Open mike 16/09/2023

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 16th, 2023 - 96 comments
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96 comments on “Open mike 16/09/2023 ”

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  1. Tony Veitch 1
    16 September 2023 at 9:21 am

    A funny but sad story about the election – and the appalling level of understanding of some voters.

    I drive uber 2 nights a week. I always ask my passengers if they intend to vote, and urge them to do so if they say they don’t.

    Sometimes this leads to a political discussion, though I never push it.

    Well, I had one young fellow tell me he intended to vote for Act, and when I asked why, he said, in all seriousness:

    “Because David Seymour is going to make crate day a public holiday.”

    After I’d corrected my steering, I tried, successfully I hope, to persuade him that just wasn’t so!

    Crikey, we need civic classes in NZ schools.

  2. SPC 2
    16 September 2023 at 9:35 am

    The graph comparing the 4 nations shows 3 of the same rising pattern and the other ….

    • In 2019, the US top 10% captures 45% of the national income, close to half of it.
    • Australia and New Zealand remain significantly more equal than their North American counterparts, with the top 10% capturing respectively 35% and 37% of the national income in 2019.
    • In all four countries, we see declining labor compensation (ie wage) as a share of national income, and this decline does not reflect an increase in self-employment. Instead, corporate profits have surged.

    https://wid.world/news-article/whats-new-about-inequality-in-australia-canada-new-zealand-and-the-united-states/

    • mikesh 2.1
      16 September 2023 at 2:12 pm
      • In all four countries, we see declining labor compensation (ie wage) as a share of national income, and this decline does not reflect an increase in self-employment. Instead, corporate profits have surged.

      If national income has increased labour's (proportional) share may have decreased, even if wage levels have remained the same. Just a thought.

  3. pat 3
    16 September 2023 at 9:59 am

    For some well reasoned analysis of the situation as it is…not how we wish it to be.

    https://www.pundit.co.nz/content/what-is-prefu-2023-really-telling-us

    "What the PREFU is saying to the Minister of Finance after the election, is that the books are not in too bad a position (providing you have not promised anything stupid), but always – always – you will be under fiscal pressure. And you may have to deal with unexpected shocks."

    ….and remembering that the risks are all to the downside.

    • SPC 3.1
      16 September 2023 at 10:19 am

      Thus the folly of poorly costed (not so budget neutral) changes, and especially to raid the money for response to weather events.

      And using foreign money (buy up of $2m+ homes) in the package is by definition inflationary.

      • pat 3.1.1
        16 September 2023 at 10:25 am

        "The Treasury gives little guidance as to the particularities of the current pressures (other than the implications that politicians always want to reduce taxes and increase spending). Clearly the war resulting from the Russian invasion of Ukraine is among the big impacts on the world economy. China’s difficulties may be yet to come.

        However, what I don’t think we have appreciated sufficiently is the impact of the Covid pandemic and the measures taken to reduce deaths. They had a substantial immediate economic impact – you can see it in the PREFU. But that is still unwinding three years later. It would be naive to think that those economic measures were a free lunch and almost as naive not to think about having to pay for the lunch. Trade-offs are central to economic management as the next government – whoever it may be – will find, even if in the heady days of election campaigning trade-offs are largely ignored."

        worth repeating…"whoever it may be".

        • SPC 3.1.1.1
          16 September 2023 at 10:43 am

          It's not so much the policies in response to the pandemic, but the amount pumped through banks for property loans (and unrelated to new builds at that) 2020-2021.

  4. Anker 4
    16 September 2023 at 10:14 am

    https://youtu.be/0nXYwqsEKsU?si=s-7bdzce91Eg0Oeu

    This is a very chilling clip of what happened in Albert Park on 25th March. It is put together by Lesbian visibility and the voice over is by two of the Marshalls (one who had water thrown on her, was out in a head lock, tripped up and kicked. The other Marshall was a 69 year old woman (not the woman who was repeatedly punched in the face).

    Meanwhile on another planet the Greens were proclaiming it was all trans pure joy.

