Open mike 16/07/2022

74 comments on “Open mike 16/07/2022 ”

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1. Tony Veitch (not etc.) 1

   16 July 2022 at 6:07 am

   This link was posted yesterday by one of the rw idiots who frequent this site.

   It’s (in my opinion) one of the more perceptive and positive articles about combatting climate catastrophe, and was, predictably, described as a totalitarian hell hole by the poster.

   But BAU will end in killing us all! At least this article offers a glimmer of hope, a possible way out of the mess we’ve created for ourselves.

   https://www.currentaffairs.org/2021/11/what-would-it-look-like-if-we-treated-climate-change-as-an-actual-emergency

   Some selective quotes:

   First, we have to nationalize the fossil fuel industry and the energy companies, bringing them under public control, just like any other essential service or utility.

   We need to focus the economy on what is required for human well-being and ecological stability, rather than on corporate profits and elite consumption.

   Third, we need to tax the rich out of existence.

   Fourth, we need a massive public mobilization to achieve our ecological goals.

   Finally, we need a strong commitment to climate reparations. Rich countries have colonized the atmosphere for their own enrichment, while inflicting the majority of the costs onto the global South.

   This article deserves wider readership and comment.

   A final quote:

   We cannot afford to just sit back and wait to see what happens. We have to capture political power where we can, or otherwise force incumbents to change course.
   • PsyclingLeft.Always 1.1

     16 July 2022 at 7:48 am

     Yes. Its racing towards us…at horrifying pace. Well, horrifying to ..you, me and… how many others?

     For most, the prime concern is fuel the car (not public transport)….buy heaps of food (incl fast food ! ), pay the rent (to landlord/gougers), and watch the rugby, (build a new stadium Fucks sake ! ) Oh also ditch your mask…because : selfish.

     And of course Clustopher Luxon's blowing his Special Dog Whistle for all he's worth…

     Years ago I read an insight…for some (most?) people, the pain of their cut finger…means more than the death of thousands…."somewhere else".

     Anyway…I aint gonna stop doing my best…and trying to change this.
     • Tony Veitch (not etc.) 1.1.1

       16 July 2022 at 8:26 am

       Stalin (I think) said: "One death a tragedy, a million deaths, a statistic!"

       Which goes a long way to explaining why we simply cannot (yet) envisage an end to the human species!
     • Patricia Bremner 1.1.2

       16 July 2022 at 4:19 pm

       1000+ Psycling Left. Always
2. PsyclingLeft.Always 2

   16 July 2022 at 7:57 am

   During the review two interviewees said when they were out in the field and radioed for immediate backup because they were at risk, bully officers failed to provide backup.

   "The interviewees subsequently verified that these other officers had been in radio contact and not involved in any other urgent job," the IPCA added.

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/police-bullying-report-year-on-from-review-new-info-reveals-whether-numbers-have-changed/KSEVKWU3ADSVOFG3RWYYWVR75Y/

   The senior officer went as far as to tell the prosecutor to call the complainant (the girlfriend) and tell her there was "little evidence of an assault," the IPCA report said.

   https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2022/07/ipca-finds-senior-northland-police-officer-improperly-influenced-prosecution-to-withdraw-charge-against-business-partner-s-son.html

   https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-11-07-2022/#comment-1899476

   # 1.2.1

   I still see this as a Top Down problem. As in the toxic culture seeps down from “some” embedded toxic Police. I wonder what happened to the Senior Policeman who “advised” the Prosecutor ?
3. pat 3

   16 July 2022 at 10:11 am

   Back of the envelope thought for the day.

   NZ SMEs are from this month going to have to find an additional 50 million (plus) a month for the next 3 years…..how do we think that additional income will be sourced?
   • weka 3.1

     16 July 2022 at 11:01 am

     details and context would help.
     • pat 3.1.1

       16 July 2022 at 11:43 am

       K.

       The government has lent around 2 billion to SMEs to help them survive the covid demand crunch..those loans were over 5 years with a 2 year grace period…as of this month they have to begin repaying them (if they havnt already, though given the circumstances most will not have)…that equates to around 50 million a month that SMEs will have to find that they previously didnt have to.

       The customers of those SMEs will ultimately be funding it.

       Inflationary? (on top of everything else)
       • weka 3.1.1.1

         16 July 2022 at 11:59 am

         that doesn't sound good. Have MSM been talking about this?
         • pat 3.1.1.1.1

           16 July 2022 at 12:06 pm

           Not that Ive seen….though I expect the likes of the RBNZ are well aware of it, Treasury will have advised on it when the Gov decided to implement the scheme.
           • Graeme 3.1.1.1.1.1

             16 July 2022 at 2:02 pm

             We’re one of those SMEs and don’t see the repayments as an issue. We knew it was coming and have planned accordingly

             We are also incredibly grateful to our Government for the assistance. Right through the COVID emergency the aupport for our business has been sufficient to allow us to continue and transition our business to a more sustainable model in the face of a very uncertain tourism market

             Traditional sources of financial support just weren’t there, and without the Government support it would have got very ugly very fast

             As for any inflationary impact of the repayment, it should be deflationary as the 2 billion is going out of the economy, just what we need right now. I seem to remember Grant Robertson saying pretty much the same thing in one of the 1:00 pm briefings at the time it happened.
             • weka …

               16 July 2022 at 2:09 pm

               how is the 2B going out of the economy?

