said, though confirmed that the action in New Zealand in itself would be highly unlikely to have any actual impact in Palestine or Israel."

    Who the fuck cares what the Israeli people or Mr. Berg think. How many live in New Zealand instead of Israel anyway? Once again, a self-appointed spokesperson seems to be pushing the bullshit line that all Jews are beholden to Zionism and Israel and that there is no place in the world that Palestinians are allowed to be recognised or able to live in peace – not even Wellington.

    It is high time the Government adhered to its 'independent foreign policy' line instead of its unprincipled bending to the edicts of other states that do not even share this country's values.

    • Sanctuary 6.1
      16 May 2022 at 8:42 am

      This is what occupation looks like and this is what Israel does – it waits until people are at work then sends in busloads of settlers to steal their homes, and if they object then the Israeli army is called in and shoots the Palestinians.

      https://twitter.com/Issaamro/status/1525100173327728641

      • Sabine 6.1.1
        16 May 2022 at 9:38 am

        Colonisation in progress. I guess it is colonisation that the western nation don't have an issue with.

      • SPC 6.1.2
        16 May 2022 at 10:15 am

        Yeah Hebron is their post East Jerusalem enclave project (denying Arabs building consents in East Jerusalem and evictions attracting a similar crowd of opportunists).

        There is annexation of land to the south. They have a far right wing MK led group attacking Palestinian market stalls in the streets (with IDF protection) – the urban equivalent of attacking village farmland.

  7. Blazer 7
    16 May 2022 at 8:36 am

    Just another day in the…U.S.A=Buffalo mass shootings.

    10 dead in mass shooting at a Buffalo supermarket; suspect arraigned (cnbc.com)

    +

    'At least 10,806 deaths were reported in the United States, including 398 minors, as 119 mass shootings have taken place across the US since the beginning of this year, according to data from The Gun Violence Archive.

    Of those killed in the mass shootings across the US, 937 were minors, while another 8,558 people were injured by gunfire ,which shows an increase in both the number of deaths and injuries from gun violence in the country compared with the same period last year.'

    List of mass shootings in the United States in 2022 – Wikipedia

    119 Mass Shootings Reported in US since Beginning of 2022 – World news – Tasnim News Agency

    • Chris T 7.1
      16 May 2022 at 9:00 am

      Have to admit I was wondering why this particular one got so much attention here, given the population is about 330 million (I think) and the seeming ease they have to buy guns she ain't exactly rocket science that a certain proportion of that many people are going to be nutters, and they are going to have so many shootings/mass shootings.

      I'm assuming the only reason it even made the news here while all the others don't is because he apparently mentioned ChCh.

  8. Blazer 8
    16 May 2022 at 9:17 am

    As smithers would say…'nice win to Ukraine'wink

    Ukraine wins 2022 Eurovision song contest as UK finishes second in Turin | Eurovision 2022 | The Guardian

    Ukraine’s president, Volodymyr Zelenskiy, welcomed the victory, Ukraine’s third since its 2003 Eurovision debut, and said “we will do our best” to one day host the contest in the port city of Mariupol. He underlined “Ukrainian Mariupol. Free, peaceful, rebuilt!”

    • Sanctuary 8.1
      16 May 2022 at 9:40 am

      Let's face it, the Ukraine could have put up a dog barking at a washing machine and they'd have won on the public vote.

      • weston 8.1.1
        16 May 2022 at 11:16 am

        haha your absolutely right sanc ! at first i thought the song title was ' stepania ' !!

      • weston 8.2.1
        16 May 2022 at 1:21 pm

        EU to accept gas for roubles good analysis from Alexander Mercouris in his daily update .Seems the sanctions against Russia have turned out to be a giant stone hefted by the US and the EU only to be dropped on their own feet .!!



        • joe90 8.2.1.1
          16 May 2022 at 2:54 pm

          roubles good analysis from Alexander Mercouris in his daily update

          Did you do any research into the rectitude and credibility of this nitwit, described by his own lawyer as not fully in control of his faculties?

          /

          Alexander Mercouris concocted a web of “tortuous deceit” to convince a client he was pursuing the bogus claim, including forging a Supreme Court judge’s signature, a tribunal heard.

          He even alleged that Lord Phillips of Worth Matravers, President of the Supreme Court, had him abducted and offered him a £50,000 bribe to abandon the case.

          […]

          Mercouris, 51, later told his client he had managed to win her a £983,000 payout, prompting her to rack up debts in expectation of the windfall.

          […]

          Next he told her he had applied for an interim £50,000 payment, then claimed his brother had stolen the whole £983,000.

          https://archive.ph/4TA6p (torygraph)

          https://www.barstandardsboard.org.uk/disciplinary_finding/76984.html

          btw, winners host so Mariupal 2023, here we come!

  9. The Al1en 9
    16 May 2022 at 9:23 am

    Interesting article The office spaces transforming into luxury apartments

    Quite the holistic approach to making rapid changes in the fight to halt/reverse the effects of climate change for not a lot of money (relatively), with plenty of added value.

    Urban remote working frees up office space, significantly reduces commuting with less cars on the road, reducing the burden of public transport for non office workers and school goers who have to travel.

    Rather than rip up the ERA and ruin the green belt around our cities for housing, not to mention the resources needed to prepare, manufacture and make, government should pay to convert the redundant office space into decent sized, minimum 150m2 apartments, selling them to individuals not landlords, at an interest free fixed priced per block, based on a % of income, like a state house for life you actually own for beneficiaries, or just a step on the ladder at a good price. Idea wouldn't be to make the money back, but if you're going to have to spend more to get less, for fewer people, and wreck the countryside to do it, anything back is a bonus.

    • Sabine 9.1
      16 May 2022 at 9:37 am

      i worked in the new Headquaters of Nike in Holland many years ago. The whole complex was desigend to be transformed into apartments by simply removing 'non fixed' walls. Plus a few other environmental goodies that were in use two decades ago.

      It makes perfect sense as most of these place are open plan, and could/ should be transformed but the question to me would be the sound insulation. NZ is not a place known to think about noise before building.

      https://mcdonoughpartners.com/projects/nike-european-headquarters/

      • The Al1en 9.1.1
        16 May 2022 at 9:49 am

        Not being an engineer or architect I wouldn't know, but I'm certain there would be a low cost solution somewhere to minimise or mitigate sound leakage.

        Done nicely and made to be the opposite of the tower block cages I've known, there are a lot of wins possible. Get housing as an issue out of the headlines, signal the equitable way forward the government wants to move forward, all that 'we are one' good feelz stuff, and free up time for them to focus on the hard jobs. :tic:

        • Sabine 9.1.1.1
          16 May 2022 at 9:58 am

          Nike was given a list by the Dutch government of what it needs to do to get a building permit. One of the clauses was that he building needs to be transformable into residential units, that there can only be a limited number of carparks, and that double glazing, insulation are used extensively. Their heating system is interesting, as it is passive.

          As for the blocks, in Europe, France, England, Germany – Plattenbau buildings were used in the 60 to make up for the shortfall of houses and the lack of decent housing. They did not last very long in many cases, some only lasted some 30 odd years before they were destroyed, but they did fulfil a need. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plattenbau

          High density must go up, and fwiw, in NZ we seem to be stuck in the 60/70 as we are building only Plattenbau type buildings when going up, and sadly these buildings will not age well.

  10. Blazer 10
    16 May 2022 at 9:30 am

    'always be sincere…even if you don't really …mean it'!

    budget expectations=Stuff NZ.