    • Shanreagh 4.1
      16 September 2023 at 8:43 pm

      [deleted]

      [I’ve deleted your post because here we are again with me having to use my time chasing you up on moderation stuff. This sentence was the problem “the person who attacked the elderly woman, last I heard, was getting a discharge without conviction”. You provide no evidence for this assertion, and a quick google tells me that his lawyer had applied for a discharge without conviction but I cannot find any evidence that this has been granted. NZH says the sentencing/conviction hearing date hasn’t been set yet. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/crime/posie-parker-protest-activist-pleads-guilty-to-punching-elderly-woman-at-heated-auckland-trans-rights-protest/A5RG2HY2TJFLFKAP4OT7JLGIGU/

      There is so much fact free bullshit on the issue of what happened at Albert Park, from both sides, I’m not willing to let this happen on TS. I want us to lift our game on evidence based debate in this area.

      From now on, if you want to make any claims of fact about KJK, LWS, or anything to do with aspect of the sex/gender wars in NZ, please provide evidence at the time you make the claim. As always, evidence is an explanation in your own words, supporting quotes and links. – weka]

      • weka 4.1.1
        16 September 2023 at 9:25 pm

        mod note.

        • Shanreagh 4.1.1.1
          17 September 2023 at 10:03 am

          I accept I did not link to the quote re the application for a discharge. Sorry Weka…

          • weka 4.1.1.1.1
            17 September 2023 at 10:36 am

            You’re still not getting it. The problem wasn’t a lack of link, it was that you grossly misrepresented the situation. Basically you made some shit up on a highly contentious topic. You claimed that the assaulter was getting a discharge without conviction, when in fact no decision has been made about this. You’re really close to getting a long ban, because I am sick of going over these things.

    • Patricia 2 4.2
      16 September 2023 at 9:34 pm

      Anker – and that's why many older women I know don't plan to vote this year. Can't bring themselves to vote for NACT / Greens etc but feel Labour has let them down badly.

      • weka 4.2.1
        16 September 2023 at 9:39 pm

        This is incredibly frustrating. Yes, the sex/gender issues are not good. But there are other ways to deal with this than handing the election to National and Act, who will most certainly act to harm women in multiple ways. In addition, this will make it harder to address the issues around women's sex based rights. Because the election is so tight, not voting in this election is a defacto vote for a RW government.

        • Belladonna 4.2.1.1
          17 September 2023 at 11:42 am

          Unfortunately, many women believe that handing the election to Labour/Greens will also act to harm women in multiple ways. As they will take an election win as implicit approval to continue to implement their current pro-trans policy agenda without giving any regard to the protection of very hard-fought-for women's rights.

          The explicit support from multiple GP and Labour MPs for the trans protest at the PP event in Auckland, AND their refusal to condemn the violence which ensued – makes this situation quite clear.

          While the RW may, indeed, have worse longer term consequences for women's rights – the short term outcome looks considerably less threatening than the full-scale' anyone can self-declare as a woman' platform from the Left.

          • weka 4.2.1.1.1
            17 September 2023 at 12:44 pm

            it's not longer term consequences though. Seymour is talking about draconian welfare reform. It will impact worst on women, as always. That's just one example. Housing, employment law and wage rates, these are all women's issues.

            As they will take an election win as implicit approval to continue to implement their current pro-trans policy agenda without giving any regard to the protection of very hard-fought-for women's rights.

            The explicit support from multiple GP and Labour MPs for the trans protest at the PP event in Auckland, AND their refusal to condemn the violence which ensued – makes this situation quite clear.

            yes, I'm aware of this view, but it's superficial imo. There are two ways that gender ideology has been pushed back at political, legislative, policy and NGO levels. One is by a serious conservative backlash eg in the US, the other is by progressives working over the long term to make changes eg the UK.

            When women choose the conservative route, they are playing with fire and putting many, many more women at risk than are currently at risk from self ID in NZ. We still have other ways of working on this issues in NZ. A L/G/TPM government won't stop those other ways and in fact make them much more likely to succeed. We need progressive solutions to GI, not regressive, reactionary ones.

            Do you honestly think that the conservatives will stop at this? Or the conspiracy groups if it comes via NZF?

            • Belladonna 4.2.1.1.1.1
              17 September 2023 at 6:57 pm

              Do you honestly think that the conservatives will stop at this? Or the conspiracy groups if it comes via NZF?