               What did you do re a more sustainable model if you don't mind sharing?
               • Graeme …

                 16 July 2022 at 10:31 pm

                 Pat dealt with the 2B but it's money that's going to the government presumably to pay down the debt they incurred for the programme, rather than re-circulated in the economy on goods or services.

                 We managed to see out our lease at the end of March and moved the Gallery totally online with a proper full service web store. We didn't have a brick and mortar business post covid, that was bleeding 5-10K / month for the 2 years which support payments assisted but our retirement savings took a huge hit, and the customer dynamic had become so toxic around masks and scanning, along with just plain nastiness, that we were glad to be out of there. Another couple of months of it and it would have killed my partner, she had enough going on with her health without crap from the public, all that kept her going was preparing to get out.

                 The web store we built ourselves on an online platform (Shopify) with strategic advice and some implementation funding through the Tourism Regeneration programmes. We got 5K funding for strategy and another 5K to implement that strategy, but only ended up drawing down a fraction of that because we had the time and ability to do so much ourselves. Came across a lot of people who wanted to spend the funding but couldn't identify an outcome though.

                 The web store is going quite well, we're making sales and Shopify's metrics say we're in the top 20% of stores that launched in the same week as us (there must be some real fizzers in the e-commerce world). Site visitors are more than we had through the gallery, and engagement is probably similar, but you don't have the same interaction that drives sales. That's making it hard for some of our more tactile lines / artists which aren't doing so well online, others are doing as well, maybe better online. a huge learning curve and we're loving it.

                 Cashflow and profitability are much better without the brick and mortar expenses, we're saving money and have time and weekends. But it's hard to get out of the 7 day work habits but we're getting there, kinda…

                 Strategy is to go back into premises once things settle with covid, and we start seeing what the future of tourism holds and can put a value on leased premises. The online store will make that easier. Way too soon to be able to do that yet, think there's more pain for the sector yet. Maybe later this year at the soonest, but more like end of next year.

                 Right now really happy to be at home watching it all unfold. The way covid's going, the Queenstown tourism sector could get really messed up this winter.
             • pat …

               16 July 2022 at 2:11 pm

               Ultimately deflationary….I suspect not so in terms of CPI.
               • arkie …

                 16 July 2022 at 2:16 pm

                 Profit seeking knows no bounds.
                 • pat …

                   16 July 2022 at 2:25 pm

                   We dont know that 2 billion will be removed from the economy…yes the original debt will be repaid but the Government may choose to leave the money in the economy in another form….i.e. not reduce gov debt by the 2 billion paid back…but meanwhile the businesses that have to pay it back still need to earn it.

                   I expect that when the decision was made there was no expectation that inflation was going to be a problem 2 years into reduced demand.

                   Events.
                   • arkie …

                     16 July 2022 at 2:34 pm

                     Well yes, no one has a crystal ball and international ‘Events’ are certainly supplying extra stresses, but such is life everywhere.

                     As Graeme stated above SME’s knew this was a loan, knew this had to be repaid and planned accordingly. That seems to me to be the bare minimum that anyone taking out credit is required to do.

                     Unless you are suggesting a Jubilee? In which case it should be for individual debts not commercial ones.
                   • Graeme …

                     16 July 2022 at 8:06 pm

                     I think there was an acknowledgement by Robertson that Government didn't expect all the borrowers to be able to repay the loan. There's provision to talk about it if you can't repay, and I know of several businesses that have gone tits up and everyone's out of pocket, particularly the owners.

                     But SMEs that were severely affected got a lot of cash from Government by way of Support Payments etc, which generally went to meeting existing contractual payments, like lease and loan payments. Mass defaults wouldn't have been pretty and especially with lease payments would have cascaded badly and easily taken out the economy. Justifiable support for businesses and quite successful.
                   • pat …

                     16 July 2022 at 8:15 pm

                     I make no judgement on the effectiveness or need for the scheme and I have no trouble repaying the loan….the original point remains.
                 • pat …

                   16 July 2022 at 3:14 pm

                   Sorry arkie…my reply was supposed to be to weka, however, im not advocating for a jubilee for SMEs (though I personally would benefit) I am simply pointing out that on top of all the other pressures on SMEs they from this month have to find collectively an additional 50 million a month for the next 3 years….and all that flows from that.

                   As is often noted the cure for high prices is high prices….read recession.
             • Incognito …

               16 July 2022 at 3:23 pm

               I assume that many (?) of those businesses that took a loan under this scheme may not have survived without it. Surely, businesses going belly-up is not good for the economy and wouldn’t this be inflationary?
               • Patricia Bremner …

                 16 July 2022 at 5:37 pm

                 Our unemployment would have been higher. Less tax and so it goes.