    '

    Sharon Cullwick, executive officer, NZ Property Investors Federation:

    'Some relief for private rental home providers so they can help the 25,000 people out of emergency accommodation and into a house. Examples of this include changing the bright-line test back to two years and allowing private property providers to again claim interest as a mortgage tax deductible expense.'

    • pat 11.1
      16 May 2022 at 9:56 am

      Mental health issues have overwhelmed our systems ability to cope.

      • Sabine 11.1.1
        16 May 2022 at 10:06 am

        And Kainga Ora is not protecting its good tenants from its bad tenants.

        Mental health is one thing, letting someone terrorize their neighbourghs is another thing altogether. Kainga Ora is not fit for the job it is supposedly hired to do. Close it down, fire all the clowns there currently employed – include the Minister for that Portfolio for good measure and start from scratch.

        Btw, mental health will not get better in NZ as we are not investing in it.

        • pat 11.1.1.1
          16 May 2022 at 10:15 am

          Kainga Ora is in an impossible situation and expected to perform the impossible….it has to protect tenants from themselves all the while not infringing on the tenants rights.

          We have created the mental health crisis by misapplying reasonable principles…the theory of care in the community was sound provided it was sufficiently resourced (it never was) and there was provision for those for whom it was ineffective (there isnt).

          How much resource can we provide and if the required resource is provided what do we forgo to provide it?

          • Sabine 11.1.1.1.1
            16 May 2022 at 10:30 am

            All we expect Kainga Ora to do is to protect ALL of its tenants and not just some.

            If this would just be one case i would agree, but there are so many of these cases now that clearly there is an issue here in how KO properties are allocated and how KO staff is missing in action or simply lazy and not doing their job..

            So again, take the 'domestic terrorist' out of the property and give that house to a family who will not terrorize the community but will be a good tenant. Send the domestic terrorist to one of the run down motels in which we house law abiding citizens for lack of decent housing.

            • pat 11.1.1.1.1.1
              16 May 2022 at 10:40 am

              And do what with the problematic tenant(s)?….and the public and political backlash of mistreating the unwell and now homeless.

              And as an aside when did a state housing provider become a mental health facility (without expertise or resource)?

              • Sabine …
                16 May 2022 at 10:48 am

                You send the problematic tenant into the motels in which we currently house law abiding citizens and their children. We don't seem to have an issue warehousing decent people in motels for years on end without any help in sight.

                Or are you really advocating that in NZ to get a state hosue you have to become a gang banger, drug peddler, pimp and abusive fuckwit?

                And you might have missed it, but the same crew who runs Kainga Ora, runs WINZ, runs the Ministry of Health, the ministry of business and innovation and gasps runs the government with a full majority in an MMP environment. The Labour Party. The blames lies with them. So if you feel there are not enough resources being spread out by the government to cover both mental health and housing, maybe you write a letter to the dear leader who was gonna do something about child hood poverty (thanks to poor parents) to finally let loose the purse where they only let loose with meaningless words.

                • pat …
                  16 May 2022 at 10:56 am

                  I advocate no such thing as you should well realise….obviously not all KO tenants meet your description but certainly a problematic proportion do….and motels are de facto KO housing in any case.

                  Importantly my opinion of the resourcing of both mental health and housing is preceded by copious evidence from those in the fields that establish the lack.

                  I note that there is no response to the question asked…..what is foregone to make such a provision?

          • Craig H 11.1.1.1.2
            16 May 2022 at 11:27 am

            Agree – wherever they get put, they will be a problem tenant.

            If the landlord owns neighbouring properties, they have an obligation to those neighbouring tenants. If not, they don't. KO (and any other social provider e.g. council housing) would usually come under that as they usually own multiple houses in an area (though not always), while many (not all) private landlords don't.

          • Whispering Kate 11.1.1.1.3
            16 May 2022 at 11:44 am

            "We have created the mental health crisis by misapplying reasonable principles…the theory of care in the community was sound provided it was sufficiently resourced (it never was) and there was provision for those for whom it was ineffective (there isnt).

            How much resource can we provide and if the required resource is provided what do we forgo to provide it?"

            Pat, there was 1.8 billion set aside for Mental Health programmes and what has happened to it. The Department is in crisis and is getting worse by the hour. Its a disgrace how the wrap around services are not being met.

            I have a close family member languishing in a remand centre waiting for court appearances. This person is seriously unwell with mental health issues. This would never had happened if this person had received the wrap around care from a caseworker and been regularly watched. We are just one of thousands of wretched families desperate to get help for our sick loved ones. When I am calm enough there are going to be letters sent to the head of the District Health Board and to Andrew Little lodging a formal complaint who frankly, has been derelict in his duties towards administrating the 1.8 billion. This correspondence will not be answered of that I am sure but its going to be done nevertheless.

            • pat 11.1.1.1.3.1
              16 May 2022 at 11:52 am

              "Pat, there was 1.8 billion set aside for Mental Health programmes and what has happened to it. The Department is in crisis and is getting worse by the hour. Its a disgrace how the wrap around services are not being met."

              Yes, but as I frequently point out money is not a resource….though it may allow you to purchase available resources….the resources are not available.

              One of the reasons the resources are not available is we had determined that institutional care was undesireable….and certainly it was not the solution for many.

              Consider that if we disperse those deemed needing assistance throughout the community and a proportion of those need 24/7 care/ oversight how many bodies, preferably trained, would be required ….bodies, skills unavailable to other needs.

              The numbers are staggering

              • Belladonna …
                16 May 2022 at 1:42 pm

                Well, there are practical alternatives which we could put in place now – without the multi-year investment in increasing numbers of houses or mental health providers. Of course we should be doing both of those things – but they'll take a lot of time to make a dent in the issue.

                However, they tend to be fairly controlling, and a bit one-size-fits all – and don't go down well with the touchy-feely part of the community.

                * Institute all motels (and some apartment complexes) as controlled or restricted housing. Concierge (paid and resident) on site who is responsible for liaising with all associated providers over any issues (crime, mental health, welfare, etc) which arise. Would require a waiver to privacy – because the State (in the person of this individual, and the KO residential complex manager, needs to know).

                * KO should just buy the motels – the transfer of wealth to the private sector over this is just ridiculous (I said at the time of first lockdown they should do this – and they should have got a bargain – since motel owners had no income stream)

                * Restricted housing allows no visitors – residents can leave to visit family, etc. – but no random people allowed in (reduces gang issues, and other problem people). Only residents listed on the tenancy may be present within the complex. Evict non-residents. Trespass them if it's repeated. [NB: this is critical – a lot of the problem people aren't necessarily the residents themselves, but their associates]

                * Collocate together suitable types of residents in housing complexes (i.e. not meth addicts or gang connections next to a family unit).

                * Require parents to have children in school or pre-school, attend check ups etc. [NB: schools/pre-schools should be walking distance – concierge can organize walking school bus, etc.]

                * Require people to take their medication (may need concierge to hold/administer this).

                * Empower security (because the police are just as overwhelmed) to arrest/restrain lawbreakers (violence, intimidation, etc.).

                * Establish a policy of transferring out the anti-social people. Even if it's to a different motel complex. The rest of the community needs to know and believe that action will be swift and effective (i.e. that it's safe to complain – you don't have to endure abuse)

                * Partner with expert agencies (e.g. City Mission) to build accommodation for the 'problem' individuals (not defining what the problem is – but the expression is anti-social behaviour). They have the expertise to administer/run these. KO should give them the money and get out of their way.