              TBH I don't know. But I suspect that on the current political trajectory we're going to have a chance to find out.

              Realistically, there is nothing that Labour can do about this. Any policy change they might make is going to be seen as too little, too late; and as an election bribe, rather than an trustworthy commitment. Hipkins lost this battle in the eye of public opinion when he fumbled the "What is a woman?" question.

              The GP have made it very, very clear that they have no desire to roll back anything about their political stance on this issue – and indeed double down on it.

              I do think equating the National Party (even with ACT involvement) with the hard conservative right in the US is a bridge too far. And, ignores ACTs socially liberal philosophy. They are probably the party in parliament least likely to be tied to any religious ideology.

              • weka …
                17 September 2023 at 7:17 pm

                It's not that Nact are the same as the US religious conservative politics, I was simply pointing out that there are two different pathways available to NZ women and the conservative one is dangerous. Some GC women are acting as if it's the only option, it's not.

                What we need is for the left and centre right to change their position on GI. Because that will give us progressive and liberal policy and law rather than regressive. If it's left to the likes of Winston Peters or Luxon, we will get regressive and a door opening to worse.

                Peters probably genuinely believes in single sex spaces, but it's significant that the NZF priorities list has no women's policies in it other than the GI one.

                Act want to remove income support from drug addicts and remove privacy rights from disabled people on benefits. It's straight from the Paula Bennett playbook and Seymour is dog whistling NZ's bigots. He can't do that on women because we have too many women in positions of power here and too many Act voters that wouldn't put up with it. But he's doing it to Pasifica people.

                There is nothing social liberal about any of that. If we're going to call GI a religious ideology, we should probably call Act's version of libertarianism a religious ideology too.

                • Belladonna …
                  17 September 2023 at 8:18 pm

                  Well, yes, and we can call the Green Party doctrine religious ideology as well. You can call anything religious ideology – but it doesn't really help debate.

                  [NB: I did not describe GI as a religious ideology]

                  And, the tide in gender identity politics in the UK only really reversed (or began to reverse) when the SNP was threatened with a swingeing defeat at the polls (i.e. their constituency walked away from them). I don't see that as "progressives working over the long term to make changes". I see it as the same kind of electoral defeat the Left is courting in NZ.

                  • weka …
                    17 September 2023 at 10:05 pm

                    The shift in UK Labour from TWAW to 'actually, we need to think about women's rights too' is from a long campaign by Labour members, MPs, and grass roots feminists. There have definitely been other events eg the Tavistock whistleblowers, various court cases, the MSM, what happened with the SNP, KJK and LWS and so on. But to get the buy in from liberals you have to have liberal arguments. It's progressives that have done that with Labour. And yep, it's in the context of Labour realising that it might cost them the next election, but again, that's the long campaign.

                    In NZ, we're not there yet. There are some people, ill advised imo, who are trying to bring the issues up this election (SUFW, the Women's Party), but the risk is that it costs the left the election, which from a left pov obviously is catastrophic. If the idea is that a term in opposition will force Labour and the GP to change their minds while the right are pushing back trans rights, I cannot see how this will change their minds.

                    What might change their minds is the large numbers of L and GP members and voters who don't believe that men should be in women's sport, and who understand the need for single sex spaces. But it takes time, care and process to make that change.

                  • weka …
                    17 September 2023 at 10:06 pm

                    [NB: I did not describe GI as a religious ideology]

                    ok, so when you said Act were the least religiously ideological, were you talking about Christianity rather than GI?

          • Tabletennis 4.2.1.1.2
            17 September 2023 at 4:21 pm

            Belladona – I've to agree with your prediction. Replacing of the word women by so called ‘gender neutral’ language such that – women – no longer exist as a sex-based rights group. So you’ll get e.g. people’s wages, people’s housing rights and people’s employment’s rights.
            And the more government regulations are non-specific the more employers/NGO make their own interpretations of the laws.

            “The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.” ― George Orwell

            • SPC 4.2.1.1.2.1
              17 September 2023 at 4:45 pm

              people’s wages, people’s housing rights and people’s employment’s rights.

              What rights as per wages, housing and employment apply to women and not others, or to others and not women?

      • Shanreagh 4.2.2
        17 September 2023 at 10:18 am

        Yes I know a few as well.

