Open mike 17/06/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, June 17th, 2022 - 85 comments
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85 comments on “Open mike 17/06/2022 ”

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  1. Jester 1
    17 June 2022 at 7:49 am

    These judge's need to get tougher. What a pathetic punishment. That wont stop him doing the same again.

    Nui Kereopa appears for sentence after violent road rage attack on Rotorua's Fenton St – NZ Herald

    • dv 1.1
      17 June 2022 at 8:15 am

      Pay walled.

      • Jester 1.1.1
        17 June 2022 at 6:13 pm

        Bugger! I didn't realise it was pay walled. I had a logon at work so was able to read it. You need to watch the video to get the full effect….he's very aggressive.

    • Nic the NZer 1.2
      17 June 2022 at 8:26 am

      Never understood whats going on with this politically. I thoroughly disagree with prescriptive sentencing legislation like 3 strikes or even anti-smacking, but on the other hand what kind of judge hands out home detention for assault on a child.

      • Mac1 1.2.1
        17 June 2022 at 9:19 am

        I guess a judge who has heard all the evidence and had reports on the offender- that sort of judge. It does raise the question of "Who shall judge the judges?"

        • Nic the NZer 1.2.1.1
          17 June 2022 at 9:50 am

          Plausible explanation. Implies a very poor standard of NZ court reporting which frequently miss-represents the narrative of the case.

          • Mac1 1.2.1.1.1
            17 June 2022 at 12:29 pm

            I had a coffee with a former police prosecutor this morning and raised the issue of monitoring judge's perfomance. He said there were procedures involving reports and correspondence between police and the chief district court judge who has that supervision role. He agreed with me about the judge being in possession of the facts and therefore being in the best place to act fairly. We also agreed that our judiciary is free of political influence with its separation of powers, and that NZ has a very high rating for lack of corruption internationally.

            We also agreed that the trust of the people has to be maintained in our social systems, which have been under great pressure with covid, mandates and things like three waters highighting issue s of trust.

            • Incognito 1.2.1.1.1.1
              17 June 2022 at 12:40 pm

              He was charged with wilful damage and pleaded guilty, AFAIK. Was he charged with anything else?

              Judges don’t make up the charges, for obvious reasons.

              I don’t have access to the linked article (f-ing pay-wall) but it looks like some folks are going off on a half-arsed tangent because they don’t have a clue either what they’re talking about.

            • Blade 1.2.1.1.1.2
              17 June 2022 at 2:33 pm

              https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300383667/judge-in-oranga-tamariki-case-rebukes-senior-judges-over-intervention

              I was told by a court employee that judges attend cultural diversity courses.

              I have no proof of that, but this link below MAY point in that direction

              https://www.lawsociety.org.nz/news/lawtalk/lawtalk-issue-939/cald-parties-before-the-employment-relations-authority/

              This ruling doesn't surprise me.

              • Mac1 …
                17 June 2022 at 4:15 pm

                Thanks, Blade. Do you have an opinion on any of this?

                • Blade …
                  17 June 2022 at 4:26 pm

                  Good question? Let me think on it. Although I will start by saying I agree generally with what you have written:

                  ''We also agreed that our judiciary is free of political influence with its separation of powers, and that NZ has a very high rating for lack of corruption internationally.''

                  • Blade …
                    17 June 2022 at 11:29 pm

                    I'm well known on this blog for having major issues with Maoridom. I think as time has gone on white guilt over past wrongs to Maori and Maori activism behind the scenes has lead to rationality flying out the window. It seems to me it's a given that anything involving Maori is subject to circumspect oversight by government organisations and MSM. This allows a culture of exceptions for Maori that can supersede the laws of our land or accepted conventions when Maori consider their culture is at risk. In the case above regarding the judges, the fact Pakeha people where bringing up a Maori child was one factor for what was called a'' breach of judicial independence”

                    Another example that may be worth considering. Willy Jackson is now the Minister Of Broadcasting. But I haven't heard the media ask if he has relinquished all connections with Maori media or other interests that may be in conflict with his new portfolio. If he was a National Party member the media would be all over him like a rash.

                    • RedLogix …
                      18 June 2022 at 12:06 am

                      I'm well known on this blog for having major issues with Maoridom.