                *Admit that the community care model has failed a large sector of the mental health population. Since there is neither care nor community. Bite the bullet and re-establish the secure care that is evidently needed by this sector of society. [This is medum-long term – hard to do quickly]

                Basically a paternal state. You have the opportunity to be in charge of your life, but if you demonstrably can't manage it, we'll do it for you.

                Individuals/families who show they can manage their own lives, can then transition to independent living in existing KO properties.

                Individuals/families who show they can't manage, can also be transitioned back to the managed environment.

      • Belladonna 11.1.2
        16 May 2022 at 10:11 am

        Well – KO seem to be determined to add to the load.
        The mental health of the multiple families, who are, let us not forget, innocent victims here – being terrorized by other KO 'clients', will certainly be deteriorating.

        Triage – the appropriate method of dealing with an overwhelming resource crisis – in this case both limits on housing and on mental health capacity – seems to be a foreign concept to them.

        • pat 11.1.2.1
          16 May 2022 at 10:36 am

          Triage to where?…and by whom?

          • Belladonna 11.1.2.1.1
            16 May 2022 at 11:15 am

            Triage by KO. They already make decisions about housing allocation. Unfortunately, they're not following triage principles.

            And, if you are a danger or a threat to your neighbours (as we have seen in *multiple* publicly reported instances – not to mention all the private ones which never make the papers) – you get to leave the nice KO house/neighbourhood, and be allocated a (much less desirable) motel unit.

            KO have a *legal* responsibility as the landlord (of their other tenants) to ensure that problem tenants are not terrorizing their neighbours (recent Tenancy Tribunal case made this crystal clear)

            https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/kainga-ora-residents-tenancy-tribunal-complaint-after-neighbour-hell-for-three-years/JHLXUDIR4RO72KZKNQRUNNA7ME/?c_id=1&objectid=12515078&ref=rss

            KO housing managers can't be expected to be experts on mental health (and from a privacy perspective, I expect that they don't even have access to any information about the mental health of their clients).

            They are, however, expected by both the public and their other clients, to manage disruptive, dangerous and terrorizing behaviour from their clients.

            If they can't do this (and Poto Williams appears to be thoroughly ineffective in directing them in this area) – then NZ voters will be very tempted to vote for a party who claims that they can.

            • pat 11.1.2.1.1.1
              16 May 2022 at 11:19 am

              Just to be clear, you advocate that KO should evict problematic tenants and it is not their concern if they have no where else to go or if the cause of the behaviour is a mental health issue?

              • Belladonna …
                16 May 2022 at 11:28 am

                It would be nice if you’d actually read my comment.

                Just to be clear. I'm advocating that problem tenants should be transferred to less desirable locations (typically motels).

                KO apparently think it's fine for families with children to be in motel accommodation for years.

                [I'd also advocate for motel unit style accommodation to be much more strictly monitored and regulated – especially for people with mental health and or addiction issues. But that's a different topic]

                It's not the job of the landlord to decide whether the issue is mental health problems or something else.

                You seem to be advocating that people who might have mental health issues should have a free rein to terrorize the neighbourhood with zero consequences.

                • pat …
                  16 May 2022 at 11:45 am

                  "You seem to be advocating that people who might have mental health issues should have a free rein to terrorize the neighbourhood with zero consequences."

                  Not at all…indeed Im advocating that problem KO tenants be evicted, after one or two ignored warnings and engagement with relevant agencies…however I dont view moving to motels as anything other than transferring the problems location having said that motels are effectively KO housing.

                  The question then becomes, if the cause is a mental health issue what is done about the individual….we have barely any residential institutions and those we do have are already overwhelmed?

                  So its back to resourcing …if we are to resource the required what are we willing to forgo?….or are we not willing to forgo anything?

                  The problematic tenants without mental health issues similarly should be evicted after suitable opportunity to reform….however the problem there is what constitutes a mental health disability?

            • Craig H 11.1.2.1.1.2
              16 May 2022 at 11:33 am

              Wherever they get put, they will be a problem tenant. If the landlord owns neighbouring properties, they have an obligation to those neighbouring tenants. If not, they don't.

              KO (and any other social housing provider e.g. council horsing) would usually come under that as they usually own multiple houses in an area (though not always), while many (not all) private landlords don't. KO evicting someone doesn't stop those people being problem tenants, just stops them being problem tenants of KO. There's nothing to stop a problem tenant getting a private property in the same area and continuing to terrorise the neighbours, but now with no recourse by KO or anyone else.

              For people who think that's a theoretical problem, Christchurch has plenty of KO housing in Aranui where the tenants in the private housing in the same area are no better, or worse, but nobody has anywhere else to go.

              • Anker …
                16 May 2022 at 3:35 pm

                Why is it our responsibility to house anti social people (unless they have children)??

                IWhy all the "but where would they go if we boot them out?" Aside from if they have kids living with them (and maybe they shouldn't) in the words of Rhett Butler in Gone With the Wind, "frankly my dear I don't give a dam"

                If they are mentally ill of course they may need hospitalitsation and should be able to be sectioned under the Act, if they are threatening others. Despite what most people think most people with severe mental illness are not threatening and dangerous. If they are psychotically ill, many are too paranoid to leave the house.

                The Govt has to take responsiblity for the mess that is mental health. What they don't seem to get is that it all rises and falls on competent well trained staff who are well resourced and using evidenced based treatments. Re-structuring the health. system is the wrong priority. Somehow they seem to think if they fix the bureaucracy then jolly good show. Well done us. Same with having a Commission Enquiry into Mental Health, re-establishing the Mental Health Commission, yada yada yadh.

                • Craig H …
                  18 May 2022 at 11:36 am

                  If not the state, then a private landlord, who as explained above may have no obligations to neighbours at all, in which case KO could evict someone only for the former tenant to move into a nearby house owned privately and be a worse issue as now nobody can do anything. Aranui is one suburb in Christchurch where this is entirely possible (I grew up there and it hasn't changed much) and there are plenty of state houses and also plenty of private houses with landlords who don't care how loud the tenants are.

                  If the state is not the housing provider of last resort in this manner, they will still be the provider of last resort as Corrections.

                  Christchurch nights can drop to -5, some parts of the South Island can drop below -10 – that can be lethal for someone unprepared for it, especially the homeless. Executing someone by hypothermia via eviction seems disproportionately severe, but maybe I'm just a bleeding heart liberal.

    • Peter 11.2
      16 May 2022 at 10:42 am

      I read the article and wondered about whose job it is to deal with behaviour which might be illegal. (threatening, etc)

      Is Kainga Ora to police illegal behaviour of its tenants? Harassing the neighbours? Fraud? Not having a vehicle WOF? Shop lifting?

      What is described is terrible behaviour and awful for those being harassed. And certainly sounds like a job for the police. The problem is the behaviour not whose house they're living in.

      • pat 11.2.1
        16 May 2022 at 10:49 am

        Think its fairly well established that prisons are pretty much our only mental health institutions now.

      • Sabine 11.2.2
        16 May 2022 at 10:53 am

        The problem is that he police wont come in many cases, if they do show up its after the fact to take notes and appear as doing something, and then they leave without the criminal element so they might as well stay put have a cuppa and a donut and do nothing.

        We currently do not a a good job in locking violent elements up, or sentencing them to anything meaning full, and even if we do that same person will be send 'home' on Home D to continue doing what they did before. Criming and terrorising their community and families.

      • Belladonna 11.2.3
        16 May 2022 at 11:21 am

        A further problem is, even when the most serious of the cases are charged – they are then bailed back to the same address – to continue the criminal and intimidating behaviour, and terrorize those people who've been brave enough to complain.