        In the group of professional women I meet with who were/are so concerned about The Greens wealth tax and its affect on single women earlier on, there is a view from Friday's session that none would be voting for the Nats as:

        1 Luxon is perceived to be in it for the status and would do anything to achieve it

        2 His espoused religion (Prosperity Gospels) is perceived to be a big turn-off

        3 He is 'creepy' !!!!!?

        Labour/Hipkins with his bumbling on what is a woman and lack of knowledge on the issues is not held in much higher regard. Though I did get the feeling that the view is that his view is not innate unlike they perceive Luxon's views to be.

        I have tried to encourage them to vote. We discussed the concept of least bad. One was going to vote party vote Labour only as the local Labour candidate is perceived to be anti women, another was going to spoil her vote.

      • Tabletennis 4.2.3
        17 September 2023 at 11:12 am

        Patricia2 – it is frustrating- but I read the current political polling as against Labour/Greens rather than for Nat/Act. Nat leader is not liked by many and the more he gets interviewed the more you see how he tries not to answer questions. And instead tries to play this tape again and again.

        Your alternatives are still TOP and of course the Women's Rights Party who seem to go from strength to strength. They are unlikely to get into parliament but its a clear message to the main parties something very fundamentally has gone wrong for women. Many of them are long time ex- labour and greens members/voters.

        I consider the labour leader a decent person – but he seems to be ill informed on this subject, I assume he gets his info, if he gets it at all, from some very biased people – who seem to keep him away from the concerns of the other side. I've yet to hear him say publicly anything in favour of women's sex based rights or be curious to find out what is going on re the medicalisation of non-conforming teenagers.

        But change will come for sure – and we will slowly work our way to the top to make it happen.

        • Belladonna 4.2.3.1
          17 September 2023 at 7:05 pm

          I read the current political polling as against Labour/Greens rather than for Nat/Act

          Listening to NatRad this evening – Caucus.

          And one of the presenters made the comment (paraphrased) that this was not an election of personalities – that neither of the main leaders had any charisma – and so it came down to believability on economic management. Specifically that this was a Helen Clark election – and the winner (of the debates, and by inference the election), needed to be razor sharp and all over the detail of both their own policies and the opposition ones).

          And, while they didn't feel Luxon fit that bill, they didn't think that Hipkins did, either.

          Resulting in an election campaign which even the commentators are thinking of as lacklustre.

          https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/caucus

          Specific programme from this evening not yet listed – but this is where it will be, when its up.

    • Tabletennis 4.3
      17 September 2023 at 12:11 pm

      Thank you Anker – a very scary watch. Can't image the fear that the women must surely feel up and around the rotondo seeing the crowd getting out of hand, coming towards them and hell band on driving the women out town with pure force.
      Lets hope the police on the 20th September realise that its actually their task to keep the fractions apart.

      • Anker 4.3.1
        17 September 2023 at 7:17 pm

        Thanks Tabletennis. I have all but given up posting on this site, but I do read what is on here a little.

        I refrain from commenting too much, because I recognise that people here are worried about labour losing the election. Its tough fighting a political battle when its not going well

  5. Barfly 5
    16 September 2023 at 10:47 am

    Here's a couple of thoughts –

    The $2 million dollar houses that are to sold to foreigners will be investments or holiday homes very few will be rented therefore total hoiusing capacity will be reduced.

    The NZer's that sell these mansion are mainly going to build/buy a replacement building a replacement mansion building takes capacity away from more needed projects to reduce NZ's significant housing and buying is going to fuel housing inflation

    • ianmac 5.1
      16 September 2023 at 10:53 am

      Barfly. I think they on Thursday night they said that 27% of houses in Queenstown were unoccupied. Maybe when those awful rules about warm safe homes are lifted by Nact, then there will be 27% more houses for rent?

      • Barfly 5.1.1
        16 September 2023 at 11:02 am

        And meanwhile we get this shit

        https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/132937917/queenstown-man-unable-to-get-a-house-to-rent-living-in-a-shack-in-the-bush

        Way short of good enough to be called a shack to me

      • weka 5.1.2
        16 September 2023 at 12:08 pm

        Queenstown has a very high proportion of holiday houses, always has. The rate of unoccupied dwellings will be higher than 27%. So it depends on how it is being defined. Are they excluding holiday houses? Including AirBnb etc?