                 Pat it is scary to face a debt not anticipated before covid, but would you have coped without it?

                 Has it given you time to strengthen aspects of your business and pivot if you needed to?

                 Did it help cashfow, and are you now building that into your costs? Yes some inflation involved, but what would have been without it?

                 People have accepted we need to pay more to give people a better standard of life and to cope wth the stresses of covid.

                 People are making home more attractive, spending savings on what they see as essential to survive then thrive and at the same time build in a premium for borrowing and climate adjustments. You are not alone.
                 • pat …

                   16 July 2022 at 6:26 pm

                   frankly it made no difference to my situation…like many I accepted it as I had no idea how the pandemic and its impact on the economy was going to play out. I'll also add my situation is not typical.

                   None of which changes the fact that there is 50 million additional dollars a month now needed within the SME sector.
             • Sabine …

               16 July 2022 at 9:44 pm

               ditto.
4. ianmac 4

   16 July 2022 at 10:23 am

   I read Bowalley this morning. Rings a bell regarding Woke and Civil War. But hard to connect the dots re NZ.

   "But there is one thing they will not tolerate: losing status in a place they believe is theirs. In the 21st century, the most dangerous factions are once-dominant groups facing decline.”

   Think the rise of Trumpism and in NZ the Antivax crowd.

   https://bowalleyroad.blogspot.com/2022/07/rumours-of-civil-war.html
   • weka 4.1

     16 July 2022 at 11:11 am

     interesting read, thanks. Important to look at the other factions in NZ especially the loose collection of 'freedom' protest movements. Groundswell, the anti-mandate protests, rising white supremacy. In all of that, it's the people yet to be radicialised one way or the other that concerns me. The left/liberals appear to think that they can force people to like their values and beliefs. I don't believe this is true, and the biggest progress we could make at this point is how to engage with people who think differently from us and learn how to work with them.
     • Molly 4.1.1

       16 July 2022 at 11:29 am

       "and the biggest progress we could make at this point is how to engage with people who think differently from us and learn how to work with them."

       I posted this approach a couple of weeks ago, but don't know if you saw it. It was the process used in 1971 to resolve a school provision issue between a prominent black rights activist, and a Ku Klux Klan leader.

       https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2019/04/05/ann-atwaters-amazing-rise-poverty-teen-pregnancy-best-enemies-stardom/

       You would expect many of those on the left to possess such skills and be able to facilitate similar processes. However, I think those skills may have been undervalued and lost.

       What needs to come first, is the desire to engage respectfully.

       There seems little evidence that this exists.
       • weka 4.1.1.1

         16 July 2022 at 11:43 am

         about to have a read, here's a free access version

         https://archive.ph/BPV6C
         • Anker 4.1.1.1.1

           16 July 2022 at 2:11 pm

           Really moving reading about this. brought a tear to my eye. Thanks for posting Weka
       • weka 4.1.1.2

         16 July 2022 at 11:59 am

         good read. Both sides needed to change their approach, yeah?

         would love to know what happened when they met with the kids. Have you watched the film?
         • Molly 4.1.1.2.1

           16 July 2022 at 4:21 pm

           Yes, on Netflix at the moment.

           Had watched a documentary which had Ann Atwater and Claiborne Ellis on it a while ago and remembered the story.

           The man called in to facilitate the charette is worth researching too:

           https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/the-inherent-value-of-a-charrette-a-discussion-with-bill-riddick

           He's written a handbook of the process:

           https://www.amazon.com/Charrette-Handbook-Bill-Lennertz/dp/1611901472
       • Patricia Bremner 4.1.1.3

         16 July 2022 at 5:42 pm

         I think the recent work with marginalised groups was aimed at this, but "Soft on crime" is the meme which often derails it.
         • Mollyt 4.1.1.3.1

           17 July 2022 at 3:07 am

           I think this is different. You are working with groups in opposition.

           The work with gangs is analysis and solution oriented.
           • weka 4.1.1.3.1.1

             17 July 2022 at 10:11 am

             username typo
             • Molly …

               17 July 2022 at 12:52 pm

               Thanks, late night phone fat finger syndrome.
   • Muttonbird 4.2

     16 July 2022 at 4:42 pm

     I read it, and I couldn't get past the fact that one of the most well known civil wars, the American Civl War, is described like this:

     The central cause of the war was the status of slavery, especially the expansion of slavery into territories acquired as a result of the Louisiana Purchase and the Mexican–American War. On the eve of the Civil War in 1860, four million of the 32 million Americans (~13%) were enslaved black people, almost all in the South.

     The practice of slavery in the United States was one of the key political issues of the 19th century. Decades of political unrest over slavery led up to the Civil War. Disunion came after Abraham Lincoln won the 1860 United States presidential election on an anti-slavery expansion platform. An initial seven southern slave states declared their secession from the country to form the Confederacy.