        The court system is so delayed – that it is likely to take *years* for the case to be heard. And, even then, if/when convicted – they're most likely to have a community sentence and be back in the same address.

        In any case, behaviour should not have to be at a criminal level to be dealt with by the landlord. Fraud, failing to have a WOF and shop lifting, have minimal effect on the nearby residents. Harassment, burglary, drug dealing, intimidation and anti-social behaviour have a huge impact.

      • Craig H 11.2.4
        16 May 2022 at 11:45 am

        In terms of tenancy law, if the landlord owns neighbouring properties, they have an obligation to those neighbouring tenants to provide "quiet enjoyment", to use the legal term, which includes the quiet-ness (or otherwise) of the neighbouring tenants. KO (and any other social housing provider) would usually come under that as they usually own multiple houses in an area (though not always), while many (not all) private landlords don't.

        If the landlord doesn't own neighbouring properties, that obligation doesn't apply with respect to neighbouring tenants as they don't have any.

        There is also a tenant responsibility not to disturb neighbours, but landlords are not required to police that if the neighbours aren't also their tenants (as above). They can choose to (tenancy legislation provides for it), but can't be made to, and there is no recourse for neighbours unless they are also tenants of the same landlord.

        All that said, problem tenants are problem tenants, so KO (or any other provider) evicting tenants just passes it onto other landlords who may or may not be equipped to deal with them.

        This always strikes me as a wicked problem in that no solutions are particularly good from the government perspective because the bad tenants are the root cause of the problem so will be problematic for the state both as landlord and more widely in terms of societal wellbeing, but I wonder if KO maintaining units in more rural areas (e.g. city fringes) for particularly problematic tenants would be the best solution of a collection of bad solutions.

        • Patricia Bremner 11.2.4.1
          16 May 2022 at 1:16 pm

          The real problem is poverty mental health meth and gangs. Almost every story mentions one of these issues. Mental Health has always been the poor cousin in Health. The pandemic shortages both in materials and staff, and labelling continues.

          No real suggestions are out forward to meet these problems, which used to be handled by evictions in the past. These people lived in vehicles or on the street under Paula Bennett's rules regarding meth, which were not science based.

          So any effort to change that has to provide temporary systems while builds are under way. This is then able to be called slums terrorism and other names. No one wants these people as neighbours, so cries of what are …" Police Landlords or Poto or Andrew doing.??? "

          They are running to stand still in a world utterly pressured by covid's supply line problems monetary fall out and "over it" attitudes of "Big Daddy" fix it for us now!! Community means caring for all, not just the deserving. Painful as that is.

          There does need to be a cut off point for bad behaviour, and the case discussed here seems to meet the criteria. However, if there is no easy answer, as the building of homes is slowed by the pandemic. To say people are not trying to improve this situation is a stretch. It is not a situation that is able to be fixed easily, or all those right wing experts would have it sorted by now.

          So concrete suggestions are welcome.

          • Craig H 11.2.4.1.1
            16 May 2022 at 3:17 pm

            Absolutely agree that there is a mix of issues at the heart of the issues in most cases, and KO or any other landlord can't do much about that.

            Also, while social housing providers are often seen as the landlords of last resort, especially the state and council-funded ones, arguably the actual landlord of last resort is Corrections i.e. prison.

          • AB 11.2.4.1.2
            16 May 2022 at 3:54 pm

            The sum of everything that everybody has said is that: the problem is unfixable if we allow it to occur on the scale we do. My only concrete suggestion is to eliminate all financial, food and housing insecurity as a right of citizenship, see what social pathologies remain afterwards, and have well-trained and resourced professionals trying to mop up the residue. Give it 50 years and we might be in better shape.

            • pat 11.2.4.1.2.1
              16 May 2022 at 5:14 pm

              "… the problem is unfixable if we allow it to occur on the scale we do. "

              Somebody gets it…..and the likely timeframe to see it remedied, if ever.

              Meanwhile no one has answered the original question….where do the resources come from?

      • Anker 11.2.5
        16 May 2022 at 3:37 pm

        Excuse me if i am mistaken but don't landlords have the ability to evict tennants, even if it can't be done immediately? Or do tennants just get to choose when and if they leave a rental property

        • weka 11.2.5.1
          17 May 2022 at 9:42 am

          They do, when they have good reason.However KO has an internal policy of not evicting. Where would the problematic tenants go?

          If the issue is noise then getting council involved is another option

          • Anker 11.2.5.1.1
            17 May 2022 at 9:46 am

            Yes understood Weka. It is this internal policy of not evicting I have a problem with

            • weka 11.2.5.1.1.1
              17 May 2022 at 2:50 pm

              I have a problem too, although I don't think the solution is for them to just evict people (where would they go?).

              Swordfish's parents situation was an obvious one where eviction should have happened early on. Whichever government agency should then have stepped up and sorted out the issues with the evicted tenant.

    • Anker 11.3
      16 May 2022 at 1:21 pm

      jImmy this is why my sympathy was limited for Wellingtonians, especailly workers in the capital cries of how bad it was for them having the protesters at Parliament! I realized it can't have been easy, but where were their squells of outrage about the poor people in Kainga Ora flats putting up with this shit, while the landlord i.e the govt did NOTHING………

      BTW I have been wondering how Swordfish has been doing. Anyone know?

  12. SPC 12
    16 May 2022 at 9:58 am

    Observing the changing narrative of a slippery ScoMo rather than merely reporting it …

  13. ianmac 13
    16 May 2022 at 10:10 am

    Anyone know what the Chloe Swarbick allegedly "$200,000 taxpayer funding of a politically partisan puff piece," is all about?

    • roy cartland 13.1
      16 May 2022 at 10:18 am

      Where did you see / hear about it?

      • ianmac 13.1.1
        16 May 2022 at 10:27 am

        I noticed the "story"several times on Twitter from amongst others Farrar and Plunkett. They seemed to be pretty emphatic.

    • Sanctuary 13.2
      16 May 2022 at 10:20 am

      There is a documentary about her made with NZ on Air funding that has got aging misogynists like Sean Plunkett all in a tizz.

    • Sabine 13.3
      16 May 2022 at 10:33 am

      It will be a nice fluff story about a young women who is going to come out as Non binary for a bit of 'most marginalized and vulnerable minority&#039 coinage; just before announcing her co-leadership with Marama Davidson for the Green Party just in time for the Election.

      btw, the person who is going to do this soap is the same that was doing the CHCH movie.

      A waste of tax payers money. If either one of them, Chloe or Marama have any functioning braincells left they will say 'NO, thank you', it would not be proper.

      I do hope that there will be documentaries made of other Politians, also funded by the government in the lead up to the next election, just for fairness sake.
      Not holding my breath though.

      • Molly 13.3.1
        16 May 2022 at 12:01 pm

        "A waste of tax payers money. If either one of them, Chloe or Marama have any functioning braincells left they will say 'NO, thank you', it would not be proper."

        Agree. If any National or Act politician was in this scenario, I would be just as scathing.

      • Anker 13.3.2
        16 May 2022 at 3:41 pm

        " come out as non binary for a bit of most marginalized and vulnerable minority coinage". Lol Sabine! Love your work!

  14. Belladonna 14
    16 May 2022 at 10:22 am

    NZ on Air funding decision

    https://www.nzonair.govt.nz/news/december-2021-funding-decisions/

    Being Chlöe, 1 x 90 mins, Razor Films for Three, up to $199,999. A documentary exploring the political and personal life of New Zealand’s youngest MP Chlöe Swarbrick.