        • ianmac 5.1.2.1
          16 September 2023 at 12:18 pm

          I think the call from Nact was that having to comply with the "Healthy Homes" rules stopped house owners from renting out but with rules being undone by Nact, there will be no crisis in Queenstown. How kind are Nact!

          • weka 5.1.2.1.1
            16 September 2023 at 12:33 pm

            I have no doubt that the health homes rules prevent some houses being rented. This is a consequence of lifting the standard of living of renters, and agree they're stupid af to think that removing the rules will somehow make things better, especially in a tourist town that allows rentals that are basically slums and lets labourers live on site in a tent.

            One of the issues for Queentown is that holiday houses that were previously available as a seasonal rental eg over the ski season for workers, are now used for AirBnB because the owner makes more money for less wear and tear on the house.

            Much of that comes down to QLDC not being willing to sort it out.

        • Bearded Git 5.1.2.2
          16 September 2023 at 12:47 pm

          Nobody seems to have reliable stats on this….people talk about Wanaka being 40% empty houses most of the year

          • Belladonna 5.1.2.2.1
            16 September 2023 at 6:01 pm

            Based on a very unreliable sample data of 2 families I know living between Wanaka and Auckland. The Wanaka houses are used for long weekends every 2-3 weeks, combined with longer holidays of 1-2 weeks every school holidays & 3 weeks or so over summer.

            So, yes, the houses are vacant for 'most' of the year – but the pattern of vacancy doesn't lend itself to home-rentals. It does (or can) lend itself to Air BnB occupations.

            This is probably the pattern for most people with holiday homes. The old-fashioned idea that you just went to the bach over summer has changed, with modern transport links.

  6. ianmac 6
    16 September 2023 at 10:49 am

    OOps Nicola. From the Newsroom Marc Daalder:

    The National Party's plan to restore interest deductibility for residential landlords could cost as much as $100 million a year more than it anticipated due to rising mortgage rates.

    Another $100mil to account for?

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/nationals-landlord-tax-break-could-cost-100m-more-a-year?utm_source=Newsroom&utm_campaign=daa045f384-Week+In+Review+16.09.2023&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_71de5c4b35-daa045f384-95522477&mc_cid=daa045f384&mc_eid=88a3081e75

  7. pat 7
    16 September 2023 at 11:08 am

    In around 2 weeks the polls will open and currently ALL the options are terrible in various aspects….what is one to do?

    Sadly the (largely western) political class handed control of the economy to the international financiers and are now only able to impact things at the margins, and that control is now so entrenched that any attempt to loosen it will likely result in the cure being worse than the disease.

    Hopium appears the only strategy …..and that is (unsurprisingly) reflected in our so called leaders.

    The 'least bad' option is still a bad option.

    • arkie 7.1
      16 September 2023 at 11:27 am

      I appreciate your dramatic phrasing, and the assessment is largely accurate but there is a fundamental problem; 'least bad' remains better than the rest, and not participating makes the 'more bad' more likely.

      The path ahead will be fraught with difficulties, largely self-inflicted, we can't afford to give up now. I don't particularly believe in accelerationism, or taking the ‘black pill’, Hopium is better for us all. Politics has moved rightward so far that people have lost faith in collective action and this has neutered the organisations that have been advocating for any alternative political economy.

      At the core, we need to realise that politics as it is practised every three years, is not sufficient; that we take care of each other and we can do that whether state wants to assist or not.

      Ultimately, just because something will be difficult and possibly insufficient doesn't make trying to do it less necessary or less worthy.

      • weka 7.1.1
        16 September 2023 at 7:56 pm

        very good arkie, thanks for that.

      • pat 7.1.2
        16 September 2023 at 11:38 pm

        Alternatively it could be considered knowingly supporting something detrimental to society.

        Im sure the rationalisation has been used before.

        • arkie 7.1.2.1
          17 September 2023 at 9:15 am

          Society as it currently functioning IS detrimental to society and the planet. Trying to improve that, even marginally, is still an improvement; keeping the status quo keeps things getting worse.