                      I would suggest you reconsider. It is not Maoridom you should have issue with. Every culture has both it's strengths and weaknesses – and it has been long been my contention here that the polyglot cultures that make up our society would serve us all well if we opened our eyes to our diverse strengths and helped each walk away from their failings.

                      In my experience there is a great deal non-Maori NZ can and should learn from those aspects of the Maori world that evolved here before us, that observed and absorbed much knowledge of landscape, wildlife and our raw inner spiritual nature – unencumbered by the intense materialism of modernity.

                      While this world view challenges us – it is not confronting. Most mature people can respect and connect with it to the degree that makes sense for them. It is a process we can welcome.

                      What you are reacting against something altogether distinct. It is a radical political movement that is appropriating this deep culture for another purpose.

                    • Robert Guyton …
                      18 June 2022 at 9:21 am

                      "the laws of our land or accepted conventions"

                      These must remain unchanged, unchallenged, undisputed, yes?

                      Most especially, by Maori.

                      Even though their history and culture springs from different "laws of the land or accepted conventions".

                      There must be no challenge! We will not bend!

                      Are you with me, Brothers!

                      /sarc

                    • Blade …
                      18 June 2022 at 9:58 am

                      When Labour lose the election next year, Robert, it's obvious you will have no idea why. But I'm sure some great /sarc will be had for all to enjoy on this blog. Read the article first. Notice all the ''no comments?” I bet when the case is not before the court there will still be ''no comment.''

                      ''The Guidelines for Judicial Conduct 2019 state that judicial independence is a “cornerstone of our system of government in a democratic society and a safeguard of the freedom and rights of the citizen under the rule of law”.

                      The independence of the judiciary from the legislative and executive arms of government is “fundamental to the constitutional balance under the Constitution Act 1986 as well as to the principle of legality which underlies it and the rights and freedoms organised by the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990.”

                      Judge Callinicos :

                      ''If there are concerns about such conduct, then there is an appropriate avenue for how they be addressed. Intruding into the part-heard live case is not one of them,”

                      Now let's hive off ( no pun intended). You wrote:

                      ''These must remain unchanged, unchallenged, undisputed, yes?Most especially, by Maori.''

                      See, Robert, to challenge something, you first have to know what you are challenging. The example I'm about to give is still quite common in Maoridom. Not that you would have a clue because you are ignorant of such things.

                      This is from Willie Jackson’s former wife Moana Maniapoto:

                      Quote:

                      ''Back then, Willie had a short attention span. No idea about the Treaty either. I tried to break it down for him once, as we drove from Rotorua to Auckland.

                      “Repeat back to me what I just said.” He’d give me a blank look, shrug, then laugh. Hopeless.''

                      https://e-tangata.co.nz/comment-and-analysis/moana-maniapoto-the-willie-jackson-i-know/

  2. Ad 2
    17 June 2022 at 8:53 am

    How is it even possible that Efeso Collins backed by the Labour Party is only equal to three centre right mayoral candidates?

    That means that if only one of those centre right candidates drops out and their support redistributes to the other two, Efeso's campaign gets in trouble fast.

    Tempting as it is to complain that Collins' campaign is run by a set of young policy wonks with no money and no fucking attack genes between them, the more basic problem is that Leo Molloy is making the running in the mainstream media and already got many key billboards up.

    Hey Efeso, wake the hell up.

    • Jimmy 2.1
      17 June 2022 at 9:04 am

      Imagine if two of the right candidates had dropped out!

      • Ad 2.1.1
        17 June 2022 at 9:12 am

        Molloy has a great fundraising team and seasoned campaign players.

        He will pull away from the other centre-right ones pretty soon.

    • Blade 2.2
      17 June 2022 at 9:46 am

      Good point, Ad. I thought this race may get interesting. But as Mikey said this morning, whoever wins will only have the support of a very low percentage of Aucklanders who bothered to vote.

      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/auckland-mayoral-poll-nothing-separating-four-candidates-on-the-left-and-right/3V4JJQPFNOFLOIPDI3KUDZHFN4/

    • Sacha 2.3
      17 June 2022 at 9:47 am

      Ad, there are these things called links, to the article you are reading/listening to. Please use them.

    • Stephen D 2.4
      17 June 2022 at 11:25 am

      If anybody believes in the accuracy of a Curia/Taxpayers Union poll, I have a harbour bridge to sell them.