     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War

     I don't know a lot about it but presumably the super faction in that case is Lincoln and the Union demanding an end to slavery.

     We'd all agree I hope that the American Civil war was inevitable and necessary because the Confederacy seceded and thankfully they and their ideologies were largely defeated.

     What does Chris Trotter expect us to do in the case of New Zealand, not progress on Treaty partnership because it might offend the racists?

     You can't placate these idiots. Best to make the changes and they will fall into line.
     • RedLogix 4.2.1

       17 July 2022 at 12:20 pm

       The crucial difference between the North and the South was that the economy of the plantations was essentially still pre-industrial – and like all such societies throughout history slavery was a regrettable but necessary part of life.

       The northern states by contrast were too cold for the plantations and were compelled to industrialise in order to grow. And in that context the chattel slavery of the south was not necessary – burning coal in boilers replaced the raw muscle power of slaves very effectively.

       It is unnecessary to introduce modern moral judgements into this. The US Civil War is best thought of as a conflict between two economic systems, one rooted in the old agricultural, sunshine based economies – and a new fossil fuel based one about to replace it.
       • Muttonbird 4.2.1.1

         22 July 2022 at 8:50 pm

         You call for us not to judge Confederates because they were too agricultural to know any better.

         Future generations of Kiwis might call not to judge Groundswell & Co. for the same reason.
       • Stuart Munro 4.2.1.2

         22 July 2022 at 9:41 pm

         I read a different explanation – that wages were suppressed in the South, by the availability of a cheaper alternative. This left little incentive for the kind of development that craftsmen had in the North.

         Pretty sure it was here – sorry I don't recall the page.
         • RedLogix 4.2.1.2.1

           22 July 2022 at 10:33 pm

           Or you could equally argue that by industrialising the Northerners were making labour far more productive – and raising wages by comparison to the South.

           I rest my argument on the simple observation that in pre-Industrial times almost all expansive societies depended on chattel slavery to succeed – because the only sources of energy available to them were essentially muscle power or burning wood or charcoal. And while domesticating animals like horses or cattle harnessed lots of useful power in a rural setting – anything indoors or complex needed humans to accomplish. The problem was not so much economic as thermodynamic.

           By contrast once a society was able to harness steam power and to mechanise it – essentially the primal forms of automation – chattel slavery within several generations disappears and never returns.
           • Muttonbird 4.2.1.2.1.1

             23 July 2022 at 12:37 pm

             Industrialisation in the South in the form of the cotton gin resulted in an explosion of slave labour.

             The invention of the cotton gin caused massive growth in the production of cotton in the United States, concentrated mostly in the South. Cotton production expanded from 750,000 bales in 1830 to 2.85 million bales in 1850. As a result, the region became even more dependent on plantations that used black slave labor.

             While it took a single slave about ten hours to separate a single pound of fiber from the seeds, a team of two or three slaves using a cotton gin could produce around fifty pounds of cotton in just one day. The number of slaves rose in concert with the increase in cotton production, increasing from around 700,000 in 1790 to around 3.2 million in 1850.

             Because of its inadvertent effect on American slavery, and on its ensuring that the South's economy developed in the direction of plantation-based agriculture (while encouraging the growth of the textile industry elsewhere, such as in the North), the invention of the cotton gin is frequently cited as one of the indirect causes of the American Civil War.

             https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotton_gin
             • RedLogix …

               23 July 2022 at 12:58 pm

               For the first generation of cotton gins this would be true – but very quickly they became more sophisticated and mechanised, needing less and less labour to run. Modern textile machinery is almost completely automated to an astonishing extent. No slaves needed to operate them – indeed it will usually be skilled and rather well paid operators and maintenance techs.

               The transition to industrialisation was complex and had many moving parts running on different timelines – and the resulting social and economic shifts were turbulent. But once you have gotten through it, no-one sane wants to revert back to the previous conditions.
               • Muttonbird …

                 23 July 2022 at 3:24 pm

                 Ok. I thought for a moment you were saying industrialisation ended slavery, but I pointed to an example where industrialisation actually increased slavery.

                 Also, Victorian Britain during the industrial revolution was about as exploitative of labour as you can get in modern times. Ever read Dickens?

                 It is not industrial revolution which ends practices like slavery and exploitation, it is social revolution.
                 • RedLogix …

                   23 July 2022 at 3:36 pm

                   I thought for a moment you were saying industrialisation ended slavery, but I pointed to an example where industrialisation actually increased slavery.

                   For a period yes – but the key to understanding slavery is that yes it harnesses muscle power – but unlike domesticated animals it also harnesses intelligence. So as I explained above the first generation of primitive machines did increase slavery for a period, but then very quickly after that it was eliminated once their mechanisms became more sophisticated and required less labour to run.

                   Modern highly automated textile machines requiring no direct labour – and certainly no slaves.

                   It is not industrial revolution which ends practices like slavery and exploitation, it is social revolution.