          It is a sort-of nihilist, teenaged-anarchist sentiment; "Don't vote, it only encourages them" and sure, representative democracy seems to limits our politics to casting a vote every three years, but that is not what all of politics is, it is happening all the time, all around us. Agitate, Educate, Organise! There is no rational reason for inaction, if we don't do anything things will only get worse. That is certainly detrimental to society and the planet.

  8. adam 8
    16 September 2023 at 12:17 pm

    God bless the UAW.

    It's on like Donkey Kong.

  9. Anne 9
    16 September 2023 at 12:25 pm

    Posie Parker has abandoned her trip to NZ on the grounds that "the NZ Police, Border Control and politicians are corrupt and she fears they would not ensure her and her supporters safety." [my bold]

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/498122/posie-parker-cancels-trip-to-new-zealand-over-safety-concerns

    In my view, a further example of her extremist positions we can well do without. We have enough fanatics creating societal damage without importing more of them from elsewhere.

    • Patricia Bremner 9.1
      16 September 2023 at 1:32 pm

      Posy possibly could not raise the fundssurprise

      • Shanreagh 9.1.1
        16 September 2023 at 8:47 pm

        What does this mean? She was asked not to go by her family after NZ police could give no assurances as to safety. Was she to have brought her own police force with her? Is that what the reference to money is about?

        • weka 9.1.1.1
          16 September 2023 at 9:29 pm

          I think it's reasonable to assume that one of the issues was the large fee KJK would have had to pay for private security.

          • Shanreagh 9.1.1.1.1
            17 September 2023 at 10:01 am

            Why do we have to 'assume' anything re $$$ especially when the reasons given were about the fears for her safety from her family. Fears I can see are justified in view of the non- policing that occurred at Albert Park previously. I actually feel that she has a 'civil' right to be here and protected as she was the person assaulted by the tomato sauce thrower, she above all has a greater right to see the operation of justice than many others.

            My opinion is that without her here the issue will slide away into wet bus ticket punishment as it seems likely with the person who assaulted the elderly woman. His solicitors have applied for a discharge without conviction.

            https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/crime/posie-parker-protest-activist-pleads-guilty-to-punching-elderly-woman-at-heated-auckland-trans-rights-protest/A5RG2HY2TJFLFKAP4OT7JLGIGU/

            Is it just controversial women who have to bring or pay for their own policing?

            The police seem to be able to protect people like Julian Batchelor OK but then he is a guy despite all his racist views. Perhaps that is the difference?

            The column by Katrina Biggs gives a 'breath of fresh air' view on the issue of KJM and the cancellation of her trip to NZ.

            https://aboldwoman.substack.com/p/kellie-jay-keen-is-not-coming-to?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=1177996&post_id=137086819&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=wthj9&utm_medium=email

            "As well as feeling disappointed that she wouldn’t be coming, there are many like myself who are devastated that our country has come to this – a handful of loud, lying, hateful, anti-women activists calling the shots with our police force, not to mention with our politicians. If either of the police or politicians exercised even the tiniest bit of professional discernment in their jobs, and unbiasedly listened to gender critical women as well, we may not have come to this pass. Instead, they’ve sold their souls to trans activists, and their minds to the stories trans activists tell. And, here we are."

            • weka 9.1.1.1.1.1
              17 September 2023 at 10:45 am

              Why do we have to 'assume' anything re $$$ especially when the reasons given were about the fears for her safety from her family.

              Because KJK has talked about the costs of providing private security.

              • Shanreagh …
                17 September 2023 at 11:02 am

                So her family's concerns about her safety are dismissed because somewhere, some time she has mentioned private security payments. Private security arrangements are never supposed to take the place of Police in combatting civil unrest. Private security close guard 'their person'. Private security have no role to combat public disorder except when it is afftecting 'their' person and have limited resources to protect even then.

                Only the Police have the right to arrest.

                The idea that a visitor to NZ, especially from another common law country like the UK, having to supply their own army is anathema.

                King John,the Magna Carta and the surrendering ot the ability to tax and raise private armies is all relevant to our democarcy just as it is to the UK.