      • Ad 2.4.1
        17 June 2022 at 2:40 pm

        Only a month a go people here were saying all the polls are wrong, Labour's great, Poto Williams is doing a fine job, no need to change anything.

        Nec minnit, major shakeup.

        Our PM can read better than the blind-left.

        • aom 2.4.1.1
          17 June 2022 at 5:21 pm

          So was it that Poto Williams wasn't doing a good job or was it orchestrated public clamour that led to the reshuffle? Thought you had been around long enough to know how political attacks work.

          • Ad 2.4.1.1.1
            17 June 2022 at 6:13 pm

            The view of the Prime Minister is that she had "lost the narrative".

            Poto Williams was doing a shit job so she was fired.

            I've been around long enough to know when the Prime Minister's judgement is superior to those of her erstwhile supporters.

    • Maurice 2.5
      17 June 2022 at 11:34 am

      So which ever candidate takes the Mayoral position – three quarters of the voters do not support them?

      • Sacha 2.5.1
        17 June 2022 at 12:17 pm

        Each Councillor has the same vote as the Mayor. The overall lean of the governing body is more important than its figurehead.

        • Maurice 2.5.1.1
          17 June 2022 at 1:54 pm

          (G)ough! (G)ough!

          Yet the wrong Mayor can bring a whole Council – not to mention the complete city – in to ridicule.

          • Sacha 2.5.1.1.1
            17 June 2022 at 1:59 pm

            Ridicule is minor compared with what the wrong PM can wreak.

            • Maurice 2.5.1.1.1.1
              17 June 2022 at 2:11 pm

              Are we now recognising just how far down the rabbit hole poor ole NZ has gone?

              • In Vino …
                17 June 2022 at 7:55 pm

                Not NZ – just many of the right wing. Including groundswell. Way down that rabbit hole.

  3. Blade 3
    17 June 2022 at 10:14 am

    Mikey v Robbo.

    Some points:

    1- Mikey predicts a possible double dip recession.

    2- Robbo says, predictions, predictions.

    3- $45million on consultants for light rail.

    4- $337,000 to cut a ribbon to open Transmission Gully.

    https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/mike-hosking-breakfast/audio/grant-robertson-finance-minister-says-gdp-drop-is-a-sign-of-a-difficult-2022/

    • Nic the NZer 3.1
      17 June 2022 at 11:15 am

      Let us know who wins and moves onto the final!

      • Blade 3.1.1
        17 June 2022 at 12:17 pm

        Please excuse my sarcasm. I frame things in the way most on this blog perceive it. If Mikey is involved it must be a slug feast. But it wasn't. Seemed like a reasonable interview to me.

        Any comments about the points raised? No, thought not.

        • Nic the NZer 3.1.1.1
          17 June 2022 at 12:29 pm

          Oh sorry, they looked like facts to me not recons. In that case,

          1&2 probably things they would say. 3&4 your probably miss-representing what was purchased for effect.

          • Blade 3.1.1.1.1
            17 June 2022 at 2:11 pm

            Points aren't facts. Deflect, deflect.

            • Nic the NZer 3.1.1.1.1.1
              17 June 2022 at 2:22 pm

              Real Madrid won the European Cup Final over Liverpool for 2022 by a margin of 1 point to 0 – Fact.

              This was mostly due to their superior deflection – Opinion.

              Though having done the research (e.g read the original headline) I can confirm that you have miss-represented in your point 3 – Fact.

              • In Vino …
                17 June 2022 at 8:01 pm

                Blade: you say, "I frame things in the way most on this blog perceive it."

                I think you might be overdoing something there. Presumption, for a start.

                I also think some on this site see you as a loquacious troll, and think it better not to feed you.

                (But occasionally limits are surpassed..)

                • Blade …
                  17 June 2022 at 10:48 pm

                  I don't know why, I just argue my point. Rarely do I start the nasty stuff. Blog trolls do that. Of course I have to answer them, hence I rack up some miles. But you already know that. Talking of loquacious…I enjoy some of the debates that go on and on and on. It's very interesting, sometimes I could add something to them, but I don't because it's all commentary and conjecture to me. I like to get straight to the core of an issue and suggest ideas and a different perspective preferably based on real life experiences…and talkback radio.