    Questions, I assume, over how partisan the documentary will be (I don't know where you're reading the commentary from)

    Like the one on the Chch shootings which morphed into a piece on Ardern – to similar controversy.

    Should public money be going into documentaries on sitting MPs? Can this be construed as election advertising? (guess it depends when it's released). I know that MPs have to be careful about when in the electoral cycle, they release biographies. And bios (books, that is) aren’t publicly funded.

    • ianmac 14.1
      16 May 2022 at 10:30 am

      Thanks all. 18 months out from an election can hardly be electioneering I think.

      • Belladonna 14.1.1
        16 May 2022 at 11:01 am

        Takes a long time to make a film. The timing would have had it on track to be potentially released shortly before the 2023 election – but (see below) commitment is that it will be released after the election.

        Which addresses the electioneering issue.

      • Jimmy 14.1.2
        16 May 2022 at 12:17 pm

        In that case, perhaps NZ on Air should do a similar $200k documentary on Chris Luxon now as "18 months out from election can hardly be electioneering".

        That would get people on here triggered. But also a documentary on say Grant Robertson could be good too.

        • Bearded Git 14.1.2.1
          16 May 2022 at 1:14 pm

          But Chloe is interesting Jimmy.

          • Robert Guyton 14.1.2.1.1
            16 May 2022 at 1:49 pm

            smiley

          • Jimmy 14.1.2.1.2
            16 May 2022 at 3:00 pm

            Is she?

          • Cricklewood 14.1.2.1.3
            16 May 2022 at 4:20 pm

            I dunno, a doco on Luxons personal life could be quite enlightening.

            • Belladonna 14.1.2.1.3.1
              16 May 2022 at 10:03 pm

              Think that most pollies would reject the possibility with horror – especially if it had any prospect of being neutral 'warts and all' coverage – let alone critical.

              I remember, years ago, watching a doco about several minor candidates standing for an election – it might have been "Campaign" set in Wellington Central in the 1996 election (not certain at this late date – much water has passed under the bridge of my memory).
              But one stand-out for me was that the professional politicans curated their image with great care – it was the amateurs who were open.

            • Robert Guyton 14.1.2.1.3.2
              17 May 2022 at 8:23 am

              A Luxon doco, interesting?

              More disturbing than anything, I imagine; footage from his “hands-in-the-air, brothers and sisters”, church meetings, anyone?

        • Populuxe1 14.1.2.2
          16 May 2022 at 3:05 pm

          If someone submitted a compelling proposal they likely would fund it. NZoA is just following it's process.

        • Anker 14.1.2.3
          16 May 2022 at 3:26 pm

          Nope, we have to question why these people are getting $200,000 to make a film about a current female politician. How on earth can this be justified.?

          • Sacha 14.1.2.3.1
            16 May 2022 at 9:59 pm

            She is an interesting woman who has already achieved a lot. Unlike most of us.

            • Anker 14.1.2.3.1.1
              16 May 2022 at 10:58 pm

              I think it could be an interesting docu and I would probaby have a watch, but only once she is no longer a sitting politician.

              • Robert Guyton …
                17 May 2022 at 8:25 am

                Your absence from the audience will be noted with deep regret, Anker.

                • Anker …
                  17 May 2022 at 10:00 am

                  Oh come on Robert lets stick to the arguements. Do you think it is a good idea that NZ on Air is giving funding for a doco called Becoming Chole when she is a sitting MP. I mean I would have thought there would be discomfort on all political sides about this, even if the movie is shown after the election. Chloe likely has a long career in politics.

                  BTW I agree with all Sabine says on this issue. $200,000 would have bought a hell of a lot of counselling sessions…………..

    • Belladonna 14.2
      16 May 2022 at 10:33 am

      Just found that it's set to release after the next election – so addresses the electoral cycle question.

      https://www.deganz.co.nz/funded-full-length-documentary-to-follow-mp-chloe-swarbrick/

      Director is Charlotte Evans – who has already made "OK Chlöe" – a short doco – which was fairly hagiographic. Guess that's always an issue with doco makers – if they are dealing with an 'attractive' subject (speaking here of political rather than personal attributes), it's hard to be balanced.

      • Sabine 14.2.1
        16 May 2022 at 10:38 am

        The government should simply not fund something like that, or the government should fund documentaries on all Politians – every single one of them, and then we can watch the trailers for these upcoming awesomely interesting movies during the election period.

        And of course this will become the same public shitshow as it was with the CHCH movie which was incidentally being made by the same person who is gonna do the Chloe Swarbruck Fluff Piece.

        • Anker 14.2.1.1
          16 May 2022 at 1:28 pm

          https://theplatform.kiwi/opinions/political-puff-pieces-funded-by-your-tax-dollar

          Plunketts take on it. I am sure the NZ tax payers will be thrilled about this! And the beneficiaries who are struggling to put food on the table, will have some nice entertainment, after they have eaten bread and butter for tea.

          • Populuxe1 14.2.1.1.1
            16 May 2022 at 3:10 pm

            It doesn't take much for you to start sounding like the Tax Payer's Onion, does it. As NZoA funding goes it isn't a huge amount – do you have a problem with state funding of culture in general?

            • Anker 14.2.1.1.1.1
              16 May 2022 at 3:50 pm

              Tax payers Onion? Union maybe.

              I hate wasteful spending. I really do.But I am not against money being spent on culture. I am in agreement with Sabine, we either have movies made about all politicians or none (except of course those who have retired which will give us a historical perspective)

              You will notice I often talk about the need to pay nurses and Dr's very, very very well. All so the care workers who are currently on strike. I have no idea where the tax payers union stand on paying nurses and drs more. But despite what you might think, I am not their mouth piece.

              I am a Labour Party member who has freed myself from having to support their policies unless I agree with them. It wonderful being able to be an independent thinker

              • gypsy …
                16 May 2022 at 7:20 pm

                IMHO, we should not be making 'movies' about any sitting politician, but there is a bigger issue here. The opposition are running a campaign to paint the government as profligate spenders, linking that spending to inflation, and then trying to appeal to the 'squeezed middle'. The amounts are insignificant in the context of total government spending, but articles like this, featuring a photo of 2 cabinet ministers beside a $5,000 O (that will come back to bite them) just fuels the narrative.

                • Nic the NZer …
                  16 May 2022 at 7:56 pm

                  NZs been doing this kind of thing for some time. Exhibit A being 'Were here to help', featuring sitting politician (and self styled perk buster) Rodney Hide, yes, partly funded by the tax payer.

                  I particularly enjoyed the part where Hide tells Henderson that he better not be lying because that would be curtains for Hides credibility to be pushing a tax frauds case. IRD staff told me the story is loosely 'based on a true story'.

                  • gypsy …
                    17 May 2022 at 3:26 pm

                    Yeah there's an element of self promotion in that (Hide co-wrote the book) but the story isn't about Hide, it's about Dave Henderson, and Hide's brief role is played by an actor. So same but different. Either way, these movies/plays should be made after they have left politics, and they shouldn't be getting taxpayer support.

            • Sabine 14.2.1.1.1.2
              17 May 2022 at 9:01 am

              My point is that it should simply not be done. Not for her, nor for anyone else.

              I would enjoy televised series that presents ALL of our dear suits and wanna be suits in parliament, i am sure there are some interesting characters and also interesting locations and with that their vey own needs. That would be a public service, and maybe actually inform the people about the people they actually voting for.

              disclaimer: past voted Labour, Greens, last election was the first time that i did vote for neither of them and personally can't see myself voting for them ever again in the near future.