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Carta

                [no-one in this thread has dismissed KJK’s family’s concern about her safety. In my comment I said that cost was one of the issues. If you are unwilling to listen to and make sense of what people are actually saying, that degrades the debate. 4 week ban for misleading the debate and so soon after being warned about this. – weka]

            • Anne 9.1.1.1.1.2
              17 September 2023 at 6:43 pm

              The police seem to be able to protect people like Julian Batchelor OK but then he is a guy despite all his racist views. Perhaps that is the difference?

              That is absolute bullshit Shanreagh. I can hardly believe that an intelligent woman like yourself could make it. I'm not a huge fan of the police [for historical reasons] but to infer, as I believe you have done, that they disrespect women to the extent that they think them less worthy of protection has no bearing in reality.

    • Molly 9.2
      16 September 2023 at 9:18 pm

      Extremist positions?

      "We have enough fanatics creating societal damage " I agree.

      • weka 9.2.1
        16 September 2023 at 9:28 pm

        do you know how to crop screenshots on your phone? This image would be more readable if it was only the pink/blue bit.

      • Anne 9.2.2
        17 September 2023 at 10:42 am

        My comment re-extremists and fanatics was meant in a general sense and to cover both sides of the Left and Right spectrum. They both raise dangerous barriers in society. Whether or not she set out to do it is open to question, but Posie Parker's presence in NZ and the way she chose to attract attention only served to inflame the tension that already existed between two differing sets of people. To my mind that helps nobody.

        • gsays 9.2.2.1
          17 September 2023 at 3:48 pm

          While far from 'extremist' I find RNZs insistence of describing KJK as an "anti-trans activist" a tad misleading at best. Somehow it is highly unlikely The Disinformation Project will act.

          Sure some of those whose gender is a big deal in their life might be comfortable with this framing. It ignores the wider issue of taking a position against 'professionals' who would seek to medicate or operate on minors to affirm their current identity.

        • Molly 9.2.2.2
          17 September 2023 at 6:31 pm

          "Posie Parker's presence in NZ and the way she chose to attract attention only "

          How exactly was this done, and what did you find so objectionable about it?

    • Molly 9.3
      17 September 2023 at 7:53 am

      KJK has been given copies of rsponses to OIA requests that give insight into the (in) actions of the police at Albert Park:

      https://x.com/SimonRAnderson1/status/1702125388871475422?s=20

      KJK is the MC of #LetWomenSpeak, the majority of time is given to women from each locale to speak – unvetted and uncurated.

      There are four lines KJK says in each #LetWomenSpeak:

      "Women don't have penises.

      Men don't have vaginas.

      Non-binary is a nonsense.

      Transitioning children is profound abuse."

      The fact that any of these sentences can be considered "extremist positions" should indicate the immense power gender ideology has attained in a very short time.

      The latest #LetWomenSpeak from Dublin:

      https://www.youtube.com/live/wV8uTh1Pq7s?si=AjUSZtN6hApiiFQm

      • Shanreagh 9.3.1
        17 September 2023 at 10:46 am

        Why can't we have women speaking? What is so threatening?

        Have the police and the trans community actually listened to what is being said at these gatherings? Some of it is not on the trans issue/s (NB the whole world does not revolve around the trans issues).

        At these gatherings I have heard all sorts of snippets about women's lives around the world and realised that our rights as women is a fragile thing. To me the issues as reported by Molly 17 September 2023 at 7:53 am are uncontroversial.

        Numbers 1 & 2 rely on having a competent grasp of biology which everyone can have. Number 4 goes to the concept of childhood and the roles of parents and society to bring up children so that when our work is done (is it ever?) our children can have the confidence to go ahead in the world making their own decisions. Number 3 is a nonsense as it is framed by anti women protestors but perhaps could be framed as we accept how people want to identify themselves and make no comment as long as it is not illegal or 'frighten the horses'.

        "Women don't have penises.

        Men don't have vaginas.

        Non-binary is a nonsense.

        Transitioning children is profound abuse."

        In NZ. for some reason, we find these views very difficult to grasp.

        When all the dust has settled I would love to read scholarly research on why two countries such as Ireland and NZ have evolved so differently. particulalary interesting is that Ireland was a supplier of many immigrants to NZ. Ireland and Northern Ireland https://www.youtube.com/live/wV8uTh1Pq7s?si=AjUSZtN6hApiiFQm
        had the Let Women Speak go ahead, noisy etc but they did go ahead. Belfast the protestors were positioned a fair distance away and the lines were policed.