                   So why then did 'social revolution' only occur after the industrial revolution? You had 10,000 years of known history for your social revolution to eliminate slavery – but either it never happened or in those few locations where it did fall out of favour, it never stuck for one reason or another.
                   • Muttonbird …

                     23 July 2022 at 4:21 pm

                     1. The Wikipedia article I linked to says the cotton gin caused a massive increase in slave numbers from 700,000 in 1790 to 3.2 million in 1850. On the eve of the US civil war in 1860, 4 million of the 32 million inhabitants were enslaved (13%). When was it the more sophisticated machines eliminated slavery?
                     2. I imagine because the industrial revolution accelerated exploitation for private profit, as shown in the example of the cotton gin. Industry bosses would have carried on were it not for the demands of social conscience.

                     I know the point you are trying to make, that it is businessmen and engineers responsible for ending all the world’s ills.

                     I’m saying it social and political movements just like the ones Trotter is decrying in the article ianmac posted @ 4.
                   • RedLogix …

                     23 July 2022 at 4:27 pm

                     The article you linked to answers your question.
5. joe90 5

   16 July 2022 at 1:04 pm

   Blame whoever you like for high fuel prices but oil companies know demand for their product is waning.

   https://twitter.com/climate/status/1546955682225819648
6. Barfly 6

   16 July 2022 at 1:28 pm

   If Ian Foster is still All Black Coach next year please, please schedule the election before the Quarter Finals start.

   
   • Patricia Bremner 6.1

     16 July 2022 at 5:51 pm

     1000+ Barfly.
7. joe90 7

   16 July 2022 at 2:23 pm

   Masks and filtration work.

   "Up to twelve times less risk of contamination in the classroom if there is air purifier" If there is an air purifier in the classroom, the chance of a child infecting another child with the coronavirus decreases by a factor of twelve.

   This is evident from the first results of the project of engineer Bert Blocken (KU Leuven / TU Eindhoven), virologist Marc Van Ranst (KU Leuven) and Leen Peeters (Th! Nk E), in which air purifiers were placed in classrooms. Blocks gives the concrete example of a class with 25 students. If an infected student airborne the other 24 students in a class without an air purifier, he would only infect two if the class is equipped with a filter.

   The engineer bases this calculation on an internationally recognized formula that determines the risk of infection. In order to be able to assess the risk of contamination with and without air purifiers even more accurately, additional data is needed, Blocken emphasizes.

   The project therefore runs until the end of December this year. A total of 100 schools participate: 47 in Flanders, 3 in Wallonia and 50 in the Netherlands. A total of one thousand classrooms are monitored: 500 received a filter, 500 did not.

   google translation

   https://www.hln.be/wetenschap-en-planeet/tot-twaalf-keer-minder-risico-op-besmetting-in-de-klas-als-er-luchtreiniger-is~a82b2594/

   The Belgian/Dutch Air purification in the classroom project in English.

   https://www.aircleaningintheclassroom.eu/
   edit:

   We need to protect youngsters if we’re to break the cycle.

   https://twitter.com/chrischirp/status/1546907336526237698
   https://twitter.com/chrischirp/status/1546907353437585408

   https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1546907336526237698.html
   • joe90 7.1

     16 July 2022 at 2:50 pm

     Can we have ads like this?

     https://twitter.com/JohnSnowProject/status/1546245019702640641

     https://johnsnowproject.org/
   • Rosemary McDonald 7.2

     17 July 2022 at 11:23 am

     Ah. Marc Van Ranst. Famous he is as that guy hired to scare the Belgian population into compliance during the 2009 H1N1 epidemic. Cold, calculating and deeply cynical bastard who boasts about the importance of timing and the imperative of gaining and exploiting 100% capture of mainstream media.

     A proud Big Pharma shill…he heavily promoted the new vaccine, and he jokes in this speech how many people protested that the new vaccine was unsafe and the pandemic response was over egged.

     However….IN MARCH, 2012 A SIGNIFICANT INCREASE in the rate of childhood narcolepsy associated with the influenza vaccine Pandemrix (GlaxoSmithKline) was reported in Finland.1 ….

     but …

     ...the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control commissioned two reports to investigate the rates of narcolepsy in Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Italy, France, the Netherlands, Norway and the United Kingdom. The report concluded that:2

     1. There was no increase in the rates of narcolepsy due to the 2009 pandemic itself
     2. An increase in the rate of childhood narcolepsy in Finland and Sweden had occurred with Pandemrix vaccination
     3. There was no detectable association between influenza vaccination and childhood or adult narcolepsy in the Netherlands, Italy, the United Kingdom, Norway* and Denmark**
     4. A significantly increased risk of narcolepsy in adults, associated with Pandemrix vaccination did occur in France, although the risk of selection bias could not be excluded. This result should be interpreted with caution and is being investigated further. https://bpac.org.nz/bpj/2013/april/h1n1-vaccination.aspx

     Despite inconsistencies across age groups and countries that tended to suggest the risk of childhood narcolepsy associated with Pandemerix was exaggerated, this vaccine is no longer given to under 20 year olds.