              We have money to waste in this country, and we waste it on the people that least need it.

              These 200.000 would have better been spend as a donation to Gumboot Friday for some mental health counceling services that the Goverment finds so hard to provide, and hey, i hear we have a mental health crisis.

              Or to fund an emergency doctor or just an axtra bed in that Emergency Department where people wait 27 hour to be admitted to a bed while having a full blown mental health episode, but can't be cared for for lack of a bed.
              Or pay full rent for 8 – 10 years for a law abiding family stuck in a run down motel in dead end town. Or a new grant for a charity that hands out food parcels to full time worker. Or maybe winter clothes for kids that have none. Or OR or

              But obviously what NZ needs the most now is a fluff piece about Chloe Swarbruck, of all people.

              Priorities, the woke liberals in NZ government departments have them.

              • Incognito …
                17 May 2022 at 12:31 pm

                NZ on Air is independent and autonomic. It does not fund mental health counselling, public health, or social housing.

                NZ on Air funds:

                • scripted and factual content for a variety of free-to-air television, digital and online platforms
                • local music and music promotion
                • community and student radio stations
                • local platforms and services like HEIHEI, NZ On Screen and ABLE captioning.

                https://www.govt.nz/organisations/nz-on-air/

                I’m glad to have cleared up your confusion.

          • Robert Guyton 14.2.1.1.2
            17 May 2022 at 8:34 am

            You listen to The Platform?

            Why, in God's name?

            • Sabine 14.2.1.1.2.1
              17 May 2022 at 9:04 am

              why not.

              Or maybe ask Norman Russel why he appears on it?

              But there is no reason why people should not to listen to that podcast, unless of course you might be afraid of being confronted with a point of view that would challenge yours, and that of course can’t be? Right?

              • Robert Guyton …
                17 May 2022 at 9:28 am

                Why not?

                Because Plunkett is a plonker, who rails against nuanced thought, decrying it, "woke", who bullies those callers who don't conform to his blunt, Actoidal world-view and who is relentlessly anti-Jacinda and the present (and future) Government.

                That's why.

                Who needs to listen to that whining pish?

                • Sabine …
                  17 May 2022 at 9:34 am

                  You think Norman Russel is pish? Did the dude loose his Green card? Lol.

                  Or are yo upset that these guys set something up that did not need some tax payers funds like the Chloe Swarbruck 'pish'?

                  hahahahah, funny this.

                  • Robert Guyton …
                    17 May 2022 at 10:37 am

                    Your Russel Norman comment is disingenuous.

                    I'm not upset. I've listened to hours of Plunkett.

                    His work is pish.

                    🙂

                    • PsyclingLeft.Always …
                      17 May 2022 at 11:37 am

                      Norman Russel "could" be pish? …..whoever he is : ).

                      Cant say I've ever listened too much Plunkett…but the small amount I have seen and read….would indeed rate a high pish factor….

                • Anker …
                  17 May 2022 at 9:54 am

                  Well Robert if you read the article about the Chole film you will find Plunkett actually gives praise to Jacinda for her stance on the Chch film

        • Populuxe1 14.2.1.2
          16 May 2022 at 3:14 pm

          Are you suggesting our youngest ever MP, elected off her own merits rather than the list, and advocating difficult progressive agendas like cannabis reform isn't inherently interesting? Or is it, to quote you:

          …a young women who is going to come out as non-binary for a bit of 'most marginalized and vulnerable minority' coinage…

        • Drowsy M. Kram 14.2.1.3
          16 May 2022 at 4:42 pm

          Swarbruck Fluff Piece

          Who is this Swarbruck Fluff fella – any relation to Nadia?

          Haven't watched "OK Chlöe", although imho Swarbrick is inspiring (sooo fluffable), along with Yousafzai, Nakate, Thunberg et al. – young sisters doing it themselves.

          Year 10 pupil Amy Pereira said she was inspired by Swarbrick's attitude to try things and not be afraid to fail.
          https://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-standard/news/91311763/chloe-swarbrick-tells-girls-they-can-do-anything

          In the year since we lost our courageous and kind founding female co-leader, Jeanette Fitzsimons, I regularly wonder how the Greens must have been received in trying to raise the science of global warming 30-odd years ago. I think of how today's young people, born long after scientists began delivering sobering predictions on human's impact on our planet, are still patronised for daring to propose the accepted order of things is not quite all right.
          https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/chloe-swarbrick-youth-protest-is-politics-in-its-purest-form/QPVZ4OB4JTJWZPAT3S2YE6UHAM/

  15. Chris T 15
    16 May 2022 at 11:07 am

    So who is thinking the stupid congestion charge is going to be announced today for Auckland and Welly?

    Call me Mr Dimmest person on earth, but still find it weird the govt controls it and not Councils.

    • Craig H 15.1
      16 May 2022 at 11:51 am

      Like many taxes, what economists think are good, and what the public will accept, are not always in alignment, so will be interesting to see the talking points on it if it does come to fruition.

      Agree that if they are going to introduce it, it should be as an option for councils to consider rather than central government doing it on their behalf, but public opinion of congestion charges is low, so maybe the concern is councils wouldn't use them if they did get introduced as an option.

      • Chris T 15.1.1
        16 May 2022 at 12:11 pm

        Yeah I just find it odd.

        I am assuming the tax is going to central govt and not the actual city councils as well?

        It is just silly.

        • Graeme 15.1.1.1
          16 May 2022 at 1:14 pm

          Any capital works that a congestion charge may eventually fund would be going on roads that are close to, if not 100% Government funded. So makes sense that the funds are Government controlled.

          Councils may think they control arterial roads by in reality it’s a Government show through Waka Kotahi

    • Bearded Git 15.2
      16 May 2022 at 1:17 pm

      ChrisT-From the discussions I heard on RNZ last week the congestion charge has widescale support across the political spectrum. It was rather refreshing.

      Trucking companies in particular have seen the effects in other countries where roads flow much better when a CC is in place.

      • Chris T 15.2.1
        16 May 2022 at 1:28 pm

        I heard that as well.

        But with all due respect this doesn't mean I have to agree with it.

        For a start how are they going to police it?

        I get it in places like London where there are millions of people and worth doing. But we are a small population country and can see it costing more to oversee, than they get back in funding.

      • Chris T 15.2.2
        16 May 2022 at 1:34 pm

        And I should have also said. In my personal opinion.

        We have the whole Covid and places going broke thing going on.

        I am no climate change dehier. I appreciate completely how important it is. But geezes the priorities seem to be screwed up at this particular time with the inflation crisis going on.

        People are having trouble affording to feed their kids atm.

        The timing for this is just dim. But way to lose the next election.

      • Craig H 15.2.3
        16 May 2022 at 3:20 pm

        There's broad support among economists as well, but polls don't seem to show much support of the public for the concept.

      • Molly 15.2.4
        16 May 2022 at 4:51 pm

        For reasons discussed before the congestion charge will hit those with the least resources – who are not loud voices in the political polling or surveying.

        The intention is to persuade people out of private vehicles and into PT.

        When a congestion charge is suggested a few assumptions are made:

        1. That the public transport options for people into the congestion area are accessible, efficient, reliable and affordable.

        2. That the congestion charge will be a persuasive tool for change and not a punitive or exclusive one.

        For central city commuters this might be true. But as you travel further out of the central city, it becomes less so.