        • Robert Guyton 3.1.1.2
          17 June 2022 at 8:06 pm

          "Mikey is involved, it must be a slug"

          Judicious editing reveals so much 🙂

  4. logie97 4
    17 June 2022 at 11:05 am

    Is it appropriate for an executive of a large corporate (bank) to get down and dirty in expressing his political views? Twice now I have seen snippets from a former prime minister on primetime news bulletins on Covid issues. Perhaps it would be more appropriate for him to comment on and justify the huge excessive profits and dividends the bank he assists in running and the affects on the economy.

    Calls to mind his lack of nous when he was interviewed by Paul Henry about "having a real kiwi as our next Governor General" by just smiling. (Hon Anand Satyanand – born and raised in Auckland was GG at the time)

    • lprent 5.1
      17 June 2022 at 11:35 am

      Do try to use the Reply function. I think that this relates to comment 3.

      • Drowsy M. Kram 5.1.1
        17 June 2022 at 1:50 pm

        Sorry lprent, commenting from a different computer, and couldn't access/see my reply (to Blade @3) after editing. Had to re-enter my name and got that wrong as well!

    • Blade 5.2
      17 June 2022 at 12:21 pm

      Mikey and Robbo's points exactly…and it's a worry. Adrian Orr and the RB are having some shockers. Maybe we need Brash back?frown

    • RedLogix 6.1
      17 June 2022 at 12:36 pm

      It will be interesting to see how far The Maori Party can go before other groups decide they need race based representation too.

      • Robert Guyton 6.1.1
        17 June 2022 at 12:52 pm

        Other groups with a treaty relationship?

        • RedLogix 6.1.1.1
          17 June 2022 at 1:28 pm

          Doesn't everyone have a treaty relationship?

          • Robert Guyton 6.1.1.1.1
            17 June 2022 at 2:03 pm

            Yes. That relationship is binary; between Maori and non-Maori.

            It's special and specific.

            Not homogenous.

            • Incognito 6.1.1.1.1.1
              17 June 2022 at 2:31 pm

              Nope, that’s just one but domineering interpretation, but there are others that challenge that binary dualism, notably Anne Salmond, e.g. https://www.newsroom.co.nz/ideasroom/anne-salmond-time-to-unteach-race.

              • RedLogix …
                17 June 2022 at 2:43 pm

                An excellent link. I'm going to have to read that one a couple of times to get the full import of it.

                • Incognito …
                  17 June 2022 at 2:51 pm

                  You’re welcome. There are other interpretations of the Treaty but these don’t suit the (dominant) partisan narratives. For someone with no prior knowledge, and thus much less bias/prejudice, it is not too hard to level them and compare them on their relative merits of persuasion and reasoning. Salmond has been at it for years and I’d say it is a lifetime project of hers, professionally as well as personally, because she’d make no real distinction between the two, I’d imagine.

              • solkta …
                17 June 2022 at 6:49 pm

                Nothing new there about 'race'. Anthropology and Sociology 101 from the 90s. What i take out from that article is that lawyers are intellectually lazy.

                'Race' is not and has never been a Maori concept. From the very early days some Pakeha men chose to live with Maori as Maori. They were welcome for the technology they could share. These men were called Pakeha Maori by Maori. They took Maori wives and their children were know as Maori. Pakeha called these children half-caste.

                Maori is a collection of related ethnic groups not a 'race'. Individual Maori do not have any more rights than any other New Zealander, but each Iwi as a collective has specific rights as guaranteed by their agreement with the Crown.

                • solkta …
                  17 June 2022 at 7:14 pm

                  In terms of unteaching 'race', it seems to me the first step would be to change the name of the Race Relations Conciliator. It is not rational to try and tell people that 'race' does not exist while at the same time saying we need to manage relations between 'races'.

                • RedLogix …
                  17 June 2022 at 7:27 pm

                  'Race' is not and has never been a Maori concept.

                  They sure seem happy to invoke it when it suits them though. But yes – I agree pre-European Maori would have had no use for the concept given their radical geographic isolation.

                  Maori is a collection of related ethnic groups not a 'race'. Individual Maori do not have any more rights than any other New Zealander, but each Iwi as a collective has specific rights as guaranteed by their agreement with the Crown.

                  An interesting para. That seems to me to be the reasonable approach – recognising that it was not Maori as a race, culture or even a people at the time of the ToW – but a fractious, polyglot collection of migrant groups who shared a Pacific heritage and not much else.