     Van Ranst's contemptuous manipulation of the Belgian population during the 2009 epidemic, his overweening ego and his smug demeanor actually created a fertile breeding ground for a lack of trust in the responses to the current shit-show. People have long memories.

     As is typical of such persons…he hasn't learned from his past blunders.
     • weka 7.2.1

       17 July 2022 at 11:31 am

       what's the connection between Joe's tweet and Marc Van Ranst?
       • Rosemary McDonald 7.2.1.1

         17 July 2022 at 12:50 pm

         Van Ranst is one of the folks involved in the 'Air Purifiers in Schools' project.

         With his unashamed connections to Those Who Profit from Pandemics, I'd be suspicious of any project he is involved with.

         And while we're on the topic of Pure Air….how on earth did we humans survive the caves? And smoked filled earth lodges through winter?

         Are we not supposed to be evolving?
         • Sacha 7.2.1.1.1

           17 July 2022 at 12:55 pm

           We died at 30.
         • weka 7.2.1.1.2

           17 July 2022 at 12:59 pm

           ok, so what's the connection between the Air Purifiers in Schools project and Joe's tweet?

           Have you spent much time cooking over open fires or inside on smokey fires? It's hard on the lungs, eyes and skin, which improves with ventilation. Can't see the connection here either. Smoke and viruses are completely different challenges to the human body.
           • Rosemary McDonald 7.2.1.1.2.1

             17 July 2022 at 5:42 pm

             Marc Van Ranst.

             Its his name that leapt out at me when I scanned joe90's post. I'm pretty sure the expression 'mind-fuckery' was invented to describe his (Mr Van Ranst's) tactics during the 2009 pandemic. Some folks might think that the circumstances warranted such callous and unethical manipulation of the population, but it had such a negative effect at the time that it effectively (and ironically) inoculated a sizeable portion of the population against such campaigns. He did more harm than good (in some peoples opinion) with respect to uniting the nation against a killer virus. Folks don't like being manipulated and don't enjoy being treated like fuckwits. Unless they're of very nervous constitutions and fear has incapacitated their thought processes.

             For him to speak as he did at the Chatham House gig in early 2019 … fwiw I found it almost obscene. A person with such obvious deep disdain of the population should not, in my opinion, be in charge of setting the tone and rallying the troops in the face of a national or worldwide health crisis. Yet there he is.

             And speaking of inappropriate message delivery, there's another 'scientist' with a seeming fixation for treating the population like infants (and acting like a dork)…

             
             
             

             …that has stepped up to terrify us out of breathing.

             https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/in-depth/470690/whose-breath-are-you-breathing

             After that painful little effort you'd think a performer scientist would quietly fade away into the mists. Or the smoke. But no…here he is telling us that there's almost certain death or disability in every particle of someone else's breath we may inhale.

             For goodness sakes. We human beings have been doing this cohabiting and breathing thing for eons. Rather than population annihilation we have a planet bulging at the seams. Metaphorically speaking. Surely we can collate and process the knowledge gathered over this time to issue some simple and suitably non-scary advice.

             1. Open the windows and doors and let the fresh air circulate. In your home, your workplace, in a vehicle.
             2. Cover coughs and sneezes you dirty buggers. Don't do that disgusting hoick and spit thing so beloved of sportspeople. And as for the blowing snot forcibly from the nostril onto the footpath or playing field….off with his head!!
             3. If you feel you are at risk from Te Virus, or any virus, or any other nasty pathogen, then for heaven's sake wear a mask. Wear two. Mount a fan on your head to force the breath of others away from yourself. Wear gloves and goggles and a full body condom if that will make you feel safe.

             But for the Goddess's sake…don't force healthy folk to do likewise.

             Our immune systems are more efficient than we have been led to believe. Let the healthy get on with their lives. Let the children and young people breathe the air and exercise their immune systems. Or is the plan to actually weaken the population?
             • weka …

               17 July 2022 at 7:08 pm

               ok, so no connection between Joe's tweet and Marc Van Ranst other than something obscure about some dude you don't like.

               Open the windows and doors and let the fresh air circulate. In your home, your workplace, in a vehicle.

               This more than anything tells me you are way off base. We're getting regular snow on the hills and heavy frosts this winter. Suggesting that opening windows and doors is a replacement for masks and filtration is daft.
               • RedLogix …

                 17 July 2022 at 7:19 pm

                 Heat Recovery Ventilation Systems

                 MHRV delivers outside filtered fresh air into your building without creating uncomfortable drafts and mitigates excessive demand on your heating and cooling systems.

                 • The health benefits to the occupants cannot be understated.
                 • Protects your internal building and furnishing investment.

                 Modern airtight buildings need to ventilate to remove moisture, CO2 and dirty air more than ever before. For those who have investigated ventilation, understand that MHRV is not only the best option to ensure a clean environment, but also in achieving thermal comfort

                 The incoming air is filtered before it is introduced into the buildings. MHRV has two airflows (supply & exhaust) that pass one another parallel within the heat-recovery heat exchanger without mixing physically. The heat from "stale" extracted outgoing air is transferred to the "fresh" air introduced from outside.