        In fact, it is most likely that many Aucklanders live where they can afford to – not where it is convenient. Those with less financial resources will often live further out. The further out they live, the less likely assumption 1. will be true, and the more likely assumption 2. will also be untrue, and will go from punitive to exclusive in some cases.

        For example: Many tertiary courses are not offered in Manukau Technical Institute and South Auckland students have to travel in to get into town. Public transport is expensive, inefficient, and often unreliable.

        What economists and political pundits often forget, is that when options are limited financially many individuals create work arounds that don't require extra money, but may require extra time or effort. Financially precarious households, are dealing with the rising costs of many essentials, housing, utilities, transport and food. Consideration needs to be given to the impact of measures such as congestion charges to ensure that further shocks are not the result.

        "Trucking companies in particular have seen the effects in other countries where roads flow much better when a CC is in place."

        As mentioned before, my partner works for a forward thinking long established trucking company who are already carbon zero. One ongoing conversation with customers that they are having, is arranging specific evening times for delivery to avoid both traffic delays (which results in higher costs for freight), and also often makes the receipt of delivery faster.

        Delivery times are more reliable. Offloading is often faster, and stocking is also because it can happen or be scheduled while the business is not trading.

        • Molly 15.2.4.1
          16 May 2022 at 4:56 pm

          The Auckland fuel tax impacted on lower income households as well, for the same reasons given above.

          Those making the decisions, are those who most likely have some form of paid or subsidised transport option available to them through employment.

        • Bearded Git 15.2.4.2
          16 May 2022 at 5:37 pm

          Molly: Private vehicles are usually more expensive than PT. Fuel is only 40% of the cost of running a vehicle. The next time you calculate the cost of a journey multiply the cost of the petrol by 2 and a half times.

          But of course PT has to be improved massively. Party Vote Green and this will happen.

          • Molly 15.2.4.2.1
            16 May 2022 at 6:03 pm

            That assumes that every trip for a household member is an individual one, with each person going in a car.

            The PT network in Auckland for people who live in the outer regions often does not go where they want to go, has limited timetables, is not reliable and is unaffordable.

            I support PT. When our neighbourhood finally got access, (after the community submitted en masse to a AT survey), I went out and purchased the household Hop Cards. We took a trip into town. The cost of travel for five household members was over $100. The cost of petrol – hybrid and parking was around $30. The time of travel via PT was 2.5-3hrs each way. The time for vehicle was 1 hr, without heavy traffic it can be done in 45 min.

            This is not an affordable option for a family.

            My children studying in Auckland have PT options that will cost approx $60/wk @, but in time will cost them around 4/5 hrs/day. And that is with a 12 min drive to the train station there and back.

            The ones that have the least options for PT will be paying the most – again. Transport networks and planning need to be much better than they are.

            I also think inequality continues to worsen because the decision makers have little regard for those with limited financial choices. The Auckland fuel tax made transport more expensive for those with limited PT choices. The congestion charge will do the same. Often those with limited PT choices will also have limited finances.

            I party voted Green last election. I do not think I will be doing so again.

            I am not convinced by their policy focus, and their proposed solutions.

            • Bearded Git 15.2.4.2.1.1
              17 May 2022 at 8:05 am

              Molly-you are not costing all of the the costs of running a car into your calculations exactly as I said above. With these costs added PT becomes competitive at least in terms of cost. You also do not factor in that PT enables you to relax and to surf the net rather than have the stress of driving.

              NZ is a hugely car oriented country-we need to move away from this. PT needs massive investment.

              As to the Greens policies, which policies do you prefer in the other parties? For instance the Greens are the only party putting forward a workable Wealth Tax, which is the only way that a fairer distribution of wealth will be achieved compared with the current chronic imbalance. I thought you were concerned with the lot of poor people in NZ society?

              • Molly …
                17 May 2022 at 10:26 am

                Bearded Git. I have calculated the extra costs of running a car into the costs. Parking at Aotea Centre at the time was $11. Actual petrol costs were less than $10. I rounded $21 up to $30 to not overstate difference. That accommodates your concerns. I didn't add the cost of the Hop cards as it was a one-off ;: $50.

                Our planning has been abysmal, both spatial and transport. It is lower income households that bear the weight of that failure the most.

                No acknowledgement of time costs on top of financials either.

                These middle class solutions that can cost lower income households disproportionally more, is another small contribution to inequality.

                There will be those who live in great PT areas that won't change behaviour because they, or their employers can carry the charge without effort.

                I do care about those who are struggling.
                I can see problems with proposed solutions.

  16. Molly 16
    16 May 2022 at 1:03 pm

    Government announces a plan that includes: "including $569m for the Clean Car Upgrade, which will help lower and middle-income households scrap high-emitting vehicles in exchange for electric and hybrid alternatives.

    The trial will initially support up to 2500 vehicles."

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/climate-change-plan-high-emitting-vehicles-to-be-banned-electric-vehicle-scheme-under-45-billion-plan/7Y63XNCUS4PZ3OOF5NDJUN5HMU/

    If they are dedicated to helping lower and middle-income households in this way, they would be looking to create a NZ-based battery recycling or reconditioning plant and subsidising that.

    And all those Japanese right hand drive cars that dropped the price of second hand vehicles in NZ when they were internal combustion engines, will be replaced by very cheap EV vehicles too old to be used in Japan, but able to be refitted and purchased here cheaply.

    • pat 16.1
      16 May 2022 at 6:10 pm

      569 million to remove 2500 high emitting vehicles?….thats $227,000 per vehicle.

      Surely that cannot be correct?

      • Poission 16.1.1
        16 May 2022 at 6:25 pm

        The made a ceiling for uptake of 569b,the initial trial is for 2500 vehicles,so they can tweak vehicle type (removal) and replacement.They need a better understanding of the metrics for full carbon accounting purposes.

        Reading between the lines if uptake or the outcome of the trial do not meet sufficient cost /benefit metrics,they can move funding to other areas.That is a logical progression where they can tweak the system,or get out at limited cost.

        • pat 16.1.1.1
          16 May 2022 at 6:37 pm

          Do you have a link to the trials detail and costings….im struggling to find anything

          • Incognito 16.1.1.1.1
            16 May 2022 at 6:43 pm

            snap!

          • pat 16.1.1.1.2
            16 May 2022 at 6:47 pm

            All I have come across so far is this…

            Implement an equity-oriented vehicle scrap-and-replace scheme to make cleaner vehicles and low-emissions alternatives affordable for low-income households.

            • Trial of equity-oriented scrap-and-replace scheme established.

            Government approval in 2022 Trial in 2023

            MOT Waka Kotahi, MSD, vehicle and scrappage industries.

          • Poission 16.1.1.1.3
            16 May 2022 at 6:54 pm

            This is a pre budget announcement,some of the details etc are still budget sensitive as i understand ( excluding some fully funded announcements)

            • pat 16.1.1.1.3.1
              16 May 2022 at 7:00 pm

              As far as I can see the entire document is full of aspirations, trials and to be decided's.

              And they delayed it by months….for this?

              • Poission …
                16 May 2022 at 7:18 pm

                The removal of FF from industrial heat in the manufacturing area has been steadily announced since the last government (some under regional development) Steady replacement across a number of sectors and a national spread sustains the work,and local industry.

                Lots of areas not covered,such as electricity generation,or public transport (excluding bus drivers) where with PT it may be use it or lose it.However PT traffic is down only in AK and WGN,where a systemic regime change post covid may be underway,such as relocation from CBD and work from home.