                  And in 1840 the iwi had just come off the back of 40 years of internal genocide that saw them kill off almost 40% of their own population. This was not a united society, culture or people in any sense. It was a dozen or so large family groups who all distrusted and hated each other. Their surviving leaders were concerned more than anything else to bring the mayhem to an end and to protect what resources remained to them. To that end the offer of citizenship in the empire of the global superpower of the era – and the legal protections it promised – was the deal of the century.

                  Erasing the Musket Wars from our history is no accident – it obscures the real motives and intentions around what happened at Waitangi. It makes as much sense as for example explaining why the UN was formed – while pretending WW2 had not just happened.

                  And in this light – it can be argued that by becoming citizens of the British Empire they gave away any claim to be indigenous at the same time.

                  • solkta …
                    17 June 2022 at 7:34 pm

                    The musket wars have not been erased from history. Every Treaty education thing i have ever encountered, and there has been quite a few, has outlined the musket wars and the unifying aspect of the Treaty. Perhaps if you did a Treaty education course you could stop talking such twaddle.

                    • RedLogix …
                      17 June 2022 at 7:49 pm

                      Why then would the several deeply respected kaumatua who explained all this to me be talking 'twaddle'?

                      I spent a significant fraction of the 80's re-engaging with my paternal Maori heritage. And in that period had the privilege to get to know some remarkable elders – in the true globally understood sense of that word.

                      I have never written to those experiences for a couple of reasons, one is that the whole story is not mine to tell; it involves lots of other people. Secondly events happened that I cannot properly do justice to with my own words. And finally this is a political forum – not a spiritual one.

                      But suffice to say that sometime during that period as that authentic generation of Maori, whose roots were firmly located in their local landscapes and peoples, passed on – I then watched as their heritage was appropriated by a new class of university educated radicals whose goal was no longer healing and unity – but power and vengeance.

                      So maybe it is all twaddle to you.

                    • solkta …
                      17 June 2022 at 8:04 pm

                      You make a claim that the musket wars have been erased from history and then start talking about personal discussions with kaumatua from the 80s. I'm going to leave it here as i have no interest in your bad faith discussions. You can have the last word if you want.

                    • RedLogix …
                      17 June 2022 at 8:35 pm

                      Every Treaty education thing i have ever encountered, and there has been quite a few, has outlined the musket wars and the unifying aspect of the Treaty.

                      But when I outline exactly the same you call it 'twaddle'?

                      Contradictory much?

                      Nonetheless I would argue that the significance and historic context of the Musket Wars does get downplayed in the public domain. While the Land Wars later in the century – with a far lower death toll – are constantly played as the colonial crime of the century. It is not hard to detect a selective version of history being played here, and the political agenda it serves.

                  • joe90 …
                    17 June 2022 at 8:11 pm

                    And in 1840 the iwi had just come off the back of 40 years of internal genocide that saw them kill off almost 40% of their own population

                    Now do Europe's half-millenia long orgy of bloodshed. From the Italian wars, the French wars of religion, the Thirty Years War ( the population in some areas of Germany declined by between 30% and 66%), The Napoleonic Wars (the population of France declined by an estimated 10%), various French/Anglo/Spanish/Prussian/Russian tiffs, assorted uprisings and revolutions and the conquest of Algeria through to the mechanised killing of the 20th C.

                    Fuck, Eastern Europe's still at it.

                    • RedLogix …
                      17 June 2022 at 8:18 pm

                      Yup. No-one is standing on any moral high ground here, and nor was I claiming any. Hell I even made explicit reference to WW2.

                      But the point to be made is that these catastrophes have a chastening effect – and in their immediate aftermath there is often a period when we are open reform and progress. As there will be when this war in Europe finally concludes.

                      In particular there is a moment when we clearly and bitterly understand that disunity and confrontation – which are the cause of all the grief you list – can only be countered by unity, consensus and justice. And we turn out minds to doing better if only for a while.

                • Incognito …
                  17 June 2022 at 9:25 pm

                  I don’t think that many TS readers have done Anthropology and Sociology 101 in the 90s wink

                  The term/concept “race” is often a divisionary tool.

                  What i take out from that article is that lawyers are intellectually lazy.

                  Lawyers are being tasked, or think they are, to codify the Treaty into Law to have (the) force of law. However, the Treaty was never intended to become Law as such. The problem is that once in motion it cannot be walked back by lawyers even if they wanted to.