                 The overall MHRV process exhausts moisture laden air from wet rooms such as bathrooms, kitchen, laundries and supplies fresh air into all habitable living areas and bedrooms. Thereby replacing the need for independent bathroom and laundry extraction fans.

                 I put an early version of one of these into one our rental units 20 years ago as an experiment. While I was local and able to service the filters it worked really well, but I turned it off when we came to Aus.

                 Basic systems are not terribly expensive and a tiny fraction of the total build cost. Essentially they allow you to 'open the windows' and get fresh air into the dwelling – without freezing your arse off.
             • Incognito …

               17 July 2022 at 7:47 pm

               In other words, you flip your lid at a research project that is still in progress in Belgium and the Netherlands aimed at reducing Covid-19 infections in classrooms through air purification because you recall something one of the three core members may have said/done in 2009.

               https://www.aircleaningintheclassroom.eu/over [in English]

               And you flip your lid at an aerosol chemist from Auckland who’s trying to inform and educate us about the air we breathe. Are there no bounds to your bias and negativity and have you lost all sound perspective on causes that you choose to be upset by?

               Have you ever seen the crap (aka soot) that they trap in filters in those measuring stations in downtown Auckland to measure air pollution? The outside air is not as ‘fresh’ as you seem to think it is.
         • joe90 7.2.1.1.3

           17 July 2022 at 1:24 pm

           And while we're on the topic of Pure Air….how on earth did we humans survive the caves? And smoked filled earth lodges through winter?

           We developed respiratory diseases.

           Here, we have argued that the extensive changes to human ecology and unprecedented physiological consequences brought about by the controlled use of fire in the Pleistocene created ideal conditions for the emergence of TB. It is possible that during this period of significant ecological and social change, range extensions leading to the consumption of novel food sources and altered energy requirements increased exposure of early humans to the natural reservoir of ancestral MTBC, likely the soil. This increased exposure brought about an increasing number of infections and stuttering transmission chains, both of which provided new opportunities for within-host adaptive evolution. Coupled with increasing host-susceptibility to mycobacterial infection attributable to biomass smoke-induced lung damage and the increased opportunities for transmission brought about by the developing social culture that fire use encouraged, we hypothesize that the MTBC precursor evolved an R0 greater than unity relatively quickly, almost guaranteeing MTBC's emergence as a specialized human pathogen.

           https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1603224113

           Histological assessment of the lungs of ancient human mummies has shown that anthracosis was a regular disorder in many ancient societies, including the Egyptian, Peruvian, and Aleutian. The only human mummy recovered from ancient Rome (the so-called Grotta Rossa mummy) shows severe anthracosis despite the young age of the person at the time of death.

           Thus, indoor pollution produced chronic reduction of the function of the ciliated respiratory epithelium with an increase in the incidence of inflammatory disease of the pulmonary tree. Therefore, the idea that air pollution and its effects is an exclusively modern phenomenon is probably incorrect.

           https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(05)71971-1/fulltext
         • Sacha 7.2.1.1.4

           17 July 2022 at 1:24 pm

           Van Ranst is one of the folks involved in the 'Air Purifiers in Schools' project.

           In NZ?
       • joe90 7.2.1.2

         17 July 2022 at 8:30 pm

         what's the connection between Joe's tweet and Marc Van Ranst?

         There's no connection. Just the usual extremist fuckery.

         In the last months of 2020, several Flemish newspapers also published articles about Van Ranst’s 2019 lecture, commenting on how the video corresponds to how he managed communication in the event of a new health crisis.

         Mid-December, former president of the Flemish extreme-right Vlaams Belang party, Filip Dewinter, posted a compilation video with excerpts from Van Ranst’s conference in London.

         […]

         What actually happened?

         On 22 January 2019, Van Ranst took part in a conference of the “Centre on Global Health Security” at Chatham House in partnership with the European Scientific Group on Influenza (ESWI).

         The conference was held “to mark the 100th anniversary of the influenza pandemic and to discuss future challenges,” Chatham House told RTBF. “It was a full-day event with guest speakers, including Marc Van Ranst, who spoke about communication in the event of a pandemic.”

         In his speech, which lasted just over 23 minutes and can be watched in full here, Van Ranst explained how he managed crisis communication during the outbreak of the swine flu in 2009.

         Back then, the authorities were very concerned about the swine flu – the H1N1 virus – and they took great precautions, including the mass purchase of vaccines. However, the announced epidemic proved to be much less severe than initially feared.

         In front of an audience of experts, Van Ranst explained how he made sure he was the reference point for various media during that period, using the slogan “one voice, one message.”

         “You have to be omnipresent, the first day or days,” he said. “In order to attract the attention of the media, you make an agreement with them: you will tell them everything, and if they call you, you pick up the phone.”