                They also needed the IMF signoff on friday last

                • pat …
                  16 May 2022 at 7:26 pm

                  Have a look at the actions and timelines…its a joke(a bad one and on us)

                  The concrete actions can be counted on the fingers of one hand and they are largely pre announced.

                  • Poission …
                    16 May 2022 at 7:46 pm

                    The concrete announcements for industry,give a base (and confidence) for manufacturers ie retaining jobs.

                    There are substantive details to come for transport, especially freight of which there may be budget provisions for accelerated depreciation for short haul electric,and biofuel for diesel (wood based) or specialised curtain sider freight cars for rail (where they fork on and off rail for long haul onto truck for local load and delivery)

                    Long read and little meat I agree,but more in the budget.

                    • pat …
                      16 May 2022 at 7:56 pm

                      "Long read and little meat I agree,but more in the budget."

                      You hope….but this was supposed to be our first plan….not a plan to make a plan…the words develop. consider and investigate litter the whole document.

                    • pat …
                      16 May 2022 at 8:14 pm

                      Oh the irony

                    • Poission …
                      16 May 2022 at 8:32 pm

                      be a vacancy at PR in the MOE I suspect.

                      The points that maybe overlooked are there were necessities to involve multiple ministries each with their own agendas,which added complexity.

                      It also required bi partisan agreement as it bounded the opposition out to 2035.

                      Here the loaded pistol was left on the table for the nats to pickup.

                      National's climate spokesperson Scott Simpson said the party was committed to the targets but did not agree with everything in the plan…..

                      …..

                      He said big companies like Fonterra and breweries like DB were profitable enough to be paying their own way and should not be relying on taxpayers to remove coal-fired burners from their business.

                      "There's close to $750b that is effectively corporate welfare … a lot of this is going to be spent on is subsidising big corporates who frankly can already afford it and already should be making decisions to decarbonise their own businesses, to lower their own emissions without the support of taxpayers. Big business can and should be leading the charge."

                      https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/467218/emissions-reduction-plan-political-parties-weigh-in

                      By being broad based across a number of sectors,it does allow involvement (part of the narrative) to be all inclusive.

                      The big sells will be in the electricity sector,and housing.

        • Chris T 16.1.1.2
          16 May 2022 at 6:53 pm

          "The made a ceiling for uptake of 569b,the initial trial is for 2500 vehicles,so they can tweak vehicle type (removal) and replacement."

          Did they happen to mention how much emissions are caused by huge ships bringing 2,500 EVs over from the country they haven't said can supply them?

          • Poission 16.1.1.2.1
            16 May 2022 at 7:05 pm

            The huge ships will produce less emissions,as of the 1st January all international shipping will have to reduce speed ( 1-3 knots on type) to reduce emissions as part of the cop26 agreement.

            Both Japan and China will return to full production over the summer.Japan as more nukes come back on line,and China as covid constraints in Shanghai are reduced( Tesla restated late last week and has 4000 vehicles ready to ship.

            • Chris T 16.1.1.2.1.1
              16 May 2022 at 7:59 pm

              Apologies, but do you have a link to the 4000 vehicles ready to be shipped over on the massive diesel guzzling ships?

              As I doubt there would be enough shockingly young child labour/slavery to mine that much cobalt for them.

              • Poission …
                16 May 2022 at 8:09 pm

                Tesla stated they have resumed production in the china gigafactory ( 1.8 miles long by .5 miles wide).

                i did not say they were coming here only that EV is available from manufacturers,including nissan

                • Chris T …
                  16 May 2022 at 8:19 pm

                  Cool

                  Sorry btw. You are probably right. I am just a bit of a cynical person when it comes to this sort of stuff. Especially when you hear the kid stories, whether totally true or not. I actually think both sides do themselves no favours with their arguments.

                  As I have said before. I think electric cars and the concept is cool as. Even purely as a car nut I am and the instant acceleration.

                  But I also am concious our electrical capacity is a bit crap in some places and really don't want to be dodging uber length extension cords every time I walk to the bus to work in the morning Lol

                  • Poission …
                    16 May 2022 at 8:45 pm

                    No worries,by having a more sustainable uptake with EV,we will not have big blowouts in our BOP,and replacement of ff with ev will at some stage reflect on our fuel imports.

                    Everyone wanted EV and flying cars and all we got from big tech for most of the 20th century was 140 characters (and some with no edit button) and lightening fast methods to diss someone else.

                    The trial will also have hybrids for remote locations.

                    • pat …
                      16 May 2022 at 8:52 pm

                      We recently bought an imported second hand hybrid, low ks uses half the fuel of previous similar vehicle (3.5l/100k combined)…..569 million would buy around 40,000 of these (even with the dealer margin).

                    • Poission …
                      16 May 2022 at 9:40 pm

                      Plug in hybrid? For those with distances to services (medical ,banks etc) of which can be a large part of NZ ,that may be need to they have more charging (and faster) and longer range.

                      There is also an uptake with both corporate leasing and GVT departments so we will also have a second hand market for ev in 5 years.

                    • pat …
                      16 May 2022 at 10:06 pm

                      No..Aqua, no charging but as said half the fuel consumption even with a lot of open road running….strikes me as a much better possibility for reducing emissions if youve got half a billion to throw around…assuming theres stock available, though production was 2 million units over 10 years so there should be a significant number around.

                      Ram raids may increase however….apparently they are prime target for theft.

                    • Poission …
                      16 May 2022 at 10:51 pm

                      More bangs for the buck with a large order across a mix of product,just as well we had a trade delegation in Japan very recently.

                • Chris T …
                  16 May 2022 at 8:25 pm

                  Actually thinking about it I should prbably think about investing in extension cord companies.

                  TBF. It is going to happen so if I owned a company and had staff I would be looking now at organising some sort of power unit/system/sockets so staff could charge during the day, rather than having to overnight.

                  Would be a good recruiting add on.

                  Do see people at first forgetting and driving off still plugged in while new at first, which will be quite funny.

              • KJT …
                16 May 2022 at 8:35 pm

                Those "massive diesel guzzling ships" are the most energy efficient form of freight transport we have. In fact, the bigger, the better. NZ lamb exports to UK have a lower transport emission than trucking lamb across Europe.

                "shockingly young child labour/slavery to mine that much cobalt for them". Yes. And coffee, oil and many other commodities. The pressure on Tesla, and other companies, to be more ethical in sourcing materials, continues.

                We will, of course, ignore the effect of the constant wars and sanctions for oil, https://www.unicef.org/globalinsight/media/2531/file/ UNICEF-Global-Insight-Sanctions-and-Children-2022.pdf. never mind the health issues with young children from hydrocarbons environmental effects. The Environmental Pollution Consequences of Nigerian Oil Boom: The Socio-Economic Calamity of Oil Spillage in the Delta Region on JSTOR

  17. Anker 17
    16 May 2022 at 3:24 pm

    https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2022/05/16/7-30pm-live-tonight-the-working-group-weekly-political-podcast-with-russel-norman-jordan-williams-damien-grant/

    I know some on this blog are not fond of the Daily Blog, but this podcast every Monday nght is fantastic with a good mix of guests e.g Matt MacCarten, David Seymour. So spans across the spectrum of political persuasions.

    tonight has Russell Norman and Jordan Williams and they will be discussing amongst other things the pre budget climate announcements.

  18. Patricia Bremner 18
    16 May 2022 at 3:43 pm

    Brian Gaynor, will be missed. His articles were always thoughtfully constructed and thought provoking.

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