            • Blade 6.1.1.1.1.2
              17 June 2022 at 2:48 pm

              That's not how some Maori see it. They don't ever want a republic in New Zealand. Many Maori do if you believe some polls. I can hazard a guess which group may have the university education.

              http://www.republic.org.nz/treaty

          • Grafton Gully 6.1.1.1.2
            17 June 2022 at 6:54 pm

            Maori are indigenous they got here first and like other indigenous peoples have rights recognised by UN and endorsed by NZ under the Key government.

    • Mac1 6.2
      17 June 2022 at 12:36 pm

      Given that the PM is not mentioned in the article at all, you might have to be a bit more forthcoming about how her canniness is being shown here?

      • Stephen D 6.2.1
        17 June 2022 at 12:51 pm

        By making Adrian Rurawhe Speaker. He will go list only next year. Leaving a clearish run for Debbie Ngarewa-Packer to win the Māori electorate. Strengthens Te Pati Māori in the House, providing Labour another coalition partner.

        • Mac1 6.2.1.1
          17 June 2022 at 1:00 pm

          Thanks, Stephen D. Certainly arguable so long as Te Pati Māori is seen as a credible and useful coalition partner who are surley more credible than NZF, Labour’s last coalition partner.

        • Sacha 6.2.1.2
          17 June 2022 at 1:47 pm

          That sort of decision is more likely to involve the party's president and strategists.

        • Ad 6.2.1.3
          17 June 2022 at 2:42 pm

          Not a dumb move that.

    • joe90 7.1
      17 June 2022 at 2:11 pm

      Meanwhile, the West is taking a punt on lumbering itself with tens if not hundreds of thousands more early onset dementia patients.

      “Brain fog” has emerged as one of the most debilitating symptoms of long COVID, affecting thousands of people globally, impeding their ability to work and function in daily life.

      Now, a group of Australian scientists believe they are closer to unlocking the mystery behind the lingering neurological condition, which can trigger memory loss, confusion, dizziness and headaches, and leave people grasping to recall everyday words.

      The findings of their study, published this week in Nature Communications, suggest there may be distinct parallels between the effects of COVID-19 on the brain and the early stages of neurodegenerative diseases such as Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s.

      […]

      “What we saw is that they formed very similar amyloid clumps, which are basically just ordered assemblies of protein that are stuck together and considered ‘molecular hallmarks’ of the early stages of neurodegenerative disease,” he said.

      “To cut a long story short, these amyloid plaques are very toxic to the brain cells and we hypothesise that aggregates of SARS-CoV-2 proteins may trigger neurological symptoms in COVID-19 that many of us call brain fog.”

      https://www.smh.com.au/national/australian-researchers-find-parallels-between-alzheimer-s-and-long-covid-brain-fog-20220614-p5atnp.html

  8. Adrian 8
    17 June 2022 at 4:32 pm

    China is about control, and the fact that it has the shittiest vaccine in the world apparently. I saw a blog which I can’t remember the name of a few weeks ago done by a youngish SouthAfrican who divides his time between SA, the States and China and in relation to the latest massacre in the US he said that while the Chinese do not have mass shootings they do have mass stabbings and a lot of them, in fact he had been a witness to more than one. Life in China is very stressful for a lot of people and help is not really that available if physical or mental health is compromised. He showed a quick video of how the police manage such things and it involved a long pole with a half round attachment on the end which can be used to trap an offender on the ground or up against a wall. Probably not as effective against an assault rifle.

    His point was that there is a lot more civil disturbance and dissatisfaction in China than we are made aware of. Hence the need for control, but one day that build up of pressure will bite the political elite on the arse. Not before time either.

  9. Macro 9
    17 June 2022 at 5:44 pm

    Never was much of a fan of VP Mike Pence but the latest Hearing from the Select Committee investigating the 6th Jan attack on the Capitol showed that he not only refused to bend to the corrupt and illegal wishes of a demented Trump and a wild mob that would have killed him had they been able to find him, but carried out his duty and preserved the US from a tyrant, and the democratic process of a republic. If you haven't watched the live showing of the 3 day of the Hearing it is well worth taking the time – 3 hours.

  10. Anne 10
    17 June 2022 at 6:00 pm

    Thanks Macro. My evening viewing sorted. 🙂

    I was reading a summary of events earlier today and noted that Mike Pence showed principle and courage and should be given full credit for doing so.