         He explained that, by doing so, there will be maximum coverage, and the media will not look for alternative voices. “If you do that, it will be much easier to convey the message.”

         https://www.brusselstimes.com/155486/how-to-sell-an-epidemic-a-marc-van-ranst-conspiracy-theory-explained-chatham-house-pandemic-vlaams-belang-h1n1
         • Incognito 7.2.1.2.1

           17 July 2022 at 8:33 pm

           There’s no connection. Just the usual extremist fuckery.

           QFT
     • Incognito 7.2.2

       17 July 2022 at 9:11 pm

       Falling over yourself to shoot a messenger while failing to do the research, again, because you’ve already found enough ammunition to blow the other sucker out of the water, metaphorically speaking.

       Pandemrix (Pandemic Influenza Vaccine), suspension for injection
       GlaxoSmithKline (NZ) Ltd
       Consent is given subject to the following restriction:
       The vaccine may only be marketed, or distributed in accordance with the directives contained in the current version of the New Zealand Influenza Pandemic Action Plan.

       https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/profs/riss/restrict.asp

       An association was found in 2010 between narcolepsy and one H1N1 pandemic vaccine (Pandemrix, an adjuvanted vaccine not licensed or used in New Zealand). Data from various European countries support a temporal link.[118, 119, 120] The onset of narcolepsy may be confounded by other factors, such as genetic predisposition, A(H1N1)pdm09 influenza and/or other environmental factors.[121, 122, 123] A 2018 systematic review found that although the risk of narcolepsy type 1 increased in association with this particular vaccine, it remains a rare disease and the benefit of the influenza vaccination outweighs the risk.[124] [my italics]

       https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/immunisation-handbook-2020/11-influenza

       The investigations led to a vaccine Pandemrix, that featured a specific adjuvant, which is a means to enhance the impact of the vaccine. It turned out that the vaccine was working as a trigger for young people in Scandinavia who had a genetic predisposition to narcolepsy.

       https://www.auckland.ac.nz/en/news/2022/01/24/global-guardian-for-vaccine-surveillance.html
8. Sacha 8

   16 July 2022 at 8:25 pm

   Astute as ever.

   https://twitter.com/lailaharre/status/1548165963484647424
9. joe90 9

   16 July 2022 at 8:39 pm

   lol

   https://twitter.com/LouisHenwood/status/1548047108363628548
10. SPC 10

    16 July 2022 at 10:20 pm

    Some comments do not age well. This from well known sports expert on Kiwblog, Kimbo. On the Irish Rugby TV You Tube site. On the comments section of the first test highlights.

    Kimbo

    13 days ago

    You can clearly see NZ is the stronger and faster team. Ireland competitive but not close contest.
    • Barfly 10.1

      16 July 2022 at 11:04 pm

      "Yeah that aged like milk"
      • SPC 10.1.1

        16 July 2022 at 11:12 pm

        The key thing being Ireland were the better "team". They were clearly more organised on both attack and defence from set play. Thus they had better go forward (Sexton and Aki had it all over Barrett and Havili) – while we had individual athletes (ASavea AIoane and WJordan). And the MOM was Beirne for his breakdown disruption.
        • gsays 10.1.1.1

          17 July 2022 at 9:10 am

          It was shocking, the amount of AB passes, Smith included, that went above the shoulder, behind the shoulder, below the knee…

          There were very few players running onto the ball and catching it at pace – a la league.

          Far too many handling errors.

          Cane still looks a little underdone for test rugby.

          Then there are some selection issues, too many players playing out of their position and a roster that looks to be creaking with age.

          Great performance from Ireland, their competitiveness at the breakdown and the never say die attitude even with the occasional momentum swing.

          Congrats to Andy Farrell, Johnathon Sexton, coaches and players for their series win.
    • Mac1 10.2

      17 July 2022 at 12:00 am

      Some parallels in winning both in rugby and politics:

      1. It's not about hair styles, or posturing.

      2. Choose a wise and charismatic leader as captain. Appoint good selectors who in turn should select good team players.

      3 Get good advice and have a plan B. If plan B doesn't work, then going back to plan A probably won't either.

      4, Safe hands. Don't drop the ball. Keep the opposition pinned well in their half. It's only a game of two halves if you are losing!

      5. Discipline and commitment. Turn up, practise, maintain fitness.

      6. Support, encourage, have self belief. Never underestimate the opposition.

      7. Revisit your strategies, and try to please your fans. The role of the commentators and writers is fairest when neutral. While the referee is fair, learn and play by the rules. The public can be fickle, but you need their money, support and attendance.

      8. Remember you will lose eventually. That's the time to relearn 1-7.
      • Macro 10.2.1

        17 July 2022 at 12:07 pm

        As you well know Mac, all failures on the sporting field are down to the government.
        • Mac1 10.2.1.1

          17 July 2022 at 12:47 pm

          And business confidence will plummet, domestic abuse will rise and Mac1 will celebrate his fourth generation Irishness, to the dismay of his walking companions this morning.

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