  10. Patricia Bremner 10
    16 September 2023 at 1:29 pm

    It is not over.

    Each challenge as to accuracy and veracity of policy opens a few more eyes ears and leads to questions which show politicians' natures positions and flaws.

    Three weeks is a long time in politics.

    I hope someone has told Chris Hipkins about Chris Luxon being a National Secondary School Debate champion. (Another fudge )

    The gap between the party blocks is not that large, that the movement of 40 000 people could sway the election.

    It will be tight, and some seats could throw up some interesting positions.devil

  11. adam 11
    16 September 2023 at 3:10 pm

    'slow motion execution' of Julian Assange.

    The democratic facade is crumbling for any thinking person.

    Must be a few who are happy about that, as they have sat and let the UK and US state to destroy Assange physically and mentally. With the added bonus to put the fear of god up journalist and publishers.

  12. Mike the Lefty 12
    16 September 2023 at 7:00 pm

    Something that caught my eye on Stuff.co.nz today.

    A comparison of all major parties' policies that encompass climate change or the environment.

    If you look through ACT's response to all the questions posed then you could well believe that ACT still think climate change is a myth and a socialist trick.

    Without exception they oppose EVERY initiative that has ever been done to reduce CO2 emissions and climate change, even some that National support (half-heartedly it must be said). ACT's attitude is not just irresponsible, it is downright criminal.

    ACT care only about their own bank balances, nothing else matters. They are a bunch of wankers. We must keep them out of government to have any chance of giving our grandchildren and great grandchildren a planet they can live in.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/climate-news/300956490/the-next-governments-environment-agenda-we-created-a-one-stop-shop-to-compare-parties‘

    • weka 12.1
      16 September 2023 at 10:10 pm

      yep. So many reasons to fight with everything we've got for this election, and Act's position on climate is one of the big ones.

      • adam 12.1.1
        16 September 2023 at 11:33 pm

        Oh I don't know.

        We may get a government that is scared of the people for a change.

        I mean act can say and do what it likes, but if it changes any progress on global boiling then I and many others will make it hard for them to govern.

        Hard for them to do anything really.

        So they can say what they like, but reality is a harsh task master.

        • weka 12.1.1.1
          16 September 2023 at 11:59 pm

          we're already past the point with climate where people should be making it hard for the government to govern. And yet people are largely not acting and many want a RW government. Scared people vote conservative, they don't revolt.

          Another term of a centre left government buys us time to convince more people that we need to build strong community and address climate front on. We can't do that under the right.

  13. joe90 13
    16 September 2023 at 8:24 pm

    Last year the Ford CEO made $21 million and between them the big car companies forked out $5 billion in stock buybacks for wealthy investors.

    Teddy Ostrow

    @TeddyOstrow

    “In their economy, workers live paycheck to paycheck while the billionaires buy another yacht… So we’re gonna wreck their economy cuz it only works for the billionaire class,” says @UAW prez Shawn Fain in Detroit.

    https://twitter.com/TeddyOstrow/status/1702810700563800288

    As the Big Three automakers barrel towards a potential stake from the United Auto Workers (UAW) union, Ford CEO Jim Farley has shared his sentiments about the matter. During a conversation with CNBC Overtime, a seemingly exasperated Farley stated that the UAW’s demands would have resulted in Ford going bankrupt.

    The UAW’s demands include the restoration of defined benefit pensions for all workers, a four-day workweek, and a mid-30% raise, among others, as per a report from The Wall Street Journal. The UAW had initially targeted a 40% increase in wages for its members, as it matched the average salary hike that Detroit automotive executives received over the past four years.

    https://www.teslarati.com/ford-ceo-jim-farley-uaw-proposal-bankruptcy

  14. gsays 14
    16 September 2023 at 8:41 pm

    What a performance.

    Stopping the 10 match streak of the high flying Knights. Warriors put 40 on the board against a worthy opposition. Off to Brisbane next week for a match with the Broncos who supposedly will have home advantage.

    Up da Wahs.

    Still plenty of room on the bandwagon.

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